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View Full Version : Top 5 Offensive Lines in the NFL


D-Unit
08-12-2009, 09:14 PM
Rank yours .

JFLO
08-12-2009, 09:24 PM
1. New York Giants
2. Philadelphia Eagles
3. Tennessee Titans
4. New England Patriots
5. Carolina Panthers

I'm not picking Minnesota or Baltimore until Loadholt or Oher show some promise during the season.

Also, the Jets just missed the cut...but their value will be shown this year with a majority of running this season.

Seamus2602
08-12-2009, 09:32 PM
1 - New York Giants
2 - Tennessee Titans
3 - New York Jets
4 - Philadelphia Eagles
5 - Minnesota Vikings

The reason I picked the Vikings, and picked them quite highly, is that despite te fact that they will probably start a Rookie this seeason, they have the best Left hand side in Football.

I wouldn't have the Patriots there either. Take Tom Brady out and that line was raped in every game.

Thumper
08-12-2009, 09:40 PM
1. Titans
2. Giants
3. Eagles
4. Panthers
5. Jets

HM: Vikings and Ravens, Vikings lose Birk, starting a rookie and RG isn't great but the left is fantastic and the Ravens lose Jason Brown and Willie Anderson and replace them with Birk and Oher which could be upgrades but we don't know yet.

Ravens1991
08-12-2009, 09:42 PM
I think Birk should step in and we wont really be hurt at C. But we have to see if Oher plays good to be considered elite

RAVENS/WIZARDS/ORIOLES
08-12-2009, 09:47 PM
Giants/Titans/Eagles/Panthers/Ravens

I picked the Ravens because IMO Anderson was never 100% playing with us and we have Oher. I know that he hasn't proven anything yet but our coaches say he is ready and I have faith in them. Brown leaving hurts us but we replaced him with a more than capable center.


Also I am a homer

keylime_5
08-12-2009, 09:48 PM
Giants
Titans
Eagles
Panthers
Patriots

HM: Vikings, Jets, Ravens, Browns, Cowboys

Give it a year and Baltimore could be in the top 3.

regoob2
08-12-2009, 09:53 PM
Eagles have a lot of question marks on there line.

TACKLE
08-12-2009, 09:54 PM
1. Panthers
2. Titans
3. Ravens
4. Giants
5. Broncos

7-11
08-12-2009, 09:55 PM
Giants
Titans
Eagles
Panthers
Jets


Clear top 4 i think, that 5th option could be any of the Jets, Vikings and Ravens imo.

superman8456
08-12-2009, 09:58 PM
1) Eagles offensive line has great individual players, but we've never seen them play as a unit yet. I'm not going to say they're top 5 status yet, but they sure do have the talent to be.

2) Patriots offensive line is the most overrated oline in the league. I think Matt Cassell got sacked around 47 times last year.

Baltimore is alright, but I would put them closer to 5 if it at all on my list. Surprised Denver hasnt gotten many mentions.

CC.SD
08-12-2009, 10:04 PM
1. Titans
2. Broncos
3. Panthers
4. Eagles
5. Giants

I'm pretty happy with this list.

marshallb
08-12-2009, 10:20 PM
1) Eagles offensive line has great individual players, but we've never seen them play as a unit yet. I'm not going to say they're top 5 status yet, but they sure do have the talent to be.

2) Patriots offensive line is the most overrated oline in the league. I think Matt Cassell got sacked around 47 times last year.

Baltimore is alright, but I would put them closer to 5 if it at all on my list. Surprised Denver hasnt gotten many mentions.

I agree, I was surprised to only see them on 2 lists, and 1 was after this post.

wonderbredd24
08-12-2009, 10:20 PM
1. Giants
2. Broncos
3. Titans
4. Panthers
5. Ravens

PACKmanN
08-12-2009, 10:21 PM
1. Titans
2. Gaints
3. Broncos
4. Ravens
5. Panthers

7-11
08-12-2009, 10:30 PM
Haha, love how the Broncos get 2 mentions in 2 posts after a point is made about them yet none in the 1st 10 or so.

keylime_5
08-12-2009, 10:37 PM
Broncos front is gonna take a step back this year without Shanny. Let's see if Clady can do as well without some tweaks in the scheme to help him out like he had as a rookie.

the decider13
08-12-2009, 10:47 PM
Giants
Titans
Broncos
Panthers
Jets

How does Shanny leaving have anything to do with Clady performing?

Caddy
08-12-2009, 11:14 PM
I'm hoping the Buccaneers can start cracking these top 5's soon. We have a very young offensive line which has shown a ton of promise. Faine, Joseph and Zuttah/Sears is a strong interior whilst Trueblood and Penn are promising tackles. It'll be interesting to see how a change in scheme effects this unit though.

superman8456
08-12-2009, 11:19 PM
I'm hoping the Buccaneers can start cracking these top 5's soon. We have a very young offensive line which has shown a ton of promise. Faine, Joseph and Zuttah/Sears is a strong interior whilst Trueblood and Penn are promising tackles. It'll be interesting to see how a change in scheme effects this unit though.

Davin Joseph is a really good guard. One of my favorite players in the league for sure.

Saints 4 Lyfe
08-12-2009, 11:21 PM
Saints are in there. they've given up the least amount of sacks almost every year Brees has been here.

7-11
08-13-2009, 12:10 AM
Saints are in there. they've given up the least amount of sacks almost every year Brees has been here.

Probably more of a reflection on Brees than the line.

CashmoneyDrew
08-13-2009, 12:22 AM
What about the Saints' run blocking though?

CC.SD
08-13-2009, 12:33 AM
Davin Joseph is a really good guard. One of my favorite players in the league for sure.

I loved Davin Joseph as a prospect. Nice that he is doing well, I didn't really get to focus on the Bucs O line the last few years.

Thumper
08-13-2009, 12:34 AM
Baltimore is alright, but I would put them closer to 5 if it at all on my list. Surprised Denver hasnt gotten many mentions.

Denver had the least sacks but they allowed the most pressures. That line benefitted from Cutler and they will be exposed with the stationary Orton at QB.

yo123
08-13-2009, 12:35 AM
If you guys are ranking the Vikings up there based on last year's performance then that's just not right, because they were nothing special last year.

But if you think losing Birk isn't that big a deal and Loadholdt will have a quick learning curve that's another story.

niel89
08-13-2009, 12:47 AM
Im actually a little surprised that this many people have the Ravens in this conversation. I think that if Oher pans out then we have bookend tackles with a pretty strong interior too. If we could have kept Brown it would have been great but he had to get his money and hopefully Birk will fill in and do alright.

Saints-Tigers
08-13-2009, 12:55 AM
Probably more of a reflection on Brees than the line.

This.

They aren't bad at pass blocking, but certainly not top 5, Brees' movement in the pocket is brilliant.

What about the Saints' run blocking though?

Hahahah, I'll quote Drew Brees, I think he about summed it up, when asked about the Saints running game:

"Doesn't matter who is back there if they keep getting hit in the backfield"

derza222
08-13-2009, 01:43 AM
The Jets OL is really nice in the starting lineup, but the depth is awful. The love is nice, but if somebody gets hurt it's could start to get pretty ugly. And given nobody got hurt last year I have a feeling somebody's going to get dinged up. Just my take. So taking depth into the equation, which should be a factor, really drops the Jets IMO.

GhostDeini
08-13-2009, 06:06 AM
Everybody that left Vikings completely off their lists lost credibility. They are the best unit in the league and only getting better with Loadholt. He might not win ROY but he'll have biggest impact of all the rookies. Giants are next. Ravens & Dolphins oline's have a chance to be really good.

wonderbredd24
08-13-2009, 09:11 AM
Everybody that left Vikings completely off their lists lost credibility. They are the best unit in the league and only getting better with Loadholt. He might not win ROY but he'll have biggest impact of all the rookies. Giants are next. Ravens & Dolphins oline's have a chance to be really good.


Who is their center now?

Also, Loadholt's feet terrify me, so I'll wait and see. If they are as bad as some people fear, he's going to be a human turnstyle

Gay Ork Wang
08-13-2009, 10:00 AM
Even the Vikings fans say that the pass protection is average at best

bigbluedefense
08-13-2009, 11:47 AM
I personally don't understand all the man love for the Giants offensive line. It is not the best in the league, id rank it #5 at best.

We are probably the best run blocking unit in the league, but as far as pass protection goes, we're easily middle tier. There are tons of lines better in pass protection than the Giants line.

Our OTs are nothing to brag about in pass protection.

To be the best oline, you have to be great in both the run game, and pass protection.

1. Tennessee
2. Philly
3. Carolina
4. Denver
5. Giants

wonderbredd24
08-13-2009, 12:25 PM
I understand why people like Philly's line, but here's the problem. Am I wrong or are 4 of their likely starters dealing with injuries? For a line that has not played together at all yet, it makes it difficult to gel.

Gay Ork Wang
08-13-2009, 12:34 PM
i concur. i was kinda surprised to see them on here a lot

Giantsfan1080
08-13-2009, 12:38 PM
I also don't understand the love for Philly's O-Line. They haven't even played a game together so how do we know how could they will be. They have the potential to be one of the best but we can't say they are their yet.

Smooth Criminal
08-13-2009, 12:40 PM
I like the Browns line alot. Maybe not top 5 but I didn't feel like repeating the same lists everyone else posted.

Thomas and Steinbach have been great and they added Mack in the draft. That has potential to be an awesome line.

wonderbredd24
08-13-2009, 12:49 PM
I like the Browns line alot. Maybe not top 5 but I didn't feel like repeating the same lists everyone else posted.

Thomas and Steinbach have been great and they added Mack in the draft. That has potential to be an awesome line.

I agree, but right tackle needs a more permanent solution. I imagine St. Clair will be serviceable, but he's not the answer there.

tjsunstein
08-13-2009, 12:55 PM
My list wouldn't be anything different than what has been posted. Any combination with the Titans first, then the Giants, Broncos, Panthers, Eagles, Vikings following them in any order can't be wrong.

d34ng3l021
08-13-2009, 01:15 PM
The Broncos, Saints, and Patriots success in pass blocking should largely be accredited to the (previous) QBs of those team. On paper, the Broncos and Saints look great in pass blocking because of the low number of sacks given up, but a lot of that has to do with Cutler and Brees getting rid of the ball quickly. Look at what happened to the Patriots and Saints as an example.

In 578 drop backs during 2007, the offensive line gave up 21 sacks to Tom Brady. In 516 drop backs during 2008, the offensive line gave up 47 sacks to Matt Cassel.

In 2005, the Saints gave up 41 sacks. A year later, they gave up 23 sacks. The difference? Drew Brees.

Let's see how Clady and the Broncos offensive line does with the departure of Jay Cutler before placing them on a top 5 offensive line list. Here is mine:

1. Tennessee Titans - Dominant. Which team gave up the least sacks last year? Who was the least sacked QB in the NFL last year? If you answered the Titans and Kerry frickin Collins, then you are right. Not only that, but the team was #7 in rushing yards. Not shabby.

2. New York Giants - Chemistry over talent. I don't believe that the Giants have the most talented offensive line (that could go to rival Philadelphia), but the way that this offensive line has gelled together to be a great run blocking team and good in pass protection.

3. Carolina Panthers - Balanced. With Gross holding down the left side against pass rushers and Otah mauling other plays on the right, this is one of the best run blocking lines in the NFL.

4. Philadelphia Eagles - Talented. I need to see them play together before I think they are a top 3 unit. Playing together is important for an offensive line so let's see how they do.

5. Ravens/Jets/Vikings

Pb&j
08-13-2009, 02:23 PM
I think Cleveland's being underrated. With injuries to steinbach and tucker last year, and really bad play by shaffer and fraley the browns gave up the eighth fewest sacks in the league.

They've drafted the best center in the draft to replace fraley, and have replaced shaffer with St. Clair. St. Clair wasn't a very good left tackle in pass protection, but now he is on the right side where his excellent run blocking will show.

Tucker and steinbach are healthy, and there is competition for the right guard slot. The line has a lot of depth.

scottyboy
08-13-2009, 02:27 PM
http://www.rutgersspectacular.com/ohara.jpg

win

DoughBoy
08-13-2009, 04:10 PM
You sir, are mistaken.....



http://nashvillecitypaper.com/files/citypaper/imagecache/story_floated/images/sports_KevinMawae.jpg

win

scottyboy
08-13-2009, 04:11 PM
he is old and did not go to Rutgers, thus making him not Shaun O'Hara win

DoughBoy
08-13-2009, 04:15 PM
I guess you might as well stick a fork in me then.

CashmoneyDrew
08-13-2009, 04:23 PM
Don't forget LeRoy Harris!!!!!

Best 6th o-lineman in the league.

Gay Ork Wang
08-13-2009, 05:20 PM
I think Cleveland's being underrated. With injuries to steinbach and tucker last year, and really bad play by shaffer and fraley the browns gave up the eighth fewest sacks in the league.

They've drafted the best center in the draft to replace fraley, and have replaced shaffer with St. Clair. St. Clair wasn't a very good left tackle in pass protection, but now he is on the right side where his excellent run blocking will show.

Tucker and steinbach are healthy, and there is competition for the right guard slot. The line has a lot of depth.
his run blocking was average at best

the decider13
08-13-2009, 05:36 PM
The Broncos, Saints, and Patriots success in pass blocking should largely be accredited to the (previous) QBs of those team. On paper, the Broncos and Saints look great in pass blocking because of the low number of sacks given up, but a lot of that has to do with Cutler and Brees getting rid of the ball quickly. Look at what happened to the Patriots and Saints as an example.

Let's see how Clady and the Broncos offensive line does with the departure of Jay Cutler before placing them on a top 5 offensive line list. Here is mine:



It's easy to say that just looking at stats, but if you watched the Broncos even a little bit last year, Clady absolutely dominated everyone he went against. It wasn't like Cutler was getting the ball out right before the guy Clady was supposed to be blocking got there. The guy never got close. The tackles are extremely solid.

If there is one question mark on the line, it is definately the guards. Ben Hamilton is a stud, but he has serious injury problems. Also, Casey Wiegman is pushing 40 and is the only starting quality center on the team.

BlindSite
08-13-2009, 05:37 PM
The Broncos, Saints, and Patriots success in pass blocking should largely be accredited to the (previous) QBs of those team. On paper, the Broncos and Saints look great in pass blocking because of the low number of sacks given up, but a lot of that has to do with Cutler and Brees getting rid of the ball quickly. Look at what happened to the Patriots and Saints as an example.

In 578 drop backs during 2007, the offensive line gave up 21 sacks to Tom Brady. In 516 drop backs during 2008, the offensive line gave up 47 sacks to Matt Cassel.

In 2005, the Saints gave up 41 sacks. A year later, they gave up 23 sacks. The difference? Drew Brees.

Let's see how Clady and the Broncos offensive line does with the departure of Jay Cutler before placing them on a top 5 offensive line list. Here is mine:

1. Tennessee Titans - Dominant. Which team gave up the least sacks last year? Who was the least sacked QB in the NFL last year? If you answered the Titans and Kerry frickin Collins, then you are right. Not only that, but the team was #7 in rushing yards. Not shabby.

2. New York Giants - Chemistry over talent. I don't believe that the Giants have the most talented offensive line (that could go to rival Philadelphia), but the way that this offensive line has gelled together to be a great run blocking team and good in pass protection.

3. Carolina Panthers - Balanced. With Gross holding down the left side against pass rushers and Otah mauling other plays on the right, this is one of the best run blocking lines in the NFL.

4. Philadelphia Eagles - Talented. I need to see them play together before I think they are a top 3 unit. Playing together is important for an offensive line so let's see how they do.

5. Ravens/Jets/Vikings

Best list I've seen in the thread, not one thing I'd change.

Marino13
08-14-2009, 09:36 AM
While Miami isn't an elite OL, if they can stay healthy a line of Jake Long/Justin Smiley/Jake Grove/Donald Thomas/Vernon Carey could sneak into the top 5 by seasons end.

scottyboy
08-14-2009, 10:44 AM
While Miami isn't an elite OL, if they can stay healthy a line of Jake Long/Justin Smiley/Jake Grove/Donald Thomas/Vernon Carey could sneak into the top 5 by seasons end.

no, just no. MAYBE they can be near the top 5 in a year or 2, but just no.

no bare feet
08-14-2009, 11:22 AM
While Miami isn't an elite OL, if they can stay healthy a line of Jake Long/Justin Smiley/Jake Grove/Donald Thomas/Vernon Carey could sneak into the top 5 by seasons end.

The username you have created makes me suspect that you MAY be a Dolphins fan. Is that something I can assume?

DeepThreat
08-14-2009, 11:35 AM
No respect for the Browns? Their only weak spot is at RT, and that should be respectable.

bigbluedefense
08-14-2009, 11:52 AM
No respect for the Browns? Their only weak spot is at RT, and that should be respectable.

i think a lot of us, including myself, fall for the trap of basing performance from the previous year, and from projections.

2 years ago I said Dallas had arguably the best oline in the league, and if you were to ask me this year, Id say their line is decent in the run, but below average in pass protection.

So much can change, we just don't anticipate it. Its hard to predict with offensive lines.

EDIT: for example, how many of us said the Giants had the "best" oline (which i strongly dispute) in the league before the 09 season? Nobody. But at the end of the season, they were a consensus top 5 line.

You just can't predict it. The only offensive lines that have been consistently in the top 5 for the past 3 years has been the Titans line and the Eagles line.

Matthew Jones
08-14-2009, 12:21 PM
1. Tennessee Titans - Pretty clear #1 for me. Great tackles, Mawae at center, amazing run blocking.

2. Philadelphia Eagles - I love the new additions, and they already had a quality line last year. This should be better.

3. New York Giants - I have some questions about Diehl, but I love the way they're aggressive in run blocking.

4. Carolina Panthers - Jordan Gross anchors this one, then you've also got Otah, etc. They make Delhomme look good.

5. Baltimore Ravens - Not the biggest Oher fan and they lost Brown but the drop off isn't too bad and they have Gaither.

LizardState
08-14-2009, 08:08 PM
1. Tennessee Titans - Pretty clear #1 for me. Great tackles, Mawae at center, amazing run blocking.

2. Philadelphia Eagles - I love the new additions, and they already had a quality line last year. This should be better.

agree with nos. 1 & 2 in principal, Eagles have best talent top to bottom in the NFC if not the league. They had the Human Road Grader in Andrews & a Pro Bowler with Runyan for yrs.

3. New York Giants - I have some questions about Diehl, but I love the way they're aggressive in run blocking. An understatement, Brandon Jacobs owes his continued health to them & those huge freakish holes they have given him. With his weird upright running style he's a 270-lb. RB injury waiting to happen.

4. Carolina Panthers - Jordan Gross anchors this one, then you've also got Otah, etc. They make Delhomme look good. S/B higher, the most unsung of the unsung o-lines. Drafting Gross was golden for them.

5. Baltimore Ravens - Not the biggest Oher fan and they lost Brown but the drop off isn't too bad and they have Gaither. Expected RavenOfProphecy to include the Edgar Allen Poe Birds, but Oher has enormous upside, & they turned in a great playoffs performance last yr.

Honorable mention homer pick for Dallas here too, even though their once mighty o-line has clearly slipped, I'll admit it, largely due to Flozell Adams' lack of intelligence & ability to learn how not to blow the snap count, & lack of a true quality center that launches annual auditions for the job that usually goes to a converted guard like Gurode. You have to include the Cowboys b/c of Columbo alone, he's their catalyst that makes it happen for their offense. Talk about an o-lineman find! And an interior lineman star from Boston College, that formula still holds.

bearsfan_51
08-14-2009, 08:13 PM
No respect for the Browns? Their only weak spot is at RT, and that should be respectable.
There is nothing respectable about John St. Clair.

Sniper
08-14-2009, 08:26 PM
Not sure how good the Eagles' OL will be compared to what it can be if Shawn Andrews keeps being hurt. As much as I like Max Jean-Gilles, I'd rather have Andrews and Andrews over St. Andrews and MJG.

Jakey
08-18-2009, 11:58 AM
Steelers!














































...naaaaaaaaaat!

Malaka
08-18-2009, 08:44 PM
I personally don't understand all the man love for the Giants offensive line. It is not the best in the league, id rank it #5 at best.

We are probably the best run blocking unit in the league, but as far as pass protection goes, we're easily middle tier. There are tons of lines better in pass protection than the Giants line.

Our OTs are nothing to brag about in pass protection.

To be the best oline, you have to be great in both the run game, and pass protection.

1. Tennessee
2. Philly
3. Carolina
4. Denver
5. Giants

I feel the same way, though I do believe we are top 5, our pass protection is really unimpressive. I'd rank it just a little bit different.

1. Tennessee Titans
2. Philadelphia Eagles
3. Carolina Panthers
4. New York Giants
5. Minnesota Vikings

DeepThreat
08-18-2009, 10:26 PM
There is nothing respectable about John St. Clair.

Who is not at all likely to start.

djp
08-18-2009, 10:52 PM
This thread for whatever reason reminded me of that Chiefs offensive line back in the early 2000's. God that line was sick. Shields, Roaf, Waters, etc

Timbathia
08-18-2009, 11:07 PM
The Broncos, Saints, and Patriots success in pass blocking should largely be accredited to the (previous) QBs of those team. On paper, the Broncos and Saints look great in pass blocking because of the low number of sacks given up, but a lot of that has to do with Cutler and Brees getting rid of the ball quickly. Look at what happened to the Patriots and Saints as an example.

In 578 drop backs during 2007, the offensive line gave up 21 sacks to Tom Brady. In 516 drop backs during 2008, the offensive line gave up 47 sacks to Matt Cassel.

In 2005, the Saints gave up 41 sacks. A year later, they gave up 23 sacks. The difference? Drew Brees.

Let's see how Clady and the Broncos offensive line does with the departure of Jay Cutler before placing them on a top 5 offensive line list. Here is mine:

1. Tennessee Titans - Dominant. Which team gave up the least sacks last year? Who was the least sacked QB in the NFL last year? If you answered the Titans and Kerry frickin Collins, then you are right. Not only that, but the team was #7 in rushing yards. Not shabby.

2. New York Giants - Chemistry over talent. I don't believe that the Giants have the most talented offensive line (that could go to rival Philadelphia), but the way that this offensive line has gelled together to be a great run blocking team and good in pass protection.

3. Carolina Panthers - Balanced. With Gross holding down the left side against pass rushers and Otah mauling other plays on the right, this is one of the best run blocking lines in the NFL.

4. Philadelphia Eagles - Talented. I need to see them play together before I think they are a top 3 unit. Playing together is important for an offensive line so let's see how they do.

5. Ravens/Jets/Vikings

This is a silly argument, and this post highlights it. You give number 1 to the Titans mainly because they gave up equal least number of sacks in the NFL (along with the Broncos). They are a run first, run second, and generally run third team with an incredibly experienced QB (who never tries to do too much and is savvy enough to get rid of the ball quickly when pressured). They are a good unit, and great in run blocking, but based off play calling they shouldnt give up many sacks.

Yet you downgrade the Broncos (out of the top 8 at least) who also gave up 12 sacks despite throwing the ball many many more times than the Titans (when everyone knew they would be throwing most of the time), and also averaged 4.5 yds per carry on the ground. Yes Cutler is quite elusive, but so is Big Ben and he gets sacked every couple of minutes. To pin it all on Cutler means you never watched a single Broncos game last year. The o-line were dominant, despite a ton or pressure and Cutler holding on to the ball on many occasions looking for a big play. Yes Orton will take a lot more sacks this year than Cutler did, but it will be due to the new offense he is trying to get a grasp on and wont be due to the o-line not doing its job.

you also give the third spot to a team you have said in your post that you havent seen play!!!!!!!! Is everyone in here just guessing at which line is the best based off stats and names or has anyone actually taken any notice whatsoever of how the o-lines play in real life?

Timbathia
08-18-2009, 11:15 PM
To clarify I think this debate is silly as very few people appear to have anywhere near enough knowledge and appropriate criteria to assess the o-lines. I dont mean that I think the poster I quoted is silly. There appears to be a ton of homerism in peoples lists.

Vikes99ej
08-18-2009, 11:31 PM
1) Giants
2) Titans
3) Vikings
4) Patriots
5) Eagles

senormysterioso
08-18-2009, 11:42 PM
No respect for the Browns? Their only weak spot is at RT, and that should be respectable.

I know it's preseason, but their line got brutalized by the Packers first team even without Raji and Matthews. They looked sad.

wogitalia
08-19-2009, 12:39 AM
Vikings should not be on this list.

Hutch is a superstar.

Effectively a rookie center, rookie RT, journeyman(for good reason) RG and a LT who can't block anyone with above average speed. That is not a top 5 line.

DeepThreat
08-19-2009, 08:37 AM
I know it's preseason, but their line got brutalized by the Packers first team even without Raji and Matthews. They looked sad.

I can't argue with this. But, it wasn't the two guys on the left's fault. It was the two on the right, one of whom isn't expected to start.