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BigBanger
05-25-2009, 04:05 AM
Last year I made a thread talking about one of the most overhyped MLBs in the upcoming draft, Rey Maulugua and stated that he played like a second round draft pick. Fairly early in the draft process the doubters started to pop up (I was not the first) one after another until Rey finally became a second round pick in April's draft where he probably ended up getting bashed a little too much. This year I'm getting an early start on one of the most overrated or overhyped players that could be entering next years draft.

Like all threads that bash players, I'm going to start off by stating all the good things that make Sam Bradford an intriguing QB prospect for either next years draft or the '11 draft.

POSITIVES

- Extremely productive

- Great size

- Stands tall in the pocket

- Quick Release

Even though he throws 3/4 and more sidearm, which will probably be brought up late in the draft process, he does get rid of the ball quickly. His great size should off-set his sidearm delivery, so mechanics wise, he doesn't need much work, mostly with his feet and his hips. Lower half mechanics are neither a positive or a negative.

- Good Character and Intangibles

Okay, now that we got his positives out of the way. Let's get to the negatives.


NEGATIVES

- System QB / Mentally Underdeveloped

His biggest negative. A system that creates extremely easy throws and even easier reads. This system made Jason White a Heisman winner. Did White even get drafted? Well, that doesn't even matter. The fact that some people already forgot the guy even exists says more than anything about the kind of numbers the OU offense means for QBs. Throw Sam Bradford's numbers right out there door. They are meaningless. So that means that his best positive -- production -- is worthless. He's coming from a school that has produced some huge numbers at his position, but ZERO NFL talent. The pedigree is a major concern.

But what else about this system takes away from Sam Bradford? Well, the defenses he faces are extremely bland. They're so easy to read, the avearge Joe sitting at home can look at the OU formation, then look at the way the defense is playing, and know exactly where the ball is going to go.

So that means he's in a system that doesn't ask him to make tough throws (hardly ever) or make difficult reads since he sees very bland coverages. This is not good for the NFL. He might attempt five NFL type throws a game. Might. This is why Sam Bradford is so boring to watch. You can watch an entire game and not see him make a single throw that impresses you or a single throw that he's going to be asked to make at the next level. So, if you're impressed with watching some great execution of the bubble screen, or watching a QB hit a RB who's wide open in the flat or hitting the best TE in the country who's also wide open in the flat, then you're easily impressed.

I'm not done with this negative. Just to further prove how significant this negative is I'm not just going to leave it at "He makes easy reads and easy throws."

There is a video on Youtube, and I don not recommend Youtube for scouting purposes, but this video accomplishes what I'm talking about. As you watch this video, look at the throws he makes since it shows every pass attempt from the Texas Tech game. Look at the single coverage. Look at how far he has to throw the ball (a ton of short passes under 15 yards). Look at how much work he has to do. How many throws does his stick into tight coverage? How many throws does he anticipate? Does he throw the ball when the WR gets wide open? Or does he throw the ball to a certain area before the WR is open? Is he accurate on his tougher throws compared to his easy throws? How do these defenses look? Are they changing? Are they different? Is he seeing the same thing time and time again? Are they complex? Or is your basic Cover 2? What's he looking at? What's he doing with safeties? How many WRs does he look at before throwing the ball? Progressions? Does he read both sides of the field?


This is what 14/19 (73%), 304 yards and 4 TDs, 0 INTs and 1 SACKs looks like from Sam Bradford:

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Are you impressed with Sam Bradford after watching that? A guy who stairs down his targets? A guy who makes easy throws? A guy who is asked to do as little as possible?

How is decision making? Is he even making tough decisions?


The questions with this guy are still unanswered, because we just don't know how he'll react to an NFL styled system on a level playing field.

- Level of Competition

What? Yes, he plays against **** defenses with a team that is 95% of the time vastly superior to defenses he faces. Having the greatest supporting cast and being apart of an offensive machine isn't helping his causes. Watching other players take all the pressure of him is not something that he's going to be apart of at the NFL level. Now, when you consider he's in a system that can easily exploit **** defenses, then you add the fact that he has more talent around him than any team in the country... it makes Bradford's accomplishments less and less impressive. He plays against a very good, fast defense, and he has the worst game of his career in the biggest game of his career and he's upstaged by Tim Tebow. Matt Stafford got bashed for not carrying teams on his back or playing big in big games. Well, we wont have to worry about that with Sam Bradford until he gets to the NFL because right now he doesn't have to carry on any one his back and he wont be in (m)any big games.

He is used to having a dominate running game and clean pocket that hardly ever sees a blitz and/or pressure. Having all day to go through his progressions is not going to prepare him for the NFL. Another check under the underdeveloped department.

- Arm Strength

He doesn't have the NFL arm to make the longer or deeper throws. He struggles throwing the ball from the hash to the sideline and really loses his accuracy deep down the field, especially with a receiver that is mildly covered. His accuracy deep could change since he's only started for two years, but his arm strength is pretty much as good as it's going to get. He doesn't throw the ball with his lower half and generates little torque with his hips. Matthew Stafford had incredible torque in his hips. Think Matt Leinart when it comes to arm strength. He has a quicker release than Leinart, so getting rid of the ball on intermediate throws is probably a greater strength for Bradford. Is his arm going to hinder him? Yes, and that's why I have it as a negative. Can he still make it with this arm? Yes. You don't need a cannon to be a great QB, but you do need to be able to make the difficult throws and be able to stretch the field vertically.

- Accuracy

Most people who don't know what they're talking about will say that Sam Bradford is an accurate passer. Those people are ignorant and haven't watched him play. Remember what I said earlier? Throw his stats out the door. Ring a bell? The most important stat you can throw out the door is his completion percentage. This stat is probably among his most impressive, but it's also his most misleading.

You can even look back to that video I showed earlier. Look at the difficult passes he attempts and look at how his accuracy changes. The majority of those go for incompletions either due to inaccuracy or arm strength. When he tries to look defenders off and come to a secondary target, he's inaccurate. When he has to make an NFL throw his accuracy is significantly less impressive and his ball placement is not anywhere near the 68% career completion rate he has. When he has those 14/19 games I showed you with the Texas Tech example, you see 5 of those incomplete passes and they are the most difficult throws he makes all game long and the majority of them are incomplete.

His stats are going to make people who don't watch him extremely close look better than he really is. People are going to say he's got pin point accuracy and then point to his near 70% completion percentage as some kind of proof. But the fact is that he's not nearly as accurate as Matt Ryan, Matthew Stafford or Mark Sanchez. Not even Josh Freeman. This guy doesn't attempt difficult throws, which is the only reason why he complete as many passes as he does. He's got a full season to improve his accuracy on passes over 20 yards, so I wont even count that against him at this time.

Basically, most of these negative come back to his system. Arm Strength is the only thing where system doesn't matter.


If there's anything else that I'm leaving out like Leadership, I probably didn't consider it a positive or a negative. When I saw OU play Florida the look in his eyes and his demeanor was not something that impressed me as he looked like he was in over his head and a look in his eyes that I would sum up as bewildered. I need to see more to call him a poor or good leader.


As he stands right now, I would take Sam Bradford in round 4.

parrish_lemar24DBSkins
05-25-2009, 05:16 AM
I liked that youtube clip because it showed that Bradford didn't exclusively play out of ther shotgun.

Based on how much time you devoted to Bradford's negatives, and your simple whitewashing of his strengths as a QB, to me it comes across that you have a pre-programmed bias against the kid.

What troubles me about college teams that incorporate elements of a spread scheme is, why haven't more of these guys broken out in the NFL as WCO QBs?

Whenever I see teams that substitute short passes for running the footall, I see West Coast. So far it hasn't happened, but I'm still waiting to see what Brennan, McCoy, and Bradford can do in the pros.

First off, college defenses in general won't show the sophistication in coverages that you see in the NFL. This would be the case if Bradford played in the SEC,( better athletes executing base schemes), ACC, Big East or Pac 10. So that's not a huge knock in my book against him.

I didn't see a lot of screen passes in that clip, or from OU in general. Stoopes has Bradford throwing to the TE and RBs coming out of the backfield because those are the top playmakers on the team, although Bradford is still someone who will get the ball downfield to his receivers.

Bradford is a QB who processes info on the field quickly and gets rid of the ball, he's not playing in one or two read system. I've always liked how he spreads the ball to all his receivers, which tells me he has great vision for the entire field.

I'm not gonna refute each point you made, BigBanger, not enough time, but I will say that Bradford is the best QB to ever play under Stoopes. Every year I'd say the talent level is consistently high across the roster, the difference comes at the QB position.

Except for White, Josh Heupel, and Bradford, Oklahoma's offense has struggled to find any rhythm, consistently move the football, or put up big points without solid QB play.

The difference between the three QBs IMO is that Bradford has better tools; size and arm strength and slightly better decision making.

WHenever I try to evaluate how good Sam Bradford is, I think back to the season he had his RS frosh year. That wasn't the performance of a system QB, but of someone who has unique skills for the position.

SO based on worth/talent, what round do you think Bradford should go, BigBanger??

Yatta!
05-25-2009, 05:27 AM
You make some valid points but overall the positives far outweigh the negatives. It's just the norm now that the top QB prospect will be the subject of excessive analysis and a lot of that tends to be negative.

BigBanger
05-25-2009, 05:39 AM
Based on how much time you devoted to Bradford's negatives, and your simple whitewashing of his strengths as a QB, to me it comes across that you have a pre-programmed bias against the kid.

SO based on worth/talent, what round do you think Bradford should go, BigBanger??
Well, I devoted the time on the negative side to show why I think he sucks. There's also not much else to say about production. I mean, what else can I say other than, "He was extremely productive?" I could probably add his stats, but there's Google for stuff like that.

He's a high character guy. What else do I say? Most of his positives have little to do with his tools. He's tall. What else do I say?

This should be an indicator that I don't think he has great tools or physical ability.


I guess you didn't read the last line of the of thread. I'll quote it for you.

As he stands right now, I would take Sam Bradford in round 4.

Halsey
05-25-2009, 06:24 AM
I find it hard to take someone too seriously when they throw the level of competition argument out there. There are starting QB's from all levels of competition in the NFL. The most recent Super Bowl winning QB played in the MAC. The Super Bowl losing QB didn't even play Div 1 football. Trying to make the Big 12 out as weak competition is a joke.

Also, Having a good supporting cast tends to happen at big time programs. If having good players around a QB in college prevented them from being good pros then Peyton Manning, Tom Brady and Carson Palmer wouldn't be where they are. If you buy the supprting cast argument then you'd never want a QB from a big time program...

The highly overused level of competition and supporting cast arguments are garbage

Ozzy
05-25-2009, 06:25 AM
Well done, totally agree me with you here! Sam Bradford is just not as great as everyone says he is, simple as that. Good, not great.

Addict
05-25-2009, 06:26 AM
I find it hard to take someone too seriously when they throw the level of competition argument out there. There are starting QB's from all levels of competition in the NFL. The most recent Super Bowl winning QB played in the MAC. The Super Bowl losing QB didn't even play Div 1 football. Trying to make the Big 12 out as weak competition is a joke.

Also, Having a good supporting cast tends to happen at big time programs. If having good players around a QB in college prevented them from being good pros then Peyton Manning, Tom Brady and Carson Palmer wouldn't be where they are. If you buy the supprting cast argument then you'd never want a QB from a big time program...

The highly overused level of competition and supporting cast arguments are garbage

Brady probably isn't the best example there. Brady's college career wasn't exactly awe-inspiring.

Ozzy
05-25-2009, 06:31 AM
Brady probably isn't the best example there. Brady's college career wasn't exactly awe-inspiring.It was in his final bowl game against Alabama.;)

Halsey
05-25-2009, 06:42 AM
Brady probably isn't the best example there. Brady's college career wasn't exactly awe-inspiring.

I never said his college career was "awe inspiring". I said having good players around a QB doesn't stop them from succeeding in the NFL. Brady was, however, good enough to start his final 2 years at Michigan, get named to the All Big 10 honorable mention team and lead Michigan to a Orange Bowl win.

JFLO
05-25-2009, 07:16 AM
I tend to agree with this rant...Bradford's production and prototype size overshadow his amount of rawness and inexperience of making calls or even reading defenses at the LOS.

abaddon41_80
05-25-2009, 07:37 AM
If you really think that Bradford isn't accurate then there is really no use in arguing with you. The only knocks on Bradford, in my opinion, are that he is a system quarterback, which isn't that bad because OU's offense is very similar to the Patriots or Colts, and maybe level of competition.

princefielder28
05-25-2009, 09:21 AM
Before I dive into your points, this where you stand as a poster; you are coming off as full of yourself for "calling" the Maualuga fall. Also, your stance on Bradford is negative regardless of what anyone has to say so anything Bradford may do or has done will, in some way, be downplayed or degraded.

Let me go through the negatives you point out....

System QB

If you're going to bring up this aspect, you need to ignore the past of players like Jason White. You need to look at each individual player as that, an individual. Jason White battled injuries throughout his career and didn't have the physical tools to overcome the big question marks. Sam Bradford is Sam Bradford, not Jason White, so stop with the comparison.

I compare this situation similar to Texas Tech and their wideouts. Generally, Red Raider wideouts put up huge numbers, so they're part of the system, but occasionally you have one player that transcends the trend. That player this past year was Michael Crabtree and his abilities were greater than the system, which has produced wideouts with great numbers in the past. Oklahoma has had QBs with big numbers, but this time its different with Sam Bradford because he isn't just another QB, he's special.

Level of competition

This was probably the most laughable of them all. Courtesy of Dan Hawkins, this is Division I football, this is the Big XII, not intramurals. Outside of the SEC, the athletes and players in the Big XII are the best in the nation, and they need to be recognized as such. Look at a defense like Missouri for example. Missouri has quite a bit of NFL talent on it, and Oklahoma and Sam Bradford were able to light them up for 62 points (34/49, 384 yards, 2 TDs). Even in the National Championship he didn't have the sexiest statistical game, but he proved more positives than he did negatives. He made alot of NFL throws, showed mobility and showed that he could handle a faster defense. Please don't bring up the level of competition because right behind the SEC, the Big XII has the best players and defenses to offer.

Arm strength

Bradford's arm strength isn't special like Matthew Stafford, but I would say it's very comparable to Mark Sanchez. The arm strength would be a greater issue if Bradford wasn't so accurate, but his accuracy helps make up for any disadvantage that his arm strength may bring. I will be discussing the accuracy issue more below.

Accuracy

I lied, the level of competition is the most laughable, this is. He is a pinpoint passer and is sick accuracy-wise compared to this year's #1 pick Matthew Stafford. You bring up struggling on accuracy on deeper throws but if you get a breakdown of a QBs accuracy on three levels (short, intermeditae, deep) the deep level will ALWAYS have the lowest accuracy. I'm not gonna say that he doesn't have area to improve here because he does, but on his deep throws he places the ball in a spot where only his receiver can make a play. He isn't missing those deep passes short and inside; if he was, then that would create greater concerns. He fits perfectly as West Coast QB and he reminds alot of Aaron Rodgers because of his ability to put the ball on the spot in the short and intermediate range, but still has some work to do on the deep ball.

Leadership

I'm not going to dive deep into this topic, but Bradford is a player, a quarterback, who leads by example and not by a rah-rah attitude. As a sophomore there are very few players who are looked at to be the leader of the team at an emotional level, and it can't come as a surprise that Bradford didn't fill that role for Oklahoma this past season. The leadership thing has alot to do with a person's personality and Bradford is more a calm and collected individual rather than an attention grabber like Mark Sanchez.

I'm anxious to hear which QBs you believe are better served to be NFL caliber and what makes them greater than Bradford's 4th round value.

SuperKevin
05-25-2009, 09:29 AM
I always laugh when people say a player will fail because his college hasn't produced pros at that position. I must have missed the rich QB tradition at schools like Miami-Ohio, Kansas St, and Delaware.

stephenson86
05-25-2009, 09:34 AM
the title of your thread doesnt help your cause here, youve instantly made the thread sound like a childish bash on him. in future put something like Prospect Analysis: QB Sam Bradford.

the decider13
05-25-2009, 10:02 AM
WOAH...OU hasn't produced any pro QBs? Everyone should just blindly draft UCLA and Stanford QBs because they produced great QBs once.

White didn't get drafted because he was always injured, and I wouldn't dare to compare the "huge stats". White may have one a Heisman, but Bradford had like 1500 more yards and 18 more TDs.


"Most people who don't know what they're talking about will say that Sam Bradford is an accurate passer. Those people are ignorant and haven't watched him play"

I've watched almost every OU game for the last two years...I would say that Bradford is an accurate passer. Ignorant?

Also, make a thread to complain about him AFTER the season. His Oline is going to be inexpierenced, his starting receivers left, and he has an entire year to develop before the draft.

jballa838
05-25-2009, 10:03 AM
I always laugh when people say a player will fail because his college hasn't produced pros at that position. I must have missed the rich QB tradition at schools like Miami-Ohio, Kansas St, and Delaware.
That doesn't really count.
He said his main weakness is arm strength, and Roethlisberger, Freeman, and Flacco had it for days.

Calvin & Kevin
05-25-2009, 10:09 AM
The one thing that really worries me about Bradford is the weird sidearm delivery. That stuff doesn't fly in the NFL. Name me the last QB with a delivery like that to be any good.

Watching Bradford on video, his sidearm delivery results in a lot of passes that are looped in there or thrown with lots of air under them. In the OU system, as was pointed out here, he had lots and lots of plays where he could throw passes like that to open areas and have wide open receivers running under them. In the NFL he will almost never have that.

I know he's also capable of throwing balls with some zip on them too, but again Banger is right in saying that those are generally in short to medium zones only.

I'm not going so far as to call Bradford a fourth-round pick, but it blew my mind in this recent draft to hear certain Lions fans say that Bradford would have been picked ahead of Stafford if he'd come out this year. That's ridiculous.

the decider13
05-25-2009, 10:12 AM
The one thing that really worries me about Bradford is the weird sidearm delivery. That stuff doesn't fly in the NFL. Name me the last QB with a delivery like that to be any good.


http://legacy.decaturdaily.com/decaturdaily/sports/061224/path1A.jpg

BuddyCHRIST
05-25-2009, 10:35 AM
I'll agree that he's overrated as a pro prospect, that system blows up his stats and his arm strength isn't great. But I do think your underrating his accuracy, he makes alot of throws that couldn't be made if he didn't put it on the exact right shoulder. This whole QB class is overrated imo, none of these guys are legit 1st rounders to me.

Calvin & Kevin
05-25-2009, 11:25 AM
http://legacy.decaturdaily.com/decaturdaily/sports/061224/path1A.jpg

Na, Rivers has like a three-quarter delivery. He doesn't have that weird pushing-the-ball thing that Bradford does.

The nearest thing I can think of in recent years is Vince Young, people said that would be no big deal too. Although Young has other issues, and if he was a better QB between the ears maybe his throw wouldn't matter much, I dunno.

Prowler
05-25-2009, 12:04 PM
i would take him in the 2nd round for a lot of the reasons listed above, plus i don't see anything elite that i couldn't get out of a lot of the backup NFL vets out there right now. i can get a sage rosenfels type for $50 million cheaper.

Dam8610
05-25-2009, 12:13 PM
Provided he doesn't get injured this season and miss time, he'll be a 3 year starter with 40-42 career starts and an accuracy rate near 70%. That video showed him making several NFL caliber throws as well, threading double coverage, and placing balls in spots where only his man could get them, most of the time hitting them in stride. Given the experience and accuracy he'll have coming into the NFL, he's far less likely to fail than your average Top 5 QB prospect, and if my team is investing that kind of money into a player, it'd be nice to get a guy who has the odds on their side.

CC.SD
05-25-2009, 12:14 PM
I hear he stole Tebow's girlfriend online.

http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e211/Southlick/funnny1.jpg

Crickett
05-25-2009, 12:34 PM
Na, Rivers has like a three-quarter delivery. He doesn't have that weird pushing-the-ball thing that Bradford does.


Then you have forgotten the time prior to the 2004 draft, since his side arm delivery was Phillip Rivers' main weakness as a draft prospect.

PACKmanN
05-25-2009, 12:39 PM
I hear he stole Tebow's girlfriend online.

http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e211/Southlick/funnny1.jpg

hahahahahaha, wtf.

LonghornsLegend
05-25-2009, 12:55 PM
I hear he stole Tebow's girlfriend online.

http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e211/Southlick/funnny1.jpg

HAHAHAHAHAHHAHAAHA, awesome in so many ways.


LMAO@him changing 'wtf' to *heck loll.

SenorGato
05-25-2009, 01:05 PM
I hate that he throws flat footed so often for a guy who is well protected. He's an arm thrower...I'm not a fan of that.

W/e...he's not my favorite QB prospect but theres definitely stuff to work with.

Lol at erinandrews always being DTF.

Geason Noceur
05-25-2009, 01:21 PM
One thing that's glaring in that video is that he has ALL day to throw. You rarely see a defender within three yards of him. He has excellent accuracy, but who wouldn't with that kind of time. There were also a lot of short throws and YAC. I'm not very impressed with Bradford. There's nothing about the kid that makes him stand out. His offensive line and receivers are a different story though.

One thing that that video doesn't show is his tendency to look to the sideline to change a play. That really grinds my gears. He's been in the system for three years, and he doesn't audible a measly play at the LOS? He redshirted and is older than Stafford, and Stafford was audibling as an 18 year old true freshman in the SEC. It all goes back to that infernal spread offense. It just doesn't help develop a QB the right way.:(

CC.SD
05-25-2009, 01:32 PM
I agree there is just the slightest whiff of Tim Couch arond Bradford, but for the most part it's being blown out of proportion. He doesn't have dominant tools, but i don't think his arm is any weaker than Matt Ryan and that turned out pretty well. The accuracy is there and he's got a good head on his shoulders...he probably does need to speed up his game because he won't get elite protection like that in the NFL. But overall I think he'll grade out as a cornerstone.

Erin Andrews is in fact always DTF, just look at that glint in her eye.

p.s. Rivers' 3/4 delivery>yuo

SuperKevin
05-25-2009, 01:41 PM
Why take Bradford when you can get the nearly identical Rusty Smith in the mid/late rounds?

yourfavestoner
05-25-2009, 01:43 PM
Thank you. It seems like draftniks have a really bad habit of picking and choosing which prospects to downgrade for playing in a spread system. It hurts Tebow, but Bradford is not affected at all? Harvin will never learn to run routes, but Jeremy Maclin will? Come on guys.

Dam8610
05-25-2009, 02:05 PM
Thank you. It seems like draftniks have a really bad habit of picking and choosing which prospects to downgrade for playing in a spread system. It hurts Tebow, but Bradford is not affected at all? Harvin will never learn to run routes, but Jeremy Maclin will? Come on guys.

The difference is Bradford is for the most part a pocket passer, while Tebow is like a power version of Vince Young. Similarly, Maclin played most if not all of his time as a WR, whereas Harvin split between RB and WR. I think that's a result of grading the prospects individually.

BigBanger
05-25-2009, 02:36 PM
I find it hard to take someone too seriously when they throw the level of competition argument out there. There are starting QB's from all levels of competition in the NFL. The most recent Super Bowl winning QB played in the MAC. The Super Bowl losing QB didn't even play Div 1 football. Trying to make the Big 12 out as weak competition is a joke.

Also, Having a good supporting cast tends to happen at big time programs. If having good players around a QB in college prevented them from being good pros then Peyton Manning, Tom Brady and Carson Palmer wouldn't be where they are. If you buy the supprting cast argument then you'd never want a QB from a big time program...

The highly overused level of competition and supporting cast arguments are garbage
Well, Mark Sanchez has had this stigma as well -- if you wanna call it that instead of a negative. All USC QBs over the last handful of years have had that concern. He's also from a program where they haven't produced an NFL starter at QB since Carson Palmer. That should be a red flag. It isn't going to the be the end all and be all for drafting him. It is something to consider.

Not one QB you mentioned had the same kind of talent OU has had over the last two years. Not just talent, but NFL talent. Carson Palmer didn't have that. USC wasn't the same USC we've seen over the last few year when Palmer was there. They were bad (for USC standards) for the majority of his time in college.

This is not a joke. Look at the last four years. The top 3 QBs from the draft over the last four years. Just look at 'em. Jay Cutler. Matt Ryan. Matthew Stafford. What do they all have in common? They were surrounded by either poor or inexperienced players. They didn't have NFL stars playing at NFL levels compared to spread out defenses where they could easily play some nice little pitch and catch all day, and then watch their WRs run for 40 yards. Those guys faced adversity. Those guys went into places like Swamp, VT and Alabama, and went in with a team that they had to carry on their backs. Battle tested goes a long way and being in their shoes is something that helps you at the NFL level. Getting your ass kicked in college isn't always a bad thing. Sitting in a perfect pocket with all day to throw and putting up 60 points every game just isn't going to help him. Give me a guy like Jay Cutler who has to stand in there, looking down the barrel in the face of a blitz and pressure in his face, know he's going to get hit and step into his throw. I don't want a guy that sees this in the two games he loses about 5 times in each of them.

I posted a video showing all his throws from a game. Watch it. Watch it multiple times. Just ask yourself the questions I was asking. If your answers are positive and you like them, then that's okay.

SuperKevin
05-25-2009, 02:46 PM
This is not a joke. Look at the last four years. The top 3 QBs from the draft over the last four years. Just look at 'em. Jay Cutler. Matt Ryan. Matthew Stafford. What do they all have in common? They were surrounded by either poor or inexperienced players. They didn't have NFL stars playing at NFL levels compared to spread out defenses where they could easily play some nice little pitch and catch all day, and then watch their WRs run for 40 yards. Those guys faced adversity. Those guys went into places like Swamp, VT and Alabama, and went in with a team that they had to carry on their backs. Battle tested goes a long way and being in their shoes is something that helps you at the NFL level. Getting your ass kicked in college isn't always a bad thing. Sitting in a perfect pocket with all day to throw and putting up 60 points every game just isn't going to him. Give me a guy like Jay Cutler who has to stand in there, looking down the barrel in the face of a blitz and pressure in his face, know he's going to get and step into his throw. I don't want a guy that sees in the two games he loses about 5 times in each.
.


Matt Stafford only had a 1st round RB, 2nd round WR, and very talented underclassmen who could be 1st day picks.

eaglesalltheway
05-25-2009, 02:53 PM
Though I'm not the biggest Bradford fan, I defintiely think he is worth a first round grade right now, just not top 5 like some people are saying. I'm not one to get enamored with measurables liek arm strength, but I think that is a legitimate concern for Bradford. It's not that it is weak, but it is average to slightly above, IMO, and it worries me that he is in a spread offense where his reads are much easier, and as a result, his throws are easier as well. I also don't like how OU's offense would get lined up, wait for the D, then they'd look to the coaches to either change the play or confirm it was OK. Bradford should be able to make those reads himself if he is an elite QB prospect.

parrish_lemar24DBSkins
05-25-2009, 02:59 PM
I think looking to the sideline before changing the offensive play had more to do with Stoopes mico-managing Bradford, than his QB being unable to call an audible.

I'd love to hear Stoopes explain why he doesn't trust his all world QB to make that call.

Staubach12
05-25-2009, 03:03 PM
I agree with a lot of the analysis. I disagree on his accuracy. His accuracy redeems him as a prospect in my eyes. I'm not concerned about the history of the Oklahoma program, that stuff is superstition. I'm concerned about the system and the fact that he rarely goes through many reads. I'm concerned about the fact that he has all day to throw. When he jumps into the NFL game, he's going to have half as much time to make three times as many reads. That just doesn't bode well for him.

BigBanger
05-25-2009, 03:20 PM
Before I dive into your points, this where you stand as a poster; you are coming off as full of yourself for "calling" the Maualuga fall. Also, your stance on Bradford is negative regardless of what anyone has to say so anything Bradford may do or has done will, in some way, be downplayed or degraded.

Let me go through the negatives you point out....

System QB

If you're going to bring up this aspect, you need to ignore the past of players like Jason White. You need to look at each individual player as that, an individual. Jason White battled injuries throughout his career and didn't have the physical tools to overcome the big question marks. Sam Bradford is Sam Bradford, not Jason White, so stop with the comparison.

I compare this situation similar to Texas Tech and their wideouts. Generally, Red Raider wideouts put up huge numbers, so they're part of the system, but occasionally you have one player that transcends the trend. That player this past year was Michael Crabtree and his abilities were greater than the system, which has produced wideouts with great numbers in the past. Oklahoma has had QBs with big numbers, but this time its different with Sam Bradford because he isn't just another QB, he's special.
I wasn't the one to call Maualuga's fall. I also said I wasn't the first to openly bash him, and I also said he ended up getting too much hate. He's a solid player and he'll be very good in Cincinnati. You don't take solid players in the top 10 though. I do think he's a better prospect than Sam Bradford. I don't hold a negative view of Bradford. It's a skeptical view. I bashed the living hell out of Matthew Stafford his second year, and then he proved me wrong his junior year and stepped his game up. He ended up being my top rated prospect overall. I said he was getting overrated because he has a big arm, and he was, but he just so happened to put it all together his junior year.

Never compared him to Jason White. I said he's in the same offense that produced non-NFL player and Heisman trophy winner, Jason White. It's your prerogative to ignore the system he plays in. It's something I'm going to take into consideration. When he turns out to be a bust, just remember there were glaring questions in his game that went either ignored or simply denied. And you'll have to learn from that. I learned my lesson with Vince Young. I had all these question marks in his game and the biggest question mark (system / development) went ignored. Probably because he put on the greatest show I've ever seen of any QB in the Championship game against USC. I became blinded by stats and highlights when he didn't throw the ball to his WRs at all. I'm still learning this whole process and I'm still learning from past mistakes in judgement.

He's special? Did he do anything special during the Texas Tech game?

What exactly makes him special?


Level of competition

This was probably the most laughable of them all. Courtesy of Dan Hawkins, this is Division I football, this is the Big XII, not intramurals. Outside of the SEC, the athletes and players in the Big XII are the best in the nation, and they need to be recognized as such. Look at a defense like Missouri for example. Missouri has quite a bit of NFL talent on it, and Oklahoma and Sam Bradford were able to light them up for 62 points (34/49, 384 yards, 2 TDs). Even in the National Championship he didn't have the sexiest statistical game, but he proved more positives than he did negatives. He made alot of NFL throws, showed mobility and showed that he could handle a faster defense. Please don't bring up the level of competition because right behind the SEC, the Big XII has the best players and defenses to offer.
62 points against Missouri? Holt ****. My dick just moved.

He didn't have a great statistical game against Florida because he played a good defense that game. The only good defense he faced all year long.

Big 12 isn't for defense. If you think Bradford is facing legit defenses, then your opinion will hold none value in my book at all.

Arm strength

Bradford's arm strength isn't special like Matthew Stafford, but I would say it's very comparable to Mark Sanchez. The arm strength would be a greater issue if Bradford wasn't so accurate, but his accuracy helps make up for any disadvantage that his arm strength may bring. I will be discussing the accuracy issue more below.
Sanchez had a stronger arm.

Accuracy

I lied, the level of competition is the most laughable, this is. He is a pinpoint passer and is sick accuracy-wise compared to this year's #1 pick Matthew Stafford. You bring up struggling on accuracy on deeper throws but if you get a breakdown of a QBs accuracy on three levels (short, intermeditae, deep) the deep level will ALWAYS have the lowest accuracy. I'm not gonna say that he doesn't have area to improve here because he does, but on his deep throws he places the ball in a spot where only his receiver can make a play. He isn't missing those deep passes short and inside; if he was, then that would create greater concerns. He fits perfectly as West Coast QB and he reminds alot of Aaron Rodgers because of his ability to put the ball on the spot in the short and intermediate range, but still has some work to do on the deep ball.
I wasn't talking about just deep throws. I also said I wont hold that against him since he's only played two years. I don't expect him to be good on deep balls. Accuracy on tougher throws is what I'm talking about. I'm not talking about the swing passes to DeMarco Murray. Just because he doesn't miss that throw doesn't mean he's accurate.

It's easy to say he's accurate because it takes no evaluation or effort or time watching him. You just look at the stats, and say, "There ya go. He's accurate." You don't think Matthew Stafford would have increased his accuracy another 6% playing in that wide open offense with all those easy throws? Matt Stafford's accuracy isn't as good as Sam Bradford because he's asked to make throws that are more likely to go incomplete, because they're a lot more DIFFICULT. There's something called timing and anticipation on his throws. Bradford hits a guy after he gets open. Stafford throws it before he gets open. Sanchez did this too. As well as Matt Ryan. It's a big reason why those guys are going to be very good QBs at the next level.

BigBanger
05-25-2009, 03:24 PM
Matt Stafford only had a 1st round RB, 2nd round WR, and very talented underclassmen who could be 1st day picks.
He had a great RB and a future NFL bust at WR and a bunch of very young guys who made mistakes that young players make. AJ Green is going to be great, but do you think he's a great route runner? One of Staffords INTs last year was all on Green because he ran a terrible route and the CB jumped it. Stafford trusted Green to get open and since Green gave **** effort on the play, it's a pick, but no one remembers that. There were numerous blown assignments for that young Georgia team.

Stafford made his mistakes as well. He was a junior who would have been better off staying another year (I think all QBs should stay 4 years). To even compare or begin to compare the talent level around Stafford and Bradford is a joke, and out of respect for Georgia and SEC football, I wont do it.

BigBanger
05-25-2009, 03:47 PM
WOAH...OU hasn't produced any pro QBs? Everyone should just blindly draft UCLA and Stanford QBs because they produced great QBs once.
Exactly what I'm saying.

White didn't get drafted because he was always injured, and I wouldn't dare to compare the "huge stats". White may have one a Heisman, but Bradford had like 1500 more yards and 18 more TDs.
79 TDs and 19 INTs in two years as a starter for a guy who never even got a look at the NFL... That says something.

I've watched almost every OU game for the last two years...I would say that Bradford is an accurate passer. Ignorant?
Yes.

Also, make a thread to complain about him AFTER the season. His Oline is going to be inexpierenced, his starting receivers left, and he has an entire year to develop before the draft.
He's in a system that restricts his development. Unless Stopps starts implementing some throws that require some difficulty, he isn't going to be getting any better or change much.

Which is my whole point regarding the system QB / underdeveloped mentally negative.

Geason Noceur
05-25-2009, 03:54 PM
Matt Stafford only had a 1st round RB, 2nd round WR, and very talented underclassmen who could be 1st day picks.

Underclassmen is the magic word here. All of his linemen were either freshmen (2 true, 1 redshirt) and sophomores (1 true, 1 redshirt). They were all either still wearing braces or looked like they didn't even shave yet. It doesn't matter how talented a true freshman lineman is, he's still a true freshman. Georgia's coach even said that instead of the linemen protecting the QB that Stafford was calling audibles that protected the linemen. Many people don't realize just how much Stafford had to do to buy enough time to be able get the ball to that 1st round RB and 2nd round WR.

the decider13
05-25-2009, 04:20 PM
Exactly what I'm saying.


79 TDs and 19 INTs in two years as a starter for a guy who never even got a look at the NFL... That says something.


Yes.


He's in a system that restricts his development. Unless Stopps starts implementing some throws that require some difficulty, he isn't going to be getting any better or change much.

Which is my whole point regarding the system QB / underdeveloped mentally negative.

Maybe you should steer clear of calling people ignorant...just kinda makes you look like an ass. Especially with quite a few people disagreeing with you.

EDIT: What makes you so much smarter than all the other fans and scouts who have him ranked highly? You seem to think you are the only one with a valid opinion.

the decider13
05-25-2009, 04:38 PM
Never compared him to Jason White. I said he's in the same offense that produced non-NFL player and Heisman trophy winner, Jason White. It's your prerogative to ignore the system he plays in. It's something I'm going to take into consideration. When he turns out to be a bust, just remember there were glaring questions in his game that went either ignored or simply denied. And you'll have to learn from that. I learned my lesson with Vince Young. I had all these question marks in his game and the biggest question mark (system / development) went ignored. Probably because he put on the greatest show I've ever seen of any QB in the Championship game against USC. I became blinded by stats and highlights when he didn't throw the ball to his WRs at all. I'm still learning this whole process and I'm still learning from past mistakes in judgement.



62 points against Missouri? Holt ****. My dick just moved.

He didn't have a great statistical game against Florida because he played a good defense that game. The only good defense he faced all year long.

Big 12 isn't for defense. If you think Bradford is facing legit defenses, then your opinion will hold none value in my book at all.


Sanchez had a stronger arm.


I wasn't talking about just deep throws. I also said I wont hold that against him since he's only played two years. I don't expect him to be good on deep balls. Accuracy on tougher throws is what I'm talking about. I'm not talking about the swing passes to DeMarco Murray. Just because he doesn't miss that throw doesn't mean he's accurate.


You now have successfully brought up 2 QBs that are nothing like Bradford. Bradford can actually throw the ball, unlike young.

He didn't have a great statistical game against Florida because his WRs dropped passes. Two of the INTs were both off of dropped passes that should have been caught. Bradford was the only one on the offense playing at a NC level. Maybe you just looked at the stats? Highlights?

Big XII isn't the top defenses in the country, but it isn't like they are JV. They are still very good.

You are very much underestimating Bradford's arm.

Also, some of the other points about his great offensive line and weapons aren't going to be part of the equation this year. The top two WR both left, as well as 4/5 offensive lineman. If he struggles behind a mediocre line, then some of these points will be valid.

abaddon41_80
05-25-2009, 04:44 PM
I love how people bring up Bradford's game against Florida as a knock against him. Stafford played 10 times worse than Bradford against Florida.

619
05-25-2009, 04:49 PM
I love how people bring up Bradford's game against Florida as a knock against him. Stafford played 10 times worse than Bradford against Florida.

I don't know about you, but I was expecting a much poorer performance in the NC from Bradford. Considering how poorly Loadholt and Robinson played in front of him that night, I thought he did well. That Florida defense is filled with tons of NFL talent and very scary as well.

BigBanger
05-25-2009, 05:49 PM
You now have successfully brought up 2 QBs that are nothing like Bradford. Bradford can actually throw the ball, unlike young.

He didn't have a great statistical game against Florida because his WRs dropped passes. Two of the INTs were both off of dropped passes that should have been caught. Bradford was the only one on the offense playing at a NC level. Maybe you just looked at the stats? Highlights?

Big XII isn't the top defenses in the country, but it isn't like they are JV. They are still very good.
The first pick was a deflection by the CB. The second was just a great play by Black who took the ball away from the WR. Maybe if Bradford didn't hang the ball up in the air for 10 minutes it would have been completed. Maybe Johnson wouldn't have gotten laid out by Major Wright on the opening series if Bradford put some mustard on it, and stuck it in there like Matt Stafford or Jay Cutler do in their sleep.

Stop with the defense talk. For your own good.

9 of 12 teams gave up at least 30 points per game. Texas was the only team that allowed under 25 points a game. 11 of the 12 defenses in the SEC allowed less than 25 points per game.

9 teams gave up 400 yards a game. 0 SEC teams accomplished this feat. Arkansas would have been the third ranked defense in the Big 12. They finished dead last in the SEC and by a wide gap over Kentucky (11th ranked defense) who, statistically, would have finished first in the Big 12.

Yeah, Big 12 defense sucks.

Not debatable. Do not respond or try to debate anything I just said. You will look bad.

the decider13
05-25-2009, 05:55 PM
The first pick was a deflection by the CB. The second was just a great play by Black who took the ball away from the WR. Maybe if Bradford didn't hang the ball up in the air for 10 minutes it would have been completed. Maybe Johnson wouldn't have gotten laid out by Major Wright on the opening series if Bradford put some mustard on it, and stuck it in there like Matt Stafford or Jay Cutler do in their sleep.

Stop with the defense talk. For your own good.

9 of 12 teams gave up at least 30 points per game. Texas was the only team that allowed under 25 points a game. 11 of the 12 defenses in the SEC allowed less than 25 points per game.

9 teams gave up 400 yards a game. 0 SEC teams accomplished this feat. Arkansas would have been the third ranked defense in the Big 12. They finished dead last in the SEC and by a wide gap over Kentucky (11th ranked defense) who, statistically, would have finished first in the Big 12.

Yeah, Big 12 defense sucks.

Not debatable. Do not respond or try to debate anything I just said. You will look bad.

So that has nothing to do with the Big XII offenses? And why are you talking about SEC defenses? Did I ever say they weren't the best?

You are right, I'm not gonna participate in this discussion. You are continually making yourself look dumber. Good luck being a pro scout rating Bradford out as a 4th round pick.

MidwayMonster31
05-25-2009, 05:56 PM
Give any good coach a month to prepare for an offense and they can shut it down. FWIW, Oklahoma was outplaying Florida in the first half. If anything, Bradford showed me more in the "national championship" than he did in the other games. He responded to the pressure fairly well. He never gave up after things didn't go his way. He was never tested like that in the regular season, even against Texas. He may not be a rah-rah type leader, but everyone else knows that he's in charge.
His game is going to get picked apart over the course of this season. His delivery is more 5/8 than 3/4. That is something he will probably have to adjust. He has taken snaps under center and executes the play-action well. Making the progressions quickly is something that every quarterback needs to learn, which is why there are so many busts. He is very accurate. He does not have a rocket arm, but he has a good arm (slightly below Ryan). I don't put too much stock into his numbers since a lot of those yards were YAC by the receivers. I think that he has the intelligence, accuracy and leadership to succeed.

princefielder28
05-25-2009, 05:57 PM
It is absolutely pointless to post a response or critique what you have to say because of anyone contributing to this thread, the most ignorant individual is you. If you are correct, down the road, about Bradford then props to you, but at this point it is all opinions, and you continue to dismiss what anyone has to say if those views do not line up with yours.

abaddon41_80
05-25-2009, 06:10 PM
I don't know about you, but I was expecting a much poorer performance in the NC from Bradford. Considering how poorly Loadholt and Robinson played in front of him that night, I thought he did well. That Florida defense is filled with tons of NFL talent and very scary as well.

I never expect a poor performance from Bradford but I agree that, considering how terrible every OU linemen other than Trent Williams played, Bradford had a good game. People tend to act like Florida had a run of the mill SEC defense last year but the fact is that Florida had a defense almost on par with USC's, if you ask me, and not many quarterbacks could have done as well as Bradford against them.

the decider13
05-25-2009, 06:37 PM
I never expect a poor performance from Bradford but I agree that, considering how terrible every OU linemen other than Trent Williams played, Bradford had a good game. People tend to act like Florida had a run of the mill SEC defense last year but the fact is that Florida had a defense almost on par with USC's, if you ask me, and not many quarterbacks could have done as well as Bradford against them.

Florida's defense was insane...The other SEC defenses probably sat around and talked about how awesome Florida's defense was lol

parrish_lemar24DBSkins
05-25-2009, 06:50 PM
Considering at least 8 of the defensive starters for the Gators in last year's NC will be mid to high round draft picks, ( I'm being conservative about that number 8), Bradford's performance IMO wasn't that bad.

umphrey
05-25-2009, 07:03 PM
hmm, you make a good argument. I'm convinced. I don't think he's worth a first rounder.

Dam8610
05-25-2009, 07:23 PM
I see we're starting the overanalysis of Bradford really early.

princefielder28
05-25-2009, 08:28 PM
BigBanger, if Bradford is nowhere near the top QB prospect, then who is?

BigBanger
05-25-2009, 08:38 PM
I see we're starting the overanalysis of Bradford really early.
If you are in the minority that is very skeptical of Bradford, then you are probably the only one who is analyzing him.

I have wasted a lot of time in the past watching top rated QBs, only to find huge flaws in their game, and the bash the living hell out of them... mostly because I hate watching poor QB play, and if people are saying so and so is a top rated player, and I watch Andre Woodson and come away thinking... WTF are these morons talking about? I'm gonna let it be known, because assholes like that, that have no NFL future just wasted my time.

Brian Brohm was so average it made me sick. Brady Quinn was so average it made me sick. Andre Woodson had more holes in his game than the Iraqi Navy, but some morons stuck in the top 10 of Mock Drafts. Some people thought that worthless little ****, Colt Brennan was the exception and would be a first round pick even though he has horrible arm strength and very low delivery. Not to mention his system inflated his numbers, and his numbers were the only reason people knew who he was.

Sam Bradford hasn't even be scouted yet, because if he was, people would start to see a guy that just doesn't do much of anything other than watch his receivers pile up the YAC.

Don't let me convince you he's terrible. Listen to my points, then watch him with what I've said in mind and see if it sounds crazy.

BigBanger
05-25-2009, 08:42 PM
BigBanger, if Bradford is nowhere near the top QB prospect, then who is?
In the upcoming draft?

Sneed looks like he has the most potential. First round potential that is. I don't know if he's going to be a high first round pick, and I need to see a lot more out of him, but right now, he's the only guy that makes me think a first round draft choice should be possible.


I was very high on Stafford last year (1st overall). I really liked Sanchez as well (5th overall). I think Freeman is a 4th round type guy, so I didn't like him and I think he could be a big bust in Tampa.

Matt Ryan is getting a little overrated, but he was every bit a top 5 prospect.

I like some QBs, but they get overhyped and overrated every single year.

JFLO
05-25-2009, 08:46 PM
I really like Tim Hiller out of Western Michigan. Doesn't face top notch competition but he's a very smart quarterback in the pocket, has good overall intangibles and a pretty good arm.

SuperKevin
05-25-2009, 08:48 PM
I really like Tim Hiller out of Western Michigan. Doesn't face top notch competition but he's a very smart quarterback in the pocket, has good overall intangibles and a pretty good arm.

I'm with you there. Tim Hiller and Rusty Smith are both going to be intriguing QB prospects come draft time

Dam8610
05-25-2009, 08:50 PM
If you are in the minority that is very skeptical of Bradford, then you are probably the only one who is analyzing him.

I have wasted a lot of time in the past watching top rated QBs, only to find huge flaws in their game, and the bash the living hell out of them... mostly because I hate watching poor QB play, and if people are saying so and so is a top rated player, and I watch Andre Woodson and come away thinking... WTF are these morons talking about? I'm gonna let it be known, because assholes like that, that have no NFL future just wasted my time.

Brian Brohm was so average it made me sick. Brady Quinn was so average it made me sick. Andre Woodson had more holes in his game than the Iraqi Navy, but some morons stuck in the top 10 of Mock Drafts. Some people thought that worthless little ****, Colt Brennan was the exception and would be a first round pick even though he has horrible arm strength and very low delivery. Not to mention his system inflated his numbers, and his numbers were the only reason people knew who he was.

Sam Bradford hasn't even be scouted yet, because if he was, people would start to see a guy that just doesn't do much of anything other than watch his receivers pile up the YAC.

Don't let me convince you he's terrible. Listen to my points, then watch him with what I've said in mind and see if it sounds crazy.

I watched your video earlier, I saw 5 NFL caliber throws in it, of which Bradford completed 3 in very impressive fashion:

1) Comeback route to the sideline, incomplete.
2) Double coverage on Gresham, Bradford splits the double and puts the ball in Gresham's breadbasket.
3) Seam route to Gresham in 1-on-1 coverage, Bradford places the ball perfectly so that only Gresham has a shot at it, goes for a TD.
4) Deep post to Manuel Johnson, Bradford hits it in stride, goes for a TD as a result. Bradford places that throw any differently, it's an incompletion, interception, or best case, a catch for a long gain but no TD.
5) Comeback route to the sideline, incomplete.

As for your criticism that he dumps off too much, the Colts throw to their RBs in the flats a lot, and the Patriots run a ton of WR screens, does that make Peyton Manning and Tom Brady terrible QBs?

BigBanger
05-25-2009, 08:59 PM
So that has nothing to do with the Big XII offenses? And why are you talking about SEC defenses? Did I ever say they weren't the best?
No, you didn't say that and I didn't say you did. You did say they were very good, which they're not. Either that or you have very low standards.

And yes, the offenses have a big impact on the poor defenses since offenses are so spread out that they can dictate the coverages and tie the hands of a D coordinator into playing simple Cover 2 man under schemes that don't bring any pressure or give QBs different looks.

I was just showing you how much better the SEC is than the Big XII. When you consider Bradford had, by far, the worst game of his career against an SEC defense, which was the only legit defense he faced all year long, it should be something to consider. You don't have to if you don't want to.

Just consider how much better the SEC is compared to the Big XII. Then consider just how much better the Detroit Lions defense is than the best defenses the college game has to offer.

Bradford is going to see defensive packages he's never seen before because his system creates so many easy match ups. He's not going to have those easy reads with one-on-one match ups all game long. He is underdeveloped. It's not his fault. It's the system. It kills the growth of a QB.

SKim172
05-25-2009, 09:21 PM
I will say this about that Youtube clip - that Texas Tech defense can't run or tackle for their lives.

I have wasted a lot of time in the past watching top rated QBs, only to find huge flaws in their game, and the bash the living hell out of them...I'm gonna let it be known.

Prophesy, oh great Nostramus, prophesy! No more shalt thy keen witness be fettered! No more shalt thou words be silenced! Sing! Tell us mere mortals of the heralds of doom and grant us your dire warning!

Because everyone is WRONG and only YOU are special enough to see it.


And hell, I kinda agree with you. I really like Sam Bradford and want him to do well. But with an objective eye, no, I don't think he's a first round talent and he leaves me with a lot of questions. I agree with the vast majority of your points - I think you're right about his accuracy, but for the wrong reasons.

What I think is his biggest problem for the NFL is his throwing style. And I don't mean the sidearm. I like the sidearm. I don't know what all the fuss is about the sidearm.

What I mean is the way he's always throwing flat-footed. Barely any torque from the hips. He's throwing purely with his arm. And to generate the power, he doesn't extend his arm in his release, but instead sorta whips his forearm over his elbow and his wrist over his forearm. It's a quick, compact throwing motion, yes, but the ball speed's just way too slow.

He puts more hip into the throw on deep passes, but these seem to be his most inaccurate and he seems to struggle to get the ball out there.

These two things, I think, are the reasons for his occasional inaccuracy. On short passes, he's very accurate, but anywhere over fifteen yards, he seems to have problems.

He definitely stares down his receivers. He's making the read before the snap and working out the timing for the receiver he knows he'll throw to. He shows difficulty reading the field.

Also, I don't like his footwork and occasionally seems oblivious to pressure.

Besides the NC game against Florida, I'd suggest watching the Fiesta Bowl against West Virginia. WVU absolutely dominated that game and Bradford looked completely lost. WVU's defense is a weird one and Bradford seemed unable to make sense of it. And man, he got sacked like crazy.

BigBanger
05-25-2009, 09:37 PM
I watched your video earlier, I saw 5 NFL caliber throws in it, of which Bradford completed 3 in very impressive fashion:

1) Comeback route to the sideline, incomplete.
2) Double coverage on Gresham, Bradford splits the double and puts the ball in Gresham's breadbasket.
3) Seam route to Gresham in 1-on-1 coverage, Bradford places the ball perfectly so that only Gresham has a shot at it, goes for a TD.
4) Deep post to Manuel Johnson, Bradford hits it in stride, goes for a TD as a result. Bradford places that throw any differently, it's an incompletion, interception, or best case, a catch for a long gain but no TD.
5) Comeback route to the sideline, incomplete.

As for your criticism that he dumps off too much, the Colts throw to their RBs in the flats a lot, and the Patriots run a ton of WR screens, does that make Peyton Manning and Tom Brady terrible QBs?
I didn't see some of those throws as impressive. He didn't make one NFL read the entire game and he stairs down each and every target and hits his first option on almost every pass attempt (unless he dumps it off to the RB). With that said, I'll go through the NFL caliber throws since he didn't make one NFL read. This is what scares me the most with Bradford and most people probably don't know how big of a concern it is, but he went an entire game without making one NFL read. Stafford didn't go a quarter without making an NFL read. He probably didn't go back-to-back drives without making and NFL read.

1. 12 seconds -- 9 route goes incomplete. Tight coverage on the outside. One-on-one. NFL pass attempt. High level of difficulty. Over threw target by about 5 yards.

2. 20 seconds -- 17 yard come back. Very tight coverage. Incomplete. Highest level of difficulty on any throw of the game. NFL throw. Actually a good thing that it went incomplete. Bad thing... arm strength? I wont answer that for you. I'll let you and everyone else make of that what you will.

3. 1:22 -- Seem route to Gresham. Dropped. Excellent ball placement and split the CB and S. Coverage wasn't tight and Gresham was open. Low level of difficulty. Gresham drops an easy TD. For those who don't know. Germain drops a lot of passes (had two drops in this game alone).

4. 2:25 -- Deep post. TD. Very good ball, around 45 yards in the air. Coverage was very poor. No safety help. Low level of difficulty.

5. 2:43 -- 15 yard come back from the middle of the field on the move. NFL Throw. Anticipated his first throw of the game and threw to a spot. Fairly high level of difficulty. Target was open. Threw it short. Incomplete. Arm strength?


Of those 5 throws. Only 3 were difficult in my book. All 3 went incomplete.

The Gresham TD was a blown coverage by the LB. He was uncovered and the safety came over way too late. Wide open. Not really what I would call an NFL throw. I mean, there has to be coverage. Someone has to be covering the guy.

I also don't know what pass you're talking about with Gresham into double coverage. He's hardly ever single covered in this game. He had a couple catches that were easy pitch and catch plays. About 15 yard pass that went for about 40 yards (30 seconds in). The other was 37 seconds in where Gresham sits down in a zone between a MLB and an OLB and makes the catch. This is a very easy pitch and catch. About a 7 yard pass.

srv fan
05-25-2009, 09:56 PM
I'm not nearly as astute as you, Belichick, but I can spell "stares", "seam", and "Jermaine" correctly. Can I also e-flex now?

The top quarterbacks every year get nit-picked to an incredible degree, and it seems Bradford's turn is starting extra early. But hey, no QB ever develops past their 2nd starting year in college, so Bradford's worthless.

JeffSamardzijaIRISH
05-25-2009, 10:37 PM
Brady Quinn looked average? Enlighten por favor.

BigBanger
05-25-2009, 10:57 PM
Brady Quinn looked average? Enlighten por favor.
I debated Brady Quinn for over a year. I'm done bashing him and I'm not going to get into that.

Until he proves me wrong (second round caliber QB), I'm not going to talk about him. Right now he's disappointing me and not living up to my expectations and my expectations were lower than most. He should be a capable starter.

TACKLE
05-26-2009, 12:48 AM
The top quarterbacks every year get nit-picked to an incredible degree, and it seems Bradford's turn is starting extra early.

The Detroit Lions sign Matthew Stafford to a six-year 78 million dollar deal with 41.7 million guaranteed.

Well thank god for nit-picking. Taking a top QB is kind of a big deal high in the draft is kind of a big deal.

Me Likey Rookies
05-26-2009, 01:33 AM
Some people thought that worthless little ****, Colt Brennan was the exception and would be a first round pick even though he has horrible arm strength and very low delivery.

I thought this was uncalled for.

And credit DraftParty, the greatest youtube channel of all-time, for the video in your first post.

Halsey
05-26-2009, 01:50 AM
It's not that top picks shouldn't be nitpicked, it's just that many fans have become irrationally afraid of QB's and act as if other positions are always safe. I really have no idea about Bradford at this point, but people were really digging deep for reasons to not like Ryan and Stafford. Often people were just pulling criticisms from thin air that were totally invalid.

Bald_81
05-26-2009, 02:11 AM
Not gonna bash you or anything BigBanger because you do make some good points. I just have some questions as a Rams fan:

1. The Rams are installing a WCO. If they stink it up this upcoming season and are in line to draft him, does the fact that their system relies on quick reads and accuracy (Bradfords strengths) and not a really big arm (Bradfords weakness), does this make the transition to the NFL easier for him? I basically mean, will his success be optimized to the max in our offense?
2. I would like to know how you have the eligible QBs for the draft ranked this season based on this analysis. From what I can tell, you probably have Snead ranked ahead of him don't you?
3. If you would take Bradford in the fourth round, where would you take McCoy (who I'm not a big fan of)?

The one thing I will say is you talk about some of his negatives like level of competition and system, then I guess you must have had Joe Flacco as going undrafted.

whatadai
05-26-2009, 04:19 AM
All you've proven IMO is that a QB who has the vision to find an open man, no matter how he got open, is a 4th round talent. Not disagreeing with you that he's overrated. I just think you could support it with better analysis.

Also...if you call someone a 4th round talent and they actually get drafted in the 4th round, it doesn't always mean that they're actually a 4th round talent. That's like saying Ryan Leaf is a 1st round talent and Tom Brady is a 6th round talent. Everyone and anyone who said Ryan Leaf is a 1st round talent would be considered a scouting genius with these low standards.

wicket
05-26-2009, 06:34 AM
I debated Brady Quinn for over a year. I'm done bashing him and I'm not going to get into that.

Until he proves me wrong (second round caliber QB), I'm not going to talk about him. Right now he's disappointing me and not living up to my expectations and my expectations were lower than most. He should be a capable starter.

he's played 1 game in the pro's without a broken hand and looked great in that game, so far the things are looking bad for you in that respect. To a certain degree i agree with you on bradford. I would like to see how he copes with the departure of that rediculous OLine in front of him. If he copes well and has a year similar to last year he deserves top 10 talk, right now he is a late first rounder to me.

Addict
05-26-2009, 06:54 AM
did he just diss Colt Brennan? That's just wrong.

lordquas
05-26-2009, 07:45 AM
sam bradford sucks?
WTF is wrong with you people..
Hating on a guy because he mastered his offense really isn't a good argument.
What's wrong with a 6'4 220 QB with pinpoint accuracy thats extremely poised under pressure?
All of you chumps are overthinking his game. Sure he throws a lot of short passes, but what fuckinNFL QB doesn't?
Sam Bradford is a great QB, he's smart, knows how to manage a game, plays cool, and can make any throw he wants to.

parrish_lemar24DBSkins
05-26-2009, 09:30 AM
If people are expecting OU's offensive line to be significantly worse next year, I wouldn't hold my breath.

Granted they won't have the same amount of playing experience, but when's the last time their front five was subpar?
I can't imagine Braford will deal with much more pass rush pressure than he did the last two years.

The biggest transition will be at the WR spots, but even there I expect everyone to be up to speed in 5 games. Besides, with a QB like Bradford, if they can catch and run the proper routes, the ball will be there.

Lastly, on the subject of arm strength, some have noted he throws many balls with his upper body with very little push from his legs. This is a mechanical problem, a poor habit that can be coached and improved upon, IMO.

So wouldn''t this mean Bradford has the ability to play with a stronger throwing arm following improvements in his technique?

I know that SKins HC Jim Zorn has stated in interviews that Colt Brennan(!!) has a much stronger arm after one year in the Skins offseason weight training program, and has made significant improvements in his throwing style.
(Don't know what the last part means because he still has that 3/4-sidearm motion).

Not comparing the two, just making the point that one of Bradford's negatives, pedestrian arm strength, may not be as big a weakness as many people once thought.

scottyboy
05-26-2009, 10:34 AM
Mike Teel> Matt Stafford>BigBanger

nepg
05-26-2009, 10:51 AM
I don't disagree with the OP, here. I really don't like Bradford in the first round. He seems like a 4th round QB to me. Why is he projected #1 Overall and Erik Ainge went in the late-5th? And Ainge was/is better at the areas that are considered Bradford's strengths.

In the 2009 draft, Bradford was an easy first round pick because the QB class sucked. In 2010, the QB crop is very strong. Guys like Hiller, Smith, Hall, McCoy, Sneed, and a boat load of others are all contenders for the #1 QB status.

abaddon41_80
05-26-2009, 11:07 AM
I can't tell if some of the people in this thread are serious or not. I mean did nepg just basically say that Erik Ainge was more accurate and could read defenses better than Bradford? Really?

nepg
05-26-2009, 11:27 AM
Yes, I did. And he got it done in a pro style offense against the toughest defenses in college football.

thetedginnshow
05-26-2009, 12:35 PM
It's funny you said he's mentally underdeveloped because I've always thought he looked special.

And LOL at the chat.

Mr. Stiller
05-26-2009, 01:16 PM
The one thing that really worries me about Bradford is the weird sidearm delivery. That stuff doesn't fly in the NFL. Name me the last QB with a delivery like that to be any good.

Watching Bradford on video, his sidearm delivery results in a lot of passes that are looped in there or thrown with lots of air under them. In the OU system, as was pointed out here, he had lots and lots of plays where he could throw passes like that to open areas and have wide open receivers running under them. In the NFL he will almost never have that.

I know he's also capable of throwing balls with some zip on them too, but again Banger is right in saying that those are generally in short to medium zones only.

I'm not going so far as to call Bradford a fourth-round pick, but it blew my mind in this recent draft to hear certain Lions fans say that Bradford would have been picked ahead of Stafford if he'd come out this year. That's ridiculous.

http://www.raiders.com/uploadedImages/History/Greatest_Moments/012008gannon1.jpg


Anyone else see Jeff Garcia in Sam Bradford?

lordquas
05-26-2009, 01:24 PM
Mike Teel> Matt Stafford>BigBanger

Mike Teels a little sissy boy, get over it

Brent
05-26-2009, 01:42 PM
Anyone else see Jeff Garcia in Sam Bradford?
Bradford is not any where near Garcia in terms of mobility.

San Diego Chicken
05-26-2009, 02:16 PM
I personally hope that Bradford proves his doubters wrong after reading this thread. He certainly doesn't suck at what he does - operate a college offense. Personally I think he has a lot of question marks too, but it's not his fault that he has great playmakers around him, or that his offensive system is considered "gimmicky", or that he faced a few questionable defenses. That just means, throw the stats out the window.

He still has two years of eligibility left and that is plenty of time to work out the kinks in his game. I think he is kinda similar to Rivers, but they are in completely different sitations. Rivers wasn't even considered a sure first rounder until the middle of his fifth season in college.

I think Bradford should definitely become a gym rat and try to get his body thicker and stronger to take those hits. No more playing golf in the offseason.

BigBanger
05-26-2009, 04:33 PM
Not gonna bash you or anything BigBanger because you do make some good points. I just have some questions as a Rams fan:

1. The Rams are installing a WCO. If they stink it up this upcoming season and are in line to draft him, does the fact that their system relies on quick reads and accuracy (Bradfords strengths) and not a really big arm (Bradfords weakness), does this make the transition to the NFL easier for him? I basically mean, will his success be optimized to the max in our offense?
2. I would like to know how you have the eligible QBs for the draft ranked this season based on this analysis. From what I can tell, you probably have Snead ranked ahead of him don't you?
3. If you would take Bradford in the fourth round, where would you take McCoy (who I'm not a big fan of)?

The one thing I will say is you talk about some of his negatives like level of competition and system, then I guess you must have had Joe Flacco as going undrafted.
1. I don't know the Rams system, but any system that is going to play to Bradford's strengths... quick reads and quick throws is going to benefit him. I don't think he can throw the ball to the sideline though. He doesn't have the arm to make a throw from one hash to the sideline, which is a very long throw that takes a lot of arm strength. Why I have him as a 4th rounder is because of the time and development he's going to have to go through. Could he be a starter? Yeah, but I don't want to take him in round 1 and expect him to be my guy in year one or even year two or three.

2. From the QBs I've seen, none of them do anything for me. McCoy is also a 4th rounder in my book. Tebow is closer to a 5th rounder. Bradford has more potential than both of those guys. Right now I have Bradford as a 4th rounder with two years of playing under his belt. He can only go up in my book. I wont have him any lower unless he surprises everyone and stinks it up.

3. I'll give you a little scouting report on McCoy. McShay putting him in the top 10 is just stupid. It isn't going to happen.

He makes Bradford's arm look good. He has a Colt Brennan-esque sidearm delivery and since he doesn't have the size Bradford does, it's going to be a problem where it's not for Bradford. His mechanics are really bad and his footwork is going to be something that kills him, especially going from shotgun to under center. He's a much bigger project than Bradford. Texas coaching is atrocious. They have the rawest players in the country whether they're at DL or at QB (Orakpo the most recent). McCoy is a great college QB. Better than Bradford in my opinion, but he's also in one of those Big XII systems that creates very easy reads and easy throws. He's a project that's going to need a lot of time sitting on the bench and learning the system and doing all the work at the NFL level he should be doing now. Right now he's a fourth rounder in my book, but he could fall even lower than that for me. Even though I have both as 4th rounders, the difference between the two is very large since I see a lot more potential with Bradford than I do with McCoy. I don't expect to end up having them with the same grade by the end of the year. He does have great mobility and very good speed and athleticism. He can make a lot of things happen with his feet, but he looks to run when he's scrambling more than pass, so he's not Matt Ryan.

The thing I see with McCoy that I don't see with Bradford is a consistency to attempt more difficult throws and he completes a very high percentage of those throws. He does have very good accuracy and a very quick release. He will stick the ball into very tight zones pretty consistently. The big issue comes back to his arm strength. He gets away with a lot of throws in college he wont be able to at the next level where he just barely sticks a ball in that's nearly picked off. The NFL... it's INT not a completion. Even though he has as much physical ability and much more mobility, he doesn't have the same kind of NFL potential Sam Bradford does.


Sneed is by far the most talented QB that could be in next years class. From all the QBs I've seen, it's not close. He has more potential than just about everyone else. With that said, he's not anywhere near the level of Mark Sanchez, but he is going to get a lot better.

The Ohio State QB, Pryor, is a bigger, more talented version of Colt McCoy with a lot more potential.

Sniper
05-26-2009, 04:44 PM
Tebow for Heisman. Don't drag him through Bradford's mud.

Sniper
05-26-2009, 04:48 PM
I understand that you don't like Bradford, but to say a guy who just won the Heisman and is still in college is a overdoing it a smidge, no?

I'd take him to run a WCO.

BigBanger
05-26-2009, 04:59 PM
I understand that you don't like Bradford, but to say a guy who just won the Heisman and is still in college is a overdoing it a smidge, no?

I'd take him to run a WCO.
He shouldn't have won the Heisman. He was one of three finalists. The other two guys both outplayed him that same season. It has to be a Heisman first.

He's not as good as people say he is. He doesn't suck, but he's just not as good as people are saying.

I don't think he'll drop like Colt or Andre Woodson, but for the sake of having another bust in the first round, hopefully he pulls a Brady Quinn or Brian Brohm.

All I'm saying is that once people (scouts) start to scout this guy, you'll hear people start talking rather negatively about him. You can watch an entire game (like the one on the first page) and not see one NFL caliber play from him. That's going to be a problem.

Staubach12
05-26-2009, 06:55 PM
Hating on a guy because he mastered his offense really isn't a good argument.

Well, when that offense involves making one read per play and two on occasion, it doesn't bode well for him as an NFL prospect.

What's wrong with a 6'4 220 QB with pinpoint accuracy thats extremely poised under pressure?

What pressure? Bradford had more time than almost anyone in college football last year.

All of you chumps are overthinking his game. Sure he throws a lot of short passes, but what fuckinNFL QB doesn't?

Throwing around profanity makes you more right, you know. So good job on that point. The basic facts are NFL QBs make 3 to 4 reads per play routinely. This is not unusual. I've never seen Bradford make more than two. He stares down his targets and has all day to do it. Taking six seconds to make one read is a lot easier than taking three seconds to make three reads.

abaddon41_80
05-26-2009, 07:03 PM
What pressure? Bradford had more time than almost anyone in college football last year.

Against Texas he had no time at all. He had a great game anyway and showed great mobility.

parrish_lemar24DBSkins
05-26-2009, 08:12 PM
You guys are really selling Bradford short. He's not in a one or 2 read system at Oklahoma, the kid has an uncanny abilitiy to survey the whole field quickly and get rid of the ball.

Because he's able to make his reads so swiftly, it may look like it's a system with minimum reads, but Bradford chooses receivers based on coverage and patterns run.

And you may not think he's much of a pro prospect, BigBanger, but how can you say he didn't deserve the Heisman?

Did Tebow, McCoy, or Harrell really have better seasons than Bradford?

Personally I would have voted for McCoy, but I had no beef with Sam Bradford being chosen.

I don't see why you would let your 'objective' analysis of the flaws in his game overlap into a obvious bias against him.

He was a worthy Heisman candidate, and more than deserving of the award, which is all stats and W-L record anyway.

nepg
05-26-2009, 11:22 PM
I think my biggest knock on Bradford is that he's so stiff. I also think he's going to suffer a ton of injuries in the NFL if he doesn't get bigger and more athletic. His arms are very spindly...I'm guessing his listed weight is extremely generous.

Staubach12
05-26-2009, 11:35 PM
Against Texas he had no time at all. He had a great game anyway and showed great mobility.

I will give him that. I forgot about that game. However, one game of dealing with pressure doesn't convince me that he can deal with standing in an NFL pocket 16 games per year. The majority of the time, he has to deal with little to no pressure.

Dam8610
05-27-2009, 07:54 AM
I will give him that. I forgot about that game. However, one game of dealing with pressure doesn't convince me that he can deal with standing in an NFL pocket 16 games per year. The majority of the time, he has to deal with little to no pressure.

Most top QB prospects don't face much pressure in college. In fact, in recent memory, the only QB prospect I can think of that had faced a ton of pressure often is Jay Cutler. Obviously the more a QB can prove himself under pressure in college, the less that's a question heading to the pros, that said, considering it wasn't a question mark for one top QB prospect in recent memory, maybe it's a good thing that he hasn't faced a ton of pressure.

lordquas
05-27-2009, 08:37 AM
Well, when that offense involves making one read per play and two on occasion, it doesn't bode well for him as an NFL prospect.
What pressure? Bradford had more time than almost anyone in college football last year.
Throwing around profanity makes you more right, you know. So good job on that point. The basic facts are NFL QBs make 3 to 4 reads per play routinely. This is not unusual. I've never seen Bradford make more than two. He stares down his targets and has all day to do it. Taking six seconds to make one read is a lot easier than taking three seconds to make three reads.

sorry if my language offended your little sensitive ears.
Yeah, Bradford has a dope O-Line, but saying he sucks because he only has to make a few reads on 1 play is ridiculous.
Who are you to say he only makes 2 reads a play??? I didn't know we had an OU coach in the house!
Theres a lot more that goes into it than what you see on TV FYI.
He stares down receivers, yeah, your right. But come on, thats his only negative.
He's better than McCoy, #2 behind Tebow, because he has great accuracy, great size for a QB, he's extremely efficient, HE KNOWS HIS OFFENSE, doesn't make silly mistakes, and throws a hella tight spiral.

Stop trying to bash a guy who consistently wins and makes good throws.

NFL coaches get paid to develop these guys into stars.
So to say Bradford sucks, is ********, he's a college star.

We'll see once hes on the 49ers how bad he really sucks.

CALLIN IT

nepg
05-27-2009, 09:39 AM
You have Tebow #1...your opinion/analysis is invalid.

Dam8610
05-27-2009, 09:41 AM
#2 behind Tebow

Maybe at TE...

scottyboy
05-27-2009, 09:43 AM
You have Tebow #1...your opinion/analysis is invalid.

quoted for total truth. unless you have bonerz for jump passes, Tim Tebow should never, ever be near the top of any QB list.

FB? TE? yea, maybe there

Staubach12
05-27-2009, 01:45 PM
Yeah, Bradford has a dope O-Line, but saying he sucks because he only has to make a few reads on 1 play is ridiculous.
Who are you to say he only makes 2 reads a play??? I didn't know we had an OU coach in the house!

How can you claim it's impossible to tell how many reads he makes and then admit that he stares down his targets? Anyway, let's get past that. You can tell by watching him, he stares down his first read and then makes a second read if he has to. It's not hard to see.

Theres a lot more that goes into it than what you see on TV FYI.
He stares down receivers, yeah, your right. But come on, thats his only negative.

His only negative? NFL scouts are paid to be critical. Scouting players, all the posters here push themselves to be critical. His system is a negative. His mechanics aren't perfect. He doesn't have a cannon. I can go all day. There are always flaws, friend.

#2 behind Tebow,

I think everyone here just facepalmed.


because he has great accuracy, great size for a QB, he's extremely efficient, HE KNOWS HIS OFFENSE, doesn't make silly mistakes, and throws a hella tight spiral.

Accuracy is great, and a top trait to look for in a QB. His size is nice. But the rest is all part of him fitting a system that you won't find in the NFL. Can he play in an NFL system? That's the question. The spiral is also nice...



Most top QB prospects don't face much pressure in college. In fact, in recent memory, the only QB prospect I can think of that had faced a ton of pressure often is Jay Cutler. Obviously the more a QB can prove himself under pressure in college, the less that's a question heading to the pros, that said, considering it wasn't a question mark for one top QB prospect in recent memory, maybe it's a good thing that he hasn't faced a ton of pressure.

First, let me thank you for being an intelligent, analytical poster. The board is a better place for you. As far as his never facing pressure, I'm not blaming him for that. For all I know, he will handle it very well on the next level. It's just concerning especially considering the time he takes to make reads.



Let me make this point very clear too: I'm not saying Sam Bradford will fail. I'm only saying I wouldn't take him until the mid 20s right now. Can he improve? Absolutely. I hope he does.

etk
05-27-2009, 03:35 PM
http://www.raiders.com/uploadedImages/History/Greatest_Moments/012008gannon1.jpg


Anyone else see Jeff Garcia in Sam Bradford?

That's Rich Gannon....

abaddon41_80
05-27-2009, 03:49 PM
quoted for total truth. unless you have bonerz for jump passes, Tim Tebow should never, ever be near the top of any QB list.

FB? TE? yea, maybe there

Now right now. If Tebow works on his mechanics, develops a throwing motion that isn't a cross between Vince Young's and Byron Leftwich's, and plays smarter I could see him being a first round QB. He has all of the physical tools. Even if he doesn't fix up his problems, if Pat White got drafted in round 2, what is to say that Tebow can't get drafted for a wildcat offense that early?

Brent
05-27-2009, 03:50 PM
That's Rich Gannon....
he was using the pic in reference to the quote in that comment.

the decider13
05-27-2009, 03:50 PM
Now right now. If Tebow works on his mechanics, develops a throwing motion that isn't a cross between Vince Young's and Byron Leftwich's, and plays smarter I could see him being a first round QB. He has all of the physical tools. Even if he doesn't fix up his problems, if Pat White got drafted in round 2, what is to say that Tebow can't get drafted for a wildcat offense that early?

Because he is super slow compared to pat white. Wouldn't be much of a threat in the NFL as a runner imo

GhostDeini
05-27-2009, 03:51 PM
This topic sucks. The only real knock that scouts are worried about is that Bradford does not get touched when he drops back. Everything has been a little too easy for him. His jersey goes unwashed for weeks.

abaddon41_80
05-27-2009, 03:53 PM
Because he is super slow compared to pat white. Wouldn't be much of a threat in the NFL as a runner imo

He isn't as fast as White but he isn't slow, he has been clocked in the 4.4's in the 40. He is a much better passer than White, imo, and is more powerful so he can offer more versatility in short yardage situations.

Sniper
05-27-2009, 03:54 PM
He isn't as fast as White but he isn't slow, he has been clocked in the 4.4's in the 40. He is a much better passer than White, imo, and is more powerful so he can offer more versatility in short yardage situations.

Link? There's no way Tebow runs a 4.4

abaddon41_80
05-27-2009, 03:58 PM
Link? There's no way Tebow runs a 4.4

It was in the local paper when he was playing at Nease that he ran a 4.48. It was probably hand-timed, though.

GhostDeini
05-27-2009, 04:00 PM
I agree that sometimes prospects help other prospects based on their success in the NFL. But they have to be similar in styles. Like Hester's success helping Ginn's stock, but Ginn sucking hurt DeSean Jackson's stock. White & Tebow couldnt be anymore different, so it means nothing what round White was reached on. As of now, Tebow is the best fullback prospect we have ever seen. Take it for what it's worth.

CashmoneyDrew
05-27-2009, 04:04 PM
I'd be shocked if Tebow ran in the 4.5 range even to be honest. If I remember correctly, Vince Young ran around 4.6 at his pro day.

abaddon41_80
05-27-2009, 04:07 PM
I don't even like Tebow that much, he is currently my 4th quarterback for next year, but I am just saying he could go in the first round.

BigBanger
05-27-2009, 06:47 PM
Basing all the information we have on Tebow right now, three years of experience and two as a starter, he is a backup QB at best that will need years of development to garner a #2 role for a team. He has a long delivery and average arm strength. His hips and feet are going to need a lot of time with a QB coach to strengthen his arm and create more zip on his passes. He, like Bradford and McCoy, throws with all arm and no lower body. Now, with another year of development at the college level he could improve on his reads, which are better and more sophisticated than Sam Bradford at this point in time, but that's not saying much. Tebow will actually look off a safety and come back to the other side of the field and throw the ball to an open man. He will actually move a safety with his eyes. Bradford rarely does that and he's very inaccurate when he's not staring his WRs down. Tebow is used to seeing more complex defenses that create different looks specifically for him. The zone coverages he sees aren't those conventional Cover 2 zone under schemes.

All these QBs have a lot of growing to do. A major reason why there seems to be fewer and fewer NFL caliber QBs coming out of the college ranks is because of these one read systems and spread offenses. Floirda's system creates a lot problems for Tebow as a prospect. He's never under center for one and his reads are rather simple, but he did make big improvements last year as a pocket passer and going through his progressions. He does hold the ball for a long time and struggles to find a man if his first two options are covered.

People need to stop talking about his speed and him being a TE. He's not fast or athletic. He doesn't have very good quickness or cutting ability nor the ability to make anyone miss in the open field. He's never played TE. He's never blocked for a RB. He's a QB. Just because he's a prolific player that will take a long time to be a legit NFL QB doesn't mean NFL teams have to write him off and stick him at another position. Coach the ******* kid up and see if he can be a capable starter. He's not going to be all world. If everyone just gets that out of their heads and drafts him in the 4th or 5th round as a developmental guy that will be your third string QB for at least the next three years, maybe then you can have some success with Tebow if he takes to the coaching, learns the system and achieves his potential. If he doesn't work out, then it's no big deal. Not all developmental guys work out. If he moves up your depth chart and shows signs of being a starter in four years, then all that time can pay off. If you draft him in the second round and stick him at another position it's going to be a waste of time and you'll have a bust on your hands.

I really do question his leadership skills at the next level. I love his passion for the game and he can lead a team by example. He's a great leader at the college level, but I don't how NFL players are going to react to this kid and his praise Jesus Christ mentality and his squeaky-clean, virginal image. I don't know what kind of vocal presence he will have in a locker room of men. He makes me roll my eyes whenever he talks, but he pumps me up when he's on the field. I'm a huge fan of his, but I can't take him seriously when he talks and he does come off as a bit of joke.

He needs so much coaching that no one knows how good or bad of a QB he can or will be at the next level. Since he has all these questions surrounding his game, his value as a prospect drops to the fourth or fifth round range. You could find a future starter or a guy who never makes it as a QB and does make a position change if he's ever going to make it. He shouldn't be a boom or bust prospect, he's a boom or nothing prospect.

Race for the Heisman
05-27-2009, 09:42 PM
Most top QB prospects don't face much pressure in college. In fact, in recent memory, the only QB prospect I can think of that had faced a ton of pressure often is Jay Cutler. Obviously the more a QB can prove himself under pressure in college, the less that's a question heading to the pros, that said, considering it wasn't a question mark for one top QB prospect in recent memory, maybe it's a good thing that he hasn't faced a ton of pressure.

Hello, Matt Ryan? Brady Quinn? Trent Edwards, if you go down a little bit. Jimmy Clausen might be there this/next year. You could make a case for Stafford if you tried hard enough.

Whether the lack of sacks on Bradford is due to the offensive line, him, or the system is something I would leave up to debate, but Cutler is hardly the only top guy to have been pressed a bit in his collegiate career.

Dam8610
05-27-2009, 09:52 PM
Hello, Matt Ryan? Brady Quinn? Trent Edwards, if you go down a little bit. Jimmy Clausen might be there this/next year. You could make a case for Stafford if you tried hard enough.

Whether the lack of sacks on Bradford is due to the offensive line, him, or the system is something I would leave up to debate, but Cutler is hardly the only top guy to have been pressed a bit in his collegiate career.

Ryan had 5 drafted OLs in his time at BC, Quinn got plenty of clean pockets, and Edwards wasn't really considered a Top QB prospect. No good QB prospect that I've ever watched saw as much pressure as Cutler did.

scottyboy
05-27-2009, 09:53 PM
Now right now. If Tebow works on his mechanics, develops a throwing motion that isn't a cross between Vince Young's and Byron Leftwich's, and plays smarter I could see him being a first round QB. He has all of the physical tools. Even if he doesn't fix up his problems, if Pat White got drafted in round 2, what is to say that Tebow can't get drafted for a wildcat offense that early?

sure, and IF Jabu Lovelace learns how to throw with any accuracy, read a defense, look off safeties and know how to throw at all from the QB position, he'd easily be a high pick for the wildcat.

see what I did there?

that and i never questioned where Tebow will go. Just having him as the #2 QB is insane and nonsensical

BigBanger
05-27-2009, 09:55 PM
Hello, Matt Ryan? Brady Quinn? Trent Edwards, if you go down a little bit. Jimmy Clausen might be there this/next year. You could make a case for Stafford if you tried hard enough.
You could make a case for Stafford? Is this a joke?

You think he got into the habit of throwing off his back because he had a pocket like Sam Bradford?


Get Jimmy Clausen' name outta there. Garbage. Freaking ND sucks with a terrible QB and people still talk about their QB like he's ever done something or shown he might be able to do something. Let him have a couple of good games in college before we start talking about him as a pro prospect. Minga.

BigBanger
05-27-2009, 10:00 PM
Ryan had 5 drafted OLs in his time at BC, Quinn got plenty of clean pockets, and Edwards wasn't really considered a Top QB prospect. No good QB prospect that I've ever watched saw as much pressure as Cutler did.
Ryan had garbage around him and his O-Line sucked the only two years that mattered.

Quinn, hate the guy and think he's completely average, but anytime ND actually played someone with a defense, he was pressured all game long. It just so happens ND plays two teams with a defense that rank in the top 50 a year.

Trent Edwards and Jay Cutler played for schools that didn't have their sites on winning football games. More academic schools. Jay Culter had Chris Williams though? He had some clean pockets.

If you think Matt Stafford had clean pockets then you didn't watch him and you surely didn't see the Alabama or Florida game. They were on national tv.

princefielder28
05-27-2009, 11:18 PM
Ryan had garbage around him and his O-Line sucked the only two years that mattered.

Quinn, hate the guy and think he's completely average, but anytime ND actually played someone with a defense, he was pressured all game long. It just so happens ND plays two teams with a defense that rank in the top 50 a year.

Trent Edwards and Jay Cutler played for schools that didn't have their sites on winning football games. More academic schools. Jay Culter had Chris Williams though? He had some clean pockets.

If you think Matt Stafford had clean pockets then you didn't watch him and you surely didn't see the Alabama or Florida game. They were on national tv.

Gosder Cherilus and Josh Beekman were on Ryan's lines. They're far from grabage.

BigBanger
05-27-2009, 11:36 PM
Gosder Cherilus and Josh Beekman were on Ryan's lines. They're far from grabage.
He was playing LT... and he sucked.

Beekman wasn't there for his senior year, which is the year that got him drafted as high as he went (3rd overall), so his blocking in Chicago was not felt during Ryans best year.

Anymore brain busters?

There is no point debating how crappy the players were around Ryan. They were bad. He had one NFL player beside him on that offense (senior year) and he had the worst year of his college career because he (Cherlius) was playing out position. So... let's just leave that one alone.

Mr. Stiller
05-28-2009, 12:11 AM
Bradford is not any where near Garcia in terms of mobility.

Wasn't really comparing their mobility but moreso their mechanics and size/builds and style of play (Agreed that Bradford isn't as mobile).

Mr. Stiller
05-28-2009, 12:16 AM
He was playing LT... and he sucked.

Beekman wasn't there for his senior year, which is the year that got him drafted as high as he went (3rd overall), so his blocking in Chicago was not felt during Ryans best year.

Anymore brain busters?

There is no point debating how crappy the players were around Ryan. They were bad. He had one NFL player beside him on that offense (senior year) and he had the worst year of his college career because he (Cherlius) was playing out position. So... let's just leave that one alone.

Cherilus played 1 year at LT. 3 years at RT, where he demolished people.

Beekman was another great OG, and is doing well in the pro's.

They had a 6'7/6'8 LT for 2 years before Gosder and he was actually pretty solid, he wasn't athletic enough for LT in the pro's but he did much better than Gosder, I just can't think of his name.

Ah, James Marten. Excellent player in college.

Snee, Trueblood, Marten, Beekman, Cherilus...

Guys there from 2004-2008.

Not to mention BC has a long standing tradition of building great Offensive lines, even if they're not flashy or high draft picks, they always have a great OL In college.

Race for the Heisman
05-28-2009, 02:54 AM
Cherilus played 1 year at LT. 3 years at RT, where he demolished people.

Beekman was another great OG, and is doing well in the pro's.

They had a 6'7/6'8 LT for 2 years before Gosder and he was actually pretty solid, he wasn't athletic enough for LT in the pro's but he did much better than Gosder, I just can't think of his name.

Ah, James Marten. Excellent player in college.

Snee, Trueblood, Marten, Beekman, Cherilus...

Guys there from 2004-2008.

Not to mention BC has a long standing tradition of building great Offensive lines, even if they're not flashy or high draft picks, they always have a great OL In college.

Everything you said is semi-correct until that last clause. Ryan's line was far from good. They massacred by a Virginia Tech front that was merely good.

Beekman is... well, I wouldn't describe it as doing well. He's got some minute semblance of playing well, but he's hardly setting the world on fire. Strictly average at this point.

Mr. Stiller
05-28-2009, 03:08 AM
Everything you said is semi-correct until that last clause. Ryan's line was far from good. They massacred by a Virginia Tech front that was merely good.

Beekman is... well, I wouldn't describe it as doing well. He's got some minute semblance of playing well, but he's hardly setting the world on fire. Strictly average at this point.

Dude is solid in the run game and gave up a mere 1.5 sacks last year listing him near the top of the OG's. Beekman is no Steve Hutchinson, but the guy plays a good game.

Virginia tech had a great defense the last few years.


Brandon Flowers, Macho Harris, Kam Chancellor, Xavier Adibi, Orion Martin, Aaron Rouse, Carlton Powell, Jimmy Williams, Darryl Tapp, Cam Martin, Cody Grimm and a few others i'm forgetting.

BigBanger
05-28-2009, 04:43 AM
Dude is solid in the run game and gave up a mere 1.5 sacks last year listing him near the top of the OG's. Beekman is no Steve Hutchinson, but the guy plays a good game.

Virginia tech had a great defense the last few years.


Brandon Flowers, Macho Harris, Kam Chancellor, Xavier Adibi, Orion Martin, Aaron Rouse, Carlton Powell, Jimmy Williams, Darryl Tapp, Cam Martin, Cody Grimm and a few others i'm forgetting.
No one really gave Ryan any NFL looks as a junior since he played with a broken foot and had a very average season. His senior year was the year everyone was using the tape to break down his game (seeing as he was the most improved and a prospects last season in college is the most important for game film analysis by scouts). No one cares about about the three NFL linemen they had during his stay at BC. The only thing anyone cares about is the crap line he had his senior year with his crap WRs and his crap RBs, where, to go back to the original statement, Ryan saw a ton of pressure. The only thing he had was a great NFL styled scheme. You want to see a college spread offense that translates exceptionally well, watch Matt Ryan as a senior and that BC scheme.

He was constantly buying time and avoiding pressure. His O-Line and Gosder Cherilus were hardly average... during a good game. Cherilus played so bad against the better teams in the country, it's hard to imagine the Lions took him in the first round basing all his ability on two year old game tape at RT.


People forget. Ryan had next to nothing his last year. It wasn't that long ago. Everyone was saying he was surrounded by zero NFL talent, and the one NFL talent he had was playing very badly because he was out of position. He had pressure. He had the offense on his back. He made plays and he gambled. He threw picks. Forced passes. Did everything he could do to give his team a chance. Some people thought it was all excuses for poor play. It looks like Ryan isn't going to throw 20 INTs a year. Maybe surrounding talent does make a player look below their capabilities if that talent is poor... or vice versa, which might be the case with Sam Bradford. Incredible talent and offensive scheme taking all the pressure off him and making him look better than he really is? Hmm. I think I just found something.

Nevermind. I mentioned that in the original post.

By Snee, I hope you weren't talking about Chris Snee... He was not a college teammate of Ryan. Maybe he had a crappy brother I don't about that also played there?

princefielder28
05-28-2009, 09:25 AM
He was playing LT... and he sucked.

Beekman wasn't there for his senior year, which is the year that got him drafted as high as he went (3rd overall), so his blocking in Chicago was not felt during Ryans best year.

Anymore brain busters?

There is no point debating how crappy the players were around Ryan. They were bad. He had one NFL player beside him on that offense (senior year) and he had the worst year of his college career because he (Cherlius) was playing out position. So... let's just leave that one alone.

The team made it to the ACC Championship and was one quarter away from a BCS game. Regardless of how good Ryan was, he didn't do it all by myself and it certainly wasn't due to the skill players around him either. The men upfront, even if they aren't the most highly touted, gave him enough time to make plays and put the team in a position to be successful.

I will admit that Gosder wasn't the world's greatest LT but playing the ACC helped ease any lackings that Cherilus brought to the table. He did a capable job and helped keep Matt Ryan on his feet.

dabul-master
05-30-2009, 12:52 AM
If big XII defenses are so terrible why did UF score 24 points only? In case you don't know, that's lower than they scored against EVERY SEC defense. So I don't want to hear the the conference knock on Bradford.

Race for the Heisman
05-30-2009, 01:02 AM
If big XII defenses are so terrible why did UF score 24 points only? In case you don't know, that's lower than they scored against EVERY SEC defense. So I don't want to hear the the conference knock on Bradford.

Maybe because it was Oklahoma? Just because one team loaded with prospects can play defense doesn't mean the same holds true for the majority of the conference.

TACKLE
05-30-2009, 01:35 AM
I really do question his leadership skills at the next level. I love his passion for the game and he can lead a team by example. He's a great leader at the college level, but I don't how NFL players are going to react to this kid and his praise Jesus Christ mentality and his squeaky-clean, virginal image. I don't know what kind of vocal presence he will have in a locker room of men. He makes me roll my eyes whenever he talks, but he pumps me up when he's on the field. I'm a huge fan of his, but I can't take him seriously when he talks and he does come off as a bit of joke.

Have you ever seen a Matt Ryan interview? He's as awkward and as squeaky clean as they come. I don't think anybody is questioning his leadership ability. I'm sure both Tim Tebow and Matt Ryan do just fine at relating with their teammates.

Race for the Heisman
05-30-2009, 04:04 AM
Have you ever seen a Matt Ryan interview? He's as awkward and as squeaky clean as they come. I don't think anybody is questioning his leadership ability. I'm sure both Tim Tebow and Matt Ryan do just fine at relating with their teammates.

Just speculation, but I would guess Ryan leads somewhat like Peyton Manning. It isn't by virtue of any extraordinary natural charisma so much as it is being an intelligent quarterback and knowing the game well enough that his teammates have trust in him to make what needs to happen manifest on the field. Of course I'm not saying neither Ryan nor Manning isn't a leader in other ways as well, but that's how I see them (moreso Peyton at this point) just based on the way I have seen them interact with their teammates.

The point is, I don't think Tebow can lead like that (by virtue of comprehensive understanding). I remember an article on Colt Brennan trying to pick his (Tebow's) brain at the Heisman presentation pre-Sugar Bowl (where Hawaii got massacred) and Brennan was asking about coverages and Tebow was apparently telling him about the reads he made of Georgia's defensive line. Not saying Tebow hasn't advanced since then, or that he can't lead by passion (because I sure as hell don't doubt him from that perspective), but it is something to take note of with Tebow at least.

Regarding Bradford, I don't like that he gets the call from the sidelines nearly all of the time, but I do like the fact that he seems to know what his reads should be each time regardless of what the switch is.

lordquas
05-30-2009, 07:50 AM
Get Jimmy Clausen' name outta there. Garbage. Freaking ND sucks with a terrible QB and people still talk about their QB like he's ever done something or shown he might be able to do something. Let him have a couple of good games in college before we start talking about him as a pro prospect. Minga.

oh please

if mike teel could manage to get drafted im pretty sure jimmy clausen can too.

SKim172
05-30-2009, 02:00 PM
oh please

if mike teel could manage to get drafted im pretty sure jimmy clausen can too.

Teel never lost to Syracuse.

Race for the Heisman
05-30-2009, 02:20 PM
This is what I think about Clausen:

He's been coached to be a mechanically perfect quarterback by professionals since he was nine or so, and it shows in his play. He's got a great arm, plenty of experience, very good pocket presence, and he's shown toughness going through his freshman year at Notre Dame with their pathetic excuse of an offensive line that year.

Now, he does throw more than his fair share of interceptions, but if he makes the same improvement between his sophomore and junior years that he did between his freshman and sophomore years, he will be well on his way to becoming a first day or better prospect. Obviously some of his competition is questionable, but if he gives you great mechanics, experience, arm strength, accuracy, and toughness, that covers a lot of what makes a good quarterback besides decision-making. If his experiences next year help him improve on that, why not?

gpngc
05-30-2009, 02:20 PM
Myth: Big 12 defenses are terrible.

Fact: Big 12 offenses are incredible.

When you've got college crazy talent from top to bottom (just think of the QBs- McCoy, Daniel, Bradford, Reesing, Robinson, Griffith) and the wide-open spread-60 throws a game systems, naturally more points will be scored.

It's really not that complicated. The defensive talent in the Big 12 is comparable to just about every other conference. The difference is, in the ACC the defenses have to defend Xavier Lee and Tyrod Taylor while the Big 12 defenses must stop prolific offensive attacks each week.

Big 12 defenses are not awful. Big 12 offenses are just really, really good.

Sniper
05-30-2009, 02:27 PM
Big 12 defenses are not awful. Big 12 offenses are just really, really good.

Points per game in the regular season compared to bowl games.

Oklahoma- 51.1 to 14
Texas Tech- 43.8 to 34
Texas- 42.4 to 24
Missouri- 42.2 to 30
Oklahoma State- 40.8 to 31
Nebraska- 35.4 to 26
Kansas- 33.4 to 42

Care to explain the massive drop in points against other conferences (other than Kansas)?

gpngc
05-30-2009, 02:55 PM
Points per game in the regular season compared to bowl games.

Oklahoma- 51.1 to 14
Texas Tech- 43.8 to 34
Texas- 42.4 to 24
Missouri- 42.2 to 30
Oklahoma State- 40.8 to 31
Nebraska- 35.4 to 26
Kansas- 33.4 to 42

Care to explain the massive drop in points against other conferences (other than Kansas)?

Those are all 30+ in bowl games. It's not a massive drop, it's the product of postseason football.

My logic is simple: Big 12 offenses are VERY good and the Big 12 defenses look worse than they are because of this. And because statistically the offenses are so prolific, the defenses look bad on paper to those who don't actually watch but just look at scores. Tell Orakpo, Hood, McBath, Moore, the Griffins, and countless more that Big 12 defenses are awful. Oklahoma putting up 14 against an amazing Florida team in the title game doesn't disprove that OU had a great offense.

Sniper
05-30-2009, 02:59 PM
Those are all 30+ in bowl games. It's not a massive drop, it's the product of postseason football.

Except it's not, as the two best teams in the league scored 14 and 24 points when matched up against elite defenses. (Florida 9th total D, Ohio State 14th, Florida 4th scoring D, Ohio State 6th)

SKim172
05-30-2009, 03:04 PM
Myth: Big 12 defenses are terrible.

Fact: Big 12 offenses are incredible.

93Yxihmp9UA&feature=related

Go back to that Youtube video and look at the Texas Tech defenders at 0:50, 1:05, 1:35, and 1:42.

The defense can't tackle to save their lives. Or their #2 BCS ranking.

At 1:42, DeMarco Murray catches a pass at the right hash mark at the line of scrimmage and runs to the left sideline, encountering six defenders who can do nothing but lightly brush a single off-balance hand on his shoulder, like he's a dirty rag they don't want to touch with their dainty fingers.

Despite the fact he's gone ten yards backwards from the line of scrimmage and the defenders are on a straight line, Murray beats all six to the sideline, perhaps because these geniuses abandoned their angle and tried to chase him down in the backfield.

Murray heads upfield, where a DB with a perfect angle draws in his arms, turns his body sideways, and attempts to give Murray a side-shoulder bump, just to show him who's boss.

Another DB right in front of Murray decides to tackle him by stretching over his head and reaching for his waist. When this fails, he decides to jog along with Murray for a bit while holding onto his belt. His buddy comes over to help him with the reacharound. The incident ends when one of the disgusted suitors lets go and Murray runs out of bounds in heartbreak and shame.

jnew76
05-31-2009, 11:39 AM
I am a big fan of Sam Bradford. I look at him as an elite pro prospect on par with Stafford and Sanchez, or even better. He is in no way a finished product at this point, but I really like what he has done in two years and I think he is ahead of where Matt Stafford was after 2 years of starting experience. Bradford showed incredible progression from year one to year two. He also showed signifigantly improved arm strength, anticipation, and offensive understanding in his second year. Bradford's body continues to fill out and I am looking forward to see the progression he has made this offseason, and if he continues to improve at this pace I think he is the best player in this draft class.

His mechanics are somewhat unorthodox and he does not have a cannon, but I love that the ball gets where it needs to go consistently and accurately. He takes the ball from under center far more than other spread option QB's. His footwork and athletic ability are terribly underrated. I also like how he played through the hand injury and subsequent surgery. He wore a cast in his last two games and played incredibly.

As a leader, Bradford has let it happen naturally and IMO it became clear that the OU team looked to him as their unquestioned leader as the year went on. He is soft spoken, but comes off in interviews as confident, extremely intelligent, and thoughtful, while remaining humble. He is focused on the team and the programs success.

Like I said, if he continues his progression, I think he is the elite prospect in this draft. While I see that there will be a lot of doubters and detractors, I am clearly in Bradford's corner... and I believe he will take his game to an elite NFL prospect level as the season unfolds.

Dam8610
05-31-2009, 12:10 PM
If big XII defenses are so terrible why did UF score 24 points only? In case you don't know, that's lower than they scored against EVERY SEC defense. So I don't want to hear the the conference knock on Bradford.

Using one game/one team to say that Big XII defenses were better than SEC defenses last year is just as dumb as using a limited number of games to say Matt Stafford and Brady Quinn didn't get good protection.

Race for the Heisman
05-31-2009, 11:58 PM
Using one game/one team to say that Big XII defenses were better than SEC defenses last year is just as dumb as using a limited number of games to say Matt Stafford and Brady Quinn didn't get good protection.

Hey, if you want to defend your viewpoint that Jay Cutler has been the only pressured high-caliber quarterback prospect in recent memory, fine, but don't take a sideways shot at me like that.

Stafford's line went to pieces last year. Quinn faced some good teams his senior year and was pressured every time Notre Dame didn't play a team like Army. For comparison's sake, assuming they all have pretty good pocket presence, Quinn was sacked 31 times his senior year, Jay Cutler 23, Matt Ryan 21, Matt Stafford 17. Obviously sacks don't tell you anything explicitly considering they are the result of numerous variables, but it is something, which is more than just your offering of your opinion.

Dam8610
06-01-2009, 08:13 PM
Hey, if you want to defend your viewpoint that Jay Cutler has been the only pressured high-caliber quarterback prospect in recent memory, fine, but don't take a sideways shot at me like that.

Stafford's line went to pieces last year. Quinn faced some good teams his senior year and was pressured every time Notre Dame didn't play a team like Army. For comparison's sake, assuming they all have pretty good pocket presence, Quinn was sacked 31 times his senior year, Jay Cutler 23, Matt Ryan 21, Matt Stafford 17. Obviously sacks don't tell you anything explicitly considering they are the result of numerous variables, but it is something, which is more than just your offering of your opinion.

I believe I addressed your post in a reasonable manner, the post you quoted was a shot at this:

Quinn, hate the guy and think he's completely average, but anytime ND actually played someone with a defense, he was pressured all game long. It just so happens ND plays two teams with a defense that rank in the top 50 a year.

...

If you think Matt Stafford had clean pockets then you didn't watch him and you surely didn't see the Alabama or Florida game. They were on national tv.

Not you. As for the sack numbers, college football stats don't really matter all that much to me, I think watching the games is much more important to the evaluation of a prospect, and Jay Cutler was playing in the SEC on the usual whipping boy team. Most of the time he had to evade a lot of pressure to get the ball off, he was seeing almost the caliber of pressure that NFL teams can bring on a pretty much weekly basis, much closer to it than anything Quinn, Stafford, or just about anyone else you can name (Edwards I'd accept as seeing close to an equal amount of pressure, but no one thought nearly as highly of him as they did of Cutler coming out). Quinn and Stafford might have seen the pressure Cutler saw on a near weekly basis in a game or two of each season, it's much different in terms of how it would prepare a player for the next level. Of course, this is JMO, but I watched a lot of all of them, I saw FAR more clean pockets an MUCH more time for Quinn and Stafford than I did for Cutler.

PoopSandwich
06-02-2009, 12:47 AM
Na, Rivers has like a three-quarter delivery. He doesn't have that weird pushing-the-ball thing that Bradford does.

The nearest thing I can think of in recent years is Vince Young, people said that would be no big deal too. Although Young has other issues, and if he was a better QB between the ears maybe his throw wouldn't matter much, I dunno.

bernie kosar

nepg
06-03-2009, 07:22 AM
Danny Wuerffel

parrish_lemar24DBSkins
06-03-2009, 09:39 AM
I saw Danny play a lot in Washington under Spurrier, and he's not a 3/4 or sidearm thrower.
HE just didn't have an arm period.

nepg
06-03-2009, 10:39 AM
He pushed it. I remember trying to emulate his throwing motion when he was in college and then with the Saints. It's hard! The motion is similar to how a girl throws a baseball...

CC.SD
06-03-2009, 02:01 PM
Teel never lost to Syracuse.

This is the nail in the coffin for me as well. Can Clausen please do something to justify the fact that I even know his name?

Dam8610
06-06-2009, 03:16 PM
This is the nail in the coffin for me as well. Can Clausen please do something to justify the fact that I even know his name?

Wasn't he an uber-hyped QB prospect from California? Being on this website and from California, that should be enough for you to know his name.

IndyColtScout
06-06-2009, 04:05 PM
I don't think Bradford currently or will in the future suck.

I don't think he is all-pro material at all, but a career Matt Shaub type QB is very respectful IMO and I think that's what Bradford ends up being.

katnip
06-07-2009, 05:52 PM
I have no idea why. But Bradford reminds me of Joey Harrington. But his ceiling is I guess pretty high, like Phillip Rivers, not elite but above average skills.

jetsfan0099
06-22-2009, 12:01 PM
Bradford reminds me of a Chad Pennington kind of. His arm strength is questionable, he doesn't make that impressive of throws. His OL was amazing and he had all day to throw in most games. I think the QB in this upcoming draft are overrated, people say how Stafford and Sanchez were products of a weak class but I think people underrate them. They would match up with any of the QBs in next years class in the NFL. Stafford and Sanchez played in prosystems and have made NFL type throws, I think both were very good NFL prospects.

abaddon41_80
06-22-2009, 12:15 PM
I don't understand why people say Bradford's arm strength is questionable. He isn't JaMarcus Russell in terms of arm strength but he certainly is not Chad Pennington, even pre-injury Pennington. On a scale of 1-10, 5 being average, Bradford's arm strength is probably about an 8.

jetsfan0099
06-22-2009, 12:30 PM
I don't understand why people say Bradford's arm strength is questionable. He isn't JaMarcus Russell in terms of arm strength but he certainly is not Chad Pennington, even pre-injury Pennington. On a scale of 1-10, 5 being average, Bradford's arm strength is probably about an 8.

Noway is his arm strength that strong, he never impressed me with his arm. Hes average at best with arm strength.



ANother thing about Bradford, he is very thin and looks like he could be a injury prone guy in the NFL as he never has taken many hits in college with that great OL protecting him giving him 10 seconds to throw which won't happen in the NFL especially if he goes high in the draft to a bad team.

Shane P. Hallam
06-22-2009, 02:06 PM
I am definitely scared for Bradford as an NFL prospect. I'd like to see how he develops, but it will continue being tough to gauge in the spread. I'd be very uncomfortable taking him #1 overall.

Nalej
06-22-2009, 02:23 PM
I am definitely scared for Bradford as an NFL prospect. I'd like to see how he develops, but it will continue being tough to gauge in the spread. I'd be very uncomfortable taking him #1 overall.

Exactly. I can see that he has skills but I'd be too iffy to take him so high in the first.
Unless they change their playbook a bit, looks, reads- any team that drafts him will be taking that "high risk-high reward" road in drafting

scottyboy
06-22-2009, 02:24 PM
He's gonna be the Rams first round pick next year. count it

princefielder28
06-22-2009, 02:29 PM
It just depends on what you're willing to take a risk on. Bradford has pinpoint accuracy and decent arm strength while someone like Matthew Stafford had average accuracy and elite arm strength. Then you look at a prospect like Mark Sanchez who falls right in the middle of those two. Obviously there's much more than accuracy and arm strength, but it comes down to what you like most in a prospect.

jth1331
06-22-2009, 05:57 PM
One, I want to point out Jason White wasn't drafted. He had medical issues with his knees and was 25 by the time the 2005 NFL Draft rolled around. His knees were shot by the time he was finished and his tools were no where near as good as Bradford's.

Two, Bradford is a great QB prospect IMO. He has good size, has a decent arm, has great accuracy and good mobility. He had a lot of incompletions due to dropped passes, plus some interceptions were due to the receiver dropping the pass and causing the defender to come down with it.

BigBanger
06-22-2009, 07:42 PM
One, I want to point out Jason White wasn't drafted. He had medical issues with his knees and was 25 by the time the 2005 NFL Draft rolled around. His knees were shot by the time he was finished and his tools were no where near as good as Bradford's.
That's a concern I have for him, but an even bigger concern that just dawned on me was the amount of QBs starting in the NFL right now that played in the watered down Big 12... not just Oklahoma.

Here's the list of starting Big 12 QBs in the NFL (Last year):

That took long. There wasn't a single one.

princefielder28
06-22-2009, 08:13 PM
That's a concern I have for him, but an even bigger concern that just dawned on me was the amount of QBs starting in the NFL right now that played in the watered down Big 12... not just Oklahoma.

Here's the list of starting Big 12 QBs in the NFL (Last year):

That took long. There wasn't a single one.

The argument of where the player goes to school or who the competition is, as general as the Big XII, is pointless because it only takes one to buck the trend. I could see where you could bring it up if the Big XII was constantly producing highly touted NFL QBs, but they're not; they produce very good college QBs but very few of these guys recently have gotten any attention from the NFL.

Calvin & Kevin
06-22-2009, 08:26 PM
That's a concern I have for him, but an even bigger concern that just dawned on me was the amount of QBs starting in the NFL right now that played in the watered down Big 12... not just Oklahoma.

Here's the list of starting Big 12 QBs in the NFL (Last year):

That took long. There wasn't a single one.

Not so fast my friend! Until Brett Favre is officially signed, Sage Rosenfels (Iowa State) is the starter in Minnesota. And Josh Freeman (Kansas State) has at least an outside chance of starting some games in Tampa.

Yeah yeah I know, you said last year, yeah shut up already.

Though I agree with your overall point that it's pathetic that the Big 12 has no legitimate starting QB's, when a conference like the MAC has three (I count Pennington and Leftwich under the MAC because Marhsall was in the MAC when they played).

jth1331
06-22-2009, 09:29 PM
That's a concern I have for him, but an even bigger concern that just dawned on me was the amount of QBs starting in the NFL right now that played in the watered down Big 12... not just Oklahoma.

Here's the list of starting Big 12 QBs in the NFL (Last year):

That took long. There wasn't a single one.

What does that have to do with anything?
It didn't happen last year, so it won't happen in the future?

ninerfan
06-22-2009, 10:26 PM
I wish I sucked as bad as him !! He's gonna sign a sweet deal and have a nice pro career. He may not have the strongest arm but he has intangibles that will make him a winner

SKim172
06-22-2009, 11:42 PM
So, it's the offseason and I'm re-watching old games. Just re-watched the 2008 Fiesta Bowl, the game that highlighted the worst of OU. The game where OU gained more in penalties than in offense for most of the first half.

Bradford struggled a lot, mainly because the OU line couldn't do crap to stop the rush. He had a major problem staring down receivers and, as a result, unable to sense pressure. And there were a lot of blitzers coming in clean. He got strip-sacked early by a rusher straight up the middle because he was looking totally the wrong way. And the more I see it, the more I dislike the way he throws - not the arm motion, but how he throws flatfooted, with very little hip movement. Put some hip into it, man.

Obviously, a lot of these things have since improved the past year. And that weird 3-3-5 stack of WVU probably had a lot to do with his difficulty picking out receivers. But on the other hand, he's gonna have to face blitzing 3-man defenses eventually in the NFL.

etk
06-23-2009, 11:12 AM
It just depends on what you're willing to take a risk on. Bradford has pinpoint accuracy and decent arm strength while someone like Matthew Stafford had average accuracy and elite arm strength. Then you look at a prospect like Mark Sanchez who falls right in the middle of those two. Obviously there's much more than accuracy and arm strength, but it comes down to what you like most in a prospect.

Those are 2 pretty big misconceptions right there. Bradford has pinpoint accuracy....short of 15 yards. That's all he throws so that's all you see therefore you reach the conclusion that he's accurate.

Matthew Stafford has average accuracy....beyond 15 yards. Stafford throws the tough (NFL) passes and you can't get those every time. He's money on curls and slants, just like Bradford. Say you placed Stafford inside Oklahoma's protective steel bubble (aka pocket) where he could scratch his chin, do 10 pushups and then step up and attempt an 8-yard pass to Gresham in the flat....don't you think he would complete a ton of passes and look pretty darn accurate? You have to look beyond statistics like completion % to truly evaluate QBs. Bradford would get eaten alive on Georgia. Put Stafford on OU and they probably would've beaten Florida.

Also, Mark Sanchez might fall in the middle of the 2 in terms of arm strength, but he's definitely more accurate than Bradford. Sanchez actually throws the deep ball, post, seam, fade, deep out, w/e. His passes are much more diverse as he plays in a sophisticated pro offense.

EDIT: Josh Freeman doesn't have a chance of starting this year in Tampa. It's a battle between Leftwich and McCown.

Addict
06-23-2009, 11:23 AM
I wish I sucked as bad as him !! He's gonna sign a sweet deal and have a nice pro career. He may not have the strongest arm but he has intangibles that will make him a winner

that's very mature. "lol, ur discussion is futile, HE'LL BE RICH!!!"

jth1331
06-25-2009, 07:41 PM
So, it's the offseason and I'm re-watching old games. Just re-watched the 2008 Fiesta Bowl, the game that highlighted the worst of OU. The game where OU gained more in penalties than in offense for most of the first half.

Bradford struggled a lot, mainly because the OU line couldn't do crap to stop the rush. He had a major problem staring down receivers and, as a result, unable to sense pressure. And there were a lot of blitzers coming in clean. He got strip-sacked early by a rusher straight up the middle because he was looking totally the wrong way. And the more I see it, the more I dislike the way he throws - not the arm motion, but how he throws flatfooted, with very little hip movement. Put some hip into it, man.

Obviously, a lot of these things have since improved the past year. And that weird 3-3-5 stack of WVU probably had a lot to do with his difficulty picking out receivers. But on the other hand, he's gonna have to face blitzing 3-man defenses eventually in the NFL.

IMO, its ridiculous to come to a conclusion on a QB based off a meaningless bowl game in his first year starting as a redshirt freshman.

Those are 2 pretty big misconceptions right there. Bradford has pinpoint accuracy....short of 15 yards. That's all he throws so that's all you see therefore you reach the conclusion that he's accurate.

Matthew Stafford has average accuracy....beyond 15 yards. Stafford throws the tough (NFL) passes and you can't get those every time. He's money on curls and slants, just like Bradford. Say you placed Stafford inside Oklahoma's protective steel bubble (aka pocket) where he could scratch his chin, do 10 pushups and then step up and attempt an 8-yard pass to Gresham in the flat....don't you think he would complete a ton of passes and look pretty darn accurate? You have to look beyond statistics like completion % to truly evaluate QBs. Bradford would get eaten alive on Georgia. Put Stafford on OU and they probably would've beaten Florida.

Also, Mark Sanchez might fall in the middle of the 2 in terms of arm strength, but he's definitely more accurate than Bradford. Sanchez actually throws the deep ball, post, seam, fade, deep out, w/e. His passes are much more diverse as he plays in a sophisticated pro offense.

EDIT: Josh Freeman doesn't have a chance of starting this year in Tampa. It's a battle between Leftwich and McCown.

Its also a misconception that Bradford can't throw a completion without the WR being wide open. He actually can throw an accurate ball on those medium to deep passes.

jtcharger24
07-12-2009, 11:55 AM
So, it's the offseason and I'm re-watching old games. Just re-watched the 2008 Fiesta Bowl, the game that highlighted the worst of OU. The game where OU gained more in penalties than in offense for most of the first half.

Bradford struggled a lot, mainly because the OU line couldn't do crap to stop the rush. He had a major problem staring down receivers and, as a result, unable to sense pressure. And there were a lot of blitzers coming in clean. He got strip-sacked early by a rusher straight up the middle because he was looking totally the wrong way. And the more I see it, the more I dislike the way he throws - not the arm motion, but how he throws flatfooted, with very little hip movement. Put some hip into it, man.

Obviously, a lot of these things have since improved the past year. And that weird 3-3-5 stack of WVU probably had a lot to do with his difficulty picking out receivers. But on the other hand, he's gonna have to face blitzing 3-man defenses eventually in the NFL.

You do realize he was a freshman in that game?

Dam8610
07-12-2009, 12:37 PM
That's a concern I have for him, but an even bigger concern that just dawned on me was the amount of QBs starting in the NFL right now that played in the watered down Big 12... not just Oklahoma.

Here's the list of starting Big 12 QBs in the NFL (Last year):

That took long. There wasn't a single one.

Didn't Seneca Wallace go to Iowa State? I'd count him as a starting QB, considering he started a large majority of the Seahawks games last year.

YAYareaRB
07-12-2009, 12:41 PM
That's a concern I have for him, but an even bigger concern that just dawned on me was the amount of QBs starting in the NFL right now that played in the watered down Big 12... not just Oklahoma.

Here's the list of starting Big 12 QBs in the NFL (Last year):

That took long. There wasn't a single one.

That merely proves correlation..

Brent
07-12-2009, 12:47 PM
That merely proves correlation..
sadly, that is enough for some people.

SKim172
07-12-2009, 04:48 PM
IMO, its ridiculous to come to a conclusion on a QB based off a meaningless bowl game in his first year starting as a redshirt freshman.

You do realize he was a freshman in that game?


Ahem.
Obviously, a lot of these things have since improved the past year.
I'd hardly call the Fiesta Bowl meaningless.

It wasn't at all conclusive, so it's not a conclusion. But my personal belief is that the biggest weaknesses of a QB are the early ones that they revert back to. When a great QB makes mistakes, it's the same mistakes they made when they first began.

Obviously, Bradford is not the same QB as the one from two years ago. I'm actually kind of a fan of his. But it's not totally invalid to note what his mistakes were in that game. And it's nothing conclusive.

In any case, let's agree to disagree.

Saints 4 Lyfe
07-26-2009, 06:17 PM
Sam's arm won't be a question this year. Dude bulked up.

http://i31.tinypic.com/2zsmddi.jpg

http://i30.tinypic.com/15q25ht.jpg

IndyColtScout
07-27-2009, 11:03 AM
He makes Colts look like a skinny Chase Daniels there.

Gordon09
07-28-2009, 12:43 PM
You make some valid points but overall the positives far outweigh the negatives. It's just the norm now that the top QB prospect will be the subject of excessive analysis and a lot of that tends to be negative.

I agree with this guy right here. Of course people are going to pick him apart.

TheGM
08-05-2009, 06:57 PM
As he stands right now, I would take Sam Bradford in round 4.

That has got to be one of the dumbest statements of all time. After just two years there was a real debate about who would be picked number one Bradford or Stafford, until Sam decided to come back to school. If Sam Bradford took next year off he would still be at least a second round pick. The kid isn't perfect don't get me wrong, but he has a skill set that is better than many starting NFL QBs.
I actually re-watched the BCS game against Florida and their fantastic defense on HULU. If you are going to tell me that Bradford didn't impress you than I have to question your evaluation skills.

Staubach12
08-08-2009, 09:42 PM
It just depends on what you're willing to take a risk on. Bradford has pinpoint accuracy and decent arm strength while someone like Matthew Stafford had average accuracy and elite arm strength. Then you look at a prospect like Mark Sanchez who falls right in the middle of those two. Obviously there's much more than accuracy and arm strength, but it comes down to what you like most in a prospect.

There's a lot more to consider in looking at a QB than arm strength and accuracy.

JFLO
08-08-2009, 10:16 PM
This thread started when a couple days before I took a break from this website, which was about three or four months ago...I think

Saints-Tigers
08-16-2009, 12:26 AM
Not a fan of Bradford as a pro QB at all to be honest, but you can't expect honest discussion with such a biased topic title.

CashmoneyDrew
08-16-2009, 01:08 AM
I'm a big fan of Sam Bradford. I think at this point his positives outweigh his negatives. However, if I was drafting him it would be preferable to be able to sit him for a year.

FuzzyGopher
09-07-2009, 02:56 PM
How does this injury affect his draft stock? It seems like at a minimum he is going to miss a good chuck of the season, at least 6 weeks and maybe even the whole thing. Does he stay another year or does he take the risk and enter the draft?

Thumper
09-07-2009, 03:02 PM
IMO he is no longer entering this draft, not enough time to make an impact and if he enters he will go lower than he should and he would lose millions, he will be the best QB in 2011.

Babylon
09-07-2009, 03:02 PM
How does this injury affect his draft stock? It seems like at a minimum he is going to miss a good chuck of the season, at least 6 weeks and maybe even the whole thing. Does he stay another year or does he take the risk and enter the draft?

Unless more was found to be wrong with the shoulder today it is hard to say when he would return. Certainly they'll shoot for the Red River shootout in early October. I think his status for the NFL is pretty set in that he'll most likely be the 1st (2nd at worst) QB taken. There are enough teams like St Louis, San Fran, Seattle,Jacksonville, Carolina that need QBs i dont think he'll be off the board for long.

BigBanger
09-07-2009, 03:05 PM
I don't know yet, but I thought he looked pretty good before he got hurt. I was mildly surprised. I don't put a lot of stock into BYU' defense, but the timing and rhythm he had with the offense was obviously much better compared to the backup. He has mastered the offense and makes quick reads and gets the ball out extremely quickly. I thought they took the ball out of his hands way too much early on and kept BYU in the game.

The injury wont be a problem unless he misses a majority of the season (Playing in 2 games or something) or has lingering problems with it. If a team thinks he's a top five caliber before the injury and he only plays in 6 or 7 games this year, then it will have no impact on his draft status.

etk
09-07-2009, 06:32 PM
This better take longer than a month to heal. I'd love to see our DL food on Landry Jones.

PossibleCabbage
09-07-2009, 06:48 PM
This better take longer than a month to heal. I'd love to see our DL food on Landry Jones.

From what I've read, it's either a grade II or a grade III AC joint sprain.

Grade III is "shut it down son, you need surgery."

Grade II is "immobilize for 4 weeks, in 6-8 weeks you can start lifting weights again."

So it's looking like you get your wish.

At this point, I don't think there's really any way that Bradford declares for the 2010 draft.

SKim172
09-07-2009, 08:21 PM
I agree that he's unlikely to enter the draft now, unless he comes back quick and wins a Heisman and a national title in limited play.

However, if Landry Jones struggles to win games, then that might help his stock by proving he's not just a product of the system.

PossibleCabbage
09-07-2009, 08:31 PM
However, if Landry Jones struggles to win games, then that might help his stock by proving he's not just a product of the system.

I don't think that most NFL scouts will be all that impressed by "I played better than a true freshman (who wasn't groomed to start in the offseason) in this system." I mean, it might help him but I don't think it would prove anything.

If anything, his stock would be hurt if Landry plays really well. I don't think, as a rule, any player can really help his draft stock while being unable to play due to injury, regardless of what other players can do. You help your stock by playing (well).

Sniper
09-08-2009, 07:31 AM
Landry Jones isn't a true freshman.

Babylon
09-08-2009, 11:06 AM
I agree that he's unlikely to enter the draft now, unless he comes back quick and wins a Heisman and a national title in limited play.

However, if Landry Jones struggles to win games, then that might help his stock by proving he's not just a product of the system.

And come back for another year to risk injury? Sam Bradford will be in the 2010 draft.

tjsunstein
09-08-2009, 02:17 PM
I don't think his injury effects his draft stock that much if he is back in 2-3 weeks. He looked really good before the injury, being it was the first game of the year. He will still have enough time to make an impact and hopefully play for some sort of BCS game.

PossibleCabbage
09-08-2009, 04:16 PM
I'm really very confused now. The reports are that Bradford has a grade 3 AC joint sprain *and* that he should be back in 2-4 weeks.

Having had some experience with shoulder injuries myself, he shouldn't be allowed to even use the arm for 4 weeks, and shouldn't do anything strenuous with it for 6-8 lest he risk long term injury that will require more invasive surgery.

Is Sam Bradford some sort of superhuman with unnatural shoulders, or are the OU doctors doing him a disservice?

BigBanger
09-21-2009, 02:02 AM
What does everyone think about Landry Jones? He put 336 yards and 6 TDs against Tulsa. Anyone think the system makes him look better than he actually is, or is Landry Jones a potential first round draft pick as well? Does his crazy numbers have any impact on Bradford and his draft stock?

Staubach12
09-21-2009, 02:30 PM
What does everyone think about Landry Jones? He put 336 yards and 6 TDs against Tulsa. Anyone think the system makes him look better than he actually is, or is Landry Jones a potential first round draft pick as well? Does his crazy numbers have any impact on Bradford and his draft stock?

I think you will here a lot about it leading up to the draft but right now, I want to see Jones put up big numbers against a higher caliber team before we jump to any big conclusions about the Oklahoma offense, Sam Bradford, or Landry Jones.

dj825
09-22-2009, 04:34 AM
i do find it pretty funny that Jones put up better numbers than Bradford has ever put up granted it was against Toledo but still it was his first game. I never really watched Bradford play before seeing him against Texas Tech in the OP the NC against Florida and seeing other videos of him made me agree with the OP to an extent. i dont think hell fall to the 4th when he enters the draft but that doesnt mean i think he doesnt deserve to fall to the 4th round. my biggest knock is that he reminds me of Jake Delhomme because he stares down his recievers the same way Jake does.He also does only make 1 or 2 reads usually on the same side of the field. Bradford is an overhyped QB that to me has more potential to be a huge bust then be a huge boom.

Bald_81
10-13-2009, 02:06 AM
I would like BigBanger to analyze and assess Sam Bradford from these highlights:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V0k8DqFOZMg

Quick (and somewhat amateurish) impressions:

Sam looks pretty darn impressive for someone who had a significant shoulder injury. His arm strength seems to be inconsistent at some points during the highlights, so that could be a cause for concern. At 1:12 (although he is flushed from the pocket) and at 1:52 are where his arm looks just average. Then again, he did throw the ball forty-nine times and he still had some zip on his passes towards the end of the game. I would say his arm was above-average on the day which should bode well moving forward as he continues to recover.

BigBanger said that Bradford stares down his targets. On some occasions he does still stare down his receiver, but there is noticeable improvement in this regard. At 0:53, Sam does a nice job of looking up field before quickly turning to the sideline and delivering the ball. Arm strength is just okay, but he places the ball away from the defender giving his receiver the best chance of making the play. At 3:19 (one of his best throws), he looks right before quickly turning left and delivering a strike to his receiver. No hesitation on his part as he quickly turns and throws to his receiver. The fact that he is making strides in this area really has me excited.

Best pass:

4:27. Shows good feel for the pressure before rolling out and hitting his receiver on a comeback route at the sideline. Arm strength looks good, quick release, and shows good mobility rolling out with a nice fluid throw. This pass impresses me because it is essential for the WCO the Rams are using.

Worst pass:

1:52. This pass is one that makes me uneasy. Not only does he throw it with no zip, he also waits until his receiver gets open for a full second before delivering the ball. He should be able to throw the ball just before the receiver makes his break. That is the sign of a great quarterback.

BigBanger, I know you said you don't like using highlights as a means for evaluation, but I would like to know whether or not you see improvements based on Bradford from 2008 to 2009. I want the Rams to get the right QB in April so every input and analysis I read is critical.

BigBanger
10-13-2009, 01:34 PM
I would like BigBanger to analyze and assess Sam Bradford from these highlights:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V0k8DqFOZMg

Quick (and somewhat amateurish) impressions:

Sam looks pretty darn impressive for someone who had a significant shoulder injury. His arm strength seems to be inconsistent at some points during the highlights, so that could be a cause for concern. At 1:12 (although he is flushed from the pocket) and at 1:52 are where his arm looks just average. Then again, he did throw the ball forty-nine times and he still had some zip on his passes towards the end of the game. I would say his arm was above-average on the day which should bode well moving forward as he continues to recover.

BigBanger said that Bradford stares down his targets. On some occasions he does still stare down his receiver, but there is noticeable improvement in this regard. At 0:53, Sam does a nice job of looking up field before quickly turning to the sideline and delivering the ball. Arm strength is just okay, but he places the ball away from the defender giving his receiver the best chance of making the play. At 3:19 (one of his best throws), he looks right before quickly turning left and delivering a strike to his receiver. No hesitation on his part as he quickly turns and throws to his receiver. The fact that he is making strides in this area really has me excited.

Best pass:

4:27. Shows good feel for the pressure before rolling out and hitting his receiver on a comeback route at the sideline. Arm strength looks good, quick release, and shows good mobility rolling out with a nice fluid throw. This pass impresses me because it is essential for the WCO the Rams are using.

Worst pass:

1:52. This pass is one that makes me uneasy. Not only does he throw it with no zip, he also waits until his receiver gets open for a full second before delivering the ball. He should be able to throw the ball just before the receiver makes his break. That is the sign of a great quarterback.

BigBanger, I know you said you don't like using highlights as a means for evaluation, but I would like to know whether or not you see improvements based on Bradford from 2008 to 2009. I want the Rams to get the right QB in April so every input and analysis I read is critical.
The throw at 3:19 is more of what you're looking for, but the guy is wide open and Bradford has no pressure (like 90% of those throws). I just don't see much here to even talk about.

The throw at 4:27 is one of the easiest throws you can make. That is very low difficulty throw at the next level. What do you think made that his best throw? Him being on the move? It being one of his longer throws? Again, I see a wide open throwing lane, hitting an open target, where he's on the move towards his target. If that's an impressive throw or his most impressive, then I think there's a problem. That is as easy a throw as you're going to make at the next level. Saying he had this great pocket presence and all that... I think you're looking for things that aren't there. I think you're trying to convince yourself of something to try to make it more accomplished... when it's an easy read and easy throw. That's what that system does, it creates one-on-one match ups, with easy reads of the defense. That DT raped the OG, and he wasn't close to the QB... the splits help... stretching the defense makes it so much easier, even to do something as simple as buy time in the pocket.

I thought Matt Stafford was the BPA in last years draft and I think he was the third/fourth best QB prospect I've seen (Philip Rivers, Jay Cutler, Carson Palmer). Here's just a quick example why.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QcvSDUMw-XQ&feature=related

Just look at the first two throws... that's an NFL arm. That second throw is extremely high difficulty. That's a Matt Ryan type-game winning throw he made against Va Tech (Victor Harris with tight coverage)... look at where he is on the field (far hash)... look at him look near side, then look all the way to the other side field and quickly get rid of the ball... what's that? 40-50 yards in the air... some pretty tight coverage... ball placement is shockingly impressive (look where the defender is... if he throws low, it's a pick)... I haven't seen Bradford make that kind of throw, and I don't think he can. And honestly, that's not even one of his best throws. That should be impressive, not jaw-dropping, but impressive. I have yet to see a throw by Bradford that even impresses. Stafford made a throw to AJ Green, extremely similar to second throw in that highlight, but the coverage (double) was even tighter and the ball placement even better, and the ball was 60 yards, I kid you not, 60 yards in the air... on a ******* rope. That's a Matt Stafford throw. The throw I talked about with Matt Ryan (That whole 4th QT against VA Tech), that's a Matt Ryan throw. All the great QBs I've seen, they have that throw that is simply jaw-dropping. It should catch your eye. I should think, "I wanna see more of this guy." If I saw a great throw in that highlight, I would have went to ESPN360 and watched every offensive play by OU. Every time Bradford threw the ball, I would that play 3 or 4 times. I would look at everything, but I didn't so, I wont even waste my time seeing that kind of coverage and those kind of throws.

Take a look at the throw at 1:18... that is some tight coverage with a closing safety... that's all arm... again, I think if that's Bradford, that's a pick. A simple smash route where the corner hasn't fully bit on the back in the flat, but he paused just long enough to create a window. I think Bradford doesn't anticipate him getting open (since I don't ever see him throw to a WR when a WR is even with a defender, he waits until the WR is past the defender) and waits for him to get open, and ends up throwing it late... creating a turnover possibility for the safety... or if he has the arm to make up for the late decision, he gets his WR laid out. I don't think he has the arm, so I think that would be a pick. OU runs a ton of smash routes, but they have two WRs to the same side, which makes for an easy dump off to the back since the CBs can't come up. 25 yards later... what did you see? Nothing, so you don't even get to see Bradford attempt those throws since the system doesn't ask him to (1:41 of your video shows you exactly what I'm talking about). He could wind up being a great QB, but since I see so little NFL caliber reads and throws, I have so much doubt that I couldn't justify taking him in the first two or three rounds.

The 55 yard throw is one of his worst in that highlight... and it's all due to his mechanics, he takes his time flipping his hips and setting his feet and doesn't really get into it and drive the ball downfield. It hung up a little bit.

I think that's from his sophomore year. His footwork got much better going into his junior year, but it was still an issue. It's better as a rookie in Detroit. And that's what you look for... a guy progressing. That was also the first highlight I came across when I searched his name on youtube, so it's not like I intentionally looked for his most impressive throws... I just got some mildly good quality video and those were the throws I saw, which he made on a weekly basis. That's an NFL arm, in an NFL system (even though it's very bland), with NFL reads and NFL accuracy.

Bradford might have that great completion percentage, but I think he only has a chance of making one those throws. Stafford showed me everything I look for in a QB.

In a nutshell... just from those quick highlights... that's what I see... I think that's difference. If you don't see that, then you don't see that. I wont try to convince you, but that's what I look for.


I also thought the Rams made a mistake in passing on Mark Sanchez, not a huge one, but I thought they went with the wrong player. I thought Seattle made an even bigger mistake since they took a LB. You can justify a potential franchise LT, but not a SAM backer.

JeffSamardzijaIRISH
10-13-2009, 02:37 PM
BigBanger, you said you don't like Clausen, but here

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fg-76xzGABE&feature=related

he makes an NFL-level throw, similar to the one Stafford made to Massaqoui in that highlight video.

Bald_81
10-13-2009, 02:39 PM
That's a fair assessment, but to me at least it looks as if Bradford's arm strength is night and day compared to last year. He certainly has the build to add more muscle (he added 10-15 lbs. this past off season) so it's certainly not a stretch to think he can't do that in the pros as well. Let's not forget Tom Brady, or to a lesser extent Aaron Rodgers. Both did not have a particularly impressive arm coming out of college, and in Rodgers regard he had to correct his throwing motion -- he held the ball too high coming out of a snap at Cal, limiting his range of motion on his throws thus not delivering a particularly impressive ball. He corrected that in the pros and now he has one of the best arms in the league.

What I really wanted to know from you is just by watching him so far this year, how has he looked in 2009 compared to 2008. Getting better? Or much of the same?

Babylon
10-13-2009, 02:49 PM
Bradford cant be expected to put up numbers like he did last year having been injurred and playing behind basically a new offensive line. Still think he's the best WCO type out there and would make sense playing in the heartland for a team like the St. Louis Rams.

BigBanger
10-13-2009, 03:08 PM
What I really wanted to know from you is just by watching him so far this year, how has he looked in 2009 compared to 2008. Getting better? Or much of the same?
I saw very little that makes me think anything has changed, but I'll let you guess how much stock I put into him throwing for 300-and-whatever-yards against Baylor. My next reply should answer your question.

Bradford cant be expected to put up numbers like he did last year having been injurred and playing behind basically a new offensive line. Still think he's the best WCO type out there and would make sense playing in the heartland for a team like the St. Louis Rams.
Don't take this wrong way, but if you give two ******* shits about Sam Bradford' numbers at the end of the year, then you have no idea what to look for in an NFL QB prospect. His numbers, no matter how good or bad, are entirely worthless. New offensive line? So what? Stafford had a bunch of freshman and sophomores. You should be happy to see him get pressure. You want to see how he handles it. Lets see him get hit a few times. Lets see how his mechanics change, his footwork... Matt Ryan had no talent around him... he made BC a very good offensive team. That's the mark of a great QB.




Irish homer (not gonna spell your name out), I think Clausen is overrated. If you want me to compare him to Bradford, then there's no comparison. He's ten times better, ten times. That is a great throw, but it's not really the same as the throw I pointed out with Stafford to Massaquoi. It was a very good throw. The level of difficulty? Fairly high, but it was single coverage... no safety help... staring him down... never even bothered looking off a safety since he didn't have to... it's a throw that he should make if he's as good as people say he is. I've seen JaMarcus Russell make that throw more times than I could count at LSU. What was Russell' biggest problem? Staring down receivers.

EDIT: I just watched that again and I missed the CB blitz the first time around... that being the reason why he stared left the whole way. From that angle, I can't see where the safety was positioned before the snap, but, like I said, it is a great throw. It is nothing like the throw Stafford made in that highlight... absolutely nothing like it.

FUNBUNCHER
10-13-2009, 04:47 PM
Not a fan of Bradford as a pro QB at all to be honest, but you can't expect honest discussion with such a biased topic title.
+1

I'm kind of neutral on Bradford, but any attempt at an honest discussion of Bradford's pros/cons as a future NFL QB are skewed by the thread title, IMO.

Bradford sux??:eek: Come on now...

SKim172
10-13-2009, 05:39 PM
I'm a complete amateur and no one should ever take what I say seriously, especially when it comes to QBs.

I've already said a lot in this thread (every time it's been brought back from the dead). I don't hate Bradford. The arm strength, I think, is good enough - not great, but good enough. What I hated then, and still hate, is his footwork. I see the guy throw flatfooted far too often. He's improved, but he still does it. I think that explains his somewhat inconsistent arm strength - sometimes gets his hips into the throw, sometimes he just doesn't do it.

And I still contend that he needs a better sense of the pocket. I brought up the WVU game before - I know that was ages ago, and he's improved greatly. But it doesn't seem to be second nature to him, that instinct.

Again, complete amateur, don't listen to me. I thought Matt Ryan was a big bust risk. Shows you what I know.

Geason Noceur
10-13-2009, 06:08 PM
I would like BigBanger to analyze and assess Sam Bradford from these highlights:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V0k8DqFOZMg

Quick (and somewhat amateurish) impressions:

Sam looks pretty darn impressive for someone who had a significant shoulder injury. His arm strength seems to be inconsistent at some points during the highlights, so that could be a cause for concern. At 1:12 (although he is flushed from the pocket) and at 1:52 are where his arm looks just average. Then again, he did throw the ball forty-nine times and he still had some zip on his passes towards the end of the game. I would say his arm was above-average on the day which should bode well moving forward as he continues to recover.

BigBanger said that Bradford stares down his targets. On some occasions he does still stare down his receiver, but there is noticeable improvement in this regard. At 0:53, Sam does a nice job of looking up field before quickly turning to the sideline and delivering the ball. Arm strength is just okay, but he places the ball away from the defender giving his receiver the best chance of making the play. At 3:19 (one of his best throws), he looks right before quickly turning left and delivering a strike to his receiver. No hesitation on his part as he quickly turns and throws to his receiver. The fact that he is making strides in this area really has me excited.

Best pass:

4:27. Shows good feel for the pressure before rolling out and hitting his receiver on a comeback route at the sideline. Arm strength looks good, quick release, and shows good mobility rolling out with a nice fluid throw. This pass impresses me because it is essential for the WCO the Rams are using.

Worst pass:

1:52. This pass is one that makes me uneasy. Not only does he throw it with no zip, he also waits until his receiver gets open for a full second before delivering the ball. He should be able to throw the ball just before the receiver makes his break. That is the sign of a great quarterback.

BigBanger, I know you said you don't like using highlights as a means for evaluation, but I would like to know whether or not you see improvements based on Bradford from 2008 to 2009. I want the Rams to get the right QB in April so every input and analysis I read is critical.

Not trying to bash Bradford, but the guy has not been challenged very much at OU. From what I can tell from that highlight video, the guy has good time to throw (What is he going to do if he gets taken high in the draft by a team with a crappy Oline?). He's rarely asked to make difficult throws, much less difficult pro-style throws with pressure on his face. Very few of his throws are on the air for more than 15 yards, and his WRs get a lot of YAC. He's mostly out of the shotgun, and when he's not it's too hand the ball off. In the OU games that I've watched, he doesn't make any decisions at the LOS. He always looks to the sideline to make the smallest change. In addition to that, OU's running game looks dominant. Bradford has a lot of help at OU. Put all of that together and add injury prone to the list and things start looking questionable to me.

Babylon
10-13-2009, 07:10 PM
Not trying to bash Bradford, but the guy has not been challenged very much at OU. From what I can tell from that highlight video, the guy has good time to throw (What is he going to do if he gets taken high in the draft by a team with a crappy Oline?). He's rarely asked to make difficult throws, much less difficult pro-style throws with pressure on his face. Very few of his throws are on the air for more than 15 yards, and his WRs get a lot of YAC. He's mostly out of the shotgun, and when he's not it's too hand the ball off. In the OU games that I've watched, he doesn't make any decisions at the LOS. He always looks to the sideline to make the smallest change. In addition to that, OU's running game looks dominant. Bradford has a lot of help at OU. Put all of that together and add injury prone to the list and things start looking questionable to me.

You could probably say the same thing about Jimmy Clausen who doesnt throw deep that much and when he does he lobs the ball up for grabs.

As for Bradford being injury prone he had the seperated shoulder, how does that translate to injury prone?

BigBanger
10-13-2009, 07:15 PM
+1

I'm kind of neutral on Bradford, but any attempt at an honest discussion of Bradford's pros/cons as a future NFL QB are skewed by the thread title, IMO.

Bradford sux??:eek: Come on now...
Why is my opinion skewed? If I said Andre Woodson was a 6th round pick two games into his senior season (when everyone had him as a potential top 10 pick), and I made a post saying he sucked, then went into detail describing why I felt he sucked, would you think my opinion was skewed?

I only ask because I did exactly that during his senior year, and I got the same type responses I got in this thread.

If you think he's a top 10 player, I think your opinion is skewed, because I don't see a single thing that would make someone think that. I haven't come across a single person that could give me a reason for them liking him so much.


These are the great things said about Sam Bradford in this thread:

I liked that youtube clip because it showed that Bradford didn't exclusively play out of ther shotgun.

Bradford is a QB who processes info on the field quickly and gets rid of the ball, he's not playing in one or two read system. I've always liked how he spreads the ball to all his receivers, which tells me he has great vision for the entire field.

You make some valid points but overall the positives far outweigh the negatives.

He is a pinpoint passer and is sick accuracy-wise compared to this year's #1 pick Matthew Stafford.

His accuracy redeems him as a prospect in my eyes.

I love how people bring up Bradford's game against Florida as a knock against him. Stafford played 10 times worse than Bradford against Florida.

As for your criticism that he dumps off too much, the Colts throw to their RBs in the flats a lot, and the Patriots run a ton of WR screens, does that make Peyton Manning and Tom Brady terrible QBs?

What's wrong with a 6'4 220 QB with pinpoint accuracy thats extremely poised under pressure? Sam Bradford is a great QB, he's smart, knows how to manage a game, plays cool, and can make any throw he wants to.

Mike Teel> Matt Stafford>BigBanger

I'd take him to run a WCO.

Against Texas he had no time at all. He had a great game anyway and showed great mobility.

He's not in a one or 2 read system at Oklahoma, the kid has an uncanny abilitiy to survey the whole field quickly and get rid of the ball. Because he's able to make his reads so swiftly, it may look like it's a system with minimum reads, but Bradford chooses receivers based on coverage and patterns run.

Who are you to say he only makes 2 reads a play??? I didn't know we had an OU coach in the house! He's better than McCoy, #2 behind Tebow, because he has great accuracy, great size for a QB, he's extremely efficient, HE KNOWS HIS OFFENSE, doesn't make silly mistakes, and throws a hella tight spiral. Stop trying to bash a guy who consistently wins and makes good throws.

NFL coaches get paid to develop these guys into stars.
So to say Bradford sucks, is ********, he's a college star.

This topic sucks. The only real knock that scouts are worried about is that Bradford does not get touched when he drops back. Everything has been a little too easy for him. His jersey goes unwashed for weeks.

If big XII defenses are so terrible why did UF score 24 points only? In case you don't know, that's lower than they scored against EVERY SEC defense. So I don't want to hear the the conference knock on Bradford.


I am a big fan of Sam Bradford. I look at him as an elite pro prospect on par with Stafford and Sanchez, or even better. He is in no way a finished product at this point, but I really like what he has done in two years and I think he is ahead of where Matt Stafford was after 2 years of starting experience. Bradford showed incredible progression from year one to year two. He also showed signifigantly improved arm strength, anticipation, and offensive understanding in his second year. Bradford's body continues to fill out and I am looking forward to see the progression he has made this offseason, and if he continues to improve at this pace I think he is the best player in this draft class.

His mechanics are somewhat unorthodox and he does not have a cannon, but I love that the ball gets where it needs to go consistently and accurately. He takes the ball from under center far more than other spread option QB's. His footwork and athletic ability are terribly underrated. I also like how he played through the hand injury and subsequent surgery. He wore a cast in his last two games and played incredibly.

As a leader, Bradford has let it happen naturally and IMO it became clear that the OU team looked to him as their unquestioned leader as the year went on. He is soft spoken, but comes off in interviews as confident, extremely intelligent, and thoughtful, while remaining humble. He is focused on the team and the programs success.

Like I said, if he continues his progression, I think he is the elite prospect in this draft. While I see that there will be a lot of doubters and detractors, I am clearly in Bradford's corner... and I believe he will take his game to an elite NFL prospect level as the season unfolds.

I don't think Bradford currently or will in the future suck.

I don't think he is all-pro material at all, but a career Matt Shaub type QB is very respectful IMO and I think that's what Bradford ends up being.

I don't understand why people say Bradford's arm strength is questionable. He isn't JaMarcus Russell in terms of arm strength but he certainly is not Chad Pennington, even pre-injury Pennington. On a scale of 1-10, 5 being average, Bradford's arm strength is probably about an 8.

He's gonna be the Rams first round pick next year. count it

Bradford has pinpoint accuracy and decent arm strength while someone like Matthew Stafford had average accuracy and elite arm strength.

Two, Bradford is a great QB prospect IMO. He has good size, has a decent arm, has great accuracy and good mobility. He had a lot of incompletions due to dropped passes, plus some interceptions were due to the receiver dropping the pass and causing the defender to come down with it.


I wish I sucked as bad as him !! He's gonna sign a sweet deal and have a nice pro career. He may not have the strongest arm but he has intangibles that will make him a winner

He actually can throw an accurate ball on those medium to deep passes.

Sam's arm won't be a question this year. Dude bulked up.

If Sam Bradford took next year off he would still be at least a second round pick. The kid isn't perfect don't get me wrong, but he has a skill set that is better than many starting NFL QBs.
I actually re-watched the BCS game against Florida and their fantastic defense on HULU. If you are going to tell me that Bradford didn't impress you than I have to question your evaluation skills.

I'm a big fan of Sam Bradford. I think at this point his positives outweigh his negatives.

Now, if there was some reasoning or evidence...

Malaka
10-13-2009, 07:24 PM
Why is my opinion skewed? If I said Andre Woodson was a 6th round pick two games into his senior season (when everyone had him as a potential top 10 pick), and I made a post saying he sucked, then went into detail describing why I felt he sucked, would you think my opinion was skewed?

I only ask because I did exactly that during his senior year, and I got the same type responses I got in this thread.

If you think he's a top 10 player, I think your opinion is skewed, because I don't see a single thing that would make someone think that. I haven't come across a single person that could give me a reason for them liking him so much.


These are the great things said about Sam Bradford in this thread:

























































Now, if there was some reasoning or evidence...

Where's your proof? All I can say is Bradford looked like a top 10 pick coming off his injury, go watch the game. His release was lightning quick, he moved well in the pocket, made a couple of big throws, and looked very accurate.

Now do I think Bradford is the best QB in the draft? No... I like Jake Locker... but I do think Bradford is a top 15 pick.

Geason Noceur
10-13-2009, 10:09 PM
You could probably say the same thing about Jimmy Clausen who doesnt throw deep that much and when he does he lobs the ball up for grabs.

As for Bradford being injury prone he had the seperated shoulder, how does that translate to injury prone?

Is not just the shoulder. He's been injured before.

Concussion (http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/spt/stories/111907dnspooulede.1c73d20.html)
Left hand (http://collegesportsblog.dallasnews.com/archives/2008/11/oklahoma-qb-bradford-has-torn-ligaments.html)
http://assets.nydailynews.com/img/2008/12/14/amd_bradford-heisman.jpg

FUNBUNCHER
10-13-2009, 10:30 PM
Big Banger, I never said anything about where Bradford should/would be picked in the draft, my only point was to say that the term 'sucks' is a very daming indictment of a player.

It implies IMO he will amount to nothing in the NFL and lacks the necesary skills to play in the pros.

Look, I thought Ryan was WAY overrated and that Sanchez would bust. I wanted Leaf over Manning. I've also had opinions about players that were on the money too, like anyone else who tries to predict how college players will succeed in the pros.

My point is, you make a strong case against Bradford, however, because he rarely has faced much adversity in the pocket playing at OU, and since the scheme he plays in has yet to produce a top flight NFL QB, there are legitimate question marks about what kind of player Bradford ultimately will become.

Still, I'd take a chance on him if I needed a QB in the 1st. Bradford brings skills to the table that can't be coached, his accuracy at times is otherworldly, he throws a very catchable ball, he's a better athlete than many give him credit for, I think he sees the field well, recognizes his playmakers and gets the ball to them.

We'll know for certain in a couple years, but I still believe Bradford will develop into a franchise QB.

BigBanger
10-13-2009, 11:36 PM
Still, I'd take a chance on him if I needed a QB in the 1st. Bradford brings skills to the table that can't be coached, his accuracy at times is otherworldly, he throws a very catchable ball, he's a better athlete than many give him credit for, I think he sees the field well, recognizes his playmakers and gets the ball to them.
Taking chances is in the first round leads to...

Vince Young type careers... Alex Smith type careers... JaMarcus Russell type careers... I'm sure you get my point. Those guys had talent, but they also had question marks that should have left enough doubt in the minds of the teams drafting them, to let them pass, but because they have talent and play the QB position, you get their result. If I'm going to fork out millions of dollars to a franchise QB, I'm not wanting many doubts or major concerns. I had few doubts about Stafford, Sanchez, Ryan, and only one doubt about Flacco from the two games I seen him play... level of competition and how long it would take to adjust to the NFL... apparently it didn't take long, but I had no problem with him going as high as he did. In 07 I thought Henne had the most potential of any QB and I saw him as one of those rare, late first rounder QB prospects (I also had him in my preseason top 10, so I was higher on him than most to begin with).

I look at Bradford and I'm left with so many question marks in his game that it builds so much doubt, that I couldn't even comprehend taking him high in the draft.

Bald_81
10-14-2009, 12:16 AM
He's coming from a school that has produced some huge numbers at his position, but ZERO NFL talent. The pedigree is a major concern.

That's another thing. BigBanger, you say that Oklahoma's inability to produce a top flight QB (unless you count Aikman) is another reason we should be scared about Bradford. That didn't stop you from liking Stafford, whose school hasn't produced many top QBs either besides Fran Tarkenton. They have actually produced more busts in recent years (David Greene, Quincy Carter). So, you're inconsistent with your criticism there. It only takes one to buck the trend.

BigBanger
10-14-2009, 12:32 AM
That's another thing. BigBanger, you say that Oklahoma's inability to produce a top flight QB (unless you count Aikman) is another reason we should be scared about Bradford. That didn't stop you from liking Stafford, whose school hasn't produced many top QBs either besides Fran Tarkenton. They have actually produced more busts in recent years (David Greene, Quincy Carter). So, you're inconsistent with your criticism there. It only takes one to buck the trend.
I was refereeing the Stoops era, similar to Urben Myers system. You think Tebow is going to go high in the draft coming out of that system? How about this years 5,000 yards passing QB at Texas Tech? Do you think I'm going to even waste my time watching whoever that guy may be? No. Why? Track record. The entire Big 12 and Pac-10 is just awful... Locker and the freshman QB at USC... right now that's the only hope for a starting NFL QB... I see Locker as a rare, late first round draft pick... for 11 Draft, but he's got a long way to go before he gets there.

Quincy Carter was garbage. David Greene was hardly a starting caliber QB in college. They weren't considered starting NFL QBs.

I'm just showing all the aspects of Sam Bradford that forces doubt into my mind and how it effects his draft status. Knowing how successful Jason White was in college, and for him to not even get a sniff of the NFL? I'm not going to just ignore that. It's just something to consider. If that's all I had, just the Jason White cloud hanging over his head, then that's nothing and not something I'd even bring up. I guess Stafford applies here... I watched Stafford and I was so floored by his potential that the last thing I was thinking about was the success of David Greene and Quincy Carter at the NFL level... two guys I never even took seriously in college as NFL prospects to begin with, but...

Like I've said, Sam Bradford could end up being a great NFL QB... I have so many question marks, and major question marks regarding his system and NFL caliber throws, that it makes me drop his value (greatly). I don't treat him any different than any other QB I'll analyze this year. Why should I? Because people think he's a future top 10 pick? People are ******* wrong, especially this time of year and especially about QBs. I'm sorry, but even Scott Wright had major busts in his top 10 overall, especially at the QB position, guys that I said I wouldn't think about touching until round 2 or 3 at the earliest, and some guys in round 4 or 5. Scouts, for whatever reason, wont go against the grain in a major way. They'll call JaMarcus Russell a flawed prospect with holes in his game, but they'll still list them in their top 10... it makes no sense. They'll talk about these fantastic flaws in their game that would knock any other QB at a DII school into undrafted territory, but due to hype and big name, successful college, they stay high in draft boards.

I have a very strict criteria that I stick with when gauging NFL prospects at the QB position. When you see Vince Young, it is extremely tempting to put him high on your board since he was such a great college player, but how many of those prospects translate to the NFL? The track record is awful. All the QBs I've liked over the last five years came out of NFL type systems, completed a high level of difficulty on their throws by fitting balls into tight windows and tight coverage, had a top flight NFL arm strength (exception-- Leinart), had a lot of starting experience (exception-- Mark Sanchez), had good or greatly improved their mechanics (showing their dedication to their craft and desire to get better), are 6'2'' or better, and are guys that made players around them better. That's what I'm looking for. I keep it simple. Stats, yards and competition % means nothing. Thats for the uneducated. I'd rather see a guy throwing balls into tight windows and completing 58-62% of his passes compared to a guy throwing to wide open targets and completing 70-75% of his passes.

Does Bradford make the guys around him better? I think that system makes everyone look better than they are, Bradford included. Trent Williams is the only legit NFL, starting caliber player on that offense (He's overrated and a RT at the next level, but he's a legit starting caliber prospect), but that offense can dominate college defenses. Why? Scheme. The most underrated and overlooked aspect in all of sports... coaching... a great coached team can dominate a talent heavy team. Scheme, scheme, scheme.

I have a rep for bashing a ton of highly esteemed college QB prospects, and if I'm on this site, doing this thing long enough, you'll start to see that cause I'll make threads about them and bash the hell out of them. I counteract the overhype they undeservedly get. The thing you'll notice... I bring up the same glaring question marks... not an NFL system, not making NFL reads/throws, doesn't have an NFL arm or size, ect. It actually becomes quite easy.

DoughBoy
10-14-2009, 02:35 AM
The thing that bothers me with Bradford is he only makes 1 or 2 reads. I cant remember him starting on one side of the field and coming back to the other. His system really doesnt require him to do it though, so Im not saying he cant. Arm Strength looks NFL caliber, release is NFL caliber and accuracy is great but I think he tends to stare down guys JMO. BTW Big Banger Jason White got a shot with the Titans but if I recall correctly his knees or his shoulder gave out and he had to retire.

D-Unit
10-14-2009, 02:48 AM
I don't think Bradford sucks as a prospect, but I don't think OU's system prepares him much for the NFL.

Tebow on the other hand will fail miserably.

FUNBUNCHER
10-14-2009, 07:31 AM
BTW, Jason White didn't make the jump from college to the pros because both his knees were basically shot, it had less to do with his football acumen or physical tools.

And OU wins, yes, because of great coaching and schemes. But also because they bring in year after year top 10 recruiting classes. I haven't seen the Sooners play an entire game this year, but IMO Bradford and Trent Williams aren't the only potential NFL starters on that offense.

Saints-Tigers
10-14-2009, 09:11 AM
I don't think Bradford sucks as a prospect, but I don't think OU's system prepares him much for the NFL.

Tebow on the other hand will fail miserably.

The thing with Tebow and Bradford is that if they both hope to become something, they are going to have to sit and learn for a while.

Do you take long term projects THAT high in the draft, and if you do, is Sam Bradford really offering the type of upside to dish out that type of money and time invested?

I don't think he is, I think if a guy doesn't have elite physical tools, he better be ready to come in and play right away like Matt Ryan.

You can find Sam Bradford's later on in plenty of drafts, instead of spending a high pick on him.

He has never shown me "otherworldly" accuracy.

Bald_81
10-14-2009, 12:53 PM
I have a very strict criteria that I stick with when gauging NFL prospects at the QB position. When you see Vince Young, it is extremely tempting to put him high on your board since he was such a great college player, but how many of those prospects translate to the NFL? The track record is awful. All the QBs I've liked over the last five years came out of NFL type systems, completed a high level of difficulty on their throws by fitting balls into tight windows and tight coverage, had a top flight NFL arm strength (exception-- Leinart), had a lot of starting experience (exception-- Mark Sanchez), had good or greatly improved their mechanics (showing their dedication to their craft and desire to get better), are 6'2'' or better, and are guys that made players around them better. That's what I'm looking for. I keep it simple.

Why were you so high on Philip Rivers then? You said he was one of the best prospects you've seen...did you not have questions about his throwing motion, arm strength, etc. ?

And all I can gather from all of this is that you definitely wouldn't have been high on Drew Brees. Shorter than 6'2, comes from a spread offense, questionable arm strength. Whatever, you're entitled to your opinion.

Babylon
10-14-2009, 01:39 PM
The thing with Tebow and Bradford is that if they both hope to become something, they are going to have to sit and learn for a while.

I could see Bradford starting from day one for the Rams

Do you take long term projects THAT high in the draft, and if you do, is Sam Bradford really offering the type of upside to dish out that type of money and time invested?

I don't think he is, I think if a guy doesn't have elite physical tools, he better be ready to come in and play right away like Matt Ryan.

You can find Sam Bradford's later on in plenty of drafts, instead of spending a high pick on him.

Name a few.

He has never shown me "otherworldly" accuracy.

70% his 1st year, 68% his 2nd.

BigBanger
10-14-2009, 03:06 PM
Why were you so high on Philip Rivers then? You said he was one of the best prospects you've seen...did you not have questions about his throwing motion, arm strength, etc. ?

And all I can gather from all of this is that you definitely wouldn't have been high on Drew Brees. Shorter than 6'2, comes from a spread offense, questionable arm strength. Whatever, you're entitled to your opinion.
Brees' name always comes up, but you also have to remember he is an exception. Very few QBs start in the NFL and are top 15 caliber QBs that are that short, but if I'm going to call a QB elite, he's got to have a lot... just like any other prospect. I don't have a problem with Purdue' system at all, I think its capable of producing NFL QBs. Boston College used had a great spread offense (Jay Cutler at Vandy... same thing), but it's much different than the one used in Oklahoma. Those are NFL type spread offenses. The spread the Longhorns, Missouri Tigers, Sooners used is not implemented in the NFL. Matt Ryan came out of a great spread offense his senior year (some really nice schemes) and I thought he was a fantastic QB prospect. Ryan attempted and completed some highly difficult throws, deep down field on a routine basis. Bradford throws dump off passes... you have a vertical spread (BC) and short spread (OU)... the vertical routes used in OU's scheme are designed to stretch the field vertically while the natural spread (horizontal) creates open room (large gaping pockets in the defense) for crossing patterns, flat routes, comebacks, out patterns, and screens to the RBs and TEs. You don't see Bradford attempt many deep throws 30 yards down field, because the deep patterns are usually (majority of the time) designed to do nothing more than keep those safeties back so the receivers can work underneath (Which spreads the defense out down field, as well as the across the field). You should be able to notice this with the naked eye... that is, Bradford attempting a great majority of short passes... which asks Bradford to do what with the safeties? Nothing, he doesn't even have to read or care where the safeties are after the snap (which wont happen in the NFL, you can trust me on that). The scheme takes the safeties out, he doesn't even have to worry about the safeties after the snap, he checks before the snap to see if they're deep, if they are, he knows the underneath stuff is going to be open, then he has to look to whatever side of the field has the most options... you get three guys on one side, usually matched up against 2 defenders, then you got a guy that's going to be uncovered and wide open, or you throw it out to the RB (who will be uncovered or covered by the MIKE LB). They have designs to run vertical patterns with multiple receivers on the same side of the field, just to get all the defenders deep (the CBs and Ss), then they sneak a RB out of the backfield and dump it off... all the RB has to do is beat a LB (and it takes nothing more than having better speed), then there's open field to run while the DBs are in coverage with their heads turned. That is a one read system. And that's what he does at least 50% of the time, at least.


Ryan' spread would consist of a 9 route one side of the field with the X and a deep post with the slot to the same side (2 WRs to his right)... Bradford doesn't attempt these throws (which are longer and force the QB to either hold the safety in the middle, then throw it to the outside or read the safety (who could double the outside WR) and hit the post out of the slot... and on the other side you could have an in-pattern with another WR working out of the other slot on his left, which is designed in sucking the LBs up to create a throwing lane for the slot receiver on the other side of the field... If the LBs drop and get deep enough to take away the post out of the slot to his right, then he would hit the in route (his third read), slot receiver to his left, for a 10-15 yard gain... see the difference? That's three-reads. He starts reading the safeties, depending on how they play, it dictates where the ball is going to go, if the safety shifts to a Cover 2 and jumps outside taking away the deep ball on the outside, then he has the post out of the slot, but if the LBs drop into that deep cover 2 (and he'll know it's a cover 2 if the safeties drop, if they don't, then it's man coverage), then he'll come off the slot to his right, and look for the guy coming across the middle on the square-in (who should be single covered). He has three options... and he has the arm and football IQ (ability to read that defense) and get the ball to the guy who has the single coverage. That's not even a complex read in the NFL... and that takes a split second to go from option 1, to option 2, to option 3. If Bradford did that, then I'd toot his horn for it, but he doesn't.


That, in a nutshell, is the difference between a guy like Sam Bradford and a guy like Matt Ryan.

That's as good and as detailed example I can give you, trying to explain the system and why it holds Bradford back. If you still think I'm biased, or flat wrong after this post, or if your curious why I have a 6'2'' limit or whatever about QB prospects... then, I'm done debating this. You can either take it for a grain of salt, or you can read what I just wrote and see if it makes sense or see if it applies to Sam Bradford on your own. I don't want to hear your opinion on the system or that I'm wrong about OU's system, or any of that ****. You don't even have to respond because I'm done with it. I spent enough time talking about the system, if you wanna disagree with that, then be my guest, but I don't care. I gave you some good information right there and that's probably the first time you've ever heard someone break down the system in that manner with that much detail on some message board. One scheme dictates what the defense can do (OU) and the other scheme is dictated by how the defense REACTS to the offensive patterns, and then the QB, in turn, REACTS to the defense. To break that down even more... one QB is reading the defense and one isn't.

When he throws for 350 yards against Texas next week, I wont give a ****. He wont make more than two NFL throws in that entire game and he'll throw it 50 times. If you wanna come back here and talk about his completion percentage and all that ****, I'll just copy and paste this entire post as my response.

Philip Rivers has an NFL arm. Sam Bradford is not close to Rivers. Rivers is also ten times more accurate than Bradford ever was. Rivers dominated and played huge in big games. Had tons of experience. I don't care about throwing motion. He looked awkward but he always set his feet and delivered the ball with pin point accuracy. I don't even know why I'm sitting here explaining a guy I was right about. If you think Rivers had a weak or something, then you should just forget watching QBs. I'm done talking about NFL QBs who haven't been in college for 5 years.

EvilNixon
10-14-2009, 06:24 PM
wow. That was amazing lol

romo4prez415
10-14-2009, 11:25 PM
Completely agree about Bradford having too many question marks.. I don't see a qb who can threaten all levels of the field as a passer. Not only that but he doesn't have the athleticism to improvise or anything that makes him a difference maker. IMO This guy doesn't even come close to being a top 5 player in this draft. His accuracy is only good short his arm strength is questionable and more along the lines of Chad Pennington or Jeff Garcia. He has no experience in a pro offense and was surrounded by tons of talent. I could see him turning out like Brian Brohm and being cut after his 2nd NFL camp. People comparing this guy to Phillip Rivers are crazy. I'll never forget his game at Ohio State when he was cheered off in a losing effort. I absolutely loved that guy coming out.

The only guy I can stick my neck out for right now, who i believe will be a franchise qb is Jake Locker. I see a complete package when I watch. Arm strength, accuracy (WR's drop a ton of passes), pocket presence, decision making, anticipation and intangibles. The guy is carrying his team every week. Without him there winless for another season. He has Donavan McNabb type talent and he's just starting to touch his potential. Like him as much as Sanchez long term.

Saints-Tigers
10-14-2009, 11:50 PM
70% his 1st year, 68% his 2nd.

Colt McCoy threw for 77% or something, is he the most accurate QB to ever play the game of football?

FUNBUNCHER
10-15-2009, 08:03 AM
Bradford's arms strength is comparable to Pennington, ( arguably the weakest arm in the pros), or Garcia, (who's almost 40??).

And Romo, you think Bradford gets cut by the end of his 2nd year in the NFL?

Bradford's not athletic??

This hate for Super Sam is getting way outside the bounds of reality. IMO, Bradford is the most capable spread QB to make the transition to a pro set offense, simply because the kid has the smarts, understanding of the position, competitiveness, and enough physical tools to make the jump.

Honestly, I don't think the Rivers comparisions are that far off, in that I think he could eventually develop into that type of player, but he will need time, and I wouldn't want to bring him into a situation next year where he would be required to start the 1st game of the season.

Bottom line, Stoops' offense just looks 'different' when Bradford is behind center. I really don't know how else to explain it, but suffice to say I think too many here are short-selling Bradford by assuming he's a system QB.

This isn't the second coming of Alex Smith by a mile.

Babylon
10-15-2009, 11:04 AM
Colt McCoy threw for 77% or something, is he the most accurate QB to ever play the game of football?

I'm sure he isnt but how accurate do you want the guy to be? when you factor in occasional drops, bad routes and occasional pressure 70% is outstanding. He may have faults, accuracy isnt one of them.

Geason Noceur
10-15-2009, 03:44 PM
Bradford's arms strength is comparable to Pennington, ( arguably the weakest arm in the pros), or Garcia, (who's almost 40??).

And Romo, you think Bradford gets cut by the end of his 2nd year in the NFL?

Bradford's not athletic??

This hate for Super Sam is getting way outside the bounds of reality. IMO, Bradford is the most capable spread QB to make the transition to a pro set offense, simply because the kid has the smarts, understanding of the position, competitiveness, and enough physical tools to make the jump.

Honestly, I don't think the Rivers comparisions are that far off, in that I think he could eventually develop into that type of player, but he will need time, and I wouldn't want to bring him into a situation next year where he would be required to start the 1st game of the season.

Bottom line, Stoops' offense just looks 'different' when Bradford is behind center. I really don't know how else to explain it, but suffice to say I think too many here are short-selling Bradford by assuming he's a system QB.

This isn't the second coming of Alex Smith by a mile.

Did you just call him "Super Sam"?

And people here are suprised when these kids are disliked by some fans. Some people put players in pedestals that they don't deserve.

FUNBUNCHER
10-15-2009, 04:03 PM
Sam Bradford is a 'super' college QB, the greatest passing QB, I believe, to ever play at OU.

The question remains if Bradford has it in him to be an equally sublime QB in the pros.

HawkeyeFan
10-15-2009, 08:53 PM
Dude just through for a large number of yards and 1 TD, wtf?

GoBroncos
10-16-2009, 07:34 PM
Dude just through for a large number of yards and 1 TD, wtf?

His WR's suck arse.

MidwayMonster31
10-16-2009, 08:50 PM
Gresham being hurt has really killed Bradford's production. Gresham was the go-to-guy in the red zone, and their running game isn't nearly as good as last year.

HawkeyeFan
10-16-2009, 08:58 PM
His WR's suck arse.

Dude got 400 yards, and 1 Touchdown, what the hell?

GoBroncos
10-16-2009, 09:39 PM
Dude got 400 yards, and 1 Touchdown, what the hell?

Oh? Another reason?

OU's OC is a moron, who has his head stuck way up his a$$.

HawkeyeFan
10-16-2009, 09:42 PM
He still thew for 400 yards, and ONLY 1 touchdown. That's so crazy.

Saints-Tigers
10-16-2009, 09:58 PM
I'm sure he isnt but how accurate do you want the guy to be? when you factor in occasional drops, bad routes and occasional pressure 70% is outstanding. He may have faults, accuracy isnt one of them.

I never said it was a weakness, but it's not "otherworldly" and it doesn't make up for all of the other question marks.

FUNBUNCHER
10-17-2009, 03:01 AM
I never said it was a weakness, but it's not "otherworldly" and it doesn't make up for all of the other question marks.

I believe the original statement, (mine, as a matter of fact!!), was that Bradford's accuracy was at times otherworldly.
When Sam is in a zone passing the ball, he looks like Joe Montana in his ability to pinpoint the football.

kwilk103
10-17-2009, 11:28 AM
just hurt his shoulder again

Staubach12
10-17-2009, 01:06 PM
Wow... Now add a reoccurring injury to his list of negatives. This could hurt him. If he's out for more than a couple games, I could see him coming back again next year.

Geason Noceur
10-17-2009, 01:17 PM
Is not just the shoulder. He's been injured before.

Concussion (http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/spt/stories/111907dnspooulede.1c73d20.html)
Left hand (http://collegesportsblog.dallasnews.com/archives/2008/11/oklahoma-qb-bradford-has-torn-ligaments.html)
http://assets.nydailynews.com/img/2008/12/14/amd_bradford-heisman.jpg

Add a re-injury to the list. I'm not really a Bradford fan, but I am sorry to hear that he got hurt again. This is really going to hurt his draft stock. I wish him a speedy recovery.

MetSox17
10-17-2009, 01:18 PM
Wow... Now add a reoccurring injury to his list of negatives. This could hurt him. If he's out for more than a couple games, I could see him coming back again next year.

No, you don't. There's no way on god's green earth that he comes back next year. Not a chance, in a million years he comes back.

FuzzyGopher
10-17-2009, 01:40 PM
Minnesota will take another injured Oklahoma star that falls in the draft due to injury concerns.

Brent
10-17-2009, 01:55 PM
I dont remember him getting hit at all against Baylor. I suppose they rushed him back, and now they're regretting it. Was that the last snap Bradford takes for OU this season? My guess is yes.

Geo
10-17-2009, 02:30 PM
The guy doesn't play in a pro offense and now has injured his shoulder twice this season by not being able to take a legit hit (there's going to be a lot worse in the pros).

Pass imo.

wordofi
10-17-2009, 02:33 PM
One of two things is going to happen to Sam Bradford. He'll be out of the league within 4 years after being drafted, or he'll be a career backup.

Nalej
10-17-2009, 02:34 PM
The guy doesn't play in a pro offense and now has injured his shoulder twice this season by not being able to take a legit hit (there's going to be a lot worse in the pros).

Pass imo.

I agree. He'll get destroyed in the NFL if these hits are taking him out of games.

Geo
10-17-2009, 02:36 PM
One of two things is going to happen to Sam Bradford. He'll be out of the league within 4 years after being drafted, or he'll be a career backup.
Seriously. This kid is Big School Colt Brennan.

MetSox17
10-17-2009, 02:48 PM
I dont remember him getting hit at all against Baylor. I suppose they rushed him back, and now they're regretting it. Was that the last snap Bradford takes for OU this season? My guess is yes.

I wouldn't put it past Stoops to snake his way into getting Bradford to start again. I feel bad for the guy. He's a great kid, and very talented, but Stoops is notorious for lying to his players about their injuries to get them to play. I really think this was the case again this season with Bradford.

49ers1984
10-17-2009, 03:00 PM
Bradford gets to hurt now to be a first round pick. I am sure someone will take a chance in the second round.

FuzzyGopher
10-17-2009, 03:39 PM
He had a previous injury that most likely wasn't healed enough to play. I think this whole injury prone thing is being over played. He had a separated shoulder, came back to soon and landed hard on it again.

FUNBUNCHER
10-17-2009, 04:11 PM
If Bradford falls out of the top 5, the Skins and Danny boy are gonna bite hard on him.

But it is a problem that he's not real durable in the pocket. Wasn't that last hit on a safety blitz? A 200 pounder shouldn't be able to inflict that type of injury.

Get healthy Sam. And welcome to the Nation's Capital in 2010.

FuzzyGopher
10-17-2009, 04:16 PM
If Bradford falls out of the top 5, the Skins and Danny boy are gonna bite hard on him.

But it is a problem that he's not real durable in the pocket. Wasn't that last hit on a safety blitz? A 200 pounder shouldn't be able to inflict that type of injury.

Get healthy Sam. And welcome to the Nation's Capital in 2010.

It was the same shoulder that he badly hurt in the first game of the season. I strongly believe that he came back to soon and his shoulder wasn't healed enough to take any kind of punishment.

Shane P. Hallam
10-17-2009, 04:16 PM
Bradford gets to hurt now to be a first round pick. I am sure someone will take a chance in the second round.

It's only been one injury...

BigBanger
10-17-2009, 04:39 PM
Well, looks like he wont be the 2010 Draft... this is will surely kill his draft stock, if the tape didn't do enough damage.

I'll have to add another question mark to his questionable attributes...


Even I'm disappointed to see this happen.

GoBroncos
10-17-2009, 04:40 PM
Sam Bradford = Mr. Glass.