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View Full Version : Randy Moss - Most influential football player ever?


WMD
07-15-2009, 05:19 PM
Maybe, according to Jason Whitlock.

http://www.kansascity.com/182/story/1325446.html

I don't think I'd say he's the most "influential" but I don't think anyone would have a problem saying he's one of the most freakish athletes of all time in any sport. Whitlock says he might be the most influential but he doesn't go into who or what he influenced.

What do you fellas think?

CC.SD
07-15-2009, 05:31 PM
Try "HELL NO," Whitlock has zero knowledge of the history of the game and needs to shut his mouth.

BamaFalcon59
07-15-2009, 05:33 PM
He changed how defenses covered deep passing. And that is a big part of todays game.

CC.SD
07-15-2009, 05:44 PM
He changed how defenses covered deep passing. And that is a big part of todays game.

Well without Dan Fouts and Coryell there wouldn't be deep passing as we know it, forget the defenses.

Deion turned the game into a show. Jim Brown played 1 v. 11, required more attention than Moss ever did. Fran Tarkenton redefined quarterbacking with his scrambling. Lawrence Taylor changed everything. The NFL's history is too long and too deep for a guy like Moss to even be considered for most influential.

Ness
07-15-2009, 05:49 PM
I'd say Lawrence Taylor was more influential. Because defense were actually changed in the way that they scouted for certain players.

Randy Moss I don't think changed anything that wasn't already in place. He's just a very hard player to play against. But he didn't change how receivers were necessarily drafted or scouted. I'd say Terrell Owens would be more influential that Moss was. He has/had a good mix of power and speed that honestly hasn't really been seen before and is very versatile. Moss has a lot of speed and although he is physical to a good degree, I wouldn't put him up there with Owens in that area. Other guys like Raymond Berry who perfected route running and Bob Hayes who was a known speedster made just a big an impact among wideouts in terms of transforming the game.

tjsunstein
07-15-2009, 05:52 PM
Moss'd him.

PACKmanN
07-15-2009, 05:52 PM
I think Moss brought the size factor to the game. I don't think there were many 6'4+ WR in the game before him that has his abilties; he opened a lot of eyes with that effect, imo.

ChezPower4
07-15-2009, 05:54 PM
How bout........ NO

Paranoidmoonduck
07-15-2009, 05:55 PM
He changed how defenses covered deep passing. And that is a big part of todays game.

How exactly? The NFL had been running zone defenses and deep double coverage since Bob Hayes came on the scene in the 60's.

Randy Moss is, without a doubt, the most talented wide receiver I have ever seen and ever expect to see. But influence isn't synonymous with talent anyway you define the two.

Geo
07-15-2009, 05:59 PM
Well, I suppose it could be argued (especially by Denny Green) that Moss brought back the bomb/deep ball into the league, but that's not near a cause of influence as much as it is a product of his own talents. Which can hardly be recreated, especially by scheme. Moss is the most talented receiver ever, or at least up until Calvin Johnson recently.

Rotoworld recently had the following blurb:

Randy Moss has averaged one touchdown for every 6.24 of his receptions over his 11-year career, the best TD rate in NFL history for receivers with at least 500 catches.

Moss' single-season record 23 TDs in 2007 obviously helped, but he scored at least 15 three previous times and found the end zone on 11 occasions in a "down" 2008 season.

Just noticed the OP says this is from Jason Witless. That explains a lot.

BlindSite
07-15-2009, 07:18 PM
I think Moss along with a few other wide receivers helped to revolutionise the way defenses play the game.

The most influential? No, not a chance. But a part of a positional revolution that has altered the game? Without doubt

TitleTown088
07-15-2009, 07:25 PM
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2007/sioncampus/04/30/roadtrip.fsu/p1_moss.jpg

Oh yeah.

PoopSandwich
07-15-2009, 07:56 PM
Most influential? No... Possibly the best receiver ever? Maybe.

Nalej
07-15-2009, 08:01 PM
He changed the Packers next draft after he poop'd on them his rookie year.

yo123
07-15-2009, 08:13 PM
Most influential? No... Possibly the best receiver ever? Maybe.


I still don't think he has surpassed Mr. Rice. He's going to need another 2-3 elite level seasons before we can discuss Moss vs. Rice imo.

DeathbyStat
07-15-2009, 08:20 PM
Lynn Swann was more influential

The Unseen
07-15-2009, 08:24 PM
Jason Whitlock is a sensationalist. do not listen

Brent
07-15-2009, 08:32 PM
shouldnt Jason Whitlock be doing his Stephen A. Smith impression?

vidae
07-15-2009, 10:35 PM
Jason Whitlock is an idiot. And I have to read his garbage more than most. Don't pay attention to anything he says.

neko4
07-15-2009, 10:39 PM
ummm... Don Hutson anybody? Basically invented "wide receiver"

CC.SD
07-15-2009, 11:00 PM
I still don't think he has surpassed Mr. Rice. He's going to need another 2-3 elite level seasons before we can discuss Moss vs. Rice imo.

Yah, I would say like 5 though. Do I hear 6 who can give me a six, six going once...

jth1331
07-15-2009, 11:58 PM
I kind of found it humorous that he says Randy Moss should've won the MVP award in 1998.

Terrell Davis in 1998:
2,008 yards rushing, 5.1 ypc, 21 rushing TD's
25 catches, 200+ receiving yards and 2 receiving TD's

Randy Moss in 1998:
69 catches, 1300 yards, 17 TD's

Not discrediting Moss' outstanding year, but saying Moss should've won the MVP outright in '98 is just ridiculous.

Mr.Regular
07-16-2009, 12:17 AM
He makes some really good points in that article, but I think it's a tad overkill to call him the most influential player ever. I dont even know if hes the most influential WR ever... Don Hutson has a great argument for that title.

Ness
07-16-2009, 01:54 AM
I still don't think he has surpassed Mr. Rice. He's going to need another 2-3 elite level seasons before we can discuss Moss vs. Rice imo.

Well you could discuss that comparison now. Honestly Jerry Rice isn't the most physically gifted receiver I've ever seen. He was fast, but he didn't have Moss speed. And he was physical, but Owens had more in that area. But regardless, I think Rice is still a better receiver because he was the ultimate warrior in terms of dedicating his craft. I think he only missed one or two practices his entire career (as in not show up). He was definitely the hardest working receiver I've ever seen, and a true testament to the phrase "practice makes perfect".

TACKLE
07-16-2009, 02:14 AM
Lynn Swann was more influential

Please, please, please, please, please tell me that was a joke.

killxswitch
07-16-2009, 10:01 AM
Jason Whitlock is a joke, I don't know why he is even a sports writer. He never gets anything right. His social commentary is often good, I wish he'd just do that and give up this nonsense sports column.

A Perfect Score
07-16-2009, 11:35 AM
Marshall Faulk>>>>Randy Moss as far as influence goes with modern day players.

bigbluedefense
07-16-2009, 11:37 AM
definitely not the most influential ever.

but he is without question, the most influential WR when it comes to dictating coverage the league has seen in the modern era.

More than Jerry Rice.

No WR Ive ever seen has impacted and changed a defense's strategy and coverage schemes the way Randy Moss does. No WR opens up the field for his teammates the way Moss does.

Randy Moss is a DC's worst nightmare. He's in my eyes, the 2nd best WR ever. And I know I catch flack for saying that, but when you look at how he dictates coverage, its just sick how he can dictate that kind of respect, and still dominate the game.

And he's never had a qb until Tom Brady. He gets a qb, and breaks the TD record. Granted, its still not as amazing as when Rice had it, but still.

Gay Ork Wang
07-16-2009, 11:57 AM
ummm Culpepper was damn good in the late 90s

ChezPower4
07-16-2009, 12:07 PM
He's in my eyes, the 2nd best WR ever.



Don Hutson is the second best WR of all-time.

bigbluedefense
07-16-2009, 12:23 PM
ummm Culpepper was damn good in the late 90s

No he wasn't. He always sucked. He's a good example of how fantasy football has polluted our minds of what makes a good player. Just because you put up good stats for 3 seasons or so doesn't mean you were ever a good quarterback.

bigbluedefense
07-16-2009, 12:25 PM
Don Hutson is the second best WR of all-time.

Huston is the reason why I specified that no WR "in the modern era" has impacted defenses like Moss did.

You're right, Huston was amazing, and is the reason why zone defense exists today.

Its just hard for me to compare him to Moss because the game was so different.

For argument sake though, I will cede Randy Moss as the #2 guy and give it to Huston. Hes just proven more at this point.

I think Moss will eventually be #2 though, he should surpass Huston by the end of his career.

Geo
07-16-2009, 12:32 PM
Ease up there, BBD. Moss played with a QB.

Cunningham, at the end of his career, still had the arm that suited Moss' speed. Culpepper. Collins for one year in Oakland, the mess that that was/is.

Not a great QB, like you say, but he did play with a QB and for more than one year.

GB12
07-16-2009, 12:55 PM
ummm Culpepper was damn good in the late 90s
Culpepper didn't throw a single pass in the 90s. The time frame you're looking for is 2000-2004.

No he wasn't. He always sucked. He's a good example of how fantasy football has polluted our minds of what makes a good player. Just because you put up good stats for 3 seasons or so doesn't mean you were ever a good quarterback.
Say what you want about Culpepper as an overall QB, but he was damn good at getting the ball to Moss. Randy Moss did not suffer because Culpepper was the QB. They were a great fit for each other and your statement about his QB play is quite ridiculous. Besides his Oakland years he has been set up very nicely with QBs his whole career. It's not Montana/Young/Gannon like Jerry Rice had, but it's far from bad.

Gay Ork Wang
07-16-2009, 01:07 PM
ah yea, got that mixed up after i watched that "Top Ten WR Corps: 98 Vikings" video

Shane P. Hallam
07-16-2009, 01:36 PM
I really like the article. Most influential is over the top, but almost every QB Randy Moss has had has been successful and many have gone on to not be so good afterwards. Pairing him with an actual Pro Bowl QB in Tom Brady had Moss set records. Yes, he is that good.

Crazy_Chris
07-16-2009, 02:49 PM
Most influential player ever? Definatly Not... One of the most influential modern era players? I'd say yes.

The two most prolific offenses in the history of the NFL have one thing in common, thats Randy Moss. I personally don't think thats just a coincidence.

Ness
07-16-2009, 02:52 PM
No he wasn't. He always sucked. He's a good example of how fantasy football has polluted our minds of what makes a good player. Just because you put up good stats for 3 seasons or so doesn't mean you were ever a good quarterback.

Then what was Culpepper at the time? Because he certainly wasn't terrible.

Paranoidmoonduck
07-16-2009, 03:05 PM
No he wasn't. He always sucked. He's a good example of how fantasy football has polluted our minds of what makes a good player. Just because you put up good stats for 3 seasons or so doesn't mean you were ever a good quarterback.

I'm sorry. I'll buy that Culpepper has always been turnover prone, that he fumbles way more than any quarterback should, and that he's been, at best, completely streaky during his career. But he certainly has not "always sucked". His 2004 season profiled, at the time, as one of the 10 best seasons a quarterback has ever had in terms of regular season production.

TACKLE
07-16-2009, 03:07 PM
Then what was Culpepper at the time? Because he certainly wasn't terrible.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/a/a0/Madden_NFL_2002_Coverart.png

I think he was pretty good at one time. ^^^

Though Culpepper has never been very good at reading defenses. His first read is always deep and he struggles to make the efficient throws to move the chains. That's why he was so good with Moss because Moss allowed the bomb to come back to the NFL. Culpepper then sucked in Miami and Oakland with no real deep threat but when he got to Detroit his play improved when he got Calvin. Now obviously talented WR's help QB's but not all are some dependent on having that big play WR. Cassell's main guy was Welker even though he had Moss. Romo liked to throw to Witten even though he had TO and Rivers prefers Gates to Vincent Jackson. Culpepper never really relied on a solid, possession WR and has always been all about the deep ball which has limited his success as an NFL QB.

vikes_28
07-17-2009, 01:20 AM
Moss will be a hall of famer. I don't care what anyone else says. He was part of an offense that broke records that were never meant to be broken. I think the Vikings are ******** for ever trading him. Because what they got in return was Troy Williamson and Napolean Harris. It was just a fail. I don't think he is the most influential, but for his time, he is definately the most inspirational. He is a hell of an athlete. And any kid that wants to succeed at WR after high school should look up to Randy.

Dam8610
07-17-2009, 12:16 PM
I have to question if Whitlock watched football in the 80s. Lawrence Taylor is IMO easily the most influential player of the modern era. His impact is still felt today in the contracts of elite pass rushers and elite pass protectors. He pretty much gave life to the rushbacker position and forced teams to invest heavily into protecting their QB's blind side. When Randy Moss makes safety one of the highest paid positions in the NFL, we can start talking about whether or not he's on the same level as LT. As for "most influential football player ever", I think that's next to impossible to define because of all the early evolution of the game and player/coach/owners and such in the early days.

yo123
07-17-2009, 03:23 PM
As someone who has watched every Vikings game for as long as I can remember and now can't stand Culpepper, I can admit that he was a damn good quarterback for a stretch of a couple seasons. And Moss wasn't the only reason. In 2004 which was Daunte's best season ever by far Moss was hindered by injuries all year and didn't even reach 1,000 yards.

GB12
07-17-2009, 08:26 PM
Moss will be a hall of famer. I don't care what anyone else says.
Where the hell did that come from? No ever said that Moss wont be in the HOF.

Staubach12
07-18-2009, 01:48 PM
Most influential? No... Possibly the best receiver ever? Maybe.

I just threw up a little in my mouth. He's awesome, but he's not Jerry Rice. At least not yet.

BamaFalcon59
07-18-2009, 01:49 PM
He's not Rice in longetivity, as far as dominance he may be better. Or at least it is debatable.

Paranoidmoonduck
07-18-2009, 02:51 PM
I have no problem saying Moss was a more talented and more dominant receiver than Rice ever was. Rice was playing in a groundbreaking offensive scheme with one of the best quarterbacks in NFL history with tons of offensive talent around him and he constantly got the opportunity to shine in the postseason. Moss was playing on a relatively unremarkable offense (his best teammate was a 33+ year old Chris Carter) with inconsistent quarterback play and very few opportunities to play in the post season.

Is he the best receiver? No, Rice still holds that title. But they were equally dynamic in their respective ways, which is all the more impressive for Moss considering his situation.

bantx
07-18-2009, 03:15 PM
I'll repeat what was said earlier, Moss'd him.

BlindSite
07-18-2009, 07:45 PM
I never saw rice play, so my question is just how good was he? Could he take over the game like Moss, Smith, Fitz and those guys, or was he more of a marvin harrison every down doing the right thing but not exactly the most explosive or stand out?

Paranoidmoonduck
07-18-2009, 07:52 PM
I never saw rice play, so my question is just how good was he? Could he take over the game like Moss, Smith, Fitz and those guys, or was he more of a marvin harrison every down doing the right thing but not exactly the most explosive or stand out?

I never got to see Rice play live in his prime, but being a Bay Area guy I have had the pleasure of re-watching a few 49ers seasons (I got a hold of the '86 and '90 game tapes a few years back). I suppose Fitzgerald would make a good comparison, although it's clear that in 1986, Rice's second year, people really didn't know how to cope with the guy. He made his slant cuts so quick and was so strong and sure-handed that he was getting huge seperation early in his routes and consistently turned quick passes into big gains. Rice wasn't quite as strong or large as Fitzgerald, but I think the gap between him and his competition was even greater. He was marvelous.

edit -

By the way, Marvin Harrison was a very explosive receiver in his prime.

bernbabybern820
07-18-2009, 07:54 PM
As someone who has watched every Vikings game for as long as I can remember and now can't stand Culpepper, I can admit that he was a damn good quarterback for a stretch of a couple seasons. And Moss wasn't the only reason. In 2004 which was Daunte's best season ever by far Moss was hindered by injuries all year and didn't even reach 1,000 yards.

But at the same time... Here's Gus Frerotte's stats for the two games as a starter with the Vikings with Moss when Cpep was injured in 2003.

Games started: 2
Completions: 30
Attempts: 45
Completion %: 66.6%
Yards: 506
Touchdowns: 6
Int: 1
QB Rating: 134.8

Paranoidmoonduck
07-18-2009, 08:21 PM
What kind of argument can you really make with a two game sample? I don't think anyone can seriously argue that Moss doesn't make a quarterback's life easier, but for a counterargument, here's Culpepper's 2004 numbers in games where Moss wasn't even on the field.

Games started: 5
Completions: 113
Attempts: 166
Completion rate: 68%
Yards: 1179
Touchdowns: 9
Int: 3

And, of course, Moss wasn't even particularly close to being Pep's leading receiver that year.

BlindSite
07-18-2009, 08:57 PM
Was Culpepper even in that good of situation to succeed anyway. He got hurt, got released and went to a rebuilding franchise who faltered with a pathetic coach, got released, went to a pathetic raiders team with an even worse coach, had injury issues, came back to the lions, the worst team in NFL history and he's expected to turn in performances similar to what he did in minnesota.

He was great under an offensive minded coach with an excellent supporting cast and then went to the worst organisations in the NFL with bad coaches one after the other.

I don't know why you'd expect him to have been better.

Ness
07-19-2009, 03:44 AM
Was Culpepper even in that good of situation to succeed anyway. He got hurt, got released and went to a rebuilding franchise who faltered with a pathetic coach, got released, went to a pathetic raiders team with an even worse coach, had injury issues, came back to the lions, the worst team in NFL history and he's expected to turn in performances similar to what he did in minnesota.

He was great under an offensive minded coach with an excellent supporting cast and then went to the worst organisations in the NFL with bad coaches one after the other.

I don't know why you'd expect him to have been better.

Before he got injured though during the 2005 season, he was performing terribly. People love to say that he faltered in Minnesota because of his knee, but in reality he was playing pretty terrible to begin with. That first game against the Buccaneers was pretty much the beginning of the Culpepper we know today. Outside of two good games against the lowly Packers and Saints that season, he really was disappointing. The departure of Linehan and center Matt Birk hurt, but it looked like Culpepper just couldn't read defenses anymore. Or rather, the league figured him out.

JT Jag
07-19-2009, 04:01 AM
Well without Dan Fouts and Coryell there wouldn't be deep passing as we know it, forget the defenses.

Deion turned the game into a show. Jim Brown played 1 v. 11, required more attention than Moss ever did. Fran Tarkenton redefined quarterbacking with his scrambling. Lawrence Taylor changed everything. The NFL's history is too long and too deep for a guy like Moss to even be considered for most influential.In addition to those fine suggestions, Sammy Baugh essentially pioneered the forward pass as we know it and Don Hutson almost single handedly invented the concept of route-running.

Iamcanadian
07-19-2009, 12:08 PM
He changed how defenses covered deep passing. And that is a big part of todays game.

Actually, Peyton great season when he set the record for TD passes changed how defenses defend the pass. Moss has had little impact on the game outside of a few great seasons.

GhostDeini
07-19-2009, 05:07 PM
Lynn Swan was more influential ? All of his 2-3 big catches he's known for right ? GTFOH. Lynn Swan never reached 900 yards in any season. So please. And Calvin Johnson is a new & improved version of Randy Moss. Bigger, stronger, faster, and you'll never have to say "when motivated" he is a great WR. Youre automatically taken out of G.O.A.T. discussion when you have to bring up a qualifier like that.

YAYareaRB
07-19-2009, 05:37 PM
http://www.scotthyver.com/vision/imgs/patrick_willis_lasik.jpg

http://www.unlockedsports.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/09/tx_lewis_ray.jpg

These guys will influence you to run the other way.

BlindSite
07-19-2009, 06:46 PM
Before he got injured though during the 2005 season, he was performing terribly. People love to say that he faltered in Minnesota because of his knee, but in reality he was playing pretty terrible to begin with. That first game against the Buccaneers was pretty much the beginning of the Culpepper we know today. Outside of two good games against the lowly Packers and Saints that season, he really was disappointing. The departure of Linehan and center Matt Birk hurt, but it looked like Culpepper just couldn't read defenses anymore. Or rather, the league figured him out.


The league didn't just figure him out, that never happens, especially not after a player has one of the greatest seasons of a quarterback of all time. Yeah there were likely some issues at the beginning of the season when in the first two games he threw 8 total interceptions, he lost his Offensive Coordinator, he lost his centre and he lost his best receiver. He was out of his depth without someone who knew how to cater to him and without the guys around him who helped make him great.

Against Carolina the coaches were trying different things and it was working, the Culpepper was playing well and it wasn't until he went out of the game that Carolina began to dominate.

There is no way you can tell me that playing for Miami, Oakland and Detroit in the last three years in the state those franchises were in is the same as 02-05 minnesota and the "league figured him out"

Ness
07-19-2009, 08:01 PM
The league didn't just figure him out, that never happens, especially not after a player has one of the greatest seasons of a quarterback of all time. Yeah there were likely some issues at the beginning of the season when in the first two games he threw 8 total interceptions, he lost his Offensive Coordinator, he lost his centre and he lost his best receiver. He was out of his depth without someone who knew how to cater to him and without the guys around him who helped make him great.

Against Carolina the coaches were trying different things and it was working, the Culpepper was playing well and it wasn't until he went out of the game that Carolina began to dominate.

There is no way you can tell me that playing for Miami, Oakland and Detroit in the last three years in the state those franchises were in is the same as 02-05 minnesota and the "league figured him out"
I really don't have an obligation to convince you. It sounds like you have already made up your mind. Which is why I'm surprised you replied in the first place.

You have your opinion and I have mine.

PoopSandwich
07-19-2009, 09:53 PM
I'm not saying he's the best ever but he'll definitely be in the conversation by the time he retires... I think he's the most freak of a receiver ever but CJ/Fitz may end up being more impressive as far as that is concerned.

BamaFalcon59
07-19-2009, 10:03 PM
I'm not saying he's the best ever but he'll definitely be in the conversation by the time he retires... I think he's the most freak of a receiver ever but CJ/Fitz may end up being more impressive as far as that is concerned.

Fitz has no shot at being as 'freakish' as Moss.

CJ might.

BamaFalcon59
07-19-2009, 10:05 PM
Actually, Peyton great season when he set the record for TD passes changed how defenses defend the pass. Moss has had little impact on the game outside of a few great seasons.

I've heard defensive coaches say otherwise.

ChezPower4
07-19-2009, 10:16 PM
Actually, Peyton great season when he set the record for TD passes changed how defenses defend the pass. Moss has had little impact on the game outside of a few great seasons.

Not at all true. Most elite WR prospects coming out of college now are in the mold of Moss i.e Andre Johnson, Calvin Johnson.

Teams devised schemes to stop Randy Moss. If you did not at least double cover him. He would take over the game and destroy the opposition. That sounds like a pretty big impact.

YAYareaRB
07-19-2009, 10:48 PM
I'm not saying he's the best ever but he'll definitely be in the conversation by the time he retires... I think he's the most freak of a receiver ever but CJ/Fitz may end up being more impressive as far as that is concerned.

Yeah Fitz is pretty average SIZE for a receiver. The things he can do with the ball is the freakish part. I think when he means Freakish when talking about Randy Moss is being tall and fast with freaky ball skills and hands.

YAYareaRB
07-19-2009, 10:49 PM
Honestly, I think Lawrence Taylor was a more influential player.

Addict
07-20-2009, 05:59 AM
Yeah Fitz is pretty average SIZE for a receiver. The things he can do with the ball is the freakish part. I think when he means Freakish when talking about Randy Moss is being tall and fast with freaky ball skills and hands.

Calvin Johnson says hi.

murdamal86
07-20-2009, 02:46 PM
Calvin Johnson says hi.

Randy Moss in his prime was more athletic than Calvin Johnson though

Ness
07-20-2009, 03:50 PM
Randy Moss in his prime was more athletic than Calvin Johnson though

As a football player? Not necessarily. Moss had more speed (and probably still does), but that doesn't mean he was a better overall athlete for football.

BlindSite
07-20-2009, 06:23 PM
As a football player? Not necessarily. Moss had more speed (and probably still does), but that doesn't mean he was a better overall athlete for football.

He was still a far better football player and therefore a far better weapon.

Everyone is all over Calvin's nuts, he's yet to really make his mark. Moss, Owens, Fitzgerald, Smith, White, Andre Johnson, are all better football players and receivers right now.

Gay Ork Wang
07-20-2009, 06:32 PM
i definitely wouldnt take White over CJ

Ness
07-20-2009, 06:39 PM
He was still a far better football player and therefore a far better weapon.

Everyone is all over Calvin's nuts, he's yet to really make his mark. Moss, Owens, Fitzgerald, Smith, White, Andre Johnson, are all better football players and receivers right now.

I never said I thought Randy Moss in his prime was a worse football player than Calvin Johnson. I just don't think he was an overall better athlete. Those are two different things.

As for Johnson and his hype, it's well deserved. I don't see how he hasn't "made his mark" yet. 78 receptions for over 1300 yards and 12 touchdowns on a team that didn't win a single game is very impressive. I can't remember the last receiver to put up such a good second season on a team that bad.

BlindSite
07-20-2009, 09:26 PM
I never said I thought Randy Moss in his prime was a worse football player than Calvin Johnson. I just don't think he was an overall better athlete. Those are two different things.

As for Johnson and his hype, it's well deserved. I don't see how he hasn't "made his mark" yet. 78 receptions for over 1300 yards and 12 touchdowns on a team that didn't win a single game is very impressive. I can't remember the last receiver to put up such a good second season on a team that bad.

He had good numbers, no one is doubting that, but for you to be a special player you have to be part of something. Look at Smith's 05 season, he was the running game and the passing game and was the sole reason the team was able to be competitive. That unit across the offensive line and on the defense was full of holes and more than once Smith rescued the team.

Look at the impact TO had on Philly when he first arrived, the eagles went from competitive to dominant.

Yeah CJ is very good, but he's not yet at that height where he's better or equal with the guys I listed, he's well on his way and I think this season, or maybe the next we'll see him arrive, but he's not there yet.

YAYareaRB
07-21-2009, 01:31 AM
Calvin Johnson says hi.

I don't understand what you were trying to prove here.

yourfavestoner
07-21-2009, 04:36 AM
The league didn't just figure him out, that never happens, especially not after a player has one of the greatest seasons of a quarterback of all time. Yeah there were likely some issues at the beginning of the season when in the first two games he threw 8 total interceptions, he lost his Offensive Coordinator, he lost his centre and he lost his best receiver. He was out of his depth without someone who knew how to cater to him and without the guys around him who helped make him great.

Against Carolina the coaches were trying different things and it was working, the Culpepper was playing well and it wasn't until he went out of the game that Carolina began to dominate.

There is no way you can tell me that playing for Miami, Oakland and Detroit in the last three years in the state those franchises were in is the same as 02-05 minnesota and the "league figured him out"

The thing that gets most overlooked with Daunte's decline is that his mechanics went to absolute **** after he ripped his knee to shreds.

BlindSite
07-21-2009, 06:35 AM
That's one of the things I'm mildly curious about with brady. The saving grace in his part might be it was his left knee not his right that got torn.

Gay Ork Wang
07-21-2009, 06:49 AM
I don't understand what you were trying to prove here.
http://img196.imageshack.us/img196/5287/motivator663382749a58f0.jpg

YAYareaRB
07-21-2009, 10:46 AM
http://img196.imageshack.us/img196/5287/motivator663382749a58f0.jpg

Thought so.. lol

katnip
08-02-2009, 10:45 PM
I'd say Lawrence Taylor was more influential. Because defense were actually changed in the way that they scouted for certain players.

yea, i agree