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The Legend
04-30-2009, 11:30 PM
I saw Eric Berry today and something was really weird. I stood right next to him and he was shorter then me. The problem with this is he is listed by some as 6'0 tall and I'm 5'9. He look just a little shorter then me so I'm guessing he's a low 5'9 (5'9 2/8) or a high 5'8 (5'8 6/8) When I went to the doctors I was listed as 5 Feet 9 Inches and 6/10ths.



Walterfootball: 6'0
NFL Draft Scout: 5'11
Wiki: 5'11 1/2

thetedginnshow
04-30-2009, 11:34 PM
Awesome. Watch him fall.

Falcon_from_E_Oakland
04-30-2009, 11:34 PM
He's been officially measured at 5'11 as a rising senior...

Sniper
04-30-2009, 11:34 PM
I stood right next to him

Were you able to control your raging boner? Because I wouldn't be able to.

The Legend
04-30-2009, 11:36 PM
He's been officially measured at 5'11 as a rising senior...

Michael Crabtree was officially measured at a high 6'3 and then he turned out to be 6'1.
That doesn't mean anything until you hit the combine. My question is if he turns out to be 5'9 or 5'8 does it hurt his stock?

Were you able to control your raging boner? Because I wouldn't be able to.

OMG GUESS WHAT I SAID!! I said "cant wait till your in the nfl man" OMG GUESS WHAT HE SAID!! thanks bro.

Falcon_from_E_Oakland
04-30-2009, 11:38 PM
Michael Crabtree was officially measured at a high 6'3 and then he turned out to be 6'1.
That doesn't mean anything until you hit the combine. My question is if he turns out to be 5'9 or 5'8 does it hurt his stock?



OMG GUESS WHAT I SAID!! I said "cant wait till your in the nfl man" OMG GUESS WHAT HE SAID!! thanks bro.


He was listed at 6'1 in high school

yourfavestoner
04-30-2009, 11:40 PM
He was listed at 6'1 in high school

High school heights and weights are more inflated than college ones. In high school, I was listed at 6'1 215 lbs, when I was no bigger than about 5'10 and 190 lbs.

The Legend
04-30-2009, 11:41 PM
He was listed at 6'1 in high school

Crabtree? or Berry?

High school heights and weights are more inflated than college ones. In high school, I was listed at 6'1 215 lbs, when I was no bigger than about 5'10 and 190 lbs.

Same here i was listed as 6'0/200lbs but I was 5'9 182. I don't trust it till I see it by a doctor.

Sniper
04-30-2009, 11:42 PM
OMG GUESS WHAT I SAID!! I said "cant wait till your in the nfl man" OMG GUESS WHAT HE SAID!! thanks bro.

Holy ****, I may have just wet myself.

As for the height question, I doubt it. He's shown that he's a major baller. On second thought, let him slide to the Eagles!

The Legend
04-30-2009, 11:46 PM
Holy ****, I may have just wet myself.

As for the height question, I doubt it. He's shown that he's a major baller. On second thought, let him slide to the Eagles!

Eagles? I think it's only fair that he goes with the 33rd pick. Don't you agree? They don't need a rookie scale if the worst team gets him.

Sniper
04-30-2009, 11:47 PM
Eagles? I think it's only fair the he goes with the 33rd pick. Don't you agree?

No, he won't make it to the first pick of the second round. The Eagles would take him at 32.

RaiderNation
04-30-2009, 11:47 PM
My doctors said Im 5'10, almost every where else says Im atleast 6'. Id say go to a gym or just make one on your wall and see how tall you really are

The Legend
04-30-2009, 11:48 PM
My doctors said Im 5'10, almost every where else says Im atleast 6'. Id say go to a gym or just make one on your wall and see how tall you really are

Or just believe the doctors? lol

OneToughGame
04-30-2009, 11:48 PM
With what Bob Sanders has done in the NFL at 5'8? I don't think it hurts his stock really if he's 5'9.

RaiderNation
05-01-2009, 12:15 AM
Or just believe the doctors? lol

Lol no Im a legit 6' probably more close to 6'1 now and I went to the doctors like 2 monthes ago

sup3rdup3r
05-01-2009, 12:30 AM
Bob Sanders - 5'8
Troy Polamalu - 5'10
Mike Brown - 5'10

Hopefully he does fall, maybe my niners can take him with one of our first round picks.

Texas Homer
05-01-2009, 12:31 AM
The Texans have dibs on Berry.

If he is really 5'8 or 5'9 it could possibly hurt his stock a little, but not that much.

With that being said, I've never stood next to him, but he looks taller than 5'9 on TV.

CC.SD
05-01-2009, 12:43 AM
Were you able to control your raging boner? Because I wouldn't be able to.

The only excuse for not having a boner around Berry would be if you had previously been around Mays, and suffered from a boner explosion as a result.

Hawk
05-01-2009, 12:46 AM
He's not that big. I've stood next to him and he seems a little short, granted I am 6'3 but still. Shouldn't hurt his stock too much.

Paranoidmoonduck
05-01-2009, 01:21 AM
I'm not going to debate whether standing next to someone is an accurate measure of height.

But if he does measure in at somewhere between 5-8 and 5-9, it does hurt him a bit as a prospect. It probably removes him from a top 5 possibility (I didn't really expect that anyway) and it gives Taylor Mays another physical advantage to try and leap over him on team's boards.

I don't think it really hurts him as a player. In fact, being that height will make his lack of weight less of a concern, because his bulk will profile better in that height. And we all know that there's a lot of functional safeties out there at that height. But yeah, once these guys are out of pads for about 4 months, something like that would knock him down a little bit. That said, there's a lot that he could do to overwrite a disappointing height measurement at the combine (like turning in a good vertical).

CashmoneyDrew
05-01-2009, 01:27 AM
I don't think there's a shot in hell he measures in at under 5'10.

CC.SD
05-01-2009, 01:54 AM
I'm not going to debate whether standing next to someone is an accurate measure of height.

But if he does measure in at somewhere between 5-8 and 5-9, it does hurt him a bit as a prospect. It probably removes him from a top 5 possibility (I didn't really expect that anyway) and it gives Taylor Mays another physical advantage to try and leap over him on team's boards.

I don't think any argument of Berry>Mays (and they are legitimate, although I respectfully disagree) is predicated on physical stature anyway. Taylor Mays is the best physical specimen of a safety prospect since Sean Taylor, and if not for him, it would be ever.

GhostDeini
05-01-2009, 02:06 AM
Let The Wallabee Champ know when Taylor Mays makes his first play.......

Woody56
05-01-2009, 02:18 AM
Heres him standing next to Demetrice Morley who is listed at 6'0

http://media.knoxnews.com/kns/content/img/videothumbs/2008/09/25/demetrice_morley_interviews_eric_berry_1.jpg

Good chance Morley isn't even 6'0, so that would make Berry look about 5'10 or 5'9

CC.SD
05-01-2009, 02:19 AM
Let The Wallabee Champ know when Taylor Mays makes his first play.......

Watch more football, and read more carefully. Mario is not a safety, although if he really wanted to he probably could be.

Sniper
05-01-2009, 02:20 AM
Let The Wallabee Champ know when Taylor Mays makes his first play.......

Let me know when you understand the concept of a deep safety in Cover 1.

KLD33s7V7EU&feature=related

augIi76eJ8w&feature=related

Wsex0ceiDtk&feature=related

GhostDeini
05-01-2009, 02:22 AM
Please save the excuses. Like I said before Kenny Phillips had a 3 int game. Reggie Nelson played 60 yards behind LOS, still made mad plays.

GhostDeini
05-01-2009, 02:24 AM
Edward Reed led NCAA in ints as junior and senior. The late GREAT S.Taylor had 14 int's in 2 years as full time starter.

Sniper
05-01-2009, 02:42 AM
Interceptions=best indicator of a good DB. :rolleyes: Morgan Trent had more INTs than Vontae Davis last year. He must be a better corner.

The Legend
05-01-2009, 03:01 AM
Heres him standing next to Demetrice Morley who is listed at 6'0

http://media.knoxnews.com/kns/content/img/videothumbs/2008/09/25/demetrice_morley_interviews_eric_berry_1.jpg

Good chance Morley isn't even 6'0, so that would make Berry look about 5'10 or 5'9

One year from today we will see i guess, but thanks for the picture.

BigBanger
05-01-2009, 03:11 AM
5'10 197 that's what he is.

I know him. Most of the weight is in his jock though.

BigBanger
05-01-2009, 03:19 AM
Let me know when you understand the concept of a deep safety in Cover 1.

KLD33s7V7EU&feature=related
Such a clean hit on Noorwood. To quote Charles Woodson, 'A ******** call.'

Mays will lay a ************ out.

GhostDeini
05-01-2009, 03:19 AM
http://i.a.cnn.net/si/2006/writers/don_banks/04/25/pivotal.picks/p1_reed.jpg......5'11 200. Scary isnt it ?

Addict
05-01-2009, 04:49 AM
is an inch really that big a deal? it's an inch.

The Legend
05-01-2009, 06:24 AM
is an inch really that big a deal? it's an inch.

I'm pretty sure you're girl would disagree with you there ;)

eaglesalltheway
05-01-2009, 06:43 AM
http://i.a.cnn.net/si/2006/writers/don_banks/04/25/pivotal.picks/p1_reed.jpg......5'11 200. Scary isnt it ?

You gotta drop that pic from your sig man, waaaaaaaay too big...

eaglesalltheway
05-01-2009, 06:45 AM
Measuring in shorter than expected will hurt your stock. Crabs came in shroter than expected and he dropped, but that was only a small factor in his fall. But if Berry came in at 5'8 or 5'9 ti would hurt his stock marginally. He'd still go in the top half of the first round, if not top 10, but as someone said before top 5 would be out of the question, which he probably wouldn't achieve anyway dut to all the talent in next year's draft.

parrish_lemar24DBSkins
05-01-2009, 09:48 AM
Such a clean hit on Noorwood. To quote Charles Woodson, 'A ******** call.'

Mays will lay a ************ out.

Clean hit my a@@! It was an awesome lick, but that hit was clearly helmet to helmet and would be called as such in the NFL. Mays will never be given the benefit of the doubt on those types of hits because of his superior size and ability to literally end someone's career.

Do we all remember a former pro bowl safety from USC who played for the Bears and Skins before he played himself out of the league because he couldn't make clean hits without being penalized?

Mark Carrier anyone?

I think Taylor Mays could be a few ticks better than Laron Landry, a similar type player who didn't get his hands on a lot of balls in college, but should have more opportunities in the pros.

If Mays had slightly better instincts, when he's closing on a WR he'd be in a position to make a play on the ball instead of having to bail out and settle for the hit.

No need to go for the knockout on a WR if you arrive a few steps before the ball does.

As for Berry, it will hurt his stock IMO if he's less than 5'10, that is he probably won't be a top 5 selection. But then again, if he has 8+ INTs next season, people won't care if he's 5'2.

Brent
05-01-2009, 09:58 AM
Let me know when you understand the concept of a deep safety in Cover 1.
I think that is what bothers me the most about people's assessment of Mays. He wasnt asked to make plays, he was asked to not allow TDs in a Cover 1 and guess what he did: he didnt allow a pass play of over 20 yards.

parrish_lemar24DBSkins
05-01-2009, 10:08 AM
Playing deep in coverage doesn't mean Pete Carroll forbade Mays from making INTs. Interceptions are all about recognition/reaction time/instincts, and Taylor doesn't make many of them.

But like Laron Landry, it doesn't mean he can't. I doubt he's had too many opportunities to track the football deep, but when does, I don't see a player with deep ball instincts.

Not really a knock on him, but at the next level I hope whoever drafts Mays lets him play more wide open like Polamalu and let him run around more to make plays all over the field.

CC.SD
05-01-2009, 10:08 AM
I think that is what bothers me the most about people's assessment of Mays. He wasnt asked to make plays, he was asked to not allow TDs in a Cover 1 and guess what he did: he didnt allow a pass play of over 20 yards.

A key reason last year's Trojan squad may have had the best defense in college football history; an amazing one at the very least. Taylor has respect from the people who actually matter, NFL scouts.

whatadai
05-01-2009, 10:16 AM
A key reason last year's Trojan squad may have had the best defense in college football history; an amazing one at the very least. Taylor has respect from the people who actually matter, NFL scouts.

Don't bother. Whenever a Trojan is being compared to another player as one of the two top players at the position on this forum, the Trojan will always lose.

parrish_lemar24DBSkins
05-01-2009, 10:23 AM
I disagree, whatadai.

I think when all the combine and post combine testing is done, Mays will solidify himself as the top prospect at the position, especially if he can run a sub 4.4 and 225+ pounds, 6'2-6'3.

Even though Berry is a transcendent player on the field and much more productive that Mays, if Berry measures less than 5'11 and is slower than 4.45, he'll be the second safety off the board, IMO.

Nalej
05-01-2009, 10:27 AM
I disagree, whatadai.

I think when all the combine and post combine testing is done, Mays will solidify himself as the top prospect at the position, especially if he can run a sub 4.4 and 225+ pounds, 6'2-6'3.

Even though Berry is a transcendent player on the field and much more productive that Mays, if Berry measures less than 5'11 and is slower than 4.45, he'll be the second safety off the board, IMO.


I agree with the above.

Buttered toast sonic
05-01-2009, 10:57 AM
if Eric Berry and Taylor mays collidied, could anyone stop the victory that would ensue?

Halsey
05-01-2009, 11:46 AM
I'm not really buying that Berry is listed 3 or 4 inches taller than he really is. You'd be able to tell just by watching TV if he was that much shorter than 6'0. I've seen him standing next to UGA players listed taller than 5'9 and he's taller.

Flyboy
05-01-2009, 11:51 AM
Were you able to control your raging boner? Because I wouldn't be able to.

Okay, LMFAO. That made laugh at work so loud.

wicket
05-01-2009, 11:58 AM
if Eric Berry and Taylor mays collidied, could anyone stop the victory that would ensue?

reminds me of a thread where we were discussing a potential usc florida matchup with TT trying to truck over rey

eaglesalltheway
05-01-2009, 12:01 PM
I think that is what bothers me the most about people's assessment of Mays. He wasnt asked to make plays, he was asked to not allow TDs in a Cover 1 and guess what he did: he didnt allow a pass play of over 20 yards.

I think the closer description of his job is not allowing the offense to make plays, and he does that.

Saints-Tigers
05-01-2009, 12:20 PM
LaRon Landry played the same role and still made a lot more plays. We are saying Landry never got his hands on a lot of balls, but he still intercepted a lot more than Mays(12 picks in 4 years, as opposed to 4 in 3 years for Mays). He also made a lot more plays at and behind the line of scrimmage, and was able to deliver the big hit far more frequently.

CashmoneyDrew
05-01-2009, 12:30 PM
Another thing to keep in mind. Tennessee usually does a pretty good job with their height listings. If they're off, it's usually only by an inch. In fact, I remember Justin Harrell being listed at 6'4 in college and actually measured in at the combine taller than what he was listed at.

Staubach12
05-01-2009, 01:21 PM
PLEASE let Berry drop. We just need him in the 20s! That's all we need!!!

vatech=accdomination
05-01-2009, 01:48 PM
5'10.5 i think is where he will measure in at, which is respectable

pr0d1gy
05-01-2009, 04:02 PM
As long as his vertical jump is solid his height won't really come into play for anyone but Al Davis.

Mr. Hero
05-01-2009, 04:04 PM
I hope he's only 5'9", then he can fall all of the way to 32 where the giants can grab him to pair with Kenny Phillips after winning another superbowl. I like that plan and it's worked before!

Mr. Hero
05-01-2009, 04:14 PM
reminds me of a thread where we were discussing a potential usc florida matchup with TT trying to truck over rey

We all know tebow would've made rey cry. He could've broken tebow's leg on the play but tim would still knock him the **** over.

Mr. Hero
05-01-2009, 04:18 PM
I don't think any argument of Berry>Mays (and they are legitimate, although I respectfully disagree) is predicated on physical stature anyway. Taylor Mays is the best physical specimen of a safety prospect since Sean Taylor, and if not for him, it would be ever.

Laron Landry? Note I was a major gator homer and preferred Nelson to Landry but Landry was a giant and ran a 4.3 something.

whatadai
05-01-2009, 04:18 PM
I disagree, whatadai.

I think when all the combine and post combine testing is done, Mays will solidify himself as the top prospect at the position, especially if he can run a sub 4.4 and 225+ pounds, 6'2-6'3.

Even though Berry is a transcendent player on the field and much more productive that Mays, if Berry measures less than 5'11 and is slower than 4.45, he'll be the second safety off the board, IMO.

I know. I said on this forum, not the NFL. Most people on here underrate USC players just because of the "they have so much talent around them" argument.

Mr. Hero
05-01-2009, 04:22 PM
I know. I said on this forum, not the NFL. Most people on here underrate USC players just because of the "they have so much talent around them" argument.

Ridiculous, most people here under-rate USC players due to the "insane espn hype created over-ratedness" argument. Like we did with studs like Matt Leinart, Reggie Bush and Mike Williams.

Cigaro
05-01-2009, 04:49 PM
Lies, damned lies!

CC.SD
05-01-2009, 05:52 PM
Laron Landry? Note I was a major gator homer and preferred Nelson to Landry but Landry was a giant and ran a 4.3 something.

I'll slobber over Landry anyday but as a physical specimen he's no Mays, and not in Sean Taylor's galaxy.

Paranoidmoonduck
05-01-2009, 06:32 PM
LaRon Landry played the same role and still made a lot more plays. We are saying Landry never got his hands on a lot of balls, but he still intercepted a lot more than Mays(12 picks in 4 years, as opposed to 4 in 3 years for Mays). He also made a lot more plays at and behind the line of scrimmage, and was able to deliver the big hit far more frequently.

Except he didn't play the same role as Mays, which is why we saw him blitz from outside and inside and play a lot in the box. That simply isn't what Mays does at USC.

whatadai
05-01-2009, 06:38 PM
Ridiculous, most people here under-rate USC players due to the "insane espn hype created over-ratedness" argument. Like we did with studs like Matt Leinart, Reggie Bush and Mike Williams.

Thanks for naming one bust, one guy who has actually helped his team a lot, and one guy that hasn't gotten a real chance yet. Thanks for not naming everyone else that is doing well. Hell, even Scott thinks Leinart will end up being great by sitting a couple years and for that I applaud him. People can have their opinions, but when the general membership of this forum rates a player down because he's a Trojan, it just irks me.

When the hell did an average of 1215 all purpose yards a year, an average of 210 touches a year, and an average of 6.67 TDs a year stand for bust? In my opinion, he doesn't under perform for where he was drafted. Saints knew who they were getting from the start and they've been smart enough to use him correctly.

Falcon_from_E_Oakland
05-01-2009, 07:36 PM
Thanks for naming one bust, one guy who has actually helped his team a lot, and one guy that hasn't gotten a real chance yet. Thanks for not naming everyone else that is doing well. Hell, even Scott thinks Leinart will end up being great by sitting a couple years and for that I applaud him. People can have their opinions, but when the general membership of this forum rates a player down because he's a Trojan, it just irks me.

When the hell did an average of 1215 all purpose yards a year, an average of 210 touches a year, and an average of 6.67 TDs a year stand for bust? In my opinion, he doesn't under perform for where he was drafted. Saints knew who they were getting from the start and they've been smart enough to use him correctly.


http://img9.imageshack.us/img9/5032/pootiel.jpg

Mr. Hero
05-01-2009, 07:56 PM
Thanks for naming one bust, one guy who has actually helped his team a lot, and one guy that hasn't gotten a real chance yet. Thanks for not naming everyone else that is doing well. Hell, even Scott thinks Leinart will end up being great by sitting a couple years and for that I applaud him. People can have their opinions, but when the general membership of this forum rates a player down because he's a Trojan, it just irks me.

When the hell did an average of 1215 all purpose yards a year, an average of 210 touches a year, and an average of 6.67 TDs a year stand for bust? In my opinion, he doesn't under perform for where he was drafted. Saints knew who they were getting from the start and they've been smart enough to use him correctly.

No reason to get all defensive. I like reggie bush, but he hasn't become the transcendent talent he was hyped up to be. He's a very dangerous football player but he's not the next marshall faulk. I have no faith in leinart because he just gave up during the competition with warner and pouted, but he's still got a chance. My point was that USC a lot of media attention, and people who argue against USC prospects for being over-rated usually bring up the excessive love they get from the media as a reason why their players get over-rated, at least moreso than the do the USC's got a lot of talent argument.

CC.SD
05-01-2009, 08:58 PM
No reason to get all defensive. I like reggie bush, but he hasn't become the transcendent talent he was hyped up to be. He's a very dangerous football player but he's not the next marshall faulk. I have no faith in leinart because he just gave up during the competition with warner and pouted, but he's still got a chance. My point was that USC a lot of media attention, and people who argue against USC prospects for being over-rated usually bring up the excessive love they get from the media as a reason why their players get over-rated, at least moreso than the do the USC's got a lot of talent argument.

You're still only talking about a couple guys despite a ridiculous abundance of Trojans all over the NFL.

BigBanger
05-01-2009, 09:03 PM
Clean hit my a@@! It was an awesome lick, but that hit was clearly helmet to helmet and would be called as such in the NFL. Mays will never be given the benefit of the doubt on those types of hits because of his superior size and ability to literally end someone's career.

Do we all remember a former pro bowl safety from USC who played for the Bears and Skins before he played himself out of the league because he couldn't make clean hits without being penalized?

Mark Carrier anyone?

I think Taylor Mays could be a few ticks better than Laron Landry, a similar type player who didn't get his hands on a lot of balls in college, but should have more opportunities in the pros.

If Mays had slightly better instincts, when he's closing on a WR he'd be in a position to make a play on the ball instead of having to bail out and settle for the hit.

No need to go for the knockout on a WR if you arrive a few steps before the ball does.

As for Berry, it will hurt his stock IMO if he's less than 5'10, that is he probably won't be a top 5 selection. But then again, if he has 8+ INTs next season, people won't care if he's 5'2.
It is a clean hit. The evidence is right there. You can play it back and watch it over and over. He leads with his shoulder. There was no helmet to helmet contact whatsoever. If you think it's helmet to helmet, you need your head checked and learn to play football.

Mays has average, possibly below average, hands. He's dropped a lot of potential INTs. His ball skills are also average. His range is incredible and his instincts are great, but the guy goes for the knock out blows far too often. He is rarely tested though.

parrish_lemar24DBSkins
05-01-2009, 10:42 PM
BigBanger, the helmet to helmet contact may have been unintentional, but Taylor Mays did hit that PSU WR in the head with his helmet.

Part of the reason was because the WR was already going to the turf to avoid the hit and Mays went high and they kind of met at the WR's head.

Mr. Hero
05-01-2009, 10:58 PM
You're still only talking about a couple guys despite a ridiculous abundance of Trojans all over the NFL.

I'm just talking about the guys I think we're really over-hyped, i'd have to be a fool not to recognize the tremendous play of ex trojans like lofa tatupu, troy P, steve smith, chris baker and many others, but the guys I mentioned where just a prime example of ESPN hype making a couple of guys over-rated. ANd me theory of why people hate on trojans. I have nothing against them and don't think I'm a trojan hater but there have been instances where some guys got huge hype who have shown that the didn't deserve as much hype as they got and that might be what's souring some people against some trojan prospects.

GhostDeini
05-02-2009, 01:07 AM
Taylor Mays is the single most overrated prospect I have seen since I started studying the NFL draft ( around 2002 ). Darnell Bing was the same prospect. USC even un-retired # 20 for Bing. He never played a single snap in the NFL. I read somewhere that from 00-06 31 Trojans were drafted, 16 are already out of the league. USC=Bust Central.

Mr. Hero
05-02-2009, 01:25 AM
Taylor Mays is the single most overrated prospect I have seen since I started studying the NFL draft ( around 2002 ). Darnell Bing was the same prospect. USC even un-retired # 20 for Bing. He never played a single snap in the NFL. I read somewhere that from 00-06 31 Trojans were drafted, 16 are already out of the league. USC=Bust Central.

that's ridiculous. Bing couldn't cover for **** and one of Mays' best strengths is how well he is able to roam and break up plays.

pr0d1gy
05-02-2009, 03:14 AM
Thanks for naming one bust, one guy who has actually helped his team a lot, and one guy that hasn't gotten a real chance yet. Thanks for not naming everyone else that is doing well. Hell, even Scott thinks Leinart will end up being great by sitting a couple years and for that I applaud him. People can have their opinions, but when the general membership of this forum rates a player down because he's a Trojan, it just irks me.

When the hell did an average of 1215 all purpose yards a year, an average of 210 touches a year, and an average of 6.67 TDs a year stand for bust? In my opinion, he doesn't under perform for where he was drafted. Saints knew who they were getting from the start and they've been smart enough to use him correctly.


I'm not going to get into the whole USC thing, but 6.67 TD's per season out of your #2 overall pick is nearly bust-ville.

whatadai
05-02-2009, 03:34 AM
Taylor Mays is the single most overrated prospect I have seen since I started studying the NFL draft ( around 2002 ). Darnell Bing was the same prospect. USC even un-retired # 20 for Bing. He never played a single snap in the NFL. I read somewhere that from 00-06 31 Trojans were drafted, 16 are already out of the league. USC=Bust Central.

That's the worse statistic ever. I bet the guy went and used Trojans drafted in the mid and late rounds too. Most of those guys come into the league with expectations that they'll play the average number of years or less in the NFL anyways, no matter what school they came from.

Not only that, I'm sure two players on that list that are considered busts are from the 2000 NFL draft. The draft BEFORE Pete Carroll became the USC head coach.

Darnell Bing was also NOT the same prospect as Taylor Mays. Bing can only hit hard. Everyone knew that when he came out of USC and that's why he was drafted to play as a linebacker and why Detroit is currently using him as a linebacker. He didn't have the speed, nor the vision, nor the coverage ability that Mays has. You're comparing a top 10 prospect to someone who wasn't even a first round prospect. And he's still in the league.

whatadai
05-02-2009, 03:38 AM
I'm not going to get into the whole USC thing, but 6.67 TD's per season out of your #2 overall pick is nearly bust-ville.

Because of injuries. It's funny how on this forum, a player "had potential, its just sad injuries got him", but when it's a Trojan, he's a bust even if his production is great when not injured.

In my opinion, Mays and Berry are close, but Mays is a better overall safety prospect with a higher floor and a higher ceiling. Except for anyone who is drinking some Trojan haterade or a homer.

It just irks me that it happens all the time. It's that underdog bandwagon mentality where people just wants to see a powerhouse fall to the underdog.

pr0d1gy
05-02-2009, 04:05 AM
Because of injuries. It's funny how on this forum, a player "had potential, its just sad injuries got him", but when it's a Trojan, he's a bust even if his production is great when not injured.

In my opinion, Mays and Berry are close, but Mays is a better overall safety prospect with a higher floor and a higher ceiling. Except for anyone who is drinking some Trojan haterade or a homer.

It just irks me that it happens all the time. It's that underdog bandwagon mentality where people just wants to see a powerhouse fall to the underdog.


Again, this is not a USC thing for me. It's an I said Bush was not a good pick that high due to his lack of ideal size and toughness back when he got drafted kind of thing. I watch Bush twice a year at least, Falcons fan here, and he is explosive but is not going to be an every down back without a GREAT O line in front of him. We got Jerious Norwood 2-3 rounds later and he has almost the same speed as Bush.

The reason people are hating on USC is because they, like most other great programs, only put out 1,2, or maybe 3 good NFL players in a draft. The difference is that USC is both getting a ton of other players drafted beyond those couple of real pros (see 4 LB's drafted out of USC this year, when you know at least 2 of them are gonna wash out), and they also get a ton of media from ESPN. The latter pisses people off more, guaranteed, but the former really pisses off fans of those teams who buy into the guys who don't stick.

I have wanted my team to pick some USC players and not some of the others and, looking back at who I wanted now, I am glad they didn't. It's not a knock on USC, but you need to get your homerism under check. I love UGA but nobody would take me seriously if I came in here asking why some people are hating on Stafford or Moreno.

whatadai
05-02-2009, 06:06 AM
Again, this is not a USC thing for me. It's an I said Bush was not a good pick that high due to his lack of ideal size and toughness back when he got drafted kind of thing. I watch Bush twice a year at least, Falcons fan here, and he is explosive but is not going to be an every down back without a GREAT O line in front of him. We got Jerious Norwood 2-3 rounds later and he has almost the same speed as Bush.

The reason people are hating on USC is because they, like most other great programs, only put out 1,2, or maybe 3 good NFL players in a draft. The difference is that USC is both getting a ton of other players drafted beyond those couple of real pros (see 4 LB's drafted out of USC this year, when you know at least 2 of them are gonna wash out), and they also get a ton of media from ESPN. The latter pisses people off more, guaranteed, but the former really pisses off fans of those teams who buy into the guys who don't stick.

I have wanted my team to pick some USC players and not some of the others and, looking back at who I wanted now, I am glad they didn't. It's not a knock on USC, but you need to get your homerism under check. I love UGA but nobody would take me seriously if I came in here asking why some people are hating on Stafford or Moreno.

How are 2 of the 4 LBs going to wash out? You haven't even seen them play in the NFL yet and you've already made your decision on what will happen. I look at Stafford and think he CAN become a great QB, but the Lions have a tendency to not be able to develop QBs, therefore I believe that they should sit him for a couple of years to learn and have a better chance of succeeding. I don't say he's going to wash out when I haven't seen him play a single snap in the NFL. Things like that are jabs at Trojans and it's annoying.

Matthews and Maualuga will succeed. Might not be big playmakers, but still above average starters. Cushing has the same potential, but if he washes out it will be because of injuries. Maiava has career backup potential.

CC.SD
05-02-2009, 09:53 AM
Taylor Mays is the single most overrated prospect I have seen since I started studying the NFL draft ( around 2002 ). Darnell Bing was the same prospect. USC even un-retired # 20 for Bing. He never played a single snap in the NFL. I read somewhere that from 00-06 31 Trojans were drafted, 16 are already out of the league. USC=Bust Central.

How can you expect other people to care about what you say, if you openly admit you can't tell the difference between Taylor Mays and Darnell Bing? Keep "studying" that draft, maybe eventually something will click.

Brent
05-02-2009, 09:55 AM
that's ridiculous. Bing couldn't cover for **** and one of Mays' best strengths is how well he is able to roam and break up plays.
Dont feed the trolls.

Mr. Hero
05-02-2009, 10:32 AM
Dont feed the trolls.

how else am i supposed to pay the troll toll?

Solomon
05-02-2009, 11:58 AM
I've seen him as well in person (albeit nearly two years ago) and can also say for almost certainty he is no taller than 5-9, maybe a shade under 5-10.

Don't get me wrong I absolutely love the guy. He was in my sig till my sig was removed a few days ago and I still feel that he is one of the best DB prospects in years.

However in a Taylor Mays VS Eric Berry thread a few weeks ago I said one of Berry's few cons was below average size but somebody else (VoodooMonkey I believe) refuted me based on his listed size. Which I really couldn't argue against based solely on my own experience and opinion.

I will admit that nobody really has any reason to believe me or the OP over a legitimate university athletic site so I can see why most people are just going to believe his listing of 5-11. The truth will come out sooner or later and I will certainly eat crow if I am wrong. That being said even if he is 5-9 he's still a beast, height certainly hasn't hurt Bob Sanders or Antoine Winfield in the pros.

Solomon
05-02-2009, 12:12 PM
Please save the excuses. Like I said before Kenny Phillips had a 3 int game. Reggie Nelson played 60 yards behind LOS, still made mad plays.

LMAO at using Kenny Phillips as an example. How many ints did he have in the rest of his 3 years and 32 starts? The answer: 4. He had only 1 other int that entire season other than the Duke game.

Also for everybody saying that Mays is the best physical speciman at safety since Sean Taylor. Nope that title belongs to Josh Barrett, 6-3 225 lbs legit 4.35 40 at the combine. He might not have been able to show his talents on the field but as a physical speciman he was absurd.

Brent
05-02-2009, 12:12 PM
how else am i supposed to pay the troll toll?
You dont pay a toll, you answer questions correctly.

CC.SD
05-02-2009, 12:26 PM
how else am i supposed to pay the troll toll?
http://www.younghollywood.com/media/new_players/44143148_1757655755_DannyDeVito-still.jpg

TROLL TOLL
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OutgI4XQ-Hs

pr0d1gy
05-02-2009, 12:37 PM
How are 2 of the 4 LBs going to wash out? You haven't even seen them play in the NFL yet and you've already made your decision on what will happen. I look at Stafford and think he CAN become a great QB, but the Lions have a tendency to not be able to develop QBs, therefore I believe that they should sit him for a couple of years to learn and have a better chance of succeeding. I don't say he's going to wash out when I haven't seen him play a single snap in the NFL. Things like that are jabs at Trojans and it's annoying.

Matthews and Maualuga will succeed. Might not be big playmakers, but still above average starters. Cushing has the same potential, but if he washes out it will be because of injuries. Maiava has career backup potential.

It's the law of averages, a common concept that most of us are familiar with. On average 2 out of those 4 guys are going to wash out, but it just pains me to have to explain common sense to people.

Addict
05-02-2009, 12:39 PM
It's the law of averages, a common concept that most of us are familiar with. On average 2 out of those 4 guys are going to wash out, but it just pains me to have to explain common sense to people.

That's not the law of averages, that's just your poor logic at work.

whatadai
05-02-2009, 01:34 PM
It's the law of averages, a common concept that most of us are familiar with. On average 2 out of those 4 guys are going to wash out, but it just pains me to have to explain common sense to people.
How is that even the law of averages? That can't work with the NFL draft unless you know the actual probability that a draftee would wash out. It's not a given that 50% of NFL draftees wash out, you made that statistic up. 50% doesn't always work for everything, the NFL draft isn't a coin flip.

parrish_lemar24DBSkins
05-02-2009, 03:52 PM
Odds are for this crop of USC 'backers, excluding injury, that they're all in the league six years from now.

Not one Dallas Sartz in the bunch, who was really the last USC starting LB who didn't stick in the pros.

Speaking of USC, I always thought Reggie Bush would compare highly to Marshall Faulk in the pros, but it's not even close.

Is it people's opinion that Bush simply isn't the RB that Faulk was, or something else.

My opinion in hindsight, without any in depth analysis, is that Faulk is simply a better player than Reggie Bush, period.

CC.SD
05-02-2009, 04:19 PM
Odds are for this crop of USC 'backers, excluding injury, that they're all in the league six years from now.

Not one Dallas Sartz in the bunch, who was really the last USC starting LB who didn't stick in the pros.

Speaking of USC, I always thought Reggie Bush would compare highly to Marshall Faulk in the pros, but it's not even close.

Is it people's opinion that Bush simply isn't the RB that Faulk was, or something else.

My opinion in hindsight, without any in depth analysis, is that Faulk is simply a better player than Reggie Bush, period.



Ouch, I am sorry Dallas, everyone knew it was coming though. I agree all of this year's crop will beast for a long time, they are really special. As for Reggie; I still think he has a shot at proving himself.

pr0d1gy
05-02-2009, 07:05 PM
How is that even the law of averages? That can't work with the NFL draft unless you know the actual probability that a draftee would wash out. It's not a given that 50% of NFL draftees wash out, you made that statistic up. 50% doesn't always work for everything, the NFL draft isn't a coin flip.

On average (when average is a median of x type of players over y amount of time), if a school has 4 linebackers drafted in a single draft then at least 2 of them will usually flop out. I could go hop on some other accounts and agree with myself, too, if I really cared what anyone here thought....

That is not to say they all won't stick around, but the likelihood of that happening is about 50 to 1.

Are you guys USC fans or something?

parrish_lemar24DBSkins
05-02-2009, 10:17 PM
I'm far from a USC fan, but I do respect the program overall and the product they put on the field on Saturdays.

What I hate is excessive hype, but USC has no peer out West, so what are you gonna do?

Also, it's hard to crunch players into a statistical model and predict which ones will succeed or fail, there are too many other independent variables involved to be predictive in any relevant sort of way.

Ultimately football outcomes are decided on the field, not what's written on paper.

pr0d1gy
05-03-2009, 12:04 AM
I'm far from a USC fan, but I do respect the program overall and the product they put on the field on Saturdays.

What I hate is excessive hype, but USC has no peer out West, so what are you gonna do?

Also, it's hard to crunch players into a statistical model and predict which ones will succeed or fail, there are too many other independent variables involved to be predictive in any relevant sort of way.

Ultimately football outcomes are decided on the field, not what's written on paper.


Yeah, well it isn't difficult to see which ones will be great coming out, honestly. One thing I like about USC draft picks is you can be about 99% sure what you are getting and there are very few character issues.

whatadai
05-03-2009, 12:47 AM
I could go hop on some other accounts and agree with myself, too,

Are you saying that I'm Addict and I'm using 2 accounts? LOL.

On average (when average is a median of x type of players over y amount of time), if a school has 4 linebackers drafted in a single draft then at least 2 of them will usually flop out.
That's not the law of averages. The law of averages says that if the probability of a coin flip landing on heads is 50%, then overtime, if you keep flipping that coin, you will get closer and closer to 50% heads. Like coin flips, individual players' success are mutually exclusive. It's a logical fallacy.

The median of 4 linebackers? What? Your formula makes no sense.

Addict
05-03-2009, 05:15 AM
On average (when average is a median of x type of players over y amount of time), if a school has 4 linebackers drafted in a single draft then at least 2 of them will usually flop out. I could go hop on some other accounts and agree with myself, too, if I really cared what anyone here thought....

That is not to say they all won't stick around, but the likelihood of that happening is about 50 to 1.

Are you guys USC fans or something?

I'm no USC fan (and I don't have double accounts) but I do think your math is flawed. Have you actually done the calculations to support this far-fetched thesis or are you just throwing words and numbers around to make it look like you know what you're talking about (I'm unimpressed by the way).

Also: 50 to 1? You're just pulling numbers out of your ass at this point.

pr0d1gy
05-03-2009, 11:03 AM
I'm no USC fan (and I don't have double accounts) but I do think your math is flawed. Have you actually done the calculations to support this far-fetched thesis or are you just throwing words and numbers around to make it look like you know what you're talking about (I'm unimpressed by the way).

Also: 50 to 1? You're just pulling numbers out of your ass at this point.


Yeah man, I'm not the NFL Network's statistician but I doubt I am too far off. I'm actually probably going a little easy on on the numbers, honestly. I would love to see some calculations of teams with multiple LB's selected in the draft and how many of them actually were starters in this league for more than a year or two.

Either way, thanks for the support in the other thread and sorry if my point is turning into a numbers discussion as it was meant to just make a point. That point being that it is almost unheard of for a college to have 4 LB's picked in the draft, and I'm just saying that typically not all of those players will be consistent starters in the NFL.

CC.SD
05-03-2009, 11:40 AM
On average (when average is a median of x type of players over y amount of time), if a school has 4 linebackers drafted in a single draft then at least 2 of them will usually flop out. I could go hop on some other accounts and agree with myself, too, if I really cared what anyone here thought....

That is not to say they all won't stick around, but the likelihood of that happening is about 50 to 1.

Are you guys USC fans or something?

This seems like complete conjecture to me, do you have examples? I don't think they'd apply because we're talking about individual people in a different draft class, but maybe it would give your argument a little more punch.

"About" 50 to 1 odds, hm? Are you sure you don't want to go with 49? :D 53? 432?

Mr. Hero
05-03-2009, 01:08 PM
That's not the law of averages, that's just your poor logic at work.

Let me try and explain this. Since each linebacker will either bust or he won't the probability of him busting is 50/50, ergo if you multiplicate those odds times the 4 USC LBs selected 2 will bust...or prodigy might just be a short bus rider being groomed to pilot the ****** rocket in fifteen years.

Addict
05-03-2009, 01:59 PM
Yeah man, I'm not the NFL Network's statistician but I doubt I am too far off. I'm actually probably going a little easy on on the numbers, honestly. I would love to see some calculations of teams with multiple LB's selected in the draft and how many of them actually were starters in this league for more than a year or two.

I'd like to see those numbers too, but it's a nearly impossible task to do that. Besides you shouldn't throw numbers out as facts if you just dream them up.

[QUOTE=pr0d1gy;1643749]Either way, thanks for the support in the other thread and sorry if my point is turning into a numbers discussion as it was meant to just make a point. That point being that it is almost unheard of for a college to have 4 LB's picked in the draft, and I'm just saying that typically not all of those players will be consistent starters in the NFL.

you're welcome, and yes it may be rare for it to happen, but stranger things have happened and there's absolutely no reason to discard these players as busts before they played a single season, and even less of a reason to say USC is bust central. Trust me when I say that ESPN isn't the guiding factor amongst NFL FO's. USC players aren't drafted higher or lower because of ESPN... they may be more visible for fans, but that's about it. NFL GM's (except maybe Matt Millen :D) make their calls based on professional scouts, not some sports tv network.

Paranoidmoonduck
05-03-2009, 02:08 PM
Let me try and explain this. Since each linebacker will either bust or he won't the probability of him busting is 50/50, ergo if you multiplicate those odds times the 4 USC LBs selected 2 will bust...or prodigy might just be a short bus rider being groomed to pilot the ****** rocket in fifteen years.

Which would make sense if the "law of averages" was a real theorem or even made sense in a small sample size like the one here.

There is no law of averages (only a Law of Large Numbers) and the probability of whether a 2009 drafted USC linebacker will bust is not 50/50 (the probability is essentially an unknown and no number given could be proven).

I'm no Math major, but anyone who's taken statistics should know this.

Mr. Hero
05-03-2009, 02:16 PM
Which would make sense if the "law of averages" was a real theorem or even made sense in a small sample size like the one here.

There is no law of averages (only a Law of Large Numbers) and the probability of whether a 2009 drafted USC linebacker will bust is not 50/50 (the probability is essentially an unknown and no number given could be proven).

I'm no Math major, but anyone who's taken statistics should know this.

I know, I was just trying to reproduce the bass-ackwards logic that could have led him to that comment.

Paranoidmoonduck
05-03-2009, 02:19 PM
I know, I was just trying to reproduce the bass-ackwards logic that could have led him to that comment.

Roger that, I figured I'd expand on why he's so wrong.

whatadai
05-03-2009, 02:22 PM
Let me try and explain this. Since each linebacker will either bust or he won't the probability of him busting is 50/50, ergo if you multiplicate those odds times the 4 USC LBs selected 2 will bust...or prodigy might just be a short bus rider being groomed to pilot the ****** rocket in fifteen years.

What you don't get is it's mutually exclusive. Every linebacker has a 50% chance to bust, if the first two linebackers don't bust, it doesn't mean that the other two will. The level of success any of the linebackers experience won't affect the others. Therefore you can't just multiply .5 to the number of linebackers to know how many will bust.

There's also a difference between bust, career backup/journeyman, and viable starter/not living up to draft position. So it's not even 50% chance of being "washed out" like he said. Not only that, one of the linebackers were drafted in the 4th round. If he plays for over 3.5 years, the average NFL career, then he actually doesn't bust for a 4th rounder.

d34ng3l021
05-03-2009, 02:33 PM
So...Eric Berry huh?

whatadai
05-03-2009, 02:48 PM
So...Eric Berry huh?

In my opinion, not as good in coverage as most people probably believe. Taylor Mays hits harder, misses more tackles than Berry due to it. Taylor Mays' coverage ability isn't easy to gouge due to him not being placed in coverage as much. Mays has a higher floor and higher ceiling.

bigbluedefense
05-03-2009, 02:58 PM
I'll take Taylor Mays for now, but I need to see more of Berry.

Mays is the best safety prospect i've seen since Sean Taylor. He's a beast. Berry seems very opportunistic, but he doesn't have the speed, or hitting ability of Mays.

Mays shut down the deep ball all by himself at USC. And hits like a truck. Put him in a defense that doesn't have him play deep Cover 1 all the time, and he'd make a ton of plays.


Id take Mays all day every day. But if Berry shows me something, I'll reconsider. But for now, Mays all day.

d34ng3l021
05-03-2009, 02:58 PM
In my opinion, not as good in coverage as most people probably believe. Taylor Mays hits harder, misses more tackles than Berry due to it. Taylor Mays' coverage ability isn't easy to gouge due to him not being placed in coverage as much. Mays has a higher floor and higher ceiling.

I think their roles are slightly different. I don't know too much about Eric Berry yet to be honest, but I know that Taylor Mays has the ability to play in the deep zone every play and prevent the big play, like Ed Reed and LaRon Landry. He might be more in the field of LaRon Landry because Landry produces solid-good results but isn't going to make flashy plays like Reed manages to do. Eric Berry seems like a playmaker.

Damn. I want Taylor Mays on the Falcons so much. Wow.

Sniper
05-03-2009, 02:59 PM
Eric Berry could be a lockdown CB if he wanted to. His versatility is unmatched.

1. Eric Berry
1a. Taylor Mays

Can't go wrong with either.

CashmoneyDrew
05-03-2009, 03:51 PM
Where is this myth coming from that Eric Berry isn't fast?

Sniper
05-03-2009, 03:53 PM
Where is this myth coming from that Eric Berry isn't fast?

He has to be fast. HE HAZ SECCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCC SPEEEEEEEEDZZZZZZZZ!

;)

It probably comes from the same place as "Eric Berry isn't that great at covering" comes from.

CashmoneyDrew
05-03-2009, 04:11 PM
He has to be fast. HE HAZ SECCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCC SPEEEEEEEEDZZZZZZZZ!

;)

It probably comes from the same place as "Eric Berry isn't that great at covering" comes from.

I feel like I might have to break out some youtube video and disprove these things. As well as Berry not being a big-hitter....

GhostDeini
05-03-2009, 04:58 PM
This is what makes me throw up..."I need to see more of Berry", "Berry doesnt have the speed or hitting ability." The 1000000th doesnt make plays due to scheme excuse. And finally "If Berry shows me something". Now I can tell who WATCHES football instead of busting nuts about a guys measureables on a piece of paper.

bigbluedefense
05-03-2009, 05:07 PM
I don't think anyone is saying Berry doesn't have speed or hitting ability. Just that compared to Mays, he's neither faster, nor hits as hard.

Which are both true. So I don't see why everyone is getting their panties in a bunch. Nobody is saying "he suckzz and can't hit111"


Anyone who thinks scheme doesn't play a role in this has never played Cover 1 or Cover 2. Play safety in both defenses, then come back to me about schemezzzz and tell me theres no difference.

Volsman98
05-03-2009, 05:27 PM
If Mays is faster than Berry it is not by much. Berry is 4.3-4.4 speed. He ran multiple 4.3s at combines in high school with a cast on his hand. He is still fast as can be and he hits close to as hard as Mays. Go look at his big hit highlights. Also, he is just a better safety than Mays. Mays may have a slight advantage in the athletic ability advantage and an advantage in size, but as a football player Berry is way ahead of him.

Highlights - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YIfRBFALl2E
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gnB2TvnGt4I&feature=related

Big Hits - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bZKTaC9-jDQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kMI4qj0pj3E
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yvro9N3LKfI&feature=related

parrish_lemar24DBSkins
05-03-2009, 05:37 PM
There are absolutely no holes in Eric Berry's game.

Sure, it would be great if he were bigger, but don't be surprised after next season to see him compared frequently to Ed Reed. Every team in the NFL wants a ballhawk safety like Reed roaming the secondary, and Eric Berry is the next big thing.

Also, be prepared to hear the argument that Taylor Mays is a great athlete, but not a great safety. There's credence to this point of view because for an elite prospect, no matter what scheme he plays in, Mays simply doesn't make enough plays.

Sure his first responsibility is to protect against the deep ball, but elite safeties with his measurables are able to read where the ball is going early and react to where they should be to make the play.

I'm curious if he played in a scheme that had him closer to the line of scrimmage, or switching him to SS, would allow Mays to be involved in more plays on the ball.

This upcoming season will be big for him; his stock can either stay the same, drop a couple picks with a mediocre season, or elevate himself into the top 5 with a career year.

Nalej
05-03-2009, 05:37 PM
That 360 hit on the Bama WR was sick. Look like helmet to helmet though

whatadai
05-03-2009, 06:08 PM
If Mays is faster than Berry it is not by much. Berry is 4.3-4.4 speed. He ran multiple 4.3s at combines in high school with a cast on his hand. He is still fast as can be and he hits close to as hard as Mays. Go look at his big hit highlights. Also, he is just a better safety than Mays. Mays may have a slight advantage in the athletic ability advantage and an advantage in size, but as a football player Berry is way ahead of him.

Highlights - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YIfRBFALl2E
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gnB2TvnGt4I&feature=related

Big Hits - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bZKTaC9-jDQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kMI4qj0pj3E
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yvro9N3LKfI&feature=related
He can't cover as well as everyone says in my opinion. Like someone said up there, he's opportunistic, a lot of times his teammate makes a play that allows him to get that tackle, deflection, or interception. Though, I'm not saying he's horrible at it.

I'm sorry but those 3 videos you posted for his big hits could've been the worse ones. Helmet to helmet fun on two of them and he throws his helmet into his chest in the second video. Anyone can make a hard hit by using their helmet. He's not using his head right. Again, not saying he can't hit hard, but he doesn't hit as hard as Mays and Mays isn't perfect at it either, but his big hits are more precise in my opinion.

Mr. Hero
05-03-2009, 06:53 PM
What you don't get is it's mutually exclusive. Every linebacker has a 50% chance to bust, if the first two linebackers don't bust, it doesn't mean that the other two will. The level of success any of the linebackers experience won't affect the others. Therefore you can't just multiply .5 to the number of linebackers to know how many will bust.

There's also a difference between bust, career backup/journeyman, and viable starter/not living up to draft position. So it's not even 50% chance of being "washed out" like he said. Not only that, one of the linebackers were drafted in the 4th round. If he plays for over 3.5 years, the average NFL career, then he actually doesn't bust for a 4th rounder.

not only did fail at sensing the sarcasm oozing out of that post but your attempt to educate me was just as full of fail since you didn't notice the major flaw in my "he either busts or he doesn't ergo 50/50" comment, if you still don't get it taht line of thinking isn't stupid because there's more than two options it's stupid because it's just mathematically ridiculous and even the most simple statistics class should illustrate how illogical it is. You have just made me weep for our children, are you happy now?

Mr. Hero
05-03-2009, 06:58 PM
Roger that, I figured I'd expand on why he's so wrong.

roger roger

Volsman98
05-03-2009, 07:10 PM
He can't cover as well as everyone says in my opinion. Like someone said up there, he's opportunistic, a lot of times his teammate makes a play that allows him to get that tackle, deflection, or interception. Though, I'm not saying he's horrible at it.

I'm sorry but those 3 videos you posted for his big hits could've been the worse ones. Helmet to helmet fun on two of them and he throws his helmet into his chest in the second video. Anyone can make a hard hit by using their helmet. He's not using his head right. Again, not saying he can't hit hard, but he doesn't hit as hard as Mays and Mays isn't perfect at it either, but his big hits are more precise in my opinion.

Firstly, what are you basing your judgment of his coverage on? You have been watching him match up 1 on 1 with WRs? I'm going to guess not. Secondly, you are going to degrade his big hits because you don't like the way he uses his head? The first one and third one he uses his shoulder and the second one is just awesome. I'll take a precise big hit over a hit that isn't big...I mean what do you want from him? He hits harder than most any safeties in college football, and those are just a few of them. Watching every UT game for 2 years, I think he uses his head fine considering he knocks the snot out of people and never gets hurt doing it. His only injury is a bad shoulder he has had since his senior year in high school. He has been doing all of that with a bum shoulder. You can dog his big hits, but if he isn't getting hurt and he is legally hurting other people, I love it.

whatadai
05-03-2009, 07:59 PM
Firstly, what are you basing your judgment of his coverage on? You have been watching him match up 1 on 1 with WRs? I'm going to guess not. Secondly, you are going to degrade his big hits because you don't like the way he uses his head? The first one and third one he uses his shoulder and the second one is just awesome. I'll take a precise big hit over a hit that isn't big...I mean what do you want from him? He hits harder than most any safeties in college football, and those are just a few of them. Watching every UT game for 2 years, I think he uses his head fine considering he knocks the snot out of people and never gets hurt doing it. His only injury is a bad shoulder he has had since his senior year in high school. He has been doing all of that with a bum shoulder. You can dog his big hits, but if he isn't getting hurt and he is legally hurting other people, I love it.
Like I said, Mays and Berry have the same problems, lowering their head too low for the big hit and missing or hitting with their helmet. Mays has more of a problem with missing while Berry has more of a problem with hitting with his helmet. While Mays misses more due to it, I would call Mays more precise because he would be less likely to get a flag that way. While Mays does miss tackles due to it, he actually doesn't miss that many. And the way Mays lowers his head too much sometimes should be fixed, but in no way has it caused him to give up a big play.

Using their head to hit like that means higher chances of getting injuries in the NFL and higher chances of helmet-to-helmet or spearing penalties. I don't care if he knocks the ball out of the guy hitting like that. Giving the opponent the ball back, a 1st down, and 15 yards is going to piss me off. I never said Berry is horrible at big hits nor that he's not one of the best big hitters in college right now; I said Mays is better at it.

Berry has actually played man a couple of times, not for whole games. While he's not horrible, which I didn't say he is, he's not as good in coverage as everyone says he is, IN MY OPINION. Most of the coverage plays he makes in man coverage are just horrible passing or miscommunication between the quarterback and receiver. In double coverage, his big plays are usually created with the help of someone else, I know that is the point, but it doesn't make him a great coverage safety like so many people are making him out to be.

Like I said during the whole post and the ones before. I didn't say he's horrible or that he sucks. I'm saying that he's overrated on his coverage ability and that Mays is better on big hits.

The 3 videos that were shown as big hits all had helmet contact. It's really obvious in my opinion and if you don't see it, there's no way to change your vision so you can see what you want.

superman
05-03-2009, 08:42 PM
I think their roles are slightly different. I don't know too much about Eric Berry yet to be honest, but I know that Taylor Mays has the ability to play in the deep zone every play and prevent the big play, like Ed Reed and LaRon Landry. He might be more in the field of LaRon Landry because Landry produces solid-good results but isn't going to make flashy plays like Reed manages to do. Eric Berry seems like a playmaker.

Damn. I want Taylor Mays on the Falcons so much. Wow.

william moore and taylor mays would be scary

Paranoidmoonduck
05-03-2009, 08:53 PM
I'm not sure I buy the argument that Mays is a flat out better cover man than Berry. Mays has gobs of experience playing deep zone coverage and is about as good as it out of college as any safety I've seen, but we know next to nothing about him in man coverage and from watching him in pursuit, he doesn't have very good hips. He's got great speed for his size, and so you figure he could handle some man, but in general his natural instincts close to the LOS appear iffy.

Like I've said, I really do want to see more of Berry. I've seen him play safety twice and some corner once, and I was only closely on one of those games. I've caught some footage above and beyond that, but highlights are highlights (useful in only very particular ways). Anyway, from what I have seen, Berry does have that natural instinct I fail to see from Mays. He's not great in man coverage, but he retains that tenacity and made it work in the time I've seen him. In the NFL, where corners need to be really careful about their level of physicality, he probably wouldn't survive. But there's not a huge amount of concern there, as I feel he's a safety all the way. Berry should get a lot of credit for his comfort playing either man or zone in the intermediate pass defense. He makes his reads really quickly and acts on them decisively. I could go on, but this is extrapolating from a much smaller amount of game tape than I've watched on Mays.

As I've said before, from what I know of both players, Berry is my favorite. I like Mays a lot for what he does, but I caution people against assuming that just because he's a great athlete means he can expand his game effortlessly in the NFL. The hope is that USC uses him a little bit different since Ellison has left and we actually get to see him try and do a wider range of things.

BaLLiN
05-03-2009, 09:04 PM
i havent seen taylor mays play that much, but i feel like berry is a better antisipator and makes plays even if a mistake isnt made.

Eric Berry- Ed Reed

CC.SD
05-03-2009, 09:42 PM
I'm biased but I take Mays every time between the two, SEC Speedz or not. Taylor is a mack truck that can shut down the back end, with elite everything-measurable. Berry might be amazing but he's just a man, Taylor was actually held upside down in the River Styx as a baby.

Saints-Tigers
05-03-2009, 09:42 PM
Mays is more reputation over results as a big hitter. He's really big, and he's laid a few big hits in his time(but not nearly as many as he could have), so people have this vision of him as some Ronnie Lott type, laying guys out all over the field.

Stop comparing him to Landry's "lack of flashy plays", like I said, people keep saying he didn't put up numbers, much like LaRon, but LaRon's production dwarfed Taylor's, it's a terrible comparison, and Taylor's actual anticipation and ability to read plays isn't close to Landry's was in college, and Berry is even ahead of LaRon.

As far instincts, anticipation, football IQ, dissecting plays quickly, ETC, the only safety we've seen in college at Berry's level is Ed Reed, and then we had another guy with outrageous athleticism, but still really good instincts in Sean Taylor. Mays isn't really that close to them in these categories.

CashmoneyDrew
05-03-2009, 09:45 PM
The 3 videos that were shown as big hits all had helmet contact. It's really obvious in my opinion and if you don't see it, there's no way to change your vision so you can see what you want.

Absolutely none of those hits were dirty or illegal. He lead with his shoulder on all three. And no, it's not really obvious that they were helmet to helmet because he didn't get flagged on any of those when they happened.

Volsman98
05-03-2009, 09:57 PM
Like I said, Mays and Berry have the same problems, lowering their head too low for the big hit and missing or hitting with their helmet. Mays has more of a problem with missing while Berry has more of a problem with hitting with his helmet. While Mays misses more due to it, I would call Mays more precise because he would be less likely to get a flag that way. While Mays does miss tackles due to it, he actually doesn't miss that many. And the way Mays lowers his head too much sometimes should be fixed, but in no way has it caused him to give up a big play.

Using their head to hit like that means higher chances of getting injuries in the NFL and higher chances of helmet-to-helmet or spearing penalties. I don't care if he knocks the ball out of the guy hitting like that. Giving the opponent the ball back, a 1st down, and 15 yards is going to piss me off. I never said Berry is horrible at big hits nor that he's not one of the best big hitters in college right now; I said Mays is better at it.

Berry has actually played man a couple of times, not for whole games. While he's not horrible, which I didn't say he is, he's not as good in coverage as everyone says he is, IN MY OPINION. Most of the coverage plays he makes in man coverage are just horrible passing or miscommunication between the quarterback and receiver. In double coverage, his big plays are usually created with the help of someone else, I know that is the point, but it doesn't make him a great coverage safety like so many people are making him out to be.

Like I said during the whole post and the ones before. I didn't say he's horrible or that he sucks. I'm saying that he's overrated on his coverage ability and that Mays is better on big hits.

The 3 videos that were shown as big hits all had helmet contact. It's really obvious in my opinion and if you don't see it, there's no way to change your vision so you can see what you want.


I'm not trying to be a homer because I obviously am a UT fan, but what are you basing his coverage ability on? Have you been scouting him? Do you watch his 1 vs 1 with WR. I will tell you that you would have to watch every play of every game to have any idea of his man coverage ability because he rarely, if ever, plays man against anyone in our defense with Chavis. Actually, I'm going to completely call bs on that because I don't think I can ever remember him maning up on anyone in a game. If you can tell me anytime you have seen him do that, I'm all ears. The only way I can base my judgment is by what he does in practice and what he did in high school. There is no way anyone in here can say that in their opinion he doesn't have great man coverage skills. The only time he has ever played man, he is lined up 15 yards off the man to begin with.

He may get a lot of interceptions off other peoples plays, but an interception is an interception. I don't think he has gotten lucky 12 times in 2 years. There is obviously something to it. I don't care if he is picking off out routes or picking off a tipped ball. If he is getting the ball back, he is getting the ball back.

In regards to the hitting, I have never seen Berry get a personal foul for helmet to helmet contact. Not once can I remember. If I am wrong, I will admit it if anyone can remember a time. You are basing his tackling on 3 big hit highlights of him. He is 5'11 205? The only way he is going to have a highlight hit is leaping his entire body into a man. That takes balls, plus he does it very well. The videos are not helmet to helmet. He may have hit his against theirs a little bit, but he is leading with his shoulder. Of course sometimes they are going to hit helmets a little bit, but he is making almost all contact with his shoulder.

And one other thing people are forgetting about is Berry's interception return ability. He has almost broken the NCAA record, and he is a sophomore. He is only a handful of yards away and he has played 2 years. That is absolutely ridiculous. Mays has only had like what, 40 yards off interception returns through 3 years?

Stat Comparison
Berry - 80 tckls/yr - 158 total
Mays - 60 tckls/yr - 180 total

Berry - 1.5 sacks/yr - 3 total
Mays - 0 sacks/yr - 0 total

Berry - .5 fumbles forced/yr - 1 total
Mays - .3 fumbles forced/yr - 1 total

Berry - 6 int/yr - 12 total
Mays - 1.3 int/yr - 4 total

Berry - 243.5 int return yrds/yr - 487 total
Mays - 13.3 int return yrds/yr - 40 total

Berry - 1.5 tds/yr (all defensive) - 3 total
Mays - 0 tds/yr - 0 total

pr0d1gy
05-03-2009, 10:32 PM
Look man, anyone who doubts Berry can certainly have a right to their opinion, but I will feel the need to interject on this subject as I watch tons of SEC football being a UGA alum. On that note, I think you should all know that Berry has been everything you could ever want out of a blue chip high school prospect coming to UT. He has been a starter for quite some time, maybe since game 1, and has been nothing short of spectacular against both the pass and the run. The guy is a physical coverage safety of the first degree, along the lines of a Troy Polamalu or Bob Sanders. I doubt he would ever be the huge playmaker in the NFL that guys like Ed Reed and Sean Taylor are & were (R.I.P. man), but he could be an invaluable asset to a good D.

Now, keep in mind he will need to continue his stellar play in this SEC in order to keep his status, but right now he is a no doubt top 10 pick. Oh and, not to toot my own horn but I wanted my Dawgs to bring him to Athens SO BAD!

pr0d1gy
05-03-2009, 10:38 PM
Things like that are jabs at Trojans and it's annoying.



The more you carry on the less people respect you and your opinion. This is not about USC, and I have nothing against USC players. I thought Mike Williams was going to be great in the NFL....?

parrish_lemar24DBSkins
05-03-2009, 10:44 PM
Yeah, I thought Mike Williams was going to own the NFL too and be a redzone TD machine.


I guess he had more in common with Maurice Clarett than we thought.

pr0d1gy
05-04-2009, 12:01 AM
Yeah, I thought Mike Williams was going to own the NFL too and be a redzone TD machine.


I guess he had more in common with Maurice Clarett than we thought.

Watch out, all the Ohio State homers are gonna flame you for saying 1 out of 2 RB's don't pan out.

Sniper
05-04-2009, 07:28 AM
Watch out, all the Ohio State homers are gonna flame you for saying 1 out of 2 RB's don't pan out.

To be honest, who was the last Ohio State RB to do anything in the pros? Eddie George?

whatadai
05-04-2009, 10:19 AM
The more you carry on the less people respect you and your opinion. This is not about USC, and I have nothing against USC players. I thought Mike Williams was going to be great in the NFL....?

Oh yes, people don't like my opinion because I actually watch players and analyze them in my own way. They probably don't agree with my analysis of Berry, but to each his own.

Your analysis however is pulling numbers out of your ass to prove that USC is bust central.

pr0d1gy
05-04-2009, 05:47 PM
Oh yes, people don't like my opinion because I actually watch players and analyze them in my own way. They probably don't agree with my analysis of Berry, but to each his own.

Your analysis however is pulling numbers out of your ass to prove that USC is bust central.

Again, it has nothing to do with USC. It is just the law of averages throughout the draft. If I have to say this to you again I am just going to have to write you off as a mentally disturbed USC fan that is more concerned with USC than the draft forum.

Your analysis, like the rest of ours, is based off speculation and broadcast television videos; whereas the actual draft professionals have game tape to breakdown the players individually.....so please don't come at me with this crazy "I watch hours of game tape" crap.

To be honest, who was the last Ohio State RB to do anything in the pros? Eddie George?

Dude, you obviously missed the sarcasm dripping from the post I made....

whatadai
05-04-2009, 06:01 PM
Again, it has nothing to do with USC. It is just the law of averages throughout the draft. If I have to say this to you again I am just going to have to write you off as a mentally disturbed USC fan that is more concerned with USC than the draft forum.

Your analysis, like the rest of ours, is based off speculation and broadcast television videos; whereas the actual draft professionals have game tape to breakdown the players individually.....so please don't come at me with this crazy "I watch hours of game tape" crap.



Dude, you obviously missed the sarcasm dripping from the post I made....
I never said I watch hours of game tape, but I have seen UT games and that's how I've analyzed them. I'm pretty sure most of the people here haven't seen hours of gametape either, yet somehow they're allowed to speak their opinion?

The law of averages, as I've said before, is a logical fallacy. If you know anything about statistics you would stop bringing the law of averages up to support your theory that 1/2 of the USC linebackers will wash out.

And stop it with the personal attacks, I am not "mentally disturbed" just because I have my own opinion and don't agree with all of the forum's popular opinions on every single player. And yes I am a USC fan, but I still analyze a player, not base my beliefs on their future success on faulty math. I also never said Eric Berry sucks, my argument has always been that Mays is better. I also never said all 4 USC linebackers will go on to become 10-time pro bowlers. I wasn't concerned with USC on this topic until someone had to go and say Mays will bust and so will 1/2 of 2009 USC linebackers just because USC is "bust central" and because of a logical fallacy.

I'm not showing hatred towards any school, unlike someone.

CC.SD
05-04-2009, 06:02 PM
Again, it has nothing to do with USC. It is just the law of averages throughout the draft. If I have to say this to you again I am just going to have to write you off as a mentally disturbed USC fan that is more concerned with USC than the draft forum.

Your analysis, like the rest of ours, is based off speculation and broadcast television videos; whereas the actual draft professionals have game tape to breakdown the players individually.....so please don't come at me with this crazy "I watch hours of game tape" crap.



Dude, you obviously missed the sarcasm dripping from the post I made....


I get that you're trying to shut this down, but you were still making up numbers earlier and I don't know why you keep bringing up the law of averages. The law of averages is about taking the probability of a certain event and projecting it over a larger sample size...but in the NFL draft the probability of success isn't the same for all players, or any player. Certain attributes result in more desirable players and as a result they're drafted higher. The only way to apply the law of averages to the chances of linebackers from USC having success would be if you believed they were all the exact same player/person. Which is clearly not the case.

That's my opinion anyway.

whatadai
05-04-2009, 06:17 PM
I get that you're trying to shut this down, but you were still making up numbers earlier and I don't know why you keep bringing up the law of averages. The law of averages is about taking the probability of a certain event and projecting it over a larger sample size...but in the NFL draft the probability of success isn't the same for all players, or any player. Certain attributes result in more desirable players and as a result they're drafted higher. The only way to apply the law of averages to the chances of linebackers from USC having success would be if you believed they were all the exact same player/person. Which is clearly not the case.

That's my opinion anyway.

Thank god someone understands. I believe he thinks the law of averages is something like this...

Since a player can only wash out or not, the probability of each happening is "pulling it out of my ass" 50%. Therefore, multiply it by the number of players from the same position and from the same school and 2 USC linebackers drafted in 2009 will surely washout. Ignore all the linebackers drafted in the years before and all the USC players drafted in 2009 and in the past. Also ignore the fact that they're mutually exclusive.

So if that's correct...babies have a chance of either living or dying. Since there are only two options, living and dying, it's a "pulling it out of my ass" 50% chance of either happening. So if I have 4 kids, 2 of them will surely die. When will they die? I don't know since the law of averages doesn't tell me, but they'll surely die.

HawkEye30
05-04-2009, 06:17 PM
soooooo eric berry to the seahawks anyone?? haha its #1 on the wish list