PDA

View Full Version : The Hall of Fame Debate


Pages : [1] 2 3

JFLO
08-21-2009, 05:05 PM
Alright, the point of this thread is to debate whether or not certain players will be inducted into the Hall of Fame after they retire.

There are some players that are automatic "shoe-ins" (Brady, Manning, Tomlinson). However, there are some players that are walking the line between Yay and Nay (McNabb, Warner).

So debate on whether or not these players will eventually reach Canton...feel free to discuss any player at anytime.

If needed, here is a list of players that can be considered:

Yay or Nay
Terrell Owens WR Buffalo
Jason Taylor LB/DE Miami
Fred Taylor RB New England
Richard Seymour DE New England
Alan Faneca G New York Jets
Ed Reed S Baltimore
Jamal Lewis RB Cleveland
Troy Polamalu S Pittsburgh
Hines Ward WR Pittsburgh
Kevin Mawae C Tennessee
Antonio Gates TE San Diego
Brian Waters G Kansas City
Zach Thomas LB Kansas City
Lorenzo Neal FB Oakland
Nnamdi Asomough CB Oakland
Champ Bailey CB Denver
Brian Dawkins S Denver
Brian Westbrook RB Phiadelphia
Donovan McNabb QB Philadelphia
Steve Hutchinson G Minnesota
Brian Urlacher LB CHICAGO!!!
Orlando Pace LT Chicago
Kurt Warner QB Arizona
Drew Brees QB New Orleans
Rhonde Barber CB Tampa Bay
Ben Roethlisberger QB Pittsburgh
Bill Cowher Coach
Tom Coughlin Coach New York Giants
Jeff Fisher Coach Tennessee

These are the players who I consider "Shoe-Ins"

Tom Brady QB New England
Peyton Manning QB Indianapolis
Tony Gonzalez TE Atlanta
Ray Lewis LB Baltimore
Marvin Harrison WR Free Agent
Derrick Brooks LB Free Agent
Walter Jones LT Seattle
Jonathan Ogden LT
Larry Allen G
Brett Favre QB Minnesota
LaDainian Tomlinson RB San Diego
Torry Holt WR Jacksonville
Isaac Bruce WR San Francisco
Junior Seau LB Free Agent???
Adam Vinatieri K Indianapolis Colts (the dude won two SBs with kicks)
Bill Belichick Coach New England
Mike Shannahan Coach
Tony Dungy Coach (I think the fact that he was the first black coach to win the Super Bowl will seal it off)
Bill Parcells Coach (Honestly don't know if he is already in, I doubt it)


I'm done listing them and I'm sure that I've missed some so please feel free to mention them and explain why or why not they deserve to be in Canton.


Obviously, I've listed some players that are somewhat in their prime (Nnamdi, Roethlisberger and Brees) but they should be given some consideration assuming that they continue their stellar careers. Don't be shy to recommend future essential players to the league (Matt Ryan, Adrian Peterson and Patrick Willis)


I'll start it off with the player that seems to be a hot topic with the Hall of Fame...

Donovan McNabb to the Hall of Fame?

Yay or Nay?

wicket
08-21-2009, 05:07 PM
Donovan McNabb to the Hall of Fame?

Yay or Nay?

for me a Nay

Brian Dawkins?

Splat
08-21-2009, 05:09 PM
I think you should add maybe in the mix besides just yay or nay.

As for the thread as is first one that jumps off at me is Brain Waters no way does he get in the HOF and that is a coming from a huge Chiefs fan.

JFLO
08-21-2009, 05:11 PM
I think you should add maybe in the mix besides just yay or nay.

As for the thread as is first one that jumps off at me is Brain Waters no way does he get in the HOF and that is a coming from a huge Chiefs fan.

Wouldn't that just defeat the purpose of deciding yes or no?

Splat
08-21-2009, 05:14 PM
I think some players are borderline hall of famers and you can't just say %100 yes or no.

JFLO
08-21-2009, 05:16 PM
I think some players are borderline hall of famers and you can't just say %100 yes or no.

The selection committee can't write "Maybe" on their Hall of Fame ballots...

Splat
08-21-2009, 05:19 PM
Last time I checked non of us are on the HOF selection committee....:)

JFLO
08-21-2009, 05:20 PM
Last time I checked non of us are on the HOF selection committee....:)

You get the point though...

the decider13
08-21-2009, 05:25 PM
I think Champ is a shoe in, same with Kurt Warner.

I'll give a definate no to Seymour, Taylor, and Ward.

Sniper
08-21-2009, 05:27 PM
Yay or Nay
Terrell Owens WR Buffalo Yes
Jason Taylor LB/DE Miami Yes
Fred Taylor RB New England No
Richard Seymour DE New England Not yet
Alan Faneca G New York Jets No
Ed Reed S Baltimore Yes
Jamal Lewis RB Cleveland No
Troy Polamalu S Pittsburgh Not yet
Hines Ward WR Pittsburgh No
Kevin Mawae C Tennessee No
Antonio Gates TE San Diego Not yet
Brian Waters G Kansas City No
Zach Thomas LB Kansas City No
Lorenzo Neal FB Oakland Yes
Nnamdi Asomough CB Oakland Not yet
Champ Bailey CB Denver Not yet
Brian Dawkins S Denver Yes
Brian Westbrook RB Phiadelphia No
Donovan McNabb QB Philadelphia No
Steve Hutchinson G Minnesota Yes
Brian Urlacher LB Chicago No
Orlando Pace LT Chicago Yes
Kurt Warner QB Arizona Yes
Drew Brees QB New Orleans No
Rhonde Barber CB Tampa Bay Yes
Ben Roethlisberger QB Pittsburgh Not yet
Bill Cowher Coach Yes
Tom Coughlin Coach New York Giants No
Jeff Fisher Coach Tennessee No

CashmoneyDrew
08-21-2009, 05:34 PM
Jeff Fisher will more than likely get in. He'll more than likely coach about 10 more years and he'll get a super bowl. I think all those wins in the next ten years added to his current wins, plus a super bowl will get him in.

RaiderNation
08-21-2009, 05:37 PM
IDK if Nnamdi will get in or not. He has had 3 good seasons(1 he had a lot of picks, others he just completely shut down the WR he was guarding). I think he needs to get more ints for that stat people out there to give him more respect. If can keep it up what hes doing for another 3-4 years then switch to FS for us and play well there, it should be close

E-Man
08-21-2009, 05:42 PM
McNabb yay, Dawkins nay.

Sniper
08-21-2009, 05:43 PM
McNabb yay, Dawkins nay.

Seriously? I have it the other way around.

Thumper
08-21-2009, 05:51 PM
Terrell Owens WR Buffalo- Yes
Jason Taylor LB/DE Miami- Yes
Fred Taylor RB New England- No
Richard Seymour DE New England- Yes, he has been the model for 3-4 ends for nearly a decade and he has been the best player at his spot for nearly a decade. Plus he was the best player on his defense that won 3 superbowls and went undefeated. That is obviously a very simple argument but I think he makes it.
Alan Faneca G New York Jets- No
Ed Reed S Baltimore- Yes if he plays for more than one more year
Jamal Lewis RB Cleveland- No
Troy Polamalu S Pittsburgh- Yes
Hines Ward WR Pittsburgh- No
Kevin Mawae C Tennessee- Yes
Antonio Gates TE San Diego- No
Brian Waters G Kansas City- No
Zach Thomas LB Kansas City- No
Lorenzo Neal FB Oakland- No
Nnamdi Asomough CB Oakland- No
Champ Bailey CB Denver- Yes
Brian Dawkins S Denver- Yes
Brian Westbrook RB Phiadelphia- No way
Donovan McNabb QB Philadelphia- Yes, needs a superbowl to be a shoe-in.
Steve Hutchinson G Minnesota- Yes
Brian Urlacher LB Minnesota- No
Orlando Pace LT Chicago- Yes
Kurt Warner QB Arizona- No, he has a five year gap of virtually no production.
Drew Brees QB New Orleans- Yes, but only if he wins the big one
Rhonde Barber CB Tampa Bay- No
Ben Roethlisberger QB Pittsburgh- Yes
Bill Cowher Coach- No
Tom Coughlin Coach New York Giants- No
Jeff Fisher Coach Tennessee- If he ever wins a superbowl yes. 15 years with one team is incredible.

E-Man
08-21-2009, 05:54 PM
Seriously? I have it the other way around.

Dawkins was great in his prime, but there have been better than him. I don't think he's HoF material, while I think McNabb gets too much heat. If he had been on some of the past Super Bowl teams he would be what people consider a shoe in. I wouldn't count the lack of rings, because it's not all his fault that he doesn't have one.

BeerBaron
08-21-2009, 06:18 PM
There's a former DPotY, DRotY and 6 time pro bowler missing from your list.

Edit: He's listed as a Viking? Insult of insults....good lord.

JFLO
08-21-2009, 06:21 PM
There's a former DPotY, DRotY and 6 time pro bowler missing from your list.

Edit: He's listed as a Viking? Insult of insults....good lord.

Oops!


My b...I'll switch that, haha.

JFLO
08-21-2009, 06:36 PM
Of the ones that I mentioned, here is my two cents---

Yay or Nay
Terrell Owens WR Buffalo---Yes...never won't a super bowl, but you cannont deny his statistics and presence on the field.
Jason Taylor LB/DE Miami---Barely...yes
Fred Taylor RB New England---If he sticks around for 2-3 more years, puts up decent numbers and at least 1 Super Bowl...then yes. Until then...No.
Richard Seymour DE New England---No
Alan Faneca G New York Jets---No, but I don't think he gets as much credit that he should.
Ed Reed S Baltimore---Yes, no contest for me.
Jamal Lewis RB Cleveland---Nope
Troy Polamalu S Pittsburgh---Yes, but Reed is a more decisive yes.
Hines Ward WR Pittsburgh---I'm going to say No, but I think that he'll get in.
Kevin Mawae C Tennessee---Yes, not only is he a factor on the field, but he is a factor off the field with the NFLPA and community work.
Antonio Gates TE San Diego---Not yet...
Brian Waters G Kansas City---I thought he would get more early support, so I guess no?
Zach Thomas LB Kansas City---No
Lorenzo Neal FB Oakland---Yes. One of the more underrated players in the league for the last 3-6 years.
Nnamdi Asomough CB Oakland---Not yet obviously...however, he has the talent to eventually get in.
Champ Bailey CB Denver---No
Brian Dawkins S Denver---One of the toughest to decide on imo. For now, I'm going to say No.
Brian Westbrook RB Phiadelphia---Nope
Donovan McNabb QB Philadelphia---Nope
Steve Hutchinson G Minnesota---Right now, no...but if Adrian Peterson continues his success, then yes.
Brian Urlacher LB CHICAGO!!!---Sorry BeerBaron, but I'm going to say no for now...
Orlando Pace LT Chicago---For some reason, I find Pace a tougher decision than others...I'll say yes though
Kurt Warner QB Arizona---No...I totally agree with Thumper on this one
Drew Brees QB New Orleans---Not yet
Rhonde Barber CB Tampa Bay---IMO, he is a HOF. One of the more underrated players, let alone corners in this league. He is a surefire zone corner and a great tackler.
Ben Roethlisberger QB Pittsburgh---Yes, eventually
Bill Cowher Coach---Yes...his tenure and development of players at Pittsburgh, not to mention the SB win
Tom Coughlin Coach New York Giants---Not yet, but I think he'll get there with another SB win sometime.
Jeff Fisher Coach Tennessee---Unless he coaches another 5-10 years with Tennessee...No.

bernbabybern820
08-21-2009, 07:30 PM
I'm curious why you put in T.O. but forgot to put in Moss?

Todd Bertuzzi
08-21-2009, 07:36 PM
How can you say yes to Ed Reed, but no to Dawkins?

Bucs_Rule
08-21-2009, 07:42 PM
Warner and McNabb are polar opposites

Warner was dominate for a few seasons, went to 3 SuperBowls, winning one. Saying he did nothing in between is generous but lots of the media don't talk about that when considering him. He does have a great story, likeable guy, like it or not it helps. The NFL tries to build legends, a great rag to riches story with great accomplished does that.

McNab consistently had great seasons and lead his team to 5 Conference Championships, only going to 1 SuperBowl. He's never dominate, always considered great but a step below the best.

The NFL tries to build legends, a great rag to riches story capped off by 2 MVP, 3 SuperBowl appearances and1 SuperBowl win and MVP. That pretty much sells itself, thats a hollywood story. Whenever you read of HoF QBs first thing is SuperBowls and MVP awards. How you did for the rest of your career comes second, if their is time.

For that reason McNabb is really hurt. No MVPs, 1 SuperBowl appearnce. For some reason going to a conference championship isn't consider no where near going to a SuperBowl. When you mentioned his 5 appearnces its always followed by he lost 4, can't win big games. Jim Kelly loses 4 SuperBowls and he isn't critized for losing all 4.

McNabb has no chance as it stands, when you look at his resume nothing stands out like Warner. It doesn't have what QBs need to get in. Warner my geuss will sneak in. It is such a great story, all businesses love great stories. When will the NFL ever get a story like that again?

Does he deserve it, maybe. Is it great for the NFL, absolutely.

scottyboy
08-21-2009, 07:42 PM
for future:

Osi
Britt
Raymell baby

3 future HOF'ers right there.

Coughlin might with another ring.

and screw Ray Guy, FEAGLES FOR HOF!!!!!

and could you imagine if Eli got in? hell, Namath's in. so you never know! :)

senormysterioso
08-21-2009, 07:51 PM
I think some players are borderline hall of famers and you can't just say %100 yes or no.

I sort of agree with you, it's hard to give a definite yes or no on a lot of these guys you've listed because their careers aren't over, or in some cases even close to over. Guys like Ben Roethlisberger, Drew Brees, Richard Seymour, Steve Hutchinson, etc. If they play another 5-8 years at the level that they've played at thus far in the career, absolutely they're pro bowlers. If they stink it up, for another 2 years and are out of the league then no they're not. If somebody put a poll up after Shaun Alexander's MVP season if he'd be a probowler or not, I bet a lot of people would have said yes. If you asked that question now people would look at you like you had a wiener growing out of your forehead.

yo123
08-21-2009, 07:55 PM
How can you say yes to Ed Reed, but no to Dawkins?


Because Dawkins was never as good as Reed is right now.

Nalej
08-21-2009, 08:06 PM
Terrell Owens WR Buffalo- Y
Jason Taylor LB/DE Miami- Y
Fred Taylor RB New England- N
Richard Seymour DE New England- Y
Alan Faneca G New York Jets- N
Ed Reed S Baltimore- Y
Jamal Lewis RB Cleveland- N
Troy Polamalu S Pittsburgh- Y
Hines Ward WR Pittsburgh- N
Kevin Mawae C Tennessee- Y
Antonio Gates TE San Diego- NY
Brian Waters G Kansas City- N
Zach Thomas LB Kansas City- N
Lorenzo Neal FB Oakland- Y
Nnamdi Asomough CB Oakland- NY
Champ Bailey CB Denver- Y
Brian Dawkins S Denver- Y
Brian Westbrook RB Phiadelphia- N
Donovan McNabb QB Philadelphia- Y
Steve Hutchinson G Minnesota- Y
Brian Urlacher LB CHICAGO!!!- Y
Orlando Pace LT Chicago- Y
Kurt Warner QB Arizona- Y
Drew Brees QB New Orleans- NY
Rhonde Barber CB Tampa Bay- N
Ben Roethlisberger QB Pittsburgh- N
Bill Cowher Coach- Y
Tom Coughlin Coach New York Giants- N
Jeff Fisher Coach Tennessee- N (only if he wins SB)


Y -YES
N- NO
NY- NOT YET

scottyboy
08-21-2009, 08:07 PM
seymour a HOFer? pssh yea, ok

that sounded ign'ant on my part:

I dont see a 3-4 DE getting in. I think you need numbers, which being a 3-4DE is hard to put up. It'll be interesting to see how the voters see it, but I dont think they'll put him in.

Nalej
08-21-2009, 08:10 PM
Yea... name a better 34 DE

scottyboy
08-21-2009, 08:14 PM
Yea... name a better 34 DE

so he's the best 3-4 DE in the game. that equals HOF? he doesnt have HOF stats, just the fact he's been a very good 3-4 DE. it'sthe voters choice if they want to see that his position limits his stats. but see, i changed my response to something with actual reasoning while you came at me with this gem of a line...*sigh*

P-L
08-21-2009, 08:55 PM
Yay or Nay
Terrell Owens WR Buffalo YES
Jason Taylor LB/DE Miami NO
Fred Taylor RB New England NO
Richard Seymour DE New England NO
Alan Faneca G New York Jets NO
Ed Reed S Baltimore NOT YET
Jamal Lewis RB Cleveland NO
Troy Polamalu S Pittsburgh NO
Hines Ward WR Pittsburgh NO
Kevin Mawae C Tennessee MAYBE
Antonio Gates TE San Diego NOT YET
Brian Waters G Kansas City YES
Zach Thomas LB Kansas City NO
Lorenzo Neal FB Oakland NO
Nnamdi Asomough CB Oakland NOT YET
Champ Bailey CB Denver YES
Brian Dawkins S Denver MAYBE
Brian Westbrook RB Phiadelphia NO
Donovan McNabb QB Philadelphia NO
Steve Hutchinson G Minnesota MAYBE
Brian Urlacher LB Chicago NO
Orlando Pace LT Chicago YES
Kurt Warner QB Arizona NO
Drew Brees QB New Orleans NOT YET
Rhonde Barber CB Tampa Bay NO
Ben Roethlisberger QB Pittsburgh NOT YET
Bill Cowher Coach MAYBE
Tom Coughlin Coach New York Giants NO
Jeff Fisher Coach Tennessee MAYBE

These are the players who I consider "Shoe-Ins"

Tom Brady QB New England YES
Peyton Manning QB Indianapolis YES
Tony Gonzalez TE Atlanta YES
Ray Lewis LB Baltimore YES
Marvin Harrison WR Free Agent MAYBE
Derrick Brooks LB Free Agent MAYBE
Walter Jones LT Seattle YES
Jonathan Ogden LT YES
Larry Allen G YES
Brett Favre QB Minnesota YES
LaDainian Tomlinson RB San Diego YES
Torry Holt WR Jacksonville NO
Isaac Bruce WR San Francisco NO
Junior Seau LB Free Agent NO
Adam Vinatieri K Indianapolis Colts MAYBE
Bill Belichick Coach New England YES
Mike Shannahan Coach YES

Opinions in bold. As some may be able to tell, I am picky with who I think should be in the Hall of Fame.

awfullyquiet
08-21-2009, 10:41 PM
Terrell Owens WR Buffalo - Yes
Jason Taylor LB/DE Miami - Yes
Fred Taylor RB New England - Yes
Richard Seymour DE New England - No
Alan Faneca G New York Jets - No
Ed Reed S Baltimore - Yes
Jamal Lewis RB Cleveland - No
Troy Polamalu S Pittsburgh - Not yet.
Hines Ward WR Pittsburgh - no
Kevin Mawae C Tennessee - No
Antonio Gates TE San Diego - No
Brian Waters G Kansas City - Yes
Zach Thomas LB Kansas City - No
Lorenzo Neal FB Oakland - Yes
Nnamdi Asomough CB Oakland - Not yet, depends on his tenure in oakland
Champ Bailey CB Denver - Yes
Brian Dawkins S Denver- Yes
Brian Westbrook RB Phiadelphia - Not yet
Donovan McNabb QB Philadelphia - No
Steve Hutchinson G Minnesota - Yes
Brian Urlacher LB Chicago - Yes
Orlando Pace LT Chicago - Yes
Kurt Warner QB Arizona - Yes
Drew Brees QB New Orleans - Yes
Rhonde Barber CB Tampa Bay - No
Ben Roethlisberger QB Pittsburgh - Not yet
Bill Cowher Coach - Yes
Tom Coughlin Coach New York Giants - No
Jeff Fisher Coach Tennessee - Yes

These are the players who I consider "Shoe-Ins"

Isaac Bruce WR San Francisco - No

Thats the only one I really disagree with... Isaac Bruce was always second banana to Torry Holt for a reason...

Saints 4 Lyfe
08-21-2009, 10:45 PM
the biggest debate should be why isn't Rickey Jackson in the HOF when he has better stats than half of the people at his position and has a SB ring.

JFLO
08-21-2009, 10:48 PM
On the thought of Randy Moss...

I just flat out forgot to put him in. I didn't forget him because I was deciding on whether or not to list him as a "shoe-in" or a borderline type guy.

Right now, I think I would put him in as a shoe-in, assuming he stays with the Patriots for a couple more years and puts up consistent numbers.

SuperMcGee
08-21-2009, 10:53 PM
Bill Cowher Coach- No

Jeff Fisher Coach Tennessee- If he ever wins a superbowl yes. 15 years with one team is incredible.

I'd like to see some elaboration at this point.

yo123
08-21-2009, 11:01 PM
Alright, the point of this thread is to debate whether or not certain players will be inducted into the Hall of Fame after they retire.

There are some players that are automatic "shoe-ins" (Brady, Manning, Tomlinson). However, there are some players that are walking the line between Yay and Nay (McNabb, Warner).

So debate on whether or not these players will eventually reach Canton...feel free to discuss any player at anytime.

If needed, here is a list of players that can be considered:

Yay or Nay
Terrell Owens WR Buffalo
Jason Taylor LB/DE Miami
Fred Taylor RB New England
Richard Seymour DE New England
Alan Faneca G New York Jets
Ed Reed S Baltimore
Jamal Lewis RB Cleveland
Troy Polamalu S Pittsburgh
Hines Ward WR Pittsburgh
Kevin Mawae C Tennessee
Antonio Gates TE San Diego
Brian Waters G Kansas City
Zach Thomas LB Kansas City
Lorenzo Neal FB Oakland
Nnamdi Asomough CB Oakland
Champ Bailey CB Denver
Brian Dawkins S Denver
Brian Westbrook RB Phiadelphia
Donovan McNabb QB Philadelphia
Steve Hutchinson G Minnesota
Brian Urlacher LB CHICAGO!!!
Orlando Pace LT Chicago
Kurt Warner QB Arizona
Drew Brees QB New Orleans
Rhonde Barber CB Tampa Bay
Ben Roethlisberger QB Pittsburgh
Bill Cowher Coach
Tom Coughlin Coach New York Giants
Jeff Fisher Coach Tennessee

These are the players who I consider "Shoe-Ins"

Tom Brady QB New England
Peyton Manning QB Indianapolis
Tony Gonzalez TE Atlanta
Ray Lewis LB Baltimore
Marvin Harrison WR Free Agent
Derrick Brooks LB Free Agent
Walter Jones LT Seattle
Jonathan Ogden LT
Larry Allen G
Brett Favre QB Minnesota
LaDainian Tomlinson RB San Diego
Torry Holt WR Jacksonville
Isaac Bruce WR San Francisco
Junior Seau LB Free Agent???
Adam Vinatieri K Indianapolis Colts (the dude won two SBs with kicks)
Bill Belichick Coach New England
Mike Shannahan Coach
Tony Dungy Coach (I think the fact that he was the first black coach to win the Super Bowl will seal it off)
Bill Parcells Coach (Honestly don't know if he is already in, I doubt it)


I'm done listing them and I'm sure that I've missed some so please feel free to mention them and explain why or why not they deserve to be in Canton.


Obviously, I've listed some players that are somewhat in their prime (Nnamdi, Roethlisberger and Brees) but they should be given some consideration assuming that they continue their stellar careers. Don't be shy to recommend future essential players to the league (Matt Ryan, Adrian Peterson and Patrick Willis)


I'll start it off with the player that seems to be a hot topic with the Hall of Fame...

Donovan McNabb to the Hall of Fame?

Yay or Nay?


The guys in bold I would put in, obviously for guys like Nhamdi and Brees I'm assuming they continue to play at this level for a few more seasons.

yo123
08-21-2009, 11:03 PM
On the thought of Randy Moss...

I just flat out forgot to put him in. I didn't forget him because I was deciding on whether or not to list him as a "shoe-in" or a borderline type guy.

Right now, I think I would put him in as a shoe-in, assuming he stays with the Patriots for a couple more years and puts up consistent numbers.


If Moss retired today I'd vote him in without any doubt in my mind. When it's all said and done he'll be at least the third best receiver ever.

Nalej
08-22-2009, 07:35 AM
so he's the best 3-4 DE in the game. that equals HOF? he doesnt have HOF stats, just the fact he's been a very good 3-4 DE. it'sthe voters choice if they want to see that his position limits his stats. but see, i changed my response to something with actual reasoning while you came at me with this gem of a line...*sigh*

You added to yours- so I'll add to mine as well now.

If his position doesn't require him to put up "stats" then why should he be penalized for it?
1st off- stats don't always tell the whole story and are often over-rated.
Still- he has anchored the D of a 3 time Super Bowl team.
What more do you want from the guy. He's done his job better then anyone in the game

Mr. Stiller
08-22-2009, 09:08 AM
I'd like to see some elaboration at this point.

I found that humorous too.

How many seasons were there between 1992 and 2006 (Hint: 15)

wicket
08-22-2009, 09:53 AM
Terrell Owens WR Buffalo - Yes
Jason Taylor LB/DE Miami - No
Fred Taylor RB New England - No
Richard Seymour DE New England - Yes
Alan Faneca G New York Jets - No
Ed Reed S Baltimore - Yes
Jamal Lewis RB Cleveland - Yes
Troy Polamalu S Pittsburgh - Not yet.
Hines Ward WR Pittsburgh - no
Kevin Mawae C Tennessee - No
Antonio Gates TE San Diego - Not yet
Brian Waters G Kansas City - Yes
Zach Thomas LB Kansas City - No
Lorenzo Neal FB Oakland - Not yet
Nnamdi Asomough CB Oakland - Not yet (if he keeps playing @ this level for a few more years than easily yes)
Champ Bailey CB Denver - Yes
Brian Dawkins S Denver- Yes
Brian Westbrook RB Phiadelphia - No
Donovan McNabb QB Philadelphia - No
Steve Hutchinson G Minnesota - Yes
Brian Urlacher LB Chicago - Not Yet (if he can get up to his level from a few years ago for 1/2 more seasons than prolly yes, closer to no for me atm)
Orlando Pace LT Chicago - Yes
Kurt Warner QB Arizona - No (the non-production hole is to big, only productive on very productive teams with star receivers and such)
Drew Brees QB New Orleans - Not Yet (needs to win a ring or a (few) MVP('s) I think, Has a good chance though)
Rhonde Barber CB Tampa Bay - No
Ben Roethlisberger QB Pittsburgh - Not yet
Bill Cowher Coach - Yes
Tom Coughlin Coach New York Giants - No
Jeff Fisher Coach Tennessee - Yes

These are the players who I consider "Shoe-Ins"

Isaac Bruce WR San Francisco - No

Thats the only one I really disagree with... Isaac Bruce was always second banana to Torry Holt for a reason...

yeah i stole that bottom comment of AQ

P-L
08-22-2009, 11:13 AM
Why should Jason Taylor be in the Hall of Fame when guys like Kevin Greene and Chris Doleman (who were just as productive, if not more) are not?

aNYtitan
08-22-2009, 12:12 PM
What about LaDanian Tomlinson? For several years he looked like a shoe in, now...not so apparent

Gay Ork Wang
08-22-2009, 12:15 PM
id say he is. His worst season was still above average.

yo123
08-22-2009, 03:18 PM
LT is in without a doubt. He was the best running back in football for about 5 years.

Geo
08-22-2009, 03:26 PM
Terrell Owens WR Buffalo YES
He and Randy Moss are the top two receivers of their era.

Jason Taylor LB/DE Miami NO
Has the stats of a HOF, but not the impact.

Fred Taylor RB New England NO
If all it took to get into the HOF was stat-compiling, he'd still be behind his former Jags teammates Keenan McCardell and Jimmy Smith. When the hell are people going to understand that there is a difference between the Jags Ring of Honor and the Pro Football Hall of Fame? Cripes.

Richard Seymour DE New England NO
For a lineman, you either have to be astoundingly great for a period of time or great for a longer period of time. Neither for Seymour yet.

Alan Faneca G New York Jets NO
He's been a very good player in this league. Hall of Fame? Not quite. Maybe if he plays well for 3 or more seasons.

Ed Reed S Baltimore YES
Name a better safety in his era. One of the best ever.

Jamal Lewis RB Cleveland HELL NO
GTFO with his.

Troy Polamalu S Pittsburgh NO
4 or 5 more Polamalu seasons and he's in.

Hines Ward WR Pittsburgh NO
Is he being slighted? Well, partly yes. But better or as good receivers as him will be slighted too. Ward was a better receiver than Marvin Harrison, fyi.

Kevin Mawae C Tennessee NO
Very good, but I wouldn't vote HOF. Especially as I have a feeling he has some locker room lawyer to him.

Antonio Gates TE San Diego NO
Not even close, he's got a long way to go. Come on. This is the Pro Football Hall of Fame, not the Fantasy Football Hall of Fame.

Brian Waters G Kansas City NO
His former teammates Willie Roaf and Will Shields are the HOFers.

Zach Thomas LB Kansas City UNDECIDED
I think Thomas might be the most difficult candidate to consider.

Lorenzo Neal FB Oakland NO
He blocked for a 1000-yd rusher for over a dozen seasons. Big freaking whoop. His career was mainly with Eddie George and LaDainian Tomlinson, a very good back and an exceptional back respectively. Did he add anything else? Not much. Hey he can go to the Chargers Ring of Honor, but not the HOF in my book.

Nnamdi Asomough CB Oakland YES
I said it over a year ago, Asomugha is much closer to the HOF than Bailey ever was. Because Asomugha plays at a level that is the best Bailey ever played, that is a HOF level of cornerback play, and he's done it for three seasons now. That is the HOF.

Champ Bailey CB Denver NO
But he will get voted in. One of the most overrated players of his era, except for a career year in 2006 where he played out of his mind. Always prone to give it up deep like a pornstar with no gag reflex. Charles Woodson is more of a HOF cornerback than Bailey. Bailey was considered the best cornerback when the position wasn't very strong, well that doesn't make you a Hall of ******* Famer.

Brian Dawkins S Denver YES
Eventually. Unlike Donovan McNabb, he was one of the real leaders and didn't choke in the playoffs. Dawkins shouldn't be penalized for not having a ring.

Brian Westbrook RB Phiadelphia NO
Love Westy but he needs more. Hopefully he can stay healthy enough to do it.

Donovan McNabb QB Philadelphia NO
Only won the NFC East when it was at its weakest in 20 years, and when the NFC was weak, couldn't win a NFC Championship Game until they faced the 2004 Atlanta Falcons at home in Philly. And the key to the Eagles success was Jim Johnson and the defense. Put the success and Championship Games in context. If he can win a ring in the next two years, that might change things.

Steve Hutchinson G Minnesota YES
Won't wait as long as Waters.

Brian Urlacher LB CHICAGO!!! YES
He has the name recognition, he'll have the stats, was a two-dimensional impact linebacker, and he led his team to a Super Bowl. What more can you ask of a LB? He delivered.

Orlando Pace LT Chicago YES
I could be off on this, but I'm inclined to say yes. He won't have the longevity but in my mind his period of greatness exceeds that of other LTs like Jonathan Ogden and Walter Jones. And he has the contribution to the game as part of the Greatest Show on Turf Rams.

Kurt Warner QB Arizona YES
I would have said no before last season's postseason, I did say no in fact, but I'm starting to reconsider. Yes he's played with amazing weapons, but even with that, the man took St. Louis and Arizona to Super Bowls. The only playoff games he's ever lost as a starter are two Super Bowls, and in both those games led game-winning drives in the 4th quarter but had the opponent winning the game at the very last second.

Drew Brees QB New Orleans NO
Right now now, no. A few years from now, if he can keep this up, yes. Dan Fouts of his era, and there's still the chance for more playoff success for Drew Breezy.

Rhonde Barber CB Tampa Bay YES
I don't like voting Barber in, but what's the argument for not voting in him? I can't find it. Yeah he's been overrated the last few years, but we're talking about his post-prime career. And it hasn't been awful. He has a career of making plays.

Ben Roethlisberger QB Pittsburgh NO
Are you kidding me with this ****? Come on.

Bill Cowher Coach NO
I know I'm penalizing him because he never really had a quarterback until Roethlisberger, but still. I don't see Hall of Fame coach in Cowher. Hell, he was never the most important coach on his own sideline, that was Dick LeBeau and it's not even close by two miles.

Tom Coughlin Coach New York Giants NO
Come on. Wait, why Coughlin and not Mike Holmgren? Holmgren is much much closer to the HOF than Coughlin ever will be. Well Coughlin can always visit if he wants.

Jeff Fisher Coach Tennessee NO
He's been a good coach for a long time. Titans Ring of Honor.

Vox Populi
08-22-2009, 03:30 PM
Its hard for me to call Brian Dawkins a hall of famer when I have a tough time calling Rodney Harrison one when Harrison was, at least in my opinion, the better safety over the span of their respective careers.

Then there are the other two safeties that come into the discussion, Ed Reed and John Lynch, where do they stack up? I would say that Harrison has the best chance out of all of them and pending Ed Reed's longevity in the league, he would be number two with Dawkins third and Lynch last.

I'd say that Dawkins definitely gets in, but it will take him quite some time to get in there, like 10-15 years after he is eligible for induction. I don't think Lynch will ever get in and Reed should get in 3-10 years after becoming eligible if he does retire earlier than most safeties like people are expecting right now.

scottyboy
08-22-2009, 03:35 PM
You added to yours- so I'll add to mine as well now.

If his position doesn't require him to put up "stats" then why should he be penalized for it?
1st off- stats don't always tell the whole story and are often over-rated.
Still- he has anchored the D of a 3 time Super Bowl team.
What more do you want from the guy. He's done his job better then anyone in the game

that doesnt matter. for a DL you have to be dominant, not just good. Even though his stats took a hit playing in the 3-4, he doesn't have dominant numbers. He's a very good player who played on very good teams. Stats will matter. This isn't a pro bowl vote, it's the Hall of Fame. Guys in the HOF are elite. Elite players put up big numbers in a 3-4. When I create the Hall of Very Good, I have Seymour in there.

GB12
08-22-2009, 04:01 PM
Yay or Nay
Terrell Owens WR Buffalo Yes
Jason Taylor LB/DE Miami No
Fred Taylor RB New England No
Richard Seymour DE New England No
Alan Faneca G New York Jets No
Ed Reed S Baltimore Yes
Jamal Lewis RB Cleveland No
Troy Polamalu S Pittsburgh No
Hines Ward WR Pittsburgh No
Kevin Mawae C Tennessee No
Antonio Gates TE San Diego No
Brian Waters G Kansas City Yes
Zach Thomas LB Kansas City No
Lorenzo Neal FB Oakland No
Nnamdi Asomough CB Oakland Yes
Champ Bailey CB Denver Yes
Brian Dawkins S Denver No
Brian Westbrook RB Phiadelphia No
Donovan McNabb QB Philadelphia No
Steve Hutchinson G Minnesota Yes
Brian Urlacher LB CHICAGO!!! Yes
Orlando Pace LT Chicago Yes
Kurt Warner QB Arizona No
Drew Brees QB New Orleans No
Rhonde Barber CB Tampa Bay No
Ben Roethlisberger QB Pittsburgh No
Bill Cowher Coach No
Tom Coughlin Coach New York Giants No
Jeff Fisher Coach Tennessee No

These are the players who I consider "Shoe-Ins"

Tom Brady QB New England Yes
Peyton Manning QB Indianapolis Yes
Tony Gonzalez TE Atlanta Yes
Ray Lewis LB Baltimore Yes
Marvin Harrison WR Free Agent No
Derrick Brooks LB Free Agent Yes
Walter Jones LT Seattle Yes
Jonathan Ogden LT Yes
Larry Allen G Yes
Brett Favre QB Minnesota Yes
LaDainian Tomlinson RB San Diego Yes
Torry Holt WR Jacksonville No
Isaac Bruce WR San Francisco No
Junior Seau LB Free Agent??? No
Adam Vinatieri K Indianapolis Colts No
Bill Belichick Coach New England Yes
Mike Shannahan Coach Yes
Tony Dungy Coach Yes
Bill Parcells Coach Yes

M.O.T.H.
08-22-2009, 04:02 PM
LT is as big of a lock as there is. Come on, now.

He's two years away from being top 5 all-time in rushing yards. He's already 2nd all-time in rushing TDs. Also 4th all-time in rushing yards per game. He'll be top 5 in yard from scrimmage. He's one of the better backs to ever play the game.

Rob S
08-22-2009, 04:03 PM
P-L, I am curious as to why you are only a maybe to vote for Derrik Brooks. I think he is a sure fire HOFer.

Nalej
08-22-2009, 04:06 PM
that doesnt matter. for a DL you have to be dominant, not just good. Even though his stats took a hit playing in the 3-4, he doesn't have dominant numbers. He's a very good player who played on very good teams. Stats will matter. This isn't a pro bowl vote, it's the Hall of Fame. Guys in the HOF are elite. Elite players put up big numbers in a 3-4. When I create the Hall of Very Good, I have Seymour in there.


Please, let me know who in the HOF put up elite stats as a 34 DE.

Nalej
08-22-2009, 04:09 PM
Marvin Harrison No

I'd like to know why. I always figured he was a lock.

M.O.T.H.
08-22-2009, 04:15 PM
Why no for Seau? He was one of the greatest of his era, a 12 time pro bowler. It's difficult to find "official" tackle numbers but, he's a top 3 tackler off all-time, numbers wise. Some say #1 all-time. 60 or so sacks in there. I say yes to the hall for sure.

Nalej
08-22-2009, 04:18 PM
^^^ agree....

scottyboy
08-22-2009, 04:37 PM
Please, let me know who in the HOF put up elite stats as a 34 DE.

let me know which 3-4 DE's are in the Hall of Fame...

it's VERY difficult for them to get in.

Thumper
08-22-2009, 04:42 PM
Please, let me know who in the HOF put up elite stats as a 34 DE.

Does Bruce smith ring a bell? You know, the alltime sack leader?

Seamus2602
08-22-2009, 04:44 PM
Terrell Owens WR Buffalo - Yes
Jason Taylor LB/DE Miami - Yes
Fred Taylor RB New England - Yes, not First Ballot
Richard Seymour DE New England - No
Alan Faneca G New York Jets - No
Ed Reed S Baltimore - Yes
Jamal Lewis RB Cleveland - No
Troy Polamalu S Pittsburgh - Yes
Hines Ward WR Pittsburgh - No
Kevin Mawae C Tennessee - Yes
Antonio Gates TE San Diego - Needs more seasons healthy.
Brian Waters G Kansas City - Too many other Guards in his time period, and the PFHOF underrates Guards
Zach Thomas LB Kansas City - Yes
Lorenzo Neal FB Oakland - No, they don't send his type of Fullback
Nnamdi Asomough CB Oakland - Needs a few more seasons at this level to do so
Champ Bailey CB Denver - Yes
Brian Dawkins S Denver - Yes
Brian Westbrook RB Phiadelphia - No
Donovan McNabb QB Philadelphia - Needs a Superbowl
Steve Hutchinson G Minnesota - Not a first ballot, but yeah
Brian Urlacher LB CHICAGO!!! - No
Orlando Pace LT Chicago - Yes
Kurt Warner QB Arizona - Yes
Drew Brees QB New Orleans - Not yet, needs a Superbowl
Rhonde Barber CB Tampa Bay - Yes
Ben Roethlisberger QB Pittsburgh - Not yet, but going in the right direction
Bill Cowher Coach - Yes
Tom Coughlin Coach New York Giants - No
Jeff Fisher Coach Tennessee - As a contributor, not as a Coach

scottyboy
08-22-2009, 05:03 PM
Does Bruce smith ring a bell? You know, the alltime sack leader?

ah yes, he did play in a 3-4 for a bit. good call.

the HOF is for dominant players. Seymour is a good/great player on a good/great team.

JFLO
08-22-2009, 06:10 PM
After looking at some of these, I'm really enjoying the love that Lorenzo Neal is receiving.

Also, I would like to know why Marvin Harrison isn't getting a unanimous choice as well as guys like Torry Holt and Isaac Bruce. I would be more inclined to choose Holt over Bruce, but I think both deserved to get in.

wicket
08-22-2009, 06:13 PM
After looking at some of these, I'm really enjoying the love that Lorenzo Neal is receiving.

Also, I would like to know why Marvin Harrison isn't getting a unanimous choice as well as guys like Torry Holt and Isaac Bruce. I would be more inclined to choose Holt over Bruce, but I think both deserved to get in.

the problem with for instance bruce is that there are a whole lot of receivers atm that can have a shout

Michigan
08-22-2009, 06:18 PM
Randy Moss isn't in the original post...

Also, what do you guys think about Edgerrin James?

EDIT-
What about Charles Woodson? (5x pro-bowler, 4x all-pro)

And which of these 3 WR's has the best shot: Steve Smith, Chad Johnson, or Reggie Wayne?

wicket
08-22-2009, 06:28 PM
Randy Moss isn't in the original post...

Also, what do you guys think about Edgerrin James?

BIG no for me for edge

Nalej
08-22-2009, 07:40 PM
Does Bruce smith ring a bell? You know, the alltime sack leader?

Not a 34 DE. Try again. Playing it "a bit" doesn't count when he was a 43 DE for the majority of his career

JFLO
08-22-2009, 08:13 PM
the problem with for instance bruce is that there are a whole lot of receivers atm that can have a shout

Those current receivers aren't the current career leader in yards, receptions and a super bowl win...

FYI, I didn't look up those stats, but the last time I checked, he was the leader in both.

I know there are a lot of players that have that honor before retiring but Bruce also has a Super Bowl victory to go along with those stats, so...

scottyboy
08-22-2009, 08:20 PM
Not a 34 DE. Try again. Playing it "a bit" doesn't count when he was a 43 DE for the majority of his career

i dont really count him all too much as a 3-4 DE. But again, find me a 3-4 DE in the HOF.

Shiver
08-22-2009, 08:50 PM
I hope Fred Taylor doesnt make it. He was a nice player, but he was never at the top of his position.

BlindSite
08-22-2009, 09:17 PM
I hope Fred Taylor doesnt make it. He was a nice player, but he was never at the top of his position.

Agreed, he was never a dominant force, just a long life running back.

Lorenzo Neal ought to be a lock too.

Shiver
08-22-2009, 10:24 PM
What about LaDanian Tomlinson? For several years he looked like a shoe in, now...not so apparent


Are you serious? Really? There aren't five Running Backs who have a better resume than LaDainian Tomlinson. And he will probably play at least a few more seasons to get up to 4th in rushing yards and push Emmitt Smith for the TD record.

aNYtitan
08-23-2009, 12:09 AM
Agreed, he was never a dominant force, just a long life running back.

Lorenzo Neal ought to be a lock too.

I'm thinking that Neal is a lock, I can't think of a RB he blocked for that didn't get a 1,000 yard season with him. Name a FB that you would take over him

DoughBoy
08-23-2009, 12:17 AM
Jeff has another 10-15 years coaching in him. He is a lock.

Saints 4 Lyfe
08-23-2009, 12:35 AM
Lorenzo Neal FB Oakland NO
He blocked for a 1000-yd rusher for over a dozen seasons. Big freaking whoop. His career was mainly with Eddie George and LaDainian Tomlinson, a very good back and an exceptional back respectively. Did he add anything else? Not much. Hey he can go to the Chargers Ring of Honor, but not the HOF in my book.wow you just made the case for him. how else is a FB supposed to make an impact? that's his job, it's what he's drafted and paid to do and he's arguably the best ever to do it.

he gets in without a doubt, not first ballot maybe but he gets in.

wonderbredd24
08-23-2009, 12:42 AM
Yay or Nay
Terrell Owens WR Buffalo - Yes
Jason Taylor LB/DE Miami - No
Fred Taylor RB New England - No
Richard Seymour DE New England - Yes
Alan Faneca G New York Jets - No
Ed Reed S Baltimore - Yes
Jamal Lewis RB Cleveland - No
Troy Polamalu S Pittsburgh - Not yet
Hines Ward WR Pittsburgh - No
Kevin Mawae C Tennessee - Yes
Antonio Gates TE San Diego - Not yet
Brian Waters G Kansas City - No
Zach Thomas LB Kansas City - No
Lorenzo Neal FB Oakland - No
Nnamdi Asomough CB Oakland - Not yet
Champ Bailey CB Denver - Yes
Brian Dawkins S Denver - No
Brian Westbrook RB Phiadelphia - No
Donovan McNabb QB Philadelphia - No
Steve Hutchinson G Minnesota - Yes
Brian Urlacher LB CHICAGO!!! - No
Orlando Pace LT Chicago - Yes
Kurt Warner QB Arizona - Yes
Drew Brees QB New Orleans - Not yet
Rhonde Barber CB Tampa Bay - No
Ben Roethlisberger QB Pittsburgh - Not yet
Bill Cowher Coach - No
Tom Coughlin Coach New York Giants - No
Jeff Fisher Coach Tennessee - No

Something to keep in mind... there are only about 250 members of the Pro Football Hall of Fame thus far.

wonderbredd24
08-23-2009, 12:43 AM
I'm thinking that Neal is a lock, I can't think of a RB he blocked for that didn't get a 1,000 yard season with him. Name a FB that you would take over him

Jim Brown, Cleveland Browns

Ravens1991
08-23-2009, 01:08 AM
Neal would have had a 1,000 yarder this season if the Ravens didnt have 3 quality backs.


He is a god darn beast but IDK if he will get in just like would a K ever get in

Shiver
08-23-2009, 01:52 AM
People like McNabb and Brees will not be remembered by the time they come up for the vote, unless they win a Super Bowl before they are through. I cannot see them getting in. This era has five that stand above the rest: Warner, Brady, Manning, Favre. I do not think there is really room for another.

Gay Ork Wang
08-23-2009, 06:54 AM
This era has five that stand above the rest: Warner, Brady, Manning, Favre. I do not think there is really room for another.
uhm what??

Gay Ork Wang
08-23-2009, 06:56 AM
Whats with Olin Kreutz? Just wondering

Caddy
08-23-2009, 07:22 AM
I'm only going to comment on Ronde Barber as he is the only player whose career I am familiar with for his whole career.

Ronde is the only player in the history of the NFL to have put up 20 interceptions and 20 sacks. A constant playmaker who definitely has the statistics to make it into the HoF.

To be honest the only reason I can see him missing out is due to the scheme he plays in. Playing in the zone his whole career isn't necessarily the best thing if you want to be in the HoF.

Gay Ork Wang
08-23-2009, 07:29 AM
I'm only going to comment on Ronde Barber as he is the only player whose career I am familiar with for his whole career.

Ronde is the only player in the history of the NFL to have put up 20 interceptions and 20 sacks. A constant playmaker who definitely has the statistics to make it into the HoF.

To be honest the only reason I can see him missing out is due to the scheme he plays in. Playing in the zone his whole career isn't necessarily the best thing if you want to be in the HoF.
i think you mean CB? cause both Dawkins and Harrison alone have that many sacks/ints

Nalej
08-23-2009, 07:54 AM
Yea, R. Harrison actually is the only person to have 30/30, I believe.
B. Dawkins has 20 ints and 30 sacks.
They're both safeties though. Maybe he's the only CB

TACKLE
08-23-2009, 02:51 PM
ah yes, he did play in a 3-4 for a bit. good call.

the HOF is for dominant players. Seymour is a good/great player on a good/great team.

Richard Seymour was the best player on the defense that won three Super Bowls. IMO, he is dominant player. Other than Brady, Seymour is the best player those Super Bowl teams. The voters put a lot into players who have made a big comtirbution to championships and Seymour certaintly fits the bill.

Splat
08-23-2009, 03:04 PM
I can't believe people are saying Brian Waters is going to the HOF I have watched pretty much every game he has played in being a Chiefs fan and the guy is not a HOF.

He is a very solid player even great at times but having Willie Roaf next to him for four years made him look alot better then he ever was Chiefs HOF sure NFL HOF no way.

And to the guy that asked will a kicker ever get in there is all ready one in Jan Stenerud
(http://www.profootballhof.com/hof/member.aspx?PlayerId=203)

Geo
08-23-2009, 03:55 PM
You would know better than I, Splat.

I mistook him as being on Will Shields' level. Shields and Roaf are definite HOFers imo.

Waters probably gets left out as the third man anyways.

I'll edit my earlier post.

Saints 4 Lyfe
08-23-2009, 04:25 PM
He is a god darn beast but IDK if he will get in just like would a K ever get inThis guy is a shoe in.

http://www.saintsfanatics.com/images/morten.jpg

AntoinCD
08-23-2009, 04:41 PM
Yay or Nay

Terrell Owens WR Buffalo---Yes...based on stats alone and the fact he has been dominant everywhere he has gone.
Jason Taylor LB/DE Miami---Yes...Former DPOTY and 6 time pro bowler with like 120 sacks. He's a lock IMO
Fred Taylor RB New England---No...Has the stats with over 11000 yds but never really stood out as dominant.
Richard Seymour DE New England---Yes...maybe a homer pick here but if you were to build a perfect 5-tech it would be him. Been the best player at his position for nearly ten years.
Alan Faneca G New York Jets---No...Was very good but not sure if he was elite at any real stage compared with guards like Hutchinson.
Ed Reed S Baltimore---Yes...next
Jamal Lewis RB Cleveland---No...2000 yd season helps him but not done a lot after that
Troy Polamalu S Pittsburgh---Yes...when it's all said and done. Will always be thought of below Reed but that's not that much of an insult
Hines Ward WR Pittsburgh---No...always been a good receiver but teams never had to gameplan for him like Moss, TO Harrison etc
Kevin Mawae C Tennessee---Yes...Consistently been one of the top interior linemen for 15 years
Antonio Gates TE San Diego---Yes...injuries have slowed him recently but when healthy he is a different animal to anything we've ever seen at TE.
Brian Waters G Kansas City---No...same deal as Faneca for me
Zach Thomas LB Kansas City---No...if he gets in it's because of longevity more than anything else
Lorenzo Neal FB Oakland---Yes...something like 10 seasons blocking for 1000 yd rushers. That says enough for me and doesn't tell half the story
Nnamdi Asomough CB Oakland---Yes...I actually think sense will be seen here and not based on stats. He has been the best player at CB for the last two years and don't see anyone catching him soon. Shuts down one half of the field
Champ Bailey CB Denver---Yes...Best CB of the decade who is an all round player who shuts his man down, gets INTs and stuffs the run. Shoe in.
Brian Dawkins S Denver---No...Very few safeties get in and he has been behind Reed and Polamalu for the last five years. Great leader but maybe not a hall of famer
Brian Westbrook RB Phiadelphia---No...Jack of all trades, dangerous, exciting but never near the LT, AD level(**On a side note im not saying Peterson is going to the HOF, I think we'll wait and see in a few years)
Donovan McNabb QB Philadelphia---No...Five NFC championship games, played in one Superbowl and lost it. Very, very good QB but not a big game player. QBs are judged on rings
Steve Hutchinson G Minnesota---Yes...best guard of the decade. Played in Seattle and blocked for the MVP. Anyone willing to bet me that AD doesn't be MVP sometime soon??? Hutch is a big reason for that
Brian Urlacher LB CHICAGO!!!---No...Consistently very good and the prototypical MLB in the Tampa 2 but not good enough for the hall
Orlando Pace LT Chicago---Yes...When he was injured you seen how much he was missed. The Greatest show on turf will have featured quite a few HOFers
Kurt Warner QB Arizona---Yes...not sure if I agree but he will get in. Won a superbowl, lead one of the best offenses ever and took a perennial loser to the superbowl.
Drew Brees QB New Orleans---No...this is on the proviso that the Saints dont win the superbowl. As I mentioned above QBs are judged on rings
Rhonde Barber CB Tampa Bay---Yes...Not in the same league as Champ but he has 20+ sacks and INTs. For a CB that is huge
Ben Roethlisberger QB Pittsburgh---Yes...QBs are judged on rings. I think ive said that before and he's already got 2. On his play I would say no but he will get in
Bill Cowher Coach---Yes...absolute cert IMO. But coaches in Pittsburgh get it easy lol
Tom Coughlin Coach New York Giants---No...needs at least one more superbowl
Jeff Fisher Coach Tennessee---Yes...He's the longest reigning head coach with one team in the league. Also with his work as chairman of the competition committee he'll get in on a down year

EarthWindandFire
08-23-2009, 04:44 PM
People it's the Hall of Fame, not the Hall of Very Good. I think some people's perspective towards certain players and their place in the history of the league is badly skewed.


Terrell Owens WR Buffalo - Yes. Unfortunately.

Jason Taylor LB/DE Miami - Yes. But it's going to take a while

Fred Taylor RB New England - Nope. Great player. Not HOF worthy.

Richard Seymour DE New England - Not yet. Needs more good years due to lack of stats.

Alan Faneca G New York Jets - No

Ed Reed S Baltimore - Absolutely. Will be up there with Lott when it's all said and done.

Jamal Lewis RB Cleveland - No way.

Troy Polamalu S Pittsburgh - No. Could change my mind in 5 years though.

Hines Ward WR Pittsburgh - No. Very, very good. Not HOF caliber good.

Kevin Mawae C Tennessee - Yes. Best pivot of his era.

Antonio Gates TE San Diego - No. Hasn't done enough.

Brian Waters G Kansas City - No. Come on people.

Zach Thomas LB Kansas City - No. Lewis, Brooks, Seau, and Urlacher were all better.

Lorenzo Neal FB Oakland - No.

Nnamdi Asomough CB Oakland - Yes. Not there yet, though.

Champ Bailey CB Denver - Absolutely. And whether anyone thinks he is undeserving guess what? He might be first ballot. Lot left in the tank still.

Brian Dawkins S Denver - No. Needs to win a ring. Sorry.

Brian Westbrook RB Phiadelphia - No. Please.

Donovan McNabb QB Philadelphia - Yes. Whether he gets that ring or not. Still has good years left to pad stats.

Steve Hutchinson G Minnesota - Yes. Eventually

Brian Urlacher LB Chicago - No. See Zach Thomas. Others were better.

Orlando Pace LT Chicago - Yes. Absolutely.

Kurt Warner QB Arizona - Yes. Resounding yes in three more years.

Drew Brees QB New Orleans - No. Drew Bledsoe part 2?

Rhonde Barber CB Tampa Bay - No way, no how.

Ben Roethlisberger QB Pittsburgh - Yes. I think he'll win at least one more ring. Doesn't compare to other HOF QB's though. Think Namath.

Bill Cowher Coach - Yes. He's had a tremendous career that migh tnot be over just yet.

Tom Coughlin Coach New York Giants - No. If he did, would anyone show up to his induction ceremony? Brilliant coach, though.

Jeff Fisher Coach Tennessee - no. Never won anything.
__________________

Splat
08-23-2009, 05:35 PM
Shields and Roaf are definite HOFers imo.

O for sure not only HOF but first ballot Shields might have to wait a little longer not because of his play but becasue he played guard but both are locks.

What do you guys think about Marty Schottenheimer?

I know he never won the big game but over 200 wins if you count playoff games that is pretty impressive I say yes.

umphrey
08-23-2009, 05:55 PM
A coach who never won a super bowl is the opposite of dominant and not someone I would put in the HOF.

Splat
08-23-2009, 05:58 PM
A coach who never won a super bowl is the opposite of dominant and not someone I would put in the HOF.

So I guess you think players that never won a SB should not be in either?

aNYtitan
08-23-2009, 08:02 PM
People like McNabb and Brees will not be remembered by the time they come up for the vote, unless they win a Super Bowl before they are through. I cannot see them getting in. This era has five that stand above the rest: Warner, Brady, Manning, Favre. I do not think there is really room for another.

What do you qualify as the era? Cause Big Ben already has 2 Super Bowl titles in his 6 seasons as a QB and has a legitimate shot at another 1 or possibly 2. Its just the individual stats that may hold him back.

wicket
08-23-2009, 08:24 PM
People like McNabb and Brees will not be remembered by the time they come up for the vote, unless they win a Super Bowl before they are through. I cannot see them getting in. This era has five that stand above the rest: Warner(1), Brady(2), Manning(3), Favre(4). I do not think there is really room for another.

Besides the counting thing there is one more thing i wonder.
I do not get why people would like warner in for sure but not brees.
Not saying that brees is in for sure by any means but he already has almost the production that warner has had in his career. He has this whilst he is 8 years younger. If i were a HOF voter i would just not be able to overcome the enormous lack in production from warner when he didnt have great offensive talent around him.
This is even skipping over the fact that brees could still win stuff like mvps and maybe even a superbowl. Would the team succes where warner was a part of really count more than something like 15000 passing yards more and anywhere between 50 and 100 more td's. This is not assuming crazy stats by any means for brees, just 5 more 3500 yard 25 td seasons which is no reach at all considering the stability of drew's career thusfar.

wonderbredd24
08-23-2009, 08:32 PM
Kurt Warner is a Hall of Famer because of what he does on the biggest stage... he is a beast in the Superbowl and has 3 of the highest passing yard totals in Superbowl history.

TACKLE
08-23-2009, 08:52 PM
Yay or Nay
Terrell Owens WR Buffalo - Yes.
Jason Taylor LB/DE Miami - No. He could possibly but great pass rushers like Doleman, Dent, Greene and Haley have not been voted in and Taylor is not as good as any of those guys.
Fred Taylor RB New England - No.
Richard Seymour DE New England - Yes. The best player on the defense that won three SB's. The prototype for his position.
Alan Faneca G New York Jets - No.
Ed Reed S Baltimore - Yes. One of the greatest safeties ever.
Jamal Lewis RB Cleveland - No.
Troy Polamalu S Pittsburgh - Yes.
Hines Ward WR Pittsburgh - No. Better stats than Stallworth and Swann though Swann does not belong in the Hall.
Kevin Mawae C Tennessee - No.
Antonio Gates TE San Diego - Yes but he's still got a ways to go.
Brian Waters G Kansas City - No.
Zach Thomas LB Kansas City - No.
Lorenzo Neal FB Oakland - No.
Nnamdi Asomough CB Oakland - Yes.
Champ Bailey CB Denver - Yes.
Brian Dawkins S Denver - Yes.
Brian Westbrook RB Phiadelphia - No.
Donovan McNabb QB Philadelphia - No.
Steve Hutchinson G Minnesota - Yes.
Brian Urlacher LB CHICAGO!!! - No.
Orlando Pace LT Chicago - Yes.
Kurt Warner QB Arizona - I'll say yes. Very close call.
Drew Brees QB New Orleans - No. He needs to win more big games.
Rhonde Barber CB Tampa Bay - No.
Ben Roethlisberger QB Pittsburgh - Borderline. I'll say no.
Bill Cowher Coach - No.
Tom Coughlin Coach New York Giants - Absolutely not.
Jeff Fisher Coach Tennessee - I love Fisher but it'll be very hard with out a SB.

These are the players who I consider "Shoe-Ins"

Tom Brady QB New England - Yes
Peyton Manning QB Indianapolis - Yes
Tony Gonzalez TE Atlanta - Yes
Ray Lewis LB Baltimore - Yes
Marvin Harrison WR Free Agent - Unfortunately, yes.
Derrick Brooks LB Free Agent - Yes
Walter Jones LT Seattle - Yes
Jonathan Ogden LT - Yes
Larry Allen G - Yes. First Ballot.
Brett Favre QB Minnesota -Yes.
LaDainian Tomlinson RB San Diego - Yes.
Torry Holt WR Jacksonville - Probably not.
Isaac Bruce WR San Francisco - Definitely not.
Junior Seau LB Free Agent??? - Yes
Adam Vinatieri K Indianapolis Colts - No. Kickers don't belong in the Hall.
Bill Belichick Coach New England
Mike Shannahan Coach - Close call. I'll lean yes but I wouldn't be surprised if he didn't
Tony Dungy Coach - Same as Shannahan.
Bill Parcells Coach - Yes

Gay Ork Wang
08-23-2009, 08:59 PM
why dont kickers belong into the hall? I dont get it

the decider13
08-23-2009, 09:18 PM
I don't get it either, kickers can have such a huge impact on the game. And as some one pointed out, there is already a kicker in the hall. Although, I don't think any special teamers should make the HOF until Tasker and Guy are in.

I want to say that Jamal Lewis shouldn't make the HOF, but that destroys my argument that Terrell Davis should be in (2000 yard season).

49ers1984
10-09-2009, 02:36 PM
[QUOTE=JFLO;1764114]Alright, the point of this thread is to debate whether or not certain players will be inducted into the Hall of Fame after they retire.

There are some players that are automatic "shoe-ins" (Brady, Manning, Tomlinson). However, there are some players that are walking the line between Yay and Nay (McNabb, Warner).

So debate on whether or not these players will eventually reach Canton...feel free to discuss any player at anytime.

If needed, here is a list of players that can be considered:

Yay or Nay
Terrell Owens WR Buffalo No I yes he has a lot of catches but being a team player should be a factor
Jason Taylor LB/DE Miami No
Fred Taylor RB New England No
Richard Seymour DE New England No
Alan Faneca G New York Jets No
Ed Reed S Baltimore yes
Jamal Lewis RB Cleveland no
Troy Polamalu S Pittsburgh Not yet in a couple of years probably
Hines Ward WR Pittsburgh No
Kevin Mawae C Tennessee No
Antonio Gates TE San Diego No
Brian Waters G Kansas City No
Zach Thomas LB Kansas City No
Lorenzo Neal FB Oakland No
Nnamdi Asomough CB Oakland No
Champ Bailey CB Denver Not yet
Brian Dawkins S Denver No
Brian Westbrook RB Phiadelphia No
Donovan McNabb QB Philadelphia No
Steve Hutchinson G Minnesota No
Brian Urlacher LB CHICAGO!!! No
Orlando Pace LT Chicago No
Kurt Warner QB Arizona No
Drew Brees QB New Orleans No
Rhonde Barber CB Tampa Bay No
Ben Roethlisberger QB Pittsburgh No
Bill Cowher Coach No if you put Cowher in shouldn't you put Tomlin in since he won a Superbowl with the same orginization but in fewer years?
Tom Coughlin Coach New York Giants No
Jeff Fisher Coach Tennessee No

I consider the HOF for the best of the best that is why I am so picky

wordofi
10-09-2009, 06:36 PM
Alright, the point of this thread is to debate whether or not certain players will be inducted into the Hall of Fame after they retire.

There are some players that are automatic "shoe-ins" (Brady, Manning, Tomlinson). However, there are some players that are walking the line between Yay and Nay (McNabb, Warner).

So debate on whether or not these players will eventually reach Canton...feel free to discuss any player at anytime.

If needed, here is a list of players that can be considered:

Yay or Nay
Terrell Owens WR Buffalo
Jason Taylor LB/DE Miami
Fred Taylor RB New England
Richard Seymour DE New England
Alan Faneca G New York Jets
Ed Reed S Baltimore
Jamal Lewis RB Cleveland
Troy Polamalu S Pittsburgh
Hines Ward WR Pittsburgh
Kevin Mawae C Tennessee
Antonio Gates TE San Diego
Brian Waters G Kansas City
Zach Thomas LB Kansas City
Lorenzo Neal FB Oakland
Nnamdi Asomough CB Oakland
Champ Bailey CB Denver
Brian Dawkins S Denver
Brian Westbrook RB Phiadelphia
Donovan McNabb QB Philadelphia
Steve Hutchinson G Minnesota
Brian Urlacher LB CHICAGO!!!
Orlando Pace LT Chicago
Kurt Warner QB Arizona
Drew Brees QB New Orleans
Rhonde Barber CB Tampa Bay
Ben Roethlisberger QB Pittsburgh
Bill Cowher Coach
Tom Coughlin Coach New York Giants
Jeff Fisher Coach Tennessee

These are the players who I consider "Shoe-Ins"

Tom Brady QB New England
Peyton Manning QB Indianapolis
Tony Gonzalez TE Atlanta
Ray Lewis LB Baltimore
Marvin Harrison WR Free Agent
Derrick Brooks LB Free Agent
Walter Jones LT Seattle
Jonathan Ogden LT
Larry Allen G
Brett Favre QB Minnesota
LaDainian Tomlinson RB San Diego
Torry Holt WR Jacksonville
Isaac Bruce WR San Francisco
Junior Seau LB Free Agent???
Adam Vinatieri K Indianapolis Colts (the dude won two SBs with kicks)
Bill Belichick Coach New England
Mike Shannahan Coach
Tony Dungy Coach (I think the fact that he was the first black coach to win the Super Bowl will seal it off)
Bill Parcells Coach (Honestly don't know if he is already in, I doubt it)


I'm done listing them and I'm sure that I've missed some so please feel free to mention them and explain why or why not they deserve to be in Canton.


Obviously, I've listed some players that are somewhat in their prime (Nnamdi, Roethlisberger and Brees) but they should be given some consideration assuming that they continue their stellar careers. Don't be shy to recommend future essential players to the league (Matt Ryan, Adrian Peterson and Patrick Willis)


I'll start it off with the player that seems to be a hot topic with the Hall of Fame...

Donovan McNabb to the Hall of Fame?

Yay or Nay?

Some of your shoe-ins aren't Hall of Famers such as Tory Holt and Mike Shanahan. Nay for the Taylors, Barbers, Faneca, Gates, Waters, Westbrook, McNabb, Urlacher, Roethlisberger, Coughlin, and Fisher.

These Hall of Fame talks are annoying in a way. People post names of those who they think are going to be Hall of Famers, and very few of the people listed are "great."

P-L
10-09-2009, 06:53 PM
These Hall of Fame talks are annoying in a way. People post names of those who they think are going to be Hall of Famers, and very few of the people listed are "great."
The Hall of Fame is for the best of the best. Even with how liberal the hall of fame has gotten, half these guys won't sniff it. No offense some of these posters, but does anyone honestly think Rhonde Barber, Fred Taylor, or Jamal Lewis are three of the best players of all-time. The hall of fame is an elite club. You have to be excellent for a period of time or great for an even longer period.

Which name doesn't belong?

Lance Alworth, James Lofton, Steve Largent, John Stallworth, and Hines Ward.

Rosebud
10-09-2009, 07:45 PM
This is how I feel not what I think will happen
Terrell Owens WR Buffalo- Yes
TO has been a dominant receiver, all his off the field chaos hasn't prevented him from being a great football player.
Jason Taylor LB/DE Miami- Yes
He's got the numbers and was a true force as a pass rusher as well as a DPOY trophy.
Fred Taylor RB New England- No
I've always liked the dude but he was never the dominant, best at his position, player that I think you need to be to be a hall of famer.
Richard Seymour DE New England- Yes
He was huge to those New England defenses that lead them to superbowl after superbowl. He doesn't have the numbers but as a 3-4 DE his job wasn't to get numbers.
Alan Faneca G New York Jets- No
A great guard who never dominated enough for him to get my vote.
Ed Reed S Baltimore- Yes
Ed's always struggled against the run and gambles, but he's such a game changing playmaker.
Jamal Lewis RB Cleveland- No
No.
Troy Polamalu S Pittsburgh- Yes
He changes games, he's one of the great players of this league.
Hines Ward WR Pittsburgh- No
Sure he's a good blocker, but his job is a receiver first where he wasn't ever enough of a force to earn the Hall. There have been many WRs who are/were great blockers but are/were better receivers than Ward like Plax and TO.
Kevin Mawae C Tennessee- Maybe
I put him on the borderline, my guts saying no but I am a little iffy.
Antonio Gates TE San Diego- Yes
This is assuming he can put up another dominant season or two. Wish he had learned how to block well, would've sealed the deal.
Brian Waters G Kansas City- No
Zach Thomas LB Kansas City- No
Lorenzo Neal FB Oakland- Maybe
Also not sure on this one, a beast of a lead blocker but...alright fine, yes.
Nnamdi Asomough CB Oakland- Yes
If his career ends tomorrow he'll have been exceptionally dominant for most of his career. Before aso came along I didn't realize how dominant a guy could be at just taking anyone out of the game.
Champ Bailey CB Denver- Yes
Always more of a gambler than aso so he could be burned, but he was a great cover man who was a massive playmaker and showed one of the more dominant seasons by a DB this decade.
Brian Dawkins S Denver- Yes
I'll put him in, an elite player who was a major factor in every game he played. He's slowed down but he's still a high quality starter.
Brian Westbrook RB Phiadelphia- No
Killed my giants but didn't dominate consistently enough. Pity injuries have hampered him.
Donovan McNabb QB Philadelphia- No
Donovan's always been an elite QB but never the greatest QB, Even that one year with TO he wasn't as dominant as I'd like to see from a hall of famer and never being able to pull it off and will his team to a superbowl is a strike against him in my mind.
Steve Hutchinson G Minnesota- Yeah
Hutch has been a truly dominant player in his career so he gets a yes from me.
Brian Urlacher LB Bears- Yes
If he had put together a longer peak of dominance this would be easier but he still gets a yes from me for those peak years.
Orlando Pace LT Chicago- Yes
He was a monster pass blocker who kept Mike Martz in the league by giving those rams enough pass blocking to run that system successful for as long as they did.
Kurt Warner QB Arizona- Yes
He's been great when he's played on good teams and has the ring to clinch it.
Drew Brees QB New Orleans- Not yet
I'd like to see him in the playoffs now that the Saints are heading in the right direction before I give my full support for the Hall.
Rhonde Barber CB Tampa Bay- No
Ben Roethlisberger QB Pittsburgh- No
Although he has plenty of time to change my mind.
Bill Cowher Coach- Yes
Tom Coughlin Coach New York Giants- I want to say yes but I'm going with not yet.
If he keeps coaching the Giants for another 5 years he should really pad his resume and then I think he'll be a hall of famer, a great offensive system, a great teacher of fundamentals, a hard coach who really drives his team to success and he's learned to really connect with his players.
Jeff Fisher Coach Tennessee- Yes

Raiderz4Life
10-09-2009, 08:08 PM
So Polamalu and Reed are in...but not Dawkins? Thats preposterous

Dawkins was Polamalu and Reed before they were in the NFL....he set the standard for what a S should be

niel89
10-10-2009, 04:31 AM
So Polamalu and Reed are in...but not Dawkins? Thats preposterous

Dawkins was Polamalu and Reed before they were in the NFL....he set the standard for what a S should be

But Reed as made a even higher standard of how much of an impact player a safety can be. 43 interceptions in 7 years. That is 9 more then Dawkins did in 13 seasons

Sniper
10-10-2009, 07:05 AM
But Reed as made a even higher standard of how much of an impact player a safety can be. 43 interceptions in 7 years. That is 9 more then Dawkins did in 13 seasons

Dawkins was better against the run and as a blitzer.

21 sacks for Dawkins, 5 for Reed.
32 forced fumbles for Dawkins, 6 for Reed.
161 passes broken up for Dawkins, 92 for Reed.

vikes_28
10-10-2009, 11:37 AM
I think we should change this thread name to: "Who is better: Ed Reed or Brian Dawkins"

I think they are both destined to be in the HoF someday.

Sniper
10-10-2009, 11:40 AM
Brian Dawkins S Denver - No. Needs to win a ring. Sorry.

What an insanely moronic statement.

jth1331
10-10-2009, 01:12 PM
Champ Bailey CB Denver NO
But he will get voted in. One of the most overrated players of his era, except for a career year in 2006 where he played out of his mind. Always prone to give it up deep like a pornstar with no gag reflex. Charles Woodson is more of a HOF cornerback than Bailey. Bailey was considered the best cornerback when the position wasn't very strong, well that doesn't make you a Hall of ******* Famer.


Do you have a vendetta against Champ or something?
The guy has played amazing, he was second in the balloting for DPOY once, and in another year finished high in the voting as well. Personally, I think he needs a few more years to validate his HoF credentials, but saying he doesn't deserve it is assinine, especially when you said Ronde Barber deserves to get in.
Barber in, but not Champ? That is laughable.

Geo
10-10-2009, 01:34 PM
Yeah, what could I see in Barber over Bailey.

It couldn't be that Ronde is the first and only cornerback in NFL history with 20 career sacks and 20 career picks. To be exact:

37 career interceptions, 24 career sacks, and also 12 career forced fumbles. Goodness knows how many pass deflections he has in his career, NFL.com says he had 102 from 2001 until now, no data available from 1997-2000.

Or that he made big plays in big games including the postseason. Has 12 career touchdowns (7 from interceptions, 4 from fumbles, 1 punt return).

Or that he consistently played well year after year over the course of his career.

Or that he was a complete cornerback who limited the effectiveness of opposing offenses, a physical tackler who limited touchdowns allowed.

Or that he was a linchpin of one of the league's best defenses in this era.

Or that he was one of the core players who completely turned around the Tampa Bay Buccaneers franchise from a laughing stock to a championship winner.


PS. The word is asinine, not assinine. Although that was ironically quite fitting.

Paranoidmoonduck
10-10-2009, 02:07 PM
Regarding Champ Bailey,

He's been a really really good football player for quite a while. Save for a few rough years (his first year in Denver as well as his past couple seasons), he's been one of the best corners in the NFL. However, he's never really been a shut down cornerback. A lot of passes tend to get thrown his way, which doesn't exactly hurt his interception or tackle totals, but doesn't necessarily indicate dominance. He has been, at times, a brilliant playmaker but he's never been more than a good cover man (and sometimes he's not even that).

He's got a big profile due to some big plays ('05 and '06 were huge for his reputation in the press), so he stands a decent shot of getting in. But it looks like his best football is behind him. If, from here on out, he never makes a big post season impact, he is never part of a dominant defense, and he never puts up another truly great year statistically speaking, is that luster he gained from a few very good years going to hold out?

Ultimately, I think it will be close. Good arguments will be made for both sides. But I can't definitely picture Bailey being one of those guys who is up for induction for quite a while (just as I can picture Ronde Barber getting in before him). He's definitely not a first ballot guy.

jth1331
10-10-2009, 02:12 PM
Yeah, what could I see in Barber over Bailey.

It couldn't be that Ronde is the first and only cornerback in NFL history with 20 career sacks and 20 career picks. To be exact:

37 career interceptions, 24 career sacks, and also 12 career forced fumbles. Goodness knows how many pass deflections he has in his career, NFL.com says he had 102 from 2001 until now, no data available from 1997-2000.

[quote]Or that he made big plays in big games including the postseason. Has 12 career touchdowns (7 from interceptions, 4 from fumbles, 1 punt return).

Like Champ didn't do the same in big games. He made a huge interception against the Pats in the playoffs, and came up with big plays at opportune moments to help win games.

Or that he consistently played well year after year over the course of his career.

Gee, so has Champ.

Or that he was a complete cornerback who limited the effectiveness of opposing offenses, a physical tackler who limited touchdowns allowed.

Again, so has Champ been a complete cornerback.

Or that he was a linchpin of one of the league's best defenses in this era.

Or that he was one of the core players who completely turned around the Tampa Bay Buccaneers franchise from a laughing stock to a championship winner.

I'm not denying Barber isn't a great player, but saying he is superior to Champ to me is just laughable.

PS. The word is asinine, not assinine. Although that was ironically quite fitting.

I am sorry for accidentally adding a s to the word.

bored of education
10-10-2009, 02:28 PM
Fred Smerlas was the NT for the Bills, next to Bruce Smith between 1985-1989. The Bills played 3-4 those years and played 3-4 50-70% of the time over the next 5 years. I think after the Super Bowl loses is when the DC changes occurred.

The Patriots didn't fully switch to the 3-4 until 2003 season so Seymour spent his 1st two seasons at 4-3 DT. He was a dominant 3-4 DE from 2003-2008 with 2 seasons of mediocrity. I wouldn't say he is even close to an HoFer. If he gets in just because of the rings then you might as well through Larry Izzo in for his special teams work with the team.

Kevin Greene, John Randle, Warren Sapp, Michael Strahan, Chris Doleman, Richard Dent, Clyde Simmons have more of a case than Seymour. You could also put in the Seymour area people like Charles Haley, Neil Smith and Trevor Pryce.

I'm sorry 4-5 dominant years doesn't mean Hall of Famer. Simeon Rice was dominant for 6 yers is he an HoFer?

HoFer is someone you game plan for, someone you spend those 3-4 extra hours per day preparing for. I think Seymour was part of some very good teams that he was one of the best defenders on those squads.

Plus he doesn't pass the eye ball test, the stats and film test. HE was very good for a 6-8 year period but their are about 30-40 guys that have the same claim he will have to be in line with.

ImBrotherCain
10-10-2009, 02:49 PM
I think before Ed Reed, Polamalu and Dawkins i would put Darren Sharper in there. Thoughts?

sweetness34
10-10-2009, 03:02 PM
Kurt Warner is a Hall of Famer because of what he does on the biggest stage... he is a beast in the Superbowl and has 3 of the highest passing yard totals in Superbowl history.

With some of the sickest offensive talent around. I respect Warner as a very good QB, but I also think he's been overrated. Isaac Bruce, Torry Holt, Marshall Faulk, Larry Fitzgerald, and Anquan Boldin. I imagine any QB with some ability could do a damn good job having those players around them.

Warner is a Hall of Famer though. You can't deny the numbers but I do think he's been overrated.

Crazy_Chris
10-10-2009, 04:29 PM
The Hall of Fame is for the best of the best. Even with how liberal the hall of fame has gotten, half these guys won't sniff it. No offense some of these posters, but does anyone honestly think Rhonde Barber, Fred Taylor, or Jamal Lewis are three of the best players of all-time. The hall of fame is an elite club. You have to be excellent for a period of time or great for an even longer period.

Which name doesn't belong?

Lance Alworth, James Lofton, Steve Largent, John Stallworth, and Hines Ward.

I agree with all of that.

I think before Ed Reed, Polamalu and Dawkins i would put Darren Sharper in there. Thoughts?

Tough call Darren Sharper has the most picks, and return TDs of them. But he also only has 1 All-pro and 4 pro bowls(so far).

Honestly I am not sure any of them really make it in. Seems a lot of posters thinks most of those safeties are definatly HOF worthy. But Saftey is such a tough position to make it in the HOF.

There are only 8 pure safeties in the hall of fame, yep only 8 they are...
Jack Christiansen
Ken Houston
Paul Krause
Yale Lary
Ronnie Lott
Emlen Tunnel
Larry Wilson
Willie Wood

Plus 2 more that Played Safety for a good portion of their Career(aswell as CB).
Mel Renfro
Rod Woodson

Aswell as only 2 of those players began their careers after 1980(Rod Woodson, and Ronnie Lott). In the last 30 years there have only been 2 HOF Safties. Not a whole lot of love from the hall for the safties.

There have been some excellent safeties this past decade Brian Dawkins, Ed Reed, Darren Sharper, Troy Polamalu. However I am not sure that any single one of them stand out soooooo far from the rest of his peers, that he is clearly the very best of his kind for this period of time. In the end that could end up hurting all of there chances IMO. It will definatly become a very intersting debate once all these guys finish their respecitive career.

cunit2k9
10-10-2009, 05:53 PM
Some of you are unreal. I don't see how anyone could say MAYBE to Derrick Brooks, or no to Torry Holt, Marvin Harrison, Lorenzo Neal. Also, to say yes to Asomough, who has barely even played, but no to Champ Bailey? And all the nos to Ronde Barber, he had an amazing career and was the best cornerback on a team that typically had a top defense in the league.

Raiderz4Life
10-10-2009, 06:54 PM
I think before Ed Reed, Polamalu and Dawkins i would put Darren Sharper in there. Thoughts?

The only thing Reed and Sharper have over the Idiot Man is their INTs but B-Dawk has been the all round safety....he provides run support and will blitz effectively...he should be the 1st one in from this group

boknows34
10-11-2009, 12:35 PM
Lorenzo Neal?

Blocking fullbacks do NOT make the HOF.

niel89
10-11-2009, 03:09 PM
Lorenzo Neal?

Blocking fullbacks do NOT make the HOF.

Sadly I have to agree. If there ever were a blocking fullback to make it, I think he deserves it.

49ers1984
10-11-2009, 03:34 PM
With some of the sickest offensive talent around. I respect Warner as a very good QB, but I also think he's been overrated. Isaac Bruce, Torry Holt, Marshall Faulk, Larry Fitzgerald, and Anquan Boldin. I imagine any QB with some ability could do a damn good job having those players around them.

Warner is a Hall of Famer though. You can't deny the numbers but I do think he's been overrated.

The reason he has great numbers is that he has had great players around him and has been in pass happy offenses.

robert pancake gallery
10-11-2009, 03:44 PM
The reason he has great numbers is that he has had great players around him and has been in pass happy offenses.

the only reason barry sanders is in the hall of fame is because he had one of the best o-line's in front of him, and notice how as soon as people started leaving that o-line he mysteriously retires... what a front runner

49ers1984
10-11-2009, 03:45 PM
the only reason barry sanders is in the hall of fame is because he had one of the best o-line's in front of him, and notice how as soon as people started leaving that o-line he mysteriously retires... what a front runner

barry sanders was a great player who did not need a great offensive line to be great Kurt Warner did need great players around him just look at how he did in New York.

P-L
10-11-2009, 07:15 PM
Yeah, it's ridiculous to suggest that Lorenzo Neal is a hall of fame player. Was he good blocker? Sure. But he shouldn't be rewarded because he played with great running backs. Someone shouldn't be rewarded for playing with Warrick Dunn, LaDainian Tomlinson, Corey Dillon (in his prime), and Eddie George.

Bengalsrocket
10-11-2009, 07:32 PM
Yeah, it's ridiculous to suggest that Lorenzo Neal is a hall of fame player. Was he good blocker? Sure. But he shouldn't be rewarded because he played with great running backs. Someone shouldn't be rewarded for playing with Warrick Dunn, LaDainian Tomlinson, Corey Dillon (in his prime), and Eddie George.

Well all of those players got rewarded for playing with him lol. Their beefy stats are in part because of Neal.

Raiderz4Life
10-11-2009, 07:53 PM
the only reason barry sanders is in the hall of fame is because he had one of the best o-line's in front of him, and notice how as soon as people started leaving that o-line he mysteriously retires... what a front runner

He didn't mysteriously retire...he retired cuz the Lions sucked and wouldn't trade him to a decent team

Paranoidmoonduck
10-11-2009, 07:59 PM
the only reason barry sanders is in the hall of fame is because he had one of the best o-line's in front of him,

I'm sorry, come again?

Splat
10-11-2009, 08:34 PM
the only reason barry sanders is in the hall of fame is because he had one of the best o-line's in front of him.

Just wow...

senormysterioso
10-11-2009, 08:54 PM
ysjr0IspY_M

you mean these lineman?

Stranger
10-11-2009, 10:40 PM
barry sanders was a great player who did not need a great offensive line to be great Kurt Warner did need great players around him just look at how he did in New York.


Giants fans can probably give a better perspective but I don't think Warner was awful with NY.

He had a winning record as the starter (5-4) after the team went 4-12 the year before. His passer rating of 86.5 is decent and is actually higher than Mannings best passer rating (not counting this year). If I recall correctly he had a couple of games where his fumbles cost them and the team had pretty much gone all in with the Manning trade so that was their future.

As far as him being hall of fame goes I think he goes in. Great stats, MVP, superbowl, multiple postseason records to go with NFL man of the year award and a great story. Plus the Hall likes QBs.

Seanhawk
10-12-2009, 12:16 PM
the only reason barry sanders is in the hall of fame is because he had one of the best o-line's in front of him

This is a seriously ridiculous statement.

49ers1984
10-12-2009, 03:29 PM
Giants fans can probably give a better perspective but I don't think Warner was awful with NY.

He had a winning record as the starter (5-4) after the team went 4-12 the year before. His passer rating of 86.5 is decent and is actually higher than Mannings best passer rating (not counting this year). If I recall correctly he had a couple of games where his fumbles cost them and the team had pretty much gone all in with the Manning trade so that was their future.

As far as him being hall of fame goes I think he goes in. Great stats, MVP, superbowl, multiple postseason records to go with NFL man of the year award and a great story. Plus the Hall likes QBs.


The problem is he had 3 great years and a bunch of mediocre years. While he was great those years he does not have enough great years to make the HOF

CC.SD
10-12-2009, 04:28 PM
the only reason barry sanders is in the hall of fame is because he had one of the best o-line's in front of him, and notice how as soon as people started leaving that o-line he mysteriously retires... what a front runner

Holy ****, it's always when you're not looking that the pot boils over and burns your cat which shouldn't have been anywhere near the stove to begin with, wth you stupid cat!

Anyway this post is win.

RAVENS/WIZARDS/ORIOLES
10-12-2009, 04:31 PM
I don't think the Barry Sanders statement was supposed to be taken seriously. I am pretty sure he was doing to Sanders what people were saying about Warner.

CC.SD
10-12-2009, 04:40 PM
Btw thanks a lot Patriots for pushing Junior Seau's enshrinment ceremony back another year YET. AGAIN.

RAVENS/WIZARDS/ORIOLES
10-12-2009, 04:52 PM
Btw thanks a lot Patriots for pushing Junior Seau's enshrinment ceremony back another year YET. AGAIN.

You mean thank you Seau?????

Halsey
10-12-2009, 05:38 PM
Coughlin could easily have more Super Bowl rings if he didn't spend his first decade making the Jaguars an overachiever. He might have gotten a second last year if Plaxico Burress didn't decide to shoot himself.

boknows34
10-13-2009, 04:18 AM
the only reason barry sanders is in the hall of fame is because he had one of the best o-line's in front of him, and notice how as soon as people started leaving that o-line he mysteriously retires... what a front runner


Are you serious?

Q: Where was Lomas Brown during Barry's 2,053yd and 6.1ypc season in 1997?

A: In an Arizona Cardinals uniform.

The same Lomas Brown who didn't get a sniff of the Pro Bowl for the first 4 years of his career until Barry arrived in 89. The same Lions OL that went from dead last to first in rushing ypc during Barry's rookie season.

Please tell me you are not serious? Sanders had one of THE worst offensive line units in the league, nor did he have a decent QB to keep defences honest. He often faced 8 men in the box and needed to break 2 tackles just to get back to the line of scrimmage yet still averaged 99.8 yds per game and 5.0 yds per carry for his entire career. 10 seasons, 10 Pro Bowls, 10 times 1st/2nd team All-Pro, MVP, Greatest pure runner ever.

49ers1984
10-13-2009, 08:47 AM
I do not understand the people who will put Bill Cowher in but not Tom Coughlin. They both won superbowls. Are we going to put in every coach that wins one Superbowl and is well liked?

Paranoidmoonduck
10-13-2009, 04:27 PM
I do not understand the people who will put Bill Cowher in but not Tom Coughlin. They both won superbowls. Are we going to put in every coach that wins one Superbowl and is well liked?

So it's only the Superbowl that matters?

Cowher has a better winning percentage (both in the regular season and the playoffs), more division titles, more conference titles, spent 15 years on the same team, and held a bigger profile than Coughlin over almost that entire span.

Maybe Coughlin gets in, but there's no doubt that Cowher has a stronger chance.

wonderbredd24
10-13-2009, 04:41 PM
I think Willie Anderson deserves some consideration for Canton. He was a right tackle who made Pro Bowls. That is a big deal for a right tackle and he was great for a very long time between Cincinnati and Baltimore

Hawk
10-13-2009, 06:11 PM
Ok here's a questionable one. What about Donald Driver? Say he continues to play at a high level for the next 4 years(meaning 1000+ yards in each of those seasons) That would make him 39 years old, and having 10 of his past 11 seasons with over 1000 yards receiving and one of the elite receivers of the decade.

I say no, but I'm wondering how close do you think he is to being a HOFer.

Gay Ork Wang
10-13-2009, 06:18 PM
Ok here's a questionable one. What about Donald Driver? Say he continues to play at a high level for the next 4 years(meaning 1000+ yards in each of those seasons) That would make him 39 years old, and having 10 of his past 11 seasons with over 1000 yards receiving and one of the elite receivers of the decade.

I say no, but I'm wondering how close do you think he is to being a HOFer.
Driver has never been an elite receiver. a good, above average receiver, yes. Not elite

Paranoidmoonduck
10-13-2009, 07:52 PM
I say no, but I'm wondering how close do you think he is to being a HOFer.

I don't think he's even close. Much much better receivers will likely spend a long time waiting to get in.

Bengalsrocket
10-13-2009, 08:20 PM
If Chris Carter is getting pushed out every year, Donald Driver definitely isn't getting in. I have no doubt Carter gets in eventually, just saying :P

boknows34
10-13-2009, 10:08 PM
I think Willie Anderson deserves some consideration for Canton. He was a right tackle who made Pro Bowls. That is a big deal for a right tackle and he was great for a very long time between Cincinnati and Baltimore

Pace, Ogden, W.Jones and Roaf were in a different class and your future HOF tackles from that era. Shame about Boselli's career being cut short as he had HOF talent up there with any of them. Totally destroyed Bruce Smith in a playoff game in the mid 90s.



PS Donald Driver has no chance whatsoever. He is in the Jimmy Smith, Keenan McCardell, Rod Smith category. In other words Hall of Very Good.

Moss, Harrison, TO, Holt and Bruce have the best chance as their careers are either apparently at an end (Harrison) or in their twilight years. Moss and TO have 136 and 140 TD catches respectively. Only Rice has more. Going back to Driver he's 34 years old and has only 45 TD catches.

Bruce is the only receiver other than Rice to break 15,000 yds and one of 5 ever to reach 1,000 receptions. The high profile given to The Greatest Show on Turf and that game-winning TD in the Super Bowl vs the Titans should be the icing on the cake for Bruce.

Holt is closing in on the 900 catch and 13,000yd barrier. Reggie Wayne is a name to watch out for in the future. It helps having Peyton Manning throwing to you and he will remain the Colts #1 target for the next few years. He turns 31 later this year and already has over 600 rec and 8,000 yds. Considering his career avg of 14.1 yds he could end up with 1,000 rec for 14,000 yds with a Super Bowl ring. Ocho Cinco is on a similar pace to Wayne's numbers and has twice been a 1st team All-Pro.

WRs have a difficult time getting into Canton. Carter and Reed have been snubbed though Carter should make it very soon. Tim Brown may even have to wait a while. I can't see him jumping the queue ahead of Carter.

Raiderz4Life
10-13-2009, 10:13 PM
Driver is as consistent as they come...just not elite. Everyone would love to have a Driver on their team because of his reliability...great player not elite

Brothgar
10-13-2009, 11:15 PM
Yay or Nay
Terrell Owens WR Buffalo - YAY
Resume:
5x All Pro Selection
6x Pro Bowl Selection
#6 all time in career receptions
#5 all time in career receiving yards
#2 all time in Career receiving TDs
Receiving TD league leader in 2001, 2002, and 2006
No Super Bowls

Jason Taylor LB/DE Miami - NAY (or maybe a long time wait)
Resume:
AP DPOY 2006
4x All Pro selection 3x first team
6x Pro Bowl Selection
#12 All Time Career Sacks (many above him are not HoFers yet)
No Super Bowls

Fred Taylor RB New England - NAY
Resume:
#15 All Time Career Rushing Yards (all in front of him either are or will be in the hall and even some under him.)
#33 All Time Rushing TDs
1x Pro Bowl
1x All Pro
0 Super Bowl

Richard Seymour DE New England -
Resume:
3x Super Bowl Winner (as starter)
5x Pro Bowl Selection
3x First Team All Pro
#179 all time in sacks


Alan Faneca G New York Jets - YAY
Resume:
8x Pro Bowl Selection
5x All Pro Selection
1x Super Bowl Ring as starter.
Anyone who makes 8 Pro Bowls is in the Hall

Ed Reed S Baltimore - YAY
Resume:
5x Pro Bowl Selection
5x All Pro Selection
AP DPoY 2004
Led League in picks 2004 and 2008
Currently #52 in career picks (13 away from top 10)

Jamal Lewis RB Cleveland - NAY
Resume:
#23 Career Rushing Yards
#40 Career TD
1x Pro Bowl
1x All Pro
1x SB Winner

Troy Polamalu S Pittsburgh
Resume:
5x Pro Bowl
3x All Pro (2 First Team)
2x Super Bowl Winner (as Starter)
Not in the top 300 in career INTs

Hines Ward WR Pittsburgh- YAY
Resume:
4x Pro Bowl Selection
3x All Pro Selection
2x Super Bowl Winner
1x Super Bowl MVP
#16 All Time Receptions
#30 All Time Receiving Yards
#28 All Time Receiving TDs

Kevin Mawae C Tennessee - YAY
Resume:
7x Pro Bowl Selection
3x All Pro Selection

Antonio Gates TE San Diego - YAY
5x Pro Bowl Selection
3x First Team All Pro
Currently holds record for TDs in one season by a TE
Currently #83 all time in receiving TDs (that includes WRs)
Currently #153 in career receptions (that includes WRs)
Currently #188 in career yards (that includes WRs)


Brian Waters G Kansas City - NAY
Resume:
4x Pro Bowl
2x All Pro

Zach Thomas LB - YAY
Resume:
7x Pro Bowl Selection
7x All Pro Selection (5x 1st team 2x 2nd team)
1773 career tackles

Lorenzo Neal FB Oakland - I withhold my opinion due to my soft spot for FBs.


Nnamdi Asomough CB Oakland - Too early to call but right now NAY

Champ Bailey CB Denver - YAY
Resume:
8x Pro Bowler
6x All Pro (3x 1st 3x 2nd team)
#57 All Time Career INTs
Lead league in INTs in 2006 with 10

Brian Dawkins S Denver - YAY
Resume:
7x Pro Bowl Selection
4x All Pro Selection all first team
#135 All Time Career INTs

Brian Westbrook RB Phiadelphia - NAY
Resume:
1x All Pro
2x Pro Bowl
#75 All Time Career Rushing Yards
#118 All Time Career Rushing TDs

Donovan McNabb QB Philadelphia - NAY
Resume:
5x Pro Bowl
2004 NFC OPoY
#26 All Time Completions
#33 All Time Career Yards
#28 All Time Career TDs

Steve Hutchinson G Minnesota - YAY
Resume:
6x Pro Bowl Selection
6x All Pro Selection (5x first team 1x Second)

Brian Urlacher LB CHICAGO
6x Pro Bowl Selection
4x All Pro Selection
2005 DPoY
2000 DRoY


Orlando Pace LT Chicago YAY
Resume:
7x Pro Bowl
4x All Pro
1 SB Victory

Kurt Warner QB Arizona - YAY
Resume:
4x Pro Bowl Selection
2x All Pro Selection
2x NFL MVP
1x SB MVP
1x SB Champ

Drew Brees QB New Orleans - NAY
Resume:
3x Pro Bowl Selection
2x All Pro Selection
1x NFL OPoY
NFL Comeback Player of the Year
#36 Passes Completed
#49 Passing Yards
#46 Passing TDs

Rhonde Barber CB Tampa Bay YAY
Resume:
5x Pro Bowl Selection
5x All Pro Selection
1x Super Bowl Selection
#98 in Career INTs


Ben Roethlisberger QB Pittsburgh YAY
1x NFL OPoY
2x Super Bowl Champ
NFL ROY
#112 Career Completions
#110 Career Yards
#105 Career TDs

Brothgar
10-13-2009, 11:20 PM
the only reason barry sanders is in the hall of fame is because he had one of the best o-line's in front of him, and notice how as soon as people started leaving that o-line he mysteriously retires... what a front runner

I usually don't neg rep people but that fully deserves it.

RAVENS/WIZARDS/ORIOLES
10-14-2009, 10:23 AM
Ed Reed don't have a ring. I am pretty sure he came shortly after that season

Geo
10-14-2009, 10:48 AM
Ed Reed don't have a ring. I am pretty sure he came shortly after that season
Correct, drafted in 2002.

He did help the University of Miami win the national championship in 2001, but obviously he wasn't with the 2000 Ravens.

Brothgar
10-14-2009, 10:01 PM
What about Darren Sharper and Drew Bledsoe are they Hall of Famers?

Discuss.

Raiderz4Life
10-15-2009, 01:15 AM
What about Darren Sharper and Drew Bledsoe are they Hall of Famers?

Discuss.

Drew Bledsoe has no chance in hell....Sharper...he's sort of on the fence IMO

Stranger
10-15-2009, 02:28 AM
Saw this today.

Kurt Warner needed only 113 NFL games (and only 105 starts) to achieve 50 300-yard passing games, easily the fastest in league history. The Dolphins’ Dan Marino, the previous fastest, needed 176 games.

http://www.azcardinals.com/news-and-events/article-1/At-The-Epicenter/c672b02f-6452-4fdf-a87d-2a01e04a1800

Since this is my second Warner post I thought I would ask a more interesting question. Which of these four receivers ends up in the hall?

Boldin
Fitzgerald
Holt
Bruce

For me they all probably have a shot, but with the competition at WR in this era I say only Bruce and Fitzgerald get in.

Rosebud
10-15-2009, 02:45 AM
Saw this today.



http://www.azcardinals.com/news-and-events/article-1/At-The-Epicenter/c672b02f-6452-4fdf-a87d-2a01e04a1800

Since this is my second Warner post I thought I would ask a more interesting question. Which of these four receivers ends up in the hall?

Boldin
Fitzgerald
Holt
Bruce

For me they all probably have a shot, but with the competition at WR in this era I say only Bruce and Fitzgerald get in.

I'll probably agree, although Torry Holt was one of the top 5 receivers for a few years as well as having some nice production.

Shiver
10-15-2009, 03:01 AM
There are a few players that I think will make the Hall of Fame that I would fight to the death to not make it in. All of which belong in the hall of the very good, but were they dominant players? I don't think so.

Ronde Barber - He was a good C2 corner, he tackled well, he blitzed and got more sacks than any other corner. On the Bucs defense, in its hey day, I would argue that he wasn't even the third most important defensive player on that unit. Warren Sapp was the center point, then Derrick Brooks, then Lynch, (Simeon Rice on the '02 unit took them over the top), then I would put Barber. He was never a shut-down man corner and I think those are the only guys who should make the HoF.

Hines Ward - In an age of the dominant, game changing play-makers Ward doesn't fit in. Teams never changed their game-plan around Hines Ward like they did with Randy Moss or Terrell Owens. He reminds me of Keyshawn Johnson, a good possession receiver, great blocker, but Hall of Fame worthy? No way. Another myth is that Pittsburgh's run heavy system hindered his stats, in fact the system under Arians now and Mularkey back in 2002 worked to Ward's benefit.

Halsey
10-15-2009, 03:25 AM
Hines Ward has more TD's,, receptions, 1,000 yard seasons, Pro Bowl appearances, All-Pro team selections, Super Bowl rings and Super Bowl MVP's than Keyshawn Johnson. Invalid comparison alert! I'm also pretty sure you don't know whether teams game planned for him or not.

BlindSite
10-15-2009, 03:47 AM
Hines Ward has more TD's,, receptions, 1,000 yard seasons, Pro Bowl appearances, All-Pro team selections, Super Bowl rings and Super Bowl MVP's than Keyshawn Johnson. Invalid comparison alert! I'm also pretty sure you don't know whether teams game planned for him or not.

The production simply might not be there, he's still a good four thousand yards at this point than the likes of Marvin Harrison. Hell, Mushin Muhummad has more career yards.

He's got a lot of goods 800+ receptions, 10,000+ yards and 72 TDs, but I don't like his chances unless he stays healthy and produces for another 3 or four seasons.

Big game Holt is a similar guy, who I think deserves to be in, but might not have the lofty numbers needed these days.

11,000+ yards, just under 900 receptions and 74 tds.

It's hard to guage, but based on their current numbers alone, I don't think they'll make it. Maybe they will with the rings and with the probowls etc, but who knows. It's not so clear cut.

Caddy
10-15-2009, 04:26 AM
There are a few players that I think will make the Hall of Fame that I would fight to the death to not make it in. All of which belong in the hall of the very good, but were they dominant players? I don't think so.

Ronde Barber - He was a good C2 corner, he tackled well, he blitzed and got more sacks than any other corner. On the Bucs defense, in its hey day, I would argue that he wasn't even the third most important defensive player on that unit. Warren Sapp was the center point, then Derrick Brooks, then Lynch, (Simeon Rice on the '02 unit took them over the top), then I would put Barber. He was never a shut-down man corner and I think those are the only guys who should make the HoF.

Hines Ward - In an age of the dominant, game changing play-makers Ward doesn't fit in. Teams never changed their game-plan around Hines Ward like they did with Randy Moss or Terrell Owens. He reminds me of Keyshawn Johnson, a good possession receiver, great blocker, but Hall of Fame worthy? No way. Another myth is that Pittsburgh's run heavy system hindered his stats, in fact the system under Arians now and Mularkey back in 2002 worked to Ward's benefit.

The other statistic that seems to always come up when people are talking about Ronde making the Pro-Bowl is the fact he is the only CB in NFL history to have both 20 sacks and 20 interceptions throughout his career. I'm pulling for him to make it and the reason is pretty obvious.

Rosebud
10-15-2009, 04:37 AM
seriously though, sacks? We're talking about a corner, not a DE, LB or even safety but a freakin corner. I mean seriously, how many great corners get to blitz even once a game? It's such a pointless stat, now TFLs I could see being used to illustrate how well a corner shut down the edge against the run, but even that would be secondary, but sacks? That just seems like a nice tidbit but not something worthy of actual consideration when debating whether ronde deserves to be in the hall of not.

fenikz
10-15-2009, 04:39 AM
Saw this today.



http://www.azcardinals.com/news-and-events/article-1/At-The-Epicenter/c672b02f-6452-4fdf-a87d-2a01e04a1800

Since this is my second Warner post I thought I would ask a more interesting question. Which of these four receivers ends up in the hall?

Boldin
Fitzgerald
Holt
Bruce

For me they all probably have a shot, but with the competition at WR in this era I say only Bruce and Fitzgerald get in.

Boldin holds all the records so far though, fastest player to 100, 200, 300, & 400 receptions I believe

Shiver
10-15-2009, 05:19 AM
Hines Ward has more TD's,, receptions, 1,000 yard seasons, Pro Bowl appearances, All-Pro team selections, Super Bowl rings and Super Bowl MVP's than Keyshawn Johnson. Invalid comparison alert! I'm also pretty sure you don't know whether teams game planned for him or not.

Ward was the better player, but he is more comparable to Keyshawn Johnson than he is to the truly elite players at played in this era. To me dominance is the primary focus of the Hall of Fame. You cannot say he impacted the game like Jerry Rice, Cris Carter, Marvin Harrison, Randy Moss or Terrell Owens.

Sure he is a great blocker and he was on some great teams. But can a guy who is behind Joey Galloway, Derrick Mason, Mushin Muhammad, Keyshawn Johnson, Torry Holt, Jimmy Smith, Keenan McCardell on the all time pasing yards list make the Hall of Fame? Does his blocking really make up for that?

FUNBUNCHER
10-15-2009, 08:10 AM
Hines Ward has more TD's,, receptions, 1,000 yard seasons, Pro Bowl appearances, All-Pro team selections, Super Bowl rings and Super Bowl MVP's than Keyshawn Johnson. Invalid comparison alert! I'm also pretty sure you don't know whether teams game planned for him or not.

I know it's not fair, but with each passing class it will be harder for this next crop of WRs to make it into Canton. Simply put, there's just too many of them who had elite production but there's no way to imagine them all getting in.

Hines Ward, I could see getting the call after 5 + years of eligility, outstanding production, great Steeler, but never really viewed as one of the NFL's great WRs.

Keyshawn won't make it because I think his numbers aren't there in comparison to his peers, no rings, bad attitude.

I'm telling ya, we'll look back in 10-15 years and say how many of this generations great wideouts were screwed by not making the HOF.

B-Dawk
10-15-2009, 08:15 AM
the only wrs who are playing that should be in the HoF are Moss, Owens, Harrison. Holt was on his way before these last couple years.

FUNBUNCHER
10-15-2009, 08:19 AM
Yeah, what could I see in Barber over Bailey.

It couldn't be that Ronde is the first and only cornerback in NFL history with 20 career sacks and 20 career picks. To be exact:

37 career interceptions, 24 career sacks, and also 12 career forced fumbles. Goodness knows how many pass deflections he has in his career, NFL.com says he had 102 from 2001 until now, no data available from 1997-2000.

Or that he made big plays in big games including the postseason. Has 12 career touchdowns (7 from interceptions, 4 from fumbles, 1 punt return).

Or that he consistently played well year after year over the course of his career.

Or that he was a complete cornerback who limited the effectiveness of opposing offenses, a physical tackler who limited touchdowns allowed.

Or that he was a linchpin of one of the league's best defenses in this era.

Or that he was one of the core players who completely turned around the Tampa Bay Buccaneers franchise from a laughing stock to a championship winner.


PS. The word is asinine, not assinine. Although that was ironically quite fitting.

Agree with your post, however oftentimes HOF selections come down to reputation of a player, not necessarily production on the field.

Yes, Barber arguably has been a top 10-15 CB his entire career, but how many mediots or analysts have ever described him in this manner??

I'm afraid Barber doesn't have the sizzle for many HOF voters the way Champs does. League wide, I think Ronde has been VASTLY underrated. Bottom line, Barber will have a steep uphill crawl to make it into Canton.

It's also partly the reason I think Richard Seymour has a chance to be a 1st ballot HOFer because many regard him as the best defensive player on the Pats SB teams and one of the NFL's greatest Dlineman during his prime, and I don't even have to reference his numbers to confirm or deny this opinion.

EDIT: Torry Holt, Marshall Faulk, and Curt Warner are all virtual locks for the HOF.

Faulk goes first, and depending when they retire, it will be Warner 2nd, Holt 3rd.

RAVENS/WIZARDS/ORIOLES
10-15-2009, 08:40 AM
I know it's not fair, but with each passing class it will be harder for this next crop of WRs to make it into Canton. Simply put, there's just too many of them who had elite production but there's no way to imagine them all getting in.

Hines Ward, I could see getting the call after 5 + years of eligility, outstanding production, great Steeler, but never really viewed as one of the NFL's great WRs.

Keyshawn won't make it because I think his numbers aren't there in comparison to his peers, no rings, bad attitude.

I'm telling ya, we'll look back in 10-15 years and say how many of this generations great wideouts were screwed by not making the HOF.

If you are talking about Keyshawn Johnson I am pretty sure he has a ring with the bucs

Brothgar
10-15-2009, 09:10 AM
Drew Bledsoe has no chance in hell....Sharper...he's sort of on the fence IMO

Drew Bledsoe YAY
4x Pro Bowl Selection
2x All Pro Selection
1x Super Bowl Champ*
#6 in Career Completions
#8 in Career Yards
#13 in Career TD Passes
Holds 10 Buffalo Bill Single Season Records

* Bledsoe's Super Bowl victory is widely considered Tom Brady's first Super Bowl but IIRC it was Bledsoe who started all but what the 2nd half of the AFC championship game and the Super Bowl.


Darren Sharper
4x Pro Bowl
4x All Pro
Currently #9 in Career INTs.

FUNBUNCHER
10-15-2009, 09:47 AM
Bledsoe isn't going into the HOF. He never had the rep to back up his #s.

Think about it, have you ever seen a game and heard Bledsoe described or compared to the greats to ever play, or as a future HOfer?? Was he ever considered a clutch performer, or just a very good QB??

IMO, Bledsoe doesn't have that separation as a player you need to get the votes needed to go into Canton.

Zac Thomas will never sniff the HOF either.

49ers1984
10-15-2009, 09:47 AM
Drew Bledsoe YAY
4x Pro Bowl Selection
2x All Pro Selection
1x Super Bowl Champ*
#6 in Career Completions
#8 in Career Yards
#13 in Career TD Passes
Holds 10 Buffalo Bill Single Season Records

* Bledsoe's Super Bowl victory is widely considered Tom Brady's first Super Bowl but IIRC it was Bledsoe who started all but what the 2nd half of the AFC championship game and the Super Bowl.


Darren Sharper
4x Pro Bowl
4x All Pro
Currently #9 in Career INTs.


I really do not see a guy who got benched for a player who won the Superbowl making the Hall of Fame.

Brothgar
10-15-2009, 09:56 AM
I really do not see a guy who got benched for a player who won the Superbowl making the Hall of Fame.

Bledsoe wasn't benched he was injured.

Rosebud
10-15-2009, 03:43 PM
Drew Bledsoe YAY
4x Pro Bowl Selection
2x All Pro Selection
1x Super Bowl Champ*
#6 in Career Completions
#8 in Career Yards
#13 in Career TD Passes
Holds 10 Buffalo Bill Single Season Records

* Bledsoe's Super Bowl victory is widely considered Tom Brady's first Super Bowl but IIRC it was Bledsoe who started all but what the 2nd half of the AFC championship game and the Super Bowl.


Darren Sharper
4x Pro Bowl
4x All Pro
Currently #9 in Career INTs.

Bledsoe was injured in like week 3 and then Brady took over and when Drew was healthy again he stayed on the bench until getting shipped out to buffalo.

Brothgar
10-15-2009, 04:29 PM
Bledsoe was injured in like week 3 and then Brady took over and when Drew was healthy again he stayed on the bench until getting shipped out to buffalo.

Granted but he still has HoF numbers. I mean we have people putting McNabb and Brees in the Hall and when all is said and done neither will match Bledsoe's numbers.

Raiderz4Life
10-15-2009, 04:36 PM
Granted but he still has HoF numbers. I mean we have people putting McNabb and Brees in the Hall and when all is said and done neither will match Bledsoe's numbers.

Yes but neither of them got benched twice and traded or let go. He also only has 45 more TD's than INTs and a QB rating of 77.1....not HoF stats

Brothgar
10-15-2009, 05:02 PM
Yes but neither of them got benched twice and traded or let go. He also only has 45 more TD's than INTs and a QB rating of 77.1....not HoF stats

So I guess guys like George Blanda, Y.A. Tittle, Dan Fouts, Terry Bradshaw, Sammy Baugh, and Sonny Jurgensen don't have HoF numbers either because all of them are close or worse than Bledsoe in terms of TD/INT ratio

QB rating is the worst stat ever and I don't recognize it as a reason to keep a player out of the HoF.

Crazy_Chris
10-15-2009, 05:39 PM
Granted but he still has HoF numbers. I mean we have people putting McNabb and Brees in the Hall and when all is said and done neither will match Bledsoe's numbers.

This isn't the Baseball HOF either, just getting a certain amount of stats isn't and shouldn't garuntee you a spot in the HOF. Is Drew Bledsoe a HOF? not in my opinion but there are certianly guys arleady in with worst stats. Drew Bledsoe has a nice line of stats for his career but when you look a lil bit deeper there are some other compelling figures that hurt him badly IMO.

For instance his career record is only 98-95 barely above .500 not good. Also in proably the biggest factor for HOF QB, post season play he has pretty bad numbers. In his 14 year career he has lead his team to the postseason 3 times(and made it a 4th time when tom brady got the pats in). In those post season apperances he is 4-3(in games he started or played in). His stats for the 7 post season games are 129-252 51.2% 1335 yards 6 TD 12 Int 54.9 rating 5.3 YPA.

Drew definatly has some nice career numbers in terms off passing yards, completeions, touchdowns and so forth. But in this day in age of passing just about any good QB the plays long enough can put up huge numbers. Vinny Testevearde has more passing yards more TDs, and is one spot below bledsoe on career completions. Is Testeveare a HOF? I don't think so. Kerry Collins has 3266 career completions, 38,471 yards, 191 TDs, the only difference between Collin's numbers and Bledsoe's is the bledsoe started nearly 30 more games(as of now). Is Collins a HOF? I think pretty much everyone woud say no.

BlindSite
10-15-2009, 08:20 PM
Yes but neither of them got benched twice and traded or let go. He also only has 45 more TD's than INTs and a QB rating of 77.1....not HoF stats

You mean like Kurt Warner?

yourfavestoner
10-15-2009, 08:28 PM
People are really arguing for Drew Bledsoe to be in the Hall of Fame? Gross...

Hawk
10-15-2009, 08:33 PM
You mean like Kurt Warner?

Kurt Warner has 2 MVPs, played in 3 Super Bowls winning 1, and has had much better seasons than Bledsoe.

Bledsoe is far from a HOFer. He was a serviceable QB that has average stats for being the 1st overall pick. His lone SB ring was won by the guy that replaced him, some scrub named Brady.

Bengalsrocket
10-15-2009, 11:36 PM
So I guess guys like George Blanda, Y.A. Tittle, Dan Fouts, Terry Bradshaw, Sammy Baugh, and Sonny Jurgensen don't have HoF numbers either because all of them are close or worse than Bledsoe in terms of TD/INT ratio

QB rating is the worst stat ever and I don't recognize it as a reason to keep a player out of the HoF.

A lot of those guys did things that Bledsoe never had to do, in a completely different era where it was much harder to be a QB.

I mean for one thing, Baugh is one of the guys that is widely credited for helping the forward pass being such a big part of the NFL. He also played 3 different positions, one year leading the league in all 3 categories (passing / punting / interceptions). He also had the second best all time (was a record then, it's 2nd now) completion percentage for a single season.

Dan Fouts was setting records, throwing massive amounts of touchdowns and forever changing the league as other teams realized that you can do those kinds of things that he pioneered. Before Dan Fouts, no one had ever thrown 4,000 yards in back to back seasons, and Dan is one of only seven guys to throw 30 touchdowns in back to back seasons. Furthermore, he did all of this under center, not standing back in the shotgun like a lot of QB's do today.

As far as Y.A. Tittle goes, I think he was one of those guys that just had an impressively long career that led to huge numbers, some of which people really hadn't seen at the time. Sort of like Brett Favre now -- we all know that he isn't the greatest of all time, in fact some people actually dislike his play style, but we still recognize that he is basically guaranteed a spot in the Hall of Fame based on setting a lot of records and such due to longevity.

These guys that got into the HoF 15+ years ago were just like Peyton Manning and Tom Brady at the time of their induction. They may not have great stats by today's standards, but they were pioneers or they were outstanding back then. Furthermore, it was a completely different game than it is today; for example, all of those guys you mentioned had to call their own plays. Never once did they have an ear piece in their helmet telling them what to do.

Stranger
10-16-2009, 12:49 AM
Boldin holds all the records so far though, fastest player to 100, 200, 300, & 400 receptions I believe

I don't think his body is going to hold up well enough to put up the longevity numbers he will need though. Which is a shame because I love him as a player.

Also I think Reggie Bush has broken some of the fastest player to records IIRC

boknows34
10-17-2009, 03:13 AM
So I guess guys like George Blanda, Y.A. Tittle, Dan Fouts, Terry Bradshaw, Sammy Baugh, and Sonny Jurgensen don't have HoF numbers either because all of them are close or worse than Bledsoe in terms of TD/INT ratio

QB rating is the worst stat ever and I don't recognize it as a reason to keep a player out of the HoF.


Those guys played in a completely different era - one where the passing game was vastly more difficult to the one Bledsoe played in.

Bledsoe doesn't have a snowball's chance in hell of making Canton. I was going to mention and compare him to Testaverde's numbers but Crazy Chris has summed it up perfectly.

49ers1984
10-17-2009, 03:07 PM
Granted but he still has HoF numbers. I mean we have people putting McNabb and Brees in the Hall and when all is said and done neither will match Bledsoe's numbers.

So what he played a long time and had a lot of yards that does not make him a HOFer. He was never one of the best qbs in the league that alone is reason enough.

Shiver
10-19-2009, 01:43 AM
Kurt Warner has 2 MVPs, played in 3 Super Bowls winning 1, and has had much better seasons than Bledsoe.

Bledsoe is far from a HOFer. He was a serviceable QB that has average stats for being the 1st overall pick. His lone SB ring was won by the guy that replaced him, some scrub named Brady.


Bledsoe - no way in hell
Warner - 1st ballot, no brainer

It isn't even a question in my mind.

Halsey
10-19-2009, 08:27 AM
If Hines Ward continues his current pace, he'll finish the season with over 100 catches and 1,500 yards. He's certainly not hurting his resume this year.

49ers1984
10-20-2009, 06:58 PM
If Hines Ward continues his current pace, he'll finish the season with over 100 catches and 1,500 yards. He's certainly not hurting his resume this year.

the problem is he has never been considered an elite wr.

P-L
10-20-2009, 07:33 PM
I'm glad Draft Countdown members don't vote for the hall of fame. Drew Bledsoe? Was that a serious question? Why the hell would Drew Bledsoe get in the Hall of Fame when guys like Dave Kreig, Boomer Esiason, and Vinny Testaverde are not? Hell, John Hadl had comparable numbers when the passing game wasn't nearly as developed as it is now. I'm not picking on anyone in particular, but some of these suggestions are asinine.

fenikz
10-20-2009, 07:34 PM
Warner has basically become a no brainer for HoF but might as well sum up his career so far.

12 Seasons, 30,032 Passing Yards, 190 TD, 119 INT, 65.6% completion, 93.7 Rat

4x Pro Bowl
2x MVP
2x All Pro
3x Superbowl Appearances
1x Superbowl Champion
1x Superbowl MVP

-Highest Average Passing Yards Per Game, Career (Min. 100 games) - 259.9 yards/game
-Highest completion percentage in a single game (regular season) - 92.3% (24/26) (9/20/09)
-Most Yards Passing, Super Bowl (Game) - 414 yards vs. Tennessee Titans (only QB to pass for 400+ yards in the Super Bowl; also owns 2nd and 3rd highest yardage total in Super Bowl with 377 against the Pittsburgh Steelers and 365 against the New England Patriots).
-Most Yards Passing, Super Bowl (Career) - 1,156 yards.
-Most Yards Passing, Playoffs (Single Season) - 1,147 yards (in 2009).
-Most touchdown passes in a single postseason - 11 (in 2009, tied w/Joe Montana, who did it in 1990)
-Highest Rate of Games w/300+ Yards Passing (Min. 100 games played) - 45.2% (47/104)
-Most Consecutive Games w/300+ Yards Passing - 6 (tied w/ Steve Young and Rich Gannon)
-Most Games with a perfect Passer Rating, Career (regular season only) - 3 (tied w/Peyton Manning and Ben Roethlisberger)
-Only NFL quarterback to throw 40 touchdowns and win a Super Bowl in the same season (1999).
-One of only 5 players in NFL history to throw for more than 300 yards at least 50 times. Warner did it in 113 games, also a record.
-One of two quarterbacks to throw for over 13,000 yards with two different teams.
-At age 37, Warner became the oldest quarterback to throw for 30 touchdowns in a season (2008).
-Tied Dan Marino as the fastest player to pass for 30,000 yards. He accomplished this in 114 games.

P-L
10-20-2009, 07:39 PM
Peyton Manning, Tom Brady, and Kurt Warner are the only quarterbacks who aren't in the hall of fame now, that are "guaranteed" to be based on their overall body of work. There are a couple of guys (Roethlisberger being the most glaring) who have a decent shot, if they keep playing at a high level for the next 5-10 years.

Brothgar
10-20-2009, 07:52 PM
Peyton Manning, Tom Brady, and Kurt Warner are the only quarterbacks who aren't in the hall of fame now, that are "guaranteed" to be based on their overall body of work. There are a couple of guys (Roethlisberger being the most glaring) who have a decent shot, if they keep playing at a high level for the next 5-10 years.

Brett Favre says 'HI!'

JordanTaber
10-21-2009, 02:33 AM
Torry Holt belongs nowhere near the HOF.

Besides the obvious reasons (glorified #2 receiver with zero deep speed and being the worst runner after the catch in football...maybe of his entire generation, product of Mike Martz's system and was revealed as nothing more than a #2 after Martz left), the man made just one Associated Press First team All Pro team.

What's more, he was only mentioned twice--the year he was first team (2003) and some bizarre second team mention in 2006 when he had under 1200 yards with 10 TDs.

I will shoot up Canton if he is ever inducted.

Rosebud
10-21-2009, 02:37 AM
Torry Holt belongs nowhere near the HOF.

Besides the obvious reasons (glorified #2 receiver with zero deep speed and being the worst runner after the catch in football...maybe of his entire generation, product of Mike Martz's system and was revealed as nothing more than a #2 after Martz left), the man made just one Associated Press First team All Pro team.

What's more, he was only mentioned twice--the year he was first team (2003) and some bizarre second team mention in 2006 when he had under 1200 yards with 10 TDs.

I will shoot up Canton if he is ever inducted.

You should start a thread for your intriguing ideas.

P-L
10-21-2009, 10:36 AM
Brett Favre says 'HI!'
I already consider Brett Favre to be in the Hall of Fame. Hasn't it been five years since he retired? http://draftcountdown.com/forum/images/icons/icon12.gif

But seriously, I knew I'd forget someone in my angry rant.

Halsey
10-21-2009, 10:43 AM
the problem is he has never been considered an elite wr.

Eventually his career accomplishments will overcome mere perceptions. He's already got 2 rings, a Super Bowl MVP, over 10,000 rec. yards, almost 850 receptions, 75 TD's, etc. It's quite possible he could retire with over 1,000 catches and 100 TD's. If he does, they might as well go ahead and make his bust.

P-L
10-21-2009, 10:43 AM
Torry Holt belongs with Andre Reed, Keenan McCardell, and Jimmy Smith. That is, outside of Canton.

Brothgar
10-21-2009, 10:58 AM
I already consider Brett Favre to be in the Hall of Fame. Hasn't it been five years since he retired? http://draftcountdown.com/forum/images/icons/icon12.gif

But seriously, I knew I'd forget someone in my angry rant.

You forgot about Bret Favre!?!?!

Quick Bret retire and unretire again.

nobodyinparticular
10-21-2009, 11:30 AM
How about this:

When he was playing, I thought for sure that Tim Brown would get into the Hall of Fame. Then as he ended his career, people started doubting him. What do you think?

My problem with this is that there was only ever one player who was across the board better than him--Jerry Rice. Other than that, Tim Brown's career stats are intertwined with Chris Carter's for 2nd and 3rd all-time in all of the major categories. I don't think there should be any question--Tim Brown is a Hall of Famer.

Anyone else?

Raiderz4Life
10-21-2009, 11:34 AM
Timmie Brown for sure is in...1st ballot? IDK but eventually

49ers1984
10-21-2009, 03:52 PM
Eventually his career accomplishments will overcome mere perceptions. He's already got 2 rings, a Super Bowl MVP, over 10,000 rec. yards, almost 850 receptions, 75 TD's, etc. It's quite possible he could retire with over 1,000 catches and 100 TD's. If he does, they might as well go ahead and make his bust.

It does not matter how much career stats he piles up. Career stats are not going to get Drew Bledsoe in. He was on some great teams so was Santonio Holmes who also has a Super Bowl MVP are you going to put him in to?

Halsey
10-21-2009, 04:30 PM
Yeah, scoring touchdowns doesn't matter. They're just a stat. They don't count for points or anything like that.

I'm not even gonna bother with that argument. If Ward gets to 1,000 catches and 100 TD's, he's in. If you think that kind of production is 'just stats' then you don't understand football.

Brothgar
10-21-2009, 04:33 PM
Yeah, scoring touchdowns doesn't matter. They're just a stat. They don't count for points or anything like that.

I'm not even gonna bother with that argument. If Ward gets to 1,000 catches and 100 TD's, he's in. If you think that kind of production is 'just stats' then you don't understand football.

Then what is the difference between Ward's stats getting him in and Bledsoe's stat's not getting him in?

Paranoidmoonduck
10-21-2009, 04:42 PM
Then what is the difference between Ward's stats getting him in and Bledsoe's stat's not getting him in?

Bledsoe's numbers don't place him in the same stratosphere as 1,000 catches and 100 TD's would place Ward in. We're talking about a modern quarterback who's only had two years where his passer rating topped 85. He's never won the big game and his career was almost immediately overshadowed by his replacement in New England. He doesn't really have much of a case.

Halsey
10-21-2009, 04:45 PM
Then what is the difference between Ward's stats getting him in and Bledsoe's stat's not getting him in?

Oh, so now you're gonna twist my argument as if I'm claiming Ward only has stats to make his case. Yeah, because his 2 rings, Super Bowl MVP, 3 All Pro Teams, great blocking, leadership, popularity, etc don't mean anything.

I'll go ahead and head this argument off before any of you even try it:

"but, but Halsey, things like leadership and popularity don't count"

Puhlease. There's a reason they call it the Hall of Fame. It's highly political. The fact that Ward is a highly popular player for a premier organization will only help his case.

RAVENS/WIZARDS/ORIOLES
10-21-2009, 04:46 PM
Bledsoe's numbers don't place him in the same stratosphere as 1,000 catches and 100 TD's would place Ward in. We're talking about a modern quarterback who's only had two years where his passer rating topped 85. He's never won the big game and his career was almost immediately overshadowed by his replacement in New England. He doesn't really have much of a case.

Hines Ward needs to die so he won't get in. I will be pissed when he gets in and I will not watch it.

Halsey
10-21-2009, 04:48 PM
name three times hines ward was the best wr in football. hell, let's make it three times he was a top 3 wr in football.

is vinny testaverde a hall of famer? or a compiler? is isaac bruce a hall of famer or a compiler? fred taylor?

great stats do NOT necessarily get someone into the hall.

That would be a relevant argument if Ward had nothing but great stats going for him.

Halsey
10-21-2009, 04:55 PM
so you can't name three times he was a top three wr. got it.

You're asking me to quantify an opinion. Do you want me to name how many times Ward was the best WR in your opinion or mine? Personally, I like going with facts. Some people might think that Art Monk, Steve Largent, John Stallworth and James Lofton were not 'top 3 WR's' at any time during their careers, but they're in.

Paranoidmoonduck
10-21-2009, 04:55 PM
so you can't name three times he was a top three wr. got it.

Can you do the same for Art Monk or James Lofton?

RAVENS/WIZARDS/ORIOLES
10-21-2009, 05:04 PM
What does admitting he has never been a top 3 WR do?

Halsey
10-21-2009, 05:12 PM
I'll go with 2002, 2003 and now.

In 02 and 03 he combined for 207 catches, 2,500 yards, 22 TD's, who knows how many bone shattering blocks and 2 All Pro teams. Right now he's leading the NFL in catches, yards , catches of 20+ yards, and, of course, he's still knocking people's heads off.

RAVENS/WIZARDS/ORIOLES
10-21-2009, 05:18 PM
I'll go with 2002, 2003 and now.

In 02 and 03 he combined for 207 catches, 2,500 yards, 22 TD's, who knows how many bone shattering blocks and 2 All Pro teams. Right now he's leading the NFL in catches, yards , catches of 20+ yards, and, of course, he's still knocking people's heads off.

Well now he is going to say 3 years don't get you into the hall of fame

Paranoidmoonduck
10-21-2009, 05:29 PM
If Ward gets in, it's going to be for longevity, not dominance. If he can play at a high level for another 4 years or so, he'll likely blow by the 1000/100 mark. At that point, he's very likely going to be a Hall of Famer.

Halsey
10-21-2009, 05:34 PM
Longevity doesn't make a guy a 3 time All Pro. Just because Ward isn't a glamour WR, like Owens or Moss, doesn't mean he's not dominant. There's more to playing WR than highlight catches.

Ravens1991
10-21-2009, 05:41 PM
Hines Ward might not even be a top 8 WR of this decade.

Marvin Harrison
Randy Moss
TO
Larry Fitzgerald
Andre Johnson
Chad Ocho Cinco
Steve Smith
Anquan Boldin

are better then him and have better careers IMO, Hines Ward has big blocks on players big whoop, is Roy Williams S going to the HOF because he is a punishing tackler? Maybe I am biased but I dont think he should get in.

Paranoidmoonduck
10-21-2009, 05:54 PM
Longevity doesn't make a guy a 3 time All Pro. Just because Ward isn't a glamour WR, like Owens or Moss, doesn't mean he's not dominant. There's more to playing WR than highlight catches.

He's made three 2nd team All-Pro squads. It's impressive, but it's not a indicator that he's a brilliantly dominant player (which he isn't).

Crazy_Chris
10-21-2009, 06:44 PM
Longevity doesn't make a guy a 3 time All Pro. Just because Ward isn't a glamour WR, like Owens or Moss, doesn't mean he's not dominant. There's more to playing WR than highlight catches.

There is also more to being a HOF than just big career numbers. Ok so we have established that there is a good chance Hines Ward will finish with 1000+ receptions around 12,000 yards and maybe 100 TDs. At the end of the day yes those are very nice career numbers for a WR. But as I stated with the Drew Bledsoe debate this is not the Baseball HOF, achieveing a certian amount of career numbers doesn't and should not garuntee you a spot in Canton.

Take a deeper look at Hines Ward's career, This will be his 12 year playing out of the 12 years he amassed 1000 yards 5 times(looks to be 6 this year). Of those 5 times 3 of them were barely above the 1000 mark(1003,1004,1043), which is a fairly simple accomplishment for a very good starting WR. Only 1 time so far has he amassed over 1200 yards(once again on pace to smash 1,200 this year). That doesn't exactly scream elite HOF WR. He is a very good all around WR that has been consistently good over his career. As mentioned Hines also bring value as a very good blocker, but how much does that really count for? Should the hall look at a very good career WR as a HOF just because he was a good blocker aswell?

Look at the sure fire HOF WRs from his generation, Randy Moss, Terrel Owens, and Marvin Harrison. Does anyone seriously think that Hines Ward belongs mentioned with that group?

I sure as hell don't think so I am not not even sure he should be mentioned with the 2nd tier possible HOF's such as Isaac Bruce, and Torry Holt(for the record I am not sold on either of them 2 even being HOFs). Than you look at a bit of the younger WR's from this generation...

Andre Johnson
Larry Fitzgerald

Chad Ochocinco
Anquan Boldin
Reggie Wayne

Chad Ochocinco, Anquan Boldin, and Reggie Wayne will more than likely all end up with similar career numbers as far as yardage, receptions, and TDs. In my opinion thats where Hines Ward fits in, maybe. I would say they have all been more of an elite WR at points in their career than Hines Ward.

Now I do not think Hines Ward should be in the HOF , but that doesn't mean i think he has absolutly no shot at making it. As it has been brought up there have been over WR's in the that have been questionably dominant. But as NJX mention that is the exception not the rule. Honestly give me someone like Sterling Sharpe(short term dominance) as a HOF WR over Hines Ward(long term consistency).

crossroads
10-21-2009, 06:49 PM
The three 2nd team All-Pros are impressive, but how did he even make it on the 2004 team? I know the Steelers were awesome that year an all, and were a run heavy team (being Ben's rookie year and what not), but Ward only had 1004 yards and 4 touchdowns. He didn't finish in the top 10 in any major receiving category.

As for the Hall of Fame, I don't personally think he should make it, he's been very good but not great or elite. However, if the question is "will he make it?" if he hits 100 touchdowns or 1000 receptions I think he probably will be eventually inducted. He's well liked by most of the media (aka the voters), will have good numbers and the accompanying accomplishments and accolades (rings, Super Bowl MVP, playing for top teams) to be voted into the hall.

bored of education
10-21-2009, 09:43 PM
Somone who it is too early for, but if he keeps up what he does he will be a HoFer. Jared Allen. 27 years old. 65 career sacks. 29 pass deflections. 3 safetys. 19 forced fumbles. He could have a mediocre 5 more years averaging 10 sacks and have near 110 sacks at the age of 32. He has been elite and seems to be getting better with each year. But like I said too early now, 4 more years at the top of the game averaging like 14 sacks then we can talk. but till then mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm. jared allen

Ravens1991
10-21-2009, 09:59 PM
yea that guy is a beast.


Do you all think Ed Reed gets in if he retires after this season? w/ his neck I dont think he has a lot of years left.

MetSox17
10-21-2009, 10:10 PM
yea that guy is a beast.


Do you all think Ed Reed gets in if he retires after this season? w/ his neck I dont think he has a lot of years left.

I might vote him on just on the fact that he was probably the best safety in the NFL for a good five, six years.

49ers1984
10-22-2009, 07:34 PM
Bledsoe's numbers don't place him in the same stratosphere as 1,000 catches and 100 TD's would place Ward in. We're talking about a modern quarterback who's only had two years where his passer rating topped 85. He's never won the big game and his career was almost immediately overshadowed by his replacement in New England. He doesn't really have much of a case.

Bledsoe is in the top ten all time in yards with Hall Of Famers such as Dan Marino and Brett Farve that is some good company

Paranoidmoonduck
10-22-2009, 07:52 PM
Bledsoe is in the top ten all time in yards with Hall Of Famers such as Dan Marino and Brett Farve that is some good company

It also puts him in company with "guys like" Vinny Testaverde. And considering that passing yardage is easily Bledsoe's best argument for being in the Hall, that's not good enough company.

(also, being in the top 10 of something doesn't equal being in company of the top 2 of something, especially considering that Brett Favre is still active and has 50% more passing yards than Bledsoe)

As for Ward, if he hits the 1000/100 mark, this is his company...

1000 receptions:
Now: Jerry Rice, Marvin Harrison, Cris Carter, Tim Brown, Isaac Bruce
Likely (by the time Ward gets there): Terrell Owens, Tony Gonzalez, Torry Holt, Randy Moss

There are two guys there who are not sure-fire HOFers (Holt and Bruce) and I'd wager at least one of those two gets in, maybe both.

100 touchdowns:
Now: Rice, Owens, Moss, Carter, Harrison, Brown, Largent
Likely: Gonzalez, Holt, Bruce (maybe)

Once again, only Holt and Bruce are the guys who might be there without an induction.

Then you look at Ward's profile. He's a team leader, has shown up big in the playoffs, hasn't really dropped off as he's gotten older, had one of the most well-rounded games of any receiver during his time in the NFL, and has been huge in presenting the NFL to Asian nationalities. If (I repeat, IF) he can play until he's 37 or 38 and at least three of those remaining seasons is where he's at right now, I'd bet money he gets in.

Brothgar
10-22-2009, 08:36 PM
It also puts him in company with "guys like" Vinny Testaverde. And considering that passing yardage is easily Bledsoe's best argument for being in the Hall, that's not good enough company.



First off it is 'guy like' Testaverde. Everyone else in the top 11 is in the HOF (or will be in the cases of Favre and Manning). Secondly, You guys act like Bledsoe had a 20 year career like Vinny FACT is that he had a shorter career than anyone else in the top 10 save Peyton Manning. Its not like it is only Yards that he is in the top 10 for. He's also top 10 in completions Everyone else in the top 10 save Vinny is in the HOF as well. He is also #13 in Career TD completions and there is only one non HOF ahead of him as well.

CC.SD
10-22-2009, 08:52 PM
Tough to believe there is really a debate over Hines. He will unquestionably get in.

Exhibit A:
http://www.pittsburghlive.com/photos/2007-10-25/1025ward-b.jpg

Exhibit B: MVP in the Super Bowl.

Plus Canton has an interesting history with Super Bowl winning, slightly underqualified Pittsburgh wideouts.

GB12
10-22-2009, 09:17 PM
Puhlease. There's a reason they call it the Hall of Fame. It's highly political. The fact that Ward is a highly popular player for a premier organization will only help his case.Highly popular player in Pittsburgh maybe, but he's nowhere even close to being a popular player nation wide.

First off it is 'guy like' Testaverde. Everyone else in the top 11 is in the HOF (or will be in the cases of Favre and Manning). Secondly, You guys act like Bledsoe had a 20 year career like Vinny FACT is that he had a shorter career than anyone else in the top 10 save Peyton Manning. Its not like it is only Yards that he is in the top 10 for. He's also top 10 in completions Everyone else in the top 10 save Vinny is in the HOF as well. He is also #13 in Career TD completions and there is only one non HOF ahead of him as well.
Well that doesn't mean ****. You don't get rewarded for having a short career. He had a shorter career because he wasn't good enough to be a starter in his later years. If he had a 20 year career his stats wouldn't look much better than they do now because they'd be spent on the bench.

Longevity and consistency is part of it. A guy that played 12 years and had 260 TDs should be in over a guy that played 9 years and had 220 TDs. The stats should be looked at as totals, not averages.

neko4
10-22-2009, 09:31 PM
so, let's say kerry collins sparks an incredible turnaround this season and throws for about 3100 yards. does that make him a hall of fame qb, too? i mean, he'd be top ten. over hofers like montana and unitas. he MUST be a better qb, right?

statistical arguments are weak. and sure, he had a shorter career. he also threw the 5th most passes EVER. hooray for compilers. :rolleyes:
There are ways to make good statistical arguments.

*Average per game
Looking at production based on per game averages is better than per season since some seasons the player was a rookie and didnt play, or was hurt, or was very old, etc.

*Comparison
Its worth comparing that player's production to other players of the same position during the same time. Looking at Don Hutson's stats you probably wouldnt realize he was the most dominating WR of the NFL for many years, but when you compare his stats to others of his time, things look much different.

I thought up some other ideas, but i cant remember them.

Brothgar
10-22-2009, 10:47 PM
Ok guys I give up. Seriously what does a guy have to do to get in your HoF? You always say "Well he wasn't the best of his era." How the **** do you determine if he was the best of his era? I mean SB victories gets you on the fast track granted. But if that was all that matters Dan Marino wouldn't be in. Better yet what's Warren Moon done that makes him in that Bledsoe hasn't? Warren Moon wasn't MVP ever nor was he a SB champ. His stats aren't THAT much higher than Bledsoe's either.

Brothgar
10-22-2009, 11:17 PM
I'm glad Draft Countdown members don't vote for the hall of fame. Drew Bledsoe? Was that a serious question? Why the hell would Drew Bledsoe get in the Hall of Fame when guys like Dave Kreig, Boomer Esiason, and Vinny Testaverde are not? Hell, John Hadl had comparable numbers when the passing game wasn't nearly as developed as it is now. I'm not picking on anyone in particular, but some of these suggestions are asinine.

You are consistent in saying that there should be four locks for the HoF and a bunch that shouldn't be in the discussion. If we look at it that way Bledsoe is not going to make it. Strait up. But, when we start throwing names like Donovan McNabb and even Drew Brees in to the convo then it seems like a no Brainer that Bledsoe get in.

Plus njx9, I didn't simply look his stats up on nfl.com I am nearly 26 years old I was alive and activly watching football at age 10. Also I was living in Vermont. So I got to see quite a bit of the Pats games. k thx bai.

To add an argument of "He wasn't the best player of his era" is just as lame as a statistical argument. Then the Hall becomes a popularity contest.

yourfavestoner
10-22-2009, 11:43 PM
the hall should be reserved for the truly elite. having never even been the best wr in a single year in the nfl is, imo, fairly damning evidence against election.

again, there are clearly exceptions. however, if you have to pick from, say, hines ward and terrell owens, who goes? the guy who was good his entire career, or the guy who was great for the vast majority of his career? it's not like they can vote in every single guy with some numbers.

^^^^^^This cannot be emphasized enough. There's only a limited number of guys voted in per year, so people are gonna get left out. Something like 1% of everybody who has ever played in the NFL eventually make it into the Hall of Fame.

DexterM
10-22-2009, 11:56 PM
The fact that Drew Bledsoe and Hines Ward are even being DISCUSSED in a Hall of Fame conversation makes me vomit.

If mentioning a player doesn't make every single person playing against that player instantly plan on stopping him, he shouldn't be in the hall. If the player hasn't had years of domination, he shouldn't be in the hall. If the player never struck fear into the hearts of opponents and fans, where they knew that no matter how good they did, it wouldn't be good enough, they shouldn't be in the hall.

Hell, I think there are players there that shouldn't be there. I'm all for respecting great players, but not every great player should make it in. It's the elite, the ones where ten, fifteen years from now people *still* can't believe the things they accomplished. 10 years from now, nobody is going to give two shits about Hines Ward or Drew Bledsoe.

Brothgar
10-23-2009, 12:02 AM
The fact that Drew Bledsoe and Hines Ward are even being DISCUSSED in a Hall of Fame conversation makes me vomit.

If mentioning a player doesn't make every single person playing against that player instantly plan on stopping him, he shouldn't be in the hall. If the player hasn't had years of domination, he shouldn't be in the hall. If the player never struck fear into the hearts of opponents and fans, where they knew that no matter how good they did, it wouldn't be good enough, they shouldn't be in the hall.

Hell, I think there are players there that shouldn't be there. I'm all for respecting great players, but not every great player should make it in. It's the elite, the ones where ten, fifteen years from now people *still* can't believe the things they accomplished. 10 years from now, nobody is going to give two shits about Hines Ward or Drew Bledsoe.

If that is the case then we shouldn't be discussing any of the "border line cases" that were set in the OT (I think). In that case there is no border line cases you are in or you're out there should be no discussion.

DexterM
10-23-2009, 12:33 AM
I suppose. If someone is a borderline case at the end of their career, they shouldn't get in.

You know why guys like Randy Moss, Peyton Manning, Tom Brady are sure fire hall of famers? Aside from the stats, all three of them are guys where it simply doesn't matter who they're playing against, what you throw at them, or how you try to stop them, they'll simply beat you. No matter who you have on your team. They're unquestionably the best players when they step on the field (well, I suppose Tom and Randy step on the field at the same time right now... but you know what I mean).

Being in the Hall isn't something you can really boil down to stats. It isn't something where you can flukily have a good year and get in. It's something where you FORCE EVERYONE to recognize that you deserve to be in that elite class, and they have no choice but to put you there.

GB12
10-23-2009, 01:01 AM
The fact that Drew Bledsoe and Hines Ward are even being DISCUSSED in a Hall of Fame conversation makes me vomit.

If mentioning a player doesn't make every single person playing against that player instantly plan on stopping him, he shouldn't be in the hall. If the player hasn't had years of domination, he shouldn't be in the hall. If the player never struck fear into the hearts of opponents and fans, where they knew that no matter how good they did, it wouldn't be good enough, they shouldn't be in the hall.

Hell, I think there are players there that shouldn't be there. I'm all for respecting great players, but not every great player should make it in. It's the elite, the ones where ten, fifteen years from now people *still* can't believe the things they accomplished. 10 years from now, nobody is going to give two shits about Hines Ward or Drew Bledsoe.
Best point in this thread right here.

Raiderz4Life
10-23-2009, 01:27 AM
Drew Bledsoe's legacy is gonna be the guy that got replaced by a young gun in NE and then again in Dallas plus his stint with the Bills

Brent
10-23-2009, 01:36 AM
Best point in this thread right here.
Well, there is a reason we have to wait 7 years (IIRC) after they retire.

MetSox17
10-23-2009, 02:23 AM
Well, there is a reason we have to wait 7 years (IIRC) after they retire.

I think it's only five, but i'm not entirely sure.

Raiderz4Life
10-23-2009, 02:41 AM
I think it's only five, but i'm not entirely sure.

Yea I think it is 5 as well

Brent
10-23-2009, 02:46 AM
I think it's only five, but i'm not entirely sure.
"To be eligible for the nominating process, a player must have been retired at least five years, and a coach must be retired (as of 2007, retired for five years). Any other contributor such as a team owner or executive can be voted at any time." -Wiki

You, sir, are correct. Point still remains, they make people wait to avoid a major kneejerk reaction, though the argument could be made for it to be more time.

Halsey
10-23-2009, 06:21 AM
The idea that it's outlandish to debate Ward's credential's is a joke. You're likely a fan of a team or player that Ward has owned if you take that view. Take off the Ed Reed jersey and calm down. It's not outlandish to debate the merits of a guy who is a 2 time Super Bowl winner, 1 time Super Bowl MVP, on track to finish in the all time top 10-15 in multiple receiving categories, 3 time Al-Pro, only missed 6 games in 12 years, maybe the best blocker ever to play WR, only lost 5 fumbles in his entire career, etc, etc ,etc.

DexterM
10-23-2009, 10:02 AM
The idea that it's outlandish to debate Ward's credential's is a joke. You're likely a fan of a team or player that Ward has owned if you take that view. Take off the Ed Reed jersey and calm down. It's not outlandish to debate the merits of a guy who is a 2 time Super Bowl winner, 1 time Super Bowl MVP, on track to finish in the all time top 10-15 in multiple receiving categories, 3 time Al-Pro, only missed 6 games in 12 years, maybe the best blocker ever to play WR, only lost 5 fumbles in his entire career, etc, etc ,etc.

Seriously? I'm a Jets fan. Ward has never really done anything that spectacular against my team.

Want to use stats for him? I'll use stats against him. Ward has ONCE totalled over 1200 yards receiving, a mark that 8 receivers went over LAST YEAR. If Ward doesn't reach 1000 receiving yards this year, it means that 5 out of the twelve years he was in the league he had less than 1000 yards. In his BEST statistical year, he was still only 4th in receiving yards.

Fumbles lost isn't something that is going to determine getting into the hall. Making the 2nd team All Pro isn't going to get you in the hall.

Ward is a good player right now. But he's not NEARLY qualified for the Hall of Fame.

Shiver
10-23-2009, 10:16 AM
I love the projection: you all must be biased against Ward, a 'Ravens' fan' or someone who Ward has "owned," when he is a Georgia fan and what school did Ward play for? Oh yeah, Georgia. A coincidence I am sure. A fact of the matter is if Ward gets in, it will be after Tim Brown, Isaac Bruce, Torry Holt, Randy Moss, Terrell Owens, Andre Reed, Rod Smith and Derrick Mason. (a little hyperbole, but not completely untrue.)

crossroads
10-23-2009, 10:39 AM
The Hall of Fame is for the elite players, the all time greats. If you can make as strong of an argument for why a player shouldn't be in the hall of fame as you can for why he should be, then that player is not a hall of famer. There are really only a couple players at each position playing in the NFL right now that are, at the moment, hall of fame players, and that includes a few free agents who have yet to officially hang up the cleats. If i had to list the Hall of Fame players currently still in the NFL by position they would be:
QB: Manning, Brady, Favre

RB: Tomlinson

WR: Moss, Owens, Harrison

TE: Gonzalez

OL: Orlando Pace, Walter Jones

DL: Richard Seymour, Jason Taylor

LB: Ray Lewis, Derrick Brooks, Zach Thomas

CB: Champ Bailey

S: Brian Dawkins, Ed Reed, Troy Polamalu

To me, those are the players currently playing who are Hall of Famers. Sure, there are those who in the midst potential Hall of Fame careers, but we've seen enough players careers end abruptly due to injury, and enough players level of play fall of quickly and drastically that it's ridiculous to speculate on what a players eventual numbers will be. Adrian Peterson is arguably the best player in the league right now, but if he blew out his knee next week and never played another meaningful down of football he wouldn't be a Hall of Famer.

Even with Hines Ward, yeah he might make it to 1000 catches/100tds but he's also 33 and could fall of in a year or two. Marvin Harrison was 34 the last time he played at a high level. Someone like Rod Smith (who i think Ward is closer to in terms of production/impact/talent level then the top tier guys) pretty much fell off the face of the earth after he reached 35. And while the 1000 catches/100 td club is pretty exclusive right now, by the time Ward retires and is eligible for induction he'll have a lot more company up there.

Halsey
10-23-2009, 01:41 PM
The problem with the whole elite players debate is it's too stats and glamour based. Things like blocking, leadership, fundamentals, etc don't get taken into consideration by glamour fans. It's not the Hall of fantasy football and highlights.

And on the subject of Ward again: I wonder what his stats would look like if he played for a team and QB that Harrison did. Ward has spent a good part of his career catching passes from guys like Tommy Maddox and Kordell Stewart, while playing for a team that many years is a heavy 'run first' team. In fact, in 2004, 2005 and 2007 the Steelers were dead last, dead last and second to last in the league in passing attempts. I've never seen where their passing attempts were far above average.

Halsey
10-23-2009, 01:48 PM
What I said was that you have to be biased to think it's outlandish to debate Ward's credentials for the Hall. Any reasonable person can see that Ward is at least going to be nominated. I didn't say you are biased if you say he shouldn't get in. Many of you guys seem to struggle with arguing what people say and instead spin what they say. Try focusing your attention for a few sentences and actually pay attention to what is said.

Oh, and it doesn't really make sense to say something is fact and then turn around and say it's hyperbole. At least focus on what you yourself say. :D

Rosebud
10-23-2009, 02:34 PM
Ward has never been an elite receiver, thus he doesn't deserve to make it to the hall, no matter what sort of production he gets from now on.

CC.SD
10-23-2009, 02:39 PM
Drew Bledsoe's legacy is gonna be the guy that got replaced by a young gun in NE and then again in Dallas plus his stint with the Bills

Doesn't he also have the completions record in the Super Bowl? Not that I think he's Canton bound.

Gates will be get in too, he is looking better than ever.

Raiderz4Life
10-23-2009, 03:13 PM
Doesn't he also have the completions record in the Super Bowl? Not that I think he's Canton bound.

Gates will be get in too, he is looking better than ever.

You mean the one where Bledsoe compled 25 of 48 passes for 253 yards, 2 touchdowns, and 4 interceptions???

the decider13
10-23-2009, 03:13 PM
Too much Hines Ward, not enough Rod Smith

CC.SD
10-23-2009, 03:17 PM
You mean the one where Bledsoe compled 25 of 48 passes for 253 yards, 2 touchdowns, and 4 interceptions???

Hm my memory must be going, I could have sworn Bledsoe held some kind of prominent completions record.

Shiver
10-23-2009, 03:48 PM
Too much Hines Ward, not enough Rod Smith


Exactly, if Ward gets in it will be after Smith.

Rosebud
10-23-2009, 03:50 PM
Seriously, outside of being on more good teams what's the difference between Ward and someone like Amani Toomer?

MarioPalmer
10-23-2009, 05:39 PM
Mario Williams pwn sauces all DE's in the league right now...he is sooooo CA$H

Raiderz4Life
10-23-2009, 05:44 PM
Mario Williams pwn sauces all DE's in the league right now...he is sooooo CA$H

Sweet jesus....don't get this thread locked as well.

MarioPalmer
10-23-2009, 06:08 PM
Sweet jesus....don't get this thread locked as well.

Well, Peppers will be in, Allen will be in, and I think that if Mario can average 10 sacks a year for 10 years then he will be in as well. Defensive players have a different quota to fill. They can't help that their offense can't score or that there secondary can't cover a ham sandwich. Defenders to me, are like offensive lineman, how many Pro-Bowls have they been too and how dominant were they.

For example, I think that Cortez Kennedy and Erin Swan should be HoF DT's. They dominated for terrible teams, and were perrienial Pro-Bowl players. Aneas Williams should be a HoF CB. So I think that Mario, if he dominats for 10 years should be in Hall.

the decider13
10-23-2009, 06:10 PM
Mario Williams pwn sauces all DE's in the league right now...he is sooooo CA$H

If only there was a DE from the same draft as Mario with more sacks...

**sig**

MarioPalmer
10-23-2009, 06:12 PM
If only there was a DE from the same draft as Mario with more sacks...

**sig**

Too bad that scrub got destroyed as a REAL DE, so he had to move to wussyville OLB in the 3/4. Get owned scrub, no 4-3 would pick Dumer over Mario. Get educated and stop dick ridin.

MarioPalmer
10-23-2009, 06:13 PM
Got to go kiddies, work is over and time to get bent, have a nice night, oh and Dumer is garb in a 4-3, just if didn't get my last post, anywayzzzz...later