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FlyingElvis
06-19-2009, 09:43 AM
Bronco's fans are the biggest fair weather fans in the WORLD. They are all gung-ho about a player as long as they're playing for them, but the second they want out or leave Broncos fans call out every single one of their flaws.

A little piece of unsolicited advice: calling out an entire group generally makes you look bad b/c it is extremely rare that everyone w/in said group actually fits the description.

The Great Jonathan Vilma
06-19-2009, 10:28 AM
Haha, i'm kind of with Superman on this one, the Denver fans turn on the player in a snap. Cutler this, Cutler that. Marshall this, Marshall that. As soon as the player wants out, he isn't half the player that he appears to be and Denver is still a place they should want to play. I'm only speaking from what i've seen on here, but it has come off pretty strong. Both players were elite talents, but when they say something, they are made to be half the players Denver somehow made them.

Marshall deserves his money, and i certainly don't blame him for trying to get it. I'm with BigBlue. If he feels this is the best financial move for him, or best move for him as a player, he should go out and get it. He's getting paid less than half than what someone like him is worth, and the odds are he will be gone when his contract expires anyway, so they should try to trade him.

The person who should be getting the hate is McDaniels. Maybe he ends up winning a championship level team, but his introduction to getting there is a rough one. It looks as though he's taking the approach of thinking he's already a champion and can do what he likes. Not sure how that will rub players.

Denver has some solid individual pieces, but they aren't overwheling in numbers, and their doesn't appear to be much chemistry remaining. Throw in a coach with an attitude, and a lackluster contract.....get me out of here before i lose my money. Marshall has an attitude, so this shouldn't come as a surprise that he is looking out for himself first...

LizardState
06-19-2009, 10:32 AM
How so? If they should have made the playoffs then they would have. That defense has been terrible for two straight seasons.

That defense has been terrible since Al Wilson left & Gary Kubiak took their best defensive assts. with him to Houston. The other 31 teams knew they couldn't stop the run so they ran all over Denver, that's why Cutler's numbers were so skewed with more INTs than TDs last yr, he was forced into playing catchup & took a lot of chances.

They brought in retread d-linemen like Kavika Pittman & I think Mike Myers to stop the run several yrs. ago, didn't work. Remember when they couldn't get past the Indy Colts in the AFC playoffs so they traded Clinton Portis to the Skins for Champ Bailey to pair with Bly & stop Peyton Manning from throwing for 300+ yds/gm? How did that work out for them? Then last yr. it was a major overhaul converting to the 3-4 with bad fit personnel (their 1st 2 draft choices were offensive players Clady & Eddie Royal), it looked like they were ignoring their porous defense.

And with that awful defense it didn't matter how good Cutler's high-octane offense was, the best Shanahan could do was 9-7 & 7-9 the last 2 yrs, too much mediocrity that's why he got canned after 14 yrs.

http://www.rockymountainnews.com/news/2008/sep/03/clout-drought-broncos-super-bowl-years-decade-behi/

bearfan
06-19-2009, 10:40 AM
A little piece of unsolicited advice: calling out an entire group generally makes you look bad b/c it is extremely rare that everyone w/in said group actually fits the description.

To an extent it is true. While you will have the fans who are not only fans of their team but fans of the NFL and have a knowledge and understanding of the game, you also have ones (like some broncos fans) who jump ship at the snap of a finger. As a Bear fan browsing message boards, I have seen quite a bit of Cutler bashing from Broncos fans. Not bashing his attitude, but saying how bad he is. All of the sudden their messiah has become the worst player in the league. Thats how it comes off with some broncos fans.

Luckily, NFLDC has a lot of smart NFL fans who CAN recognize that other players and teams are good other than their own.

the decider13
06-19-2009, 11:13 AM
Haha, i'm kind of with Superman on this one, the Denver fans turn on the player in a snap. Cutler this, Cutler that. Marshall this, Marshall that. As soon as the player wants out, he isn't half the player that he appears to be and Denver is still a place they should want to play. I'm only speaking from what i've seen on here, but it has come off pretty strong. Both players were elite talents, but when they say something, they are made to be half the players Denver somehow made them.

Marshall deserves his money, and i certainly don't blame him for trying to get it. I'm with BigBlue. If he feels this is the best financial move for him, or best move for him as a player, he should go out and get it. He's getting paid less than half than what someone like him is worth, and the odds are he will be gone when his contract expires anyway, so they should try to trade him.

The person who should be getting the hate is McDaniels. Maybe he ends up winning a championship level team, but his introduction to getting there is a rough one. It looks as though he's taking the approach of thinking he's already a champion and can do what he likes. Not sure how that will rub players.

Denver has some solid individual pieces, but they aren't overwheling in numbers, and their doesn't appear to be much chemistry remaining. Throw in a coach with an attitude, and a lackluster contract.....get me out of here before i lose my money. Marshall has an attitude, so this shouldn't come as a surprise that he is looking out for himself first...

True enough that Marshall's play over the past couple of years has earned him a raise. I think there are 50+ WRs in the NFL that make more money than Marshall, most of which he is better than.

I've never been a fan of player hold outs or trade demands, especially when a player acts so sure that he wants out. It's kind of a slap in the face to those that like them or buy their jersey(me).

I don't love what McDaniels has done to part of the team (driving players off) but I like some of his ideas. We weren't going anywhere with Shanny, so there was definately a need for a new coach. I wanted Spags the whole time, but the team chose McD, so that is who I have to live with. I'll take the team over any single player, a new receiver will show up who I'll like. If Marshall stays, fantastic, he is still one of my favorite players. If he leaves, I'll be a little upset, but I'll cheer for the next Broncos WR.

team>player

Diehard
06-19-2009, 11:14 AM
Well if someone is consistently getting open and is a good receiver, why wouldn't you keep throwing him the football?

Because there are other guys wide open? The fact is, Cutler did lock in on Marshall a fair amount last year, especially in pressure situations. Jay has the arm to force stuff like that, but if you are looking for offensive efficiency, it's not the right approach.

Diehard
06-19-2009, 11:16 AM
I don't love what McDaniels has done to part of the team (driving players off) but I like some of his ideas. We weren't going anywhere with Shanny, so there was definately a need for a new coach. I wanted Spags the whole time, but the team chose McD, so that is who I have to live with. I'll take the team over any single player, a new receiver will show up who I'll like. If Marshall stays, fantastic, he is still one of my favorite players. If he leaves, I'll be a little upset, but I'll cheer for the next Broncos WR.

team>player

Well said, brother.

FlyingElvis
06-19-2009, 11:24 AM
To an extent it is true. While you will have the fans who are not only fans of their team but fans of the NFL and have a knowledge and understanding of the game, you also have ones (like some broncos fans) who jump ship at the snap of a finger. As a Bear fan browsing message boards, I have seen quite a bit of Cutler bashing from Broncos fans. Not bashing his attitude, but saying how bad he is. All of the sudden their messiah has become the worst player in the league. Thats how it comes off with some broncos fans.

Luckily, NFLDC has a lot of smart NFL fans who CAN recognize that other players and teams are good other than their own.

I agree. However, saying "To an extent it is true" and "(like some broncos fans)" is quite a bit different than saying
Bronco's fans are the biggest fair weather fans in the WORLD. They are all gung-ho about a player as long as they're playing for them, but the second they want out or leave Broncos fans call out every single one of their flaws.
To further say it is based on comments specifically in this thread is silly.
Ummm, how so? Because Im criticizing the Broncos fans for some posts in this thread that disturb me?

Especially since there are no instances of that in this thread. (I checked. Unless I missed a Broncos fan b/c they have no obvious tie to the team, such as username, avi or sig)



IDK . . . it just irritates me when people use sweeping statements. There's no need for it and such statements are usually obviously incorrect.

Gay Ork Wang
06-19-2009, 11:32 AM
I agree. However, saying "To an extent it is true" and "(like some broncos fans)" is quite a bit different than saying

To further say it is based on comments specifically in this thread is silly.

Especially since there are no instances of that in this thread. (I checked. Unless I missed a Broncos fan b/c they have no obvious tie to the team, such as username, avi or sig)



IDK . . . it just irritates me when people use sweeping statements. There's no need for it and such statements are usually obviously incorrect.
i think he is talking about the_decider not sure about Lizardstate and i do have to agree with superman here. I mean Cutler was only good because of Marshall, now Marshall was only good because Cutler targeted him so much?

the decider13
06-19-2009, 11:33 AM
I agree. However, saying "To an extent it is true" and "(like some broncos fans)" is quite a bit different than saying

To further say it is based on comments specifically in this thread is silly.

Especially since there are no instances of that in this thread. (I checked. Unless I missed a Broncos fan b/c they have no obvious tie to the team, such as username, avi or sig)



IDK . . . it just irritates me when people use sweeping statements. There's no need for it and such statements are usually obviously incorrect.

Some Broncos fans are definately like that. Most of the fan sites are filled with somewhat delusional fans. I use Broncotalk.net for all my team info, but there is some crazy people there. Like "There is no reason we can't make a playoff run this year" or "Kyle Orton will be better than Cutler and I hope Cutler fails"

That's why I post here instead of there because they are loco.

the decider13
06-19-2009, 11:35 AM
i think he is talking about the_decider not sure about Lizardstate and i do have to agree with superman here. I mean Cutler was only good because of Marshall, now Marshall was only good because Cutler targeted him so much?

I never said that Marshall made Cutler a good QB. I've said that his supporting cast and an offense that allows him to throw a ton made him a good QB. And I really don't see how there is any thing to argue about that.

And I was giving a stat about Marshall...targeted 181 times last year, about 20 more times than any other receiver in the NFL. That is just a fact.

EDIT: I don't even think Lizardstate is a Bronco fan.

Gay Ork Wang
06-19-2009, 11:39 AM
because besides Marshall you have Royal and the rest is about the same or even inferior than the bears (receiving threats that is)

regoob2
06-19-2009, 11:40 AM
Some Broncos fans are definately like that. Most of the fan sites are filled with somewhat delusional fans. I use Broncotalk.net for all my team info, but there is some crazy people there. Like "There is no reason we can't make a playoff run this year" or "Kyle Orton will be better than Cutler and I hope Cutler fails"

That's why I post here instead of there because they are loco.
That is a good one.

FlyingElvis
06-19-2009, 11:40 AM
i think he is talking about the_decider not sure about Lizardstate and i do have to agree with superman here. I mean Cutler was only good because of Marshall, now Marshall was only good because Cutler targeted him so much?

Except he is most definitely NOT talking about any one fan. Re-read my post & the quotes. You're missing the point, imo. It's not whether some fans have said such things or not, it's about using definitive terms that include ALL Broncos fans.

the decider13
06-19-2009, 11:43 AM
because besides Marshall you have Royal and the rest is about the same or even inferior than the bears (receiving threats that is)

No credit to Scheffler or Graham? Olsen might be better than Scheffler, but Graham is better than Clark. Stokely is very under rated and caught a ton of 1st downs last year.

What about the O line? Only allowing 11 sacks the entire year. Cutler was a good player in his own right, but he would not have done as well without that cast.

I would be willing the bet he doesn't touch 4000 yards this year.

FlyingElvis
06-19-2009, 11:45 AM
EDIT: I don't even think Lizardstate is a Bronco fan.

Lizardstate's choice of words leads me to believe he is not a Broncos fan. "That" defense . . . "They" brought in . . .

regoob2
06-19-2009, 11:55 AM
No credit to Scheffler or Graham? Olsen might be better than Scheffler, but Graham is better than Clark. Stokely is very under rated and caught a ton of 1st downs last year.

What about the O line? Only allowing 11 sacks the entire year. Cutler was a good player in his own right, but he would not have done as well without that cast.

I would be willing the bet he doesn't touch 4000 yards this year.Bears wont throw as much so of course he wont. He could if they asked him to.

Geo
06-19-2009, 12:08 PM
That defense has been terrible since Al Wilson left & Gary Kubiak took their best defensive assts. with him to Houston. The other 31 teams knew they couldn't stop the run so they ran all over Denver, that's why Cutler's numbers were so skewed with more INTs than TDs last yr, he was forced into playing catchup & took a lot of chances.

They brought in retread d-linemen like Kavika Pittman & I think Mike Myers to stop the run several yrs. ago, didn't work. Remember when they couldn't get past the Indy Colts in the AFC playoffs so they traded Clinton Portis to the Skins for Champ Bailey to pair with Bly & stop Peyton Manning from throwing for 300+ yds/gm? How did that work out for them? Then last yr. it was a major overhaul converting to the 3-4 with bad fit personnel (their 1st 2 draft choices were offensive players Clady & Eddie Royal), it looked like they were ignoring their porous defense.

And with that awful defense it didn't matter how good Cutler's high-octane offense was, the best Shanahan could do was 9-7 & 7-9 the last 2 yrs, too much mediocrity that's why he got canned after 14 yrs.

http://www.rockymountainnews.com/news/2008/sep/03/clout-drought-broncos-super-bowl-years-decade-behi/
Let's get some damn things straight here:

1. Kubiak joined the Houston Texans in 2006. There are zero coaches on the Texans who coached any part of the 2005 Broncos defense, which hosted the 06 AFC Championship Game against the Steelers. The only former Broncos coaches of real quality that the Texans have are on the offensive side of the ball: Alex Gibbs and Kyle Shanahan. But here's a detailed look on the defensive side of the ball:

Frank Bush, defensive coordinator
2001-03: Special Teams, Denver Broncos
2000: Secondary/Nickel Package, Denver Broncos

David Gibbs, defensive backs
2003-04: Defensive backs, Denver Broncos
2002: Secondary, Denver Broncos
2001: Safeties, Denver Broncos

Ray Rhodes, senior defensive assistant
2001-02: Defensive Coordinator, Denver Broncos

The biggest losses for the Broncos defense: (1) Al Wilson, a sparkplug leader who made everyone around him better and accountable, due to a career-ending neck injury; and (2) Larry Coyer, 2000-02 linebackers coach & 03-06 defensive coordinator, who Shanahan made the scapegoat. Wilson and Coyer led a Top 10 scoring defense every single year he was the DC. 9th in 03, 9th in 04, 3rd in 05, and 8th in 06. After Coyer left, the Broncos were 28th in 07 and 30th in 08.

2. The reason Cutler threw more INTs than TDs last year is because he's good for a few boneheaded throws every game. Has been throughout his professional career. Scoring touchdowns is harder than gaining yards.

The stupidest thing is to say the Broncos had a Top 5 offense last year, it's completely idiotic and that goes for Mike Mayock as well for being such a dope. The 08 Denver Broncos were 2nd in the league in offensive yardage but squarely 16th in scoring. A top 5 offense isn't absolutely average when it comes to scoring, give me a ******* break.

The Kyle Orton-led Chicago Bears scored more points last year.

3. In 2005 The Denver Broncos acquired four Cleveland Browns defensive linemen: Courtney Brown, Ebenezer Ekuban, Mike Myers, and Gerrard Warren. Hence the monicker at the time of the "Browncos". Romeo Crennel in his great wisdom <snicker> didn't want them when he took over the Browns in '05, the Broncos picked them up one way or another, and they actually played well for the better part of the first two years.

4. In 2004 the Broncos traded Clinton Portis for Champ Bailey and a 2nd round pick (which they used to draft Tatum Bell). A superb trade. Portis was griping about a new contract after two superstar seasons to open his career, instead the Broncos got a much more valuable player and paid him the new contract. Plus Bell was okay in his time at Denver.

5. The Broncos acquired Dre Bly in 2007.

6. The Broncos ran a 4-3 defense last year, like the previous years. The 3-4 is only coming into play now after the McDaniels' hire, with his hiring of Mike Nolan as his defensive coordinator.

7. For all the criticism the Shanny the GM richly deserves, and it's an outstanding amount, drafting Ryan Clady and Eddie Royal with his first two picks last year should be no where near among it. Those are two players who, although it's still early, to this point have looked like nothing but starting professional football players with exceptional ceiling.

LizardState
06-19-2009, 01:04 PM
Lizardstate's choice of words leads me to believe he is not a Broncos fan. "That" defense . . . "They" brought in . . .



Not a Broncos fan, guilty as charged.

Always loved Bowlen though, he was the poster boy for the Hands-Off Owner, the anti-Al Davis in the AFC West if you will, who hired fb professionals to run the team & empowered them. His change in mgmt. style this offseason by getting involved with fb decision-making is disturbing to this Denver non-homer. He just added to the damage control problems, not a p/o of the solution.

I admit to becoming recently anti-Denver mgmt. when I read that open letter in the Colorado media that bitchslapped Cutler, like I've posted earlier, the tone in it was mean-spirited, really dissing the former local superstar top draft choice hero after virtually running him out of town, it sounded personal at that point. I thought better of Bowlen than to allow then exacerbate this mess. And all the finger-pointing, & the McDaniel arrogance... ...it;s easy to drink the Denver hater ade right now, this thread clearly indicates that

Gay Ork Wang
06-19-2009, 01:10 PM
Not a Broncos fan, guilty as charged.

Always loved Bowlen though, he was the poster boy for the Hands-Off Owner, the anti-Al Davis in the AFC West if you will, who hired fb professionals to run the team & empowered them. His change in mgmt. style this offseason by getting involved with fb decision-making is disturbing to this Denver non-homer. He just added to the damage control problems, not a p/o of the solution.

I admit to becoming recently anti-Denver mgmt. when I read that open letter in the Colorado media that bitchslapped Cutler, like I've posted earlier, the tone in it was mean-spirited, really dissing the former local superstar top draft choice hero after virtually running him out of town, it sounded personal at that point. I thought better of Bowlen than to allow then exacerbate this mess. And all the finger-pointing, & the McDaniel arrogance... ...it;s easy to drink the Denver hater ade right now, this thread clearly indicates that
http://manertainment.com/wordpress/wp-content/gallery/featured/to_crying.jpg

"But, he was my Quarterback, my teammate"

LizardState
06-19-2009, 01:40 PM
4. In 2004 the Broncos traded Clinton Portis for Champ Bailey and a 2nd round pick (which they used to draft Tatum Bell). A superb trade.

For the Redskins maybe, they got a lot of mileage out of Portis, who is looking increasingly beat up .... Denver got a 2nd also, thank you, I did not remember that p/o it. Well it was the Skins, who throw draft picks into the wind like juju beads at Mardi Gras :o . But they still have failed to draft to improve what is statistically a really bad defense, & it's the 500-pound gorilla in the living rm. in Denver. Of the 1st 4 picks the last 2 drafts, only one defensive player? It's not like there weren't some DTs, or runstuffer ILBs available?

Browncos? Also arguably the Denver defense that Kubiak brought with him to Houston launched the also short-lived monicker "Denver South" for the Texans, maybe wrong about the assts. now but I will still claim the transplanted defensive philosophy is verifiable.

I was looking at the preseason PFW about the Texans converting to the 3-4 but it's this yr's issue, I was talking about the Texans with whom I was comparing them, sorry about the confusion

maybe a 3-4 will work better for them, I personally don't think they have the LBs for it. Not yet anyway, see above comment on werent there some ILBs darftable when they picked? Hell, they have to try something. Yes, they, that's who They are, the new Denver regime. That's who I am talking about, let me be clear. Granted we can't hold them accountable for the mistakes & disasters in the last yrs. of Shanahan, & this latest PR stain on their team rep as a team most of the rest of the players, most recently this one of their own, our thread topic, do not want to play for, & apparently most of the fans want to fail this season, that is wholly on McDaniel, Bowlen & company.

Apologies to Broncos homers if I was too prickly, but I really hate it when a formerly well-run team turns bad, in this case from the top down. Bowlen should take a microscopically close look at the guy he hates most on the planet, Al Davis, or at Jerry Jones for that matter, & how that hands-on owner, authoritarian I'm Never Wrong, personal touch approach has served them or their teams recently.

CC.SD
06-19-2009, 04:29 PM
God that T.O. pic is disturbing. He really is a little child. A disturbed, disturbed little child.

yourfavestoner
06-19-2009, 04:41 PM
God that T.O. pic is disturbing. He really is a little child. A disturbed, disturbed little child.

He really is, though, and that's what makes it so hard for me to dislike him. Dude had a ****** up childhood that left him emotionally scarred for life.

CC.SD
06-19-2009, 04:46 PM
He really is, though, and that's what makes it so hard for me to dislike him. Dude had a ****** up childhood that left him emotionally scarred for life.

I was with him up until the fake overdose. And that's going through a lot. Ultimately it's difficult to have the energy to care anymore about his antics, I don't care how many kids spit in his mouth.

jth1331
06-19-2009, 05:24 PM
Haha, i'm kind of with Superman on this one, the Denver fans turn on the player in a snap. Cutler this, Cutler that. Marshall this, Marshall that. As soon as the player wants out, he isn't half the player that he appears to be and Denver is still a place they should want to play. I'm only speaking from what i've seen on here, but it has come off pretty strong. Both players were elite talents, but when they say something, they are made to be half the players Denver somehow made them.

Marshall deserves his money, and i certainly don't blame him for trying to get it. I'm with BigBlue. If he feels this is the best financial move for him, or best move for him as a player, he should go out and get it. He's getting paid less than half than what someone like him is worth, and the odds are he will be gone when his contract expires anyway, so they should try to trade him.

The person who should be getting the hate is McDaniels. Maybe he ends up winning a championship level team, but his introduction to getting there is a rough one. It looks as though he's taking the approach of thinking he's already a champion and can do what he likes. Not sure how that will rub players.

Denver has some solid individual pieces, but they aren't overwheling in numbers, and their doesn't appear to be much chemistry remaining. Throw in a coach with an attitude, and a lackluster contract.....get me out of here before i lose my money. Marshall has an attitude, so this shouldn't come as a surprise that he is looking out for himself first...

Well, Cutler rubbed a lot of Bronco fans the wrong way with that whole situation, so of course they will be upset about him and want to see him fail.

As for Marshall deserving his money, he is an altercation away from an 8 game suspension. His off the field antics I think are showing more hesitation to get a deal done than production. The fact is though, he has no pull in this. Broncos can certainly just have him sit out, collect fines from him. It isn't like they don't want to lock him up.

To an extent it is true. While you will have the fans who are not only fans of their team but fans of the NFL and have a knowledge and understanding of the game, you also have ones (like some broncos fans) who jump ship at the snap of a finger. As a Bear fan browsing message boards, I have seen quite a bit of Cutler bashing from Broncos fans. Not bashing his attitude, but saying how bad he is. All of the sudden their messiah has become the worst player in the league. Thats how it comes off with some broncos fans.

Luckily, NFLDC has a lot of smart NFL fans who CAN recognize that other players and teams are good other than their own.

Honestly, I believe all teams suffer from this. If a good player leaves the team like the way Cutler did, and Marshall, I'd believe there would be a decent amount of fans of that team that have disgust for that player and think he isn't as great as advertised in hopes he fails.

For the Redskins maybe, they got a lot of mileage out of Portis, who is looking increasingly beat up .... Denver got a 2nd also, thank you, I did not remember that p/o it. Well it was the Skins, who throw draft picks into the wind like juju beads at Mardi Gras :o . But they still have failed to draft to improve what is statistically a really bad defense, & it's the 500-pound gorilla in the living rm. in Denver. Of the 1st 4 picks the last 2 drafts, only one defensive player? It's not like there weren't some DTs, or runstuffer ILBs available?

That was a great trade. Champ Bailey fired up that defense, he was a tremendous part for the Broncos defense and was absolutely amazing. Champ Bailey got the Broncos to an AFC Championship game appearance, what has Portis done for the Redskins? It was a very good trade for the Broncos.
As for the draft, lets look at 2008. Matt Lepsis retired, the Broncos had a gaping whole at LT. Clady was an excellent pick to protect what many thought would be the franchise QB of the Broncos for the next decade at least. Besides, no DE/DT/LB was worth that pick. Now, looking at it, WR, the Broncos had Brandon Marshall and Brandon Stokley, and scrubs after that since they cut Javon Walker loose. The draft isn't always drafting for need, but best available player. Nearly everybody thought Royal was a reach, but he turned out to be a tremendous pick.
As for 2009, same thing. There haven't been really any good DT's in the drafts of late to take high. Trading up for Alphonso Smith was stupid IMO, and will hurt in the long run.

CC.SD
06-19-2009, 07:24 PM
I don't love what McDaniels has done to part of the team (driving players off) but I like some of his ideas. We weren't going anywhere with Shanny, so there was definately a need for a new coach. I wanted Spags the whole time, but the team chose McD, so that is who I have to live with. I'll take the team over any single player, a new receiver will show up who I'll like. If Marshall stays, fantastic, he is still one of my favorite players. If he leaves, I'll be a little upset, but I'll cheer for the next Broncos WR.

team>player

http://extras.mnginteractive.com/live/media/site36/2009/0324/20090324__mcdaniels~p1_200.jpg

For my money none of McDaniels' ideas have been any good yet. Major decisions of the McDaniels era:

Take this picture.
Trade Cutler. For Orton.
Draft a RB at 12th overall despite the worst D in the NFL.
Draft a pass rusher. (This one was good, but honestly a project one-year wonder was not exactly a safe move. We'll see.)
Trade away next year's pick.
Pick a fight with his other offensive superstar.
Cut Boss Bailey. (win!)


I mean yiiiiiikes. At this point if I'm Bowlen and the decision is McDaniels or Marshall, it's a toughie. It would be easy if I hadn't already been duped into getting rid of Cutler.

Ness
06-20-2009, 01:44 AM
As for Marshall deserving his money, he is an altercation away from an 8 game suspension. His off the field antics I think are showing more hesitation to get a deal done than production. The fact is though, he has no pull in this. Broncos can certainly just have him sit out, collect fines from him. It isn't like they don't want to lock him up.


True his off the field antics have been obnoxious. But at the same time you should make the decision on whether you are going to pay the man or not. 33 other players on the Broncos are getting paid more than he is according to a report I heard on NFL Network. And he's had two superb back to back seasons. I mean what more really does he have to do to get a new deal?

Mr. Stiller
06-20-2009, 03:02 AM
It's not like there weren't some DTs, or runstuffer ILBs available?


It was widespread fact that the Bronco's tried to trade up to #14 for Lawrence Timmons, then Tried to trade up with the Pittsburgh Steelers who eventually selected him.

the decider13
06-20-2009, 09:15 AM
For my money none of McDaniels' ideas have been any good yet. Major decisions of the McDaniels era:

Take this picture.
Trade Cutler. For Orton.
Draft a RB at 12th overall despite the worst D in the NFL.
Draft a pass rusher. (This one was good, but honestly a project one-year wonder was not exactly a safe move. We'll see.)
Trade away next year's pick.
Pick a fight with his other offensive superstar.
Cut Boss Bailey. (win!)


I mean yiiiiiikes. At this point if I'm Bowlen and the decision is McDaniels or Marshall, it's a toughie. It would be easy if I hadn't already been duped into getting rid of Cutler.

Well....Cutting Boss was actually a good thing. Doesn't really fit to well in the 3-4, and even if he did, he would never be healthy enough to play. I like the Moreno pick, but the rest of that is definately true.

Except it was Cutler for Ayers, Orton and next years first. I can't remember where that other third went. I assume it was part of the Quinn trade up.

jth1331
06-20-2009, 01:47 PM
True his off the field antics have been obnoxious. But at the same time you should make the decision on whether you are going to pay the man or not. 33 other players on the Broncos are getting paid more than he is according to a report I heard on NFL Network. And he's had two superb back to back seasons. I mean what more really does he have to do to get a new deal?

Again, its not like the Broncos don't want to pay him, its basically Marshall demanding a trade and not really wanting to get a deal done. And although the altercation earlier this year was nothing, he still seems to have off the field issues and that is a concern.

Gay Ork Wang
06-20-2009, 02:20 PM
Again, its not like the Broncos don't want to pay him, its basically Marshall demanding a trade and not really wanting to get a deal done. And although the altercation earlier this year was nothing, he still seems to have off the field issues and that is a concern.
Marshall is demanding the trade because they arent giving him the deal he wants to. for Marshall, he knows he can get the biggest money right now, after a season with Kyle Orton throwing him the ball in a spread offense, his value is prolly going to drop and he does have concerns so obviously he wants to get paid now. The FO is just the other way around and want to pay him as less as possible. Its just natural with all his concerns to try to get as much as possible. I think this situation has indirectly to do with McD. with Cutler gone, he sees his production dropping so thats one of the reasons he wants out

TimD
06-20-2009, 02:53 PM
This is why I love hockey. When players hold out and have contract disputes it stays in the house. The majority of guys aren't worried about their production just winning the cup.

Sniper
06-20-2009, 06:57 PM
Draft a pass rusher. (This one was good, but honestly a project one-year wonder was not exactly a safe move. We'll see.)

A "pass rusher" with 3 sacks as a senior. Sheer genius.

Ness
06-20-2009, 11:19 PM
Again, its not like the Broncos don't want to pay him, its basically Marshall demanding a trade and not really wanting to get a deal done. And although the altercation earlier this year was nothing, he still seems to have off the field issues and that is a concern.

Then why haven't the Broncos paid him yet? He's demanding a trade because he hasn't been paid. Marshall should been paid a long time ago.

MichaelJordanEberle (sabf)
06-20-2009, 11:21 PM
This is why I love hockey. When players hold out and have contract disputes it stays in the house. The majority of guys aren't worried about their production just winning the cup.

Tell that to Dany Heatley.

jth1331
06-21-2009, 12:41 AM
Then why haven't the Broncos paid him yet? He's demanding a trade because he hasn't been paid. Marshall should been paid a long time ago.

They haven't paid him yet because he was almost suspended this season due to his altercation he had earlier in the year.
Plus, now he basically is cleaning up shop and telling everybody peace out. Hard to get a deal done when the player acts like that.

And Marshall carries a huge risk involved, his off the field antics are a cause of concern. Plus, coming off hip surgery can be a cause for concern as well. Personally, I think he should get paid more, but not as much as he thinks he is worth due to other factors.

Plus, as much as I like Marshall, he can also be easily frustrated in a game and perform poorly, as well as having mental lapses in games.

BlindSite
06-21-2009, 02:04 AM
Making a huge financial commitment to a player that's yet to show he can go a year without bashing someone or breaking himself isn't exactly a wide strategy when he's still under contract.

Gay Ork Wang
06-21-2009, 02:14 AM
Making a huge financial commitment to a player that's yet to show he can go a year without bashing someone or breaking himself isn't exactly a wide strategy when he's still under contract.
it obviously isnt, but he knows that but thats why he wants out. If he cant get a contract here, there is going to be someone that will give him, at least thats what he is speculating. And you can understand his side, he just wants to be financially save

BlindSite
06-21-2009, 02:16 AM
I definitely see his side, I was just trying to reinforce or rather, clarify the broncos.

People saying he should have been paid already is a little off. If I was him I'd want to be paid for my production too, but I can understand why the team is reluctant to give him a franchise contract.

Ness
06-21-2009, 03:21 AM
They haven't paid him yet because he was almost suspended this season due to his altercation he had earlier in the year.
Plus, now he basically is cleaning up shop and telling everybody peace out. Hard to get a deal done when the player acts like that.

And Marshall carries a huge risk involved, his off the field antics are a cause of concern. Plus, coming off hip surgery can be a cause for concern as well. Personally, I think he should get paid more, but not as much as he thinks he is worth due to other factors.

Plus, as much as I like Marshall, he can also be easily frustrated in a game and perform poorly, as well as having mental lapses in games.

Well the Broncos can't just sit around and chill. They need to make a decision. Pay the man or trade him. Seriously as much as Brandon Marshall as acted unprofessionally off the field, the Broncos aren't looking like the good guys here in the slightest.

BlindSite
06-21-2009, 07:08 PM
Technically the broncos don't need to do anything.

If he sits out, he doesn't get any money from his current contract or a new one, he'll play and he'll likely play under the current contract he's on.

Anquan has been bitching out arizona for over 2 seasons now and he still hasn't been paid.

Ness
06-21-2009, 08:53 PM
Technically the broncos don't need to do anything.

If he sits out, he doesn't get any money from his current contract or a new one, he'll play and he'll likely play under the current contract he's on.

Anquan has been bitching out arizona for over 2 seasons now and he still hasn't been paid.

Doesn't mean it's professional. The Bidwells are notorious for being extremely cheap. And it's shown in the majority of their history. That Cardinals that is.

jth1331
06-21-2009, 10:18 PM
Well the Broncos can't just sit around and chill. They need to make a decision. Pay the man or trade him. Seriously as much as Brandon Marshall as acted unprofessionally off the field, the Broncos aren't looking like the good guys here in the slightest.

Broncos have all the leverage, Marshall has none. Broncos can do whatever the heck they want. Marshall racks up fines, plays this year, gets franchised in the offseason most likely.
Broncos may look like "bad guys" but what they are doing is justifiable.

BlindSite
06-21-2009, 11:09 PM
Doesn't mean it's professional. The Bidwells are notorious for being extremely cheap. And it's shown in the majority of their history. That Cardinals that is.

It's not unprofessional either.

Sure Marshall has been a productive receiver, but he hasn't been able to stay healthy and hasn't been able to stay out of trouble with the law. In between he's had time when he's publicly been critical of people within the organisation in the media.

You don't fork out the money to pay a guy like he's a pillar of the franchise when you don't yet know if he's going to be eligible to play due to suspension from year to year and you can't depend on him off field.

Marshall should stay quiet, turn in a good, trouble free year then ask for an extension. Right now he produces like an elite receiver but doesn't deserve to be paid like one.

superman8456
06-21-2009, 11:19 PM
It's not unprofessional either.

Sure Marshall has been a productive receiver, but he hasn't been able to stay healthy and hasn't been able to stay out of trouble with the law. In between he's had time when he's publicly been critical of people within the organisation in the media.

You don't fork out the money to pay a guy like he's a pillar of the franchise when you don't yet know if he's going to be eligible to play due to suspension from year to year and you can't depend on him off field.

Marshall should stay quiet, turn in a good, trouble free year then ask for an extension. Right now he produces like an elite receiver but doesn't deserve to be paid like one.

How hasnt he been able to stay healthy? He has missed two games in his 3 seasons. If you're talking about the hip injury, I dont see it as that big of a deal.

You can put clauses in the contract for times when he's ineligible to play so he wont get paid, etc.

He's gonna be a FA after the next season, so you might as well get something in return for him while he's still there. He deserves to be paid NOW.

Shane P. Hallam
06-21-2009, 11:22 PM
It's not unprofessional either.

Sure Marshall has been a productive receiver, but he hasn't been able to stay healthy and hasn't been able to stay out of trouble with the law. In between he's had time when he's publicly been critical of people within the organisation in the media.

You don't fork out the money to pay a guy like he's a pillar of the franchise when you don't yet know if he's going to be eligible to play due to suspension from year to year and you can't depend on him off field.

Marshall should stay quiet, turn in a good, trouble free year then ask for an extension. Right now he produces like an elite receiver but doesn't deserve to be paid like one.

I disagree on the last part. This is football. Injuries can hit you hard and your career can be over. Kyle Orton at QB could hinder Marshall's numbers. No reason not to try and get paid now.

Gay Ork Wang
06-22-2009, 05:18 AM
Broncos have all the leverage, Marshall has none. Broncos can do whatever the heck they want. Marshall racks up fines, plays this year, gets franchised in the offseason most likely.
Broncos may look like "bad guys" but what they are doing is justifiable.
u really think that shines a good spotlight on the team and players are going to sign with the Broncos more likely after that?

BlindSite
06-22-2009, 05:29 AM
I disagree on the last part. This is football. Injuries can hit you hard and your career can be over. Kyle Orton at QB could hinder Marshall's numbers. No reason not to try and get paid now.

I'm not denying his right to try or the necessity at times for players to
demand an extension, but the team definitely has a good reason not to pay him yet.

jth1331
06-22-2009, 05:09 PM
u really think that shines a good spotlight on the team and players are going to sign with the Broncos more likely after that?

Considering other teams would probably do something similar, yes. The Packers did something similar to Javon Walker, that turned out fine for both.
I don't see why the Broncos are looked at as such douchebags for being reluctant to sign a guy with off the field troubles and coming off a hip injury.
The Broncos want to keep Marshall and eventually extend his contract, but he isn't helping his case either at this point.

Chief49er
06-22-2009, 06:35 PM
He is a woman beating ***** and I hope he gets kicked out of the NFL before he gets a big contract.

Smooth Criminal
06-22-2009, 07:12 PM
It was widespread fact that the Bronco's tried to trade up to #14 for Lawrence Timmons, then Tried to trade up with the Pittsburgh Steelers who eventually selected him.

I would have loved that happening. Then the Steelers could have taken Revis at 15.

Ness
06-22-2009, 07:52 PM
It's not unprofessional either.

Sure Marshall has been a productive receiver, but he hasn't been able to stay healthy and hasn't been able to stay out of trouble with the law. In between he's had time when he's publicly been critical of people within the organisation in the media.

You don't fork out the money to pay a guy like he's a pillar of the franchise when you don't yet know if he's going to be eligible to play due to suspension from year to year and you can't depend on him off field.

Marshall should stay quiet, turn in a good, trouble free year then ask for an extension. Right now he produces like an elite receiver but doesn't deserve to be paid like one.
What does that have to do with the team not making a decision on whether they should keep him or trade him? Why would you want a player on your team that doesn't want to be around? Makes zero sense. How is not being able to make a decision professional? Might as well trade him and get some value for him while he's still in good shape.

BlindSite
06-22-2009, 09:31 PM
His value isn't very high right now. Who wants to trade for a guy in the final year of his contract who has major character concerns, minor injury concerns and just spent the last few weeks bitching out his front office?

His trade value right now is about a conditional third round pick.

The broncos have nothing to lose by letting him *****. He's not going to sit out 17 weeks of money.

Ness
06-23-2009, 01:58 AM
His value isn't very high right now. Who wants to trade for a guy in the final year of his contract who has major character concerns, minor injury concerns and just spent the last few weeks bitching out his front office?

His trade value right now is about a conditional third round pick.

The broncos have nothing to lose by letting him *****. He's not going to sit out 17 weeks of money.

A team that is in desperate need of a receiver. Virtually the same thing happened with Terrell Owens when he left the 49ers. Granted he was a free agent and wasn't in the final year of his contract, but he had been bitching non-stop about how he was ready to leave San Francisco. And by this time he had a few character concerns. Yet Philadelphia signed him to that massive deal. And really at the start, it worked wonders for the Eagles who really had maybe the worst receiving corps in the league during that time.

MetSox17
06-23-2009, 04:25 AM
You're insane if you think that all Marshall could get is a third rounder. Need i remind you that this is the NFL, and that Adam Jones and Tank Johnson were on NFL rosters last year?

Teams don't give a **** about players that have bad character if they produce at a high level. You don't think that the Deadskins would be willing to give up a second round pick, even a first round pick, for Marshall? There's plenty of teams in need of an elite receiver, and everyone thinks that they have the coaching staff to help players mature. The money isn't an issue if he goes to another team, the only thing teams should be weary of is the fact that he has already been suspended, and his next one might cause him to miss a good chunk of the year. If he can keep a clean slate and keep from getting suspended, anyone will take that headache in a heartbeat.

the decider13
06-23-2009, 09:32 AM
Honestly, the low end for Marshall is a first rounder. I could see him only getting a first because of the character concerns and the fact the team is gonna have to give a huge contract to him. Although like some of you have said, Roy Williams may have set a precedent of a first and third for a top quality receiver.

LonghornsLegend
06-23-2009, 10:25 AM
He's gonna be a FA after the next season, so you might as well get something in return for him while he's still there. He deserves to be paid NOW.

Why does he deserved to be paid NOW, please explain that to me.


Or did you not notice Greg Jennings is still playing on his 2nd round rookie contract? Roddy White doesn't have a new contract either, and you don't hear a peep out of those guys as far as the off the field stuff.


Somebody will pay him, but I would consider Denver much more stupid if they decided to pay him asap after all this stuff he has looming over his head.

vikes_28
06-23-2009, 11:00 AM
The little ***** should just be grateful that he was even drafted. Millions of high school guys dream of being drafted in the NFL. And he had the talent to do it. Because of ******* like Brandon Marshall, or TO is why I prefer watching college ball over pro ball. In college they do it for the love of the game. I wish I could get drafted and get millions and millions of dollars for being unproven. Ungrateful little bitches.

Addict
06-23-2009, 11:09 AM
He is a woman beating ***** and I hope he gets kicked out of the NFL before he gets a big contract.

wasn't that charge dropped?

Geo
06-23-2009, 11:10 AM
He's gonna be a FA after the next season, so you might as well get something in return for him while he's still there. He deserves to be paid NOW.
Denver can franchise tag Marshall after this season though, and that is what I would consider doing. Unless he acts like an idiot and gets himself suspended for a season or half of a season. The shame is that Denver passed up the chance to draft Jeremy Maclin at the Draft because they thought they were pretty set at WR.

As for Marshall having to be paid now, well, he could already be lined up to get paid. According to rotoworld (link (http://www.rotoworld.com/content/playerpages/player_main.aspx?sport=Nfl&id=3653)), Marshall has a $2.198M base salary this year. So assuming that's true, that is WAY more than what a 4th round pick on the fourth year of his rookie contract makes. More than what a 3rd round pick or a 2nd round pick or even some late 1st round picks make in their fourth year.

(Actually that is exactly the same as a 1st round RFA tender for 09, not that Marshall became a restricted FA. Again assuming it's true, his contract must have been structured in such a way that, hitting the incentives/escalators, his fourth year base salary would spike up to the equivalent 1st round RFA tender.)

Anyways that amount is more than four times what Greg Jennings is currently scheduled to make ($535K). Roddy White, in his 5th year as a former 1st round pick, has a $2.28M base salary for 09.

MetSox17
06-23-2009, 01:57 PM
The little ***** should just be grateful that he was even drafted. Millions of high school guys dream of being drafted in the NFL. And he had the talent to do it. Because of ******* like Brandon Marshall, or TO is why I prefer watching college ball over pro ball. In college they do it for the love of the game. I wish I could get drafted and get millions and millions of dollars for being unproven. Ungrateful little bitches.

Well thanks for that little number, you obviously have no sense whatsoever as to the business aspect of this game. It's not about playing for the love of the game, or any of that b.s. The fact of the matter is that Marshall plays and produces for his club like a top flight player at his position, and has done so for two straight years now. He is getting paid chump change in comparison to some of the guys he is out-producing, not "millions and millions of dollars" like you stated. Do you even know how much money he makes off a 4th round contract? Randy Moss probably makes more in one pay-check than Marshall does the whole season, and he produces just like him. Market value says he's worth more than he gets paid, so pay the man.

Why don't i hear people spew that same tired argument about "doing it for the love of the game" when speaking of the owners? Are you okay with them making a killing with their team, yet not compensating their workers?

Edit- Hadn't read Geo's post on Marshall's contract numbers prior to posting this. Either way, 2 million isn't much.

BlindSite
06-23-2009, 04:01 PM
If Marshall was worth what you're saying, if there was such a high demand for another receiver, he nor Boldin would be upset right now and both would be in new uniforms.

Ness
06-23-2009, 04:53 PM
The little ***** should just be grateful that he was even drafted. Millions of high school guys dream of being drafted in the NFL. And he had the talent to do it. Because of ******* like Brandon Marshall, or TO is why I prefer watching college ball over pro ball. In college they do it for the love of the game. I wish I could get drafted and get millions and millions of dollars for being unproven. Ungrateful little bitches.

The NFL is a business. There is nothing wrong looking for what you think is your market value. You can do that and still have love for the game. It's not like these ball clubs don't just see players as financial commodities either.

Ness
06-23-2009, 04:56 PM
If Marshall was worth what you're saying, if there was such a high demand for another receiver, he nor Boldin would be upset right now and both would be in new uniforms.

Well Arizona doesn't want to trade Boldin apparently. And if I recall they then entertained offers, but weren't satisfied with what those offers were.

Ness
06-23-2009, 05:01 PM
Denver can franchise tag Marshall after this season though, and that is what I would consider doing. Unless he acts like an idiot and gets himself suspended for a season or half of a season. The shame is that Denver passed up the chance to draft Jeremy Maclin at the Draft because they thought they were pretty set at WR.

As for Marshall having to be paid now, well, he could already be lined up to get paid. According to rotoworld (link (http://www.rotoworld.com/content/playerpages/player_main.aspx?sport=Nfl&id=3653)), Marshall has a $2.198M base salary this year. So assuming that's true, that is WAY more than what a 4th round pick on the fourth year of his rookie contract makes. More than what a 3rd round pick or a 2nd round pick or even some late 1st round picks make in their fourth year.

(Actually that is exactly the same as a 1st round RFA tender for 09, not that Marshall became a restricted FA. Again assuming it's true, his contract must have been structured in such a way that, hitting the incentives/escalators, his fourth year base salary would spike up to the equivalent 1st round RFA tender.)

Anyways that amount is more than four times what Greg Jennings is currently scheduled to make ($535K). Roddy White, in his 5th year as a former 1st round pick, has a $2.28M base salary for 09.

He is making a lot of money true. But I see it from the perspective of just having more financial security in the long run and not just playing year after year with the franchise tag or whatever. Because if you get injured or something you're screwed and you aren't going to get paid. And this isn't just for Marshall, but for a lot of players in the league.

Now if I was Marshall I'd probably be in camp just so my abilities wouldn't diminish. There is obvious risk with that though because if you get injured like I said before, your contract extension will vanish. And you'll feel stupid for going to camp without a new deal set in place.

Hines Ward did the same thing several years ago if I remember correctly. He held out for like two weeks of training camp, but everyone was okay with him doing it.

jth1331
06-25-2009, 07:27 PM
Do you even know how much money he makes off a 4th round contract? Randy Moss probably makes more in one pay-check than Marshall does the whole season, and he produces just like him. Market value says he's worth more than he gets paid, so pay the man.

Edit- Hadn't read Geo's post on Marshall's contract numbers prior to posting this. Either way, 2 million isn't much.

First, no way will I say Brandon Marshall produces like Randy Moss. In 2 full seasons, he has a total of 13 TD's. Randy Moss in a down year had 11 last year. He was 22nd in TD receptions. IMO, if you want to be considered truly elite, you rack in the TD numbers. As much as he wants to be paid, he should be able to produce more than 13 TD's in 2 years.
He is a great WR, and deserves a good contract extension, but he is not fully on the elite scale yet. Comparing him to Randy Moss is ridiculous IMO.