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View Full Version : Ben Roethlisberger and the Steelers' pass catchers are for real, yo.


Halsey
09-11-2009, 01:53 AM
Anyone who can't see that the Steelers are a 'passing team' right now is blind, because it sure isn't the running game that's moving the chains for their offense. To me it looks like Big Ben and his pass catchers are carrying an unremarkable O-line and RB's. If the Steelers get their running game going, look out.

tjsunstein
09-11-2009, 01:56 AM
Does this really need a thread? Seriously? Or can it go in the week 1 discussion thread?

Halsey
09-11-2009, 02:04 AM
Does this really need a thread? Seriously? Or can it go in the week 1 discussion thread?

Do you need an account? Seriously? Or can you just shut your yapper!

Nah, i'm just I bsing. It probably doesn't need a thread. Maybe I should have made it a debate over whether Hines Ward is a first ballot HoFer. Did you see the way he jacked up that Titans' DB? It's too bad we'll never see him and Polamalu face each other.

vidae
09-11-2009, 02:05 AM
The Titans played the run extremely well. When they (the Steelers) face a team with a suspect rush defense, I think you will see them run more.

diabsoule
09-11-2009, 02:51 AM
Thread lock. Go!

Shahin
09-11-2009, 02:52 AM
Thread lock. Go!
i'm in!..............

niel89
09-11-2009, 04:40 AM
lock plz?


hjlkjg

JFLO
09-11-2009, 06:14 AM
I think people are a little too excited that football is back...

General Zod
09-11-2009, 07:13 AM
This one is destined for the padlock.

awfullyquiet
09-11-2009, 07:16 AM
I will say that the Titans pass rush REALLY exposed how mediocre the secondary is.

yep. you heard it here first (again, i said the same thing last year).

Smooth Criminal
09-11-2009, 07:22 AM
Titans stacked the box and challenged the Steelers to throw the ball. They stayed committed to stopping the run all game, even as Ben was throwing the ball all over the field.

The Steelers OL got no push at all. They looked terrible in run blocking. Pass blocking was pretty good actually. 3 of the sacks were completely on Ben.

Titans have a great front 7. Hopefully the run game can improve. This is probably the toughtest defense they'll have to play other than Baltimore.

killxswitch
09-11-2009, 07:45 AM
I don't know why people on this site hate new threads so much. It's weird.

Maybe the new league emphasis on not holding has something to do with Pitts line lack of a push? But if they were good on pass protection that wouldn't make sense...

no bare feet
09-11-2009, 07:59 AM
It is scary to think how much better the Steelers offense would be with a mediocre line. Yes Ben hangs on to the ball longer than he should but still that line is not good. I would like to see Santonio's stats if he has around 80 catches this year. 1200 yards+?

Jughead10
09-11-2009, 09:06 AM
Holmes was great last night and even before this year started I thought he was gonna have a huge year. Giants fans don't talk about it a lot, but I really regret trading back in the draft and not taking him that year.

YAYareaRB
09-11-2009, 09:16 AM
IBTL..

I've been waiting for Santonio to put on a show. I think it's interesting that he had THE EXACT SAME NUMBERS in the superbowl that he did last night. Heath Miller is the most reliable out of all of them though. Steelers turning to finesse? I guess there's a first time for everything.

MetSox17
09-11-2009, 10:20 AM
I will say that the Titans pass rush REALLY exposed how mediocre the secondary is.

yep. you heard it here first (again, i said the same thing last year).

Strongly disagree.

You can have 7 Nnamdi Asomughas back there, if you give the offense five seconds to run around, someone WILL get open.

yourfavestoner
09-11-2009, 10:53 AM
How does Ohio State consistently put out such good receivers?

YAYareaRB
09-11-2009, 10:57 AM
How does Ohio State consistently put out such good receivers?

They know how to recruit and once they get there, they know how to coach
'em up

brat316
09-11-2009, 11:02 AM
Thats because the line blows are run blocking. And the Titans were giving them all day to throw.

Splat
09-11-2009, 11:13 AM
Its because Big Ben pump fakes every play and the DL jumps in the air every time I mean come on you know he is going to do it.

Race for the Heisman
09-11-2009, 11:15 AM
How does Ohio State consistently put out such good receivers?

It's our trade-off for sucking at everything else (except maybe DBs).

Shiver
09-11-2009, 12:27 PM
They scored 13 points in 4 quarters and OT, their QB got sacked 4 times, and they were forced to throw because of their abysmal rushing attack. Their offense is going to be bad this year, really bad. They will not be able to sustain a one-dimensional attack and expect to win a lot of games.

CC.SD
09-11-2009, 12:31 PM
hahaha ain't no lock up in this thread.

Halsey
09-11-2009, 12:35 PM
It's funny how many people just don't get how good Roethlisberger is. Call him a system QB if you want, but he's going to be playing in that system for a long time and he's really good at it. Big Ben and Eli are the two most underrated QB's in the league, by far. They will lead their teams to the playoffs yet again and the doubters will still think their teams win despite them.

RAVENS/WIZARDS/ORIOLES
09-11-2009, 12:40 PM
I think he is a good QB but last night he was getting way to much time to throw. IMO the Titans lost that game more than the Steelers won that game. The Titans missed a easy FG and only blitzed more than 4 people like 3 times the whole 4th quarter. Like someone posted earlier you can have a bunch of Asomugha's out there and if you give a QB that much time they will find someone open. If they couldn't run on the Titans then they are going to have a lot more trouble with the Ravens. The more passing plays against the Ravens means more blitzes and more opportunities for Ed Reed to snatch it out the air.

steelernation77
09-11-2009, 12:46 PM
I think he is a good QB but last night he was getting way to much time to throw. IMO the Titans lost that game more than the Steelers won that game. The Titans missed a easy FG and only blitzed more than 4 people like 3 times the whole 4th quarter. Like someone posted earlier you can have a bunch of Asomugha's out there and if you give a QB that much time they will find someone open. If they couldn't run on the Titans then they are going to have a lot more trouble with the Ravens. The more passing plays against the Ravens means more blitzes and more opportunities for Ed Reed to snatch it out the air.

The Steelers have never been able to run on the Ravens and have done pretty alright. 3-0 last season if you don't remember.

CC.SD
09-11-2009, 12:46 PM
It's funny how many people just don't get how good Roethlisberger is. Call him a system QB if you want, but he's going to be playing in that system for a long time and he's really good at it. Big Ben and Eli are the two most underrated QB's in the league, by far. They will lead their teams to the playoffs yet again and the doubters will still think their teams win despite them.

http://img.coxnewsweb.com/C/07/97/09/image_7409977.jpg

steelernation77
09-11-2009, 12:49 PM
They scored 13 points in 4 quarters and OT, their QB got sacked 4 times, and they were forced to throw because of their abysmal rushing attack. Their offense is going to be bad this year, really bad. They will not be able to sustain a one-dimensional attack and expect to win a lot of games.

Have you been watching the Steelers at all in the last few years? The running game has been pretty awful for awhile and they certainly haven't been able to run against good defenses. This has been a pretty one-dimensional team for awhile.

ShutDwn
09-11-2009, 12:50 PM
It's funny how many people just don't get how good Roethlisberger is. Call him a system QB if you want, but he's going to be playing in that system for a long time and he's really good at it. Big Ben and Eli are the two most underrated QB's in the league, by far. They will lead their teams to the playoffs yet again and the doubters will still think their teams win despite them.

He will play in a system that gets him hit a lot for a long time? Actually, I don't see much that resembles a system in their offense, their offense is so school yard because of Ben.

Smooth Criminal
09-11-2009, 01:34 PM
This offense looks exactly like the one we had last year. Too many penalties, sloppy OL play, pathetic run game. Only thing that kept this game from being a blowout was the great defense and special teams.

Ben played great in the 2nd half, 11-11 in th 4th quarter, but he can't do it alone forever. The OL and run game both have to improve just so we can have some stability on offense.

RAVENS/WIZARDS/ORIOLES
09-11-2009, 01:37 PM
Yea that is what I am saying. Ben isn't going to be able to do that every game. They are going to have to try to get that running game going more. I hope Troy P. falls down some steps and gets more weeks added to them 3-6. :)

Splat
09-11-2009, 02:07 PM
Actually, I don't see much that resembles a system in their offense, their offense is so school yard because of Ben.

He would be the new Favre if the old Favre would ever give it up.

Saints-Tigers
09-11-2009, 02:27 PM
I don't think Big Ben is a top tier quarterback, but you can't convince me that anyone could do what he's asked to do as good as he does. He takes a beating back there, and still isn't shy about hanging onto the football a long time.

TitanHope
09-11-2009, 03:09 PM
I will say that the Titans pass rush REALLY exposed how mediocre the secondary is.

yep. you heard it here first (again, i said the same thing last year).

What's your definition of a good secondary then, AQ? If not being able to consistently cover receivers for 5-7 seconds makes you mediocre, then every secondary in the NFL is mediocre.

The whole statement is redundant. It's like saying, "I will say that x-team's poor run-blocking showed how mediocre their RB is."

Raiderz4Life
09-11-2009, 03:17 PM
I don't think Big Ben is a top tier quarterback, but you can't convince me that anyone could do what he's asked to do as good as he does. He takes a beating back there, and still isn't shy about hanging onto the football a long time.

I 2nd that statement. Big Ben isn't a great QB he's just a good one that does what the team needs him to do to win. He does sort of resemble a Brett Farve.

Halsey
09-11-2009, 03:38 PM
Ok, so Big Ben is a QB who "does what the team needs him to do to win", but he's not 'elite'. Call him what you want, he's what most teams wish their QB was.

Halsey
09-11-2009, 03:45 PM
BTW, every team in the AFC North have starting QB's with big time physical talent/potential. That will be a fun division to watch if you like watching big, athletic, strong armed QB's.

Bengalsrocket
09-11-2009, 03:47 PM
Ok, so Big Ben is a QB who "does what the team needs him to do to win", but he's not 'elite'. Call him what you want, he's what most teams wish their QB was.

I'd wager most people don't think he's "elite" because he does things differently than most QBs. Kurt Warner / Peyton Manning / Tom Brady / Aaron Rodgers / Drew Brees / Carson Palmer / Eli Manning / Kerry Collins / Delhomme / Hasselbeck etc. are all unique in their own right, but still do things basically "by the book".

Roethlisberger / Favre / McNabb (I think McNabb is kind of in between the two categories) and a few other guys, all do things a little bit differently. They don't necessarily stay in the pocket, or plant their feet when they throw, but whatever it is they're doing, does in fact, work. It's not what an offensive coordinator dreams of either, but they're generally happy w/ the out come.

Shiver
09-11-2009, 05:11 PM
Ben Roethlisberger is a good QB, but I wouldn't put him in the elite. I would slot him somewhere near Tony Romo and Donovan McNabb and behind Philip Rivers.

YAYareaRB
09-11-2009, 05:14 PM
They really need to clean up the line play. I would love to see Big Ben have time back there consistently to silence the doubters.

duckseason
09-11-2009, 06:40 PM
They really need to clean up the line play. I would love to see Big Ben have time back there consistently to silence the doubters.
I'm not sure there's a OL unit in the game that can give Roethlisberger the kind of time he's asking for. He simply holds onto the ball too long more often than most, thereby making his line look worse than it is. Same thing with Parker/Mendenhall. Yeah the line isn't great, but it's no worse than the guys playing behind it.

In other words, Drew Brees and Peyton Manning are very easy to block for. They read the field like it's a traffic light and get the ball out quicker than anyone. They make any line look better.

Ben Roethlisberger is very difficult to block for. He's often very indecisive and just seems to disregard the clock that hangs over every pocket. He makes any line look worse.

Adrian Peterson and Steven Jackson are very easy to block for. They will get theirs behind any unit in the league.

Willie Parker and Rashard Mendenhall are very difficult to block for because they lack the required vision and burst to make it to the second level on a consistent basis. If you can't find the hole, can't get to the hole at its peak, and can't hit 5th gear through the hole, it doesn't mean the hole never existed.

Some of you need to go watch the game again. On most pass plays, Roethlisberger was given more than enough time to get the ball out. On most of their big plays and even on many of their bad plays, the offensive line provided more than ample time to get the job done. They actually had a solid game, imo.

Bucs_Rule
09-11-2009, 06:51 PM
I 2nd that statement. Big Ben isn't a great QB he's just a good one that does what the team needs him to do to win. He does sort of resemble a Brett Farve.

Thats what people said about Brady before he got Moss and Welker and starting putting up big numbers.

In order to be consider elite you have to put up top numbers and in order to do that you need a great supporting cast. Pittsburgh doesn't have same level of offense talent.

Saints-Tigers
09-11-2009, 07:11 PM
I don't think you can plug Ben into any offense and expect him to carry them like I think some other guys can. But he isn't just "doing what his team asks" he makes some plays with shoddy lines that maybe/possibly only HE could make, that's what impresses me most.

He is the best QB to play for the Steelers is what I'm saying, but he is more important than some people like to admit.

Shiver
09-11-2009, 07:38 PM
I would not say the Steelers' line is "shoddy." Even he admits he makes them look bad because of his style. The Quarterback makes the O-Line; the Patriots are a fantastic example. Tom Brady (21) was rarely sacked, 5th least in the NFL, Matt Cassel (48) was sacked a lot, 5th most, same line.

brat316
09-11-2009, 07:45 PM
I would not say the Steelers' line is "shoddy." Even he admits he makes them look bad because of his style. The Quarterback makes the O-Line; the Patriots are a fantastic example. Tom Brady (21) was rarely sacked, 5th least in the NFL, Matt Cassel (48) was sacked a lot, 5th most, same line.

for pass pro its not bad, for the run game its pretty bad. He does make the line look bad, but at times the line is bad its self.

Raiderz4Life
09-11-2009, 11:53 PM
Thats what people said about Brady before he got Moss and Welker and starting putting up big numbers.

In order to be consider elite you have to put up top numbers and in order to do that you need a great supporting cast. Pittsburgh doesn't have same level of offense talent.

I dont think I EVER heard anyone say that about Brady. He had great years with decent receivers. Brady rose to elite status after he proved his first super bowl wasn't a fluke....Big Ben is more on the Trent Dilfer side. He helps the team and wont kill them but the Defense is what carries them.

Flyboy
09-12-2009, 12:48 AM
I would not say the Steelers' line is "shoddy." Even he admits he makes them look bad because of his style. The Quarterback makes the O-Line; the Patriots are a fantastic example. Tom Brady (21) was rarely sacked, 5th least in the NFL, Matt Cassel (48) was sacked a lot, 5th most, same line.

I think Drew Brees is a better example of that actually.

CC.SD
09-12-2009, 03:35 AM
I think Drew Brees is a better example of that actually.

I think the steeler O-line is unnecessarily put in bad spots by ben's tendency to hold onto the ball, but gbiven how successful he is when he does have time, maybe theose mofos need to hold the line for another second and let the Steelers get the best of both worlds.

bigbluedefense
09-12-2009, 10:05 AM
People need to stop hating on Ben. He is not your conventional qb, but he's still a damn good qb.

Yes, he stares down his first read.

Yes, he can't read defenses.

Yes, he holds the ball too long.

Yes, he makes excuses and fakes injuries.

But you know what he also does? Win. And I don't want to hear that BS that the team wins despite him, bc its wrong. Everyone thinks that a good qb has to be somebody who carries his team. No qb who ever won a SB carried a bad team on his shoulders. If you think that, then you have no concept of how real football (not fantasy) operates.

Peyton didn't win a SB until he relied on his run game, and his defense. Brady won his SBs with a great defense and game managing style.

Aikman won his with a defense and run game. Elway didn't win until he handed off to Terrell Davis.

Get the point? You can't take away credit from a man who has accomplished something. Ben has done what every fan asks of his qb. Win a SB.

He's clutch as hell, and makes great plays with his feet. He gets it done. Yeah, hes staring down Holmes all day, but he has the arm to fling it between 3 defenders and get it to him anyway. And he can scramble around and wait for him to get open then hit him. So while its terribly unconventional and bad practice, the bottomline is he gets it done, and makes it work.

Some qbs crawl into a shell under pressure. I'll take Ben over all of em (all the ones who haven't proven to be clutch that is). I don't care if guys like Romo, Brees, and Cutler have better numbers than him. When the game is on the line, I'd rather have Ben Roethlisberger over all those guys any day of the week. So forget your stats. I want the guy who wins, the guy who makes it happen in the clutch.

I love Brees, but people forget how unaccomplished he is in the playoffs. Cutler never played a playoff game. I can go on and on.

And thats what fantasy football has done to our perception of what a good player is and what he isn't. Everyone forgot what its all really about. I hate stats with a passion, and Ben Roethlisberger is actually a perfect example of how the blogging fan has forgotten what makes a true franchise qb a franchise qb.

aNYtitan
09-12-2009, 02:27 PM
How did a discussion actually occur in this thread? Don't really need its own. Lock em up

Shiver
09-12-2009, 04:24 PM
I think there needs to be more moderation in how we view Ben. He isn't John Elway, but he isn't Trent Dilfer either.

Shane P. Hallam
09-12-2009, 04:43 PM
He is a Top 5 QB in the league though. Maybe not based purely on talent, but he gets the job done. Most 4th quarter/OT winning drives since he started? Yes. 2 Super Bowl rings, and without him we wouldn't have sniffed getting to those Super Bowls. I'm not sure exactly how you want to judge QBs, but if winning games and winning them often times at the end of games (i.e. Super Bowl last year,) is what you want in a QB, then Ben is it. You can have your QB that puts up gaudy numbers but won't win the big games, I'll take Ben.

BlindSite
09-12-2009, 08:45 PM
He is a Top 5 QB in the league though. Maybe not based purely on talent, but he gets the job done. Most 4th quarter/OT winning drives since he started? Yes. 2 Super Bowl rings, and without him we wouldn't have sniffed getting to those Super Bowls. I'm not sure exactly how you want to judge QBs, but if winning games and winning them often times at the end of games (i.e. Super Bowl last year,) is what you want in a QB, then Ben is it. You can have your QB that puts up gaudy numbers but won't win the big games, I'll take Ben.

I tend to agree, Ben isn't perfect, but you can't argue with the results. Sure the Steelers have had quality teams around him in that time, but he's been a HUGE part of what the Steelers were able to do. There's not many QB's who'd have been able to do what he did in the SB especially.

Shiver
09-12-2009, 08:46 PM
Top 5 in accomplishments for sure, but if I was starting a team he would be more in the 8-10 range.

Shane P. Hallam
09-12-2009, 08:49 PM
Top 5 in accomplishments for sure, but if I was starting a team he would be more in the 8-10 range.

I'd like to hear who. I think starting a team, Ben may be my 3rd or 4th choice after the obvious. Ben's style just works well with so many different players, and can mask some weaknesses with the rest of the offense. If you want to take Rivers or Cutler or Rodgers, be my guest, but I'll take Ben.

Shiver
09-12-2009, 09:20 PM
The No Brainers:

Tom Brady

Peyton Manning

Drew Brees

Young guys who have already shown elite ability:

Philip Rivers - Better pure passer and he has amazing intangibles, remember him willing them into the AFCCG and having them play NE hard with a partially torn ACL. People don't realize that he led the NFL in passer rating and touchdowns last year. It is now his team, not LaDainian's.

Aaron Rodgers - This guy has it all. There was no QB who surprised me more than him last year. In his first full year he was a top-3 QB, and with the situation he has he will only continue to improve. Rodgers to Jennings is going to be a great tandem for years to come.

And two guys who have just begun to show greatness:

Matt Ryan - The next "cerebral" QB. His completion percentage as a rookie is startling and he already reads defenses so fast that he is rarely sacked. His rookie year is like a hybrid of Marino and Manning.

Joe Flacco - Has the livest arm I have ever seen. If he had legitimate weapons he would be a force. His pocket presence is really impressive and he will attack a defense vertically in some places that I have never seen a QB able to go after.

My biggest problem with Ben is that he takes way too many sacks and throws way too many interceptions. He hurts his team a lot by doing his crazy running around thing. He makes more plays than not, but still I would rather have a QB who will pick apart a defense and not make any boneheaded plays. He isn't even consistent on a yearly basis, let alone a game by game basis.

Shiver
09-12-2009, 09:32 PM
Ben's last three seasons:

17 touchdowns/15 Interceptions
32 touchdowns/11 Interceptions
18 touchdowns/23 interceptions

It is maddening for a QB to be as inconsistent as this. I expect year to year efficiency from a "top-5" QB.

BlindSite
09-12-2009, 09:41 PM
Brady
Manning
Breesus
Rivers
Roethlisberger
Cutler

For established Qbs

Race for the Heisman
09-12-2009, 09:43 PM
Brady
Manning
Breesus
Rivers
Roethlisberger
Cutler

For established Qbs

I'd buy that.

steel man
09-12-2009, 10:00 PM
hey all of the Ben haters and the ones that does not want to give him his cred. there is no way that you can sit and say that Ben does not elevate a team as much as Brady or Manning or any other QB. you can say that he has always had good teams around him, but what SB champ does not have a good team around them...did/does Brady have a good team around him...yes....did Montana have a good team around him....yes....did Bradshaw have a good team around him....yes....did Elway have a good team around him....yes....did troy Aikman have a good team around him....yes....Kurt Warrner.....yes.....and that is just multiple SB winners, not counting the Jim Kelly's that lost SB's and they had great teams around them also and all of these teams had a better OL and running games, which helps a QB more then anything else could...so when you say that Ben had/has a good team around him, who don't...plus Pittsburgh had/has/and always will have a good team so why did they not win SB's with the likes of Slash, Tomczak, O'donnell, Miller, Brister, Maddox, and then Ben comes along and has won 2 in 5 years.....so do not act like Ben is not one of the best QB's in the NFL. you also talk about all of those other QB's ahead of him well none of them besides Brady and Manning are even close to Dan Marino and he did not win a SB so those that and sling the pig skin and put up number, that does not make them a better QB....also Bradshaw was the 1st and 1 of only 2 QB's to win 4 SB's and he threw INT's all of the time but he made some of the best plays ever also and that is how Ben is, he makes the big time throws in the big time games and at the right time and thats what makes you a great QB not the nick picking other stuff....as for numbers and stats...well Ben has won more games then ANYBODY to ever play this game in his 1st 5 years (and that includes the season where he just about died and had emergency surgery), was the youngest to win a SB, won more games as a rookie then ANYBODY else in the history of the game, and set a record for the most wins in a row EVER, rookie or not.......so i think bottom line is you have winners and stat accumulators and Ben is one of the top 3 winners in the NFL.

Shane P. Hallam
09-12-2009, 10:00 PM
Ben's last three seasons:

17 touchdowns/15 Interceptions
32 touchdowns/11 Interceptions
18 touchdowns/23 interceptions

It is maddening for a QB to be as inconsistent as this. I expect year to year efficiency from a "top-5" QB.

That's what I'm saying, stats don't matter in what I'm talking about. I say wins, and he wins.

And the lists above are fine, only one I find laughable is Flacco. At this point, I can't see one reason to take him over Ben.

scottyboy
09-12-2009, 10:06 PM
That's what I'm saying, stats don't matter in what I'm talking about. I say wins, and he wins.

And the lists above are fine, only one I find laughable is Flacco. At this point, I can't see one reason to take him over Ben.

he's got a unibrow.

but this is how it is, guys who win and don't put up big stats will get hated on because they're not "the reason" their teams win. I think Big Ben is an idiot and not that good of a QB, but you gotta respect his "it" factor to come up huge when he needs to and not **** up in the huge games

Shiver
09-12-2009, 10:07 PM
Well I am wacko for Flacco. lol But seriously if I was starting a team right now Flacco would be on my short list. He isn't good now, but the premise of the list promotes some projection/.

Wins is the worst statistic to use when judging an individual player in a game where there are 22 starters + special teams. In basketball I could buy it, but not in the NFL, not even with the QB position.

steel man
09-12-2009, 10:08 PM
what upsets me is that someone like Vick comes in and has worse stats then Ben but because he ran around and made something happen and he helped his team win then he is put on a pedestal and everyone talks about how great of a QB he is and how he helped his team win but when someone like Ben does it then he gets criticized and no one wants to say he is a great QB and QB's like Vick does not put up great eye-popping numbers either....so why can Ben not get his cred

Shiver
09-12-2009, 10:10 PM
Vick was never as good as Roethlisberger is now. You cannot find anyone who would say otherwise. Your use of "weasel words" is quite impressive though.

steel man
09-12-2009, 10:12 PM
Well I am wacko for Flacco. lol

Wins is the worst statistic to use when judging an individual player in a game where there are 22 starters + special teams. In basketball I could buy it, but not in the NFL, not even with the QB position.

so are you saying that nothing Ben has ever done has helped his team win a game?

Shane P. Hallam
09-12-2009, 10:13 PM
Well I am wacko for Flacco. lol But seriously if I was starting a team right now Flacco would be on my short list. He isn't good now, but the premise of the list promotes some projection/.

Wins is the worst statistic to use when judging an individual player in a game where there are 22 starters + special teams. In basketball I could buy it, but not in the NFL, not even with the QB position.

Perhaps, but 20 game winning drives in 6 seasons (most in that time, 3 more than Peyton Manning,) is on the QB.

Shiver
09-12-2009, 10:24 PM
Absolutely not. He is a very, very good QB. He has made big time plays to win games. But using the "he wins" argument is a little weak when that is your trump card. "All other arguments are invalidated because 'he wins.'"

Saints-Tigers
09-12-2009, 10:46 PM
Perhaps, but 20 game winning drives in 6 seasons (most in that time, 3 more than Peyton Manning,) is on the QB.

Still not feeling that type of stat, didn't like it for John Elway, and I didn't like it for one of my own guys (Aaron Brooks).

Peyton Manning probably buried a few teams that Roethlisberger would let hang around and need to lead a game winning drive against...

Not saying he isn't absolutely one of the best at leading a late drive, but I think the true greats rarely let the team get into that situation.

Shane P. Hallam
09-12-2009, 10:47 PM
I never said all other arguments are invalidated. I never said this was my trump card. I'm merely stating my opinion.

Shiver
09-12-2009, 11:07 PM
Alright, cool. I guess I am venting vs the whole argument, not just in this instance but when it is used by everyone whose QB isn't Brady, Manning and Brees. Nothing personal against you JBond.

Bengalsrocket
09-13-2009, 12:24 AM
Peyton Manning probably buried a few teams that Roethlisberger would let hang around and need to lead a game winning drive against...


This. I respect 4th quarter comebacks just as much as the next guy, but it's not like he's never lost a game either. Like Saints-Tigers said, and not just Peyton Manning, but a lot of the "elite" QB's buried teams before there was ever a chance for a 4th quarter comeback.

It's a good stat (I'm not a stat hater), and should definitely be in the conversation when ranking Ben against other QB's. But it's not the most important stat, and I don't think it detracts from other QB's when they lack 4th quarter come backs.

I'll say again, even though it's not that interesting the read the comments of someone who holds a moderate position on the subject, but Ben is a unique QB. What he does is certainly not "by the book", but it does work (otherwise he wouldn't have a job :P) and no one can argue that the Steelers will be looking to replace him anytime soon.

The team doesn't win despite him, they win because of him. But they also win because of the other 52 guys on the team :P. I would even go as far as to say that he has the most individual value on the team, I just don't think it's by that much.

vikes_28
09-13-2009, 02:33 AM
I still hate Ben, but at the same time, he is a great QB that can manage a game. He is going to be so good this year. The last three seasons he hasn't had much to throw to...Now he has a star in Holmes. I love Big Ben's attitude towards the game. This guy is going to play til he is 40.

Shane P. Hallam
09-13-2009, 09:22 AM
I still hate Ben, but at the same time, he is a great QB that can manage a game. He is going to be so good this year. The last three seasons he hasn't had much to throw to...Now he has a star in Holmes. I love Big Ben's attitude towards the game. This guy is going to play til he is 40.

With his playing style, he will get hit way to much for that to happen.