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View Full Version : Round 2: NFC East vs. NFC North - Best Division All-Pro Team


diabsoule
05-16-2009, 04:15 PM
NFC East

QB- Eli Manning (NYG)
RB- Brian Westbrook (PHI)
FB- Madison Hedgecock (NYG)
WR- Roy Williams (DAL)
WR- Santana Moss (WSH)
TE- Jason Witten (DAL)
LT- David Diehl (NYG)
LG- Chris Snee (NYG)
C- Shaun O'Hara (NYG)
RG- Leonard Davis (DAL)
RT- Jason Peters (PHI)

DE- Justin Tuck (NYG)
DT- Brodrick Bunkley (PHI)
DT- Albert Haynesworth (WSH)
DE- Osi Umenyiora (NYG)
LB- DeMarcus Ware (DAL)
LB- London Fletcher-Baker (WSH)
LB- Michael Boley (NYG
CB- Sheldon Brown (PHI)
FS- LaRon Landry (WSH)
SS- Quintin Mikell (PHI)
CB- Corey Webster (NYG)

7 Notable Reserves: QB Donavon McNabb (PHI), RB Brandon Jacobs (NYG), RB Clinton Portis (WAS), CB Terrance Newman (DAL), CB Asante Samuel (PHI), DE Trent Cole (PHI), PR/KR DeSean Jackson (PHI)

NFC North

QB Jay Cutler (CHI)
RB Adrian Peterson (MIN)
FB Naufahu Tahi (MIN)
WR Calvin Johnson (DET)
WR Greg Jennings (GB)
TE Greg Olsen (CHI)
LT Bryant McKinney (MIN)
LG Steve Hutchinson (MIN)
C Olin Kreutz (CHI)
G Anthony Herrera (MIN)
RT Kevin Shaffer (CHI)

DE Jared Allen (MIN)
DT Pat Williams (MIN)
DT Kevin Williams (MIN)
DE Aaron Kampman (GB)
OLB Lance Briggs (CHI)
MLB Brian Urlacher (CHI)
OLB Chad Greenway (MIN)
CB Charles Woodson (GB)
CB Antoine Winfield (MIN)
FS Nick Collins (GB)
SS Kevin Payne (CHI)

7 Notable Reserves: QB Aaron Rodgers (GB), RB Matt Forte (CHI), KR/PR Devin Hester (CHI), CB Charles Tillman (CHI), WR Bernard Berrian (MIN), WR Donald Driver (GB), LB A.J. Hawk (GB)

BeerBaron
05-16-2009, 04:53 PM
Still not in love with the East's offense. The North's D is going to crush the run up front and make Manning beat them, something I don't know if he can do throwing to those weapons.

eaglesalltheway
05-16-2009, 05:00 PM
This is really close, I've been thinkinf for a while now, I'm being unbiased, so here it goes.

As far as matchups go, here it is...
East receivers vs North coverage. Advantage: East, but just barely. These are the two weaknesses when these two units are on the field. Charles Woodson is the bright spot in that secondary, and Witten is the bright spot for the receivers. Witten is the top TE in the NFL, IMO, and though they won't be matched up on eachother, I'm trying to compare the best thing the North has there. Woodson is a great CB, one of the tops in the league, I'd say top 4-8, depending on you opinion. Witten is either the #1 or #2 TE, however you see it. The rest of the matchup (Winfield, Payne, Collins) vs (Williams, Moss, DeSean) is pretty much a wash. But key contributors for the North is terms of coverage will come from Brian Urlacher, and key help on offense, receiving-wise, will come from Westbrook.

OK, I can't to that 5 more times, it'd be a waste of time, so i'm just going to say which way I think it goes and if anyone feels incredibly offended by it, or doesn't agree with it, I'll explain...

East Rushing vs North Run Stopping. Advantage: North, also slightly.

East Pass Protection vs. North pass rush. Advantage: East, again close.

North Receivers vs East coverage. Advantage: Draw. This is the best part of this matchup, IMO. If I had to swign either way, I'd say North, as they have three legitimate weapns in CJ, Jennings, and Olsen, as well as threats in Forte and Driver.

North Rushing vs East Run Stopping. Advantage: East, very close. I'll elaborat as many will wonder here. Any time AD is on you have a distinct advantage, but the East's DL is a force stopping the run, and the LB corp is solid as well. I said it in the matchup vs the NFC S, I think that O-line is weak, in comparison to some other teams...

North Pass Protection vs. East Pass Rushing. Advantage: East. Ware, Osi, Tuck, Albert against that Ol is a mismatch in favor of the East. This may be the biggest disparity here.

I think the matchups are won and lost in the trenches, and the two DLs are strengths on each team. I think the North's OL is not as good as the East's, and therefore, the East's DL will be able to make more of an impact than the North's.

OSUGiants17
05-16-2009, 05:19 PM
I'm a Giants fan and I still think that the North would win this one.

AntoinCD
05-16-2009, 05:29 PM
Ive got to go with the NFC North on this one. Both defensive lines are ridiculous, but I have to give the LBs for the North the edge. D-Ware at SAM in a 43 is a bit iffy but he would give an amazing threat in blitz packages. Offensviely the East isn't that great especially passing wise outside of Witten and it would be so tough to run on the NFC North. There is a significant weakness at safety for the NFC North, however when you look at their offense with Cutler, AD, Calvin Johnson and Greg Jennings it would be so hard to stop them. Think about it-top 10 QB, probably the top RB and two top 10 WRs, plus Greg Olsen who I personally think is very underrated. If that O-line can give Cutler any time at all then it's an easy win for the North but with the East's pass rush it becomes a lot closer. The edge is because the North will be able to run on the East better than the East can run on the North

Mr. Stiller
05-16-2009, 05:30 PM
NFC East

QB- Eli Manning (NYG)
RB- Brian Westbrook (PHI)
FB- Madison Hedgecock (NYG)
WR- Roy Williams (DAL)
WR- Santana Moss (WSH)
TE- Jason Witten (DAL)
LT- David Diehl (NYG)
LG- Chris Snee (NYG)
C- Shaun O'Hara (NYG)
RG- Leonard Davis (DAL)
RT- Jason Peters (PHI)

DE- Justin Tuck (NYG)
DT- Brodrick Bunkley (PHI)
DT- Albert Haynesworth (WSH)
DE- Osi Umenyiora (NYG)
LB- DeMarcus Ware (DAL)
LB- London Fletcher-Baker (WSH)
LB- Michael Boley (NYG
CB- Sheldon Brown (PHI)
FS- LaRon Landry (WSH)
SS- Quintin Mikell (PHI)
CB- Corey Webster (NYG)

7 Notable Reserves: QB Donavon McNabb (PHI), RB Brandon Jacobs (NYG), RB Clinton Portis (WAS), CB Terrance Newman (DAL), CB Asante Samuel (PHI), DE Trent Cole (PHI), PR/KR DeSean Jackson (PHI)

NFC North

QB Jay Cutler (CHI)
RB Adrian Peterson (MIN)
FB Naufahu Tahi (MIN)
WR Calvin Johnson (DET)
WR Greg Jennings (GB)
TE Greg Olsen (CHI)
LT Bryant McKinney (MIN)
LG Steve Hutchinson (MIN)
C Olin Kreutz (CHI)
G Anthony Herrera (MIN)
RT Kevin Shaffer (CHI)

DE Jared Allen (MIN)
DT Pat Williams (MIN)
DT Kevin Williams (MIN)
DE Aaron Kampman (GB)
OLB Lance Briggs (CHI)
MLB Brian Urlacher (CHI)
OLB Chad Greenway (MIN)
CB Charles Woodson (GB)
CB Antoine Winfield (MIN)
FS Nick Collins (GB)
SS Kevin Payne (CHI)

7 Notable Reserves: QB Aaron Rodgers (GB), RB Matt Forte (CHI), KR/PR Devin Hester (CHI), CB Charles Tillman (CHI), WR Bernard Berrian (MIN), WR Donald Driver (GB), LB A.J. Hawk (GB)

Just me but:


QB: North
RB: North
TE: East
OL:North
DL: Push
LB: North
CB: North
S: East

Not a fan of Cutler, but Eli's going to have 0 run game to help him.

Kampman/Allen are 2 of the best Complete DE's in the league and No one runs on Pat/Kevin Williams.

I don't think Roy Williams is special, hasn't really shown it in Detroit or Dallas... Moss could cause problems but I'd put Woodson on him.

Safeties are extremely weak for the North but, yeah, I have to go with the North on this one.

That said...

Looking at the Sack #'s from last year..

LT: Diehl ~ 6.5....... McKinnie 4.0
LG: Snee ~ 1 ..... Hutchinson 7.0
C: O'Hara ~ 2... Kreutz 0
RG: Davis ~ 4.5 ... Herrerra 7.5 (Garza should be the starting RG or Beekman... 2.5 and 1.25 sacks respectfully)
RT: Peters ~ 11.5 Sacks ...Shaffer 4.5

Thats 26 Sacks to 23 (16.75 if you replace Herrera with Beekman).

Crickett
05-16-2009, 05:39 PM
Not a fan of Cutler, but Eli's going to have 0 run game to help him.

Well, here's why.

2008 Washington Redskins 16 16 342 1,487 4.3 31 9 28 218 7.8 29 0 3 3


2008 Philadelphia Eagles 14 14 233 936 4.0 39T 9 54 402 7.4 47 5 2 1

jkpigskin
05-16-2009, 05:45 PM
the defenses are pretty close but i think the north's O is miles ahead than the east
went with north

BmoreBlackByrdz
05-16-2009, 05:45 PM
Eli over Donovan? Westbrook over Portis? yuck, I vote North, but this is hella close. I just can't see Eli leading that team to victory against a defense like the North and NO run game.

Eaglez.Fan
05-16-2009, 05:46 PM
Andrews > Peters for RT, btw.

BeerBaron
05-16-2009, 06:17 PM
Just me but:


QB: North
RB: North
TE: East
OL:North
DL: Push
LB: North
CB: North
S: East


And don't bet on that for long. I'm not trying to take away from Witten here, I think he might honestly have a claim as the best all around TE in the game, but Olsen is twice the athlete and I expect a huge year from him coming up here.

Just thought i'd point that out....

eaglesalltheway
05-16-2009, 06:21 PM
And don't bet on that for long. I'm not trying to take away from Witten here, I think he might honestly have a claim as the best all around TE in the game, but Olsen is twice the athlete and I expect a huge year from him coming up here.

Just thought i'd point that out....

I liek Olsen a lot, and I am also in the corner that believes Witten is the #1 TE. But Olsen hasn't showed the all-around game Witten has just yet. Olsen has made very little, if any, impact as a blocker. Witten is one of the better blocking TEs in the game, and he is also in the top 2 or 3 as a receiver as well. I don't think Olsen will be there just yet, but he certainly has the potential to be right up there in two or three years.

BeerBaron
05-16-2009, 06:24 PM
I liek Olsen a lot, and I am also in the corner that believes Witten is the #1 TE. But Olsen hasn't showed the all-around game Witten has just yet. Olsen has made very little, if any, impact as a blocker. Witten is one of the better blocking TEs in the game, and he is also in the top 2 or 3 as a receiver as well. I don't think Olsen will be there just yet, but he certainly has the potential to be right up there in two or three years.

Well thats why I only said twice the athlete and that Witten has that won for now. I really do expect huge things from Olsen this year and so does our coaching staff. Next year at this time I really do expect him to be mentioned amongst the top 3-5 TE's in the game. He's certainly got a crazy high ceiling and he's been working on improving as a blocker as well i just read a few days ago.

eaglesalltheway
05-16-2009, 06:27 PM
Well thats why I only said twice the athlete and that Witten has that won for now. I really do expect huge things from Olsen this year and so does our coaching staff. Next year at this time I really do expect him to be mentioned amongst the top 3-5 TE's in the game. He's certainly got a crazy high ceiling and he's been working on improving as a blocker as well i just read a few days ago.

He's got a bit to go as a blocker, but if he wants to be recognized in that 3-5 range, he will need to continue his progression as a receiver, as well as improve greatly as a blocker. He does have the capability to do it, I agree there.

wicket
05-16-2009, 06:28 PM
East for me. (but its close)
I like the OLine of the East quite a bit more than the north.
I have to say that these are about two of the scariest DLines imaginable.
Dont like the easts LB's
Dont like the norths DB's
I think people overrate cutler a bit.
QB: north slight edge
RB: north very slight edge
WR: north
TE: east, pretty big edge
OL: east
DL: wash
LB: north
DB: east by a massive margin (on account of safeties mainly)

Maybe Next Year Millen2
05-16-2009, 06:41 PM
Whats with the Easts corners in this.

Sheldon Brown and Corey Webster really? Try Carlos Rogers,Asante Samuel,Terrence Newman or even Aaron Ross all better than Webster and probably Sheldon too. Samuels is better than Brown.

And Moss is the second best WR? I guess since DeSean has to prove it for more than one year. QB is a tough call between Eli and Donovan and RB is tough between Portis and Westbrook.

And why don't you use SAM and Will. Greenway is a will I thought, wouldn't the best prototype SAM be Julian Peterson. But I guess Dallas runs a 3-4 so you could just used OLB so therefore Greenway would get it.

And RT for the North, if we are switching LTs like with Peters over I'd put Pace. Gosder Cherilus has more to prove but he's an up and coming Right Tackle in the North and he had a solid year last year getting better as the year went on. I'd take Gosder over Schaffer but not Pace if we are switching. Schaffer must be a throw in.

diabsoule
05-16-2009, 06:48 PM
The East's pass rush is insane. If they get at Cutler a couple of times it would definitely rattle him.

Gay Ork Wang
05-16-2009, 06:49 PM
Whats with the Easts corners in this.

Sheldon Brown and Corey Webster really? Try Carlos Rogers,Asante Samuel,Terrence Newman or even Aaron Ross all better than Webster and probably Sheldon too. Samuels is better than Brown.

And Moss is the second best WR? I guess since DeSean has to prove it for more than one year. QB is a tough call between Eli and Donovan and RB is tough between Portis and Westbrook.

And why don't you use SAM and Will. Greenway is a will I thought, wouldn't the best prototype SAM be Julian Peterson. But I guess Dallas runs a 3-4 so you could just used OLB so therefore Greenway would get it.

And RT for the North, if we are switching LTs like with Peters over I'd put Pace. Gosder Cherilus has more to prove but he's an up and coming Right Tackle in the North and he had a solid year last year getting better as the year went on. I'd take Gosder over Schaffer but not Pace if we are switching. Schaffer must be a throw in.
Seriously Sheldon Brown and Corey Webster were better than all of them

Maybe Next Year Millen2
05-16-2009, 06:55 PM
Seriously Sheldon Brown and Corey Webster were better than all of them

Well when you cover the number 2 receivers you'll look better. Samuels,Rogers and Newman and Ross all cover number 1 receivers. Plus Samuels and Newman have had better careers than Brown and Webster. Ross and Rogers have had better careers than Webster too. Webster had a good 2008 but his career was has been shaky.

Gay Ork Wang
05-16-2009, 06:57 PM
why do people insist on #1 CB will always stick to the #1 WR? i do not understand.

Maybe Next Year Millen2
05-16-2009, 07:17 PM
why do people insist on #1 CB will always stick to the #1 WR? i do not understand.

Why do people not understand people move the number 1 WR around to avoid the number 1 cornerbacks for a reason. Webster and Brown are not number 1 corners. How can they be the best in the division. That is what I was saying, not that they 100% of the time covered number 2 WRs. The majority of the time, yes I would say they covered number 2 WRs though. Corners are messed up IMO but oh well its just a poll. If the East fans agree I'll roll with it.

And I think the East would win if they used McNabb instead of Eli and Andy Reids offense. Also at FB, I used Cooley as an H-back. East have a bunch of hybrid offensive and defensive players that can do some damage.

Gay Ork Wang
05-16-2009, 07:19 PM
Both have not allowed a single touchdown. there were only about 70 passes thrown in the direction of brown. Asante Samuel got burned by guys like Devin Hester.

GB12
05-16-2009, 07:52 PM
Whats with the Easts corners in this.

Sheldon Brown and Corey Webster really? Try Carlos Rogers,Asante Samuel,Terrence Newman or even Aaron Ross all better than Webster and probably Sheldon too. Samuels is better than Brown.
The only one of those that could be ahead of Brown and Webster is Newman. Webster is better than Aaron Ross. If you won't take my word for it, just ask any Giants fan. And Carlos Rogers? GTFO.

Maybe Next Year Millen2
05-16-2009, 07:52 PM
Over their entire careers no tds or just last year no tds. I've seen Webster get burnt plenty before 2008. And Webster did give up 1 td in 2008 but again it depends on the wide outs they are covering(for the majority of time Samuel/Newman/Ross took on the number 1s) and the coverages that are called to determine who's "fault" it was. Unless you know the coverage called, its very difficult to determine who's fault it was someitmes. Most times teams allow the underneath routes and try to stop progression and YAC. Samuel only gave up 3tds and Rogers gave up 4 tds, Webster 1, Brown 0. Newman was hurt some of the year. However, how many times in the redzone did Webster/Brown cover the number 1. How many times are they in zone coverage and don't get help but still get the fault? How many times do they get no pass rush and still get the fault.

I've seen Webster burnt a ton in his career. He may have had a good year in 2008 but I'm not taking him over Samuel or Newman(if healthy) or Rogers.

As for Sheldon Brown, I'm not saying Brown isn't a good corner and one bad game for Samuels(covering Chicagos fastest receiver) doesn't neglect a whole very strong career with game changing ints which are important too. The turnover battle would be big in an all star game like this. Brown I'd accept more than Webster no matter how good Webster played last year.

someone447
05-16-2009, 08:00 PM
This one is incredibly close, but I gave it to the North by a hair. I thik their offense wins it for them. If the Oline can give Cutler ANY amount of time the East's corners can't cover the Norths WRs.

Sniper
05-16-2009, 08:02 PM
Sheldon Brown>Asante Samuel in coverage.

Maybe Next Year Millen2
05-16-2009, 08:08 PM
Samuel was only thrown at only 78 times. Samuel usually covers the best WRs the majority of the time for Philly, he only gave up 4 tds.

And what the heck are talking about that Hester burnt Samuel? Maybe on one play. 3 catches for 27 yards. One 20 yard catch. Ok he burnt him lol. 27 yards great game for Hester.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/players/profile?playerId=9643

Sniper
05-16-2009, 08:09 PM
Samuel was only thrown at only 78 times. Samuel usually covers the best WRs the majority of the time for Philly, he only gave up 4 tds.

Samuel doesn't cover anyone most of the time. He plays a ton of short zone. Brown was significantly better than Samuel this year.

BeerBaron
05-16-2009, 08:10 PM
Samuel was only thrown at only 78 times. Samuel usually covers the best WRs the majority of the time for Philly, he only gave up 4 tds.

And what the heck are talking about that Hester burnt Samuel? Maybe on one play. 3 catches for 27 yards. One 20 yard catch. Ok he burnt him lol. 27 yards great game for Hester.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/players/profile?playerId=9643

Hester burnt a lot of people last year, usually only to have Orton severely over/under throw him or the ball would hit right off of Hester's hands.....

.....1/2 of that problem will be fixed this year with Cutler who has some deep ball accuracy. If Hester works on the other half, he could be damn scary.

Sniper
05-16-2009, 08:11 PM
5. Sheldon Brown, Philadelphia Eagles
Season Totals: 63 attempts, 4.84 YPA, 44.44 Forced INC%, 0 TDs, 1 INT

My two cents: I have been calling Sheldon Brown overrated for a few years now, but he sure did shut me up this season. Among CBs with at least 40 attempts, Brown was behind only Brandon Flowers, Samari Rolle and Corey Webster with a 4.84 YPA. In a must win situation during the Eagles Week 17 game against Dallas, Brown was dominant. Brown was thrown at five times, allowed nine yards, and intercepted a pass.

20. Asante Samuel, Philadelphia Eagles
Season Totals: 78 attempts, 6.51 YPA, 41.03 Forced INC%, 3 TDs, 4 INTs

My two cents: I would say that Asante Samuel is probably the least deserving player who made the Pro Bowl. Samuel didnít play badly, he just wasnít special. Teammate Sheldon Brown outplayed him to a ridiculous degree, yet Samuel got the Pro Bowl nod because of a couple of highlight reel INTs. Brown had better numbers across the board, save for Samuelís three more INTs. Maybe Samuel and Antoine Winfield can talk about how they stole Pro Bowl spots from two of the best CBs in the league.

Thanks for stopping by.

LonghornsLegend
05-16-2009, 08:11 PM
And don't bet on that for long. I'm not trying to take away from Witten here, I think he might honestly have a claim as the best all around TE in the game, but Olsen is twice the athlete and I expect a huge year from him coming up here.

Just thought i'd point that out....

Oh please, let's not even go there.


"Don't bet on it for long" ?


Yea because Witten is real old huh? Twice the athlete is a huge stretch and even if it wasn't being an athlete hardly makes you a good TE, ask Vernon Davis.


I still voted North, but Witten is a dominant TE and you can't obviously expect someone like Olsen to go from 500 yards and 50 catches a season to surpass Witten anytime soon, or far from now.


Witten has been putting up HOF numbers to start his career, Olsen doesn't even deserve to be mentioned in the same sentence as taking over the TE throne yet...I love Olsen, but let's not pump him up that much yet.


I say the same thing to people who talk about Bennett and Witten the same way, and Martellus is twice the athlete that Olsen is or will be.

Gay Ork Wang
05-16-2009, 08:12 PM
that was really far fetched BeerBaron. Olsen is nowhere close Wittens level

BeerBaron
05-16-2009, 08:14 PM
Oh please, let's not even go there.


"Don't bet on it for long" ?


Yea because Witten is real old huh? Twice the athlete is a huge stretch and even if it wasn't being an athlete hardly makes you a good TE, ask Vernon Davis.

Dude....seriously. I clearly said "not to take anything away from Witten" because I wasn't taking anything away from Witten.

Jesus Christ...seriously? Where were you a few months back when I seemed to be the only damn human being on the board arguing how good Witten was to much distain from others....i think in one of the probably dozens of "underrated" threads.

My entire point was the it was being made out like Witten was clearly better than Olsen, and right now, yes, true. If Olsen has the type of year I expect out of him, it won't be so cut and dry next year. That was my total point.

And don't go and compare him to Vernon ******* Davis. Olsen already did more last year than Davis has in his whole career.

diabsoule
05-16-2009, 08:17 PM
I'm just having a hard time seeing Cutler have any time to throw at all with the East's pass rush. You've got Osi, Tuck, Haynesworth, and Bunkley as your base front four. Plus DeMarcus Ware whose a crazy good blitzer in his own right. And then you can bring Trent Cole in on obvious passing downs? Yeah, that's brutal. Cutler would be knocked silly.

LonghornsLegend
05-16-2009, 08:23 PM
Dude....seriously. I clearly said "not to take anything away from Witten" because I wasn't taking anything away from Witten.

Jesus Christ...seriously? Where were you a few months back when I seemed to be the only damn human being on the board arguing how good Witten was to much distain from others....i think in one of the probably dozens of "underrated" threads.

My entire point was the it was being made out like Witten was clearly better than Olsen, and right now, yes, true. If Olsen has the type of year I expect out of him, it won't be so cut and dry next year. That was my total point.

And don't go and compare him to Vernon ******* Davis. Olsen already did more last year than Davis has in his whole career.


Well Witten is clearly better though, I was just responding to that "Don't bet on it for long" comment as if Olsen had a few good years somehow he would over take Witten...Like I said I love Olsen and have been calling him a breakout candidate since 2008 but for now he's just a rotational TE with great receiving abilities.


Even if he broke out this next year, and Cutler turned him into a more dominant weapon, I don't see any reason why Jason Witten would get worse...Sounded to me like you were saying if Olsen has a good year or two he'll be the best TE in the NFC, that's just pushing it to me even for a guy that loves Olsen's game.

Maybe Next Year Millen2
05-16-2009, 08:28 PM
Thanks for stopping by.

Yeah I read that article. Its some random guy. You can't tell what the coverage was to blame fault for those completions, if the safety should have helped out, if he's playing zone, if the catch was short of a first, how the pass rush was. Too many varialbes. Its faulty stats on percentages and doesn't take into account who was covering which receiver. Plus again Samuel usually on the better receivers but not all the time obviously. Plus Samuel as a Patriot was pretty sick too. Samuel can force a turnover, Browns not the greatest game changer. Agaisnt Cutler, it would be nice to have someone that isn't stone hands because Cutler will give you an opportunity to make a pick. Samuel is definitley in the argument at least over Brown and Webster defintiely.

As for Webster, I'll take guys with track records of more than one year. Newman if healthy and Rogers on that guys list was number 8. Redskins pass rush compared to the Giants changes some things.

Maybe Next Year Millen2
05-16-2009, 08:39 PM
NFC East pass rush would be on Cutler alot. Imagine blocking Osi with Ware blitzing. Yikes.

Giants Oline is 3/5s of the Oline and they've had some trouble with the Vikings in the past. So Eli wouldn't have much time either. Thats why I think McNabb in an Andy Reid offense would be much better for the East. Quicker passes with Cooley as an H-back, Westbrook out of the backfiled, Witten underneath, working the middle. Thats the East best bet. Jam Roy Williams and he's done for the most part.

Mr. Hero
05-16-2009, 08:56 PM
I think the east OL is so much better than the North's that while the east DL will devour the North's OL, the east OL has a chance against the North's DL. Plus the east has a better secondary to cover those superior skill positions the north claims while the north can be attacked through the passing game as winfield isn't the corner he was and those safeties are just good.

diabsoule
05-16-2009, 09:12 PM
NFC East pass rush would be on Cutler alot. Imagine blocking Osi with Ware blitzing. Yikes.

Giants Oline is 3/5s of the Oline and they've had some trouble with the Vikings in the past. So Eli wouldn't have much time either. Thats why I think McNabb in an Andy Reid offense would be much better for the East. Quicker passes with Cooley as an H-back, Westbrook out of the backfiled, Witten underneath, working the middle. Thats the East best bet. Jam Roy Williams and he's done for the most part.

This isn't a 53 man roster. You can consider Cooley and McNabb on the team as back-ups.

Just as you could consider the weapons the North has as their backups as well.

21ST
05-16-2009, 10:19 PM
when did we vote on the nfc east team

diabsoule
05-16-2009, 11:33 PM
when did we vote on the nfc east team

People put together All Pro teams by division a while back.

Maybe Next Year Millen2
05-17-2009, 12:08 AM
This isn't a 53 man roster. You can consider Cooley and McNabb on the team as back-ups.

Just as you could consider the weapons the North has as their backups as well.

True, I guess if I put Cooley in as halfback/fullback, you could put Forte in too as a receiving threat RB. Cooley is a weapon all his own though, very unique like Westbrook but he's technically a tight end so its Witten.

Although this league is really a 2 back league. So you would have to consider Portis(or Barber) and Forte would play alot. And 3 WR sets, I guess would be DeSean Jackson and Berrian or Driver.

Two tight end sets, you get Cooley in there and I guess Shancoe/Donald Lee.

I still would use McNabb at QB over Eli. I know Elis won one Super Bowl and is a franchise QB obviously, but McNabb has had one heck of a career and runs Reids offense very well which is the best offense because it works with less receiver talent and fits Westbrook the best. A little mobility never hurt either when facing that Dline.

LonghornsLegend
05-17-2009, 12:27 AM
I still just think it's pretty ridiculous to have AD and Calvin on the same offense, those guys are difference makers, elite ones at that, and I think that would present problems for even the strongest D's.


Cutler would be able to utilize Calvin to his strengths, and he'd still dominate probably every East corner...The East on offense is just meh, I don't think they would score enough to keep up and the North have a beastly D-line on their hands.


Still looks like this will be a close vote.

Boston
05-17-2009, 12:48 AM
Westbrook would do absolutely nothing against that DL. Nothing about the East's offense really impressed me, but they do have a sick defense, with the lone weak spot being in the LB corps.

Sniper
05-17-2009, 12:49 AM
Westbrook would do absolutely nothing against that DL. Nothing about the East's offense really impressed me, but they do have a sick defense, with the lone weak spot being in the LB corps.

It's a good thing that Westbrook never catches passes. :rolleyes:

Boston
05-17-2009, 12:52 AM
It's a good thing that Westbrook never catches passes. :rolleyes:

Right, I forgot teams don't utilize the ground game anymore...

Mr. Hero
05-17-2009, 12:53 AM
It's a good thing that Westbrook never catches passes. :rolleyes:

Or that the East has an exquisite OL, especially at run blocking, and the best TE in the league.

marshallb
05-17-2009, 10:15 AM
I went with the North. Here's how I see things:
QB: North
RB: North
WR: North
TE: East
OL: East, but not by as much as some people are making it out to be.
DL: I give a slight edge to the North, but this is as close as it can get.
LB: North
DB: East

Sniper
05-17-2009, 10:18 AM
DL: I give a slight edge to the North, but this is as close as it can get.

http://images.icanhascheezburger.com/completestore/2009/3/20/128820761166679449.jpg

Gay Ork Wang
05-17-2009, 10:19 AM
I went with the North. Here's how I see things:
QB: North
RB: North
WR: North
TE: East
OL: East, but not by as much as some people are making it out to be.
DL: I give a slight edge to the North, but this is as close as it can get.
LB: North
DB: East
DL edge should be East

marshallb
05-17-2009, 10:24 AM
http://images.icanhascheezburger.com/completestore/2009/3/20/128820761166679449.jpg

No, I think the ends are a wash, but inside, I'd rather have the Williamses. Haynesworth is the best DT in the league, but IMHO, Kevin Williams is the 2nd best and I'd rather have Pat Williams than Bunkley.

Mr. Hero
05-17-2009, 10:50 AM
you're kidding right?

The Dynasty
05-17-2009, 11:30 AM
When you have the number one rush defense in the NFL for three years straight and its mainly because of Kevin and Pat Williams inside..I think I would take Kevin and Pat.

As for the defensive ends the main stats can say it all. Given Osi wasn't able to play last year because of injury, I took the stats from Osi, Tuck, Allen and Kampman since '05. Tuck and Osi combined for 326 Tackles and 56.5 sacks. Kampman and Allen combined for 546 Tackles and 92 sacks. Even if I projected Osi '08 stats by just taking total averages it wouldnt be even close.

Both these DL's would be amazing to watch but I would like the chance of the North because of being able to stop the run and get the passer.

superman8456
05-17-2009, 12:06 PM
Whoever put East's team together is a joke.

diabsoule
05-17-2009, 12:14 PM
Whoever put East's team together is a joke.

How would you have put it together, Superman?

diabsoule
05-17-2009, 12:15 PM
No, I think the ends are a wash, but inside, I'd rather have the Williamses. Haynesworth is the best DT in the league, but IMHO, Kevin Williams is the 2nd best and I'd rather have Pat Williams than Bunkley.

Really? The DEnds are a wash? Oooooooooooooooooooook.

superman8456
05-17-2009, 12:34 PM
QB- Donovan McNabb
RB- Marion Barber
FB- Leonard Weaver
WR- Roy Williams
WR- Santana Moss
TE- Jason Witten
OT-Chris Samuels
OT- Jason Peters
G-Leonard Davis
G-Shawn Andrews
C-Andre Gurode

DE-Justin tuck
DE-Osi
DT-Broderick Bunkley
DT-Albert Haynesworth
MLB-Stewart Bradley/Lond Fletcher
OLB-Michael Boley
OLB-Demarcus Ware
CB- Terrance Newman
CB-Asante Samuel/Sheldon Brown
S-Quintin Mikell
S-LaRon Landry

And thats trying to be completely unbiased. Normally, I wouldnt put Terrance Newman in there, but both Eagles CB's.

Edit: I put the oline together in a rush and would probably put a few Giants in there.

Sniper
05-17-2009, 12:45 PM
As for the defensive ends the main stats can say it all. Given Osi wasn't able to play last year because of injury, I took the stats from Osi, Tuck, Allen and Kampman since '05. Tuck and Osi combined for 326 Tackles and 56.5 sacks. Kampman and Allen combined for 546 Tackles and 92 sacks. Even if I projected Osi '08 stats by just taking total averages it wouldnt be even close.

Considering Justin Tuck was a part-time player in 2005, played six games in 2006 and wasn't even a starter in 2007, that's really not a good comparison. Same type of situation with Osi. He only played 11 games in 2007.

Maybe Next Year Millen2
05-17-2009, 12:47 PM
Really you shouldn't look at it like DE vs DE.

Its DE vs Tackles. Osi/Tuck would fair better against McKinnie/Pace than Allen/Kampman would fair against Diehl/Jason Peters IMO.

Plus Olsen helping out blocking is just a decent but not great inlinie blocker and Peterson has trouble in pass protection which is why they use Chester Taylor in Minni for passing situations. So Tuck/Osi could more disruptive on Cutler especially with Haynesworth up the middle too and Ware blitzing off the edge. I don't see anyone picking up Ware. And I see the North running a Tampa 2 with only rushing 4 and the East being more aggressive(because they are).

Allen/Kampman/Kevin Williams could be disruptive on Eli too. But Eli has better checkdown options in Westbrook and Witten. Peterson is just decent at catching the ball, could be better than we know but isn't asked to do it that much. Plus are we assuming the QBs know their offenses really well even though this is Cutlers first year in his offense. How much they have command of the offense determines quickness of release. If Cutlers running McCarthys scheme which is close to Shanahnans then he will release it quicker.

etk
05-17-2009, 01:12 PM
I voted for the East, but I'm not happy with either team. The East defense has weird personnel and I'm not sure they'll play well as a unit, but the North is overrated.....weak matchup.

Go_Eagles77
05-17-2009, 01:42 PM
RB- Marion Barber


I'd take Westbrook, Portis, and Jacobs all before Barber.

Boston
05-17-2009, 01:46 PM
I voted for the East, but I'm not happy with either team. The East defense has weird personnel and I'm not sure they'll play well as a unit, but the North is overrated.....weak matchup.

http://img33.imageshack.us/img33/6034/stopwhining.jpg

Mr. Hero
05-17-2009, 01:53 PM
QB- Donovan McNabb
RB- Marion Barber
FB- Leonard Weaver
WR- Roy Williams
WR- Santana Moss
TE- Jason Witten
OT-Chris Samuels
OT- Jason Peters
G-Leonard Davis
G-Shawn Andrews
C-Andre Gurode

DE-Justin tuck
DE-Osi
DT-Broderick Bunkley
DT-Albert Haynesworth
MLB-Stewart Bradley/Lond Fletcher
OLB-Michael Boley
OLB-Demarcus Ware
CB- Terrance Newman
CB-Asante Samuel/Sheldon Brown
S-Quintin Mikell
S-LaRon Landry

And thats trying to be completely unbiased. Normally, I wouldnt put Terrance Newman in there, but both Eagles CB's.

Edit: I put the oline together in a rush and would probably put a few Giants in there.

lulz, are you a dallas fan? Barber over Westbrook, Portis or even Jacobs? Terrance Newman and Asante Samuel over Webster and Brown? And that OL? Shawn Andrews is going to play RT next season so take Samuels and has over the hill ass off the list move Andrews to RT and put the league's best guard, Chris Snee, in that lineup and you at least have a case.

GB12
05-17-2009, 01:57 PM
I voted for the East, but I'm not happy with either team. The East defense has weird personnel and I'm not sure they'll play well as a unit, but the North is overrated.....weak matchup.
So overrated that they beat your division by 51 votes.

Gay Ork Wang
05-17-2009, 01:58 PM
So overrated that they beat your division by 51 votes.
BUT THEY ARE ALL OVER .500!!!!!

diabsoule
05-17-2009, 02:03 PM
The NFC North will be marching into the Championship Round!

During the Championship Round there will be 10 Notable Reserves listed for each team.

Go_Eagles77
05-17-2009, 02:47 PM
Amazing that a division with the lions in it can have such a good looking All-Pro team. Haha.

Crickett
05-17-2009, 02:55 PM
OT-Chris Samuels
OT- Jason Peters
G-Leonard Davis
G-Shawn Andrews
C-Andre Gurode


Edit: I put the oline together in a rush and would probably put a few Giants in there.

Yes. You should have. But you didn't.

RB- Marion Barber

I like you think diabsoule did a piss poor job of making the NFC East and putting lesser players on the team is why the NFC East is losing the vote. That being said, putting no Giants on the offensive line, and the NFC East running back with the least rushing yards this past year means only one thing.


YOU HAVE FAILED

Maybe Next Year Millen2
05-17-2009, 02:59 PM
Amazing that a division with the lions in it can have such a good looking All-Pro team. Haha.

And Calvin makes a huge impact because he's a freak paired with Peterson. Jennings and Berrian I don't think people would be singing the same tune without Calvin as a Lion plus Calvin would be a Buc so they don't get past the South.

At least the Lions have something to build around so there is a silver lining. Stafford and Pettigrew work out, 2-3 years down the line at least the offense will be very fun to watch. Defense I'll settle for average instead of record setting bad.

I think each team brings something big in one area. Bears LB,Packers secondary,Vikings Dline,Lions/Vikings the freak of natures, and how about the Bears bringing the QB. Never thought you'd say Bears and good QB in the same sentence.

someone447
05-17-2009, 03:02 PM
And Calvin makes a huge impact because he's a freak paired with Peterson. Jennings and Berrian I don't think people would be singing the same tune without Calvin as a Lion plus Calvin would be a Buc so they don't get past the South.

At least the Lions have something to build around so there is a silver lining. Stafford and Pettigrew work out, 2-3 years down the line at least the offense will be very fun to watch. Defense I'll settle for average instead of record setting bad.

I think each team brings something big in one area. Bears LB,Packers secondary,Vikings Dline,Lions/Vikings the freak of natures, and how about the Bears bringing the QB. Never thought you'd say Bears and good QB in the same sentence.

After next year I'm hoping Rodgers will be the QB for the North. Then all will be right with the North, the Packers will be back to having the best QB in the division, just like they have since 1992.

superman8456
05-17-2009, 04:16 PM
Yes. You should have. But you didn't.



I like you think diabsoule did a piss poor job of making the NFC East and putting lesser players on the team is why the NFC East is losing the vote. That being said, putting no Giants on the offensive line, and the NFC East running back with the least rushing yards this past year means only one thing.



Eli Manning at QB is a joke and single handedly ruined it. There was also a lot of NYG on the original oline, some of which didnt deserve to be there. If anything Chris Snee and Shaun O'Hara, but not David Diehl. Shawn Andrews is trying out RT, so its not a definite he will play to the level he did at guard.

I put Marion Barber on there because I didnt want to seem to biased being an Eagles fan. Looking back, I would have put Clinton Portis. He can catch unlike Jacobs, and can block unlike Westbrook. Brandon Jacobs would probably be last on my list though.

Another reason I put Terrance Newman in there is to not seem so biased. But like I said in the original post, I would rather have Asante Samuel, Corey Webster, or Sheldon Brown. I think Corey Webster great and snubbed from Probowl

Crickett
05-17-2009, 04:27 PM
Eli Manning at QB is a joke and single handedly ruined it.

G-aKfTK2LiM

No, it doesn't.

There was also a lot of NYG on the original oline, some of which didnt deserve to be there. If anything Chris Snee and Shaun O'Hara, but not David Diehl.

Yes Chris Snee and yes Shaun O'Hara. And yes, David Diehl too. At least ahead of Jason Peters and his 11 and a half sacks.


I put Marion Barber on there because I didnt want to seem to biased being an Eagles fan.

You complained about the running back selection and picked one who did worse this past year. Failure.

Brothgar
05-17-2009, 04:30 PM
If anyone would have told me that the NFC North would have made it past round 1 let alone possibly win it all I would have laughed in your face. Its strange when we think of the NFC North we think of the bottom feeders of the NFL. The NFC East (aka NFC Beast) is considered the strongest in the NFL.

Mr. Hero
05-17-2009, 04:35 PM
Eli Manning at QB is a joke and single handedly ruined it. There was also a lot of NYG on the original oline, some of which didnt deserve to be there. If anything Chris Snee and Shaun O'Hara, but not David Diehl. Shawn Andrews is trying out RT, so its not a definite he will play to the level he did at guard.

I put Marion Barber on there because I didnt want to seem to biased being an Eagles fan. Looking back, I would have put Clinton Portis. He can catch unlike Jacobs, and can block unlike Westbrook. Brandon Jacobs would probably be last on my list though.

Another reason I put Terrance Newman in there is to not seem so biased. But like I said in the original post, I would rather have Asante Samuel, Corey Webster, or Sheldon Brown. I think Corey Webster great and snubbed from Probowl

Strange that Eli's the easily the most clutch QB in the east and he's the reason the NFC East sucks. I guess having one of the highest totals for 4th quarter comeback wins since he was drafted does that for a guy, I mean what good QB needs to make late game comebacks or perform well with the game on the line? But I see the otherside's point, HE THROWS INTERZEPTIONZZ!!1!!1!!

Westbrook can block and ranking Barber over Jacobs is foolish aswell. It's easily Westbrook, Portis, Jacobs and then Barber (since he has yet to show he can actually be a lead back) in the east.

As for Newman there's a difference between trying not to seem biased and picking the inferior player. If Tnew could stay healthy for 16 games he'd definitely be on par with Shelden Brown and Corey Webster, but when was the last time that happened?

superman8456
05-17-2009, 04:44 PM
Crickett, you're not very bright, are you? You think one play makes up for the hundreds of bad ones I've seen him make.

I know Jason Peters let up 11 1/2 sacks, but I also know he went to the ProBowl to be a LT in the AFC. AFC has a lot better competition at LT if you noticed. Matt Light, Ryan Clady, Jake, Long, Joe Thomas, and Michael Roos to name a few. What does this mean? He is a pretty good LT, and coaches/players noticed. Here is a breakdown of every sack he "let up": http://boards.buffalobills.com/showthread.php?t=127203

I didnt complain about the RB selection, I just changed it to bring a little diversity to the All NFCE team. Unlike the original which had Giants in almost all the slots. Clear bias imo

Brothgar
05-17-2009, 05:03 PM
Strange that Eli's the easily the most clutch QB in the east and he's the reason the NFC East sucks.

Most clutch does not mean best.


I guess having one of the highest totals for 4th quarter comeback wins since he was drafted does that for a guy, I mean what good QB needs to make late game comebacks or perform well with the game on the line? But I see the otherside's point, HE THROWS INTERZEPTIONZZ!!1!!1!!

Teams make comebacks not QBs. I find if funny how the media, the statisticians, and the fans forget that. Also in order to have 4th quarter comebacks there is one thing you really need. And that is to be behind after 3 quarters.





As for Newman there's a difference between trying not to seem biased and picking the inferior player. If Tnew could stay healthy for 16 games he'd definitely be on par with Shelden Brown and Corey Webster, but when was the last time that happened?

Personally I'm not a huge fan of Corey Webster to begin with I would have likely taken both Samuel and T-New over Webster but that's just me I 'm not killing anyone for the choice.



These words are coming from THE biggest Donny Mc hater on the board and maybe on the planet. Eli is not better than McNabb honestly I don't love any of them I would be tempted to put John Kitna as the best QB in that division. Eli throws the ball too high Wickett used the David Tyree catch as a reason for Eli being up there. Tyree needed a rocket up his ass to catch that ball half a second late or a little less of a jump and that ball is going the other way. Remember the title of the clip is David Tyree's amazing catch not Eli Manning's amazing throw. Granted for that one playoff run the year before last he looked like the best QB in the league. But (because they are in the division) I get to watch a ton of Giants games each season. Eli isn't that impressive.

Sniper
05-17-2009, 06:00 PM
http://boards.buffalobills.com/showthread.php?t=127203

Good link.

Unlike the original which had Giants in almost all the slots. Clear bias imo

The Giants won the division by 2.5 games, so there's probably a reason why the NFC East's roster would have so many Giants.

BuckNaked
05-17-2009, 06:22 PM
Who the **** put Naufahu Tahi on the team?

21ST
05-17-2009, 06:56 PM
Whoever put East's team together is a joke.

very true indeed

Thumper
05-17-2009, 07:36 PM
very true indeed

Yes.

QB has to be McNabb
RB should be Portis
FB should be Leonard Weaver
LT should be Samuels
C should be Andre Gurode
RG should be Shawn Andrews
WLB should be Rocky McIntosh

I don't think the NFC East team looks good on paper because they are strongest in the trenches (Least flashy). But if you think about what will be happening, the NFC East's run game would own everyone with a combination of Portis, Westbrook, Jacobs, Barber and Jones.

The receivers are weak but that is because the teams just did a clean sweep and got younger guys. When Devin Thomas, Malcolm Kelly, DeSean Jackson, Jeremy Maclin, Hakeem Nicks, Mario Manningham and Ramses Barden all develop the NFC East offense will be deadly. Plus with Roy Williams getting a year to learn the system and be the #1 target, he should be good.

The pass rush is great with Haynesworth, Ratliff and Bunkley inside and with Cole, Carter, Osi, Tuck and Kiwi on the outside.

Plus add in all the depth at corner in Asante Samuel, T-Newman, Carlos Rogers and DeAngelo Hall and the corners are shut down.

The safties are good as well with Laron Landry being one of the NFL's best safeties and Mikell being an all-pro with Chris Horton, Ken Hamlin and Kenny Phillips all as back-ups this team has the most depth of any of these all-division teams. The NFC East isn't flashy it is a gritty and hardnosed division where games are won and lost in the trenches and the team should reflect that.

Mr. Hero
05-18-2009, 10:10 AM
Crickett, you're not very bright, are you? You think one play makes up for the hundreds of bad ones I've seen him make.

I know Jason Peters let up 11 1/2 sacks, but I also know he went to the ProBowl to be a LT in the AFC. AFC has a lot better competition at LT if you noticed. Matt Light, Ryan Clady, Jake, Long, Joe Thomas, and Michael Roos to name a few. What does this mean? He is a pretty good LT, and coaches/players noticed. Here is a breakdown of every sack he "let up": http://boards.buffalobills.com/showthread.php?t=127203

I didnt complain about the RB selection, I just changed it to bring a little diversity to the All NFCE team. Unlike the original which had Giants in almost all the slots. Clear bias imo

I don't think Eli's made hundreds of bad plays in the NFL, he used to force things a lot but that stopped when we went on our SB run, last year you didn't see him ever making simply boneheaded decisions with the ball and he has regularly lead us for late game scores when we've needed them.

If you think that making the probowl somehow negates the fact that Peters was atrocious last season you're extremely naive. I lived in buffalo until two weeks ago and I got to see every glorious whiff, and Jason just wasn't a good tackle last season. Yes he has talent, yes before last season he was an elite tackle and yes he can easily bounce back but this is an all-pro team, and last year Jason Peters didn't deserve to make any all-pro team, not even if we were to consider buffalo a part of the canadian football league.

What giants made the team that don't deserve it? If you want to change eli for donovan that's fine, but don't act like Snee or O'Hara aren't more than worthy of a spot. And considering how bad all of the east's LTs were last year with Flozell being done, Jason Peters deciding he wanted to know what getting dominated all year was like and Samuel having lost a step, so to speak, due to his injuries and age. Diehl wasn't an exceptional pass blocker and as an LT that's often what we look for first, but given the weak competition, the progress DD made in that area and his tremendous run blocking and I don't think it's absurd to put him on such a list. I think everyone else is pretty clear why they deserved their spots, While Weaver and Sellers are good strong FBs who can run the ball and are versatile Hedgecock's a very good blocker who's certainly no worse than either one. If you think there's some pro-Giants bias then sure take him off, but at least recognize that the difference in performance is miniscule enough were you're just picking on personal preference. And I don't think any explanation is needed for the giants defenders on the list.

These words are coming from THE biggest Donny Mc hater on the board and maybe on the planet. Eli is not better than McNabb honestly I don't love any of them I would be tempted to put John Kitna as the best QB in that division. Eli throws the ball too high Wickett used the David Tyree catch as a reason for Eli being up there. Tyree needed a rocket up his ass to catch that ball half a second late or a little less of a jump and that ball is going the other way. Remember the title of the clip is David Tyree's amazing catch not Eli Manning's amazing throw. Granted for that one playoff run the year before last he looked like the best QB in the league. But (because they are in the division) I get to watch a ton of Giants games each season. Eli isn't that impressive.

*shrug* I agree and disagree, sure most clutch doesn't mean best but that was in response to the comment that eli somehow would be the down fall of this team if it were ever assembled.

And again I agree that team's make comebacks and without the receivers to catch teh ball or the D to make stops or the OL to block, etc. nothing would happen but Eli runs the offense in the clutch and we run so much more smoothly than we do with Killdrive making the calls, and eli doesn't do it all himself he does orchestrate everything in a remarkable way. His drives are his, they're not just the teams they are distinctly Eli because of how he runs us in those situations.

I hear the skepticism on Webster but he's been truly exceptional since he became a starter again in time for our superbowl run. His stats, I know CB stats are stupid, but his stats aren't an accident or simply the result of our pass rush, largely because our pass rush was just good this year with kiwi playing at 240 and osi injured. Based solely on last season I can't rank anyone in the east outside of Shelden Brown, who was just as remarkable last season, above him, especially not only a solid cover corner in Samuel or an injury prone guy like Newman.

I don't really mind people ranking Donovan over Eli, now if the giants traded Eli for Donovan I'd be furious, but for this I don't really care, I was just debating the notion that Eli somehow "ruins" this team. Which is preposterous, he may not be the most impressive QB, but he's stopped forcing things and has become a very a good QB who's just money when it matters most.

superman8456
05-18-2009, 06:20 PM
Madison Hedgecock is DEFINITELY worse than Sellers and Weaver. Weaver and Sellers can do more than just block, Hedgecock has proven little ability to do that. Not to mention that Sellers and Weaver are both similar blockers to Hedgecock as well (I would say Hedgecock is the best out of all them at blocking, but last in receiving and running).

You obviously didnt look at the link I gave on Jason Peters. Every single sack he "let up" was broken down. If you watched, you would see most of the sacks are given up early in the season (right after his holdout), some were not his fault (for example a guy takes a hard step to the outside so he goes with him, then the defender goes inside and Peters expects help from Dockery that he never gets), and others were just sheer hustle plays, where the defender never gave up and the QB held the ball for too long ending up with an eventual sack.

Statistically Webster was a top 5 CB last season, probably top 3. But so was Sheldon Brown. Terrance Newman has been a top 15 CB consistently.

Snee and O'Hara have actual arguements to be on the team, and I would probably give O'Hara the C spot because Gurode has some trouble snapping shotgun. But Snee has a TON of competition at G. If I were to include Snee, I would take out Shawn Andrews because of his injury last season, not because of performance.

jsagan77
05-18-2009, 10:44 PM
I'll play

QB- Donovan McNabb
RB- Clinton Portis
FB- Mike Sellars
WR- Roy Williams
WR- Santana Moss
WR- DeSean Jackson
TE- Jason Witten
OT-Chris Samuels
G- Chris Snee
C-Andre Gurode
G-Shawn Andrews
OT- David Diehl

3-4

DE-Justin Tuck
NT-Albert Haynesworth
DE- Broderick Bunkley
OLB- Osi
MLB-Lond Fletcher
MLB-Antonio Pierce
OLB-Demarcus Ware
CB- Sheldon Brown
CB- Asante Samuel
NB- Carlos Rogers
S-Chris Horton
S-LaRon Landry

Sniper
05-18-2009, 10:46 PM
S-Chris Horton


http://blogs.mysanantonio.com/weblogs/atlarge/epic_fail.jpg

jsagan77
05-18-2009, 10:53 PM
http://blogs.mysanantonio.com/weblogs/atlarge/epic_fail.jpg

Epic fail? The SS position is probably the most interchangeable piece of this puzzle. Mikell was good, but I think Horton was every bit as good, and yes I watched both play this year.

Sniper
05-18-2009, 10:56 PM
Horton was every bit as good

Except when he wasn't. Mikell had 17 more tackles, 2 more forced fumbles, 1 more sack and four more passes defended. Mikell was so good that he was named defensive MVP of a defense that finished third in total defense and fourth in scoring defense. Mikell's play is what allowed Brian Dawkins to play so close to the LOS so much.

jsagan77
05-18-2009, 11:01 PM
Except when he wasn't. Mikell had 17 more tackles, 2 more forced fumbles, 1 more sack and four more passes defended. Mikell was so good that he was named defensive MVP of a defense that finished third in total defense and fourth in scoring defense. Mikell's play is what allowed Brian Dawkins to play so close to the LOS so much.

Dude, Horton didn't start until what week 5 and missed a couple games due to injury. Good for Mikell for putting up those stats but he barely outplayed Horton after Horton had a late start and missed two games. I'm not taking anything away from Mikell but Horton was better.

Sniper
05-18-2009, 11:05 PM
We have different definitions of the word "better", I guess.

Crickett
05-18-2009, 11:16 PM
Crickett, you're not very bright, are you? You think one play makes up for the hundreds of bad ones I've seen him make.

If Ryan Leaf returned to the San Diego Chargers and somehow, someway, lead them on a game winning drive in the Superbowl, yes, that would make up for everything the biggest bust in NFL history has ever done. It really would. Tremendous success makes people forget failure. Don't believe me? Just ask Phil Simms.

Secondly.

Season Team Passing Rushing Fumbles
G GS Comp Att Pct Yds Avg TD Int Sck SckY Rate Att Yds Avg TD FUM Lost
2008 New York Giants 16 16 289 479 60.3 3,238 6.8 21 10 27 174 86.4 20 10 0.5 1 5 2

Whats so bad about this season?


I know Jason Peters let up 11 1/2 sacks, but I also know he went to the ProBowl to be a LT in the AFC. AFC has a lot better competition at LT if you noticed. Matt Light, Ryan Clady, Jake, Long, Joe Thomas, and Michael Roos to name a few.

1. Ryan Clady (Broncos) 0.5 sacks allowed (16 starts)
2. Michael Roos (Titans) 1.0 sacks allowed (16 starts)
5. Jake Long (Dolphins) 2.5 sacks allowed (16 starts)
17. Joe Thomas (Browns) 4.5 sacks allowed (16 starts) *PRO-BOWL*
23. Matt Light (Pats) 7.5 sacks allowed (16 starts)
31. Jason Peters (Bills) 11.5 sacks allowed (13 starts)

Do you notice the slight difference between the first four out of the six people you listed there and Jason Peters?


I didnt complain about the RB selection, I just changed it to bring a little diversity to the All NFCE team. Unlike the original which had Giants in almost all the slots. Clear bias imo

You're right. You didn't complain about the RB selection. My mistake. However, you did put the running back with the least yards out of the four starting running backs in the NFC East. So you fail.

scottyboy
05-18-2009, 11:18 PM
Want me to be awesome and give my team? well i dont care what you think and will anyway:

QB: Eli (shoot me I'm a homer, but it's hardly a stretch)
RB: Westbrook. under-rated and shits on the Giants. Imagine if he had an actual playcaller? wowzers
FB: Hedgecock. he's a Giant with epic win name.
WR: Roy Williams
WR: Santana Moss
WR: Steve Smith
WR: Desean Jackson
--damn, that WR corp flows. The big #1 with Roy, speedy compliment in Moss, slot guy/clutch 3rd down guy in Smith, and deep threat in DJax. I win!
TE: Witten. I hate him, but had to put him here.
LT: Samuels
LG: Diehl- move him inside, epic interior line win. Throw Jacobs and Portis in with up the gut carries and I just won the Super Bowl. good day
C: O'Hara
RG: Snee
RT: I guess Andrews...idk. slim pickin's here

DEFENSE
DE: Osi
DT: Fat Al
DT: Bunkley/Robbins/Canty. It doesn't matter. I'm tired
DE: Tuck
OLB: Ware
MLB: Fletcher
OLB: Boley
CB: T-New
CB: Webster
S: Kenny Phillips
S: Laron Landry
K: Folk
P: Feagles

Sniper
05-18-2009, 11:20 PM
CB: T-New
S: Kenny Phillips


Your secondary sucks.

scottyboy
05-18-2009, 11:22 PM
Your secondary sucks.

Kenny Phillips is epic win. Yea, probably should be Samuel, but I put enough smelly eagles on there!

go into nickel and dime sets and that defense rapes. Fat Al shuts down the run on 1st and maybe 2. Nickel sets of Webster-Samuel-TNew with rushers of Osi, Tuck, Fat Al and Ware coming from somewhere? win.

Sniper
05-18-2009, 11:25 PM
Kenny Phillips is epic win. Yea, probably should be Samuel, but I put enough smelly eagles on there!

go into nickel and dime sets and that defense rapes. Fat Al shuts down the run on 1st and maybe 2. Nickel sets of Webster-Samuel-TNew with rushers of Osi, Tuck, Fat Al and Ware coming from somewhere? win.

Samuel is a CB, not a SS. Mikell should be the SS.

Dime sets would probably best. You could make use of the great DB depth on the team.

CB- Asante Samuel
NB- Sheldon Brown (better suited for the nickel than Samuel)
FS- LaRon Landry
SS- Quintin Mikell
DB- Carlos Rogers
CB- Corey Webster

I dare you to pass on that lineup.

scottyboy
05-18-2009, 11:30 PM
Samuel is a CB, not a SS. Mikell should be the SS.

Dime sets would probably best. You could make use of the great DB depth on the team.

CB- Asante Samuel
NB- Sheldon Brown (better suited for the nickel than Samuel)
FS- LaRon Landry
SS- Quintin Mikell
DB- Carlos Rogers
CB- Corey Webster

I dare you to pass on that lineup.

i know. i didn't clarify. Kenny Phillips is epic win.

I should've put Samuel for T-New.

Kenny>>>>>>Mikell. why? because of da U factor.

oh and the pass rush would be Osi-Tuck-Fat Al-Ware. epic win.

Sniper
05-18-2009, 11:32 PM
I should've put Samuel for T-New.

Samuel's the second-best corner on his own team.

Mr. Hero
05-19-2009, 03:05 AM
Madison Hedgecock is DEFINITELY worse than Sellers and Weaver. Weaver and Sellers can do more than just block, Hedgecock has proven little ability to do that. Not to mention that Sellers and Weaver are both similar blockers to Hedgecock as well (I would say Hedgecock is the best out of all them at blocking, but last in receiving and running).

You obviously didnt look at the link I gave on Jason Peters. Every single sack he "let up" was broken down. If you watched, you would see most of the sacks are given up early in the season (right after his holdout), some were not his fault (for example a guy takes a hard step to the outside so he goes with him, then the defender goes inside and Peters expects help from Dockery that he never gets), and others were just sheer hustle plays, where the defender never gave up and the QB held the ball for too long ending up with an eventual sack.

Statistically Webster was a top 5 CB last season, probably top 3. But so was Sheldon Brown. Terrance Newman has been a top 15 CB consistently.

Snee and O'Hara have actual arguements to be on the team, and I would probably give O'Hara the C spot because Gurode has some trouble snapping shotgun. But Snee has a TON of competition at G. If I were to include Snee, I would take out Shawn Andrews because of his injury last season, not because of performance.

I'll argue that Hedgecock is a notably better blocker, Sellers is a very good blocker and I know Weaver's not inept himself but he's a cut above the rest in the east and when I think Fullback I think lead blocker flying into the hole and knocking linebackers the **** out of the way. He isn't a very good receiver but none of these full backs are good enough to warrant being on the field over Cooley on passing downs so that factor isn't that significant.

I read you're link but what you fail to comprehend is that Peters let a lot of pass rushers get by that didn't collect sacks but only because of Trent's athleticism and a quick passing game. And even in the running game he let defenders through way more than an elite tackle should ever let happen. Thus I can't see how you can put this guy on some sort of all-pro team, he could very well be the best LT this coming season in the east, but last season he was terrible.

I work around the snee, davis, andrews dilemma by taking a page out of the iggles book and moving Shawn out to RT and having Snee and Davis man the guard spots.

I'll play

QB- Donovan McNabb
RB- Clinton Portis
FB- Mike Sellars
WR- Roy Williams
WR- Santana Moss
WR- DeSean Jackson
TE- Jason Witten
OT-Chris Samuels
G- Chris Snee
C-Andre Gurode
G-Shawn Andrews
OT- David Diehl

3-4

DE-Justin Tuck
NT-Albert Haynesworth
DE- Broderick Bunkley
OLB- Osi
MLB-Lond Fletcher
MLB-Antonio Pierce
OLB-Demarcus Ware
CB- Sheldon Brown
CB- Asante Samuel
NB- Carlos Rogers
S-Chris Horton
S-LaRon Landry

AP doesn't deserve to be on this list over Stewart or Fletcher, hell he wasn't that much better than Bradie James if I'm being brutally honest.

Samuel over Webster? I know Samuel makes more plays on the ball but webster was a magnificent cover corner, with his better size he could handle the bigger matchups that Sheldon can't and you've got a pair of near shut down corners. I think I'd have Samuel in there as the third corner because he is a different type of corner and is very good at what he does, but he's not a very good cover corner.

jsagan77
05-19-2009, 05:32 AM
We have different definitions of the word "better", I guess.

Well do you think Horton would have had better stats than Mikell had he started the entire season?

Sniper
05-19-2009, 08:45 AM
Well do you think Horton would have had better stats than Mikell had he started the entire season?

Maybe, but he also didn't have the same type of supporting cast around him and played a different role. Mikell was basically the FS last year to allow Dawkins to roam while Horton got to be more of a traditional SS. Neither choice is terrible, I guess. I just feel like Mikell is absurdly underrated.

Maybe Next Year Millen2
05-19-2009, 12:01 PM
http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/football/giants/2008/07/27/2008-07-27_playoff_savior_corey_webster_starts_agai.html

Webster sucked ass until very late 2007 when he got back into the lineup due to Madisons injury. 2005,2006,most of 2007 on the scout team Webster was a disappointment. Then he did very well in 2008. Thats all I was saying ScottyD and its the truth about Webster that he struggled for majority of 3 years so don't tell me I don't know anything about Webster just because I'm not a Giants fan. One studly year for Webster whereas Samuel was doing very well in New England at that time and still had a more than solid year in Philly this year. The time on the pine did Webster some good though as he got to learn behind Madison and the Giants pass rush being awesome helps some too. Hope he keeps it up in 2009.

Gay Ork Wang
05-19-2009, 12:05 PM
i believe it had to do with the system he was in. I remember he sucked in zone coverage

Maybe Next Year Millen2
05-19-2009, 12:17 PM
i believe it had to do with the system he was in. I remember he sucked in zone coverage

Well suck is suck. Zone should be easier than man especially with that pass rush. Adding Spags helped Webster for sure plus the awesome pass rush. But Spags didn't trust him after he got burnt early in 2007. However, due to injuries he got another chance which is the beauty of the NFL. Webster had a great 2008 but his first 3 years, everyone takes Samuel. Which is a reason I took him because I trust him more. Webster grew up for sure and had confidence from the playoffs in 2007. Hope for the Giants sake he keeps it up in 2009. Spags is gone but Osi is back.

Mr. Hero
05-19-2009, 01:14 PM
http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/football/giants/2008/07/27/2008-07-27_playoff_savior_corey_webster_starts_agai.html

Webster sucked ass until very late 2007 when he got back into the lineup due to Madisons injury. 2005,2006,most of 2007 on the scout team Webster was a disappointment. Then he did very well in 2008. Thats all I was saying ScottyD and its the truth about Webster that he struggled for majority of 3 years so don't tell me I don't know anything about Webster just because I'm not a Giants fan. One studly year for Webster whereas Samuel was doing very well in New England at that time and still had a more than solid year in Philly this year. The time on the pine did Webster some good though as he got to learn behind Madison and the Giants pass rush being awesome helps some too. Hope he keeps it up in 2009.

Well first of all Tim Lewis was our DC and he's easily the worst DC I've ever seen, he left bump n run man corners like Webster 10 yards off the line and basically ran a prevent defense, add to that a lot of injuries at DE horrible linebackers and no safeties and our defense was pretty damn poor before two years ago. Once we went to a man scheme and Webster got comfortable again he's become an elite corner. I can see why someone who doesn't watch him regularly would be skeptical about these past season and a quarter being a fluke but if you watch him he's been a completely different corner. I mean I was one of his biggest bashers on this site when Lewis was still ruining...I mean running things.

awfullyquiet
05-19-2009, 01:58 PM
really, it's nfcn by a bit imo.

the DLine is a subject of extreme homerism imo on the part of the east.

scottyboy
05-19-2009, 02:18 PM
http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/football/giants/2008/07/27/2008-07-27_playoff_savior_corey_webster_starts_agai.html

Webster sucked ass until very late 2007 when he got back into the lineup due to Madisons injury. 2005,2006,most of 2007 on the scout team Webster was a disappointment. Then he did very well in 2008. Thats all I was saying ScottyD and its the truth about Webster that he struggled for majority of 3 years so don't tell me I don't know anything about Webster just because I'm not a Giants fan. One studly year for Webster whereas Samuel was doing very well in New England at that time and still had a more than solid year in Philly this year. The time on the pine did Webster some good though as he got to learn behind Madison and the Giants pass rush being awesome helps some too. Hope he keeps it up in 2009.

It's a shame you don't have the slightest clue about what you're talking about. Webster is a man corner, pure man. Tim Lewis *cringes* ****** him up horribly with the worst schemes ever. Webster was OUTSTANDING once Lewis left and has been over the past 2 years, especially last year. GTFO with this nonsense.

BaLLiN
05-19-2009, 02:43 PM
really, it's nfcn by a bit imo.

the DLine is a subject of extreme homerism imo on the part of the east.

if we do it cant be by much, we have alot of pro bowlers and premiere guys.

DE- Justin Tuck
(Demarcus Ware)
Osi Umenyiora
Trent Cole
Mathias Kiwanuka
Victor Abimiri who has improved
Brian Orakpo who could be a beast next to big al
Marcus Spears

DT- Albert Haynesworth
Broderick Bunkley
Jay Ratliff
Mike Patterson
Fred Robbins
Chris Canty

Even older guys like Cornelius Griffin and Andre Carter were pretty good in their prime, and still are decent starters.

Maybe Next Year Millen2
05-19-2009, 02:51 PM
There is no way it is entirely the defensive coordinators fault. He played poorly early 2007(so you are wrong with outstanding once Lewis left) and was put on the scout team by Spags and inactive in November in 2007. Spags didn't trust him until he was forced to play him due to injury. Then Webster suprised him and all of us. And of course great pass rush makes corners look better than they really are.

And now what with Spags gone. Can we expect Webster to regress some based on the DC determining his playing ability?

BaLLiN
05-19-2009, 04:16 PM
There is no way it is entirely the defensive coordinators fault. He played poorly early 2007(so you are wrong with outstanding once Lewis left) and was put on the scout team by Spags and inactive in November in 2007. Spags didn't trust him until he was forced to play him due to injury. Then Webster suprised him and all of us. And of course great pass rush makes corners look better than they really are.

And now what with Spags gone. Can we expect Webster to regress some based on the DC determining his playing ability?

okay, you are borderline speaking out of your ass now just to try to prove a point.

1. The entire defense played bad, and although he started we were rotating so he didnt see a huge amount of playing time. He had to adapt himself to a different style of play. Press coverage is not something easy to transition to because if you wiff on the press your screwed, thats why CONFIDENCE in what you are doing takes time, and confidence has always been an issue with him.

2. He was not put on scout team, he was on the depth chart just inactive, theres a difference.

3. Thank you for telling us exactly what spags was thinking, because its a 100% truth? I dont think that was all the reason, he had an adjustment to make that Sam Madison, RW, and Ross especially didnt have. Dockery did but he played more inside which you are used to pressing and hands on with underneath routes.

4. Or is it that horrible passrush makes good corners look bad? and good passrush just keeps corners from having to cover for way too long, because thats the truth.

Bottom line, Corey has gotten alot better and he played very well last year. He wasnt picked on as much as Ross was (Ross was injured) but he did cover guys like TO and Larry Fitz (i could list others) and did a good job in man to man just trying to keep the ball out of their hands.

Maybe Next Year Millen2
05-19-2009, 04:46 PM
okay, you are borderline speaking out of your ass now just to try to prove a point.

1. The entire defense played bad, and although he started we were rotating so he didnt see a huge amount of playing time. He had to adapt himself to a different style of play. Press coverage is not something easy to transition to because if you wiff on the press your screwed, thats why CONFIDENCE in what you are doing takes time, and confidence has always been an issue with him.

The entire defense played bad, including Webster. Why does Webster get a pass, he doesn't. Good corners can overcome lack of pass rush at times, look at Nnamdi and Champ. Then Webster was benched. He learned from it and got better. The man played bad in 2005,2006 and 2007 for most of the year. Then he got better. I never said he didn't get better.

2. He was not put on scout team, he was on the depth chart just inactive, theres a difference.

That articles says he was on the scout team. Either way he was the 5th or 6th corner from late Septebmer to early December until injuries hit. Its just semantics but either way he was way down the depth chart wherease Samuel,Newman and Rogers were all playing.

3. Thank you for telling us exactly what spags was thinking, because its a 100% truth? I dont think that was all the reason, he had an adjustment to make that Sam Madison, RW, and Ross especially didnt have. Dockery did but he played more inside which you are used to pressing and hands on with underneath routes.

I don't have to know exactly what he's thinking to know somebody who is benched and 5th/6th on the depth chart doesn't instill confidence in a coach. Then because of injury, not him winning over Spags in practice did he get back in the lineup. I never said it was 100% but its pretty obvious.

4. Or is it that horrible passrush makes good corners look bad? and good passrush just keeps corners from having to cover for way too long, because thats the truth.

Its both. Horrible pass rush makes bad corners look bad and sometimes good corners look bad. But good corners can overcome a bad pass rush, Webster never did. Good pass rush helps good corners even more and makes bad corners look better than they are. So its really to be determined with Webster. I'd like to see more than one season is what it boils down too.

Bottom line, Corey has gotten alot better and he played very well last year. He wasnt picked on as much as Ross was (Ross was injured) but he did cover guys like TO and Larry Fitz (i could list others) and did a good job in man to man just trying to keep the ball out of their hands.

I never said Webster didn't have a good 2008. I said he struggled in 2005-2007 and then people made excuses for him to make him seem better than he is with only one year of great play. Ahhh its the DC, ahhh its everyone else, blah blah blah. Webster does it again in 2009 then you got a better argument. His passrush should be there but his DC won't. We'll see what happens.

Mr. Hero
05-19-2009, 05:25 PM
WTF are talking about? All of us giants fans thought he was garbage until he came back in 2007 and since then he's been an elite corner, only clearly behind Aso.

Maybe Next Year Millen2
05-19-2009, 05:40 PM
WTF are talking about? All of us giants fans thought he was garbage until he came back in 2007 and since then he's been an elite corner, only clearly behind Aso.

Exactly, he was garbage until very late 2007 but some people are making excuses for him to make him seem better than he is. You can't be an elite corner after only one year of great play. 2 more years of playing like he did in 2008 against number 1 receivers, then yes I'll call him elite. But that is to be determined.

And no wonder people picked on Ross if he was hurt. Of course, they'll pick on the injured corner playing instead of Webster. Webster did a good job in 2008, but picking on injured Ross and the Giants pass rush the way it is as very strong, doesn't make Webster an elite corner.

Samuel has been doing solid to great for years. Newman has been very strong when healthy but the health is a big IF. We'll see how 2009 turns out. As I said he has a good chance with that pass rush to be elite(or remained masked), but we'll give him the benefit of the doubt. New DC in Giant land, Ross is healthy, LBs are better, there is no excuses for Webster and its set up nicely for him to succeed.

Mr. Hero
05-19-2009, 06:05 PM
Exactly, he was garbage until very late 2007 but some people are making excuses for him to make him seem better than he is. You can't be an elite corner after only one year of great play. 2 more years of playing like he did in 2008 against number 1 receivers, then yes I'll call him elite. But that is to be determined.

And no wonder people picked on Ross if he was hurt. Of course, they'll pick on the injured corner playing instead of Webster. Webster did a good job in 2008, but picking on injured Ross and the Giants pass rush the way it is as very strong, doesn't make Webster an elite corner.

Samuel has been doing solid to great for years. Newman has been very strong when healthy but the health is a big IF. We'll see how 2009 turns out. As I said he has a good chance with that pass rush to be elite(or remained masked), but we'll give him the benefit of the doubt. New DC in Giant land, Ross is healthy, LBs are better, there is no excuses for Webster and its set up nicely for him to succeed.

Well Webster was set up to fail by the immortal Tim Lewis, you're seriously under-rating how exceptionally aweful that man was. So while he did suck he sucked at doing something he never has to do anymore. Since we went ot a man cover scheme and Webster re-adjusted to it he's been incredible, if simply playing like one of the best corners not named Aso doesn't make you elite than I guess Webster isn't elite, but his play was.

Ross was picked on when healthy as well, his injury only really hurt him as a tackler/run supporter.

Just an FYI but our pass rush wasn't very good this past season, tuck and a 20 pounds under-weight Kiwi wasn't the type of incredible pass rush that makes decent corners look great. Our secondary stepped up big time last year and Webster was the cream of the crop by far.

As for Samuel he's never been more than a decent cover corner, he has exceptional ball skills, but if you want a corner to just blanket his receiver there's no way in hell you take Samuel over Webster.

jsagan77
05-19-2009, 06:08 PM
Maybe, but he also didn't have the same type of supporting cast around him and played a different role. Mikell was basically the FS last year to allow Dawkins to roam while Horton got to be more of a traditional SS. Neither choice is terrible, I guess. I just feel like Mikell is absurdly underrated.


When I saw Mikell play I thought he played very well. He hits hard and tackles well... When I watched Horton play he seemed to be everywhere maybe even a poor mans Polamalu. While I agree that either choice is adequate I still feel that for a strictly SS type role, Horton is the better selection...

BaLLiN
05-19-2009, 07:58 PM
1. he wasnt garbage his first year, he was okay, tim lewis ruined him after that. And the entire defense had a learning curve that year, we changed our scheme from traditional zone 4-3 defense to a 4-3 zone blitz/man press system. You cannot blame him for those three games, you can blame him for not getting better after that, although he was still at a disadvantage.

2. He could just have gotten beat out because the other players were simply better? Sam and RW had alot of experience with the defense, Ross had just came from that system, Dockery had a learning curve but as a NB he didnt have to make that much of an adjustment.

Im not saying Webster was great, im saying that most of you guys dont understand when/how/what happened to make him bad.

Clearly we know Tim Lewis was a horrible coach, zone did not fit Webster at all, Webster however was not very confident, made mental errors such as going for a pick instead of a PD, he has always had the physical part, but the coaching (probably alot from RW and Madison) is what made us see him as this shutdown corner.

I personally dont feel he's elite, he's definitely top 15 now, probably top 10. He had somethings that mightve helped him such as Ross being injured and inconsistent, our passrush which was not as great as the year before because of the loss of Osi and Strahan and Kiwanuka transitioning back to end.

I will vouch for him though that he creates alot of his interceptions as appose to them coming off of mistakes and still plays with the priority of not letting the ball get in the WRs hands. He is a shutdown corner in our defense at least.

Samuel is a freelances alot, and it pays off because he has great hands, vision, and agility. Id think he'd be more affected by losing a DC than Webster.

Maybe Next Year Millen2
05-19-2009, 08:22 PM
1. he wasnt garbage his first year, he was okay, tim lewis ruined him after that. And the entire defense had a learning curve that year, we changed our scheme from traditional zone 4-3 defense to a 4-3 zone blitz/man press system. You cannot blame him for those three games, you can blame him for not getting better after that, although he was still at a disadvantage.

2. He could just have gotten beat out because the other players were simply better? Sam and RW had alot of experience with the defense, Ross had just came from that system, Dockery had a learning curve but as a NB he didnt have to make that much of an adjustment.

Im not saying Webster was great, im saying that most of you guys dont understand when/how/what happened to make him bad.

Clearly we know Tim Lewis was a horrible coach, zone did not fit Webster at all, Webster however was not very confident, made mental errors such as going for a pick instead of a PD, he has always had the physical part, but the coaching (probably alot from RW and Madison) is what made us see him as this shutdown corner.

I personally dont feel he's elite, he's definitely top 15 now, probably top 10. He had somethings that mightve helped him such as Ross being injured and inconsistent, our passrush which was not as great as the year before because of the loss of Osi and Strahan and Kiwanuka transitioning back to end.

I will vouch for him though that he creates alot of his interceptions as appose to them coming off of mistakes and still plays with the priority of not letting the ball get in the WRs hands. He is a shutdown corner in our defense at least.

Samuel is a freelances alot, and it pays off because he has great hands, vision, and agility. Id think he'd be more affected by losing a DC than Webster.

I agree with everything you said. However I don't give players a full pass because of a DC. I don't give Leigh Bodden a pass because Joe Barry was one of the worst DCs of all time. Bodden didn't fit zone either but the guy was asked to do certain things and he couldn't do it,bottom line. And I consider zone easier than man so Webster should be able to play zone if he can play man IMO. The answer was it was both Webster and Lewis' problem. As I said, suck is suck, I don't care how or why it happened. And I admit that Webster did get better and did play really well in 2008. However, I want to see one more year of that before I'm fully convinced with Webster picked on more against number 1 receivers more with Ross healthy. I've seen players progress/regress and Webster may or may not if picked on more. He'll have the pass rush though and the Giants pass rush was down in 2008 but it was far from terrible. 42 sacks plus many more pressures is good enough to help out a secondary. It takes full blown lack of pressure at all to really hurt good corners. Its not like I don't consdier Webster a good corner, top 15, borderline top 10 is something I would call Webster. I've seen more than one year of strong play with Samuel. And I like the freelancing from time to time, it leads to more big plays and in a game against the NFC North, freelancing with Cutler who is int prone at times might be required. The NFC East would need a big play like that.

BaLLiN
05-19-2009, 09:32 PM
I agree with everything you said. However I don't give players a full pass because of a DC. I don't give Leigh Bodden a pass because Joe Barry was one of the worst DCs of all time. Bodden didn't fit zone either but the guy was asked to do certain things and he couldn't do it,bottom line. And I consider zone easier than man so Webster should be able to play zone if he can play man IMO. The answer was it was both Webster and Lewis' problem. As I said, suck is suck, I don't care how or why it happened. And I admit that Webster did get better and did play really well in 2008. However, I want to see one more year of that before I'm fully convinced with Webster picked on more against number 1 receivers more with Ross healthy. I've seen players progress/regress and Webster may or may not if picked on more. He'll have the pass rush though and the Giants pass rush was down in 2008 but it was far from terrible. 42 sacks plus many more pressures is good enough to help out a secondary. It takes full blown lack of pressure at all to really hurt good corners. Its not like I don't consdier Webster a good corner, top 15, borderline top 10 is something I would call Webster. I've seen more than one year of strong play with Samuel. And I like the freelancing from time to time, it leads to more big plays and in a game against the NFC North, freelancing with Cutler who is int prone at times might be required. The NFC East would need a big play like that.

Man and Zone are two different skillsets, add in the fact that Lewis played off zone you completely play to the opposite of what webster can do. I agree great players find ways to deal with bad situations, but it is what it is he was shafted. Samuel is an ideal NB freelancer to me. He is decent enough in run support but he limits YAC and is great at jumping routes. On the outside i would want a more physically dominating pair who both limit catches and are good in run support.

I feel that if anything everyone overlooks Webster but praises Ross because he's more exciting. Webster doesnt stick out in any one thing to me, except his physicality and smarts.

awfullyquiet
05-22-2009, 10:21 AM
if we do it cant be by much, we have alot of pro bowlers and premiere guys.

DE- Justin Tuck
(Demarcus Ware)
Osi Umenyiora
Trent Cole
Mathias Kiwanuka
Victor Abimiri who has improved
Brian Orakpo who could be a beast next to big al
Marcus Spears

DT- Albert Haynesworth
Broderick Bunkley
Jay Ratliff
Mike Patterson
Fred Robbins
Chris Canty

Even older guys like Cornelius Griffin and Andre Carter were pretty good in their prime, and still are decent starters.

The Vikings D-Line is nearly as good as your best of team.

I still sniff homer. Especially because you use Orakpo who hasn't played a down in the NFL.

BaLLiN
05-22-2009, 03:16 PM
The Vikings D-Line is nearly as good as your best of team.

I still sniff homer. Especially because you use Orakpo who hasn't played a down in the NFL.

The Williams brothers and Jared Allen + Ray Edwards (who?) is no where close, thats a homer statement.

Thats why Orakpo is low on the list and I said he COULD do well next to Big Al, and its not even sure if he'll play full time end they had him at LB too.

Allen is still not better than DeMarcus Ware, The Williams brothers are great run defenders by dont offer a whole lot on pass rush, just taking up blockers.

RE- Osi/Demarcus Ware
UT- Broderick Bunkley/Mike Patterson
NT- Albert Haynesworth
LE- Tuck/Cole

thats ridiculous

someone447
05-22-2009, 03:17 PM
The Williams brothers and Jared Allen + Ray Edwards (who?) is no where close, thats a homer statement.

Thats why Orakpo is low on the list and I said he COULD do well next to Big Al, and its not even sure if he'll play full time end they had him at LB too.

Allen is still not better than DeMarcus Ware, The Williams brothers are great run defenders by dont offer a whole lot on pass rush, just taking up blockers.

RE- Osi/Demarcus Ware
UT- Broderick Bunkley/Mike Patterson
NT- Albert Haynesworth
LE- Tuck/Cole

thats ridiculous

Allen, The Williamses, and Kampmann is just as ridiculous.

BaLLiN
05-22-2009, 03:24 PM
Allen, The Williamses, and Kampmann is just as ridiculous.

not as ridiculous, like a 9 out of 10 for us and a 8.5 for you guys

Gay Ork Wang
05-22-2009, 05:57 PM
lol for saying the Williams arent providing pass rush

Mr. Hero
05-22-2009, 06:19 PM
Yeah ballin you're off on kevin williams, he's a really good pass rusher, that said he's not a better tackle than fat albert, and I don't think the difference between Tommie Harris, and his annual injury problems, and Fat pat are significantly better than Bunkley and Ratliff, they're better but as the north pair age the east pair are on the upswing of their careers and do a great job against some of the league's best OLs on a regular basis. So I'll give the North DTs by a small amount, but they don't have near the edge depth we have in the east.