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BlindSite
09-07-2009, 09:43 PM
I'm sick of threads that have the following:

Predict
List your
Who do you think is

So I decided to make this thread, took me a while going through a bunch of sources but here's some info ya'll probably don't know.

Steve Smith (CAR) was targeted 34% of passing snaps, highest in the NFL Brandon Marshall (DEN) was the NFL's most thrown to receiver nominally

Tony Gonzalez (ATL) blocked on average one passing play per game in 2008

Kellen Winslow (TB) Soldiered it up by blocking just 3 times on passing plays in 2008

Braylon Edwards (CLE) dropped over one third of all passes thrown his way

Larry Fitzgerald (Ari) is the NFL's most dependable primary target dropping just 3.14% of passes last year

Jared Gaither (BAL) only allowed 3 hits (1 sack) on his QB all season in 08

Johnathen Goodwin (NO) gave up the least amount of sacks for a C last year with 0

Greg White (TB) played a little over half the number of snaps as Gaines Adams (TB) yet recorded just 3 less hits on a QB and the same number of sacks

Jarrett Johnson (BAL) replacement to Adalius Thomas is probably the league's most versatile defender. Johnson played over 1,000 snaps last year at all 12 positions in the 34 and 43 (ILB/MLB x3, OLB x4, DE x4 and DT (43) at one time or another, the only exception NT in the 34.

Gerald Hayes (ARI) Played over 200 lass snaps than Karlos Dansby by finished with just 3 less stops.

Ahmad Bradshaw (NYG) and Derrick Ward (TB) both averaged more yards after contact than Brandon Jacobs (NYG)

Top 5 most elusive running backs (most missed tackles)
1. DeAngelo Williams (CAR) 58
2. Adrian Petersen (MIN) 52
3. Michael Turner (ATL) 51
4. Marshawn Lynch (BUF) 43
5. Johnathan Stewart (CAR) 35

Pierre Thomas (NO) was stuffed at the line the least of any running back in the NFL

Despite having over 1,000 yards rushing Derrick Ward (TB) had as many TD's as Fumbles (2) last year.

When adjusted for Defensive opponent and situation by football outsiders Adrian Peterson ranks as the NFL's 17th best RB last year.

Over half of undrafted WR Davon Bess (MIA) Yards came after the catch. If not for his short area elusiveness he wouldn't have eclipsed 300 yards receiving or 5 yards per catch.


Sources:
Football outsiders (http://www.footballoutsiders.com)
Pro Football Focus (http://www.profootballfocus.com/)

EDIT:

Chad Pennington (MIA) is the NFL's all time leader in completion percentage with 66%. For having a noodle arm his Passer rating over 20 yard completions is 91.6

Of Fred Jackson's (BUF) 317 yards receiving in 2008 303 of them came after first contact.

Juqua Parker (PHI) had more QB pressures than all but four other players in the NFL.

Leroy Hill (SEA) missed half as many tackles as Julian Petersen (SEA) and one third as many as Lofa Tatupu (SEA)

Chris Gamble (CAR) was targeted more than any other corner in the NFL (124 times) by allowed only 56.6% of completions (less than Darelle Revis (NYJ) who allowed 58.3%). The 70 completed were for an average of 11.5 yards and only 3.6 YAC. Meaning Gamble allowed just 6.5 yards per attempt. Putting him at 9th best for coverage in the NFL.

Eric Wright (CLE) allowed the longest pass against him to go for 28 yards, better than anyone else in the NFL.

Scrabble (OAK) was in coverage on 486 plays last year, he was thrown to 30 times, of those 30 he allowed just 53% completion.

Last year David Garrard (JAC) suffered through 42 sacks and 47 dropped passes.

Greg Jones (JAC) was one of the best pass protectors in the league last year giving up just 2 pressures in 42 plays.

Derrick Mason (BAL) was one of the NFL's most dependable receivers with 68.4% of passes thrown his way hauled in.

Chad Greenway (MIN) should never be in coverage 84% of passes were completed against him, instead he should be turned loose against the QBs of the world (7 sacks) in 08.

Corey Webster (NYG) allowed just 40% of pass thrown his way to be completed, was thrown to the least in the NFL but still deflected more passes. He is the NFCs newest shutdown corner.

Sheldon Brown (PHI) was thrown to less than Astante Samuel (PHI), allowed less TDs and gave up 12% less completions.

Sack numbers only indicate when a QB is tackled with the ball for a loss behind the LOS, when pressured the ability of a QB falls 37 points (passer rating) effectively. When pressured, Peyton Manning becomes Brad Johnson.

The three best teams last year at preventing pressures from turning to sacks i.e, QBs able to avoid pass rushers once they get off blocks were:
Indianapolis
New Orleans
Denver

Don Vito
09-07-2009, 09:46 PM
Kellen Winslow (TB) Soldiered it up by blocking just 3 times on passing plays in 2008


Quality stuff but thats definitely my favorite.

EdReedUnstoppable
09-07-2009, 09:57 PM
Jared Gaither (BAL) only allowed 3 hits (1 sack) on his QB all season in 08

Because he's the most underrated LT in the NFL!!!!

Jakey
09-07-2009, 09:58 PM
Stats arent everything.

eaglesalltheway
09-07-2009, 10:20 PM
Stats arent everything.

I'm the first one to agree with you on that, but when a Center doesn't give up a single sack all year, that is a good indicator of his pass protection abilities.

I've always believed stats will lead you in the direction of how a player performs, but will only tell you a small piece of the puzzle.

Now, Goodwin gave up no sacks, and some of that can be attirbuted to Brees efficient throwing, and him being deceptively elusive. But Goodwin still deserves a majority of the credit for not allowing a single sack all season.

BlindSite
09-07-2009, 10:22 PM
Stats arent everything.

Indeed, but this thread is better than the cookie cutter "who do you think is..." threads.

BeerBaron
09-07-2009, 10:26 PM
I don't quite understand the Gonzalez one....is that good or bad? What would like, the average for a TE be?

Jakey
09-07-2009, 10:26 PM
Ineed, i just realised my post was a bit of a thread killer XD Soz guys.

On the other hand, concidering the Steelers offence wasnt especially great in any facets...id be interested to see some defensive stats there. Makes you wonder just how much, "defence wins championships."

Oh and good job btw BlindSite!

BlindSite
09-07-2009, 10:28 PM
I don't quite understand the Gonzalez one....is that good or bad? What would like, the average for a TE be?

VD stayed in around 14% of the time, one snap per game for gonzo per game is pretty small for a starting tight end, only K2 had less.

senormysterioso
09-07-2009, 10:34 PM
I'm the first one to agree with you on that, but when a Center doesn't give up a single sack all year, that is a good indicator of his pass protection abilities.

I've always believed stats will lead you in the direction of how a player performs, but will only tell you a small piece of the puzzle.

Now, Goodwin gave up no sacks, and some of that can be attirbuted to Brees efficient throwing, and him being deceptively elusive. But Goodwin still deserves a majority of the credit for not allowing a single sack all season.

Yah it's cool and all, but he's a center! Albert Haynesworth got $100 million because he's a good pass rusher as an interior lineman, that goes to show how rare that skill is. Most teams in the NFL don't have a guy line up right over the center and if they do it's to eat up a double team, because that's what centers do most of the time (double team). Gaither giving up 1 sack as a left tackle and only 3 hits is a billion times more impressive than a center not giving up a sack for a season.

Saints-Tigers
09-07-2009, 10:35 PM
I'm the first one to agree with you on that, but when a Center doesn't give up a single sack all year, that is a good indicator of his pass protection abilities.

I've always believed stats will lead you in the direction of how a player performs, but will only tell you a small piece of the puzzle.

Now, Goodwin gave up no sacks, and some of that can be attirbuted to Brees efficient throwing, and him being deceptively elusive. But Goodwin still deserves a majority of the credit for not allowing a single sack all season.

He really doesn't. He's a decent pass blocker at once. No one outside of Brown and Evans do anything for me as pass blockers to be honest, Brees is insanely elusive in the pocket, and gets the ball out so quick.

I really would like to replace Goodwin a lot.

Calvin & Kevin
09-07-2009, 10:37 PM
Well, the Gonzalez one I read as "Tony Gonzalez had the most passing plays where he ran a route instead of blocking." Which, he being Tony Gonzalez, is perfectly understandable.

eaglesalltheway
09-07-2009, 10:38 PM
Yah it's cool and all, but he's a center! Albert Haynesworth got $100 million because he's a good pass rusher as an interior lineman, that goes to show how rare that skill is. Most teams in the NFL don't have a guy line up right over the center and if they do it's to eat up a double team, because that's what centers do most of the time (double team). Gaither giving up 1 sack as a left tackle and only 3 hits is a billion times more impressive than a center not giving up a sack for a season.

Agreed, especially considering that LTs go up against the elite pass rushers, and Centers do have it relatively easier in pass pro (I played OL). I wouldn't say its a billion times more impressive, because giving up 0 sacks is incredibly impressive, no matter at what position, but being a linemen myself, LTs get most of, if not all, the love, and I'm just giving some to my fellow interior O-linemen.

Also, Haynesworth isn't just an interior pass rusher, he does it all...

Vox Populi
09-07-2009, 10:39 PM
VD stayed in around 14% of the time, one snap per game for gonzo per game is pretty small for a starting tight end, only K2 had less.

I think you'll find that most of the good receiving tight ends are low on the list like Winslow and Gonzalez since they are usually one of the top two reads on any given passing play for their team and those two specifically were probably the most reliable targets on their teams last year and they both line up in the slot quite a bit as well (especially Gonzalez). Most of the passing plays that top tier receiving tight ends block in are probably play action passes or situational passing plays like inside your own 5 or 3 yard line where a sack will probably mean a change of possession and 2 points going to the other team. Kind of a weird stat.

eaglesalltheway
09-07-2009, 10:43 PM
He really doesn't. He's a decent pass blocker at once. No one outside of Brown and Evans do anything for me as pass blockers to be honest, Brees is insanely elusive in the pocket, and gets the ball out so quick.

I really would like to replace Goodwin a lot.

From watching the saints he is pretty much nothing in run blcoking, so I understand wanting to replace him for sure. But I don't care who you are, 0 sacks over a season (didn't he miss a game or two, not sure) even if it is 14 games is impressive, and very few linemen give up 0 sacks over a period of time that long.

As I said, Brees should get credit, and seniormysterioso spoke about the guards around him as factors as well, but also the factor of his competiton should be counted as well, and there aren't many premier interior pass rushing DL in the NFC south for him to go up against, and that plays a role in it as well. But the majority of the credit should go to Goodwin for giving up 0 sacks in that time.

BlindSite
09-07-2009, 11:10 PM
I think you'll find that most of the good receiving tight ends are low on the list like Winslow and Gonzalez since they are usually one of the top two reads on any given passing play for their team and those two specifically were probably the most reliable targets on their teams last year and they both line up in the slot quite a bit as well (especially Gonzalez). Most of the passing plays that top tier receiving tight ends block in are probably play action passes or situational passing plays like inside your own 5 or 3 yard line where a sack will probably mean a change of possession and 2 points going to the other team. Kind of a weird stat.

I think more than anything it's a testament t the changing of teams' aims at the tight end position.

Time was the Tight End was an extra lineman who occasionally trundled a couple of yards into a zone hole and caught a few yard check down on 2nd and short or first and ten.

Nowadays tight end stables usually consist of a good blocker a good receiver and a veteran or developmental prospect the team is trying to improve to replace whomever is older or declining of the other two. With every team bar a few searching for that special guy like Jason Witten (personally I think he's the best in the NFL) who can do both very well.

The stat is either good or bad depending on how you want to look at it. Either you like having an all round tight end, or you're happy to have an extra receiver. Either way it just shows the propensity some coaches have to use players of a certain type in certain situations.

From watching the saints he is pretty much nothing in run blcoking, so I understand wanting to replace him for sure. But I don't care who you are, 0 sacks over a season (didn't he miss a game or two, not sure) even if it is 14 games is impressive, and very few linemen give up 0 sacks over a period of time that long.

From the same article, it points out he tends to get overwhelmed by bigger DT's it pointed out Williams from Minnesota and Kemoeatu from carolina in the run game. Against smaller quicker DT's he had no issues in either facet of the game.

I just found it to be an interesting stat considering his statistical performance was actually comparable to Nick Mangold's last year.

Brent
09-07-2009, 11:10 PM
Pierre Thomas (NO) was stuffed at the line the least of any running back in the NFL
he's my fantasy team's hidden gem for a reason

BlindSite
09-07-2009, 11:20 PM
he's my fantasy team's hidden gem for a reason

It's no wonder how good NYG running game was last year, if memory serves, both their top rushers where above 50% for being stuffed behind the line and within the top 5.

Thomas Jones was also surprisingly good, outside of normal stats, for DVOA and DYAR he was in the top 10.

Portis was like the 2nd best rusher for "effective yards" behind DeAngelo Williams, who had a ridiculously good season in almost every possible category.

The Unseen
09-07-2009, 11:25 PM
When adjusted for Defensive opponent and situation by football outsiders Adrian Peterson ranks as the NFL's 17th best RB last year.

Due to my respect for Football Outsider, this one is very significant in my eyes. How do they calculate that? Everything I know suggests Adrian is a great player - what would make him just a good player like FO suggests? I might research their rationale for that. Fumbles? Good O-line? Although opponent and situation doesn't really imply that they are crediting the O-line.

SuperMcGee
09-07-2009, 11:30 PM
Over the last two seasons, Rian Lindell has not missed a field goal on the road. 31/31, or 32/32 counting the game in Toronto.

At home, he has missed 11 over this same period of time. 22/33 at the Ralph.

Expand it over three years, and there's only one miss on the road with the numbers turning to 42/43.

He has also never missed a PAT on 282 attempts. Pretty sure that makes him the best, though he doesn't have the volume of someone like Elam. Kind of sad when you compare his PAT attempts to someone who has been in the league half as long as he has (Kaeding) or even a third as long (Gostkowski).

wogitalia
09-07-2009, 11:35 PM
Cool thread, got any more? :)

wogitalia
09-07-2009, 11:43 PM
Due to my respect for Football Outsider, this one is very significant in my eyes. How do they calculate that? Everything I know suggests Adrian is a great player - what would make him just a good player like FO suggests? I might research their rationale for that. Fumbles? Good O-line? Although opponent and situation doesn't really imply that they are crediting the O-line.

I dare say a large part of it is the teams we played last year. Colts, Atlanta, New Orleans, Chicago(x2), Detroit(x2), Green Bay(x2) and a couple of others, I'd be surprised if any of them were in the top half of teams against the run which would seriously deflate AD's credit for what he did. We basically played the who's who of bad defensive teams or bad against the run teams.

Which makes how bad our offense actually was all the more scary. On a positive, we also kind of played the who's who of offensive teams and still had a crushing defense, without our star MLB to boot. That's a positive. It also probably goes a long way to explaining the myth that we have/had a great offensive line when we clearly haven't for those watching at home.

diabsoule
09-07-2009, 11:56 PM
I have to say that I love the Saints stats.

BlindSite
09-08-2009, 12:03 AM
Due to my respect for Football Outsider, this one is very significant in my eyes. How do they calculate that? Everything I know suggests Adrian is a great player - what would make him just a good player like FO suggests? I might research their rationale for that. Fumbles? Good O-line? Although opponent and situation doesn't really imply that they are crediting the O-line.

As I understand it it's paired in a big way with the performance of the offensive line.

The adjustments fall into how well he did against certain opponents, in certain situations and how successful he was how often. I think a lot of it has to do with how often he ran for a first down, touchdowns vs turnovers, receiving and things like how good the defenses he faced were and how well he performed therein.


Running backs are ranked according to DYAR, or Defense-adjusted Yards Above Replacement. This gives the value of the performance on plays where this RB carried/caught the ball compared to replacement level, adjusted for situation and opponent and then translated into yardage. DYAR (and its cousin, YAR, which isn't adjusted based on opponent) is further explained here (http://www.footballoutsiders.com/methods#dyar).
The next statistic given is DVOA, or Defense-adjusted Value Over Average. This number represents value, per play, over an average quarterback in the same game situations. The more positive the DVOA rating, the better the player's performance. Negative DVOA represents below-average offense. DVOA (and its cousin, VOA, which isn't adjusted based on opponent) is further explained here (http://www.footballoutsiders.com/methods#dvoa).
Effective Yards, listed in red, translate DVOA into a yards per attempt figure. This provides an easy comparison: in general, players with more Effective Yards than standard yards played better than standard stats would otherwise indicate, while players with fewer Effective Yards than standard yards played worse than standard stats would otherwise indicate. Effective Yards are not the best way to measure total value because they are more dependent on usage than DYAR.
The final statistic is Success Rate. This number represents the player's consistency, measured by successful running plays (the definition of success being different based on down and distance) divided by total running plays. A player with higher DVOA and a low success rate mixes long runs with downs getting stuffed at the line of scrimmage. A player with lower DVOA and a high success rate generally gets the yards needed, but doesn't often get more. Success Rate is further explained here (http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stat-analysis/introducing-running-back-success-rate). It is not adjusted for opponent.
The simple version: DYAR means a running back with more total value. DVOA means a running back with more value per play.
These numbers do not separate the performance of a running back from the performance of his offensive line. (You'll find numbers that try to do that on this page (http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/ol).) Be aware that one will affect the other.
All fumbles are considered equal, whether recovered by the offense or defense.http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/rb

D Williams is number in almost every category except total yards and success rating.

I dare say a large part of it is the teams we played last year. Colts, Atlanta, New Orleans, Chicago(x2), Detroit(x2), Green Bay(x2) and a couple of others, I'd be surprised if any of them were in the top half of teams against the run which would seriously deflate AD's credit for what he did. We basically played the who's who of bad defensive teams or bad against the run teams.


I think a lot of it is that, but Carolina played similar teams, Atlanta, new Orleans and Tampa x2, and GB, Detroit and Chicago x1.

I think the opponents compared head to head is a bit of a wash, moreover. the idea behind the DVOA and DYAR rankings is to remove the bias that the opponent can provide.

It's designed to show whether or not one RB is better than another even if RB1 has 500 yards but faced the top 13 rushing defenses and RB2 has 1500 yards but faced the bottom 13.

the decider13
09-08-2009, 12:09 AM
This is an awesome thread, I sadly don't have anything to contribute. I would have said that Marshall was targeted more times than any receiver last year if that wasn't in the first one.

Saints 4 Lyfe
09-08-2009, 12:10 AM
i for one can attest that Goodwin is average at best. if we could replace him we would.

M.O.T.H.
09-08-2009, 12:20 AM
I hate football outsiders and Mr. KC Joyner.

Flyboy
09-08-2009, 12:24 AM
i for one can attest that Goodwin is average at best. if we could replace him we would.

Bingo, bingo.

he's my fantasy team's hidden gem for a reason

Too bad he like Reggie Bush can hardly seem to stay healthy.

BlindSite
09-08-2009, 12:34 AM
I hate football outsiders and Mr. KC Joyner.

Any particular reasoning?

wogitalia
09-08-2009, 12:36 AM
* These numbers do not separate the performance of a running back from the performance of his offensive line. (You'll find numbers that try to do that on this page.) Be aware that one will affect the other.


I think a lot of it is that, but Carolina played similar teams, Atlanta, new Orleans and Tampa x2, and GB, Detroit and Chicago x1.

I think the opponents compared head to head is a bit of a wash, moreover. the idea behind the DVOA and DYAR rankings is to remove the bias that the opponent can provide.

I dare say the first comment goes a certain ways to explaining the second. They did play similar teams, but any unbiased fan would have to look at Carolina's OL and say it is far better than Minnesota's, which would probably explain why playing similar teams Williams is better.

M.O.T.H.
09-08-2009, 12:52 AM
Any particular reasoning?

Meh, it's all subjective. They're trying to have their own version of sabermetrics in football. But football isnt baseball, it's a lot tougher to be accurate. Baseball has a lot more to do with the indivisual player. They're cute to look at every now and then and some are useful but, some people live by this stuff now and I dont see why. There is just too much going on, on the field to get really accurate conclusions.

Some people love it, some dont. I'm not a big fan.

Saints-Tigers
09-08-2009, 01:06 AM
On TE's like Tony G and Kellen Winslow on passing downs blocking... you guys are saying it like it's a bad thing, I would never have those guys pass blocking... like ever, maybe a chip at most.

BlindSite
09-08-2009, 01:12 AM
Chad Pennington (MIA) is the NFL's all time leader in completion percentage with 66%. For having a noodle arm his Passer rating over 20 yard completions is 91.6

Of Fred Jackson's (BUF) 317 yards receiving in 2008 303 of them came after first contact.

Juqua Parker (PHI) had more QB pressures than all but four other players in the NFL.

Leroy Hill (SEA) missed half as many tackles as Julian Petersen (SEA) and one third as many as Lofa Tatupu (SEA)

Chris Gamble (CAR) was targeted more than any other corner in the NFL (124 times) by allowed only 56.6% of completions (less than Darelle Revis (NYJ) who allowed 58.3%). The 70 completed were for an average of 11.5 yards and only 3.6 YAC. Meaning Gamble allowed just 6.5 yards per attempt. Putting him at 9th best for coverage in the NFL.

Eric Wright (CLE) allowed the longest pass against him to go for 28 yards, better than anyone else in the NFL.

Scrabble (OAK) was in coverage on 486 plays last year, he was thrown to 30 times, of those 30 he allowed just 53% completion.

Last year David Garrard (JAC) suffered through 42 sacks and 47 dropped passes.

Greg Jones (JAC) was one of the best pass protectors in the league last year giving up just 2 pressures in 42 plays.

Derrick Mason (BAL) was one of the NFL's most dependable receivers with 68.4% of passes thrown his way hauled in.

Chad Greenway (MIN) should never be in coverage 84% of passes were completed against him, instead he should be turned loose against the QBs of the world (7 sacks) in 08.

Corey Webster (NYG) allowed just 40% of pass thrown his way to be completed, was thrown to the least in the NFL but still deflected more passes. He is the NFCs newest shutdown corner.

Sheldon Brown (PHI) was thrown to less than Astante Samuel (PHI), allowed less TDs and gave up 12% less completions.

Sack numbers only indicate when a QB is tackled with the ball for a loss behind the LOS, when pressured the ability of a QB falls 37 points (passer rating) effectively. When pressured, Peyton Manning becomes Brad Johnson.

The three best teams last year at preventing pressures from turning to sacks i.e, QBs able to avoid pass rushers once they get off blocks were:
Indianapolis
New Orleans
Denver

BlindSite
09-08-2009, 01:14 AM
Meh, it's all subjective. They're trying to have their own version of sabermetrics in football. But football isnt baseball, it's a lot tougher to be accurate. Baseball has a lot more to do with the indivisual player. They're cute to look at every now and then and some are useful but, some people live by this stuff now and I dont see why. There is just too much going on, on the field to get really accurate conclusions.

Some people love it, some dont. I'm not a big fan.

I always try to use all three facets of a analysis when picking players or teams to focus on, what I see on game day, their basic stats (NFL.com) and the hidden stuff (parts of Outsiders). I don't think outsiders should be a bible, but I think it's a more accurate representation of passers and running backs than raw yardage.

M.O.T.H.
09-08-2009, 01:17 AM
The Gamble one is interesting....it doesnt make a whole lot of sense why he was targeted so much, though. Ken Lucas was right over there.

M.O.T.H.
09-08-2009, 01:18 AM
I always try to use all three facets of a analysis when picking players or teams to focus on, what I see on game day, their basic stats (NFL.com) and the hidden stuff (parts of Outsiders). I don't think outsiders should be a bible, but I think it's a more accurate representation of passers and running backs than raw yardage.

Yeah I can see that. I just get annoyed when people do use it like you said, a bible.

yo123
09-08-2009, 01:23 AM
That Greenway one definitely confirms what my thoughts on him last year. He really struggled in coverage at times.

BlindSite
09-08-2009, 01:26 AM
The Gamble one is interesting....it doesnt make a whole lot of sense why he was targeted so much, though. Ken Lucas was right over there.

Part of me thinks it's because Gamble was moved around a little bit last year, and because having a good running game put a lot of pressure on oppositions to try and move the ball down field through the air.

The final stats don't show it but for a long time last year Carolina was in the top 5 for pass defense, the final weeks where the defense sunk really hurt the overall look of the team. Gamble got big bucks pretty early in the process last year.

Corey Webster really surprised me, I thought the Giants homers were just being homers, but he really was a good CB last year.

Rosebud
09-08-2009, 01:47 AM
Part of me thinks it's because Gamble was moved around a little bit last year, and because having a good running game put a lot of pressure on oppositions to try and move the ball down field through the air.

The final stats don't show it but for a long time last year Carolina was in the top 5 for pass defense, the final weeks where the defense sunk really hurt the overall look of the team. Gamble got big bucks pretty early in the process last year.

Corey Webster really surprised me, I thought the Giants homers were just being homers, but he really was a good CB last year.

We may be homers but we all hated corey webster until he decided to become a great corner, so we were bitter skeptics. But the dude's a stud, he's also a very good player against the run.

7-11
09-08-2009, 02:41 AM
Chad Pennington (MIA) is the NFL's all time leader in passer rating.

Good stuff but i thought that stuck out, Brady and Manning both have higher

Manning - 94.7
Brady - 92.9
Pennington - 90.6

Daunte Culpepper was right up there too till his knee died and Randy didn't love him anymore.

BlindSite
09-08-2009, 02:49 AM
Good stuff but i thought that stuck out, Brady and Manning both have higher

Manning - 94.7
Brady - 92.9
Pennington - 90.6

Daunte Culpepper was right up there too till his knee died and Randy didn't love him anymore.

I think it's a typo from the source, I think Pennington is actually the all time leader for completion % with 66/

Yeah, typo in the source, fixed for accuracy

7-11
09-08-2009, 02:59 AM
I think it's a typo from the source, I think Pennington is actually the all time leader for completion % with 66/

Yeah, typo in the source, fixed for accuracy

Ahh righto, he certainly is, followed by Kurt Warner i'm led to believe whom, barring injury, on November 15 against the Seahawks will have started more games for the Cardinals than the Rams.

Who would've thought!?

Had to add a random fact atleast in one of my posts.

Gay Ork Wang
09-08-2009, 03:04 AM
The three best teams last year at preventing pressures from turning to sacks i.e, QBs able to avoid pass rushers once they get off blocks were:
Indianapolis
New Orleans
Denver

i think this is very interesting for all the fans that said that Cutler mostly had a clean pocket and didnt have to move around a lot/or face a lot of pressure

wogitalia
09-08-2009, 06:20 AM
Chad Greenway (MIN) should never be in coverage 84% of passes were completed against him, instead he should be turned loose against the QBs of the world (7 sacks) in 08.

Something I have noticed is how little the Vikes blitz and how incredibly effective we have been when doing it. Just another element of out ultra conservative approach I guess...

As for Greenway, would be interested to see the general average for Tampa 2 LBs as their job in coverage is to protect the underneath and make the tackle before the first down. I would be interested to see some other LBs numbers on that stat and also what the average YAC and yardage in general is for Greenway as I personally noticed he gives up a lot of catches but very little yardage.

The three best teams last year at preventing pressures from turning to sacks i.e, QBs able to avoid pass rushers once they get off blocks were:
Indianapolis
New Orleans
Denver

First two are obvious, Manning and Brees are notorious for getting it out quick and their ability to avoid the rush, also gives them more credit as both complete a very high % of their passes, which means they are almost certainly completing more passes under pressure than other QBs.

As for Cutler, this would go a long way to explaining why he throws so many picks, perhaps pushing throws out a bit early to avoid sacks, also a credit to him that he gets it out quickly and obviously does a good job avoiding rushers, though I think a large part of this would be having a consistent line in front so that you aren't having to avoid multiple rushers and all 3 of those teams have above average lines.

I also imagine the Vikes were pretty poor on this front, in a large part because you could almost guarantee that someone would be coming in untouched off an edge on every pass play and often their were two guys...

Leroy Hill (SEA) missed half as many tackles as Julian Petersen (SEA) and one third as many as Lofa Tatupu (SEA)

Thats an interesting one. You could throw up that he wasn't in a position to make as many tackles as the other two also, so can really swing that either way, and even a missed tackle will influence a game, whether it be completely blowing it or forcing a player in a different direction/slowing them down.

eaglesalltheway
09-08-2009, 06:40 AM
i think this is very interesting for all the fans that said that Cutler mostly had a clean pocket and didnt have to move around a lot/or face a lot of pressure

I think I remember hearing that though Denver gave up the fewest sacks last year, they also had the most QB pressures or something like that. Another thing Cutler didn't get credit for in Denver... elusiveness. He also is able to get the ball out and make a sack into an incompletion, or a completion isn some cases.

BlindSite
09-08-2009, 06:44 AM
i think this is very interesting for all the fans that said that Cutler mostly had a clean pocket and didnt have to move around a lot/or face a lot of pressure

Yeah, Denver weren't too bad, but they missed a lot of sacks being recorded through cutler's brilliance.

I think I remember hearing that though Denver gave up the fewest sacks last year, they also had the most QB pressures or something like that. Another thing Cutler didn't get credit for in Denver... elusiveness. He also is able to get the ball out and make a sack into an incompletion, or a completion isn some cases.

There are a few teams like that Indianapolis was a middle of the pack team for allowing pressure, but top for allowing sacks, Carolina was bottom three for allowing pressure but I think 9th in Sacks allowed.

There's a few teams out there with a similar situation.

NY+Giants=NYG
09-08-2009, 07:42 AM
Stats arent everything.

I agree! I hate stats so much, and this fantasy football hype now that's taken off isn't helping!

the dude
09-08-2009, 07:52 AM
tony romo had the best qb rating in the 4. quarter with 114,7

kwame harris led the league in false starts with 15 (big surprise)

Sniper
09-08-2009, 08:09 AM
Sheldon Brown (PHI) [/B]was thrown to less than Astante Samuel (PHI), allowed less TDs and gave up 12% less completions.

I'm just sayin'.

BlindSite
09-08-2009, 08:12 AM
that's not even remotely true.



i'm curious if you can quantify "a lot" by anything other than the pressures number. what is being counted as a pressure? is it a pressure if it comes after 6 seconds? or only before 4-5?
Cutler is a big mobile dude who moved around a heck of a lot and avoided would be sacks. If a rusher breaks free and the QB avoids getting dumped on his ass it's a pressure. I'll find the numbers.

bigbluedefense
09-08-2009, 09:05 AM
Good stuff about Corey Webster. I felt he was a top 5 CB in the league last year. He was absolutely dominant.

He's basically a clone to Terrance Newman when Newman was younger and healthy. He has the same game.

Ross on the other hand, had a disappointing season.

brat316
09-08-2009, 09:32 AM
these are some interesting tid bits.

awfullyquiet
09-08-2009, 01:26 PM
Chad Pennington (MIA) is the NFL's all time leader in completion percentage with 66%. For having a noodle arm his Passer rating over 20 yard completions is [B]91.6

This is why I love giving pennington credit, for not having a jamarcus russell like arm, but still able to put the ball where he wants it... over 66% completion rate... and how does that make the team work? a very surprising 11-5, which, as much as it's a resurgent defense, it's completing passes, not having cleo lemon, good 3rd down conversion rates... This is what makes a quarterback, not measurables, not intangibles, just ability to put the biscuit in the basket and make drives happen.


i think i beat you on the stat by like 2 days :)

but, in reality, how do you not put pennington as a top 10 qb in a situation like that... passer rating right behind manning and brady... sure, he make the most in his role, which is slightly unorthodox, but.. i really think he was underrated leaving the jets, and underrated on the dolphins.

bigbluedefense
09-08-2009, 01:30 PM
Ive seen Chad Pennington work his magic the entire time he was with the Jets.

The problem with Chad was he didnt have the arm to survive in Jersey. People just don't understand how hard it is to throw at Giants stadium. Theres a reason why the Jets and Giants have had only Joe Namath and Phil Simms for the past 40 years.

And because of his noodle arm, he couldn't lead your team to a comeback in a 2 minute drill. Put those 2 together, and it just wasn't going to work.


But in Miami, he resurrected his career bc of the weather and he finally was healthy. But even then, he couldnt lead a team when they were down 2 scores in a game. See the Baltimore playoff game as an example.

He's a good qb. But I don't think you can win a championship with him. I like him as a rent-a-qb while your team develops a young guy. Parcells is doing it right in Miami.

eaglesalltheway
09-08-2009, 01:35 PM
no one's arguing that. he said he didn't get credit for it in denver. he got credit for it everywhere, it's not like it was a big secret.

Perhaps bad choice of words for me. In any case, I was emphasizing his mobility and how he is more elusive than a lot of people think. He is by no means a scrambling QB, but has good short area quickness that enables him to avoid tacklers and make plays.

Bengalsrocket
09-08-2009, 01:43 PM
He's a good qb. But I don't think you can win a championship with him. I like him as a rent-a-qb while your team develops a young guy. Parcells is doing it right in Miami.

This or build a team around him. Pennington has many skill sets, if you find a way to emphasis them and hide his weaknesses, then you could easily win a championship with him.

Either way though, I agree that Parcells is doing it right. Regardless of who ultimately becomes the franchise guy down in Miami (they're semi grooming Henne, experimenting with White and it's possible they even draft a guy sometime in the future), Pennington is a -great- filler, I'd take him over 12-16 of the current starting QBs in the league.

awfullyquiet
09-08-2009, 03:12 PM
The problem with Chad was he didnt have the arm to survive in Jersey. People just don't understand how hard it is to throw at Giants stadium. Theres a reason why the Jets and Giants have had only Joe Namath and Phil Simms for the past 40 years.

Manning put up the exact same home/away differential as Pennington, Namath, Simms, Collins...

Comp %
Pennington, home/away: 65.7%, 66.3%
Namath, home/away: 49.1%, 51.1%
Manning, home/away: 54.3%, 57.5%
Simms, home/away: 55.2%, 55.6%
Collins, home/away: 57.2%, 58.5%

all are around 1.5% worse at home than on the road...

Pennington at Miami on the other hand is...
65.9% at home, and 69.2% on the road.

Curious?

I think not. Maybe in the kicking game, where wind velocity is MUCH more an issue (due to wind shear forces acting upon a non aerodynamic object)... in the passing game, i don't believe for a second arm strength is an especially valuable commodity especially at the meadowlands...

BlindSite
09-08-2009, 04:05 PM
no one's arguing that. he said he didn't get credit for it in denver. he got credit for it everywhere, it's not like it was a big secret.



*shrug* this is why stats are worthless. if it's a pressure after 10 seconds, who cares, the qb or wr should've done something already. if it's only a pressure before that, then it's a far more relevant stat. and i'm not arguing it one way or another, or suggesting that the pressure numbers "shouldn't count". but the metrics used would be interesting.

I didn't write the stats, I just gathered them, it's stuff I've had kicking around that was going to be part of a bigger article I don't have time to write.

AS I said to MOTH, Stats, I agree, are just part of the picture.

Halsey
09-08-2009, 04:52 PM
A RB who caused the most misses isn't necessarily the most elusive. RB's with more carries are gonna have more opportunities to make defenders miss.

bigbluedefense
09-08-2009, 07:15 PM
Manning put up the exact same home/away differential as Pennington, Namath, Simms, Collins...

Comp %
Pennington, home/away: 65.7%, 66.3%
Namath, home/away: 49.1%, 51.1%
Manning, home/away: 54.3%, 57.5%
Simms, home/away: 55.2%, 55.6%
Collins, home/away: 57.2%, 58.5%

all are around 1.5% worse at home than on the road...

Pennington at Miami on the other hand is...
65.9% at home, and 69.2% on the road.

Curious?

I think not. Maybe in the kicking game, where wind velocity is MUCH more an issue (due to wind shear forces acting upon a non aerodynamic object)... in the passing game, i don't believe for a second arm strength is an especially valuable commodity especially at the meadowlands...

http://i40.tinypic.com/2ur1rft.jpg

Its easy to throw a high completion percentage when youre throwing 5 yard passes to TEs and RBs half the time.

Ive seen enough of Chad Pennington in the 5 or so years he was in Jersey to know what he is. Ask any Jet fan if you don't believe me.

Stranger
09-08-2009, 07:44 PM
Not hating just a couple of postseason thoughts:


Tom Brady has never lost a home playoff game (8-0)

Kurt Warner has never lost a home playoff game (6-0)

Eli Manning has never won a home playoff game (0-2) but is 3-1 away from home

In nine trips to the postseason Peyton Manning has lost the first playoff game 6 times

Last year was the first time this decade there wasn't a number one seed in the superbowl

Stash
09-08-2009, 10:00 PM
On TE's like Tony G and Kellen Winslow on passing downs blocking... you guys are saying it like it's a bad thing, I would never have those guys pass blocking... like ever, maybe a chip at most.
+1, I don't want a TE blocking on a pass play either.

wogitalia
09-08-2009, 10:06 PM
+1, I don't want a TE blocking on a pass play either.

You basically are saying that between your line and any backs staying in that you have no confidence and require more help. That said, I can understand that a TE who blocks on pass plays more often does make your play action game more dangerous as you can't read off the TE.

Saints 4 Lyfe
09-08-2009, 10:56 PM
tony romo had the best qb rating in the 4. quarter with 114,7

i find that really hard to believe.

BlindSite
09-09-2009, 05:43 AM
A RB who caused the most misses isn't necessarily the most elusive. RB's with more carries are gonna have more opportunities to make defenders miss.


Williams had the 9th most carries in the NFL 103 less than turner and 90 less than Peterson, Stewart had the 28th. Lynch had the 12th.

Williams made more people miss with a hell of a lot less carries.

eaglesalltheway
09-09-2009, 06:50 AM
Williams had the 9th most carries in the NFL 103 less than turner and 90 less than Peterson, Stewart had the 28th. Lynch had the 12th.

Williams made more people miss with a hell of a lot less carries.

Now here is where style of running comes in to play I think. Turner may be called a burner, but he breaks a good deal of tackles as well. I'd like to see the combined totals of missed tackles with broken tackles, unless broken tackles is included in the missed category. If that is the case, the numbers seem very low, and there should be more for many of these runners.

FUNBUNCHER
09-09-2009, 07:19 AM
Ive seen Chad Pennington work his magic the entire time he was with the Jets.

The problem with Chad was he didnt have the arm to survive in Jersey. People just don't understand how hard it is to throw at Giants stadium. Theres a reason why the Jets and Giants have had only Joe Namath and Phil Simms for the past 40 years.

And because of his noodle arm, he couldn't lead your team to a comeback in a 2 minute drill. Put those 2 together, and it just wasn't going to work.


But in Miami, he resurrected his career bc of the weather and he finally was healthy. But even then, he couldnt lead a team when they were down 2 scores in a game. See the Baltimore playoff game as an example.

He's a good qb. But I don't think you can win a championship with him. I like him as a rent-a-qb while your team develops a young guy. Parcells is doing it right in Miami.

If Pennington played in a pure WCO, short dumpoffs to the RBs and FB, intermediate routes to the WRs and TEs, I bet he would rock.

His accuracy, intelligence, field vision and mediocre arm strength are best suited IMO for a Bill Walsh offensive scheme.

LizardState
09-09-2009, 07:49 AM
As I said, Brees should get credit, and seniormysterioso spoke about the guards around him as factors as well, but also the factor of his competiton should be counted as well, and there aren't many premier interior pass rushing DL in the NFC south for him to go up against, and that plays a role in it as well. But the majority of the credit should go to Goodwin for giving up 0 sacks in that time.

I guess that's why the pundits say the Saints have the best passing offense in the league now, by best I think they mean most efficient with regard to less 3 & outs & scoring. The modern NFL is all about pass defense & pass protection, maybe in the salary cap/FA era you can't afford both. Perhaps that's why NO was schizoid, great passing offense but awful secondary & defensing the pass.

Still it's an interesting evolution of the Saints from a running team with former top pick (now unemployed) Deuce McAllister to a passing one beginning with the acquisition of the most beloved by his receivers QB in the NFL, Drew Brees. I think it's b/c he throws one of the most catchable balls in the league, & he brings added value with his game management & team leader skills, that guy is just plain $.

awfullyquiet
09-09-2009, 07:56 AM
Its easy to throw a high completion percentage when youre throwing 5 yard passes to TEs and RBs half the time.

Ive seen enough of Chad Pennington in the 5 or so years he was in Jersey to know what he is. Ask any Jet fan if you don't believe me.

And?

Most fans are as baseless of their opinions as you are.

LETS PLAY A GAME.

Which quarterback career stat line is which: Eli or Pennington

Yards/Attempt: 6.4
Yards/Attempt: 6.3

Yep. So. Same Y/A... and about 10% greater completion rate... what is it? Both were running first teams... in the same stadium. One has CONSIDERABLY more arm strength than the other... Hell, they have around the same pass attempts and about the same number of starts... (although Penningtons Career is a bit longer)... Why?

Tell me BBD, what is it that makes the meadowlands need a qb with such a great arm strength?

the dude
09-09-2009, 01:23 PM
i find that really hard to believe.

and that is what makes it so damn interesting

4th Quarter att 109 com 69 pct 63.3 yards 946 tds 9 ints 1 rating 114.7

http://www.nfl.com/players/tonyromo/situationalstats?id=ROM787981

Rosebud
09-09-2009, 01:48 PM
On the topic of corey webster he also lead the league in PDs with 21.

Whistler6
09-09-2009, 02:05 PM
Not a stat or about NFL players, but interesting "tidbit" nonetheless

BYU reportedly has 26 married players on their football team and 26 players with children. Advantage to be 2-3-4 years older than the rest of your competition? I think so...

BlindSite
09-09-2009, 04:05 PM
Now here is where style of running comes in to play I think. Turner may be called a burner, but he breaks a good deal of tackles as well. I'd like to see the combined totals of missed tackles with broken tackles, unless broken tackles is included in the missed category. If that is the case, the numbers seem very low, and there should be more for many of these runners.

It's both Broken and missed tackles, part of me thinks Williams is so high not just because he's a quick shifty guy but because he's got a nasty stiff arm too.

Not a stat or about NFL players, but interesting "tidbit" nonetheless

BYU reportedly has 26 married players on their football team and 26 players with children. Advantage to be 2-3-4 years older than the rest of your competition? I think so...

I don't know much about BYU but is that the school that has a lot of mormons or former missionaries or something?

the dude
09-09-2009, 06:19 PM
It's both Broken and missed tackles, part of me thinks Williams is so high not just because he's a quick shifty guy but because he's got a nasty stiff arm too.



I don't know much about BYU but is that the school that has a lot of mormons or former missionaries or something?

yeah its a mormon college, they all have to do some missionary work thats why byu players are often a couple of years older when they enter the draft. i think

wogitalia
09-09-2009, 07:57 PM
On the BYU stat, thats kind of cool that you have all those players that are taking care of their families and are still able to compete at such a high level despite some pretty obvious restrictions on recruiting. That's a real credit to the coaching staff.

DMWSackMachine
09-09-2009, 08:00 PM
i find that really hard to believe.

That's because you've swallowed the pill the national media is serving you regarding Romo choking under pressure. If you had actually watched for a second with an unbiased eye you would know that he is one of the very best in the game in pressurized situations. Not sure if this is true, but I saw during a telecast last year that Romo had the most come from behind game winning or tying drives in the NFL since he became a starter.

....and that's why this thread was made. To separate perception from reality.

Saints-Tigers
09-09-2009, 08:16 PM
Can't come back unless you let your team fall behind :P

FUNBUNCHER
09-09-2009, 08:34 PM
That's because you've swallowed the pill the national media is serving you regarding Romo choking under pressure. If you had actually watched for a second with an unbiased eye you would know that he is one of the very best in the game in pressurized situations. Not sure if this is true, but I saw during a telecast last year that Romo had the most come from behind game winning or tying drives in the NFL since he became a starter.

....and that's why this thread was made. To separate perception from reality.

Until Romo translates Pro Bowl regular season stats into key wins in December, he will be considered lacking as a franchise QB.

As the Cowboys main signal caller, the Cowwboys have consistently played below their own and national expectations for some reason. He's talented, but I'm sure many Dallas fans would trade stats for clutch performances and playoff wins.

Thumper
09-09-2009, 08:44 PM
Trent Cole only had nine sacks, he led the league in plays made by an end, stops (tied with Justin Tuck), defeats, and was fourth in the league in hurries. When the opposing team ran to the left side of their line (the right side of the Eagles) Trent Cole shut them down and the Eagles ranked 5th when ran on to the left and 3rd when the other team ran behind their LT. The offense was held to less than 3.31 yards a carry in both categories. Trent Cole has 65 negative plays in 3 and a half seasons of starting. Out of this world from a DE. The only rival to that is Jared Allen with his mind boggling numbers of 79.5 negative plays over the past four years of starting.

wogitalia
09-09-2009, 11:06 PM
Trent Cole only had nine sacks, he led the league in plays made by an end, stops (tied with Justin Tuck), defeats, and was fourth in the league in hurries. When the opposing team ran to the left side of their line (the right side of the Eagles) Trent Cole shut them down and the Eagles ranked 5th when ran on to the left and 3rd when the other team ran behind their LT. The offense was held to less than 3.31 yards a carry in both categories. Trent Cole has 65 negative plays in 3 and a half seasons of starting. Out of this world from a DE. The only rival to that is Jared Allen with his mind boggling numbers of 79.5 negative plays over the past four years of starting.

Great post, he was a really inspired pick for the Eagles. Plus my mullet sporting monster gets a mention. Think playing the run, whilst being an excellent pass rusher is a massively underrated trait of a good DE.

eaglesalltheway
09-09-2009, 11:07 PM
It's both Broken and missed tackles, part of me thinks Williams is so high not just because he's a quick shifty guy but because he's got a nasty stiff arm too.



I don't know much about BYU but is that the school that has a lot of mormons or former missionaries or something?

Alright well nevermind then, lol/

Yup yup.

awfullyquiet
09-10-2009, 08:52 AM
Until Romo translates Pro Bowl regular season stats into key wins in December, he will be considered lacking as a franchise QB.


Really. He pulls a mets. Maybe it's not considered 'choking in the 4th quarter', but he chokes entire games.

Sept-Nov. 66% comp, December, 58.9%

TD/INT ratio Sept-Nov. 67/27, December: 14/19

lets not talk about the fumbles either.

BlindSite
09-10-2009, 07:11 PM
Really. He pulls a mets. Maybe it's not considered 'choking in the 4th quarter', but he chokes entire games.

Sept-Nov. 66% comp, December, 58.9%

TD/INT ratio Sept-Nov. 67/27, December: 14/19

lets not talk about the fumbles either.

Poor, poor romo, he's an adequate quarterback and has at times played extremely well, but he's probably the most hated as well.

All I know is, there's a lot of teams in the NFL who'd rather him than their current starter.

awfullyquiet
09-10-2009, 08:09 PM
Poor, poor romo, he's an adequate quarterback and has at times played extremely well, but he's probably the most hated as well.

All I know is, there's a lot of teams in the NFL who'd rather him than their current starter.

Teams i'd start with:

Browns, Niners, aaaaaand maybe TB.

That's probably it.

M.O.T.H.
09-10-2009, 08:17 PM
lol wut???

yodabear
09-11-2009, 12:17 AM
How about this.......

The Steelers will be favored for every game this season. The Rams will be underdogs every game.

yo123
09-11-2009, 12:20 AM
Teams i'd start with:

Browns, Niners, aaaaaand maybe TB.

That's probably it.

I'd only add Tennessee, Houston, Jacksonville, Carolina, Washington, Miami, Buffalo, Denver, Kansas City, Oakland, Seattle, Minnesota and St. Louis. And I was being generous with some that I didn't name.

awfullyquiet
09-11-2009, 07:38 AM
I'd only add Tennessee, Houston, Jacksonville, Carolina, Washington, Miami, Buffalo, Denver, Kansas City, Oakland, Seattle, Minnesota and St. Louis. And I was being generous with some that I didn't name.

But, most of those teams are 'set' for the most part with their QB's... Minnesota was the closest team i'd put in there followed by Washington, Buffalo and Denver.

I'm going to be honest here, and say, yeah, most teams would probably be like PRO BOWL QB DO WANT. but, when they get their hands on the goods, he won't produce like he does in Dallas.

Take Witten, Roy Williams, and Barber/Jones out of the equation.
Put in Issac Bruce, Vernon Davis and Frank Gore in. Does he look as good?
How about: Javon Walker, Zach Miller and McFadden?
Or: Torry Holt, Troy Williamson, and MJD?
Maybe: Braylon, Cribbs and Jamal Lewis?
Or: Michael Clayton, K2, and Caddy/Ward/Whoever?

Jughead10
09-11-2009, 09:00 AM
As for the Meadowland wind thing. I don't think you neccessarily need a strong armed QB. It would help. Problem is when the wind is really blowing in the Meadowlands, the passing conditions are extremely difficult even if you have a strong arm.

bigbluedefense
09-12-2009, 10:09 AM
And?

Most fans are as baseless of their opinions as you are.

LETS PLAY A GAME.

Which quarterback career stat line is which: Eli or Pennington

Yards/Attempt: 6.4
Yards/Attempt: 6.3

Yep. So. Same Y/A... and about 10% greater completion rate... what is it? Both were running first teams... in the same stadium. One has CONSIDERABLY more arm strength than the other... Hell, they have around the same pass attempts and about the same number of starts... (although Penningtons Career is a bit longer)... Why?

Tell me BBD, what is it that makes the meadowlands need a qb with such a great arm strength?

LMAO. You seriously don't understand the benefits of having a big arm in a windy stadium? Aren't you a Bears fan? Didn't you guys just give up the farm for Jay Cutler? Don't you follow the draft and see scouts drool over arm strength? Seriously, if I need to explain the benefits of a big arm to you then i don't know what to tell you...

And if youre a stat junky, don't waste your time with me either. That stat doesn't account for screen passes. Which btw, the Jets ran a ******** of times during the Pennington era with Curtis Martin and Sanata Moss for considerable gains. The Giants contrarily, are arguably the worst screen pass team in the league and almost never run screens (im hoping that changes this year with Bradshaw getting touches).

But you would know that bc you watched the games right? Oh wait...

vidae
09-12-2009, 10:21 AM
I'd only add Tennessee, Houston, Jacksonville, Carolina, Washington, Miami, Buffalo, Denver, Kansas City, Oakland, Seattle, Minnesota and St. Louis. And I was being generous with some that I didn't name.

Ugh, please no. I'd rather take Cassel 100 times out of a 100. Keep Romo away from KC. :(

bigbluedefense
09-12-2009, 11:33 AM
i'm no romo fan, but that's just stupid.



fyi, in 2008, even though the jets were pretty solid overall on screen pass productivity, they were only gaining 5.9 ypa (http://fifthdown.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/03/30/scientific-football-kris-jenkins-jets-offensive-line-and-screen-pass-proficiency/). so assuming the numbers are similar (and, without actual evidence, it's difficult to assume they were substantially better at them while pennington was there), that's still UNDER the ypa average aq quoted. which makes the above irrelevant at best.

come on bbd, i remember when you had better arguments/insight than this.

it still doesn't account for completion percentage. Chad clearly has a much higher completion percentage, and that factors in when you do a ypa stat.

bc obviously, for a missed pass, you just had an attempt for 0 yards. You can't use ypa as a baseline to show that one qb throws the ball downfield more than the other.

Its an extremely vague stat. It doesn't account for YAC either. Its just not a very good stat to use. Especially when trying to convince me that Chad Pennington throws it downfield as regularly as Eli. Come on now, im not watching the games with a blindfold on.

Anyone who's watched the Jets and Giants play regularly during the Pennington era would agree. There's a reason why Pennington has been benched multiple times in his career.

awfullyquiet
09-12-2009, 12:25 PM
LMAO. You seriously don't understand the benefits of having a big arm in a windy stadium? Aren't you a Bears fan? Didn't you guys just give up the farm for Jay Cutler? Don't you follow the draft and see scouts drool over arm strength? Seriously, if I need to explain the benefits of a big arm to you then i don't know what to tell you...

We gave up the farm because Jay Cutler was significantly better by both production and measurables than any quarterback we had, not because of his arm strength... i mean, ffs, Grossman had an 'arm'. Look at what that did for him... ended up backup in Texas. Would he have been superior in the Meadowlands because of it? Scouts drool over arm strength, in my eyes, the same way baseball scouts drool over velocity. Does it make sense to me? No. Why? Because superior arm strength, while nice, doesn't automatically make you a better passer. People believe you can turn arm strength into accuracy. Arm Strength into Skill. Arm Strength, in a lot of scouts minds, has become the penultimate measurable. And I believe it has in your mind too.

And if youre a stat junky, don't waste your time with me either. That stat doesn't account for screen passes. Which btw, the Jets ran a ******** of times during the Pennington era with Curtis Martin and Sanata Moss for considerable gains. The Giants contrarily, are arguably the worst screen pass team in the league and almost never run screens (im hoping that changes this year with Bradshaw getting touches).

I know that stat doesn't account for screen passes... but you have to be ******* kidding me. You're the one who hasn't watched the Giants over the same time period.

Tiki Barber didn't have 60 receptions a year going deep. Tiki out of the screen was, dangerous, and both Coughlin and Fassel used a lot.

But you would know that bc you watched the games right? Oh wait...

actually. i do watch a lot of games. thanks. that's why i know the above and you don't.

i'm no romo fan, but that's just stupid.


i'd agree. but that's only because i think cassel is a fluke.

bc obviously, for a missed pass, you just had an attempt for 0 yards. You can't use ypa as a baseline to show that one qb throws the ball downfield more than the other.

Its an extremely vague stat. It doesn't account for YAC either. Its just not a very good stat to use. Especially when trying to convince me that Chad Pennington throws it downfield as regularly as Eli. Come on now, im not watching the games with a blindfold on.

Anyone who's watched the Jets and Giants play regularly during the Pennington era would agree. There's a reason why Pennington has been benched multiple times in his career.

Exactly, it doesn't account for YAC. Which is why it IS a fantastic stat to use. I never said he was great at throwing downfield, but what I am saying is, he's as effective in the Meadowlands as any other quarterback, and that superior arm strength isn't necessary to be successful. That's what I've always said. Watch how he plays with Ginn. There's a reason why Pennington has been benched. But it wasn't because of his inability to throw the ball. More that the Jets were bad.

bigbluedefense
09-12-2009, 03:47 PM
We gave up the farm because Jay Cutler was significantly better by both production and measurables than any quarterback we had, not because of his arm strength... i mean, ffs, Grossman had an 'arm'. Look at what that did for him... ended up backup in Texas. Would he have been superior in the Meadowlands because of it? Scouts drool over arm strength, in my eyes, the same way baseball scouts drool over velocity. Does it make sense to me? No. Why? Because superior arm strength, while nice, doesn't automatically make you a better passer. People believe you can turn arm strength into accuracy. Arm Strength into Skill. Arm Strength, in a lot of scouts minds, has become the penultimate measurable. And I believe it has in your mind too.

You drafted Grossman in the 1st round bc he had arm strength. You went after Cutler bc of he is an elite qb with an arm. You didn't go after guys like Matt Cassell and Chad Pennington bc they don't have elite arms. Jerry Angelo is no dummy. He knows a weak armed qb will have a much harder time playing in Chicago. The Jets passed on Leinart bc his arm wouldn't hold up in Jersey. I think the Jets know more about Giants stadium than you do.

Of course you don't need a huge arm to play well in the NFL, but that doesn't mean that its not preferred. The bottom line is a big armed qb can make all the throws, and a weak armed one can't. Football is an athletic sport. It requires measurables such as arm strength. Do you need great measurables to make it in the NFL? No, but it is preferred. Thats why there are 7 rounds in the draft. The top athletes go early. Its why a CB who runs a 4.7 tanks out of the first round. Whether you like it or not, athleticism and measurables dominate the NFL. Its why rookies struggle to adjust to "NFL speed". Its why a big armed qb can throw into tighter windows than a weak armed one.

People don't believe you can turn arm strength into accuracy. What they do believe in, is that guys with bigger arms have higher ceilings than guys with weaker ones. And they are right.

I know that stat doesn't account for screen passes... but you have to be ******* kidding me. You're the one who hasn't watched the Giants over the same time period.

Tiki Barber didn't have 60 receptions a year going deep. Tiki out of the screen was, dangerous, and both Coughlin and Fassel used a lot.

A checkdown route and a screen pass are 2 different plays. Eli never played for Fassel. We rarely ever run screen plays under Coughlin.

actually. i do watch a lot of games. thanks. that's why i know the above and you don't.

I don't watch Giants and Jets games living in New Jersey? That was cute.

But I guess maybe Eli must have played for Fassel during the time I wasn't watching the Giants. My bad. Oops.

Exactly, it doesn't account for YAC. Which is why it IS a fantastic stat to use. I never said he was great at throwing downfield, but what I am saying is, he's as effective in the Meadowlands as any other quarterback, and that superior arm strength isn't necessary to be successful. That's what I've always said. Watch how he plays with Ginn. There's a reason why Pennington has been benched. But it wasn't because of his inability to throw the ball. More that the Jets were bad.

The Jets were bad bc they benched a good qb? Riiight. Qbs don't get benched for playing well. Use your brain.

If he was soo effective for the Jets, they wouldve never tried using every opportunity imagineable to replace him. He was much better before his surgeries, but after the injuries, the guy just couldn't throw it in Jersey anymore. Pre shoulder injury Chad was a damn good qb, but after the surgeries, he just couldn't do it anymore.

Its why they got rid of him. Its why Miami will get rid of him after this year. He's a caretaker qb until Henne (who has a big arm by the way) gets up to speed. The Dolphins don't even hide that notion. They're very open about it.

And btw, I never said he was awful. I just said he is what he is. Im spot on with my analysis of him. He can manage a game, but if you need him to come from behind down 2 touchdowns with 8 or so minutes left in the game, he can't do it like other qbs can. Bc the guy is gonna dink and dunk for 7 minutes just to get 1 TD.

And you can't win a championship with a qb who can't do a 2 minute drill. So yeah, I take nothing back of what I said of him.

awfullyquiet
09-12-2009, 05:39 PM
You drafted Grossman in the 1st round bc he had arm strength. You went after Cutler bc of he is an elite qb with an arm. You didn't go after guys like Matt Cassell and Chad Pennington bc they don't have elite arms. Jerry Angelo is no dummy. He knows a weak armed qb will have a much harder time playing in Chicago. The Jets passed on Leinart bc his arm wouldn't hold up in Jersey. I think the Jets know more about Giants stadium than you do.

I drafted? I get paid by the Bears to draft ****** quarterbacks? NO WAY.

Man, I should be even richer than I already am.

I didn't like the Grossman pick. I wouldn't have gone after Cassell because he's a chump. I like how you're privy to every detail on the WHY front offices passed on certain players.

Of course you don't need a huge arm to play well in the NFL, but that doesn't mean that its not preferred. The bottom line is a big armed qb can make all the throws, and a weak armed one can't. Football is an athletic sport. It requires measurables such as arm strength. Do you need great measurables to make it in the NFL? No, but it is preferred. Thats why there are 7 rounds in the draft. The top athletes go early. Its why a CB who runs a 4.7 tanks out of the first round. Whether you like it or not, athleticism and measurables dominate the NFL. Its why rookies struggle to adjust to "NFL speed". Its why a big armed qb can throw into tighter windows than a weak armed one.

Sure. But it's only great if you can throw into a tighter window, if you could actually pass it in there... There's a difference between one that can make 'all of the throws' and one who can't... I'm there's a lot of quarterbacks, even with strong arms, who can't make all the throws? why? because the have ZERO precision. I think you're under the impression I'm a moron. Athleticism doesn't equate to arm strength. Skill doesn't equate to arm strength. Top athletes go early, no kidding, tell me something I don't know. But for the love god, why do we talk about QBs who bust all the time? QB's with great measurables, QB's with great arms that just, for the most part, suck balls... Why? Because it's been told time and time again, that the measurables that we look at aren't the key to success in the NFL... Sure, they're great, but they don't always translate into success in the "NFL speed".

People don't believe you can turn arm strength into accuracy. What they do believe in, is that guys with bigger arms have higher ceilings than guys with weaker ones. And they are right.

And they're right. They're taking a craps shoot on their ability of their QB coach and to turn a mechanically unsound QB with accuracy issues into a QB without accuracy issues. How many QB's have we seen in our lifetime reach that 'high ceiling'. Few. Betting on a high ceiling is a joke. What people don't talk about is the Floors of these QBs. Most teams who are in need of a QB don't need one with the highest ceiling, especially in the top 5 picks, but the ones who are the most NFL ready. Watch the differences between Matt Ryan and Joe Flacco this year. Watch how much Stafford produces this year... The major difference between 'then' and 'now' is the patience and the cost of QBs. Now is not the time to waste 90mil and a first round pick on something that's not a sure bet. And what do you know? THEY DO IT ALL THE TIME. Arm Strength does not guarantee survival in the NFL, the Meadowlands, or Soldier field. If so, with my first pick, you'd see Michael Vick, Jamarcus Russel, Kyle Boller, and Ryan Leaf as my first 4 picks as a franchise in need of a QB.[/quote]

A checkdown route and a screen pass are 2 different plays. Eli never played for Fassel. We rarely ever run screen plays under Coughlin.

I'm not talking Eli specifically here, I'm talking the giants, the Giants of New Jersey Meadowlands. And the fact that... Kerry Collins had a good, strong arm... Wait. I mentioned... how many QB's? Like, 7. From the last 40 years? Hmmm...

I don't watch Giants and Jets games living in New Jersey? That was cute.

I thought they were the new york giants. BURRRRRRN.

But I guess maybe Eli must have played for Fassel during the time I wasn't watching the Giants. My bad. Oops.

I'd like to consistantly make jokes about the inability of Eli, but, no, the world doesn't revolve around his godliness.

The Jets were bad bc they benched a good qb? Riiight. Qbs don't get benched for playing well. Use your brain.

Hi. Welcome to team sports 101. There's 12 other people you can blame for someones lack of performance in this situation, I wouldn't put everything on the 'incompetence' of pennington. Sure, he looked bad. He looked real bad. The teams weren't good, they had a young quarterback who was developmental, might as well see if it changed. And guess what. Kellens has considerably better arm strength. Did anything change? Nope. They still sucked. L2Compare.

If he was soo effective for the Jets, they wouldve never tried using every opportunity imagineable to replace him. He was much better before his surgeries, but after the injuries, the guy just couldn't throw it in Jersey anymore. Pre shoulder injury Chad was a damn good qb, but after the surgeries, he just couldn't do it anymore.

Hey. December 28th. 2008. Miami at NYJ.
Wind Speeds of up to 26 mph in East Rutherford, NJ.
Chad Pennington

22/30. 200 yards. 2 TD, long of 44 yards. To clinch the AFC East.

Yep. He can't play in the Meadowlands anymore. Not after that shoulder surgery, and spending time in balmy, but rainy, Miami, sipping cool Bahama Breezes and appearing in all those Citizen Watch ads... Wait. no... That's not the case.

Its why they got rid of him. Its why Miami will get rid of him after this year. He's a caretaker qb until Henne (who has a big arm by the way) gets up to speed. The Dolphins don't even hide that notion. They're very open about it.

Yeah. Totally. By the time Henne is ready (if he is... I mean, they did draft a QB in the second round... Wait? Not named kevin kolb?)... I'm pretty sure he'll be about 35, Peyton Manning will be 35 by then too.. Wait... They already drafted his replacement in Curtis Painter? Some dude I thought'd be a star? They're giving him 3 years to develop and work out his accuracy issues? Wait. He doesn't have accuracy issues? He just had ****** receivers at Purdue?

And btw, I never said he was awful. I just said he is what he is. Im spot on with my analysis of him. He can manage a game, but if you need him to come from behind down 2 touchdowns with 8 or so minutes left in the game, he can't do it like other qbs can. Bc the guy is gonna dink and dunk for 7 minutes just to get 1 TD.

I never said he was 'god'. I'm trying to tell you you don't need arm strength to succeed in the Meadowlands. You say you do. I'm giving you examples of why you don't.

And you can't win a championship with a qb who can't do a 2 minute drill. So yeah, I take nothing back of what I said of him.

To this, I direct you to the following:

Lucky Ass David Tyree Catch.

And.

SEVEN. fourth quarter comebacks by Pennington. Sure, it's not a Manning (of Peyton), like number, but, it certainly isn't a terrible statistic.

Anyway, I'd rather have QB's who put a game away in the fourth quarter than have to in the last 2 minutes. Just an observation.

Rosebud
09-12-2009, 06:21 PM
Poor, poor romo, he's an adequate quarterback and has at times played extremely well, but he's probably the most hated as well.

All I know is, there's a lot of teams in the NFL who'd rather him than their current starter.

I wouldn't say he's the most hated, he's a good person and a lot of people respect him for that, he's also a good QB and a lot of people respect him for that, neither of those mean he isn't over-rated as a QB and that's where people who have beef with them come from.

XxXdragonXxX
09-12-2009, 07:23 PM
I'd only add Tennessee, Houston, Jacksonville, Carolina, Washington, Miami, Buffalo, Denver, Kansas City, Oakland, Seattle, Minnesota and St. Louis. And I was being generous with some that I didn't name.

No thank you.

Shiver
09-12-2009, 08:43 PM
I'd only add Tennessee, Houston, Jacksonville, Carolina, Washington, Miami, Buffalo, Denver, Kansas City, Oakland, Seattle, Minnesota and St. Louis. And I was being generous with some that I didn't name.

There are eight teams I count that would be better off with their guy over Romo:

New England
New Orleans
Indy
San Diego
Atlanta
Pittsburgh
Baltimore
Green Bay

That's about it, all the other teams would gladly take him.

BlindSite
09-12-2009, 09:39 PM
There are eight teams I count that would be better off with their guy over Romo:

New England
New Orleans
Indy
San Diego
Atlanta
Pittsburgh
Baltimore
Green Bay

That's about it, all the other teams would gladly take him.

I'd add chicago and the giants to the list.

Sniper
09-12-2009, 11:02 PM
That's about it, all the other teams would gladly take him.

Philly wouldn't.

Shiver
09-12-2009, 11:08 PM
McNabb is getting up there in age and Romo has been just as productive.

Shiver
09-12-2009, 11:08 PM
I'd add chicago and the giants to the list.

They would, but they would be wrong in that assessment.

scottyboy
09-12-2009, 11:09 PM
There are eight teams I count that would be better off with their guy over Romo:

New England
New Orleans
Indy
San Diego
Atlanta
Pittsburgh
Baltimore
Green Bay

That's about it, all the other teams would gladly take him.

We know you hate Eli and the Giants but...really?

scottyboy
09-12-2009, 11:11 PM
They would, but they would be wrong in that assessment.

you're right, you know more than those teams, coaches and scouts. I'm glad we cemented this fact.

I mean, I'd much rather have Romo than Eli. WHY ISN'T ELI OUR HOLDER? WHY HASN'T HE FUMBLED A SNAP? DAMMIT!

all he got our team is that heavy, uncomfortable ring on their fingers. damn you Eli

Shiver
09-12-2009, 11:11 PM
Hate is such a strong word. And I don't hate the Giants team, they have a lot of players I wish we had. Umenyiora, Tuck, Ross, Snee, etc. etc. I just do not think Eli Manning is as good as Tony Romo. (flame war upcoming) There is no empirical reason why Eli Manning is better.

scottyboy
09-12-2009, 11:13 PM
Hate is such a strong word. And I don't hate the Giants team, they have a lot of players I wish we had. Umenyiora, Tuck, Ross, Snee, etc. etc. I just do not think Eli Manning is as good as Tony Romo. (flame war upcoming) There is no empirical reason why Eli Manning is better.

it is, I didn't mean it like that, I through hate around too much, BUT

the way you made the "well, they're wrong" argument with Romo andEli is just silly. Romo very well may be a better QB, but to say the Giants would be wrong in keeping Eli instead of having Romo is just plain old silly.

Shiver
09-12-2009, 11:16 PM
I say in a world where you could make a swap like that without worrying about extracurricular things (salary cap, media coverage, etc.) I think they would be better off making that trade; and they as an organization might think the same way.

FUNBUNCHER
09-12-2009, 11:24 PM
After that SB run by Eli and the Giants, it's hard to write him off as a JAG QB, because we as fans have seen in crunch time that Eli has a reservoir of greatness he can tap into, unlike Romo thus far.

I think in some ways Romo is a better statistical QB than Romo, yet I'm almost certain if Romo was the QB of that SB team, the Giants never would have made it to the championship game.

awfullyquiet
09-13-2009, 07:53 AM
Hate is such a strong word. And I don't hate the Giants team, they have a lot of players I wish we had. Umenyiora, Tuck, Ross, Snee, etc. etc. I just do not think Eli Manning is as good as Tony Romo. (flame war upcoming) There is no empirical reason why Eli Manning is better.

There's no Emperical reason why Matt Ryan is better.

Yet you chose to include him in that list.

Nice going shivs.

Draft King
09-13-2009, 09:50 AM
There's no Emperical reason why Matt Ryan is better.

Yet you chose to include him in that list.

Nice going shivs.

He put Flacco and Ryan because of the promise they showed after only 1 season of NFL football. I guarantee Ryan will have better stats than Manning this year and probably not Flacco quite yet but soon.

awfullyquiet
09-13-2009, 10:14 AM
He put Flacco and Ryan because of the promise they showed after only 1 season of NFL football. I guarantee Ryan will have better stats than Manning this year and probably not Flacco quite yet but soon.

Bingo.

I mean, I disagree with Shivs fundamentally on the quality of the upgrade for the teams (mostly because i underrate Romo's ability). But, the fact of the matter is, why wouldn't he put detroit on that list? or oakland, or the jets? i mean, they, too, like the ravens and falcons, have spent lots of money on a quarterbacks in the past 3 years... I bet if this was last year, Shiv wouldn't have put the Broncos on that list...

Draft King
09-13-2009, 10:18 AM
Bingo.

I mean, I disagree with Shivs fundamentally on the quality of the upgrade for the teams (mostly because i underrate Romo's ability). But, the fact of the matter is, why wouldn't he put detroit on that list? or oakland, or the jets? i mean, they, too, like the ravens and falcons, have spent lots of money on a quarterbacks in the past 3 years... I bet if this was last year, Shiv wouldn't have put the Broncos on that list...

I'm assuming because Stafford and Sanchez have yet to prove anything yet in the NFL, if they play as well as Flacco and Ryan they would make the list as well. The Raiders is obvious, Russell has looked like a complete bust is thus far and has to prove otherwise this season. I can't vouch for that Broncos comment so who knows.

Job
09-13-2009, 10:30 AM
I disagree on Jamarcus looking like a complete bust. Everyone knew the guy was raw coming out of college, and he has shown steady improvement since he came out. He's nowhere near elite yet, but he still shows promise and has a lot of time left to improve.

awfullyquiet
09-13-2009, 11:07 AM
I'm just showing inconcistancy in Shiv's statement by saying, what have these guys done to prove themselves? One season, but those aformentioned (by me) were considered better prospects than Flacco or Ryan.

Saints-Tigers
09-13-2009, 12:23 PM
Vernon Davis was named a captain for the 49ers. Could be a good sign.

MichaelJordanEberle (sabf)
09-13-2009, 10:28 PM
The three best teams last year at preventing pressures from turning to sacks i.e, QBs able to avoid pass rushers once they get off blocks were:
Indianapolis
New Orleans
Denver


:sigh:

He was good at that :(

bigbluedefense
09-15-2009, 01:38 PM
I drafted? I get paid by the Bears to draft ****** quarterbacks? NO WAY.

Man, I should be even richer than I already am.

I didn't like the Grossman pick. I wouldn't have gone after Cassell because he's a chump. I like how you're privy to every detail on the WHY front offices passed on certain players.



Sure. But it's only great if you can throw into a tighter window, if you could actually pass it in there... There's a difference between one that can make 'all of the throws' and one who can't... I'm there's a lot of quarterbacks, even with strong arms, who can't make all the throws? why? because the have ZERO precision. I think you're under the impression I'm a moron. Athleticism doesn't equate to arm strength. Skill doesn't equate to arm strength. Top athletes go early, no kidding, tell me something I don't know. But for the love god, why do we talk about QBs who bust all the time? QB's with great measurables, QB's with great arms that just, for the most part, suck balls... Why? Because it's been told time and time again, that the measurables that we look at aren't the key to success in the NFL... Sure, they're great, but they don't always translate into success in the "NFL speed".



And they're right. They're taking a craps shoot on their ability of their QB coach and to turn a mechanically unsound QB with accuracy issues into a QB without accuracy issues. How many QB's have we seen in our lifetime reach that 'high ceiling'. Few. Betting on a high ceiling is a joke. What people don't talk about is the Floors of these QBs. Most teams who are in need of a QB don't need one with the highest ceiling, especially in the top 5 picks, but the ones who are the most NFL ready. Watch the differences between Matt Ryan and Joe Flacco this year. Watch how much Stafford produces this year... The major difference between 'then' and 'now' is the patience and the cost of QBs. Now is not the time to waste 90mil and a first round pick on something that's not a sure bet. And what do you know? THEY DO IT ALL THE TIME. Arm Strength does not guarantee survival in the NFL, the Meadowlands, or Soldier field. If so, with my first pick, you'd see Michael Vick, Jamarcus Russel, Kyle Boller, and Ryan Leaf as my first 4 picks as a franchise in need of a QB.



I'm not talking Eli specifically here, I'm talking the giants, the Giants of New Jersey Meadowlands. And the fact that... Kerry Collins had a good, strong arm... Wait. I mentioned... how many QB's? Like, 7. From the last 40 years? Hmmm...



I thought they were the new york giants. BURRRRRRN.



I'd like to consistantly make jokes about the inability of Eli, but, no, the world doesn't revolve around his godliness.



Hi. Welcome to team sports 101. There's 12 other people you can blame for someones lack of performance in this situation, I wouldn't put everything on the 'incompetence' of pennington. Sure, he looked bad. He looked real bad. The teams weren't good, they had a young quarterback who was developmental, might as well see if it changed. And guess what. Kellens has considerably better arm strength. Did anything change? Nope. They still sucked. L2Compare.



Hey. December 28th. 2008. Miami at NYJ.
Wind Speeds of up to 26 mph in East Rutherford, NJ.
Chad Pennington

22/30. 200 yards. 2 TD, long of 44 yards. To clinch the AFC East.

Yep. He can't play in the Meadowlands anymore. Not after that shoulder surgery, and spending time in balmy, but rainy, Miami, sipping cool Bahama Breezes and appearing in all those Citizen Watch ads... Wait. no... That's not the case.



Yeah. Totally. By the time Henne is ready (if he is... I mean, they did draft a QB in the second round... Wait? Not named kevin kolb?)... I'm pretty sure he'll be about 35, Peyton Manning will be 35 by then too.. Wait... They already drafted his replacement in Curtis Painter? Some dude I thought'd be a star? They're giving him 3 years to develop and work out his accuracy issues? Wait. He doesn't have accuracy issues? He just had ****** receivers at Purdue?



I never said he was 'god'. I'm trying to tell you you don't need arm strength to succeed in the Meadowlands. You say you do. I'm giving you examples of why you don't.



To this, I direct you to the following:

Lucky Ass David Tyree Catch.

And.

SEVEN. fourth quarter comebacks by Pennington. Sure, it's not a Manning (of Peyton), like number, but, it certainly isn't a terrible statistic.

Anyway, I'd rather have QB's who put a game away in the fourth quarter than have to in the last 2 minutes. Just an observation.

wow. this post had all kinds of fail in it.

my favorite part was how you mentioned they are the New York Giants, and took a jab at how I mentioned how i watch them every week living in Jersey. Bc you know, its not like the stadium is in Jersey....

Or that Jersey gets all the Giant games on TV...

Gay Ork Wang
09-15-2009, 02:03 PM
wow. this post had all kinds of fail in it.

my favorite part was how you mentioned they are the New York Giants, and took a jab at how I mentioned how i watch them every week living in Jersey. Bc you know, its not like the stadium is in Jersey....

Or that Jersey gets all the Giant games on TV...
u do know that it was a joke...

bigbluedefense
09-15-2009, 02:06 PM
u do know that it was a joke...

doesn't matter, there are so many things i could attack in that post but its not worth the time.

we're just wasting bandwidth.

she seems to be a stat lover, so we're naturally gonna disagree on a lot of things, seeing that i hate stats in football.

awfullyquiet
09-15-2009, 02:26 PM
doesn't matter, there are so many things i could attack in that post but its not worth the time.

we're just wasting bandwidth.

she seems to be a stat lover, so we're naturally gonna disagree on a lot of things, seeing that i hate stats in football.

Because stats tell you nothing about how a game is played? How players play?
Man, that Eli Manning's stats are awful, but he's so good as a QB.

I'm not a stat lover by any stretch of imagination. I'm passionate about the offensive line and defensive line play of teams, what stats do you use with that? Not much. I like integrating stats into thoughts to at least provide numerical context to what I say. I understand that stats in football are not like stats in baseball, that the possibilities of the game are more along the lines of 11! than the 18 possible end scenarios of a pitch event (k, strikeout, popup, ground ball, flyball, line drive, bloop, ball, walk, hit batsman, passed ball, wild pitch, foul, balk, pinch hit, relief pitching, home run, ground rule double, and rain delay). I realize that stats are the bane of your existence, but you're also trying to prove to me that you're more knowledgeable than I am in a purely subjective matter. I'm trying to add some more concrete proof of my correctness at your commonly held fallacy. Can't fault me in that.

As far as being sarcastic about you watching jets and giants game. That's my intention to be sarcastic, but to call my post 'all sorts of fail' is indeed a bunch of ****.

You give this line.

Hey. December 28th. 2008. Miami at NYJ.
Wind Speeds of up to 26 mph in East Rutherford, NJ.
Chad Pennington

22/30. 200 yards. 2 TD, long of 44 yards. To clinch the AFC East.

I don't know if you watched that game. Pennington. Threw. Into. The. Wind.

And did just fine. THROWING. INTO. THE. WIND.

Sure, I'll concede that having a great arm will allow you to throw much further in the wind. But, no one's throwing 40 yards in 30mph wind anyway, because there's NO accuracy and it becomes a jump ball. How many games where the wind is over 35 mph do you see tons of passing? Ask the Steelers. Ask the Bears. Ask the Browns. So, having that 'arm' to pass in windy conditions are moot. In 10-20mph winds, Pennington could excel, in 25mph conditions, no one really has any better shot when you're throwing a .9 pound ball 40 yards with a 30 mph wind coming from the corner of an endzone or from one of the sidelines...

That's not stats. That's physics.

bigbluedefense
09-15-2009, 02:42 PM
Because stats tell you nothing about how a game is played? How players play?
Man, that Eli Manning's stats are awful, but he's so good as a QB.

I'm not a stat lover by any stretch of imagination. I'm passionate about the offensive line and defensive line play of teams, what stats do you use with that? Not much. I like integrating stats into thoughts to at least provide numerical context to what I say. I understand that stats in football are not like stats in baseball, that the possibilities of the game are more along the lines of 11! than the 18 possible end scenarios of a pitch event (k, strikeout, popup, ground ball, flyball, line drive, bloop, ball, walk, hit batsman, passed ball, wild pitch, foul, balk, pinch hit, relief pitching, home run, ground rule double, and rain delay). I realize that stats are the bane of your existence, but you're also trying to prove to me that you're more knowledgeable than I am in a purely subjective matter. I'm trying to add some more concrete proof of my correctness at your commonly held fallacy. Can't fault me in that.

As far as being sarcastic about you watching jets and giants game. That's my intention to be sarcastic, but to call my post 'all sorts of fail' is indeed a bunch of ****.

You give this line.



I don't know if you watched that game. Pennington. Threw. Into. The. Wind.

And did just fine. THROWING. INTO. THE. WIND.

Sure, I'll concede that having a great arm will allow you to throw much further in the wind. But, no one's throwing 40 yards in 30mph wind anyway, because there's NO accuracy and it becomes a jump ball. How many games where the wind is over 35 mph do you see tons of passing? Ask the Steelers. Ask the Bears. Ask the Browns. So, having that 'arm' to pass in windy conditions are moot. In 10-20mph winds, Pennington could excel, in 25mph conditions, no one really has any better shot when you're throwing a .9 pound ball 40 yards with a 30 mph wind coming from the corner of an endzone or from one of the sidelines...

That's not stats. That's physics.

omg, you still won't let it go?

first off, every stat in football doesn't tell the whole story, so while i understand using stats to make a point, its shakey at best considering any stat doesn't take into consideration scheme, line play, skill position talent, miscommunication on routes, etc.

to throw YPA stats at me like its the gospel is pretty foolish.

i never said i know more about football than you, but I do know I know more about Chad Pennington than you. Theres a difference. I watched him every sunday for 5 plus years. You seen him once a season (at best) for the past 5+ years.

Yes, I did watch that game. Funny you mention it. Bc both qbs looked pretty awful in that game. Pennington just happened to suck less. He had a couple of open WRs down field and missed them. He shouldve had 300 yards easy. The Jets gave him the deep ball all day.

You know why? BC HE CANT THROW IT. Mangini knew it. He coached the guy.

I'll give you a specific example. They ran 1 wildcat play where Chad threw to a wide open WR downfield and missed him completely. That right there wouldve sealed the game. But he screwed it up. Luckily Brett gave them the game.

They only won 24-17 after Brett threw 3 INTs, 1 for a TD btw. Chad was the same old Chad he always was in Jersey. His stat line made him look sooo much better than how he really played.

You act like Im saying Chad sucks. Chad doesn't suck, but he's not a qb you can win a SB with. Thats all there is to it.

If you want a caretaker qb who will do a decent job while you build your team for the future, go ahead and get Chad. But if you want a legit chance at the SB, you need a qb who can run a 2 minute drill.

CC.SD
09-15-2009, 03:46 PM
Chad can throw into the wind just fine, it's just that it comes back and hits him in the face sometimes.

awfullyquiet
09-15-2009, 03:50 PM
tball than you, but I do know I know more about Chad Pennington than you. Theres a difference. I watched him every sunday for 5 plus years. You seen him once a season (at best) for the past 5+ years.

Welcome to 2009. I wrote a huge TL DR in that I have the power of the internets to help me record every game. Ever. So. To say I haven't watched a TON of games is incredibly naive. I decided to cut down of every team i watch on a regular basis, how i have tv feeds from most games over the past 8 years... blah blah blah tldr.


Yes, I did watch that game. Funny you mention it. Bc both qbs looked pretty awful in that game. Pennington just happened to suck less. He had a couple of open WRs down field and missed them. He shouldve had 300 yards easy. The Jets gave him the deep ball all day.

Do you understand what your saying? The jets gave him the deep ball, and he connected with Fasano and Ginn in the end zone for 20+ yards on each toss. He can't throw deep, BUT HE DID. That's what I don't get, I'm using empirical evidence, and you're trying to discount the events of the game? I remember the Wildcat play where Ronnie pitched the ball to Chad, Chad put it up to Ricky Williams... Ricky also didn't give him any favors on that play either... Didn't pay close attention to where the ball was and the play at hand. Subsequently, the ball followed where Ricky should have been, and ricky kept running. Second Quarter, Pennington went deep right and delivered the ball to Ginn in the end zone. Deep. Right. Up until that point (fyi, i got out my game binder so i'm not just rattling off what i remember), there were 3 short pass incompletions on two quick routes and one dumpoff pass. There were 5 short-mid range passes in the second quarter, and then when they went no huddle with about 4 minutes left to keep the tempo up, he hits 3 passes in a row, finishing with Ginn on a post route to the endzone. Yes, he threw it all 27 yards. In the wind. Then there was the Fleaflicker to Ginn down the middle that, i think he threw for 40 yards. Ginn got an extra 4 yards as he was coming down. And then again he went to Fasano who made a spetacular catch in the end zone. For 20 yards.

Most of his incompletions were under ten yards (5 of the 8 were under ten yards). He had 3 deep completions. Missed 3 times deep (one on that aformentioned wildcat play). So, he threw 50% on the deep ball. Not too bad.

They only won 24-17 after Brett threw 3 INTs, 1 for a TD btw. Chad was the same old Chad he always was in Jersey. His stat line made him look sooo much better than how he really played.

They actually only had 7 points off of an interception. His first interception, The fins stalled through 6 minutes on the clock, gaining 55 yards, and punting. Merlin took one back for 6 in the second. His third pick came in the 4th giving the dolphins time to run the clock out with 5 minutes, they punt with under a minute to go.

You act like Im saying Chad sucks. Chad doesn't suck, but he's not a qb you can win a SB with. Thats all there is to it.

If you want a caretaker qb, go ahead and get Chad. But if you want a legit chance at the SB, you need a qb who can run a 2 minute drill.

Why the 2 minute drill? I think that's arbitrary to the case. Sure, it's nice. But, i'd take 4th quarter comebacks over 2 minute drills any day. I also disagree that you need to have a QB who's great at 2 minute drills to have a legit chance at the superbowl. Sure, the last 2 of 3 games were close, and were decided in the last 5 minutes, not in the last 2 minutes. The last 2 minutes of the aformentioend Giants victory over the Patriots, were actually watching Tom Brady, the master of the 2 minute drill, not pull one off. So. I don't know how valid that nugget of information you choose to impart on the impressionable masses is... but, it's wrong.