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Black Bolt
04-27-2009, 12:16 PM
Kiper company had a field day laughing at the Raiders picks including Michael Mitchell. He said that he could have been taken in the 5th round. Well the Chicago Tribune is reporting that the Bears were going to take him two picks after the Raiders. Does that hurt you feels, Mel? The fact that you are exposed as not doing your homework?

Cunningham
04-27-2009, 12:25 PM
two wrongs don't make a right

Abaddon
04-27-2009, 12:54 PM
two wrongs don't make a right

This.

I'm sure some fool would have drafted Mike Williams if Detroit hadn't.

Scott Wright
04-27-2009, 01:01 PM
two wrongs don't make a right

Exactly, just because there was one more team almost as stupid as the Raiders doesn't make Oakland's pick any better.

PossibleCabbage
04-27-2009, 01:07 PM
"I see you're about to do something stupid, so I'll do something stupid first so you won't be able to!"

What sort of reasoning is that?

Bengals78
04-27-2009, 01:09 PM
"I see you're about to do something stupid, so I'll do something stupid first so you won't be able to!"

What sort of reasoning is that?

Thats usually the reasoning that happens when someone is drunk and their friend is drunk too and doesnt want to be shown up.

killxswitch
04-27-2009, 01:16 PM
Kiper company had a field day laughing at the Raiders picks including Michael Mitchell. He said that he could have been taken in the 5th round. Well the Chicago Tribune is reporting that the Bears were going to take him two picks after the Raiders. Does that hurt you feels, Mel? The fact that you are exposed as not doing your homework?

LOL. Given the way the Bears draft it probably doesn't hurt he feels at all.

kmartin575
04-27-2009, 01:19 PM
The thread should be titled "Proof that draft experts and a senile old fool are breed apart"

This doesn't change the fact that Al Davis is a complete joke.

herschel4heisman
04-27-2009, 01:23 PM
According to Peter King, the Bears were the only team that considered drafting him at that point. Here's what he wrote today on cnnsi:

f. The Mid-American Conference has first-, second- and third-team all-conference teams. Ohio University safety Michael Mitchell did not make any of the three last fall. The Raiders used the 15th pick of the second round on Mitchell.

g. I asked three GMs Saturday and Sunday where they had Mitchell on their boards. One said he had a seventh-round grade. Two said he had a free-agent grade.

h. Mitchell is the highest-drafted player of this decade not to have been invited to the combine.

i. You get the point. The pick of Mitchell, and where he was picked, was greeted with as much incredulity as any pick I remember. The only team clearly in competition for him was Chicago.

Also, Mel Kiper said he talked to 6 teams. 3 said he was a free agent, two thought late rounder and one said he was a pro bowler.

E-Man
04-27-2009, 01:27 PM
There is more proof than a story in the Chicago tribune. The proof is how drafts usually pan out after a few years. The fact of the matter is that the first round usually has half the players as busts, and the rounds after just get higher and higher. The one constant you see however is certain teams getting quality players regardless of the hoopla surrounding their picks. It seems like the Patriots, Steelers, Ravens, Colts, and Titans usually stick to solid boards that aren't usually sexy. Those teams are perennial contenders while other teams end up playing the same game over and over again every April.

BeerBaron
04-27-2009, 01:33 PM
The difference here is that one team is the Raiders. If the Raiders do something, it's a terrible, idiotic, Al Davis has Alzheimer's ******** kind of pick.

Had the Bears have done it, it may still have been considered a reach, but it would nearly have been as **** upon.

Hokie_Pokie08
04-27-2009, 01:42 PM
The difference here is that one team is the Raiders. If the Raiders do something, it's a terrible, idiotic, Al Davis has Alzheimer's ******** kind of pick.

Had the Bears have done it, it may still have been considered a reach, but it would nearly have been as **** upon.

I disagree. This pick would have been frowned upon had any team in the NFL made it (maybe the Pats would get a pass since ESPN loves them), but anybody else would have been viewed as crazy.

nobodyinparticular
04-27-2009, 01:43 PM
This.

I'm sure some fool would have drafted Mike Williams if Detroit hadn't.

Mel Kiper is the one who told everyone he would see them at Williams' Hall of Fame induction... o.0

ThePudge
04-27-2009, 01:45 PM
The difference here is that one team is the Raiders. If the Raiders do something, it's a terrible, idiotic, Al Davis has Alzheimer's ******** kind of pick.

Had the Bears have done it, it may still have been considered a reach, but it would nearly have been as **** upon.

Maybe not in the eyes of the general public, but if the Bears drafted Mitchell at 49 then I group them right there with the Raiders. A monumental reach and the largest I've seen in five years of attending the draft. Keep in mind I go to OU, I like Mitchell and thought he deserved to be drafted. Just a monster reach and would be the same if the Bears had drafted him.

BeerBaron
04-27-2009, 01:48 PM
Maybe not in the eyes of the general public, but if the Bears drafted Mitchell at 49 then I group them right there with the Raiders. A monumental reach and the largest I've seen in five years of attending the draft. Keep in mind I go to OU, I like Mitchell and thought he deserved to be drafted. Just a monster reach and would be the same if the Bears had drafted him.

It wouldn't nearly have been talked about. The Raiders have been on a slippery slope with questionable moves for years and then they reach for a 40 time in the first round, that pick just pushed it over the edge.

Had the Bears have done it, it would have came and went and that would been the end of it unless someone was just specifically talking about their draft.

As a Bears fan, I wouldn't have liked the pick obviously, but to 99.9% of people, if wouldn't have been ripped nearly as badly just because it wasn't the Raiders.

Think about it this way. If the Patriots had done it......genius Bill Bellichick who secretly runs the entire NFL I think.....it probably wouldn't have been ripped.

Mr. Hero
04-27-2009, 01:48 PM
Kiper company had a field day laughing at the Raiders picks including Michael Mitchell. He said that he could have been taken in the 5th round. Well the Chicago Tribune is reporting that the Bears were going to take him two picks after the Raiders. Does that hurt you feels, Mel? The fact that you are exposed as not doing your homework?

And there are also reports that those are the only two teams that would've taken him before the 6th/7th round, so Kiper was right on with the vast majority of the league, in fact only two teams disagreed with him on mitchell. Every team views prospects differently and you know what they say, it only takes one, so I don't think Mitchell is proof that draftniks and GMs view things differently since in this case the draftniks were in agreement with 30/32 GMs.

PalmerToCJ
04-27-2009, 02:02 PM
It wouldn't nearly have been talked about. The Raiders have been on a slippery slope with questionable moves for years and then they reach for a 40 time in the first round, that pick just pushed it over the edge.

Had the Bears have done it, it would have came and went and that would been the end of it unless someone was just specifically talking about their draft.

As a Bears fan, I wouldn't have liked the pick obviously, but to 99.9% of people, if wouldn't have been ripped nearly as badly just because it wasn't the Raiders.

Think about it this way. If the Patriots had done it......genius Bill Bellichick who secretly runs the entire NFL I think.....it probably wouldn't have been ripped.

This is very true. I think the fact that it went along with the DHB pick made people focus on it even more and rightfully so.

nobodyinparticular
04-27-2009, 02:11 PM
Exactly, just because there was one more team almost as stupid as the Raiders doesn't make Oakland's pick any better.

So we're not talking about value here, we're talking about whether the player will be good or not.

Consider that Al Davis wanted to draft Marques Colston in the 3rd round when he wasn't drafted til the 7th. Most people felt it was a reach for the Raiders to take Nnamdi Asomugha in the 1st round. Consider that Mel Kiper's future Hall of Famer Mike Williams is already out of the league. Rod Smith was an undrafted free agent. 32 teams passed on All-Pro Cortland Finnegan numerous times until he was taken in the 7th round of the 2006 NFL draft. Tom Brady was passed over by each and every team, multiple times. As was TJ Houshmandzadeh.

------
What can we glean from this?

Sometimes Al Davis can spot talent that others don't.

Mel Kiper (and all other draftniks including you) can be incredibly wrong. I didn't really feel like addressing half of the first round in each year. We can just agree on that, right?

And there are plenty of players each year that teams don't like, yet they end up with a 1st or 2nd round value as they come into the NFL.

-----

Now that we have established this, let us also bring to the table that the Chicago Bears wanted to draft Mike Mitchell at #49.

If Al Davis can spot good players that others don't agree with (Colston, Asomugha), then Mike Mitchell may be a guy who fits into this category.

If NFL draftniks can be incredibly wrong about players as they enter the NFL (Ryan Leaf, Mike Williams), then they may be wrong about Mike Mitchell.

If the majority of teams can be incredibly wrong about players as they enter the NFL (Rod Smith, Terrell Davis, Colston, etc.), then Mike Mitchell may fall into this category as well.

And if Mike Mitchell has the potential to fall into these categories, and the Raiders believe he does, then they should do what it takes to bring him in to Oakland. If no one else liked him until the 5th round, then there would be at least a little bit of room for criticism that they could have gotten better value. However, with the Bears about to take Mitchel at #49, the Raiders wanted to make sure they got their guy who they thought was a gem in the draft.

Looking back at it, if the someone was planning on taking Colston in the 2nd round, would you criticize the Saints for grabbing him right before that team? Would they have been criticized for taking him over Sinorice Moss and Chad Jackson? Probably. Especially Chad Jackson.

nobodyinparticular
04-27-2009, 02:12 PM
And there are also reports that those are the only two teams that would've taken him before the 6th/7th round, so Kiper was right on with the vast majority of the league, in fact only two teams disagreed with him on mitchell. Every team views prospects differently and you know what they say, it only takes one, so I don't think Mitchell is proof that draftniks and GMs view things differently since in this case the draftniks were in agreement with 30/32 GMs.

And yet everyone agreed on Rod Smith, Cortland Finnegan, Marquess Colston, etc.

Black Bolt
04-27-2009, 02:43 PM
Exactly, just because there was one more team almost as stupid as the Raiders doesn't make Oakland's pick any better.

This is not so much about the pick as it is Mel Kiper assuming that because he had him graded as the 70 something best player at his position, every other GM did. Scott, I will defend you as the best in the business. But that doesn't mean that you and other draft experts are perfect in your evaluations. This is a guy that played in the MAC conference, not division three. He was not invited to the combine, but he blew up his pro day and impressed several teams like the Raiders, Bears and Browns. There was a buzz about him coming into the draft, so I don't know how Mike Mayock never heard of him. I certainly did.

Black Bolt
04-27-2009, 02:45 PM
that he talked to a GM that had him rated as a 3rd rounder. How many is that now?

According to Peter King, the Bears were the only team that considered drafting him at that point. Here's what he wrote today on cnnsi:

f. The Mid-American Conference has first-, second- and third-team all-conference teams. Ohio University safety Michael Mitchell did not make any of the three last fall. The Raiders used the 15th pick of the second round on Mitchell.

g. I asked three GMs Saturday and Sunday where they had Mitchell on their boards. One said he had a seventh-round grade. Two said he had a free-agent grade.

h. Mitchell is the highest-drafted player of this decade not to have been invited to the combine.

i. You get the point. The pick of Mitchell, and where he was picked, was greeted with as much incredulity as any pick I remember. The only team clearly in competition for him was Chicago.

Also, Mel Kiper said he talked to 6 teams. 3 said he was a free agent, two thought late rounder and one said he was a pro bowler.

Black Bolt
04-27-2009, 02:46 PM
than he and Mayock had on him combined. They need to do their homework and give the first round glamour boys a rest.


According to Peter King, the Bears were the only team that considered drafting him at that point. Here's what he wrote today on cnnsi:

f. The Mid-American Conference has first-, second- and third-team all-conference teams. Ohio University safety Michael Mitchell did not make any of the three last fall. The Raiders used the 15th pick of the second round on Mitchell.

g. I asked three GMs Saturday and Sunday where they had Mitchell on their boards. One said he had a seventh-round grade. Two said he had a free-agent grade.

h. Mitchell is the highest-drafted player of this decade not to have been invited to the combine.

i. You get the point. The pick of Mitchell, and where he was picked, was greeted with as much incredulity as any pick I remember. The only team clearly in competition for him was Chicago.

Also, Mel Kiper said he talked to 6 teams. 3 said he was a free agent, two thought late rounder and one said he was a pro bowler.

Black Bolt
04-27-2009, 02:47 PM
in the draft 5 years ago as the best CB in the draft?? Anyone? Thanks.


There is more proof than a story in the Chicago tribune. The proof is how drafts usually pan out after a few years. The fact of the matter is that the first round usually has half the players as busts, and the rounds after just get higher and higher. The one constant you see however is certain teams getting quality players regardless of the hoopla surrounding their picks. It seems like the Patriots, Steelers, Ravens, Colts, and Titans usually stick to solid boards that aren't usually sexy. Those teams are perennial contenders while other teams end up playing the same game over and over again every April.

Black Bolt
04-27-2009, 02:48 PM
The difference here is that one team is the Raiders. If the Raiders do something, it's a terrible, idiotic, Al Davis has Alzheimer's ******** kind of pick.

Had the Bears have done it, it may still have been considered a reach, but it would nearly have been as **** upon.


Oh, but the Pats did it, so it's a genius move.

Black Bolt
04-27-2009, 02:50 PM
Kiper and company were simply caught with his pants down.

It wouldn't nearly have been talked about. The Raiders have been on a slippery slope with questionable moves for years and then they reach for a 40 time in the first round, that pick just pushed it over the edge.

Had the Bears have done it, it would have came and went and that would been the end of it unless someone was just specifically talking about their draft.

As a Bears fan, I wouldn't have liked the pick obviously, but to 99.9% of people, if wouldn't have been ripped nearly as badly just because it wasn't the Raiders.

Think about it this way. If the Patriots had done it......genius Bill Bellichick who secretly runs the entire NFL I think.....it probably wouldn't have been ripped.

Black Bolt
04-27-2009, 02:53 PM
And there are also reports that those are the only two teams that would've taken him before the 6th/7th round, so Kiper was right on with the vast majority of the league, in fact only two teams disagreed with him on mitchell. Every team views prospects differently and you know what they say, it only takes one, so I don't think Mitchell is proof that draftniks and GMs view things differently since in this case the draftniks were in agreement with 30/32 GMs.

And you will have no way of knowing it. What we KNOW is that the Raiders, Bears had him high. Another team had him as a 3rd rounder which may or may not be the same team that said he was a future Pro Bowler. So that's 3 or 4. But the thing is, we haven't polled every team. I am willing to bet there were more including the Browns.

Mr. Hero
04-27-2009, 02:54 PM
And yet everyone agreed on Rod Smith, Cortland Finnegan, Marquess Colston, etc.

I'm not arguing whether the pick was a bad one or not, for the record I think it was, he's just to raw to go that high in the NFL draft, if this were the NBA draft a guy like him would be a lottery pick, but fortunately this is the NFL draft we're talking about, My point was that Michael mitchell is a poor example of Gms and draftniks not being on the same page since 30 teams agreed with the majority of draftniks on this kid. Everette Brown would be a much better case for that point since most draftniks thought he was a top 20 pick yet he fell to what was it 42?

Borat
04-27-2009, 03:31 PM
I love you Raiders. Keep up the good work.

Sincerely,

9er fans.

Shiver
04-27-2009, 03:43 PM
The Raiders' have the anti-Midas touch. Even when they take players I like (Huff for example) they ruin them.

Monomach
04-27-2009, 04:02 PM
As a Bears fan, I would like to extend a heartfelt "thank you" to Al Davis.

senormysterioso
04-27-2009, 04:09 PM
Also, how many times have you heard a player talk about a team guaranteeing him that if he's there they will take him only to have them pass. Supposedly the Dolphins told Darius Butler that they were going to take him if he was available in the first round. The Cowboys guaranteed Joey Porter that they would take him with their second round pick...I'm sure there have been many, many more.

Comphockey7
04-27-2009, 04:51 PM
You know why when the Patriots make a question pick and nobody makes a huge fuss about it? Its because they win.

I'll be the first to admit that the past few drafts have been horrible for the Patriots, but they keep on winning so no one is going to question what they are doing.

If the Raiders go 12-4 and win the division, maybe Mel will lay off the criticism next draft.

bearsfan_51
04-27-2009, 05:00 PM
LOL. Given the way the Bears draft it probably doesn't hurt he feels at all.

Hmm...is that supposed to be a shot at the Bears? I'll take the draft record of Jerry Angelo in his 8 years as GM of the Bears over that of most GMs in the league.

Gay Ork Wang
04-27-2009, 05:04 PM
Hmm...is that supposed to be a shot at the Bears? I'll take the draft record of Jerry Angelo in his 8 years as GM of the Bears over that of most GMs in the league.
Matt millen was way better, he assured the bears at least 2 wins a season

Black Bolt
04-27-2009, 05:14 PM
my point is that you should at least know what you are talking about if you are going to be loud and boistrous. What Mel was saying about Mitchell being available in the 5th or lower is simply wrong. He would NOT have been available! These guys tend to take THEMSELVES too seriously, especially Mel.


You know why when the Patriots make a question pick and nobody makes a huge fuss about it? Its because they win.

I'll be the first to admit that the past few drafts have been horrible for the Patriots, but they keep on winning so no one is going to question what they are doing.

If the Raiders go 12-4 and win the division, maybe Mel will lay off the criticism next draft.

Gay Ork Wang
04-27-2009, 05:20 PM
how do u know? for all we know he couldve been available

Brodeur
04-27-2009, 05:31 PM
Did Black Bolt actually just pull off a septuple post?

OzTitan
04-27-2009, 05:35 PM
People call this a stupid pick because he wasn't hyped or covered pre-draft, not even as a sleeper. Analysts cover sleepers as a gimmick but aren't really expected to catch them all - hell, NFL teams don't. But that doesn't mean the player is sub par necessarily.

That, and teams don't share draft boards with those from analysts that the public can view pre-draft. Entirely different. So to say the Raiders could have waited to round X because he was a complete noname simply isn't necessarily true. What matters if he was known by teams, not analysts.

The reality is he's just another draft pick with the same chance they all have. If he pans out, it will be a brilliant choice. If he doesn't, then I don't think he's much more of a mistake than any other round 2 bust (and there will be plenty). People get too worked up on "value" and "projection" when it comes to rookie prospects. Could the Raiders have waited? Maybe. But why risk it if you really like him. We can sit here all day and criticize teams for not achieving perfect value - if you ask me it's bad drafting to be so concerned over something as petty as perfect value. Round 2, 3, 5 - who really cares. If you like the kid enough, trust your own scouting and go for it.

Borat
04-27-2009, 05:42 PM
Did Black Bolt actually just pull off a septuple post?

That's like a postamanjaro (that's for my fellow halo nerds)

vidae
04-27-2009, 05:43 PM
I love you Raiders. Keep up the good work.

Sincerely,

9er fans.

The entire AFC West agrees!

VoteLynnSwan
04-27-2009, 05:57 PM
here's what people would have said had the Patriots pick Michael Mitchell at that point in the second round.

"Michael Mitchell, whoa, this is a guy that was graded as a 7th round/UDFA type. I think this is a big reach, but the Patriots must have seen something they like"

What's the difference between the Patriots and Raiders?

The Patriots have time and time again picked players who many thought were reaches, but those players have turned out to be good.

The Raiders on the other hand have time and time again proven that they are inept at drafting.

This is why you see the difference in reaction... The Patriots have earned the benefit of the doubt, the Raiders are far from anything approaching that.

Black Bolt
04-27-2009, 06:30 PM
Sebstian Volmer was one of 4 guys they drafted that was not invited to the combine. Genius they are.

here's what people would have said had the Patriots pick Michael Mitchell at that point in the second round.

"Michael Mitchell, whoa, this is a guy that was graded as a 7th round/UDFA type. I think this is a big reach, but the Patriots must have seen something they like"

What's the difference between the Patriots and Raiders?

The Patriots have time and time again picked players who many thought were reaches, but those players have turned out to be good.

The Raiders on the other hand have time and time again proven that they are inept at drafting.

This is why you see the difference in reaction... The Patriots have earned the benefit of the doubt, the Raiders are far from anything approaching that.

Sniper
04-27-2009, 06:32 PM
Sebstian Volmer was one of 4 guys they drafted that was not invited to the combine. Genius they are.

They've done a hell of a lot more recently than the Raiders have. Enjoy Troy Williamson.

Borat
04-27-2009, 06:33 PM
Dude, if you have to create a bunch of threads and ***** about others mocking your pick, then it probably was a bad selection. Get over it already.

farfromforgotten
04-27-2009, 06:57 PM
in the draft 5 years ago as the best CB in the draft?? Anyone? Thanks.

So Mr. Al Davis gets "lucky" that one of his speed freak 40 time picks actually worked out. Congratulations. He's obviously a genius.

Here are the Raiders drafts since 2000. How many of these guys are still on the team? Still in the NFL?

2008
1. Darren McFadden, RB, Arkansas
4a. Tyvon Branch, DB, Connecticut
4b. Arman Shields, WR, Richmond
6. Trevor Scott, DE, Buffalo
7. Chaz Schilens, WR, San Diego State

2007
1. JaMarcus Russell, QB, LSU
2. Zach Miller, TE, Arizona State
3a. Quentin Moses, DE, Georgia
3b. Mario Henderson, OL, Florida State
3c. Johnnie Lee Higgins, WR, UTEP
4a. Michael Bush, RB, Louisville
4b. John Bowie, CB, Cincinnati
5a. Jay Richardson, DE, Ohio State
5b. Eric Frampton, S, Washington State
6. Oren O'Neal, FB, Arkansas State
7. Jonathan Holland, WR, Louisiana Tech

2006
1. Michael Huff, S, Texas
2. Thomas Howard, LB, Texas-El Paso
3. Paul McQuistan, OL, Weber State
4. Darnell Bing, S, USC
6. Kevin Boothe, OL, Cornell
7a. Chris Morris, C, Michigan State
7b. Kevin McMahan, WR, Maine

2005
1. Fabian Washington, CB, Nebraska
2. Stanford Routt, CB, Houston
3a. Andrew Walter, QB, Arizona State
3b. Kirk Morrison, LB, San Diego State
6a. Anttaj Hawthorne, DT, Wisconsin
6b. Ryan Riddle, LB, California
6c. Pete McMahon, OT, Iowa

2004
1. Robert Gallery, OT, Iowa
2. Jake Grove, C, Virginia Tech
3. Stuart Schweigert, S, Purdue
4. Carlos Francis, WR, Texas Tech
5. Johnnie Morant, WR, Syracuse
6a. Shawn Johnson, DE, Delaware
6b. Cody Spencer, LB, North Texas
7a. Courtney Anderson, TE, San Jose State

2003
1a. Nnamdi Asomugha, CB, California
1b. Tyler Brayton, DE, Colorado
2. Teyo Johnson, TE, Stanford
3a. Sam Williams, DE, Fresno State
3b. Justin Fargas, RB, USC
4. Shurron Pierson, LB, South Florida
5. Doug Gabriel, WR, Central Florida
6. Dustin Rykert, T, BYU
7a. Sideeq Shabazz, S, New Mexico State
7b. Ryan Hoag, WR Gustavus Adolphus

2002
1a. Phillip Buchanon, CB, Miami, Fla.
1b. Napoleon Harris, LB, Northwestern
2a. Langston Walker, OL, California
2b. Doug Jolley, TE, BYU
5. Kenyon Coleman, DE, UCLA
6a. Keyon Nash, DB, Albany State (Ga.)
6b. Larry Ned, RB, San Diego State
7. Ronald Curry, QB, North Carolina

2001
1. Derrick Gibson, S, Florida State
2. Marques Tuiasosopo, QB Washington
3. DeLawrence Grant, DE, Oregon State
5. Raymond Perryman, S, Northern Arizona
6. Chris Cooper, DE, Nebraska-Omaha
7a. Derek Combs, RB, Ohio State
7b. Ken-Yon Rambo, WR, Ohio State

2000
1. Sebastian Janikowski, K, Florida State
2. Jerry Porter, WR, West Virginia
4. Junior Ioane, DT, Arizona State
5. Shane Lechler, P, Texas A&M
7a. Mondriel Fulcher, TE, Miami (Fla.)

lancez
05-02-2009, 02:40 PM
Kiper company had a field day laughing at the Raiders picks including Michael Mitchell. He said that he could have been taken in the 5th round. Well the Chicago Tribune is reporting that the Bears were going to take him two picks after the Raiders. Does that hurt you feels, Mel? The fact that you are exposed as not doing your homework?


The Tribune's info is incorrect. The Bears were looking at Mitchell, true, but not in the 2nd round. Trust me.

lancez
05-02-2009, 02:41 PM
So Mr. Al Davis gets "lucky" that one of his speed freak 40 time picks actually worked out. Congratulations. He's obviously a genius.

Here are the Raiders drafts since 2000. How many of these guys are still on the team? Still in the NFL?

2008
1. Darren McFadden, RB, Arkansas
4a. Tyvon Branch, DB, Connecticut
4b. Arman Shields, WR, Richmond
6. Trevor Scott, DE, Buffalo
7. Chaz Schilens, WR, San Diego State

2007
1. JaMarcus Russell, QB, LSU
2. Zach Miller, TE, Arizona State
3a. Quentin Moses, DE, Georgia
3b. Mario Henderson, OL, Florida State
3c. Johnnie Lee Higgins, WR, UTEP
4a. Michael Bush, RB, Louisville
4b. John Bowie, CB, Cincinnati
5a. Jay Richardson, DE, Ohio State
5b. Eric Frampton, S, Washington State
6. Oren O'Neal, FB, Arkansas State
7. Jonathan Holland, WR, Louisiana Tech

2006
1. Michael Huff, S, Texas
2. Thomas Howard, LB, Texas-El Paso
3. Paul McQuistan, OL, Weber State
4. Darnell Bing, S, USC
6. Kevin Boothe, OL, Cornell
7a. Chris Morris, C, Michigan State
7b. Kevin McMahan, WR, Maine

2005
1. Fabian Washington, CB, Nebraska
2. Stanford Routt, CB, Houston
3a. Andrew Walter, QB, Arizona State
3b. Kirk Morrison, LB, San Diego State
6a. Anttaj Hawthorne, DT, Wisconsin
6b. Ryan Riddle, LB, California
6c. Pete McMahon, OT, Iowa

2004
1. Robert Gallery, OT, Iowa
2. Jake Grove, C, Virginia Tech
3. Stuart Schweigert, S, Purdue
4. Carlos Francis, WR, Texas Tech
5. Johnnie Morant, WR, Syracuse
6a. Shawn Johnson, DE, Delaware
6b. Cody Spencer, LB, North Texas
7a. Courtney Anderson, TE, San Jose State

2003
1a. Nnamdi Asomugha, CB, California
1b. Tyler Brayton, DE, Colorado
2. Teyo Johnson, TE, Stanford
3a. Sam Williams, DE, Fresno State
3b. Justin Fargas, RB, USC
4. Shurron Pierson, LB, South Florida
5. Doug Gabriel, WR, Central Florida
6. Dustin Rykert, T, BYU
7a. Sideeq Shabazz, S, New Mexico State
7b. Ryan Hoag, WR Gustavus Adolphus

2002
1a. Phillip Buchanon, CB, Miami, Fla.
1b. Napoleon Harris, LB, Northwestern
2a. Langston Walker, OL, California
2b. Doug Jolley, TE, BYU
5. Kenyon Coleman, DE, UCLA
6a. Keyon Nash, DB, Albany State (Ga.)
6b. Larry Ned, RB, San Diego State
7. Ronald Curry, QB, North Carolina

2001
1. Derrick Gibson, S, Florida State
2. Marques Tuiasosopo, QB Washington
3. DeLawrence Grant, DE, Oregon State
5. Raymond Perryman, S, Northern Arizona
6. Chris Cooper, DE, Nebraska-Omaha
7a. Derek Combs, RB, Ohio State
7b. Ken-Yon Rambo, WR, Ohio State

2000
1. Sebastian Janikowski, K, Florida State
2. Jerry Porter, WR, West Virginia
4. Junior Ioane, DT, Arizona State
5. Shane Lechler, P, Texas A&M
7a. Mondriel Fulcher, TE, Miami (Fla.)


You could literally take a message board and post "who should they take?" polls for every single Raider pick over the last 9 years and do a much better job than Al Davis has done.

ThePudge
05-02-2009, 03:14 PM
And you will have no way of knowing it. What we KNOW is that the Raiders, Bears had him high. Another team had him as a 3rd rounder which may or may not be the same team that said he was a future Pro Bowler. So that's 3 or 4. But the thing is, we haven't polled every team. I am willing to bet there were more including the Browns.

...Wrong. They announced on both ESPN and NFLN that two teams and only two teams graded Mitchell as draftable before the 7th Round, the rest thought he was 7th Round-Priority Free Agent material. This surfaced on the second day of the draft, when it was revealed the Chicago Bears also had significant interest.

Don't try to make this pick look smart. Mitchell may wind up a good player in the NFL, but it was a bad pick, an enormous reach, and one that Al Davis is correctly criticized heavily for making.

SKim172
05-02-2009, 03:32 PM
NFLN said that while the Bears did indeed have interest, they had no intention of even considering him before the fifth round.

ThePudge
05-02-2009, 03:50 PM
NFLN said that while the Bears did indeed have interest, they had no intention of even considering him before the fifth round.

I heard they had him graded in the third, would consider him at 49th Overall, but thought they could get him in the fourth and may have put it off until about then, make it certain they'd end up with Mitchell at the end of the day.

Burns336
05-02-2009, 04:03 PM
Also, how many times have you heard a player talk about a team guaranteeing him that if he's there they will take him only to have them pass. Supposedly the Dolphins told Darius Butler that they were going to take him if he was available in the first round. The Cowboys guaranteed Joey Porter that they would take him with their second round pick...I'm sure there have been many, many more.

pretty sure the Cowboys made similar promises to Shawn Merriman and Randy Moss, only to pass on both.

I know Tampa Bay promised they would pick Mike Jenkins last year and instead went with Talib.

The Bears may have just been getting him hyped up for the 3rd round or something.

Abaddon
05-02-2009, 05:22 PM
Mel Kiper is the one who told everyone he would see them at Williams' Hall of Fame induction... o.0

Still my all time favorite Mel Kiper foot-meet-mouth moment. Classic stuff.

Abaddon
05-02-2009, 05:26 PM
I have serious doubts that Al Davis actually wanted Colston in Rd3. If Al liked the guy and thought he was a 3rd round value, he wouldn't have passed him up the following 4 rounds.

So we're not talking about value here, we're talking about whether the player will be good or not.

Consider that Al Davis wanted to draft Marques Colston in the 3rd round when he wasn't drafted til the 7th. Most people felt it was a reach for the Raiders to take Nnamdi Asomugha in the 1st round. Consider that Mel Kiper's future Hall of Famer Mike Williams is already out of the league. Rod Smith was an undrafted free agent. 32 teams passed on All-Pro Cortland Finnegan numerous times until he was taken in the 7th round of the 2006 NFL draft. Tom Brady was passed over by each and every team, multiple times. As was TJ Houshmandzadeh.

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What can we glean from this?

Sometimes Al Davis can spot talent that others don't.

Mel Kiper (and all other draftniks including you) can be incredibly wrong. I didn't really feel like addressing half of the first round in each year. We can just agree on that, right?

And there are plenty of players each year that teams don't like, yet they end up with a 1st or 2nd round value as they come into the NFL.

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Now that we have established this, let us also bring to the table that the Chicago Bears wanted to draft Mike Mitchell at #49.

If Al Davis can spot good players that others don't agree with (Colston, Asomugha), then Mike Mitchell may be a guy who fits into this category.

If NFL draftniks can be incredibly wrong about players as they enter the NFL (Ryan Leaf, Mike Williams), then they may be wrong about Mike Mitchell.

If the majority of teams can be incredibly wrong about players as they enter the NFL (Rod Smith, Terrell Davis, Colston, etc.), then Mike Mitchell may fall into this category as well.

And if Mike Mitchell has the potential to fall into these categories, and the Raiders believe he does, then they should do what it takes to bring him in to Oakland. If no one else liked him until the 5th round, then there would be at least a little bit of room for criticism that they could have gotten better value. However, with the Bears about to take Mitchel at #49, the Raiders wanted to make sure they got their guy who they thought was a gem in the draft.

Looking back at it, if the someone was planning on taking Colston in the 2nd round, would you criticize the Saints for grabbing him right before that team? Would they have been criticized for taking him over Sinorice Moss and Chad Jackson? Probably. Especially Chad Jackson.

Crickett
05-02-2009, 06:34 PM
So we're not talking about value here, we're talking about whether the player will be good or not.

Consider that Al Davis wanted to draft Marques Colston in the 3rd round when he wasn't drafted til the 7th.

Considering that.....

A. Colston's 40 was 4.55
B. The Raiders had three other picks between their third and the time Colston was selected They could have drafted in in the 4th, 6th and 7th. They didn't.

I call BS.


Most people felt it was a reach for the Raiders to take Nnamdi Asomugha in the 1st round.

And you had to go back 6 years to find that good pick.

People felt Tyler Brayton was a reach. And it was.
People felt Teyo Johnson was a reach. And it was.

Remember the phrase "luxury pick"? You heard it almost as frequently in 2003 as you did "steroids are as American as apple pie" this year.

We had a good long laugh about Fabian Washington and Stanford Routt. We still are.

Nnamdi Asomugha was a great pick. That makes them 1 for 6 drafting speedy DB's in the first two rounds this decade.

Derrick Gibson
Phillip Buchanon
Nnamdi Asomugha
Fabian Washington
Stanford Routt
Michael Huff

bearsfan_51
05-02-2009, 07:43 PM
The Bears have come out and confirmed that they were not going to draft Mitchell at 49. They had a list of 5 names they were considering there, Juaquin Iglesias was one. Jaron Gilbert was another. Michael Mitchell was not.

The kid was probably just trying to defend his name, and I don't doubt the Bears gave him a call, but something was exaggerated somewhere.