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Shane P. Hallam
09-06-2009, 09:50 AM
Via Adam Schefter and ESPN. Will get links now.

http://www.nationalfootballpost.com/Wilson-Report-Patriots-trading-Richard-Seymour-to-Raiders.html

Malaka
09-06-2009, 09:52 AM
Wow, thats huge, why would they do something like this? I know to get younger but whose going to replace Seymour at DE this season... are they really that unconfident that they will win big this year?

GaMeTiMe
09-06-2009, 09:52 AM
What a typical Patriots move..2011 1st? I'd be surprised if he's still in Oakland heading into that season.

Shane P. Hallam
09-06-2009, 09:53 AM
This is one way for the Raiders to get the DT they need though I guess.

FlyingElvis
09-06-2009, 09:54 AM
somebody please stop the madness

Wootylicous
09-06-2009, 09:56 AM
Surprising move to say the least. omgz. a first round pick of the raiders means a high pick I presume.

Thumper
09-06-2009, 09:58 AM
woah, didn't see that coming... Good move by the Raiders but the Patriots missed on this one IMO.

vidae
09-06-2009, 09:59 AM
Wow, surprising.

Just what the Pats need, a top 10 pick in 2011.

BmoreBlackByrdz
09-06-2009, 10:00 AM
Wow, this is a suprise, but its a good move on the Raiders part. But is he worth a 1st rounder? And who will be replacing him? Ron Brace?

scottyboy
09-06-2009, 10:00 AM
this is surprising and a pretty big move. that's gonna be a high pick though. another time where they'll end up with a high pick and get another Mayo calibur player early in the 1st.

FlyingElvis
09-06-2009, 10:01 AM
Wow, surprising.

Just what the Pats need, a top 10 pick in 2011.

That's just it - we cut Seymour to save money so we can pay an unproven rookie more?

This offseason has been a nightmare.

Shane P. Hallam
09-06-2009, 10:05 AM
Well, I wouldn't assume it will be a high pick. A lot can happen in two years, and the Raiders defense continues to improve. If the Raiders come out next year with a solid draft, it could be a mid round pick and be worth it for them.

wonderbredd24
09-06-2009, 10:07 AM
This move would look even better if they took Raji instead of Heyward-Bey.

I guess this takes them out of the Gerald McCoy sweepstakes though

scottyboy
09-06-2009, 10:07 AM
Well, I wouldn't assume it will be a high pick. A lot can happen in two years, and the Raiders defense continues to improve. If the Raiders come out next year with a solid draft, it could be a mid round pick and be worth it for them.

Jbond, you know Al Davis is still running them, right?

I mean I do like their D a lot right now, a lot is riding on Jamarcus though. Who knows? We all rip on the Raiders but something could happen. They've got a good D and a very good group of RB's and a QB with potential. We'll see though

toonsterwu
09-06-2009, 10:07 AM
I'm stunned, and yet, not. There's been talk of more 4-3 looks, and with the contracts up in 2010, it makes some sense. That said, Seymour was still a leader for this defensive unit, particularly with all that older guys moving on. As we've seen from BB though, he'll cut who he wants and live with it. I imagine we'll see Jarvis Green step in, who should be alright, and when they show 4-3 looks, it'll be Green/Burgess on the edges. They are trying to remake themselves on the fly, without losing a step. It'll be interesting to see if it works.

CC.SD
09-06-2009, 10:08 AM
Al probably figures he'll be dead by then. I guess the Pats really like Brace.

Malaka
09-06-2009, 10:10 AM
If Mario Henderson plays well at LT, the Raiders O-Line will not actually be that bad... Robert Gallery may be a bust at LT, but he is a very good OG in the NFL, and Samson Satele had a bad year in Miami only because Sparano's offense scheme did not fit him well but with the ZBS that the Raiders run he will play like he did his rookie year. Other than that, the offense is pretty scary, Run DMC, Michael Bush, Fargas are all good runningbacks. They don't have a true #1 WR, but Johnnie Lee Higgins is a very underrated player, as is Chaz Schillens, if DHB is anything close to what Al Davis thinks he is that is not a horrible trio. Lastly, they have an excellent TE in Zach Miller who has hands of glue, and blocks pretty damn well, if he was faster he'd be a top 5 TE in the league.

The defense doesn't look all that bad, if they can play at a respectable level I think this Raiders team is being underrated right now. The last if that needs to be dealt with is how well JaMarcus Russell will play, if he plays well I do not think that it is out of the realm of possibilities that the Raiders can go 8-8 or 9-7, especially in a weak AFC West, and maybe even win the division if the Chargers go ahead and play like they did last season.

Gay Ork Wang
09-06-2009, 10:12 AM
just wow...

Don Vito
09-06-2009, 10:13 AM
I hate seeing Seymour go more than anyone, he was a rookie our first Super Bowl year and has been a dominant force on the DL. He set a standard for 3-4 ends and was the centerpiece of our defense I would say. This is sad because it makes me think we really are trying to go towards the 4-3 more.

He was a FA after this year and I was pretty sure he was gone (need to sign Wilfrok and Mankins) so I'm sure the coaching staff wanted to get something for him now, but this just hurts. Big Rich won't look right in any other uniform.

DON'T TRADE THE ******* DRAFT PICK!!! DRAFT SOMEONE WITH IT!!!

vidae
09-06-2009, 10:14 AM
Every year is the year the Raiders defense is supposed to step up and be a respectable unit. It's hard not to love them on paper, but until they step up and show they're capable of what everyone thinks I won't hold my breath.

Malaka
09-06-2009, 10:18 AM
Every year is the year the Raiders defense is supposed to step up and be a respectable unit. It's hard not to love them on paper, but until they step up and show they're capable of what everyone thinks I won't hold my breath.

The defense is not what's impressing me right now, its the offense, that unit has the potential to be scary, and if the Raiders defense can play respectable, we know they are pretty good against the pass, but with the addition of Seymour they will vastly improve against the run. Tommy Kelly does not deserve the contract Al gave him but he is not a horrible player either, Seymour and Kelly paired on the middle would provide a pretty good run D at least up the middle.

BradysKnee
09-06-2009, 10:19 AM
Sad to see Seymour go, but unlike most Pats fans here, I love the move.

He would've been gone this year anyway, and this frees up space to extend wilfork and/or Mankins.

That's a 2011 Top Ten pick, which can be traded, or if a rookie pay scale is instituted becomes REALLY valuable. I think Brace/Burgess/Green will do fine, especially given the 4-3 looks this preseason.

Seymour was beginning to slow down, but is still a dominant tackle, the Pats must be confident in that DL rotation. I personally love this move.

TheBuffaloBills
09-06-2009, 10:20 AM
You've got to be kidding me.

BeerBaron
09-06-2009, 10:24 AM
Anyone sitting back and thinking this is a good move for the Raiders and bad for the Pats is just crazy right now...

For one, Seymour only has a year left on his deal iirc. And there was no word that the Raiders signed him to an extension as part of the trade, so he very well could be gone by the time the 2011 draft even happens. You'd hope that the Raiders aren't that stupid but....they probably are.

And for the Pats, you get something in return for a guy who would have been tough to resign after this season anyway. Wilfork is younger and arguably more critical to the success of their defense, so extending him is far more important.

And let's not forget, this is the Pats. Love them or hate them, they get **** done and keep right on rolling. Next player will step in and we might not even notice a difference...

NIN1984
09-06-2009, 10:24 AM
2011 is interesting. Raiders need to draft Cody in 2010 and build the 3-4

DE Kelly
NT Cody
DE Seymour

superman8456
09-06-2009, 10:24 AM
That's a 2011 Top Ten pick, which can be traded, or if a rookie pay scale is instituted becomes REALLY valuable. I think Brace/Burgess/Green will do fine, especially given the 4-3 looks this preseason.


Thats an ignorant statement, not to say that Im surprised its coming from a Pats fan though.

RaiderNation
09-06-2009, 10:27 AM
Holy ****, just got woken up at 8 am after getting drunk off my ass for this. Seymour is a good fit for us. Al finaly realized the dline sucks, so we get a Pro Bowler to play DT or DE. We also are close to signing vet DT Alfonso Boone who in a 4-3 is a alright run stopper

Ellis Kelly Boone/Warren Seymour on running downs

Ellis Kelly Seymour Scott on passing downs

Pretty respectable dline IMO. Biggest thing for me though is we resign him. 4 year deal for probably around 40-60 mil sounds accurate. Also we might not have a salery cap so that allows us to resign our good players

I really believe by 2011, we will be much improved, Russell will be getting in stride, DMC and Bush will be running all over the field, Chaz if healthy will be looking raw, DHB will look good running straight(lol), Miller will be one of the top TE's, and hopefully our oline is solid. No we wont be superbowl contenders, but we shouldnt be picking top 15 hopefully

Don Vito
09-06-2009, 10:28 AM
It makes sense for the Pats because he was a FA after this year and he was probably going to be the odd man out with Wilfork and Mankins needing to be signed, but it still sucks to see us lose Seymour. He has been a monster ever since he came here and will be missed terribly.

Thumper
09-06-2009, 10:29 AM
Honestly I think this is a fantastic move for the Raiders.

You've got a young offense that is developing quickly with Jamarcus Russell, Michael Bush, Darren McFadden, Johnnie Lee-Higgins, Chaz Schilens and Zach Miller. That is a ton of talent and I didn't even account for DHB. If Jamarcus pulls it together this season, watch the Raiders offense because their offensive line is solid and they have explosive options all over the field.

Their main weakness was run defense, especially up the middle and I think that brining in Richard Seymour helps fix that. I think we all remember that he was drafted sixth overall as a DT out of Georgia. He will help take some double teams up the middle, penetrate the middle and keep the lineman off of Morrison and Howard. And with the secondary as good as it is with Aso the defense is a lot more complete right now in Oakland, not great but at least they won't get run over completely now. It also provides leadership and experience to a team where there is no clear cut leader.

But for New England I am left scratching my head. Who replaces him at DE? Jarvis Green? Are they really that confident in him, that they think he can replace the best 3-4 end in the NFL? I think the Patriots just lost a leader and a HUGE part of their defense. But it likely means that they are going to keep Vince Wilfork around with the money saved. But regardless, you don't just move a talent like Seymour on a dime like that especially when your replacement is Jarvis Green, who is good but no where near as good as Seymour.

Don Vito
09-06-2009, 10:30 AM
Thats an ignorant statement, not to say that Im surprised its coming from a Pats fan though.

Who are you kidding honestly

Malaka
09-06-2009, 10:33 AM
I am also really high on DE Matt Shaughnessy, think he can be a 8-12 sack guy in the NFL, while playing very well against the run. Also didn't Trevor Scott or w.e his name is play very well at DE last year for the Raiders.

BeerBaron
09-06-2009, 10:33 AM
Honestly I think this is a fantastic move for the Raiders.

You've got a young offense that is developing quickly with Jamarcus Russell, Michael Bush, Darren McFadden, Johnnie Lee-Higgins, Chaz Schilens and Zach Miller. That is a ton of talent and I didn't even account for DHB. If Jamarcus pulls it together this season, watch the Raiders offense because their offensive line is solid and they have explosive options all over the field.

Their main weakness was run defense, especially up the middle and I think that brining in Richard Seymour helps fix that. I think we all remember that he was drafted sixth overall as a DT out of Georgia. He will help take some double teams up the middle, penetrate the middle and keep the lineman off of Morrison and Howard. And with the secondary as good as it is with Aso the defense is a lot more complete right now in Oakland, not great but at least they won't get run over completely now. It also provides leadership and experience to a team where there is no clear cut leader.

But for New England I am left scratching my head. Who replaces him at DE? Jarvis Green? Are they really that confident in him, that they think he can replace the best 3-4 end in the NFL? I think the Patriots just lost a leader and a HUGE part of their defense. But it likely means that they are going to keep Vince Wilfork around with the money saved. But regardless, you don't just move a talent like Seymour on a dime like that especially when your replacement is Jarvis Green, who is good but no where near as good as Seymour.

Oh wait, did someone touch on some of these points at the end of the first page but it was forgotten because it was at the end of a page which I hate having happen?

Anyone sitting back and thinking this is a good move for the Raiders and bad for the Pats is just crazy right now...

For one, Seymour only has a year left on his deal iirc. And there was no word that the Raiders signed him to an extension as part of the trade, so he very well could be gone by the time the 2011 draft even happens. You'd hope that the Raiders aren't that stupid but....they probably are.

And for the Pats, you get something in return for a guy who would have been tough to resign after this season anyway. Wilfork is younger and arguably more critical to the success of their defense, so extending him is far more important.

And let's not forget, this is the Pats. Love them or hate them, they get **** done and keep right on rolling. Next player will step in and we might not even notice a difference...

Bills2083
09-06-2009, 10:35 AM
That's just it - we cut Seymour to save money so we can pay an unproven rookie more?

This offseason has been a nightmare.


I haven't really been following what the Pats have been doing?
Why has it been so bad?

DeepThreat
09-06-2009, 10:37 AM
This is beyond stupid by the Raiders. Seymour is in his contract year for one. And there's the fact that he turns 30 in October. And he can't seem to stay healthy anymore.

I don't see Seymour making that much of a difference for the Raiders. Even if he's on the field, their team isn't that great, and they are being overrated by many.

Great move by the Pats. They get what will most likely be a top 10, or even top 5 pick, for someone they were going to lose this offseason. Add that with his durability issues, and it's a downright steal.

But this is in no way a sign of the Pats moving to a 4-3. They'll probably try to resign Wilfork, and him and Warren are both perfect fits for the 3-4. Brace is a 3-4 guy as well.

I wonder if they'll try Brace at end now?

RaiderNation
09-06-2009, 10:46 AM
Enough of he is not healthy. He played 15 games last year and tied in career high in sacks(8). This should be a good trade for both teams if we can resign him to a 4-5 year deal.

Malaka
09-06-2009, 10:50 AM
You guys really think top 5? I doubt it, maybe top 10 but I can really see the Raiders finishing in the top 20 especially considering that the AFC West is pretty damn weak. I honestly like the Raiders more than the Chiefs and I can see the Raiders finishing 8-8 behind only the Chargers in the West.

YAYareaRB
09-06-2009, 10:55 AM
Hopefully he doesn't..

"Move to the town and do nothing like Warren Sapp"

senormysterioso
09-06-2009, 11:00 AM
You guys really think top 5? I doubt it, maybe top 10 but I can really see the Raiders finishing in the top 20 especially considering that the AFC West is pretty damn weak. I honestly like the Raiders more than the Chiefs and I can see the Raiders finishing 8-8 behind only the Chargers in the West.

It's hard to say what will happen in 2011. Teams go from drafting high to the super bowl, a la Arizona and teams go from the super bowl to drafting high a la Oakland. If we know anything about the Patriots and their track record though, it will almost certainly put them in a position to land a stud that they have no right drafting, or they'll trade it for 14 future second round picks and draft their entire starting defense in a season. Things just usually work out for the pats.

FUNBUNCHER
09-06-2009, 11:10 AM
So so trade for the Raiders, great move by the Pats.

Seymour IMO is too old to trade for a more than likely top 15 pick in 2011.

It would have been better to let NE release him and sign Seymour next year as a FA.

Seymour doesn't make the Raiders a playoff contender, and he looks like he'll be gone to a serious playoff team after 2009. The Raiders aren't a player away on defense from making a deep playoff run, therefore the signing of Seymour doesn't make much sense.

But it should make the Raiders a much more unpredicatable team to play and increase their odds of pulling the occasional upset.

Belichick has freon for blood and only ever considers the bottom line, Ws and Ls.

Can't wait to see him try to dump Brady after he has another significant injury.

Bucs_Rule
09-06-2009, 11:16 AM
Its all about estimations. No one can say it will definitly be a top ten pick, but most people agree it is more likely to be ten pick than a pick at the end of the first round.

RAVENS/WIZARDS/ORIOLES
09-06-2009, 11:19 AM
This is HUGE for the Raiders IMO. They get a true defensive leader who can get a little chemistry going on that defense. It doesn't surprise me at all because of how much money he would probably want when his contract is up. Patriots don't over pay to many people.

Matthew Jones
09-06-2009, 11:22 AM
Wow. I'm going to comment on this more when I get back from lunch. For now I'll say best case scenario is Seymour re-signs with Pats after this season (LOL.)

Whistler6
09-06-2009, 11:27 AM
Unless Al Davis dies by 2011, this will be a top 10 pick for the Patriots.

senormysterioso
09-06-2009, 11:31 AM
If it's in the top 20 even, it's more than adequate value for Seymore. This is the second time that the Raiders gave up a first rounder for a two year rental on a player. And ironically both times it seems to have benefited the Pats.

Xonraider
09-06-2009, 11:35 AM
Wow. I'm going to comment on this more when I get back from lunch. For now I'll say best case scenario is Seymour re-signs with Pats after this season (LOL.)

I'd kill someone... I really don't like this move..

bigbluedefense
09-06-2009, 11:40 AM
Steal by the Patriots. Seymour isn't the same player he used to be, and the Patriots have depth at DE.

Now they get rid of him for what will probably be a top 10 pick. He has 2 years left max of productive football. This was another Bellichick swindle.

Plus they have Ron Brace who they can sub in at DE. If ppl haven't noticed, Ty Warren has been their best DE for quite some time now.

Good move by the Pats, desperate move by the Raiders.

Malaka
09-06-2009, 11:42 AM
Steal by the Patriots. Seymour isn't the same player he used to be, and the Patriots have depth at DE.

Now they get rid of him for what will probably be a top 10 pick. He has 2 years left max of productive football. This was another Bellichick swindle.

Plus they have Ron Brace who they can sub in at DE. If ppl haven't noticed, Ty Warren has been their best DE for quite some time now.

Good move by the Pats, desperate move by the Raiders.

I think this will benefit both teams, Pats get something instead of nothing since Seymour was going to be an FA, and the Raiders greatly improve their defense.

I think its a win win especially if Seymour plays well and the Raiders can extend him.

bigbluedefense
09-06-2009, 11:47 AM
I think this will benefit both teams, Pats get something instead of nothing since Seymour was going to be an FA, and the Raiders greatly improve their defense.

I think its a win win especially if Seymour plays well and the Raiders can extend him.

Its a good short term move by the Raiders, but giving up a 1st is a steep price. When you look at the value of this trade, it is heavily in favor of the Pats.

If I were the Raiders, I wouldve rather went after Corey Williams. In my eyes, he's more worth a 1st than Seymour is.

ATLDirtyBirds
09-06-2009, 11:48 AM
I like the move for the Pats. They are obviously confident in their rotation, and now they more than likely have a top 10 pick in '11.

Basileus777
09-06-2009, 11:51 AM
Oakland is crazy, they gave up a high first rounder for a declining 3-4 DE on a one year deal.

Vikes99ej
09-06-2009, 11:58 AM
Pats still have Jarvis Green and Ty Warren, two very talented 3-4 ends. I wouldn't worry about what the Patriots do.

Malaka
09-06-2009, 12:03 PM
Pats still have Jarvis Green and Ty Warren, two very talented 3-4 ends. I wouldn't worry about what the Patriots do.

I thought Jarvis Green was a better fit for a 4-3, doesn't he usually come in for pass rushing situations... I am not 100% sure on this...

49ersfan_87
09-06-2009, 12:04 PM
If Mario Henderson plays well at LT, the Raiders O-Line will not actually be that bad... Robert Gallery may be a bust at LT, but he is a very good OG in the NFL, and Samson Satele had a bad year in Miami only because Sparano's offense scheme did not fit him well but with the ZBS that the Raiders run he will play like he did his rookie year.



Satele isn't even starting. Chris Morris is starting for the Raiders at Center.

C Samson Satele: The trade pickup was the starter until he stunk it up one last time against the Saints. When Miami's Bill Parcells took Jake Grove over Satele, that should've been a clue.

C Chris Morris: He went from fringe swing guy to opening-day starter, all in the past seven days. Wow.
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/blogs/raiders/detail?entry_id=46986

CC.SD
09-06-2009, 12:04 PM
top ten pick... top five pick... ha.

i love how quickly everyone here forgets recent history. atlanta? arizona? i don't even want to actually have to think about why making full stop predictions about a pick that's TWO YEARS away is stupid. not even stupid, ****ing moronic.

Arizona isn't Oakland, NJ. Honestly at this point how can you get angry at people for assuming Oakland won't be pulling out of their tailspin. You mention recent history, well here it is...

2009: 7th pick, Heyward-Bey
2008: 4th pick, D-Mac
2007: 1st pick, Jamarcus
2006: 7th pick, Huff
2005: 7th pick, traded for Moss.
2004: 2nd pick, Gallery.

As Bubba Sparxx would say, UGLY.
qrTJnAr9Ses

senormysterioso
09-06-2009, 12:10 PM
I thought Jarvis Green was a better fit for a 4-3, doesn't he usually come in for pass rushing situations... I am not 100% sure on this...

I saw somewhere that the Patriots are going to focus more on 4-3 this year, maybe they didn't like Seymour as an interior lineman

bigbluedefense
09-06-2009, 12:18 PM
If they go 4-3, they probably plan on going the 2000 Ravens/Recent Jaguars/Vikings route, with 2 big stoute DTs in the middle.

Brace and Wilfork in the middle with Mayo behind them would make it awfully tough for anyone to run the ball.

I still think theyre better in a 3-4 shell though. Im sure we'll see a lot of hybrid looks.

I love Bellichick's schemes <333333.

Jarvis Green is a great 3-4 DE in his own right as well. I can see Brace being subbed in at DE when they wanna go run heavy on D.

CC.SD
09-06-2009, 12:22 PM
I don't really like the fit of Adalius Thomas in a 4-3. Obviously a natural fit in a 3-4. Pats are gearing up for the transition but i don't think it will be quick. Just another chance for BB to throw additional looks at offenses.

bigbluedefense
09-06-2009, 12:25 PM
I don't really like the fit of Adalius Thomas in a 4-3. Obviously a natural fit in a 3-4. Pats are gearing up for the transition but i don't think it will be quick. Just another chance for BB to throw additional looks at offenses.

I think Thomas can work as a DE in a 4-3. He's awfully versatile.

Bellichick is a 3-4 guy at heart. I see the 4-3 hybrid looks as strictly a situational front he'll use to maximize the productivity of his current personnel while he overhauls his defense with youth.

CC.SD
09-06-2009, 12:27 PM
and the three years before that they were a playoff team.

how about arizona? they hadn't had a winning record since 1998 (their ONLY winning season since 1984), then suddenly they were in the nfc championship.

it's just typical swdc silliness. what happened last year is what's always going to happen until it doesn't, then THAT's what's always going to happen until it doesn't. it's borderline braindead to project a pick two years out.

I would agree with you in most cases but I think Oakland could be the exception to the rule here. Where is this franchise if Jamarcus never steps up to the plate? Even deeper down the rabbit hole.

bigbluedefense
09-06-2009, 12:30 PM
I agree with CCSD. If it was any other organization, Id agree with NJX. But this is the Raiders.

Nothing they have done in the past 3 years leads me to believe theyre about to turn the corner. Theyve made bad decision after bad decision. Even bad teams who turn it around, you can sort of anticipate it by seeing progression in games, and with the draft.

But the Raiders are as stagnant as they come. Nothing has changed, they continue to make terrible decisions with their organization.

CC.SD
09-06-2009, 12:30 PM
I think Thomas can work as a DE in a 4-3. He's awfully versatile.

Bellichick is a 3-4 guy at heart. I see the 4-3 hybrid looks as strictly a situational front he'll use to maximize the productivity of his current personnel while he overhauls his defense with youth.

Haha, I'm definitely sold on Thomas' versatility by this point. As far as efficiency though, you have to believe they'd want to keep him in space and find the mismatches. Even though I'm not a huge fan of the Pats, it is extremely impressive to see them make the kind of moves that will be responsible for rejuvenating their D for years to come. Bellichick is the master.

JFLO
09-06-2009, 12:40 PM
If I was Seymour, I would be pissed.

Good pickup by the Raiders and I really don't think it's that big of a deal for the Patriots. They got a 1st round pick out of him (something which I don't think they would have gotten next year) and the Raiders are bound to suck by 2011, right?

keylime_5
09-06-2009, 12:41 PM
trading a first round building block pick for a guy headed towards the downside of his career (who has battled injuries too much btw). raiders are such a well run team.

Geo
09-06-2009, 12:43 PM
If I was Seymour, I would be pissed.
I wouldn't be surprised if he completely sleepwalks his time through Oakland.

JFLO
09-06-2009, 12:50 PM
Seymour wasn't having any problems in New England or with team management was he?

Bigburt63
09-06-2009, 12:52 PM
I think Thomas can work as a DE in a 4-3. He's awfully versatile.

Bellichick is a 3-4 guy at heart. I see the 4-3 hybrid looks as strictly a situational front he'll use to maximize the productivity of his current personnel while he overhauls his defense with youth.

I think you're right, the 3-4 is more or less the base defense still. The 4-3 (and other 4 man front looks) are situational, and a way to transition some of the younger players in (Brace, Crable, Guyton, etc.). When they drafted Brace, they said that he would see time at 3-4 DE, not just at the nose.

Also, Green was the starter when Seymour was out with any of his injuries. Still a drop off in talent/production, but it's not like a scrub is taking his place.

Matthew Jones
09-06-2009, 01:00 PM
Steal by the Patriots. Seymour isn't the same player he used to be, and the Patriots have depth at DE.

Now they get rid of him for what will probably be a top 10 pick. He has 2 years left max of productive football. This was another Bellichick swindle.

Plus they have Ron Brace who they can sub in at DE. If ppl haven't noticed, Ty Warren has been their best DE for quite some time now.

Good move by the Pats, desperate move by the Raiders.

Seymour was actually better than Warren last year - he was our main source of a pass rush, which is sad because he's a 5-technique 3-4 end on the Patriots. And look at guys like Aaron Smith who still bookend lines into their mid-30s. Ron Brace is a 340 pound nose tackle who just ran a 5.4 and didn't show any semblance of pass rushing ability at Boston College last year. He's not going to replace Seymour for 8.5 sacks.

That said, I am happy about getting a first-round pick and I think New England can use it to get a nice defender. I like this move if the team goes to a 4-3 defense, because I think they could have a nice line (from left to right, Green, Warren, Wilfork, Burgess) and because of the value. However, it doesn't make sense to take one of the team's top defenders and trade him away when this is a pretty old team that's made to win now, not three years from now. The Patriots defense has failed them in recent years and without Seymour it's hard to get behind this team as a champion (in my opinion.) Granted, they're still one of the 2-3 best teams in the league, I'm just not sure I'd put them at #1.

bigbluedefense
09-06-2009, 01:14 PM
Seymour was actually better than Warren last year - he was our main source of a pass rush, which is sad because he's a 5-technique 3-4 end on the Patriots. And look at guys like Aaron Smith who still bookend lines into their mid-30s. Ron Brace is a 340 pound nose tackle who just ran a 5.4 and didn't show any semblance of pass rushing ability at Boston College last year. He's not going to replace Seymour for 8.5 sacks.

That said, I am happy about getting a first-round pick and I think New England can use it to get a nice defender. I like this move if the team goes to a 4-3 defense, because I think they could have a nice line (from left to right, Green, Warren, Wilfork, Burgess) and because of the value. However, it doesn't make sense to take one of the team's top defenders and trade him away when this is a pretty old team that's made to win now, not three years from now. The Patriots defense has failed them in recent years and without Seymour it's hard to get behind this team as a champion (in my opinion.) Granted, they're still one of the 2-3 best teams in the league, I'm just not sure I'd put them at #1.

Brace would be used in big packages, to add more muscle against the run.

And while he wouldn't add the same pass rush, don't underestimate his potential as a space filler so those LBs can get in that backfield. Bill's 3-4 is much more of a 2 gap scheme than some of the 3-4 looks we see with other teams.

I actually like Jarvis Green a lot. I think he is underrated as a 3-4 End.

I don't see Seymour getting another 8.5 sacks. He did it on a team with a putrid pass rush. Somebody had to get sacks. Its like a stat compiler in basketball on a bad team. Somebody has to put up 20 a game.

TACKLE
09-06-2009, 01:22 PM
I understand the move. He had one year left on his deal and he would demanding a big contract next year. The Patriots do a very good job and getting rid of guys just at the right time. They stilll have Warren and Green and they've been playing Ron Brace at some 5-tech during camp.

For the Raiders, I also like the move. Although Seymour is a prototype 3-4 DE, he can still be a very effective 4-3 DT. He's strong, he can take on double teams and he can rush the passer. He is still one of the premier defensive lineman in the game and the Raiders D-Line definitely needed a boost. Seymour also bring the right attitude from a winning culture in New England to a team that really needs it. I still say that I think Oakland will be a 7-9/8-8 team this year and with all their young talent I think they may be even better next year.

Babylon
09-06-2009, 01:22 PM
You dont trade a Richard Seymour for a draft pick two years down the road and make yourself a better team. The defense hasnt been championship caliber for over a year now and it just got worse.

AntoinCD
09-06-2009, 01:23 PM
Just reading through a lot of comments, especially by Patriots fans. Personally, I'm disappointed Seymour's gone but this was a fantastic move. First of all he wasn't going to be resigned. Secondly, recently he has been injury prone. Thirdly, they got a first round pick for soon to be 30 DE/DT for a 2011 first round pick.

Now obviously it is extremely difficult to predict much especially two years down the line so if you average it out and say it is the 16th pick that is still awesome value. Not to mention the Patriots have 3 second round picks next year. For a team that people were criticising by saying they were getting old, having 11 1st or 2nd round picks in three years can chanmge that.

As for this year, I think there will be a lot more 4 man fronts with AD playing as a SAM backer. The other thing that has to be mentioned is, asuming of course that Brady's play is an upgrade this year over Cassell, then the Pats will be able to win most games with offense. Now obviously this will not always be the case but the defense should still be better with the uogrades this offseason than last year.

bigbluedefense
09-06-2009, 01:30 PM
The Pats defense is better this year period. They are still dominant up front, Warren, Wilfork, Brace, Green, and a mixture of different rushbacker/ends they can throw at you makes their front versatile and stoute.

They got younger in the LB core, they got some young bodies in the secondary. They're more athletic now than they were 2 years ago.

Let's face it, most of their defense the past 2 years were name recognition. But they weren't good players anymore. Only the dline was stoute the past 2 years.

Now in one offseason, they lose Harrison, Bruschi, Vrabel and Seymour. They replace them with younger faster guys.

I think NE's defense is better this year than the past 2 years. Its just hard for fans like us to cope with the loss of a big name, but just bc you lose name guys doesn't mean you get worse.

diabsoule
09-06-2009, 01:34 PM
Al Davis should be stopped from making any trades. This is out of hand.

TitanHope
09-06-2009, 01:45 PM
I wouldn't be surprised if he completely sleepwalks his time through Oakland.

It's a contract year, though. He'll play well if he wants someone else besides Oakland to go after him in FA. This could backfire huge on the Raiders if they don't re-sign him.

I'd doubt this move if the Pats didn't have Jarvis Green backing them up. He could start for other 3-4 teams, but has been stuck behind Seymour and Warren his whole career.

Whistler6
09-06-2009, 01:48 PM
If it were the MLB, I'd say worth taking a shot for the Raiders. But a top 10 draft pick for a pro bowler who *will not* resign with the fuggly Raiders was all around stupid..

He gives them maybe 0.5 more wins this year?

M.O.T.H.
09-06-2009, 01:52 PM
Honestly, the first thing that came to mind was, what the hell is wrong w/ Seymour? The Pats always seem to be a step ahead of everyone, they may know something the Raiders do not.

Or maybe they just saw a chance to benefit from a guy they didnt plan on re-signing. Whatever the case is, I still wouldnt trade a 1st round pick for him. Especially if he didnt agree to a contract extension prior to being traded.

TACKLE
09-06-2009, 01:56 PM
The Raiders should go sign Derrick Brooks so they can have him at WLB beside Morrison and Howard behind to talented DT's in Seymour and Kelly.

Splat
09-06-2009, 01:58 PM
Sure didn't see this coming.

P-L
09-06-2009, 02:04 PM
This really surprised me, but the more I think about it the more I understand it.

thenewfeature06
09-06-2009, 02:06 PM
Maybe if we were in a positon to win alot of football games i can understand this..

RaiderNation
09-06-2009, 02:08 PM
Raiders recieve: DE/DT Richard Seymour, 2010 3rd round and 2011 5th round
Patriots recieve: DE/OLB Derrick Burgess, 2011 1st round

Thats pretty much howthe deal was, since Burgess was only traded a month ago. Which would you rather have?

RaiderNation
09-06-2009, 02:10 PM
The Raiders should go sign Derrick Brooks so they can have him at WLB beside Morrison and Howard behind to talented DT's in Seymour and Kelly.

Howard is our WLB. What we really need is a SLB. Howard and Morrison are more of coverage LBs than run stopping LBs. If we had a stud SLB our defence could be nasty

Nalej
09-06-2009, 02:28 PM
My first reaction was WTF?!?!?!?!
Now that I think about it- Seymour woulda walked after this year
I don't understand why it's a 2011 pick though- do the Raiders have high hopes???
I hate to have such a great player leave but I guess it's part of the business.
The only way I'll feel absolutely okay with this is that we now resign Wilfork and Mankins

Matthew Jones
09-06-2009, 02:31 PM
This is almost certainly going to be a 4-3 defensive front this year, for those who are wondering. Plus, the problem at LB is that the team doesn't really have a lot of talent. Aside from Mayo (who's very good, although he's not really a game-changing player yet - 0 sacks and 0 INTs last year) and Thomas (who's good, but old and injury-prone), there aren't any guys that should really be starting in the NFL. Pierre Woods and Gary Guyton are okay, same with TBC, but these should be backups on a good team, not starters on a team trying to win the Super Bowl.

AntoinCD
09-06-2009, 02:33 PM
Raiders recieve: DE/DT Richard Seymour, 2010 3rd round and 2011 5th round
Patriots recieve: DE/OLB Derrick Burgess, 2011 1st round

Thats pretty much howthe deal was, since Burgess was only traded a month ago. Which would you rather have?

Raiders recieve: DE/DT Richard Seymour, 2010 3rd round and 2011 5th round-Al Davis drafting
Patriots recieve: DE/OLB Derrick Burgess, 2011 1st round-Not Al Davis drafting

Yep I know which one I would prefer

bigbluedefense
09-06-2009, 02:35 PM
What about the guy from Michigan that was drafted 2 years ago? I forgot his name, but he was a standup pass rusher for them and got put on IR his rookie year.

Call me crazy, but I still like this team as a 3-4 front.

As a 4-3, this team is desperately needs a WILL and true 4-3 Ends. In a 3-4, I like their front 7 much more.

Mr.Regular
09-06-2009, 02:36 PM
What about the guy from Michigan that was drafted 2 years ago? I forgot his name, but he was a standup pass rusher for them and got put on IR his rookie year.

Call me crazy, but I still like this team as a 3-4 front.

As a 4-3, this team is desperately needs a WILL and true 4-3 Ends. In a 3-4, I like their front 7 much more.
Shawn Crable? IR again this year.

M.O.T.H.
09-06-2009, 02:37 PM
Shawn Crable? He's out for the year again, I believe.

bigbluedefense
09-06-2009, 02:39 PM
Shawn Crable? IR again this year.

Yeah, Crable.

Ouch.


I guess his career is done.

I still like this defense. I think they have a talented young developing secondary in Butler, Wheatley, Merriweather and Chung.

I like their dline of Green, Warren, and Wilfork/Brace.

They have a stoute presence inside with Mayo. They can always move Thomas back inside, but he's still a solid SAMbacker in the BP 3-4.

They just desperately need a pass rushing presence. I know thats what they got Burgess for, but I don't see it with him.

I like this defense. It won't be dominant this year, but give these guys another year, and I think they'll be in the right position to be dominant again. They're just missing a young up and coming pass rusher.

Foosballphan
09-06-2009, 02:40 PM
Good luck in purgatory R. Seymour, at least you only have one year on your contract left.

Nalej
09-06-2009, 02:40 PM
wtf @ Crable... smh

AntoinCD
09-06-2009, 02:42 PM
I was really disappointed Crable was IRd again. When he was taken of the PUP in training camp I was really looking forward to seeing him. I think he only played one preseason game last year and had a sack. But he looks like he could go down the same route as Chad Jackson did and get cut in a year or two.

Splat
09-06-2009, 02:46 PM
The more I think about this move the more I don't like it for the Raiders a first round pick for a 30 year old DE/DT that has only played a full 16 game season twice and 9 years?

awfullyquiet
09-06-2009, 02:47 PM
i'm not surprised.

DeepThreat
09-06-2009, 03:28 PM
I don't know why people are doubting the Pats' ability to run a 3-4. They still have a great 3-4 end and nose in Warren and Wilfork. Neither of them would be as good in a 4-3. Then Jarvis Green is no slouch in the 5 position. And they have Brace as a backup.

Adalius Thomas is perfect for the 3-4 with all of his versatility. Burgess should be a good OLB, and Mayo is great on the inside.

I like them a lot more in a 3-4 actually. Their DL is much better suited for it, and so is Thomas.

CC.SD
09-06-2009, 03:32 PM
So who is starting next to Mayo now anyway?

Basileus777
09-06-2009, 03:44 PM
You dont trade a Richard Seymour for a draft pick two years down the road and make yourself a better team. The defense hasnt been championship caliber for over a year now and it just got worse.

Richard Seymour isn't an impact player, he hasn't been for years. If you can get a first round pick for a declining 30 year old player who plays a position your team is very deep at and will be gone in a year, you do it.

CC.SD
09-06-2009, 03:47 PM
Richard Seymour isn't an impact player, he hasn't been for years. If you can get a first round pick for a declining 30 year old player who plays a position your team is very deep at and will be gone in a year, you do it.

I definitely think he can make an impact on the Raiders' front, he is on a whole other talent level than what they currently have at the position. If he's into it, that is, plus healthy. But Seymour is definitely still a very good football player. Still, not worth a first given age and other factors.

Honestly I feel like the Pats trading with the Raiders so often is like taking candy from a baby. Can Al get on the phone with other GMs please?

Basileus777
09-06-2009, 03:49 PM
If it were the MLB, I'd say worth taking a shot for the Raiders. But a top 10 draft pick for a pro bowler who *will not* resign with the fuggly Raiders was all around stupid..

He gives them maybe 0.5 more wins this year?

Seymour has always struck me as a guy that just wants to get paid. If Oakland is willing to pay him, I think they can keep him.

Stash
09-06-2009, 03:52 PM
Not a big fan of this move. We definitely needed DL help, but I'm not sure Seymour is the right fit. We need a run stuffing DT and a pass rushing DE, not a pass rushing DT or a run stuffing DE (in other words, pretty similar skillset to Kelly). I also don't like giving up a 1st rounder for someone who is A) in a contract year and B) made his name in a 3-4 because you don't know if he will be the same impact player in a 4-3. I also hate trading with the Pats, things just seem to go their way.

Thumper
09-06-2009, 03:54 PM
So who is starting next to Mayo now anyway?

I think it is Gary Guyton who is starting there.

But I may be wrong, the might be moving Adalius Thomas inside and letting Burgess and Pierre Woods start on the outside.

TACKLE
09-06-2009, 03:57 PM
Richard Seymour isn't an impact player, he hasn't been for years. If you can get a first round pick for a declining 30 year old player who plays a position your team is very deep at and will be gone in a year, you do it.

What are you talking about? You clearly don't watch D-Lineman enough.

AntoinCD
09-06-2009, 03:58 PM
I think it is Gary Guyton who is starting there.

But I may be wrong, the might be moving Adalius Thomas inside and letting Burgess and Pierre Woods start on the outside.

Yea it is Gary Guyton who will be starting beside Mayo. Improved a lot last year but could be upgraded, although I would keep Thomas outside for the majority of the time.

Bigburt63
09-06-2009, 04:00 PM
So who is starting next to Mayo now anyway?

Guyton and Mayo inside, with Thomas and Banta-Cain/Burgess/Pierre Woods on the outside.

CC.SD
09-06-2009, 04:01 PM
Yea it is Gary Guyton who will be starting beside Mayo. Improved a lot last year but could be upgraded, although I would keep Thomas outside for the majority of the time.

I love Thomas on the outside but I have to admit Guyton is a mystery to me...if there's a respectable OLB on the roster, wouldn't be surprised to see the Pats move AT inside.

Bigburt63
09-06-2009, 04:05 PM
Richard Seymour isn't an impact player, he hasn't been for years. If you can get a first round pick for a declining 30 year old player who plays a position your team is very deep at and will be gone in a year, you do it.

Make no mistake, Seymour is a very good DL. DE in the 3-4 is not really a position that jumps out with impact plays even though a great DE makes impact plays. In other words, alot of what Seymour does great is overlooked. He commands double teams, can stuff the run and get to the passer.

Not a big fan of this move. We definitely needed DL help, but I'm not sure Seymour is the right fit. We need a run stuffing DT and a pass rushing DE, not a pass rushing DT or a run stuffing DE (in other words, pretty similar skillset to Kelly). I also don't like giving up a 1st rounder for someone who is A) in a contract year and B) made his name in a 3-4 because you don't know if he will be the same impact player in a 4-3. I also hate trading with the Pats, things just seem to go their way.

Seymour played in a 4-3 his first year (maybe 2, not sure) in NE. He was still very effective at that position. The play that I remember him the most from is the snow bowl against, ironically, the raiders on the 4th and 1, he shot through the guards legs and made the stop in the backfield.

Basileus777
09-06-2009, 04:08 PM
What are you talking about? You clearly don't watch D-Lineman enough.

Don't look at his number of sacks. He's still a good player, but he's isn't close to being the force he was 4 or 5 years ago. With the Pats he was approaching two-down player status. Seymour isn't in the tiers of players that is worth a first round pick.

BlindSite
09-06-2009, 05:09 PM
I just feel really sorry for seymour. From another chance to win a ring to being in oakland... That must really, really, really, really hurt.

thetedginnshow
09-06-2009, 05:20 PM
Well in the end this is great for the Pats, but at least for this year, their defense will be very mediocre.

JETS TO THE PLAYOFFS

Rosebud
09-06-2009, 05:54 PM
And this is why the patriots have remained so competitive for so long. Losing Seymour hurts, but they're in a position where they can still be viable SB contenders even after this lose while securing more high caliber young talent a little down the road. All while avoiding a difficult contract situation/

PACKmanN
09-06-2009, 06:01 PM
Well in the end this is great for the Pats, but at least for this year, their defense will be very mediocre.

JETS TO THE PLAYOFFS

lol @ Jets to the Playoffs.

I understand the Pats on this, they would rather pay their NT big money.

scottyboy
09-06-2009, 06:01 PM
Well in the end this is great for the Pats, but at least for this year, their defense will be very mediocre.

JETS TO THE PLAYOFFS

sign Bernard Pollard and you're all set.

that and start Westerman and Renkart.

thetedginnshow
09-06-2009, 06:12 PM
Westerman should start, actually.

jballa838
09-06-2009, 06:29 PM
And with the first overall pick in the 2011 NFL Draft, the New England Patriots select: Julio Jones, WR Alabama.

That just made me sick to my stomach. thanks for the Parity Oakland....

Donno
09-06-2009, 06:35 PM
Are they planning on putting him at DT or DE?

bernbabybern820
09-06-2009, 06:46 PM
He will be starting at right defensive end who will occasionally slide in a DT (probably in obvious passing downs with Trevor Scott coming in at DE).

If we can't stop the run with 3 DTs i dont think we ever will.

Whistler6
09-06-2009, 07:00 PM
As long as the Raid-ahs have Tom Cable coaching, Al Davis drafting and making every other decision...They should feel good about their chances

FUNBUNCHER
09-06-2009, 07:01 PM
Seymour is still a very good player, but IMO it's still a poor deal for Oakland.

Hell, the Skins signing Haynesworth to a contact with $ 40 mil guaranteed was a bad deal.

The Unseen
09-06-2009, 07:11 PM
I just saw this.

what the ****

Shiver
09-06-2009, 07:18 PM
I will play Devil's advocate and say this helps the Raiders a lot. You do not need too much to do well in the AFC West. They are now a better team than the Broncos and Chiefs (then again I thought they were already, but now more so). What I love about this is Seymour will have to play his butt off since he is in a contract year and this is his last shot at a big paycheck. If he can solidify the run defense, they have the defensive backs to have a well rounded defense. Jamarcus has looked better and that rushing attack with a healthy McFadden would terrify me as a defensive coordinator. I think they will do better than people think.

Bucs_Rule
09-06-2009, 07:28 PM
Seymour has always struck me as a guy that just wants to get paid. If Oakland is willing to pay him, I think they can keep him.

Al Davis has shown if he really wants you he will grossly overpay you.

Splat
09-06-2009, 07:37 PM
I will play Devil's advocate and say this helps the Raiders a lot. You do not need too much to do well in the AFC West. They are now a better team than the Broncos and Chiefs (then again I thought they were already, but now more so).

I'm with you 100% on how bad the Div is and SD is a lock to win it but I would like to hear your thoughts on how the Raiders are better then Denver and the Chiefs?

Shiver
09-06-2009, 07:51 PM
Chiefs

The O-Line is atrocious and it is made worse by the fact that they have a QB that accumulates sacks. Cassel is already hurt and he will get pummeled week in and out. The running game is not there to take any pressure off and teams will double Bowe 100% of the time and there is not one legitimate NFL WR/TE that can make a play.

The defense, which is historically bad last year, is switching to a new scheme that I do not think they have the pieces to make it work. I have yet to see Dorsey play, supposedly he has played but I haven't noticed. I guess the absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence I suppose. And don't even get me started on that linebacking corp. Hali at 3-4 OLB is too slow, Demorrio Williams couldn't shed a block for his life, and neither could Derrick Johnson for that matter.

Broncos

McDaniels is over his head. I know it, you know it, everyone knows it. His offense will try and dink and dunk its way too success. But teams will catch on and Kyle Orton will not be able to stretch the field to open up those quick passes, and I really did not like Knowshon Moreno coming out.

They may have the worst defense in the league, the only players that have that are worth anything are over the hill Champ Bailey and Brian Dawkins. They will get by on name recognition more than what they do on the field. Can you name a Broncos' D-Lineman? You cannot say their names without laughing.

Splat
09-06-2009, 08:06 PM
Chiefs
The O-Line is atrocious and it is made worse by the fact that they have a QB that accumulates sacks. Cassel is already hurt and he will get pummeled week in and out. The running game is not there to take any pressure off and teams will double Bowe 100% of the time and there is not one legitimate NFL WR/TE that can make a play.

The defense, which is historically bad last year, is switching to a new scheme that I do not think they have the pieces to make it work. I have yet to see Dorsey play, supposedly he has played but I haven't noticed. I guess the absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence I suppose. And don't even get me started on that linebacking corp. Hali at 3-4 OLB is too slow, Demorrio Williams couldn't shed a block for his life, and neither could Derrick Johnson for that matter.


The O I pretty much agree with every thing you said but you could not be more wrong about the D.

The Chiefs have yet to give up more then 17 points its pre season but still and the Chiefs LB's have played far and away better then you claim.

The Chiefs coaching staff have been very high on Hali and he has looked great in pre season and Vrabel has shown he still has some left in the tank.

The star of camp and pre season has also been a LB little known SP teams ace Corey Mays who has worked his way in to the starting line up.

I'm in no way saying the Chiefs will have a top ten 10 but I think their D is going to surprise alot of people.

Shiver
09-06-2009, 08:29 PM
We will see. Don't forget I live in KC, I see a lot of the Chiefs.

Shiver
09-06-2009, 08:32 PM
I think the player to look out for is Darren McFadden. People have forgotten just how great he was. He was playing on two turf toes (a devasting injury for a RB) and still averaged 4.4 ypc. He might out-Chris Johnson Chris Johnson this year.

RaiderNation
09-06-2009, 09:01 PM
McFadden(if healthy) should get a ton of touches this year. At both RB and WR. Cable has said the offence played better every time McFadden was in the game last year(and he was hurt for most the year). I expect close to 1,000 yards, and a good amount of catches. Bush and Fargas will also run the ball a good amount of times and will probably combine for around 700 yards

wogitalia
09-06-2009, 09:02 PM
I think the player to look out for is Darren McFadden. People have forgotten just how great he was. He was playing on two turf toes (a devasting injury for a RB) and still averaged 4.4 ypc. He might out-Chris Johnson Chris Johnson this year.

Yeah but its going to be really tough on him. Has genuine injury concerns, is suspect between the tackles and has a pretty awful support cast. I have watched AD try his ass off behind a suspect line without anything else and to me AD is a better build to take the punishment and our line was way better than Oakland's, our QB was better and our WR were/are better and when a Minny fan can say that, you know your line is weak, your QB is awful and your receivers should not be on an NFL roster.

Oakland have so much "potential" but no reality right now, their OL is the strength outside the RBs and even the RBs are based on potential and that OL should never be a strength, ever.

The AFC is just ridiculously weak, I personally think Oakland are the worst team in the division, Denver have a fantastic OL that will actually let them do things on offense, Moreno just needs to stay healthly and get 4ypc and he is an upgrade for them and all they need. Orton is a solid fit, remember he has been throwing to the worst WR group in the league behind a pretty poor line.

Chiefs were the best awful team in the league last year, they should be better at pretty much everything but TE on offense and their defense has looked great so far though looking on paper basically none of their guys should fit that scheme.

All I know is that if the AFC West isn't the worst division in football I would be shocked, that is about the only thing I predict this offseason.

brat316
09-06-2009, 09:10 PM
Yeah all Oakland has is potential well except for the CB spot.

cvv84
09-06-2009, 10:35 PM
When I first heard of the trade this morning I was pretty shocked. Seymour was one of those guys who you couldn't imagine seeing on another team. But in reality its a good trade for both teams, but slightly favors the Patriots.

Seymour fills a big hole on the defense in Oakland but he's been having nagging injuries over the past few season and at 30 years old the Raiders will need to re-sign him and have him to be effective for another 3-4 years to compensate for the loss of a 1st round pick.

If the Raiders really are trying to build a 3-4 defense though they are crazy. They're offense is a complete mess and the change in personal on the defensive side of the ball can't be done all in one year. Add in the high investments of JaMarcus Russell, Darren McFadden, and Darrius Heyward-Bey you'd think that the Raiders would do everything they can to keep building their offense.

RaiderNation
09-06-2009, 11:13 PM
We arnt trying to go 3-4. Al's D is 4-3 Man up. Seymour will play RDE most of the time, but on passing downs he will move inside with Kelly/Warren and allow Tevor Scott to do what he does best.

I agree that if Seymour isnt signed to a deal this season or next season we will probably get the bad end of the deal. One way or the other, we got better on D

OaklandRaider56
09-06-2009, 11:22 PM
I'd like this trade if 1st round draft picks didn't make me horny.

AJHawk50
09-07-2009, 12:26 AM
I think this is a good trade for the RAIDERS. They can't afford to keep paying top 10 draft picks money every year, so why not trade the first round pick and add a solid veteran who you know can pick up some of the slack. And keep salary cap room with more options.

cvv84
09-07-2009, 12:33 AM
I think this is a good trade for the RAIDERS. They can't afford to keep paying top 10 draft picks money every year, so why not trade the first round pick and add a solid veteran who you know can pick up some of the slack. And keep salary cap room with more options.

You do know that Seymour is a free agent after this season right??

locseti
09-07-2009, 01:42 AM
Anyone who doesn't think this is a great move by the raiders is delusional. Look at our draft history, there's certainly no gurantee that the 2011 pick would have fetched a franchise player, in fact it's extremely unlikely. At least we get a proven player who is going to help fix the most glaring team weakness. And ya, I wouldn't be worried about the patriots, they're going to be just fine.

OzTitan
09-07-2009, 04:04 AM
Brady will be 34 by this pick, or a few months from it.

So who's the top QB prospect for 2011? Clausen? Damn Patriots :P

Shane P. Hallam
09-07-2009, 09:07 AM
They draft Clausen and bring back Charlie Weis after he gets fired :P

Splat
09-07-2009, 09:29 AM
What if Richard Seymour doesn't show in Oakland? (http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2009/09/07/what-is-richard-seymour-doesnt-show-in-oakland/)

"It's established, via Peter King of SI.com, that former Patriots defensive lineman Richard Seymour is "angry (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2009/writers/peter_king/09/06/mmqb/1.html)" about the trade that sent him into football's literal and figurative Black Hole.

A good friend of Seymour's told King on Sunday, "I would not be surprised if he doesn't report."

Smooth Criminal
09-07-2009, 09:32 AM
If he doesn't show and the trade gets cancled, I can't imagine him being very happy when he gets back to NE. That could be a worst case scenario for the pats. Seymour likely wouldn't start and they'd get nothing in return for him.

I'm willing to bet he shows up, and gets massivly rewarded by Al Davis.

CC.SD
09-07-2009, 12:06 PM
If Seymour is one and done with the Raiders, it will probably be Al's biggest fuckup yet.

locseti
09-07-2009, 02:10 PM
Right now it looks like he might not even show, which would be terrible for the Patriots, and no hurt to the Raiders. If he doesn't report, the trade will be called off and the Patriots will be stuck dealing with him. I think he will come to his senses and show up and when he does, Al will pay him. Nnamdi couldn't turn down that contract and neither will Seymour, especially knowing he probably won't get paid like that elsewhere.

vikes_28
09-07-2009, 02:25 PM
Good move for the Pats. As always, the Raiders will end up with a top 10 pick. And the Pats can draft a replacement for Brady.

RaiderNation
09-07-2009, 02:26 PM
Looks like a contract hasnt been agreed to yet. Many say its close and once its completed Seymour will fly to Oakland. I hope the deal gets done, it will probably be a 4 or 5 year deal

Stash
09-07-2009, 02:44 PM
Looks like a contract hasnt been agreed to yet. Many say its close and once its completed Seymour will fly to Oakland. I hope the deal gets done, it will probably be a 4 or 5 year deal
I just hope AL backloads it so he can get out of it if need be.

Young Legend
09-07-2009, 02:48 PM
Seymour wasn't gonna come with out a new contract just like with Hall trade for him and make sure you get a contract in place before he flys out,

RaiderNation
09-07-2009, 03:04 PM
I just hope AL backloads it so he can get out of it if need be.

From what Ive heard most will be paid in the first few years of the contract.

DeCrunkMAn
09-07-2009, 04:57 PM
wow what a fantastic trade for both teams! I think its exactly what both teams needed!

Splat
09-07-2009, 04:59 PM
wow what a fantastic trade for the Pats!

Fixed that for you. :)

DeCrunkMAn
09-07-2009, 05:21 PM
Fixed that for you. :)

Well I think Seymour and ASomugha will be great leaders for that young defense.

RaiderNation
09-07-2009, 05:42 PM
I dont get how you guys say this isnt a good trade for the raiders. We are a young team that has improved alot over the last 2 or 3 seasons. We are close to being able to compete(look at last years games, we were competitive in almost every game). Adding Seymour gives us a pro bowl DE that is great against the run(our biggest weakness), and can also get to the QB. Adding Seymour will free up Kelly and Ellis. Ellis nows gets to play LDE and play against RT who usually are good run blockers but only decent pass blockers.

Alright yes we gave up a 1st round pick, but thats 2 years from now. If everything works out, by that time we should start being a good team. Russell will be 25 or 26 and thats when a QB starts to show if he is good or not, DMC and Bush will both be young still, we have a bunch of young talented WRs that need game expierence, the oline isnt great, but if the right peices are added(C,RG) it can be good. I really think if Seymour gets the new contract, and he will play good. He doesnt seem like a me type of player. He wants the money he deserves and Al will give him it

RaiderNation
09-07-2009, 05:43 PM
http://www.sbreport.net/raider_news/008/1723.html

" Real quickly about the Richard Seymour issue. We have attempted to make a deal. There are some issues still between him and the Patriots that are being worked out. Hoping that will be resolved as quickly as possible. We know that the player wants to be here, but we have no control really over those issues. That’s really all I’m going to talk about it for now."Tom Cable

Bigburt63
09-07-2009, 05:49 PM
2 things. Are the raiders planning on using Seymour at DE in the 4-3 and not at DT? Also, I read that the patriots denied any issues on their part with the deal. It was on the team website.

RaiderNation
09-07-2009, 06:00 PM
1 Both. RDE on 1st down/running downs. UT in passing downs(next to Kelly).

2 Just read some new news on the deal....

http://www.profootballcentral.com/2009/09/07/seymour-expected-to-arrive-in-oakland-on-tuesday/

Newly acquired defensive end Richard Seymour is expected to report to the Oakland Raiders and take his physical on Tuesday, according to several sources. Seymour, did not report today, due to wanting to spend the Labor Day holiday with his family before joining his new team.

Probably has to think about selling his house, buy a house, new schools all that stuff.

sweetness34
09-07-2009, 06:06 PM
I dont get how you guys say this isnt a good trade for the raiders. We are a young team that has improved alot over the last 2 or 3 seasons. We are close to being able to compete(look at last years games, we were competitive in almost every game). Adding Seymour gives us a pro bowl DE that is great against the run(our biggest weakness), and can also get to the QB. Adding Seymour will free up Kelly and Ellis. Ellis nows gets to play LDE and play against RT who usually are good run blockers but only decent pass blockers.

Alright yes we gave up a 1st round pick, but thats 2 years from now. If everything works out, by that time we should start being a good team. Russell will be 25 or 26 and thats when a QB starts to show if he is good or not, DMC and Bush will both be young still, we have a bunch of young talented WRs that need game expierence, the oline isnt great, but if the right peices are added(C,RG) it can be good. I really think if Seymour gets the new contract, and he will play good. He doesnt seem like a me type of player. He wants the money he deserves and Al will give him it

He's in the last year of his contract. It's a bad deal if you don't re-sign him. Giving up a first round pick for a one year rental would be a very bad move. If you guys can re-sign him to multi-year deal then I would agree that it is a good move because he is still a damn good player.

RaiderNation
09-07-2009, 06:09 PM
He's in the last year of his contract. It's a bad deal if you don't re-sign him. Giving up a first round pick for a one year rental would be a very bad move. If you guys can re-sign him to multi-year deal then I would agree that it is a good move because he is still a damn good player.

I doubt he comes to Oakland if he doesnt get a new deal. He would rather just stay in NE for a year. But almost every report says Al is talking to his agent and a deal should get done. But I do agree, if he isnt signed to a 4-5 year deal you guys would rape us in this trade

Geo
09-07-2009, 06:11 PM
I expect a huge money deal/extension to get done between Seymour and the Raiders, probably before the start of this season.

Splat
09-07-2009, 07:43 PM
I think its a bad move for the Raiders for a few reasons.

1. First round pick for a player getting ready to hit 30.

2. They will more than likely over pay him in a new deal.

3. He has missed games in six out of eight seasons.

4. Does he fit the system and or does he even want to be there?

5. Star players from NE have been known to have a drop off in play after leaving.

I don't think it is a completely terrible move by the Raiders he can still be a solid player but I feel NE got the better end of the deal.

Nalej
09-07-2009, 08:03 PM
I think its a bad move for the Raiders for a few reasons.

1. First round pick for a player getting ready to hit 30.

2. They will more than likely over pay him in a new deal.

3. He has missed games in six out of eight seasons.

4. Does he fit the system and or does he even want to be there?

5. Star players from NE have been known to have a drop off in play after leaving.

I don't think it is a completely terrible move by the Raiders he can still be a solid player but I feel NE got the better end of the deal.

3 and 5 stand out the most out of those. We'll see, I guess.

RaiderNation
09-07-2009, 08:41 PM
According to ProFootballFocus.com, Richard Semour is the 2nd best 3-4 DE, #5 3-4 DE against the run and #2 3-4DE against the pass

http://www.profootballfocus.com/by_position.php?tab=by_position&season=2008&pos=DE4&stype=r&runpass=&teamid=-1&numgames=1

sweetness34
09-07-2009, 08:42 PM
I doubt he comes to Oakland if he doesnt get a new deal. He would rather just stay in NE for a year. But almost every report says Al is talking to his agent and a deal should get done. But I do agree, if he isnt signed to a 4-5 year deal you guys would rape us in this trade

You are talking about the most dysfunctional franchise in professional sports, you doubt he would come to Oakland if he didn't get a new deal? Rationality and Al Davis do not belong in the same sentence.

I would not be at all surprised if Seymour doesn't get a long term deal out of this trade and until it happens, it was not a good trade for Oakland IMO.

bored of education
09-07-2009, 09:25 PM
Someone earlier said that the Pats D has improved with the Gary Guyton's, Jonathan Wilhite's they have drafted in the last 3 years. They lost Vrable, Seymour, Ellis, Bruschi, Harrison. 6 starters. I don't care if you are the Lions and lose 6 starters no matter who they are. You get worse. Maybe Adalius Thomas will play a full year? Maybe Merriwether makes the jump to being decent. Many more maybes. They have Ty Warren, Wilfork and Mayo. Best of luck! I don't see how it doesn't take at least two years before the Patriots D is decent. I understand the move long term. But the Patriots don't have a long term window. Brady is 32 and coming of a horrid injury, Matt Light the left tackle is ******** the bed the last two years. For them to win, I say 2 year window.

RaiderNation
09-07-2009, 09:33 PM
Also gotta add Moss is 32 also...

Matthew Jones
09-07-2009, 09:42 PM
Someone earlier said that the Pats D has improved with the Gary Guyton's, Jonathan Wilhite's they have drafted in the last 3 years. They lost Vrable, Seymour, Ellis, Bruschi, Harrison. 6 starters. I don't care if you are the Lions and lose 6 starters no matter who they are. You get worse. Maybe Adalius Thomas will play a full year? Maybe Merriwether makes the jump to being decent. Many more maybes. They have Ty Warren, Wilfork and Mayo. Best of luck! I don't see how it doesn't take at least two years before the Patriots D is decent. I understand the move long term. But the Patriots don't have a long term window. Brady is 32 and coming of a horrid injury, Matt Light the left tackle is ******** the bed the last two years. For them to win, I say 2 year window.

Brandon M. is more than decent, he's actually probably the best player in the secondary. He made a lot of plays last year. Pretty good in coverage and a nice hitter. I think the team will be top-15 in defense, maybe top-10 because they won't be on the field much with that offense. They're alright.

OzTitan
09-08-2009, 03:34 AM
I don't know if reaching 30 is that big a deal for a DE like Seymour. The bigger guys who seem to rely on good technique (Kevin Carter, Holliday as two examples) seem to remain effective until a much older age.

While 30 does seem to be a legitimate turning point for the worse for some positions, I'm not sure physical DE's with excellent technique skills is one of them. I think the loss of the youthful looking number 2 at the start of the age once a player reaches 30 tends to make it look worse than it really is.

BlindSite
09-08-2009, 06:45 AM
30 for RBs, some corners and safeties and most Linebackers is pretty much it. It's not unusual for linemen to last a bit longer.

Bigburt63
09-08-2009, 08:26 AM
To be fair, he has battled injuries throughout his career, so turning 30 is a legitimate concern.

FlyingElvis
09-08-2009, 10:29 AM
I haven't really been following what the Pats have been doing?
Why has it been so bad?

The Cassel/Vrabel trade to KC was done too quickly. The thought was the Pats were clearing cap space for a big move, yet no big move happened. So I call that one a fail, since the FO could have waited and considered more offers. There was talk of moving up for an unnamed player (Raji or Tyson were my guesses) and that may have been a possibility from Denver’s 12 pick. IMO, Trade Fail.

Then there was the draft. NE goes into the typical free fall while adding 2010 picks. No problem with the extra picks next year, and really I’m ok with the guys selected this year. The big problem lies in the players NOT drafted. With Vrabel gone, Thomas & Bruschi hitting their twilight and Woods, Alexander, Crable and Guyton all young +/- question marks in talent & experience, the Pats still watched many inside & outside LBs slide on by. There is no doubt that several LBs selected this year will be studs and NE passed on them. And yes, I realize that there is no way to be sure the Pats would have picked the right guy, but I'd rather have seen them swing and miss than not even try.

On top of all of those things we have no more Rodney Harrison to QB the DBs during the games. Then Bruschi retires and a week later Seymour gets traded. Stop and think about those 3 . . . Seymour, Bruschi, Harrison. In one offseason the Pats D lost their 3 best leaders.

I will always like the Pats chances and have a great deal of respect for the ability to plug in the next guy and make up for lost players. But, all tolled, this has been a nightmare offseason.

FlyingElvis
09-08-2009, 10:34 AM
I hope Seymour can make the best of this deal. It can be a good deal for both teams, but it has to suck for Seymour. Hopefully Al keeps the Raider way going and Richard gets way overpaid.

He is a much better player than some give him credit for here. The stats on a 5 tech are not going to look like the statline of a dominant rusher. Seymour not only commands double teams, but he still beats them regularly. He is a disruptive force and looked like he was 100% healthy last season. He should be able to give Oakland a few more years.


top ten pick... top five pick... ha.

i love how quickly everyone here forgets recent history. atlanta? arizona? i don't even want to actually have to think about why making full stop predictions about a pick that's TWO YEARS away is stupid. not even stupid, ****ing moronic.

I agree with your basic line of thought. However, as long as Al Davis is in charge of the Raiders franchise I have zero faith in their ability to rise above their current state. 24 wins over the last 6 years – um, why should we expect something else? Other teams have orchestrated major reversals in less time while the Raiders just remain stagnant. Why is it ****ing moronic to assume that, after 6 years of no improvement, we won’t see anything different? Yet it’s not ****ing moronic to assume that, after 6 years of no improvement, they will suddenly now improve? Grow the **** up. Either argument has plenty of merit if supported properly.

Thats an ignorant statement, not to say that Im surprised its coming from a Pats fan though.

Awesome. Because making a sweeping generalization about all of a team's fans isn't ignorant. :rolleyes:

Who are you kidding honestly

Right? The hypocrisy knows no bounds. Probably b/c he’s to ignorant to see his own ignorance.

P-L
09-08-2009, 11:24 AM
According to ProFootballFocus.com, Richard Semour is the 2nd best 3-4 DE, #5 3-4 DE against the run and #2 3-4DE against the pass

http://www.profootballfocus.com/by_position.php?tab=by_position&season=2008&pos=DE4&stype=r&runpass=&teamid=-1&numgames=1
Well most people have known that Ty Warren has been the Patriots' best defensive end, but I'm surprised to see Jarvis Green that high.

NIN1984
09-08-2009, 12:27 PM
The Oakland Raiders are working on a long term deal for defensive end Richard Seymour and are hoping that he accepts a new three year deal with the team. Seymour who was reportedly expected to arrive in Oakland on Tuesday is looking for “job security” on a long term deal that will make him one of the highest paid defensive ends in the league.

http://www.profootballcentral.com/2009/09/08/raiders-working-on-long-term-deal-with-seymour/

cvv84
09-08-2009, 12:40 PM
Wow only a 3 year deal? That means the 1st round pick that the Raiders traded to the Patriots will be in the league for 2 years when Seymour's contract is up. The Raiders better hope that he stays healthy and performs at a high level or this trade heavily favors the Patriots.

bigbluedefense
09-08-2009, 12:59 PM
I might be alone in this, but I stand by my statement that the Pats D will be better this year than it has been in the past 2 years.

I like their secondary, and I like their dline. Their only missing link is pass rushers at OLB, but I think Bellichick will make it work. He was always a coverage guy anyway, never really big on pressure.

And whenever he wants to bring pressure, he'll blitz DBs. Thats his MO.

He loves using 3 safeties and blitzing one along with whatever rushers are coming at the qb.

They'll be fine.

awfullyquiet
09-08-2009, 01:01 PM
Really though, betting on the raiders to be above a 16 pick is pretty good odds.

If you had to make a choice if the raiders were going to be a top 10 pick this year... chances would be with you. And that's really what it boils down to. It's not a foregone conclusion, but, it's grand possibility.

bigbluedefense
09-08-2009, 01:06 PM
The Patriots prefer 2nd round picks or late 1st round picks over early picks anyway. They have for quite some time now, which is why they love trading out of the 1st round.

I think its a smart move. The quality in the 2nd round is just as good as the 1st round these days. And they cost a hell of a lot less, plus you can trade a 1st for 2 2nd rounders, id make that trade any day.

So even if the pick does wind up being a mid 1st, the Patriots won't mind. In fact, it would probably be easier for them to trade out of the 1st round if the pick is in the middle of the 1st round opposed to a top 4 pick.

They rather stock pile 2nd round picks. I would too. Until they fix the rookie pay scale, its the smart way to build your team.

awfullyquiet
09-08-2009, 01:12 PM
They rather stock pile 2nd round picks. I would too. Until they fix the rookie pay scale, its the smart way to build your team.

Yes.

Although, contrarily, top 7 picks on qb (which most top 7 pick teams lack), are the easiest to get a legit franchise qb. i think almost 25% of qb's picked by pick 7 end up being pro bowl qbs.

bigbluedefense
09-08-2009, 01:20 PM
Yes.

Although, contrarily, top 7 picks on qb (which most top 7 pick teams lack), are the easiest to get a legit franchise qb. i think almost 25% of qb's picked by pick 7 end up being pro bowl qbs.

Thats true. Round 2 qbs seem to bust more than round 1 guys also. You figure they'd be guys who have success bc they can sit and learn without any front office pressure, and they have similar skill sets to the round 1 guys, but for some reason it just doesn't work as effectively.

Vikes99ej
09-08-2009, 01:22 PM
I wouldn't think age would matter that much for 3-4 DE or a defensive tackle. They rely on their strength, and I think many can be effective into their early to mid-30's. Unless a chronic case of injuries presents itself of course.

AntoinCD
09-08-2009, 01:34 PM
I think the fact that people are expecting the Raiders to be a bottom 5-10 team in two years is different than why a lot of teams suh as Arizona can turn it around. Firstly, many experts where predicting that Arizona would be a breakthrough team for about three years before they actually did. Secondly, teams like Atlanta where able to get a franchise QB to pull them through, along with a lot of help such as a strong running game, good offensive line etc. Thirdly,

Arizona's first round picks since 2003 with the exception of Leinart are all starting(not including Beanie yet) either for the Cardinals or another team. Most at a high or very high level.

Atlanta's first round picks since 2003 are all starting either for the Falcons or another team, most at a very high level except for Jamaal Anderson. They have also made astute trades and free agency pick ups-Tony Gonzalez and Michael Turner etc.

Miami's first round picks since 2003 with the exception of Jason Allen are all starting for the Dolphins, most at a high level and have book ended their QB with Carey and Long.

Oakland's first round picks since 2003, with the exception of Asomugha, Russell(still a possible bust), Gallery(drafted 2nd overall and is their starting LG???) and Darren McFadden(injured a lot last year so I reserve judgement) have all busted. That is with them consistently picking in the high end of the first with the exception of 2003 and 2005.

Since 2003, the Raiders' average drafting position has been 11 and that is including the fact they got to the Superbowl in 2002.

In comparison Arizona have drafted on average at pick 11 also but have a much better record through the draft in that period.

The Falcon's have drafted on average at pick 15 and have a better track record through the draft in that period.

The Dolphin's have drafted on average at pick 13 and have a much better record through the draft in that period.

*I have used when they were originally slotted, not where they necessarily picked.

When you add in the fact that the Raiders have made a lot of questionable selections in later rounds, and that they have made a few head scratching trade and free agency acquisitions(Hall and Walker etc) it looks like they could be a poor team for a while.

However, if Russell takes a step forward this year, the three RBs are all healthy, the offensive line plays above itself, the WRs make some plays, the defense gets better against the run then maybe they will get better, but that's a lot of ifs.

Not to completely badmouth the organisation I think the additions of both Seymour and Greg Ellis has increased talent dramatically and also added a veteran leadership.

It will be interesting to see how they do but in my opinion something fundamental in the organisation needs to change for them to emerge as enough an average team.

Bucs_Rule
09-08-2009, 01:47 PM
Thats true. Round 2 qbs seem to bust more than round 1 guys also. You figure they'd be guys who have success bc they can sit and learn without any front office pressure, and they have similar skill sets to the round 1 guys, but for some reason it just doesn't work as effectively.

They just aren't given nearly the same opportunities. 1st rounders get years to prove themselves on the field. 2nd rounders have to produce quickly or they will get yanked, if they even get an opportunity at all.

FlyingElvis
09-08-2009, 03:50 PM
because other teams, with FAR longer streaks of futility have done it by adding very simple pieces. i'm not suggesting you should expect them to be 13-3, i'm suggesting that immediately assuming a top 5 pick is utterly silly.

how many winning seasons did arizona have before going to the nfcc since 1980?

so you think it's entirely logical to project TWO YEARS out what will happen with a franchise? even when shown that, in the recent nfl, a team's record even a season before may be completely irrelevant? where have i suggested that one should assume anything EITHER WAY about their record? evaluate the trade as it is. an unknown pick in the first for seymour. this shouldn't be that hard.

:rolleyes: yes, silly assumptions and homerism are the hallmarks of mature, adult behavior.

the ONLY support for a top five pick is "omg, al davis" (who, iirc, was also in charge 7 years ago) or "they can't ever get better because they're the raiders". which are both easily refuted. if you want to assume a top 5 pick, do so. it doesn't make it logical, it's just wishful thinking/hoping.

Like I said, either assumption can be supported. Some teams have major turn arounds quickly and others consistently occupy the cellar. There is evidence for both.

You called it moronic to assume it would be a top 5. My point is that it really isn't moronic to suggest it will still be a high pick.

And the bolded part is just brilliant. My original response: "That's just it - we cut Seymour to save money so we can pay an unproven rookie more?"

I have to assume my homerism, as you see it, is this wishful thinking/hoping. Yet, clearly, I don't want it to be a high pick. Also, please feel free to show me where I assume a top 5 pick.

FlyingElvis
09-08-2009, 03:51 PM
I might be alone in this, but I stand by my statement that the Pats D will be better this year than it has been in the past 2 years.

I like their secondary, and I like their dline. Their only missing link is pass rushers at OLB, but I think Bellichick will make it work. He was always a coverage guy anyway, never really big on pressure.

And whenever he wants to bring pressure, he'll blitz DBs. Thats his MO.

He loves using 3 safeties and blitzing one along with whatever rushers are coming at the qb.

They'll be fine.

I think you're dead on with this. The DB unit was pretty weak last year and the pass rush was not up to Patriot standards either. Both are improved and I have said before that Jarvis would make a solid starter. I guess we'll find out about both soon enough.

Gay Ork Wang
09-08-2009, 05:01 PM
What if Al Davis dies this season, Jamarcus breaks out and the Raiders will have a great year with winning seasons to follow in a week division?

seriously assuming they will have a top10 pick in TWO SEASONS is ridiculous. You can hope for it but in 2 seasons there can be a lot of things happening. I mean 2006 the Titans were drafting in the top10 in consecutive years. look at them now

RaiderNation
09-08-2009, 05:34 PM
The longer he isnt here, the worse chance he will be here. I hope he comes with a new contract or doesnt come at all and we get our pick back

Donno
09-08-2009, 05:46 PM
The Raiders go 16-0 /end thread

RaiderNation
09-08-2009, 08:15 PM
Looks like the raiders have restructured RT Cornell Greena and RG Paul McQuisten contract to make more room for Seymour. So its still a wait and see right now. I hope he doesnt pull a Randy Moss and quit on us though a few games into the season. He shouldnt since we start off with 3 divisio games and we have a chance at going 2-1.

Also how the **** are the people above saying JaMacrus Russell has allready busted? Because he is black? a raider? doesnt have the "QB body"? Really WTF. He is 24 years old, younger than both Matt Ryan and Flacco. He has played in a total of 20 games. Going to start his 3rd season. 15 tds and 12 ints 73 passer rating in his total career so far. No its not Matt Ryan of last year, but was very close to Joe Flacco. And both had a better oline and WRs. Call Russel a bust in a few years if he doesnt put up great #'s.

Job
09-08-2009, 08:36 PM
Oakland's first round picks since 2003, with the exception of Asomugha, Russell(still a possible bust), Gallery(drafted 2nd overall and is their starting LG???) and Darren McFadden(injured a lot last year so I reserve judgement) have all busted. That is with them consistently picking in the high end of the first with the exception of 2003 and 2005.


So that's 4 starters out of 6... With both McFadden and Asomugha being studs and Russell still possibly being one too. I like how you go everyone but.... and then proceed to name almost every pick.

Bigburt63
09-08-2009, 08:43 PM
So that's 4 starters out of 6... With both McFadden and Asomugha being studs and Russell still possibly being one too. I like how you go everyone but.... and then proceed to name almost every pick.

McFadden is a stud? News to me. And I would definitely call Gallery a bust, he is a LG that was drafted #2 overall.

Job
09-08-2009, 08:45 PM
Yeah, stud might be too much for now. Yet he's very good whenever healthy.

Saints-Tigers
09-08-2009, 08:51 PM
Looks like the raiders have restructured RT Cornell Greena and RG Paul McQuisten contract to make more room for Seymour. So its still a wait and see right now. I hope he doesnt pull a Randy Moss and quit on us though a few games into the season. He shouldnt since we start off with 3 divisio games and we have a chance at going 2-1.

Also how the **** are the people above saying JaMacrus Russell has allready busted? Because he is black? a raider? doesnt have the "QB body"? Really WTF. He is 24 years old, younger than both Matt Ryan and Flacco. He has played in a total of 20 games. Going to start his 3rd season. 15 tds and 12 ints 73 passer rating in his total career so far. No its not Matt Ryan of last year, but was very close to Joe Flacco. And both had a better oline and WRs. Call Russel a bust in a few years if he doesnt put up great #'s.

Yea, I don't get it at all, he hasn't been Peyton Manning, but given the tools he's had to work with, I think he's done an admirable job for a guy that was a physical tools kind of guy, I thought he's made some solid progression every time he played.

I still can't figure out why he fumbles the ball so damn much when he has monstrous hands, but his passing of the football and not throwing interceptions has been good, IMO.

MichaelJordanEberle (sabf)
09-08-2009, 11:32 PM
That's just it - we cut Seymour to save money so we can pay an unproven rookie more?

This offseason has been a nightmare.


ex-*******-scuse me? A nightmare? The Patriots off-season. Child please.

YAYareaRB
09-08-2009, 11:43 PM
I think you're dead on with this. The DB unit was pretty weak last year and the pass rush was not up to Patriot standards either. Both are improved and I have said before that Jarvis would make a solid starter. I guess we'll find out about both soon enough.

Who's the asian guy in your sig?

the decider13
09-08-2009, 11:46 PM
Who's the asian guy in your sig?

It appears to be the Dalai lama with a patriots hat photoshopped on his head.

And I agree, with SABF, any pats who thinks their team had a horrible offseason needs some perspective. Actually anyone who isn't a Broncos fan should realize that they had at least a mediocre offseason.

YAYareaRB
09-08-2009, 11:52 PM
It appears to be the Dalai lama with a patriots hat photoshopped on his head.


I bet you it isn't photoshopped and that the Dalai Lama admires the way Bill Belichick dresses.

wogitalia
09-09-2009, 12:21 AM
I like the trade for both teams.

Pats get what could potentially be a very high draft pick for a guy that from all sources I hear they couldn't afford to keep.

Raiders get a franchise defensive lineman, key being to sign him for 3-4 years. Seymour should bring a positive influence to the defense which has a lot of talent now.

Raiders as a team, I'm not sure on. I didn't like Russell in the draft but he has probably been better than I expected so far and hasn't really shown anything to suggest bust yet, he is not intelligent, not athletic and has a huge arm, it was always going to take him a long time to learn a system(which keeps changing) and learn to play NFL football. Big arm goes both ways, it saves some bad throws but also creates and over-confidence.

I have no worry with them going for boom/bust guys, but you can't do it with every pick, sometimes the safe pick is the right pick. OL is still a worry until it proves otherwise. Their development of their young guys also seems to be horrible. They have drafted a few guys that were close to can't miss, that have missed, over the last few years. That secondary should be set by now, but isnt.

Shiver
09-09-2009, 12:32 AM
Looks like the raiders have restructured RT Cornell Greena and RG Paul McQuisten contract to make more room for Seymour. So its still a wait and see right now. I hope he doesnt pull a Randy Moss and quit on us though a few games into the season. He shouldnt since we start off with 3 divisio games and we have a chance at going 2-1.

Also how the **** are the people above saying JaMacrus Russell has allready busted? Because he is black? a raider? doesnt have the "QB body"? Really WTF. He is 24 years old, younger than both Matt Ryan and Flacco. He has played in a total of 20 games. Going to start his 3rd season. 15 tds and 12 ints 73 passer rating in his total career so far. No its not Matt Ryan of last year, but was very close to Joe Flacco. And both had a better oline and WRs. Call Russel a bust in a few years if he doesnt put up great #'s.

I've been impressed with Russell so far. I wish Schilens didn't get hurt so we could get a complete perspective early in the season, but Jamarcus seems to be going in the right direction.

RaiderNation
09-09-2009, 12:39 AM
I like the trade for both teams.

Pats get what could potentially be a very high draft pick for a guy that from all sources I hear they couldn't afford to keep.

Raiders get a franchise defensive lineman, key being to sign him for 3-4 years. Seymour should bring a positive influence to the defense which has a lot of talent now.

Raiders as a team, I'm not sure on. I didn't like Russell in the draft but he has probably been better than I expected so far and hasn't really shown anything to suggest bust yet, he is not intelligent, not athletic and has a huge arm, it was always going to take him a long time to learn a system(which keeps changing) and learn to play NFL football. Big arm goes both ways, it saves some bad throws but also creates and over-confidence.

I have no worry with them going for boom/bust guys, but you can't do it with every pick, sometimes the safe pick is the right pick. OL is still a worry until it proves otherwise. Their development of their young guys also seems to be horrible. They have drafted a few guys that were close to can't miss, that have missed, over the last few years. That secondary should be set by now, but isnt.

How do you know he istn intelligent? Well he went to LSU, did very well for them in college, and has been alright so far Alex Smith went to Utah and is very smart, how is he doing?

Not athletic? Because he weighs 260? Should see some of his runs, no he isnt Vick or McNabb, but he can run around if needed. Ask cowboys fans this preseason, he made a 17 yard run where he made a guy or 2 miss.

RaiderNation
09-09-2009, 12:42 AM
I've been impressed with Russell so far. I wish Schilens didn't get hurt so we could get a complete perspective early in the season, but Jamarcus seems to be going in the right direction.

Same here. He looked great against Dallas, and was looking better last year in the last few games. All reports from training camp was he out performed every WR(yes thats not that hard with the WR's we got). Should be back week 2 or 3. 6'4 220 4.38 speed with a good pair of hands, good work effort, and seems like a cool guy from interviews Ive watched.

CC.SD
09-09-2009, 12:50 AM
Honestly despite any disinclination i might have towards the Raiders, I do want to see Jamarcus succeed. If a guy like that actually reaches his potential, that would be a thing of beauty.

Dam8610
09-09-2009, 01:08 AM
I might be alone in this, but I stand by my statement that the Pats D will be better this year than it has been in the past 2 years.

Honestly, that's the most bizarre conclusion you could possibly draw from this. How could a defense that has lost so much in terms of both talent and leadership over this offseason improve?

I like their secondary, and I like their dline. Their only missing link is pass rushers at OLB, but I think Bellichick will make it work. He was always a coverage guy anyway, never really big on pressure.

Their secondary is full of past their prime vets and young projects, and their DL is now minus one of its previously two best players, then they have only one proven linebacker in Mayo and little behind him. If Belichick makes this one work, he truly is a mastermind, because there's a difference between getting the best out of proven players who were considered over the hill by their previous team and developing rookies on the fly.

And whenever he wants to bring pressure, he'll blitz DBs. Thats his MO.

Will he? Please? That sounds great for any team with a good QB.

He loves using 3 safeties and blitzing one along with whatever rushers are coming at the qb.

They'll be fine.

So they'll be fine because Belichick likes to use a heavy nickel package? I know scheme can make a difference, but ultimately it comes down to the ability of the players to execute that scheme, which takes talent and experience, both of which the Patriots defense has lost in copious amounts this offseason.

wogitalia
09-09-2009, 01:16 AM
How do you know he istn intelligent? Well he went to LSU, did very well for them in college, and has been alright so far Alex Smith went to Utah and is very smart, how is he doing?

Just the impression I have got from every time I have ever seen him talk, just does not seem intelligent. It really only affects how quickly you pick up a system for me and he hasn't been able to because it has changed every year. Believe it or not, my post was more a defense of JR than anything else.

Not athletic? Because he weighs 260? Should see some of his runs, no he isnt Vick or McNabb, but he can run around if needed. Ask cowboys fans this preseason, he made a 17 yard run where he made a guy or 2 miss.

Not athletic because he is not athletic. Don't get me wrong, he isn't Drew Bledsloe by any means but he is not athletic. Brady and Manning have had 17 yard runs(or at least close). It doesn't make them athletic by any means. He moves well enough but he does not have the "crutch" of being athletic like Vick or Young could use when they struggled a bit with reads. Basically if Jamarcus struggles he is either going to have to force a pass or take a sack for the majority of plays(or throw it away).

Not a knock, he is young, left as a junior and was always going to be at least a 3 year project(I personally thought he was a 5 year project at best coming out) We are in year 3 now, I expect he will probably start to show a bit because as I said before, he is ahead of where I expected him to be.

Raiders fans are just so touchy it is kind of sad. A comment isn't necessarily a negative one just because it is about one of your players...

RaiderNation
09-09-2009, 01:33 AM
When your team gets critizied by BSPN and ignorant posters every single day you will know how we feel lol. People saying," Patriots will have the #1 pick in 2years is well dumb. But alright I understand and agree with most everything you said in the post above

wogitalia
09-09-2009, 02:32 AM
When your team gets critizied by BSPN and ignorant posters every single day you will know how we feel lol. People saying," Patriots will have the #1 pick in 2years is well dumb. But alright I understand and agree with most everything you said in the post above

You do cop it pretty hard. The Pats may get pick 1, I doubt it, but you never know, they may also get 32.

Regardless I like the trade for both sides still. Raiders need a shot in the arm, this is the type of move that makes the other guys stand up and think "we can win now", only way they lose massively is if they don't sign Seymour or they do and Seymour gets injured and Pats get a top 5 pick.

AntoinCD
09-09-2009, 05:07 AM
Honestly, that's the most bizarre conclusion you could possibly draw from this. How could a defense that has lost so much in terms of both talent and leadership over this offseason improve?



Their secondary is full of past their prime vets and young projects, and their DL is now minus one of its previously two best players, then they have only one proven linebacker in Mayo and little behind him. If Belichick makes this one work, he truly is a mastermind, because there's a difference between getting the best out of proven players who were considered over the hill by their previous team and developing rookies on the fly.



Will he? Please? That sounds great for any team with a good QB.



So they'll be fine because Belichick likes to use a heavy nickel package? I know scheme can make a difference, but ultimately it comes down to the ability of the players to execute that scheme, which takes talent and experience, both of which the Patriots defense has lost in copious amounts this offseason.

Well firstly, with the exception of Seymour the said players(Bruschi, Vrable, Harrison and Hobbs) have all been replaced by younger more productive players in Mayo, Burgess, Merriweather and Bodden/Butler/Wilhite. So really it is just their locker room presence which will be missed. Secondly, with the exception of Springs exactly which member of the secondary is past their prime? Thirdly, I could have sworn that Adalius Thomas was a proven linebacker. And finally it is a fact that all teams will lose players. The team that can replace those players the best will ultimately be successful. The Patriots replaced Harrison by drafting Merriweather in 2007. They prepared for losing Bruschi by drafting Mayo. They were prepared to lose Seymour because they had Jarvis Green and drafted Ron Brace. And scheme means a lot. Its why the Colts can put scrubs in at linebacker year in and year out but still be successful.

awfullyquiet
09-09-2009, 07:03 AM
Somehow i Missed that this was a 2011 draft pick... not at 2010 draft pick...

That changes the entire complexion of this...

Bigburt63
09-09-2009, 09:10 AM
It appears to be the Dalai lama with a patriots hat photoshopped on his head.

And I agree, with SABF, any pats who thinks their team had a horrible offseason needs some perspective. Actually anyone who isn't a Broncos fan should realize that they had at least a mediocre offseason.

It is not photoshopped. Earlier in the pre-season (mini-camp IIRC) the Dalai Lama was visiting Gillete Stadium giving a speech and for a little while donned a red patriots hat.

no bare feet
09-09-2009, 10:03 AM
Well firstly, with the exception of Seymour the said players(Bruschi, Vrable, Harrison and Hobbs) have all been replaced by younger more productive players in Mayo, Burgess, Merriweather and Bodden/Butler/Wilhite.

Sadly, Hobbs is more productive than Bodden, Butler and Wilhite(who are those last two guys, oh yeahr people that haven't proved anything). Just becuase they are younger doesn't mean better. I would take Bruschi and Vrable together over Burgess, but just one its a toss up.

I just don't get some of the moves right now, but if somethign works out people will say they new it would work out all along because its the Patriots. How are Maroney, Kareem brown, Greg Lewis, Kevin Oconnel, Chad Jackson, Ben Watson, Gus Scott doing. I think the fact that some moves like finding Tom Brady, getting Welker and Moss and some decent drafts have overshadowed the ups and downs of offseasons that every team has had. They haven't been perfect but have had some success yes. But this offseason seems different. But will will find out at the end of the next 3-4 seasons how it works out. I am not saying good or bad or anything yet, but it seems different.

Jvig43
09-09-2009, 10:20 AM
Sadly, Hobbs is more productive than Bodden, Butler and Wilhite(who are those last two guys, oh yeahr people that haven't proved anything). Just becuase they are younger doesn't mean better. I would take Bruschi and Vrable together over Burgess, but just one its a toss up.

I just don't get some of the moves right now, but if somethign works out people will say they new it would work out all along because its the Patriots. How are Maroney, Kareem brown, Greg Lewis, Kevin Oconnel, Chad Jackson, Ben Watson, Gus Scott doing. I think the fact that some moves like finding Tom Brady, getting Welker and Moss and some decent drafts have overshadowed the ups and downs of offseasons that every team has had. They haven't been perfect but have had some success yes. But this offseason seems different. But will will find out at the end of the next 3-4 seasons how it works out. I am not saying good or bad or anything yet, but it seems different.

I'd say weve had more than SOME success since 2000, and no, no team is perfect. From what ive observed this preseason I liked the look of our defense, but that was with Seymour and Bruschi so idk what it will look like without those two, but I was impressed with the DBs for the most part, and how well we did playing in the 4-3.

AntoinCD
09-09-2009, 10:54 AM
Sadly, Hobbs is more productive than Bodden, Butler and Wilhite(who are those last two guys, oh yeahr people that haven't proved anything). Just becuase they are younger doesn't mean better. I would take Bruschi and Vrable together over Burgess, but just one its a toss up.

I just don't get some of the moves right now, but if somethign works out people will say they new it would work out all along because its the Patriots. How are Maroney, Kareem brown, Greg Lewis, Kevin Oconnel, Chad Jackson, Ben Watson, Gus Scott doing. I think the fact that some moves like finding Tom Brady, getting Welker and Moss and some decent drafts have overshadowed the ups and downs of offseasons that every team has had. They haven't been perfect but have had some success yes. But this offseason seems different. But will will find out at the end of the next 3-4 seasons how it works out. I am not saying good or bad or anything yet, but it seems different.

Yea I shouldnt have put Butler in this conversation but Bodden in his Cleveland days was better, last year was a write off for me because he has shown his ability before. Wilhite played very well down the stretch last year and Hobbs gave up way too many ah plays last year. I get where your coming from though.

FlyingElvis
09-09-2009, 11:45 AM
don't disagree here.



you quoted my response to a number of people who did just that. i could only conclude that you were defending that assumption/homerism.

*shrug*

my original response was primarily directed to the numerous people who essentially posted "lol, #1 overallz here we/the pats come". i don't know why you decided to be offended by my classification of those posts, but i stand by that classification.
I wasn't offended. I just think "moronic" is a poor classification for something that has a reasonable chance of happening.

Looking at the post in which I quoted you I think some of my irritation at the truly ignorant post I quoted there made its way into my repsonse to you.

http://i140.photobucket.com/albums/r39/dmc27sinned/smiley/beerchug.gif

FlyingElvis
09-09-2009, 11:55 AM
Looks like the raiders have restructured RT Cornell Greena and RG Paul McQuisten contract to make more room for Seymour. So its still a wait and see right now. I hope he doesnt pull a Randy Moss and quit on us though a few games into the season. He shouldnt since we start off with 3 divisio games and we have a chance at going 2-1.

This will never, ever happen. Ever. I'll eat the Dalai Lama's hat if it does. lol

**As BigBurt mentioned - it is not a chop. The Dalai Lama visited with the Patriots back in May - link to article (and the stolen sig pic) (http://www.boston.com/sports/football/patriots/reiss_pieces/2009/05/dalai_lama_dons.html)
ex-*******-scuse me? A nightmare? The Patriots off-season. Child please.

Ok, so I'm a little spoiled. There's no need to curse me out. lol

Splat
09-09-2009, 11:55 AM
Source: Seymour thought he was getting a new deal in New England (http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2009/09/09/source-seymour-thought-he-was-getting-a-new-deal-in-new-england/)

FlyingElvis
09-09-2009, 12:01 PM
Oops. That's some good representin' right there.

Borat
09-09-2009, 12:06 PM
Wow, shocking that Eugene Parker possibly misled Seymour. What an ass-clown.

Gay Ork Wang
09-09-2009, 12:48 PM
haha eugene parker is doing some good work this offseason

AntoinCD
09-09-2009, 01:32 PM
haha eugene parker is doing some good work this offseason

Yea thats why Crabtree hasnt signed for the 49ers yet. He thought he was getting a new deal with the Patriots too

bernbabybern820
09-09-2009, 01:54 PM
Damn this is getting pretty ridiculous. I was pretty excited about the trade before but now i just want this to go away.

Splat
09-09-2009, 01:58 PM
The longer this drags out the more it hurts the Raiders obviously I don't see him making much of an impact the first few games once/if he signs.

mqtirishfan
09-09-2009, 02:23 PM
How do you know he istn intelligent?

I'll allow you to answer your own question.

Well he went to LSU

Dam8610
09-09-2009, 03:09 PM
Well firstly, with the exception of Seymour the said players(Bruschi, Vrable, Harrison and Hobbs) have all been replaced by younger more productive players in Mayo, Burgess, Merriweather and Bodden/Butler/Wilhite. So really it is just their locker room presence which will be missed. Secondly, with the exception of Springs exactly which member of the secondary is past their prime? Thirdly, I could have sworn that Adalius Thomas was a proven linebacker. And finally it is a fact that all teams will lose players. The team that can replace those players the best will ultimately be successful. The Patriots replaced Harrison by drafting Merriweather in 2007. They prepared for losing Bruschi by drafting Mayo. They were prepared to lose Seymour because they had Jarvis Green and drafted Ron Brace. And scheme means a lot. Its why the Colts can put scrubs in at linebacker year in and year out but still be successful.

Firstly, you're assuming all those players will be more productive/effective, we've yet to see anything from Butler and Wilhite, Bodden's last productive season was some time ago, as was Burgess's, and Meriweather was playing last season and so was Mayo, so if they're replacing people, then who's replacing them? Secondly, I said "past their prime vets", which is Springs and could very well be Bodden since he hasn't done much in a while, "and young projects", which is pretty much everyone else. Thirdly, I forgot Adalius Thomas, but that still leaves 2 huge holes to fill at LB and as I recall Thomas is coming off an injury and on the wrong side of 30. Obviously scheme means something, because Derrick Brooks probably would've never been a Pro Bowl LB in a 34, nor would DeMarcus Ware be a Pro Bowl LB in a 43, but ultimately no amount of scheming will cover lack of talent and experience, and I'd argue this is the least talented and experienced group of defenders the Patriots have fielded in some time.

DMWSackMachine
09-09-2009, 04:19 PM
What's amazing to me is the way the Patriots have changed their indentity, fielded an entirely different set of benefits and strengths than they did during their SB years, become a star studded cast of egos, and built their entire team around the star factor....and yet people continue to a) still give them credit for being a quietly-go-about-your-business-and-win-by-doing-the-little-things type of team and b) ignore the fact that they haven't won anything of significance by doing so, as their last SB win was a half decade ago.

It literally blows my mind out of my face.

So first of all, let's get something straight: the Pats D each of the past two (arguably 4) years has been nothing to brag about. Not since 2004 have they fielded an elite unit. Last year they were simply "meh", being a pretty solid run unit but quite weak versus the pass (especially vs good pass catching TEs). When Ellis Hobbs is your best CB, you are really hurting. So they have--until proven otherwise--likely downgraded from an already weak unit by adding more over-the-hill/reclaimation-project CBs and some young dudes who haven't shown anything yet.

Derrick Burgess? DERRICK BURGESS? He of the 3.5 sacks last season? Shifting to a new position without the benefit of a training camp to make it work? He's the replacement for the ballyhooed Vrabel? The dude who was everyone's favorite guy just two years back? Excuse me for raising on eyebrow at that one.


The one thing I will say is this: Seymour hasn't been Seymour for the last 3 years. He got back to some of it last year, but not all the way. When he was 26 I thought he had a chance to be the best 5 tech of all time. He was that good. He dominated almost every time he got on the field. Lately he's just been "good" to "very good".

But still, you're losing a prime-of-his-career vet that was a real pro's pro and was an anchor of your team, let alone your defense. That will have its effects.

If Brace steps up, they could be just fine. But I don't see Green as being a full time starter (though he's a really good backup). Wilfork is a beast inside and Warren remains among the games best kept secrets. He's been better than Seymour in my eyes for the last 3 years.



At LB you have Mayo and an aging Adalius Thomas. Outside of that you're looking pretty thin. Unless at least one of the McKenzie, Guyton, Crable trio steps up (and I haven't followed TC much, so I don't know how they've looked) big time, that unit will be a weakness too.

Just too many holes. With the personnel I see, I have a hard time believing this unit will be anything better than average overall. If it wasn't for Evil Bill running the show, I would expect a bottom 10 finish. But even with him, I can't see them as a top 10 (let alone top 5) type of defense. If he gets them there, it will be his best coaching job yet.

But if the Pats are going to be a contender this year, it will be by dominating offensively.

Bigburt63
09-09-2009, 05:30 PM
What's amazing to me is the way the Patriots have changed their indentity, fielded an entirely different set of benefits and strengths than they did during their SB years, become a star studded cast of egos, and built their entire team around the star factor....and yet people continue to a) still give them credit for being a quietly-go-about-your-business-and-win-by-doing-the-little-things type of team and b) ignore the fact that they haven't won anything of significance by doing so, as their last SB win was a half decade ago.
They are a quiet, go-about-your business-and-win-by-doing-the-little-things type of team. How does having star players make you not that type of team?
It literally blows my mind out of my face.

So first of all, let's get something straight: the Pats D each of the past two (arguably 4) years has been nothing to brag about. Not since 2004 have they fielded an elite unit. Last year they were simply "meh", being a pretty solid run unit but quite weak versus the pass (especially vs good pass catching TEs). When Ellis Hobbs is your best CB, you are really hurting. So they have--until proven otherwise--likely downgraded from an already weak unit by adding more over-the-hill/reclaimation-project CBs and some young dudes who haven't shown anything yet.

So going from Ellis Hobbs and Deltha O'Neal as your starting corners to some combination of Bodden, Springs, Wilhite, and Butler is not any sort of upgrade? Hobbs is a good #2, and O'Neal is just terrible. Wilhite looked good down the stretch, Bodden has looked great thus far, and Springs may still have some gas left. Butler is a rookie, so we'll have to wait and see what he has.

Derrick Burgess? DERRICK BURGESS? He of the 3.5 sacks last season? Shifting to a new position without the benefit of a training camp to make it work? He's the replacement for the ballyhooed Vrabel? The dude who was everyone's favorite guy just two years back? Excuse me for raising on eyebrow at that one.
Burgess also had 8 sacks the year before that, and 11 the year before that. He was injured last year. He played LE in our 4 man sets this pre-season, and was fairly effective. I think we can get some production out of him, he is only 31, not ancient.

The one thing I will say is this: Seymour hasn't been Seymour for the last 3 years. He got back to some of it last year, but not all the way. When he was 26 I thought he had a chance to be the best 5 tech of all time. He was that good. He dominated almost every time he got on the field. Lately he's just been "good" to "very good".

But still, you're losing a prime-of-his-career vet that was a real pro's pro and was an anchor of your team, let alone your defense. That will have its effects.
I would say Wilfork is the anchor of our defense, but yes i agree, losing Seymour hurts, even if he hadn't been playing at his normal superb standards.

If Brace steps up, they could be just fine. But I don't see Green as being a full time starter (though he's a really good backup). Wilfork is a beast inside and Warren remains among the games best kept secrets. He's been better than Seymour in my eyes for the last 3 years.



At LB you have Mayo and an aging Adalius Thomas. Outside of that you're looking pretty thin. Unless at least one of the McKenzie, Guyton, Crable trio steps up (and I haven't followed TC much, so I don't know how they've looked) big time, that unit will be a weakness too.

Crable and McKenzie are out for the year. Guyton is taking the place of Bruschi, as he subbed in with him last year. Thomas, Woods, Banta-Cain are all on the outside, also Burgess and Ninkovich (spelling?) Most pats fans wee in favor of getting more LB depth.

Just too many holes. With the personnel I see, I have a hard time believing this unit will be anything better than average overall. If it wasn't for Evil Bill running the show, I would expect a bottom 10 finish. But even with him, I can't see them as a top 10 (let alone top 5) type of defense. If he gets them there, it will be his best coaching job yet.

The run defense was pretty good last year, and I expect it to be more of the same this year. The DB's have all improved as we have more depth and the young guys from last year have some experience now. A more consistent pass rush is needed however.
But if the Pats are going to be a contender this year, it will be by dominating offensively.
Probably, but the defense shouldn't be atrocious.


response in bold

Gay Ork Wang
09-09-2009, 05:33 PM
Wait so that burgess had 11 sacks 3 years ago, 8 sacks 2 years ago and only 3.5 sacks last year...what does that tell you?

Smooth Criminal
09-09-2009, 05:37 PM
Tells me he had a down year last year and 3 years ago he got to play Max Starks.

Gay Ork Wang
09-09-2009, 05:43 PM
Tells me he had a down year last year and 3 years ago he got to play Max Starks.
since 2005 his sacks and his games played have decreased. i just dont how he could be somewhat a huge contributer or replace guys like vrabel who was constantly putting pressure at the qb but also stopping the run

Bigburt63
09-09-2009, 05:50 PM
since 2005 his sacks and his games played have decreased. i just dont how he could be somewhat a huge contributer or replace guys like vrabel who was constantly putting pressure at the qb but also stopping the run

Vrable fell off quite a bit. I mean, don't get me wrong, losing Vrable does hurt, but he was not what he used to be.

And as for Burgess, he got hurt last year and missed some time, which was definitely part of the reason for his falling sack numbers.

Gay Ork Wang
09-09-2009, 05:54 PM
he missed 2 years before that. What tells you he isnt going to miss time this year? id call that getting injury prone

Smooth Criminal
09-09-2009, 06:12 PM
I wasn't trying to say Burgess would contribute at all. But NE always seems to put guys like him in their system and have them thrive.

aNYtitan
09-09-2009, 07:07 PM
IMO the Raiders are idiots to trade this pick to a guy that will bolt after this season. Raiders fans should be all giddy that Seymour is staying far far away, maybe they can get a way to throw annul this trade

Bucs_Rule
09-09-2009, 07:44 PM
IMO the Raiders are idiots to trade this pick to a guy that will bolt after this season. Raiders fans should be all giddy that Seymour is staying far far away, maybe they can get a way to throw annul this trade

Exactly. They should have negotiated an extension before the deal. In this case they would have found out he won't.

I don't blame Seymour. I wouldn't want to go to Oakland. Davis will tag him after his contract expires. In NE its a good chance they won't tag him and he can get a ton of money and choose where he goes next. If its an uncapped year and he's one of few high profile FAs he will get paid hardcore.

aNYtitan
09-09-2009, 07:49 PM
Exactly. They should have negotiated an extension before the deal. In this case they would have found out he won't.

I don't blame Seymour. I wouldn't want to go to Oakland. Davis will tag him after his contract expires. In NE its a good chance they won't tag him and he can get a ton of money and choose where he goes next. If its an uncapped year and he's one of few high profile FAs he will get paid hardcore.

They wouldn't have been able to keep both him and Wilfork (who wants an extension after the season). The following year may be uncapped, but the year after that, I doubt the owners and the PA will allow a lockout to happen

Nalej
09-09-2009, 08:19 PM
Yea, Wilfork is what's important and we can't afford both. I rather get a 1st rd pick in 11 then a 3rd or 4th rd comp pick in 10

Dam8610
09-09-2009, 08:20 PM
Wait so that burgess had 11 sacks 3 years ago, 8 sacks 2 years ago and only 3.5 sacks last year...what does that tell you?

That he'll have a breakout season at the age of 31 because he's a Patriot now! :rolleyes:

Dam8610
09-09-2009, 08:22 PM
Yea, Wilfork is what's important and we can't afford both. I rather get a 1st rd pick in 11 then a 3rd or 4th rd comp pick in 10

So not even a Pats fan thinks Seymour could have garnered a high 2010 pick from some team? Sometimes I wonder if Pats fans would shoot their own mothers to defend the actions of their team.

Nalej
09-09-2009, 08:46 PM
No, I do not think we could have got a 1st round draft pick for a 30 (going on 31) DE/DT who other teams knew we couldn't afford and had to trade.
With that said- if I was the GM- Seymour would still be a Patriot bc we are a better team THIS year with him and thats what I'm worried about right now.

Dam8610
09-09-2009, 08:49 PM
No, I do not think we could have got a 1st round draft pick for a 30 (going on 31) DE/DT who other teams knew we couldn't afford and had to trade.
With that said- if I was the GM- Seymour would still be a Patriot bc we are a better team THIS year with him and thats what I'm worried about right now.

Honestly I didn't say a first rounder, but I think a contender might have paid that and certainly he would have garnered more in the 2010 draft via trade than via compensation (which would have come in 2011 by the way), at the very least a 2nd round pick. He's still a very good player, maybe not the anchor of a defense anymore, but still very good.

falloutboy14
09-09-2009, 08:56 PM
Yea, Wilfork is what's important and we can't afford both. I rather get a 1st rd pick in 11 then a 3rd or 4th rd comp pick in 10

How much are you going to miss the 32nd pick in '10 though.

Nalej
09-09-2009, 09:02 PM
Honestly I didn't say a first rounder, but I think a contender might have paid that and certainly he would have garnered more in the 2010 draft via trade than via compensation (which would have come in 2011 by the way), at the very least a 2nd round pick. He's still a very good player, maybe not the anchor of a defense anymore, but still very good.

I know you didn't say a 1st but since that's what we got for it- that's what I mentioned. Like you said- probably a 2nd rounder which still isn't a 1st. Plus, I'm not sure BB wants to trade him to a contender- why make your competition better? I think he sent him to a losing franchise on purpose.

How much are you going to miss the 32nd pick in '10 though.

You implying that we won't win the Super Bowl solely on the fact that we traded Seymour?

wogitalia
09-09-2009, 09:12 PM
Honestly I didn't say a first rounder, but I think a contender might have paid that and certainly he would have garnered more in the 2010 draft via trade than via compensation

The contender comment is the key there, I would think the Pats made this trade as much because it is the Raiders and thus unlikely to come back and bite them in the ass this season. You don't want to trade a franchise calibre defensive lineman and have it cost you a superbowl that season. Basically that rules out their best market for a guy like Seymour, enter the Raiders as a viable trade partner as a team perceived not to be a superbowl contender, willing to offer about as much as anyone could expect. Sure beats getting the compensation pick in the same season, which, best case scenario would be a 3rd rounder.

On top of that, there is a big difference when trading a guy who is 30 going on 31 to a guy 29 going on 30. The big 3 0 is the big no no in the NFL these days.

bored of education
09-09-2009, 09:13 PM
I know you didn't say a 1st but since that's what we got for it- that's what I mentioned. Like you said- probably a 2nd rounder which still isn't a 1st. Plus, I'm not sure BB wants to trade him to a contender- why make your competition better? I think he sent him to a losing franchise on purpose.



You implying that we won't win the Super Bowl solely on the fact that we traded Seymour?
Its an assumption like people saying 2011 from Oak is a top 10 pick. Moronic nonetheless. The patriots had the best offense ever and lost the super bowl in 200whatever. the losses they had this off season makes me think the D is worse than it was then. So i think assuming the defense has fell of is not an assumption becuz u cant assume Brace, Burgess, Butler, and who ever will supplant the heart and sole of the dynasty D's in Harrison, Burschi, Vrable and Seymour.

id ont feel like spell checking that i butchered it. get your boe decoder ring via plus repping me!

falloutboy14
09-09-2009, 09:16 PM
You implying that we won't win the Super Bowl solely on the fact that we traded Seymour?

I'm stating that every SB the Pats have been in have been decided by 3 points or less, where one play can decide the outcome. And you just traded away a play-maker so you could hopefully get one as good as the player you traded 2 years from now. Scheme change or not, building for the future or not, this move makes your team weaker this year.

Bucs_Rule
09-09-2009, 09:39 PM
Losing Seymour definitly hurts the Pats chances for the next 2 seasons. New England has to think about whats in the best long-term interest, getting Oakland's 2011 1st rounder improves their chances in the long-term. Its hard to contend for a long period of time as you keep losing good players to age and lack of cap space.

Im sure Bill Belichick expects to contend once Brady is gone. In order to do that he needs a very strong supporting cast.

2 years, maybe 3 if they can tag Seymour, isn't worth Oakland's 2011 1st rounder. I don't think its very close.

Jvig43
09-09-2009, 10:01 PM
So not even a Pats fan thinks Seymour could have garnered a high 2010 pick from some team? Sometimes I wonder if Pats fans would shoot their own mothers to defend the actions of their team.

Bitter much? Obviously fans are going to try to defend moves there team makes, unless its a complete bone head decision ( Denver cough). This really isnt a bad deal for us at all, idk why your acting as if were trying to defend trading Tom Brady for a second rounder here, just wait and see i'm sure the Pats will be fine this season.

wogitalia
09-09-2009, 11:14 PM
The Pats will be worse for this trade this season. I don't think anyone argued that.

They might nab their next QB with that pick though or replace Moss. That is the risk they are taking. They were and a contender this year or at least they should be. They just aren't quite as strong a contender now, but it could mean they remain a contender for a long time. Certainly a move worth making with a guy that was there for 1 year more.

RaiderNation
09-10-2009, 12:05 AM
Probably isnt true but....
http://boards.espn.go.com/boards/mb/mb?sport=nfl&id=oak&tid=5370496&lid=14

We all know that Julius Peppers has been a little upset with how his contract situation was dealt with by the Carolina Panthers. But are the Panthers ready to cut ties?

Within today's mailbag column, NFL Insider Adam Schefter presents a trade scenario that would send Peppers off to Oakland in exchange for Richard Seymour, who still hasn't reported to the team.

Trading one upset player for another might not be an ideal move, but as Schefter notes, Seymour makes his offseason home near where the Panthers play and the Panthers might not care what Peppers wants anymore. Furthermore, while Carolina was reticent to give Peppers his long-term payday, Al Davis is no stranger to breaking the bank for guys that he wants.

Geo
09-10-2009, 12:08 AM
I don't buy that. I think Carolina would rather have Peppers and he probably has more trade value as a franchised player this offseason.

Dam8610
09-10-2009, 02:50 AM
Bitter much? Obviously fans are going to try to defend moves there team makes, unless its a complete bone head decision ( Denver cough). This really isnt a bad deal for us at all, idk why your acting as if were trying to defend trading Tom Brady for a second rounder here, just wait and see i'm sure the Pats will be fine this season.

How is that bitter? It's merely an observation of the past few years of behavior. I've seen one Pats fan out of all of them that I've encountered at any point actually admit that the team did something wrong on Spygate without trying to mitigate it by saying "everyone does it", and seemingly every decision the team makes the fans follow like blind sheep. No fanbase questions their team less, which is bizarre to me since they've made some questionable moves over the past few seasons, this being by far the biggest.

AntoinCD
09-10-2009, 04:12 AM
It always comes back to spygate doesnt it. No one can come out and say the Patriots done nothing wrong in that situation. It was against the rules, they were punished its over. Im not going to come out and say other teams do it because first of all I dont no if they do or not and secondly I dont really care. However describing a whole teams fanbase as if they are all the same is a little bit of a generalisation. I understand that people will dislike certain teams, its just a fact in sports but there really are better ways of making an arguement than by attacking their fans

FlyingElvis
09-10-2009, 08:50 AM
So not even a Pats fan thinks Seymour could have garnered a high 2010 pick from some team? Sometimes I wonder if Pats fans would shoot their own mothers to defend the actions of their team.
How exactly does he garner any pick at all as a free agent?

How is that bitter? It's merely an observation of the past few years of behavior. I've seen one Pats fan out of all of them that I've encountered at any point actually admit that the team did something wrong on Spygate without trying to mitigate it by saying "everyone does it", and seemingly every decision the team makes the fans follow like blind sheep. No fanbase questions their team less, which is bizarre to me since they've made some questionable moves over the past few seasons, this being by far the biggest.
Really? How many Pats fans have you encountered?

Gay Ork Wang
09-10-2009, 09:28 AM
It always comes back to spygate doesnt it. No one can come out and say the Patriots done nothing wrong in that situation. It was against the rules, they were punished its over. Im not going to come out and say other teams do it because first of all I dont no if they do or not and secondly I dont really care. However describing a whole teams fanbase as if they are all the same is a little bit of a generalisation. I understand that people will dislike certain teams, its just a fact in sports but there really are better ways of making an arguement than by attacking their fans
Jay basically did

Jvig43
09-10-2009, 09:35 AM
How is that bitter? It's merely an observation of the past few years of behavior. I've seen one Pats fan out of all of them that I've encountered at any point actually admit that the team did something wrong on Spygate without trying to mitigate it by saying "everyone does it", and seemingly every decision the team makes the fans follow like blind sheep. No fanbase questions their team less, which is bizarre to me since they've made some questionable moves over the past few seasons, this being by far the biggest.

For the most part, I remeber most Pats fans on this board at least just being really upset about spy gate, I dont recall too many of them trying to blame every other team with well they did it too. I recall even posting stating theres nothing any pats fan can say that will make this better, it sucked but hey its over. This was seymours last year, we werent going to tag him, he would of become a free agent and we would of gotten nothing for him. I agree this hurts our defense, he was easily our second best guy on D but again its not like we havent done alright with him out with injuries in the past, as most have stated, hes missed considerable time with injuries the last few years.