Draft Discussion - Defensive Ends

[TACKLE]

Here's a wide open thread to discuss Defensive Ends. Post any thoughts or opinions on the DE's: your rankings, who's underrated, who's overrated, break out prospects, sleepers, best fits, etc. This is the place to break down the 2010 DE class.

[TACKLE]

Sergio Kindle is a beast. He'll be a 3-4 OLB in the pros but I expect him to be one of the best defensive players in college football in 2010. He's explosive off edge and although he's a little undersized, he's surprisingly good against the run.

Sergio Kindle for Heisman. http://draftcountdown.com/forum/images/icons/icon7.gif

[Cicero]

I wouldn't mind if the Seahawks took the beast known as Carlos Dunlap with the Broncos pick next year one bit. :) Best DE prospect since Mario Williams.

[TACKLE]

Purely as a prospect...

Is Carlos Dunlap going to be closer to Mario or closer to Jamal Anderson.

[Yatta!]

This class is absolutely loaded at DE, plenty of talent for the 4-3 and 3-4 alike and there is loads of depth.

[Sniper]

http://www.mgoblue.com/uploadedImages/Sports/Football/Articles/2000s/2008-2009/News_Releases/graham-092908_300.jpg

/thread. Thanks for coming.

[TACKLE]

http://www.mgoblue.com/uploadedImages/Sports/Football/Articles/2000s/2008-2009/News_Releases/graham-092908_300.jpg

/thread. Thanks for coming.

Brandon Graham is just the bouncer. This guy owns the club.

http://sports.espn.go.com/photo/2009/0415/ncf_g_hardy_200.jpg





I actually like Brandon Graham and could see him going in the late 1st, but imo, Hardy is the best DE in this class. He's one of the best all around DE's I've seen in years. He just needs to prove he can consistently stay healthy.

[Sniper]

BG55 is a better all-around DE than Greg Hardy. Yeah, I said it.

[TACKLE]

BG55 is a better all-around DE than Greg Hardy. Yeah, I said it.

When I first watched Hardy, I expected him to just to be an a athletic speed rusher. Which he was. He has a great first step and actually has pass rush moves unlike many college DE's. But what surprises me when I watch him is how well he plays the run. He is physical, solid at the point of attack and did a good job at shedding blocks. He's also a very high motor guy. In comparison Graham is a solid all around DE who had a real nice junior year, but I don't think he has the natural athletisism and explosiveness that Hardy possesses. Not to say BG isn't athletic or explosive, but I don't think he's quite of Hardy's level. Plus BG55 is like 6'1 270.

Now, Snipe I know there's no point in trying to convince you anyway. Told is to Iowa as you are to Michigan. Nick Sheridan for Heisman. http://draftcountdown.com/forum/images/icons/icon12.gif

[Texas Homer]

Sig check.

I think Sergio Kindle will be awesome as a 3-4 OLB.

Here is blurb from Houston Chronicle writer Lance Zierlein about Kindle.
__________________________________________________ _______________
I had a scout call me last weekend and he was VERY excited. What made an NFL scout this excited in May? Texas LB Sergio Kindle. This scout had a soft 3rd round grade on Kindle during last season, but he didn't watch Kindle as closely as other prospects who he knew would be in this year's draft. After watching the Longhorns defense closely on ten game films from last year, he boldly predicted that Sergio Kindle would be a top 10 pick next year and he feels like, upon further review, that Kindle would have been a first round pick. He thinks Kindle will be tougher against the run and a better blitzing LB than Wake Forest's Aaron Curry.
__________________________________________________ _______________

[TitansCJftw]

I think CJ wilson from ecu will be a solid 4-3 DE for somebody past round 1, he has had a pretty solid career at ECU

albeit vs inferior opponents heres some footage http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uL8Dr_z8z3A

[Sniper]

When I first watched Hardy, I expected him to just to be an a athletic speed rusher. Which he was. He has a great first step and actually has pass rush moves unlike many college DE's. But what surprises me when I watch him is how well he plays the run.

I sure do hope Brandon learns how to play the run. I wouldn't want him finishing fifth in the nation in TFL (20 in just 11 games) again. That would certainly suck.


He is physical, solid at the point of attack and did a good job at shedding blocks.

BG's better at it.


He's also a very high motor guy.

Graham does take plays off.


In comparison Graham is a solid all around DE who had a real nice junior year, but I don't think he has the natural athletisism and explosiveness that Hardy possesses. Not to say BG isn't athletic or explosive, but I don't think he's quite of Hardy's level. Plus BG55 is like 6'1 270.

6'2", 275, but who's counting? You know who else was considered a great tactician with very good strength and so-so SAQ measurables?

http://blog.mlive.com/sagsports_impact/2009/02/large_Super_Bowl_XLIII_Football_F.jpg

You know who Graham's been getting compared to since his arrival at Michigan? That guy. You know who got overlooked because of a supposed lack of speed? That guy.

Here's a list of DEs/3-4 OLBs taken ahead of LaMarr Woodley in '07.

Gaines Adams
Jamaal Anderson
Adam Carriker
Jarvis Moss
Anthony Spencer

IIRC, all were considered to be faster, quicker, blah blah blah Jarvis Moss SEC SPEEEDZ!!!!!!!. Of the six on that list (Woodley + the five scrubs), who would you take first today?

The point is that Brandon Graham, like LaMarr Woodley (a.k.a Norse God of Thunder/Destroyer of QBs/Owner of the Universe) probably loses a 40 and all that jazz against his competitors. The one thing he doesn't lose (to most of them)? The actual productivity. Take Gaines Adams 2.0, I'll take LaMarr Woodley 2.0.

Graham outproduced guys like Carlos Dunlap and Greg Hardy and still can't get any respect.

Now, Snipe I know there's no point in trying to convince you anyway. Told is to Iowa as you are to Michigan.

Nonsense. I didn't dominate the Biggest Homer voting.

Nick Sheridan for Heisman.

Hop on the bandwagon before seats fill up.

[princefielder28]

I think CJ wilson from ecu will be a solid 4-3 DE for somebody past round 1, he has had a pretty solid career at ECU

albeit vs inferior opponents heres some footage http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uL8Dr_z8z3A

CJ Wilson will get noticed, just give it time

[superman8456]

No Jerry Hughes talk yet?

http://www.deseretnews.com/photos/midres/6136448.jpg

Or George Selvie?

https://admin.xosn.com/pics15/400/SM/SMQUTKFSMGTRAUZ.20080516030147.jpg

Both are going to make a 3-4 team VERY happy.

Also, I think a lot of people are overrating Carlos Dunlap. He possesses great athletic ability and amazing size, but the comparisons to Mario Williams are far off imo. Mario Williams is strong at point of attack and has the strength to play a LDE. Carlos Dunlap does NOT. He isnt that strong at the point of attack or against the run and his best position would be RDE. Think Gaines Adams...

[superman8456]

Here's a list of DEs/3-4 OLBs taken ahead of LaMarr Woodley in '07.

Gaines Adams
Jamaal Anderson
Adam Carriker
Jarvis Moss
Anthony Spencer

IIRC, all were considered to be faster, quicker, blah blah blah Jarvis Moss SEC SPEEEDZ!!!!!!!. Of the six on that list (Woodley + the five scrubs), who would you take first today?


Honestly, I would take Gaines Adams first.

[parrish_lemar24DBSkins]

Woodley IMO is the perfect player in the perfect scheme. I think he could get it done as a 4-3 DE to some degree, but he unlikely would be the disrupter he's capable of being in a 3-4.

Point is, it depends on the scheme. Carriker was moved inside with the Rams, not his true position as a SDE.

Jarvis Moss IS a scrub, Anthony Spencer is something of an unknown, and Adams and Anderson smell like busts.

For some young DEs, it takes them a few years to transition to the pro game, but if Adams and Anderson don't flash something this year, I doubt they ever will, unless they play on a Dline with exceptional interior lineman.

Personally, I underestimated Woodley, and wonder where/what position he would have played if the Steelers didn't draft him.

[TACKLE]

For those of you who think George Selvie weighs 240-245, you're wrong. Selvie has made a huge effort since he arrived at USF to bulk up. Right now he's about 260-265. In his big sophomore year, he was thin but he was noticably thicker this season.

[Thumper]

For those of you who think George Selvie weighs 240-245, you're wrong. Selvie has made a huge effort since he arrived at USF to bulk up. Right now he's about 260-265. In his big sophomore year, he was thin but he was noticably thicker this season.

Honestly I cannot think of a better comparison than Trent Cole. All these "scouts" (walterfootball *cough*) have him pegged as a one trick pony who can only rush the passer. Alot of people say the same thing about Cole. They have similar size and the both play with the same intensity. They both have a lightning first step and make a ton of plays behind the line.

Trent Cole is arguably the NFL's best run defending DE, the thing is he couples that with a very good ability to get to the QB with regularity. 23 plays behind the LOS in 2007 with 12.5 sacks and 10.5 stuffs, his 9 and 9 this year is a year many DE's would love to have, and it was a down year for Trent. And it goes back to 2006 with 8 sacks and 7 stuffs and even as a rookie playing part time with 5 stuffs and 5 sacks. 34.5 sacks and 31.5 stuffs over the past 4 years is tremendous. 65 negative plays in 3 and a half seasons of starting. Out of this world from a DE. The only rival to that is Jared Allen with his mind boggling numbers of 79.5 negative plays over the past four years.

George Selvie possesses the same type of ability and skill set to put up numbers very similar to that. Just look at his Sophomore season where he dominated the college ranks. That year he had 14.5 sacks and an insane 31.5 TFL. Over the course of his career he has registered 25.5 sacks and an astounding 60 TFL. This guy is not a one trick pony by any measure, he is an all around DE in the mold of Trent Cole.

Selvie is one of my favorite prospects this year.

[parrish_lemar24DBSkins]

Wish Selvie had come out in the '09 draft.

I liked him better than Orakpo as a pure DE.

Will he be a top 10 pick, or does it depend on if he can equal the production of the last three years?

[Sniper]

Honestly, I would take Gaines Adams first.

Really?

Adams- 38 tackles, 6.5 sacks, 6 PD, 2 INT
Woodley- 60 tackles, 11.5 sacks, 2 PD, 1 INT (also set an NFL record with most consecutive games with 2+ sacks with 4)

[regoob2]

Wish Selvie had come out in the '09 draft.

I liked him better than Orakpo as a pure DE.

Will he be a top 10 pick, or does it depend on if he can equal the production of the last three years?
I doubt he goes top 10. Everette Brown was a better prospect.

[parrish_lemar24DBSkins]

Selvie is more of a prototypical DE than Everette Brown, and there's no way IMO he would have lasted until the #43 pick like EB.

[DeathbyStat]

After the evaluation process Dunlap will make scouts giddy and he will be the first guy taken but i don't know how good he will be.

My favorite sleeper is Corey Wootton

[Hines]

Brandon Lang for DE/OLB for me. Dude is a serious pass rusher from a team that has two of the best in the business.

[regoob2]

Selvie is more of a prototypical DE than Everette Brown, and there's no way IMO he would have lasted until the #43 pick like EB.
How so? Brown was a better pass rusher and has better bulk. Both arent run stuffers obviously.

[SenorGato]

Brandon Lang for DE/OLB for me. Dude is a serious pass rusher from a team that has two of the best in the business.

+1

He'll shoot up boards.

Love him, Hardy, and Graham. Graham is just mean, and I buy the Woodley comparison.

Greg Hardy is the shyte thugh. He's my favorite player in the upcoming draft.

[Don Vito]

Brandon Graham is just the bouncer. This guy owns the club.

http://sports.espn.go.com/photo/2009/0415/ncf_g_hardy_200.jpg

I actually like Brandon Graham and could see him going in the late 1st, but imo, Hardy is the best DE in this class. He's one of the best all around DE's I've seen in years. He just needs to prove he can consistently stay healthy.

Hardy needs to stay healthy. If he does, everyone will see how good he can be. I don't think people realize how good he is against the run, he is a great all around end and a freakish athlete. He could be a top guy if he stays healthy.

[srv fan]

I think Greg Hardy is the best DE in next year's draft, amazing all around player. However, character concerns could drop him.

Carlos Dunlap is going to be the first DE taken, but I wouldn't touch him with a 10 foot pole. Dunlap have to get one of his legs chopped off NOT to be a top 5 pick, which means making a huge financial commitment to a guy who needs a ton of developmental work. Don't get me wrong, the sky is the limit due to his physical tools, but he has a lot to work on. Dunlap is huge and really fast, but oddly weak at the point of attack, doesn't play with great leverage, doesn't really seem to have a lot of variety in his pass-rushing moves. In college it doesn't matter, he can dominate off of his physical gifts, but without adding a lot of strength and technique he will get eaten up. Of course, he's young and any team drafting him will be planning on him developing a lot, but I would be very leery of tossing millions and millions of dollars at a developmental prospect (the Jamarcus Russell theory of drafting).

Brandon Graham will probably go lower than he should, for a variety of reasons. Graham doesn't have elite measurables, and his stats are going to significantly drop off next year because Michigan is moving to a 3/4 style defense, and as we all know 5 tech DE is not a stats position. That said, he's a great player, and is going to make some late 1st/early 2nd round team very, very happy. It's going to be said 1000000000 times over the next year, but Graham is eerily similar to Lamarr Woodley.

[SenorGato]

Thank you for the Dunlap knocks...dude is so overrated.

He wishes he was Greg Hardy.

If Greg Hardy stayed healthy, he'd hear Merriman comparisons. I think he can be a more well rounded version of Merriman...I like making the comparison to Calvin Pace but I feel like people will think I'm selling him short. He's obviously a much better pass rusher than Pace ever has been.

[parrish_lemar24DBSkins]

How so? Brown was a better pass rusher and has better bulk. Both arent run stuffers obviously.

Selvie is a taller, rangier prospect than Brown, and can play with a little better leverage against bigger, taller OTs than EB, who mostly beat Olineman in college with pure quickness and speed off the LOS.

Also, I'm going off speculation that Selvie will play this season closer to 260 lbs than the 245 he was last year.

Their production in college IMO was roughly equal, although I don't know how often Brown was double-teamed, unlike Selvie was in most games.

[DeathbyStat]

I think Greg Hardy is the best DE in next year's draft, amazing all around player. However, character concerns could drop him.

Carlos Dunlap is going to be the first DE taken, but I wouldn't touch him with a 10 foot pole. Dunlap have to get one of his legs chopped off NOT to be a top 5 pick, which means making a huge financial commitment to a guy who needs a ton of developmental work. Don't get me wrong, the sky is the limit due to his physical tools, but he has a lot to work on. Dunlap is huge and really fast, but oddly weak at the point of attack, doesn't play with great leverage, doesn't really seem to have a lot of variety in his pass-rushing moves. In college it doesn't matter, he can dominate off of his physical gifts, but without adding a lot of strength and technique he will get eaten up. Of course, he's young and any team drafting him will be planning on him developing a lot, but I would be very leery of tossing millions and millions of dollars at a developmental prospect (the Jamarcus Russell theory of drafting).

Brandon Graham will probably go lower than he should, for a variety of reasons. Graham doesn't have elite measurables, and his stats are going to significantly drop off next year because Michigan is moving to a 3/4 style defense, and as we all know 5 tech DE is not a stats position. That said, he's a great player, and is going to make some late 1st/early 2nd round team very, very happy. It's going to be said 1000000000 times over the next year, but Graham is eerily similar to Lamarr Woodley.

Dunlap sounds a bit like Michael Johnson?

[TACKLE]

Brandon Lang for DE/OLB for me. Dude is a serious pass rusher from a team that has two of the best in the business.

I'm really intrigued by Lang. Some of that has to do with Osi and Ware but his production has been impressive. Though, tbh, I haven't really seen him play. Only briefly on youtube videos.

[yourfavestoner]

Dunlap sounds a bit like Michael Johnson?

Except Dunlap has some production to go along with his freakish athleticism.

[TACKLE]

http://www2.pictures.gi.zimbio.com/USC+v+UCLA+MK1DoBid4t7l.jpg

Don't forget about Everson Griffen. He is a freak. His speed and strength are ridiculous. I expect him to breakout in 2009. His production wasn't that impressive last year but he was playing the 5-technique in their 3-4 a lot. This year, SC will go back to more 4-3 so he will get more opportunities to get after the QB. Yes I know high school times are always a little quicker but he ran a 4.4 at 265lbs. He's 6'3 and a very solid 265 and has tons of potential.

[Todd Bertuzzi]

I am willing to guarantee Al Davis takes Griffin with Oakland's first rounder. I had it in my first mock and I doubt I'll change it. The guy's right down Al's alley and he also fills one of the Raiders most pressing needs.

[Texas Homer]

I do like Everson Griffen and Carlos Dunlap a lot as well.

[GhostDeini]

Carlos Dunlap is strong as hell, wth are you talking about ? And dude led SEC in sacks with 7 as sophmore. And why is Calvin Pace getting comparisions now ? That's actually a diss. Dude was a huge bust from Wake. 6 sacks doesnt make him good now.

[superman8456]

http://i.a.cnn.net/si/2007/writers/cory_mccartney/05/04/shoes.to.fill/t1_sapp.jpg

Ricky Sapp is one of my favorite players in the draft. I think he will be a nice find in the mid rounds. This guy is extremely athletic and fast for his size. Gonna make a great RDE in the NFL imo. Could use a bit more polishing with his pass rush moves, etc.

[TACKLE]

I really want to see Ricky Sapp do well with his crazy speed but he has no production to back up his ability (only 2.5 sacks). Hopefully DaQuan Bowers development will help Sapp get more opportunities to get after the QB.

[princefielder28]

Everson Griffen gets a ton of attention without much production. Much like North Carolina's Marvin Austin, he gonna need to show some skill this season to back up all the hype and make 'em legit NFL prospects.

[princefielder28]

I'm anxious to see what Indiana's Greg Middleton does after such a disappointing 2008 season. He followed up a 16 sack sophomore season with just 4 sacks last season, and he's gone from a potential first rounder to maybe undrafted.

[superman8456]

http://cache.daylife.com/imageserve/0cGN8tvgQF2fc/610x.jpg

Anybody know anything about Greg Romeus? I, personally, dont.

[princefielder28]

http://cache.daylife.com/imageserve/0cGN8tvgQF2fc/610x.jpg

Anybody know anything about Greg Romeus? I, personally, dont.

Romeus is another kid who had a big sophomore year, but I am not going to get all excited about him until he can back it up with a big junior year. He seems to translate as a 3-4 OLB.

[TACKLE]

Everson Griffen gets a ton of attention without much production. Much like North Carolina's Marvin Austin, he gonna need to show some skill this season to back up all the hype and make 'em legit NFL prospects.

Yeah, I can see that. Though like I said earlier, USC ran a lot of 3-4 with Cush and Clay on the outside and Rey and Kaluka in the middle. Griffen had to play a lot of 5-technique which is clearly not his natural position. In the 3-4, he probably would have been a better fit as an OLB. With that being said, if he can put up a solid 8-11 sack season, he should be a 1st round pick assuming he declares.

[srv fan]

Dunlap sounds a bit like Michael Johnson?

No. Dunlap has a huge frame even if he doesn't maximize its use. Johnson was built like a twig for a DE. Also, Dunlap has actually produced at a high level, whereas Johnson was all potential. Basically, Dunlap is way better both as a current player, and as a developmental prospect.

I think I may have given the wrong impression in my previous post. Dunlap is already good and has great tools, he will almost certainly be a top pick. My qualm is more about taking a relatively raw player with a top pick, considering the financial commitment.

Carlos Dunlap is strong as hell, wth are you talking about ?

He probably is, but he doesn't use it very well. He still relies way more on his speed, which is okay but ignores the gift of being a 290 pound DE.

[SenorGato]

Dunlap may be strong, but it doesn't play out on the field like...well like srv says...like a 290 pound DE should.

Great talent though, but alot of DE's in this draft have sick talent.

[parrish_lemar24DBSkins]

Man, if there was ever a year to grab a top flight DE prospect, the 2010 draft is locked in.

Makes me wish even more that Snyderrato had passed on Orakpo, grabbed OT Oher, then looked for a DE next year.

Oh well. One day Vinny will be fired as Danny's racquetball buddy and the Skins will hire a REAL GM.

[eaglesalltheway]

I like a lot of DE and 3-4 OLB prospects this year. If I had to rate them, I'd put it like this.

Dunlap
Graham
Selvie
Hardy
Griffin
Lang

All bring different things to the table and all could potentially be first rounders next year. I like Graham more than most (except Sniper) but he is underrated right now IMO. Much like Woodley, his combine isn't going wow anyone, but his play will. He needs to play with a consisitent motor though. Selvie is a great DE prospect who can really be a great RE in the NFL. Hardy could make a great 3-4 OLB, but he needs to stay healthy to stay in the first round mix. Griffin is another DE who if he realizes his full potential, could be a force. Lang is a great pass rusher, and if he can continue his play, as well as have a solid pre-draft process, could be a late first rounder. There are other guys who can work into the first round as well, but these are guys that I particularly like.

[etk]

Except Dunlap has some production to go along with his freakish athleticism.

O RLY?

Carlos Dunlap: 39 tackles, 13.5 TFL, 9.5 sacks, 1 PBU, 1 FF, 0 INT
Michael Johnson: 46 tackles, 17.5 TFL, 9 sacks, 7 PBU, 3 FF, 1 INT TD

Michael Johnson "lack of production" is one of the biggest myths I've ever seen. Johnson is, however, a good comparison for Dunlap because Dunlap plays like a soft undersized rush DE.

Dunlap is extremely overrated as a prospect. He's top-heavy and he's not a natural knee-bender. He has little to no explosiveness off the ball. He isn't overly strong or powerful at the point-of-attack and doesn't set the edge like Tyson Jackson. Dunlap is just a big guy with decent athletic ability. Some of you are falling for the early hype train because of his size, but I'll take a guy like Greg Hardy or Brandon Graham over Dunlap any day.

[Saints 4 Lyfe]

what do you guys think of Rahim Alem? Chad Jones brother.

6'3 254

https://www.nmnathletics.com/pics22/400/PE/PEKITXIYTBMVHFQ.20081103212926.jpg

http://assets.espn.go.com/photo/2009/0327/ncf_u_alem_300.jpg

[Don Vito]

what do you guys think of Rahim Alem? Chad Jones brother.

6'3 254

https://www.nmnathletics.com/pics22/400/PE/PEKITXIYTBMVHFQ.20081103212926.jpg

http://assets.espn.go.com/photo/2009/0327/ncf_u_alem_300.jpg

I like Alem, he is talented and really stood out when Ole Miss played LSU this year.

[Dam8610]

So, between the 2 DL positions, are there 20+ potential first rounders at this point?

[superman8456]

So, between the 2 DL positions, are there 20+ potential first rounders at this point?

Yes, basically. This is a GREAT defensive draft if you ask me. They're extremely low on skilled positions, but defensively its stacked.

[eaglesalltheway]

So, between the 2 DL positions, are there 20+ potential first rounders at this point?

Well, basically, at this point, there are hundreds of potential first rounders, lol

[parrish_lemar24DBSkins]

So, between the 2 DL positions, are there 20+ potential first rounders at this point?

LOL!!

It's beginning to look that way!!!

[themaninblack]

I like Alem, he is talented and really stood out when Ole Miss played LSU this year.

Everytime I watched LSU this year I came away impressed with Alem. Didn't always make a bunch of noise on the stat sheet but he seemed to make a ton of plays happen when he was in the game and made a few himself too.

[TACKLE]

Eu2wuaKUhGs

Why aren't more people talking about this guy? Jammie Kirlew was a beast at Indiana last year with 10.5 sacks, 19.5 TFL's, 74 Tackles and 2 FF. He's 6'3 264 and is quite strong and explosive. I know the fact that Greg Middleton flopped so hard after his 16 sack season could be a concern but Kirlew is lighter and more athletic.

[Hines]

I love Dexter Davis. He can just get after the quarterback. I want the Steelers to draft him.

[TACKLE]

I love Dexter Davis. He can just get after the quarterback. I want the Steelers to draft him.

How is Bruce Davis working out for you guys? He was a guy in a very similar mold, an undersized Pac-10 pass rusher who had a knack for getting after the passer. Do you think he can develop into something?

[Hines]

How is Bruce Davis working out for you guys? He was a guy in a very similar mold, an undersized Pac-10 pass rusher who had a knack for getting after the passer. Do you think he can develop into something?

He seems to be playing soft. From what I have read, he is a finease pass rusher and struggles at times in coverage. I think he is on the bubble to make the team this year.

[etk]

He seems to be playing soft. From what I have read, he is a finease pass rusher and struggles at times in coverage. I think he is on the bubble to make the team this year.

Try telling Lee Corso and Kirk Herbstreit that.

[TACKLE]

What is really seperating Carlos Dunlap from Corey Wootton? Both guys are similar in H/W/S. Both guys have similar production. Though Dunlap is considered a potential top 3 pick whereas Wootton is a fringe first rounder. I'm not saying Wootton should be in the discussion as a top pick but why Dunlap?

[YAYareaRB]

What is really seperating Carlos Dunlap from Corey Wootton? Both guys are similar in H/W/S. Both guys have similar production. Though Dunlap is considered a potential top 3 pick whereas Wootton is a fringe first rounder. I'm not saying Wootton should be in the discussion as a top pick but why Dunlap?

It might be just as simple as the schools that they go to.

[Babylon]

What is really seperating Carlos Dunlap from Corey Wootton? Both guys are similar in H/W/S. Both guys have similar production. Though Dunlap is considered a potential top 3 pick whereas Wootton is a fringe first rounder. I'm not saying Wootton should be in the discussion as a top pick but why Dunlap?

6-6 280lbs with about 4.7 speed tends to get people's attention. Going to Florida doesnt hurt either.

[BigBanger]

What is really seperating Carlos Dunlap from Corey Wootton? Both guys are similar in H/W/S. Both guys have similar production. Though Dunlap is considered a potential top 3 pick whereas Wootton is a fringe first rounder. I'm not saying Wootton should be in the discussion as a top pick but why Dunlap?
A bunch of people look at his size, his school and his "athleticism considering his size" and they say, "Hey, look at this freak. Top 5 pick right there."

He hasn't done a damn thing to warrant such comments... Not on the field anyway. He's not considered a top 3 pick until he starts playing like one. Basically, people are guessing. That's what happens a year before an actual draft takes place. It's just lot of people talking a lot of **** about a lot of players that haven't done ****. That leads to a bunch of sheep giving the same **** guesses.

[JFLO]

A bunch of people look at his size, his school and his "athleticism considering his size" and they say, "Hey, look at this freak. Top 5 pick right there."

He hasn't done a damn thing to warrant such comments... Not on the field anyway. He's not considered a top 3 pick until he starts playing like one. Basically, people are guessing. That's what happens a year before an actual draft takes place. It's just lot of people talking a lot of **** about a lot of players that haven't done ****. That leads to a bunch of sheep giving the same **** guesses.

I agree but at the same time disagree.

Corey Wootton is a tremendous playmaker and a player that doesn't get enough national credit for his play, especially last season. I'm interested to see how he overcomes his knee injury from last years bowl game but I'm sure he'll be fine.

However, I still think that Carlos Dunlap is more athletic and the stats that he has put up for only starting two games during his career is pretty tremendous. I question his weight, I highly doubt that he is 270. I imagine that he is around 250. He obviously gets more attention playing for Florida, but that is just the belly of the beast.

I would still take Dunlap over Wootton, but I think Wootton is a first round pick too.

[wonderbredd24]

It might be just as simple as the schools that they go to.

I think exposure has a lot do with this. When it comes to the draft and specifically amateur draft people like those on this board, it's very hard to see how good a player is when you can barely see him on TV if at all. I bet there's a large chunk of people on this board that do not see a Northwestern game all season, so how would they know how good Wootton is?

On the other hand, Florida is on every week, so they get to see guys like Dunlap every week. Plus, the fact he is as big and athletic as he is and goes to Florida, people tend to assume talent he may or may not have by virtue of the program pedigree.

As a comparison, there are many people who would argue that RG3 is better than Terrelle Pryor and he may be, but I lived in Colorado last year (Big XII country) and I did not see a Baylor game all year, so I couldn't see the kid play outside of youtube and ESPN highlights.

[wonderbredd24]

Thoughts on some DE/OLBs

George Selvie, USF: After exploding onto the national scene as a sophomore, he had a harder time as a junior when teams really focused on neutralizing him with chips, double teams, etc. I am excited to see if Selvie can adjust as a senior, because if he can learn moves, use his hands better, and beat them and have a big year, look out, because he will move up draft boards. He is so explosive off the snap and if he polishes his game, he could be special as a pro.

Jerry Hughes, TCU: I hope I can see TCU play this year, because I'm excited to watch Hughes play. Everytime I see him, I just him explode off the ball and he terrorized opposing QBs. I'm interested to see what he can do with another year of progression.

Thaddeus Gibson, OSU: Gibson, at times last year looked special as a pass rusher. He looked incredible against Penn State, but dissapeared in a number of other games. I know he's still learning the game, but I expect big things out of him this year and he was very strong in the Navy game. If he is consistent this year, he may make the jump. I also think he is a far better fit at OLB in the 3-4 than Gholston.

[ToldLikeItIs]

Aforementioned Christian Ballard had 6 tackles and a sack against UNI.

He spent a good amount of time in the backfield.

Youtube clips should be up soon.

[YAYareaRB]

I think exposure has a lot do with this. When it comes to the draft and specifically amateur draft people like those on this board, it's very hard to see how good a player is when you can barely see him on TV if at all. I bet there's a large chunk of people on this board that do not see a Northwestern game all season, so how would they know how good Wootton is?

On the other hand, Florida is on every week, so they get to see guys like Dunlap every week. Plus, the fact he is as big and athletic as he is and goes to Florida, people tend to assume talent he may or may not have by virtue of the program pedigree.

As a comparison, there are many people who would argue that RG3 is better than Terrelle Pryor and he may be, but I lived in Colorado last year (Big XII country) and I did not see a Baylor game all year, so I couldn't see the kid play outside of youtube and ESPN highlights.

Pretty much sums up what I was trying to say.

[YAYareaRB]

Jan Jorgensen impressed me when he went up against Trent Williams. He held his own.

[BigBanger]

Now everyone can call Derek Morgan a first round talent.

[SuperKevin]

Now everyone can call Derek Morgan a first round talent.

He probably already was before tonight

[BigBanger]

He probably already was before tonight
2 sacks... top 10... that's 4 sacks in 5 QTs...

[ironman4579]

As PL said in the College week 1 thread, Brandon Graham spent almost as much time in the WMU backfield as Tim Hiller.

[etk]

A bunch of people look at his size, his school and his "athleticism considering his size" and they say, "Hey, look at this freak. Top 5 pick right there."

He hasn't done a damn thing to warrant such comments... Not on the field anyway. He's not considered a top 3 pick until he starts playing like one. Basically, people are guessing. That's what happens a year before an actual draft takes place. It's just lot of people talking a lot of **** about a lot of players that haven't done ****. That leads to a bunch of sheep giving the same **** guesses.

You're talking about Dunlap right?

If so...totally agree. He plays like a girl and said athleticism doesn't translate on the field at all.

As PL said in the College week 1 thread, Brandon Graham spent almost as much time in the WMU backfield as Tim Hiller.

Graham looks much improved this year. It seems like he shed some weight and is better conditioned. I still have questions about his stamina and I'd like to see him trim down even more. I do like his strength, power and 1st-step quickness though. He's pretty versatile in terms of scheme and skill-set, but he really needs to pursue harder to the ball and more consistently at that.

[Malaka]

Hi, I am here to talk about the extremely underrated Derrick Morgan, for those of you who don't know that is #91 on Georgia Tech. He lit it up against Clemson, with 2 sacks. He's got a non-stop motor, excellent technique, and is just as great against the run against the pass, BBD says he reminds him of Justin Tuck and I couldn't agree more, at 6'4 280 pounds I actually have him as my #1 DE, with Hardy close behind and Dunlap after that.

http://www.playatgatech.com/UserFiles/Copy%20of%20MorganD_2008-10-11_E_DJ.JPG

And I am just going to pimp Austen Lane one more time DE out of Murray State he's going to be 2nd or 3rd round pick I know it. 6'7 265 4.6 40.

[superman8456]

Hi, I am here to talk about the extremely underrated Derrick Morgan, for those of you who don't know that is #91 on Georgia Tech. He lit it up against Clemson, with 2 sacks. He's got a non-stop motor, excellent technique, and is just as great against the run against the pass, BBD says he reminds him of Justin Tuck and I couldn't agree more, at 6'4 280 pounds I actually have him as my #1 DE, with Hardy close behind and Dunlap after that.

http://www.playatgatech.com/UserFiles/Copy%20of%20MorganD_2008-10-11_E_DJ.JPG


You're wrong about one thing, he had three sacks vs Clemson :) and 5 sacks on the season

[Malaka]

You're wrong about one thing, he had three sacks vs Clemson :) and 5 sacks on the season

He's a beast he's only been mentioned once previously in this thread. This guy needs to be mentioned with the top 3 DEs.

[TACKLE]

Even in this incredibly deep class of 3-4 DE's, I think Cameron Heyward from Ohio State could emerge as one of the top 5-techs and a potential first rounder. I had high hopes for him last year but he struggled to stay healthy. This year he's back and he looks great. He dominanted a great USC O-Line and was disruptive all game. He has a great combination of strength and explosiveness. Not to mention prototypical size at 6'6 287.

http://www.nationalchamps.net/2009/sub/pics/small/ohiostate_cameron_heyward.jpg

[Thumper]

^^^
He had a fantastic game, he was active, he split double teams, he was a huge reason why the vaunted USC running attack struggled for the larger part of the game. He penetrated the backfield, rerouted running backs up the middle and made things tough for Barkley all game. He did fantastic all game.

And he has the measurables, I remember some people hyping him up as the next Mario Williams. Now obviously he isn't but he is pretty athletic for a guy his size, not Allen Bailey or Gerald McCoy but still pretty athletic.

[wonderbredd24]

Even in this incredibly deep class of 3-4 DE's, I think Cameron Heyward from Ohio State could emerge as one of the top 5-techs and a potential first rounder. I had high hopes for him last year but he struggled to stay healthy. This year he's back and he looks great. He dominanted a great USC O-Line and was disruptive all game. He has a great combination of strength and explosiveness. Not to mention prototypical size at 6'6 287.

http://www.nationalchamps.net/2009/sub/pics/small/ohiostate_cameron_heyward.jpg

He and Brandon Deaderick from Alabama are similar in how they play

[Malaka]

This year's DE class is so extremely deep, I'd be so happy if my team needed a DE you will be seeing DE talent good enough for round 1 slip all the way to the late 2nd. Of course not everyone will come out so in reality this year and next years classes are going to have some amazing DE prospects.

[ToldLikeItIs]

Cameron Heyward is actually Richard Seymour.

[superman8456]

Eversen Griffen had a good game against OSU.

[rabbisson]

Lindsey Witten from Connecticut is currently tied for the nation's lead in sacks.

He's big, strong and fast. I think he could be a potential first round pick this year over Graham and Lang.

[Don Vito]

I know a lot of people try to compare prospects to Justin Tuck nowadays, but does anyone think Derrick Morgan could be in the Tuck mold?

[etk]

Derrick Morgan is a complete player. He definitely has Tuck potential.

[mattrice]

I love Dexter Davis. He can just get after the quarterback. I want the Steelers to draft him.

Took the words right out of my mouth. He is going to be a Day 2 STEAL for somebody.

[Gchu83]

http://i114.photobucket.com/albums/n254/garypchu/sergio2.gif

http://i114.photobucket.com/albums/n254/garypchu/sergio1.gif

[will99890]

Nice hit in the gifs, too bad it would be good for 15 the other way in the pros. Leading with the top of the helmet directly at the QBs helmet is a big no-no in the pros. Kindle's a real nice player but I have some concern about the head on his shoulder, hope he proves me wrong though.

To stay on topic, Greg Hardy is a beast and my number 2 defensive player behind Eric Berry. I think if Hardy stays healthy and produces at least a decent season he is guaranteed to be a top 10 pick.

[wonderbredd24]

Sergio Kindle has no technique whatsoever. Just like Orakpo, outside speed rush or nothing.

The players are partly responsible, but this seems like a major failing of the UT coaching staff.

I'd rather draft a kid who knows how to play football in the 1st round, but that's me

[etk]

Sergio Kindle has no technique whatsoever. Just like Orakpo, outside speed rush or nothing.

The players are partly responsible, but this seems like a major failing of the UT coaching staff.

I'd rather draft a kid who knows how to play football in the 1st round, but that's me

Kindle has all the physical ability to succeed in the pros. Moreso than Orakpo.

[Texas Homer]

Sergio Kindle has no technique whatsoever. Just like Orakpo, outside speed rush or nothing.

The players are partly responsible, but this seems like a major failing of the UT coaching staff.


This is Kindle's 1st year at DE.

[BigBanger]

Kindle has all the physical ability to succeed in the pros. Moreso than Orakpo.
Just because Kindle plays DE doesn't mean he's going to be a DE in the NFL.

Kindle is a LB, either ILB in a 34 or SLB in a 43. I think he can be very similar to Bartt Scott, but potentially much more athletic and more explosive.

Kindle is probably the most misunderstood prospect in this whole draft. I say that because people compare him to Orakpo or talk about his lack of technique as a pass rusher. Just remember DE is a new position for him and he was playing lights out at OLB. That's his natural position. Orakpo had major bust potential and if Knidle is drafted to play DE, then his bust potential probably soars as well.

[ToldLikeItIs]

Through 3 games Carlos Dunlap has 1 sack, and 6 tackles.

[wonderbredd24]

Just because Kindle plays DE doesn't mean he's going to be a DE in the NFL.

Kindle is a LB, either ILB in a 34 or SLB in a 43. I think he can be very similar to Bartt Scott, but potentially much more athletic and more explosive.

Kindle is probably the most misunderstood prospect in this whole draft. I say that because people compare him to Orakpo or talk about his lack of technique as a pass rusher. Just remember DE is a new position for him and he was playing lights out at OLB. That's his natural position. Orakpo had major bust potential and if Knidle is drafted to play DE, then his bust potential probably soars as well.

I looked at Kindle as an OLB in the 3-4, because he would have a big advantage against almost all other comers because he knows how to play linebacker and therefore is not uncomfortable in space. With a year with his hand on the ground, he'd have a better idea of how to rush the passer making him very attractive to anyone running the 3-4 to put him at rushbacker.

I can appreciate it is his first year at DE, but he should know how to use his hands. He took on blocks as a linebacker I'd hope or did he choose rather to run around all of them? But from what I have seen, just like with Orakpo, the second an offensive lineman gets their hands on them, the play is over.

I think this goes to a larger question regarding Texas though... why are they producing techniqueless Defensive Ends?

[Sniper]

Through 3 games Carlos Dunlap has 1 sack, and 6 tackles.

And still sucks at run defense.

[Gchu83]

I looked at Kindle as an OLB in the 3-4, because he would have a big advantage against almost all other comers because he knows how to play linebacker and therefore is not uncomfortable in space. With a year with his hand on the ground, he'd have a better idea of how to rush the passer making him very attractive to anyone running the 3-4 to put him at rushbacker.

I can appreciate it is his first year at DE, but he should know how to use his hands. He took on blocks as a linebacker I'd hope or did he choose rather to run around all of them? But from what I have seen, just like with Orakpo, the second an offensive lineman gets their hands on them, the play is over.

I think this goes to a larger question regarding Texas though... why are they producing techniqueless Defensive Ends?

I absolutely agree that Kindle is better suited as a 3-4 OLB rather than DE at this point, but this is his 3rd game at DE so I'm gonna wait before I say he has no technique or can't play DE at the next level.

How much have you actually seen? I'm a Longhorn so I'm a little biased I guess but I never agreed with Orakpo and the lack of technique argument. I've seen plenty of games where he used his hands to free up blocks, spin moves, inside moves, etc...Do they use their quickness a lot? Absolutely, but both guys had 10+ sacks and a lot of TFL last season so I don't see why that's a bad thing.

As to answer your "why is Texas producing techinqueless DEs?" Who exactly are you talking about? I can name 3 DEs that have been drafted (from the Mack Brown era) and 1 is a rookie who has played 2 NFL games so far.

[BigBanger]

I looked at Kindle as an OLB in the 3-4, because he would have a big advantage against almost all other comers because he knows how to play linebacker and therefore is not uncomfortable in space. With a year with his hand on the ground, he'd have a better idea of how to rush the passer making him very attractive to anyone running the 3-4 to put him at rushbacker.

I can appreciate it is his first year at DE, but he should know how to use his hands. He took on blocks as a linebacker I'd hope or did he choose rather to run around all of them? But from what I have seen, just like with Orakpo, the second an offensive lineman gets their hands on them, the play is over.

I think this goes to a larger question regarding Texas though... why are they producing techniqueless Defensive Ends?
Texas is pretty notorious for producing talented, but raw and underachieving DLmen (Usually Frank Okam types). Kindle really isn't a DE. 34 OLBs are basically DEs. You always hear guys that play OLB in college that might have some size and pass rush ability as potential 34 OLBs when that's just not the case. Look no further than Curry last year, a prototypical 43 SLB, but people were actually wasting their time discussing his potential in a 34 as an OLB... a position he's never played and never will. Why? He's not a pass rusher. He just isn't. Same goes for Kindle, but because Kindle can run around some slug from Texas Tech, people assume he has DE potential. He doesn't. There's more to playing DE that just running around the OT.

Kindle is playing out of position right now. He's not an elite pass rusher. He's just not. If that's what you want, then you should understand that he's a project at the DE position and you could be in for a major disappointment. Drafting a guy who's had 1 year of experience at a position is not a good idea, especially high in the draft. All he does is bull rush or speed rush. He has no other move and doesn't use his hands at all. If you watched him against interior linemen where he doesn't have to be technically sound, he can create a huge matchup problem with his speed and quickness, then you combine that with a designed blitz... now you have a Guard not knowing he's coming and facing a player that's simply too quick for him to handle. He doesn't have to perfect the swim or rip moves or slap the linemens hands away... he can just use his speed and quickness. I think Kindle is a potential top 20 player as a 34 ILB (Probably the best LB in the Draft). As a 43 DE or 34 OLB? Late second rounder, at best. Its similar to Allen Bailey... I don't want to draft the guy right now because he hasn't even played the position for a year. He's raw and really doesn't know what he's doing. Let him play another year and see how he improves and progresses.

[katnip]

Even in this incredibly deep class of 3-4 DE's, I think Cameron Heyward from Ohio State could emerge as one of the top 5-techs and a potential first rounder. I had high hopes for him last year but he struggled to stay healthy. This year he's back and he looks great. He dominanted a great USC O-Line and was disruptive all game. He has a great combination of strength and explosiveness. Not to mention prototypical size at 6'6 287.

http://www.nationalchamps.net/2009/sub/pics/small/ohiostate_cameron_heyward.jpg

Yea, was impressed by him too.

[Me Likey Rookies]

So what do your top 3 rankings for DEs look like now with Dunlap disapointing and Hardy injured? Is Brandon Graham the big riser?

[SuperKevin]

So what do your top 3 rankings for DEs look like now with Dunlap disapointing and Hardy injured? Is Brandon Graham the big riser?

Graham is rising but Derrick Morgan might be rising as much if not more than anyone right now

[P-L]

Graham has played really well this year, but still hasn't recorded a sack. That could hurt him.

[BigBanger]

So what do your top 3 rankings for DEs look like now with Dunlap disapointing and Hardy injured? Is Brandon Graham the big riser?
Graham has actually dropped on my board (More as a result of guys moving up). I had him rated as a top 10 caliber guy in the preseason. Now, have a mid first round grade on him.

43 Guys:

1. Jerry Hughes, DE, TCU, Sr.
2. Brandon Graham, DE, Michigan, Sr.
3. Derek Morgan, DE, Georgia Tech, Jr.

34 Guys:

1. Ndamukong Shu, DE, Nebraska, Sr.
2. Gerald McCoy, DE, Oklahoma, Jr.
3. Brian Price, DE, California, Jr.

Derek Morgan is getting overrated though (I can't say I'm surprised, I actually called it during the Clemson game as it was happening). He's not Justin Tuck. He's not a top 10 player. Way too raw. Maybe for the 2011 Draft. It amazes me how a guy can dominate a team like Clemson and a guy who has no shot at the NFL (Don't know the RTs name), but he plays Miami and gets dominated, yet no one seems to notice.

[ironman4579]

Graham has played really well this year, but still hasn't recorded a sack. That could hurt him.

Unfortunately, Michigan's scorekeeper doesn't give out hurries. Graham would have like 10 hurries by now. But I agree that not having a sack at this point could hurt him, despite showing a much improved motor and a whole array of pass rush moves.

[Malaka]

Graham is rising but Derrick Morgan might be rising as much if not more than anyone right now

Derrick Morgan is a beast, he is a Justin Tuck clone. He's played better than both Dunlap and Hardy thus far.

[Don Vito]

Hardy really hasn't been on the field yet. He played a little against Memphis and made a few plays, but he was hurting and really didn't play much. He didn't even suit up last week. He says the foot is getting better but it will be Nutt's decision ultimately, Nutt kind of rushed him into playing against Memphis so he reaggravated the injury. We need him this week so hopefully he comes back as the Hardy we haven't seen in a while and is the player he can be.

[wonderbredd24]

Derrick Morgan is a beast, he is a Justin Tuck clone. He's played better than both Dunlap and Hardy thus far.

A few people on this board have outplayed Carlos Dunlap this season.

[Big_Pete]

There are a few more guys that could impact the draft

Carlos Dunlap Florida
Everson Griffen Southern California
Corey Wootton Northwestern
Greg Romeus Pittsburgh
George Selvie South Florida
Brandon Lang Troy
Cameron Heyward Ohio State
Jason Worilds Virginia Tech
C.J. Wilson East Carolina
Rahim Alem LSU
Willie Young North Carolina State
Jermaine Cunningham Florida
Lindsey Witten, Connecticut

that is without considering DTs who could play 3-4 DEs
such as Arthur Jones, Marvin Austin, Allen Bailey, Lawrence Marsh, Jared Odrick, D'Anthony Smith, Vince Oghobaase etc

this is a very good year if you want DL

[CashmoneyDrew]

Don't rule out Chris Walker. He's having a great year so far. He's a little undersized and only a junior, but if he did come out this year, don't be surprised if he's one of the top 3-4 OLBs taken in this draft.

[JFLO]

Derrick Morgan is a beast, he is a Justin Tuck clone. He's played better than both Dunlap and Hardy thus far.

I'm turning into a big Derrick Morgan fan. Maybe its the fact that Georgia Tech has been all over my TV this season, but the more I watch him, the more I like him as an NFL player. Very quick off the snap and has a very good distribution of both power and agility to get to the quarterback.

[ElectricEye]

Hardy really hasn't been on the field yet. He played a little against Memphis and made a few plays, but he was hurting and really didn't play much. He didn't even suit up last week. He says the foot is getting better but it will be Nutt's decision ultimately, Nutt kind of rushed him into playing against Memphis so he reaggravated the injury. We need him this week so hopefully he comes back as the Hardy we haven't seen in a while and is the player he can be.

What exactly did he do to his foot? It seems like it's taking an abnormally long time for his injury to heal. I know he's been playing through it and maybe that's not the best thing for him, but still. It's been almost a year, hasn't it?

[Babylon]

What exactly did he do to his foot? It seems like it's taking an abnormally long time for his injury to heal. I know he's been playing through it and maybe that's not the best thing for him, but still. It's been almost a year, hasn't it?

I thought it was the knee that got dinged up against Memphis. Hardy would be great if he could stay healthy but how can you invest top money for such a risk?

As for DEs Everson Griffen is an absolute beast. Maybin and Brown got a lot of hype last year but this guy is a much better player to me.

[ToldLikeItIs]

Decent clip of Adrian Clayborn (defensive player of the week in the Big Ten), dropping anchor on someone. He looks pretty agile for weighing 285.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YUCjQO2sXaE

[JFLO]

What exactly did he do to his foot? It seems like it's taking an abnormally long time for his injury to heal. I know he's been playing through it and maybe that's not the best thing for him, but still. It's been almost a year, hasn't it?

I know he fractured it, then had surgery.

Then, about a month before the season started, he re-injured it in a car accident and I don't think it has been the same since.

Unfortunately, it seems like the kind of injury that is going to maintain with him for awhile, longer than he would prefer.

[wonderbredd24]

I thought it was the knee that got dinged up against Memphis. Hardy would be great if he could stay healthy but how can you invest top money for such a risk?

As for DEs Everson Griffen is an absolute beast. Maybin and Brown got a lot of hype last year but this guy is a much better player to me.

Someone fell on him akwardly in that game if memory serves. I remember thinking it could have actually been worse.

[ElectricEye]

I know he fractured it, then had surgery.

Then, about a month before the season started, he re-injured it in a car accident and I don't think it has been the same since.

Unfortunately, it seems like the kind of injury that is going to maintain with him for awhile, longer than he would prefer.

It's a shame, considering his sophomore film is better than anyone else in the countries. He's really going to take a major hit stock wise if he can't get healthy.

[TACKLE]

Ricky Sapp is looking good this year and has been producing (5.5 TFL's, 2 sacks) though he has been primarily playing the role of stand-up edge rusher. IF he keeps this production up, he has first round talent and he could be a first round pick as a 3-4 OLB.

[Babylon]

I'd like to see Greg Hardy 100%. The guy seems to know how to read plays and drop into zones when the need arises. His size and speed ration sort of reminds me of Bears great Richard Dent. With his injury history he may be a steal late in round 1 or round 2. Just my take.

[Cigaro]

Ricky Sapp is looking good this year and has been producing (5.5 TFL's, 2 sacks) though he has been primarily playing the role of stand-up edge rusher. IF he keeps this production up, he has first round talent and he could be a first round pick as a 3-4 OLB.

He had a good game against Boston College. I saw him against Georgia Tech, and it was the same whole, 'more an athlete than a football player' Ricky Sapp we've seen the past three years. I'm pretty certain he'll end up a first round pick, as he's going to destroy the Combine, but I'm also pretty certain he'll end up a first round bust.

[SenorGato]

I'd like to see Greg Hardy 100%. The guy seems to know how to read plays and drop into zones when the need arises. His size and speed ration sort of reminds me of Bears great Richard Dent. With his injury history he may be a steal late in round 1 or round 2. Just my take.

IMO a healthy Greg Hardy is the most dominant defensive player in this very loaded defensive draft.

[JFLO]

IMO a healthy Greg Hardy is the most dominant defensive player in this very loaded defensive draft.

I think I would have to agree with this statement. It would be a debate between Hardy and Berry, but because Hardy plays such a vital position in today's game, I think I would take him (healthy) over any defensive player in this class.

A kid that size shouldn't be able to move that fast while still being able to take over a game at the right moments.

Right now, I think I have Hardy as the 2nd best DE (Dunlap) and my 12th best player in the class.

[marshallb]

I think I would have to agree with this statement. It would be a debate between Hardy and Berry, but because Hardy plays such a vital position in today's game, I think I would take him (healthy) over any defensive player in this class.

A kid that size shouldn't be able to move that fast while still being able to take over a game at the right moments.

Right now, I think I have Hardy as the 2nd best DE (Dunlap) and my 12th best player in the class.

I love Hardy. He's such a beast, when healthy. He has had some troubles with that, but players have gone on to have great healthy NFL careers despite being injury-prone in college.

I would absolutely love to have Hardy on the Vikings. Imagine him on a line with Allen and the Williamses, even if only for a year with Pat. I hope his injury concerns cause him to slide down the board to the Vikings, who haven't been afraid to take injury prone players.

[bored of education]

Jerry Hughes is the best player ever.

[ToldLikeItIs]

Adrian Clayborn blocked a punt and took it 53 yards to the house today.

[wonderbredd24]

Adrian Clayborn blocked a punt and took it 53 yards to the house today.

He's definitely a player. He seems like he could be a nice fit at a 5 tech end if he can add about 5-10 more pounds

[ToldLikeItIs]

He weighs 290. Is that not enough?

[HawkeyeFan]

He's 282 or so, in my opinion that's plenty fine.

[ToldLikeItIs]

Listed at 282, plays at 290.

[HawkeyeFan]

No... listed at 282 plays LIKE 290.

[ToldLikeItIs]

NFL Comparison?

[Jonny]

George Johnson is an interesting guy. Super athlete who didn't seem to care before this year.

[Hines]

I liked both Iowa ends and Ballard. I hope Clayborne and Ballard declare. I wouldn't mind the Steelers going after the both of them.

[HawkeyeFan]

I'll mind if they leave! They need to stay for one more season!

[ToldLikeItIs]

Binns is the other DE.

[CashmoneyDrew]

Don't rule out Chris Walker. He's having a great year so far. He's a little undersized and only a junior, but if he did come out this year, don't be surprised if he's one of the top 3-4 OLBs taken in this draft.

Had an INT return for a TD last night. Did get hurt, but I don't think it's serious.

[BigBanger]

NFL Comparison?
Tyson Jackson. He's just not as technically sound or as strong as Jackson though.

He's very similar to D'aquan Bowers (Clemson) as well. Bowers just sucks a lot more.

Right now Clayborn has no value as a 43 DE, but as a 34 DE, he's looks like a solid second rounder... for the 2011 Draft.


Binns had an excellent game as well, but he's extremely raw.


Greg Hardy finally registers a sack and he's back to being the most dominate player in the country? The guy hasn't done a thing for me to even consider wasting a third round pick on him. I'd like see him start playing as well as people think he's playing. I'd also like to see him go 3 games without an injury that doesn't keep him off the field, but does just enough to warrant some poor play.


Cigaro great post about Sapp (I don't think he'll go first round though). The only time I see him make a play is when he's unblocked. At least 4.5 of those 5.5 TFL came on unblocked plays. He's going to be a bust depending on how high he goes. He's not even close to Gaines Adams and Adams was just as raw. Sapp could be an excellent role player, but a starter? Have yet to see that.

[Thumper]

I'm trying to make a mock and I'm noticing the crazy amount of talented defensive ends, there are so many of them it is insane.

There is Greg Hardy, Brandon Graham, Corey Wootton, Everson Griffen, Jerry Hughes, Derrick Morgan, Jason Worilds, Ricky Sapp, Jason Pierre-Paul, Jeremy Beal, Von Miller, O'Brien Schofield, Lindsey Witten and Greg Romeus.

Insane, and that doesn't even include 3-4 OLB's like Eric Norwood and Sergio Kindle who should go in round 1.

[etk]

I'm trying to make a mock and I'm noticing the crazy amount of talented defensive ends, there are so many of them it is insane.

There is Greg Hardy, Brandon Graham, Corey Wootton, Everson Griffen, Jerry Hughes, Derrick Morgan, Jason Worilds, Ricky Sapp, Jason Pierre-Paul, Jeremy Beal, Von Miller, O'Brien Schofield, Lindsey Witten and Greg Romeus.

Insane, and that doesn't even include 3-4 OLB's like Eric Norwood and Sergio Kindle who should go in round 1.

All those guys you listed (who I've seen) are very good....not just "names" (see - Carlos Dunlap) either.

[Thumper]

All those guys you listed (who I've seen) are very good....not just "names" (see - Carlos Dunlap) either.

Carlos Dunlap is the second coming of Calias Campell. Dunlap is huge and he is gifted but when you're being shut down by Ciron Black you know somethings up. I've been on record multiple times on here just thrashing Dunlap. I just don't see it with him, yeah when he is doing the workouts he might light it up but on the field it just isn't there. He is slow, doesn't reach the edge, puts out little effort, is a liability in the run game, rarely gets pressure and he disappears for large segments of time. Dunlap is not good.

He'll fall just like Campell did but I don't see Dunlap being a good fit on a 3-4 defense at all, Campell was BIG he had girth and Dunlap lacks the base strength, technique and strength to play 3-4 DE effectively.

[etk]

Carlos Dunlap is the second coming of Calias Campell. Dunlap is huge and he is gifted but when you're being shut down by Ciron Black you know somethings up. I've been on record multiple times on here just thrashing Dunlap. I just don't see it with him, yeah when he is doing the workouts he might light it up but on the field it just isn't there. He is slow, doesn't reach the edge, puts out little effort, is a liability in the run game, rarely gets pressure and he disappears for large segments of time. Dunlap is not good.

He'll fall just like Campell did but I don't see Dunlap being a good fit on a 3-4 defense at all, Campell was BIG he had girth and Dunlap lacks the base strength, technique and strength to play 3-4 DE effectively.

Calais Campbell is actually a pretty good football player. He was very productive as a Soph. As a Junior he put on too much weight and struggled to rush the QB but he was still a good run stopper. Dunlap gets tossed around like a ragdoll.

Campbell is now a starting DE for Arizona and has a bunch of sacks and blocked kicks.

I agree with what you're saying about Dunlap but you're selling Campbell short....both as a draft prospect and as a current pro.

[ironman4579]

Brandon Graham's been putting in work against Penn State (but what else is new). Too bad the rest of the team is playing horrid.

And I have agreed with Dunlap being supremely overrated for a long time. He's just not that good.

[gice1212]

Anyone else feel really bad for Corey Wootton? He looks like his knee injury is really effecting him this year, I wonder if its mental or he has actually lost a step but he is clearly not the same player he was last season where he looked like one of the top D Ends in the country. Hopefully he gets it figured out.

[ironman4579]

Anyone else feel really bad for Corey Wootton? He looks like his knee injury is really effecting him this year, I wonder if its mental or he has actually lost a step but he is clearly not the same player he was last season where he looked like one of the top D Ends in the country. Hopefully he gets it figured out.

Funny thing is, he had a very good freshman season (51 tackles, 9 TFL's, 4.5 sacks, 2 INT's), then a pretty weak soph season (39 tackles, 7 TFL's, 1 sack, 1 INT).

Then he has a great junior year (42 tackles, 16 TFL's, 10 sacks, 1 INT), and now he's having a terrible senior season (so far 9 tackles, 1 TFL, 1 sack in 8 games).

Someone should take him high. He's bound to have a great rookie year. And great 3rd, 5th, 7th, and 9th year. ;)


Seriously though, I realize the knee injury has certainly slowed him and hurt his play, but I really don't think that can entirely explain his poor showing this year. Even coming off a serious knee injury, he should be playing alot better than he is. Clearly there's something more going on IMO.

[Babylon]

Watched Suh of Nebraska over the weekend (boy does their offense stink).He was his usual beastly self and lock top 5 pick. As happens you watch one guy and another guy pops up.Jared Crick is a 6-5 285lb redshirt soph and the guy is all over the field ,on one play when he and Suh were chasing down a back he looked faster than the AA tackle. Looks like a natural 3-4 DE at the next level, possibly in 2011.

[draftguru151]

Seriously though, I realize the knee injury has certainly slowed him and hurt his play, but I really don't think that can entirely explain his poor showing this year. Even coming off a serious knee injury, he should be playing alot better than he is. Clearly there's something more going on IMO.

He's had an injured ankle the last couple weeks.

[ironman4579]

He's had an injured ankle the last couple weeks.

I know, but he really hasn't looked like anywhere near the same player as last year, knee and ankle injury or not.

That said, his potential is still great, and if/when he regains his form, he should be a good/great NFL DE.

Or at least every other year ;)

[SenorGato]

Vince Oghobaase and Suh >> Cameron Heyward

I like Heyward and I've been a fan since he was a starting freshman. That said, they're bigger. He's a solid 2nd round pick right now, with a chance to go higher depending on alot of things.

Oghobaase isn't getting enough hype yet. It'll be big in the offseason come Senior Bowl time and then combine, but I say start it now. He's a prototype 4-3 DT/NT (tall, rangy, hard to block with a single man, can play pass and run equally well...etc.) making him a prototypical 3-4 DE. His ability to maintain 2 gaps allows him to take snaps at 3-4 NT also. Plus he's a senior at an top academic program with multiple citations to high character and discipline.

He could be the first 3-4 DE taken easily and it would not shock me.

[killa3312]

Lost amongst all the Dunlap trashing is that he had a really good game on Saturday and now has 6 sacks on the season (ESPN has him at 5, but he's had two half sacks and ESPN doesn't count them). If he can finish off the season strong, he's still going to go high in the draft.

[P-L]

Lost amongst all the Dunlap trashing is that he had a really good game on Saturday and now has 6 sacks on the season (ESPN has him at 5, but he's had two half sacks and ESPN doesn't count them). If he can finish off the season strong, he's still going to go high in the draft.
The NCAA's official site does count half sacks, and they also say he's had five solo sacks and zero half sacks.

http://web1.ncaa.org/mfb/playerDetail.jsp?yr=2009&org=235&player=8

[murdamal86]

Lost amongst all the Dunlap trashing is that he had a really good game on Saturday and now has 6 sacks on the season (ESPN has him at 5, but he's had two half sacks and ESPN doesn't count them). If he can finish off the season strong, he's still going to go high in the draft.

I watched that game and to be honest with you, he had a solid outing that game and the sacks were coverage sacks fwiw

[BigBanger]

Vince Oghobaase and Suh >> Cameron Heyward

I like Heyward and I've been a fan since he was a starting freshman. That said, they're bigger. He's a solid 2nd round pick right now, with a chance to go higher depending on alot of things.

Oghobaase isn't getting enough hype yet. It'll be big in the offseason come Senior Bowl time and then combine, but I say start it now. He's a prototype 4-3 DT/NT (tall, rangy, hard to block with a single man, can play pass and run equally well...etc.) making him a prototypical 3-4 DE. His ability to maintain 2 gaps allows him to take snaps at 3-4 NT also. Plus he's a senior at an top academic program with multiple citations to high character and discipline.

He could be the first 3-4 DE taken easily and it would not shock me.
I really don't get all the talk with Oghobaase. Does he have potential to be a future starter? Yeah, sure, but he's far from a first round pick. Even if he does end up starting he wont be anything close to an above average starter. He has poor pad level and some bad footwork. His size might be more of an issue than a strength since he will often times get jacked up and play with very poor leverage.

He's not explosive, isn't very stout at the point, doesn't make many plays at the LOS, is a bit of a project... I don't know.

He's not anywhere close to Arthur Jones and I'll take Haywerd over him any day of the week. Haywerd is a much better athlete, has an incredible motor and plays with better leverage, technique and is more fluid in his hips and torso (Big O looks a little stiff at times). Oghobaase might have more potential due to his size (he has room to add a lot of weight to that frame), but I think its less likely he realizes his full potential compared to a guy like Haywerd, who is already much closer to realizing that and since he has that work ethic and already shows signs of play with good technique, I think with NFL coaches, he'll only improve (safer pick IMO). Is Haywerd going to be dominate? I don't see that, but I think he could be a very good player at the next level gives you 100% each and every play he's in there.

The NCAA's official site does count half sacks, and they also say he's had five solo sacks and zero half sacks.

http://web1.ncaa.org/mfb/playerDetail.jsp?yr=2009&org=235&player=8
The site counts half sacks. Vince Oghobaase is credited for 0.5 Sack on the season.

[holt_bruce81]

I know he's only a freshman, but Aldon Smith is a future 1st round draft pick. The dude is an absolute terror in the backfield.......Him and Sean Weatherspoon were the only two players on Missouri's defense that looked like they belonged on the same field with Texas. Aldon had 11 tackles, 2 sacks and 4 Tackles for loss that game.

http://image3.examiner.com/images/blog/EXID1431/images/aldon.jpg

45 tackles, 8 sacks, 5 pass breakups, 1 FF, 1 FR

[ChildPlease]

Dunlap looked really good today against UGA. Made a sack on a play when he was triple teamed. Was getting consistent pressure all game and looked very good in run support. Hopefully he keeps it up.

[SenorGato]

I really don't get all the talk with Oghobaase. Does he have potential to be a future starter? Yeah, sure, but he's far from a first round pick. Even if he does end up starting he wont be anything close to an above average starter. He has poor pad level and some bad footwork. His size might be more of an issue than a strength since he will often times get jacked up and play with very poor leverage.

He's not explosive, isn't very stout at the point, doesn't make many plays at the LOS, is a bit of a project... I don't know.

He's not anywhere close to Arthur Jones and I'll take Haywerd over him any day of the week. Haywerd is a much better athlete, has an incredible motor and plays with better leverage, technique and is more fluid in his hips and torso (Big O looks a little stiff at times). Oghobaase might have more potential due to his size (he has room to add a lot of weight to that frame), but I think its less likely he realizes his full potential compared to a guy like Haywerd, who is already much closer to realizing that and since he has that work ethic and already shows signs of play with good technique, I think with NFL coaches, he'll only improve (safer pick IMO). Is Haywerd going to be dominate? I don't see that, but I think he could be a very good player at the next level gives you 100% each and every play he's in there.


The site counts half sacks. Vince Oghobaase is credited for 0.5 Sack on the season.

We talking the same Oghobaase?

The guy I'm talking about plays with technique and leverage, consistently takes on double teams, and does make plays even if he hasn't made plays this year.

I think he and Jones are close because Jones is more explosive while VO is more stout. Heyward I like in his own right, and don't expect him to come out this year anyway.

[Saints-Tigers]

How many Oghobaase do you know? :D

[Babylon]

Dunlap looked really good today against UGA. Made a sack on a play when he was triple teamed. Was getting consistent pressure all game and looked very good in run support. Hopefully he keeps it up.

I wouldnt go that far, not sure if he had more than the one sack but the tackle was supposed to get help from the guard and didnt. In the context of a top 10 pick in the draft i think he's overrated. Put him in the DHB/Taylor Mays category, guys that look good getting off the bus but the play doesnt match the hype.

[Saints-Tigers]

I wouldnt go that far, not sure if he had more than the one sack but the tackle was supposed to get help from the guard and didnt. In the context of a top 10 pick in the draft i think he's overrated. Put him in the DHB/Taylor Mays category, guys that look good getting off the bus but the play doesnt match the hype.

Dunlap at least has some flashes of dominance, and some really big performances in big games.

9.5 sacks as a sophomore, defensive MVP in the title game... On pace for 10 sacks or so.

How much his production means is up for debate I suppose, but he could end with double digit sacks, and for a defensive end on a championship squad, that's not too bad, we are still waiting for Mays and DHB to show us anything.

[RaiderNation]

I personaly think Griffin is going to be the best DE this year. Has the size and speed to be a great impact player. Could be a SLB in some schemes or OLB in a 3-4. This guy is special

[Saints-Tigers]

Yea, I really like Griffen as well, he's got that short squatty look to him like Dwight Freeney, with big time explosion.

[ToldLikeItIs]

Adrian Clayborn: 7 tackles, .5 sack, 1.5 TFL, 2 QBH

Updated Season: 39 tackles, 6.5 sacks, 3 FF, 9 QBH, 1 PBU, 1 Punt Return TD, 11 TFL

[SenorGato]

How many Oghobaase do you know? :D

There's the guy that plays for the Blue Devils or something.

Really nice upside with prototypical size and alot of polish/nice resume. Better at penetrating than his stats show (this year at least) this year. I also think that his play this year isn't really represented by stats because of this and that.

Big riser come Senior Bowl time.

:D

[BigBanger]

We talking the same Oghobaase?

The guy I'm talking about plays with technique and leverage, consistently takes on double teams, and does make plays even if he hasn't made plays this year.

I think he and Jones are close because Jones is more explosive while VO is more stout. Heyward I like in his own right, and don't expect him to come out this year anyway.
I haven't seen enough games to give a full endorsement either way, but I didn't see the good technique or leverage you are talking about, and that is usually something you see right away. It's not like one week you see a guy playing with bad technique and the next he's a technician, it does happen though, but only in limited cases... such as Brian Bulaga dominating the DE from Arkansas State or some **** team like that, showing excellent quickness and technique, then getting absolutely picked apart by Brandon Graham the very next week, which caused his technique to go out the door since he was facing an opponent with better quickness and athleticism (not to mention some phenomenal technique).

I definitely don't see the quickness off the snap to be a disruptor. I think he'll have to develop into a two gap 34 DE. He still goes hot and cold too much and disappears way too often. The great leverage and a good enough burst off the line makes me think he can become a complete DE.

I really like Everson Griffen since he has the strength, size, athleticism and technique to be a franchise caliber DE in your base 43.

I also like Brandon Graham and his phone booth quickness, great technique and leverage. He doesn't have great size and might struggle against the run more at the next level than he does now, but his motor and technique is more than enough to get him by.

Then I like Adrian Clayborn, who I see as a more dominate 34 DE prospect (and very similar as well), as Tyson Jackson. Really impressive hands and strength in his upper body, holds the POA and can be an excellent two gap player. Size is great, but he lacks the explosiveness of a top end prospect.

Then there's Derek Morgan who's not nearly as well schooled as my top 3, but his potential, with his size, speed and quickness off the edge, could him drafted higher than most, if not all of these guy, based on his potential to be a double digit sack artist. He's very fluid in the hips and a natural pass rusher, but he's fairly weak at the POA and needs to make some improvements against the run. Not to mention his conditioning being a major problem. When CJ Spiller is blocking you one-on-one, then you need to get off the field.

[trojanbrutha]

Brandon Lang for DE/OLB for me. Dude is a serious pass rusher from a team that has two of the best in the business.

The other bookend is Cameron Sheffield...he's listed as an OLB on this and a few other sites, but currently a DE in the 4-2-5...David McDowell is a SAM LB that brings the wood...

[SenorGato]

]I haven't seen enough games to give a full endorsement either way, but I didn't see the good technique or leverage you are talking about, and that is usually something you see right away. It's not like one week you see a guy playing with bad technique and the next he's a technician, it does happen though, but only in limited cases... such as Brian Bulaga dominating the DE from Arkansas State or some **** team like that, showing excellent quickness and technique, then getting absolutely picked apart by Brandon Graham the very next week, which caused his technique to go out the door since he was facing an opponent with better quickness and athleticism (not to mention some phenomenal technique).

I've seen a decent amount as he happens to be my second favorite player in this draft after Greg Hardy. Agreed that technique and leverage are somewhat inconsistent, but much of that can be attributed to him literally being the only player on their DL that really has to be accounted for. Despite all that, he's still a force against the run and even in a stat short year he's been in the backfield quite often. Basically, I think his technique and leverage are affected by the fact that he's the only high end college DT on a decent, perhaps up and coming program. It's also a knock that many DT's get coming out of school, because lets face it...technique isn't the first thing on a 22 year old players mind. Even then I think VO has shown a nice understanding of the nuances of being a DT.

Also, at this point I think his ability to 2-gap should go unquestioned but for whatever reason it isn't. I don't think any team single blocks Oghobaase. Maybe that's selective memory on my part. I've also heard from a pretty reliable guy "in the biz" that that's a skill scouts think he has down.

I definitely don't see the quickness off the snap to be a disruptor. I think he'll have to develop into a two gap 34 DE. He still goes hot and cold too much and disappears way too often. The great leverage and a good enough burst off the line makes me think he can become a complete DE.

The quickness isn't anything special, but I really don't see it as a negative either. Especially if you combine it with his size, length, and (in what seems to be only my opinion) technique. If you watch VO play, you can see that he knows the position of defensive tackle, even if the numbers and hype aren't there to back it this year....sorry for going on repeat with that point.

I do like his upside more as a 3-4 DE than a DT, but if the right team takes him in a 4-3 he'd do fine. I know the Jaguars or Titans would love to have a guy like him. The fact that he's got room to add weight certainly doesn't hurt him.

All that said, I do realize his grade is more 2-3 than 1 right now. I think that will change come Senior Bowl season.

I really like Everson Griffen since he has the strength, size, athleticism and technique to be a franchise caliber DE in your base 43.

I also like Brandon Graham and his phone booth quickness, great technique and leverage. He doesn't have great size and might struggle against the run more at the next level than he does now, but his motor and technique is more than enough to get him by.

Excellent prospects both of them...I think they're versatile and athletic enough to play in either a 4-3 or 3-4. Meeeeeanest mofos on the field.

Then I like Adrian Clayborn, who I see as a more dominate 34 DE prospect (and very similar as well), as Tyson Jackson. Really impressive hands and strength in his upper body, holds the POA and can be an excellent two gap player. Size is great, but he lacks the explosiveness of a top end prospect.

I like Clayborn. That said, I'm a prototype guy myself and he's the kind of DT/DE prospect that will go in round 3-4 come real draft day. Doesn't mean he's not a player or that he lacks starting potential, it's that the size is average. I'd gladly take him for a 3-4 rotation though...your classic "overachiever," but I f'n hate that word. There's no such thing.

[Babylon]

Jared Crick, RSoph for Nebraska. Another ho-hum day on saturday with 4 sacks. Keep in mind it's Baylor he was going against and there is a guy next to him named SUH but he looks better right now to me than Adam Carriker who was a 1st round pick.

[etk]

Yea, I really like Griffen as well, he's got that short squatty look to him like Dwight Freeney, with big time explosion.

Brandon Graham has that same look.

Notice a trend with the LaMarr Woodley, Freeney and Dumervil types?

Give me a short, squatty explosive pass rusher with a motor over a Gaines Adams/Jarvis Moss type any day.

[GhostDeini]

I'm feeling that trend. Look out for Marcus Robinson next year. He's 6'1-6'2 235-240 type pure pass rusher with good upside.

[etk]

I'm feeling that trend. Look out for Marcus Robinson next year. He's 6'1-6'2 235-240 type pure pass rusher with good upside.

3 sacks so far this year.

Marcus is an NFL talent but he needs to start producing. We had no edge rush against WF.

He will benefit from 4 full years. At this point he's a poor man's Jason Worilds.

[SenorGato]

Brandon Graham has that same look.

Notice a trend with the LaMarr Woodley, Freeney and Dumervil types?

Give me a short, squatty explosive pass rusher with a motor over a Gaines Adams/Jarvis Moss type any day.

I think it's the attitudes. Some guys just want to do more things than rush the passers. They're usually the meanest playing, most athletic players on their D too. They want to do well in everything so that they can play more, and do big things.

At least that's what the good ones do. That's why I really like Greg Hardy at OLB too, despite him being taller than those guys at 6'4 maybe 6'5.

[ElectricEye]

Brandon Graham has that same look.

Notice a trend with the LaMarr Woodley, Freeney and Dumervil types?

Give me a short, squatty explosive pass rusher with a motor over a Gaines Adams/Jarvis Moss type any day.

Bill Belichick has yet to figure this out and it hurts us every year.

Actually, he's yet to figure out pass rushers are important.

[BigBanger]

Dexter Davis absolutely dominated Charles Brown. I think Davis is a little underrated (I'm curious as to what his official height and weight is going to be) and I think Charles Brown is a little overrated (Extremely raw and plays like a ***** sometimes).

[Saints-Tigers]

Brandon Graham has that same look.

Notice a trend with the LaMarr Woodley, Freeney and Dumervil types?

Give me a short, squatty explosive pass rusher with a motor over a Gaines Adams/Jarvis Moss type any day.

I agree, I've never seen the appeal of having super tall guys, especially if the short guys have long arms.

Leverage and getting low> arm length.

[GoBroncos]

Jeremy Beal is one to keep an eye on. He is undersized, but plays his position well. Look for him to go in the 3rd or 4th round.

50 Tackles 14.5 TFL 9.5 sacks.

[etk]

I agree, I've never seen the appeal of having super tall guys, especially if the short guys have long arms.

Leverage and getting low> arm length.

Shorter, stockier pass rushers are more agile and better at bending and contorting their bodies to get around blockers. This is an underrated quality.

[Brondeman]

I know he's only a freshman, but Aldon Smith is a future 1st round draft pick. The dude is an absolute terror in the backfield.......Him and Sean Weatherspoon were the only two players on Missouri's defense that looked like they belonged on the same field with Texas. Aldon had 11 tackles, 2 sacks and 4 Tackles for loss that game.

45 tackles, 8 sacks, 5 pass breakups, 1 FF, 1 FR

Aldon Smith has had a MONSTER season. He's already better than the top prospects listed. He's a better tackler and he gets more force against premier tackles. The best thing about Smith is that he would be a fast OLB if he played that position. I watched him one game where he got caught up in the line on a sweep and it basically turned into a foot race to the edge. Not only did Smith outrun his own LBer, he caught up to the RB and made the tackle for a small gain. He's the total package.

[Supporting Caste]

Adrian Clayborn: 7 tackles, .5 sack, 1.5 TFL, 2 QBH

Updated Season: 39 tackles, 6.5 sacks, 3 FF, 9 QBH, 1 PBU, 1 Punt Return TD, 11 TFL

I really like Clayborn.

I don't know where I'd project in him the draft because I can't really get a good idea of how athletic/big he actually is, but I love the way he plays.

I'm still baffled at how little attention O'Brien Schofield is getting. His ranking on NFLDC is just laughable.

[Unbiased]

I apologize if he's already been mentioned, but Ryan Kerrigan of Purdue is a guy that should be on people's radars.

He's 6'4" 264 lbs and has 10 sacks on the year already. 16.5 TFL. He's a junior so I'm not sure if he'll come out.

[Thumper]

Well this is certainly not good for Greg Hardy. (http://sports.espn.go.com/ncf/news/story?id=4645940) He broke his wrist and will not finish the season, this will do nothing to silence critics claiming he is too fragile.

[phlysac]

Still not enough love, nationally, or on this site for Greg Romeus.

[Todd Bertuzzi]

Well this is certainly not good for Greg Hardy. (http://sports.espn.go.com/ncf/news/story?id=4645940) He broke his wrist and will not finish the season, this will do nothing to silence critics claiming he is too fragile.

Hardy to the Eagles!!!!!

Between him and Abiamiri we may have a full season at LE.

[P-L]

Still not enough love, nationally, or on this site for Greg Romeus.
There are just so many great defensive lineman that it is too difficult to love them all.

[Todd Bertuzzi]

Still not enough love, nationally, or on this site for Greg Romeus.

Next year there will be.

[Race for the Heisman]

Jabaal Sheard is having a pretty solid game against Notre Dame, too. The entirety of Pitt's front four is pretty solid, although Sheard and Romeus are the more legit prospects IMO, while a guy like Mick Williams is probably more of a Mitch King kind of prospect.

[Staubach12]

Well this is certainly not good for Greg Hardy. (http://sports.espn.go.com/ncf/news/story?id=4645940) He broke his wrist and will not finish the season, this will do nothing to silence critics claiming he is too fragile.

Count me as one of those critics. He's fragile and there are times when he is simply a non-factor. That kind of inconsistency is an even bigger problem.

[SenorGato]

Quinn from UNC looks special. I recorded Miami vs. NC and 5 minutes in he's already flashed twice.

[ToldLikeItIs]

Clayborn against Ohio State

12 tackles, 3 TFL, 1 sack, 3 QBH

Updated year:

51 tackles, 7.5 sacks, 3 FF, 12 QBH, 1 PBU, 1 Punt Return TD, 14 TFL

[Unbiased]

Quinn from UNC looks special. I recorded Miami vs. NC and 5 minutes in he's already flashed twice.

That entire defensive line at UNC is ridiculous. I really like EJ Wilson.

[tjsunstein]

Is Carlos Dunlap overrated? Is he still considered a Top 5 pick? What's the consensus?

[bigbuc]

In my book... Dunlap is the most overrated player in the draft.

[BeerBaron]

In my book... Dunlap is the most overrated player in the draft.

Reminds me of Michael Johnson's situation a year ago...

Also, I think Jerry Hughes would make a dominant 3-4 OLB with the success of other shorter, stockier guys at the position like Harrison and Dumervil. I remember hearing that argument that they are better off being a little shorter a while ago and reading up on Hughes, I think he's in that mold. Just my $0.02.

[Babylon]

Is Carlos Dunlap overrated? Is he still considered a Top 5 pick? What's the consensus?

He's a top 5 pick getting off the bus but not on the field. Someone will take him earlier than he should be picked and he probably has some versatility but he looks a bit overrated to me.

[CC.SD]

In my book... Dunlap is the most overrated player in the draft.

That's Okung IMO.

[Cicero]

Is Carlos Dunlap overrated? Is he still considered a Top 5 pick? What's the consensus?

If the Raiders are picking in the top 5 and he's the workout warrior Al Davis likes the most then he might be. Otherwise definitely not. I definitely don't think he's a first round pick.

[Todd Bertuzzi]

Reminds me of Michael Johnson's situation a year ago...

That's how I see it as well.

[DeathbyStat]

Reminds me of Michael Johnson's situation a year ago...

Also, I think Jerry Hughes would make a dominant 3-4 OLB with the success of other shorter, stockier guys at the position like Harrison and Dumervil. I remember hearing that argument that they are better off being a little shorter a while ago and reading up on Hughes, I think he's in that mold. Just my $0.02.


Yes Dunlap is getting the same rep as Johnson last year...a physical freak that doesn't play hard

The reason shorter guys like Harrison and Dumerville can get by is because they can get lower and get better leverage

[DeathbyStat]

If the Raiders are picking in the top 5 and he's the workout warrior Al Davis likes the most then he might be. Otherwise definitely not. I definitely don't think he's a first round pick.

I think its dunlap or mays for Al...both tremnendous workouts

[etk]

Reminds me of Michael Johnson's situation a year ago...


Nope.

Someone else said this already, but Michael Johnson actually looks explosive, agile, fluid and just overall athletic when he's on the field. He's also built very impressively with a strong upper body and trunk. He's a natural knee-bender. People also forget that Johnson had solid production as a Senior. He should've been completely dominant, but he still produced quite a bit. He never deserved to fall all the way to the 3rd, but he got such a bad rap in the draft media that everyone seemed to jump on the bandwagon and ignore him without any critical assessment.

Dunlap's workout numbers might look nice on a sheet, but he doesn't even look athletic on the field. His quickness, speed and agility are limited. He has no upper body strength and gets pushed around. His body is disproportionate and he's not a natural knee bender.

To me, Dunlap is massively overrated simply because he's not the athlete he's made out to be. I don't think he's a underachiever or poor worker, I just think he doesn't have the ability that people assume he has.

I wouldn't even think about drafting him until the 5th round.

[ToldLikeItIs]

What round does Adrian Clayborn get drafted if he decides to go pro this year?

[espnhatesthe49ers]

One thing to note about Carlos Dunlap is Florida runs a 3-3-5. Meaning Dunlap's not an edge rusher and the scheme isn't meant for him to put up monsterous sack numbers.

[Sniper]

Michigan runs a 3-4, and Brandon Graham's still putting up numbers.

[superman8456]

Clifton Geathers is a beast. I wonder if he declares.

[espnhatesthe49ers]

Michigan runs a 3-4, and Brandon Graham's still putting up numbers.

Graham 8 sacks
Dunlap 6 sacks

[Sniper]

Graham 8 sacks
Dunlap 6 sacks

Graham 8.5 sacks.

Graham 21 TFL before today
Dunlap 8.0 TFL before today

[Babylon]

Graham 8.5 sacks.

Graham 21 TFL before today
Dunlap 8.0 TFL before today

Dunlap probably will have several today, them and Bama conviently playing cupcakes.

[Sniper]

Graham's got two TFL and a sack so far.

[Babylon]

Graham's got two TFL and a sack so far.

I know it's a cliche but that tackle right there on Pryor probably made Graham some money (more money).

[espnhatesthe49ers]

Graham 8.5 sacks.

Graham 21 TFL before today
Dunlap 8.0 TFL before today

Florida's got more talent around and a superior run defense. Michigan's got 100 extra rushing attempts than Florida and has allowed 2x as many yards.

Take nothing away from Graham he is the best defensive end in the country, but I think part of Dunlap's problem is the system isn't geared for him.

[Sniper]

Florida's got more talent around and a superior run defense. Michigan's got 100 extra rushing attempts than Florida and has allowed 2x as many yards.

Take nothing away from Graham he is the best defensive end in the country, but I think part of Dunlap's problem is the system isn't geared for him.

And he's just not good. He's athletic, whoopty-*******-do. He's garbage in run defense, undisciplined, and doesn't play as big as his measurables.

[ironman4579]

Brandon Graham finished up with 6 tackles, 4 TFL's, a sack, and gave everything he had, just like every game.

For the season 63 tackles, 25 TFL's, 9.5 sacks, 2 FF's, and 2 blocked punts. One of the best defensive players to ever play at Michigan IMO, and he deserved so much more than the last two seasons.

I'm venting of course, but I feel terrible for the guy. I hope Michigan's struggles don't keep him from being the first team All American he deserves to be. If this guy doesn't go in the first round, something is wrong.

Scott, you need to realize that Brandon Graham is miles ahead of guys like Ricky Sapp as a player and as a prospect. There's no way he's only the 4th best senior DE prospect.

[ThePudge]

I'm a firm believer after taking that closer look today, that Brandon Graham will be a Top 15 selection in April. He's one of the best defensive players in college football. A top 3-4 OLB prospect that I'm confident will tear up the Senior Bowl and only improve his stock at the Combine.

[descendency]

Anyone have any tape on Alex Carrington? (DE at Arkansas State)

[SenorGato]

Brandon Graham finished up with 6 tackles, 4 TFL's, a sack, and gave everything he had, just like every game.

For the season 63 tackles, 25 TFL's, 9.5 sacks, 2 FF's, and 2 blocked punts. One of the best defensive players to ever play at Michigan IMO, and he deserved so much more than the last two seasons.

I'm venting of course, but I feel terrible for the guy. I hope Michigan's struggles don't keep him from being the first team All American he deserves to be. If this guy doesn't go in the first round, something is wrong.

Scott, you need to realize that Brandon Graham is miles ahead of guys like Ricky Sapp as a player and as a prospect. There's no way he's only the 4th best senior DE prospect.

Graham passed Hardy as my best DE recently. Hardy is still a high end talent, but health is an issue. I'd still gladly take him in the first.

Graham is basically healthy Hardy.

I think both should go in the first 20 picks, and are steals outside of there.

[murdamal86]

And he's just not good. He's athletic, whoopty-*******-do. He's garbage in run defense, undisciplined, and doesn't play as big as his measurables.

show your work

[Sniper]

show your work

1.5 non-sack TFL. For 6'6", 290 lbs, he's a huge *****. He should be ******* manhandling OTs. He's nowhere near that. He consistently takes awful angles in run defense and consistently vacates his run assignment so he can go try (and likely fail) to kill the QB.

Seriously...1.5 non-sack TFL. That's embarrassing.

[Hines]

I think Graham will fall the way Woodley fell. Whoever drafts Graham will be getting one hell of a player.

[foozball]

I think Graham will fall the way Woodley fell. Whoever drafts Graham will be getting one hell of a player.

I don't see it. I think he goes middle of round 1 with the amount of 3-4 teams in that area. Denver, Jets, Dolphins, 49ers, Packers, and Ravens will all be picking in the 12-20 range. I think he goes somewhere in there.

[Hines]

I don't see it. I think he goes middle of round 1 with the amount of 3-4 teams in that area. Denver, Jets, Dolphins, 49ers, Packers, and Ravens will all be picking in the 12-20 range. I think he goes somewhere in there.

IMO, Denver has more needs than a OLB, Dolphins could use a OLB, but need a true number 1 wide reciever, Niners could use one, Packers need offensive line, and Ravnes need a reciever or corner. People thought Woodley wouldn't drop either and he did. I hope Graham goes high, but it would not surprise me if he falls like Woodley did.

[phlysac]

Woodley's success makes me believe it is LESS likely that Graham will slide in a similar fashion.

[etk]

show your work

Umm....or you can watch Florida play and witness Dunlap getting blown off the ball and thrown around for yourself. Stats don't describe just how weak Dunlap is against the run.

My favorite was when he got pancaked by a RB/WR (forget who) in the NC last year.

[RaiderNation]

show your work

Have you ever watched Florida play? Only thing this guy does consistantly is hit down balls at the line. The simply gets man handled in the running game even if he is 6'6 290 with 4.6 speed. His pass rush isnt great either.

[etk]

Have you ever watched Florida play? Only thing this guy does consistantly is hit down balls at the line. The simply gets man handled in the running game even if he is 6'6 290 with 4.6 speed. His pass rush isnt great either.

He's a Gator fan....sorry homer. So he has seen him play, just not objectively.

[Hurricanes25]

Bottom line on Dunlap- Scouts will love him, coaches will not.

[Cigaro]

Clifton Geathers is a beast. I wonder if he declares.

lol why? Only reason would be he really hates it here. He had a great performance versus Florida, the first really true standout performance he's had. In fact, he's not even a regular starter. He most certainly needs to stay in school.

[RaiderNation]

mI4hZ9GiToQ

[ThePudge]

There's a guy that not many here have talked about or acknowledged, and that's Murray State's Austen Lane. The 6'6 258 DE is athletic, productive, long-limbed, effective against the run & as a pass rusher, and appears destined to be one of the first small school players drafted in April. I haven't gotten hold of any film on the guy, but I've looked at a number of different resources and I like what I see. I can't really have too much of a true opinion on him yet, as I haven't seen him play, but I look forward to tracking him at his Post-Season All-Star practices and at the NFL Combine.

He has a lot of tools and is a very good player already, so we'll see what happens. Just a name for everyone, Scott's #20 ranked Senior DE, Murray State's Austen Lane.

Lane is two time Ohio Valley Conference first team, and recently locked up the Ohio Valley Defensive Player of the Year after finishing with 64 Tackles, 19.5 TFL, 11 Sacks, an Int that he returned 21 yards for a Td, and 3 FF. Level of Competition is low, but Lane looks like he could be the real deal.

[descendency]

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/272406-austen-lane-is-on-the-right-road-to-nfl-stardom

Very interesting report on Austen Lane. If his 6.67 scouting report is right, that'd put him somewhere in the late second to mid 3rd. The interesting question will be how much weight can he put on and how much power does he have.

On one hand, you have a guy who is basically too big to be an effective OLB in a 34 and will likely have to play 43 DE (although the article seems to suggest he could drop into coverage), but on the other hand, if he could weigh in at 290, he could play DE in the 34 defense. That would significantly increase his draft stock in my opinion.

Regardless, I can't see a 43 team passing on him in the late second, early 3rd.

[Supporting Caste]

The most important DEs in this draft are in the Big Ten, IMO.

[Big Black]

IMO Dunlap is overrated.

Derrick Morgan from Georgia Tech has to be the best DE prospect who isn't getting the type of pub and love that he should be getting. Morgan has 50tk 17tfl and 12.5 sacks on the season. That's great production across the board.

Dunlap in comparison has 36tk 9tfl and 7.5 sacks. Take away his performance against Mississippi State and you've got very little production from a guy that should have had a big year. Dunlap's living off of hype and potential from what he did the year before.

[ThePudge]

IMO Dunlap is overrated.

Derrick Morgan from Georgia Tech has to be the best DE prospect who isn't getting the type of pub and love that he should be getting. Morgan has 50tk 17tfl and 12.5 sacks on the season. That's great production across the board.

Dunlap in comparison has 36tk 9tfl and 7.5 sacks. Take away his performance against Mississippi State and you've got very little production from a guy that should have had a big year. Dunlap's living off of hype and potential from what he did the year before.

I agree with you. Dunlap is overrated at the national scale and Morgan is very underrated. Still, for draftniks, Derrick Morgan's no new story. IMO, he's a Top 10 pick in April and a fantastic 4-3 DE prospect by all means. He was #6 on my last Big Board.

[TACKLE]

I agree with you. Dunlap is overrated at the national scale and Morgan is very underrated. Still, for draftniks, Derrick Morgan's no new story. IMO, he's a Top 10 pick in April and a fantastic 4-3 DE prospect by all means. He was #6 on my last Big Board.

I could definitely see that. I like Morgan more than I liked Derrick Harvery. Although Harvey may have been a bit more fluid as an athlete, Morgan is more productive, is stronger, has a better motor and a better repertoire of pass rush moves.

Also, Jerry Hughes is ridiculously good. One of the most dominant pass rushers I've seen at the college level. I don't care what his 40 his, he speed of the edge is nasty. He will be a great pass rusher at the next level. I just pray that some team doesn't try to make a 4-3 OLB. It killed me when the Bengals did that to David Pollack. If a guy is gifted at rushing the passer and getting after the QB, let him do what he does best.

[Race for the Heisman]

The most important DEs in this draft are in the Big Ten, IMO.

Not necessarily disagreeing with you, but could you qualify 'most important?'

[Big Black]

I agree with you. Dunlap is overrated at the national scale and Morgan is very underrated. Still, for draftniks, Derrick Morgan's no new story. IMO, he's a Top 10 pick in April and a fantastic 4-3 DE prospect by all means. He was #6 on my last Big Board.

Morgan is the antithesis of Michael Johnson. Johnson may be a better athlete, but he's got nothing on Morgan in terms of hustle, leverage and production.

I could definitely see Morgan jump into the top 10 in a weak DE class if he shows well in private workouts and the Combine.

[Big Black]

Not necessarily disagreeing with you, but could you qualify 'most important?'

He's talking about overrated players like Corey Wooten, Cameron Heyward and undersized guys like Brandon Graham who will most likely be a 3-4 OLB. The only guy of value IMO is Greg Romeus and he's a borderline 1st round pick at this point.

[ThePudge]

He's talking about overrated players like Corey Wooten, Cameron Heyward and undersized guys like Brandon Graham who will most likely be a 3-4 OLB. The only guy of value IMO is Greg Romeus and he's a borderline 1st round pick at this point.

Cameron Heyward is not overrated unless you think he's considered a Top 10 guy, and Greg Romeus plays in the Big East (Pittsburgh). Adrian Clayborn from Iowa is another potential first round pick with a lot of versatility. Brandon Graham is a potential Top 15 talent.

Thaddeus Gibson will likely be an OLB at the next level, but is still a Big 10 DE right now.

[superman8456]

Also, Jerry Hughes is ridiculously good. One of the most dominant pass rushers I've seen at the college level. I don't care what his 40 his, he speed of the edge is nasty. He will be a great pass rusher at the next level. I just pray that some team doesn't try to make a 4-3 OLB. It killed me when the Bengals did that to David Pollack. If a guy is gifted at rushing the passer and getting after the QB, let him do what he does best.

Moving Hughes to OLB is risky, like it is with all player moves, but it could pay off ten fold for the team drafting him.

[Sniper]

He's talking about overrated players like Corey Wooten, Cameron Heyward and undersized guys like Brandon Graham who will most likely be a 3-4 OLB. The only guy of value IMO is Greg Romeus and he's a borderline 1st round pick at this point.

Greg Romeus plays in the Big East. Also, please explain why Cam Heyward is overrated. He's big, strong, quick, fast and can move inside on passing downs.

Also, re: Graham. Who gives a **** if he's not ideal size? Would you rather have him or prototypical-sized Carlos Dunlap?

[TACKLE]

Moving Hughes to OLB is risky, like it is with all player moves, but it could pay off ten fold for the team drafting him.

I have no problem with him as an OLB in a 3-4. I just think it would be a waster to play him as a OLB in a 4-3.

[ironman4579]

Greg Romeus plays in the Big East. Also, please explain why Cam Heyward is overrated. He's big, strong, quick, fast and can move inside on passing downs.

Also, re: Graham. Who gives a **** if he's not ideal size? Would you rather have him or prototypical-sized Carlos Dunlap?

The guy also called this a "weak DE class," when it's probably one of the strongest in recent memory in terms of depth and first round gradeable guys, so I'd take what he has to say with a grain of salt.

[Big Black]

The guy also called this a "weak DE class," when it's probably one of the strongest in recent memory in terms of depth and first round gradeable guys, so I'd take what he has to say with a grain of salt.

Romeus is Big East. My bad.

But this class is weaker than the last two years. Maybe now in hindsight they all haven't panned out as well in the pros but do you seriously think this class is stronger than Chris Long, Vernon Gholston, Derrick Harvey, Lawrence Jackson, Phillip Merling, Quentin Groves and Calais Campbell in 2008? How about Gaines Adams, Jamaal Anderson, Adam Carriker, Jarvis Moss, Tim Crowder, and Lamar Woodley in '07?

Is this class stonger with first round gradeable guys as you put it? At best there will be three guys, at worst it may just be Morgan. You never know with the draft. Just my opinion fellas.

[ironman4579]

Romeus is Big East. My bad.

But this class is weaker than the last two years. Maybe now in hindsight they all haven't panned out as well in the pros but do you seriously think this class is stronger than Chris Long, Vernon Gholston, Derrick Harvey, Lawrence Jackson, Phillip Merling, Quentin Groves and Calais Campbell in 2008? How about Gaines Adams, Jamaal Anderson, Adam Carriker, Jarvis Moss, Tim Crowder, and Lamar Woodley in '07?

Is this class stonger with first round gradeable guys as you put it? At best there will be three guys, at worst it may just be Morgan. You never know with the draft. Just my opinion fellas.

Personally, yes, I do consider it quite a bit stronger (depending on who comes out) than those classes. I was personally never high on Crowder, Moss, Carriker, Anderson, Adams, Campbell, Groves, or Harvey. I thought pretty much every one of them was overrated heading into the draft, and at the very least thought Moss, Anderson, Adams, Groves and Harvey were taken too early.

On the flip side, I did like Long, Gholston, Jackson, Merling, and Woodley (of course) alot.

[ToldLikeItIs]

You're missing DE's like Schofield (Robert Mathis type), and Jammie Kirlew, Ryan Kerrigan..

The Big Ten really is very deep in defensive ends.

[Sniper]

You're missing DE's like Schofield (Robert Mathis type), and Jammie Kirlew, Ryan Kerrigan..

The Big Ten really is very deep in defensive ends.

Truth. Graham, Clayborn, Heyward, Gibson, Wootton, Schofield, Kerrigan, Middleton are all the eligible guys that are damn good. Then, you have guys like Jack Crawford, Broderick Binns, etc... as the younger guys.

[Big Black]

Good in college versus how well the rate as a pro prospect are two different things. If you're a fan of a certain conference, I'm sure you'd be more inclined to be high on the potential of many of their players. But how they're seen in the eyes of scouts and how they'll pan out in the pros is a different story.

I'm probably not going to be making many friends by saying this, but alot of the Big Ten guys many are so high on have the majority of their stats and big plays within the conference...and speaking from a national standpoint, the Big Ten hasn't been very strong this season.

Take the four guys that were brought up, Kerrigan, Graham, Clayborn and Schofield. They collectively had 38 sacks. Impressive. But against out of conference competition, the same four guys had 9.5 sacks. Against ranked teams in the AP, they had 9.5 sacks.

That means their numbers were inflated against unranked teams within the Big Ten conference like Minnesota, Indiana, and Purdue.

Don't get me wrong. Graham is a very good player. He'll probably go in the top 20. But the conference doesn't have 'the most important DEs' and the DE class as a whole isn't a high on potential as in years past. JMHO.

[ToldLikeItIs]

Football Freakonomics?

I could get into that.

How about Clayborn against Ohio State, and Penn State?

How about all of his stats on the road?

Are NFL scouts watching out of conference powder puff games or important games in conference more closely?

Do players know this?

[Sniper]

I'm probably not going to be making many friends by saying this, but alot of the Big Ten guys many are so high on have the majority of their stats and big plays within the conference...and speaking from a national standpoint, the Big Ten hasn't been very strong this season.

Team strength =/= OL strength.

Take the four guys that were brought up, Kerrigan, Graham, Clayborn and Schofield. They collectively had 38 sacks. Impressive. But against out of conference competition, the same four guys had 9.5 sacks. Against ranked teams in the AP, they had 9.5 sacks.

How'd wunderkind Carlos Dunlap do?

That means their numbers were inflated against unranked teams within the Big Ten conference like Minnesota, Indiana, and Purdue.

Adrian Clayborn got a sack against Ohio State, Wisconsin and two against Michigan State. He also had 8 TFL in those three games. He didn't have any stats against Penn State but dominated the game and did block a punt + return it for a TD. He did not get a chance to play vs. Purdue, and padded his stats to a whopping 1.5 sacks and 3 TFL combined in games vs. Indiana and Minnesota.

O'Brien Schofield had two sacks against Ohio State. He also had four TFL vs. Fresno State in a close game.

Ryan Kerrigan had three sacks against Ohio State and 1.5 vs. Wisconsin. He had four TFL vs. OSU (basically won them the game) and 2.5 vs. UW.

Graham owned everybody.

Carlos Dunlap got half of his sacks against Mississippi State. Woooooooooooo, what a stud. A whopping 1.5 non-sack TFL. Dayummmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm. Must be those ******* amazing SEC offensive lines. :rolleyes:

[Saints-Tigers]

Must be those ******* amazing SEC offensive lines.

Good point, that's probably the reason he looks ordinary. 20+ sacks if he was in the big 2!!!!

[Sniper]

Good point, that's probably the reason he looks ordinary. 20+ sacks if he was in the big 2!!!!

I was thinking 20+ per game, but if you want to keep the expectations low, we can do that. They'd have to play all of the games in the South, though, because everyone knows you lose your speed when you go north of the Mason-Dixon line.

[Saints-Tigers]

I sense your sarcasm. No one is capable of 20+ per game. The college record is 16 in a game by Bobby Boucher.