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View Full Version : CHAMPIONSHIP ROUND: AFC North vs. NFC North: Best Division All-Pro Team


diabsoule
05-17-2009, 02:13 PM
AFC North

Record: 2-0
Defeated AFC South & AFC East

QB Ben Roethlisberger (PIT)
RB Willie Parker (PIT)
FB Le'Ron McClain (BAL)
WR Hines Ward (PIT)
WR Chad Ochocinco (CIN)
TE Heath Miller (PIT)
LT Joe Thomas (CLE)
LG Eric Steinbach (CLE)
C Matt Birk (BAL)
RG Ben Grubbs (BAL)
RT Jared Gaither (BAL)

DE Aaron Smith (PIT)
NT Shaun Rogers (CLE)
DE Haloti Ngata (BAL)
OLB James Harrison (PIT)
ILB Ray Lewis (BAL)
ILB James Farrior (PIT)
OLB Terrell Suggs (BAL)
CB Leon Hall (CIN)
CB Ike Taylor (PIT)
FS Ed Reed (BAL)
SS Troy Polamalu (SS)

10 Notable Reserves: DE/OLB LaMarr Woodley (PIT), WR Braylon Edwards (CLE), CB Jonathan Joseph (CLE), LB D'Qwell Jackson (CLE), WR Derrick Mason (BAL), CB Eric Wright (CLE), PR/KR Joshua Cribbs (CLE), DE Trevor Pryce (BAL), QB Carson Palmer (CIN), WR Santonio Holmes (PIT)


NFC North

Record: 2-0
Defeated NFC South & NFC East

QB Jay Cutler (CHI)
RB Adrian Peterson (MIN)
FB Naufahu Tahi (MIN)
WR Calvin Johnson (DET)
WR Greg Jennings (GB)
TE Greg Olsen (CHI)
LT Bryant McKinney (MIN)
LG Steve Hutchinson (MIN)
C Olin Kreutz (CHI)
G Anthony Herrera (MIN)
RT Orlando Pace (CHI)

DE Jared Allen (MIN)
DT Pat Williams (MIN)
DT Kevin Williams (MIN)
DE Aaron Kampman (GB)
OLB Lance Briggs (CHI)
MLB Brian Urlacher (CHI)
OLB Chad Greenway (MIN)
CB Charles Woodson (GB)
CB Antoine Winfield (MIN)
FS Nick Collins (GB)
SS Kevin Payne (CHI)

10 Notable Reserves: QB Aaron Rodgers (GB), RB Matt Forte (CHI), KR/PR Devin Hester (CHI), CB Charles Tillman (CHI), WR Bernard Berrian (MIN), WR Donald Driver (GB), LB A.J. Hawk (GB), LB Nick Barnett (GB), RB Chester Taylor (MIN), OT Kevin Shaffer (CHI)

steel man
05-17-2009, 02:15 PM
this will be easy....the AFC North by far

Smooth Criminal
05-17-2009, 02:17 PM
I don't trust Cutler or the NFCN secondary enough to vote for them. The AFCN front 7 and safety combo would be impossible to move the ball. AFC has great receivers, backs and OL, and Ben just wins games. I'd love to see him play behind that line.

RAVENS/WIZARDS/ORIOLES
05-17-2009, 03:06 PM
Once again it is a very good offense but the AFCN defense is just insane

Maybe Next Year Millen2
05-17-2009, 03:11 PM
Defensive game for sure. Perfect smash mouth game. I don't think Parker would do much running, maybe he breaks one big one, if a NFC safety misses a tackle.

The three keys are Ngata with Harrison blitzing on McKinnie. Cutlers blind side is in serious jeopardy. Second key is those 2 safeties for the AFC just take away any deep game for Calvin and Berrian along with the blindside issue taking away the deep threats.The final key is Big Ben is very very clutch.

Any chance through the NFC North goes through Adrian Peterson and Shaun Rogers getting gassed. Although Hampton coming in for that might be an upgrade. Hampton and Rogers played together at Texas. That is sick.

AFC North 10-7.

Crickett
05-17-2009, 03:22 PM
This is a close one. But the AFC North wins the battle in the trenches and to me, that is more important than winning the skill position players.

Eaglez.Fan
05-17-2009, 03:34 PM
NFC North no doubt. Their skill positions blow away the AFC North's skill positions.

QB- NFC
RB- NFC
WR- NFC
OL- AFC
DL- push
LB- AFC
CB- NFC
S- AFC

Sniper
05-17-2009, 03:36 PM
OL- tie

No. Epic fail.

Eaglez.Fan
05-17-2009, 03:41 PM
No. Epic fail.

Yeah, I just realised the afc would have a better o-line but the NFC is still better as a whole.

Matthew Jones
05-17-2009, 03:47 PM
I went with the NFC North.

princefielder28
05-17-2009, 03:47 PM
Shaun Rogers and Ray Lewis up the middle with Taylor and Hall at CB. That's gonna allow the NFC North's offense to produce.

someone447
05-17-2009, 04:01 PM
These defenses are just plain sick.

I give the AFCN a slight defensive edge and the NFCN a slightly bigger offensive edge. I think the fact that the AFC's edge is on defense to make up for the NFC's slightly large edge. But I see this as essentially a coin flip, so I chose to be a homer and picked the NFCN.

marshallb
05-17-2009, 04:02 PM
This would be one hell of a matchup. I went with the NFC North, b/c of the big difference to the skill position players. I see things this way:
QB- push
RB- NFC by a lot
WR-NFC by quite a bit
TE- push
OL- AFC
DL- NFC slightly, due to 4 vs. 3
LB- AFC, but the NFC North has very good LBs as well
CB- NFC by a good margin
S- AFC by a lot

coordinator0
05-17-2009, 04:06 PM
I would grant a push to the DL's as well. Both are absolutely epic for their styles of play.

BeerBaron
05-17-2009, 04:08 PM
Still like the NFC North's front 7 plus AP. Uber pwnage. The d-line alone would run stop better that some entire defenses.

The AFC North's front 7 looks a little old in spots....and I don't love their run game with just Parker.

TitanHope
05-17-2009, 04:29 PM
It's easily the NFC North for me. I like their 4-3 Front-7 over the AFCN Front-7, and the CB's more. The AFCN has better safeties, but with worse corners, they're not as significant of a difference as they would be. The NFCN has the better offense, and while their OL isn't as good as the AFCN's, they can run-block. Adrian Peterson just clinches things for me.

703SKINS202
05-17-2009, 04:40 PM
Ed Reed+Troy Polamalu=

http://www.xbox3sixty.co.uk/e107_images/newspost_images/pwned.jpg

Thus, AFC North...

RAVENS/WIZARDS/ORIOLES
05-17-2009, 05:22 PM
It's easily the NFC North for me. I like their 4-3 Front-7 over the AFCN Front-7, and the CB's more. The AFCN has better safeties, but with worse corners, they're not as significant of a difference as they would be. The NFCN has the better offense, and while their OL isn't as good as the AFCN's, they can run-block. Adrian Peterson just clinches things for me.

I don't see how anyone could easily say it is one or the other. I like the 3-4 front 7 over the 4-3 of the NFCN. The linebackers for the AFCN are made for stopping the run and getting to the QB. Yes the NFCN corners might be better than the AFCN corners but the AFCN safeties are better than the NFCN safeties and IMO are on a whole other level than the NFCN safeties. I don't think the NFCN corners are on a whole other lever than the AFCN corners so I think DB's would go in favor of the AFCN. Ed Reed+Troy P.= WIN

TitanHope
05-17-2009, 06:24 PM
I don't see how anyone could easily say it is one or the other. I like the 3-4 front 7 over the 4-3 of the NFCN. The linebackers for the AFCN are made for stopping the run and getting to the QB. Yes the NFCN corners might be better than the AFCN corners but the AFCN safeties are better than the NFCN safeties and IMO are on a whole other level than the NFCN safeties. I don't think the NFCN corners are on a whole other lever than the AFCN corners so I think DB's would go in favor of the AFCN. Ed Reed+Troy P.= WIN

Well, I have a thing for 4-3 fronts like you do for 3-4 fronts! ;) And I was just being dramatic with the easy part.

That 4-3 line is just gobble-gobble-gobble, for the lack of a better term. Kevin Williams, in my opinion, is the 2nd best DT in the NFL behind Albert Haynesworth. They have the best defensive lineman, along with Pat Williams who can anchor, and two excellent pass-rushers with non-stop motors in Allen and Kampman. Having a DL that can stop the run and stop the passer allows you to do a lot on defense.

I'd just rather have the best talent along the DL and CB's. The AFCN has the sexy blitz aspect, but if that isn't successful, I don't want Ike Taylor vs Calvin Johnson to be the deciding matchup.

But, as I said before, with Adrian Peterson they have the superior rushing attack and can wear down a defense - even one as vaunted as the AFCN...

...AD will definitely need an icebath afterwards though. :D

XxXdragonXxX
05-17-2009, 06:54 PM
The AFC North's offense is WEAK. They really should have lost to the AFC South and East.

RAVENS/WIZARDS/ORIOLES
05-17-2009, 06:58 PM
The AFC North's offense is WEAK. They really should have lost to the AFC South and East.

How are they weak? I mean it is not as flashy as the other teams but they are not weak. A huge O-line to get Willis and Willie good yards. Hines Ward and 85 and if you add Mason it is all about 1st downs when it comes to passing. Yea we won't have huge passes but it would be about clock management and playing defense. With Ed Reed and Troy P. in coverage I can see at least 2 interceptions and one for a TD.

XxXdragonXxX
05-17-2009, 07:11 PM
How are they weak? I mean it is not as flashy as the other teams but they are not weak. A huge O-line to get Willis and Willie good yards. Hines Ward and 85 and if you add Mason it is all about 1st downs when it comes to passing. Yea we won't have huge passes but it would be about clock management and playing defense. With Ed Reed and Troy P. in coverage I can see at least 2 interceptions and one for a TD.

For a normal NFL team, that would be a great offense...but for a division All-Pro team, facing the amazing defenses that other division all-pro teams field, it is very weak.

Thumper
05-17-2009, 07:23 PM
Kevin Williams+ Pat Williams + Tommie Harris (How was he left out) + Aaron Kampman + Jared Allen=

http://www.xbox3sixty.co.uk/e107_images/newspost_images/pwned.jpg

QB Jay Cutler (CHI)
RB Adrian Peterson (MIN)
RB Matt Forte (CHI)
WR Calvin Johnson (DET)
WR Greg Jennings (GB)
WR Bernard Berrian (MIN)
WR Donald Driver (GB)
TE Greg Olsen (CHI)
=

http://images.paraorkut.com/img/funnypics/images/g/granny_owned-12246.jpg
Thus, NFC North...

Fixed it. :D

Bucs_Rule
05-17-2009, 08:02 PM
How are they weak? I mean it is not as flashy as the other teams but they are not weak. A huge O-line to get Willis and Willie good yards. Hines Ward and 85 and if you add Mason it is all about 1st downs when it comes to passing. Yea we won't have huge passes but it would be about clock management and playing defense. With Ed Reed and Troy P. in coverage I can see at least 2 interceptions and one for a TD.

It can be tough to have clock management if you can't run the ball. The Williams brothers are great against the run, if they can't run it will be very tough for a weak passing game.

The NFC North has a very good passing offense, the AFC can't mainly focus on the run like the NFC defense can.

LonghornsLegend
05-17-2009, 08:03 PM
The NFC North for me, both have great defenses albeit AFC North is better on that side, but it's not as huge of a gap as it is for the offenses on both sides, and the NFC North would score more then 7 points very easily even against that defense.

the decider13
05-17-2009, 08:14 PM
This just boils down to who has more fans...AFC or NFC.

703SKINS202
05-17-2009, 08:16 PM
This just boils down to who has more fans...AFC or NFC.

Nah, I'm a fan of that AFC defense playboy. Although most probably will have homer vision on.

BeerBaron
05-17-2009, 08:17 PM
This just boils down to who has more fans...AFC or NFC.

The AFC North got votes from NFC fans like Sniper and Wicket...not all it boils down to.

diabsoule
05-17-2009, 08:21 PM
I felt the NFCN should have lost last round. This round, I think the AFC North's defense presents an even bigger problem for the NFC North. Cutler would be in jeopardy all game with blitzes coming at him from all angles. Add in Ed Reed and Troy P to pick off any errant pass or deck any receiver ballsy enough to go into the middle of the field and that offense gets scared quick. AP's yards would be extremely hard to come by and I don't think their running game would be a factor.

Sure, the AFC North's offense isn't flashy but their effective. That OL is very, very good and while they may not get many yards in the run game they have enough weapons to move the ball.

It would be close but the AFC North's grit and toughness beats the NFC North's flash.

LonghornsLegend
05-17-2009, 08:26 PM
I felt the NFCN should have lost last round. This round, I think the AFC North's defense presents an even bigger problem for the NFC North. Cutler would be in jeopardy all game with blitzes coming at him from all angles. Add in Ed Reed and Troy P to pick off any errant pass or deck any receiver ballsy enough to go into the middle of the field and that offense gets scared quick. AP's yards would be extremely hard to come by and I don't think their running game would be a factor.

Sure, the AFC North's offense isn't flashy but their effective. That OL is very, very good and while they may not get many yards in the run game they have enough weapons to move the ball.

It would be close but the AFC North's grit and toughness beats the NFC North's flash.


I think guys like Jennings and Calvin are the type of WR's who can benefit from quick throws, 3 step drops, and there is nothing a defense can do about that...Jennings makes a living off of that, Calvin is a monster, Cutler has the type of arm to work those short throws and mix in Adrian Peterson enough to keep them off their heels.


I also think the AFC North would have alot of trouble running the ball vs that D-line, and would have a much tougher time moving the ball then the NFC North would...I think AD or Calvin would have at least one huge play in them to change the dynamics of the game, the AFC North doesn't really have anyone like that on the offense.


It would be low scoring, but the AFCN wouldn't score more points then the NFCN to me.

the decider13
05-17-2009, 08:27 PM
The AFC North got votes from NFC fans like Sniper and Wicket...not all it boils down to.

There are like 3-4 voting opposite on each side...so no it isn't only that. But it is the majority.

diabsoule
05-17-2009, 08:27 PM
This just boils down to who has more fans...AFC or NFC.

No, I don't think it does. But homerism, no matter how large or small, does play a huge part into it.

While I may like one division's personnel better than the other's it is very, very hard for me to say this one division is altogether better than that one.

My top 4 divisions throughout this whole competition have been the AFC North, AFC South, NFC East, and NFC North.

I will say, though, that I think the AFC South's is probably the most underrated and the NFC North's more overrated. The reason I say that about the NFCN is that I do NOT like their OL at all. I feel that going against a D that offers a great pass rush (NFC East) or a great blitzing D (AFC North) that they would be eaten alive.

While the NFC North has a tremendous defense, I feel that they have gone against two (NFCE & AFCN) that would present some problems. NFCN defense is more geared at stopping the run while the NFCE & AFCN are equally adept at stopping the run and rushing the passer. If Cutler got dinged a couple of times (and he would by both of those defenses) that would really mess with his head, especially against an AFCN defense that has blitzes coming from all angles.

It's been proven time and again, if you consistently hit the QB and jam the receivers while punishing them for making a catch then you throw the offense off their rhythm.

GB12
05-17-2009, 08:32 PM
There are like 3-4 voting opposite on each side...so no it isn't only that. But it is the majority.
From the names I recognize 10 NFC fans voted for the AFC and 7 AFC fans voted for the NFC.

Maybe Next Year Millen2
05-17-2009, 08:40 PM
No, I don't think it does. But homerism, no matter how large or small, does play a huge part into it.

While I may like one division's personnel better than the other's it is very, very hard for me to say this one division is altogether better than that one.

My top 4 divisions throughout this whole competition have been the AFC North, AFC South, NFC East, and NFC North.

I will say, though, that I think the AFC South's is probably the most underrated and the NFC North's more overrated. The reason I say that about the NFCN is that I do NOT like their OL at all. I feel that going against a D that offers a great pass rush (NFC East) or a great blitzing D (AFC North) that they would be eaten alive.

While the NFC North has a tremendous defense, I feel that they have gone against two (NFCE & AFCN) that would present some problems. NFCN defense is more geared at stopping the run while the NFCE & AFCN are equally adept at stopping the run and rushing the passer. If Cutler got dinged a couple of times (and he would by both of those defenses) that would really mess with his head, especially against an AFCN defense that has blitzes coming from all angles.

It's been proven time and again, if you consistently hit the QB and jam the receivers while punishing them for making a catch then you throw the offense off their rhythm.

Agreed. I thought NFC East would win as well last round because of the DEs and Ware blitzing. Both the East and AFC North are extremely aggressive while lacking corners. Look at Pittsburgh, lack at corner but are aggressive to get pressure and stop the run. Thus they win. And I think the AFC North would win. Pressure on the QB changes even the best offenses. And the Oline of the AFC North is most equipped to stop pressure, especially from a defense that probably won't blitz as much. NFC North is front 4 rush only, is how they operate. Pressure for instance stopped one of the greatest Os of all time in 2007 Pats. Brady got beat down in the Super Bowl because of pressure and were limited big time with Randy Moss,Stallworth and Welker. Of course the Pats didn't have All Day. Pressure wins, then when you have those safeties limiting the big plays and making game changing ints because of the pressure, well its in the AFC Norths favor. Plus Big Ben I'd take him over Cutler with the game on the line. Close defensive game that goes to the AFC.

the decider13
05-17-2009, 08:55 PM
No, I don't think it does. But homerism, no matter how large or small, does play a huge part into it.

While I may like one division's personnel better than the other's it is very, very hard for me to say this one division is altogether better than that one.

My top 4 divisions throughout this whole competition have been the AFC North, AFC South, NFC East, and NFC North.

I will say, though, that I think the AFC South's is probably the most underrated and the NFC North's more overrated. The reason I say that about the NFCN is that I do NOT like their OL at all. I feel that going against a D that offers a great pass rush (NFC East) or a great blitzing D (AFC North) that they would be eaten alive.

While the NFC North has a tremendous defense, I feel that they have gone against two (NFCE & AFCN) that would present some problems. NFCN defense is more geared at stopping the run while the NFCE & AFCN are equally adept at stopping the run and rushing the passer. If Cutler got dinged a couple of times (and he would by both of those defenses) that would really mess with his head, especially against an AFCN defense that has blitzes coming from all angles.

It's been proven time and again, if you consistently hit the QB and jam the receivers while punishing them for making a catch then you throw the offense off their rhythm.

I honestly thought that the AFC south should have made it to the finals, they were my personal favorite, followed by the AFC North.

I'm just not a big fan of the NFC north. Their D line is amazing, but overall, the team is almost all vikings. I don't find the defense to be nearly as dominant as the AFCs nor do I think their Oline is as good.

The NFC North's WR and RB combo is sick, there is no denying that. But to me, there is just too much disparity in the defense.

BeerBaron
05-17-2009, 09:14 PM
I honestly thought that the AFC south should have made it to the finals, they were my personal favorite, followed by the AFC North.

I'm just not a big fan of the NFC north. Their D line is amazing, but overall, the team is almost all vikings. I don't find the defense to be nearly as dominant as the AFCs nor do I think their Oline is as good.

The NFC North's WR and RB combo is sick, there is no denying that. But to me, there is just too much disparity in the defense.

The Vikings, as they are right now, plus Jay Cutler and Calvin Johnson would devastate anyone and everyone in their path. That's not so much of a bad thing.

diabsoule
05-17-2009, 09:19 PM
The Vikings, as they are right now, plus Jay Cutler and Calvin Johnson would devastate anyone and everyone in their path. That's not so much of a bad thing.

However, if Peyton Manning with his quick release throwing to Reggie Wayne, Andre Johnson, and Dallas Clark/Owen Daniels wasn't enough for them to beat the AFC North then I have a hard time imaging the NFC North beating the AFC North.

the decider13
05-17-2009, 09:20 PM
However, if Peyton Manning with his quick release throwing to Reggie Wayne, Andre Johnson, and Dallas Clark/Owen Daniels wasn't enough for them to beat the AFC North then I have a hard time imaging the NFC North beating the AFC North.

QFT

Can't believe they lost

TitanHope
05-17-2009, 09:23 PM
While the NFC North has a tremendous defense, I feel that they have gone against two (NFCE & AFCN) that would present some problems. NFCN defense is more geared at stopping the run while the NFCE & AFCN are equally adept at stopping the run and rushing the passer. If Cutler got dinged a couple of times (and he would by both of those defenses) that would really mess with his head, especially against an AFCN defense that has blitzes coming from all angles.

I disagree about the NFCN's ability to rush the passer since they have Kevin Williams, Jared Allen, and Aaron Kampman, and Greenway is a good blitzer. I think the NFCN is way more well-rounded of a defense considering the flexibility they'll have with their LB corps and safeties. Big Ben also led the NFL in fumbles, so both QB's can be shaky,

As for Adrian Peterson, he'll always be a factor. I think that run-blocking is based mostly on the talent of the RB than the talent of the OL, but if it's one thing that that the NFCN OL can do, it's run block. Not saying AD is gonna go crazy on them, but he's the best RB in the entire NFL and the AFCN defense is not infallable.

LonghornsLegend
05-17-2009, 09:35 PM
How long is this poll staying open? It's going to be down to the wire.

diabsoule
05-17-2009, 09:42 PM
How long is this poll staying open? It's going to be down to the wire.

Tomorrow will be the last day to vote.

Boston
05-17-2009, 10:01 PM
I think kickers and punters should be included for this game, because this probably would come down to whichever team has the best special teams unit, and of course, Hester > All.

CC.SD
05-17-2009, 11:27 PM
I love Reed and Troy together but it's got to be the NFC North. Cutler+AD+Calvin=Jesus overload.

diabsoule
05-17-2009, 11:30 PM
I love Reed and Troy together but it's got to be the NFC North. Cutler+AD+Calvin=Jesus overload.

Again, how is that combination better than the Peyton Manning to Reggie Wayne, Andre Johnson, Dallas Clark/Owen Daniels combo that the AFC North team already beat?

TitanHope
05-18-2009, 12:19 AM
Again, how is that combination better than the Peyton Manning to Reggie Wayne, Andre Johnson, Dallas Clark/Owen Daniels combo that the AFC North team already beat?

They're all just realizing how foolish it was not to vote for the AFC South, so they're atoning for it! :D

In seriousness, probably cause of Adrian Peterson at RB. That's the only edge I see on offense, but the NFC North defense is better at every unit aside from the secondary (Woodson/Winfield and Finnegan/Mathis are a wash, but the AFCS Safeties are better). I think it's the combination of those two factors.

A Perfect Score
05-18-2009, 12:45 AM
for me, it came down to the fact that the NFCN oline is just not that good, and i dont care how nice Cutler + AD + Calvin is, they would have absolutely no where to go...that Front 7 would absolutely terrorize that NFCN oline, whereas the AFCN oline is nasty, and while the NFCN has a nice Dline, I think that that great oline of the AFCN would handle them much easier then the other way around.

Brothgar
05-18-2009, 01:09 AM
This was really close until you got to the secondary. AFC North is easily wins based on the secondary.

XxXdragonXxX
05-18-2009, 10:32 AM
Again, how is that combination better than the Peyton Manning to Reggie Wayne, Andre Johnson, Dallas Clark/Owen Daniels combo that the AFC North team already beat?

Its not. The AFC South should have won that, and they would beat the NFC North too.

diabsoule
05-18-2009, 10:45 AM
Its not. The AFC South should have won that, and they would beat the NFC North too.

While that point is debatable, I find both the AFC North and AFC South's division teams better as a whole than the NFC North.

CC.SD
05-18-2009, 01:25 PM
Again, how is that combination better than the Peyton Manning to Reggie Wayne, Andre Johnson, Dallas Clark/Owen Daniels combo that the AFC North team already beat?

It's not a knock on those guys, but it is better. AD is the missing ingredient and personally I'd take Calvin over Reggie and Andre. Obviously Peyton>Cutler, but honestly with that kind of supporting cast Cutler would excel to the point that the difference can't be THAT pronounced. It's just a personal preference.

Cutler zipping balls to Calvin? The Raiders passed on both these guys, in consecutive drafts, for Michael Huff and Jamarcus Russell. Would have been amazing to see, but I'm grateful. Throwing Adrian Peterson into that equation is basically unlocking God mode.

RAVENS/WIZARDS/ORIOLES
05-18-2009, 02:29 PM
It's not a knock on those guys, but it is better. AD is the missing ingredient and personally I'd take Calvin over Reggie and Andre. Obviously Peyton>Cutler, but honestly with that kind of supporting cast Cutler would excel to the point that the difference can't be THAT pronounced. It's just a personal preference.

Cutler zipping balls to Calvin? The Raiders passed on both these guys, in consecutive drafts, for Michael Huff and Jamarcus Russell. Would have been amazing to see, but I'm grateful. Throwing Adrian Peterson into that equation is basically unlocking God mode.

Are you serious??? I mean I know Calvin is a beast but from what Andre has done I will take Andre over Calvin.

duckseason
05-18-2009, 02:51 PM
All this talk about which team would bring a superior blitz and which team would be doing this or that is moot without knowing who is running the respective units and how they are going about it. Or at a bare minimum examining the matchups and how they'd be forced to react to each other's strengths.

Also, I don't see much talk about the notable reserves.

A few things are obvious though. How are the AFC guys going to terrorize Cutler when they are forced to not only account for the tremendous receiving options of Calvin, Jennings and Berrian, but also the ridiculous running game featuring AD? How are they ever going to bring many on a blitz? I say go for it. Blitz me all you want you idiots. Not only are there few exploitable holes in my line, but I have countless ways of exploiting the holes you leave open by blitzing heavily.

Your corners are not suited to handle the back end by themselves against my field-stretching WR's. Polamalu will always be in coverage rather than doing what he does best. I mean, the AFC squad would certainly be forced to play a nickel as their base defense, depriving them of one of those fearsome LB's. Who in their right mind would be using a fullback with the personnel available to them with the NFC squad, knowing how ridiculously outmatched their opponent was in the passing game? With the strength of Cutler's arm and the way NFL rules currently favor the WR so heavily, that offense is absolutely unstoppable. AD just puts it way over the top. Just too many elite weapons that complement each other so well. Regardless of personnel, a team would need an extra man on defense to contain these guys.

On the other side, the AFC team is unable to exploit these same weaknesses. Their offense is far less able to stretch the defenses or force a team to play the box too heavily against the run. I mean, the NFC North squad shutting down the run is a given. No question. They would force the AFC to beat them through the air, and without anybody who requires a double team, they could contain the pass much more effectively than the AFC.

In short, the NFC squad appears to be better suited to exploit mismatches. They're just far more explosive on offense and more balanced on defense. The AFC corners are what really give it away for me. They would need some serious help. The AFC just seems to be in much more of a "pick your poison" situation on defense. They seem too slow to be able to contain everything the NFC presents.

I fail to mention the offensive lines because I feel it's nearly a push. The trench play is very difficult to project in this match up. The middle of each defense is ridiculously stout. I believe everything happens inside out, but feel that both teams are solid enough up front that the question became outside match ups and how they would affect each team's ability to do what they wanted with their LB's/S's.

But as I said, who are the coaches and are they utilizing their personnel the way I would? I must say that I prefer the coaches of the AFC, and I prefer the 3-4 look on defense. Give me the Steelers coaching staff and that personnel, and I'd believe they could beat just about anybody. And surely, neither team would win every time out of ten.

But given the listed personnel on it's own, I'd prefer the NFC North and it's a pretty easy decision.

diesel
05-18-2009, 04:59 PM
Being a Dallas fan, seeing that Reed/Polamalu safety combo makes me cry...
That being said Cutler wouldn't even get a pass off on that D. And if he did...well, It'd be going the other way. Giving Ben a line like that would be ridiculous. Although Peterson is unbelievable, I still give it to the AFC North.

Gay Ork Wang
05-18-2009, 06:03 PM
duckseason has some sick skills :o

BeerBaron
05-18-2009, 06:05 PM
You go Duckseason! Spot on...spot on.

SCSteeler
05-18-2009, 06:38 PM
NFC North no doubt. Their skill positions blow away the AFC North's skill positions.

QB- NFC
RB- NFC
WR- NFC
OL- AFC
DL- push
LB- AFC
CB- NFC
S- AFC



did you just pick Cutler over Rothlisberger? I don't even need to argue that one. Imagine what Big Ben could do with a great O-line.
and how many playoff wins or rings do Calvin Johnson and G. Jennings have? Ward has always come through, forever. 85 with Big Ben would be sick, too! NFCN corners are old.
...bottom line is Reed and Polamalu could beat any team, anytime, by themselves.

SCSteeler
05-18-2009, 06:52 PM
All this talk about which team would bring a superior blitz and which team would be doing this or that is moot without knowing who is running the respective units and how they are going about it. Or at a bare minimum examining the matchups and how they'd be forced to react to each other's strengths.

Also, I don't see much talk about the notable reserves.

A few things are obvious though. How are the AFC guys going to terrorize Cutler when they are forced to not only account for the tremendous receiving options of Calvin, Jennings and Berrian, but also the ridiculous running game featuring AD? How are they ever going to bring many on a blitz? I say go for it. Blitz me all you want you idiots. Not only are there few exploitable holes in my line, but I have countless ways of exploiting the holes you leave open by blitzing heavily.

Your corners are not suited to handle the back end by themselves against my field-stretching WR's. Polamalu will always be in coverage rather than doing what he does best. I mean, the AFC squad would certainly be forced to play a nickel as their base defense, depriving them of one of those fearsome LB's. Who in their right mind would be using a fullback with the personnel available to them with the NFC squad, knowing how ridiculously outmatched their opponent was in the passing game? With the strength of Cutler's arm and the way NFL rules currently favor the WR so heavily, that offense is absolutely unstoppable. AD just puts it way over the top. Just too many elite weapons that complement each other so well. Regardless of personnel, a team would need an extra man on defense to contain these guys.

On the other side, the AFC team is unable to exploit these same weaknesses. Their offense is far less able to stretch the defenses or force a team to play the box too heavily against the run. I mean, the NFC North squad shutting down the run is a given. No question. They would force the AFC to beat them through the air, and without anybody who requires a double team, they could contain the pass much more effectively than the AFC.

In short, the NFC squad appears to be better suited to exploit mismatches. They're just far more explosive on offense and more balanced on defense. The AFC corners are what really give it away for me. They would need some serious help. The AFC just seems to be in much more of a "pick your poison" situation on defense. They seem too slow to be able to contain everything the NFC presents.

I fail to mention the offensive lines because I feel it's nearly a push. The trench play is very difficult to project in this match up. The middle of each defense is ridiculously stout. I believe everything happens inside out, but feel that both teams are solid enough up front that the question became outside match ups and how they would affect each team's ability to do what they wanted with their LB's/S's.

But as I said, who are the coaches and are they utilizing their personnel the way I would? I must say that I prefer the coaches of the AFC, and I prefer the 3-4 look on defense. Give me the Steelers coaching staff and that personnel, and I'd believe they could beat just about anybody. And surely, neither team would win every time out of ten.

But given the listed personnel on it's own, I'd prefer the NFC North and it's a pretty easy decision.



i don't know who would be the OC of the AFCN, but i'm pretty sure Tomlin would be HC and Lebeau would be DC.

i love your points, best post on here yet. but i think your underestimating Willie Parker, all he needs is 1 or 2 big runs. and AP is still young, a good coach could shut him down. Reed and Polamalu could take care of AP.
the CB vs WR match ups are sick! i still think the AFCN corners are better than what everyones sayin.

BeerBaron
05-18-2009, 06:56 PM
i don't know who would be the OC of the AFCN, but i'm pretty sure Tomlin would be HC and Lebeau would be DC.

i love your points, best post on here yet. but i think your underestimating Willie Parker, all he needs is 1 or 2 big runs. and AP is still young, a good coach could shut him down. Reed and Polamalu could take care of AP.
the CB vs WR match ups are sick! i still think the AFCN corners are better than what everyones sayin.

Not if they're needed to double up all of the deep threats the North has. Calvin, Hester, Berrian shooting down the field.....yikes. Hate to be that DC. And like Duckseason said, blitz all you want AFCN....AP will gash ya.

duckseason
05-18-2009, 07:33 PM
did you just pick Cutler over Rothlisberger? I don't even need to argue that one. Imagine what Big Ben could do with a great O-line.
and how many playoff wins or rings do Calvin Johnson and G. Jennings have? Ward has always come through, forever. 85 with Big Ben would be sick, too! NFCN corners are old.
...bottom line is Reed and Polamalu could beat any team, anytime, by themselves.
We're not giving out plaques and certificates here. It's not a HOF ballot. All the players we're talking about here are among the best. I can make a similarly meaningless proposition by asking you to imagine what Cutler could do with a great OL. A great OL isn't so great when they have an equally great front 7 in front of them. Both these lines would still struggle to contain guys like Rogers and Ngata and the Williams'. And Allen and Kampman coming off the edges? Or Suggs and Harrison?

Would one be foolish to pick Cutler over Roethlisberger? Of course not. It's merely a matter of preference/fit. Roethlisberger is certainly not the definitively superior passer or even overall player. He has much better credentials, but that's all meaningless when discussing his tangible attributes and how they might be used in conjuction with those of the players around him.

If the NFL held a re-draft of the entire league, you better believe it's not playoff wins that are going to determine who's selected over who. Calvin Johnson is going to be either the first or second WR selected. Andre Johnson and Larry Fitzgerald are the only guys teams would consider picking ahead of him. Same thing with Peterson. He's obviously going to be the first RB selected.

I dunno, if it were my team, I'd probably start Edwards and Holmes and put Ward in the slot. Chad seems to have fallen off a bit with his ability to gain separation and get open. But perhaps that's just a lack of effort and the result of the Bengals' languid offense. I feel that Edwards has a better shot at bouncing back to elite status than Ocho does. Either way, I'd have Ward in the slot and pick from the other three for my outside guys. I think this would enable them to better exploit the NFC North defense. Holmes would be extremely valuable in stretching the defense the way we'd see the NFC do with Jennings and Berrian.

duckseason
05-18-2009, 07:46 PM
i don't know who would be the OC of the AFCN, but i'm pretty sure Tomlin would be HC and Lebeau would be DC.

i love your points, best post on here yet. but i think your underestimating Willie Parker, all he needs is 1 or 2 big runs. and AP is still young, a good coach could shut him down. Reed and Polamalu could take care of AP.
the CB vs WR match ups are sick! i still think the AFCN corners are better than what everyones sayin.
Oh, Willie Parker is a tremendous talent. I wouldn't say he's an elite RB, but he's very good. When I talk about the NFC shutting down their running game, I'm more pointing toward the defense and saying that the RB they face is nearly irrelevant. You might say the same about the AFC squad, but like I said, I think the NFC has a better ability to spread the defense out through the air, and obviously they just have the RB who is tougher to contain.

I don't mean to knock any of the AFC North's players at all. Maybe their corners, but that's just in comparison to what they'd be facing. I could probably make a pretty convincing case for the AFC as well. But I'd want to shuffle the roster a bit.

BmoreBlackByrdz
05-18-2009, 07:54 PM
damn this one's real close

NFCN- 58
AFCN- 57

BeerBaron
05-18-2009, 07:56 PM
Tomorrow will be the last day to vote.

I think the NFC North has already won.... :)

diabsoule
05-18-2009, 08:18 PM
I think the NFC North has already won.... :)

Since when does your day end at 8pm?

Smokey Joe
05-18-2009, 08:26 PM
damn, tied 59-59 right now.

BeerBaron
05-18-2009, 08:32 PM
damn, tied 59-59 right now.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v613/BeerBaron/ohnoguy.jpg










(I don't even need to say "Oh No!" because I think everyone who saw that automatically though it in their heads anyway)

Ravens1991
05-18-2009, 08:37 PM
over/under...


5 accounts will be made for the sole purpose of voting for a team.

BeerBaron
05-18-2009, 08:42 PM
over/under...


5 accounts will be made for the sole purpose of voting for a team.

Now that you mention it....

RAVENS/WIZARDS/ORIOLES and trkaline both voted for the AFC North and tripped the AE detector like an hour ago.....

hmmmmmm!!

RAVENS/WIZARDS/ORIOLES
05-18-2009, 08:48 PM
Now that you mention it....

RAVENS/WIZARDS/ORIOLES and trkaline both voted for the AFC North and tripped the AE detector like an hour ago.....

hmmmmmm!!

What is AE?

trkaline doesn't have a computer right now and I showed him the teams and asked him what his vote was and he chose the AFCN and since me and him are friends he gave me his account info and I voted for him. He is a Ravens fan and has the right to vote. Since his laptop is down I did it for him. I didn't just do it without his permission he told me what team to vote for after I told him the teams

BeerBaron
05-18-2009, 09:05 PM
What is AE?

trkaline doesn't have a computer right now and I showed him the teams and asked him what his vote was and he chose the AFCN and since me and him are friends he gave me his account info and I voted for him. He is a Ravens fan and has the right to vote. Since his laptop is down I did it for him. I didn't just do it without his permission he told me what team to vote for after I told him the teams

Alright, I'll take your word for it ;)...

Maybe this one should just end in a tie? It's been pretty epic.

Sniper
05-18-2009, 09:05 PM
Alright, I'll take your word for it ;)...

Maybe this one should just end in a tie? It's been pretty epic.

Do you always enjoy kissing your sister?

BeerBaron
05-18-2009, 09:08 PM
Do you always enjoy kissing your sister?

The next 3 post yokel with -17 rep could swing this thing one way or the other....!

Sniper
05-18-2009, 09:09 PM
The next 3 post yokel with -17 rep could swing this thing one way or the other....!

THAT'S WHY WE AMERICAN FOOTBALL!

So exciting!

BeerBaron
05-18-2009, 09:13 PM
THAT'S WHY WE AMERICAN FOOTBALL!

So exciting!

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v613/BeerBaron/WeAmericanFootball.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v613/BeerBaron/WeAmericanFootball2.jpg

Yeah they suck...so what I made them....there are betters ones around.

Maybe Next Year Millen2
05-18-2009, 09:13 PM
Alright, I'll take your word for it ;)...

Maybe this one should just end in a tie? It's been pretty epic.

"I didn't know games could end in ties"-Donovan McNabb

CC.SD
05-18-2009, 09:23 PM
Are you serious??? I mean I know Calvin is a beast but from what Andre has done I will take Andre over Calvin.

I have to tell you, I'm serious. I like to think of most of my opinions as fact-based but if ever there was a prospect I would tell you is God in every possible situation, it's Calvin. As far as I'm concerned his career has not even begun yet.

RAVENS/WIZARDS/ORIOLES
05-18-2009, 09:25 PM
I have to tell you, I'm serious. I like to think of most of my opinions as fact-based but if ever there was a prospect I would tell you is God in every possible situation, it's Calvin. As far as I'm concerned his career has not even begun yet.

Yes but we are not talking about potential we are talking about if there was a game tomorrow who would win. With that said I would choose Andre Johnson

CC.SD
05-18-2009, 09:34 PM
Yes but we are not talking about potential we are talking about if there was a game tomorrow who would win. With that said I would choose Andre Johnson

Yah I don't fault you. I would take Calvin, even though I know watching him play long enough will eventually blind me. It will be worth it.

Sniper
05-18-2009, 09:36 PM
The NFC North takes the lead on the strength of Charles Woodson!

BeerBaron
05-18-2009, 09:36 PM
The NFC North takes the lead on the strength of Charles Woodson!

Pretty sure it was all Jay Cutler there sir

LonghornsLegend
05-18-2009, 09:38 PM
With the strength of Cutler's arm and the way NFL rules currently favor the WR so heavily, that offense is absolutely unstoppable. AD just puts it way over the top. Just too many elite weapons that complement each other so well. Regardless of personnel, a team would need an extra man on defense to contain these guys.

That sums up my feelings really well, good post.


It's not that people are trying to put all the stock in two guys and just voting for them two, but you cannot ignore the type of play-makers these two are, when each week the defenses were geared to stop only them. You can only imagine them on the same team, with personnel all around them.


Also that was a good description of the NFC North Defense vs the AFC North Offense, I don't see them scoring nearly enough to keep up.

Sniper
05-18-2009, 09:39 PM
Pretty sure it was all Jay Cutler there sir

Jay Cutler wishes he could have sniffed the Heisman. I can't wait for Cutler to throw Woodson, like, three picks this year.

tjsunstein
05-18-2009, 10:16 PM
I did my part and voted for the North. I think that offense is way too powerful even for that defense.

Hines
05-18-2009, 10:31 PM
This honestly is a very close matchup. I chose the AFCN because I am a homer. Oh well. You cannot do wrong with any team. I do believe that the NFCE is better than the NFCN.

diabsoule
05-18-2009, 10:41 PM
This honestly is a very close matchup. I chose the AFCN because I am a homer. Oh well. You cannot do wrong with any team. I do believe that the NFCE is better than the NFCN.

I thought so as well

CC.SD
05-18-2009, 11:13 PM
zomg Epic tie.

The Dynasty
05-18-2009, 11:13 PM
zomg Epic tie.

yeah it must have just happened too because at midnight it was 61-59 NFC North.

thefalconer
05-18-2009, 11:16 PM
i just broke it!

BeerBaron
05-18-2009, 11:16 PM
The NFC North was ahead by two at midnight!! They winnnnn1!!!!111oneone!!!!

yayz.

Smokey Joe
05-19-2009, 12:41 AM
Ohh, both sides have 62 votes, the same number I wore for football. Due to that, I will give out plus rep to all of the posts in this thread until I can't give out anymore, starting with the first post!

EDIT: Hooooray for the first four posts in this thread!

Mr. Stiller
05-19-2009, 12:46 AM
I think guys like Jennings and Calvin are the type of WR's who can benefit from quick throws, 3 step drops, and there is nothing a defense can do about that...Jennings makes a living off of that, Calvin is a monster, Cutler has the type of arm to work those short throws and mix in Adrian Peterson enough to keep them off their heels.


I also think the AFC North would have alot of trouble running the ball vs that D-line, and would have a much tougher time moving the ball then the NFC North would...I think AD or Calvin would have at least one huge play in them to change the dynamics of the game, the AFC North doesn't really have anyone like that on the offense.


It would be low scoring, but the AFCN wouldn't score more points then the NFCN to me.

And guys like Derrick Mason, Hines Ward and Chad Johnson have made a living exploiting zone coverages.

SCSteeler
05-19-2009, 12:57 AM
AFCN by 1!!!!...that's how we do!...nevermind.

cunit2k9
05-19-2009, 01:02 AM
Jay Cutler shouldn't even be the starter. Aaron Rodgers is better. Cutler's stats are inflated because they threw the ball every play.

LonghornsLegend
05-19-2009, 01:22 AM
And guys like Derrick Mason, Hines Ward and Chad Johnson have made a living exploiting zone coverages.

Oh no, not Derrick Mason and Hines Ward in a fantasy battle, that's epic stuff at WR right there...What was I thinking bringing up Calvin Johnson and Greg Jennings.

Me Likey Rookies
05-19-2009, 01:59 AM
I just broke the tie, 64-63 nfc north

Smokey Joe
05-19-2009, 07:01 AM
Jay Cutler shouldn't even be the starter. Aaron Rodgers is better. Cutler's stats are inflated because they threw the ball every play.
Nothing but lies.

eaglesalltheway
05-19-2009, 07:24 AM
I just voted, and for AFC N, and it broke the tie! Holy crap... Well the AFC North's lines are what did it for me. I would've had them winning it all anyway, even if the East was up there (just so you guys no I'm not making it a homer-fest, lol)

Mr. Stiller
05-19-2009, 02:04 PM
Oh no, not Derrick Mason and Hines Ward in a fantasy battle, that's epic stuff at WR right there...What was I thinking bringing up Calvin Johnson and Greg Jennings.

My bad, I thought we were trying to figure out who would win in a hard fought game. All imaginary.

I didn't know it was solely focusing on hype, intangibles and fantasy #'s.

I don't doubt Johnson/Jennings would have success. But at the same time, my point is still Valid.

Mason/Ward have made a heck of a career exploiting Zone defenses and the NFCN is a cover2 based defense.

Manic Depressant
05-19-2009, 02:10 PM
My bad, I thought we were trying to figure out who would win in a hard fought game. All imaginary.

I didn't know it was solely focusing on hype, intangibles and fantasy #'s.

I don't doubt Johnson/Jennings would have success. But at the same time, my point is still Valid.

Mason/Ward have made a heck of a career exploiting Zone defenses and the NFCN is a cover2 based defense.

How can you make the determination that the NFC North would play a Cover 2?

Gay Ork Wang
05-19-2009, 02:11 PM
How can you make the determination that the NFC North would play a Cover 2?
because that would make Woodson less effective

Sniper
05-19-2009, 02:12 PM
because that would make Woodson less effective

Lies. Nothing makes Charles Woodson less effective.

Gay Ork Wang
05-19-2009, 02:12 PM
Lies. Nothing makes Charles Woodson less effective.
not even Charles Woodson?

Sniper
05-19-2009, 02:14 PM
not even Charles Woodson?

Charles Woodson is like a fine wine. He gets better with age. He won the Heisman at the age of 20. Now he's a Pro Bowl corner. Imagine when he's, like, 65? He'll be picking off 30 passes per year.

Mr. Stiller
05-19-2009, 02:20 PM
How can you make the determination that the NFC North would play a Cover 2?

I just figured that Det/Chi/Minn played some form of the Tampa2 led me to believe that the players involved would likely be best set in one?

Manic Depressant
05-19-2009, 02:28 PM
I just figured that Det/Chi/Minn played some form of the Tampa2 led me to believe that the players involved would likely be best set in one?

The Tampa 2 is a dying breed. Sure, the NFC North teams implement some Cover 2/Tampa 2 concepts into their schemes like all defenses but they definitely aren't "pure" Cover 2/Tampa 2 teams. Those teams are few and far between in today's NFL.

iowatreat54
05-19-2009, 03:24 PM
The Tampa 2 is a dying breed. Sure, the NFC North teams implement some Cover 2/Tampa 2 concepts into their schemes like all defenses but they definitely aren't "pure" Cover 2/Tampa 2 teams. Those teams are few and far between in today's NFL.

Define "pure" Cover/Tampa 2. Because I really don't know what else Chicago plays, or why they keep drafting defensive players that are best fit for that type of defense. At the very least, the great majority of Chicago's defense is made up of it.

Manic Depressant
05-19-2009, 03:27 PM
Define "pure" Cover/Tampa 2. Because I really don't know what else Chicago plays, or why they keep drafting defensive players that are best fit for that type of defense. At the very least, the great majority of Chicago's defense is made up of it.

Well Urlacher and Briggs are certainly not linebackers who are confined to the Cover 2 or Tampa 2 and they are really the only significant players on the NFCN's defense. Guys like Winfield and Woodson are made for man defense anyway.

GB12
05-19-2009, 03:42 PM
because that would make Woodson less effective
Not really. Woodson would still be damn good in a cover 2.

iowatreat54
05-19-2009, 04:15 PM
Well Urlacher and Briggs are certainly not linebackers who are confined to the Cover 2 or Tampa 2 and they are really the only significant players on the NFCN's defense. Guys like Winfield and Woodson are made for man defense anyway.

I'm pretty sure the Bears run exclusively the Tampa 2. Our safeties play a huge part in the passing game, with the corners usually covering specific zones, either short or out.

Idk what Urlacher you are talking about, but Brian Urlacher is a perfect MLB for a cover/tampa 2. He does his best work when dropping into the zone. We use our OLBs to cover short routes with the CBs, with Urlacher sitting to cover the middle that is left void by our safeties covering so much ground. If you watch big passing plays we give up, they are always to the middle, over Urlacher and between the safeties. That is the big weakness in a cover/tampa 2.

Again, I'm not sure what you were referring to, but the Bears pretty much always run a tampa 2 and Urlacher is a perfect MLB for it (idk now that he's getting older, but in his prime he was).

Manic Depressant
05-19-2009, 04:20 PM
I'm pretty sure the Bears run exclusively the Tampa 2. Our safeties play a huge part in the passing game, with the corners usually covering specific zones, either short or out.

Idk what Urlacher you are talking about, but Brian Urlacher is a perfect MLB for a cover/tampa 2. He does his best work when dropping into the zone. We use our OLBs to cover short routes with the CBs, with Urlacher sitting to cover the middle that is left void by our safeties covering so much ground. If you watch big passing plays we give up, they are always to the middle, over Urlacher and between the safeties. That is the big weakness in a cover/tampa 2.

Again, I'm not sure what you were referring to, but the Bears pretty much always run a tampa 2 and Urlacher is a perfect MLB for it (idk now that he's getting older, but in his prime he was).

I was making the point that Urlacher isn't confined to a Cover 2/Tampa 2, not that he isn't a good player in that scheme.

iowatreat54
05-19-2009, 04:27 PM
I was making the point that Urlacher isn't confined to a Cover 2/Tampa 2, not that he isn't a good player in that scheme.

Ah, my mistake, I misread. But still, they may not be confined to it, but they, especially Urlacher, do their best work in it. Also, with the strength of the NFCN's DL, I think it would most likely be the best choice for them to play a Cover 2 scheme. If they did, the safeties would still be a big liability, but the skill/strength we have at corner would be able to make up for it.

SCSteeler
05-19-2009, 06:14 PM
AFCN won right? Polls are closed? and like always, the people are right!
AFCN is too nasty for flashy players to play like their expected. My rookie RBs shoulder (Mendenhall), proves that all it takes is one good Ray Lewis hit to put AP on the ground!
And I understand your love for Cutler; I was so happy to see him leave Denver for Soldier Field, but Big Ben is freakin awesome! And our (Steelers) below-average line did a pretty good job of handling the Williams/Allen trio, so I imagine the AFCN All Pro team Oline could do better.
On paper, C. Johnson and Jennings are scary, but punch them in the mouth and see what happens; we are the AFC North after all...and that's how we do!

Gay Ork Wang
05-19-2009, 07:50 PM
Not really. Woodson would still be damn good in a cover 2.
not saying he wouldnt, but his man coverage is better than his zone isnt it

GB12
05-19-2009, 07:59 PM
AFCN won right? Polls are closed? and like always, the people are right!
No, it isn't. For whatever reason there isn't a close time set on the poll.

There isn't anything saying when it was supposed to close either.

cunit2k9
05-19-2009, 09:33 PM
Nothing but lies.

How? It is true that they threw it a ton.

marshallb
05-19-2009, 09:56 PM
AFCN won right? Polls are closed? and like always, the people are right!
AFCN is too nasty for flashy players to play like their expected. My rookie RBs shoulder (Mendenhall), proves that all it takes is one good Ray Lewis hit to put AP on the ground!
And I understand your love for Cutler; I was so happy to see him leave Denver for Soldier Field, but Big Ben is freakin awesome! And our (Steelers) below-average line did a pretty good job of handling the Williams/Allen trio, so I imagine the AFCN All Pro team Oline could do better.
On paper, C. Johnson and Jennings are scary, but punch them in the mouth and see what happens; we are the AFC North after all...and that's how we do!

When did the Steelers line handle the Williams and Allen? Do you mean in the preseason last year? If so, that is a terrible way to base things on. The last time the two teams played a meaningful game was before Jared Allen was a Viking. Also, polls aren't closed. It was supposed to close at midnight ET last night, but for whatever reason didn't, and I believe the NFC north was ahead at that time.

TitanHope
05-20-2009, 12:49 AM
Tomorrow will be the last day to vote.

Diab said this on the 17th, but if the poll never closes? Diab is running this, and if he keeps his word, technically the NFC North wins as they had the most votes at Midnight. It'd be up to him though.

Most of these have been pushes though, and the championship is no different. It'd be cool to get loser brackets going if we wanted to kill time.

vikes_28
05-20-2009, 02:40 PM
The NFC North has AD and the biggest freak in the NFL...Calvin Johnson.

RAVENS/WIZARDS/ORIOLES
05-20-2009, 02:43 PM
The NFC North has AD and the biggest freak in the NFL...Calvin Johnson.

The AFC has Troy P and Ed Reed if we are naming 2 playmakers.

someone447
05-20-2009, 02:53 PM
The AFC has Troy P and Ed Reed if we are naming 2 playmakers.

I'm sorry, but safeties probably have the smallest effect on the game of any position(other than TE and FB) and this is coming from a former safety.

Crickett
05-20-2009, 03:08 PM
I'm sorry, but safeties probably have the smallest effect on the game of any position(other than TE and FB) and this is coming from a former safety.

Tell that the 2006 Indianapolis Colts defense.

noggin
05-20-2009, 03:46 PM
I'm sorry, but safeties probably have the smallest effect on the game of any position(other than TE and FB) and this is coming from a former safety.Makes for a fun game.

Can anyone name the irrelevant All-Pro Safety who is coincidentally associated with each of these dominant defenses?

(1) 49ers circa 1989
(2) Cowboys circa 1994
(3) Buccaneers circa 2000
(4) Ravens circa 2000 and 2006 (bonus trick question!)
(5) Patriots circa 2003
(6) Steelers circa 2005

no cheating.

Sniper
05-20-2009, 03:57 PM
I'm sorry, but safeties probably have the smallest effect on the game of any position(other than TE and FB) and this is coming from a former safety.

Not if you're a good safety.

djp
05-20-2009, 03:58 PM
The problem with safeties is that they are so close in skill level except for the elite talents like Sanders, Reed, Polamalu, etc.

There's not much different from the 10th best safety to the 30th best safety.

Crickett
05-20-2009, 04:23 PM
The problem with safeties is that they are so close in skill level except for the elite talents like Sanders, Reed, Polamalu, etc.

There's not much different from the 10th best safety to the 30th best safety.

I would dispute there being no difference between the 10th best safety and the 30th best safety. But aside from that, Polamalu and Reed are the safeties in question, and by your own admission, they're on another level.

Bohleive
05-20-2009, 05:18 PM
Makes for a fun game.

Can anyone name the irrelevant All-Pro Safety who is coincidentally associated with each of these dominant defenses?

(1) 49ers circa 1989
(2) Cowboys circa 1994
(3) Buccaneers circa 2000
(4) Ravens circa 2000 and 2006 (bonus trick question!)
(5) Patriots circa 2003
(6) Steelers circa 2005

no cheating.

1. Ronnie Lott
2. Darren Woodson
3. John Lynch
4. Rod Woodson and Ed Reed
5. Rodney Harrison
6. Troy Polumalu

And yes, they have a huge impact. Ask any ravens fan, or colts fan for that matter. Game winning, 50-100+ yd td, int returns are Ed Reed's signature move.

TitanHope
05-20-2009, 05:21 PM
I liked the AFC South safety tandem just as much the AFC North, but that may be more of the homer in me talking.

Reed with the ball in his hands is the best FS in the game, but Griffin in his 2nd year in the league may have been the second-best INT returner at FS (Nick Collins would have been 3rd, so he's a very fine player). But, the thought of Reed supporting the run is worrisome. I dunno if it's age or injury, but he's not physical and wasn't a good tackler last season. I think Griffin adds much more in that category, which helps even it out. Adrian Peterson would probably trample both though... :(

Bob Sanders has more game-changing ability than Polamalu, and just his presence can make the Colts DEF go into Super Saiyan mode (with a Lvl OVER 9,000!!!!!!). Both are in the box SS's, as that's where they're most effective. I think Sanders would have been able to do that with Finnegan/Mathis at CB and Griffin centerfielding at FS. Troy P is best roaming around, which he wouldn't be able to do with those CB's covering those WR's - he'd have to drop back into coverage.

Safety is my favorite position, and they affect games. But, I think the NFCN offense could take them away from what they do best with matchups.

Donno
05-20-2009, 05:26 PM
NFC North has a very solid defense, the front 7 would be just scary and their offense doesn't look too bad either.

LonghornsLegend
05-20-2009, 05:42 PM
So we still don't know who won this officially yet?

diabsoule
05-20-2009, 06:02 PM
So we still don't know who won this officially yet?

The NFC North officially won this. Although the poll is an indefinite poll the cutoff for voting was Monday at midnight Central. At that moment the NFC North was winning by 2 votes.

Personally, I don't think their team was the strongest but SWDC has spoken and the NFC North did in fact win, although by the slightest of margins.

CC.SD
05-20-2009, 06:27 PM
The NFC North officially won this. Although the poll is an indefinite poll the cutoff for voting was Monday at midnight Central. At that moment the NFC North was winning by 2 votes.

Personally, I don't think their team was the strongest but SWDC has spoken and the NFC North did in fact win, although by the slightest of margins.

It is not just SWDC that has spoken.

http://i361.photobucket.com/albums/oo60/CCSDphotos_2008/cjjordy.jpg

TitanHope
05-20-2009, 07:43 PM
All of these divisional teams were so beastly. There really isn't a wrong answer because the reality is that any of these teams could have beaten one another on any given Sunday.

Again, thanks for organizing this again Diab! You did a helluva job mate!

someone447
05-20-2009, 10:56 PM
Not if you're a good safety.

I'm not saying safeties are worthless, but I am saying that they are the least important position on the defense, I may say the safety positions are more important than sam backer, but SLB, FS, and SS are 9,10, and 11.

What I am saying is if you put trade the 32nd best starting safety for the best starting safety, the defense wouldn't improve as much as if you did the same for any other position(save maybe SLB.)

Crickett
05-20-2009, 11:23 PM
What I am saying is if you put trade the 32nd best starting safety for the best starting safety, the defense wouldn't improve as much as if you did the same for any other position(save maybe SLB.)

And what I'm saying is, "that's laughable".

I'm pretty sure I was also saying that Bob Sanders returning to the Colts defense from injury in 2006 was what turned the 21st ranked regular season defense into the #1 ranked post season defense the year the Colts won the Superbowl.

If you want, I'll go through this team by team asking "what would adding Ed Reed or Troy Polamalu do for this defense?"

someone447
05-21-2009, 09:36 AM
And what I'm saying is, "that's laughable".

I'm pretty sure I was also saying that Bob Sanders returning to the Colts defense from injury in 2006 was what turned the 21st ranked regular season defense into the #1 ranked post season defense the year the Colts won the Superbowl.

If you want, I'll go through this team by team asking "what would adding Ed Reed or Troy Polamalu do for this defense?"

I'm not saying safeties can't make a big difference, what I am saying is it would do less than adding Haynsworth, Mario Williams, Asomugha(or however you spell it.), Willis, etc.

diabsoule
05-21-2009, 09:51 AM
All of these divisional teams were so beastly. There really isn't a wrong answer because the reality is that any of these teams could have beaten one another on any given Sunday.

Again, thanks for organizing this again Diab! You did a helluva job mate!

No problem. I had a fun job doing it. I know some people complained about who was in their starting 11 on either O or D but it's impossible to satisfy everyone and in the end it came down to who I thought was the best player. I tried noting different individuals when I did the "notable reserves" for each team.

In the end, though, I was satisfied with the results and I'm glad everyone enjoyed it. Although it pains me to say this, I think the weakest team that took the field was the NFC South All-Pro team.

RAVENS/WIZARDS/ORIOLES
05-21-2009, 09:52 AM
I'm not saying safeties can't make a big difference, what I am saying is it would do less than adding Haynsworth, Mario Williams, Asomugha(or however you spell it.), Willis, etc.

So Mario Williams has a bigger impact in a game than Ed Reed, Bob Sanders, and Troy P???

someone447
05-21-2009, 09:56 AM
So Mario Williams has a bigger impact in a game than Ed Reed, Bob Sanders, and Troy P???

In a typical game I would say yes. Having an elite pass rusher is one of the most important positions in the game. There is a reason safeties aren't typically taken in the top 10.

All this is coming from a former safety, and it pains me to say it.

diabsoule
05-21-2009, 10:30 AM
One thing I did notice when assembling these Divisnion All-Star teams is the weaknesses most divisions have at a certain spot on the field:

AFC EAST – One of the most balanced teams. Average running backs across the board.
Weakest position: Tight Ends

AFC NORTH – One of the strongest defensive units assembled. Aged wide receivers and underwhelming running backs.
Weakest position: Cornerbacks

AFC SOUTH – One of, if not, the most explosive and talented offensive groups assembled. Strong secondary. Running back is solid, though unspectacular.
Weakest position: Defensive Line

AFC WEST – Very young and talented offense with arguably one of the best CB tandems.
Weakest position: Safety

NFC EAST - Absolutely fantastic pass rush. Very strong defensive unit with the weakest position being linebacker. Very solid offense, although unspectacular.
Weakest position: Wide Receiver

NFC NORTH – Solid all the way around with a very young, explosive offense. Beastly defensive line.
Weakest position: Safety

NFC SOUTH – Explosive offense with a decent pass rush on defense. Cornerback's are young but not deep.
Weakest position: Defensive Line

NFC WEST – Their skill positions are some of, if not, the best in the NFL. Just a solid OL & DL.
Weakest position: Offensive Line (could have easily been DL)

noggin
05-21-2009, 11:15 AM
I'm not saying safeties can't make a big difference, what I am saying is it would do less than adding Haynsworth, Mario Williams, Asomugha(or however you spell it.), Willis, etc.I'd take an elite DT or pass rusher over a great safety, but not a CB or a 4-3 LB/3-4 ILB.

A great safety just has too much impact on too many plays.

GB12
05-21-2009, 02:59 PM
So Mario Williams has a bigger impact in a game than Ed Reed, Bob Sanders, and Troy P???
Holy crap are you serious with that? Yes. Absolutely yes. It's not even close.

BmoreBlackByrdz
05-21-2009, 04:05 PM
It actually is pretty close.

A Perfect Score
05-21-2009, 04:33 PM
Last year, in the final 6 games of the season, Ed Reed had 8 INTs, and added 2 more in the first round of the playoffs, which went back for a TD. So in 7 games, he had 10 INTs. Thats 10 changes of possession. 10 huge changes of momentum. I think adding that to ANY defense makes it infinitely better. But maybe thats just me. Ed Reed has as much impact on our defense as any player on our team. Saying that he has less of an impact on the game then pass rushers or DTs isnt all that aaccurate IMO.

RAVENS/WIZARDS/ORIOLES
05-21-2009, 04:41 PM
Last year, in the final 6 games of the season, Ed Reed had 8 INTs, and added 2 more in the first round of the playoffs, which went back for a TD. So in 7 games, he had 10 INTs. Thats 10 changes of possession. 10 huge changes of momentum. I think adding that to ANY defense makes it infinitely better. But maybe thats just me. Ed Reed has as much impact on our defense as any player on our team. Saying that he has less of an impact on the game then pass rushers or DTs isnt all that aaccurate IMO.

What he said ^^^^^^^^^^

Crickett
05-21-2009, 04:47 PM
Mario Williams had 12 sacks and 4 forced fumbles.
Ed Reed had 1 sack, 16 pass defenses, 1 forced fumble, 9 interceptions, 2 of which were pick-sixes.

11 additional sacks vs. 6 additional turnovers. Which is more important?

Now, I'm not saying Mario Williams is irrelevant, but to say that the #32 safety (whoever you think is the 32nd best safety in the nfl) is as good as a defensive player of the year like Sanders was and Reed was to me, is as crazy as saying that the 32nd best defensive end is as good as Jared Allen or Justin Tuck or Julius Peppers or a healthy John Abraham.

Mr. Stiller
05-21-2009, 05:03 PM
Mario Williams had 12 sacks and 4 forced fumbles.
Ed Reed had 1 sack, 16 pass defenses, 1 forced fumble, 9 interceptions, 2 of which were pick-sixes.

11 additional sacks vs. 6 additional turnovers. Which is more important?

Now, I'm not saying Mario Williams is irrelevant, but to say that the #32 safety (whoever you think is the 32nd best safety in the nfl) is as good as a defensive player of the year like Sanders was and Reed was to me, is as crazy as saying that the 32nd best defensive end is as good as Jared Allen or Justin Tuck or Julius Peppers or a healthy John Abraham.

Ok.. I'm going to ask a few questions.

Williams Has +11 sacks. Gotcha.

Reed only has "6 additional turnovers"? Were all of those forced fumbles recovered by his team? Because if thats the case he could have 5-9.

The opposition could argue..

"Sure Mario Williams has 11 more sacks, but Ed Reed put up 12 points to help us win/seal a game, not to mention he broke up an additional 16 plays that could have resulted in a loss".

I could care less for the argument, but just saying.

Gay Ork Wang
05-21-2009, 06:00 PM
if it wasnt for the pass rush most of the times would a safety or Corner for that matter get to the chance to make those plays? i mean if the QB can hold on to the ball forever, is he really gonna make all those mistakes? even the best cover corner wouldnt be able to mark a WR forever

Crickett
05-21-2009, 06:22 PM
if it wasnt for the pass rush most of the times would a safety or Corner for that matter get to the chance to make those plays? i mean if the QB can hold on to the ball forever, is he really gonna make all those mistakes? even the best cover corner wouldnt be able to mark a WR forever

You're generalizing having Ed Reed vs. Mario Williams into having a good pass rush vs. having a good secondary.

A Perfect Score
05-21-2009, 07:00 PM
if it wasnt for the pass rush most of the times would a safety or Corner for that matter get to the chance to make those plays? i mean if the QB can hold on to the ball forever, is he really gonna make all those mistakes? even the best cover corner wouldnt be able to mark a WR forever

That works both ways...if a team has a ****** secondary and cant cover, then it doesnt matter how good the pass rush is because the QB will get the ball out immediately...there is only so fast you can get to the QB...so its a reciprocal relationship. But that isnt even what we were talking about. We were talking about the impact of safeties on a game, and their importance.

CC.SD
05-21-2009, 07:15 PM
So Mario Williams has a bigger impact in a game than Ed Reed, Bob Sanders, and Troy P???

Yah I would say so, by virtue of position mostly.

BmoreBlackByrdz
05-21-2009, 07:55 PM
Safeties make more "impact" plays than d-linemen. Ints, sacks, forced and recovering fumbles,big hits, and the threat to score whenever the balls in there hands. Not trying to take anything away from DE's but safeties make more "impact" plays.

PACKmanN
05-21-2009, 08:19 PM
Last year, in the final 6 games of the season, Ed Reed had 8 INTs, and added 2 more in the first round of the playoffs, which went back for a TD. So in 7 games, he had 10 INTs. Thats 10 changes of possession. 10 huge changes of momentum. I think adding that to ANY defense makes it infinitely better. But maybe thats just me. Ed Reed has as much impact on our defense as any player on our team. Saying that he has less of an impact on the game then pass rushers or DTs isnt all that aaccurate IMO.

can you determine if there was pressure on the qb before the throws that were picked off? getting pressure on qbs leads to bad throws which leads to INTs. You can have anyone back there, the front 7 determines how well a defense plays.

diabsoule
05-21-2009, 08:58 PM
if it wasnt for the pass rush most of the times would a safety or Corner for that matter get to the chance to make those plays? i mean if the QB can hold on to the ball forever, is he really gonna make all those mistakes? even the best cover corner wouldnt be able to mark a WR forever

Want to talk pass rush? Look no further than the NFC East team that was assembled. Justin Tuck, Albert Haynesworth, Broderick Bunkley, and Osi with DeMarcus Ware at LB and Trent Cole coming in off the bench.

And that with LaRon Landry roaming around in the secondary. Not to mention Sheldon Brown, Asante Samuel, Corey Webster, and Terrance Newman.

If the Giants pass rush alone made Tom Brady(!) make bad throws imagine what adding Haynesworth, Bunkley, Cole, and Ware could do to Jay Cutler. Just saying.

GB12
05-21-2009, 09:02 PM
Going back to this post
So Mario Williams has a bigger impact in a game than Ed Reed, Bob Sanders, and Troy P???
What do those three safeties all have in common? Great pass rushers. Sanders has Freeney and Mathis, and the other two have their LBs. Not saying that those three aren't much better than most other safeties, but without the great pass rush they benefit from they don't make half of those impact plays you guys are talking about.

A Perfect Score
05-21-2009, 09:25 PM
can you determine if there was pressure on the qb before the throws that were picked off? getting pressure on qbs leads to bad throws which leads to INTs. You can have anyone back there, the front 7 determines how well a defense plays.

Really? Well, what about all those Corners and Safeties who make a great pick by jumping a route, baiting the QB into a bad throw (Ed Reed is known for this around the league) and so on and so forth? You cant say the front 7 dictates how a defense plays. If that was the case, there would be no secondary at all. Ill tell you what, name the worst starting corners and safeties in the league. The absolute worst. Put them on a team with even the best pass rush, and the QB is still going to pick that D apart. There is only so fast you can get to the QB. Its a team game. An extraordinary player at safety has just as big of an impact as an extraordinary player anywhere else. Ask all those QBs Ed Reed baited into throwing picks. Or all those people Sean Taylor de-cleated.

RAVENS/WIZARDS/ORIOLES
05-21-2009, 09:29 PM
I think that the defense starts in the trenches and in some cases depending on the person someone on the line can have a bigger impact but to say Mario Williams has a bigger impact on a game over Reed is ridiculous.

coordinator0
05-21-2009, 09:38 PM
Going back to this post

What do those three safeties all have in common? Great pass rushers. Sanders has Freeney and Mathis, and the other two have their LBs. Not saying that those three aren't much better than most other safeties, but without the great pass rush they benefit from they don't make half of those impact plays you guys are talking about.

I wouldn't call the Ravens pass-rush last season particularly good. In fact the only one that was consistent was Suggs and he had under 10 sacks himself. You could also make the argument that the reason the pass-rushers are so good is because the secondary gives them time to get to the QB. I kind of see this as a circular argument.

PACKmanN
05-21-2009, 09:52 PM
Really? Well, what about all those Corners and Safeties who make a great pick by jumping a route, baiting the QB into a bad throw (Ed Reed is known for this around the league) and so on and so forth? You cant say the front 7 dictates how a defense plays. If that was the case, there would be no secondary at all. Ill tell you what, name the worst starting corners and safeties in the league. The absolute worst. Put them on a team with even the best pass rush, and the QB is still going to pick that D apart. There is only so fast you can get to the QB. Its a team game. An extraordinary player at safety has just as big of an impact as an extraordinary player anywhere else. Ask all those QBs Ed Reed baited into throwing picks. Or all those people Sean Taylor de-cleated.

really? i know first hand, in 2005 and 2008, the Packers had a top 5 pass defense, we also had a top 10 pick in both those years.

Look at what the Ravens did this past year with only Reed as a solid DB on the roster. Look at the Cards, and Steelers. Each of those teams don't have a dominate secondary, but had a solid pass rush from their front 7.

diabsoule
05-21-2009, 10:03 PM
really? i know first hand, in 2005 and 2008, the Packers had a top 5 pass defense, we also had a top 10 pick in both those years.

Look at what the Ravens did this past year with only Reed as a solid DB on the roster. Look at the Cards, and Steelers. Each of those teams don't have a dominate secondary, but had a solid pass rush from their front 7.

And what do those 3 teams have in common? 3 of the best safeties in the league in Ed Reed, Troy Polamalu, and Adrian Wilson.

And if I recall those 3 teams all made the playoffs, 2 went to the SB, and 1 won it.

RAVENS/WIZARDS/ORIOLES
05-21-2009, 10:11 PM
Average Safeties don't do this
f4Bmjh7mXvU&feature=related

Crickett
05-21-2009, 10:14 PM
No, average safeties do this.

4sxkXH6gZ08

He's your problem now Cleveland.

Hines
05-21-2009, 10:17 PM
Average Safeties don't do this
f4Bmjh7mXvU&feature=related


That's average compared to Troy's one handed, finger-tip interception.

RAVENS/WIZARDS/ORIOLES
05-21-2009, 10:18 PM
That's average compared to Troy's one handed, finger-tip interception.

Right because a one handed pick is better than the longest pick for a TD in the history of football.

Hines
05-21-2009, 10:19 PM
Right because a one handed pick is better than the longest pick for a TD in the history of football.

Right because a finger tip catch is very, very easy.

PACKmanN
05-21-2009, 10:21 PM
And what do those 3 teams have in common? 3 of the best safeties in the league in Ed Reed, Troy Polamalu, and Adrian Wilson.

And if I recall those 3 teams all made the playoffs, 2 went to the SB, and 1 won it.

yeah, but they are teams that have a dominate front 7, which allows their star Safety to roam around. In order for them to get those turnovers is for the qb to feel pressure, and each of those teams have players that are known for getting to the qb.

RAVENS/WIZARDS/ORIOLES
05-21-2009, 10:23 PM
Right because a finger tip catch is very, very easy.

Hey I didn't say it was easy but interception for a td that goes 108yards is probably a little harder. It is not like he had a clear lane to the endzone.

Hines
05-21-2009, 10:23 PM
yeah, but they are teams that have a dominate front 7, which allows their star Safety to roam around. In order for them to get those turnovers is for the qb to feel pressure, and each of those teams have players that are known for getting to the qb.

I wouldn't call the Cards front 7 dominate, but it's pretty solid.

Crickett
05-21-2009, 10:29 PM
yeah, but they are teams that have a dominate front 7, which allows their star Safety to roam around.

Yes, having a dominant front 7 is more important than having 1 great safety.

RAVENS/WIZARDS/ORIOLES
05-21-2009, 10:30 PM
Yes, having a dominant front 7 is more important than having 1 great safety.

Yes I agree but Mario Williams does not have as much of an impact on a game as Ed Reed

Boston
05-21-2009, 10:42 PM
Yes I agree but Mario Williams does not have as much of an impact on a game as Ed Reed

Ha. You sound like a SportsCenter anchor... You do realize that Mario Williams has the ability to disrupt the offensive flow on every play of the game, rather than just passing plays, don't you?

Crickett
05-21-2009, 10:45 PM
Ha. You sound like a SportsCenter anchor... You do realize that Mario Williams has the ability to disrupt the offensive flow on every play of the game, rather than just passing plays, don't you?

Yes, because Ed Reed has never tackled a running back ever.

Boston
05-21-2009, 10:48 PM
Yes, because Ed Reed has never tackled a running back ever.

Last time I checked players like Ed Reed don't make a living patrolling the box... But, if you want to call a tackle 5-10 yards past the LOS an impact play, be my guest.

Now, everybody knows Reed is one of the best safeties in the league, and can completely change the complexion of a game with one interception, but he doesn't do this on a consistent basis. A good DE like Mario Williams can completely shut down an offense, assuming he has at least a somewhat competent cast surrounding him. There's really no contest here.

LonghornsLegend
05-21-2009, 10:49 PM
My bad, I thought we were trying to figure out who would win in a hard fought game. All imaginary.

I didn't know it was solely focusing on hype, intangibles and fantasy #'s.

I don't doubt Johnson/Jennings would have success. But at the same time, my point is still Valid.

Mason/Ward have made a heck of a career exploiting Zone defenses and the NFCN is a cover2 based defense.

Dude, your trying to hype up two past their prime WR's well over 30, who are possession WR's with no breakaway speed.


Yet you want to compare then to two WR's who can score from anywhere on the field, and are a mis-match no matter who is trying to cover them? Ok. You take your WR's exploiting zone coverages for 6 yard gains, I'll take the two WR's who can score on a 2 yard slant route.


Yes I know Polamalu is back there, he was back there when Fitzgerald was running crazy down the middle in the Super Bowl too...Do you really think a few dink and dunk receptions from Mason and Hines Ward makes as big of a difference in a game as Calvin and Jennings would?


It's obvious what side your on, but that's not a point you should even be trying to argue, or bring up like it helps your cause.

Hines
05-21-2009, 10:52 PM
Dude, your trying to hype up two past their prime WR's well over 30, who are possession WR's with no breakaway speed.


Yet you want to compare then to two WR's who can score from anywhere on the field, and are a mis-match no matter who is trying to cover them? Ok. You take your WR's exploiting zone coverages for 6 yard gains, I'll take the two WR's who can score on a 2 yard slant route.


Yes I know Polamalu is back there, he was back there when Fitzgerald was running crazy down the middle in the Super Bowl too...Do you really think a few dink and dunk receptions from Mason and Heinz Ward makes as big of a difference in a game as Calvin and Jennings would?


It's obvious what side your on, but that's not a point you should even be trying to argue, or bring up like it helps your cause.


I know this has nothing to do with your arguement, but it drives me crazy when people spell Hines Ward, Heinz Ward. He isn't no damn ketchup or mustard.

Don't want to sound like a dick, but I have seen it quite a few times on this site.

LonghornsLegend
05-21-2009, 10:53 PM
Wasn't thinking, Heinz always pops into my head, isn't it called 'Heinz field' also? I do that not knowing alot.

Hines
05-21-2009, 10:55 PM
Wasn't thinking, Heinz always pops into my head, isn't it called 'Heinz field' also? I do that not knowing alot.

It's all good, it just bothers me. Yes, it is called Heinz Field. When you think of Hines Ward, you can always think of me to get his name right.

PS, I know that sounded ***.

Bengalsrocket
05-22-2009, 12:18 AM
Last time I checked players like Ed Reed don't make a living patrolling the box... But, if you want to call a tackle 5-10 yards past the LOS an impact play, be my guest.

Now, everybody knows Reed is one of the best safeties in the league, and can completely change the complexion of a game with one interception, but he doesn't do this on a consistent basis. A good DE like Mario Williams can completely shut down an offense, assuming he has at least a somewhat competent cast surrounding him. There's really no contest here.


Is this a joke? Ed Reed changes both aspects of an opposing offense. You don't think teams shy away from throwing the ball when they play Baltimore?

If I'm an offensive coordinator or a head coach, my game plan is to run the ball against Baltimore. I'd rather go against an aging Ray Lewis than an Ed Reed in the prime of his career. This then allows Baltimore to stack the box or just flat out focus on stopping the run with their front 7.

Gay Ork Wang
05-22-2009, 03:31 AM
Want to talk pass rush? Look no further than the NFC East team that was assembled. Justin Tuck, Albert Haynesworth, Broderick Bunkley, and Osi with DeMarcus Ware at LB and Trent Cole coming in off the bench.

And that with LaRon Landry roaming around in the secondary. Not to mention Sheldon Brown, Asante Samuel, Corey Webster, and Terrance Newman.

If the Giants pass rush alone made Tom Brady(!) make bad throws imagine what adding Haynesworth, Bunkley, Cole, and Ware could do to Jay Cutler. Just saying.
I voted for the NFC North because im a homer ;)

terribletowel39
05-22-2009, 08:46 AM
Is this a joke? Ed Reed changes both aspects of an opposing offense. You don't think teams shy away from throwing the ball when they play Baltimore?

If I'm an offensive coordinator or a head coach, my game plan is to run the ball against Baltimore. I'd rather go against an aging Ray Lewis than an Ed Reed in the prime of his career. This then allows Baltimore to stack the box or just flat out focus on stopping the run with their front 7.
Sorry, this is not right.

Ed Reed or not, Baltimores strength on defense is stopping the run. You gameplan to pass against Baltimore. Obviously you don't abandon the run completely but you definitely aren't going into the game planning to run more than pass. Ed Reed is really the only individual in that secondary unit that is scary. You pass before you run. Baltimore is the 2nd or 3rd best run defense in the league, you don't test that. Throw away from Reed if you are too scared.

I am a fan for a team that obviously has a good safety. And I am stradling the line with this discussion. Mario Williams?? There is not a safety that makes a bigger impact. That goes for several DE's in the game. But I would say there are 3-4 safeties that make more of an impact than MOST of the DE's in the game. After your top 7-10 DE's, I would argue Reed, Polamalu, Wilson, and maybe Griffin/Landry make more of an impact than the back 20 DE's.

Not sure if that made sense, but yes.

PACKmanN
05-22-2009, 09:02 AM
Is this a joke? Ed Reed changes both aspects of an opposing offense. You don't think teams shy away from throwing the ball when they play Baltimore?

If I'm an offensive coordinator or a head coach, my game plan is to run the ball against Baltimore. I'd rather go against an aging Ray Lewis than an Ed Reed in the prime of his career. This then allows Baltimore to stack the box or just flat out focus on stopping the run with their front 7.

so you would rather attack a front 7 of Pyrce, Kelly, Ngata, Lewis, and Suggs? instead of Washginton, Foxworth, Rolle, Landry, and Reed? The Ravens don't need to stack the box for anything, they already have a dominate d-line, it allows them to drop guys back in coverage.

is that a joke...

awfullyquiet
05-22-2009, 10:24 AM
i like how this all hinges on the front 7...

need i remind you that minnesota has allowed the least amount of running yards per game when the williams are both in the line up than any team in the nfl over the past few years...

what does that do? put it all on the skill players, ben and the wideouts to make the difference.

RAVENS/WIZARDS/ORIOLES
05-22-2009, 10:29 AM
so you would rather attack a front 7 of Pyrce, Kelly, Ngata, Lewis, and Suggs? instead of Washginton, Foxworth, Rolle, Landry, and Reed? The Ravens don't need to stack the box for anything, they already have a dominate d-line, it allows them to drop guys back in coverage.

is that a joke...

I just want to type what you did...........Pryce,Gregg,Ngata,Lewis,Suggs....... ......AHHHH I love it

Hines
05-22-2009, 12:16 PM
A great safety is key, but if the Steelers didn't have Aaron Smith, they would suck with or without Polamalu.

PACKmanN
05-22-2009, 01:15 PM
i like how this all hinges on the front 7...

need i remind you that minnesota has allowed the least amount of running yards per game when the williams are both in the line up than any team in the nfl over the past few years...

what does that do? put it all on the skill players, ben and the wideouts to make the difference.and one of the worst secondary in the NFL over the past few years...yet they mange to maintain a very solid defense and went to the Playoffs last year.

BmoreBlackByrdz
05-22-2009, 02:20 PM
A great safety is key, but if the Steelers didn't have Aaron Smith, they would suck with or without Polamalu.

VERY true, Aaron Smith is one of the most underrated players in the league.

tjsunstein
05-22-2009, 02:27 PM
I think the NFC North offense could do some work against that defense.

vikes_28
05-22-2009, 03:17 PM
AP ftw. NFC North ftw.