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HellonEarth84
04-26-2009, 11:58 PM
Everyone says that. Everyone says not to question BB because of his track record.

People seem to forget that a lot of the players BB won those SuperBowls with were drafted by Parcells, not Belichick.

People claim the Pats are 100% accurate in round 1. Not quite. Look at Watson and Maroney. I questioned the Maroney pick over DeAngelo Williams, and ppl said "BB knows what he's doing, theres a reason hes coach and youre not"...well look how that turned out. Also trading up with Green Bay to get Mega Bust Chad Jackson when we couldve stayed in our original spot and drafted a Pro Bowler like Greg Jennings or Brandon Marshall.

Then refusing to give Deion Branch a new contract, and trading him to Seattle. I dont care who that pick turned out to be.... THAT TRADE SINGLE HANDIDLY COST US THAT YEARS SUPERBOWL. We went against Indianapolis with Reche Caldwell, Jabar Gaffney, and a few other terrible receivers who couldnt catch a cold. We still almost won that game. There's no doubt in my mind that if we had Branch, we wouldve beat Indy and went on to win the SuperBowl.

Not to mention how long it's taken BB to upgrade the Linebackers. He's about 2-3 years late on drafting them. Again - potentially cost us the SuperBowl against the Giants. Instead of having a decent LB, we had undrafted bum Eric Alexander losing an easy fumble recovery that couldve won us the game.

Skipping on LaMarr Woodley, Jon Beason, David Harris, to trade that pick to San Francisco. In the long run, we got Jerod Mayo for that pick but also had to pay him A LOT more than we wouldve for those players. and he isnt significantly better. Actually Id rather have Woodley than Mayo to be honest.

anyways...i'm starting to lose faith in BB. Passing up on potentially stud OLB's (Conner Barwin, Clint Sintim, Kruger, Everette Brown, etc) for a career back up in Ron Brace. Very Questionable.

ElectricEye
04-27-2009, 07:51 AM
It sucks come a draft like this but we really can't say anything about it until it stops working.

FlyingElvis
04-27-2009, 12:33 PM
It's easy to be negative when you bend the truth in a way that fits your argument.
Everyone says that. Everyone says not to question BB because of his track record.

People seem to forget that a lot of the players BB won those SuperBowls with were drafted by Parcells, not Belichick.

I'm calling BS on this. Sure, since the first SB was in Bill's second year there were guys on that squad from Parcell's days. But the guy has fielded a winner & playoff contender every season since he took over. If they were good for 3 years and then went back into the tank I could see this argument, but that's not the case. Below is my "evidence" that Bill does, in fact, draft very well. Of course, nobody is perfect (ahem FU Chad Jackson!!) Also keep in mind, not all picks are going to be world beaters. Most of the draft is for depth, and a "good draft" is one that yields 3 starters.

Starters are bolded.

Jerod Mayo
Terrence Wheatley
Shawn Crable
Jonathan Wilhite
Brandon Meriweather
Laurence Maroney
Chad Jackson
Dave Thomas
Garrett Mills
Stephen Gostkowski
Ryan O'Callaghan
Le Kevin Smith
Willie Andrews
Logan Mankins
Ellis Hobbs
Nick Kaczur
James Sanders
Matt Cassel
Vince Wilfork
Ben Watson
Marquise Hill
Cedric Cobbs
Ty Warren
Eugene Wilson
Bethel Johnson
Dan Klecko
Asante Samuel
Dan Koppen
Tully Banta-Cain
Daniel Graham
Deion Branch
Jarvis Green
David Givens
Richard Seymour
Matt Light
J.R. Redmond
Antwan Harris
Tom Brady
Patrick Pass

(draft history pulled from this site (http://insider.espn.go.com/nfldraft/draft/tracker/history?year=-1&round=-1&team=17).)

Notable Parcells draftees: Troy Brown, Willie McGinest, Ted Johnson, Ty Law, Tedy B and Lawyer Milloy.


People claim the Pats are 100% accurate in round 1. Not quite. Look at Watson and Maroney. I questioned the Maroney pick over DeAngelo Williams, and ppl said "BB knows what he's doing, theres a reason hes coach and youre not"...well look how that turned out. Also trading up with Green Bay to get Mega Bust Chad Jackson when we couldve stayed in our original spot and drafted a Pro Bowler like Greg Jennings or Brandon Marshall.

What people? Point them out and I'll show you an idiot. NO team/coach/GM is ever 100% accurate. Anyone who claims otherwise has zero credibility.

Watson and Maroney both have skills but can't stay healthy long enough to ever attain a position we would consider "consistent", so I'll agree they are both misses at their respective draft positions. But you have to be joking if you're really going to use hindsight as evidence.


Then refusing to give Deion Branch a new contract, and trading him to Seattle. I dont care who that pick turned out to be.... THAT TRADE SINGLE HANDIDLY COST US THAT YEARS SUPERBOWL. We went against Indianapolis with Reche Caldwell, Jabar Gaffney, and a few other terrible receivers who couldnt catch a cold. We still almost won that game. There's no doubt in my mind that if we had Branch, we wouldve beat Indy and went on to win the SuperBowl.

Not to mention how long it's taken BB to upgrade the Linebackers. He's about 2-3 years late on drafting them. Again - potentially cost us the SuperBowl against the Giants. Instead of having a decent LB, we had undrafted bum Eric Alexander losing an easy fumble recovery that couldve won us the game.

Not having Branch cost us the SuperBowl . . . speculation. Anyone can play that game b/c there's no way to prove or disprove it. I can say this - as usual Branch missed a bunch of games for Seattle that year. He also would have been gone the next year, so at least the Pats received something for him. I don't think anyone liked losing him, but the business aspect is an unavoidable aspect of the game. He is not now - and never was - worth a 1st round pick, which I think means it was a great trade.

And the LBs potentially cost us the SB against the Giants??? I can't believe anyone would even have the balls to write such nonsense. Unless you project young LBs as solid blockers for Brady. But again, there's no way to prove or disprove such claims.

Skipping on LaMarr Woodley, Jon Beason, David Harris, to trade that pick to San Francisco. In the long run, we got Jerod Mayo for that pick but also had to pay him A LOT more than we wouldve for those players. and he isnt significantly better. Actually Id rather have Woodley than Mayo to be honest.

anyways...i'm starting to lose faith in BB. Passing up on potentially stud OLB's (Conner Barwin, Clint Sintim, Kruger, Everette Brown, etc) for a career back up in Ron Brace. Very Questionable.

I was begging for NE to make a move and get Woodley, so I can't argue that one. LBs in general are a point that I do see. BB seems awfully particular about what he wants, and in the long run we never seem to get any. That is frustrating.

I guess, to sum it all up, I disagree. lol

I'm not losing faith in BB. Chung, Butler and Brace will be solid for a long time and that is all you can ask out of 2nd round picks. There will be at least 2 studs from this class that BB passed on and I'll share your frustration when we find out who. However, hindsight is 20/20.

AntoinCD
04-27-2009, 12:50 PM
I think that is a huge over reaction to a solid draft. First let me say I hate people on TV who come out and say I trust what Belichick does, I trust what Pioli does, I trust what Ozzie Newsome does, I trust what Bill Polian does etc etc. At the end of the day there will be mistakes made and there will be busts. The problem with the Patriots is people expect every pick to be a pro bowler. Watson and Maroney both have ridiculous ability to succeed but for differing reasons haven't so far. Watson is the more frustrating because he could be elite but does concentrate enough on catching the football. Maroney has a few problems ie he is injury prone, dances to the hole and doesn't play in a system which helps his stats(ie throw the ball more and RB by committee). In recent drafts its easy to say that BB is not bringing in anyone who makes an impact but there a very few holes that need filled. Merriweather was taken and only last year did he start to make an impact and he looks very promising, but some people had started to call him a bust. Just as in free agency the Patriots get role players who come in and do what is asked. When we start picking in the top 10(not through a trade) I will start questioning methods But as of now it is working

Bigburt63
04-27-2009, 05:56 PM
Until we have a string of horrible drafts or start to fall apart as a team and organization, I will trust BB and company. We got alot younger and more athletic and alot more deep as a team via this draft. The Maroney/Jackson draft is really the only bad one that I can think of under BB, and don't say the Meriweather draft, none of those guys were going to make that team, we were too stacked at every position.

Nalej
04-27-2009, 06:29 PM
I think that's too much of an over-reaction for the day after the draft.
Let's see how these players turn out. I think Chung and Butler are gonna be big time starters for us.
I do agree though- I wasn't overly impressed with this draft but we'll see how they turn out

HellonEarth84
04-27-2009, 11:25 PM
On the Maroney thing - read his old scouting profiles... most of them list him as "inconsistent...injury prone... not mentally tough... doesnt hit the holes hard"

and that's EXACTLY what he turned out to be.


Same thing happened with Terrence Wheatley last year. Huge injury concerns. Guess what happens the first time he saw significant playing time as a Patriot? Season ending injury.


I'm starting to question the Brandon Tate draft choice now too.

HellonEarth84
04-27-2009, 11:27 PM
also, sorry if I'm being negative or if I sound like a spoiled fan. But realistically, we had a legitimate chance at not only winning 3/4 SuperBowls, but would couldve won 5/7 SuperBowls if not for BB's arrogance (ie. getting rid of Branch, not drafting LBs)

AntoinCD
04-28-2009, 08:37 AM
also, sorry if I'm being negative or if I sound like a spoiled fan. But realistically, we had a legitimate chance at not only winning 3/4 SuperBowls, but would couldve won 5/7 SuperBowls if not for BB's arrogance (ie. getting rid of Branch, not drafting LBs)

possibly we could have won those superbowls but if branch was still here where would moss and or welker be? Against the colts yea we should have won that game but that was just a complete meltdown by a lot of players in the second half and i find it tough to blame the drafting on that. Against the giants it was a miracle play. Sometimes they just happen and nothing can be done. Its easy in my opinion to turn round and say we should have picked marshall or jennings but if it was that obvious at the time why werent they first rounders. The only thing that has to be seen in the next year or 2 is if Crable doesnt work out then there may be problems with the pass rush. Every other position of need has been significantly upgraded in the last few years, including wr even after branch was gone

Babylon
04-28-2009, 04:42 PM
I think they probably tried to do some things and were left at the alter. Myself i would have liked them taking Nicks and then coming back with Everett Brown or Barwin at #34, they then could have drafted some DBs after that.

The problem last year was that front 7 and it looks no better to me right now except for a healthy Adalius Thomas.

Nalej
04-28-2009, 06:27 PM
The problem last year was that front 7 and it looks no better to me right now except for a healthy Adalius Thomas.


Exactly. And R. Brace who I think is already the 2nd best NT on the team.

ElectricEye
04-28-2009, 09:04 PM
Exactly. And R. Brace who I think is already the 2nd best NT on the team.

Not that hard to do with Mike Wright playing out of position at that spot. Still do think it's a pretty nice situational addition though.

TNPatsFan
04-29-2009, 10:31 AM
The Pats have been trying for years now to get a second NT. They have tried Wright, LeKevin Smith, Kenny Smith, Titus Adams, Steve Fifita, Kareem Brown, and others I'm sure I can't think of right now. Brace was a necessary pick even if they are able to sign Wilfork. When the Pats were beating Carolina and Philly in the SB's, they had two big guys in there that they were able to rotate and keep fresh, as well as to line up side by side in short yardage situations. Their D-Line has been missing that ever since they lost Washington and then Traylor.

Splat
04-29-2009, 10:38 AM
Do you know how many fans would kill for this.

http://img148.imageshack.us/img148/7779/belichick1.jpg (http://img148.imageshack.us/my.php?image=belichick1.jpg)

Stop crying.

Borat
04-29-2009, 10:53 AM
Whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa. Holy Jeebus, stop crying. This is why people end up despising your franchise.

I like the Pats. I end up defending them all the time against the haters. But to put on a huge rant like that and claim they won because of Parcells' drafts and not Belichicks is absolutely asinine.

Bigburt63
04-29-2009, 10:57 AM
Granted that some (perhaps even most) of the players from that first SB team were from the parcells/pete carroll era, alot were not. BB and co. cleaned house for the most part, and have had all of their players in the great teams they have assembled since then. Essentially, BB has been successful not because of Parcells or Carroll's players, but because of his own.