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LizardState
05-27-2009, 11:51 AM
Who are the put up or shut players from your team(s) in 2009?

I can think of a few players who have to justify bloated salaries or just plain live up to their hype ................

Dallas Cowboys: Anthony Spencer, LB. Elllis will be gone by September, so he will start at the LOLB spot barring injury, no Don't Call Me Pacman Anymore Jones distractions, he has no more excuses. Ware on the opposite OLB came within 1 sack of the league rcd. last yr. & will draw dbl-teams as always, this should open things up for Spencer to be the sack machine for which they drafted him #1 3 yrs. ago.

SF 49ers: Vernon Davis, TE He posted a blazing 40 time at his Combine that shot him up most teams draft lists & almost guaranteed his being a #1 pick. Injuries held him back earlier, then the turmoil in the front office that culminated in Nolan's firing on 10/21 of last yr, Singletary has stabilized this team now, so excuses have run out for this underachiever TE. The much publicized public castigation from Singletary in a game when the HC had run out of patience with Davis' arrogant Me 1st attitude + the blown patterns & drops sent him to the bench but I don't think that's his next stop, that would be another team not named the 9ers, & they drafted Bear Pascoe last month. Pascoe is considered a "blocking TE" & they have Bajema for that too, but Pascoe has better hands than Davis all things considered, is a lot better blocker though considerably slower, & is a local Northern California guy from Fresno St. & a fan fave, so Davis is on notice to retain his job. Maybe there's something in the Davis family DNA chromosomes that makes them disrespectful by nature & gives them instant attitude toward authority, his younger brother Vontae, the Illinois CB, acquired the bad reputation with the "uncoachable" tag hung on him after his Combine interviews.

Oakland Raiders: Michael Huff, S. They put him at safety last yr. to team with DeAngelo Hall & take advantage of his ball skills, where his coverage skills could be better masked & he wasn't a liability drawing too much opponent OC attention as a CB opposite Pro Bowler Asomugha. At this point he's the most overrated S since Roy Williams crashed & burned in Dallas, almost as bad in man coverage. Huff was an awesome college player & magnificent athletic physical specimen coming from Texas who just never lived up to the hype, releasing Hall in October last yr was the clear handwriting on the wall. Huff will be under a microscope this yr. & if WRs continue to run past him & he gives up big plays every game HC Cable will release him outright in mid-season like Hall, he was rumored to be trade bait but his has experienced such devaluation after his horrible 08 performance I don't think anyone wants him.

BeerBaron
05-27-2009, 12:03 PM
I'm going to play Mr. Obvious and say Jamarcus Russell. He's talented enough and that division isn't totally out of reach so if the light comes on for him, the Raiders could be a playoff team.

If not....well, the white paper has already been peeled off of the "bust" label, it just needs to be applied.

AntoinCD
05-27-2009, 12:04 PM
Jamaal Anderson-DE Atlanta

Ted Ginn Jr-WR Miami

Lawrence Maroney-RB Patriots

Kamerion Wimbley-OLB Cleveland

This season could spell the end of Anderson and Maroney for their respective teams. Wimbley wont be cut or traded because they have no one else in Cleveland. Ginn has been solid but after being drafted in the top 10 he should be a regular game breaker which he has failed to live up to.

Matt Leinart and Vince Young will both get an extra year in my opinion because they are not expected to unseat Warner and Collins respectively next year, although if a marked improvement is not seen it could be the beginning of the end

CashmoneyDrew
05-27-2009, 12:11 PM
I guess for the Titans I'll say Stephen Tulloch. He was supposed to take over and make an impact last year but kind of struggled. Plus I believe his contract runs out at the end of the season.

UKfan
05-27-2009, 12:16 PM
For the Colts, Antoine Bethea.

He's in a contract year and after being a revelation early on, his play really tailed off last year. I hope he bounces back to his form in the Superbowl years, because if he doesn't he may be out the door.

tjsunstein
05-27-2009, 12:17 PM
Chad Johnson.
Ryan Grant.

Gay Ork Wang
05-27-2009, 12:17 PM
for the bears id say Mark Anderson

AkiliSmith
05-27-2009, 12:18 PM
If Chad Johnson plays this season, he will be a Pro Bowler, if Ocho Cinco shows up, he is gone in 2010.

Cigaro
05-27-2009, 12:19 PM
Dwayne Jarrett, but I know he'll be a Shut Up player.

superman8456
05-27-2009, 12:25 PM
Im going to go with a little bit of a surprise pick with Shawn Andrews. He has been complaining about his contract lately, but he doesnt deserve a new one. He has been extremely injury prone lately and we didnt struggle at all without him.

themaninblack
05-27-2009, 12:29 PM
If Chad Johnson plays this season, he will be a Pro Bowler, if Ocho Cinco shows up, he is gone in 2010.

I believe hes gonna make a return to form for no other reason than it is a contract year. If he's healthy I expect big things from him though I don't particularly care about him at all anymore. He's probably out of here either way though.

Cedric Benson is probably in that "put up or shut up" situation this season for the Bengals. Though he had a nice finish to last year, he's going to need to put it together for 16 games in order to REALLY revamp his career here in Cincy and get another deal.

the decider13
05-27-2009, 12:32 PM
Broncos: Elvis Dummervil

He was good for a year or so, but really can't seem to stay effective.

nikkayeah
05-27-2009, 12:57 PM
bear pascoe is nowhere near as good a blocker as veron davis

stephenson86
05-27-2009, 01:09 PM
I guess for the Titans I'll say Stephen Tulloch. He was supposed to take over and make an impact last year but kind of struggled. Plus I believe his contract runs out at the end of the season.


why we should of taken jasper brinkley

wonderbredd24
05-27-2009, 01:13 PM
Cleveland Browns

Kamerion Wimbley, OLB - someone else touched on it. After his 11 sack rookie season, it looked like a brilliant move taking him over Ngata and Bunkley. Since then, Ngata has been the most dominant and Bunkley has surpassed Wimbley as well. We'll see what Rob Ryan can do with Wimbley, but if he does not produce this year, he's a bust.

Brodney Pool, S - He's been horribly inconsistent throughout his career. He will sometimes make great plays and other times give up huge plays. He also has a knack for giving himself concussions by leading with his head. If he is still questionable or gets himself paralyzed, the Browns are in trouble at safety.

Braylon Edwards, WR - It's not so much that he needs to produce, because he has. It's all about consistency... when Braylon is on, he's a top 5 receiver in this league who takes over football games. When he isn't, he's embarrassing.

Brothgar
05-27-2009, 01:15 PM
Call me crazy but I think it is Donovan McNabb's year to put up or shut up. Many claim he's a great QB with no talent around him well this whole draft has been basicly geared toward giving Donovan talent around him. Everything from trading for Jason Peters to the drafting of three offensive skill players even though they are still rookies McNabb has to deliver this year in a big way to have any hopes to the Hall.

Prowler
05-27-2009, 01:19 PM
kevin smith-guaranteed playoffs, now lets see you do your part atleast

AJHawk50
05-27-2009, 01:21 PM
I would go with Jamarcus Russell myself.

Hines
05-27-2009, 01:22 PM
For the Steelers:

Santonio Holmes

The Dynasty
05-27-2009, 01:35 PM
Sidney Rice. He has been decent in the red zone but injuries have plagued him since he has gotten into the NFL and he needs a good season this year.

jballa838
05-27-2009, 01:39 PM
Seattle Seahawks: LoJack - can you pass rush?
Original Matty Ice - got anything left in the tank?
Deion Branch - Can you stay healthy?

Maybe Next Year Millen2
05-27-2009, 01:42 PM
For Detroit, got to go with Ernie Sims.

He's been a solid LB, and basically our only sure tackler in the back 7. He had a very good 2007 but 2008 even he struggled. Of course everyone around him struggled too but now he's got some solid LBs playing next to him in Foote and Peterson and better tackling safeties behind him. Sims has to stop overpursuing(one time when speed is a problem) and start making more impact plays than just being the teams only speedy/sure tackler. Detroit won't get rid of him or anything obviously, he's signed through 2010 season but he needs to have a year like 2007 or better. I think/hope he'll put up.

vidae
05-27-2009, 01:47 PM
For the Chiefs I think it almost has to be Matt Cassel at this point. He has a lot to prove here in KC. Potentially a franchise QB but no one knows for sure. It was the first big move in the Pioli era, so if he's a flop it'll put a permanent stain on his track record here from the start.

For another not so obvious choice I'll go with Derrick Johnson. I personally think he's a stud, but every year he's "poised for a probowl season" and it never materializes. It could be coaching (thank god Gunther is gone) or the fact that the last few years our teams have been so bad, but he's really got to step it up and be that impact leader on our D.

critesy
05-27-2009, 01:49 PM
jason campbell - finally under a system for 2 years so its up to him to produce now.

Staubach12
05-27-2009, 01:54 PM
DeMarcus Ware





























Haha Just kidding. For real... Roy Williams (WR). He needs to produce and that's the bottom line. No excuses. You're the #1 man now.

Matthew Jones
05-27-2009, 01:55 PM
In New England, here are some:

RB Laurence Maroney - Has been injured a lot, has never really gotten enough carries to get into a groove, and dances in the backfield. He'll have a chance to be the starter, but if he gets hurt again, I don't see him on the team after this season.

TE Ben Watson - There's talk they're already shopping Watson, and I believe it, now that they've signed Chris Baker and Alex Smith. Cassel ignored Watson, but Brady targeted him a lot in the red zone, so he might still have a chance.

OG Logan Mankins - We already know he's a solid starter, but he was only average last year and needs to improve if he wants a big deal following this season. I'd rather re-sign Wilfork and Seymour over him. He got knocked around by Jenkins last year.

C Dan Koppen - Same thing as Mankins. Al Johnson could actually be the starter because Koppen is too small to block the nose tackles in the division. He's only an average starter. The team also supposedly really liked Eric Wood in the draft.

Shahin
05-27-2009, 02:03 PM
For the Steelers:

Santonio Holmes

i think it's safe to say that Santonio has already put it up.

terribletowel39
05-27-2009, 02:08 PM
For the Steelers:

Santonio Holmes
I had to highlight over this post looking for a hidden 'just kidding'. I don't follow why you think Holmes has to put up or shut up. He is the 2nd biggest reason the Steelers won the Superbowl.

I was trying to think of a guy, it would have to be a lineman, Stapleton or Kemoeatu with Urbik biting at their heels.

Strongside
05-27-2009, 02:13 PM
Max Starks needs to show he can be a consistently good tackle.

whatadai
05-27-2009, 02:20 PM
Oakland is easy...

The whole roster except for Miller, Howard, Asomugha, and Lechler.

TimD
05-27-2009, 02:21 PM
For the Jets:

Brad Smith WR
-Talent, talent, and more talent. I hope now that he is actually getting the chance to be a true WR not Mangini's toy, he will prove how good he really is. He's had more than enough time to learn the position.

Kellen Clemens QB
-He was a 2nd round pick who has shown flashes but has lost the off season QB battle for the past 2 years. Now that Sanchez is here he needs to finally show that he is a NFL starting QB before Sanchez gets the chance to start. I've always said he has the potential, but he needs to start playing up to it.

Addict
05-27-2009, 02:27 PM
for the Lions it's everyone. I don't want to hear anything from any Lion who doesn't at least try

whatadai
05-27-2009, 02:36 PM
for the Lions it's everyone. I don't want to hear anything from any Lion who doesn't at least try

Even Calvin Johnson?

Addict
05-27-2009, 02:40 PM
Even Calvin Johnson?

Even Calvin Johnson. Don't run your mouth if you don't run your ass off first.

FlyingElvis
05-27-2009, 02:58 PM
I'll add Richard Seymour to the Pats list already covered by AntoinCD & ROP.

He is in the last year of his contract and needs to show he can string together 2 full, healthy, solid seasons to even have a chance at a contract extension at the advanced age of 31 once we hit October.

Hines
05-27-2009, 03:06 PM
i think it's safe to say that Santonio has already put it up.

I had to highlight over this post looking for a hidden 'just kidding'. I don't follow why you think Holmes has to put up or shut up. He is the 2nd biggest reason the Steelers won the Superbowl.

I was trying to think of a guy, it would have to be a lineman, Stapleton or Kemoeatu with Urbik biting at their heels.

I put Holmes because he hasn't lived up to his potential just yet. I want him to do good and be consistant a whole season, not just the post season where he started to come around. He had a major downgrade season this past season compared to his second season. I think he will have a great season this year, but he hasn't lived up to the expectations that he gave himself.


Edit: I know I put season a lot in my post but too lazy to edit it.

Sniper
05-27-2009, 03:17 PM
I had to highlight over this post looking for a hidden 'just kidding'. I don't follow why you think Holmes has to put up or shut up. He is the 2nd biggest reason the Steelers won the Superbowl.

Uh, about that.

Don Vito
05-27-2009, 03:18 PM
I agree with all the ones people have put down for the Pats, but I'm going to re-emphasize Laurence Maroney. He has all of the talent in the world and has shown some flashes, but he hasn't been able to stay healthy. Now he's saying things along the lines of "people are disrespecting me for saying I'm soft and injury prone." Well Laurence, put up our shut up. There is not many things I want to see more than Brady come back healthy and Maroney put it all together.

Ben Watson needs to learn how to catch. He, like Maroney, has all of the physical ability in the world but hasn't quite put it together. Watson is always on the field, is pretty durable, and has improved as a blocker though. I just want him to see him become the dynamic receiving threat he has the ability to be.

Koppen is a good one too because a lot of people put his name up there when talking about the game's best centers, but he looked awful at times last year. He got abused by NT's like Jamaal Williams and Casey Hampton, and that may not have been all his fault but he needs to step up this year. He had a great 2007 but definitely took a step back last year.

I'll agree with Seymour, although I think he will have a big year this season. He is in a contract year and when people talk about the prototypical 3-4 end his name is always mentioned. I want to see him stay healthy and be the game changing dominant force Pats fans know him as.

How about Pierre Woods? I know he is still young and was a UDFA, but BB has been raving about the kid's potential ever since he got here. We need one of our young pass rushers to step up and Woods definitely has the ability to do big things for us. If we stick with who we have right now at OLB and we don't get a big year from Woods, Crable, Redd, or Banta-Cain we could be in trouble especially if Adailus goes down.

Brent
05-27-2009, 03:46 PM
SF 49ers: Vernon Davis, TE He posted a blazing 40 time at his Combine that shot him up most teams draft lists & almost guaranteed his being a #1 pick. Injuries held him back earlier, then the turmoil in the front office that culminated in Nolan's firing on 10/21 of last yr, Singletary has stabilized this team now, so excuses have run out for this underachiever TE.
What are you talking about? He had 52 receptions in '07, and 31 last year, in an offense that doesn't utilize a TE. This year, he's in a offense that uses a TE more than most.

The much publicized public castigation from Singletary in a game when the HC had run out of patience with Davis' arrogant Me 1st attitude + the blown patterns & drops sent him to the bench but I don't think that's his next stop, that would be another team not named the 9ers
That was overblown by the media, any one who follows the Niners knows this. He had to make an example of someone, and he chose Vernon. Hell, even in this year in the off-season he's been one of Vernon's biggest proponents.

& they drafted Bear Pascoe last month. Pascoe is considered a "blocking TE" & they have Bajema for that too, but Pascoe has better hands than Davis all things considered, is a lot better blocker though considerably slower, & is a local Northern California guy from Fresno St. & a fan fave, so Davis is on notice to retain his job.
1) Bajema was let go, which is why they drafted Pascoe.
2) He is NOT a better blocker than Davis. In fact, Davis is one the best TEs in the league, with regards to blocking skills. He shut down Joey Porter in that Dolphins game, who only got to Hill at the end because Barry Sims is a worthless OT.
3) I would be shocked if they let Vernon walk when his contract runs out. When you've had as little QB stability as we've had, it's not a surprise to see people under-performing.

Maybe there's something in the Davis family DNA chromosomes that makes them disrespectful by nature & gives them instant attitude toward authority, his younger brother Vontae, the Illinois CB, acquired the bad reputation with the "uncoachable" tag hung on him after his Combine interviews.
When has any one ever questioned Davis' attitude? He's easily one of the hardest workers on the team and no one has complained about him being "uncoachable" since he was drafted. In fact, he has gone easy on the weights this off-season, and slimmed down, so he can be more fluid in his running.

I am not saying that Vernon is being given a free pass on this season, because he's definitely going to have to put up some stats, but you're portraying him far differently than the reality of his situation.

terribletowel39
05-27-2009, 03:52 PM
Uh, about that.
I don't follow....I'm thinking you think he is the sole biggest reason??

If thats the case, I think it goes: Ben, Holmes, Harrison. Just my opinion, I can definitely see why Holmes would be #1 reason in some minds.

Sniper
05-27-2009, 03:53 PM
I don't follow....I'm thinking you think he is the sole biggest reason??

If thats the case, I think it goes: Ben, Holmes, Harrison. Just my opinion, I can definitely see why Holmes would be #1 reason in some minds.

1. Harrison
2. Ben
3. Woodley (2 sacks, 1 pass breakup, clipped the **** out of some guy on Harrison's TD. Not legal, but Harrison doesn't score without it. ;))

Sue me. I'm a LaMarr homer.

As good as Holmes' catch was on the GW TD, Roethlisberger's throw was better.

phlysac
05-27-2009, 04:09 PM
What are you talking about? He had 52 receptions in '07, and 31 last year, in an offense that doesn't utilize a TE. This year, he's in a offense that uses a TE more than most.


That was overblown by the media, any one who follows the Niners knows this. He had to make an example of someone, and he chose Vernon. Hell, even in this year in the off-season he's been one of Vernon's biggest proponents.


1) Bajema was let go, which is why they drafted Pascoe.
2) He is NOT a better blocker than Davis. In fact, Davis is one the best TEs in the league, with regards to blocking skills. He shut down Joey Porter in that Dolphins game, who only got to Hill at the end because Barry Sims is a worthless OT.
3) I would be shocked if they let Vernon walk when his contract runs out. When you've had as little QB stability as we've had, it's not a surprise to see people under-performing.


When has any one ever questioned Davis' attitude? He's easily one of the hardest workers on the team and no one has complained about him being "uncoachable" since he was drafted. In fact, he has gone easy on the weights this off-season, and slimmed down, so he can be more fluid in his running.

I am not saying that Vernon is being given a free pass on this season, because he's definitely going to have to put up some stats, but you're portraying him far differently than the reality of his situation.

Exactly, Brent! Davis is a Singletary favorite and one of the team leaders. The addition of Bear Pascoe as a blocking specialist allows for Davis to be utilized in an aggressive fashion this season. Davis was only targeted as a receiver about 45 times last season and spent 80+% of the time staying in to block in Martz's deep-drop offensive scheme. New OC Jimmy Raye used Tony Gonzalez beautifully without any other targets on the field and Elvis Grbac throwing him the ball. He will find a way to garner as much production as possible out of Davis. I would still include him on my list because he has, indeed, failed to live up to hype. Unfortunately, he hasn't been given the best of circumstances to do much. He has done quite alot with as few balls as he's been thrown in his young career, but he does need to step up and be a bigger piece of the offensive puzzle.

Other 49ers I would include...

Manny Lawson - OLB - The experimentation and puzzling utilization Mike Nolan employed of Lawson is gone. Coach Greg Manusky promises to allow Lawson to be a 3-down SAM and let him put his hand on the ground, pin his ears back, and rush the passer. If he doesn't take advantage of that opportunity, he will lose his job.

Dashon Goldson - FS - The converted college CB has shown explosive playmaking ability the last few training camps and a ball-hawking FS is something the 49ers have a grave need for. Unfortunately, Goldson has been injury prone an unable to see the field enough to transplant the aging, no-impact Mark Roman. Roman has already been stripped of his role as starting FS and the keys have been handed to Goldson. I expect great things from him if he stays healthy. Sadly, that's a bigger "if" than I'd like.

Da-Phins
05-27-2009, 04:09 PM
Ernest Wilford- The guy was suppose to come in and be our redzone target and a possession guy for us but all he did was stay on the bench or on the inactive list the whole season. Always was getting out performed by the other WR's on the team. Now the coaches are having him work at the TE position some to see if he can add some value there.

Jason Allen- Has all the athletic ability in the world, but he just never seems to get it. Just when you think that little light bulb is finally on, it goes back off.

Paul Soliai- He's an athletic guy for his size and showed some power late last year. He's a guy who never seems like he wants it. Was suspended twice last year but he did rebound late in the season and played decent. Sparano was even impressed with him in the playoff game against the Ravens. Then this offseason he came in overweight.

Mr. Hero
05-27-2009, 04:11 PM
I think Jamal Anderson should have a good chance start living up to his potential, if he doesn't he'll no longer be a falcon in a year and I wonder if the giants might not sign him to see if our DEs and DL coach can't get him to tap into that potential.

SFbear
05-27-2009, 04:12 PM
for the bears id say Mark Anderson

Definitely.

Also Nathan Vasher has been pretty publicly called out by the organization about his decline in play since he signed his contract and I would expect him to be cut if he doesn't bounce back.

Tommie Harris is in no danger of being cut anytime soon but I think the Bears are expecting big things out of him this year with Marinelli coaching him up. If he can't stay healthy or productive, I'd have to imagine Jarron Gilbert and Marcus Harrison start getting more attention.

Menardo75
05-27-2009, 04:15 PM
Alex Smith can be added to the 49ers list also.

DT35
05-27-2009, 04:20 PM
Seattle Seahawks: LoJack - can you pass rush?
Original Matty Ice - got anything left in the tank?
Deion Branch - Can you stay healthy?

Colin Cole - Never did anything in GB to warrant a big contract like that, better step it up.

Kelly Jennings - With Lucas being brought in and Wilson probably being the 3rd CB, Kelly might not see much time. He needs to prove he was worthy of that first rounder.

The Unseen
05-27-2009, 04:20 PM
David Garrard - If the offensive line and running game improve from last year but he doesn't, then say bye-bye.

John Henderson - He regressed big time last year. He needs to get back to his dominating self or the defense will continue to be porous.

Derrick Harvey/Quinton Groves - They need to continue to improve in their play in order to help the Jaguars' woeful pass rush.

Tony Pashos - His year was a mixed bag. If he doesn't improve in training camp, then he may get ousted by Britton and moved inside. Then the question will be how well he plays inside. If that doesn't work, then he's also "shut up."

Maurice Jones-Drew - He plays at a high level, but can he play as well as a starter? He doesn't represent a red flag as big as the others, but it's something to look out for.

Jack Del Rio - Not a player, but I'm getting the feeling that it's winning record or GTFO for him.

jkpigskin
05-27-2009, 04:44 PM
Willis Mcgahee for the ravens. I am a firm supporter of this guy, but if he runs like he did in the beginning of the year, he is gone next year. I understand he was injured but this guy is hella talented and should be a 1000 yard rusher for us. I have high hopes for this guy and i believe this is his year to shine or to give up the reigns to Ray Rice

nfrillman
05-27-2009, 04:45 PM
Let me try to think of some for the Rams.

1. Marc Bulger- While I am still a big supporter of him, a huge rift in the fan base has developed over him. If he is good then he can prove that he is just fine and that no QB would be good on these past couple Rams teams. If he struggles again then it will have been three straight poor seasons.

2. Alex Barron- For the most part he would have to be classified as a disappointment, though I don't think he has been as bad as some others do. It's his contract year and h is being moved to LT, which most feel is his natural position. He needs to play better and severly cut down on the penalties.

3. Richie Incognito- Another polarizing player among Rams fans. Some feel that he an idiot, others feel he is just emotional. Some feel he is a plus player, others feel he is a minus player. Well, we'll see this year.

4. Tye Hill- He is probably on his last life with the Rams. He was solid his rookie season, seemed to get better his second season until getting hurt, and was absolutely horrid last year. I still think he could become something, but I'm in the minority.

5. Steven Jackson- As amazing as it may seem, some Rams fans have a problem with him. In my opinion it's because he isn't Marshall Faulk. I'm kidding about having to prove himself though, I mean get real idiotic small segment of Rams fans.

jkpigskin
05-27-2009, 04:47 PM
David Garrard - If the offensive line and running game improve from last year but he doesn't, then say bye-bye.

John Henderson - He regressed big time last year. He needs to get back to his dominating self or the defense will continue to be porous.

Derrick Harvey/Quinton Groves - They need to continue to improve in their play in order to help the Jaguars' woeful pass rush.

Tony Pashos - His year was a mixed bag. If he doesn't improve in training camp, then he may get ousted by Britton and moved inside. Then the question will be how well he plays inside. If that doesn't work, then he's also "shut up."

Maurice Jones-Drew - He plays at a high level, but can he play as well as a starter? He doesn't represent a red flag as big as the others, but it's something to look out for.

Jack Del Rio - Not a player, but I'm getting the feeling that it's winning record or GTFO for him.

i wouldnt put that amount of pressure on those 2nd year pass rushers in Harvey and Groves. Though I feel Harvey has a lot to prove after the Jags reached for him last year.

And i believe if Garrard struggles this year, that the Jags will be interested in a first round QB

Yatta!
05-27-2009, 04:50 PM
I'll add a couple more for the Packers.

Chad Clifton - contract year, didn't play well down the stretch
Scott Wells - talk that he might not even make the roster
Justin Harrell - just getting on the field consistently would be a start

Brent
05-27-2009, 04:58 PM
Alex Smith can be added to the 49ers list also.
If he even sees the field...

Mr. Hero
05-27-2009, 05:53 PM
If I'm looking at the giants I think Antonio Pierce is a clear starting point, he's come in chubby for a couple years now and he's slowed down significantly, while he's still a tough guy and has great football IQ his play has been declining. Now if also consider that we're suddenly deep at the position, with both Kehl and Goff looking like they're best chance to become a starter will be at Mike after the additions of Clint Sintim and Michael Boley, not mentioning a guy like chase blackburn who's been a key backup for our team.

I also think this is a big year for Domenik Hixon, he's shown the explosiveness aswell as route running the ability to get open deep, but he has to show he can consistently bring the ball in and contribute as a blocker. If not I think Mario Manningham and Hakeem Nicks will take him out of the starting lineup by half way through the season, and if he doesn't step up and our young guys do he's probably going to be either released or restricted to return duties.

Addict
05-27-2009, 05:57 PM
Alex Smith can be added to the 49ers list also.If he even sees the field...

he'll see the field allright. From the sidelines.

marshallb
05-27-2009, 05:59 PM
for the Vikings:
Obviously Tavaris Jackson, then I'd go with Sidney Rice, Visanthe Shiancoe, and Ray Edwards. I think all of those guys could very easily be replaced after this year if they don't produce.

CC.SD
05-27-2009, 05:59 PM
Buster Davis: Hey guy you're a first rounder. I don't expect you to beat out Chambers or Jackson, but please win the #3 WR spot. Although honestly Legedu Naanee is much beastlier. What the heck are we going to do with this guy? If he hadn't been such a china doll from the beginning we would never have traded for Chambers mid-season, so I guess you could say he has contributed to the makeup of the team.

Luis Castillo: I like Castillo, he's dominant when he's on, but he never flipped the switch last year and is getting paid like a top 5 DE in the league. You don't get to take a year off when you have that contract, Dancing Bear, and if you do you better bounce back hard.

YAYareaRB
05-27-2009, 06:02 PM
If the 49ers still have Alex Smith on the roster.. What makes you think Vernon Davis' job is on notice. Let me just point out some flaws in that argument.

Vernon, although dropped some balls last season, caught most of the balls thrown to him when he was thrown to. I say when he was thrown to because they didn't do it a lot. When was the last time you seen a TE go to the pro bowl from the Mike Martz system?

Bear Pascoe was brought it for blocking purposes since we lost Bajema in the FA. Bear, although a fan fave, doesn't have the hands, blocking ablility, or overall playmaking ability Vernon Davis has. He's there for blocking.. nothing more nothing less.

Vernon Davis, although has had ONE ISSUE for the past 3 years.. is labeled a headcase. But since Sing decided to call him out publicly, somehow he's been labeled as a "me first" type guy. He's anything but. Can you recall anymore incidents with VD?

GhostDeini
05-27-2009, 06:07 PM
Reggie Bush. Come on dude, lets aim for 600 rushing yards this year.

YAYareaRB
05-27-2009, 06:08 PM
Reggie Bush. Come on dude, lets aim for 600 rushing yards this year.

They should have known what they were getting when they drafted him.

btw, your sig is biiiiig

BlindSite
05-27-2009, 06:18 PM
Jake Delhomme - Stop turning the ball over or retire so Matt Moore can have his day.

Dwayne Jarrett - Receives far too much unfair criticism because he has played well when needed, but we need to see more so we know when moose leaves the team is safe.

CashmoneyDrew
05-27-2009, 06:21 PM
I'll add a couple more for the Packers.

Chad Clifton - contract year, didn't play well down the stretch
Scott Wells - talk that he might not even make the roster
Justin Harrell - just getting on the field consistently would be a start

Are you an Alabama Crimson Tide fan by any chance?

CC.SD
05-27-2009, 06:24 PM
Vernon Davis, although has had ONE ISSUE for the past 3 years.. is labeled a headcase. But since Sing decided to call him out publicly, somehow he's been labeled as a "me first" type guy. He's anything but. Can you recall anymore incidents with VD?

Not to mince words, but do you consider calling himself specifically better than Gates, before even playing a down an incident? It was big enough to get back to Antonio, who of course dismissed it out of hand. That's when I labeled him a headcase, and it was obviously years before Samurai Mike got ahold of him.

GhostDeini that sig is ridiculous.

Addict
05-27-2009, 06:30 PM
Not to mince words, but do you consider calling himself specifically better than Gates, before even playing a down an incident? It was big enough to get back to Antonio, who of course dismissed it out of hand. That's when I labeled him a headcase, and it was obviously years before Samurai Mike got ahold of him.

GhostDeini that sig is ridiculous.

so was his last one. He's just doing that to piss us off. Just ignore it.

DeepThreat
05-27-2009, 06:47 PM
For the Browns I'd say:

Brady Quinn - I still like him, but this is his 3rd year and he needs to put up the numbers. It's time for him to start and be successful.

Jerome Harrison - He needs to show that he can stay on the field and be a regular contributor. He also needs to learn how to block.

Braylon Edwards - He is insanely talented, but he is inconsistent as hell. He drops easy catches and catches nearly impossible ones. Not to mention, he can't shut up.

Corey Williams - He was pretty good last year, but he needs to be better to justify his contract. He has to stay healthy and make plays.

Kamerion Wimbley - He is a one dimensional pass rusher who can't rush the passer. He only has one move, but is extremely athletic. I'm hoping Rob Ryan can bring out the best in him, but this is his last chance.

Brodney Pool - While he improved last year, he was still very bad in coverage. He'll be better at strong safety, but he still needs to improve his smarts, instincts, and coverage skills. He is a force against the run, is a great tackler, and is incredibly athletic. He just needs to produce.

Ryan Pontbriand - He is terrible. He has no zip on snaps and their completely inaccurate. I kid. I kid.

CC.SD
05-27-2009, 06:49 PM
For the Browns I'd say:

Brady Quinn - I still like him, but this is his 3rd year and he needs to put up the numbers. It's time for him to start and be successful.

Jerome Harrison - He needs to show that he can stay on the field and be a regular contributor. He also needs to learn how to block.

Braylon Edwards - He is insanely talented, but he is inconsistent as hell. He drops easy catches and catches nearly impossible ones. Not to mention, he can't shut up.

Corey Williams - He was pretty good last year, but he needs to be better to justify his contract. He has to stay healthy and make plays.

Kamerion Wimbley - He is a one dimensional pass rusher who can't rush the passer. He only has one move, but is extremely athletic. I'm hoping Rob Ryan can bring out the best in him, but this is his last chance.

Brodney Pool - While he improved last year, he was still very bad in coverage. He'll be better at strong safety, but he still needs to improve his smarts, instincts, and coverage skills. He is a force against the run, is a great tackler, and is incredibly athletic. He just needs to produce.

Ryan Pontbriand - He is terrible. He has no zip on snaps and their completely inaccurate. I kid. I kid.

SWDC win. Even long snappers must earn their keep. No kid.

jkpigskin
05-27-2009, 06:52 PM
Alex Smith can be added to the 49ers list also.

this is a year late. Alex Smith's time is up and people know that now. That is why he is not the favorite to win his QB battle. His time is up.

CC.SD
05-27-2009, 06:59 PM
this is a year late. Alex Smith's time is up and people know that now. That is why he is not the favorite to win his QB battle. His time is up.

Not to veer entirely OT, but how is Scumbag douchenozzle Ryan Leaf still considered the worst bust of all time given all these guys who were actually the 1st overall pick who did absolutely nothing? I'm not being defensive, I would obviously not lift a finger to help Ryan if he were lying on the road, but it is a curiosity to me. Do the extra picks/players involved really balance out the fact that he was picked 2nd and not 1st? Enough to make him that much more of a bust than guys like Alex Smithor Jamarcus Russell?

Yatta!
05-27-2009, 06:59 PM
Are you an Alabama Crimson Tide fan by any chance?

Wow I didn't notice that at all, major coincidence.

BeerBaron
05-27-2009, 07:06 PM
Not to veer entirely OT, but how is Scumbag douchenozzle Ryan Leaf still considered the worst bust of all time given all these guys who were actually the 1st overall pick who did absolutely nothing? I'm not being defensive, I would obviously not lift a finger to help Ryan if he were lying on the road, but it is a curiosity to me. Do the extra picks/players involved really balance out the fact that he was picked 2nd and not 1st? Enough to make him that much more of a bust than guys like Alex Smithor Jamarcus Russell?

Leaf was a dumbass, dickhead who not only sucked on the field, but was terrible off of it too with his temper explosions and such....can't have that out of a QB.

And he was just AWFUL on the field too.....Alex Smith and David Carr were at least mediocre for a year or two. Leaf was never very good.

Plus, Leaf is/was/always will be compared to Peyton. MVP, future hall of famer Peyton.

That all adds up to make Leaf easily the worst draft pick....everzz.

Marino13
05-27-2009, 07:07 PM
Jason Allen-He's made so many switches between Safety and CB, but hasn't really excelled at either. Great athlete, but needs to get the mental part. With Vontae Davis, Sean Smith, and Chris Clemons being drafted, and Will Allen getting an extension (and Eric Green signing on), he might not make it to the regular season.

Paul Saoli-Suspended twice last year, but is the main reason the Trifecta didn't draft a NT. Thing is undrafted FA Louis Ellis has really impressed the coaches. THe Samoan has a lot to prove.

Ernest Wilford-With Patrick Turner and Brian Hartline being drafted, Wilford is probably gone unless he excells at TE. Even there, he's got to be better than Joey Haynos, Jon Nalbone, and the UDFA kid from Central Washington.

ROnnie Brown-He's been good, but he needs to take the step to great if he wants to get an extension

Vernon Carey-Got a decent sized contract in the offseason, now prove you deserve it.

Jake Grove-Got a deal nobody was expecting, now he has to prove he was worth it.

thebow305
05-27-2009, 07:11 PM
Ted Ginn. I love this guy as many on here know, but even I am starting to lose patience with him. I'm expecting a big year from him in his 3rd year. They say receivers usually take until the 3rd year to break out. We will see!

CC.SD
05-27-2009, 07:15 PM
Leaf was a dumbass, dickhead who not only sucked on the field, but was terrible off of it too with his temper explosions and such....can't have that out of a QB.

And he was just AWFUL on the field too.....Alex Smith and David Carr were at least mediocre for a year or two. Leaf was never very good.

Plus, Leaf is/was/always will be compared to Peyton. MVP, future hall of famer Peyton.

That all adds up to make Leaf easily the worst draft pick....everzz.

I don't disagree on any particular trait...I feel like if Ryan were picked AHEAD of Peyton he would be the worst pick of allzz timez but oh well. Bygones will be bygones and all that. It brings me great joy to see him in trouble with the law.

Timbathia
05-27-2009, 08:03 PM
Broncos: Elvis Dummervil

He was good for a year or so, but really can't seem to stay effective.

I reckon that is harsh. On a D-line that has been ineffective for years, he is the only guy consistently getting anywhere near the QB (add to the fact he was drafted as an after-thought and is too small for a DE). He comes in on obvious passing situations (with the opposition is pass-protection mode) and he gets no help from anyone else on the line. IMO he is an over-achiever.

I think the guy on the Broncos is DJ Williams. He is the most talented LB on the team, and if the Broncos are gonna have any hope on defense this year at all then he is the guy that has to elevate his game to the elite level.

JT Jag
05-27-2009, 08:31 PM
David Garrard - If the offensive line and running game improve from last year but he doesn't, then say bye-bye.

John Henderson - He regressed big time last year. He needs to get back to his dominating self or the defense will continue to be porous.

Derrick Harvey/Quinton Groves - They need to continue to improve in their play in order to help the Jaguars' woeful pass rush.

Tony Pashos - His year was a mixed bag. If he doesn't improve in training camp, then he may get ousted by Britton and moved inside. Then the question will be how well he plays inside. If that doesn't work, then he's also "shut up."

Maurice Jones-Drew - He plays at a high level, but can he play as well as a starter? He doesn't represent a red flag as big as the others, but it's something to look out for.

Jack Del Rio - Not a player, but I'm getting the feeling that it's winning record or GTFO for him.I'd add Mike Walker to this list. He's been talked up as a potential #1 receiver by Jaguars fans for two and a half years (including me), and he's had a ton of bad luck in the last two years. But he's run out of excuses. I want to see him get maybe 50 receptions and 700 yards at least, or it might be time to cut ties and let the new guys we drafted this year have a shot at it.

And I think Jack would be able to stay on if he managed an 8-8 record.

YAYareaRB
05-27-2009, 08:41 PM
Not to veer entirely OT, but how is Scumbag douchenozzle Ryan Leaf still considered the worst bust of all time given all these guys who were actually the 1st overall pick who did absolutely nothing? I'm not being defensive, I would obviously not lift a finger to help Ryan if he were lying on the road, but it is a curiosity to me. Do the extra picks/players involved really balance out the fact that he was picked 2nd and not 1st? Enough to make him that much more of a bust than guys like Alex Smithor Jamarcus Russell?

As far as the play goes.. Jamarcus Russell didn't do TOO bad last year and will have another year to prove himself. Alex Smith had an alright year but the way the 49ers change offensive coordinators is like changing underwear. 5 in the past 5 seasons I believe. With a competent OC, Norv Turner, Alex Smith did pretty bad ass. His mechanics and throwing were questionable to begin with lol.

When it comes down to it.. Russell and Smith aren't complete D Bags like Leaf was.

LookItsAlDavis
05-27-2009, 08:49 PM
The Oakland Raider's starting offense.

Bucs_Rule
05-27-2009, 09:37 PM
Buster Davis: Hey guy you're a first rounder. I don't expect you to beat out Chambers or Jackson, but please win the #3 WR spot. Although honestly Legedu Naanee is much beastlier. What the heck are we going to do with this guy? If he hadn't been such a china doll from the beginning we would never have traded for Chambers mid-season, so I guess you could say he has contributed to the makeup of the team.


I forgot that guy even existed. When I read the name Buster Davis I thought of the 3rd round cardinals LB that was released in the same year he was drafted a couple years ago. That shows how big of a bust the WR Davis is.

Does he ever get onto the field? When watching Charger games I never seen him.

The Oakland Raider's starting offense.

Most of those guys are trash, no one expects anything from them. Good collection of RBs though, they should try out the wild cat with McFadden throwing.

BlindSite
05-27-2009, 09:57 PM
I'm going to throw in Wade Philips and John Fox as coaches that need to put up or shut up.

Philips has had a far too talented roster from top to bottom to allow crap to fester as it has with TO, the Corner situation and every other headline grabbing piece of crap to come out of dallas the past few years.

Romo and Williams should know the system by now and god knows that with Barber III, Choice and Jones as the RBs there's a good enough running game for defenses to be unable to cover everything at once.

It's time for the Cowboys to either get a better coach, or for Philips to start winning.

As for John Fox, the team's been a model of inconsistency been great one year, average the next, the defense or offense have either been brilliant or terrible but always lacking support from the other unit. With Meeks and Davidson the team finally has two good aggressive coordinators to utilize the good pieces that the team has. If we don't make the playoffs it'll lead to some severe disappointment from a lot of people in the fan base and it's doubtful Jerry Richardson continues with the Fox era.

phlysac
05-27-2009, 09:58 PM
this is a year late. Alex Smith's time is up and people know that now. That is why he is not the favorite to win his QB battle. His time is up.

I'm trying to figure out how Alex Smith could've improved last season considering he was placed on IR in the preseason. He hasn't thrown a regular season pass with a healthy shoulder since the 4th week of the 2007 season. He is also still just 25 years of age.

But along with the topic of the thread... He's not on my list because he has already lost his starting job and taken a huge paycut. Therefore, he can only rebuild a reputation already lost, not have one final chance at keeping the reputation.

BlindSite
05-27-2009, 10:07 PM
I wouldn't mind seeing alex smith go to one of a few places to compete. Somehow I could see him doing pretty well somewhere like Arizona if Leinart busts out, or Carolina as the heir to Delhomme's throne.

He showed a lot of moxie and talent I just feel that he has had probably the most unlucky run of coaching changes and injuries of just about any player I can remember in a long time. He's still so young to have spent so long in the game and I feel if he and aaron Rogers were switched in their draft places he'd be playing really well right now.

phlysac
05-27-2009, 10:11 PM
I wouldn't mind seeing alex smith go to one of a few places to compete. Somehow I could see him doing pretty well somewhere like Arizona if Leinart busts out, or Carolina as the heir to Delhomme's throne.

He showed a lot of moxie and talent I just feel that he has had probably the most unlucky run of coaching changes and injuries of just about any player I can remember in a long time. He's still so young to have spent so long in the game and I feel if he and aaron Rogers were switched in their draft places he'd be playing really well right now.

Well said. It is unfortunate that a player who was considered a project because he came from a spread-option, as well as being a player who, according to Urban Meyer, struggles terribly until he has 100% understanding of his system, was expected to succeed on the least talented team in the NFL and a revolving door of offensive systems.

BuddyCHRIST
05-27-2009, 10:19 PM
Alex Smith looked pretty good his second year, especially considering the lack of receiving options and the learning curve he faced. I rarely see the 9'ers play so I don't really know the deal. But I was shocked when I heard he lost his starting job.

For the Saints...
I'll go with Reggie Bush, I know its a little cool to hate on Bush and he's been a solid player but he really needs to be a gamebreaker and atleast become one of the elite big play threats. He's really regressed since the end of his rookie year when he was playing so well. Plus he gets paid a ton.

tjsunstein
05-27-2009, 10:38 PM
I'll add a couple more for the Packers.

Chad Clifton - contract year, didn't play well down the stretch
Scott Wells - talk that he might not even make the roster
Justin Harrell - just getting on the field consistently would be a start

AJ Hawk. New system should fit him better. Hasn't been #5 overall worthy... yet?

Stash
05-27-2009, 11:02 PM
Who are the put up or shut players from your team(s) in 2009?

I can think of a few players who have to justify bloated salaries or just plain live up to their hype ................

Oakland Raiders: Michael Huff, S. They put him at safety last yr. to team with DeAngelo Hall & take advantage of his ball skills, where his coverage skills could be better masked & he wasn't a liability drawing too much opponent OC attention as a CB opposite Pro Bowler Asomugha. At this point he's the most overrated S since Roy Williams crashed & burned in Dallas, almost as bad in man coverage. Huff was an awesome college player & magnificent athletic physical specimen coming from Texas who just never lived up to the hype, releasing Hall in October last yr was the clear handwriting on the wall. Huff will be under a microscope this yr. & if WRs continue to run past him & he gives up big plays every game HC Cable will release him outright in mid-season like Hall, he was rumored to be trade bait but his has experienced such devaluation after his horrible 08 performance I don't think anyone wants him.
Uhhhh, what? They didn't just put him at safety last year, he started at safety his first 2 years and actually got benched for the majority of last season. I don't see how you think he's overrated, he's a bust who was benched and almost cut. It's hard to be overrated when your not rated very highly. Heck, you even say it in your own post "he was rumored to be trade bait but his has experienced such devaluation after his horrible 08 performance I don't think anyone wants him".

And your wrong about his weakness, pass coverage was not his problem. That was pretty much the only area where he did a decent job. He was a bad tackler and he never became the "big play" guy he was supposed to be, he was just invisible. As for this year, he'll have to actually start in order to prove anything and I don't know if that will be happening.

Burger
05-27-2009, 11:21 PM
bear pascoe is nowhere near as good a blocker as veron davis

Are you sure about that?

princefielder28
05-27-2009, 11:28 PM
AJ Hawk. New system should fit him better. Hasn't been #5 overall worthy... yet?

AJ Hawk needs to step his game up this season, but at least he's been on the field and played as a capable backer. Justin Harrell definitely needs to prove the most this coming season and his back problems need to become a non-issue.

Mr. Stiller
05-27-2009, 11:28 PM
Max Starks needs to show he can be a consistently good tackle.

Starks was our Best lineman.

It's gotta be Kemo. Dude's a manimal when he doesn't get confused.

When he does, ask Jason Jones how good he is.

LonghornsLegend
05-27-2009, 11:35 PM
Sidney Rice. He has been decent in the red zone but injuries have plagued him since he has gotten into the NFL and he needs a good season this year.

I think Sidney Rice can play, but when you keep getting nagging injuries it's hard to really be yourself...I don't know if the team has much faith in him, but he's always been a great red zone weapon whenever I saw him play and he's got some explosiveness to his game.


Doesn't surprise me he hasn't taken the next level because he left South Carolina early, but I think he can have a year around 700 yards, 7 TD's if he can stay healthy.

Hines
05-27-2009, 11:37 PM
I think Sidney Rice can play, but when you keep getting nagging injuries it's hard to really be yourself...I don't know if the team has much faith in him, but he's always been a great red zone weapon whenever I saw him play and he's got some explosiveness to his game.


Doesn't surprise me he hasn't taken the next level because he left South Carolina early, but I think he can have a year around 700 yards, 7 TD's if he can stay healthy.

I was in love with Rice that draft year. I was so pissed that Rice and Jarrett went right before Pittsburgh. Luckily, we got Wood and I am no longer pissed that the Steelers didn't get them.

LonghornsLegend
05-27-2009, 11:39 PM
I was in love with Rice that draft year. I was so pissed that Rice and Jarrett went right before Pittsburgh. Luckily, we got Wood and I am no longer pissed that the Steelers didn't get them.

He was considered a 1st round talent by some so once he got to that point most people felt whatever team got him would be pretty lucky...He had 400 yards and 4 TD's as a very raw rookie, he's got the skills to break out I think which is why I was surprised they were trying to give TJ so much money to put him on the bench.

Menardo75
05-28-2009, 12:18 AM
this is a year late. Alex Smith's time is up and people know that now. That is why he is not the favorite to win his QB battle. His time is up.

He is statistically the most improved QB in NFL history, gets the crap beat out of him, and misses the next two years, and his time is up?

703SKINS202
05-28-2009, 12:36 AM
Redskins:

Jason Campbell- Doesn't have to win a Superbowl but needs to improve and make some noise for us or hes gone.

Devin Thomas- Been talking all offseason lets see what you do.

Carlos Rogers- Need to improve consistency to get the contract hes looking for that...

Deanglo Hall- Step up for the money you just got paid.

Brent
05-28-2009, 12:50 AM
He is statistically the most improved QB in NFL history, gets the crap beat out of him, and misses the next two years, and his time is up?
You're on an NFL forum with people who think Balmer is a bust because he wasnt a starter by years end, last season. Let it go.

Menardo75
05-28-2009, 01:01 AM
You're on an NFL forum with people who think Balmer is a bust because he wasnt a starter by years end, last season. Let it go.

I was just asking a question.

brat316
05-28-2009, 01:03 AM
You're on an NFL forum with people who think Balmer is a bust because he wasnt a starter by years end, last season. Let it go.

Yeah people don't realize that playing 5 tech DE isn't an easy thing to do.

brat316
05-28-2009, 01:08 AM
Caddy Williams, I want to see him put up. Gotta fight the injury bug man.

Something I noticed, college Rbs that come out from a 2 rb system, seem to get injured more when they take on NFL load of carries. Unless they are splitting the carries then they can delay the injury bug.

Examples: Barber, Maroney, Brown, Caddy, few other names that slip my mind.

Also Dwayne Jarrett, come on man. Its typical that big USC WRs suck in the NFL. Lets gather some more data, before making this decision, but its looking that way. We'll see how Patrick Turner turns out in 3 years.

Mr. Hero
05-28-2009, 01:45 AM
You're on an NFL forum with people who think Balmer is a bust because he wasnt a starter by years end, last season. Let it go.

If you think this forum's not incredibly patient just pay a visit to realgm.com's knick board, it's unbelievable how impatient and delusional some posters are on there.

BlindSite
05-28-2009, 02:27 AM
Also Dwayne Jarrett, come on man. Its typical that big USC WRs suck in the NFL. Lets gather some more data, before making this decision, but its looking that way. We'll see how Patrick Turner turns out in 3 years.


Dwayne hasn't been that bad, he was pretty bad as a rookie but last year he came up big on a few drives late in games on third down to keep drives going.

He hasn't exploded and I don't think he will this year either but he's been at least a solid third option for the Panthers. Most of the passes end up going to the backs or tight ends after Smitty or Moose but Jarrett has been coming along.

People forget that he's still 22 (23 in september) he's got plenty of time to mature and get right in the league.

The Unseen
05-28-2009, 09:28 AM
I'd add Mike Walker to this list. He's been talked up as a potential #1 receiver by Jaguars fans for two and a half years (including me), and he's had a ton of bad luck in the last two years. But he's run out of excuses. I want to see him get maybe 50 receptions and 700 yards at least, or it might be time to cut ties and let the new guys we drafted this year have a shot at it.

And I think Jack would be able to stay on if he managed an 8-8 record.

True about Walker.

And yeah, I think 8-8 could possibly bide him time. But another losing year may be too much for Weaver to handle with Cowher and Shanahan lying in wait.

jkpigskin: I agree, which is why I said "improve their play." I can give them a couple years to live up to their potential, but the Jaguars need them to improve this year enough so they can have a meaningful impact on the team's defensive improvment.

YAYareaRB
05-28-2009, 09:33 AM
Caddy Williams, I want to see him put up. Gotta fight the injury bug man.

Something I noticed, college Rbs that come out from a 2 rb system, seem to get injured more when they take on NFL load of carries. Unless they are splitting the carries then they can delay the injury bug.

Examples: Barber, Maroney, Brown, Caddy, few other names that slip my mind.

Also Dwayne Jarrett, come on man. Its typical that big USC WRs suck in the NFL. Lets gather some more data, before making this decision, but its looking that way. We'll see how Patrick Turner turns out in 3 years.

Yeah the only healthy running back for the Cowboys last season was Tashard Choice, who carried the load and then some for GT.

LizardState
05-28-2009, 09:54 AM
Uhhhh, what? They didn't just put him at safety last year, he started at safety his first 2 years and actually got benched for the majority of last season. I don't see how you think he's overrated, he's a bust who was benched and almost cut. It's hard to be overrated when your not rated very highly. Heck, you even say it in your own post "he was rumored to be trade bait but his has experienced such devaluation after his horrible 08 performance I don't think anyone wants him".

And your wrong about his weakness, pass coverage was not his problem. That was pretty much the only area where he did a decent job. He was a bad tackler and he never became the "big play" guy he was supposed to be, he was just invisible. As for this year, he'll have to actually start in order to prove anything and I don't know if that will be happening.

BTW I only listed 3 players who were the #1 picks of teams, & didn't list players who need to put up b/c they were injured, if so I would have listed Alex Smith 1st. 5 different OCs & 5 different offensive systems in 5 yrs. isn't good for any team & that directly impacted Vernon Davis as mentioned. About him, I think his reputation as not a team player hurt him more than his performance, if he had kept his mouth shut & not criticized the situation (Martzball underutilizing him, the HC change, etc) he wouldn't have been scapegoated by a new coach looking to make an example of an underachiever. And I'm not faulting Singletary for that, he had to regain the 9ers locker room that Nolan lost when he threw Smith under the bus to save his own hanging by a slender thread job. teh new 9ers HC accomplished that by dropping his pants & mooning them in unison, it got their attention.

Lots of new HCs would have cut Davis to establish their authority but Singletary didn't, he just bitchslapped him in the press, they say humiliation is the strongest weapon there is & that's right, it works. He was dissing Davis, now he's praising him this offseason, tear a superstar egomaniac player down, then rebuild him up, oldest coaching technique there is, my HS coaches did it weekly & it still works today.

Every Bay Area sports publication focused on Huff as a player not living up to the hype & had problems in coverage in the early 08 season, which was a goddamn jk. Their offense was even worse at times, I think they had 37 passing yds. all freaking day in one game, just humiliating.

Chaos & anarchy in the Raiders front office emanated from the axis of the nuke explosion between Kiffin & Al Davis & it showed up in all aspects of the team. The Raiders took the field every Sunday like convicts on a chain gang forced to do a thankless task, very very bad team morale, they were obviously the victims of the Kiffin-Davis power struggle drawing huge headlines in the press. It was especially obvious in the secondary where DeAngelo Hall was supposed to elevate them as the strength of the team & it wasn't. IMO, Hall was made an example b/c Cable wanted to exert his authority & stabilize the Oakland pirate ship on the verge of total mutiny from wk. to wk., Huff looked actually better in coverage than the overpaid Hall from what I saw but the FA took the release, you're right about Huff missing way too many tackles. It was aggravating & painful to watch the Raiders defense that Ryan had built up to a very good, underrated one blow game after game last September & October.

The disgruntled Raiders continued making headlines all season, Asomugha bitched about being their FP player again b/c he knew it was going to happen & didn't think he could get the $ the NFL's top-ranked CB should receive, Lechler loudly bitched about wanting out, even got punched in the face on the team plane returning from one of their many road losses by a 330-lb. DT, they retained him as the highest paid punter in the game but with an offense as bad as theirs they couldn't afford to lose him. Yeah they kept both of them at higher salaries but I don't think they were/are happy campers in silver & black, & you could say the same about most of the roster last yr.

Cable has stabilized things somewhat & the team finished strong last yr. upsetting several teams & beating Tampa in TB to knock them out of the playoffs. They look to be better on both sides of the ball this yr., but if the same bickering in the front office happens again there will be hell to pay with assts. & players released early like last yr. -- it's never Al Davis' fault in the Oakland dog & pony show. You're probably right about Huff struggling to start this yr too, he's on the thinnest ice of the 3 players I listed.

And those who mentioned Ochocinco, Maroney & Jason Campbell nailed it too, they definitely belong here.

vikes_28
05-28-2009, 11:39 AM
Some vikes fan probably already said Tavaris Jackson. Visanthe Shiancoe, Sidney Rice, Cedric Griffen. Just to name a few.

CC.SD
05-28-2009, 11:57 AM
I forgot that guy even existed. When I read the name Buster Davis I thought of the 3rd round cardinals LB that was released in the same year he was drafted a couple years ago. That shows how big of a bust the WR Davis is.

Does he ever get onto the field? When watching Charger games I never seen him.



Most of those guys are trash, no one expects anything from them. Good collection of RBs though, they should try out the wild cat with McFadden throwing.

Against the Jets last year he had 3 consecutive 1st downs on 3rd down and got everyone thinking maybe he turned the corner.

In a nutshell he doesn't play with nagging injuries which makes him tough to support. When Chambers went down this year, he was slated to start but apparently during pre-game warmups, minutes before a game, informed Norv that he didn't feel ready to go...Norv was so pissed at this little stunt that he de-activated him for a while, and later put him on the IR.

He's on his last chance basically. He's got good size, speed, hands, and supposedly even routes, but that's not all it takes to be an NFL wideout apparently. You gotta have heart too.

edit; in retrospect, probably not his last chance with Chambers and Jackson due to be FAs after 09. You never know what happens and it will probably be nice to have a guy who has at least been in the NFL ready to step in. This is of course still dependent on the guy showing something, anything, this year. He has to probably beat out Malcom Floyd too if he wants any serious playing time, not a super easy task.

bigbluedefense
05-28-2009, 01:54 PM
For the Giants:

-Sinorice Moss: all the potential in the world to be a Wes Welker type of WR, but injuries and just a lack of production has really hurt him. He's too small, and it seems like he doesn't run many different kinds of patterns. Intelligence and work ethic could be issues. Ive all but given up on him. He'll probably get cut.

-Darcy Johnson: Dude supposedly has the potential to be better than Boss. Prove it. We drafted Travis Beckum and the 3rd TE spot is between you and a blocking TE. Prove your worth. I expect him to be solid but not spectacular, and get cut bc we just have too much depth to keep him.

-Guy Whimper: Solid backup swing tackle, but was drafted as a LT. We just drafted Beatty and youre in a contract year. Time to step up. I expect solid but not spectacular play, and will probably stay on the team and go somewhere else for more money next year.

-David Tyree: The greatest play in SB history was 2 years ago now. You can't live off of it anymore. I predict he stays as a special teams ace though, and bc Sinorice is useless freeing up a spot for him.

-Antonio Pierce: Youre one cheeseburger away from getting cut after this year fat ass.

-Aaron Ross: Great rookie year, poor sophomore year. From studying him, I expect more of his sophomore year than rookie year. He's a solid but not spectacular CB. He doesn't have the hips or top end speed to be great.

SuperMcGee
05-28-2009, 02:43 PM
Donte Whitner - pretty good starter, defensive leader, but not a top-10 pick. He needs to be one of the best players on our defense. He dealt with injuries and had to be moved around last year, but he just hasn't gotten much better since his rookie year.

Trent Edwards - Sorry about the line. Now go show that you can be a franchise QB.

Every defensive end on the team
- Pick #11 just went to a pass rusher because nobody on the team can get to the QB. Schobel needs to be healthy and show that he can still play like one of the better ends in the conference. Kelsay needs to give an ounce of justification for his horrendous contract. These two are our starters and have huge contracts. Add in another big contract for the first round defensive end, something's got to give. Chris Ellis was a recent 3rd round pick who just had his role poached by somebody better. Ryan Denney will always be a good depth guy but he could find his role diminished with these young guys being worked in. Copeland Bryan had an impressive year at the low end of the depth chart, but he'll have to fight for his time.

BufFan71
05-28-2009, 02:56 PM
Donte Whitner




can we see u make an interception? Heck, can i see u make a play on the field? at least a big hit maybe?

BuckNaked
05-28-2009, 03:20 PM
Some vikes fan probably already said Tavaris Jackson. Visanthe Shiancoe, Sidney Rice, Cedric Griffen. Just to name a few.

Ryan Cook, I will hit that weak excuse of a man square in the jaw if necessary.

bored of education
05-28-2009, 04:48 PM
Derrick Johnson, Tamba Hali, Tank Tyler to name a few.

MetSox17
05-28-2009, 05:06 PM
Roy E. Williams.

C'mon, shut all the haters up!

Bills2083
05-28-2009, 05:32 PM
Buffalo Bills

Donte Whitner - He guaranteed playoffs last year and that ended up being a dumb thing. He has 2 interceptions in 3 years. It's time for him to live up to his statements and warrant being chosen #8 overall.

John McCargo - The Bills spent a 2nd/3rd to move into the 1st for him. He's failed miserably so far. They attempted to trade him to the Colts last year for a 5th round pick. It would have gone through had he not failed his physical. He said he's been working real hard this offseason to get better, but shouldn't he have been the past 2? If he doesn't perform he'll be gone.

Aaron Schobel/Chris Kelsay/Ryan Denney - Can you please get to the quarterback? The main reason why the defense failed is because you could not create pressure.

CC.SD
05-28-2009, 06:31 PM
I didn't realize Whitner had come full circle and was a ridiculous reach again. I saw him play a few times and he seemed like a very nice safety, very much a blue chipper.

SuperMcGee
05-28-2009, 06:54 PM
It looks worse than it is when it's posted three times in a row.
He could definitely be better, though, and we're at the point where we're expecting and needing it.

Bills2083
05-28-2009, 07:57 PM
It looks worse than it is when it's posted three times in a row.
He could definitely be better, though, and we're at the point where we're expecting and needing it.

Much of it has to do with the lack of a pass-rush, which is essential to the cover-2.
If the defense gives the QB time in the pocket he'll be able to pick apart the defense with ease.

Hopefully with Maybin and Schobel back, the pass-rush will improve, causing Whitner to too.

The Great Jonathan Vilma
05-28-2009, 09:51 PM
People forget that he's still 22 (23 in september) he's got plenty of time to mature and get right in the league.

there are many people who would disagree. You don't get freebies/potential love all your life. He his chances are now, and it will be an upward challenge the rest of the way.....

The Great Jonathan Vilma
05-28-2009, 09:55 PM
You can't really fault Whitner based on where he was drafted, he didn't draft himself. As a player, he needs to make more plays, its just that simple. He's a solid player, but he's nothign more until he makes some impact plays, which thus far he's failed to do.

yodabear
05-29-2009, 12:34 AM
Let me try to think of some for the Rams.

1. Marc Bulger- While I am still a big supporter of him, a huge rift in the fan base has developed over him. If he is good then he can prove that he is just fine and that no QB would be good on these past couple Rams teams. If he struggles again then it will have been three straight poor seasons.

2. Alex Barron- For the most part he would have to be classified as a disappointment, though I don't think he has been as bad as some others do. It's his contract year and h is being moved to LT, which most feel is his natural position. He needs to play better and severly cut down on the penalties.

3. Richie Incognito- Another polarizing player among Rams fans. Some feel that he an idiot, others feel he is just emotional. Some feel he is a plus player, others feel he is a minus player. Well, we'll see this year.

4. Tye Hill- He is probably on his last life with the Rams. He was solid his rookie season, seemed to get better his second season until getting hurt, and was absolutely horrid last year. I still think he could become something, but I'm in the minority.

5. Steven Jackson- As amazing as it may seem, some Rams fans have a problem with him. In my opinion it's because he isn't Marshall Faulk. I'm kidding about having to prove himself though, I mean get real idiotic small segment of Rams fans.

The top 4 of these I agree with. If we don't get a solid year from Bulger, we will be drafting in the top few again, and we will take a QB. I have never been a fan of Incognito, in my mind he has already shut up. Barron is a huge disappointment, and thats why we had to take Jason Smith. Hill needs to do something. And I know what u are saying about Jackson. Not just Rams fans, but moronic fans of the NFL who think they know what they are talking about. Without Steven Jackson, there are two 0-16 teams last season.

BlindSite
05-29-2009, 03:52 AM
there are many people who would disagree. You don't get freebies/potential love all your life. He his chances are now, and it will be an upward challenge the rest of the way.....

They'd be wrong since very few people have properly followed his career.

At 20, he came into a complicated offense that lost it's QB in the fourth game of the season, he then had testaverde, a sophmore with no NFL starts and David Carr chucking passes. None of whom were much chop.

Last year he didn't exactly light up the score board, but with two backs and two receivers who had 4000 yards offense between them there weren't a lot of touches to a guy who was splitting time as the third receiver, not to mention the fact that Davidson's system is pretty heavy on passing to ends and backs.

Even so there were a number of games where he provided key blocks that sprung either Smitty or the backs on large gains and one or two games where his receptions, though nothing large on the stat sheet came up HUGE when necessary.

The guy doesn't need to be an all-pro, quietly last year Mushin Muhummad had 923 yards on 65 catches, so he doesn't need to even be a productive number two. All he has to do is continue doing what he's doing which is making grabs on third down as a slot guy until Moose moves on.

Jarrett isn't a starter, I don't understand why people are hating on the guy for doing nothing wrong but working hard since his second year began and doing everything asked of him.

McBain
05-29-2009, 04:15 AM
I don't disagree on any particular trait...I feel like if Ryan were picked AHEAD of Peyton he would be the worst pick of allzz timez but oh well. Bygones will be bygones and all that. It brings me great joy to see him in trouble with the law.

Leaf vs Smith

I take smith as a bigger bust. Smith was picked higher, the 49ers actually pulled the trigger, (they could have just as easily gone rodgers) and there career stats are similar. Alex Smith had one year where he could almost be considered mediocre but in truth he was just below average. Also i think leaf was the better prospect of the two.... if we could draft them against each other not knowing they would both be collosal failures i'd take leaf.

D4rk 0ne
05-29-2009, 06:06 AM
I forgot that guy even existed. When I read the name Buster Davis I thought of the 3rd round cardinals LB that was released in the same year he was drafted a couple years ago. That shows how big of a bust the WR Davis is.

Does he ever get onto the field? When watching Charger games I never seen him.



Most of those guys are trash, no one expects anything from them. Good collection of RBs though, they should try out the wild cat with McFadden throwing.

Hmm...

Zach Miller is already one of the most reliable receiving TEs in the AFC just two years into his career. If he's not a Pro Bowler within another two I'll be surprised. He's also more than solid as a blocker...

Their WRs are young and unproven, but there is some talent there if you look at the group. Chaz Schilens was a key factor in the Raiders "winning streak" at the end of the season. He deserved to get PT much sooner than he did. I don't expect much from DHB or Murphy, but I do think Schilens will turn a lot of heads. I expect him to end the year with somewhere around 50-60 receptions. If he can put up solid numbers, that will go a long way toward legitimizing the Raiders' offense.

JLH is solid, although I'm not a huge fan of his as a WR. He has to have a good year for me to consider him worth keeping around. So he and DHB are definitely guys that need to produce, or the passing offense will flounder. And really it won't be Russell's fault. He doesn't get nearly enough credit. He had a mediocre beginning to the 2008 season, but over the second half he put up quite good numbers, and was very consistent in doing so. Hopefully the Raiders can establish some consistency in the coaching/management, and then the current unit will be able to progress. They have made some positive changes to the line. Jamarcus is developing better than most people care to notice. They have a very good core of RBs who are poised to tear it up this season barring injuries. The WRs are young and bursting with potential. If they can tap into that, things could come together nicely for Oakland and you may be surprised by their offense this year.


My pick...

Manny Lawson: Hasn't had a chance to really show what he can do, but if he doesn't make an impact this season it may be time to consider looking for someone else. He has so much potential and he has done some good things with the Niners, but he hasn't been able to consistently provide the pass rush that is needed out of him. I believe he will step up this year and at the very least do what the team needs out of him, and possibly then some.

Dam8610
05-29-2009, 08:24 AM
For the Colts, Antoine Bethea.

He's in a contract year and after being a revelation early on, his play really tailed off last year. I hope he bounces back to his form in the Superbowl years, because if he doesn't he may be out the door.

I think the added bulk upfront will help Bethea most of anyone on the defense. Last year, there were times where the Colts had to play 9 in the box to stop the run, and when Sanders went down, he was asked at times to step into that role and become the run help, something he's not very good at. With the added bulk upfront, Bethea should be allowed to do what he does best this year: roam deep in coverage, be the last line of defense, and punish receivers who catch balls in his area.

I would say the put up or shut up player on the Colts is actually a unit, that being the OL. Last year their performance, especially in the running game, was extremely lackluster, but hopefully with an offseason of healing and maturing, they can come up with five guys who can stay healthy, gel, and get much closer to the type of consistency we saw in 06 than the utter chaos we saw in 08.

The Great Jonathan Vilma
05-29-2009, 09:02 AM
They'd be wrong since very few people have properly followed his career.

At 20, he came into a complicated offense that lost it's QB in the fourth game of the season, he then had testaverde, a sophmore with no NFL starts and David Carr chucking passes. None of whom were much chop.

Last year he didn't exactly light up the score board, but with two backs and two receivers who had 4000 yards offense between them there weren't a lot of touches to a guy who was splitting time as the third receiver, not to mention the fact that Davidson's system is pretty heavy on passing to ends and backs.

Even so there were a number of games where he provided key blocks that sprung either Smitty or the backs on large gains and one or two games where his receptions, though nothing large on the stat sheet came up HUGE when necessary.

The guy doesn't need to be an all-pro, quietly last year Mushin Muhummad had 923 yards on 65 catches, so he doesn't need to even be a productive number two. All he has to do is continue doing what he's doing which is making grabs on third down as a slot guy until Moose moves on.

Jarrett isn't a starter, I don't understand why people are hating on the guy for doing nothing wrong but working hard since his second year began and doing everything asked of him.

Okay Blindside, i guess he's not in a must produce year. He can keep doing what he's doing, catching 16 passes in 2 years. The blocks will be sufficient (lets really focus on the positives here). I mean, the low catch numbers are due to the RBs, TE, and other WRs getting all the burn! He's been busting his ass and doing everything asked of him! I bold the statement that he worked hard all of last year, so 50% of his career so far, and all that is fine, maybe he needed that year, but doing everything you are asked to do isn't much of a factor if you really aren't being asked to contribute much and have a tough time seeing the field....those things say somethign too.

No one is really hating on the guy like you said, but if saying that this is a year in which he needs to make steps and contribute at least 30 catches is hating, then i guess so be it. He's entering his 3rd season, which is usually a big one for WRs. To this point, he has been below the average line for which young WRs have been judged, and has for at least half of his career (i'll take your word for it) been lazy and uninterested. Like it or lump it, you have a period like that and you are viewed in a less favourable light and you better do something to shed it. Making a solid block in the run game is great, you want that effort, but you want a WR who can block AND be a weapon/reliable option in the pass game.

I hope he makes it. He would be a great guy to replace Moose. I stand by my statement though. He has this season to show he can contribute to the team in the passing game or he has an upward battle the rest of the way. The thought process that 'he's young and developing' will be removed and replaced with 'this guy hasn't put it together in 3 years, we need to look at other possible options if he can't cut it'.

phlysac
05-29-2009, 09:27 AM
if we could draft them against each other not knowing they would both be collosal failures i'd take leaf.
There are teams that would've drafted Ryan Leaf ahead of Peyton Manning.


Ryan Leaf --- 4 wins - 17 losses - 317-655 - 48.4% - 3666 yards - 14 TD - 36 Int - 65 Sacks
Alex Smith - 11 wins - 19 losses - 435-800 - 54.4% - 4679 yards - 19 TD - 31 Int - 81 Sacks

619
05-29-2009, 09:31 AM
For the Raiders, three in particular - Russell, Huff, Walker

Also, for Dwayne Jarrett, it wouldn't shock me to see him hit 40-50 catches in what is now going to be his third season. There's too much hate going his way, he's not Mike Williams.

The Great Jonathan Vilma
05-29-2009, 10:53 AM
For the Raiders, three in particular - Russell, Huff, Walker

Also, for Dwayne Jarrett, it wouldn't shock me to see him hit 40-50 catches in what is now going to be his third season. There's too much hate going his way, he's not Mike Williams.

I don't get saying its 'hate'. It is not 'hating' to say that this is potentially a make-or-break season for him. What he does this year will very well determine the direction he's going.....how is that hate? We can all just sit and say 'this is the year he's breaking out, no doubt', but that is not realistic. Saying this is a big season for him is not a stretch. Teams don't wait forever.

What does 'he's not Mike Williams' even mean?

619
05-29-2009, 11:52 AM
I don't get saying its 'hate'. It is not 'hating' to say that this is potentially a make-or-break season for him. What he does this year will very well determine the direction he's going.....how is that hate? We can all just sit and say 'this is the year he's breaking out, no doubt', but that is not realistic. Saying this is a big season for him is not a stretch. Teams don't wait forever.

What does 'he's not Mike Williams' even mean?

Not you, just in general. I probably should've been more specific, sorry.

He's not Mike Williams meaning whatever he amounted to shouldn't be expected of him because of the obvious similarities between the two receivers. Jarrett has come a long way since his rookie year, in terms of work ethic and figuring out what it takes to be successful. I’m more optimistic about his chances now than I was when he first declared because I, too, was a part of that crowd that thought it’d be best for him to stay on for his senior year. It may not have reflected on the stats sheet yet, but it's certainly coming. Posting up a career similar close to that of his mentor Keyshawn Johnson both as a receiver and blocker is attainable imo. I don’t doubt it one second.

ATLDirtyBirds
05-29-2009, 01:25 PM
Jamaal Anderson. He is pathetic in every sense of the word. Good run defender? Yes. But he's still ******* awful. 2 sacks in two seasons after being the #8 pick. Did I mention there is an elite pass-rusher at the other DE position? He's just not all that strong for as big as he is, isn't very quick off the ball, and just sucks ass altogether. He really needs to step it the **** up.

McBain
05-29-2009, 01:34 PM
[/B]
There are teams that would've drafted Ryan Leaf ahead of Peyton Manning.


Ryan Leaf --- 4 wins - 17 losses - 317-655 - 48.4% - 3666 yards - 14 TD - 36 Int - 65 Sacks
Alex Smith - 11 wins - 19 losses - 435-800 - 54.4% - 4679 yards - 19 TD - 31 Int - 81 Sacks

So what?

This does nothing to take away from the fact that if they were drafted again and somehow at the same time... as a prospect i'd take leaf.

The Great Jonathan Vilma
05-29-2009, 01:39 PM
Not you, just in general. I probably should've been more specific, sorry.

He's not Mike Williams meaning whatever he amounted to shouldn't be expected of him because of the obvious similarities between the two receivers. Jarrett has come a long way since his rookie year, in terms of work ethic and figuring out what it takes to be successful. Iím more optimistic about his chances now than I was when he first declared because I, too, was a part of that crowd that thought itíd be best for him to stay on for his senior year. It may not have reflected on the stats sheet yet, but it's certainly coming. Posting up a career similar close to that of his mentor Keyshawn Johnson both as a receiver and blocker is attainable imo. I donít doubt it one second.

I agree that the two shouldn't necessarily be compared, even though they are from the same school and have similar traits, but they will be so long as they both fall into the same unperforming category. Mike Williams will put a cloud over Jarrett until Jarrett pulls himself out of it. Sad but true.

It is great to hear Jarrett got his act together and is taking this seriously now, as that is the only way he'll have a chance to have a decent career. He could do a Keyshawn Johnson (lesser years) type of thing, but those are a long way off and taking the best case scenario. Many things players do don't show in the stat sheet, and it is great when players continue to do those things knowing that they don't. As a WR, much is also determined in the stat sheet, so i'll take it that is the area where he needs to now produce.

I THINK we are on the same page. You agree this could be a defining year for Jarrett right? It may not end a career, but this could be the end of the 'grace' period by which a young player is given time to show what he has. If it isn't this season, those opportunities are going to be harder to attain.

BlindSite
05-29-2009, 04:10 PM
I agree that the two shouldn't necessarily be compared, even though they are from the same school and have similar traits, but they will be so long as they both fall into the same unperforming category. Mike Williams will put a cloud over Jarrett until Jarrett pulls himself out of it. Sad but true.

It is great to hear Jarrett got his act together and is taking this seriously now, as that is the only way he'll have a chance to have a decent career. He could do a Keyshawn Johnson (lesser years) type of thing, but those are a long way off and taking the best case scenario. Many things players do don't show in the stat sheet, and it is great when players continue to do those things knowing that they don't. As a WR, much is also determined in the stat sheet, so i'll take it that is the area where he needs to now produce.

I THINK we are on the same page. You agree this could be a defining year for Jarrett right? It may not end a career, but this could be the end of the 'grace' period by which a young player is given time to show what he has. If it isn't this season, those opportunities are going to be harder to attain.

This would be correct if he hadn't done what was needed of him, but he has. Sure I'd like to see 50 catches and a bunch of touchdowns, but it's not the system the panthers run and it's not going to happen on a run first team.

The team is happy with him, his career isn't ending any time soon.

619
05-29-2009, 04:21 PM
I THINK we are on the same page. You agree this could be a defining year for Jarrett right? It may not end a career, but this could be the end of the 'grace' period by which a young player is given time to show what he has. If it isn't this season, those opportunities are going to be harder to attain.

Oh yeah. This is his time, although it'd be more fair to judge once Moose is gone. We all know that combo of Smith and Jarrett would compliment each other extremely well, maybe even this season. It's just more of when that will happen for Jarrett, and I think we both agree there too.

What's most important is that he has the full support of the organization and QB. They expect it out of him, and that can only help his cause if they're willing to give him the opportunities to succeed. One thing I can be sure of now than before, is if he doesn't meet expectations this year, it wouldn't be because of a lack of effort, and that's much more than I could've said about him a few seasons back.

phlysac
05-29-2009, 04:31 PM
So what?

This does nothing to take away from the fact that if they were drafted again and somehow at the same time... as a prospect i'd take leaf.

No, but I wasn't illustrating that. Several NFL GMs would've drafted Ryan Leaf over Peyton Manning so I don't dispute he'd be drafted ahead of Alex Smith. That fact, along with Smith's better numbers (whom are better, not "similar") makes it pretty obvious that Leaf was/is a far bigger bust.

CC.SD
05-29-2009, 04:36 PM
What does 'he's not Mike Williams' even mean?

Well, it can't be a bad thing...

I remember in 05 I really wanted a pass rusher, but was still disappointed that BMW got snatched 2 picks before us.

Oh NFL draft, you deceptive *****.

McBain
05-29-2009, 10:30 PM
No, but I wasn't illustrating that. Several NFL GMs would've drafted Ryan Leaf over Peyton Manning so I don't dispute he'd be drafted ahead of Alex Smith. That fact, along with Smith's better numbers (whom are better, not "similar") makes it pretty obvious that Leaf was/is a far bigger bust.

How does the fact that other GMs may have picked leaf number one make him a bigger bust? For all you know he would have been an MVP in on those teams. Smith has had one season where he hasn't been one the worst Qbs in the league.

ironman4579
05-29-2009, 10:54 PM
This would be correct if he hadn't done what was needed of him, but he has. Sure I'd like to see 50 catches and a bunch of touchdowns, but it's not the system the panthers run and it's not going to happen on a run first team.

The team is happy with him, his career isn't ending any time soon.

He was the 7th leading receiver on your team last year. He may have done what was needed, blocking well etc., but I doubt he's done what was expected by the team when they drafted him. I don't think he's being cut, but this is certainly a year in which he needs to step up and produce more as an actual pass catching threat.

YAYareaRB
05-29-2009, 11:13 PM
All in all.. in my view, comparing who's a bigger bust is like comparing who's more pregnant. Either way, you're team is screwed and either way a baby is gonna pop out.

Jamal Smith
05-29-2009, 11:24 PM
Erin Andrews.

Wait, did you say put out or put up?

BlindSite
05-30-2009, 02:37 AM
He was the 7th leading receiver on your team last year. He may have done what was needed, blocking well etc., but I doubt he's done what was expected by the team when they drafted him. I don't think he's being cut, but this is certainly a year in which he needs to step up and produce more as an actual pass catching threat.

As I mentioned the system that has been installed is more conducive to the starting WRs, backs and tight ends, not to mention he split time with Hackett as the third receiver.

So you're saying it's a bad thing the fourth receiver was the 7th leading guy behind at least 5 guys who're naturally in better position in their role within the offense to catch passes.

What next you're going to call a backup cornerback a bust for not having 10 interceptions...

He's developing, people forget the VAST majority of WRs in the NFL take around 3 years to come into their own, and he wasn't an experienced college WR so he's just now rounding into that range of experience and age where he's expected to become a serious NFL contributor.

Thecollegedropout
05-30-2009, 02:56 AM
For the Jets:

Brad Smith WR
-Talent, talent, and more talent. I hope now that he is actually getting the chance to be a true WR not Mangini's toy, he will prove how good he really is. He's had more than enough time to learn the position.

Kellen Clemens QB
-He was a 2nd round pick who has shown flashes but has lost the off season QB battle for the past 2 years. Now that Sanchez is here he needs to finally show that he is a NFL starting QB before Sanchez gets the chance to start. I've always said he has the potential, but he needs to start playing up to it.
I will add one more here

DE/OLB Vernon Gholston
- 6th overall pick in 2008 NFL Draft and spent a year struggling and learning the playbook and entire NFL gamespeed and game. At one point was dis activated by Mangini vs The Bills and was somewhat called out by both fans and the media. New coach, new defensive coordinator, new motivation. You can get away with learning and being ineffective year 1 but it is time to show your worth as the 6th overall pick of the draft and to at least show PROGRESS and SOMETHING and CONTRIBUTE to the team. Not asking for a Mario Williams jump but just matter on the field and to be a guy can rush effectively. If he has a repeat year, I dont like how things will turn out for the man regarding his future with the Jets..........I have hope and confidence in the man though. Need to put up though, he knows too.

Id like to say Mark Sanchez regarding the playbook and learning too. Alot of publicity, modeling, and media chatter, we just need him to learn the playbook and to get a good understand of the NFL. Thats all, anything more than that is gravy.

Shahin
05-30-2009, 01:51 PM
i don't know if anybody's mentioned him yet but:
http://imgs.sfgate.com/c/pictures/2007/12/03/sp_raiders03_084pc.jpg

it's not all good Jamarcus, it's NOT ALL GOOD.

CC.SD
05-30-2009, 02:05 PM
i don't know if anybody's mentioned him yet but:
http://imgs.sfgate.com/c/pictures/2007/12/03/sp_raiders03_084pc.jpg

it's not all good Jamarcus, it's NOT ALL GOOD.

"I will gladly play on Tuesday, for a hamburger today!"

Yesss Popeye reference...

ATLDirtyBirds
05-30-2009, 03:50 PM
"I will gladly play on Tuesday, for a hamburger today!"

Yesss Popeye reference...


http://www.partychaser.com/app/photogallery/albums/BUDAH%209%2003-08-09/107.jpg

http://www.partychaser.com/app/photogallery/albums/BUDAH%209%2003-08-09/104.jpg

Shahin
05-30-2009, 04:12 PM
http://www.partychaser.com/app/photogallery/albums/BUDAH%209%2003-08-09/107.jpg

http://www.partychaser.com/app/photogallery/albums/BUDAH%209%2003-08-09/104.jpg

******* *****

sweetness34
05-30-2009, 07:38 PM
Two words: Tommie Harris

Or well actually it's one name. :D

Niners_2152
05-30-2009, 09:54 PM
bear pascoe is nowhere near as good a blocker as veron davis

Yeah and Bajama is a Ram now.

TT Gator
05-30-2009, 10:50 PM
Even though he's just going into his second year I have to say
NY Jets-Vernon Gholston I mean this guy was a sack machine in college he had 30.5 TFL and 22.5 sacks in 25 games where he started. He ran a 4.58 40 at 266 pounds, he had 37 reps at 225 pounds, and was one of only 2 players to record a sack on #1 pick LT Jake Long. So the Jets draft him #6 overall and give him a 5-year $50 million dollar contract(21 million guaranteed) So what does he do in 2008? Get's 13 tackles with only 5 solo tackles. I'm sorry I understand it's hard to adjust but a good pass rusher shouldn't be that horrible when all thats really changed is your standing up instead of down. He needs to come out in '09 and have a killer season cuz most ppl are already calling him a bust.
Cleveland Browns-Braylon Edwards As someone said earlier when Edwards is on, he's one of the Top 5 best WRs in the league but last year he had way too many dropped balls. Also while he wasen't horrible last year he only had 3 TDs! Which is horrible if your Braylon Edwards. He needs to step is game up cuz Mangini (idiot) has already put him on the trading block and if he has a bad season he may find himself out in the cold.
Also while he's not on one of my teams I think Chad Johnson is def on a put up or shut up year. He had his worst stats since his rookie year in '08, Palmer will be back but I think it has to do more wit Ocho Cinco(lol) then who's the QB. He's a distraction and while he's always been one he also used to put up big numbers. I see him having another bad to average year, I think he'll leave Cincy in FA, and the Bengals are gonna wish they had traded him to Washington for those two 1st rounders during the '08 offseason.

The Great Jonathan Vilma
05-30-2009, 11:44 PM
the Bengals are gonna wish they had traded him to Washington for those two 1st rounders during the '08 offseason.

If they don't already regret it, then something is wrong. The fact that they didn't accept that deal in the first place is the reason the Bengals are the Bengals.....and JaMarcus looks slightly ******** in the picture above.

jkpigskin
06-03-2009, 09:54 PM
He is statistically the most improved QB in NFL history, gets the crap beat out of him, and misses the next two years, and his time is up?

i guess my "time is up" comment was kind of misinterpreted.

i think the last line best sums up wat i was trying to say

I'm trying to figure out how Alex Smith could've improved last season considering he was placed on IR in the preseason. He hasn't thrown a regular season pass with a healthy shoulder since the 4th week of the 2007 season. He is also still just 25 years of age.

But along with the topic of the thread... He's not on my list because he has already lost his starting job and taken a huge paycut. Therefore, he can only rebuild a reputation already lost, not have one final chance at keeping the reputation.

Alex Smith is still young, and something made him the #1 pick, but now, its about rebuilding his reputation and play. Many people have ridden him off so he doesnt really fit into the topic of this thread

jsa230
06-03-2009, 10:28 PM
Green Bay

Harrell just needs to stay healthy
B Jax " "
jMike - not really a put up or shut up sit. but i would def like to see some improvements after his rookie season.


Charles Woodson - He still isnt putting up the numbers he did at michigan.

the decider13
06-03-2009, 10:49 PM
Fat Jamarcus makes me laugh

Sniper
06-04-2009, 02:38 AM
Charles Woodson - He still isnt putting up the numbers he did at michigan.

Dumbest post ever? I certainly think so.

Sniper
06-04-2009, 02:45 AM
Woodson's Heisman year

12 GP, 47 tackles, 5 TFL, 1 sack, 8 INT, 9 PBU

Woodson's 2008 All-Pro year

16 GP, 62 tackles, 4 TFL, 3 sacks, 1 FF, 7 INT (2 TD), 24.1 yards per average INT return, 17 PBU.

Gee, I sure do hope he starts producing. :rolleyes:

princefielder28
06-04-2009, 08:22 AM
Dumbest post ever? I certainly think so.

If it's not the dumbest, it is definitely Top 5.

The Great Jonathan Vilma
06-04-2009, 08:47 AM
Dumbest post ever? I certainly think so.

It is dumb, but i look at both your and my sigs, and it hits me....there have been some pretty dumb things said. This is maybe Top 10.

fenikz
06-04-2009, 12:46 PM
Jay Cutler

msolimani
06-04-2009, 01:42 PM
Jay Cutler

I'd definitely be in favor of the shut up part for him. He has all of the media attention Brett Favre gets except he doesn't have the wins, respect, or super bowl title. But he shouldn't be on here b/c he's going to get every chance to succeed and will be the starter in 2010 no matter what.

Gay Ork Wang
06-04-2009, 01:43 PM
I'd definitely be in favor of the shut up part for him. He has all of the media attention Brett Favre gets except he doesn't have the wins, respect, or super bowl title. But he shouldn't be on here b/c he's going to get every chance to succeed and will be the starter in 2010 no matter what.
did he actually say anything ever before the trade talks?

The Great Jonathan Vilma
06-04-2009, 02:49 PM
I'd definitely be in favor of the shut up part for him. He has all of the media attention Brett Favre gets except he doesn't have the wins, respect, or super bowl title. But he shouldn't be on here b/c he's going to get every chance to succeed and will be the starter in 2010 no matter what.

Pretty sure he didn't really do anything close to Favre. The fact that the media spoke about it so much is not an indication of the amonut of talk Cutler did. Favre was constantly saying things and drawing attention. Cutler didn't talk to the camera's and demand attention. His coach was a cocky liar who was trying to go behind his back, got caught, lied about it, and basically showed no support to his QB. Why not demand a trade to get away from a loser like that? Totally different situations IMO and you can't compare the two.

Cutler isn't in a make or break year because he's already 'made' it, and even if he 'breaks' it this year, he's not oging anywhere and he will get many more chances. The idea of 'make or break' is essentially this is a last chance before people give up on you, at least to me.

OneToughGame
06-04-2009, 03:25 PM
It is dumb, but i look at both your and my sigs, and it hits me....there have been some pretty dumb things said. This is maybe Top 10.
The quote in yours is easily top 5.

Timbathia
06-04-2009, 09:03 PM
Pretty sure he didn't really do anything close to Favre. The fact that the media spoke about it so much is not an indication of the amonut of talk Cutler did. Favre was constantly saying things and drawing attention. Cutler didn't talk to the camera's and demand attention. His coach was a cocky liar who was trying to go behind his back, got caught, lied about it, and basically showed no support to his QB. Why not demand a trade to get away from a loser like that? Totally different situations IMO and you can't compare the two.

Cutler isn't in a make or break year because he's already 'made' it, and even if he 'breaks' it this year, he's not oging anywhere and he will get many more chances. The idea of 'make or break' is essentially this is a last chance before people give up on you, at least to me.

Every year players get put on the trade block - almost all of them say stuff like "I just need to work hard to show the organisation that I am a valuable asset". Cutler didnt. He cried to his agent, and refused to talk to McDaniels or Bowlen (gave them the old upset kid silent treatment). He had his agent ask the Broncos for a trade, which they finally gave him. McDaniels may have lied about who said what, but simple fact is Cutler took an incident that is a normal part of the business and cried about it.

Cutler isnt in a make or break year, but his reputation is. The whole football world is interested to see what happens when he plays on a run-first football team with janitors at wide-out. Bears fans are expecting him to take them to a NFC championship game (because even Orton who everyone apparently thinks is a boob can take them to the playoffs). If he cant win the division, then you can hang the over-rated tag on him along with the cry-baby one.

msolimani
06-04-2009, 09:34 PM
Pretty sure he didn't really do anything close to Favre. The fact that the media spoke about it so much is not an indication of the amonut of talk Cutler did. Favre was constantly saying things and drawing attention. Cutler didn't talk to the camera's and demand attention. His coach was a cocky liar who was trying to go behind his back, got caught, lied about it, and basically showed no support to his QB. Why not demand a trade to get away from a loser like that? Totally different situations IMO and you can't compare the two.


Obviously the two situations are different, I thought that went with out saying. But you absolutely can compare the two from a media attention standpoint, which is what I was trying to do. Cutler could have easily ended that trade situation but he and his agent let it drag out, and what I was basically saying was I was tired of hearing about him (kind of like that QB who wears #4).

The Great Jonathan Vilma
06-04-2009, 11:11 PM
Eh, view it how you wish, but i disagree. Cutler didn't want to play for the Broncos, did the talking through his agent and got what he requested. He didn't 'whine', he said he wanted to be traded from a D-bag coach. The coach was young, unproven, and cocky, to go along with a liar....way to introduce yourself. Favre went after media attention and did his talking through them. The Broncos and McDaniels did the talking in that show.

Demanding a trade doesn't put him in the same books as Favre. Saying you were tired of hearing about him is fine, but look at the two situations and why you were hearing about it. One - player constantly talking and looking for attention. Two - media and franchise constantly talking about it, not the player.

Not going to the NFC title game will not put the 'bust' label on him....sorry.

Timbathia
06-04-2009, 11:22 PM
Not going to the NFC title game will not put the 'bust' label on him....sorry.

Said over-rated, not bust. All da Bears fans are expecting him to take them to that game. If he cant do it with that def and running game, then what would you call him?

Mr. Hero
06-04-2009, 11:42 PM
Said over-rated, not bust. All da Bears fans are expecting him to take them to that game. If he cant do it with that def and running game, then what would you call him?

A mortal, but we all know cutlers more than that.

the decider13
06-05-2009, 12:11 AM
People always say how cocky McDaniels is, yet no one throws stones Cutler's way? Mr. "I have a bigger arm than Elway". He also recently said that he was the reason Marshall and Royal were so good and that Chicago's receivers were on par with Denver's.

I'm all for optimism, but the guy thinks he is gods gift to earth. He is a good player, but I was unaware that Cutler made Royal such a great route runner. Or that he made Royal fast. Or that he made Marshall break tackles for crazy runs after the catch.

terribletowel39
06-05-2009, 08:38 AM
People always say how cocky McDaniels is, yet no one throws stones Cutler's way? Mr. "I have a bigger arm than Elway". He also recently said that he was the reason Marshall and Royal were so good and that Chicago's receivers were on par with Denver's.

I'm all for optimism, but the guy thinks he is gods gift to earth. He is a good player, but I was unaware that Cutler made Royal such a great route runner. Or that he made Royal fast. Or that he made Marshall break tackles for crazy runs after the catch.
Well, now you know.

The Great Jonathan Vilma
06-05-2009, 11:54 AM
Said over-rated, not bust. All da Bears fans are expecting him to take them to that game. If he cant do it with that def and running game, then what would you call him?

My mistake, i guess i got into the post and didn't look back. I'm not sure i'd say over-rated, but rather maybe disappointing (for Bear fans). I'm not sure i expect them to get that far, but other expectations are probably different. This is a 'win now' league and people may overreact and not realize that getting a QB like Cutler was not just a one/two year thing, he is a long-term solution for this team.....

People always say how cocky McDaniels is, yet no one throws stones Cutler's way? Mr. "I have a bigger arm than Elway". He also recently said that he was the reason Marshall and Royal were so good and that Chicago's receivers were on par with Denver's.

I'm all for optimism, but the guy thinks he is gods gift to earth. He is a good player, but I was unaware that Cutler made Royal such a great route runner. Or that he made Royal fast. Or that he made Marshall break tackles for crazy runs after the catch.

He is a bit over-confident, and the vocal stuff i don't agree with. However, one can't argue that McDaniels did not handle the situation like a man of accountability would, instead chose the 'behind-the-back' technique. I honestly can't blame Cutler for wanting out of there, maybe that is why i'm biased on the trade situation.

The bigger arm than Elway comment is a little out there, and i'm not sure why he would even think to say that. Also Marshall and Royal are obviously real good talents at WR. I would think he's trying to pump up his own WR's more than he is trying to bring those two guys down. I'm not in his head though, so i could be wrong. They obviously all worked well together and helped one another in the system.

Back to the point though - I don't consider this a make-or-break season for Cutler, as i believe his situation has at least a 2 year period and if nothing has occured by then, year 3 will be his 'make-or-break'.

Gay Ork Wang
06-05-2009, 12:13 PM
idk about the other bear fans, but i hope for a playoff berth, maybe the division crown.

superman8456
06-05-2009, 12:17 PM
idk about the other bear fans, but i hope for a playoff berth, maybe the division crown.

I think you guys will be 2nd in the division behind the Vikings.

Dam8610
06-05-2009, 01:48 PM
Every year players get put on the trade block - almost all of them say stuff like "I just need to work hard to show the organisation that I am a valuable asset". Cutler didnt. He cried to his agent, and refused to talk to McDaniels or Bowlen (gave them the old upset kid silent treatment). He had his agent ask the Broncos for a trade, which they finally gave him. McDaniels may have lied about who said what, but simple fact is Cutler took an incident that is a normal part of the business and cried about it.

Cutler isnt in a make or break year, but his reputation is. The whole football world is interested to see what happens when he plays on a run-first football team with janitors at wide-out. Bears fans are expecting him to take them to a NFC championship game (because even Orton who everyone apparently thinks is a boob can take them to the playoffs). If he cant win the division, then you can hang the over-rated tag on him along with the cry-baby one.

Are you serious with this? Where to start:

McDaniels tried to trade a better QB for his guy (mistake)

McDaniels let this go public (mistake)

McDaniels, trying to pull a power play, refused to tell his franchise QB that he'd be staying in Denver for the long term (mistake)

Bowlen backed McDaniels on that (mistake)

When you consider that you can tell the result of every Broncos game last season based on Jay Cutler's stat line, and the team invested a high first round pick in him, I think it's safe to say he was a franchise QB for them. I don't think the Colts, Saints, Chargers, Packers, or even Steelers would try to trade their franchise QB for Matt Cassel, and in the HIGHLY unlikely event that they did, they certainly wouldn't let that news leak, but on the even less likely chance that those two events happened, if those players came to the organization and asked for a guarantee that they would stay on their respective teams, the head coach certainly wouldn't refuse that, and if he did, the owner would not back that decision. The bottom line is there were a ton of idiotic mistakes and botched moves on the part of McDaniels/Bowlen before Cutler requested a trade. Cutler could have been a tad more mature about it, but the fact of the matter is he's a QB who would start on at least 25 of the 32 teams in the NFL, why would he want to stay somewhere where they've basically just told him "you have no job security"? As for the basic "NFC Championship or bust" line you've drawn here, firstly, Orton hasn't taken the Bears to the playoffs since his rookie year, the last QB to do that was Rex Grossman, and he looked like an MVP candidate through the first half of that season, secondly, why would his worth be measured on what his team as a whole accomplishes? If Cutler guides them to the NFC North title, then throws for 400 yards and 3 TDs in a first round loss, are you going to say "ZOMG BUST!"? What a team does is on the team as a whole, an individual can only do so much to contribute to that team's success. I expect a big season from Cutler (I'll predict ~4,000 yards ~7.7 YPA ~30 TDs ~12 INTs), but what you're saying is even if he has a big season and the Bears can't advance, he fails, which is such a terrible point of view.

Timbathia
06-05-2009, 04:43 PM
Are you serious with this? Where to start:

McDaniels tried to trade a better QB for his guy (mistake)

McDaniels let this go public (mistake)

McDaniels, trying to pull a power play, refused to tell his franchise QB that he'd be staying in Denver for the long term (mistake)

Bowlen backed McDaniels on that (mistake)

When you consider that you can tell the result of every Broncos game last season based on Jay Cutler's stat line, and the team invested a high first round pick in him, I think it's safe to say he was a franchise QB for them. I don't think the Colts, Saints, Chargers, Packers, or even Steelers would try to trade their franchise QB for Matt Cassel, and in the HIGHLY unlikely event that they did, they certainly wouldn't let that news leak, but on the even less likely chance that those two events happened, if those players came to the organization and asked for a guarantee that they would stay on their respective teams, the head coach certainly wouldn't refuse that, and if he did, the owner would not back that decision. The bottom line is there were a ton of idiotic mistakes and botched moves on the part of McDaniels/Bowlen before Cutler requested a trade. Cutler could have been a tad more mature about it, but the fact of the matter is he's a QB who would start on at least 25 of the 32 teams in the NFL, why would he want to stay somewhere where they've basically just told him "you have no job security"? As for the basic "NFC Championship or bust" line you've drawn here, firstly, Orton hasn't taken the Bears to the playoffs since his rookie year, the last QB to do that was Rex Grossman, and he looked like an MVP candidate through the first half of that season, secondly, why would his worth be measured on what his team as a whole accomplishes? If Cutler guides them to the NFC North title, then throws for 400 yards and 3 TDs in a first round loss, are you going to say "ZOMG BUST!"? What a team does is on the team as a whole, an individual can only do so much to contribute to that team's success. I expect a big season from Cutler (I'll predict ~4,000 yards ~7.7 YPA ~30 TDs ~12 INTs), but what you're saying is even if he has a big season and the Bears can't advance, he fails, which is such a terrible point of view.

Thanks for you opinion on all that. Not worth anything, but thanks anyway.

You dont know that Cutler would be better in this new offense that Cassel, so that can not be called a mistake.

You dont know who leaked the news about the attempted trade - big call to say McDaniels can control who people talk too.

So a coach should pander to a cry-baby player and tell him he is untradeable and the sun shines out his a$$? Sorry, dont agree with you there.

Bowlen backs his coach over 1 player that wanted out as soon as Bates lost his job. Hardly a mistake IMO.

In Denver's 8 losses last year they scored,19, 16, 17, 7, 17, 10, 10, 23, 21. Denver's defense sucked last year, but in most of their losses so did the offense. Chicago has a defense, so if Cutler goes 400 yards and 3 tds they wont lose. IMO if Chicago loses a game, it will be because the offense didnt deliver.

The RBs averaged 4.8 yards per carry all season, and the team gave up 12 sacks total. Marshall, Royal and company were exceptional all season, and gained a hep of yards after the catch. Cutler had a ton of help getting him to the pro-bowl, but thinks it was all him. He has a losing record in this league after 3 seasons. I absolutely call him over-rated if he cant take the Bears well into the playoffs.

LizardState
06-05-2009, 05:30 PM
Eh, view it how you wish, but i disagree. Cutler didn't want to play for the Broncos, did the talking through his agent and got what he requested. He didn't 'whine', he said he wanted to be traded from a D-bag coach. The coach was young, unproven, and cocky, to go along with a liar....way to introduce yourself. Favre went after media attention and did his talking through them. The Broncos and McDaniels did the talking in that show.

Demanding a trade doesn't put him in the same books as Favre. Saying you were tired of hearing about him is fine, but look at the two situations and why you were hearing about it. One - player constantly talking and looking for attention. Two - media and franchise constantly talking about it, not the player.

Not going to the NFC title game will not put the 'bust' label on him....sorry.

Hear hear! Cutler was the victim in Denver, not the transgressor. msolimani is dead wrong here.

The media consensus is that McDaniel has already heated up his seat in Denver before coaching his 1st game. For once they're right.

I don't think Cutler "demanded" anything at all much less a trade until McDaniel &/or Bowlen started the shenanigans, Cutler is not a freaking moron who wants to do a kamikaze trash to his career this early. If you read the tone (not the content so much) of Bowlen's letter in the press lambasting Cutler it reeks of meanness & scapegoating IMO.

Since I started this thread I'll redirect it toward its topic: It's McDaniel who needs to put up or shut up this yr. He's already cut loose their best player, failed to address their great screaming 6000-pound gorilla in the living room need in the last draft -- a defense that really needs to stop somebody & especially the run, & given himself a rep in Colorado as a HC who's in way over his head. His team couldn't even beat the Raiders & just plain quit in late season games. He has a criminally inclined headcase WR in Marshall who will be suspended for several games next yr. pending appeal, so they may score even less points than in 08. Good luck, coach McDaniel,you are gonna need it.

Gay Ork Wang
06-05-2009, 05:38 PM
Thanks for you opinion on all that. Not worth anything, but thanks anyway.

You dont know that Cutler would be better in this new offense that Cassel, so that can not be called a mistake.

You dont know who leaked the news about the attempted trade - big call to say McDaniels can control who people talk too.

So a coach should pander to a cry-baby player and tell him he is untradeable and the sun shines out his a$$? Sorry, dont agree with you there.

Bowlen backs his coach over 1 player that wanted out as soon as Bates lost his job. Hardly a mistake IMO.

In Denver's 8 losses last year they scored,19, 16, 17, 7, 17, 10, 10, 23, 21. Denver's defense sucked last year, but in most of their losses so did the offense. Chicago has a defense, so if Cutler goes 400 yards and 3 tds they wont lose. IMO if Chicago loses a game, it will be because the offense didnt deliver.

The RBs averaged 4.8 yards per carry all season, and the team gave up 12 sacks total. Marshall, Royal and company were exceptional all season, and gained a hep of yards after the catch. Cutler had a ton of help getting him to the pro-bowl, but thinks it was all him. He has a losing record in this league after 3 seasons. I absolutely call him over-rated if he cant take the Bears well into the playoffs.
are u a denver fan?

cause u absolutely sound like a sore denver fan that is trying to talk himself into Cutler sucks

Shahin
06-05-2009, 05:47 PM
Thanks for you opinion on all that. Not worth anything, but thanks anyway.


well that wasn't necessary.

CC.SD
06-05-2009, 05:51 PM
Well, now you know.

And knowing is half the battle!

sheesh get on the ball SWDC.

Mr.Regular
06-05-2009, 05:57 PM
Charles Woodson - He still isnt putting up the numbers he did at michigan.
Joke? Please let it be a joke.....

Dam8610
06-05-2009, 08:38 PM
Thanks for you opinion on all that. Not worth anything, but thanks anyway.

The opinion there is that the Broncos made mistakes, we'll see how it plays out, but I doubt McDaniels lasts any more than 3 years in Denver, especially considering how much he's already set himself up for failure over the next 2 seasons.

You dont know that Cutler would be better in this new offense that Cassel, so that can not be called a mistake.

Of course it can be called a mistake. Cutler is a better and more talented QB than Matt Cassel, no one would dispute that. Therefore, it stands to reason that Cutler would be able to excel in any type of offense moreso than Cassel. Add to that that Cutler had already played with all the players on the team, and had already developed a chemistry with them, and it becomes pretty obvious that it was a dumb move to even try to dump Cutler for Cassel, let alone failing in that venture and letting it leak to the media.

You dont know who leaked the news about the attempted trade - big call to say McDaniels can control who people talk too.

So you're saying McDaniels has the power to shop players on the team, but doesn't have the power to control who does and does not know about it in his organization? If the leak came from another organization, all he has to do to keep the peace is deny it as rumor and speculation, and him not doing that makes him an arrogant idiot on a power trip. He's not Bill Belichick, and all the Belichick assistants need to stop trying to be him until they can prove themselves at the level Belichick has.

So a coach should pander to a cry-baby player and tell him he is untradeable and the sun shines out his a$$? Sorry, dont agree with you there.

Why would any team trade a franchise QB? Name 10 teams Jay Cutler wouldn't start on. I'll even spot you 5: Colts, Patriots, Saints, Steelers, Bengals. I doubt you can name another 5. The only reason Cutler asked for a trade is because McDaniels told him he wasn't secure in Denver. I don't view a franchise QB wanting job security as that player being a "cry-baby", but rather wanting his team to commit to keeping him. Do you think Peyton Manning, Tom Brady, Carson Palmer, or Ben Roethlisberger have ever even questioned what team they'd be playing for over the last few seasons? Do you think they'd respond well if they heard their name in trade rumors? I don't. I think they'd be pretty upset and do the same thing Jay did. Then again, I doubt their teams would be stupid enough to shop them in the first place. I can tell you don't like Jay Cutler's attitude, but he was forced into the position he took on this issue. Like it or not, franchise QBs get special treatment in this sport, and rightfully so, considering how much they can do for a team, which makes McDaniels's refusal to play peacemaker even more bewildering.

Bowlen backs his coach over 1 player that wanted out as soon as Bates lost his job. Hardly a mistake IMO. How did backing Allen Iverson over the coach go every year in Philly - they win many rings?

I forgot about all those rings the 76ers won after they ditched Iverson. Wait, they've been mired in mediocrity and failure ever since, haven't they? Bowlen backed his coach over his franchise QB who showed no desire to leave Denver until his coach told his franchise QB that there was no guarantee he'd stay in Denver. At that point, his franchise QB showed an immense desire to leave Denver. You're right though, good call in backing up the arrogant idiot on a power trip.

In Denver's 8 losses last year they scored,19, 16, 17, 7, 17, 10, 10, 23, 21.

Like I said, looking at Cutler's stat sheet, you can tell what games the Broncos won and what games they lost. Yes, he did poorly at times last year, but so does any QB when they have a terrible defense and a subpar running game. Look at Peyton Manning in 2001 or Carson Palmer in 2007.

Denver's defense sucked last year, but in most of their losses so did the offense.

When a defense puts a QB in a hole, he has to force throws that he normally wouldn't. This leads to more INTs, less TDs, and overall less offensive production in most cases.

Chicago has a defense, so if Cutler goes 400 yards and 3 tds they wont lose. IMO if Chicago loses a game, it will be because the offense didnt deliver.

In 2007, the Colts had the top ranked scoring defense, and Peyton Manning threw for 400 yards and 3 TDs in the playoffs. The Colts lost.

The RBs averaged 4.8 yards per carry all season, and the team gave up 12 sacks total. Marshall, Royal and company were exceptional all season, and gained a hep of yards after the catch. Cutler had a ton of help getting him to the pro-bowl, but thinks it was all him. He has a losing record in this league after 3 seasons. I absolutely call him over-rated if he cant take the Bears well into the playoffs.

So the 12 sacks thing, none of that was because of Jay Cutler? Cutler's ball placement didn't help the receivers excel? Those things are two way streets. He has a losing record because his defense has been terrible, in games where the Broncos defense has allowed <21 points, Cutler is 16-1. As you stated before, he actually has a good defense with the Bears, so I suspect that losing record thing (a whole 3 games under .500 no less) will turn around rather quickly.

holt_bruce81
06-06-2009, 12:49 AM
For the Rams it's got to be Tye Hill.

yourfavestoner
06-06-2009, 03:38 AM
Reggie F'n Nelson.

Gay Ork Wang
06-06-2009, 04:43 AM
The Bears defense is not that good guys :/

BmoreBlackByrdz
06-06-2009, 07:49 AM
The opinion there is that the Broncos made mistakes, we'll see how it plays out, but I doubt McDaniels lasts any more than 3 years in Denver, especially considering how much he's already set himself up for failure over the next 2 seasons.



Of course it can be called a mistake. Cutler is a better and more talented QB than Matt Cassel, no one would dispute that. Therefore, it stands to reason that Cutler would be able to excel in any type of offense moreso than Cassel. Add to that that Cutler had already played with all the players on the team, and had already developed a chemistry with them, and it becomes pretty obvious that it was a dumb move to even try to dump Cutler for Cassel, let alone failing in that venture and letting it leak to the media.



So you're saying McDaniels has the power to shop players on the team, but doesn't have the power to control who does and does not know about it in his organization? If the leak came from another organization, all he has to do to keep the peace is deny it as rumor and speculation, and him not doing that makes him an arrogant idiot on a power trip. He's not Bill Belichick, and all the Belichick assistants need to stop trying to be him until they can prove themselves at the level Belichick has.



Why would any team trade a franchise QB? Name 10 teams Jay Cutler wouldn't start on. I'll even spot you 5: Colts, Patriots, Saints, Steelers, Bengals. I doubt you can name another 5. The only reason Cutler asked for a trade is because McDaniels told him he wasn't secure in Denver. I don't view a franchise QB wanting job security as that player being a "cry-baby", but rather wanting his team to commit to keeping him. Do you think Peyton Manning, Tom Brady, Carson Palmer, or Ben Roethlisberger have ever even questioned what team they'd be playing for over the last few seasons? Do you think they'd respond well if they heard their name in trade rumors? I don't. I think they'd be pretty upset and do the same thing Jay did. Then again, I doubt their teams would be stupid enough to shop them in the first place. I can tell you don't like Jay Cutler's attitude, but he was forced into the position he took on this issue. Like it or not, franchise QBs get special treatment in this sport, and rightfully so, considering how much they can do for a team, which makes McDaniels's refusal to play peacemaker even more bewildering.



I forgot about all those rings the 76ers won after they ditched Iverson. Wait, they've been mired in mediocrity and failure ever since, haven't they? Bowlen backed his coach over his franchise QB who showed no desire to leave Denver until his coach told his franchise QB that there was no guarantee he'd stay in Denver. At that point, his franchise QB showed an immense desire to leave Denver. You're right though, good call in backing up the arrogant idiot on a power trip.



Like I said, looking at Cutler's stat sheet, you can tell what games the Broncos won and what games they lost. Yes, he did poorly at times last year, but so does any QB when they have a terrible defense and a subpar running game. Look at Peyton Manning in 2001 or Carson Palmer in 2007.



When a defense puts a QB in a hole, he has to force throws that he normally wouldn't. This leads to more INTs, less TDs, and overall less offensive production in most cases.



In 2007, the Colts had the top ranked scoring defense, and Peyton Manning threw for 400 yards and 3 TDs in the playoffs. The Colts lost.



So the 12 sacks thing, none of that was because of Jay Cutler? Cutler's ball placement didn't help the receivers excel? Those things are two way streets. He has a losing record because his defense has been terrible, in games where the Broncos defense has allowed <21 points, Cutler is 16-1. As you stated before, he actually has a good defense with the Bears, so I suspect that losing record thing (a whole 3 games under .500 no less) will turn around rather quickly.

+rep to you man. I can't stand these Bronco fans saying Cutler was never a good QB to begin with and that McDaniels is the messiah of the coaching world. Broncos ****** up they don't seem to realize it, I guess it'll sink in when they go 5-11. :)

Ravens1991
06-06-2009, 09:14 AM
For the Ravens I think Demetrius Williams is a put up or shut up player.

BmoreBlackByrdz
06-06-2009, 09:50 AM
For the Ravens I think Demetrius Williams is a put up or shut up player.

yeah no doubt about it. We didn't pursue a WR this offseason in hopes that he can stay healthy and be our deep threat. Also Marcus Smith better improve as well.

Ravens1991
06-06-2009, 09:51 AM
all reports are that Smith is improving, but I will give Smith more time.

Dam8610
06-06-2009, 12:13 PM
The Bears defense is not that good guys :/

The Bears defense is a whole lot better than the Broncos defense was last year.

Gay Ork Wang
06-06-2009, 12:15 PM
yea, but he makes it seem like they are a top5 defense or something like that. there will be bunches of games lost because of the defense not because of cutler even if he has a good game

superman8456
06-06-2009, 12:19 PM
The Bears defense is a whole lot better than the Broncos defense was last year.

But Bears WR corp is NOWHERE near the Broncos.

Dam8610
06-06-2009, 12:29 PM
yea, but he makes it seem like they are a top5 defense or something like that. there will be bunches of games lost because of the defense not because of cutler even if he has a good game

I don't think the Bears defense is that bad. They're league average at worst I'd say.

But Bears WR corp is NOWHERE near the Broncos.

We'll see how that plays out with Cutler throwing to Bennett, Hester, Olsen and Forte, and Orton throwing to Marshall, Royal, Scheffler, and Moreno.

jsa230
06-06-2009, 12:50 PM
Joke? Please let it be a joke.....

i apologize for the rather dissapointing attempt at humor

BmoreBlackByrdz
06-06-2009, 01:20 PM
all reports are that Smith is improving, but I will give Smith more time.

True, he's a huge project but it'd be nice to see him make atleast 1 catch :D

the decider13
06-06-2009, 01:37 PM
Think I'm gonna have to stop posting on the NFL boards because of the endless Bronco hate and the endless Cutler man love.

superman8456
06-06-2009, 01:42 PM
Think I'm gonna have to stop posting on the NFL boards because of the endless Bronco hate and the endless Cutler man love.

Cutler is a good QB. You cant deny it. Definitely a top 10 QB.

the decider13
06-06-2009, 01:48 PM
I never deny that he is a good QB, I own a Cutler jersey, but anytime a Bronco fan tries to move on and accept what they have someone has to run in shouting that the Broncos effed up. You know what? It doesn't matter. It happened. I don't like the way anyone handled themselves, but I put team before any player. Orton is the teams QB, McDaniels is the teams coach.

If people could just start talking about Cutler's future instead of constantly talking about the trade, maybe it wouldn't be so annoying.

And @ Dam

I respect your opinion, but could you do it without constantly bashing the team? If you like Cutler, talk about how amazing Cutler is, but there is no reason to saying how much you think the Broncos suck.

Menardo75
06-06-2009, 04:05 PM
The Bears defense is a whole lot better than the Broncos defense was last year.

This is very true. Either way though the Bears' defense had a down year.

The Great Jonathan Vilma
06-06-2009, 04:47 PM
Think I'm gonna have to stop posting on the NFL boards because of the endless Bronco hate and the endless Cutler man love.

'If you can't stand the heat, get out of the fire' or 'Cry me a river'

Either works

The Dynasty
06-06-2009, 05:09 PM
Tarvaris Jackson - He has had enough time to become a reliable starting QB and hasn't rose to the challenge yet so its this year whether he makes it or doesnt.

Ray Edwards - He said he was going to break the sack record last year which was a complete joke. He ended up with like 4-5 sacks the whole year. He needs to put up decent numbers or we need to get a LE to replace him.

CC.SD
06-06-2009, 05:28 PM
I never deny that he is a good QB, I own a Cutler jersey, but anytime a Bronco fan tries to move on and accept what they have someone has to run in shouting that the Broncos effed up. You know what? It doesn't matter. It happened. I don't like the way anyone handled themselves, but I put team before any player. Orton is the teams QB, McDaniels is the teams coach.

If people could just start talking about Cutler's future instead of constantly talking about the trade, maybe it wouldn't be so annoying.

And @ Dam

I respect your opinion, but could you do it without constantly bashing the team? If you like Cutler, talk about how amazing Cutler is, but there is no reason to saying how much you think the Broncos suck.

I think you just have to give all this stuff some time. When was the last time a franchise gave up on a cornerstone QB like Cutler because of a temper tantrum/miscommunication? This move still has the potential to go down as one of the most devastating decisions in NFL history, so you have to expect it to still get some flak during the offseason it actually occurred in. Thems the unfortunate breaks.

Timbathia
06-06-2009, 05:36 PM
My last go at this......

- McDaniels is introducing a complicated offensive scheme. He had doubts over Cutlers mental capacity to excel in it, not his physical capacity. McDaniels knew for a FACT that Cassel has both the mental and physical capacity to run it, especially combined with the high quality o-line and WRs that Denver already had. I agree that Cutler is the better QB in basically every other offense in the league, but if you cant see that there is undeniable logic in McDaniels thinking then you are just being closed-minded IMO.

I have never said Cutler is a bad QB. I now dislike him as a person for turning his back on is teammates and fans for the main reason that his new HC doesnt think he is as good as he thinks he is. Cutler could easily have taken a "I will show you attitude to McDaniels and Bowlen" and stick with his team mates, but he decided to run instead. I am a Broncos fan, so I will support any player in a Broncos jersey, no matter what I think of the GM, coaches, etc. If a player decides his feelings are more important than his team mates, then good luck to him.

The reason I said Cutler's rep is on the line in Chicago is because he is a pro-bowl QB going to a team that made playoffs last year. He is the best player on their offense now, and if he is as good as he thinks he was in Denver (and he has made claims about how good he is), the IMO he should deliver them some wins where there ordinarily wouldnt have been wins, and on that team it should mean making a big splash in the playoffs.

- McDaniels inherited a team with major problems, and is trying to rebuild with the kind of players he thinks fits the schemes he wants to run. I find it bordering on ridiculous that so many people in here have written him off as the biggest idiot in football when the Broncos are 0-0 under his command. Sure you can think he is making mistakes, but the utter conviction that most of you all have about how poor a job he is doing is completely unfounded IMO (as well as the rest of the Bronco fans in here, who incidentally should have a better idea about the teams directions than most).

i just hope that if in 2 or 3 years the Broncos are winning the division and McDaniels is still HC then you will all man up and admit how wrong you all were (just as I will if he loses his job and the Broncos become Detroit).

Mr. Hero
06-06-2009, 05:49 PM
Cutlerz is already the best QB in bears history, that alone gives him a couple years for the team to actually develop an offense and to make some noise. You can't expect too much in his first season with a new team, throwing to new team-mates in a new system and environment. Cutler and da bears will make noise in time.

Mr. Hero
06-06-2009, 05:52 PM
BTW ******* up the relationship with your young franchise QB makes criticism of McDaniels legit. That's some mighty epic fail unless orton becomes tom brady and jay's arm gets torn off.

Gay Ork Wang
06-06-2009, 05:58 PM
Cutlerz is already the best QB in bears history, that alone gives him a couple years for the team to actually develop an offense and to make some noise. You can't expect too much in his first season with a new team, throwing to new team-mates in a new system and environment. Cutler and da bears will make noise in time.
Sid Luckman is prolly better but yea thats like 80 years ago

Timbathia
06-06-2009, 06:35 PM
Cutlerz is already the best QB in bears history, that alone gives him a couple years for the team to actually develop an offense and to make some noise. You can't expect too much in his first season with a new team, throwing to new team-mates in a new system and environment. Cutler and da bears will make noise in time.

Okay fair enough. By that logic then McDaniels can have a poor to mediocre year this season without coping any criticism. New system, new players, etc.

Bucs_Rule
06-06-2009, 06:39 PM
Its not how talented or how well you played for a previous team its how well you play for your new team that will show if your the greatest QB in team history.

He was a Pro-Bowl QB for the Broncos, not the Bears. He likely will play as well, but don't crown someone until they play a down.

With how talented Cutler is and how much the team gave up for him he will have a huge window to get the offense going.

Dam8610
06-06-2009, 07:04 PM
And @ Dam

I respect your opinion, but could you do it without constantly bashing the team? If you like Cutler, talk about how amazing Cutler is, but there is no reason to saying how much you think the Broncos suck.

I have nothing against the Broncos, I don't think I ever really bashed the team, the only negative things I said were I think the owner and head coach made a lot of mistakes in the handling of this situation, and that they had a bad defense last year. Football Outsiders called it the second worst defense they've ever tracked (that goes back to 1995, and the worst was the 2008 Lions), and if the Colts had the same situation happen with Peyton Manning, I'd be bashing Caldwell, Polian, and Irsay just as much, reason being you don't trade a franchise QB, nor do you upset one to the point that he requests a trade. Doing so is just dumb, and I'm sorry if that's not what you want to hear about your FO, but that's how I feel about the situation.

My last go at this......

- McDaniels is introducing a complicated offensive scheme. He had doubts over Cutlers mental capacity to excel in it, not his physical capacity. McDaniels knew for a FACT that Cassel has both the mental and physical capacity to run it, especially combined with the high quality o-line and WRs that Denver already had. I agree that Cutler is the better QB in basically every other offense in the league, but if you cant see that there is undeniable logic in McDaniels thinking then you are just being closed-minded IMO.

So you're saying Cutler is better in any other offense in the NFL but McDaniels's? Do you not realize how dumb that sounds? There isn't "undenialable logic" in the thought process that leads to the idea of trading Cutler for Cassel (which McDaniels didn't even accomplish), in fact, I'd call it undeniable idiocy. Trading a QB with more talent and more chemistry with your receivers for a QB who proved to be average in your system? BRILLIANT! :rolleyes:

I have never said Cutler is a bad QB.

You just implied he's too stupid to pick up an offensive system and perform better than a league average QB.

I now dislike him as a person for turning his back on is teammates and fans for the main reason that his new HC doesnt think he is as good as he thinks he is.

Well thank you for openly declaring your personal bias, but if you really think that's his reasoning, you're wrong. He wanted assurance that he'd be in Denver, and McDaniels chose to try to exert his power rather than trying to keep the peace with his franchise QB. This resulted in his franchise QB exerting what power he had in requesting a trade. You can call Cutler immature for doing that if you'd like, but you'd first have to admit that McDaniels was more immature in not simply reassuring the star player of his team that he'd be there, which he probably would have been anyway had he not requested a trade.

Cutler could easily have taken a "I will show you attitude to McDaniels and Bowlen" and stick with his team mates, but he decided to run instead. I am a Broncos fan, so I will support any player in a Broncos jersey, no matter what I think of the GM, coaches, etc. If a player decides his feelings are more important than his team mates, then good luck to him.

Okay, you're a Broncos homer, so no matter what I say to you, McDaniels and Bowlen will be saints in your eyes, and Cutler the villain. Stop and think about it though. Cutler never expressed any desire to leave Denver, then these trade rumors started, so he asked to be reassured that he had job security and he got no such assurance. If you had an inkling that you were going to lose your job, wouldn't you try to find a new one? Because that's exactly what Cutler did.

The reason I said Cutler's rep is on the line in Chicago is because he is a pro-bowl QB going to a team that made playoffs last year.

Except the Bears didn't make the playoffs last year.

He is the best player on their offense now, and if he is as good as he thinks he was in Denver (and he has made claims about how good he is), the IMO he should deliver them some wins where there ordinarily wouldnt have been wins, and on that team it should mean making a big splash in the playoffs.

So what you're saying is your claims are based on false information? Yes, Cutler is the best player on their offense, as is any franchise QB on their respective offense, and he'll probably make some plays for them, but to judge him on how far they go in the playoffs is a little unfair because there are so many factors that play into that, a lot of which Cutler can't control.

- McDaniels inherited a team with major problems, and is trying to rebuild with the kind of players he thinks fits the schemes he wants to run. I find it bordering on ridiculous that so many people in here have written him off as the biggest idiot in football when the Broncos are 0-0 under his command. Sure you can think he is making mistakes, but the utter conviction that most of you all have about how poor a job he is doing is completely unfounded IMO (as well as the rest of the Bronco fans in here, who incidentally should have a better idea about the teams directions than most).

I felt he made mistakes, I never called him the biggest idiot in football, but I do think he has set himself up for failure in his first two seasons by trading his best player away (who also happens to be 26) and his team's first round draft pick. You just said he's in a rebuilding situation, why would he trade those two commodities in the same offseason?

i just hope that if in 2 or 3 years the Broncos are winning the division and McDaniels is still HC then you will all man up and admit how wrong you all were (just as I will if he loses his job and the Broncos become Detroit).

Wrong about what? About McDaniels making mistakes in the handling of that situation? I'll still believe that, especially if the Bears go on to have a lot of success with Cutler at the helm. If the Broncos are a title contender or close in 2-3 years, I'll admit McDaniels is a good coach, and I think I need to save this post just to make sure the bargain is held up on your end.

the decider13
06-06-2009, 07:30 PM
McD definately effed things up...there is no denying that. Maybe I am the minority of Bronco fans still somewhat grounded in reality. As much as I like Ayers and Moreno, can't say I'm happier than if I could still wear my Cutler jersey on Sundays.

Well I guess I can still wear it...people will just look at me funny.

But other than the Cutler situation, the team has improved in every other aspect. I still expect the team to be fun to watch. I got up and watched their games at 2am while I was living in Germany, I'll sure as heck still watch every game this year. I don't think they will be as bad as everyone seems to think, but they are definately a year or two from any kind of appearance in the playoffs.

On topic:

I'm going to put Tony Scheffler on the put up or shut up list. He is a very talented tight end, but he is always injured. McDaniels obviously hasn't put a lot of faith in to Scheff since he traded up to get Quinn. I could definately see Scheffler out the door if he doesn't produce like he is capable of.

CC.SD
06-06-2009, 07:42 PM
My last go at this......

- McDaniels is introducing a complicated offensive scheme. He had doubts over Cutlers mental capacity to excel in it, not his physical capacity. McDaniels knew for a FACT that Cassel has both the mental and physical capacity to run it, especially combined with the high quality o-line and WRs that Denver already had. I agree that Cutler is the better QB in basically every other offense in the league, but if you cant see that there is undeniable logic in McDaniels thinking then you are just being closed-minded IMO.

I have never said Cutler is a bad QB. I now dislike him as a person for turning his back on is teammates and fans for the main reason that his new HC doesnt think he is as good as he thinks he is. Cutler could easily have taken a "I will show you attitude to McDaniels and Bowlen" and stick with his team mates, but he decided to run instead. I am a Broncos fan, so I will support any player in a Broncos jersey, no matter what I think of the GM, coaches, etc. If a player decides his feelings are more important than his team mates, then good luck to him.

The reason I said Cutler's rep is on the line in Chicago is because he is a pro-bowl QB going to a team that made playoffs last year. He is the best player on their offense now, and if he is as good as he thinks he was in Denver (and he has made claims about how good he is), the IMO he should deliver them some wins where there ordinarily wouldnt have been wins, and on that team it should mean making a big splash in the playoffs.

- McDaniels inherited a team with major problems, and is trying to rebuild with the kind of players he thinks fits the schemes he wants to run. I find it bordering on ridiculous that so many people in here have written him off as the biggest idiot in football when the Broncos are 0-0 under his command. Sure you can think he is making mistakes, but the utter conviction that most of you all have about how poor a job he is doing is completely unfounded IMO (as well as the rest of the Bronco fans in here, who incidentally should have a better idea about the teams directions than most).

i just hope that if in 2 or 3 years the Broncos are winning the division and McDaniels is still HC then you will all man up and admit how wrong you all were (just as I will if he loses his job and the Broncos become Detroit).

You're missing out on the key ingredient of every "God, McDaniels is a complete moron" argument...he didn't "inherit" a team. He signed with the Broncos. There were a number of job openings and the guy left his post in NE to coach the Broncos. And you are trying to sell yourself on the fact that McDaniels knew Cutler wouldn't be able to run his system? Nuh uh. He didn't sign with Denver for their amazing defense, I'll tell you that much.

If McDaniels didn't think Cutler could run his offense...change the offense. Flirting with a Cassell trade showed right off the bat that this guy is clueless, Cutler was literally the only reason the Denver HC job would have been appealing to one of the hottest candidates out there. As is, this guy is about to try and make Kyle Orton into Tom Brady and the prognosis isn't great.

Bucs_Rule
06-07-2009, 01:34 PM
Ken Whisenhunt came from running a heavy running game in Pittsburgh. In Arizona the personnel was the opposite and he implemented a pass focused offense. A good coach implements whatever strategy gives the team the best chance at winning, even if thats not his prefered one.

katnip
06-07-2009, 05:37 PM
Sidney Rice. He has been decent in the red zone but injuries have plagued him since he has gotten into the NFL and he needs a good season this year.

Yes.. One of my favorite college WR's drafted in recent times. I remember him jumping so high at South Carolina.

Timbathia
06-07-2009, 10:14 PM
Cant be bothered arguing anymore Dam, but safe to say I disagree with most of your last post. You keep making assumptions about what I think on things instead of sticking to what I have said and it is annoying to have keep refuting it.

You (and others) keep using dumb, moron, idiotic, etc. terms as if they were a fact about someone who knows a cr@pload more about football than you do. I am simply giving the guy the benefit of the doubt, saying there is some merit to his approach.

And as to saying that as a coach you should say anything you have to to keep your star players happy, well, I am glad you are not coach of the Broncos. I prefer leaders who lead, not ones that try and keep everyone happy.

and cc.sd, the whole point of McDaniels coming to the Broncos was to install the offense that the Pats ran, not to use the same offense that resulted in the Broncos being 16th in scoring despite top 5 in almost every other offensive category. Cutler obviously wasnt the reason he took the job, as the same sources reporting the cassell trade info also said that McDaniels had concerns over Cutlers leadership ability and football smarts (and the Pats offense is much more complex and uses completely different terminology than the Broncos previous one).

I have no opinion over Cutlers ability to run the new offense (I have no idea how smart the guy is) - just simply pointing out the reasoning and saying that i think it ridiculous to hang a guy when you have no results to go off.

CC.SD
06-08-2009, 12:48 AM
and cc.sd, the whole point of McDaniels coming to the Broncos was to install the offense that the Pats ran, not to use the same offense that resulted in the Broncos being 16th in scoring despite top 5 in almost every other offensive category. Cutler obviously wasnt the reason he took the job, as the same sources reporting the cassell trade info also said that McDaniels had concerns over Cutlers leadership ability and football smarts (and the Pats offense is much more complex and uses completely different terminology than the Broncos previous one).



http://www.env.leeds.ac.uk/ebi/images/studentships/nile-map-300x419.jpg

Sorry I guess I could just not disagree more: an offensive coordinator becoming a head coach and picking the Broncos...the QB being the primary factor in that decision seems pretty obvious to me.

TACKLE
06-08-2009, 01:04 AM
Sid Luckman is prolly better but yea thats like 80 years ago

I think you're forgetting the great Doug Flutie. Hello Heisman.

http://i.cdn.turner.com/sivault/image/1987/01/04/001308651.jpg

Timbathia
06-08-2009, 01:07 AM
http://www.env.leeds.ac.uk/ebi/images/studentships/nile-map-300x419.jpg

Sorry I guess I could just not disagree more: an offensive coordinator becoming a head coach and picking the Broncos...the QB being the primary factor in that decision seems pretty obvious to me.

It isnt to me...........how about an offensive line that gave up 6 or 7 sacks between them (12 team total), the best blocking TE in the NFL (Dan Graham), a beast #1 WR in Marshall, and a pretty handy #2 in Eddie Royal. In running the Pats offense, these are all arguably more important to the success of the scheme than a QB like Cutler.

If he loved the Broncos offense so much he wouldnt have changed schemes, or sought a Cassell trade. Cant you see you argument falls down because he did investigate trading Cutler?

Brothgar
06-08-2009, 01:14 AM
You're missing out on the key ingredient of every "God, McDaniels is a complete moron" argument...he didn't "inherit" a team. He signed with the Broncos. There were a number of job openings and the guy left his post in NE to coach the Broncos. And you are trying to sell yourself on the fact that McDaniels knew Cutler wouldn't be able to run his system? Nuh uh. He didn't sign with Denver for their amazing defense, I'll tell you that much.

If McDaniels didn't think Cutler could run his offense...change the offense. Flirting with a Cassell trade showed right off the bat that this guy is clueless, Cutler was literally the only reason the Denver HC job would have been appealing to one of the hottest candidates out there. As is, this guy is about to try and make Kyle Orton into Tom Brady and the prognosis isn't great.

Well maybe just MAYBE McDaniels saw Cutler as the best bait to land Cassell. MAYBE he's just an ego maniac who went to the team who had the highest bid. One thing is for sure though. Denver has a high likelyhood of being last in the division. That's right Denver will be behind the laughingstock Raiders by the end of this season. The reason McDaniels is stupid IMO has NOTHING to do with Cutler. I also will not kill McDaniels for this because I have no idea who's stupid decision it was but trading a top 15 pick for Alphonso Smith is down right wrong headed. The Cutler trade has nothing to do with the fact that Denver will be a top 15 pick. If they plan on implementing a 3-4 D when the larges guy on your D is 305 lbs is asking to get run over.

CC.SD
06-08-2009, 10:14 AM
It isnt to me...........how about an offensive line that gave up 6 or 7 sacks between them (12 team total), the best blocking TE in the NFL (Dan Graham), a beast #1 WR in Marshall, and a pretty handy #2 in Eddie Royal. In running the Pats offense, these are all arguably more important to the success of the scheme than a QB like Cutler.

If he loved the Broncos offense so much he wouldnt have changed schemes, or sought a Cassell trade. Cant you see you argument falls down because he did investigate trading Cutler?

I'm talking about the reason he chose the Broncos job, not what he did once he was there, which IMO so far has been a series of horrible mistakes. All those things you listed are nowhere near as valuable as a franchise 26 year old QB with a laser rocket arm, especially when it comes to rebuilding a franchise. "The Pats scheme" aside, QBs are unquestionably the most valuable position on the team.

bigbluedefense
06-08-2009, 10:20 AM
I skimmed through this thread.


no. No. And NO.

McDaniels is just a dumbass.

Gay Ork Wang
06-08-2009, 11:08 AM
I skimmed through this thread.


no. No. And NO.

McDaniels is just a dumbass.
bbd has spoken

Addict
06-08-2009, 12:29 PM
I skimmed through this thread.


no. No. And NO.

McDaniels is just a dumbass.

you're wrong! Jay Cutler was a BUM, the bronco defense would have been a solid wall of steel-enforced concrete if it wasn't for that useless piece of manure they called their starting quarterback!!!

oh and Josh McDaniels is a genius. An ab-so-lute genius!

I truly hope you were being sarcastic, because if you were'nt you obviously don't know the first thing about American football. Oh, and don't take this seriously, I'm just trollin'

bigbluedefense
06-08-2009, 02:03 PM
you're wrong! Jay Cutler was a BUM, the bronco defense would have been a solid wall of steel-enforced concrete if it wasn't for that useless piece of manure they called their starting quarterback!!!

oh and Josh McDaniels is a genius. An ab-so-lute genius!

I truly hope you were being sarcastic, because if you were'nt you obviously don't know the first thing about American football. Oh, and don't take this seriously, I'm just trollin'

Im dead serious. McDaniels is a joke of a HC. He's an egomaniac, he's taking that holierthanthou "i can win with smart scrubs as long as they listen to me and acknowledge my genius" belichick school of thought bullcrap and he's going to run another franchise into the ground with it.

He'll be out of a job within 3 years. Im gonna say 2.

If I'm wrong, I'm wrong. But I think he's an absolute joke. Overrated as a coordinator as well. Another Bellichick disciple thats all hype and no substance.

Addict
06-08-2009, 02:05 PM
Im dead serious. McDaniels is a joke of a HC. He's an egomaniac, he's taking that holierthanthou "i can win with smart scrubs as long as they listen to me and acknowledge my genius" belichick school of thought bullcrap and he's going to run another franchise into the ground with it.

He'll be out of a job within 3 years. Im gonna say 2.

If I'm wrong, I'm wrong. But I think he's an absolute joke. Overrated as a coordinator as well. Another Bellichick disciple thats all hype and no substance.

I wasn't serious, and you are and were absolutely right.

bigbluedefense
06-08-2009, 02:08 PM
I wasn't serious, and you are and were absolutely right.

oh haha. i need coffee.

Gay Ork Wang
06-08-2009, 02:09 PM
oh haha. i need coffee.
ha u need to check the things he hid!

bigbluedefense
06-08-2009, 02:14 PM
ha u need to check the things he hid!

porque?????

Gay Ork Wang
06-08-2009, 02:16 PM
I truly hope you were being sarcastic, because if you were'nt you obviously don't know the first thing about American football. Oh, and don't take this seriously, I'm just trollin'

thats what he hid ;)

but yea, who did ever succeed from the BB Tree?

bigbluedefense
06-08-2009, 02:20 PM
thats what he hid ;)

but yea, who did ever succeed from the BB Tree?

that tricky guy him.


Nobody. The only person who came remotely close was Mangini. And he hates Billy boy.

Bellichick wins because he has players. Organizations need to realize this. Its not because of the douchebag persona. All his disciples try to replicate it to no avail, instead of being themselves and letting their coaching do the talking.

The Great Jonathan Vilma
06-08-2009, 02:42 PM
that tricky guy him.


Nobody. The only person who came remotely close was Mangini. And he hates Billy boy.

Bellichick wins because he has players. Organizations need to realize this. Its not because of the douchebag persona. All his disciples try to replicate it to no avail, instead of being themselves and letting their coaching do the talking.

They have done well with their drafting and draft strategies though, and i believe that BB has a big input on that if i'm not mistaken.

CC.SD
06-08-2009, 03:59 PM
The worst part about McDaniel's idiocy is that all he really had to do was spend a couple years drafting/building a competent defense, and he'd find himself with a Super Bowl contender. Everyone and their mother knew the offense was high octane, held down by one of the worst defenses the NFL had ever seen.

BufFan71
06-08-2009, 04:00 PM
i want to repost cuz there are players that i forgot to mention



Aaron Schobel:
Supposed top DE in the NFL.. bet 70% of his sacks are coverage sacks.. all he does is run upfield... hes getting paid ALOT... he is injury prone

Roscoe Parrish:
Constantly Complains that he does not get enough reps offensively. Struggles to get seperation, terrible route runner, simply cannot catch, too small.... runs East and West toooooo much

Dam8610
06-08-2009, 05:52 PM
Cant be bothered arguing anymore Dam

Why? You seem to be able to argue with cc.sd still. Did my post cut through the orange and blue haze too much for you?

but safe to say I disagree with most of your last post.

What specifically?

You keep making assumptions about what I think on things instead of sticking to what I have said and it is annoying to have keep refuting it.

What assumption did I make about what you think at any point in this discussion? The only thing that could even come close to being misconstrued as that is me calling you a Broncos homer, which there have been at least 3 other people to do the same on this thread, so while it is an opinion, it's a widely shared opinion. Just like the opinion that McDaniels completely botched this situation.

You (and others) keep using dumb, moron, idiotic, etc. terms as if they were a fact about someone who knows a cr@pload more about football than you do. I am simply giving the guy the benefit of the doubt, saying there is some merit to his approach.

What's funny about this is the only time I used any of those words to describe McDaniels in my last post was refuting your claim that I called him "the biggest idiot in football". You're giving McDaniels WAY more than the benefit of the doubt here, he's traded your team's best player, who was young enough to build around, and their first round pick, which even you admit should be a high pick (you've said things about the Broncos having a bad season on this thread), and you're still taking a wait-and-see approach. That's faith, not benefit of the doubt.

And as to saying that as a coach you should say anything you have to to keep your star players happy, well, I am glad you are not coach of the Broncos. I prefer leaders who lead, not ones that try and keep everyone happy.

Wow, this is on the level of the Pats fans that said Belichick shouldn't apologize after Spygate in terms of completely missing the point. It never should have gotten that far. Jay Cutler is a franchise QB, you don't try to trade him. But since he did that, Cutler came to him and asked if he had job security, to which McDaniels said no. Again, franchise QB, would start on about 25 teams in the NFL, if not more, why is he going to stick around if he's been flat out told he could be traded at any time? It's not about keeping your star players happy, it's about correcting mistakes. It's not like Cutler came in unprovoked and started demanding things, if he did you'd have a point. One important aspect of being a leader is knowing when you've made a mistake and doing your best to correct it. Instead of doing that, McDaniels took a hardline stance and lost his best player as a result.

CC.SD
06-08-2009, 06:03 PM
Why? You seem to be able to argue with cc.sd still.


I have to say Dam, you are coming off as really unreasonable and jealous here.

Dam8610
06-08-2009, 06:31 PM
I have to say Dam, you are coming off as really unreasonable and jealous here.

I was arguing first, damnit!

Addict
06-08-2009, 07:05 PM
I was arguing first, damnit!

there's plenty Timbathia for both of you, now stop acting like preteen girls before I get an erection.

CC.SD
06-08-2009, 07:22 PM
there's plenty Timbathia for both of you, now stop acting like preteen girls before I get an erection.

The erection is just the start of the party!

NotRickJames
06-10-2009, 03:28 AM
Jason Campbell of the Redskins. He was selected in to be the Redskins cornerstone of the franchise, and yet he has developed at an alarmingly slow rate. In fact, I'd go as far as to say he regressed last year. Even with CP posing a huge threat at running back, Jason was never able to go beyond mediocrity. Moreover, he's bitched the Redskins FO out for considering drafting a quarterback. Put up or shut up, Jason. If he doesn't produce next year I'd like to see him kicked to the curb.

D-Rod
06-10-2009, 05:06 AM
Jason Campbell of the Redskins. He was selected in to be the Redskins cornerstone of the franchise, and yet he has developed at an alarmingly slow rate. In fact, I'd go as far as to say he regressed last year. Even with CP posing a huge threat at running back, Jason was never able to go beyond mediocrity. Moreover, he's bitched the Redskins FO out for considering drafting a quarterback. Put up or shut up, Jason. If he doesn't produce next year I'd like to see him kicked to the curb.

I actually thought that Campbell has been remarkably composed in the face of Snyder's upgrade efforts... if only he could be as composed on the field. I agree that this is definitely his year of proof.