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Sniper
09-23-2009, 05:04 PM
Who is it?

D-Unit
09-23-2009, 06:27 PM
Corey Webster.

...and Newman having one bad doesn't make him a terrible player.

Hurricanes25
09-23-2009, 06:28 PM
I voted for Corey Webster. I think he is a top 5 CB in the league.

Giantsfan1080
09-23-2009, 10:08 PM
I'm going Webster also. Call me a homer but since the Buffalo game in '07 he's totally shutdown everyone. Brown is a close 2nd.

eaglesalltheway
09-23-2009, 10:11 PM
I voted other, Quentin Mikell. I say Brown is a better overall corner than Asante though...

Thumper
09-23-2009, 10:15 PM
I decided upon Asante Samuel just because he is the most exciting to watch, is one of the best CB in playoff history, is probably the best zone corner in the NFL and he did really well last season. Plus, he is by far the most vocal leader of the group. Plus, I just like him the best and I decided to let the homer in me have this one.

Corey Webster and Sheldon Brown are better in man coverage though.

D-Unit
09-24-2009, 01:57 PM
Corey Webster is no longer underrated, so you can stop that talk Giants fans. ;)

DiG
09-24-2009, 02:00 PM
much as id love to vote for rogers, webster has been very impressive. full body of work ill take asante but right now web is playing great.

D-Unit
09-24-2009, 02:01 PM
I wanted Roy to make Webster look silly on Sunday, but he only did it once. Romo didn't target him too many times though. Gotta credit that to Webster.

Don Vito
09-25-2009, 02:52 AM
You guys don't think Landry is that caliber yet? I know he is a very good player and a great talent but you get to watch him more than I do.

eaglesalltheway
09-25-2009, 04:15 PM
You guys don't think Landry is that caliber yet? I know he is a very good player and a great talent but you get to watch him more than I do.

He doesn't get to make as much of an impact due to his role in the Skins D, and thus, doesn't get the attention he probably should... Defintiely one of the top "other" choices, IMO.

Thumper
09-25-2009, 04:42 PM
Landry has really failed to impress me. I mean look what he did in college, he was a monster and now look at him in the pros... Landry is stuck with the same problem Taylor Mays is, the coaching staff does not implement them in a fashion where they're going to be able stop the run and be an imposing force the way they could be. Both of them have potential to be off the charts good but they're not used in a way that it highlights their best skills.

If either of them were in the Eagles FS spot where the FS is an attacker like Dawkins was they would be consensus all pros. But... we don't have any evidence to support that. And since Landry plays center field he doesn't get to show off his physical style and blitzing ability. And since all we have to compare him to are other center fielders are Ed Reed, Michael Griffin and others Landry is clearly not the best FS in the league. In terms of physical talent he might be #1 since Sean Taylor left us (RIP) but in terms of on the field impact he is probably not even top 10.

Rosebud
09-25-2009, 08:21 PM
I voted for Corey but seeing Asante with more votes than Sheldon Brown is wrong. And Laron Landry definitely needs to be an option as he's the third best DB in the East, at least IMO.

FUNBUNCHER
09-25-2009, 08:26 PM
Landry is having a down year thus far. Lots of missed tackles and bad angles to the ball carrier. He lacks great ball instincts and too often goes for the knockout hit instead of the solid tackle.

Playing the 'angel' position for the Skins doesn't help, but he has been given more of a role in the run game this year and he hasn't flashed.
Horton right now is the best safety playing for the Skins, IMO.

Go_Eagles77
09-30-2009, 02:35 PM
I voted for Corey but seeing Asante with more votes than Sheldon Brown is wrong. And Laron Landry definitely needs to be an option as he's the third best DB in the East, at least IMO.
I strongly disagree. From what I have seen of him I wouldn't even say he is outperforming Chris Horton, let alone most of the DBs in the east.

Rosebud
10-01-2009, 01:16 AM
I strongly disagree. From what I have seen of him I wouldn't even say he is outperforming Chris Horton, let alone most of the DBs in the east.

Are we talking about this season or his career so far? He's clearly having a down season but I think that is an anomaly and he'll bounce back to the guy he was last year, and if he does that I think he's clearly the number 3 DB in the east.

Go_Eagles77
10-01-2009, 09:24 AM
Are we talking about this season or his career so far? He's clearly having a down season but I think that is an anomaly and he'll bounce back to the guy he was last year, and if he does that I think he's clearly the number 3 DB in the east.
If we're going by last year I'd still take Quintin Mikell and Asante Samuel over him.

Rosebud
10-01-2009, 03:39 PM
If we're going by last year I'd still take Quintin Mikell and Asante Samuel over him.

Well, that's like, your opinion man.

JFLO
10-01-2009, 03:43 PM
Webster is quickly becoming one of the best defensive players in the game, let alone DB.

Go_Eagles77
10-01-2009, 04:00 PM
Well, that's like, your opinion man.
Never said it wasn't. I think that's pretty much implied in 95% of the posts on this forum.

Giantsfan1080
10-01-2009, 04:13 PM
Chris Horton was named as one of the backups now by the way.

Toneloc498
10-02-2009, 11:29 AM
Going with Webster, he has had 12 passes tossed his way, 3 completions for 22 yards (Roy Williams 18 yard catch, S Moss -2 yard catch, S Moss 6 yard catch) and has gotten 1 interception. Last year he had one of if not the best stats of any cornerback in the NFL.

SeanTaylorRIP
10-11-2009, 04:29 PM
Chris Horton was named as one of the backups now by the way.

He's still better than Landry though.

bigbluedefense
10-11-2009, 07:49 PM
it's been a bad year for Landry.

With Kenny Phillips going on IR, I think Mikell has solidified himself as the best safety in the division this year.

SeanTaylorRIP
10-12-2009, 08:30 AM
Landry really has never come close to reaching his potential. He's never been bad but he's just the same. He won't ever get beat deep, he'll hit you down the middle but he doesn't make great breaks on the ball and he can't and never has been able to tackle worth a crap. He just launches his body to the point that a 170 pound receiver could bounce off of him let alone a RB. Chris Horton really has been the 2nd best player on our defense this year. He's one of the surest tackling DB's in the league, he's a playmaker and is solid in coverage. His benching was all politics. Greg Blache was feeling heat for the play of our defense so his cop out was Chris Horton. It's so easy to put the blame on a guy making less that 500k a year instead of blaming the high paid pssies like Deangelo Hall or the franchise safety in LaRon Landry.

DiG
10-12-2009, 09:12 AM
landry played really well yesterday. he just tries to do too much sometimes and gets in trouble. yesterday he took some great angles, blew up the backfield several times, and forced a fumble.

SeanTaylorRIP
10-12-2009, 09:20 AM
The safety play in the NFC east is probably the weakest positional unit in teh entire conference.

bigbluedefense
10-12-2009, 11:11 AM
I don't think Landry is as bad as advertised. He just needs to stay more disciplined.

Its just one of those years for the Skins. Telling DHall to grow a pair would go a long way in shoring up that defense. The guy is getting picks, but man has he fell off as a CB.

SeanTaylorRIP
10-12-2009, 11:26 AM
I don't think Landry is as bad as advertised. He just needs to stay more disciplined.

Its just one of those years for the Skins. Telling DHall to grow a pair would go a long way in shoring up that defense. The guy is getting picks, but man has he fell off as a CB.

Picks as in his man beats him drops the ball and it gets tips to him. Carlos Rogers would get INT's too if we were playing with beach balls so he might be able to hold on. The fact is Hall is slow as hell in coverage and the biggest pssy in the NFL. I mean how the guy simply is afraid to get his nails broken. Jake fcking Delhomme carried Deangelo for 5 yards for the game and Delhomme has got to be the least athletic and worst starting QB in the league right now. Dhall is a joke and I was going off the second we gave him that contract.

bigbluedefense
10-12-2009, 03:53 PM
Picks as in his man beats him drops the ball and it gets tips to him. Carlos Rogers would get INT's too if we were playing with beach balls so he might be able to hold on. The fact is Hall is slow as hell in coverage and the biggest pssy in the NFL. I mean how the guy simply is afraid to get his nails broken. Jake fcking Delhomme carried Deangelo for 5 yards for the game and Delhomme has got to be the least athletic and worst starting QB in the league right now. Dhall is a joke and I was going off the second we gave him that contract.

Yeah DHall has been awful. Its amazing, he's done the exact opposite of what Corey Webster did.

He went from a great CB to a terrible one. You can tell the guy puts no effort in the film room, and has the heart of a mouse.

He has speed, and he has hands, but thats all he has. He couldve been so much better than he is. He needs someone to kick his butt into shape, he's still young, he can turn it around with some counseling.

SeanTaylorRIP
10-12-2009, 04:37 PM
I am baffled that he won that NFL's fastest player competition back in 05 and ran the fastest indoor 40 time in VT history(4.15). If you look at the way he plays on the field he looks no faster than a 4.7. Either he got really slow or he's just so fcking scared to get hit or hit someone that his feet are stuck in quicksand. While I think he has lost a step I think the 2nd option is the true reason why he's so damn slow on the field.

bigbluedefense
10-12-2009, 05:19 PM
Its easy running fast when you have shorts on.

The guy has no strength at all, so once you put the pads on, WRs just fling him like a rag doll and he can't recover from it.

A simple bump here or slight nudge there, and he'll fly off his man. Thats why even though he's fast, he can't cover anymore bc his pussiness is being exposed.

And he lacks the mentality to bounce back and fight back, so he just gets thrown around.

He used to be mean, he used to press, fight his guy and get physical. Something happened to him. He's just the biggest ***** now.

And bc he doesnt watch film anymore and just coasts and relies on his speed, he bites on so many moves he just gets burned.

quincyyyyy
10-12-2009, 05:19 PM
Mike Jenkins is very good.

Sniper
10-12-2009, 08:06 PM
Mike Jenkins is very good.

Great. He MIGHT be the fifth-best corner in the division.

Raiderz4Life
10-12-2009, 08:10 PM
Asante Samuel FTW

Rosebud
10-13-2009, 12:30 PM
Asante Samuel FTW

Web and sheldon Brown are so much better.

bigbluedefense
10-13-2009, 12:55 PM
If I were to rank all the CBs in the East as of today:

1. Corey Webster
2. Sheldon Brown
3. Asante Samuel
4. Terrell Thomas
5. Aaron Ross
6. Carlos Rogers
7. Terrance Newman
8. Fred Smoot
9. Mike Jenkins
10.Orlando Scandrick

and everyone past that doesn't really matter.

Rosebud
10-13-2009, 05:26 PM
If I were to rank all the CBs in the East as of today:

1. Corey Webster
2. Sheldon Brown
3. Asante Samuel
4. Terrell Thomas
5. Aaron Ross
6. Carlos Rogers
7. Terrance Newman
8. Fred Smoot
9. Mike Jenkins
10.Orlando Scandrick

and everyone past that doesn't really matter.

Has Rogers been having a bad year? He looked very good last year and if he's any where near that level this year I'd definitely have him above Ross, who's been injured, and above Terrell for now.

bigbluedefense
10-13-2009, 08:50 PM
Has Rogers been having a bad year? He looked very good last year and if he's any where near that level this year I'd definitely have him above Ross, who's been injured, and above Terrell for now.

He just gives you absolutely nothing as an INT guy.

The way TT is playing, he's sticking his guys just as well as Rogers. And TT is so versatile, he's the better blitzer, he covers TEs, speed guys, possession guys, he's probably the most versatile CB in the division. Can even play some safety if need be.

Ross gives a little less in coverage than Rogers but he can pick it off. I just can't view Rogers in the same light as the other top guys with those stone hands. He's a better version of Will Allen.

quincyyyyy
10-18-2009, 01:42 PM
Giants DBs are getting dominated by the Saints. I know they have a good passing game, but the Giants DBs look horrible. Even Webster is out of position multiple times that went for big plays. 34 points in the 1st half. That is just inexcusable; I don't care who you are playing. Can you say overrated?

Rosebud
10-18-2009, 02:54 PM
Giants DBs are getting dominated by the Saints. I know they have a good passing game, but the Giants DBs look horrible. Even Webster is out of position multiple times that went for big plays. 34 points in the 1st half. That is just inexcusable; I don't care who you are playing. Can you say overrated?

Not really, we don't have our best safety, best cover backer, third corner and have gotten pressure twice today. Webster's been good today, don't know what you are talking about.

quincyyyyy
10-18-2009, 08:44 PM
Not really, we don't have our best safety, best cover backer, third corner and have gotten pressure twice today. Webster's been good today, don't know what you are talking about.
That is an absurd statement. Since Kenny Phillips is out for the rest of the year none of your losses will count? Don't think we have had injuries? Cry me a river Argentina, everyone has injuries. Your Defense was absolutely putrid and got little pressure. And your offense was almost as bad. Eli is back to his old self. Expect more of that for the rest of the year; I knew Eli would eventually come back down to earth.

Rosebud
10-18-2009, 08:55 PM
That is an absurd statement. Since Kenny Phillips is out for the rest of the year none of your losses will count? Don't think we have had injuries? Cry me a river Argentina, everyone has injuries. Your Defense was absolutely putrid and got little pressure. And your offense was almost as bad. Eli is back to his old self. Expect more of that for the rest of the year; I knew Eli would eventually come back down to earth.

I was talking about whether or not our DBs are over-rated, so how did you go from that to our loss doesn't count? When did I ever cry about our injuries? You said our players were over-rated and I pointed out that many of them didn't play, so this game if anything proved that guys like Kenny would be under-rated.

As for Eli you're an idiot, he's come down to earth after two years? Sure, especially considering he had a pretty good game, we just shot ourselves in the foot too much early and late we were down by too much that our play calling got predictable.

Hey, we lost, our D got dominated, it happens. If that was all it took to get eliminated we'd have never won the superbowl against the pats since your cowboys dominated our D week one of that year before our new DC figured out what needed to be done for our D to match up with the elite teams.

The problem though was Sheridan, we got no pressure because we didn't rush more than 4 guys on a single play this game while playing soft zones in the secondary instead of running the tight bump n run man coverage that our players excel at. I hope he learns from this and gets our D to bounce back like Spags did 2 years ago.

quincyyyyy
10-18-2009, 08:57 PM
Moreover, it wasn't that you backups played poorly, it was that your starting corners played awful. Webster was bad. He got owned by Colston, and seemed to be out of position quite often. He even had a key defensive PI when he blatantly pushed Colston down after he toasted him. And Terrell Thomas was also pretty bad. No way he is even close to Mike Jenkins. So much for the injury argument...

quincyyyyy
10-18-2009, 09:09 PM
I was talking about whether or not our DBs are over-rated, so how did you go from that to our loss doesn't count? When did I ever cry about our injuries? You said our players were over-rated and I pointed out that many of them didn't play, so this game if anything proved that guys like Kenny would be under-rated.

As for Eli you're an idiot, he's come down to earth after two years? Sure, especially considering he had a pretty good game, we just shot ourselves in the foot too much early and late we were down by too much that our play calling got predictable.

Hey, we lost, our D got dominated, it happens. If that was all it took to get eliminated we'd have never won the superbowl against the pats since your cowboys dominated our D week one of that year before our new DC figured out what needed to be done for our D to match up with the elite teams.

The problem though was Sheridan, we got no pressure because we didn't rush more than 4 guys on a single play this game while playing soft zones in the secondary instead of running the tight bump n run man coverage that our players excel at. I hope he learns from this and gets our D to bounce back like Spags did 2 years ago.


I was drawing special attention to your corners (not your backups), whom are overrated.

Past two years? BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA. I guess I didn't get the memo that a 74 and 86 QB ratings were good. He has had a very good run game and defense to support his mediocre QB bad play for some time. Eli is the most overrated player on your team. I admit he has played well as of late, but I don't see that continuing. He is just not that good to keep it up, and today proved it. And he had a good game? He was horribly inaccurate (45.2%) with an overall rating of 61. And I'm the idiot...

More often than not teams don't blitz and the get pressure. Your players should be able to beat their men one on one; they can't, hence overrated.

Rosebud
10-18-2009, 09:13 PM
Moreover, it wasn't that you backups played poorly, it was that your starting corners played awful. Webster was bad. He got owned by Colston, and seemed to be out of position quite often. He even had a key defensive PI when he blatantly pushed Colston down after he toasted him. And Terrell Thomas was also pretty bad. No way he is even close to Mike Jenkins. So much for the injury argument...

lol, you didn't watch the game did you? Webster was pretty good and the fact that you mention that absolutely horrible PI call is proof you're talking out of your ass, colston was running with Webster and tripped over Web's leg, that's not PI and even my bears friend weed guy mentioned that. Anyway, we were in zone all game and our we're a man press team, so you can't really even analyze our secondary after that game. And TT got burned at times, but again he's a press man corner who was asked to play off the ball in zone, that's on the DC not the corners.

And yes, CC Brown, who is one of our backups, was remarkably terrible and responsible for at least 200 yards today. So yes our backups were terrible.

Rosebud
10-18-2009, 09:17 PM
I was drawing special attention to your corners (not your backups), whom are overrated.

Past two years? BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA. I guess I didn't get the memo that a 74 and 86 QB ratings were good. He has had a very good run game and defense to support his mediocre QB bad play for some time. Eli is the most overrated player on your team. I admit he has played well as of late, but I don't see that continuing. He is just not that good to keep it up, and today proved it. And he had a good game? He was horribly inaccurate (45.2%) with an overall rating of 61. And I'm the idiot...

More often than not teams don't blitz and the get pressure. Your players should be able to beat their men one on one; they can't, hence overrated.

QB rating? Seriously, do you want to seem like an idiot? Eli has been the cog that makes our offense go for two years, his pre-snap adjustments and ability to sustain drives is why we've been so dominant at controlling the clock and keeping our D fresh. Also you can't forget how great he has been as at driving us for late game scores throughout his tenure.

Our team sucked today, you can't say that's because eli was garbage, there were a lot of drops, penalties, broken protections, and then we were down by a ton in the second half. Eli is easily our MVP, if you don't think so you just haven't watched the giants since our superbowl run.

quincyyyyy
10-18-2009, 09:32 PM
lol, you didn't watch the game did you? Webster was pretty good and the fact that you mention that absolutely horrible PI call is proof you're talking out of your ass, colston was running with Webster and tripped over Web's leg, that's not PI and even my bears friend weed guy mentioned that. Anyway, we were in zone all game and our we're a man press team, so you can't really even analyze our secondary after that game. And TT got burned at times, but again he's a press man corner who was asked to play off the ball in zone, that's on the DC not the corners.

And yes, CC Brown, who is one of our backups, was remarkably terrible and responsible for at least 200 yards today. So yes our backups were terrible.

He didn't tripped him, he pushed him down with his right hand.

Furthermore, I don't know what game you were watching but Webster gave up big plays to Colston throughout the first half. You are truly delusional.

And yes your backups did play miserably. A sign of a good team is depth. You, admittedly, don't have that.

Giantsfan1080
10-18-2009, 09:33 PM
He didn't tripped him, he pushed him down with his right hand.

Furthermore, I don't know what game you were watching but Webster gave up big plays to Colston throughout the first half. You are truly delusional.

And yes your backups did play miserably. A sign of a good team is depth. You, admittedly, don't have that.

HAHAHA. The Giants have the deepest 53 man roster in the NFL. The one position we are lacking is safety. Also, Webster's hand was out but he didn't push on the PI.

quincyyyyy
10-18-2009, 09:38 PM
QB rating? Seriously, do you want to seem like an idiot? Eli has been the cog that makes our offense go for two years, his pre-snap adjustments and ability to sustain drives is why we've been so dominant at controlling the clock and keeping our D fresh. Also you can't forget how great he has been as at driving us for late game scores throughout his tenure.

Our team sucked today, you can't say that's because eli was garbage, there were a lot of drops, penalties, broken protections, and then we were down by a ton in the second half. Eli is easily our MVP, if you don't think so you just haven't watched the giants since our superbowl run.

Um QB rating is an excellent way to rate quarterbacks. Rarely does a QB have a very good year and have a sub 90 rating. Eli is a bus driver QB. Maybe he manages the game well, but that is it. You are terribly deluded if you think Eli has been a good QB the past two years.

Eli should have been picked off twice, and his accuracy was just miserable. I can't believe you think he had a good game. Whatever your smoking must be good.

Eli is not your MVP. His sub par play has been covered up by a great defense and run game the past couple of years. You must be living in a fantasy land.

Rosebud
10-18-2009, 09:38 PM
He didn't tripped him, he pushed him down with his right hand.

Furthermore, I don't know what game you were watching but Webster gave up big plays to Colston throughout the first half. You are truly delusional.

And yes your backups did play miserably. A sign of a good team is depth. You, admittedly, don't have that.

Man, I don't know what to tell you, but you're just wrong, that PI call was trash, webster didn't push colston and everyone who saw it knows it.

As for our depth any giants fan will admit our depth at safety sucks.

I like you are conveniently ignoring that we ran zone all game without bringing pressure even once, considering we are a bump n run team.

quincyyyyy
10-18-2009, 09:39 PM
HAHAHA. The Giants have the deepest 53 man roster in the NFL. The one position we are lacking is safety. Also, Webster's hand was out but he didn't push on the PI.

Well take that up with Rosebud because he thinks your backups are terrible.

Rosebud
10-18-2009, 09:40 PM
Um QB rating is an excellent way to rate quarterbacks. Rarely does a QB have a very good year and have a sub 90 rating. Eli is a bus driver QB. Maybe he manages the game well, but that is it. You are terribly deluded if you think Eli has been a good QB the past two years.

Eli should have been picked off twice, and his accuracy was just miserable. I can't believe you think he had a good game. Whatever your smoking must be good.

Eli is not your MVP. His sub par play has been covered up by a great defense and run game the past couple of years. You must be living in a fantasy land.

Eli was off, he didn't have a good game, but he sure as hell wasn't terrible. And I'm sorry but you just don't watch the giants, the more you blab on the clearer it becomes. It's okay since you're not a giants fan, but don't pretend like you do.

Rosebud
10-18-2009, 09:41 PM
Well take that up with Rosebud because he thinks your backups are terrible.

Again, I think our depth at safety is garbage, I think our DC has been bad this year and was absolutely terrible against the saints, but I have never said we had bad depth.

quincyyyyy
10-18-2009, 09:51 PM
Man, I don't know what to tell you, but you're just wrong, that PI call was trash, webster didn't push colston and everyone who saw it knows it.

As for our depth any giants fan will admit our depth at safety sucks.

I like you are conveniently ignoring that we ran zone all game without bringing pressure even once, considering we are a bump n run team.

Giants like the Cowboys and every other team does not blitz on every other play. Yet all these teams in the league can get pressure. Your players were just not beating their matchups. Hence overrated.

Playing zone is the reason why your D gave up 48 points? That is such an awful and, to be blunt, ignorant excuse I don't know where to begin. Some of the best defenses in the league over the years have played exclusively zone. If it was such a bad thing teams wouldn't do it. It is suppose to prevent big plays... Which your team still gave up as a matter of fact. So your players can't even do that right.

quincyyyyy
10-18-2009, 09:53 PM
Again, I think our depth at safety is garbage, I think our DC has been bad this year and was absolutely terrible against the saints, but I have never said we had bad depth.

Oh so now it is safety? Before it was just your backups. Right...

quincyyyyy
10-18-2009, 09:57 PM
Eli was off, he didn't have a good game, but he sure as hell wasn't terrible. And I'm sorry but you just don't watch the giants, the more you blab on the clearer it becomes. It's okay since you're not a giants fan, but don't pretend like you do.

Hmm that is interesting:



As for Eli you're an idiot, he's come down to earth after two years? Sure, especially considering he had a pretty good game,

First I was an idiot, because he had a good game, now he was off? Dude you are losing this argument. I have never seen someone shift positions as much as you within such a short time span.

Rosebud
10-18-2009, 11:10 PM
Giants like the Cowboys and every other team does not blitz on every other play. Yet all these teams in the league can get pressure. Your players were just not beating their matchups. Hence overrated.

Playing zone is the reason why your D gave up 48 points? That is such an awful and, to be blunt, ignorant excuse I don't know where to begin. Some of the best defenses in the league over the years have played exclusively zone. If it was such a bad thing teams wouldn't do it. It is suppose to prevent big plays... Which your team still gave up as a matter of fact. So your players can't even do that right.

We didn't blitz at all this game, our interior DL got absolutely no push, so while our DEs did underachieve a lot of the times they did beat their man Brees had plenty of room to step up. That's where the lack of stunts, twists and blitzes really hurt. If we had managed to get some pressure up the middle I think you'd have also seen our DEs perform better since Tuck was still beating his man and getting pressure at times. When did we start talking about our DL anyway? You started this by saying that our DBs were over-rated, now it's our DL?

And while Zone schemes have shown to be effective, you're talking about a secondary that's built to play a lot of man and press coverage, that's what our corners are built for, that's what they have worked on the most and that's where they excel. Bill Sheridan however decided to ignore that and put our players in the worst position for them to succeed. Especially when you account for the massive hole deep, occupied by whomever feels like making a fool of CC Brown. Look, if we were healthy playing zone wouldn't have killed us, but without two competent cover safeties things fall apart if you give a guy enough time.

Hmm that is interesting:



First I was an idiot, because he had a good game, now he was off? Dude you are losing this argument. I have never seen someone shift positions as much as you within such a short time span.

Compared to the rest of the team eli did have a pretty good game, I thought eli, nicks and bradshaw were our three best player in this game. Sorry that was poorly worded.

bigbluedefense
10-19-2009, 08:19 AM
Its still Corey Webster. We ran zone all game, our CBs didn't get beat in man coverage.

We had to run zone all game bc we had nobody who can cover the middle of the field with Boley being hurt.

TT just got beat once in man vs Shockey. But other than that, our man coverages were fine, we just barely ran it is all.

Our safeties suck, and it got exposed by the Saints. Well, CC sucks. Johnson is solid but not spectacular.

quincyyyyy
10-19-2009, 09:11 AM
Its still Corey Webster. We ran zone all game, our CBs didn't get beat in man coverage.

We had to run zone all game bc we had nobody who can cover the middle of the field with Boley being hurt.

TT just got beat once in man vs Shockey. But other than that, our man coverages were fine, we just barely ran it is all.

Our safeties suck, and it got exposed by the Saints. Well, CC sucks. Johnson is solid but not spectacular.

Um no. My eyes don't lie, and if you go to the play by play on espn.com you would see that Webster got beat regularly by Colston in the first half (not to mention the times he was out of position and wouldn't get mentioned in the play by play). Nice try though.

quincyyyyy
10-19-2009, 10:28 AM
Jermon Bushrod, T, New Orleans.

At 6-foot-5 and 315 pounds, it's hard to be anonymous, but Bushrod was until Sunday. Then he pitched a shutout against one of the best pass-rushers in the game, Osi Umenyiora of the Giants. Zero sacks, zero pressures. "I don't know that we ever hit [Drew Brees],'' coach Tom Coughlin said. Three times, actually. But it wasn't nearly enough, and the wall formed by Bushrod and his peers did the trick.

Read more: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2009/writers/peter_king/10/19/week6/2.html#ixzz0UOaXUNCA

bigbluedefense
10-19-2009, 11:50 AM
Um no. My eyes don't lie, and if you go to the play by play on espn.com you would see that Webster got beat regularly by Colston in the first half (not to mention the times he was out of position and wouldn't get mentioned in the play by play). Nice try though.

Your eyes obviously do lie, bc they can't tell the difference between zone defense and man coverage.

But I think you already made it very obvious already in this thread that you have no clue what you're talking about to begin with. So we'll leave it at that.

quincyyyyy
10-19-2009, 12:16 PM
Your eyes obviously do lie, bc they can't tell the difference between zone defense and man coverage.

But I think you already made it very obvious already in this thread that you have no clue what you're talking about to begin with. So we'll leave it at that.

Are you out of your mind? So playing zone defense absolves CBs of their responsibilities? I saw Webster out of position on multiple plays, and if you would go to espn.com play by play (http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/playbyplay?gameId=291018018&period=0) you would see that Webster got owned for at least 70-80 yards in the first half. So not only are you clueless, but you are being delusional.

bigbluedefense
10-19-2009, 12:22 PM
Are you out of your mind? So playing zone defense absolves CBs of their responsibilities? I saw Webster out of position on multiple plays, and if you would go to espn.com play by play (http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/playbyplay?gameId=291018018&period=0) you would see that Webster got owned for at least 70-80 yards in the first half.

No it doesnt. Which is why if you actually paid attention to the game, youd see that it was Dockery and CC who were getting abused in coverage.

Just bc a CB makes a tackle, doesn't mean that it was his assignment, so espn play by play is a comical argument.

They ran deep posts all game. Just bc they line up in front of a CB doesn't mean he gets torched. In fact CWeb broke off his own assignment to make tackles regularly in that game, so it may have looked like he got "burned", but he didn't. He wasn't out of position, he was breaking off his zones to try to save the play bc the interior zones were getting burned all game.

The only play that was on CWeb was the PI call, which most ppl agree was a BS call.

We ran Cover 2 for majority of that game. We lost fair and square, but CWeb wasn't the reason for us getting torched. Not by a long shot.

quincyyyyy
10-19-2009, 12:35 PM
No it doesnt. Which is why if you actually paid attention to the game, youd see that it was Dockery and CC who were getting abused in coverage.

Just bc a CB makes a tackle, doesn't mean that it was his assignment, so espn play by play is a comical argument.

They ran deep posts all game. Just bc they line up in front of a CB doesn't mean he gets torched. In fact CWeb broke off his own assignment to make tackles regularly in that game, so it may have looked like he got "burned", but he didn't. He wasn't out of position, he was breaking off his zones to try to save the play bc the interior zones were getting burned all game.

The only play that was on CWeb was the PI call, which most ppl agree was a BS call.

We ran Cover 2 for majority of that game. We lost fair and square, but CWeb wasn't the reason for us getting torched. Not by a long shot.

Um most people wouldn't agree. Webster blatantly pushed him down with his right hand. If it was a wrong call you would be getting an acknowledgment from the league later this week. I sincerely doubt you will get one.

I know how zone works. Webster regularly whiffed on his assignments. you must be delusional.

quincyyyyy
10-19-2009, 01:06 PM
Jacobs, Webster struggle in return home

By Chris Singleton
Staff Writer

Published: Monday, October 19, 2009 at 11:00 a.m.
Last Modified: Monday, October 19, 2009 at 11:26 a.m.

NEW ORLEANS — “Home Sweet Home” was the complete opposite for New York Giants running back Brandon Jacobs and cornerback Corey Webster during Sunday's game against the New Orleans Saints.

Playing in their first game back in Louisiana as professional football players, Sunday's showdown between two undefeated teams went from a homecoming celebration to a disappointing performance for both Jacobs and Webster.

The Saints ripped apart New York's top-ranked defense with 493 total yards, and held the Giants' rushing attack to a season low 84 yards in a 48-27 win at the Louisiana Superdome on Sunday.

Jacobs, a former Assumption High standout and Napoleonville native, had only 33 yards on seven carries and one catch for 2 yards.

Webster, a former St. James High and LSU standout and Vacherie native, finished with five tackles, but he was a victim of an explosive Saints offensive attack that had seven different players score touchdowns.

Webster was also called for a critical pass interference play on New Orleans receiver Marques Colston, which helped the Saints take a 27-10 lead in the second quarter.

While the Saints celebrated a 5-0 record with their fans after the game, the Giants (5-1) were left stunned by the lopsided defeat in a quiet visitor's locker room.

When approached by media members for a postgame interview, Webster quickly left the locker room and headed for the team's buses.

Jacobs said it was an embarrassing performance in all phases for the Giants.

http://www.dailycomet.com/article/20091019/ARTICLES/910199971/-1/SPORTS0101?Title=Jacobs-Webster-struggle-in-return-home

bigbluedefense
10-19-2009, 01:12 PM
how does that article prove anything you claim?

it states CWeb was part of a defense that gave up 7 tds. so all of em are his fault?

and it states he had a bad PI call, which i already discussed. stop reaching.

quincyyyyy
10-19-2009, 02:33 PM
how does that article prove anything you claim?

it states CWeb was part of a defense that gave up 7 tds. so all of em are his fault?

and it states he had a bad PI call, which i already discussed. stop reaching.

First of all the article says Webster played poorly, and apparently Webster agreed which is why he ran away from the media. Moreover, the article never said the PI call was bad. Wow, not only are you delusional but you are hallucinating as well...

Forenci
10-19-2009, 02:52 PM
First of all the article says Webster played poorly, and apparently Webster agreed which is why he ran away from the media. Moreover, the article never said the PI call was bad. Wow, not only are you delusional but you are hallucinating as well...

Oh because using a Lousiana based paper as your source is SO unbias. Yeah I'm sure they would say the PI call was awful (which if you actually saw the game you would know it was). Also Webster wasn't the problem. Try watching the game before you make stupid comments. We played zone most of the game and he was typically playing underneath, thus putting the blame on the safety.

So the article says he struggles and they didn't reference any times he actually struggled. Lets blindly believe a bias newpapers believe it though.

I wish I could give you more negative rep, but sadly I've already done it too recently.

bigbluedefense
10-19-2009, 03:34 PM
NFL Live just broke down why the Giants got rocked. Just like Ive been saying in the Giants forum, they just exposed the middle of the field all game.

They exposed CC Brown and our LBs in coverage. Its not rocket science. Without Boley and KP going on IR, it was money in the bank.

They ran deep posts the entire game. Thats why im not overly concerned about this game, bc once Boley comes back we'll be fine.

D-Unit
10-19-2009, 04:13 PM
Is quincy always wrong or am I missing something?

quincyyyyy
10-19-2009, 06:15 PM
Is quincy always wrong or am I missing something?
Bueler was an awful pick, and so was Butler. Right?

quincyyyyy
10-19-2009, 06:34 PM
NFL Live just broke down why the Giants got rocked. Just like Ive been saying in the Giants forum, they just exposed the middle of the field all game.

They exposed CC Brown and our LBs in coverage. Its not rocket science. Without Boley and KP going on IR, it was money in the bank.

They ran deep posts the entire game. Thats why im not overly concerned about this game, bc once Boley comes back we'll be fine.

Didn't see that, but considering your rather heavy bias as evidenced by your reaction to the article I posted, I can't say your word is enough for me.

quincyyyyy
10-19-2009, 06:36 PM
Oh because using a Lousiana based paper as your source is SO unbias. Yeah I'm sure they would say the PI call was awful (which if you actually saw the game you would know it was). Also Webster wasn't the problem. Try watching the game before you make stupid comments. We played zone most of the game and he was typically playing underneath, thus putting the blame on the safety.

So the article says he struggles and they didn't reference any times he actually struggled. Lets blindly believe a bias newpapers believe it though.

I wish I could give you more negative rep, but sadly I've already done it too recently.
I watched the game from beginning to end.

Anyhow, so if there is a mistake in coverage in a zone it is always the safety's fault? Right... :rolleyes:

bigbluedefense
10-19-2009, 06:38 PM
Didn't see that, but considering your rather heavy bias as evidenced by your reaction to the article I posted, I can't say your word is enough for me.

Im sure somebody else can verify my statement.

Its not bias at all, I rip guys on my team who deserve to get ripped. Your account of what actually happened just happens to be very inaccurate.

They even shown a play where CC gave up a TD that Web made a tackle on. It was quarters coverage, the WR runs a deep post at CC, and Web tries to recover and break off his quarter to stop the play, but its too late.

But I guess ESPN is lying too of course. *sarcasm*

bdawk#1
10-19-2009, 06:51 PM
i voted for sheldon brown!

Go_Eagles77
10-30-2009, 09:40 PM
Interesting stat - QBs get a QB rating of 27.8 when they throw in Corey Webster's direction, which is good enough for 2nd best in the league. The only CB ranked ahead of him in this aspect? Sheldon Brown. QBs throwing in his direction get a QB rating of 2.3, by far the best in the league. Can you say under-rated?

http://profootballfocus.com/by_position.php?tab=&season=2009&pos=CB&stype=r&runpass=&teamid=-1&numsnaps=25&numgames=1

Giantsfan1080
10-31-2009, 12:22 AM
Sheldon Brown is excellent. It's very close between Webster and him.

Rosebud
10-31-2009, 12:06 PM
Interesting stat - QBs get a QB rating of 27.8 when they throw in Corey Webster's direction, which is good enough for 2nd best in the league. The only CB ranked ahead of him in this aspect? Sheldon Brown. QBs throwing in his direction get a QB rating of 2.3, by far the best in the league. Can you say under-rated?

http://profootballfocus.com/by_position.php?tab=&season=2009&pos=CB&stype=r&runpass=&teamid=-1&numsnaps=25&numgames=1

yeah, had I not voted for Web I would've voted for Sheldon and am baffled by how people can vote for Asante over him.

Thumper
11-01-2009, 06:50 PM
Umm...

Today Corey Webster was burned for 2 touchdowns, he completely blew his coverage on DeSean Jackson's touchdown, Jeremy Maclin made an amazing grab over Webster for the TD and in addition on Shady McCoy's big TD run he was a non factor and he was the only defender down field and he was blocked by Maclin. Not a good day for Webster.

And the reason I voted for Samuel is because he is a great corner as well, he isn't as shutdown as Sheldon but Asante is the much better playmaker and is much more clutch, Samuel is one of the best ever in the postseason. I like Asante more just because of his big play ability but he is not slouch in coverage either, last season here are his numbers:Season Totals:
78 attempts, 6.51 YPA, 41.03 Forced INC%, 3 TDs, 4 INTs (via KC Joyner)

Those are great numbers, good for 20th in the NFL last season.

quincyyyyy
11-01-2009, 07:13 PM
Umm...

Today Corey Webster was burned for 2 touchdowns, he completely blew his coverage on DeSean Jackson's touchdown, Jeremy Maclin made an amazing grab over Webster for the TD and in addition on Shady McCoy's big TD run he was a non factor and he was the only defender down field and he was blocked by Maclin. Not a good day for Webster.


exactly overrated.

Giantsfan1080
11-01-2009, 07:19 PM
Umm...

Today Corey Webster was burned for 2 touchdowns, he completely blew his coverage on DeSean Jackson's touchdown, Jeremy Maclin made an amazing grab over Webster for the TD and in addition on Shady McCoy's big TD run he was a non factor and he was the only defender down field and he was blocked by Maclin. Not a good day for Webster.

And the reason I voted for Samuel is because he is a great corner as well, he isn't as shutdown as Sheldon but Asante is the much better playmaker and is much more clutch, Samuel is one of the best ever in the postseason. I like Asante more just because of his big play ability but he is not slouch in coverage either, last season here are his numbers:Season Totals:
78 attempts, 6.51 YPA, 41.03 Forced INC%, 3 TDs, 4 INTs (via KC Joyner)

Those are great numbers, good for 20th in the NFL last season.

Wrong. The Webster TD to Jackson was actually Brown's fault. You could tell Webster thought Brown would be covering over the top and he totally gave up the route. The coverage scheme was for Brown to pick up the WR on a deep play. The Maclin play was on Webster but it was more of Maclin making a great play than Webster doing anything wrong. The ball was thrown up and Maclin was physical and made the play. Webster was in the right place and had a hand in there but he couldn't knock the ball out. Also, Webster made a very good place against Jackson earlier in the game in the endzone. The ball was in DeSean's hands and Webster knocked it out saving the TD.

Giantsfan1080
11-01-2009, 07:20 PM
I don't understand why Cowboy trolls are around to roam free with no repurcussions.

Thumper
11-01-2009, 07:26 PM
Wrong. The Webster TD to Jackson was actually Brown's fault. You could tell Webster thought Brown would be covering over the top and he totally gave up the route. The coverage scheme was for Brown to pick up the WR on a deep play. The Maclin play was on Webster but it was more of Maclin making a great play than Webster doing anything wrong. The ball was thrown up and Maclin was physical and made the play. Webster was in the right place and had a hand in there but he couldn't knock the ball out. Also, Webster made a very good place against Jackson earlier in the game in the endzone. The ball was in DeSean's hands and Webster knocked it out saving the TD.

Yeah, I initially thought that play was on Webster just because I saw him fall of DeSean and I thought he bit on a fake or McNabb baited him with his eyes or something, but after some reviewing the Giants were running Tampa-2 and the play was definitely on the safety, my bad.

And on the Maclin play, that was more Maclin but still it contributes to a bad day, great coverage but Webster just couldn't break it up, unlucky break kind of the story of the Giants game.

And yeah, the troll needs to go.

Giantsfan1080
11-01-2009, 07:51 PM
Yeah, I initially thought that play was on Webster just because I saw him fall of DeSean and I thought he bit on a fake or McNabb baited him with his eyes or something, but after some reviewing the Giants were running Tampa-2 and the play was definitely on the safety, my bad.

And on the Maclin play, that was more Maclin but still it contributes to a bad day, great coverage but Webster just couldn't break it up, unlucky break kind of the story of the Giants game.

And yeah, the troll needs to go.

Yeah thanks for owning up. I was so impressed with Maclin on that TD that I'm pretty sure you have 2 beasts for the next 10 years. I thought Jackson and Maclin were two similar WR's but Maclin is a lot more tough and physical than I thought. I know he's a speedster but he is a different WR than Jackson.

Go_Eagles77
11-01-2009, 08:03 PM
Hakeem Nicks had a great play on Sheldon Brown as well but just like the Maclin play it was more of a great play by the WR than a bad play by the CB.

Giantsfan1080
11-01-2009, 08:07 PM
Hakeem Nicks had a great play on Sheldon Brown as well but just like the Maclin play it was more of a great play by the WR than a bad play by the CB.

Yup, as I said I think Brown and Webster are very very close. They are similar CB's but of course we're going to go with our hometown players.

quincyyyyy
11-01-2009, 08:57 PM
Yup, as I said I think Brown and Webster are very very close. They are similar CB's but of course we're going to go with our hometown players.

How did your boy Eli Manning play today? Still think he is not overrated?

Rosebud
11-01-2009, 09:23 PM
How did your boy Eli Manning play today? Still think he is not overrated?

Unsuccessful troll is unsuccessful.

quincyyyyy
11-01-2009, 09:29 PM
Unsuccessful troll is unsuccessful.

Do you still think Eli Manning is better than Romo?

Go_Eagles77
11-01-2009, 09:33 PM
Do you still think Eli Manning is better than Romo?
Because 1 game is proof of how good a player is. What did you say after Tony Romo and the cowboys lost to the eagles 44-6 last year?

Thumper
11-01-2009, 09:33 PM
Wait until December, then we'll see how good Romo is. :D

superman8456
11-01-2009, 09:38 PM
Sheldon Brown got ****** out of an INT by the refs. Our DB's played a really solid game against the Giants, but damn we were so inconsistent against Steve Smith.

Giantsfan1080
11-01-2009, 09:41 PM
Sheldon Brown got ****** out of an INT by the refs. Our DB's played a really solid game against the Giants, but damn we were so inconsistent against Steve Smith.

It was within 5 yards but Eli had already released the ball and Brown was still holding barely. Not that it mattered but we got screwed out of that defensive TD by Osi. There was no visual evidence to overturn that call.

superman8456
11-01-2009, 09:43 PM
It was within 5 yards but Eli had already released the ball and Brown was still holding barely. Not that it mattered but we got screwed out of that defensive TD by Osi. There was no visual evidence to overturn that call.

I was at the game and I didnt see the replay of that Osi TD, so I cant really say, but it looked clean from my angle.

Kenny Phillips replacement was struggling hard.

Giantsfan1080
11-01-2009, 09:58 PM
I was at the game and I didnt see the replay of that Osi TD, so I cant really say, but it looked clean from my angle.

Kenny Phillips replacement was struggling hard.

Yeah he is terrible. There is nothing else to say.

M.O.T.H.
11-01-2009, 11:05 PM
Should be able to add Mike Jenkins to the short list after this year. Hopefully, that is. :) He's probably our best DB right now. Teams are starting to avoid his side completely for long stretches. He's real tough to beat and he just keeps getting better and better. He's looking like that lock down corner. It will be interesting to see how well he plays against the Eagles and Packers in the next two weeks. He has been quite impressive up to this point.

Giantsfan1080
11-01-2009, 11:23 PM
Should be able to add Mike Jenkins to the short list after this year. Hopefully, that is. :) He's probably our best DB right now. Teams are starting to avoid his side completely for long stretches. He's real tough to beat and he just keeps getting better and better. He's looking like that lock down corner. It will be interesting to see how well he plays against the Eagles and Packers in the next two weeks. He has been quite impressive up to this point.

Is he switching sides to the best WR or is he just playing whoever is on his side of the field?

M.O.T.H.
11-01-2009, 11:36 PM
Is he switching sides to the best WR or is he just playing whoever is on his side of the field?

It depends...he has spent time doing both. Shadowing their best receiver or just standing pat. You should start seeing a lot more of him shadowing the best receiver. He's playing tremendously, regardless of who he is defending. I may be jumping the gun a bit but, his future is looking mighty bright.

Giantsfan1080
11-01-2009, 11:38 PM
It depends...he has spent time doing both. Shadowing their best receiver or just standing pat. You should start seeing a lot more of him shadowing the best receiver. He's playing tremendously, regardless of who he is defending. I may be jumping the gun a bit but, his future is looking mighty bright.

You can tell when a CB is taking a step to the next level. I'm going to keep an eye on him more now.

eaglesalltheway
11-02-2009, 12:26 AM
Wrong. The Webster TD to Jackson was actually Brown's fault. You could tell Webster thought Brown would be covering over the top and he totally gave up the route. The coverage scheme was for Brown to pick up the WR on a deep play. The Maclin play was on Webster but it was more of Maclin making a great play than Webster doing anything wrong. The ball was thrown up and Maclin was physical and made the play. Webster was in the right place and had a hand in there but he couldn't knock the ball out. Also, Webster made a very good place against Jackson earlier in the game in the endzone. The ball was in DeSean's hands and Webster knocked it out saving the TD.

Agreed. Webster did well today, it was just a matter of his opponent doing better, and some luck...

Giantsfan1080
11-02-2009, 12:29 AM
Agreed. Webster did well today, it was just a matter of his opponent doing better, and some luck...

The more I see the Jackson TD the worse it gets for Brown. He sees Jackson wide open at the 32 yard line with the ball still not thrown yet he decides to start taking the diagnol route for a tackle. Next thing he knows he's at the 20 but Jackson is so fast that he's 7 yards behind.

eaglesalltheway
11-02-2009, 12:31 AM
The more I see the Jackson TD the worse it gets for Brown. He sees Jackson wide open at the 32 yard line with the ball still not thrown yet he decides to start taking the diagnol route for a tackle. Next thing he knows he's at the 20 but Jackson is so fast that he's 7 yards behind.

Speed can make great players look bad. So what classification does brown fall from in to? lol

Giantsfan1080
11-02-2009, 12:35 AM
Speed can make great players look bad. So what classification does brown fall from in to? lol

Hmm he can't cover and he also takes bad routes on bad passes. He's supposed to cover the run well but we're starting to blitz him more to hide him from the pass that teams are running when they see that.

Rosebud
11-02-2009, 01:22 AM
Hmm he can't cover and he also takes bad routes on bad passes. He's supposed to cover the run well but we're starting to blitz him more to hide him from the pass that teams are running when they see that.

I just can't wait until we get ross and boley back, boley helps shut down the middle in the passing game and with all of our corners we'll be able to sub a corner in for brown in passing situations.

D-Unit
11-02-2009, 01:24 AM
I just can't wait until we get ross and boley back, boley helps shut down the middle in the passing game and with all of our corners we'll be able to sub a corner in for brown in passing situations.
Giants fans overrate both players. You guys got problems and it ain't just missing those 2.

Giantsfan1080
11-02-2009, 01:26 AM
Giants fans overrate both players. You guys got problems and it ain't just missing those 2.

I somewhat agree. I've been saying it all day. We didn't have them last year yet our defense was above average. I'm starting to think Spags was even more of a difference than I realized.

Rosebud
11-02-2009, 01:29 AM
Giants fans overrate both players. You guys got problems and it ain't just missing those 2.

Oh I know that those 2 won't turn us into the 2001 baltimore ravens, but the middle of the field is badly exposed a lot of the time and Boley takes care of that problem. And our DTs are getting pushed around in the run game, so Canty not only gives us another healthy body in the middle to keep cofield, bernard and robbens fresher, but is also by far our best run stuffing DT. Simply put they'll help with our biggest problems even though they might not be the whole solution.

Rosebud
11-02-2009, 01:30 AM
I somewhat agree. I've been saying it all day. We didn't have them last year yet our defense was above average. I'm starting to think Spags was even more of a difference than I realized.

Spags was really great for us, there's a reason I so desperately wanted Coughlin to retire and let spags succeed him here.

Giantsfan1080
11-02-2009, 01:33 AM
Spags was really great for us, there's a reason I so desperately wanted Coughlin to retire and let spags succeed him here.

I wanted Spags to stay big time but I still didn't think he was THAT big a difference. Looking at it now though we need him back.

Rosebud
11-02-2009, 01:38 AM
I wanted Spags to stay big time but I still didn't think he was THAT big a difference. Looking at it now though we need him back.

I wish you could put Sheridan's coverage schemes together with spags' pressure schemes and play calling. You'd have a great defensive co-ordinator. I still think it's more on Robbens having had a great season last year and reverting to norm this year as well as the rest of our DT core being more worn out this year, on top of an Offense that just isn't dominating with the run the way we were which was huge since it forced offense to play catch up which played right into the hands of our D.

bigbluedefense
11-02-2009, 11:00 AM
Giants fans overrate both players. You guys got problems and it ain't just missing those 2.

Ross yes.

Boley. Absolutely not. Boley is going to make a huge difference in our pass defense. Our CBs held it down yesterday, it was our safeties and LBs that got killed.

But once Boley comes back, we won't run as much Cover 2. You'll see a huge difference in our pass defense when he comes back.


But like you're eluding to, the real issue with this defense is rush defense. And that won't change with those additions. So unless Canty plays like 2008 Albert Haynesworth, we're in trouble in rush defense.

HEISMANHERSCHEL
11-02-2009, 12:37 PM
First off, Asante is in the discussion. No one should act like he is not. He is really good.

And as for Mike Jenkins-he is not on this level yet. I wish he was, but he just aint.

bigbluedefense
11-02-2009, 12:41 PM
First off, Asante is in the discussion. No one should act like he is not. He is really good.

And as for Mike Jenkins-he is not on this level yet. I wish he was, but he just aint.

Sheldon Brown is by far their best CB though.

As much as Giants fans pimp Corey Webster, Brown is playing just as good.

Id say right here right now, the top CBs in the league are:

1. Nmandi Asomugah
2. Darrell Revis
3. Corey Webster
3. Sheldon Brown

Im gonna make it a tie between Web and Brown, bc Brown hasn't gone against a Larry Fitzgerald/DeSean Jackson like WR yet.

And before ppl point out DJax, he got his 1 long pass on CC Brown on a busted Cover 2 play. CWeb held him to 1 quick slant for 8 yards.

Maclin made an amazing catch on CWeb though. It was perfectly defended, but it was the perfect throw and catch. His first TD pass he's given up since Week 9 of last year according to Mike Garrafalo.

Giantsfan1080
11-02-2009, 12:44 PM
Sheldon Brown is by far their best CB though.

As much as Giants fans pimp Corey Webster, Brown is playing just as good.

Id say right here right now, the top CBs in the league are:

1. Nmandi Asomugah
2. Darrell Revis
3. Corey Webster
3. Sheldon Brown

Im gonna make it a tie between Web and Brown, bc Brown hasn't gone against a Larry Fitzgerald/DeSean Jackson like WR yet.

And before ppl point out DJax, he got his 1 long pass on CC Brown on a busted Cover 2 play. CWeb held him to 1 quick slant for 8 yards.

Maclin made an amazing catch on CWeb though. It was perfectly defended, but it was the perfect throw and catch. His first TD pass he's given up since Week 9 of last year according to Mike Garrafalo.

I pretty much said all the same stuff on the last page. Webster was very good yesterday as always. He made a great play on Jackson in the end zone to save a TD early in the game don't forget.

bigbluedefense
11-02-2009, 12:46 PM
I pretty much said all the same stuff on the last page. Webster was very good yesterday as always. He made a great play on Jackson in the end zone to save a TD early in the game don't forget.

CWeb and TT both shut down their guys. Our CB duo is nasty.

The issue is our LBs without Boley are doo doo and so are our safeties.

M.O.T.H.
11-02-2009, 01:35 PM
First off, Asante is in the discussion. No one should act like he is not. He is really good.

And as for Mike Jenkins-he is not on this level yet. I wish he was, but he just aint.

I wouldnt add Mike until the season has all but ended. He's on his way but, yeah he's not there yet. Tis a tough group to get in.

D-Unit
11-02-2009, 01:44 PM
I somewhat agree. I've been saying it all day. We didn't have them last year yet our defense was above average. I'm starting to think Spags was even more of a difference than I realized.
That's it right there. I think you guys underestimated his departure. We all talked about it in the preseason, but you tried to deny it based off the talent on paper that you guys had.

What's odd is that I thought the Eagles losing JJ would hurt them more than losing Spags would hurt you.

Giantsfan1080
11-02-2009, 02:00 PM
That's it right there. I think you guys underestimated his departure. We all talked about it in the preseason, but you tried to deny it based off the talent on paper that you guys had.

What's odd is that I thought the Eagles losing JJ would hurt them more than losing Spags would hurt you.

It's not like we wanted Spags out of here. I'm pretty sure there is not one Giants fans that had anything bad to say about him. With that said it looked like Sheridan was going to be a very similarly styled D-Coordinator but it hasn't worked out that way.

bigbluedefense
11-02-2009, 02:10 PM
To be fair to Sheridan, he does do some things that I like. His coverage integrity schemes are actually better than Spags.

Whats hurting him is the lack of discipline from the defense, lack of experience, his simplified fronts of Spags defense, his pressure packages just aren't as creative as Spags, and rush defense, which Im not sure if you can really put on him.

He's done some things coverage wise that was pretty nifty though. Like dropping TT back as a Cover 2 MIKE in some plays against Arizona.

Using TT to cover TEs.

Basically, everything he does with TT. TT is so versatile, and Sheridan does a good job of taking advantage of that in coverage.

Go_Eagles77
11-02-2009, 02:13 PM
What's odd is that I thought the Eagles losing JJ would hurt them more than losing Spags would hurt you.
Luckily for us, like Spags, Sean McDermott was taught well by JJ and runs a very similar (almost identical) defensive scheme. I hope he can stick around as D-Coordinator for more than a couple years though.

D-Unit
11-02-2009, 02:36 PM
Sheldon Brown is by far their best CB though.

As much as Giants fans pimp Corey Webster, Brown is playing just as good.

Id say right here right now, the top CBs in the league are:

1. Nmandi Asomugah
2. Darrell Revis
3. Corey Webster
3. Sheldon Brown

Im gonna make it a tie between Web and Brown, bc Brown hasn't gone against a Larry Fitzgerald/DeSean Jackson like WR yet.

And before ppl point out DJax, he got his 1 long pass on CC Brown on a busted Cover 2 play. CWeb held him to 1 quick slant for 8 yards.

Maclin made an amazing catch on CWeb though. It was perfectly defended, but it was the perfect throw and catch. His first TD pass he's given up since Week 9 of last year according to Mike Garrafalo.

Here's mine. Before I start I know it sounds like near blasphemy not to list Nnamdi Asomugha #1, but I'm not.

1. DRC
2. Nnamdi Asomugha
3. Darrelle Revis
4. Asante Samuel
5. Nate Clements

NFC East

1. Asante Samuel
2. Corey Webster
3. Sheldon Brown
4. Mike Jenkins
5. Terrell Thomas

bigbluedefense
11-02-2009, 02:42 PM
Here's mine. Before I start I know it sounds like near blasphemy not to list Nnamdi Asomugha #1, but I'm not.

1. DRC
2. Nnamdi Asomugha
3. Darrelle Revis
4. Asante Samuel
5. Nate Clements

NFC East

1. Asante Samuel
2. Corey Webster
3. Sheldon Brown
4. Mike Jenkins
5. Terrell Thomas

Oooh, i disagree with this bro. DRC is in no way the best in the league. Hes gotten bitched quite a few times. I love him, love his potential, but he's no way the best in the league.

Nate Clements is underrated at this point, i like his mention, but im not sure if id put him top 5.

As for the East, Brown and CWeb are both better than Asante, Asante gambles too much.

And I like Jenkins, I wanted him in that draft, but TT is better right now. They could become neck and neck in the future though. But I don't think ppl realize how well TT has played this year. Our CB duo in general. You can't throw against our CBs in man coverage...either of them.

TT would be a lockdown #1 CB on most teams in the league.

Thumper
11-02-2009, 02:44 PM
Here's mine. Before I start I know it sounds like near blasphemy not to list Nnamdi Asomugha #1, but I'm not.

1. DRC
2. Nnamdi Asomugha
3. Darrelle Revis
4. Asante Samuel
5. Nate Clements

NFC East

1. Asante Samuel
2. Corey Webster
3. Sheldon Brown
4. Mike Jenkins
5. Terrell Thomas

I agree with the NFC East list but you're NFL list is questionable. DRC has given up 5 touchdowns this season and Nate Clements was recently benched in favor of Tarell Brown.

D-Unit
11-02-2009, 02:52 PM
I agree with the NFC East list but you're NFL list is questionable. DRC has given up 5 touchdowns this season and Nate Clements was recently benched in favor of Tarell Brown.
Oh ok. Didn't know that. Screw my list. :p

Sniper
11-02-2009, 06:14 PM
As for the East, Brown and CWeb are both better than Asante, Asante gambles too much.

That's what he gets the big bucks for.

bigbluedefense
11-02-2009, 06:46 PM
That's what he gets the big bucks for.

It was much needed in Philly. You guys needed a turnover guy in that secondary. I just prefer my INT guys to be safeties, I prefer the coverage CBs like the Browns and the Websters of the world.

Just a personal preference.

Thumper
11-02-2009, 06:55 PM
That's what he gets the big bucks for.

And it isn't like Asante is bad, he always plays the #1 receiver and he does a good job. He was beaten by Marques Colston and that is it. You can look at all the metrics you want, but those don't really apply to Asante Samuel since it is hard to judge him based off those metric just because Asante is in zone coverage more often than not so it isn't set in stone as to who his coverage responsibility is and in general not everything can be broken down to a metric because unlike baseball everything in football is dependent on the team not the individual.

But from the games I've watched this season the only receiver who has beaten Asante has been Colston. Other than that he has shut down Steve Smith in Carolina, shut down the receivers of the Buccaneers, Chiefs, Redskins and Raiders and he did a nice job of playing against Steve Smith against the Giants and held him in check most of the game.

Asante Samuel is a good corner when it comes to taking his receiver out of the game, he is better than most. And he might be the best ball-hawking corner in the NFL, nobody baits the QB, breaks on the ball and gets their hands on more balls. Asante Samuel led the NFL is passes defended last season and is currently tied for third amongst corners. And in the past 3 1/2 regulard seasons, Asante Samuel has 25 interceptions, 60 passes defended, 2 touchdowns and if you add in the post season, that total jumps to 30 interceptions, 74 passes defended and 5 touchdowns. In 3.5 seasons, those would be great career numbers for most players.

bigbluedefense
11-02-2009, 06:58 PM
I haven't seen enough of the Eagles to say this with conviction, but from what ive gathered, it seems like the Eagles leave Asante in bracket coverage a lot, and leave Sheldon on an island a lot.

Like, they'll give Asante that safety up top bc it gives him more opportunities to jump routes and gamble, which is what he does best.

Sheldon however, is usually left on an island and has to fend for himself.

I could be wrong, I need to see more tape to confirm it. That was just a quick observation on my part.

Maybe an Eagles fan can confirm or deny it?

Thumper
11-02-2009, 07:08 PM
Fair assumption, he doesn't get help every play but he does get it more often than Sheldon but that is the scheme, Asante is one of the best zone corners in the NFL and the Eagles put him in zone a lot more than they do with Sheldon and that typically means there is safety help over the top.

Also it isn't really a fault of Asante that this occurs, it is simply the Eagles defensive coaches putting Asante in a position to do what he does best.

bigbluedefense
11-02-2009, 07:10 PM
Fair assumption, he doesn't get help every play but he does get it more often than Sheldon but that is the scheme, Asante is one of the best zone corners in the NFL and the Eagles put him in zone a lot more than they do with Sheldon and that typically means there is safety help over the top.

Also it isn't really a fault of Asante that this occurs, it is simply the Eagles defensive coaches putting Asante in a position to do what he does best.

Outsiders don't realize it bc they think exclusive man coverage with a 46 style defense, but the Eagles really are more of a ZB team than a man coverage team.

They do rely a lot on man as well though bc they run so much zero blitz. But more often than not, they run ZB.

I guess you can say theyre a mix of the 2, just like the Giants.

Asante is the perfect Cover 2 CB though. He fits in with what the Eagles do, but his best scheme is a Cover 2. He'd get 10 INTs a season in that scheme.

Thumper
11-02-2009, 07:16 PM
Outsiders don't realize it bc they think exclusive man coverage with a 46 style defense, but the Eagles really are more of a ZB team than a man coverage team.

They do rely a lot on man as well though bc they run so much zero blitz. But more often than not, they run ZB.

I guess you can say theyre a mix of the 2, just like the Giants.

Asante is the perfect Cover 2 CB though. He fits in with what the Eagles do, but his best scheme is a Cover 2. He'd get 10 INTs a season in that scheme.

Asante gets his hands on a ridiculous amount of footballs, and he drops so many interceptions, he must've dropped 2 or 3 already this season. He might have some of the worst hands of any CB in the NFL but he breaks so well and he reads the eyes of the CB so well that he just gets so many more opportunities than other corners. The interception he dropped in the super-bowl against the Giants is a perfect example of this, he does that often.

And personally I think the Eagles scheme is ideal for him, he plays in zone less than he would if he were in the Tampa-2 but the ZBS is also more attacking and it forces more quick decisions, throws off the back foot, errant throws and just overall it forces mistakes and Asante is the best guy in the NFL to take advantage of those mistakes.

BuffaloBillsFan
11-07-2009, 03:51 PM
Sheldon Brown, imo.

D-Unit
11-08-2009, 10:52 PM
Sheldon Brown, imo.
Not tonight.

Mike Jenkins continues to prove legitimacy. He and Terrell Thomas are the next best up and comers.

brat316
11-08-2009, 11:12 PM
Whats happening with Webster now, he is getting abused out there. Is it because there is not enough pressure off the line now?

quincyyyyy
11-08-2009, 11:32 PM
Austin burnt Brown for a long td that sealed the game. While Mike Jenkins shined with two ints. Ha!

Thumper
11-09-2009, 12:02 AM
Austin burnt Brown for a long td that sealed the game. While Mike Jenkins shined with two ints. Ha!

I thought you were gone, dammit. Anyways, that was Browns only TD given up all season, Jenkins has surrendered 2 touchdowns and in addition I'm not really sure what game you watched, but the one I saw (and the one everyone else saw) was the one where Mike Jenkins had one interception and Sheldon had 1 as well.

quincyyyyy
11-09-2009, 08:17 AM
fffffffffffffff

SeanTaylorRIP
11-09-2009, 08:54 AM
Lol I love everytime one of them is burnt people come running here to proclaim they are now not the best. Really who cares. The top 3 are Webster, Brown, and Asante, all who make mistakes once in a while because all 3 of them are fringe top 5-10 CB's but not I don't think any of them are in the elite 2 or 3 category in the league.

Go_Eagles77
11-09-2009, 09:30 AM
That's fair, but to be a homer, that really was the first time Sheldon was burnt like that in years as far as I can remember. I still wouldn't call hiim a top 2-3 corner though.

bigbluedefense
11-09-2009, 09:37 AM
Vincent Jackson is the first WR to own CWeb. Web just isn't big enough to cover Jackson.

Jackson is the new Plax. The guy is huge, strong, fast, he's pretty much uncoverable.


Right now, I gotta give it to Sheldon Brown.

Like D said though, Terrell Thomas is developing into a stud. I love Terrell Thomas.

Jenkins is looking good too.

brat316
11-09-2009, 09:40 AM
Yeah I like Thomas' play. Nah also last week against the Eagles Maclin had that TD grab on him. I thought for sure he would have slapped it out of Maclin's hands.

Go_Eagles77
11-09-2009, 09:42 AM
I kinda want the eagles to draft a young stud like Webster/Jenkins/Thomas next year that can be a great nickel back until Brown leaves. Joe Haden would be great.

bigbluedefense
11-09-2009, 09:44 AM
Yeah I like Thomas' play. Nah also last week against the Eagles Maclin had that TD grab on him. I thought for sure he would have slapped it out of Maclin's hands.

Yeah, I forgot about that. But that play was impossible to defend. Web played it perfectly, but you can't defend against a perfect pass/catch.

Im not the most experienced guy in the world, but having played FS and CB, every now and then you just get the perfect pass thrown at you, and no matter how well you covered it, theres no way to defend it.

Its kind of like playing textbook defense on a guy in basketball, and him still getting the shot. You can do everything right sometimes, and still have the guy score on you.

It happens.

M.O.T.H.
11-09-2009, 10:05 AM
The thing we keep reiterating with Jenkins, is confidence. A year ago, he may get a little upset or rattled after that illegal contact flag he had yesterday. Not anymore. He just looked unfazed, starts bobbing his head and gets right back in there and makes a play. haha. His confidence is through the roof, just like it was when he played for USF. Jenkins is legit and he hasnt been beat in a very long time. He just keeps getting better and better still. The potential here, is outstanding. I believe LL said it yesterday as well, he is our best DB right now.

Go_Eagles77
11-09-2009, 10:21 AM
I remember when it looked like Orlando Scandrick was the better of the two. Scandrick still looks pretty good, but Jenkins is starting to show why he was a 1st round pick. I might even take him over McKelvin, DRC, and Talib, who were all picked ahead of Jenkins and have all shown flashes, but can all get burnt too.

bigbluedefense
11-09-2009, 10:25 AM
I loved Jenkins coming out. I actually wanted the Giants to move up and get him in that draft.

I loved Jenkins, Cason, DRC, Porter and Flowers. Didn't really know much about TT.

I'm very pleased with what we have though. TT might be my 3rd favorite defender on the team.

The Cowboys needed Jenkins to step up, now that TNew is washed up. Thats been the difference in that defense. It relies on a shutdown CB, and for the first couple of weeks, they didn't have one.

Go_Eagles77
11-09-2009, 10:33 AM
That was definitely a great CB class. Most of them selected in the first couple rounds are not only starters, but are very solid corners.

Round 1
Leodis McKelvin
Dominique Roders-Cromartie
Aquib Talib
Mike Jenkins
Antoine Cason

Round 2
Brandon Flowers
Tracy Porter
Patrick Lee
Terrence Wheatley
Terrell Thomas

Round 3
Charles Godfrey
Chevis Jackson
Reggie Smith
Antwuan Molden

Round 4
Tyvon Branch
Justin King
Dwight Lowery
Reggie Corner
Jack Williams
Justin Tryon
Jonathan Wilhite
Jack Ikegwuonu

Round 5
Brandon Carr
Zack Bowman
Orlando Scandrick
Trae Williams

Round 6
DeJuan Tribble

Round 7
Wilrey Fontenot
Cary Williams
Kennard Cox

The bolded are the ones that to my knowledge have all had very solid contributions to their teams, some like Pat Lee, Reggie Smith and Jonathan Wilhite I'm not too sure about. Damn why couldn't Jack Ikegwuonu turn out to be a player?

D-Unit
11-09-2009, 11:45 AM
I have never seen Newman make an INT the way Jenkins did yesterday. But not to disrespect Newman... he had many a great day in the past. He's just no longer what he used to be. I wonder if moving him to Safety wouldn't be a bad idea. That could solve our FS needs momentarily and allow Scandrick more playing time. Jenkins has definitely emerged as hoped, but Scandrick is still going to be a key player for us in the long term future. He's better than being given credit for right now.

I'd love to see us draft a corner... Syd'Quan Thompson currently has my heart locked up.

LonghornsLegend
11-09-2009, 05:05 PM
I remember when it looked like Orlando Scandrick was the better of the two. Scandrick still looks pretty good, but Jenkins is starting to show why he was a 1st round pick. I might even take him over McKelvin, DRC, and Talib, who were all picked ahead of Jenkins and have all shown flashes, but can all get burnt too.

It was one of those situations where Scandrick came out more ready to play immediately, but never had the potential for greatness that Jenkins did. Scandrick was out playing him for most of last year, and it was even this year, and while Scandrick has continued to be solid in the slot Jenkins hasn't looked back. Jenkins has even gotten 10x more physical with running through RB's now when we all now that wasn't his forte' last year at all.


Talib has been good but he is in the perfect fit, if he was in our scheme being asked to play man as much as Jenkins is(or really any corner in our scheme) he would struggle heavily. He gets to face the QB quite a bit in Tampa and make reads, he's always been great at that, but the off the field stuff would of gotten way more attention in Dallas.


DRC physically is still the best, just like he showed at the combine, but almost like his cousin he makes the big play then gives up the big play. I still almost always see him with blanket coverage though, and he still has some growth.


McKelvin looked very good in what I did see of him, almost all of us Dallas fans wanted him here and for good reason. Cason I heard got demoted recently after starting good, Flowers is a stud and I wanted him if Jenkins is gone, and so is Porter, a really deep class. Let's see how the season plays out for some of the younger guys.



Webster is still a beast at Corner, but Jackson is a monster and it wasn't even fair. I have no clue who we are going to put on him, or how we plan on covering him, but it wasn't working out well for NY. Still he's a top 5 WR in the league, no shame in getting beat by a player of his caliber.



I want to see Jenkins go up against Colston and Jackson before crowning him, at this point he's just made some very good progression week to week and it's nice to have a corner who can cover but actually has great ball skills.


I really, really want to see Aaron Ross get back to 100% for NY though, he was another corner who had great ball skills and can be a play-maker at corner. Still see no reason why Webster isn't the best corner right now, but I would have no problem throwing Jenkins name out there if he can handle his own vs Colston and Jackson later this year.

herniateddisc
11-09-2009, 05:06 PM
Mike Jenkins right now is the best.

LonghornsLegend
11-09-2009, 05:09 PM
Let me just add, that I hope Cowboy fans(not necessarily here, just in general) don't start hyping up Jenkins way too fast and pre maturely so much that he'll start to get called overrated. But alot of people thought he had all the tools to be an elite lock down corner at the next level, he just needed someone to push his buttons and get the most out of him.

Go_Eagles77
11-09-2009, 08:27 PM
Let me just add, that I hope Cowboy fans(not necessarily here, just in general) don't start hyping up Jenkins way too fast and pre maturely so much that he'll start to get called overrated. But alot of people thought he had all the tools to be an elite lock down corner at the next level, he just needed someone to push his buttons and get the most out of him.
Did you post this before or after you saw the post above yours? Haha. Like I said, I like Jenkins a lot, but at this point I wouldn't put him above Brown, Webster, or even Samuel.

As a side note, I love the fact that Deangelo Hall isn't even remotely in this discussion, typical redskins.

SeanTaylorRIP
11-09-2009, 08:31 PM
Did you post this before or after you saw the post above yours? Haha. Like I said, I like Jenkins a lot, but at this point I wouldn't put him above Brown, Webster, or even Samuel.

As a side note, I love the fact that Deangelo Hall isn't even remotely in this discussion, typical redskins.

Why would he be in the discussion? He's the worst DB on our roster and wouldn't be playing if it weren't for his contract. There isn't a single DB on the Skins worth mentioning in the NFC East. Smoot is the only guy but he can't stay healthy. Horton as well but our dumbass coaching staff isn't even using him full time.

danzing1488
11-09-2009, 08:40 PM
Reed Doughty ;)

Go_Eagles77
11-09-2009, 08:45 PM
Why would he be in the discussion? He's the worst DB on our roster
That's my point, I wasn't being sarcastic at all.

Thumper
11-09-2009, 11:17 PM
Reed Doughty ;)

leave it to you to pick the one white guy, stay classy.

bigbluedefense
11-10-2009, 12:08 PM
I would LOVE for the Skins to cut Chris Horton. Or even put him up for trade. Id trade a 2nd round pick for Chris Horton and not think twice about it.

He's exactly what we need at SS.

herniateddisc
11-10-2009, 02:23 PM
I will take Jenkins right now over that entire list and he is also improving. The minute he starts to get the "No-Call PI" like Asante and Brown -- it is off to the races. Put him in the Champ Bailey discussion by the end of the year.

Corey Webster is possibly not even better than Terrell Thomas. Vincent Jackson made him look bad that last play and the G-Men DB are pretty bad right now. If Webster was lock-down they would not be as bad.

Have yet to really see Rogers play this year so in all fairness I should say I dunno. DeAngelo I have sen enough to know he is really bad.

Giantsfan1080
11-10-2009, 02:31 PM
V. Jackson was the first WR to make Webster look bad since 2007. Way to base your argument off of one game.

Go_Eagles77
11-10-2009, 02:35 PM
The minute he starts to get the "No-Call PI" like Asante and Brown -- it is off to the races
What are you basing this off of other than the one time Asante did it on Sunday?

bigbluedefense
11-10-2009, 02:47 PM
Champ Bailey comparisons?

This is why theres no such thing as an underrated Cowboy.

D-Unit
11-10-2009, 04:50 PM
Champ Bailey comparisons?

This is why theres no such thing as an underrated Cowboy.
Even as a Cowboys fan, it makes me sad to hear comparisons like that. I love Mike a lot, but I recognize that it's going to take a lot of time tested battles won before he can even sniff Champ Bailey comparisons. He still gets burnt. I mean... they all do. Even the great ones. The difference for him now, is that he learns from each mistake and keeps getting better and better. We're loving him right now because he's in the middle of making that ascend up towards reaching his potential... and that really is a fun time. You know... the same thing that Terrell Thomas is doing. Makin' that climb! Fun stuff to watch.

bigbluedefense
11-10-2009, 07:13 PM
Even as a Cowboys fan, it makes me sad to hear comparisons like that. I love Mike a lot, but I recognize that it's going to take a lot of time tested battles won before he can even sniff Champ Bailey comparisons. He still gets burnt. I mean... they all do. Even the great ones. The difference for him now, is that he learns from each mistake and keeps getting better and better. We're loving him right now because he's in the middle of making that ascend up towards reaching his potential... and that really is a fun time. You know... the same thing that Terrell Thomas is doing. Makin' that climb! Fun stuff to watch.

Oh no doubt. He's looking real good right now. And should only get better. Its just the Champ comparisons are a bit much.

LonghornsLegend
11-10-2009, 08:24 PM
Champ Bailey comparisons?

This is why theres no such thing as an underrated Cowboy.

Now you know there are fans everywhere that have to be a homer and overrate their players and annoint them early. Everyone always tries to put this on the Cowboys like it's just our fans that do this lol. I visit alot of other teams boards and it's no different on any team forum.

Giantsfan1080
11-10-2009, 08:30 PM
As good as Webster has been the last 2 years I've never seen anyone compare him to Champ Bailey.

herniateddisc
11-10-2009, 09:36 PM
Webster has not been that good for the last two years. Your pass rush has. This year it has been bad and how has Webster looked??

All this Webster love started with the GB interception in the pen ultimum game of the year. Prior to that, everyone hate him and thought he was crap. All of a sudden he has a good year on a dominant D and he something special?? Whatever.

With respect to the Champ Bailey point, please read carefully. I wrote once he starts getting the calls like Asante does that it is off to the races in terms of EFFECTIVENESS. I am not saying Jenkins is as ACCOMPLISHED, I am saying that once he gets some REF respect he will be in that class of CB.

Why do I think this? B/c he is very physical, has good catch up speed, plays the ball as well as any CB in the league and has good hands. My Jenkins concerns are emotional maturity and in that sense he still has lots to prove.

But right now, pound for pound, he is better than all listed IMHO. Keep watching him ...

Giantsfan1080
11-10-2009, 09:38 PM
Webster has not been that good for the last two years. Your pass rush has. This year it has been bad and how has Webster looked??

With respect to the Champ Bailey point, please read carefully. I wrote once he starts getting the calls like Asante does that it is off to the races in terms of EFFECTIVENESS.

I am not saying Jenkins is as ACCOMPLISHED, I am saying that once he gets some REF respect he will be in that class.

Webster has been excellent this year except for the one game. The first TD he let up in 2 years was against Maclin where he played the coverage perfectly. Jackson ate him up on numerous plays but some WR's just have a CB's number. I'm not the least bit worried.

Rosebud
11-10-2009, 09:40 PM
Corey Webster is possibly not even better than Terrell Thomas. Vincent Jackson made him look bad that last play and the G-Men DB are pretty bad right now. If Webster was lock-down they would not be as bad.

I knew useless was the wrong word to describe you as clueless is so much more fitting. There are soooooo many things wrong with this paragraph that I don't even know where to begin with you. I guess I should recommend that you watch a giants game sometime so that you know what you are talking about in at least the slightest way, but since you seem to refuse to do so I'll only wish you good luck.

herniateddisc
11-10-2009, 09:44 PM
Even as a Cowboys fan, it makes me sad to hear comparisons like that. I love Mike a lot, but I recognize that it's going to take a lot of time tested battles won before he can even sniff Champ Bailey comparisons. He still gets burnt. I mean... they all do. Even the great ones. The difference for him now, is that he learns from each mistake and keeps getting better and better. We're loving him right now because he's in the middle of making that ascend up towards reaching his potential... and that really is a fun time. You know... the same thing that Terrell Thomas is doing. Makin' that climb! Fun stuff to watch.

Name me one play this year where Jenkins was "burned?"

Beaten, everyone, burned???

Can't say one sticks out. Maybe the GMen game which was his first start this season but I remember TNew and Scandrick getting killed.

herniateddisc
11-10-2009, 09:46 PM
What are you basing this off of other than the one time Asante did it on Sunday?

80% of the time he jumps a slant he commits PI. 50% of the time a sideline route is run.

Good for him if he gets away with it. That is the Belichick school of DB play. Make the REFs call it. Ty Law will have done it all the way to the HOF so kudos to getting away with it is my read.

herniateddisc
11-10-2009, 09:48 PM
I was told by reputable G-Men fans I was crazy for saying your D was in trouble after the Dallas game. So to have the folsk going crazy here on Corey does not surprise me.

Time will tell. Just watch the games.

herniateddisc
11-10-2009, 09:49 PM
Webster has been excellent this year except for the one game. The first TD he let up in 2 years was against Maclin where he played the coverage perfectly. Jackson ate him up on numerous plays but some WR's just have a CB's number. I'm not the least bit worried.

Great, no need for worry whatsoever. I must be crazy.

BaLLiN
11-10-2009, 09:52 PM
Vincent Jackson made Asmougha look awful... And i honestly dont understand this, but when a CB makes a pick or two they're automatically considered great. Terrell Thomas is doing exactly what Aaron Ross started to do, part of the reason why Antonio Cromartie has been awful and Mike Jenkins from what i saw did it on occasion.

They play off coverage and are very high in their backpedal, basically are staring into the quarterback's eyes the entire time and trying to bait him into a bad throw. Then when they break on the ball they ALWAYS go for the pick, or have gotten themselves out of position. This leads to alot of yards gained, instead of making the quarterback make a good throw they try to get themselves a pick.

herniateddisc
11-10-2009, 09:52 PM
Oh no doubt. He's looking real good right now. And should only get better. Its just the Champ comparisons are a bit much.

Why? Just watch the game and watch how he plays. He tracks the receiver fluidly, he is able to find the flight of the ball even with his back turned, he is getting better at reading routes and understanding how pass rush alters it, he has good hands and he has excellent speed on the field ....

He is not ACCOMPLISHED yet but he is playing as well as any CB right now in the NFC East.

herniateddisc
11-10-2009, 09:55 PM
Vincent Jackson made Asmougha look awful... And i honestly dont understand this, but when a CB makes a pick or two they're automatically considered great. Terrell Thomas is doing exactly what Aaron Ross started to do, part of the reason why Antonio Cromartie has been awful and Mike Jenkins from what i saw did it on occasion.

They play off coverage and are very high in their backpedal, basically are staring into the quarterback's eyes the entire time and trying to bait him into a bad throw. Then when they break on the ball they ALWAYS go for the pick, or have gotten themselves out of position. This leads to alot of yards gained, instead of making the quarterback make a good throw they try to get themselves a pick.

Jenkins is more a quick twitch guy than a fast guy (though he is fast). Fast in the phone booth.

I think the guy you mention are faster but not quite as explosive from what I see on the field.

Again, not saying he is the best in the league but in the NFC East, right now, yeah.

Anyway to get stats on what the Completion Rate is to his guy??????

Giantsfan1080
11-10-2009, 09:56 PM
Great, no need for worry whatsoever. I must be crazy.

Give me a few specific reasons why I should be worried about Webster then. Like I said one bad game doesn't change the fact that he's playing as one of the top 5 CB's in the NFL. If you're going to tell me Webster is going to revert back to his pre '07 days then at least tell me why.

herniateddisc
11-10-2009, 10:00 PM
Give me a few specific reasons why I should be worried about Webster then. Like I said one bad game doesn't change the fact that he's playing as one of the top 5 CB's in the NFL. If you're going to tell me Webster is going to revert back to his pre '07 days then at least tell me why.

Because your pass rush is nowhere near as good as 2008/07, he has horrid safety play to cover up for him, and WR can run past him with ease.

Other than that, no reason to worry.

Rosebud
11-10-2009, 10:01 PM
Why? Just watch the game and watch how he plays. He tracks the receiver fluidly, he is able to find the flight of the ball even with his back turned, he is getting better at reading routes and understanding how pass rush alters it, he has good hands and he has excellent speed on the field ....

He is not ACCOMPLISHED yet but he is playing as well as any CB right now in the NFC East.

I hate to use stats for corners but since you've never watched Corey Webster play:
http://www.profootballfocus.com/by_player.php?tab=by_player&season=2009&surn=Webster&playerid=2260&group=7
vs Mike Jenkins
http://www.profootballfocus.com/by_player.php?tab=by_player&season=2009&surn=jenkins&playerid=4339&group=7

So not only is corey giving away a less yards per catch but he's also giving up less catches. Granted Sheldon Brown has given less catches than either one, but he's giving up the most yards per catch of the trio as well. Jenkins is playing well, but you're exaggerating how well. All three have a good pass rush so that nullifies that excuse. As for corey if you look at when he's been beat it's been by Maclin for that one TD on a perfect throw and catch, which he couldn't have done better at defending, and by a much bigger WR in Vjax who caught all the passes he took against aso and even holds the only TD scored on Aso this season.

Rosebud
11-10-2009, 10:04 PM
Because your pass rush is nowhere near as good as 2008/07, he has horrid safety play to cover up for him, and WR can run past him with ease.

Other than that, no reason to worry.

Corey had a mediocre pass rush last season and was still dominant. He had horrid safety play last year as well. And name a WR other than Vincent Jackson who "[ran] past him with ease"

BaLLiN
11-10-2009, 10:05 PM
He without a doubt got beat by dwayne bowe to let the CHIEFS, the CHIEFS, tie the game and force it into overtime.

Champ locked recievers down, jenkins is good, but he can't be called equal by playing a game of cat and mouse and chasing after picks.

Giantsfan1080
11-10-2009, 10:07 PM
Because your pass rush is nowhere near as good as 2008/07, he has horrid safety play to cover up for him, and WR can run past him with ease.

Other than that, no reason to worry.

Then why was he playing so great untill the SD game?

BaLLiN
11-10-2009, 10:10 PM
Not gunna lie though, coming out of college mike jenkins seemed better than Darrelle Revis, and i dont care anything about numbers on Revis, he is top 5 in the league at his position.

herniateddisc
11-10-2009, 10:10 PM
I hate to use stats for corners but since you've never watched Corey Webster play:
http://www.profootballfocus.com/by_player.php?tab=by_player&season=2009&surn=Webster&playerid=2260&group=7
vs Mike Jenkins
http://www.profootballfocus.com/by_player.php?tab=by_player&season=2009&surn=jenkins&playerid=4339&group=7

So not only is corey giving away a less yards per catch but he's also giving up less catches. Granted Sheldon Brown has given less catches than either one, but he's giving up the most yards per catch of the trio as well. Jenkins is playing well, but you're exaggerating how well. All three have a good pass rush so that nullifies that excuse. As for corey if you look at when he's been beat it's been by Maclin for that one TD on a perfect throw and catch, which he couldn't have done better at defending, and by a much bigger WR in Vjax who caught all the passes he took against aso and even holds the only TD scored on Aso this season.

Great stats.

You do understand part of reason (today) Webster has less throws his way than Jenkins is that comparatively the GMen's other CB is inferior to Newman? Also given how the Safety play of the GMen is why bother???

Webster has decent technique and is a fluid athlete but he is slow and can be had badly without a great pass rush or above average safety play to cover up for him. That is my position.

Giantsfan1080
11-10-2009, 10:11 PM
I thought Revis was the best CB to come out of that class. I was hoping we'd trade up for him or he would somehow fall to us. I loved his game at Pitt.

herniateddisc
11-10-2009, 10:11 PM
Not gunna lie though, coming out of college mike jenkins seemed better than Darrelle Revis, and i dont care anything about numbers on Revis, he is top 5 in the league at his position.

I love Revis. I think he is as good as anyone right now. Even Champ.

BaLLiN
11-10-2009, 10:11 PM
But lets take a moment to honor the worst DB in the NFC east, maybe the league.

http://www.profootballfocus.com/by_player.php?tab=by_player&season=2009&surn=B&playerid=2405&group=7
LOL

herniateddisc
11-10-2009, 10:12 PM
Then why was he playing so great untill the SD game?

He was not. He was just not playing as badly as the rest of your D.

Look at the NO game for proof.

Why bother going after Webster when you have so many more juicy targets to abuse mercilessly.

herniateddisc
11-10-2009, 10:13 PM
But lets take a moment to honor the worst DB in the NFC east, maybe the league.

http://www.profootballfocus.com/by_player.php?tab=by_player&season=2009&surn=B&playerid=2405&group=7
LOL

He is your Roy Williams #31.

What goes around comes around.

Giantsfan1080
11-10-2009, 10:17 PM
He was not. He was just not playing as badly as the rest of your D.

Look at the NO game for proof.

Why bother going after Webster when you have so many more juicy targets to abuse mercilessly.

If that's what you really think then whatever. I'm done chasing around in this conversation.

BaLLiN
11-10-2009, 10:17 PM
Corey Webster vs Santana Moss arguably one of the most explosive wideouts in the NFL. Webster not only gave him negative yardage, he got a sideline interception. Speed is obviously not an issue.

The issue really was safety help and his inability to track the ball, he was in decent/good coverage.

herniateddisc
11-10-2009, 10:19 PM
He without a doubt got beat by dwayne bowe to let the CHIEFS, the CHIEFS, tie the game and force it into overtime.

Champ locked recievers down, jenkins is good, but he can't be called equal by playing a game of cat and mouse and chasing after picks.

No doubt he will get beat and no doubt he needs to improve.

That is why I said if he can start getting the CALLS on those tight plays it will give him confidence to play physical and take chances ......... which is his game.

If he is allowed to play as physical as Asante, he will be a monster because he has very good top end speed to avoid getting beat deep and he has that TWITCH to jump routes with the hands to get picks.

New man, for example, would be great if he had hands but he does not. The guy drops 4-5 INT per year.

herniateddisc
11-10-2009, 10:20 PM
Corey Webster vs Santana Moss arguably one of the most explosive wideouts in the NFL. Webster not only gave him negative yardage, he got a sideline interception. Speed is obviously not an issue.

The issue really was safety help and his inability to track the ball, he was in decent/good coverage.

Jason Campbell. Jason friggin Campbell.

Raiders QB made Randy Moss look like an UDFA.

herniateddisc
11-10-2009, 10:21 PM
If that's what you really think then whatever. I'm done chasing around in this conversation.

Don't bother, just watch the rest of the season and see what happens.

Take care.

And BTW, I thought the GMen has a pretty good pass rush last year. 42 sacks right? Number 3 Defense? You don't get that unless you can get to the QB.

BaLLiN
11-10-2009, 10:29 PM
If thats his game then power to him, sooner or later he'll become the goat of the defense as Antonio Cromartie did, he cant be constantly going off of instincts, because double moves will always get you. Dominic Rodgers-Cromartie saw that often, but he adjusted and has been playing on and being physical. Jenkins isn't that type of player, he also isnt just an Asante Samuel type player (aka freelance) he is a solid cover guy, but he'll have to learn his lesson first possibly.

Jason Campbell. Jason friggin Campbell.

eh, you really cant blame campbell, santanna was one on one the entire night, the announcers frequently showed moss's inability to shake webster. They even got into a fight because of his frustration. the sideline interception was all campbells fault tho, moss didnt attempt to bat it down or anything but campbell shouldve just thrown it away.

BaLLiN
11-10-2009, 10:31 PM
and no, the raiders are just awful, its coaching, and Al. Although Moss had a horrible attitude, ever since he has had a tendency to disappear from games on occasion.

Rosebud
11-10-2009, 10:32 PM
Great stats.

You do understand part of reason (today) Webster has less throws his way than Jenkins is that comparatively the GMen's other CB is inferior to Newman? Also given how the Safety play of the GMen is why bother???

Webster has decent technique and is a fluid athlete but he is slow and can be had badly without a great pass rush or above average safety play to cover up for him. That is my position.

http://www.profootballfocus.com/by_player.php?tab=by_player&season=2009&surn=newman&playerid=1321&group=7
vs
http://www.profootballfocus.com/by_player.php?tab=by_player&season=2009&surn=thomas&playerid=4377&group=7

wanna try again?

As for our safeties Michael Johnson's actually good in coverage, CC Brown is trash and yes he does get burnt a lot but that would make Webster's numbers more impressive since he doesn't get help over top from Brown.

As for your position it happens to be wrong but don't let that stop you from maintaining it.

BaLLiN
11-10-2009, 10:35 PM
But i can tell you right now, if mike jenkins tried to do what he does against peyton manning, champ comparisons would be opposite.

Rosebud
11-10-2009, 10:37 PM
He was not. He was just not playing as badly as the rest of your D.

Look at the NO game for proof.

Why bother going after Webster when you have so many more juicy targets to abuse mercilessly.

Great example, except it disproves your point about Webster's talent, Webster played well against NO, in fact both of our outside guys did well in that game, we just got torn a new ass hole in the middle where CC Brown is turrible and with Boley out our LBs were slower than dirt as well. So our pass d struggled. There's absolutely no way you can fault Webster for our middle cover guys sucking. As for this why go after Webster notion, teams don't really, but that's because he's great at covering guys, that's why his averages are so great, he doesn't give up big catches and does a great job preventing catches. What's impressive aren't his totals which would be effected by being shied away from but his averages.

herniateddisc
11-10-2009, 10:39 PM
http://www.profootballfocus.com/by_player.php?tab=by_player&season=2009&surn=newman&playerid=1321&group=7
vs
http://www.profootballfocus.com/by_player.php?tab=by_player&season=2009&surn=thomas&playerid=4377&group=7

wanna try again?

As for our safeties Michael Johnson's actually good in coverage, CC Brown is trash and yes he does get burnt a lot but that would make Webster's numbers more impressive since he doesn't get help over top from Brown.

As for your position it happens to be wrong but don't let that stop you from maintaining it.

Call me a dunce but if I am throwing the ball versus the GMen, I would go after everyone but Webster for obvious reasons.

If throwing the ball v the Cowboys, that call is somewhat more difficult becasue the Secondary in Dallas is a bit better right now.

So, not sure, the stats quite capture that nor is the data really supporting the argument.

herniateddisc
11-10-2009, 10:42 PM
Great example, except it disproves your point about Webster's talent, Webster played well against NO, in fact both of our outside guys did well in that game, we just got torn a new ass hole in the middle where CC Brown is turrible and with Boley out our LBs were slower than dirt as well. So our pass d struggled. There's absolutely no way you can fault Webster for our middle cover guys sucking. As for this why go after Webster notion, teams don't really, but that's because he's great at covering guys, that's why his averages are so great, he doesn't give up big catches and does a great job preventing catches. What's impressive aren't his totals which would be effected by being shied away from but his averages.

I think Webster is talented but he is not a top 5 CB. Sorry. Never will be IMHO.

His stats right now are more an indication of how easy it is to abuse other than it is to abuse him.

Rosebud
11-10-2009, 10:42 PM
Call me a dunce but if I am throwing the ball versus the GMen, I would go after everyone but Webster for obvious reasons.

If throwing the ball v the Cowboys, that call is somewhat more difficult becasue the Secondary in Dallas is a bit better right now.

So, not sure, the stats quite capture that nor is the data really supporting the argument.

How is the secondary in dallas better when both giants corners are playing better? Sure you don't have a CC Brown but that's one player, it's not like Web gets ignored because he's got CC Brown and Roy Williams at Safety with DeAngelo at the other corner spot. There's good coverage across from Web and there's good coverage at one of the safety spots. So teams do take advantage of Brown and the linebackers, but you still haven't explained how that in any way makes Web any less impressive.

Rosebud
11-10-2009, 10:43 PM
I think Webster is talented but he is not a top 5 CB. Sorry. Never will be IMHO.

His stats right now are more an indication of how easy it is to abuse other than it is to abuse him.

lol, when he's got a better second CB than Jenkins that's such a ridiculous point.

herniateddisc
11-10-2009, 10:50 PM
How is the secondary in dallas better when both giants corners are playing better?

Last I checked Safeties count. And you are basing your CB play as being better based on what? 5-4? 15 TDs?

The puffed up stats from playing Jason Campbell, JeMarcus Russell???????

We have yet to benefit from that.

Every decent QB dropped 21 points plus on the GMen and you are 1-4 in those games.

Sure you don't have a CC Brown but that's one player, it's not like Web gets ignored because he's got CC Brown and Roy Williams at Safety with DeAngelo at the other corner spot. There's good coverage across from Web and there's good coverage at one of the safety spots. So teams do take advantage of Brown and the linebackers, but you still haven't explained how that in any way makes Web any less impressive.

I think Webster is fine. I don't think he is top 5 though and I think RIGHT NOW I take Jenkins b/c he is a better play maker with more upside.

That was the Poll right? Best DB right now?

Heck, I could have talked Laron Landry. I was thinking CB. But I like him better than everyone else now that I think of it as a DB.

But, you can keep Webster. It is fine. Love him.

Rosebud
11-10-2009, 10:54 PM
Last I checked Safeties count.

And you are basing your CB play as being better based on what? 5-4?



I think Webster is fine. I don't think he is top 5 and I think RIGHT NOW I take Jenkins b/c he is a better play maker with more upside.

You can keep Webster. It is fine. Love him.

Safeties count but Michael Johnson is good in coverage. So what you're suggesting is that just because CC Brown is trash that makes the rest of our coverage players worse?

Webster's near the top 5 if he isn't top 5, he's been a great cover guy for 2 years now who doesn't give up many big plays, keeps a very low completion % and is great against the run. Jenkins is a better playmaker, but that has more to do with Webster's hands as he's dropped a couple of picks already this year, but still Webster is clearly a lot better in coverage which is much more important at the corner position.

As for what I'm judging Terrell Thomas on is his good play, he's played well and has been improving steadily, our record has nothing to do with that.

herniateddisc
11-10-2009, 11:02 PM
Jenkins is a better playmaker, but that has more to do with Webster's hands as he's dropped a couple of picks already this year, but still Webster is clearly a lot better in coverage which is much more important at the corner position.

... and herein lies the difference in opinion. Good analysis.

Differences abound. Fair enuff. I prefer Jenkins. You Webster.

Thumper
11-11-2009, 12:24 AM
This is ridiculous, what in the world has Jenkins done to warrant being named a better corner than Webster, Asante and Sheldon? Nothing. Is it because Jenkins has shadowed a bunch of nobodies while Newman matches up with the #1? Is it because he let Bobby Wade and Mark Bradley grab 7 catches for 77 yards? Because he shut down Michael Jenkins and a rookie Jeremy Maclin? Or is it because he let Deion Branch go for 3 receptions and 39 yards? Get real.

According to Profootball focus, Jenkins has been targeted 40 times and has allowed 22 receptions for 258 yards and 2 touchdowns. Please come and tell me when that matches up with 33 targets, 11 catches, 142 yards, 4 interceptions and 13 passes defended and 0 touchdowns from Sheldon Brown (that Miles Austin TD was on Jones who was supposed to have over the top coverage, which is why he gambled so much), or Asante Samuel's 24 targets and 14 receptions for 157 yards, 2 touchdowns and has 5 interceptions and 13 passes defended and in the past 3 1/2 regulard seasons, Asante Samuel has 25 interceptions, 60 passes defended, 2 touchdowns and if you add in the post season, that total jumps to 30 interceptions, 74 passes defended and 5 touchdowns, those would be great career numbers for most players.

And on the topic of Corey Webster, he has had two tough weeks but he is still shutdown. On the Maclin touchdown he had perfect coverage it was just a perfect throw and Maclin went and stole it out of the air. And Vincent Jackson has made everyone look bad, he scored touchdowns against Scrabble and Webster this season, that is like dividing by 0 twice.

And here are the numbers from last year:
Corey Webster, New York Giants
Season Totals: 66 attempts, 3.92 YPA, 65.15 Forced INC%, 1 TD, 3 INTs

Sheldon Brown, Philadelphia Eagles
Season Totals: 63 attempts, 4.84 YPA, 44.44 Forced INC%, 0 TDs, 1 INT

Asante Samuel, Philadelphia Eagles
Season Totals: 78 attempts, 6.51 YPA, 41.03 Forced INC%, 3 TDs, 4 INTs

Mike Jenkins, Dallas Cowboys
Season Totals: 38 attempts, 4.34 YPA, 39.47 Forced INC%, 2 TDs, 1 INT

Jenkins has potential that much is for sure but right now Samuel, Brown and Webster are top 10 corners in the NFL and Jenkins still has a way to go before he is on the level of two of the best man to man corners in the NFL and the best zone corner in the NFL.

herniateddisc
11-11-2009, 07:11 AM
Asante had one amazing year -- 2006. He has greatly benefited by playing on above average Defenses. NE let him walk b/c they knew this. And according to your stats his YPA is pretty damn high which can cause me to draw some conclusion about him.

My eyeball check however is he is the biggest gambler of the bunch. He is constantly peaking into the backfield to jump routes. Constantly running into WR and forcing the Ref to either ignore or call -- his rep helps him greatly. Constantly benefiting from an effective blitz happy team and poor NE weather during the latter half of the season.

And just as importantly -- DC, Eagles and GMen have had MUCH BETTER SAFETY play over the last few years. Which greatly bolsters stats for CB.

With respect to Jenkins, he has one part-time year. Throw that out plus he was a rookie. I could care less about his stats right now. Talk about his stats end of this year and next. This is the first year in a long time the Cowboys have above average safety play in the secondary and Jenkins will benefit (second half moreso b/c Hamlin was a non-factor early on and has gotten marginally better). I would compare stats then.

All are above average guys. I am simply asking you actually watch him play, watch how he covers, watch how he plays the ball, watch how he is tackling and evaluate the RIGHT NOW.

** Now watch him go out at Green Bay and stink up the joint in cold weather.

quincyyyyy
11-11-2009, 08:27 AM
Falling
2. Corey Webster, Giants cornerback: I thought this guy was an elite cornerback, but he's regressed in recent weeks. I didn't think he played well against the Chargers. In fact, second-year corner Terrell Thomas had a much better game, in my opinion. Webster had a horrible missed tackle against the Eagles. On Sunday against the Chargers, he wasn't reacting as quickly as he needed to.
http://espn.go.com/blog/nflnation/category/_/name/stock-watch-09-week-9

OMG Webster is the best! [/sarcasm]

619
11-11-2009, 08:38 AM
I always wonder how much Samuel benefits from playing across a shutdown corner like Brown. Probably much more than the other way around. Gimme Sheldon right now.

bigbluedefense
11-11-2009, 09:49 AM
Webster has not been that good for the last two years. Your pass rush has. This year it has been bad and how has Webster looked??

All this Webster love started with the GB interception in the pen ultimum game of the year. Prior to that, everyone hate him and thought he was crap. All of a sudden he has a good year on a dominant D and he something special?? Whatever.

With respect to the Champ Bailey point, please read carefully. I wrote once he starts getting the calls like Asante does that it is off to the races in terms of EFFECTIVENESS. I am not saying Jenkins is as ACCOMPLISHED, I am saying that once he gets some REF respect he will be in that class of CB.

Why do I think this? B/c he is very physical, has good catch up speed, plays the ball as well as any CB in the league and has good hands. My Jenkins concerns are emotional maturity and in that sense he still has lots to prove.

But right now, pound for pound, he is better than all listed IMHO. Keep watching him ...

Yes he has. Last year our pass rush wasn't that good. Dallas's pass rush was better, as was a lot of teams in the NFL.

Webster and our secondary as a whole was better than our SB year, which masked it. Our defense last year was just as good as our SB team, but good in a different way. Our pass rush wasn't as good, but our coverage was much better.

Webster was the main reason for that. He was a top 5 CB in the league last year.

This year prior to Vincent Jackson, he's been lights out. Arguably top 3,4.

Jenkins has potential to be great, but right now he's a solid up and comer. And thats it. 3 games doesn't warrant any comparisons to Champ Bailey, regardless of how much of that comparison is a future projection.

Its a long season. Remember that.

herniateddisc
11-11-2009, 05:33 PM
Yes he has. Last year our pass rush wasn't that good. Dallas's pass rush was better, as was a lot of teams in the NFL.

Webster and our secondary as a whole was better than our SB year, which masked it. Our defense last year was just as good as our SB team, but good in a different way. Our pass rush wasn't as good, but our coverage was much better.

Webster was the main reason for that. He was a top 5 CB in the league last year.

This year prior to Vincent Jackson, he's been lights out. Arguably top 3,4.

Jenkins has potential to be great, but right now he's a solid up and comer. And thats it. 3 games doesn't warrant any comparisons to Champ Bailey, regardless of how much of that comparison is a future projection.

Its a long season. Remember that.

BBD, I realise this will sound odd but last year the GMen had a better and more consistent rush than the Cowboys. In fact, I found the Cowboys D last year to get quite reckless with the blitzing and pile don in certain games

I don't have the stats but I suspect the GMen last year blitzed less than the Cowboys but where pretty successful getting pressure -- even to the point teams "felt" pressure when none was there.

With respect to three games don't make a trend, OK, but RIGHT NOW given historical performance, context of play in the D strategy their teams take, and overall talent level .... gimme Mike.

Long seasons work both ways.

Sniper
11-11-2009, 05:35 PM
Despite Sean Jones' refusal to help Sheldon Brown, Brown's CB stats still probably blow Jenkins' out of the water.

Thumper
11-11-2009, 05:36 PM
Despite Sean Jones' refusal to help Sheldon Brown, Brown's CB stats still probably blow Jenkins' out of the water.

They do, right now Sheldon Brown is clearly better.

Rosebud
11-11-2009, 06:12 PM
BBD, I realise this will sound odd but last year the GMen had a better and more consistent rush than the Cowboys. In fact, I found the Cowboys D last year to get quite reckless with the blitzing and pile don in certain games

I don't have the stats but I suspect the GMen last year blitzed less than the Cowboys but where pretty successful getting pressure -- even to the point teams "felt" pressure when none was there.

With respect to three games don't make a trend, OK, but RIGHT NOW given historical performance, context of play in the D strategy their teams take, and overall talent level .... gimme Mike.

Long seasons work both ways.

That's how not great pass rushes work, ours was very patchy and got sacks in batches and often didn't get much pressure at all last year. As for your insistence to over-rate Mike, historical performance and context of play in the D work against him compared to the other 3. As for talent level Sheldon Brown and Webster clearly have more talent at sticking to their man and making every catch a tough one and Asante is a better ball hawk.

D-Unit
11-11-2009, 08:22 PM
What's lost from this discussion is how the play of secondary also plays apart in the pass rush. So far the posts above only discuss how the pass rush has benefitted certain corners. When in fact, they go hand in hand which will only lead to passionate debate about an issue that can't really be answered definitively.

We all love our corners. How much does it matter? Not nearly as much as team wins. Wins is the only stat that counts. ...and what does it count towards? A SB. The discussion is fun, but remember this kind of discussion only goes in circles.

LonghornsLegend
11-18-2009, 08:15 PM
What's lost from this discussion is how the play of secondary also plays apart in the pass rush. So far the posts above only discuss how the pass rush has benefitted certain corners. When in fact, they go hand in hand which will only lead to passionate debate about an issue that can't really be answered definitively.

We all love our corners. How much does it matter? Not nearly as much as team wins. Wins is the only stat that counts. ...and what does it count towards? A SB. The discussion is fun, but remember this kind of discussion only goes in circles.

Exactly. Prime example of this is how vs Philly Maclin burned Jenkins on a deep route and of course Hamlin was late getting help as usual, so it was a pretty easy 6 especially when Maclin had that many steps already. Ware ended up getting to McNabb and hitting his arm right as he was releasing the ball, but when they showed the replay it was pretty obvious Maclin was going to score on that play. Any corner can look better then what they really are if their asked to cover for less time, same goes for good corners who are asked to cover longer periods of time during one play.

herniateddisc
11-27-2009, 07:07 AM
Where are those great stats showing me how Corey Webster is great and the GMen DB are awesome!

Webster kind of struggles at bit with decent WR...... As I said, puffing up stats versus Tampa, Oakland, KC, etc is not a measuring stick to how good you are, or your DBs in General.

And with respect to the Cowboys, we will find out how good they are starting next week. 5 games to prove if this D is real.

?????

Sniper
11-27-2009, 07:14 AM
As I said, puffing up stats versus Tampa, Oakland, KC, etc is not a measuring stick to how good you are

You don't seem to mind it when it's Miles Austin who's puffing up his stats against those teams.

herniateddisc
11-27-2009, 07:20 AM
You don't seem to mind it when it's Miles Austin who's puffing up his stats against those teams.

Hate to point out the obvious but Webster piling up stats versus "those teams" is an indication of HOW BAD THE OFFENSES are.

Your point is the opposite. Austin puffing ups stats versus the Raiders DB would be calling those Defenses bad. And the Raiders DB are not that bad versus the Pass. Run not so much.

So, I already stated the Cowgirls season starts next Sunday and they have lots to prove.

Giantsfan1080
11-27-2009, 10:59 AM
Yeah those one handed catches by Marshall where Webster was in good position really sucked.

herniateddisc
11-27-2009, 11:54 AM
Yeah those one handed catches by Marshall where Webster was in good position really sucked.

Excuses. Excuses.

Solid corner no better than Terence Newman.

Again, he is very good just not the best.

Giantsfan1080
11-27-2009, 11:57 AM
Excuses. Excuses.

No it's the truth. Webster didn't give up anything terrible yesterday like he did with Vincent Jackson. I think the problem you're seeing is that Sheridan loves to play a Cover 2 and our safties are terrible at it. Therefore you see Webster running to save someone's ass and you assume it was his guy when it wasn't. It's happened on numerous occasions this season.

Giantsfan1080
11-27-2009, 12:00 PM
I've always said it's very close between him and Sheldon Brown. I think Webster gets the slight edge but I don't mind if people think Brown is better.

herniateddisc
11-27-2009, 12:00 PM
No it's the truth. Webster didn't give up anything terrible yesterday like he did with Vincent Jackson. I think the problem you're seeing is that Sheridan loves to play a Cover 2 and our safties are terrible at it. Therefore you see Webster running to save someone's ass and you assume it was his guy when it wasn't. It's happened on numerous occasions this season.

Safeties fault. Never the CB.

Listen, not that I totally disagree with you but he just is not that good. His late 2007 and 2008 were a product of Spags brilliant work getting to the QB when it counted.

Great technician, decent athlete, would love him on my team, not a top-5 CB.

Rosebud
11-28-2009, 03:18 AM
Da bob-er, why are you so incessantly wrong sometimes?

herniateddisc
11-28-2009, 09:04 AM
Da bob-er, why are you so incessantly wrong sometimes?

Oy-vey. Time will prove me right as it normally does.

Can't wait for next week. Too bad I gotta travel b/c my brother has been able to get us Corp Box for Boy @ GMen seats just about every year. Food, liquor, warmth ..... oh well.

bigbluedefense
11-29-2009, 09:31 AM
Where are those great stats showing me how Corey Webster is great and the GMen DB are awesome!

Webster kind of struggles at bit with decent WR...... As I said, puffing up stats versus Tampa, Oakland, KC, etc is not a measuring stick to how good you are, or your DBs in General.

And with respect to the Cowboys, we will find out how good they are starting next week. 5 games to prove if this D is real.

?????

Webster has had issues with big physical WRs like Marshall and Jackson. He simply isn't tall enough to beat them in jump ball situations.

But what youre saying about him padding stats against mediocre WRs is inaccurate. Webster shut down Roddy White, Larry Fitzgerald, Santana Moss, Dwayne Bowe, DeSean Jackson (when he was one him), and more im forgetting off the top of my head.

I would HARDLY call Fitzgerald an average WR.

Our issues on defense are mediocre DTs, injured DEs, mediocre MIKE and SAM, and mediocre SS. And a mediocre DC. Not our CBs. Our CB trio is the best in the East.

herniateddisc
12-02-2009, 07:10 AM
Webster has had issues with big physical WRs like Marshall and Jackson. He simply isn't tall enough to beat them in jump ball situations.

But what youre saying about him padding stats against mediocre WRs is inaccurate. Webster shut down Roddy White, Larry Fitzgerald, Santana Moss, Dwayne Bowe, DeSean Jackson (when he was one him), and more im forgetting off the top of my head.

I would HARDLY call Fitzgerald an average WR.

Our issues on defense are mediocre DTs, injured DEs, mediocre MIKE and SAM, and mediocre SS. And a mediocre DC. Not our CBs. Our CB trio is the best in the East.

All I am saying is he is not Top 5 CB and not the best in the NFC East. I like him a great deal. Dunno what the big deal is. With respect to shut down or not .... Offenses are taking the path of least resistance with the GMen and I would not describe Webster as "path of least resistance."

Best in NFC East as a trio -- maybe. To me that is a more plausible position to take.

FWIW, I remember Fitz having a goo day and ATL WR caught alot of balls and Gonzalez having a huge day. Point is since week 2 (first GMen game I saw), I have been calling the GMen D out for not being too good and yes your LB and DT problem is pretty bad but the corners have been just OK.

Enjoy Sunday at 4.

BaLLiN
12-02-2009, 09:58 PM
All I am saying is he is not Top 5 CB and not the best in the NFC East. I like him a great deal. Dunno what the big deal is. With respect to shut down or not .... Offenses are taking the path of least resistance with the GMen and I would not describe Webster as "path of least resistance."

Best in NFC East as a trio -- maybe. To me that is a more plausible position to take.

FWIW, I remember Fitz having a goo day and ATL WR caught alot of balls and Gonzalez having a huge day. Point is since week 2 (first GMen game I saw), I have been calling the GMen D out for not being too good and yes your LB and DT problem is pretty bad but the corners have been just OK.

Enjoy Sunday at 4.

corey webster is not a top 5 CB, i wont agree to that, borderline top 10. Nnamdi Asomugha is considered a top 5 corner despite his visually mediocre play. What you see is not always what you think. Your arrogance just gleams, open your mind man, these players aren't robots. Corey is clearly trying to compensate for the rest of the defense being awful, he has not done bad anyway.

Did Brandon Marshall have a good day? no, he made one great catch that was pretty much undefendable. Marques Colston didnt do great,
our safety play was the problem there. Atlanta recievers didnt do great, Roddy had an average game. Gonzo did ok but that was late in the game, and it sure as hell wasnt webster's fault.

Our defense right now is 'that bad', personnel doesnt allow us to do what sheridan wants to do, he's not the wiz that spags was.

Right now, besides Sheldon Brown, there is no argument of who is better than corey in the division. Samuels clearly benefits from his defense, isn't really even a true cornerback, he is more like a "joker" he appears to be covering but is truly 90% of the time winging it and looking for the ball.

Thumper
12-03-2009, 12:03 AM
Samuel isn't even a CB? Thats new... lol.

bigbluedefense
12-03-2009, 10:22 AM
All I am saying is he is not Top 5 CB and not the best in the NFC East. I like him a great deal. Dunno what the big deal is. With respect to shut down or not .... Offenses are taking the path of least resistance with the GMen and I would not describe Webster as "path of least resistance."

Best in NFC East as a trio -- maybe. To me that is a more plausible position to take.

FWIW, I remember Fitz having a goo day and ATL WR caught alot of balls and Gonzalez having a huge day. Point is since week 2 (first GMen game I saw), I have been calling the GMen D out for not being too good and yes your LB and DT problem is pretty bad but the corners have been just OK.

Enjoy Sunday at 4.

i disagree with your opinion, but i can respect it. to each his own.

Fitz caught 2 quick slants on Corey, thats it. When they motioned him in the slot away from Corey and into deep post routes at our safeties, thats when he caught passes. He did very little against Corey.

Ditto for White. White got locked up. Again, maybe 2 under patterns, thats it. His one big catch of the day was on Cover 2, on a busted coverage. The ATL WR youre thinking of having a good day was Mike Jenkins, who abused Bruce Johnson in that game when we put Johnson on him.

I doubt I'll enjoy Sunday. I expect the Cowboys to blow us out.

Supporting Caste
12-03-2009, 02:43 PM
Wow. I don't know how I totally missed the Corey Webster hype train, but I did. The Giants CBs never impressed me and he never stood out to me at any point (though I didn't single him out as a culprit for getting beat, either).

How has Webster looked this year?

Anyway, I'd have a hard time ranking anyone in the division over Samuel and Brown.

Question: Who is the best safety in the division? Seems like safeties in the NFC East are extremely weak lately. Landry seems like the best almost by default, but I don't consider him anything more than good. Gerald Sensabaugh has been very good for Dallas and Michael Johnson always stood out for the Giants when I saw them (though the bastard plays dirty as ****).

Sniper
12-03-2009, 02:53 PM
The guy who made the 2nd-team All-Pro last year might make a case for best safety.

http://media.scout.com/media/image/49/494055.jpg

scottyboy
12-03-2009, 03:03 PM
Oy-vey. Time will prove me right as it normally does.

Can't wait for next week. Too bad I gotta travel b/c my brother has been able to get us Corp Box for Boy @ GMen seats just about every year. Food, liquor, warmth ..... oh well.

Corp Box? child please. how 'bouts growing a pair and sitting out in the cold like real men do. I know that's what I'll be doing.

Giantsfan1080
12-03-2009, 03:07 PM
Corp Box? child please. how 'bouts growing a pair and sitting out in the cold like real men do. I know that's what I'll be doing.

I got free tix to a game once and it ended up being in the suites. Needless to say I hated it. I couldn't see anything and no one even was paying attention to the game. One of the worse Giants Stadium experiences.

Rosebud
12-03-2009, 09:07 PM
Wow. I don't know how I totally missed the Corey Webster hype train, but I did. The Giants CBs never impressed me and he never stood out to me at any point (though I didn't single him out as a culprit for getting beat, either).

How has Webster looked this year?

Anyway, I'd have a hard time ranking anyone in the division over Samuel and Brown.

Question: Who is the best safety in the division? Seems like safeties in the NFC East are extremely weak lately. Landry seems like the best almost by default, but I don't consider him anything more than good. Gerald Sensabaugh has been very good for Dallas and Michael Johnson always stood out for the Giants when I saw them (though the bastard plays dirty as ****).

VJax torched Corey with his far superior size, but that's the only guy who's gotten more than a couple of catches.

Giantsfan1080
12-03-2009, 11:35 PM
If you guys don't think Webster is the best that's fine but you're all voting for the wrong Eagle.

Sniper
12-04-2009, 09:58 AM
If you guys don't think Webster is the best that's fine but you're all voting for the wrong Eagle.

Troof. Asante's INTs get everyone's dick hard, but Sheldon's a much better cover guy.

herniateddisc
12-04-2009, 09:51 PM
Corp Box? child please. how 'bouts growing a pair and sitting out in the cold like real men do. I know that's what I'll be doing.

You wanna freeze your huevos in the cold go right ahead.

The liquor, food, warmth and occasional cute girls are cool by me.... and mid field box is so nice.

We open the windows wide and let the cold come in for awhile then shut it down when it gets too cold.

Anyway, not going this year, which sucks.

herniateddisc
12-07-2009, 12:20 PM
Anyone see the game yesterday with that over-rated Jenkins kid in comparison to All-World Webster?

Rosebud
12-07-2009, 01:44 PM
Anyone see the game yesterday with that over-rated Jenkins kid in comparison to All-World Webster?

Yeah, Jenkins really is terrible.

Supporting Caste
12-07-2009, 03:10 PM
You guys are joking, right? Newman and Scandrick suck but Jenkins is one of the best in the NFC, not to mention the division.

Webster got chumped by Roy Williams on at least one occasion. I didn't see the other TD.

Sniper
12-07-2009, 03:36 PM
Sheldon Beast Mode Brown with a pick 6 and two PBU.

herniateddisc
12-07-2009, 04:31 PM
I will look at Sheldon again but Jenkins is best IMHO.

Thumper
12-07-2009, 04:52 PM
I will look at Sheldon again but Jenkins is best IMHO.

If you need to go back and look again to know that Sheldon Brown is the best you have obviously been detached from the reasonable football world. Really? The man might be the best corner in the NFL right now. In two seasons he has given up 2 touchdowns, 1 on a fade to Fitz that no one in the history of the NFL could've defended in the playoffs and 1 to Miles Austin where Sean Jones epically failed in over the top coverage.

Here let me give you some numbers alright.

Last season, Brown was on lockdown.
Season Totals: 63 attempts, 4.84 YPA, 44.44 Forced INC%, 0 TDs, 1 INT

and this year there are no decent stats out there but I know he has been shut down all season aside from one play (Miles Austin) and he has 13 passes defended and 5 interceptions (which is a career high).

Also if I could take back my vote for Asante I would, I voted for Asante on the idea that he did a decent job in coverage and made more plays but this season Sheldon Brown has made plays in coverage, shut his man down every game and has made great tackles and is probably the 2nd best tackling corner in the NFL.

You severely underestimate Sheldon Brown.

Also IMO Corey Webster is no longer in the discussion, he is getting absolutely abused out there now and by Roy Williams no less. The last few times I've watched him he has given up at least one touchdown.

herniateddisc
12-09-2009, 10:10 AM
If you need to go back and look again to know that Sheldon Brown is the best you have obviously been detached from the reasonable football world. Really? The man might be the best corner in the NFL right now. In two seasons he has given up 2 touchdowns, 1 on a fade to Fitz that no one in the history of the NFL could've defended in the playoffs and 1 to Miles Austin where Sean Jones epically failed in over the top coverage.

Here let me give you some numbers alright.

Last season, Brown was on lockdown.
Season Totals: 63 attempts, 4.84 YPA, 44.44 Forced INC%, 0 TDs, 1 INT

and this year there are no decent stats out there but I know he has been shut down all season aside from one play (Miles Austin) and he has 13 passes defended and 5 interceptions (which is a career high).

Also if I could take back my vote for Asante I would, I voted for Asante on the idea that he did a decent job in coverage and made more plays but this season Sheldon Brown has made plays in coverage, shut his man down every game and has made great tackles and is probably the 2nd best tackling corner in the NFL.

You severely underestimate Sheldon Brown.

Also IMO Corey Webster is no longer in the discussion, he is getting absolutely abused out there now and by Roy Williams no less. The last few times I've watched him he has given up at least one touchdown.

I never know what I am talking about ..... anyway .....

Revis by far is the best.

herniateddisc
12-14-2009, 10:03 AM
Anyone see Jenkins shut down Jackson and Floyd?

They tried ....

Can't say the same for T Newman however .....

bigbluedefense
12-14-2009, 10:09 AM
Anyone see Jenkins shut down Jackson and Floyd?

They tried ....

Can't say the same for T Newman however .....

he had a pass interference that wouldve been a touchdown...

Jackson also caught a bomb pass on him that wasn't a touchdown, but went for a good 40 yards or so.

I wouldn't say he shut down anything. He didn't have a terrible game, but he wasn't dominant either.

Floyd got past him a couple of times too, but he had help up top.

He had safety help on most plays, and wasn't on Jackson for much of the game. He covered Floyd more than Jackson.

Supporting Caste
12-15-2009, 06:43 PM
The interference was on Sensabaugh, not Jenkins.

Jackson got one catch on Jenkins but it was a perfect throw. The coverage was very good.

If I could pick one DB in the East for the future it would definitely be Jenkins. Brown and Samuel are definitely better right now. I haven't watched Webster closely enough to comment.