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nobodyinparticular
05-03-2009, 08:49 PM
After the draft, I read (I believe on CBS Sportsline) someone say that Donovan McNabb is a "future Hall of Famer." This seemed preposterous to me when I first read it, but I thought that my memory of his number were errant. After looking at his numbers, coming from such a pass-heavy offense, I feel the claim is just as preposterous as it was before. Donovan McNabb has been a good QB in the NFL, but he has never been good enough in his era to consider him a Hall of Fame player. If he were to retire right now, I would say there is no way that he should get inducted. Even if he continued for the next 4 years along the same path, I do not believe he should be considered any more than a guy like Matt Hasselbeck or Rich Gannon.

What do you guys think?

Mr. Hero
05-03-2009, 08:54 PM
I agree with you completely. He's a franchise QB in that he's a guy who you can trust at the QB position and that you won't have to worry about replacing but he's not an all time great and thus doesn't deserve to be in the HoF.

Shane P. Hallam
05-03-2009, 08:59 PM
I think he can be if he plays 2-3 more years as the starter. He isn't all that different from Jim Kelly. What's the difference? Winning like 2 or 3 more games? Taking him alone, I agree with you both, but I can see the argument as he has provided numbers just as good (with a few more years tacked on,) and had almost as much success as other HOF QBs.

eaglesalltheway
05-03-2009, 09:20 PM
Right now, McNabb would unquestionably not be a HOF QB, and I am one of his biggest fans. He just hasn't done enough for it, and though he has been one of the top QBs in recent years, he is nowhere near HOF calibur. He will need at least 3 more seasons of great production and a Championship to be in, IMO. He still can get in, but it'd take a lot.

CC.SD
05-03-2009, 09:34 PM
I have been saying he has a solid shot for years now. He's not in yet, but he could be with a few more years of production.

tjsunstein
05-03-2009, 10:06 PM
I know these things are gonna get kind of old after a while when people just put [insert player name][insert question and question mark] but I feel like McNabb almost has a shot at being a Hall of Famer. Living in the Philadelphia area, I feel like McNabb is greatly underappreciated.

He was drafted in 1999 over Ricky Williams which started the whole thing but he has given the Philadelphia area some consistency, whether they appreciate it or not. You could say the same things you do about Big Ben on how his defense led the team some of these years. Fact is, Andy Reid has drawn up 60 percent passing plays in the last 5 years.

- He is the Eagles' all-time leader in career wins, pass attempts, pass completions, passing yards, and passing touchdowns
- Four consecutive NFC East division championships (2001, 2002, 2003, and 2004)
- Five NFC Championship Games (1-4) Joined Ken Stabler (Raiders), Jim Kelly (Bills) and Troy Aikman (Cowboys), in 2004, as the only QBs since 1970 to take their teams to four or more consecutive conference championship games.
- A Super Bow birth (L to the Pats)
- 194 TDs: 90 INTs (Third Best all time ratio[2.16] behind Brady and Young)
- 29,320 Passing yards
- 58.9 Completion percentage
- 85.9 QB Rating
- In his first full season as a NFL starter in 2000, McNabb finished second in the Associated Press MVP voting (24-11) to St. Louis RB Marshall Faulk, who set the NFL record for most TDs scored in a season.
- Forget the TO controversy, TO carries it everywhere, thats apparent.
- Limited Weapons
- Became the first player in NFL history to finish a season with 30+ TD passes (31) and fewer than 10 INTs (8) in 2004
- Became the 4th-fastest QB in NFL history to reach the 50-win plateau in just 71 starts, vs. Bal. (10/31/04)
- One of 6 players in NFL history to have amassed over 25,000 passing yards (29,320) and 3,000 rushing yards (3,109)
- NFC Pro Bowl squad - 2001-05


They were debating this on the local news last night here. The consensus is if he were to stop playing right now, he would not be. But, 5 more years of production, he would have to be atleast considered. He doesnt have a ring or an MVP award so if he were to get either in the next 4-5 years, does he have a legitimate shot?

I'm generally not a McNabb supporter, or Eagle supporter at that but I found this interesting because if he were to win a Super Bowl then I would consider him having a solid chance at the HOF. Figured it was the offseason and there really isnt anything else to talk about so if a mod thinks it should be in the team forum then by all means move it.


http://draftcountdown.com/forum/showthread.php?t=29775

Already a thread about it. I wouldn't know about it but it's one of the very few threads I started. From February 2, 2009. About 3 months ago.

holt_bruce81
05-03-2009, 10:36 PM
He'll get in. If he were to retire today I'm not so sure he would get in, but I have no doubt he'll do enough to finish his career to get in Canton.

the decider13
05-03-2009, 10:58 PM
He definately shouldn't get in before someone like Gannon IMO. McNabb has put up good numbers and has led the team to everything but winning a superbowl. If he keeps at this pace (Maclin and Peters can only make things better) then he might get in at some point. Not a first balloter, but one of those 65 year old guys that gets in.

If he gets in before TD and Atwater, I am boycotting the HoF

BlindSite
05-03-2009, 11:35 PM
Hall of Solid maybe

yeats
05-03-2009, 11:39 PM
if i had a team of all time players i wouldn't be upset at all if mcnabb was my QB. his qb presence is one of the best ive ever seen and he has a great arm. i mean his resume may not be HOF worthy, but i wouldn't be picky if he was my QB on an all time team

parrish_lemar24DBSkins
05-04-2009, 01:04 AM
I think McNabb is appreciated more outside of Philly than he is by Eagles fans.

He probably needs a couple more years of solid production, but I wouldn't be surprised, 5 - 10 years after he reaches eligibility, to see McNabb voted into Canton.

If he played for the Redskins, we would be ready to knock someone out if they said McNabb didn't belong in the HOF when he retired!!

tjsunstein
05-04-2009, 01:41 AM
I think the consensus is that after 3-5 more years of solid production, and he has the tools for it now, he could have a shot. But right now, he doesn't have the credentials.

Addict
05-04-2009, 01:49 AM
if he plays a few more years, he could (could) get in. He'll need to win a ring if he wants to be semi-sure.

tjsunstein
05-04-2009, 02:00 AM
if he plays a few more years, he could (could) get in. He'll need to win a ring if he wants to be semi-sure.

Well I think this year is the best oppurtunity he'll have to win that ring.

Addict
05-04-2009, 02:02 AM
Well I think this year is the best oppurtunity he'll have to win that ring.

he's got a good chance, although obviously we don't know what he'll have around him a year from now... :D

tjsunstein
05-04-2009, 02:07 AM
he's got a good chance, although obviously we don't know what he'll have around him a year from now... :D

It can't be any better than what they could've had (Boldin) this year, can it?

A Perfect Score
05-04-2009, 02:49 AM
I think its important to remember how he influenced the game...not that he was the first ever QB to run prolifically (Steve Young, Randall Cunningham) but he was one of the guys who ushered in that new era of a mobile athletic QB...He has great numbers, has led his team to a SB, and like I said, he influenced the game in a great way, so I can definitely see him getting in someday.

eaglesalltheway
05-04-2009, 06:53 AM
He definately shouldn't get in before someone like Gannon IMO. McNabb has put up good numbers and has led the team to everything but winning a superbowl. If he keeps at this pace (Maclin and Peters can only make things better) then he might get in at some point. Not a first balloter, but one of those 65 year old guys that gets in.

If he gets in before TD and Atwater, I am boycotting the HoF

He definitely should get in before Gannon. Gannon was a good QB, but McNabb is way better than him, and thats no homer on my part.

Iamcanadian
05-04-2009, 07:07 AM
I don't think he is a HOF QB. The Eagles were clearly the dominent NFC team of the early 2000's and they won 1 Championship over that period failing year after year to advance to the SB. During this period, the Eagles were the only NFC team to have a franchise QB in McNabb but he rarely got them over the hump.
To make to the HOF, he will have to win a SB IMO or at least get there 1 or 2 more times.

SeanTaylorRIP
05-04-2009, 07:13 AM
I think its important to remember how he influenced the game...not that he was the first ever QB to run prolifically (Steve Young, Randall Cunningham) but he was one of the guys who ushered in that new era of a mobile athletic QB...He has great numbers, has led his team to a SB, and like I said, he influenced the game in a great way, so I can definitely see him getting in someday.

That's actually a very valid point, that and to be honest the guy hasn't had much help over his career. There are so many QB's who I won't name who IMO are in the HOF because they played with 5+ HOF's on their offense alone.

Nalej
05-04-2009, 10:10 AM
^^^ Agreed.

I think his influence and achievements should get him in.
That of course is assuming he continues to play at a high level for the next couple of years.

wonderbredd24
05-04-2009, 10:19 AM
Mobile QBs was never an era... it's a fad that comes and goes.

When it comes down to the eyeball test for McNabb, he's not a Hall of Famer.

Prowler
05-04-2009, 10:26 AM
he's not getting in unless they allow more inductees every year. with all the crap with art monk, i just don't see him ever getting in.

2 Live Crew
05-04-2009, 10:29 AM
McNabb would be in the Hall of Very Good right now but not sure of the Hall of Fame. He needs to get to another Super Bowl IMO and then we'll see. He can still get to the Hall of Fame though.

Getting to the NFCC 5 times is very nice, but only 1 win in those and that was with a relatively weak NFC most of those times (All of those teams lost in the super bowl except the Bucs)

In his defense, I will say that he is probably the greatest Philly Eagle of all-time. He's brought them more playoff wins than anyone else and gotten closer to a super bowl ring than anyone else. That's gotta count for something.

He's never had great WR's to throw to (exception of TO) but his teams always have a solid D and he does have Westbrook.

He's borderline to me right now. You could argue that he gets in after a couple more solid years and I wouldn't mind. He's better than some QB's that are in the HoF.

Matthew Jones
05-04-2009, 10:33 AM
Basically I think he's got a chance if he wins a title. If not, I don't think he gets in.

nobodyinparticular
05-04-2009, 10:34 AM
I think for him to get in, he needs more than a couple solid years. I don't think the status quo for McNabb is Hall of Fame worthy, even if he stays at that level for 5 more years. I think he needs to up his game quite a bit to become a Hall of Famer.

SeanTaylorRIP
05-04-2009, 11:04 AM
Mobile QBs was never an era... it's a fad that comes and goes.

When it comes down to the eyeball test for McNabb, he's not a Hall of Famer.

I think it's funny you call it a "fad." It isn't an era because there aren't enough QB's who can run and pass. Mcnabb is one of the few who could do that. You'd be lucky to get more than 3 QB's a decade with the type of mobility and arm combination Mcnabb possesses.

wonderbredd24
05-04-2009, 11:16 AM
I think it's funny you call it a "fad." It isn't an era because there aren't enough QB's who can run and pass. Mcnabb is one of the few who could do that. You'd be lucky to get more than 3 QB's a decade with the type of mobility and arm combination Mcnabb possesses.

It's a fad because everytime a team finds someone successful at it ie Randall Cunningham or Michael Vick, teams, fans, and the media start looking for QBs who can run as opposed to just looking for QBs.

You're right... very few players can do it, but that has not stopped the hysteria from taking over the league from time to time.

By the way, how much does McNabb really run anymore? It seems like he's almost a pure pocket passer at this point.

E-Man
05-04-2009, 12:47 PM
I think he should be. McNabb has done way more for his team than most QBs. His problem is that he team hasn't done much for him. How many years have we heard the same thing about the Eagles? It's always,"Man if they can get Donovan some weapons the Eagles can be a Super Bowl contender." Even with that Donovan has kept the Eagles afloat in many years when he didn't have much on the Eagles offense. Westbrook is fine and dandy, but you need more than him. Donovan's only problem is his team. If Donovan played on a team with a better O, and a solid D he would've had his ring by now.

If you ask me Donovan McNabb is leaps and bounds the quarterback that Ben Roethlisberger is, but people are putting Ben in already. I'm no Big Ben basher. I like that guy alot, but just because he had a great drive in the Super Bowl doesn't mean he's a Hall of Famer. If that's the case then Larry Brown should be a HoF corner. Big Ben struggled mightily all last season, and I think he even held the Steelers back last year at times. Maybe he'll step his game up to be considered a Hof since he's still really young, but right now he's just a decent bus driver with an all time great defense. If Donovan played for the Steelers they would have done the same thing. The difference would be that their offense wouldn't have been a burden until the playoffs. You can make the exact same argument for other Super Bowl winning teams of recent. Put Donovan on the Giants, Colts, Patriots, Bucs, and Ravens, and they'll still win the Super Bowl. Donovan is about as good as you can get at the quarterback position. He shouldn't miss the Hall because of his team. Plus someone also mentioned Jim Kelly early on in this thread. They've both had about the same amount of success, and there's no doubt that Jim's team was better than Donovan's.

JT Jag
05-04-2009, 12:56 PM
The excuse I hear whenever people talk about potential HOF guys from the Jaguars is "It's the Hall of Fame, not the Hall of Very Good".

Addict
05-04-2009, 01:27 PM
The excuse I hear whenever people talk about potential HOF guys from the Jaguars is "It's the Hall of Fame, not the Hall of Very Good".

your point, nobody should get in as long as no jaguars have proven worthy?

tjsunstein
05-04-2009, 01:34 PM
- One of 6 players in NFL history to have amassed over 25,000 passing yards (29,320) and 3,000 rushing yards (3,109)

Just pointed that out. I'm not sure who the other 5 are but I would guess Cunningham, Elway, Young, two others lol. Pretty solid group off the top of my head.

Addict
05-04-2009, 01:36 PM
Just pointed that out. I'm not sure who the other 5 are but I would guess Cunningham, Elway, Young, two others lol. Pretty solid group off the top of my head.

Tarkenton?

Xonraider
05-04-2009, 01:41 PM
Meh, I don't think so. He gets hurt a lot, has thrown over 30 TDs once, and over 20 only 4. Never won a ring, never won an MVP...

tjsunstein
05-04-2009, 01:47 PM
- Became the 4th-fastest QB in NFL history to reach the 50-win plateau in just 71 starts, vs. Bal. (10/31/04)
That's pretty damn impressive for being hurt a lot.

- In his first full season as a NFL starter in 2000, McNabb finished second in the Associated Press MVP voting (24-11) to St. Louis RB Marshall Faulk, who set the NFL record for most TDs scored in a season.

- Five NFC Championship Games (1-4) Joined Ken Stabler (Raiders), Jim Kelly (Bills) and Troy Aikman (Cowboys), in 2004, as the only QBs since 1970 to take their teams to four or more consecutive conference championship games.

At a certain point you have to look past the lack of rings and awards. It's not like he hasn't come close at all. He got the the NFCCG six times! SIX! And he finished second to Faulk (Future HOF) one year.

Shane P. Hallam
05-04-2009, 01:58 PM
Like I said, the difference between McNabb and Jim Kelly is not all that much...

JT Jag
05-04-2009, 02:14 PM
your point, nobody should get in as long as no jaguars have proven worthy?Reading comprehension. McNabb, like the best Jaguars so far, is just very good.

The Hall of Fame isn't a place for players that are only very good.

Addict
05-04-2009, 02:21 PM
Reading comprehension. McNabb, like the best Jaguars so far, is just very good.

The Hall of Fame isn't a place for players that are only very good.

how about some comprehensive writing from your side as well. I couldn't honestly tell if you were complaining about people disregarding the Jags or claiming McNabb was just very good.

tjsunstein
05-04-2009, 02:25 PM
If you think McNabb is just very good, what is your prototype for a HOF QB?

Todd Bertuzzi
05-04-2009, 02:25 PM
A championship would definitely help, but I still believe with a few more years of good production for McNabb and he should warrant serious consideration. He most likely won't be a first ballot hall of famer, but I could see him getting in one day.

JT Jag
05-04-2009, 02:26 PM
Also, McNabb fails the snap decision test, which goes something like this.

"Does Donovin McNabb deserve a spot in Canton?"

If you can't decisively say "yes" within three seconds, he's only borderline at best. And I doubt anyone can decisively answer yes to that question without convincing themselves first.

JT Jag
05-04-2009, 02:28 PM
If you think McNabb is just very good, what is your prototype for a HOF QB?Well, my minimum prereq is that the quarterback has to have been arguably the best in the NFL for some period of time.

And I can't convince myself that McNabb has ever been better then either Peyton Manning or, since 2003, Tom Brady.

tjsunstein
05-04-2009, 02:31 PM
Also, McNabb fails the snap decision test, which goes something like this.

"Does Donovin McNabb deserve a spot in Canton?"

If you can't decisively say "yes" within three seconds, he's only borderline at best. And I doubt anyone can decisively answer yes to that question without convincing themselves first.

It's because we're bringing up the topic before his career is over leaving much more to be desired because of his past accomplishments. If his career ended today, he wouldn't be in atleast for a long while if at all. We're talking about 5 years down the road with solid production. By then I dont think you can argue against a QB that has played for 14 years with at the very least 6 NFCCG appearences. I'm not sure you know how rare/difficult that is since we've been spoiled with the Bradys, Aikmans, Youngs in recent history. I almost want to go as far as bringing in Elway and Favre. All of this guys are sure fire hall of famers that I mentioned and I think subconciously we're comparing McNabb to them.

tjsunstein
05-04-2009, 02:32 PM
Well, my minimum prereq is that the quarterback has to have been arguably the best in the NFL for some period of time.

And I can't convince myself that McNabb has ever been better then either Peyton Manning or, since 2003, Tom Brady.
See post above.

A Perfect Score
05-04-2009, 02:34 PM
It's a fad because everytime a team finds someone successful at it ie Randall Cunningham or Michael Vick, teams, fans, and the media start looking for QBs who can run as opposed to just looking for QBs.

You're right... very few players can do it, but that has not stopped the hysteria from taking over the league from time to time.

By the way, how much does McNabb really run anymore? It seems like he's almost a pure pocket passer at this point.

McNabb has lost a bit of his mobility due to injuries and scheme, but when he was younger, he was a legitimate dual threat QB. I do think that the influence he had on the game will assist him in getting in. That Eagles team is perpetually good, and now that he has some legit weapons down there, probably better then he has ever had, I can see him having a few big years.

For me, another question I ask myself when considering McNabb is "Is he a franchise QB? Has be provided his team with 10 years of great play?" The answer to that is yes. So for 10 years, Philly hasnt had to re-evaluate their situation at QB...I think McNabb gets in eventually. There are worse players in the HoF then McNabb.

wonderbredd24
05-04-2009, 03:06 PM
McNabb has lost a bit of his mobility due to injuries and scheme, but when he was younger, he was a legitimate dual threat QB. I do think that the influence he had on the game will assist him in getting in. That Eagles team is perpetually good, and now that he has some legit weapons down there, probably better then he has ever had, I can see him having a few big years.

For me, another question I ask myself when considering McNabb is "Is he a franchise QB? Has be provided his team with 10 years of great play?" The answer to that is yes. So for 10 years, Philly hasnt had to re-evaluate their situation at QB...I think McNabb gets in eventually. There are worse players in the HoF then McNabb.

If the basis of getting in is being better than some of the people in there, then open up the floodgates, because there are a ton of players who have been better than Joe Namath and Lynn Swann.

Brothgar
05-04-2009, 03:08 PM
We had this debate a long time ago I couldn't find the thread though...

My basic argument on why McNabb isn't a HOF QB
In the modern Era only 3 QBs have not been either a SB winning QB (or pre SB equivalent) nor a League MVP.

Jim Kelly - 5 Time Pro Bowler, 4 Consecutive SB appearances.

Warren Moon - 9 Time Pro Bowl selection

Sonny JURGENSEN - 5 time Pro Bowler 3 time NFL passing leader probably the best argument for McNabb (stats wise) assuming McNabb has 2-3 Good seasons left.


McNabb - 5x Pro Bowl 1 SB appearance.

StorminNorman
05-04-2009, 03:23 PM
Since I don't ever see McNabb winning a Super Bowl - no.

McNabb is an underachiever, there is no place in the Hall for underachievers.

tjsunstein
05-04-2009, 03:40 PM
Since I don't ever see McNabb winning a Super Bowl - no.

McNabb is an underachiever, there is no place in the Hall for underachievers.

Really? You deserved to be neg repped.

wicket
05-04-2009, 03:42 PM
of the current veteran qb's brady and manning are the only two players who are HOF bound to me

tjsunstein
05-04-2009, 03:42 PM
We had this debate a long time ago I couldn't find the thread though...

My basic argument on why McNabb isn't a HOF QB
In the modern Era only 3 QBs have not been either a SB winning QB (or pre SB equivalent) nor a League MVP.

Jim Kelly - 5 Time Pro Bowler, 4 Consecutive SB appearances.

Warren Moon - 9 Time Pro Bowl selection

Sonny JURGENSEN - 5 time Pro Bowler 3 time NFL passing leader probably the best argument for McNabb (stats wise) assuming McNabb has 2-3 Good seasons left.

McNabb - 5x Pro Bowl 1 SB appearance.

Is this it?
http://draftcountdown.com/forum/showthread.php?t=29775 ?

Brothgar
05-04-2009, 03:50 PM
Is this it?
http://draftcountdown.com/forum/showthread.php?t=29775 ?

yeah that was it I'm going to quote my post in that thread to accentuate the point I made in the previous page.

Not stupid at all

How many Hall of fame QB's in the modern era are lacking BOTH a league MVP AND a Super Bowl win (or pre super bowl equivilent) answer 3

Player Super Bowl? MVP?
TROY AIKMAN Yes NO
GEORGE BLANDA Yes NO* (not applicable for the first half of his career)
TERRY BRADSHAW Yes Yes
LEN DAWSON Yes Yes
JOHN ELWAY Yes Yes
OTTO GRAHAM Yes N/A
BOB GRIESE Yes No* (I'm only counting AP MVP he was NEA MVP)
SONNY JURGENSEN No No (May be the best arguement for McNabb)
JIM KELLY No No (went to 4 back to back SB's)
BOBBY LAYNE Yes N/A
DAN MARINO No Yes
JOE MONTANA Yes Yes
WARREN MOON No No (9 time Pro bowl)
JOE NAMATH Yes No
BART STARR Yes Yes
FRAN TARKENTON Yes Yes
Y.A. TITTLE No Yes
NORM VAN BROCKLIN Yes N/A
STEVE YOUNG Yes Yes
EDIT JOHNNY UNITAS Yes Yes
ROGER STAUBACH Yes No?



Donovan McNabb No No

And Sonny Jugenson was the lead the NFL in passing for 3 seasons I don't know if McNabb ever did that. So I say yeah retire McNabb's number he was a great Eagle for a long time but his bust doesn't belong in Canton.

tjsunstein
05-04-2009, 03:55 PM
yeah that was it I'm going to quote my post in that thread to accentuate the point I made in the previous page.

And Sonny Jugenson was the lead the NFL in passing for 3 seasons I don't know if McNabb ever did that. So I say yeah retire McNabb's number he was a great Eagle for a long time but his bust doesn't belong in Canton.

Was never in the top 5 for Passing Yards in a season.

wonderbredd24
05-04-2009, 03:56 PM
of the current veteran qb's brady and manning are the only two players who are HOF bound to me

What about Kurt Warner?

tjsunstein
05-04-2009, 04:06 PM
What about Kurt Warner?

I think he should be in but there's a thread about that too. Somewhere...

parrish_lemar24DBSkins
05-04-2009, 07:59 PM
We had this debate a long time ago I couldn't find the thread though...

My basic argument on why McNabb isn't a HOF QB
In the modern Era only 3 QBs have not been either a SB winning QB (or pre SB equivalent) nor a League MVP.

Jim Kelly - 5 Time Pro Bowler, 4 Consecutive SB appearances.

Warren Moon - 9 Time Pro Bowl selection

Sonny JURGENSEN - 5 time Pro Bowler 3 time NFL passing leader probably the best argument for McNabb (stats wise) assuming McNabb has 2-3 Good seasons left.


McNabb - 5x Pro Bowl 1 SB appearance.

You forgot Dan Fouts.

wicket
05-04-2009, 08:43 PM
I think he should be in but there's a thread about that too. Somewhere...

yeah, and in that thread i dont see warner as a hof qb either. he had to many bad year in the middle. Outside of manning and brady the only current guy well into his carreer with a small shot are brees and roethlisberger imo. Brees needs way more teamsucces to get there though (and a couple more of the year like last year. Roethlisberger has the superbowls but needs some great statistical seasons to get there.

the decider13
05-04-2009, 11:10 PM
What about Kurt Warner?

To me, Kurt Warner is a no doubt HoFer...I have a hard time making an argument against it.

someone447
05-05-2009, 10:54 AM
Well, my minimum prereq is that the quarterback has to have been arguably the best in the NFL for some period of time.

And I can't convince myself that McNabb has ever been better then either Peyton Manning or, since 2003, Tom Brady.

So over the past 30 years the HOF QBs would look something like this:
Manning
Brady
Favre
Young
Montana
Marino

6 HOF QBs over the past 30 years...

nobodyinparticular
05-05-2009, 01:28 PM
So over the past 30 years the HOF QBs would look something like this:
Manning
Brady
Favre
Young
Montana
Marino

6 HOF QBs over the past 30 years...

Over the past 15-20 years, not 30 years. And yes. What's wrong with only 6 QBs in that time? Again, it's Hall of Fame not Hall of Very Good.

Brothgar
05-05-2009, 01:36 PM
You forgot Dan Fouts.

Dan Fouts won the MVP in 1982.

someone447
05-05-2009, 02:47 PM
Over the past 15-20 years, not 30 years. And yes. What's wrong with only 6 QBs in that time? Again, it's Hall of Fame not Hall of Very Good.

This is 2009 Montana started in '79 and Marino in '83. So I guess I could say 25 years, just to give them a couple years to get situated.

I forgot Elway.

What's wrong is that it leaves out Aikman, Kelly, Moon, and Fouts. All those guys deserve to be in. You can't only measure players based on how great they were, if they were important to the NFL they have to get in also, which is why Moon got in, which is why Aikman was a first ballot. It is the Hall of Fame, not the Hall of Greatness. Greatness is one measure of importance, but not the only one.

That being said, I'm conflicted on Mcnabb, a couple more years and I say he is in. Right now, I wouldn't be mad, but I don't think so.

Geo
07-11-2009, 05:38 PM
I was planning on creating a thread about something I've really been wondering, which is very much along the lines of this recent thread so I guess I'll just add on to it. Anyways, here goes:

Donovan McNabb had two years left on his existing contract, but the Eagles signed him to a new two-year deal with more money. So, safe to say, they're committed to him for at least one more year if not both years.

And they continue to add talent to a well-built team, acquiring in the offseason Stacey Andrews, Jason Peters, Jeremy Maclin, LeSean McCoy, and Ellis Hobbs among other players.

Coming off of last year, when they took the Cardinals - playing in Arizona - to the brink of the NFC Championship Game, I think potentially the Eagles could be primed for another Super Bowl appearance in the next two years. Especially with the way I think the NFC could break in the next year, if not two.

So as to the Hall of Fame chances of Andy Reid and Donovan McNabb ...

Does a Super Bowl championship in the next two years automatically get both into the Hall?

And is anything less than a championship enough? A SB appearance, another entry (or two) into an NFCCG, two NFCCGs, numbers of years more?

I'm pretty curious as to what you guys think.

Crazy_Chris
07-11-2009, 08:48 PM
I think McNabb will eventually make it, he will have to wait a long time but he will get in. Do I necesarcilly think he deserves to be in the in HOF? No, not really he hasn't been dominant which is what I would like out of a HOF player.

But if you compare his numbers to some other HOF QBs from this era he stacks up very well so he definatly could get in...

Donovan McNabb -5 time Pro Bowler 0 All Pros 0 Super Bowl Rings |128 Games started | Record:82-45-1-64%
Passing
2534 CMP | 4303 Att| 58.9 % | 29,320 yds | 6.8YPA | 194 TD | 90 Int | 85.9 Rat
Rushing
536 att | 3109 Yds | 5.8 YPC | 26 TDs

Steve Young- 7 Pro Bowls 3 All Pros 1 Super Bowl ring | 143 starts | Record 94-49- 66%
Passing
2667 CMP | 4149 Att | 64.3 % | 33124 yds | 7.9 YPA | 232 TD | 107 Int | 96.8 Rat
Rushing
722 att | 4239 Yds | 49 Td | 5.9 YPA

Jim Kelly -5 Pro Bowl 1 All Pr 0 Super Bowl | 160 Starts | Record 101-59 - 63%
Passing
2874 Cmp | 4779 Att | 60.1% | 35467 Yds | 7.4 YPA | 237 TD | 175 Int | 84.4 rat
Rushing
304 att | 1049 yds | 7 TD | 3.5 YPC

Troy Aikman- 6 Pro Bowls 0 All Pro 3 Super Bowl Rings | 165 Starts | Record 94-71- 61.5%
Passing
2898 Cmp | 4715 Att | 61.5% | 32942 Yds | 7.0 YPA | 165 TD | 141 Int | 81.6 Rat
Rushing
327 Att | 1016 yds | 9 Td | 3.1 YPC

Also keep in mind McNabb obtained these numbers with mostly a cast of scrubs, especially compared to what some of those QBs had to work with. But to me what impresses me the most about McNabb has been his decision making over his career he has only thrown 90 Ints on 4303 Att thats 1 int per every 48 Passes, thats damn good.

I think McNabb has been very under rated for the majority of his career. His career numbers won't blow you away. However when you compare them to so other QBs they put in the hall pretty recently it does seem he stands a very good chance to make it in one day down the road.

Staubach12
07-12-2009, 12:48 AM
He's not a HOFer at all. Was he very good at one point? Yes, he was great. But was he a dominant player of our time? NO, I don't think he's in that conversation.

Paul
07-12-2009, 01:10 AM
I think McNabb will eventually make it, he will have to wait a long time but he will get in. Do I necesarcilly think he deserves to be in the in HOF? No, not really he hasn't been dominant which is what I would like out of a HOF player.

But if you compare his numbers to some other HOF QBs from this era he stacks up very well so he definatly could get in...

Donovan McNabb -5 time Pro Bowler 0 All Pros 0 Super Bowl Rings |128 Games started | Record:82-45-1-64%
Passing
2534 CMP | 4303 Att| 58.9 % | 29,320 yds | 6.8YPA | 194 TD | 90 Int | 85.9 Rat
Rushing
536 att | 3109 Yds | 5.8 YPC | 26 TDs

Steve Young- 7 Pro Bowls 3 All Pros 1 Super Bowl ring | 143 starts | Record 94-49- 66%
Passing
2667 CMP | 4149 Att | 64.3 % | 33124 yds | 7.9 YPA | 232 TD | 107 Int | 96.8 Rat
Rushing
722 att | 4239 Yds | 49 Td | 5.9 YPA

Jim Kelly -5 Pro Bowl 1 All Pr 0 Super Bowl | 160 Starts | Record 101-59 - 63%
Passing
2874 Cmp | 4779 Att | 60.1% | 35467 Yds | 7.4 YPA | 237 TD | 175 Int | 84.4 rat
Rushing
304 att | 1049 yds | 7 TD | 3.5 YPC

Troy Aikman- 6 Pro Bowls 0 All Pro 3 Super Bowl Rings | 165 Starts | Record 94-71- 61.5%
Passing
2898 Cmp | 4715 Att | 61.5% | 32942 Yds | 7.0 YPA | 165 TD | 141 Int | 81.6 Rat
Rushing
327 Att | 1016 yds | 9 Td | 3.1 YPC


Not to be "that guy" but Aikman was an All-Pro in 1993. The homer in me couldn't let this slide.

superman8456
07-12-2009, 01:13 AM
You guys are too caught up in this. Right now he may not look like a HOF'er, but two or three more years with Brian Wesbrook, DeSean Jackson, etc around him he could be looking like one.

DoughBoy
07-12-2009, 01:17 AM
Needs a Superbowl win.

GB12
07-12-2009, 01:19 AM
So as to the Hall of Fame chances of Andy Reid and Donovan McNabb ...
I'm shocked that you could even think about Andy Reid for the Hall of Fame. That is a joke.

Geo
07-12-2009, 01:42 PM
Well that's kind of what I was wondering about. If the Eagles do win a Super Bowl, what does that mean for Reid? He'll have had an unprecedented decade of success with the Eagles, nevermind bring the franchise its first championship. Does that mean Hall of Fame discussion for him?

Shane P. Hallam
07-12-2009, 01:47 PM
If he wins a ring, he'll get consideration at least.

Crazy_Chris
07-12-2009, 08:14 PM
Not to be "that guy" but Aikman was an All-Pro in 1993. The homer in me couldn't let this slide.

My bad if you were right I was just going off of pro football reference and they don't have him listed as ever being an all pro. So I guess they got it wrong

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/A/AikmTr00.htm

NY+Giants=NYG
07-13-2009, 07:20 AM
If McNabb makes it, then Phil Simms should be a shoe in!

Thumper
07-14-2009, 03:34 AM
McNabb is only 680 yds away from 30,000 yards which barring injury he should break by week 4. He is only 391 rushing yards away from 3500 yards. Either way only a SB ring will keep him out of the HOF if he continues to play at this level for 3-5 more years. It's entirely possible for him if all he does is average his career stats to have 40,000+ pass yds 270+ TD/ 3600 rush yds 35TD when its all said and done or more if indeed he stays healthy. Imagine what his numbers would be had he not been injured in the 2-3 yr span after the SB where he missed 13 games (22 in total for his career) after being named starter.

Just so you know he should have more passing yards than Steve Young and Steve McNair by the end of this season. When it is all said and done McNabb will be a member of the 30000 and 3500 club.

Plus look at all of this:
http://www.philadelphiaeagles.com/eagles_files/images/McNabb,-Donovan-1.png

He is the third winningest QB of his generation and he has had very little talent to work with, he has 5 NFC Championship games and a superbowl appearance. He is a hall of famer.

Thumper
07-14-2009, 03:43 AM
If McNabb makes it, then Phil Simms should be a shoe in!

Lol you have to be kidding. Look at the stats buddy, McNabb will smash Simms numbers.

Phil Simms- 14 seasons
33,462 career passing yards
199 Touchdown Passes
157 interceptions
sacked 477 times
349 rushing attempts
1,252 rushing yards and 6 touchdowns

Donovan McNabb- 10 seasons
29,320 passing yards
194 touchdown passes
90 interceptions
sacked 322 times
536 rushing attempts
3,109 rushing yards and 26 touchdowns

All that in 4 less seasons. Yeah, Phil Simms is a shoe in if McNabb makes it in! :rolleyes: Sorry thats wrong and I wish that thing didn't have a smiley face.

wonderbredd24
07-14-2009, 08:15 AM
When people are posting Jim Kelly and Warren Moon's numbers, are they including their numbers from the Canadian Football League for Moon and the USFL for Kelly?

Especially for Moon, it makes a huge difference.

McNabb, to me, is a very good QB, but he's not a hall of fame QB. And I think Steve McNair is in the same boat... but McNair in my opinion was better than McNabb

Hall of Fame QBs currently playing include Brady, Manning, and Warner

Gay Ork Wang
07-14-2009, 08:35 AM
no it doesnt. This is the NFL not the CFL or USFL

wonderbredd24
07-14-2009, 09:00 AM
no it doesnt. This is the NFL not the CFL or USFL

It's the Pro Football Hall of Fame

Gay Ork Wang
07-14-2009, 09:35 AM
It's the Pro Football Hall of Fame
yes for the NFL. No one cares what Milt Stegal is doing at the CFL. Dont kid yourself. It also says World Champions although its only in America.

bsaza2358
07-14-2009, 09:42 AM
McNabb has been a relatively consistent regular season winner, but his performance in big time games has been poor. Until he makes the Super Bowl 2 more times and wins 1, he has no shot of making the HOF. He has been a great franchise player for the Eagles, but his lack of winning in the clutch will haunt his legacy.

NY+Giants=NYG
07-14-2009, 10:42 AM
Lol you have to be kidding. Look at the stats buddy, McNabb will smash Simms numbers.

Phil Simms- 14 seasons
33,462 career passing yards
199 Touchdown Passes
157 interceptions
sacked 477 times
349 rushing attempts
1,252 rushing yards and 6 touchdowns

Donovan McNabb- 10 seasons
29,320 passing yards
194 touchdown passes
90 interceptions
sacked 322 times
536 rushing attempts
3,109 rushing yards and 26 touchdowns

All that in 4 less seasons. Yeah, Phil Simms is a shoe in if McNabb makes it in! :rolleyes: Sorry thats wrong and I wish that thing didn't have a smiley face.


I'd take Simms any day over McNabb. McNabb isn't a big game QB, and you're going to put him in the HOF??! HAHAHA Stop stat throwing and watch these games. He is a good QB, but HOFer. Hell no! What has McNabb done? Win a big game, and win a superbowl, and then we will talk. 3 ints and 3 Tds in the superbowl isn't going to cut it. Not to mention he is not the smartest QB out there. McNabb had poor clock management on that final drive of the superbowl, and looked completely winded. Not to mention that overtime rule, where he didn't know it ended with a tie. Another time he lined up under guard! UNDER GUARD, not under center! I have picture somewhere on my computer. He is what he is, and that's a good QB. He is no even close to a hall of famer. If there was a Hall of very good, he'd be in there, I have no issue with that. I respect him as a QB, but like I said if McNabb gets in, then Simms should be ahead of him, of nothing, based on being a big game qb, and having superbowl rings.

Not only that you can't compare two different QBs in different eras anyways.

He may have done well statistically, but when it comes to a big game, he is last on the list I will take as a QB.

Malaka
07-14-2009, 11:22 AM
Simms 2
McNabb 0

Simms = Winner

Sniper
07-14-2009, 11:24 AM
Simms 2
McNabb 0

Simms = Winner

Trent Dilfer 1
Dan Marino 0

Trent Dilfer=Winner?

Simms wouldn't have even come close if he had ridiculously ****** WRs like McNabb has had.

NY+Giants=NYG
07-14-2009, 11:28 AM
Trent Dilfer 1
Dan Marino 0

Trent Dilfer=Winner?

Simms wouldn't have even come close if he had ridiculously ****** WRs like McNabb has had.

Simms didn't have studs by any means. We had McConkey, and other guys, but Bavaro was the true stud, who I always thought was sick, and one of the best TEs. But again you are comparing two different QBs in 2 different eras.

And there stats are comparable, Dilfer and Marino aren't so let's not get carried away here.

Sniper
07-14-2009, 11:34 AM
Simms didn't have studs by any means. We had McConkey, and other guys, but Bavaro was the true stud, who I always thought was sick, and one of the best TEs. But again you are comparing two different QBs in 2 different eras.

And I bet that you'd still take McConkey, Bavaro and company over Fredex, Lost It In The Lights, Trash and the plethora of **** that Donovan's had. Don't you find it slightly ironic that he made it to within 3 points of a SB win during the lone year where had a legitimate #1 target?

And there stats are comparable, Dilfer and Marino aren't so let's not get carried away here.

While their stats are comparable, Malaka's point was that Simms was automatically better due to his two SB wins. It's the same thing we go through when we debate Brady vs. Manning. While I'm a Brady fan, his rings edge isn't the be-all, end-all of debatable points. That is, unless you think Terry Bradshaw's the greatest QB ever.

NY+Giants=NYG
07-14-2009, 11:39 AM
And I bet that you'd still take McConkey, Bavaro and company over Fredex, Lost It In The Lights, Trash and the plethora of **** that Donovan's had.



While their stats are comparable, Malaka's point was that Simms was automatically better due to his two SB wins. It's the same thing we go through when we debate Brady vs. Manning. While I'm a Brady fan, his rings edge isn't the be-all, end-all of debatable points. That is, unless you think Terry Bradshaw's the greatest QB ever.


Well I always liked McConkey, but these guys weren't good in the traditional sense. They played much harder and higher than their talent level. Think of Rudy of ND. Kind of like those type of guys we had back then. We had no superstars.

We did have good RBs, but Westbrook I'd consider better than the ones we had from what I can remember. I was 5 and 10 years old when we won the 2 superbowls.

Yeah well superbowls don't automatically mean you make it, but i think of it as a huge bonus. So if your stats are close or somehow comparable that superbowl puts you over the top.

No, I get your point, but my point was to the other eagles fan who thought it would be crazy to take Simms over McNabb in the hall of fame. As if I advocated Dilfer over Marino. Simms and McNabb have similar stats, and Simms was a big game player, who has 2 rings, and set a superbowl record, and playoff record. He was also a superbowl MVP too. I don't think it's crazy to say if McNabb got in, that Simms should be before him.

bsaza2358
07-14-2009, 11:41 AM
No matter what you say about it, McNabb has had 1 good big game (2004 vs. Atlanta), 2 okay big games (2001 vs. St. Louis + last year vs. Arizona), and 3 crappy big games (2002 vs. Tampa, 2003 vs. Carolina, and 2004 vs. NE). His record in big games is 1-5. He has shown poor clock management, poor decision making, and poor accuracy at times in the losses. Gamers rise above in big spots. McNabb gets the team there, but he hasn't been able to rise above. Period. I love the guy, but his record in the spotlight is clear.

Malaka
07-14-2009, 11:47 AM
T.O was better than any receiver Simms had, and McNabb also choked in that game in 04'. Bavaro was the only great receiver he had and he was a TE, McConkey was decent but it was more due to his hustle than anything else.

Trent Dilfer and Marino are not even close statistically McNabb and Simms are. So don't give me the whole Dilfer>Marino? crapola.

The Giants back then won because of their defense, and the fact Simms manage to lead the team in the playoffs. McNabb has so far proved unable to do this.

NY+Giants=NYG
07-14-2009, 11:57 AM
I respect McNabb as a player even though he is on a division rival, but I just don't think he is a hall of famer. He is a damn good player though.

When I think of him I think of a great player when alot of side issues. Clock Management issues, throwing up on the field, being douche ( going to the Giants bench and picking up the phone to make a call), lining up being the guard instead of the center, and then not knowing the overtime rules. Didn't his mom start making head lines with her damn blogs too???

He also isn't a big game qb. He still is a great player, but when you think of HOF qbs, for the most part, McNabb doesn't come to mind. I think I like him more than alot of the Eagles fans do. I have respect for a guy who can play in front of a fan base that seems to kill him at some point every year.

NBA
07-14-2009, 12:28 PM
Andy Reid is a Fat **** (FF) Looooossssseeeerrrr
McNabb is a Fat choker overthrowing unnecessarily hard passer with the accuracy of a one eyed autistic man and has the intelligence and decision making skills of a dirty pair of socks.



I'm an Eagles fan.
Isn't this pathetic?
I've loved this team for so long and followed them for so long knowing every player, size of player(no ****), and history and college of the players on this team.
For so long now I've cared to much and I'm always let down and dissapointed and crushed with this team.. And I relize How dumb Lurie is, how annoying Reid is (who could have been somebody if he didn't have a stupid pass pass pass mentality) and how much of a overated asshole McNabb is

Bengalsrocket
07-14-2009, 05:29 PM
And there stats are comparable, Dilfer and Marino aren't so let's not get carried away here.

Trent Dilfer and Marino are not even close statistically McNabb and Simms are. So don't give me the whole Dilfer>Marino? crapola.


So stats matter, but only when it benefits your argument? McNabb and Simm's stats will not be close when McNabb is on his 14th season (assuming he plays that long).

To me, Phil Simms was a great QB. But McNabb is an even better QB. It's kind of a shame that he might actually miss the HoF because of his lack of rings.

(note: not advocating that McNabb is already HoF material. But if his resume continues on the track, I can't see how you would keep this guy out.)

Addict
07-14-2009, 05:34 PM
If McNabb manages to win a ring, I don't see any reason why he shoulnd't be in the HoF, to be honest. If he doesn't... I doubt he'll get in.

Thumper
07-14-2009, 06:10 PM
So stats matter, but only when it benefits your argument? McNabb and Simm's stats will not be close when McNabb is on his 14th season (assuming he plays that long).

To me, Phil Simms was a great QB. But McNabb is an even better QB. It's kind of a shame that he might actually miss the HoF because of his lack of rings.

(note: not advocating that McNabb is already HoF material. But if his resume continues on the track, I can't see how you would keep this guy out.)

exactly like I said earlier It's entirely possible for him if all he does is average his career stats to have 40,000+ pass yds 270+ TD/ 3600 rush yds 35TD when its all said and done or more if indeed he stays healthy.

For all you keeping track he will likely have 45,000+ all purpose yards and will have more than 300 total touchdowns. Those are HOF numbers that are more than Troy Aikman, Joe Namath (who sucked if you look at his stats), Steve Young, Terry Bradshaw, Roger Staubach, Joe Montana, Johnny Unitas, Bob Griese, Dan Fouts. He will also finish with better stats than Tom Brady.

Donovan McNabb is one of the best of this generation, has led one of the best teams of this decade, is statistically a top 5 QB of this decade, led his team to 5 NFC Championship games, 1 superbowl, has the 3rd best all time TD/INT ratio, he best all time in interception %, he is also the third winningest QB in the NFL today. If he gets a ring, he is a lock IMO. McNabb belongs.

McNabb will likely finish in the top 15 for passing yards all-time if not higher (#15 is Jim Kelly with 35,467), he is only 21 TD passes from cracking the top 20 list in that category and he should finish in the top 10, He will break into the top 20 in completions by the end of this season, he is already a top 15 all-time QB ratings wise and he is already a top 7 rushing QB. McNabb should and will go into the HOF.

Brothgar
07-14-2009, 06:32 PM
Ok its about time I commented again on this thread

http://norunnyeggs.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/06/its-a-trap.jpg

SHUT UP AKBAR!

I've quoted this post a few times and no one has really addressed it of those who think McNabb is a HOF QB.

Not stupid at all

How many Hall of fame QB's in the modern era are lacking BOTH a league MVP AND a Super Bowl win (or pre super bowl equivilent) answer 3

Player Super Bowl? MVP?
TROY AIKMAN Yes NO
GEORGE BLANDA Yes NO* (not applicable for the first half of his career)
TERRY BRADSHAW Yes Yes
LEN DAWSON Yes Yes
JOHN ELWAY Yes Yes
OTTO GRAHAM Yes N/A
BOB GRIESE Yes No* (I'm only counting AP MVP he was NEA MVP)
SONNY JURGENSEN No No (May be the best arguement for McNabb)
JIM KELLY No No (went to 4 back to back SB's)
BOBBY LAYNE Yes N/A
DAN MARINO No Yes
JOE MONTANA Yes Yes
WARREN MOON No No (9 time Pro bowl)
JOE NAMATH Yes No
BART STARR Yes Yes
FRAN TARKENTON Yes Yes
Y.A. TITTLE No Yes
NORM VAN BROCKLIN Yes N/A
STEVE YOUNG Yes Yes
EDIT JOHNNY UNITAS Yes Yes
ROGER STAUBACH Yes No?



Donovan McNabb No No

But OK there are still three QBs in the modern era with no MVP and no SB so the next logical question is do these three hold any accolades that McNabb doesn't. If not than McNabb should go to the hall of fame.

WARREN MOON
SONNY JURGENSEN
JIM KELLY

So next we gotta look at pro bowls I guess next highest accolade behind super bowl champ and MVP (well I guess it would be OPY but I'm not looking that up)


WARREN MOON 9
SONNY JURGENSEN 5
JIM KELLY 5
McNabb 5

So OK we don't need to talk about Warren Moon anymore but there are still two more QBs.

So if you can't win the SB and you can't win OPY, and you can't go to the pro bowl what would you want next? League leader in passing yards I guess.

SONNY JURGENSEN 3
JIM KELLY 1
McNabb 0 (I'm going to assume tjsunstein's right on this one)

so the way I see it is if McNabb made it to the hall he would be the worst QB to make it. If McNabb's never been in the top 5 in passing yards ever in his career I can't see calling him one of the greatest of all time. But that is just broth hatein again.

BlindSite
07-14-2009, 06:33 PM
If McNabb manages to win a ring, I don't see any reason why he shoulnd't be in the HoF, to be honest. If he doesn't... I doubt he'll get in.

While QBs have more impact than most other positions in professional team sports on a game's outcome. I think it would be a little unfair to keep him out simply for a lack of a ring.

Yeah, guys like Dilfer have one, but they didn't win the superbowl for their team, their team won it as a unit and the Eagles didn't lose that superbowl because of McNabb, they lost as a team.

Bengalsrocket
07-14-2009, 06:49 PM
so the way I see it is if McNabb made it to the hall he would be the worst QB to make it. If McNabb's never been in the top 5 in passing yards ever in his career I can't see calling him one of the greatest of all time. But that is just broth hatein again.

You bring up interesting points (all of which I saw earlier in the thread). However, I think it's a little bit of a stretch to call him the worst QB to go into the HoF just because he didn't lead the league in passing yards. There is like 20 different variables that go into that stat (for example: did the defense struggle to get off the field? Did his RB have a lot of carries? Does he tuck the ball and run with it often? Was he a contender for passing yards before an injury ever?).

Edit: I should clarify, you actually called him the worst QB to go into the HoF (assuming he makes it) for multiple reasons, not just passing yards. however, my point was to refute the fact that leading the league in passing yards should even matter.

Thumper
07-14-2009, 06:55 PM
Broth, stats are not a problem:
It's entirely possible for him if all he does is average his career stats to have 40,000+ pass yds 270+ TD/ 3600 rush yds 35TD when its all said and done or more if indeed he stays healthy.

McNabb will likely finish in the top 15 for passing yards all-time if not higher (#15 is Jim Kelly with 35,467), he is only 21 TD passes from cracking the top 20 list in that category and he should finish in the top 10, He will break into the top 20 in completions by the end of this season, he is already a top 15 all-time QB ratings wise and he is already a top 7 rushing QB. McNabb should and will go into the HOF.

And the worst QB in the hall of fame? Please. The worst QB in the HOF according to you would be better than half of them statistically and most of them physically :/

Sniper
07-14-2009, 06:59 PM
Thumper, you need to take broth's opinion on McNabb with about 83 grains of salt. I'm not saying he's a HOFer, but broth would have you believe McNabb is a mediocre QB at best.

Brothgar
07-14-2009, 09:07 PM
You bring up interesting points (all of which I saw earlier in the thread). However, I think it's a little bit of a stretch to call him the worst QB to go into the HoF just because he didn't lead the league in passing yards. There is like 20 different variables that go into that stat (for example: did the defense struggle to get off the field? Did his RB have a lot of carries? Does he tuck the ball and run with it often? Was he a contender for passing yards before an injury ever?).

Edit: I should clarify, you actually called him the worst QB to go into the HoF (assuming he makes it) for multiple reasons, not just passing yards. however, my point was to refute the fact that leading the league in passing yards should even matter.

Ok I am going to rephrase it because I'm not going to fall into the trap of comparing QBs from different eras because it is going to insight the same argument that goes nowhere. McNabb would be the worst QB in the hall in terms of accolades (which IMO history determines greatness).

But that is neither here nor there. It is not JUST because McNabb was never in the top 5 in passing yards and its not JUST because he never won a SB and its not JUST because he was never the MVP but when you put all that together can you really say he is one of the greatest QBs of all time?

But I guess this debate boils down to is McNabb's stat line good enough to ignore the rest of his shortcoming? If you say yes then he is a HOFer if you say no like I do then you say no he isn't a HOFer.

Thumper
07-14-2009, 09:20 PM
Ok I am going to rephrase it because I'm not going to fall into the trap of comparing QBs from different eras because it is going to insight the same argument that goes nowhere. McNabb would be the worst QB in the hall in terms of accolades (which IMO history determines greatness).

But that is neither here nor there. It is not JUST because McNabb was never in the top 5 in passing yards and its not JUST because he never won a SB and its not JUST because he was never the MVP but when you put all that together can you really say he is one of the greatest QBs of all time?

But I guess this debate boils down to is McNabb's stat line good enough to ignore the rest of his shortcoming? If you say yes then he is a HOFer if you say no like I do then you say no he isn't a HOFer.

You have unreasonably high expectations of a hall of famer. Because he is not the best ever he should not go into the hall of fame?

Breaking news, not everyone in the hall is the best ever. I mean look at Joe Namath, Terry Bradshaw, Bob Griese, Troy Aikman etc. etc. there are plenty of guys who are not the GOAT in the HOF.

Brothgar
07-14-2009, 09:36 PM
You have unreasonably high expectations of a hall of famer. Because he is not the best ever he should not go into the hall of fame?

Breaking news, not everyone in the hall is the best ever. I mean look at Joe Namath, Terry Bradshaw, Bob Griese, Troy Aikman etc. etc. there are plenty of guys who are not the GOAT in the HOF.

My expectations to be a HOFer is that you must accomplish something. If you go to the Pro Football HOF website they have a page for each inductee and why they are there. What I want is why is McNabb there? Is his stat line really that good? If you could write a page full of McNabb's accomplishments in the league then we'd have something to talk about, Personally I'd say you don't have to be the best ever but you have to be one of the best amongst your peers. I mean is Drew Brees going to be a HOFer?

Thumper
07-14-2009, 09:52 PM
No Drew is not and McNabb has much better stats than him. Brees was completely slightly above average until he got to the Saints where that pass happy offense made him explode.

McNabb's statline is also MUCH better than Drew's.

NY+Giants=NYG
07-15-2009, 07:28 AM
So stats matter, but only when it benefits your argument? McNabb and Simm's stats will not be close when McNabb is on his 14th season (assuming he plays that long).

To me, Phil Simms was a great QB. But McNabb is an even better QB. It's kind of a shame that he might actually miss the HoF because of his lack of rings.

(note: not advocating that McNabb is already HoF material. But if his resume continues on the track, I can't see how you would keep this guy out.)

Better QB? Based on what? Stats? What about the superbowl rings that go with Simms? How about winning big games first of all? Stats are all well and good but win a big game. Unless McNabb really starts churning out stats I don't think he is a hall of famer. If there was a Hall of very good, he'd be in. Rings are important to get in UNLESS.... You have sick, sick stats like a Marino. Look at Aikeman, he doesn't have amazing stats but the 3 rings will got him in. He is a great QB, but still rings do add a punch to it.

Malaka
07-15-2009, 01:20 PM
No Drew is not and McNabb has much better stats than him. Brees was completely slightly above average until he got to the Saints where that pass happy offense made him explode.

McNabb's statline is also MUCH better than Drew's.

If Drew Brees continues his level of play, or at least close to it, he will shatter McNabbs Statline.

Drew Brees 168 TDs 99 INTs
Donovan McNabb 194 TDs 90 INTs

Brees is 2 years younger, he is only behind McNabb 3000 yards when it comes to passing. Barring injury Brees will have much better stats than McNabb other than INTs but Brees won't get in either.

Not to mention other stats like
Completion % Brees 64 Mcnabb 59
Passer Rating Brees 89.4 McNabb 85.9

Drew Brees only has two more ATTs per game than McNabb. Brees 34 McNabb 32.

If McNabb is being considered for the HoF so should Brees.

thenewfeature06
07-15-2009, 01:23 PM
Mcnabb never really had a true #1 besides T.O. and that relationship was rocky but he is a hall of famer in my book and he was always a competitor and could hold his own

Malaka
07-15-2009, 01:24 PM
Mcnabb never really had a true #1 besides T.O. and that relationship was rocky but he is a hall of famer in my book and he was always a competitor and could hold his own

Brees had the Saints as a #1 offense, with Lance Moore, as his #1 receiver... Lance Moore.

thenewfeature06
07-15-2009, 01:30 PM
Brees had the Saints as a #1 offense, with Lance Moore, as his #1 receiver... Lance Moore.

Brees is used to a more pass heavy offense anyway and im not taking anything away from Brees

Thumper
07-15-2009, 02:27 PM
Drew Brees has not touched the type of success that McNabb has had. End of story. Drew Brees can't even get his team in the playoffs while McNabb has led his to 5 NFC Championship games and 1 superbowl.

Sniper
07-15-2009, 02:33 PM
Drew Brees has not touched the type of success that McNabb has had. End of story. Drew Brees can't even get his team in the playoffs while McNabb has led his to 5 NFC Championship games and 1 superbowl.

Stop. Please. "Making it" to games doesn't ******* matter. Winning them does. Neither of them have won a damn thing.

Gay Ork Wang
07-15-2009, 03:12 PM
yes, cause obviously oly the QB counts

CC.SD
07-15-2009, 05:10 PM
Andy Reid is a Fat **** (FF) Looooossssseeeerrrr
McNabb is a Fat choker overthrowing unnecessarily hard passer with the accuracy of a one eyed autistic man and has the intelligence and decision making skills of a dirty pair of socks.



I'm an Eagles fan.
Isn't this pathetic?
I've loved this team for so long and followed them for so long knowing every player, size of player(no ****), and history and college of the players on this team.
For so long now I've cared to much and I'm always let down and dissapointed and crushed with this team.. And I relize How dumb Lurie is, how annoying Reid is (who could have been somebody if he didn't have a stupid pass pass pass mentality) and how much of a overated asshole McNabb is

I know several Eagles fans and you sir, you are definitely an Eagles fan.

Breesy has a shot but he probably needs to win a Super Bowl. He's had a lot of success but only one playoff win. Definitely has plenty of time left though.

jth1331
07-16-2009, 12:23 AM
Honestly, I'd say no. He has been good, yes.
However, his stat sheet will look impressive if he can muster up some more 3000+ yard passing and 20+ TD seasons.
Retiring with 40,000 yards and 250+ TD's will be hard to overlook.

superman8456
07-16-2009, 01:09 AM
Andy Reid is a Fat **** (FF) Looooossssseeeerrrr
McNabb is a Fat choker overthrowing unnecessarily hard passer with the accuracy of a one eyed autistic man and has the intelligence and decision making skills of a dirty pair of socks.



I'm an Eagles fan.
Isn't this pathetic?
I've loved this team for so long and followed them for so long knowing every player, size of player(no ****), and history and college of the players on this team.
For so long now I've cared to much and I'm always let down and dissapointed and crushed with this team.. And I relize How dumb Lurie is, how annoying Reid is (who could have been somebody if he didn't have a stupid pass pass pass mentality) and how much of a overated asshole McNabb is

You can't call yourself an Eagles fan and say this ****. Either that, or you have no idea what you're talking about and listen to WIP to get your football information.

How can you always be let down and disappointed with the Eagles? Sure, they're a roller-coaster ride, but you cannot say that they pulled a great playoff run out of their ass last year. They proved a lot of people wrong, and with the help of the Raiders beating the Buccaneers, got into the playoffs and went far.

You want to call Lurie dumb, cheap, or whatever, but it makes you look stupid because he is none of those things. Joe Banner was in an interview one time and someone asked a question along the lines of the Eagles being cheap. Banner came right back at them with some stat about the Eagles spending the 2nd most money since 2000, being behind the Patriots.

Andy Reid can have that "pass pass pass" mentality, but its no coincidence that Westbrook was injured last year.

I bet you also think the Eagles would be better off without McNabb, right? Well you would be absolutely wrong. He is a leader of this team and has proven he can win, regardless of talent around him.

Brothgar
07-16-2009, 09:40 AM
I bet you also think the Eagles would be better off without McNabb, right? Well you would be absolutely wrong. He is a leader of this team and has proven he can win, regardless of talent around him.

Well depends on what would be put in place of McNabb. Even I the biggest McNabb hater on the board doesn't think that the Eagles should outright cut him. Now if they could get a first and a second round pick for him or another star and an average young QB out of the deal. Maybe.

Sniper
07-16-2009, 02:17 PM
Well depends on what would be put in place of McNabb. Even I the biggest McNabb hater on the board doesn't think that the Eagles should outright cut him. Now if they could get a first and a second round pick for him or another star and an average young QB out of the deal. Maybe.

There's no ******* way any team would give up a 1/2 or a star/young QB for a mid-30s QB with an injury history like McNabb's.

I love the people in Philly who think Kolb or Feeley should start ahead of #5. Cracks me up.

ChezPower4
07-16-2009, 02:43 PM
I love the people in Philly who think Kolb or Feeley should start ahead of #5. Cracks me up.

LAMO, and Jon Kitna or Brad Johnson should start over Romo.

superman8456
07-16-2009, 03:46 PM
There's no ******* way any team would give up a 1/2 or a star/young QB for a mid-30s QB with an injury history like McNabb's.

I love the people in Philly who think Kolb or Feeley should start ahead of #5. Cracks me up.

I know we wouldnt get a 1 & 2, but I think you underestimate the market McNabb would have if he was on the trade block.

Brothgar
07-17-2009, 08:04 AM
LAMO, and Jon Kitna or Brad Johnson should start over Romo.

I wouldn't sleep on Kitna. I think he is an underrated QB not great by any standards but very good.

NY+Giants=NYG
07-17-2009, 08:55 AM
I know we wouldnt get a 1 & 2, but I think you underestimate the market McNabb would have if he was on the trade block.

I am sure people would want him, but I doubt they break the bank and trade top picks for a guy in his 30s, who has his injury history. Not to mention he would have to learn a whole new offense, unless he goes to another WCO system.

no bare feet
07-17-2009, 09:20 AM
I am not huge on projecting futures years for players so as of now neither McNabb nor Brees are HOF worthy. Both have a lot of work to be done.

superman8456
07-18-2009, 12:32 AM
I am sure people would want him, but I doubt they break the bank and trade top picks for a guy in his 30s, who has his injury history. Not to mention he would have to learn a whole new offense, unless he goes to another WCO system.

Minnesota, Houston, and St. Louis would probably all be very interested.

Paranoidmoonduck
07-18-2009, 12:34 AM
Minnesota, Houston, and St. Louis would probably all be very interested.

Why would Houston be very interested?

superman8456
07-18-2009, 12:36 AM
Why would Houston be very interested?

I'm not a fan of Matt Schaub at all. Probably me just hoping they upgrade.

Paranoidmoonduck
07-18-2009, 12:45 AM
I'm not a fan of Matt Schaub at all. Probably me just hoping they upgrade.

I know passer rating isn't the best statistic, but Schaub had an 92 last year to McNabb's 86 and he was sacked way more often. I think Schaub is going to be more than serviceable for a while and I really don't think Kubiak is going to be looking for a replacement anytime soon.

d34ng3l021
07-18-2009, 03:01 AM
Drew Brees has not touched the type of success that McNabb has had. End of story. Drew Brees can't even get his team in the playoffs while McNabb has led his to 5 NFC Championship games and 1 superbowl.

How can you attribute all the Eagles' success as a team to McNabb? I can understand offense, but how far the team goes in the playoffs? Look at the defensive rankings for those teams:

2008: #4 PPG, #3 YPG
2004 (SB): #2 PPG, #10 YPG
2003: #7 PPG, #20 YPG
2002: #2 PPG, #4 YPG
2001: #2 PPG, #7 YPG

These are the defenses that Drew Brees has had since his comeback:

2008: #26 PPG, #23 YPG
2007: #25 PPG, #26 YPG
2006*: #13 PPG, #11 YPG (surprisingly good defense)
2005: #13 PPG, #13 YPG
2004*: #11 PPG, #18 YPG

* = Playoffs

I think it is just unfair to compare how their teams do in the playoffs when McNabb is blessed with a perennial top 10 defense. If somehow Brees can win a ring or two and McNabb around the same, I would think that Brees could make a case to get in the Hall over McNabb, especially considering the current statistical output in their careers. McNabb may put up some nice numbers in the next couple of years with his new weapons, but Brees is a machine and will put up gaudy statistics year in year out for another 5 years at least (maybe up to 10). Brees is 30 years old and relies on timing and accuracy in his passes; he could be playing for a while.

In fact, what do people think of Drew Brees' chance into the Hall of Fame? Would he go in with a ring (maybe 2) and another 7-8 years of domination? I don't see a reason for him to slow down, except maybe a more balanced attack (and we all know that isn't happening with Reggie Bush in town...).

Paranoidmoonduck
07-18-2009, 03:16 AM
7-8 years of domination? You're telling me the Saints will hold together a strong offense and Brees will still be running it when he's 38? I think it's wholly unreasonable to suggest that Brees can bank on more than another 4 years of strong play, especially considering he's had shoulder trouble before. Are the Saints going to be a Superbowl team in the next 4 years? It's entirely possible, but I wouldn't bank on it.

Has McNabb been afforded more opportunities because of his defense? You bet. But the fact that he's had them and Brees hasn't doesn't mean Brees gets more Hall consideration as some sort of recompense. Drew Brees, as of right now, as big a fan of his as I am (I desperately wanted Oakland to go after him when he was a FA), has no claim to the Hall right now and needs to be tremendously successful going to forward for a case to made. McNabb, as it stands, is himself just short of having a serious case.

d34ng3l021
07-18-2009, 03:58 AM
7-8 years of domination? You're telling me the Saints will hold together a strong offense and Brees will still be running it when he's 38? I think it's wholly unreasonable to suggest that Brees can bank on more than another 4 years of strong play, especially considering he's had shoulder trouble before. Are the Saints going to be a Superbowl team in the next 4 years? It's entirely possible, but I wouldn't bank on it.

Has McNabb been afforded more opportunities because of his defense? You bet. But the fact that he's had them and Brees hasn't doesn't mean Brees gets more Hall consideration as some sort of recompense. Drew Brees, as of right now, as big a fan of his as I am (I desperately wanted Oakland to go after him when he was a FA), has no claim to the Hall right now and needs to be tremendously successful going to forward for a case to made. McNabb, as it stands, is himself just short of having a serious case.

I think he can put up numbers like this for another 5 years, but I was asking whether 7-8 good years would get him into the HoF. I think it is reasonable to possibly expect this sort of production for another 7 or so years out of him. His strengths include reading defenses, accuracy, and timing with the WRs; none of those decline significantly as you reach the 35s. Brees has increased his yardage and TD total for the past 4 years in a row while boasting a solid 65% comp. rate during that time. He may never get close to 5000 yards again, but I can see 4000-4500 yards and 25-30 TDs out of him for a while. Whether or not the Saints will be Superbowl worthy is another thing completely.

The Eagles have a team that is Superbowl ready and have a higher chance of getting there within the next few years, but all Brees needs is a solid defense that doesn't hold the offense back to have a shot at a SB win.

I wasn't implying that the Hall would recompense for Brees' situation, but if Brees and McNabb finished with the same amount of rings, would McNabb get more consideration from the Hall because of his 5 NFCCGs and 0 SB wins over Brees (and his probable statistical superiority)?

Paranoidmoonduck
07-18-2009, 04:15 AM
I don't know. I guess? It's a useless discussion, because 7 more years of this kind of production would make Brees one of the most productive quarterbacks in the modern era of football. While it's possible, it's far from likely. If it happens, we can revisit the discussion, but for now Brees isn't Hall-bound and if I can to bet on it, I would bet that he doesn't wind up in the Hall.

Geo
07-18-2009, 10:48 AM
Brees is the best pure passer in the game right now. If he can continue to play around this level for at least 4 more years, he should get into the Hall. Because he will be as good as Dan Fouts if not actually better.

Fouts' career numbers (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/F/FoutDa00.htm)

And I think Brees can do it. He gets rid of the ball quick, it hopefully limits chances of injury. He tore his shoulder up in his last game with San Diego in trying to recover a lost fumble, not because of anything to do with him as the QB.

Paranoidmoonduck
07-18-2009, 02:42 PM
Shoulder trouble is shoulder trouble. Brees completely changed his throwing motion after the injury anyhow, but it doesn't mean that he can't run into trouble again. Having torn a shoulder once increases the chances of injuring it again hugely.

The question isn't whether Brees can beat Fouts' numbers, it's whether he can eclipse the perceived importance Fouts had to the game. That is something I am far less sure of.

BlindSite
07-18-2009, 07:58 PM
Shoulder trouble is shoulder trouble. Brees completely changed his throwing motion after the injury anyhow, but it doesn't mean that he can't run into trouble again. Having torn a shoulder once increases the chances of injuring it again hugely.

The question isn't whether Brees can beat Fouts' numbers, it's whether he can eclipse the perceived importance Fouts had to the game. That is something I am far less sure of.

Realistically the likelihood of re-injuring a shoulder comes with activity, which is bad news for an NFL QB but most injuries of the shoulder occur in a single part of what is a very complex grouping of muscles and tendons from the armpit to the back of the arm.

It's possible that by altering his motion the tortion that was being put on whatever tore or got hurt is reduced or even removed so much so that it's unlikely he has an issue again.

Then again there's a pretty big chance when he's under pressure he forgets whatever he was taught and worked on and just flings it causing problems.

I dunno I suppose the risk is there, but one could argue that risk isn't any higher than concussions or breaking a leg or tearing an ACL.

Paranoidmoonduck
07-18-2009, 08:09 PM
Realistically the likelihood of re-injuring a shoulder comes with activity, which is bad news for an NFL QB but most injuries of the shoulder occur in a single part of what is a very complex grouping of muscles and tendons from the armpit to the back of the arm.

It's possible that by altering his motion the tortion that was being put on whatever tore or got hurt is reduced or even removed so much so that it's unlikely he has an issue again.

Then again there's a pretty big chance when he's under pressure he forgets whatever he was taught and worked on and just flings it causing problems.

Brees' motion change, as far as I know, wasn't as much an effort to make his shoulder less injury prone (as someone already mentioned, he hadn't hurt it by throwing in the first place), but it was part of the rebuilding process and it had fantastic results. Really, Brees is the best example I've ever seen of a NFL quarterback significantly changing his motion after hitting the pros and having that good a result. However, tendon damage is tendon damage. Any repair job is less ideal than no repair job being needed at all, and no matter how much you strengthen the muscles around it the tendons are either sacrificing elasticity or are a bit loose. This is at least my experience as a high school quarterback who tore his shoulder.

I dunno I suppose the risk is there, but one could argue that risk isn't any higher than concussions or breaking a leg or tearing an ACL.

Considering how often a quarterback uses his right shoulder and how often they tend to get hit as they release the ball, I would say the risk is higher. At any rate, I was just pointing out that you can't simply say that since Brees' skill set is based heavily around mental acuity, he'll age gracefully. His shoulder will lose gas and he will be less and less of a great deep passer. Not saying that he's absolutely going to get a shoulder injury, just that the number thrown out there (7-8 years of consistent productivity like he had in 2008) is a ridiculously unlikely event (for more reasons than simply his own health).

BlindSite
07-18-2009, 08:34 PM
Fouts played till he was 36 and Brees only has 7 years starting experience, so realistically if he lasts till he's 36 he would be in 44-47 thousand yard range.

Injuries are a concern, but Favre has a degenerative hip condition (the same as bo jacksons), almost died in a car accident, had a vicodin addiction, various injuries in various body parts, concussions, family deaths and still managed to become one of the best of all time.

Fouts, Jim Kelly, Marino all had injuries from what I've been able to dig up, I think it's going to go with the territory of playing for over a decade in one of the worlds toughest sports.

I agree an injury may derail his hopes, but when is that not a factor in football?

Paranoidmoonduck
07-18-2009, 08:40 PM
Yes, but Favre is a freak and Marino could still toss the ball when his knees gave out. I don't know anything about Kelly or Fouts' injuries, but I don't believe they were major or involved their throwing arm.

Truth be told, the number of 30 year old quarterbacks who I have ever reasonably predicted as likely candidates to have 8 more years of production matching their production at that point is extremely small. Like, Peyton Manning and no one else small.

BlindSite
07-18-2009, 08:44 PM
Yes, but Favre is a freak and Marino could still toss the ball when his knees gave out. I don't know anything about Kelly or Fouts' injuries, but I don't believe they were major or involved their throwing arm.

Truth be told, the number of 30 year old quarterbacks who I have ever reasonably predicted as likely candidates to have 8 more years of production matching their production at that point is extremely small. Like, Peyton Manning and no one else small.

He doesn't need 8 years of production. He's been in the league for 8 years but only started for 7 and his first year wasn't all that great.

Realistically if he has another 6 years around the production he's had for the last few seasons he'll make a serious push.

That will put him at 36 and that's not outside the realm of possibility for a QB.

Brothgar
08-02-2009, 07:58 PM
I wanted to be non biased (for once) So I'm looking at McNabb with four more average seasons (average for him) Average was determined based on his current career totals divided by the number of seasons.


Numbers (All Career with 4 more average years)
Completions: 3547.6
Rank (all time NFL): 9-10 depending on Kerry Collin's numbers for the rest of his career.


Attempts: 6024.2
Rank: 10

Yards: 41048
Rank:10

TD: 272
Rank: 10 - 14 Depending on the performances of Tom Brady, Kurt Warner, Kerry Collins, and Drew Brees.

Records
1st - Most consecutive passes completed 24
2nd - Lowest interception percentage. 2.12 (second to Neil O'Donald with 2.11)
t-3rd Most games with 4 or more TD's in a single season.


Accolades

5x Pro Bowler (2000, 2001, 2002, 2003, 2004)
NFC Offensive Player of the Year (2004)
NFC Champion (2004).

He has HOF numbers there is no doubt about that (assuming the 4 years of average production) You know who else is a HOFer I was kind of surprised Drew Bledsoe. Drew Brees would likely have similar or better numbers as well. I have to say that he is borderline but that interception percentage is something that will put him over.

Seamus2602
08-03-2009, 07:57 AM
Without getting into the numbers debate, I will mention this. There are, in my opinion, definately two and probably three Hall of Fame Quarterbacks still playing. They are Peyton Manning, Tom Brady and possibly Kurt Warner. All three have a number of things in common, things that Donovan McNabb lacks. Payton Manning, Tom Brady and Kurt Warner have all been named league MVP, have all been named All-Pro, and have all led Superbowl winning teams.

How can you declare a player to be amongst the best of All-Time when he has never even been the 2nd best Quarterback of the year? McNabb is a good, Franchise Quarterback. You don't get into the Hall of Fame by being good. You get in by being great. Maybe if McNabb was to win a Superbowl, finally get a ring, then yeah maybe he could have a shot. But if McNabb retires now he doesn't go to the Hall of Fame. Manning, Brady and probably Warner would.

Halsey
08-03-2009, 08:26 AM
I'd put him in. Many people blame him for the Eagles not winning a Super Bowl, but the fact is he's been the MVP of a very good, consistently top 10 franchise for the last decade. I blame the Eagles not getting over the hump more on the lack of skill position talent on offense. Mcnabb has been throwing to below average targets and handing off to an inconsistent rushing attack. The Eagles couldn't even muster 50 rushing yards in their 24-21 Super Bowl loss to the Patriots. Guess who threw for all 21 of the Eagles points?

Brothgar
08-03-2009, 11:00 AM
Without getting into the numbers debate, I will mention this. There are, in my opinion, definately two and probably three Hall of Fame Quarterbacks still playing. They are Peyton Manning, Tom Brady and possibly Kurt Warner. All three have a number of things in common, things that Donovan McNabb lacks. Payton Manning, Tom Brady and Kurt Warner have all been named league MVP, have all been named All-Pro, and have all led Superbowl winning teams.

How can you declare a player to be amongst the best of All-Time when he has never even been the 2nd best Quarterback of the year? McNabb is a good, Franchise Quarterback. You don't get into the Hall of Fame by being good. You get in by being great. Maybe if McNabb was to win a Superbowl, finally get a ring, then yeah maybe he could have a shot. But if McNabb retires now he doesn't go to the Hall of Fame. Manning, Brady and probably Warner would.

Well no one in their right minds would put McNabb in the hall if he retired right now. The only name that can be dropped to the defense of McNabb is Sonny Jurgensen he is in the hall of fame never won a super bowl and was never named MVP. McNabb has across the board better numbers than him (assuming 4 more years of his career average seasons). So now the biggest question arises what numbers matter? When he retired Jurgansen was top 5 in TDs completions and yards all time. I think that most of his career he couldn't be considered one of the top two QBs of his time either (Johnny Unitas and Frank Tarkanian would likely hold those honors). If we only went on pure numbers then McNabb would have to be in the hall because he is beating Jugensen in all statistical categories. But if they do put McNabb into the hall with his numbers we would likely have to put in Karry Collins, Drew Bledsoe and Drew Brees as well does that water down the hall?


So basically the argument boils down to...

Con: McNabb never had a SB or MVP.
Pro: There are players in the hall that do not have SB or MVP.
Con There are 3 that do. All of them have completed something that McNabb hasn't.
Pro: His numbers are better than most of the QBs that are in the Hall.
Con: Those numbers are augmented by the times he played in which favored offenses.

or to put it simply accomplishments vs numbers do either alone get you into the hall?

eaglesalltheway
08-03-2009, 11:07 AM
Well no one in their right minds would put McNabb in the hall if he retired right now. The only name that can be dropped to the defense of McNabb is Sonny Jurgensen he is in the hall of fame never won a super bowl and was never named MVP. McNabb has across the board better numbers than him (assuming 4 more years of his career average seasons). So now the biggest question arises what numbers matter? When he retired Jurgansen was top 5 in TDs completions and yards all time. I think that most of his career he couldn't be considered one of the top two QBs of his time either (Johnny Unitas and Frank Tarkanian would likely hold those honors). If we only went on pure numbers then McNabb would have to be in the hall because he is beating Jugensen in all statistical categories. But if they do put McNabb into the hall with his numbers we would likely have to put in Karry Collins, Drew Bledsoe and Drew Brees as well does that water down the hall?


So basically the argument boils down to...

Con: McNabb never had a SB or MVP.
Pro: There are players in the hall that do not have SB or MVP.
Con There are 3 that do. All of them have completed something that McNabb hasn't.
Pro: His numbers are better than most of the QBs that are in the Hall.
Con: Those numbers are augmented by the times he played in which favored offenses.

or to put it simply accomplishments vs numbers do either alone get you into the hall?

In order for McNabb to even have a chance he needs to A... keep up a high level of production, B... win a Superbowl, C... be named MVP. If he can do two of those, espectially if it is B and C, I'd say he is a lock to go in, but that remains to be seen. If he can get one of either B or C, then the argument will be real tough. But as it stands now, he is not a HOFer...

NY+Giants=NYG
08-03-2009, 11:39 AM
In order for McNabb to even have a chance he needs to A... keep up a high level of production, B... win a Superbowl, C... be named MVP. If he can do two of those, espectially if it is B and C, I'd say he is a lock to go in, but that remains to be seen. If he can get one of either B or C, then the argument will be real tough. But as it stands now, he is not a HOFer...

Just win a big game or come up huge consistently. He has his shot in front of the world during the superbowl, the last drive. The one where TO said McNabb got tired. Also, clock management was an issue as well, which falls on Andy and the QB.

McNabb needs to win big games consistency to go along with his stellar production.

eaglesalltheway
08-03-2009, 11:40 AM
Just win a big game or come up huge consistently. He has his shot in front of the world during the superbowl, the last drive. The one where TO said McNabb got tired. Also, clock management was an issue as well, which falls on Andy and the QB.

McNabb needs to win big games consistency to go along with his stellar production.

That is kind of assumed there with the superbowl winning, you know what I mean?

NY+Giants=NYG
08-03-2009, 12:03 PM
That is kind of assumed there with the superbowl winning, you know what I mean?

Well you can win a superbowl and not really do much because your special teams scores points, or defense ints alot of passes too.