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parrish_lemar24DBSkins
05-18-2009, 10:27 PM
I didn't get a chance to see that many 49er games the last few years, but I was shocked when Vernon Davis didn't blow up in the league the last 3 years.
In college, he was a scary player; faster than all the WRs, ( except DHB!!), and when he caught the ball, it took at least 4 guys to bring him down. Coach Friegen used to tell him it's no shame to go down when 4 or five guys are trying to tackle you, to prevent being injured, but Davis wasn't having it.

Now, I realize in SF he had Alex Smith throwing him the ball most the time, but a TE is usually a safety valve for a young QB, and I can't believe Davis had trouble getting open in coverage, and I can't imagine he was double-teamed much since he hasn't proven he's a threat in the passing game.

SO for those who have seen him play more than 2 games, is Davis overrated, still has potential, or a bust in the making?

iBoldin
05-18-2009, 10:31 PM
He has potential, but I'm just not sure he'll ever realize it, or ever fulfill it.

The man has amazing physical abilities and is a wide receiver in a tight ends body, but Mike Martz had him primarily blocking, while Delani Walker seemed to be more of a pass catching option last year. And with the 49ers moving to more a power running scheme, I don't know if Davis will ever get the catches he needs to make an impact. Especially with Crabtree, Morgan, and company outside too.

I guess time will tell.

Geo
05-18-2009, 10:43 PM
Him living up to his potential is one thing, there's also the Pro Bowl politics. The other guys in the conference.

As long as Witten remains productive, the star on his helmet will get him voted in. Chris Cooley is a Pro Bowl TE. And now Kellen Winslow is in Tampa. Jeremy Shockey has a year under his belt and might be as healthy as he can be, if he puts up really good numbers he could very well get the nod.

Davis needs a breakout season to help him get the cred for next year, maybe. But him being very productive and effective in and of itself is more important than the Pro Bowl nod. If he plays well, you'd hope that sort of thing works itself out and recognition deserved is obtained, although it hasn't yet with Dallas Clark of the Colts.

the decider13
05-18-2009, 10:43 PM
His physical potential is unmatched....but he needs to get some better work ethic and a better attitude to make something of himself in the league. There are plenty of athletes out there that will actually work hard.

CC.SD
05-18-2009, 11:11 PM
I hear that as a rookie he was better than Antonio Gates.

GB12
05-18-2009, 11:18 PM
He won't be anything better than average.

WMD
05-18-2009, 11:23 PM
Not on the Niners. I could see him catching on somewhere else though..

BUSTKUNTLAWL
05-18-2009, 11:37 PM
I remember when he came out of Maryland everyone was worried about whether or not he could block. Well.. He certainly can do that.

If you were to tell me he would be this kind of blocker this early in his career I would have said he's the best TE in the game. I have no idea what the problem is in San Francisco, but someone deserves some blame on that coaching staff.

I don't get to see too many Niner games, but he's being under utilized and not coached good enough, clearly. I refuse to believe it's his work ethic, because he went from not understanding how to block to being a complete monster.

He's either going to need a new team to fill his potential or he's going to get it done this year under Singletary. We will see.

I'm still buying the potential. Call me delusional if you may..

Cicero
05-18-2009, 11:38 PM
John Carlson will go to a pro bowl before Vernon Davis.

Ness
05-18-2009, 11:52 PM
John Carlson will go to a pro bowl before Vernon Davis.

It would be because of Matt Hasselbeck, not because Carlson is necessarily a better tight end. Not to take anything away from Carlson, he's a good player. I just don't think he's head over heels better than Vernon Davis.

Really, Davis has been a victim of under-utilization and poor quarterback play his entire tenure in San Francisco. When he's given the opportunity to shine, he has shown he has the power to dominate. He does have his issues though. There have been reports of him being a prima donna type, and his hands aren't that great. But he can be a gamebreaker in this league. If he were on a team with a much stable quarterback situation, I'm sure he would have already made a Pro Bowl easily.

He's a little bit slimmer in training camp now and by the looks of what has been said and heart, Jimmy Raye does plan to use him more in the offense as a pass catching target and not just a blocker like Martz did. Shaun Hill has provided pretty decent quarterback play thus far, so that helps. If Hill is the starter and plays like he did last season for the eight games he started, then Davis may finally have a breakout season. It might be a little difficult though still since Morgan, Bruce, and Crabtree could take away looks from Davis' way.

CC.SD
05-19-2009, 12:02 AM
He's a little bit slimmer in training camp now and by the looks of what has been said and heart, Jimmy Raye does plan to use him more in the offense as a pass catching target and not just a blocker like Martz did. Shaun Hill has provided pretty decent quarterback play thus far, so that helps. If Hill is the starter and plays like he did last season for the eight games he started, then Davis may finally have a breakout season. It might be a little difficult though still since Morgan, Bruce, and Crabtree could take away looks from Davis' way.

You know you look at the kind of firepower the 9ers can bring to the table (I have big respect for Josh Morgan, and obviously Bruce, Crabtree, Davis and Gore are in there too.) and you have to wonder why they have such trust in Shaun Hill. The guy might pan out, but seriously they needed to try a little harder to bring somebody in.

GB12
05-19-2009, 12:03 AM
It would be because of Matt Hasselbeck, not because Carlson is necessarily a better tight end.
What?

Matt Hasselbeck only played in 7 games last year. Only 1 of Carlson's 5 TDs was from Hasselbeck, the other 4 were from Seneca Wallace and Charlie Frye.

Not sure why you're bringing up QB play. John Carlson put up better numbers as a rookie than Vernon Davis ever has with not much better of a QB.

d34ng3l021
05-19-2009, 12:09 AM
Him living up to his potential is one thing, there's also the Pro Bowl politics. The other guys in the conference.

As long as Witten remains productive, the star on his helmet will get him voted in. Chris Cooley is a Pro Bowl TE. And now Kellen Winslow is in Tampa. Jeremy Shockey has a year under his belt and might be as healthy as he can be, if he puts up really good numbers he could very well get the nod.

Davis needs a breakout season to help him get the cred for next year, maybe. But him being very productive and effective in and of itself is more important than the Pro Bowl nod. If he plays well, you'd hope that sort of thing works itself out and recognition deserved is obtained, although it hasn't yet with Dallas Clark of the Colts.

The NFC has these tight ends:

Tony Gonzalez (how could you forget :(), Jason Witten, Kellen Winslow, Chris Cooley, Jeremy Shockey, John Carlson, Vernon Davis, Greg Olsen, and Brandon Pettigrew.

Damn thats loaded.

Menardo75
05-19-2009, 12:17 AM
Vernon has struggled with injures his whole carrer until this season, and sadly it was the one season that the TE is not featured at all in the passing game. He is a tremendous blocker, and a much improved receiver. He had a terrific second half of the year last year and was even a pro bowl alternate. If he stays healthy this year he has no excuse not to do well since now he is back in an offense of which he is a perfect fit for.

CC.SD
05-19-2009, 12:25 AM
Here is why Vernon is not that great of a TE yet:

http://www.tubapants.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/06/trex.jpg

Mr. Stiller
05-19-2009, 12:26 AM
I have a question then.

With Gonzo and Winslow out of the conference, is this the year Heath Miller could make the Pro-Bowl?

CC.SD
05-19-2009, 12:27 AM
I have a question then.

With Gonzo and Winslow out of the conference, is this the year Heath Miller could make the Pro-Bowl?

Unless Zach Miller continues to shoulder the brunt of the Raiders' passing game. It will definitely be a guy named Miller.

Mr. Stiller
05-19-2009, 12:31 AM
Unless Zach Miller continues to shoulder the brunt of the Raiders' passing game. It will definitely be a guy named Miller.

They take 3 right?

I understand it's mostly receiving stats (I almost hope Miller doesn't make it because it's a contract year but..)

Gonzalez, Winslow, Gates I believe was the starting trio last year.


Gonzo/Winslow moved to NFC..

Gates, Daniels, Miller, Keller, Scheffler?

XxXdragonXxX
05-19-2009, 12:36 AM
It would be because of Matt Hasselbeck, not because Carlson is necessarily a better tight end. Not to take anything away from Carlson, he's a good player. I just don't think he's head over heels better than Vernon Davis.



Huh?

Carlson had Seneca Wallace throwing to him for 8 games last year, and he was 9th in the NFL in yards by TE's with 627...Davis was 26th with 358. Carlson's rookie year was better than any season Davis has had.

CC.SD
05-19-2009, 12:37 AM
They take 3 right?

I understand it's mostly receiving stats (I almost hope Miller doesn't make it because it's a contract year but..)

Gonzalez, Winslow, Gates I believe was the starting trio last year.


Gonzo/Winslow moved to NFC..

Gates, Daniels, Miller, Keller, Scheffler?

Nope they only take two, Winslow twiddled his thumbs. Daniels won't make it he is not that well regarded for some reason, I can't figure out why myself. Scheffler, well his TE game isn't complete, but that's never stopped the voters before so who knows. I think it will definitely be a Miller opposite Gates. Heath deserves it and Zach will probably have production on his side. Interesting race.

Bengalsrocket
05-19-2009, 12:43 AM
Gates, Daniels, Miller, Keller, Scheffler?

Dallas Clark, Owen Daniels, Antonio Gates, Dustin Keller, Zach Miller would be my top 5.

How Scheffler makes yours top 5 confuses me. He was 11th in receptions & 6th in yards for AFC Tight Ends. Also, his situation seemingly got worse (Cutler gone, Moreno picked up to take snaps away from the entire Broncos receiving corp.).

Anyways, Vernon Davis seems a bit immature, but I'm sure at some point in his future he mature enough to do some good for a team. Hopefully for the 49ers it happens soon.

CashmoneyDrew
05-19-2009, 12:44 AM
They take 3 right?

I understand it's mostly receiving stats (I almost hope Miller doesn't make it because it's a contract year but..)

Gonzalez, Winslow, Gates I believe was the starting trio last year.


Gonzo/Winslow moved to NFC..

Gates, Daniels, Miller, Keller, Scheffler?

Bo Scaife was really good last year and could push for a spot in the pro bowl this year if he puts up similar numbers even though I don't expect him to with all the new firepower the Titans have.

Oh and the probowl only takes two tight ends per team.

CC.SD
05-19-2009, 12:55 AM
Dallas Clark probably ends the discussion, in retrospect. It's time.

Saints-Tigers
05-19-2009, 02:10 AM
I remember when he came out of Maryland everyone was worried about whether or not he could block. Well.. He certainly can do that.

If you were to tell me he would be this kind of blocker this early in his career I would have said he's the best TE in the game. I have no idea what the problem is in San Francisco, but someone deserves some blame on that coaching staff.

I don't get to see too many Niner games, but he's being under utilized and not coached good enough, clearly. I refuse to believe it's his work ethic, because he went from not understanding how to block to being a complete monster.

He's either going to need a new team to fill his potential or he's going to get it done this year under Singletary. We will see.

I'm still buying the potential. Call me delusional if you may..

I'm with this, it's not as if he is just a pure workout warrior, the guy was a heck of a player in college, and he developed his college weakness into a huge strength.

Paranoidmoonduck
05-19-2009, 02:47 AM
For all his athleticism, Davis just isn't a particularly smooth athlete and it shows in the passing game. He doesn't position his body very well and he doesn't catch the ball very well. However, if I had to make a list of the best blocking tight-ends in the league, he would place very near the top. Certainly, it doesn't justify his draft selection spot or his contract, and he's not a Pro-Bowl caliber player, but he's a solid player with some more room to grow (just not as much as some originally thought).

Arsenal
05-19-2009, 03:15 AM
I don't get why people say he has a bad work ethic, he's always been an extremely hard worker. Just because someone hasn't lived up to their draft position doesn't mean they are lazy, sometimes they are just picked too high.

He'll never live up his pick number but he can still be a solid cog in an offense. He's an absolute beast when he's blocking, just ask Joey Porter. I still think he can be a really good end-zone target and a solid receiver but needs to work on getting the ball better, like Paranoidmoonduck said he just doesn't look like a natural pass catcher.

He is one of Mike Singletery's favorite players (contrary to popular belief) and from all indications Vernon is working his ass off and being a leader in the off-season, so we will have to see how that translates this year.

Ness
05-19-2009, 03:32 AM
You know you look at the kind of firepower the 9ers can bring to the table (I have big respect for Josh Morgan, and obviously Bruce, Crabtree, Davis and Gore are in there too.) and you have to wonder why they have such trust in Shaun Hill. The guy might pan out, but seriously they needed to try a little harder to bring somebody in.

Who was available to bring in, really? A rookie would have set us back. Warner wasn't going to sign with us. Cutler was under contract and he would have cost way too much to acquire. Hill has played very well and deserves a shot at being a starter.

Ness
05-19-2009, 03:33 AM
What?

Matt Hasselbeck only played in 7 games last year. Only 1 of Carlson's 5 TDs was from Hasselbeck, the other 4 were from Seneca Wallace and Charlie Frye.

Not sure why you're bringing up QB play. John Carlson put up better numbers as a rookie than Vernon Davis ever has with not much better of a QB.

But with Hasselbeck at quarterback, Carlson should receive a boost in his statistics. If Hasselbeck is healthy, the Seahawks have a chance to have a good season. And that means more attention to your team. Which helps Carlson.

Mr. Hero
05-19-2009, 03:43 AM
Jeremy Shockey 2.0 and I still love the shock. Come in as great athletes who weren't good blockers, became excellent blockers while injuries impaired their ability to contribute in the passing game as much as they should, mixed with poor focus which leads to drops.

parrish_lemar24DBSkins
05-19-2009, 04:25 AM
Just a word on Shaun Hill, he led Maryland to the Orange Bowl his senior season, the same year he quarterbacked the TErps to an outright ACC title.

He may not have been an elite prospect coming into the league, but IMO he's a big-time gamer and has the head and psychological makeup to be a very steady NFL signal caller.

CJSchneider
05-19-2009, 07:58 AM
Poor coaching and improper use have led to Davis not living up to his potential. Now that Coach Singletary is in charge, expect to see a change in the play of Vernon Davis. Singletary has already put his foot in VD's back-side and let him know he won't go for the "it's all about me" mentality.

bored of education
05-19-2009, 08:38 AM
Vernon Davis can be a Pro Bowler if he wants to be.

Bucs_Rule
05-19-2009, 09:11 AM
In Madden he is.

abaddon41_80
05-19-2009, 09:24 AM
Davis' struggles really have much more to do with his attitude, terrible hands, and terrible route-running than they do the quarterbacking.

papa burgundy
05-19-2009, 09:51 AM
hes a body catcher.. thats his biggest problem. if he caught the balls with his hands more hed have more catches and the qbs would probably have more confidence in him.

im still insanely impressed with his blocking though.. during the dolphins game he did a better job of blocking joey porter one on one than barry sims did.

CJSchneider
05-19-2009, 10:22 AM
hes a body catcher.. thats his biggest problem. if he caught the balls with his hands more hed have more catches and the qbs would probably have more confidence in him.

im still insanely impressed with his blocking though.. during the dolphins game he did a better job of blocking joey porter one on one than barry sims did.

I've always considered VD a Mr. "Manos de Piedros", Hands of Stone type guy.

Geo
05-19-2009, 10:26 AM
Dallas Clark ... It's time.
This season is his best chance yet, I think. No Harrison to take away looks/touches, which could lead to better production ala 2007, and Tony Gonzalez is in the NFC (sorry to say he did slip my mind, d021). But if he doesn't make it, he doesn't make it.

Sniper
05-19-2009, 10:28 AM
I've always considered VD a Mr. "Manos de Piedros", Hands of Stone type guy.

Piedras, not piedros.

YAYareaRB
05-19-2009, 10:31 AM
I've always considered VD a Mr. "Manos de Piedros", Hands of Stone type guy.

I'm sure he can catch better than this guy

http://www.virginmedia.com/images/duran-choke-400x400.jpg

bigbluedefense
05-19-2009, 11:04 AM
I thought Vernon Davis would be a bust the second he got drafted.

SenorGato
05-19-2009, 11:49 AM
I remember when he came out of Maryland everyone was worried about whether or not he could block. Well.. He certainly can do that.

If you were to tell me he would be this kind of blocker this early in his career I would have said he's the best TE in the game. I have no idea what the problem is in San Francisco, but someone deserves some blame on that coaching staff.

I don't get to see too many Niner games, but he's being under utilized and not coached good enough, clearly. I refuse to believe it's his work ethic, because he went from not understanding how to block to being a complete monster.

He's either going to need a new team to fill his potential or he's going to get it done this year under Singletary. We will see.

I'm still buying the potential. Call me delusional if you may..

+1

I buy into his potential and work ethic big time. It's not like he hasn't made nice plays when he's had the ball in his hands, he just doesn't have the ball in his hands that often.

Sniper
05-19-2009, 11:55 AM
If he played every game like he played against the Eagles this past year, he'd be a Pro Bowler.

YAYareaRB
05-19-2009, 12:29 PM
Maybe this is his year maybe the next. I wouldn't exactly call him a bust but to each his own..

abaddon41_80
05-19-2009, 12:40 PM
+1

I buy into his potential and work ethic big time. It's not like he hasn't made nice plays when he's had the ball in his hands, he just doesn't have the ball in his hands that often.

I am not calling him a bust yet because in 2007, when he was healthy and got the ball thrown to him, he showed a lot of potential and put him decent numbers. In 2006 he was injured and a rookie and last year Martz didn't really call many plays that put the ball into his hands. But the problem is that even when the ball is supposed to come to him he runs the wrong route or drops the pass. Those mistakes are on him and no one else.

Iamcanadian
05-19-2009, 12:45 PM
It would be because of Matt Hasselbeck, not because Carlson is necessarily a better tight end. Not to take anything away from Carlson, he's a good player. I just don't think he's head over heels better than Vernon Davis.

Really, Davis has been a victim of under-utilization and poor quarterback play his entire tenure in San Francisco. When he's given the opportunity to shine, he has shown he has the power to dominate. He does have his issues though. There have been reports of him being a prima donna type, and his hands aren't that great. But he can be a gamebreaker in this league. If he were on a team with a much stable quarterback situation, I'm sure he would have already made a Pro Bowl easily.

He's a little bit slimmer in training camp now and by the looks of what has been said and heart, Jimmy Raye does plan to use him more in the offense as a pass catching target and not just a blocker like Martz did. Shaun Hill has provided pretty decent quarterback play thus far, so that helps. If Hill is the starter and plays like he did last season for the eight games he started, then Davis may finally have a breakout season. It might be a little difficult though still since Morgan, Bruce, and Crabtree could take away looks from Davis' way.

This is a pretty good assessment of Davis IMO. Martz's offense doesn't utilize the TE as a pass receiver so he was lost playing under Martz. His problem remains the weak QBing that San Fran has. It is tough for anybody to put up great pass catching #'s with a mediocre QB throwing you the ball.

HawkeyeFan
05-19-2009, 01:36 PM
In all honestly, look who he's had passing to him? Alex Smith? Shaun Hill (For part of the season, in all honesty, the guy can put up numbers).

Am I missing someone? Alex Smith is just horrible, I have no idea how you can become so bad being in the NFL. But he's overcome the odds and is terrible, just cut him and get it over with, it's not going to get better. With (hopefully) Shaun Hill starting next year, Davis will put up some good numbers. Enough for the Pro Bowl? Probably not, if not this year, I'd say definitely in 2010. That's when Davis could make the Pro Bowl.

All the talent and potential in the world, he just needs a guy like Singletary to push him, and a Quarterback like Hill to get him the ball.

Nalej
05-19-2009, 01:38 PM
He'll never make pro bowl on the 9ers

Saints-Tigers
05-19-2009, 02:38 PM
I'd sure love to take a shot on him. One of the best blocking tight ends in the game already, with the potential to break a big play at any moment, and the upside to turn into one of the very best receiving tight ends....

abaddon41_80
05-19-2009, 06:17 PM
Davis would only be marginally better than he is right now if Peyton Manning was the 49ers quarterback. He sucks, as a receiving tight end, and will continue to suck unless he learns how run routes and catch.

Timbathia
05-19-2009, 09:29 PM
As a pass-catching TE, Davis has been a huge bust (partly his fault and partly the fault of the OC). However, as a blocking TE he has been hugely successful. This means no pro-bowls though, because TEs go to pro-bowl based on fantasy stats and not their true value to a team. If they went on true value to a team then Daniel Graham would be a pro-bowler every year.

I dont see him getting the kind of receiving stats he would need to make a pro-bowl anytime soon.

Borat
05-19-2009, 11:34 PM
Abaddon41_80 is correct. VD's hands are the biggest thing holding him back. He drops way too many passes. The team has zero confidence in him. The 9er offense is usually run-run-pass. Well, the team doesn't really target him on third down since they can't afford the drop and subsequent punt.

LonghornsLegend
05-20-2009, 02:27 AM
Hmmm, am I the only one that thought this was a thread bumped from two years ago? I didn't think anyone would still be putting Vernon Davis and Pro Bowl in the same sentence.

Manic Depressant
05-20-2009, 03:09 AM
Hmmm, am I the only one that thought this was a thread bumped from two years ago? I didn't think anyone would still be putting Vernon Davis and Pro Bowl in the same sentence.

Seriously. Let's let him become an above average TE before we start talking about him in the Pro Bowl.

For what seems like the millionth time, football is not a track meet.

YAYareaRB
05-20-2009, 09:31 AM
Maybe I'm trippin but wasn't Vernon Davis a Pro Bowl Alternate?

Arsenal
05-20-2009, 11:23 AM
Yes he was a pro bowl alternate last year.

GhostDeini
05-20-2009, 04:59 PM
Vernon Davis has short arms. His workout numbers mislead people into thinking it translated into a receiving tightend. It didnt.

LonghornsLegend
05-20-2009, 05:40 PM
As long as Witten remains productive, the star on his helmet will get him voted in.

Or maybe his numbers, production, and play on the field will get him voted in? I just hate people who continually use this excuse, we weren't politicing players to get into the pro bowl like the Redskins were last year.


Terrance Newman was nowhere to be found in the pro bowl last year, Marion Barber, Tony Romo, but all year people were assuming the same thing about them...We all know the Pro Bowl is a joke, and the more primetime games a team gets the better chance a certain player has to make it, but I wish people would stop acting like Cowboys just get voted in every year just because they play for Dallas.

CC.SD
05-20-2009, 06:08 PM
Or maybe his numbers, production, and play on the field will get him voted in? I just hate people who continually use this excuse, we weren't politicing players to get into the pro bowl like the Redskins were last year.


Terrance Newman was nowhere to be found in the pro bowl last year, Marion Barber, Tony Romo, but all year people were assuming the same thing about them...We all know the Pro Bowl is a joke, and the more primetime games a team gets the better chance a certain player has to make it, but I wish people would stop acting like Cowboys just get voted in every year just because they play for Dallas.

This is a very good point, but I am afraid it is your cross to bear until the memory of Roy Williams fades.

LonghornsLegend
05-20-2009, 06:12 PM
Touche, can't deny that.

Chief49er
05-20-2009, 11:22 PM
His work ethic is great, he gives 100% and is a solid tightend. The 49ers have failed to use him the way they should, that will change this season. He is one of the top blocking tightends in the NFL, with more balls thrown his way I expect him to move up in the receiving ranks to. As far as the pro-bowl, who knows... The pro-bowl is ********.

Ness
05-21-2009, 01:19 AM
Looks like he's having his best offseason yet, and he's starting to get more involved with the offense:

--It was a big day of practice for tight end Vernon Davis, who caught a handful of practices during 7-on-7 and team drills. On one play, he leaped to make a catch from Alex Smith about 15 yards downfield, then he shrugged Dashon Goldson to the ground before turning upfield.

http://blog.pressdemocrat.com/49ers/2009/05/day-rundown-beginning-and-ending-with-rice.html

Another receiver who looked good today was tight end Vernon Davis, who seems to be a bit slimmer (read: less muscle-bound) this season. On three occasions, Davis leapt with his arms stretched high to bring down a pass. On one of those catches, Davis was inadvertently knocked down from behind by Washington. This is supposed to be a non-contact practice (tell that to Dominique Zeigler) and the collision was one that Davis, no stranger to practice fisticuffs, might have taken exception to in the past. This time, Davis merely popped back up and continued running down the field with the ball.

http://www.sacbee.com/static/weblogs/49ers/archives/022466.html

nikkayeah
05-21-2009, 01:22 AM
he should do yoga to get more flexible

vidae
05-21-2009, 02:56 AM
Him living up to his potential is one thing, there's also the Pro Bowl politics. The other guys in the conference.

As long as Witten remains productive, the star on his helmet will get him voted in. Chris Cooley is a Pro Bowl TE. And now Kellen Winslow is in Tampa. Jeremy Shockey has a year under his belt and might be as healthy as he can be, if he puts up really good numbers he could very well get the nod.

Davis needs a breakout season to help him get the cred for next year, maybe. But him being very productive and effective in and of itself is more important than the Pro Bowl nod. If he plays well, you'd hope that sort of thing works itself out and recognition deserved is obtained, although it hasn't yet with Dallas Clark of the Colts.

I completely agree with what you've said, but that got me thinking. With Winslow AND Tony G out of the AFC, do you think Clark might see his time in the sun?

Clark, to me, was always that deserving player but on the fringe as far as popularity goes. When the AFC had both Gates and Gonzalez it would have been hard for anyone to be voted in ahead of them.

phlysac
05-23-2009, 08:52 AM
Abaddon41_80 is correct. VD's hands are the biggest thing holding him back. He drops way too many passes. The team has zero confidence in him. The 9er offense is usually run-run-pass. Well, the team doesn't really target him on third down since they can't afford the drop and subsequent punt.

They didn't target him on 3rd down because he was busy being an offensive tackle. He also only had 5 drops last season. It's true that he can improve his hands and his route-running but it's difficult to put up any type of numbers when he's only thrown to 2 or 3 times a game.

FUNBUNCHER
10-07-2009, 06:33 AM
Well, it appears that Vernon Davis actually can catch, despite reports to the contrary. Why the Niners didn't force feed the football to him from Day One of his rookie year is beyond me. (Mike Martz is an idiot).

Dropping balls occasionally doesn't mean you can't catch. I like that Terp to Terp connection in SF, hopefully it will pay off for all parties involved.
This is a guy I still believe is capable of putting up WR numbers and really is the 49ers best receiver.

If he stays healthy, he's gonna set franchise highs in TDs and yards, IMO.

EDIT: Franchise highs for the TE position.

abaddon41_80
10-07-2009, 07:19 AM
Davis still has at least one drop in each game this year

SeanTaylorRIP
10-07-2009, 07:53 AM
Vernon could very well deserve to be a pro bowl this year because of his blocking and improved receiving, but as long as Witten and Cooley keep producing consistently like they have they aren't losing their spots any time soon, although Cooley could be sacrificed because of how bad the Skins are.

killxswitch
10-07-2009, 08:22 AM
If he stays healthy, he's gonna set franchise highs in TDs and yards, IMO.

I assume you mean TE highs in TDs and yards, not overall receiving TDs and yards.

Gay Ork Wang
10-07-2009, 08:24 AM
I assume you mean TE highs in TDs and yards, not overall receiving TDs and yards.
haha that would mean he beats out Rice

JT Jag
10-07-2009, 09:58 AM
Factoring in blocking, Marcedes Lewis is still > Davis.

FUNBUNCHER
10-07-2009, 10:02 AM
Factoring in blocking, Marcedes Lewis is still > Davis.
Wrong conference. Wrong thread.

YAYareaRB
10-07-2009, 10:04 AM
Factoring in blocking, Marcedes Lewis is still > Davis.

You're dreaming bro

Borat
10-07-2009, 10:31 AM
HAHAHA. LMFAO. Marcedes Lewis? Holy ****. That was funny.

MasterShake
10-07-2009, 10:33 AM
Factoring in blocking, Marcedes Lewis is still > Davis.

Seriously? Vernon Davis is an amazing blocker, he's like having an extra o-lineman out there alot of time. He's actually more known for his blocking than his receiving at this point in his career.

abaddon41_80
10-07-2009, 10:50 AM
Factoring in blocking, Marcedes Lewis is still > Davis.

Lewis is an average blocker, at best. Davis is one of, if not the best, blocking starting tight end in the league.

yourfavestoner
10-07-2009, 11:19 AM
Lewis is an average blocker, at best. Davis is one of, if not the best, blocking starting tight end in the league.

Fail, fail, fail, fail, fail. Lewis is actually a better blocker than receiver.

Their careers are actually eerily similar. They were considered dominant receiving threats coming out who couldn't block. In the NFL, they learned how to block very, very well but forgot how to catch. And this season, they're playing much more complete games.

YAYareaRB
10-07-2009, 11:26 AM
Fail, fail, fail, fail, fail. Lewis is actually a better blocker than receiver.

Their careers are actually eerily similar. They were considered dominant receiving threats coming out who couldn't block. In the NFL, they learned how to block very, very well but forgot how to catch. And this season, they're playing much more complete games.

Yeah but only VD was chosen as a pro bowl alternate based solely on blocking

yourfavestoner
10-07-2009, 11:57 AM
Yeah but only VD was chosen as a pro bowl alternate based solely on blocking

I'm not trying to argue against VD's blocking ability, or that Lewis is a better blocker than him. Just that Lewis has developed into a very good blocking TE in his own right.

Vikes99ej
10-07-2009, 11:59 AM
I'm glad Vernon Davis is having success this year. I thought he was the shizz coming out of Maryland. I even took him in like the sixth round of my FF Draft his rookie year.

abaddon41_80
10-07-2009, 12:17 PM
I guess the games when Lewis demonstrates his blocking ability must be home games because whenever I see him play, he is a better receiver than blocker.

Shiver
10-08-2009, 02:39 PM
I like Davis, but he has zero chance to make the pro-bowl as long as Witten and Gonzalez are in the conference. There is a decent chance he could beat out Kellen Winslow, who is stuck on a terrible team.

d34ng3l021
10-08-2009, 03:48 PM
I'm glad Vernon Davis is having success this year. I thought he was the shizz coming out of Maryland. I even took him in like the sixth round of my FF Draft his rookie year.

Yeah it is about time. I was contemplating buying a Vernon Davis jersey when he was drafted cause I thought he was going to be a flat out stud.

It just seems as if drafting a TE THAT early isn't really justified.

SeanTaylorRIP
10-08-2009, 03:51 PM
I like Davis, but he has zero chance to make the pro-bowl as long as Witten and Gonzalez are in the conference. There is a decent chance he could beat out Kellen Winslow, who is stuck on a terrible team.

Ha I totally forgot Gonzo was in the NFC now. So yeah he and Witten will be the pro bowlers. There are only 2 TE's selected. Anyways no way in hell VD would pass Cooley. Winslow probably, but not Cooley, he's arguably one of the top 3 most consistent TE's in the league receiving although isn't anywhere near Witten in blocking.

Go_Eagles77
10-08-2009, 03:51 PM
I like Davis, but he has zero chance to make the pro-bowl as long as Witten and Gonzalez are in the conference. There is a decent chance he could beat out Kellen Winslow, who is stuck on a terrible team.
So far it looks like Brent Celek is having a pro bowl season. He won't make it though considering it's just as much a popularity contest as anything.

22-245-2 in 3 games.

Gay Ork Wang
10-08-2009, 04:01 PM
So far it looks like Brent Celek is having a pro bowl season. He won't make it though considering it's just as much a popularity contest as anything.

22-245-2 in 3 games.
celek is not really close to the others though

YAYareaRB
10-08-2009, 04:03 PM
Celek is pretty tight tho.

Gay Ork Wang
10-08-2009, 04:11 PM
Celek is pretty tight tho.
but not on the level of Witten, Cooley or Gonzo at all, without the popularity contest. He had 4 games so far and im not sure, but i dont think he is as covered as tightly as others

Go_Eagles77
10-08-2009, 04:24 PM
but not on the level of Witten, Cooley or Gonzo at all, without the popularity contest. He had 4 games so far and im not sure, but i dont think he is as covered as tightly as others
http://www.nfl.com/stats/categorystats?archive=false&conference=null&statisticPositionCategory=TIGHT_END&season=2009&seasonType=REG&experience=null&tabSeq=1&qualified=true&Submit=Go

And Celek has already had his bye week. The only other one that you mentioned that also has is Gonzo.

I know it's still early in the season and stats don't mean everything, but if you would watch him play, you would think he is deserving so far. He has done a fine job blocking and when he catches the ball, he is like a bull, almost always needing 3-4 guys to bring him down. Who would have thought Cortland Finnegan would have made the pro bowl last year? Every year there's a couple of guys who no one expects that break out and become great players, and I think Celek is one of them this season. If he was a 1st round pick and not a 5th, there would be no doubt.

Gay Ork Wang
10-08-2009, 04:27 PM
well 3 games makes it even worse. thats a really erally really small sample then to suggest he could make the pro bowl. Grossman looked MVP like the first 5 games in 06

Go_Eagles77
10-08-2009, 04:32 PM
well 3 games makes it even worse. thats a really erally really small sample then to suggest he could make the pro bowl. Grossman looked MVP like the first 5 games in 06
True, that's why I keep saying so far. I'll even be surprised if he keeps up this pace for the rest of the season.

Thumper
10-08-2009, 04:42 PM
Well he can be the second stringer after Celek ;)

TitansCJftw
10-08-2009, 04:48 PM
is he gonna make the pro bowl? i hope so i got him on my fantasy team and so far thats turned out pretty well

Bengalsrocket
10-08-2009, 05:56 PM
is he gonna make the pro bowl? i hope so i got him on my fantasy team and so far thats turned out pretty well

lol, funny thing is my league let me snake both Dallas Clark and Vernon Davis, and they're the top two leading TE's in our league - Sucks I can only start one.

FUNBUNCHER
10-08-2009, 09:56 PM
Can we all agree there are more gifted, playmaking TEs starting in the NFL today than there has ever been in the history of the league??

Nowadays it seems as if every other team has a potential difference maker at TE. TEs are expected to do more than move the chains in today's game, they're expected to be able to win games flat out.

Shiver
10-08-2009, 11:06 PM
If you go back ten years and there was Tony Gonzalez, Shannon Sharpe and.... There just was not a place in the game for the athletic 'tweeners that are so dominant now. Offenses have changed so much, even from when I first started watching football back in the late nineties.

FUNBUNCHER
10-25-2009, 10:28 PM
29 rec., 355 yds, 6 TDs, 6 games.

My season projection, ( barring injury), 60+ catches, 1000+ yards, 10+ TDs.

Seriously.....FIYA!!

Some folks around here, especially you SF fans who insultingly called VD 'stone hands', need to put some hot sauce on that crow pie!!

VD is beasting the way he should have a couple years ago if Martz had ever targeted him in the passing game.

Turtle Power!!!

Borat
10-25-2009, 10:53 PM
I'll gladly eat the crow, but what the **** did you expect us to say? He DID have stone hands the past 3 years. He DID drop passes constantly and they COULDN'T target him as much because he was a drop machine. It's awesome that he's improved his hands. He's now a weapon that we CAN use. He's EARNED it.

FUNBUNCHER
10-25-2009, 11:13 PM
I haven't seen much of VD in SF except game highlights, but IMO he had superb hands at UMD, and I don't think he suddenly forgot how to catch a football playing for the 49ers.

Martz as a rule doesn't use the TE much in in his schemes except as dumpoffs or 4th options. I don't think he ever had a clue how to utilize a player with Davis' skillset at the TE position.

Calling a player 'stone hands' for a few drops when he rarely saw the ball thrown his way period is excessive.

Braylon Edwards I'd bet has just as many drops if not more than Vernon Davis, but that doesn't mean you stop throwing him the ball.

It's easy to lose focus when you know before kickoff you aren't really being factored into the passing game except to block.

Shiver
10-25-2009, 11:24 PM
I'm going to have to say yes right now. Gonzalez, Witten, K2, Cooley all have more recognition, but no TE is playing better than Vernon Davis right now. This is the Vernon Davis' I expected when he came out of Maryland and right now the only TE I would take over him is Gates.

Borat
10-25-2009, 11:27 PM
I haven't seen much of VD in SF except game highlights, but IMO he had superb hands at UMD, and I don't think he suddenly forgot how to catch a football playing for the 49ers.

Martz as a rule doesn't use the TE much in in his schemes except as dumpoffs or 4th options. I don't think he ever had a clue how to utilize a player with Davis' skillset at the TE position.

Well, if you've only seen highlights, then no wonder. His drops won't show up on those. But whatever. I'm not going to argue about it. I've watched every game he's played. He's consistently caught the ball this year. This is a stark contrast to years past. I'm stoked. He's progressing. But please, don't try and say he didn't have bad hands in the past. That's just foolish.

And I'll agree that Martz isn't great at utilizing the tight end. He did try but VD kept letting him down. And Martz was too much of a prick to stay with it. Instead, he utilized VD as a blocker to make better use of Gore. It was lame.

SickwithIt1010
10-25-2009, 11:29 PM
I'm going to have to say yes right now. Gonzalez, Witten, K2, Cooley all have more recognition, but no TE is playing better than Vernon Davis right now. This is the Vernon Davis' I expected when he came out of Maryland and right now the only TE I would take over him is Gates.

i hear you right there, i knew that Vernon was going to be a playmaker....just didnt expect it to take this long.

Shiver
10-25-2009, 11:30 PM
Martz not only didn't use him, but no one in the Nolan regime lit a fire under him. Ever since the "you can't win with 'em" speech Davis has been remarkable. He is even a Team Captain!

Borat
10-25-2009, 11:34 PM
Nolan didn't do anything right LOL. Glad he's doing well as a DC in Denver, but that guy should never be in charge of a team or in the front office. What a disaster.

Ness
10-26-2009, 12:05 AM
I'll gladly eat the crow, but what the **** did you expect us to say? He DID have stone hands the past 3 years. He DID drop passes constantly and they COULDN'T target him as much because he was a drop machine. It's awesome that he's improved his hands. He's now a weapon that we CAN use. He's EARNED it.

Well you could have been smart and realized that he had (and pretty much still doesn't) have any consistently good quarterback throwing him the ball. Terrell Owens also drops balls. But that doesn't mean you stop throwing him the rock, because he still makes plays. The only people that were correctly utilizing Davis were Norv Turner and Jimmy Raye.

49ersfan_87
10-26-2009, 12:12 AM
Davis leads the league in TD receptions :eek:

Borat
10-26-2009, 12:16 AM
Well you could have been smart and realized that he had (and pretty much still doesn't) have any consistently good quarterback throwing him the ball. Terrell Owens also drops balls. But that doesn't mean you stop throwing him the rock, because he still makes plays. The only people that were correctly utilizing Davis were Norv Turner and Jimmy Raye.

Uh, the crappy QB throwing him the ball theory is bogus. He had crappy QB play in the past. He dropped the ball. He has crappy QB play this year. He's not dropping the ball. There is no corrolation there. And I already pointed out that Martz gave up on him and I said that was lame. I'm not seeing what your point is.

SeanTaylorRIP
10-26-2009, 08:08 AM
I think everything with VD was about getting consistency and rhythm. He just had to adjust. In college he was used to being the man and being targeted every single play, in the league when TE's only get select chances he was having a problem keeping the same intensity even when he doesn't get the ball that when he did he wasn't ready or concentrating. I'm so glad he's finally putting it together on the receiving end but one thing you can never knock on him is his blocking. I have no problem saying he should be in the pro bowl over Cooley. It's a shame though he won't make the pro bowl, because even despite having no running game with Gore out, no WR's, and no QB and still has more receptions, yards, and 2 more TD's than them combined, than both Tony Gonzalez and Jason Witten, the problem is that no way he gets voted in by the fans nor the media over those two.

Sniper
10-26-2009, 08:50 AM
Vernon is the greatest!

FUNBUNCHER
10-26-2009, 10:09 AM
I think everything with VD was about getting consistency and rhythm. He just had to adjust. In college he was used to being the man and being targeted every single play, in the league when TE's only get select chances he was having a problem keeping the same intensity even when he doesn't get the ball that when he did he wasn't ready or concentrating. I'm so glad he's finally putting it together on the receiving end but one thing you can never knock on him is his blocking. I have no problem saying he should be in the pro bowl over Cooley. It's a shame though he won't make the pro bowl, because even despite having no running game with Gore out, no WR's, and no QB and still has more receptions, yards, and 2 more TD's than them combined, than both Tony Gonzalez and Jason Witten, the problem is that no way he gets voted in by the fans nor the media over those two.

I think most pro bowl voters are familiar with Vernon Davis because of where he was drafted in the 1st, and if continues to put up these crazy numbers and no other TEs come close, I think it would be hard to ignore him.

900+ yds and 10+Tds for a TE are hard to pass over for any voter.

CC.SD
10-26-2009, 10:29 AM
I think most pro bowl voters are familiar with Vernon Davis because of where he was drafted in the 1st, and if continues to put up these crazy numbers and no other TEs come close, I think it would be hard to ignore him.

900+ yds and 10+Tds for a TE are hard to pass over for any voter.

Try impossible, this is not so common, especially the TDs.

Ness
10-26-2009, 11:42 AM
Uh, the crappy QB throwing him the ball theory is bogus. He had crappy QB play in the past. He dropped the ball. He has crappy QB play this year. He's not dropping the ball. There is no corrolation there. And I already pointed out that Martz gave up on him and I said that was lame. I'm not seeing what your point is.That's like saying if you have a bad quarterback that you are still going to get big numbers. Notice how when Alex Smith came in yesterday Vernon Davis suddenly exploded? That's because he had better play. He still doesn't have the greatest hands, but he's been thrown to way more often, so the drops don't seem very apparent. He's practically already gained his yardage from last season. The same thing is happening with Buffalo in terms of what I'm talking about. Owens is looking terrible due to bad quarterback play.

Borat
10-26-2009, 11:52 AM
Soooooo, um, Alex Smith is all of a sudden a good QB? He has a stronger arm than Shaun Hill. Maybe that's what you're getting at. But let's be real. If yesterday's game happened in previous years, VD would have dropped AT LEAST one of those TD passes.

Honestly, I don't even know what we're arguing anymore. He had stone hands in the past. There isn't really a debate on that, is there?

nepg
10-26-2009, 12:00 PM
Alex Smith isn't "all of a sudden" a good QB. He's been one for awhile, he just got thrown under the bus because Nolan sucks, then swept under the rug when ****-ass Shaun Hill managed to not completely suck. Smith bided his time, stayed in shape, and worked hard while he waited for another chance.

With a good QB and another receiving option, the 49ers might be better than just the best team in the NFC West...

neko4
10-26-2009, 12:37 PM
His physical potential is unmatched....but he needs to get some better work ethic and a better attitude to make something of himself in the league. There are plenty of athletes out there that will actually work hard.
The work ethic is coming along now that singletary is coach

neko4
10-26-2009, 12:40 PM
Alex Smith isn't "all of a sudden" a good QB. He's been one for awhile, he just got thrown under the bus because Nolan sucks, then swept under the rug when ****-ass Shaun Hill managed to not completely suck. Smith bided his time, stayed in shape, and worked hard while he waited for another chance.

With a good QB and another receiving option, the 49ers might be better than just the best team in the NFC West...
I atleast know that Smith is book smart. I think there were some queestions about his football smarts though. He has always had the physical tools though (strong arm, pretty fast, good size). Its to early to tell if he will redeem himself. Many players in his situation do well for a short time because they have no where to go but up.

49ersfan_87
10-26-2009, 12:55 PM
With a good QB and another receiving option, the 49ers might be better than just the best team in the NFC West...

Vernon Davis is tearing it up, Crabtree had a solid debut, and I've always been high on Josh Morgan, who played well yesterday. Add in Frank Gore and we have teh weaponzz!

Now we just need a QB to get their act together.

nepg
10-26-2009, 01:44 PM
I just think it's funny that Alex Smith gets in there and, for the first time in his career, has people to throw to...and it's some big surprise that he produced? Unfortunately, I foresee someone inflating Tebow's stock because of Smith's probable success.

Borat
10-26-2009, 02:17 PM
This thread is great for the lulz.

MetSox17
10-26-2009, 02:23 PM
and i disagree with the tweener label. it's not like these guys are OTs lining up and running routes: no one would ever mistake vernon davis (6'3" 250) for joe staley (6'5" 315). they're heavy wide receivers. which doesn't make them tweeners at all. whereas a guy like eric green was far more similar to his offensive tackles (6'5" 280ish, vs. 6'5" 290ish) and was more of a "tweener": a guy who blocked like an OT and could occasionally leak out and make a play (example chosen out of thin air, may not be the most apt).

I agree with you here, although the tweener label can still be used, but with the WR/TE position, not the OT/TE position like you're arguing against.

TEs have essentially become strong WRs with blocking skills, not so much quick OTs that have receiving skill.

niel89
10-26-2009, 02:45 PM
Alex Smith is the truth. VD 15+ tds.

But really TEs are blowing up this year. 15 TEs on pace for over 50 catches. Only 4 did it in 2003.

good article to read over: http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/wire?section=nfl&id=4540834

Ness
10-27-2009, 11:29 AM
Soooooo, um, Alex Smith is all of a sudden a good QB? He has a stronger arm than Shaun Hill. Maybe that's what you're getting at. But let's be real. If yesterday's game happened in previous years, VD would have dropped AT LEAST one of those TD passes.

Honestly, I don't even know what we're arguing anymore. He had stone hands in the past. There isn't really a debate on that, is there?
He played like a good quarterback in the last game, and that is when Davis all of a sudden exploded and was making catches. With better quarterback play, targets will put up better production. It's as simple as that. I already said he didn't have the greatest hands, but that doesn't mean he was never a bad player. He caught more than his fair share of balls.

d34ng3l021
10-27-2009, 11:41 AM
I am still not sold on Alex Smith and Vernon Davis. Were the Texans playing legit defense or just soft zone to conserve a victory when they were up 21-0?

irishbucsfan
10-27-2009, 12:45 PM
Smith dropped the ball into Davis' hands through double coverage on at least two of those TDs from what I saw.

abaddon41_80
10-27-2009, 01:11 PM
I am still not sold on Alex Smith and Vernon Davis. Were the Texans playing legit defense or just soft zone to conserve a victory when they were up 21-0?

They were still playing the same defense they were all game.

Ness
10-27-2009, 05:33 PM
I am still not sold on Alex Smith and Vernon Davis. Were the Texans playing legit defense or just soft zone to conserve a victory when they were up 21-0?

I'd have a hard time believing that Kubiak would have his team play a lot softer...especially with a change at quarterback. He's been around this league long enough to know that you have to play intense the entire game.

wordofi
10-27-2009, 06:46 PM
I' have to say yes because he's having a very good season. Also, who other than Jason Witten or Tony Gonzalez is better than he is at tight end?

CC.SD
10-27-2009, 08:03 PM
i'm curious how many TEs you think make the pro bowl for a conference, barring injury.

I think you already know this answer.