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Shiver
09-26-2009, 09:53 PM
It has been about five years since the classic Umenyiora vs. Peppers debate. This should be fun. First off:

John Abraham is the better and more productive player than Dwight Freeney

Reason: When Freeney first came into the league he was nigh unstoppable, especially in that track meet they call a stadium. However, as he has aged he has been getting hurt a lot, lost a step, and hasn't been the force he used to be. Not to mention teams take advantage of him in the running/screen game and it has hurt the Colts in big time games (see Darren Sproles).

John Abraham has been consistently great his entire career and has seen no drop-off. If anything he looks better and more balanced as a player in recent years.

Either comment on this one or add your own.

The Unseen
09-26-2009, 09:57 PM
Troy Williamson is a better and more productive player than Tavaris Jackson.

It's tautological

Number 10
09-26-2009, 10:55 PM
Ah yes.

I wish I could have taken a picture of the poll that was put up. Talk about every single one of my opposers (aka the entire board) eating crow.

comahan
09-26-2009, 10:57 PM
Doesnt change the fact that when you said it, you were wrong.

(wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong! when you grow up, YOURE GONNA BE WRONG)

cha cha cha.

bored of education
09-26-2009, 10:57 PM
boe > comahan!

Shiver
09-26-2009, 11:01 PM
Eat what crow? I would take Julius Peppers' career over Umenyiora's anyday. Osi isn't even the best DE on his own team; Justin Tuck is godlike I might add.

Thumper
09-26-2009, 11:03 PM
DeSean Jackson > Eddie Royal

Shiver
09-26-2009, 11:05 PM
DeSean Jackson > Eddie Royal


Eddie Royal's 15 minutes are over. He caught a lot of passes because Jay Cutler threw a lot of passes. He didn't even average 10 ypc, I do not think he will ever live up to what he did as a rookie.

YAYareaRB
09-26-2009, 11:05 PM
Eddie Royal > You

bored of education
09-26-2009, 11:05 PM
DeSean Jackson > Eddie Royal

ooooo I'm the biggest Eddie fan here. But i can see where people will say either. So i can't argue.

DoughBoy
09-26-2009, 11:10 PM
Chris Johnson>Steve Slaton & Maurice Jones Drew

Non-Homer pick

Vincent Jackson>Brandon Marshall

scottyboy
09-26-2009, 11:11 PM
Eat what crow? I would take Julius Peppers' career over Umenyiora's anyday. Osi isn't even the best DE on his own team; Justin Tuck is godlike I might add.

ha and again ha. Osi is a better DE than Tuck.

or to sound more rational, was pre-injury and it wasn't close. Now Osi looks rusty and sluggish against the run. We'll see how he looks later in the season.

And really? Peppers' career over Osi's? interesting.

Raymell Rice> Steve Slaton.

the decider13
09-26-2009, 11:14 PM
Chris Johnson>Steve Slaton

Non-Homer pick

Vincent Jackson>Brandon Marshall

In the first 2 games of this season? Yes. Have you even looked at Marshalls stats? He is like 2nd in the NFL for catches and yards over the last 3 years.

DoughBoy
09-26-2009, 11:17 PM
In the first 2 games of this season? Yes. Have you even looked at Marshalls stats? He is like 2nd in the NFL for catches and yards over the last 3 years.

Vincent Jackson> Brandon Marshall

If you want a reason Brandon is a huge dusche and I wouldnt want him on my team.

bored of education
09-26-2009, 11:18 PM
Vincent Jackson> Brandon Marshall

If you want a reason Brandon is a huge dusche and I wouldnt want him on my team.


Great reasoning.

Shiver
09-26-2009, 11:19 PM
Chris Johnson>Steve Slaton & Maurice Jones Drew

Non-Homer pick

Vincent Jackson>Brandon Marshall


I agree with both of those.

1. Chris Johnson is hands down better than Slaton, and although MJD is great he has been surpassed as the best dual threat RB in the NFL. It has gone like this:

Marshall Faulk > Brian Westbrook > Maurice Jones-Drew > Chris Johnson

2. I think we've seen the best from Marshall and I think Jackson is better than him now and will continue to get better.

the decider13
09-26-2009, 11:19 PM
Vincent Jackson> Brandon Marshall

If you want a reason Brandon is a huge dusche and I wouldnt want him on my team.

I think you mean douche...and I really don't think that is enough of a reason. Vincent Jackson has had a very mediocre career up to this point while B Marsh has dominated. There is no debate.

Shiver
09-26-2009, 11:23 PM
ha and again ha. Osi is a better DE than Tuck.

or to sound more rational, was pre-injury and it wasn't close. Now Osi looks rusty and sluggish against the run. We'll see how he looks later in the season.

And really? Peppers' career over Osi's? interesting.

Raymell Rice> Steve Slaton.

Julius Peppers: twice as many pro-bowls, twice as many All-Pro selections, has been brilliant year in and year out, probably will notch 100 sacks in his career.

Umenyiora is a fine player, and at times he has played the best at his position. For the long haul it isn't even close. As it stands now I think Justin Tuck is more integral to that defense and Tuck was the player who won that Super Bowl.

YAYareaRB
09-26-2009, 11:25 PM
Patrick Willis > Everyone

awfullyquiet
09-26-2009, 11:26 PM
i sniff something. it's getting closer!

http://awatermelon.files.wordpress.com/2009/08/f5pm9i5f4uln87c-medium.jpg

MAHAHAHAHAHA..

SenorGato
09-26-2009, 11:29 PM
Chris Johnson>Steve Slaton & Maurice Jones Drew

Non-Homer pick

Vincent Jackson>Brandon Marshall

+1

That said, Dustin Keller = Best young pass catching TE in the league. D'Brick > Joe Thomas.

Tuck > Osi

Ware > Merriman

Andre Johnson > Larry Fitzgerald

Dwayne Bowe > Brandon Marshall.

the decider13
09-26-2009, 11:40 PM
Bowe is much closer to Marshall, but still no.

Shiver
09-26-2009, 11:44 PM
Johnson over Fitzgerald is a good one, Ware over Merriman is a foregone conclusion now although it used to be a classic debate before last year.

the decider13
09-26-2009, 11:47 PM
Ryan Clady>Michael Roos

Thumper
09-26-2009, 11:59 PM
Ryan Clady>Michael Roos

no. Roos is the best LT in the game.

Ryan Clady > Joe Thomas

DoughBoy
09-27-2009, 12:03 AM
Ryan Clady>Michael Roos

I dont know about that one. Clady has potential to be better but he aint there yet. Roos dominates at run and pass blocking. And he is the most important player on our team.

the decider13
09-27-2009, 12:16 AM
I dont know about that one. Clady has potential to be better but he aint there yet. Roos dominates at run and pass blocking. And he is the most important player on our team.

I'm just trying to get some debate going on two comparable players. Clady is probably the most important Bronco at this point, dominated last year and has continued this year.

That being said, Roos is most likely the best LT currently in football. Roos>Clady>Gross

For now

WMD
09-27-2009, 12:19 AM
So what the ****. Who is Player 1 better and more productive than?

You can't leave me hangin like that :(

BamaFalcon59
09-27-2009, 12:24 AM
Matt Ryan is the better and more productive player than Eli Manning.

Not even going to debate it :D.

Giantsfan1080
09-27-2009, 12:25 AM
I think people forget how good of a player Osi is because he was hurt all last year. Tuck plays the run better but Osi can get to the QB better. In SB 42 Osi was on Brady's ass all game allowing Tuck to eat him up.

senormysterioso
09-27-2009, 12:35 AM
Charles Woodson in his prime and right now and also Darrell Revis > Nnamdi Asomugha

and this one is a bit bold but I'll stand by it

Adrian Peterson > Barry Sanders

I grew up watching Barry and he was amazing, but AP is the most incredible physical specimen that I've ever seen. If you were to genetically engineer a perfect running back it would be him.

scottyboy
09-27-2009, 12:37 AM
Julius Peppers: twice as many pro-bowls, twice as many All-Pro selections, has been brilliant year in and year out, probably will notch 100 sacks in his career.

Umenyiora is a fine player, and at times he has played the best at his position. For the long haul it isn't even close. As it stands now I think Justin Tuck is more integral to that defense and Tuck was the player who won that Super Bowl.

fair enough, just wanted to hear your reasoning. that's your opinion but as probably the majority of Giants fans will agree, Osi was a bigger part than Tuck of that game, but the scary 3 pronged attack with Strahan was a group effort.

MasterShake
09-27-2009, 12:55 AM
Frank Gore is a better and more productive player than Steven Jackson.

The two have long been compared due to being in the same division and on bad teams.

Frank Gore is a more consistent, tougher complete back. He plays through injuries and his dedication is second to none and his numbers prove it (all done with no passing game to speak of on his team ever).

I'll take Gore over Jackson thank you.

Vox Populi
09-27-2009, 12:59 AM
The Buffalo Bills are a better and more productive team than the Hamilton Tiger Cats.

senormysterioso
09-27-2009, 01:02 AM
The Buffalo Bills are a better and more productive team than the Hamilton Tiger Cats.

I'd say push

Saints-Tigers
09-27-2009, 01:10 AM
Andre Johnson isn't better than Larry Fitzgerald.

For my money, Calvin Johnson>Andre Johnson.

Actually, I think all things equal, Calvin would outperform any other WR.

So Tron>all.

WMD
09-27-2009, 01:14 AM
Aaron Brown is a better and more productive RB than Reggie Bush!

Saints-Tigers
09-27-2009, 01:15 AM
Nevermind, Lance Moore>Calvin Johnson Jr.

Bosanac01
09-27-2009, 01:21 AM
Tony Gonzalez is better and more productive than any other TE in history.

Xenos
09-27-2009, 01:57 AM
Johnson over Fitzgerald is a good one, Ware over Merriman is a foregone conclusion now although it used to be a classic debate before last year.
Hardly. Merriman is still showing some rust from missing last year, but it's hardly a foregone conclusion. Even despite a sluggish start, he still makes plays like that Flacco interception where he perfectly timed his rush with the snap.

Bengalsrocket
09-27-2009, 02:16 AM
I grew up watching Barry and he was amazing, but AP is the most incredible physical specimen that I've ever seen. If you were to genetically engineer a perfect running back it would be him.


If I genetically engineered a running back I would make a man 12 feet tall and 330 lbs, with 4 arms and spikes on his back.

Just kidding, but seriously, I agree - I know it's cliche but AP really is as close as we've seen to the perfect "Size and speed" combination that we have seen to date.

nobodyinparticular
09-27-2009, 02:23 AM
If I genetically engineered a running back I would make a man 12 feet tall and 330 lbs, with 4 arms and spikes on his back.

Just kidding, but seriously, I agree - I know it's cliche but AP really is as close as we've seen to the perfect "Size and speed" combination that we have seen to date.

Bo Jackson says hi.

RyanLeafWasGood
09-27-2009, 02:36 AM
Bo Jackson would have been good had he played Football. He was a good baseball player though go Royals!

Bosanac01
09-27-2009, 02:38 AM
If only he didn't get hurt. What a career that would have been.

Bengalsrocket
09-27-2009, 03:30 AM
Bo Jackson basically is the same size / speed combo as Adrian Peterson right?

NFL.com has them both listed at 6-1 and roughly 220 lbs (Peterson @ 217 & Jackson @ 227). I'm comparing AP more to other great backs of different sizes and speeds, such as:

LaDanian Tomlinson: 5-11, 221

Emmitt Smith: 5-9, 216

Ricky Watters: 6-1, 211

Walter Payton: 5-10, 200

Barry Sanders: 5-8, 200

Jim Brown: 6-2, 232

Marshall Faulk: 5-10, 211

Terrel Davis: 5-11, 206

Thurman Thomas: 5-10, 200

Eric Dickerson: 6-3, 220

Jerome Bettis: 5-11, 252

Tony Dorsett: 5-11, 192

The only guys that even come remotely close to height and weight of AP (or Bo Jackson) are Eric Dickerson and LT.

And yes, I'm aware that there is a lot more to the "size and speed" part of being a halfback than his height and weight, I just don't have a scale for muscle mass or total body fat or all of their 10-20-40 yard dash times.

Saints-Tigers
09-27-2009, 04:18 AM
Bo Jackson was like 6'1 230, but the speed difference might be bigger than the weight difference.... that's the scary part.

Either way, Peterson might have better measurables than Sanders, but I care about results... Barry has Peterson beat there.

yo123
09-27-2009, 04:50 AM
Bo Jackson was like 6'1 230, but the speed difference might be bigger than the weight difference.... that's the scary part.

Either way, Peterson might have better measurables than Sanders, but I care about results... Barry has Peterson beat there.


Over a career, yes. But if compare both of their numbers for their first two years...AD is right there with him.

AD- 3201 yards, 5.16 YPC, 22 TD
Barry- 2774 yards 5.19 YPC 27 TD

Calvin & Kevin
09-27-2009, 07:44 AM
It's true that AD>Barry as an all-around back and the perfect physical specimen at RB. We all know that Barry had some holes in his game like pass catching, power running, blocking, consistent performance within the game plan.

But Barry>everybody ever when it comes to doing amazing and sick things on the football field. I watched nearly every game of his career and in just about every one he dropped at least 3-5 moves on someone that made your jaw hang open.

AD has plays where he outruns guys or makes a cut and takes it to the house, but he is not in Barry's league when it comes to highlight-reel plays and moves. No one is or ever has been.

Brodeur
09-27-2009, 08:17 AM
So what the ****. Who is Player 1 better and more productive than?

You can't leave me hangin like that :(

Player 1 is better and more productive than Ernie Sims.

sbh15
09-27-2009, 08:34 AM
Percy Harvin > NFL Rookies

Gay Ork Wang
09-27-2009, 09:43 AM
Johnny Knox > Percy Harvin > NFL Rookies

Fixed it for you

BufFan71
09-27-2009, 10:23 AM
Fred Jackson > Marshawn Lynch?

DeepThreat
09-27-2009, 10:41 AM
Joe Thomas > All

Did anyone see him shut down Jared Allen?

The Unseen
09-27-2009, 11:23 AM
Fred Jackson > Marshawn Lynch?

my Fred Jackson-anchored fantasy team says yes

Crickett
09-27-2009, 11:32 AM
D'Brickashaw Fergson has a longer name than Joe Thomas.

Louis Murphy is not related to Eddie Murphy.

Mark Sanchez is doing a lot of Toyota commercials. And he's better than Brady Quinn.

PoopSandwich
09-27-2009, 11:32 AM
Kellen Winslow Jr. is more productive than any tight end in the AFC

Now that Tony Gonzalez is out of the AFC I believe the NFC south has the two most "PRODUCTIVE" tight ends in the league. Kellen Winslow's ability to absolutely school linebackers on routes and catch passes in traffic makes him one of the biggest threats at tight end in the game. His height/strength makes him difficult to take down and gives him the advantage on almost everyone who covers him. The AFC has great tight ends, don't get me wrong, but if I have to choose a tight end in this league for a pass catching offense (imagine K2 in NE/NO) I will be choosing K2.

I am a huge homer when it comes to K2, but I honestly think WHEN HEALTHY he is right up there with Tony Gonzalez as the best pass catching tight end in the league.

bored of education
09-27-2009, 11:44 AM
Aso couldn't cover Tony. Tony is a top 5 blocker as well and the best receiving TE. Kellen, when healthy is good. But as you know the when/if healthy statement automatically drops you off the cliff. So no. Todd Heap right now > K2. ;)

bored of education
09-27-2009, 11:44 AM
Aso couldn't cover Tony. Tony is a top 5 blocker as well and the best recieving TE. Kellen, when healthy is good. But as you know the when/if healthy statement automatically drops you off the cliff. So no. Todd Heap right now > K2. ;)

yourfavestoner
09-27-2009, 01:10 PM
Jimmy Smith is better and more productive at sniffing coke than Matt Jones.

Flyboy
09-27-2009, 01:44 PM
Devery Henderson > Bernard Berrian.

bernbabybern820
09-27-2009, 01:48 PM
Charles Woodson in his prime and right now and also Darrell Revis > Nnamdi Asomugha

and this one is a bit bold but I'll stand by it

Adrian Peterson > Barry Sanders

I grew up watching Barry and he was amazing, but AP is the most incredible physical specimen that I've ever seen. If you were to genetically engineer a perfect running back it would be him.

I hope you're watching the Jets game right now.

Chucky
09-27-2009, 02:32 PM
Josh Johnson>>>>>Byron Leftwich

Boston
09-27-2009, 05:51 PM
Aaron Rodgers is a better and more productive God then yours.

BufFan71
09-27-2009, 05:54 PM
Any QB in the NFL > Trent Edwards

Pb&j
09-27-2009, 06:16 PM
Kellen Winslow Jr. is more productive than any tight end in the AFC

Now that Tony Gonzalez is out of the AFC I believe the NFC south has the two most "PRODUCTIVE" tight ends in the league. Kellen Winslow's ability to absolutely school linebackers on routes and catch passes in traffic makes him one of the biggest threats at tight end in the game. His height/strength makes him difficult to take down and gives him the advantage on almost everyone who covers him. The AFC has great tight ends, don't get me wrong, but if I have to choose a tight end in this league for a pass catching offense (imagine K2 in NE/NO) I will be choosing K2.

I am a huge homer when it comes to K2, but I honestly think WHEN HEALTHY he is right up there with Tony Gonzalez as the best pass catching tight end in the league.

Too bad he has no knees anymore and is a push-off machine.

Brodeur
09-27-2009, 06:16 PM
Any QB in the NFL > Trent Edwards

Jason Campbell and JaMarcus Russell disagree.

The Unseen
09-27-2009, 06:21 PM
Jason Campbell and JaMarcus Russell disagree.

Jason Campbell had nice stats...did i miss something

Jakey
09-27-2009, 06:54 PM
Steelers mistake making > Your mistake making

soybean
09-27-2009, 07:06 PM
desean jackson + kevin kolb > calvin johnson + matthew stafford

SuperMcGee
09-27-2009, 07:07 PM
Fred Jackson > Marshawn Lynch?

I've been saying this for a while now. Jackson has been killing it as an every down guy, but I'm excited for the split.

I'd like to think of another big name to compare Freddy to here, but I'll just say that he's been playing better than most. And I mean most.

BufFan71
09-27-2009, 07:36 PM
Jason Campbell and JaMarcus Russell disagree.

excuse me, as Trent is DEAD afraid to throw anything BUT a checkdown



u have Lee Evans, and T0, and refuse to throw to them?
he doesnt even look downfield.
if he doesnt get 5 seconds in the pocket he gets flustered and runs around like an idiot

the decider13
09-27-2009, 07:36 PM
Joe Thomas > All

Did anyone see him shut down Jared Allen?

Except for Clady, Roos, and Gross.

Beans
09-27-2009, 07:57 PM
Josh Johnson>>>>>Byron Leftwich

Josh Johnson>>>>>Byron Leftwich

Josh Johnson>>>>>Byron Leftwich

Josh Johnson>>>>>Byron Leftwich

cant quote this enough

MetSox17
09-27-2009, 08:45 PM
Cedric Benson >> Matt Forte.:eek:

Rosebud
09-28-2009, 01:39 AM
Eat what crow? I would take Julius Peppers' career over Umenyiora's anyday. Osi isn't even the best DE on his own team; Justin Tuck is godlike I might add.

Osi's been having the worst year of his career playing the run, but before his injury last season he was a better DE than Tuck has yet to be. A significantly better pass rusher and back then he was a stud against the run as well, we'll see how things go from here and whether osi can become strong against the run again.

As for the topic at hand, I'm going to go with BBD is a better and more productive player than Antonio Pierce. If I'm going to be serious, Ahmad Bradshaw is a better and more productive player than Brandon Jacobs. :eek:

Lee Evans > TO (he can catch the deep ball)
Aso > Revis > Corey Webster > Charles Woodson > Sheldon Brown > Rest of the NFL

Rosebud
09-28-2009, 01:51 AM
excuse me, as Trent is DEAD afraid to throw anything BUT a checkdown



u have Lee Evans, and T0, and refuse to throw to them?
he doesnt even look downfield.
if he doesnt get 5 seconds in the pocket he gets flustered and runs around like an idiot

If TO decided to catch a deep ball once in a blue moon maybe Trent would go to him more often, TO's getting separation but damn have his ball skills gone to all hell.

BlindSite
09-28-2009, 01:56 AM
Aso couldn't cover Tony. Tony is a top 5 blocker as well and the best recieving TE. Kellen, when healthy is good. But as you know the when/if healthy statement automatically drops you off the cliff. So no. Todd Heap right now > K2. ;)

Tony a top 5 blocker, based on what? He's undoubtedly the best pass receiver in the NFL at the tight end position, but he is one of the least utilised blockers at the position. He's not top 5 as a blocker, hell last year he blocked on average once in the passing game per game played, that's next to nothing as a playing sample to gauge how good he is goes.

MetSox17
09-28-2009, 01:59 AM
I don't want mine to get lost in the shuffle of everything, so i'll say it again.

Cedric Benson is a better and more productive player than Matt Forte! Take that, Bears! ;)

mellojello
09-28-2009, 02:11 AM
Jahvid Best > Shady McCoy

Bengalsrocket
09-28-2009, 02:18 AM
Tony a top 5 blocker, based on what? He's undoubtedly the best pass receiver in the NFL at the tight end position, but he is one of the least utilised blockers at the position. He's not top 5 as a blocker, hell last year he blocked on average once in the passing game per game played, that's next to nothing as a playing sample to gauge how good he is goes.

I know what you're saying, but he really has been a good blocker over the years for KC, this is based on watching his technique and fundamentals.

note: I'm not ranking his blocking. Just noting that the guy has been in the league for 13+ years (don't care to look up the exact amount of years he's played) and been blocking well for the last 6-7 (at least) when asked to, anyways.

BlindSite
09-28-2009, 02:26 AM
I know what you're saying, but he really has been a good blocker over the years for KC, this is based on watching his technique and fundamentals.

note: I'm not ranking his blocking. Just noting that the guy has been in the league for 13+ years (don't care to look up the exact amount of years he's played) and been blocking well for the last 6-7 (at least) when asked to, anyways.

I saw him play both the first two weeks of this year and I'm not saying he cannot block, I'm just saying he's not a blocking weapon. Blocking shouldn't be considered something that is just "done" the elite guys when blocking make massive differences to games and Tony Gonzalez is not one of the NFL's best blocking tight ends.

He is probably amongst the top receiving tight ends at blocking, but as a pure blocker, top 5 is really stretching it.

Bengalsrocket
09-28-2009, 02:38 AM
I saw him play both the first two weeks of this year and I'm not saying he cannot block, I'm just saying he's not a blocking weapon. Blocking shouldn't be considered something that is just "done" the elite guys when blocking make massive differences to games and Tony Gonzalez is not one of the NFL's best blocking tight ends.

He is probably amongst the top receiving tight ends at blocking, but as a pure blocker, top 5 is really stretching it.

I've got no disagreements with this post. I even think you put it best, it's possible Tony G is one of the best receiving TEs at blocking, not the best blocking TE.

Although, I consider Jeremy Shockey a receiving TE and I think he's a better blocker than Tony G (but not nearly the receiver Tony G is).

Gay Ork Wang
09-28-2009, 04:35 AM
I don't want mine to get lost in the shuffle of everything, so i'll say it again.

Cedric Benson is a better and more productive player than Matt Forte! Take that, Bears! ;)
i suppose the productive right now is right. Better....

Bengalsrocket
09-28-2009, 04:46 AM
i suppose the productive right now is right. Better....

lol let's not start this up, they both play fairly different roles in their respective systems.

Cedric is a 2 down back we use to pound the ball and keep pressure off Palmer.

Forte is a pseudo every down back that can catch out of the back field. And I don't mean pseudo as an insult, I mean that I feel he would better in a 2 back system (note: I believe 80-90% of the backs currently in the league would be better in a 2 back system), but obviously Adrian Peterson2 & Garrett Wolfe can't take much of the work load for you in Chicago.

Gay Ork Wang
09-28-2009, 05:13 AM
true, but the Bears Oline is just abysmal

MetSox17
09-28-2009, 05:40 AM
The Bungles aren't exactly rolling out Jonathan Ogden and Larry Allen out there either.

I actually think Benson and Forte are very similar players. I can't speak much for Forte, but man, seeing Benson block out there on passing downs is a thing of beauty. Today he was clocking blitzers left and right.

Gay Ork Wang
09-28-2009, 05:49 AM
The Bungles aren't exactly rolling out Jonathan Ogden and Larry Allen out there either.

I actually think Benson and Forte are very similar players. I can't speak much for Forte, but man, seeing Benson block out there on passing downs is a thing of beauty. Today he was clocking blitzers left and right.
have you seen the Bears Oline? i havent seen a hole since preseason

BufFan71
09-28-2009, 06:57 AM
If TO decided to catch a deep ball once in a blue moon maybe Trent would go to him more often, TO's getting separation but damn have his ball skills gone to all hell.

he caught one last week...

yesterday trent threw two TERRIBLE passes...

one of them would have put us up 14-10, as T0 was wide open

Miaoww
09-28-2009, 07:36 AM
I agree with both of those.

1. Chris Johnson is hands down better than Slaton, and although MJD is great he has been surpassed as the best dual threat RB in the NFL. It has gone like this:

Marshall Faulk > Brian Westbrook > Maurice Jones-Drew > Chris Johnson

2. I think we've seen the best from Marshall and I think Jackson is better than him now and will continue to get better.

The Edge is in there somewhere. Pre knee injury he was incredible.

Miaoww
09-28-2009, 07:43 AM
Frank Gore is a better and more productive player than Steven Jackson.

The two have long been compared due to being in the same division and on bad teams.

Frank Gore is a more consistent, tougher complete back. He plays through injuries and his dedication is second to none and his numbers prove it (all done with no passing game to speak of on his team ever).

I'll take Gore over Jackson thank you.

That's a tough one, I'm not sure who I'd choose out of those two - they both bring something special to the table. I'd be happy with either, assuming the Panthers didn't already have Stewart and Williams.

no bare feet
09-28-2009, 08:03 AM
I would think it is safe to say Ryan Clady is better than any other left tackle.

EvilNixon
09-28-2009, 08:26 AM
Matthew Stafford>>>>>>Mark Sanchez.

DeepThreat
09-28-2009, 10:14 AM
I would think it is safe to say Ryan Clady is better than any other left tackle.

Except Joe Thomas.

no bare feet
09-28-2009, 10:43 AM
Except Joe Thomas.

Let me guess, you are a Browns fan?

MetSox17
09-28-2009, 10:47 AM
have you seen the Bears Oline? i havent seen a hole since preseason

I'm curious to know what has been the biggest change from last year to this. If anything, the addition of Cutler should have created a better run game for them. I really haven't paid much attention to the o-line play for the Bears.

Gay Ork Wang
09-28-2009, 10:52 AM
I'm curious to know what has been the biggest change from last year to this. If anything, the addition of Cutler should have created a better run game for them. I really haven't paid much attention to the o-line play for the Bears.
The Oline has been horrible and the last 2 games at least, they tried to stack the box and let Cutler beat them. And he did.

no bare feet
09-28-2009, 10:54 AM
The Oline has been horrible and the last 2 games at least, they tried to stack the box and let Cutler beat them. And he did.

So, if I was to draw any conclusions from your statement..it is that Cutler is awesome?

RyanLeafWasGood
09-28-2009, 10:55 AM
I would think it is safe to say Ryan Clady is better than any other left tackle.

Michael Roos would like to have a word with you.

P-L
09-28-2009, 11:06 AM
2008 and 2009 season combines

Jeff Backus: 19 games, 10.25 sacks allowed, 6 False Start penalties, 6 Holding penalties
Ryan Clady: 19 games, 0.5 sacks allowed, 1 False Start penalty, 1 Holding penalty
Michael Roos: 19 games, 2 sacks allowed, 6 False Start penalties, 0 Holding penalties
Joe Thomas: 19 games, 5.5 sacks allowed, 5 False Start penalties, 1 Holding penalty

I'll let you draw your own conclusions, based on how much you value stats for offensive linemen.

sbh15
09-28-2009, 11:07 AM
I'm just going to go ahead and say that Jay Cutler is a top 5 QB.

He's better than last year, maybe not statistically, but from a leading aspect.

awfullyquiet
09-28-2009, 11:16 AM
I'm curious to know what has been the biggest change from last year to this. If anything, the addition of Cutler should have created a better run game for them. I really haven't paid much attention to the o-line play for the Bears.

Orlando Pace is stiff. Chris Williams isn't enough of a mauler to push on the right side. Garza hasn't looked half bad, and Kreutz is just getting keyed on in gap assignments.

As importantly Omiyale just doesn't look comfortable in the left guard position.

Cutler has helped in the pass blocking, but the run blocking has been poor at best especially on the right side, Forte can't hit a hole that's not there, and all he really has is moving outside, he's quick, he's not chris johnson quick to be able to consistently move outside and pound the ball off tackle.

DoughBoy
09-28-2009, 11:29 AM
2008 and 2009 season combines

Jeff Backus: 19 games, 10.25 sacks allowed, 6 False Start penalties, 6 Holding penalties
Ryan Clady: 19 games, 0.5 sacks allowed, 1 False Start penalty, 1 Holding penalty
Michael Roos: 19 games, 2 sacks allowed, 6 False Start penalties, 0 Holding penalties
Joe Thomas: 19 games, 5.5 sacks allowed, 5 False Start penalties, 1 Holding penalty

I'll let you draw your own conclusions, based on how much you value stats for offensive linemen.

Im not going to judge right now because I never watch Clady run block, but I would be willing to bet that Michael Roos is much better . Ill watch him the next time I see a Broncos game.

nobodyinparticular
09-28-2009, 01:17 PM
Bo Jackson basically is the same size / speed combo as Adrian Peterson right?

NFL.com has them both listed at 6-1 and roughly 220 lbs (Peterson @ 217 & Jackson @ 227). I'm comparing AP more to other great backs of different sizes and speeds, such as:


Bo Jackson was MUCH bigger in terms of thickness than Adrian Peterson and quite a bit faster. That's the crazy part--Jackson was ridiculously fast. Peterson is amazing, but Jackson was more amazing.

katnip
09-28-2009, 01:22 PM
Who would you guys rather have Texans Andre Johnson or Larry Fitzgerald. They're not my teams. But both had average to below average QB's for a couple years right?

Rosebud
09-28-2009, 03:16 PM
I'd take andre johnson over fitz because he's the esecond best deep threat behind randy, which changes coverage a lot more than a dominant intermediate receiver like fitzy and Roos over clady because they're both exceptional pass blockers while Roos is one of the best run blocking LT.

BlindSite
09-28-2009, 04:51 PM
Im not going to judge right now because I never watch Clady run block, but I would be willing to bet that Michael Roos is much better . But Ill watch him the next time I see a Broncos game.

These stats also completely ignore how good the quarterback is at avoiding stats.

Or for that matter run blocking. The reason why Certain guys are held in higher regard than others who gave up slightly less sacks has more to do with simple numbers of sacks allowed and how many times they flinch, if you've got a QB with a slow release (Roethlisberger) you're going to look a lot worse than a guy who fires it out overly quick.

Cicero
09-28-2009, 05:47 PM
Tashard Choice is at worst better than 50% of starting RBs in the NFL.

BlindSite
09-28-2009, 06:03 PM
Tashard Choice is at worst better than 50% of starting RBs in the NFL.

Funny thing is he'd be a third stringer in Carolina.

Bosanac01
09-28-2009, 06:33 PM
Funny thing is he'd be a third stringer in Carolina.

The funny thing is he's a third stringer already. :confused:

senormysterioso
09-28-2009, 07:25 PM
Tashard Choice is at worst better than 50% of starting RBs in the NFL.

I think I'm gonna have to ask you to defend that one,

Buffalo; Fred Jackson and Marshawn Lynch. no
Miami; Ronnie Brown. no
New England; He probably wouldn't start but he'd get more carries than he does. Maybe
New York: He'd get carries, but I'd take Shonn Green and Leon Washington as a change of pace over him. no

Baltimore: Willis and Ray Rice...no
Cincinnati: Cedric Benson has looked like a monster. no
Cleveland: Yes, probably but I really like Davis
Pittsburgh: Willie Parker, Rashard Mendenhall, no

Houston: Steve Slaton, I wouldn't...some might, maybe
Indy: Addai, Brown. no
Jacksonville: MJD, no
Tennessee: Chris Johnson, no

Denver: Knowshon Moreno, no
Chiefs: Larry Johnson, he wouldn't start over LJ but he may be as productive...I'll say maybe
Raiders: DMC, Micheal Bush. no
San Diego: LT and Sproles, no

Dallas: Obviously not...he's 3rd team
New York: Brandon Jacobs, no
Philly: Westbrook, McCoy..no
Washington: Portis, Betts no

Chicago: Forte, no
Minnesota: Peterson, Taylor. NO!!
Green Bay: Grant, eh...maybe
Lions: Kevin Smith, no

Falcons: Turner, no
Panthers: Williams, Stewart, no
Saints: Thomas, Bush, Bell, no
Tampa Bay: Williams, Ward, Graham, no

Arizona: Wells, at this moment yes...but I'd rather have Wells longterm so no
St Louis: Jackson, no
San Fran: Gore, no
Seattle: Jones, no

In my opinion, there's one team maybe two (Cleveland and New England) in the NFL that Tashard Choice would probably start for. And only a handful of teams he's better than the second guy. He's never even had a 100 yard game

SchizophrenicBatman
09-28-2009, 08:10 PM
Felix Jones >>>>>>>>>>> Darren McFadden

katnip
09-28-2009, 08:18 PM
Felix Jones >>>>>>>>>>> Darren McFadden

Peyton Hillis >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Felix Jones > Darren McFadden

Hillis is a beast

Crickett
09-28-2009, 08:31 PM
Nobody is better than Jake Delhomme.















At throwing interceptions.

P-L
09-29-2009, 01:00 PM
It's too bad Felix Jones isn't on a team that would use him more (why didn't he have more than 10 touches before he got hurt?). I really love watching him play.

Geo
09-29-2009, 01:02 PM
I don't think the problem is the Cowboys. He needs to stay healthy, so they can give me more touches. He's their best playmaker by far, they know that.

CC.SD
09-29-2009, 01:07 PM
Nobody is better than Jake Delhomme.





At throwing interceptions.


Jamarcus Russell can throw an interception from 80 yards away!

jimmylishis
09-29-2009, 08:47 PM
chester taylor>any other 2nd string RB

CC.SD
09-29-2009, 08:55 PM
chester taylor>any other 2nd string RB

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_ano9E-9c7t4/ScxjFSFujGI/AAAAAAAAD1w/2Me-9FGXJFo/s400/darren-sproles.ROBERTBECK.SI.jpg

Let's face it, the shortie breaks games.

Giantsfan1080
09-29-2009, 08:57 PM
Ahmad Bradshaw also says hi.

Brodeur
09-29-2009, 08:58 PM
chester taylor>any other 2nd string RB

Leon Washington, Darren Sproles, Felix Jones, Willis McGahee/Ray Rice (whoever the **** is the backup there), Jonathan Stewart, and Ahmad Bradshaw disagree.

MetSox17
09-29-2009, 09:05 PM
Add Fred Jackson there too.

Rosebud
09-29-2009, 09:07 PM
Leon Washington, Darren Sproles, Felix Jones, Willis McGahee/Ray Rice (whoever the **** is the backup there), Jonathan Stewart, and Ahmad Bradshaw disagree.

I'd add Fred Jackson and maybe even Lenwhale to that list.

DeepThreat
09-29-2009, 09:08 PM
Except for Clady, Roos, and Gross.

Little late getting here, but no. JT hasn't gotten beat at all this year. He has been completely dominant.

CC.SD
09-29-2009, 09:11 PM
Little late getting here, but no. JT hasn't gotten beat at all this year. He has been completely dominant.

Clady is ridiculous. How did this guy fall to 12, it makes no sense. What a miss by the scouts. At least Roos had to develop.

thule
09-29-2009, 09:13 PM
Felix Jones is better and more productive than Bo Jackson.

ESPN put up an intersting stat on Monday that Felix Jones became the first running back since Bo Jackson in 1987 to have at least 400 yards in his first 50 carries.

Jackson had 424 yards on his first 50 carries. Jones had 438 yards on his first 50 carries.

Here's the breakdown:

FELIX JONES

2008
at Cleveland - 9 carries, 62 yards
vs. Philadelphia - 3 carries, 10 yards
at Green Bay - 6 carries, 76 yards
vs. Washington - 0 carries, 0 yards
vs. Cincinnati - 9 carries, 96 yards
at Arizona - 3 carries, 22 yards
2009
at Tampa Bay - 6 carries, 22 yards
vs. NY Giants - 7 carries, 96 yards
vs. Carolina - 8 carries, 94 yards
Totals - 51 carries, 478 yards

BO JACKSON
1987
at New England - 8 carries, 37 yards
at Minnesota - 12 carries, 74 yards
at San Diego - 8 carries, 45 yards
vs. Denver - 13 carries, 98 yards
at Seattle - 18 carries, 221 yards
Totals - 59 carries, 475 yards

Ravens1991
09-29-2009, 09:18 PM
Joe Flacco>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Matt Ryan



would you all agree that? I know I am very biased but Flacco is putting up pro bowl like #s with absolutely nothing as recieving options

Shiver
09-29-2009, 09:19 PM
Screw you, jk, not really. Actually they are both really, really good. I would still take Matt Ryan for consistency, poise and leadership.

MetSox17
09-29-2009, 09:22 PM
Joe Flacco>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Matt Ryan



would you all agree that? I know I am very biased but Flacco is putting up pro bowl like #s with absolutely nothing as recieving options

No, i would definitely not agree to that.

Ravens1991
09-29-2009, 09:25 PM
Really why would you say that? I assume you will bring up the strength of the Ravens schedule and that is fair enough

CC.SD
09-29-2009, 09:27 PM
If Flacco and Ryan both reach their ceilings, Flacco will be better. But this year is still up in the air, 3 weeks is still a small enough sample that you have to consider the teams they played.

Ravens1991
09-29-2009, 09:30 PM
good point, Flacco does have better physical tools(Ryans are still nice though) Both look very good I think it will be decided who is better in 10 years when there careers are over with

Rosebud
09-29-2009, 09:38 PM
Definitely too soon to crown Flacco although he's clearly taken a step from last season. I don't know whom I'd give the nod to between him and Ryan but it's too close to call in either one's favor at this point, ryan has the better weapons, flacco the better running game and far better oline, so I don't think one can use their surrounding talent as much of a tie-breaker.

Shiver
09-29-2009, 11:37 PM
Ryan played pretty well against New England, we just didn't have the ball. The defense couldn't get them off the field. There was a TD pass to Mike Jenkins that was called back as well.

Cicero
09-29-2009, 11:44 PM
I think I'm gonna have to ask you to defend that one,

Buffalo; Fred Jackson and Marshawn Lynch. no
Miami; Ronnie Brown. no
New England; Yes
New York: Yes

Baltimore: Willis and Ray Rice...no
Cincinnati: Cedric Benson has looked like a monster. no
Cleveland: Yes
Pittsburgh: Yes

Houston: Yes
Indy: Yes
Jacksonville: MJD, no
Tennessee: Chris Johnson, no

Denver: Knowshon Moreno, no
Chiefs: Yes
Raiders: DMC, Micheal Bush. no
San Diego: Yes

Dallas: Obviously not...he's 3rd team
New York: Brandon Jacobs, no
Philly: Westbrook, McCoy..no
Washington: Yes

Chicago: Forte, no
Minnesota: Peterson, Taylor. NO!!
Green Bay: Yes
Lions: Iffy

Falcons: Turner, no
Panthers: Williams, Stewart, no
Saints: Thomas, Bush, Bell, no
Tampa Bay: Yes

Arizona: Yes
St Louis: Jackson, no
San Fran: Gore, no
Seattle: Yes x9000

In my opinion, there's one team maybe two (Cleveland and New England) in the NFL that Tashard Choice would probably start for. And only a handful of teams he's better than the second guy. He's never even had a 100 yard game
Alright I was wrong. I'm at 13. I changed all the teams I think he is more talented than their starting RB to "yes" from your list.

Bengalsrocket
09-29-2009, 11:47 PM
Last year, watching a lot of both Flacco and Ryan - I felt like they were night and day. I know a lot of people here were impressed with both of their rookie seasons, as was I, but Ryans (in my opinion anyways) was clearly a much better season.

Flacco although had lots of very good plays, he also had a lot of very boneheaded plays and it seemed like he was bailed out by his defense or running game after every single mistake.

However, Flacco this year is like a completely different player. He stays in the pocket (when necessary anyways, I actually like when he goes mobile sometimes - similar to big Ben), makes extremely hard throws, has good footwork and the most important difference is it seems he's able to read the defense now.

I hate to say it, but I'm afraid Flacco is going to be the best QB in the division by the end of the year :(.

And lastly, if both Flacco and Ryan are compared to each other for the rest of their careers, I don't think anyone will ever be able to say which one is "better" even after they retire. They both just look to be developing nicely, and will hopefully turn into the future elite QB's of this league.

d34ng3l021
09-30-2009, 12:33 AM
Joe Flacco>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Matt Ryan



would you all agree that? I know I am very biased but Flacco is putting up pro bowl like #s with absolutely nothing as recieving options

Flacco has been extremely impressive, but I do question the kind of talent he has played so far. Outside the nice win in San Diego, he has shredded the Cleveland Browns and the Kansas City Chiefs. An impressive test and 'measuring stick' might be when the Ravens go to play New England, just like Ryan and the Falcons did this past week.

vikes_28
09-30-2009, 12:58 AM
Favre > all

Rosebud
09-30-2009, 01:21 AM
Buffalo; Fred Jackson and Marshawn Lynch. no
Miami; Ronnie Brown. no
New England; Yes Personally I take Fred Taylor over Choice although in a year or two that might be no longer the case.
New York: Yes No way does Choice start over Leon Washington

Baltimore: Willis and Ray Rice...no
Cincinnati: Cedric Benson has looked like a monster. no
Cleveland: Yes
Pittsburgh: Yes ??? I think you're completely under-rating how bad that OL is in pittsburgh and how good the cowboy's OL is at run blocking.

Houston: Yes
Indy: Yes Again this one is at most debateable and personally I give the nod to Donald Brown and Addai.
Jacksonville: MJD, no
Tennessee: Chris Johnson, no

Denver: Knowshon Moreno, no
Chiefs: Yes
Raiders: DMC, Micheal Bush. no
San Diego: Yes Sproles > Choice, easy.

Dallas: Obviously not...he's 3rd team
New York: Brandon Jacobs, no
Philly: Westbrook, McCoy..no
Washington: Yes Portis, are you high? Because I wish I was but even if I were I would know better than to think Choice is close to Portis' level.

Chicago: Forte, no
Minnesota: Peterson, Taylor. NO!!
Green Bay: Yes
Lions: Iffy

Falcons: Turner, no
Panthers: Williams, Stewart, no
Saints: Thomas, Bush, Bell, no
Tampa Bay: Yes

Arizona: Yes
St Louis: Jackson, no
San Fran: Gore, no
Seattle: Yes x9000


Alright I was wrong. I'm at 13. I changed all the teams I think he is more talented than their starting RB to "yes" from your list.

Responses in bold.

Geo
09-30-2009, 02:45 AM
Choice would be third-string at best with the Colts. Thanks for the laugh though.

Cicero
09-30-2009, 03:04 AM
Responses in bold.

I'm only talking about starting RBs. I didn't include backups who are better than the starter in my statement. Choice > Thomas Jones, LT, and Addia in my opinion. For the record I think Donald Brown is better.

Fred Taylor? I really don't know what to tell you there. He had one good game. He is not a receiving threat out of the backfield at all. Oh and did I forget he's 33 years old?

Portis is not the same player he once was. He's always battling some injury and he doesn't look as explosive as he used to be. This isn't the 2005 Clinton Portis.

I fully expected to take some flack for that one but that's really what this thread is about is making controversial statements on players that you think are better than everyone else does.

awfullyquiet
09-30-2009, 08:45 AM
Joe Flacco>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Matt Ryan



would you all agree that? I know I am very biased but Flacco is putting up pro bowl like #s with absolutely nothing as recieving options

I think that's problem 1 there.

CC.SD
09-30-2009, 09:35 AM
I'm only talking about starting RBs. I didn't include backups who are better than the starter in my statement. Choice > Thomas Jones, LT, and Addia in my opinion. For the record I think Donald Brown is better.

I fully expected to take some flack for that one but that's really what this thread is about is making controversial statements on players that you think are better than everyone else does.

I'm glad you expect to take some flak because Choice is a nobody. Ladainian has not even started his season and that's still a ridiculous statement.

killxswitch
09-30-2009, 09:44 AM
E Manning > P Rivers

Or is it the other way around? I guess we need more time, I want to say Rivers but I don't like him, I do like Manning, and Manning has won a SB.

Sniper
09-30-2009, 09:46 AM
Joe Flacco>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Matt Ryan

would you all agree that? I know I am very biased but Flacco is putting up pro bowl like #s with absolutely nothing as recieving options

No. Matt Ryan is glorious. I was one of his biggest doubters before the draft. Crow sure is yummy.

CC.SD
09-30-2009, 09:48 AM
E Manning > P Rivers

Or is it the other way around? I guess we need more time, I want to say Rivers but I don't like him, I do like Manning, and Manning has won a SB.

http://i215.photobucket.com/albums/cc48/RedMorganna/CDC/ImpliedFacePalm.jpg

I'm alright with actually having this conversation later with someone else.

killxswitch
09-30-2009, 10:06 AM
I'm alright with actually having this conversation later with someone else.

What's the problem? Manning has come on strong as a passer and leader the last few seasons and has won a SB. Rivers has had a ton of talent to work with since he started and hasn't even gotten to the AFCCG. I'm not saying SBs are everything, but they do count for something. He had one excellent year personally in '08 but did not lead his team to a winning record and lucked into the playoffs, had a horrible wildcard game, and had a great but losing 2nd game. His other two starting years were good but not remarkably better than anything Manning has done.

I"m sure there are arguments for both sides, I just don't understand what your problem is. Is it that I don't like Rivers? Are you one of those weird Charger fans that defends him as a person like he's your dad?

CC.SD
09-30-2009, 10:09 AM
What's the problem? Manning has come on strong as a passer and leader the last few seasons and has won a SB. Rivers has had a ton of talent to work with since he started and hasn't even gotten to the AFCCG. I'm not saying SBs are everything, but they do count for something. He had one excellent year personally in '08 but did not lead his team to a winning record and lucked into the playoffs, had a horrible wildcard game, and had a great but losing 2nd game. His other two starting years were good but not remarkably better than anything Manning has done.

I"m sure there are arguments for both sides, I just don't understand what your problem is. Is it that I don't like Rivers? Are you one of those weird Charger fans that defends him as a person like he's your dad?

No it's a reasonable debate for sure. Your first post was a little back and forth and probably deserved an implied facepalm. Your facts are wrong btw, and not just a little wrong. I'll bust out the diatribe later but #1 would probably be the fact that Rivers' most crucial game was in fact the AFC championship game that you say he's never been to. You know, when he played on a torn ACL and almost knocked off the 17-0 Pats. Oops, right?

and yah he's my dad.

Gay Ork Wang
09-30-2009, 10:10 AM
What's the problem? Manning has come on strong as a passer and leader the last few seasons and has won a SB. Rivers has had a ton of talent to work with since he started and hasn't even gotten to the AFCCG. I'm not saying SBs are everything, but they do count for something. He had one excellent year personally in '08 but did not lead his team to a winning record and lucked into the playoffs, had a horrible wildcard game, and had a great but losing 2nd game. His other two starting years were good but not remarkably better than anything Manning has done.

I"m sure there are arguments for both sides, I just don't understand what your problem is. Is it that I don't like Rivers? Are you one of those weird Charger fans that defends him as a person like he's your dad?
Your whole argument is useless, since maybe you heard of it, football is a TEAMS sport. so no, Manning didnt win the SB. The Giants did.

scottyboy
09-30-2009, 10:29 AM
Your whole argument is useless, since maybe you heard of it, football is a TEAMS sport. so no, Manning didnt win the SB. The Giants did.

Eli didn't win the Super Bowl? so he lost it? i'm clearly just ******* with you, and i'm not getting in this argument now, but your post is totez fail logic

MetSox17
09-30-2009, 10:31 AM
Eli didn't win the Super Bowl? so he lost it? i'm clearly just ******* with you, and i'm not getting in this argument now, but your post is totez fail logic

No, yours is illogical, not his. Just because he said Eli himself didn't win it, does not automatically equate that he lost it. Ever heard of a false dichotomy?

thule
09-30-2009, 10:32 AM
Clady vs. Roos is an interesting debate actually.

Left tackle Ryan Clady has not allowed a full sack in his career (19 games). According to Stats Inc., that's currently the longest streak in the NFL. The Broncos have allowed only three sacks this season and allowed a league-low 12 last year. By the way, Clady held Oakland's Richard Seymour and Cincinnati's Antwan Odom, the current league sack leader, without sacks so far this year.

scottyboy
09-30-2009, 10:34 AM
No, yours is illogical, not his. Just because he said Eli himself didn't win it, does not automatically equate that he lost it. Ever heard of a false dichotomy?

ever heard of i was clearly just ******* with a friend of mine?

it's word play. Eli did in fact win the Super Bowl. Did he single-handedly carry the team on his back? no.
Did he have a Super Bowl winning drive within the last 2 minutes to win the Super Bowl? yes.
Is his record 1-0 in Super Bowls? yes.
so Eli Manning, did in fact, win the Super Bowl.

MetSox17
09-30-2009, 10:36 AM
ever heard of i was clearly just ******* with a friend of mine?

it's word play. Eli did in fact win the Super Bowl. Did he single-handedly carry the team on his back? no.
Did he have a Super Bowl winning drive within the last 2 minutes to win the Super Bowl? yes.
Is his record 1-0 in Super Bowls? yes.
so Eli Manning, did in fact, win the Super Bowl.

Well, if you haven't noticed, interweb sarcasm is kind of hard to detect. We need some sarcasm font up in here.

Either way, you pointed out that his logic had failed, when clearly, yours had, not his.

scottyboy
09-30-2009, 10:38 AM
Well, if you haven't noticed, interweb sarcasm is kind of hard to detect. We need some sarcasm font up in here.

Either way, you pointed out that his logic had failed, when clearly, yours had, not his.

I'm pretty sure the only logic I posted was in the 2nd post, which clearly had not failed.
And GOW knew it was sarcasm, which is all that matters since it was clearly directed at him...

MetSox17
09-30-2009, 10:40 AM
I'm pretty sure the only logic I posted was in the 2nd post, which clearly had not failed.


Eli didn't win the Super Bowl? so he lost it?

That makes sense to you?

scottyboy
09-30-2009, 10:43 AM
That makes sense to you?

did we not just address the sarcasm in the last post? how it was sarcasm thrown at GOW?
alzheimers?

MetSox17
09-30-2009, 10:46 AM
did we not just address the sarcasm in the last post? how it was sarcasm thrown at GOW?
alzheimers?

Yes, i realize that.

I'm pretty sure the only logic I posted was in the 2nd post, which clearly had not failed.
So which post are you referring to that made sense cause i've yet to see one.

killxswitch
09-30-2009, 11:51 AM
No it's a reasonable debate for sure. Your first post was a little back and forth and probably deserved an implied facepalm. Your facts are wrong btw, and not just a little wrong. I'll bust out the diatribe later but #1 would probably be the fact that Rivers' most crucial game was in fact the AFC championship game that you say he's never been to. You know, when he played on a torn ACL and almost knocked off the 17-0 Pats. Oops, right?

and yah he's my dad.

I don't see how anyone can discount a SB win (which no he didn't win it himself but he played as important a role in it as anyone) as a piece of evidence in Manning's favor. But as I tried to communicate in my "back and forth" post, it seems like a pretty close race. I personally like Manning but statistically speaking I think it could go either way, and I just wanted to introduce the discussion. Apparently I was not clear with my intentions.

But I definitely put my foot in my mouth pretty bad with the AFCCG comment, that was stupid.

awfullyquiet
09-30-2009, 12:00 PM
No, yours is illogical, not his. Just because he said Eli himself didn't win it, does not automatically equate that he lost it. Ever heard of a false dichotomy?

Exactly.

I encourage you all to remove the catch by David Tyree from the history of existence.

Do the Giants win the Superbowl? Probably not. (Argue that? I'm not saying its a foregone conclusions, considering it was only 3rd and 5. not 4th and 5 and thus a TOD.)

Are we having this conversation then right now? Or is this all a tree falling in a forest that no one hears.

I think it's the latter. If Tyree didn't stick that ball to his head. Rivers would be better in 95% of non-homers.

P-L
09-30-2009, 12:23 PM
I'll take Philip Rivers over Eli Manning every day of the week and twice on Sundays.

Rosebud
09-30-2009, 12:41 PM
They're different QBs who fill different roles, eli just manages the team until we need quick drives and then takes over, Rivers has the offense built around his arm so he needs to carry the team full time. I prefer Eli but that's because I'm a giants fan and have watched him carry our team when he's had to and like having a balanced offense. That and Rivers has always had significantly better offensive talent around him as well as the far superior OC.

killxswitch
09-30-2009, 12:49 PM
They're different QBs who fill different roles, eli just manages the team until we need quick drives and then takes over, Rivers has the offense built around his arm so he needs to carry the team full time. I prefer Eli but that's because I'm a giants fan and have watched him carry our team when he's had to and like having a balanced offense. That and Rivers has always had significantly better offensive talent around him as well as the far superior OC.

I agree the SD offense is obviously now built around Rivers, not Tomlinson. However, is SD a better team because of it? Talent-wise wasn't SD's best year 2006?

awfullyquiet
09-30-2009, 12:59 PM
They're different QBs who fill different roles, eli just manages the team until we need quick drives and then takes over, Rivers has the offense built around his arm so he needs to carry the team full time. I prefer Eli but that's because I'm a giants fan and have watched him carry our team when he's had to and like having a balanced offense. That and Rivers has always had significantly better offensive talent around him as well as the far superior OC.

And thus, your biased, and thus, you can't think objectively over this situation, and thus, 'wah wah wah wah, i can make excuse all day onto why i think that eli > rivers,' but, you sir, not a damn one of them makes a difference.

Giantsfan1080
09-30-2009, 01:10 PM
It's one of those rare times in sports where it's a win/win/win. Chargers fans love Rivers, Giants fans love Eli, and Steelers fans love Big Ben. No one wants to give them up for one of the others and we are all perfectly happy with what we've got. Leave it at that.

Hurricanes25
09-30-2009, 01:14 PM
It's one of those rare times in sports where it's a win/win/win. Chargers fans love Rivers, Giants fans love Eli, and Steelers fans love Big Ben. No one wants to give them up for one of the others and we are all perfectly happy with what we've got. Leave it at that.

Only if J.P Losman would have worked out for the Bills.;) It's very rare that a draft produces 3 good/great QB's. Eli has a ring, Big Ben has 2 and Rivers should probabaly have 1. Your right, all 3 teams are happy with their QB.

awfullyquiet
09-30-2009, 01:28 PM
It's one of those rare times in sports where it's a win/win/win. Chargers fans love Rivers, Giants fans love Eli, and Steelers fans love Big Ben. No one wants to give them up for one of the others and we are all perfectly happy with what we've got. Leave it at that.

Why?

Just because you're happy means all are equal and rainbows and sunshine for everyone?

**** no.

Giantsfan1080
09-30-2009, 01:38 PM
Why?

Just because you're happy means all are equal and rainbows and sunshine for everyone?

**** no.

You're a Bears fan. Giants, Steelers, and Chargers fans couldn't give one s*** of who you think should be their QB. I personally don't think Rivers would have been able to handle the NY media like Eli has so even if Rivers is a bigger talent he may not have performed here like he has in SD.

awfullyquiet
09-30-2009, 01:58 PM
You're a Bears fan. Giants, Steelers, and Chargers fans couldn't give one s*** of who you think should be their QB. I personally don't think Rivers would have been able to handle the NY media like Eli has so even if Rivers is a bigger talent he may not have performed here like he has in SD.

I'm not telling you what quarterback should be starting your team. For ***** sake, i don't even care who starts on your team, as long as my team wins. But when we're talking OBJECTIVELY about football performance, and who's better than who:

I'm telling you, Rivers > Eli. and that's that.

I don't ******* care about your 'pressure' and 'media'. I only care about those two peoples ability to play quarterback.

Rivers is better today, was better last year, and will probably be better next year, than eli manning.

Giantsfan1080
09-30-2009, 02:13 PM
I'm not telling you what quarterback should be starting your team.

I'm telling you, Rivers > Eli. and that's that.

I don't ******* care about your 'pressure' and 'media'. I only care about those two peoples ability to play quarterback.

Rivers is better today, was better last year, and will probably be better next year, than eli manning.

The ability to play QB can be affected by the media. Also, it's early but right now Eli is having the better year. Last year Rivers was better. As for the future we'll see. Evryone likes to mention how much talent Eli has around him yet Rivers has just as much if not more. Also Rivers plays in a much easier division. Since 2006 since Rivers became the full time starters they have pretty much the same record.

Gay Ork Wang
09-30-2009, 02:30 PM
ever heard of i was clearly just ******* with a friend of mine?

Who is your friend?

P-L
09-30-2009, 02:34 PM
The ability to play QB can be affected by the media. Also, it's early but right now Eli is having the better year. Last year Rivers was better. As for the future we'll see. Evryone likes to mention how much talent Eli has around him yet Rivers has just as much if not more. Also Rivers plays in a much easier division. Since 2006 since Rivers became the full time starters they have pretty much the same record.
To be fair, the Giants had/have a better defense.

awfullyquiet
09-30-2009, 02:34 PM
The ability to play QB can be affected by the media. Also, it's early but right now Eli is having the better year. Last year Rivers was better. As for the future we'll see. Evryone likes to mention how much talent Eli has around him yet Rivers has just as much if not more. Also Rivers plays in a much easier division. Since 2006 since Rivers became the full time starters they have pretty much the same record.

Do you watch Phillip Rivers play? or do you just look at his stat line. Jeez.

Giantsfan1080
09-30-2009, 02:39 PM
Do you watch Phillip Rivers play? or do you just look at his stat line. Jeez.

Do you watch Eli play or do you just look at his stat line. Jeez. You can use that crappy argument for anyone. By the way aren't you the one who loves to use stats? Weird.

Wootylicous
09-30-2009, 02:39 PM
Obviously everyone who choose Rivers over Eli is just a giants hater.

right ?

Giantsfan1080
09-30-2009, 02:46 PM
To be fair, the Giants had/have a better defense.

Not really.

Pts/G for both teams the last 3 years. In parentheses is what they ranked in that stat in the NFL.

2008- NYG 18.4(5) SD 21.7(15)
2007- NYG 21.9(17) SD 17.8(5)
2006- NYG 22.6(24) SD 18.9(7)

Giantsfan1080
09-30-2009, 02:47 PM
Obviously everyone who choose Rivers over Eli is just a giants hater.

right ?

No absolutely not. I think Rivers is a little better but it's not by the margin that everyone makes it to be.

P-L
09-30-2009, 02:50 PM
You have to take those ranks into perspective. Like you've already brought up, San Diego plays in the AFC West and New York plays in the NFC East. San Diego's defense got to play against the inept Raiders and Chiefs offenses four times per year while the Giants had to deal with the Dallas and Philadelphia offenses. San Diego might have had the better defense in 2006, but the Giants defense was much better in 2007 despite giving up more points per game.

CC.SD
09-30-2009, 02:51 PM
Happy to let AQ pinch hit for me, but I really have to say the argument that the media would have affected Rivers more is ridic.

Giantsfan1080
09-30-2009, 02:53 PM
You have to take those ranks into perspective. Like you've already brought up, San Diego plays in the AFC West and New York plays in the NFC East. San Diego's defense got to play against the inept Raiders and Chiefs offenses four times per year while the Giants had to deal with the Dallas and Philadelphia offenses. San Diego might have had the better defense in 2006, but the Giants defense was much better in 2007 despite giving up more points per game.

That's fine and I figured that would be your argument back. The Giants defense wasn't that good untill about the 2nd half of 2007. Anyway let's just call it a wash then. You have to give more credit to Eli then if he's playing in a harder division.

no bare feet
09-30-2009, 02:53 PM
Clady vs. Roos is an interesting debate actually.

Left tackle Ryan Clady has not allowed a full sack in his career (19 games). According to Stats Inc., that's currently the longest streak in the NFL. The Broncos have allowed only three sacks this season and allowed a league-low 12 last year. By the way, Clady held Oakland's Richard Seymour and Cincinnati's Antwan Odom, the current league sack leader, without sacks so far this year.


I'm a huge Clady fan. That is a good argument though.

Giantsfan1080
09-30-2009, 02:55 PM
Happy to let AQ pinch hit for me, but I really have to say the argument that the media would have affected Rivers more is ridic.

It's not really an argument just something that would have had been interesting if he was here. He's a bit of a hot head, which is fine, but members of the NY media would be on him for that and you never know what how that would translate onto the field. Like I said before Giants fans are happy with who they have and you guys are happy with Rivers. I'd like to keep going back and forth with everyone but I do have to go to work now.

Dam8610
09-30-2009, 02:58 PM
It has been about five years since the classic Umenyiora vs. Peppers debate. This should be fun. First off:

John Abraham is the better and more productive player than Dwight Freeney

Reason: When Freeney first came into the league he was nigh unstoppable, especially in that track meet they call a stadium. However, as he has aged he has been getting hurt a lot, lost a step, and hasn't been the force he used to be. Not to mention teams take advantage of him in the running/screen game and it has hurt the Colts in big time games (see Darren Sproles).

John Abraham has been consistently great his entire career and has seen no drop-off. If anything he looks better and more balanced as a player in recent years.

Either comment on this one or add your own.

Abraham more productive than Freeney? I guess maybe if you look at solely stat sheet from last season, since current stat sheets don't have numbers for things like double teams and pressures. As for injuries, Abraham has had more injuries and missed more time than Freeney. So I'd like to know in what way exactly John Abraham is better than Dwight Freeney.

awfullyquiet
09-30-2009, 03:02 PM
Do you watch Eli play or do you just look at his stat line. Jeez. You can use that crappy argument for anyone. By the way aren't you the one who loves to use stats? Weird.

Correct. I use stats to back up what I see. It all starts with visual analysis. Visual analysis tells me that Rivers is the better quarterback... and now onto woot for part 2.

Obviously everyone who choose Rivers over Eli is just a giants hater.

right ?

Correct. I'm a big ******* giants hater. and i LOVEEEM cowboys. and Iggles. And Skins. Heck, i love all the NFC east, except for the giants.

Man, i'm pathetic!

scottyboy
09-30-2009, 03:20 PM
Who is your friend?

ooh how i hate you!

geez, look what my little joke turned into.

Mike Teel> Rivers+Eli+Big Ben

better?

DiG
09-30-2009, 03:29 PM
fun game.

aaron rodgers is the better and more productive player than tony romo.

also

london fletcher baker is the better and more productive player than ray lewis right now...whaaaaa...did he say that!

Shiver
09-30-2009, 04:36 PM
There are a lot of people better and more productive than Tony Romo. I would put him behind P. Manning, Brees, Brady, Rodgers, Rivers, Roethlisberger, Manning; and pretty soon Matt Ryan and Joe Flacco will pass him.

CC.SD
09-30-2009, 08:14 PM
fun game.

aaron rodgers is the better and more productive player than tony romo.

also

london fletcher baker is the better and more productive player than ray lewis right now...whaaaaa...did he say that!

Hey you, where the hell is Laron Landry?

Eric Weddle is a better and more productive player than Laron Landry...in space. But seriously he was one of my all time favorite prospects, I want to know what's up.

SenorGato
09-30-2009, 11:38 PM
Andre Johnson isn't better than Larry Fitzgerald.

For my money, Calvin Johnson>Andre Johnson.

Actually, I think all things equal, Calvin would outperform any other WR.

So Tron>all.

I know, but AJ is just starting to get his due. Guys been a beast since Miami, but the Texans have been him and nothing for years.

Rosebud
10-01-2009, 12:42 AM
And thus, your biased, and thus, you can't think objectively over this situation, and thus, 'wah wah wah wah, i can make excuse all day onto why i think that eli > rivers,' but, you sir, not a damn one of them makes a difference.

I never deny being biased, does that somehow make what I see on the field a hallucination? I'm not a blatant homer, except for where the Mighty Midget is involved <3, so it's not like my being a giants fan makes me automatically wrong on all issues Giants. I'm not going to say Eli > Rivers, I just think that the difference isn't massive. You have to respect Rivers for carrying his team like he's asked to, but I think Eli's also a top QB at carrying his team when he has to.

To be fair, the Giants had/have a better defense.

At times, at times the chargers have had the better D, I won't argue this one because I do like our D and have liked it more over the past season and a half but that's not to say that San Diego's D has been a significant hindrance outside of last season's Merriman-less fiasco. You have a valid point, but again I don't feel it's a major imbalance.

CC.SD
10-01-2009, 12:46 AM
I never deny being biased, does that somehow make what I see on the field a hallucination? I'm not a blatant homer, except for where the Mighty Midget is involved <3, so it's not like my being a giants fan makes me automatically wrong on all issues Giants. I'm not going to say Eli > Rivers, I just think that the difference isn't massive. You have to respect Rivers for carrying his team like he's asked to, but I think Eli's also a top QB at carrying his team when he has to.



At times, at times the chargers have had the better D, I won't argue this one because I do like our D and have liked it more over the past season and a half but that's not to say that San Diego's D has been a significant hindrance outside of last season's Merriman-less fiasco. You have a valid point, but again I don't feel it's a major imbalance.

I don't know man our D has been pretty terrible for a while. Even in 2007 we got dominated in most categories, but luckily had Cromartie on hand to conjure up interceptions every game. I don't think there's much comparison when you look at the Giants D.

Horrendous D is the reason Rivers has had to turn into a mad bomber.

Rosebud
10-01-2009, 12:52 AM
I don't know man our D has been pretty terrible for a while. Even in 2007 we got dominated in most categories, but luckily had Cromartie on hand to conjure up interceptions every game. I don't think there's much comparison when you look at the Giants D.

Horrendous D is the reason Rivers has had to turn into a mad bomber.

I would say the same of our D before Webster became the baby jesus at corner and our playoff run. You guys were dominant when Rivers got the start, back when MErriman was goin apeshit, you guys had the best 3-4 DL and Phillips was just breaking out. Granted your D has taken some significant steps back the past two years and that has changed what rivers has had to overcome, but that's something eli had to do the first 3 and a half seasons of his career.

CC.SD
10-01-2009, 12:53 AM
I would say the same of our D before Webster became the baby jesus at corner and our playoff run. You guys were dominant when Rivers got the start, back when MErriman was goin apeshit, you guys had the best 3-4 DL and Phillips was just breaking out. Granted your D has taken some significant steps back the past two years and that has changed what rivers has had to overcome, but that's something eli had to do the first 3 and a half seasons of his career.

Well Rivers has only been starting from 06 til now, and you're describing the 06 D which was pretty darn good. All downhill since that year though, and way downhill.

Rosebud
10-01-2009, 01:02 AM
Well Rivers has only been starting from 06 til now, and you're describing the 06 D which was pretty darn good. All downhill since that year though, and way downhill.

Wasn't what I was arguing just saying Rivers had a great D one year, a weaker one the next year, a ****** one last year and we have yet to see how this season is going to unfold. Eli on the other hand had a ****** D 3 years, then a great D for a playoff run, a good D last year, although it wasn't even close to the same as that playoff D and now we have this year. so both guys have had a strong D to rely on at times and at others have had to overcome a piss poor D. Again Rivers deserves to be ranked a little above Eli at the moment but both are QBs in the tier below Peyton, Brady and BRees.

CC.SD
10-01-2009, 01:07 AM
Wasn't what I was arguing just saying Rivers had a great D one year, a weaker one the next year, a ****** one last year and we have yet to see how this season is going to unfold. Eli on the other hand had a ****** D 3 years, then a great D for a playoff run, a good D last year, although it wasn't even close to the same as that playoff D and now we have this year. so both guys have had a strong D to rely on at times and at others have had to overcome a piss poor D. Again Rivers deserves to be ranked a little above Eli at the moment but both are QBs in the tier below Peyton, Brady and BRees.

Okey dokey

sweetness34
10-01-2009, 01:09 AM
No absolutely not. I think Rivers is a little better but it's not by the margin that everyone makes it to be.

Oh yes he is. I probably underrate Eli a bit just because I flat out don't like the guy (which is funny because I don't like River either), but Rivers is hands down a better QB than Eli is.

I'll keep repeating it because this topic keeps coming back up; Eli is your franchise QB, he is not a franchise QB by definition. Rivers is a franchise QB in every sense of the word. As individual players it really isn't close at all.

brat316
10-01-2009, 01:48 AM
It should go

Rivers
Roethlis
E. Mann

Bengalsrocket
10-01-2009, 02:09 AM
It shame people still look at Eli like he's the same guy back before those '07 play off games. He's really come into his own and performed on an elite level. He has good fundamentals, can make any throw, he's accurate, he's clutch and like you would expect from a franchise QB he is the leader of that offense now.

I think this generation of football fans is really starting to become a little spoiled when it comes to the expectations of a quarterback. I believe that starts with Peyton Manning and Tom Brady, but who knows really.

I mean, are people aware that even Brett Favre has never thrown for over 40 TDs? His highest single season TD number is 39. Here is a couple of other guys that are part of today's pass happy offenses but have never thrown for over 40 TDs: Drew Brees (34), Phillip Rivers (34), Tony Romo (36), Carson Palmer (32), Daunte Culpepper (39), Jay Cutler (25), McNair (24), McNabb (31), Roethlisberger (32), Marc Bulger (24), Trent Green (27).

I'm aware that a few of those guys are extremely young still and have plenty of time to eclipse the 40 TD mark, but I also added some guys who have already retired as well.

And as far as I'm aware, the only guys to eclipse 40 TD's in the history of the NFL are Kurt Warner, Dan Marino, Peyton Manning & Tom Brady. Which brings me back to my original point, in saying that Peyton Manning and Tom Brady both did it very recently, which I think has spoiled us a little bit.

Now, I'm also aware that it's not just TDs that make people non-believers when it comes to Eli Manning. However, there just isn't much else to hate about his game since that '07 Superbowl run. He helps the giants win games, and while a lot of people don't seem to want to admit it; he is a big part of the winning formula in New York. Maybe he doesn't have the gaudy statistics that his brother has, but I suspect he never will. In fact, I suspect very few people in the game (past, present and future) ever will.

Eli is a franchise QB, maybe he's not the best franchise QB and maybe he's not what you want in your franchise QB, but he's still a franchise QB.

brat316
10-01-2009, 02:27 AM
Oh we have been very spoiled this decade with Qbs. We expect every qb that comes out of the draft to be a superstar in 2 years. Have games score a ridicules number of points, and qbs have amazing fantasy value(stats).

With recent great rookie plays of Ben, Joe, Matt. We want to see rookie qbs break out. We set the bar to high, after seeing these three have great runs.

And then we have the vets play of Manning, Brady, Warner, Brees who pass on almost every down. With these guys its becomes a pass happy league.

Its bound to happen we get spoiled with great qb play. Years before they had great rbs that we didn't get to see.


Whats going to be the next break out position, 3-4 Olb, since half of the league is running it.

Bengalsrocket
10-01-2009, 02:37 AM
Yah, I mean our historical 3-4 OLB is L.T. and the current wave's strongest candidates for "super stardom" are Merriman and Ware obviously.

Another position that could be highlighted soon is interior DLine for 4-3. The Williams' in Minnesota have been a good introduction for our generation, followed by Haynesworth and a few others I'm sure I'm forgetting at the moment. Not to mention some good draft prospects in recent years.

BlindSite
10-01-2009, 02:57 AM
Interior line for the 43 for sure. Fat Albert, Rod Coleman a few years ago in Atlanta, the money given to Canty, money given to kemoeatu, Haloti Ngata in Baltimore, the list goes on and on of guys who've been HUGE for their respective teams but don't get the credit they deserve.

awfullyquiet
10-01-2009, 08:57 AM
but I think Eli's also a top QB at carrying his team when he has to.

Do they not let him carry the team all the time because he can't or because they don't want to?


At times, at times the chargers have had the better D, I won't argue this one because I do like our D and have liked it more over the past season and a half but that's not to say that San Diego's D has been a significant hindrance outside of last season's Merriman-less fiasco. You have a valid point, but again I don't feel it's a major imbalance.

And this one goes out to GF1080 for making fun of me for using stats.


Pts/G for both teams the last 3 years. In parentheses is what they ranked in that stat in the NFL.

2008- NYG 18.4(5) SD 21.7(15)
2007- NYG 21.9(17) SD 17.8(5)
2006- NYG 22.6(24) SD 18.9(7)

Man, using stats to say one team was better than the other without regards to how they play on the field... man, do you just look at the stat lines or actually watch the teams?

Lastly

It shame people still look at Eli like he's the same guy back before those '07 play off games. He's really come into his own and performed on an elite level. He has good fundamentals, can make any throw, he's accurate, he's clutch and like you would expect from a franchise QB he is the leader of that offense now.

That deserves a big. ORLY? Prove that he's accurate, last year wasn't a fluke.
Because I haven't seen it. Its tough saying this for the next 3 weeks because the giants play: Oakland (the only possible problem), KC, NO. Three unfortunate Defensive cupcakes.

On the other hand, i'd like to see Manning outpass Brees. Probably won't happen, if Brees overpowers the Giants (possible), but it'd provide a nice visual to watch him try franticly to catch up in the fourth quarter, fail until 2 minutes left, drive down the field and then come within 7 for the loss. Man, that's what you get for being so good in the 2 minute drill.

Giantsfan1080
10-01-2009, 11:27 AM
I never made fun of you for using stats AQ. I have said before you can't use them like you do in baseball but there is still a basis for them in the NFL. You also can't look at them in a vacuum though. As regards to the defenses it's been pretty similar over the 3 year period Rivers has started. As Rosebud said our didn't defense was very up and down in 2007 and didn't really hit it's stride untill last year.

awfullyquiet
10-01-2009, 12:05 PM
I never made fun of you for using stats AQ. I have said before you can't use them like you do in baseball but there is still a basis for them in the NFL. You also can't look at them in a vacuum though.

Who would do that? Seriously? Look at stats in a vacuum? Me? Really?

You're making the assumption that: i don't watch as much football as you do, i don't know what to look for when players do something, that i'm just generally not very adept at watching football, and therefore, an unreliable on what's actually happening, so much so, that i have to use stats as the basis of my arguments?

Really, even without stats, I think many of the things I say, others would be able to visually verify even without statistics. Like that San Diego's defense was better than NY's. Now NY's defense is generally better (this year, it's a slight edge to NY imo).

Giantsfan1080
10-01-2009, 01:32 PM
Who would do that? Seriously? Look at stats in a vacuum? Me? Really?

You're making the assumption that: i don't watch as much football as you do, i don't know what to look for when players do something, that i'm just generally not very adept at watching football, and therefore, an unreliable on what's actually happening, so much so, that i have to use stats as the basis of my arguments?

Really, even without stats, I think many of the things I say, others would be able to visually verify even without statistics. Like that San Diego's defense was better than NY's. Now NY's defense is generally better (this year, it's a slight edge to NY imo).

No, I assume none of these things. You just keep making stuff up at this point. I never disagreed with you because you used stats to back up your point. I try to do the same when making an argument here. Some numbers I like better than others just like you. I've never insulted your football intelligence even though we disagree on this issue so don't make that the case.

awfullyquiet
10-01-2009, 02:34 PM
Hey. You made the inference that I used stats in a vacuum by bringing up that comment.

You also can't look at them in a vacuum though.

I'm just had to assume that, since 'don't you love stats?' came before 'you cant look at them in a vacuum though.' that you were referring to my usage of stats as being bogus and 'in a vacuum' without paying attention to the game.

Honest mistake, i suppose.

Giantsfan1080
10-01-2009, 03:21 PM
Hey. You made the inference that I used stats in a vacuum by bringing up that comment.



I'm just had to assume that, since 'don't you love stats?' came before 'you cant look at them in a vacuum though.' that you were referring to my usage of stats as being bogus and 'in a vacuum' without paying attention to the game.

Honest mistake, i suppose.

It was more of a general statement I wasn't aiming it at you. That other comment was because when I brought up some stats you made fun of me for it haha. I think you were confusing with me someone else perhaps.

Rosebud
10-01-2009, 03:27 PM
Do they not let him carry the team all the time because he can't or because they don't want to?

No we don't let him carry the team because we are a run first team who's offense is predicated on controlling the clock by stringing together long, time consuming drives that let our D rest and put pressure on the other team to make something happen. But when we need a quick score we let eli take over and he usually does a great job.


And this one goes out to GF1080 for making fun of me for using stats.



Man, using stats to say one team was better than the other without regards to how they play on the field... man, do you just look at the stat lines or actually watch the teams?

Other than to make a snide remark at GF1080 was there any reason for your quoting me?

Lastly

That deserves a big. ORLY? Prove that he's accurate, last year wasn't a fluke.
Because I haven't seen it. Its tough saying this for the next 3 weeks because the giants play: Oakland (the only possible problem), KC, NO. Three unfortunate Defensive cupcakes.

lol, last year wasn't a fluke because not only had he been playing good accurate football for the playoff run before then, but he was doing it for a whole season and is continuing to do it. I guess when he's still doing it in two years you'll still be begging for proof that it all hasn't been one long fluke.

On the other hand, i'd like to see Manning outpass Brees. Probably won't happen, if Brees overpowers the Giants (possible), but it'd provide a nice visual to watch him try franticly to catch up in the fourth quarter, fail until 2 minutes left, drive down the field and then come within 7 for the loss. Man, that's what you get for being so good in the 2 minute drill.

While Eli's certainly a great 2 minute drill QB, you're missing my point that he steps up when our offense needs him to, ergo if we are down by more than 7 we'll need him to step up before the 2 minute warning.

Responses in bold.

awfullyquiet
10-01-2009, 03:50 PM
No we don't let him carry the team because we are a run first team who's offense is predicated on controlling the clock by stringing together long, time consuming drives that let our D rest and put pressure on the other team to make something happen. But when we need a quick score we let eli take over and he usually does a great job.

You think SD is a slob with running the football so they resort to passing? Last time I checked they had some guy name LT on there who was pretty good at running, and pretty elusive.

lol, last year wasn't a fluke because not only had he been playing good accurate football for the playoff run before then, but he was doing it for a whole season and is continuing to do it. I guess when he's still doing it in two years you'll still be begging for proof that it all hasn't been one long fluke.

oh yeah. i'm totally waiting for it. one season is not proof that someone is good...

lets determine accurate... 55% in the superbowl in 2007. awesome (19/34 attempts). 21 for 40 in the NFCC. that's 51%. he was much better in games where he doesn't throw much. i.e. the 12/18 game in the divisional game. That's a funny stat. I wonder why? it's because when he's exposed too much he'll make worse plays?

While Eli's certainly a great 2 minute drill QB, you're missing my point that he steps up when our offense needs him to, ergo if we are down by more than 7 we'll need him to step up before the 2 minute warning.

Are you sure? I mean, 'all i know is, he's really good in the 2 minute drill'. is he good in both the 4th quarter and the 2 minute drill or just the 2 minute drill? I think people get confused by it, and i'm not missing your point, i'm just saying, he's known for those dramatic 2 minute drives, that could have been avoided if he executed in the 4th quarter. He doesn't. That's where I have concerns, the defense comes up big, he gets the ball back, and then executes on try 2. Why can't he execute on try 1?

Giantsfan1080
10-01-2009, 04:12 PM
A lot of the games including the 2006 playoff game against the Eagles it's more like Eli gets the score then the defense promptly lets the Eagles come right back down the field for a game winning FG.

Rosebud
10-01-2009, 04:15 PM
You think SD is a slob with running the football so they resort to passing? Last time I checked they had some guy name LT on there who was pretty good at running, and pretty elusive.

THe Chargers have been a passing team for the past two years, the giants on the otherhand lead the league in rushing attempts, not saying that the chargers are suddenly a mike martz team but they're not nearly as dedicated to the run as we are.

oh yeah. i'm totally waiting for it. one season is not proof that someone is good...

lets determine accurate... 55% in the superbowl in 2007. awesome (19/34 attempts). 21 for 40 in the NFCC. that's 51%. he was much better in games where he doesn't throw much. i.e. the 12/18 game in the divisional game. That's a funny stat. I wonder why? it's because when he's exposed too much he'll make worse plays?

And he's able to string together successful drives when we rely on his arm.

Are you sure? I mean, 'all i know is, he's really good in the 2 minute drill'. is he good in both the 4th quarter and the 2 minute drill or just the 2 minute drill? I think people get confused by it, and i'm not missing your point, i'm just saying, he's known for those dramatic 2 minute drives, that could have been avoided if he executed in the 4th quarter. He doesn't. That's where I have concerns, the defense comes up big, he gets the ball back, and then executes on try 2. Why can't he execute on try 1?

He's a good 4th quarter QB, just last season he had a 63.6% completion percentage in the 4th with a QB rating of 93.8 and 5 TDs to 2 INTs. So he does execute in the 4th quarter and I even the stats support it.

Responses in bold.

SenorGato
10-01-2009, 06:19 PM
I don't think just interior 4-3 lineman...I think big, athletic, versatile linemen are the big thing.

Started with Seymour in '01. He played in BB's 3-4 as a DE, NT, 4-3 DE, 4-3 NT, and 4-3 UT. Other guys like Haynesworth, Henderson, Kevin Williams, Stroud, Ngata, Warren, and Castillo have this kind of athleticism, size, length, and power. It's a reason I'm so high on Arthur Jones and Vince Oghobaase in the 2010 draft...size, speed, intelligence, versatility, and power all at high levels.

Then there's guys like Tuck, Williams, Peppers, Ware, Merriman, and whoever else that are freak athletes and more pass rusher-y than those other guys. They also are big, fast, versatile, intelligent, and powerful.

F'n...freaks.

bigbluedefense
10-01-2009, 06:35 PM
Im staying out of the Eli argument bc honestly, its just stupid.

But I will say this.

Tomlinson hasn't been "LT" for the past 2 years. Their run game is not what it used to be. They live with the deep ball these days.

And rightfully so. They have 6 5" Vincent Jackson, 6 7" Antonio Gates, 6 3" Cris Chambers, etc.

They have a bunch of mountains at WR. Just send em deep and play jumpball. Thats what they do, and it works.

And in case all of them are covered, check down to Sproles and watch him rack up the YAC underneath with all that unoccupied space.

Sproles has been the best back in SD for the past 2 years. LT is washed up. Nobody wants to admit it, but just watch him play. He's clearly not the same player anymore. Hasn't been for 2 years.

Theres a reason why AJ considered trading him this offseason, tried trading for Michael Bush, franchised Sproles, and drafted a RB in the 4th round (thanks for that gift btw AJ).

LT is done.

MetSox17
10-01-2009, 06:55 PM
.

And rightfully so. They have 6 5" Vincent Jackson, 6 7" Antonio Gates, 6 3" Cris Chambers, etc.



Not very important, but if Chris Chambers is 6'3, i'm 7 feet. He's more around 5'11ish

Giantsfan1080
10-01-2009, 07:00 PM
I was under the impression Chambers is small but he just has a crazy vertical jump which makes you think he's taller.

CC.SD
10-01-2009, 07:01 PM
Im staying out of the Eli argument bc honestly, its just stupid.

But I will say this.

Tomlinson hasn't been "LT" for the past 2 years. Their run game is not what it used to be. They live with the deep ball these days.

And rightfully so. They have 6 5" Vincent Jackson, 6 7" Antonio Gates, 6 3" Cris Chambers, etc.

They have a bunch of mountains at WR. Just send em deep and play jumpball. Thats what they do, and it works.

And in case all of them are covered, check down to Sproles and watch him rack up the YAC underneath with all that unoccupied space.

Sproles has been the best back in SD for the past 2 years. LT is washed up. Nobody wants to admit it, but just watch him play. He's clearly not the same player anymore. Hasn't been for 2 years.

Theres a reason why AJ considered trading him this offseason, tried trading for Michael Bush, franchised Sproles, and drafted a RB in the 4th round (thanks for that gift btw AJ).

LT is done.


The Eli argument is played out, but nix on LT being done. Injured maybe, and age is a factor there, but healthy he can still produce, and we'll see it this year. Maybe not against the Steelers this week, because it's the Steelers, but reserve judgment until this year really kicks in. I feel bad saying that even, and for the most part it's because our O-lineman don't even try to run block. Scrubs at C, RG, RT, and so far Dielman and McNeill on the left side aren't playing up to their pro bowl status. Anyone would struggle to produce behind that gob.

bigbluedefense
10-01-2009, 07:48 PM
Wow, you guys are right. For some reason I always thought Chambers was bigger than that. My bad. He plays pretty big for his size though.

LT just looks timid to me. He hates contact, and he's not elusive enough anymore to make his style work. I loved him in his prime, but to me he just doesn't have it anymore.

The biggest issue with SD's run blocking isn't the line imo, its the lack of a true FB which really goes a long way with that offensive system, and having Gates doesn't help seal the edge either.

CC.SD
10-01-2009, 09:54 PM
Wow, you guys are right. For some reason I always thought Chambers was bigger than that. My bad. He plays pretty big for his size though.

LT just looks timid to me. He hates contact, and he's not elusive enough anymore to make his style work. I loved him in his prime, but to me he just doesn't have it anymore.

The biggest issue with SD's run blocking isn't the line imo, its the lack of a true FB which really goes a long way with that offensive system, and having Gates doesn't help seal the edge either.

Eh we haven't seen him play uninjured in a while, so that's an understandable view point. Trust me the O-line is a bigger factor than the fullback, although that's in the mix too. There's just no push, no explosion, from the guys up front.

Giantsfan1080
10-01-2009, 09:56 PM
This is totally out of curiosity but how did the SD line do last year? I'm drawing a blank on what the consensus opinion was on them.

CC.SD
10-01-2009, 10:01 PM
This is totally out of curiosity but how did the SD line do last year? I'm drawing a blank on what the consensus opinion was on them.

Started out bad and turned mediocre. Mike Goff really fell off a cliff and Nick Hardwick, while an athletic and smart center, needs some extra size around him to be effective. McNeill battled a neck injury all year which slowed him an extra step sometimes, and Jeromey Clary was bad. The combo of RG and RT playing badly brought the whole unit down quite a bit. Dielman was a bad mofo.

They're all pretty swell at pass blocking though. Except Clary, who never met a speed rusher he didn't get abused by.

DeepThreat
10-01-2009, 10:06 PM
How about Deilman (sp?)?

CC.SD
10-01-2009, 10:10 PM
How about Deilman (sp?)?

He eats children. Absolutely filthy. He hasn't quite stood out so far this year but he'll get there.

Dielman is the spelling

Xenos
10-02-2009, 12:23 AM
Started out bad and turned mediocre. Mike Goff really fell off a cliff and Nick Hardwick, while an athletic and smart center, needs some extra size around him to be effective. McNeill battled a neck injury all year which slowed him an extra step sometimes, and Jeromey Clary was bad. The combo of RG and RT playing badly brought the whole unit down quite a bit. Dielman was a bad mofo.

They're all pretty swell at pass blocking though. Except Clary, who never met a speed rusher he didn't get abused by.
Clary was better than McNeill and Goff last year. And he's probably our best olineman this year considering that he's actually holding down his side pretty well.

No correction. He is our best olineman. Dielman has been absolutely disappointing this year.

Shiver
11-02-2009, 04:36 PM
Julius Peppers: 7 sacks in 8 games, 3 FF, 1 INT, 1 Touchdown
Osi Umenyiora: 4 sacks, 2 FF

Just 'sayin..

niel89
11-02-2009, 04:47 PM
Joe Flacco is better and more productive player than Matt Ryan. :p

The Unseen
11-02-2009, 04:48 PM
Given Sundays game, here's a debate for you:

Chris Johnson or Maurice Jones-Drew?

Go.

scottyboy
11-02-2009, 04:48 PM
Julius Peppers: 7 sacks in 8 games, 3 FF, 1 INT, 1 Touchdown
Osi Umenyiora: 4 sacks, 2 FF

Just 'sayin..

Osi's also coming off a season ending injury...

argument fail

and you also left our Osi's TD as well

scottyboy
11-02-2009, 04:49 PM
Given Sundays game, here's a debate for you:

Chris Johnson or Maurice Jones-Drew?

Go.

MJD, the juciness of his thighs remind me to that of Raymell Rice.
not quite as juicy, but pretty damn close

bigbuc
11-02-2009, 05:49 PM
It has been about five years since the classic Umenyiora vs. Peppers debate. This should be fun. First off:

John Abraham is the better and more productive player than Dwight Freeney

Reason: When Freeney first came into the league he was nigh unstoppable, especially in that track meet they call a stadium. However, as he has aged he has been getting hurt a lot, lost a step, and hasn't been the force he used to be. Not to mention teams take advantage of him in the running/screen game and it has hurt the Colts in big time games (see Darren Sproles).

John Abraham has been consistently great his entire career and has seen no drop-off. If anything he looks better and more balanced as a player in recent years.

Either comment on this one or add your own.

And your trying to say John Abraham never been hurt? The guy has missed around 20 to 25 games. Also now he only plays about 65% of the snaps a game so he doesn't get hurt. I get it, Abraham plays for your team. So you like him more.

Shiver
11-02-2009, 06:07 PM
Joe Flacco is better and more productive player than Matt Ryan. :p

Negative, sir.

Given Sundays game, here's a debate for you:

Chris Johnson or Maurice Jones-Drew?

Go.

That is the toughest one yet. If we had a draft I would take Chris Johnson, but it is really close.