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View Full Version : What is the legacy of Randy Moss?


djp
09-30-2009, 06:10 PM
Is he the best WR of all time?

Receptions 855
Receiving Yards 13,342
Receiving TDs 135

NFL records and statistics

Most receiving touchdowns as a rookie: 17
Third in receiving yards by a rookie, with 1,313 (trailing Anquan Boldin and Bill Groman)
Moss has caught 13 or more TDs in a season five times; only Terrell Owens and Jerry Rice have done so more often.
Moss has caught 17 or more TDs in a season three times; no other player has ever done so.
Moss has averaged at least one receiving TD per game played in four different seasons: 1998 (17 TDs in 16 games), 2003 (17 in 16), 2004 (13 in 13), and 2007 (23 in 16); no other player has ever done so.[39]
He had back-to-back 100 catch seasons, in 2002 and 2003. He, along with Wes Welker, Sterling Sharpe, Jerry Rice, Herman Moore, Cris Carter, Marvin Harrison, and Rod Smith are the only receivers to accomplish this feat.
At the end of the 2007 season, Moss averaged 12.4 receiving TDs per season, an NFL record.
He had 1,200+ yards receiving in each of his first 6 seasons, setting an NFL record.
In 2003, Moss became the second player in NFL history to average 100 yards and one TD per game in a 16 NFL game season, scoring 17 touchdowns and 1,632 yards.
In 2007, Moss became the only player in NFL history to record four 100+ yard games in his first four games with a new team.
Moss has eclipsed the 1,000 yard receiving mark 8 times in his career. He is tied for 3rd all-time in that statistic.
Also in 2007, Moss set a record with 16 touchdowns in his first 10 games with a new team.
On December 29, 2007, he set the NFL record for most touchdown receptions in a regular season, with 23. The record was previously held by Jerry Rice who scored 22 touchdowns in a 12 game strike season.
Career highlights

4-time All-Pro selection. [40]
NFL Record, 23 Receiving TD's in a season.(2007)
Only player in NFL history to record 1,200+ receiving yards in his first six seasons.
Youngest player in NFL history to record his 120th receiving touchdown. (30 years, 313 days)
Is second on the Minnesota Vikings all time receiving TD list with 90. Cris Carter holds the record with 110 receiving scores.
Caught his 100th touchdown pass in 2006 against San Francisco (on a pass he caught with his legs), and he is the 7th player to have 100+ touchdown receptions. He was the youngest to accomplish this at 29 years and 235 days.
Holds the record for most touchdowns in Minnesota Vikings playoff history with 8.
59 career 100 yard games - tied for 2nd all-time.
Has a 15.8 yards per catch average for his career.
Has completed 4 of 8 passes for 106 yards and 2 touchdowns, with 1 interception, giving him a 95.8 passer rating.
Only player to catch 90+ touchdown passes, return a punt for a touchdown, and throw 2 touchdown passes.
Has played on the two highest scoring teams (for a single season) in NFL history: 2007 Patriots (589 points) & the 1998 Vikings (556 points)
Had a career-high 12 receptions for 204 yards against the Chicago Bears, at Soldier Field, on November 14, 1999 in a 27-24 overtime win.
Holds the Viking record for most 100 yard receiving games with 41.
Had a Pro Bowl record nine receptions for 212 yards in the 1999 season's Pro Bowl played on February 6, 2000. NFC won in a shootout, 51-31, marking the highest scoring output in Pro Bowl History.
Caught a career high four touchdowns at Buffalo (all were in the first half). (Nov. 18, 2007)
Caught three touchdowns in six different games: at Dallas (Nov. 26, 1998), a 46–36 victory; vs. Chicago (Dec. 6, 1998), a 48–22 victory; at Detroit (Oct. 1, 2000), a 31-24 victory; vs. New York (November 19, 2001) a 28-16 victory; vs. San Francisco (Sep. 28, 2003), a 35–7 victory; vs. Buffalo (November 18, 2007), a 56–10 victory.

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wicket
09-30-2009, 06:14 PM
Is he the best WR of all time?

No, he is not. He is however (imo) the best receiver of his generation and possibly the most talented receiver of all time.
I can go into a whole oration about this but it pretty much sums it up.

roscoesdad27
09-30-2009, 06:19 PM
definitly the most talented w.r. ever (calvin johnson is VERY close)...if he was with brady or manning his entire career he would own every record.

bored of education
09-30-2009, 06:22 PM
One of the all time greatest talents. Thats where it ends for me.

Halsey
09-30-2009, 06:28 PM
When he's at the top of his game, nobody I have seen has ever been better. However, consistency matters and Rice was WAY WAY more consistent than Moss. Rice was also never a distraction and never dissapeared in big games like Moss has at times.

Saints-Tigers
09-30-2009, 06:40 PM
Second greatest receiver ever, best deep threat ever.

Might open up more for his teammates than any other receiver, being on the two highest scoring teams of all times does say something.

djp
09-30-2009, 06:53 PM
Here's my argument for Moss No. 1 all time.

A great receiver makes his team better. No receiver has done that more than Moss. Like Saints-Tigers said, being on the two highest scoring teams of all time does say something.

RAVENS/WIZARDS/ORIOLES
09-30-2009, 06:56 PM
What rank were the Raiders of all time when he was on that team????

Todd Bertuzzi
09-30-2009, 06:59 PM
What rank were the Raiders of all time when he was on that team????

Not even Randy Moss can save the Raiders.

djp
09-30-2009, 07:04 PM
Not even Randy Moss can save the Raiders.

Randy Moss makes team elite from good, not elite from bottom of the league terrible.

YAYareaRB
09-30-2009, 07:11 PM
I know no one really pays attention to his blocking but some people that talk about Rice is exactly that. He was a good blocker.

bored of education
09-30-2009, 07:12 PM
I hate Randy Moss personally but I will never annoint him number one. But dude is nice!

Hurricanes25
09-30-2009, 07:13 PM
One of the best ever but it's hard to take him over Jerry Rice.

Bengalsrocket
09-30-2009, 07:14 PM
I hate Randy Moss personally but I will never annoint him number one. But dude is nice!

where is the contrast here? lol

Splat
09-30-2009, 07:30 PM
Best ever? No One of the best ever? Yes

Like others have said maybe the mosted gifted WR ever but that doesn't make him the best ever Jerry Rice end of thread.

To me WR is the only position in the game that you can say 100% that one guy is for sure the best ever there is a debate and for good reason with the rest.

CC.SD
09-30-2009, 07:35 PM
I hate Randy Moss personally but I will never annoint him number one. But dude is nice!

lol you know BOE usually when you say 'but' you follow it up with something contrary to the first part of the statement.

DeepThreat
09-30-2009, 07:38 PM
BOE don't write so good.

YAYareaRB
09-30-2009, 07:39 PM
where is the contrast here? lol

I was thinking that same exact thing hahaha

bored of education
09-30-2009, 07:45 PM
hmm who hacked into my account

im gonna try to explain that but so get ready to laugh.
I hate Randy Moss personally(meaning i ******* hate the guy but i will never annoint him number one..ohh **** i ******* suck **** me **** stick but I will never annoint him number one. But dude is nice!
nevermind k guys?

YAYareaRB
09-30-2009, 07:48 PM
hmm who hacked into my account

im gonna try to explain that but so get ready to laugh.
I hate Randy Moss personally(meaning i ******* hate the guy but i will never annoint him number one..ohh **** i ******* suck **** me **** stick but I will never annoint him number one. But dude is nice!
nevermind k guys?

definitely nevermind definitely

bored of education
09-30-2009, 07:49 PM
yeah i must have type the wrong word maybe 'so' fits better than 'but'

tjsunstein
09-30-2009, 07:55 PM
1. Jerry Rice
2. Randy Moss

And it's debateable from there but you have to have these guys in this order to begin any credible list.

P-L
09-30-2009, 07:57 PM
I don't think he's better than Rice, but he's pretty easily #2 in my opinion.

niel89
09-30-2009, 08:16 PM
He is my clear cut #2 but that time in Oakland really hurts my image of him, so many jogged routes.

bored of education
09-30-2009, 08:18 PM
he still jogs routes and has a sense of entitlement which is another reason i'd never put him in the top spot

JT Jag
09-30-2009, 08:22 PM
If Jimmy Smith was gifted with Randy Moss' athleticism and talent (or the other way around, with Moss being given Smith's dedication to his craft), we'd have the greatest WR of all time.

Jimmy Smith ran immaculate routs and NEVER tipped off the defensive back (Chris McAlister once said that no matter what Jimmy did, be it a slant, curl or a block on a run play, he ALWAYS ran the first few steps of the route the EXACT same way, making it impossible to diagnose what he was going to do). Those are the two things Moss is not great at.

Mr.Regular
09-30-2009, 08:26 PM
1. Jerry Rice
2. Randy Moss

And it's debateable from there but you have to have these guys in this order to begin any credible list.
As a Packers fan you should know that Don Hutson deserves to in the very least be in the discussion for #2.

bored of education
09-30-2009, 08:27 PM
Hutson is in the discussion BUT MOSS IS A DOUCHEBAG! :D

Splat
09-30-2009, 08:27 PM
If Jimmy Smith was gifted with Randy Moss' athleticism and talent (or the other way around, with Moss being given Smith's dedication to his craft), we'd have the greatest WR of all time.

Jimmy Smith ran immaculate routs and NEVER tipped off the defensive back (Chris McAlister once said that no matter what Jimmy did, be it a slant, curl or a block on a run play, he ALWAYS ran the first few steps of the route the EXACT same way, making it impossible to diagnose what he was going to do). Those are the two things Moss is not great at.

John Madden would say a million times when I played the Jags on a old school version of Madden "Jimmy Smith has the ability to have a 100 200 or even 300 yard game" :).

wonderbredd24
09-30-2009, 08:29 PM
As a Packers fan you should know that Don Hutson deserves to in the very least be in the discussion for #2.

I was wondering when Hutson was going to get a mention.

Yes, the game was different when he played, but he was so ridiculously productive in his era, he's definitely in the conversation in my opinion.

Mr.Regular
09-30-2009, 08:37 PM
I was wondering when Hutson was going to get a mention.

Yes, the game was different when he played, but he was so ridiculously productive in his era, he's definitely in the conversation in my opinion.
Agreed. I think the list should always be Rice/Hutson 1/2. I understand the Moss love, but I think Hutson really changed the game and we all know how dominant Rice was.

TACKLE
09-30-2009, 09:26 PM
To me, Moss is the most talented, dominant and impactful WR of all-time.

edit: Though production doesn't lie. Jerry is still #1 but I stand by what I said above.

BamaFalcon59
09-30-2009, 09:31 PM
IMO Rice is unquestionably the best and possibly the most dominant.

But there is a very good arguement for Moss being the best when on his game.

Brent
09-30-2009, 09:49 PM
wow, people saying he's better than Rice makes me shake my head.

he's #2 or #3 for sure though.

MetSox17
09-30-2009, 09:58 PM
wow, people saying he's better than Rice makes me shake my head.

he's #2 or #3 for sure though.

I think right now when you compare their production, it isn't much of an argument, but if you ask me who i want on my team for a game, at the prime of their career, i'm taking Randy Moss.

wonderbredd24
09-30-2009, 10:01 PM
I think right now when you compare their production, it isn't much of an argument, but if you ask me who i want on my team for a game, at the prime of their career, i'm taking Randy Moss.

Randy Moss is a fantastic player, but Jerry Rice has the jewelry

Rosebud
09-30-2009, 10:04 PM
I don't know if any WR has ever had as big of an impact on defense as randy moss and his big play ability. Does that make him the best WR ever? Not necessarily, but I think it certainly puts him in the discussion.

MetSox17
09-30-2009, 10:05 PM
Randy Moss is a fantastic player, but Jerry Rice has the jewelry

What the hell does it matter that Jerry Rice has rings? How does that make him a better WR than Randy Moss?

wonderbredd24
09-30-2009, 10:06 PM
I don't know if any WR has ever had as big of an impact on defense as randy moss and his big play ability. Does that make him the best WR ever? Not necessarily, but I think it certainly puts him in the discussion.

If you're going with that, Don Hutson wins, because when Hutson started in the league, they did not double team receivers. Everyone played straight up one on one. Then he put up numbers equivalent to the next three guys combined

Giantsfan1080
09-30-2009, 10:07 PM
It helped that Jerry Rice had Joe Montana and Steve Young throwing to him as well. Moss has only had Brady for a year now and a couple of games now.

wonderbredd24
09-30-2009, 10:08 PM
What the hell does it matter that Jerry Rice has rings? How does that make him a better WR than Randy Moss?

The goal is to win the Superbowl and Jerry Rice was at his best on the biggest stage.

tjsunstein
09-30-2009, 10:08 PM
As a Packers fan you should know that Don Hutson deserves to in the very least be in the discussion for #2.

Slipped my mind. Some say Don Hutson was Jerry Rice before Jerry Rice was.

wonderbredd24
09-30-2009, 10:09 PM
It helped that Jerry Rice had Joe Montana and Steve Young throwing to him as well. Moss has only had Brady for a year now and a couple of games now.

And that ridiculously stacked Minnesota team that choked to the Falcons.

And isn't this year 3 of Moss in New England?

tjsunstein
09-30-2009, 10:09 PM
It helped that Jerry Rice had Joe Montana and Steve Young throwing to him as well. Moss has only had Brady for a year now and a couple of games now.

It helps that Joe Montana and Steve Young had Jerry Rice to throw to.

Giantsfan1080
09-30-2009, 10:10 PM
And that ridiculously stacked Minnesota team that choked to the Falcons.

And isn't this year 3 of Moss in New England?

It's his 3rd year but Brady was out all of last year.

tjsunstein
09-30-2009, 10:10 PM
And that ridiculously stacked Minnesota team that choked to the Falcons.

And isn't this year 3 of Moss in New England?

A year and a couple games would mean all of '07 and a couple games this year. Brady was out last year, 'member?

MetSox17
09-30-2009, 10:11 PM
The goal is to win the Superbowl and Jerry Rice was at his best on the biggest stage.

That's ********. A WR probably has the least in his control on whether his team is successful or not, so i don't know why you're trying to use Super Bowl wins as a barometer for greatness between Rice and Moss.

wonderbredd24
09-30-2009, 10:12 PM
It's his 3rd year but Brady was out all of last year.

Fair enough.

I still do not see how anyone can rule out championships... that is the whole point

Rosebud
09-30-2009, 10:13 PM
If you're going with that, Don Hutson wins, because when Hutson started in the league, they did not double team receivers. Everyone played straight up one on one. Then he put up numbers equivalent to the next three guys combined

Fair enough, I just think Randy's impact on the passing game even when he isn't touching the ball is mindblowing and have never seen Hutson play.

And that ridiculously stacked Minnesota team that choked to the Falcons.

And isn't this year 3 of Moss in New England?

That ridiculously stacked Minnesota team still had a mediocre defense which the 9ers never really suffered from.

aNYtitan
09-30-2009, 10:14 PM
Shouldn't we answer this question once Randy Moss's career is done?

wonderbredd24
09-30-2009, 10:23 PM
That's ********. A WR probably has the least in his control on whether his team is successful or not, so i don't know why you're trying to use Super Bowl wins as a barometer for greatness between Rice and Moss.

Doesn't that make his achievements more impressive?

Superbowl XXIII - 11 catches, 215 yards, 1 TD, and the MVP
Superbowl XXIV - 7 catches, 148 yards, 3 TDs
Superbowl XXIX - 10 catches, 149 yards, 3 TDs

TACKLE
09-30-2009, 10:25 PM
Watch This Video! I love DeAngelo Hall's story at the beginning.

bE8sJI7PxQU

brat316
09-30-2009, 11:03 PM
He is a very good WR, but eventually when his knees and speed gives out he is going to have to find something else to help keep him a dangerous weapon.

Guys like Smith and Rice, once their speed gave out, they still managed to stay sharp with route running, blocking, getting better at the smaller things.

RaiderNation
09-30-2009, 11:07 PM
One of the best WR's of all time when motivated. Was great in Minnesota, quit on the team in Oakland, and so far is great in New England.

roscoesdad27
09-30-2009, 11:56 PM
a few thoughts

1) didnt rice play on the raiders too?...he didnt make them better either thus making the whole "what did randy do in oakland" argument silly.

2) saying rice has more rings than randy is evidence that he is better is bull...along those lines of thinking one must also come to the conclusion that bradshaw is better than marino or that robert horry is a million times better than karl malone.

3) there is no doubt that rice had the better career and when looking at their career as a whole than rice is the better reciever...but its equally as obvious that moss at the peak of his game was better than rice at the peak of his game....same goes for my greatest boxer argument...yea ali had a better career and you would be a fool to think that he wasnt better than tyson under that theory...but give me a prime 1987 iron mike over any version of ali....so who's ultimately "better"?...depends on how you look at it i reckon.

CC.SD
10-01-2009, 12:35 AM
a few thoughts

1) didnt rice play on the raiders too?...he didnt make them better either thus making the whole "what did randy do in oakland" argument silly.

2) saying rice has more rings than randy is evidence that he is better is bull...along those lines of thinking one must also come to the conclusion that bradshaw is better than marino or that robert horry is a million times better than karl malone.

3) there is no doubt that rice had the better career and when looking at their career as a whole than rice is the better reciever...but its equally as obvious that moss at the peak of his game was better than rice at the peak of his game....same goes for my greatest boxer argument...yea ali had a better career and you would be a fool to think that he wasnt better than tyson under that theory...but give me a prime 1987 iron mike over any version of ali....so who's ultimately "better"?...depends on how you look at it i reckon.

Rice went to the Super Bowl with the Raiders, what is this about him not making the team better?

Boxing example aside, I would take Rice's peak over Moss's in a second. Perfection.

vikes_28
10-01-2009, 12:54 AM
Watch This Video! I love DeAngelo Hall's story at the beginning.

bE8sJI7PxQU

This video makes me want another really strong armed QB on the vikings.

CC.SD
10-01-2009, 12:55 AM
This video makes me want another really strong armed QB on the vikings.

What about teh favruh>

sweetness34
10-01-2009, 12:58 AM
he still jogs routes and has a sense of entitlement which is another reason i'd never put him in the top spot

Which makes you wonder, how good would he have been if he actually had a consistent work ethic? Pretty scary to think about.

Randy gets by on talent a lot of the time. I think Calvin Johnson is going to be what Randy should have been.

CC.SD
10-01-2009, 01:09 AM
Which makes you wonder, how good would he have been if he actually had a consistent work ethic? Pretty scary to think about.

Randy gets by on talent a lot of the time. I think Calvin Johnson is going to be what Randy should have been.

Calvin is a much bulkier wideout than Randy ever was. I know all about the 4.35 and I'll drool about Megatron any day of the week, but Randy has always had an extra gear that can only be described as pure insanity that I'm not quite sure Calvin can get to. I obviously think Calvin is going to be amazing for a very long time, dominant in fact, but it's going to take more than that to put Randy in the rear view mirror.

Rosebud
10-01-2009, 01:11 AM
Which makes you wonder, how good would he have been if he actually had a consistent work ethic? Pretty scary to think about.

Randy gets by on talent a lot of the time. I think Calvin Johnson is going to be what Randy should have been.

While I think that's possible let's see Megatron become the player that Randy is before saying he's going to be the player Randy was supposed to be.

sweetness34
10-01-2009, 01:12 AM
Calvin is a much bulkier wideout than Randy ever was. I know all about the 4.35 and I'll drool about Megatron any day of the week, but Randy has always had an extra gear that can only be described as pure insanity that I'm not quite sure Calvin can get to. I obviously think Calvin is going to be amazing for a very long time, dominant in fact, but it's going to take more than that to put Randy in the rear view mirror.

So far in his career he's had Jon Kitna, Drew Stanton, Dan Orlovsky, Daunte' Culpepper (bad Daunte') and Matt Stafford throwing to him. Calvin's potential is flat out scary, plus from all accounts he has a very strong work ethic.

It will take a lot for him to get to Randy's level. Playing in Detroit might hinder that as well (along with the development of Stafford), but Calvin has every physical tool you look for in a franchise WR. What he lacks in speed he makes up for in size.

sweetness34
10-01-2009, 01:17 AM
While I think that's possible let's see Megatron become the player that Randy is before saying he's going to be the player Randy was supposed to be.

It's a prediction. Or maybe you missed the "I believe" part of my post.

In college and the pros Megatron hasn't had a legitimate QB throwing to him. While Daunte' was overrated with Minnesota he was certainly better than anything Megatron has had so far.

He made Reggie Ball look half-way decent at times with Georgia Tech. My worry is whether or not he'll have a legit QB throwing to him in his career at Detroit. If there is one variable that Stafford has going for him it's that he can throw to Megatron any time he wants to. He's certainly one of those players that can make a QB look good.

RaiderNation
10-01-2009, 01:30 AM
Theres no doubt in my mind Calvin will be a great WR and the best WR in the NFL in a year or 2, but better than Moss in his prime? I only see 1 Wr all time better than Moss in his prime(Rice).

Man I was a big fan of Calvin during his draft, thought he was with out a doubt the #1 prospect and wanted him, him and Moss on the same team would be scary. But we draft Russell and trade Moss for a 4th... go raiders?

ElectricEye
10-01-2009, 01:46 AM
I'll go with the cliche on Moss and say he's the most talented wide receiver of all time, probably has the most impact of any receiver that's ever played the game...but Rice was better because he had a better head on his shoulders(although Moss has been fine for us).

BlindSite
10-01-2009, 02:48 AM
Can you imagine if he hadn't had 3 down years, his last in minnesota and his two in oakland how much better his numbers could've been.

gsorace
10-01-2009, 08:41 AM
Jerry Rice is the greatest football player I've ever seen play. I can't put anyone above him

bantx
10-01-2009, 09:02 AM
Moss'd him

awfullyquiet
10-01-2009, 09:10 AM
1. Jerry Rice
2. Randy Moss

And it's debateable from there but you have to have these guys in this order to begin any credible list.

I'd support this. Jerry Rice dominated. Dominated.
Dominated.
Dominated.

Yeah i can repeat that ad infinitum. Cornerbacks had to play better than their A game to compete with him.

Gay Ork Wang
10-01-2009, 09:55 AM
Whats with Don Maynard

bigbluedefense
10-01-2009, 10:00 AM
Randy Moss will go down as the 2nd best WR of all time, and will be considered the greatest deep threat to ever play the game.

No WR in NFL history has ever dictated a defensive gameplan like Randy Moss has. He's the most intimidating WR Ive ever seen.

That said, no one can touch Jerry Rice.

Jerry Rice is and probably always will be the GOAT at WR.

Splat
10-01-2009, 11:14 AM
Didnt rice play on the raiders too?...he didnt make them better either thus making the whole "what did randy do in oakland" argument silly.


Umm Rice did make them better they had a few pretty good years when Rice was there even made the SB.

roscoesdad27
10-01-2009, 11:24 AM
rice is better for a west coast or mike martz type offense because of his precision routes, willingness to go accross the middle and yac ability....moss is better for a power run/playaction offense (esp. one with a strong armed q.b.) because of his vertical/ jump ball abilities which would keep the box clean for the running game....if i could pick one (in their prime) to play for my team (ravens) right now i would pick moss without hesitation altho i would love to have either....if i was a west coast team i would easily take rice in his prime...thats how close these guys are, it comes down to scheme.

roscoesdad27
10-01-2009, 11:27 AM
Umm Rice did make them better they had a few pretty good years when Rice was there even made the SB.

yea you got me there but you cant sham on the fact that moss was on the 2 best offenses of all times...its a wash as far as making teammates better imho, which was my point.

bigbluedefense
10-01-2009, 11:55 AM
Moss can go up the middle and run short routes. He did it plenty against the Bills.

When asked to do it, he does it and does it well.

But theres really no point of him doing that. His job is to stretch the field. His deep routes are the reason why Wes Welker is so effective underneath. He stretches and opens up the field for the rest of his team to catch underneath routes.

He's at his best when he's stretching the field and taking both safeties along with him for the ride.

Asking him to run up the middle underneath is like having a Ferrari and taking it grocery shopping.

You have the beater car for that.

Staubach12
10-01-2009, 12:01 PM
I look at Randy Moss like I look at Barry Sanders: a dominant yet inconsistent walking highlight real. Sanders would be the best of all time if he was always on, but he wasn't. The reason Walter Payton is the best of all time, is that he was the best on a consistent basis. Same thing with Moss. Moss is incredible when he's on the top of his game, but he can't be consistent, and he's not always a team player, two things that Jerry Rice did along with being utterly dominant.

roscoesdad27
10-01-2009, 12:03 PM
Moss can go up the middle and run short routes. He did it plenty against the Bills.

When asked to do it, he does it and does it well.

But theres really no point of him doing that. His job is to stretch the field. His deep routes are the reason why Wes Welker is so effective underneath. He stretches and opens up the field for the rest of his team to catch underneath routes.

He's at his best when he's stretching the field and taking both safeties along with him for the ride.

Asking him to run up the middle underneath is like having a Ferrari and taking it grocery shopping.

You have the beater car for that.

never said he couldnt or that he wasnt great at it...rice is simply better in this role...just like rice can stretch the field but not as good as moss....besides that i completely agree with your post.

bigbluedefense
10-01-2009, 12:06 PM
never said he couldnt or that he wasnt great at it...rice is simply better in this role...just like rice can stretch the field but not as good as moss....besides that i completely agree with your post.

oh absolutely, i agree with you.


I can only imagine how dominant Moss couldve been if he had the qb support that Rice had throughout his career. Thats taking nothing away from Rice, Rice is easily the greatest WR ever, but Moss is a badass in his own right.

CC.SD
10-01-2009, 12:20 PM
Moss can go up the middle and run short routes. He did it plenty against the Bills.

When asked to do it, he does it and does it well.

But theres really no point of him doing that. His job is to stretch the field. His deep routes are the reason why Wes Welker is so effective underneath. He stretches and opens up the field for the rest of his team to catch underneath routes.

He's at his best when he's stretching the field and taking both safeties along with him for the ride.

Asking him to run up the middle underneath is like having a Ferrari and taking it grocery shopping.

You have the beater car for that.

This is the correct way of thinking, I agree that most of the 'weaknesses' people point out in Randy's game are more attributable to coaching. When you have the scariest deep threat around, you're going to stretch the field. Although I have seen some pretty effective Randy screens, those are fun.

bigbluedefense
10-01-2009, 12:24 PM
well, and the fact that he regularly falls down to avoid contact of any kind. i can't imagine that lends itself to people thinking of him as an over-the-middle target.

this is true, but Owens does the same. and he's been known as a guy who works the quick slant as good as anyone.

you don't have to be a YAC machine to be effective up the middle of the field.

Raiderz4Life
10-01-2009, 12:30 PM
I'd put him at #3...He is undeniably the most talented WR of his time but I think CJ is ready to step into those shoes and may even be more talented than Moss.

BuddyCHRIST
10-01-2009, 12:34 PM
Definitely top 3 receivers of all time, I'd probably have him at 2 just because I've always been a big fan of his. Maybe the most dominant ever, but it's not even disputable that Rice is the greatest. If all positions are equal, Rice is by far the greatest football player ever. Don't think that Rice was just great over a long period of time, he has the greatest yardage season ever, and the greatest TD season ever when he had 22 in only 12 games.

Shiver
10-01-2009, 12:43 PM
I going to play devil's advocate and say that Randy Moss is the greatest WR of all time:

1. No one has the physical ability he has; when he came into the league no one knew how to defend him and they still don't well into his career. He redefined what the WR position was about.

2. Unlike Jerry Rice he didn't have a Hall of Fame QB passing to him until 2007, and Rice had two of those Quarterbacks. Randy Moss made the likes of Matt Cassel, Randall Cunningham, Jeff George, Daunte Culpepper, Kerry Collins have productive seasons, something that they did not do without him. Even Tom Brady did not have prolific statistics, until he got Moss that is.

3. He may not have Rice's longevity, but in terms of dominance Moss has had more great seasons. He is the only WR in history to have three seasons of 17 or more touchdowns, that is out of this world. He averaged 12 per year for his first eight seasons. Rice's 87 season was better than Moss' 07 year, but overall I would take Randy Moss' career prime over Jerry Rice.

bigbluedefense
10-01-2009, 12:51 PM
I going to play devil's advocate and say that Randy Moss is the greatest WR of all time:

1. No one has the physical ability he has; when he came into the league no one knew how to defend him and they still don't well into his career. He redefined what the WR position was about.

2. Unlike Jerry Rice he didn't have a Hall of Fame QB passing to him until 2007, and Rice had two of those Quarterbacks. Randy Moss made the likes of Matt Cassel, Randall Cunningham, Jeff George, Daunte Culpepper, Kerry Collins have productive seasons, something that they did not do without him. Even Tom Brady did not have prolific statistics, until he got Moss that is.

3. He may not have Rice's longevity, but in terms of dominance Moss has had more great seasons. He is the only WR in history to have three seasons of 17 or more touchdowns, that is out of this world. He averaged 12 per year for his first eight seasons. Rice's 87 season was better than Moss' 07 year, but overall I would take Randy Moss' career prime over Jerry Rice.

*bites fist*

I can't say it. I just can't say it. Rice personifies the WR position. Its like saying Kevin Greene is better than LT bc he has more sacks. The stats may sound convincing when you sit back and look at it, but you just know its not true.

definitely, and i'm not claiming this makes him a worse receiver. but it certainly impacts perception of his ability to do anything other than go deep.

i always wonder what moss would've been if you'd put rice's brain into his body.

Yeah, i definitely agree with that.

Or Rice's heart, or work ethic. Although Moss gets unfairly criticized for his work ethic. He has a great work ethic but Rice's was out of this world.

terribletowel39
10-01-2009, 12:55 PM
I look at Randy Moss like I look at Barry Sanders: a dominant yet inconsistent walking highlight real. Sanders would be the best of all time if he was always on, but he wasn't. The reason Walter Payton is the best of all time, is that he was the best on a consistent basis. Same thing with Moss. Moss is incredible when he's on the top of his game, but he can't be consistent, and he's not always a team player, two things that Jerry Rice did along with being utterly dominant.
Inconsistent as in '2 yards, 2 yards, 60 yards??' or 'averaging a little over 1500 yards a year over 10 years with the line that he had??'

I know this is a thread about Moss but I have to stick up for Barry. Whichever inconsistent you mean, I respectfully disagree. (I know the 'if' game) If Barry had Emmits line, it would have been 60 yards, 60 yards, 59 yards and probably close to 1800 yards a year over 10 years.

bigbluedefense
10-01-2009, 12:57 PM
When comparing Rice to Moss, let's also remember the rule changes.

The rule change of not allowing CBs to rough up WRs beyond 5 yards has led to an exponential growth of #1 WRs.

Moss was dominant before the rule change, but you still have to factor in that half his career was played with CBs trying to outrun him after 5 yards.

Which obviously plays in Moss's favor.

CC.SD
10-01-2009, 01:02 PM
Inconsistent as in '2 yards, 2 yards, 60 yards??' or 'averaging a little over 1500 yards a year over 10 years with the line that he had??'

I know this is a thread about Moss but I have to stick up for Barry. Whichever inconsistent you mean, I respectfully disagree. (I know the 'if' game) If Barry had Emmits line, it would have been 60 yards, 60 yards, 59 yards and probably close to 1800 yards a year over 10 years.

You're overestimating the Lions O-line here if you think Barry would have been limited to 1800 per year with that group of Cowboy blockers :D

DeepThreat
10-01-2009, 01:34 PM
While the argument for Jerry has already been made, I'd like to add that Moss has a problem with the dropsies. As far as I know (and I'll admit, I wasn't around to watch back then) Jerry never had that problem, and was always incredibly consistent.

Shiver
10-01-2009, 01:35 PM
Jerry Rice was almost run out of San Francisco because he had a terrible case of the dropsies early in his career, very early I should add.

Paranoidmoonduck
10-01-2009, 02:00 PM
It should also be said that while no one ever questioned Rice's heart or work ethic, his attitude both towards coaches and teammates (not even to bring up opposing players) wasn't always smooth sailing. I know that's often glossed over now that he's out of the game (and I imagine a lot of Moss' problems will be mostly forgotten shortly after he retires), but there's plenty of times where Rice was a less than great teammate.

Even with all Moss has accomplished, he'll be a player that most people acknowledge had some unfulfilled potential. That alone probably keeps Rice as the majority choice for best receiver of all time, as there's few people who don't think he maximized his opportunities. That said, if I have choose between taking one for a year in their respective primes, there's no question that I'm picking Moss.

Raiderz4Life
10-01-2009, 02:05 PM
It should also be said that while no one ever questioned Rice's heart or work ethic, his attitude both towards coaches and teammates (not even to bring up opposing players) wasn't always smooth sailing. I know that's often glossed over now that he's out of the game (and I imagine a lot of Moss' problems will be mostly forgotten shortly after he retires), but there's plenty of times where Rice was a less than great teammate.

Even with all Moss has accomplished, he'll be a player that most people acknowledge had some unfulfilled potential. That alone probably keeps Rice as the majority choice for best receiver of all time, as there's few people who don't think he maximized his opportunities. That said, if I have choose between taking one for a year in their respective primes, there's no question that I'm picking Moss.

I think that's true with most great players....the competitor in them will get the best of them from time to time. They're all gonna be less than stellar teammates at one point.

Thing is....its been well documented that Moss will take plays off and that hurts his team. Jerry played his heart out every play.

Paranoidmoonduck
10-01-2009, 02:09 PM
Except that if you ask any defensive back who has had to cover Randy Moss, they say that the hardest thing to do is to get a proper bead on him because he runs his routes are varying speeds all the time. And that includes jogging them.

Now, I know that Moss does give up on plays. I saw him do it routinely in his last year with the Raiders. And it was endlessly frustrating. But the fact that Moss doesn't go 100% speed all the time actually serves to make him that much more difficult to cover.

Raiderz4Life
10-01-2009, 02:17 PM
Except that if you ask any defensive back who has had to cover Randy Moss, they say that the hardest thing to do is to get a proper bead on him because he runs his routes are varying speeds all the time. And that includes jogging them.

Now, I know that Moss does give up on plays. I saw him do it routinely in his last year with the Raiders. And it was endlessly frustrating. But the fact that Moss doesn't go 100% speed all the time actually serves to make him that much more difficult to cover.

Well I'm pretty sure if you ask many of the CBs that covered Rice would say his pin point route running made him incredibly tough to cover as well.

No doubt that Moss has more talent than Jerry but like we used to say in the wrestling room....hard work beats talent when talent doesn't work hard.....I'm not saying Randy doesn't work hard but Jerry's out of this world commitment puts him ahead of Moss in my book.....

And uummm....my #2 is Timmie Brown but that's just homerism i think

djp
10-01-2009, 04:05 PM
When comparing Rice to Moss, let's also remember the rule changes.

The rule change of not allowing CBs to rough up WRs beyond 5 yards has led to an exponential growth of #1 WRs.

Moss was dominant before the rule change, but you still have to factor in that half his career was played with CBs trying to outrun him after 5 yards.

Which obviously plays in Moss's favor.

Good point, but Rice also was playing in a revolutionary offensive system that teams didn't know how to defend for a very long time.

jnew76
10-01-2009, 04:13 PM
1. Jerry Rice
2. Randy Moss
3. Don Hutson

Rice is the best because he ran every route perfectly and had some of the best hands of all time. I think I saw him drop maybe 3 balls in his career. Rice also went all over the field where Moss lives on the outside and deep.

Randy Moss is the most talented draft prospect I have ever evaluated. His combination of height, incredibly long arms, huge hands, leaping ability, and incredible speed and quickness are unmatched in history. If someone wanted to create the perfect WR from scratch I think Randy Moss would be the model.

I have never seen anyone eat up a cusion like Randy. Usually a speed WR has his man beat when they get even with the CB, but Moss has them beat when he gets within 3-5 yards of them. His acceleration from 10-50 yards is unparalleled. He beats defeners who have great angles on him easily. Most pure speed WR's are not great changing direction, but Moss is incredible at maintaining speed out of breaks.

DeAngelo Hall was twice the NFL's fastest man and you saw what Randy did to him in that video.

Simply put, Randy is the most freakish athlete to ever play WR, but it is a shame that he failed to learn to run precise routes and go over the middle. Also, his hands fail him at times. He makes some of the most incredible catches look routine and turns some routine catches into drops.

People need to also remember that Moss was the reason that the Patriots took the late lead in the Super Bowl against the Giants catching the go ahead TD pass, and had an incredible game. He also had a great game in the 1998 Championship against Atlanta, when Gary Anderson decided to miss his first field goal of the season.

Rice is the GOAT, but Moss in his prime would be the one I would pay to see play.

bigbluedefense
10-01-2009, 06:29 PM
Except that if you ask any defensive back who has had to cover Randy Moss, they say that the hardest thing to do is to get a proper bead on him because he runs his routes are varying speeds all the time. And that includes jogging them.

Now, I know that Moss does give up on plays. I saw him do it routinely in his last year with the Raiders. And it was endlessly frustrating. But the fact that Moss doesn't go 100% speed all the time actually serves to make him that much more difficult to cover.

Im so glad someone mentioned this. A lot of times its perceived that he's dogging it, but its simply not true. He likes lining up his DB's body in a position relative to his own so that when he explodes and turns on the 6th gear, he'll blow right by him.

If Moss just ran full speed down the field on every play, he'd be easy to cover. But his ability to really make DBs guess his speed and how to align their bodies relative to his is why he can run downfield every play and still get open.

And once you start giving him too much cushion, he runs those come back routes and just screws you.


Ive also seen him mix up his speed midroute to align a DB with another body and create his own pick. Randy Moss gets killed as a bad route runner, but thats far from the truth. Moss is a very good route runner. Nobody runs teh deep patterns better than him.

Yes, he does dog it once in awhile, but honestly, ever WR does. He just gets more pub for it bc its Randy Moss. He doesn't help his cause either by saying some of the things he says to the media about it. It only magnifies it.

Im glad someone else brought this up.

SenorGato
10-01-2009, 06:33 PM
Greatest receiving playmaker of all time.

LonghornsLegend
10-01-2009, 10:31 PM
He had back-to-back 100 catch seasons, in 2002 and 2003. He, along with Wes Welker, Sterling Sharpe, Jerry Rice, Herman Moore, Cris Carter, Marvin Harrison, and Rod Smith are the only receivers to accomplish this feat.

I know it wasn't the basis or point of your argument, but you left Brandon Marshall off of this list of accomplishments. 102 catches in 07, and 104 in 08. Didn't read through the whole thread to see if this was pointed out or not.


Now as far as Moss, right now he's not the greatest WR ever, but when you look at the pace he's still going at, putting up the insane number of catches he is this year, and having Brady for the last few years of his career, I definately think he'll at least make an argument.


For so long it's always been Jerry Rice [/argument] when it comes to greatest WR ever. If Moss can sustain this level of play 4 or 5 more years I see no reason why he wouldn't be.

Shiver
10-01-2009, 10:43 PM
I know it wasn't the basis or point of your argument, but you left Brandon Marshall off of this list of accomplishments. 102 catches in 07, and 104 in 08. Didn't read through the whole thread to see if this was pointed out or not.


Now as far as Moss, right now he's not the greatest WR ever, but when you look at the pace he's still going at, putting up the insane number of catches he is this year, and having Brady for the last few years of his career, I definately think he'll at least make an argument.


For so long it's always been Jerry Rice [/argument] when it comes to greatest WR ever. If Moss can sustain this level of play 4 or 5 more years I see no reason why he wouldn't be.

Very good point, he should have three or four more productive seasons left in him. (unlike T.O) He will be 2nd in every significant WR category.

CC.SD
10-01-2009, 11:00 PM
Very good point, he should have three or four more productive seasons left in him. (unlike T.O) He will be 2nd in every significant WR category.

I have a suspicion Randy has quite a few years left in him honestly. He will always have length and hands to rely on when his speed drops off.

nepg
10-02-2009, 10:29 AM
Rice was more productive because he never played on a **** team, but Randy Moss is better. It's hard for people to swallow. Moss is the best ever.

Gay Ork Wang
10-02-2009, 10:36 AM
Rice was more productive because he never played on a **** team, but Randy Moss is better. It's hard for people to swallow. Moss is the best ever.
wow. no one prolly will ever get close to Rice. Rice made teams better. Moss on the other hand was great on good teams and trailed on ****** teams. Even though Moss is extremely talented and for me #3 WR of all time, he isnt even close to Rice


pls, just look at the records.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_NFL_records_held_by_Jerry_Rice

NY+Giants=NYG
10-02-2009, 10:42 AM
Moss is a physical freak. His potential as a WR probably is more than any WR that played the game.. Elite speed, good hands, very good measurables. Where it hurt him was his off the field stuff, and perhaps attitude.

Rice produced at a HOF level, due to great attitude and work ethic. Great coaching point for kids to follow. You don't have to be the tallest, or fastest, just work hard and have a good attitude when it comes to what you do, and results can come. Same thing can be learned from Moss. Just because you have all that potential and talent, doesn't mean you don't work hard, or have an attitude about it. If you combined the work ethic of Rice and put it in Moss. Now that would probably be a deadly combo.

But as for Moss, he will be the best WR to play the game, but his production may never match his potential for a lot of reasons. But Moss is a freak of nature and fun to watch throughout his career.

GhostDeini
10-02-2009, 12:00 PM
Moss will never touch Rice. I don't care how much of a freak he is. He only ran 1 route his entire career. Rice was the best run-after-catch WR ever. Not to mention he (Moss) took a season worth of plays off. You can never be considered the best ever if you have to qualify it. So saying when motivated or when he tried he was best ever goes out the window.

nepg
10-02-2009, 12:44 PM
well that was an utterly convincing argument.

can we be honest here, why do people bother posting garbage like this? in a thread full of people making actual arguments, to come in and think that "X is better" is a worthwhile addition is borderline insulting.
Because it's ******* subjective anyway you look at it. Moss was clearly more talented and was/is more dominating than Rice ever was. And even going by productivity, if Moss plays 20 years like Rice did, he'd crush all his records (and still might with far less than 20 years).

no bare feet
10-02-2009, 12:58 PM
When people say Randy has only had Tom brady and Tom Brady's most productive year of his career was when Moss was on the team, I find it odd. Randy may never have had a hall of fame QB' before 2007 so that may have prevented him from further success, right? Well you can then take that argument, spin it for Rice and say that Montana and Young were Hall of Famers because of Rice, right?

Raiderz4Life
10-02-2009, 02:53 PM
When people say Randy has only had Tom brady and Tom Brady's most productive year of his career was when Moss was on the team, I find it odd. Randy may never have had a hall of fame QB' before 2007 so that may have prevented him from further success, right? Well you can then take that argument, spin it for Rice and say that Montana and Young were Hall of Famers because of Rice, right?

Foo you forgetting Rich Gannon

Saints-Tigers
10-02-2009, 03:13 PM
When people say Randy has only had Tom brady and Tom Brady's most productive year of his career was when Moss was on the team, I find it odd. Randy may never have had a hall of fame QB' before 2007 so that may have prevented him from further success, right? Well you can then take that argument, spin it for Rice and say that Montana and Young were Hall of Famers because of Rice, right?

Which is why we should leave this out of it all together. People are really underselling Culpepper and Cunningham at this point anyway. Culpepper had his best season in a year where Randy was hurt in like game 6 or 7 I believe.

I don't hold the Oakland thing against him very much, considering they might have had the worst blocking I've ever seen, so the QB wasn't even capable of getting the ball down field.

bigbluedefense
10-02-2009, 03:16 PM
When people say Randy has only had Tom brady and Tom Brady's most productive year of his career was when Moss was on the team, I find it odd. Randy may never have had a hall of fame QB' before 2007 so that may have prevented him from further success, right? Well you can then take that argument, spin it for Rice and say that Montana and Young were Hall of Famers because of Rice, right?

Actually, Montana won 2 SBs before Jerry Rice ever set foot in the NFL.

Joe was big pimpin without him.

Raiderz4Life
10-02-2009, 03:32 PM
Which is why we should leave this out of it all together. People are really underselling Culpepper and Cunningham at this point anyway. Culpepper had his best season in a year where Randy was hurt in like game 6 or 7 I believe.

I don't hold the Oakland thing against him very much, considering they might have had the worst blocking I've ever seen, so the QB wasn't even capable of getting the ball down field.

I completely agree....Cunningham was a good QB. He was more of a QB and less of an athlete when he got to the Vikings....before that he was Michael Vick

Gay Ork Wang
10-02-2009, 03:38 PM
Because it's ******* subjective anyway you look at it. Moss was clearly more talented and was/is more dominating than Rice ever was. And even going by productivity, if Moss plays 20 years like Rice did, he'd crush all his records (and still might with far less than 20 years).
no moss wouldnt. cause Moss most certainly wont play 20 years. He will lose his speed which is one of his most important assets if not the most important one. Jerry Rice on the other hand was more of a route runner and YAC guy.

nepg
10-03-2009, 08:21 AM
ah. it's "subjective" so all you have to offer is what amounts to "he sucks". brilliant. at least you quantify "more dominating". er... wait. :rolleyes:

It's subjective because while Rice has numbers, Moss is clearly more talented and physically gifted. It's subjective because they're different types of receivers. It's subjective because Rice never played with a **** team or a **** QB. Moss experienced 6 years of bad to below average teams around him. Rice played for 3 bad teams, but those were the only teams he played with that were sub-10 win teams. Rice never had a **** QB. And for those who argue that those teams were good because of Rice, in 1997 the 49ers won 13 games and did so with Rice going out in week 2.

Bengalsrocket
10-03-2009, 09:14 AM
I don't want to get into the Moss / Rice debate right now because I don't have a whole lot of time to put my thoughts into text at the moment. However, I did want to stop in say that every great team Rice has played for was great without him. He simply made them greater.

wordofi
10-03-2009, 09:32 AM
Moss' legacy will be as a guy who made big plays and strecthed the field. However, he has become a more complete player since joining the Patriots.

Woody56
10-03-2009, 10:54 AM
Rice and him are 1a and 1b in my mind.

FUNBUNCHER
10-03-2009, 11:46 AM
Because it's ******* subjective anyway you look at it. Moss was clearly more talented and was/is more dominating than Rice ever was. And even going by productivity, if Moss plays 20 years like Rice did, he'd crush all his records (and still might with far less than 20 years).
Good luck with you and that army of One.

No current or retired NFL player or coach would ever agree with you, but to each his won.

Someone else who never saw Rice play in his prime on Sundays and in the playoffs/SBs, but feels qualified to judge him based on ...nothing.

For future reference, go check out Rice's MVP game against CInncinati in SB 23.

The biggest difference between Rice and Moss is from the neck up, always will be, and why if I had to choose, I'd always want Rice over Moss on my team. Jerry Rice makes your entire WR corps and offense better, because of the leadership he brings in the lockerroom and on the field.

bigbluedefense
10-03-2009, 12:38 PM
Good luck with you and that army of One.

No current or retired NFL player or coach would ever agree with you, but to each his won.

Someone else who never saw Rice play in his prime on Sundays and in the playoffs/SBs, but feels qualified to judge him based on ...nothing.

For future reference, go check out Rice's MVP game against CInncinati in SB 23.

The biggest difference between Rice and Moss is from the neck up, always will be, and why if I had to choose, I'd always want Rice over Moss on my team. Jerry Rice makes your entire WR corps and offense better, because of the leadership he brings in the lockerroom and on the field.

Moss has always made the WR corp, and entire offense in general significantly better around him. In fact, you can make a strong argument that Moss is in fact better at making players around him better than Rice ever was.

Moss is also a clutch player. In the SB against the Giants, the touchdown drive that should have sealed the game, the Pats rode in key moments during their drive, and he scored the touchdown.

Last year, he made a sick TD catch against I believe the Jets that was incredible.

Im not saying Moss is better than Rice, but I think you're shortchanging him on some "intangibles" for a lack of a better term.

FUNBUNCHER
10-03-2009, 01:39 PM
I can't remember ever hearing Moss described as a 'leader' on any team he's played on, bigbluedefense. He's a respected vet because of his talent, but leadership skills have always been low on Moss' list of attributes.

There's a laundry list of NFL players who give Jerry Rice credit for teaching them how to train and workout like pros in the offseason, to improve on their games and how to always seek an edge through superb conditioning and route running technique.

Randy Moss is without question the greatest physical specimen, outside of Calvin Johnson, to ever play the WR position, but I don't think he'll ever be considered the greatest WR to play the game.
He's had too many seasons where the only impact he had on his team were stats, but was unable to elevate the overall performance of his team, especially his last years in Minnesota.

And his time in Oakland where he basically flipped a middle finger to the Raiders franchise will not be soon be forgotten.

To illustrate why Moss will fall far short in almost any comparison to Rice, let's compare their careers in Oakland.
Moss played for the Raiders still well in his prime, (28 and 29 yrsold), and had seasons of 60/1005/8 TDs and 42/553/3 TDs.

Rice played for Oakland well PAST his prime, ( 39, 40, and 41 yrsold), and had seasons of 83/1139/9 TDs, 92/1211/7 TDs, and 63/869/2 TDs.

Randy Moss is a nice player, a great player to be sure and future HOFer, but he's no Jerry Rice.

Paranoidmoonduck
10-03-2009, 01:59 PM
Well, when Rice played on the Raiders they had one of the best offenses in the NFL and when Moss played for the Raiders they weren't even close to that. So that's a pretty shaky comparison.

Rosebud
10-03-2009, 02:07 PM
What BBD was talking about isn't leadership, but how having Randy Moss on the field forces a defense to adjust and overload on stopping the deep ball opening up the field for both the running game and underneath routes while serving to slow a team's blitzing.

FUNBUNCHER
10-03-2009, 02:18 PM
Well, when Rice played on the Raiders they had one of the best offenses in the NFL and when Moss played for the Raiders they weren't even close to that. So that's a pretty shaky comparison.
Shouldn't matter since the Moss supporters are basing their argument strictly on stats anyway. Plenty of talented WRs have put up monster numbers on bad offensive teams.
Last year on an 0-16 team, Calvin Johnson had 78/1331/12 TDs.

Granted, those Raiders teams weren't much better, but I've seen some quit in Randy Moss when he feels he's playing with subpar talent around him that will always rank him just below being one of the greats to ever play the game.

Also, Rice put up those number when he was 39-41 years of age, regardless of how proficient the Raiders were on offense. A guy that old should not be one of the best players on your team, least of all at WR.

Rosebud
10-03-2009, 02:25 PM
Shouldn't matter since the Moss supporters are basing their argument strictly on stats anyway. Plenty of talented WRs have put up monster numbers on bad offensive teams.
Last year on an 0-16 team, Calvin Johnson had 78/1331/12 TDs.

Granted, those Raiders teams weren't much better, but I've seen some quit in Randy Moss when he feels he's playing with subpar talent around him that will always rank him just below being one of the greats to ever play the game.

Also, Rice put up those number when he was 39-41 years of age, regardless of how proficient the Raiders were on offense. A guy that old should not be one of the best players on your team, least of all at WR.

He wasn't, RIch Gannon was the best player on that offense.

nepg
10-03-2009, 02:45 PM
Good luck with you and that army of One.

No current or retired NFL player or coach would ever agree with you, but to each his won.

I doubt there's not any player or coach that wouldn't agree with me. And if they don't, it's more because Rice is so well-respected. This isn't about who the most respected WR is though, is it?

Someone else who never saw Rice play in his prime on Sundays and in the playoffs/SBs, but feels qualified to judge him based on ...nothing.

For future reference, go check out Rice's MVP game against CInncinati in SB 23.

I've seen plenty of Rice, and Moss is just better. I saw the Cincy game, so what? Because I think Moss is better, I must not have seen Rice?

The biggest difference between Rice and Moss is from the neck up, always will be, and why if I had to choose, I'd always want Rice over Moss on my team. Jerry Rice makes your entire WR corps and offense better, because of the leadership he brings in the lockerroom and on the field.

Who cares. Again, it's not about who's the most respected or who helped more people train. Moss makes everyone on his team better by being on the field. He extended Cris Carter's useful life, made TE's like Kleinsasser look like studs, and made Jeff George, Randall Cunningham, and Daunte Culpepper look a whole lot better than they actually were.

Gay Ork Wang
10-03-2009, 02:53 PM
Just like the Raiders...wait....

I dont get your argument. every top WR made his team better. Rice did, moss did, Fitzgerald does and Andre Johnson does. thats what a good player does. Rice has been the best WR in the league basically every season he played. He is the most productive player ever and WR is not a position that has a long career really. Moss needed 16 games to break Rices record that he had in 12 games. And he had Tom Brady, Wes Welker and a very very pass happy offense as well as no running game what so ever and the most aggressive play calling ever maybe (going for it on 4th and 10 with 35 points up (exaggeration))

FUNBUNCHER
10-03-2009, 03:00 PM
He wasn't, RIch Gannon was the best player on that offense.

I said 'one of the best' players on the Raiders offense.

FUNBUNCHER
10-03-2009, 03:03 PM
Nepg, I'll make this simple since apparently I missed the crux of your argument.

Why is Randy Moss in your opinion a better WR than Jerry Rice??

FUNBUNCHER
10-03-2009, 03:12 PM
Moss experienced 6 years of bad to below average teams around him.

Moss only played on one Vikings team that wasn't in the top 10 in scoring.

At worst, he played on three bad offensive teams his entire career, so what??

Plenty of WRs have played on bad offensive teams and put up great numbers.

MetSox17
10-03-2009, 03:17 PM
You're terribly wrong if you think Jerry Rice was the best WR in the NFL for 20 years.

Gay Ork Wang
10-03-2009, 03:25 PM
You're terribly wrong if you think Jerry Rice was the best WR in the NFL for 20 years.
basically, more like 10-13

LonghornsLegend
10-03-2009, 05:36 PM
I can't remember ever hearing Moss described as a 'leader' on any team he's played on, bigbluedefense. He's a respected vet because of his talent, but leadership skills have always been low on Moss' list of attributes.

There's a laundry list of NFL players who give Jerry Rice credit for teaching them how to train and workout like pros in the offseason, to improve on their games and how to always seek an edge through superb conditioning and route running technique.

Randy Moss is without question the greatest physical specimen, outside of Calvin Johnson, to ever play the WR position, but I don't think he'll ever be considered the greatest WR to play the game.
He's had too many seasons where the only impact he had on his team were stats, but was unable to elevate the overall performance of his team, especially his last years in Minnesota.

And his time in Oakland where he basically flipped a middle finger to the Raiders franchise will not be soon be forgotten.

To illustrate why Moss will fall far short in almost any comparison to Rice, let's compare their careers in Oakland.
Moss played for the Raiders still well in his prime, (28 and 29 yrsold), and had seasons of 60/1005/8 TDs and 42/553/3 TDs.

Rice played for Oakland well PAST his prime, ( 39, 40, and 41 yrsold), and had seasons of 83/1139/9 TDs, 92/1211/7 TDs, and 63/869/2 TDs.

Randy Moss is a nice player, a great player to be sure and future HOFer, but he's no Jerry Rice.


So I guess it doesn't matter that Rice played alongside Tim Brown, Jerry Porter, with Rich Gannon slinging the ball around right? Randy Moss was catching passes from Andrew freakin' Walters with an attrocious offensive line.


I'm not saying Moss is or will be better then Rice, but put Jerry Rice on that team and ask yourself what his stats would be.

nepg
10-03-2009, 08:01 PM
Not to mention Taylor and a host of great TE's, RB's, the greatest QB ever, another HoF QB, and a QB that would have been an HoFer if he hadn't finally gotten a chance to start so late in his career...

Borat
10-03-2009, 08:09 PM
Not to mention Taylor and a host of great TE's, RB's, the greatest QB ever, another HoF QB, and a QB that would have been an HoFer if he hadn't finally gotten a chance to start so late in his career...

I've been struggling to figure out who you are talking about. Garcia maybe? Either way, there definitely hasn't been another HOF-potential QB in SF since Young. Come on man, that's just silly.

FUNBUNCHER
10-03-2009, 08:35 PM
I think nepg is talking about Rich Gannon.

Great WRs still put up stats on bad teams. It happens all the time. It happened last year with Calvin Johnson playing for the worst team in the history of the league.

I don't know why Randy Moss gets a pass for dogging it in Oakland. He quit on those teams, and I can't count the amount of times I saw Moss jog from the line at the snap when he played for the Raiders.

Why do you think the Pats were able to get a future HOFer in his prime for a 4th round pick? Because everyone knew his putrid perfomance wasn't the fault of the QB or because he played on a bad team. All the questions most teams had were about Moss and his desire and passion for the game. If he even cared about being a great player or not.

And for those who say a fortysomething Jerry Rice benefited by playing in Oakland with other talented WRs, logic says Jerry Rice's numbers would have decreased, he should not have continued to produce at an pro bowl level with supposedly fewer opportunities to catch the ball. And didn't Moss play with Jerry Porter too?

And are Montana and Young lesser QBs because they played in an offensive machine in SF?? I don't understand why people argue Moss never benefited from not having a HOF QB. He still played with a good QB in Minnesota and a future HOFer in NE. Besides, how talented does a QB need to be to get Randy Moss the ball? He only runs one route anyway.

Look, Moss may eclipse some of Rice's numbers, maybe he won't. But IMO people will be hard pressed to make a credible case that Moss is a better WR than Rice. Potentially equal numbers and better physical tools doesn't make you the best WR, it just puts you in the discussion.

Shiver
10-03-2009, 08:44 PM
Moss was injured a lot of his time in Oakland. He had nagging hamstring issues that had people thinking he was "done" and no longer had that game-breaking ability.

Not too mention it was one of the most dysfunctional offenses in recent memory. Let us never forget the Art Shell/Tom "Bed & Breakfast" Walsh offensive juggernaut.

Raiderz4Life
10-03-2009, 10:52 PM
So I guess it doesn't matter that Rice played alongside Tim Brown, Jerry Porter, with Rich Gannon slinging the ball around right? Randy Moss was catching passes from Andrew freakin' Walters with an attrocious offensive line.


I'm not saying Moss is or will be better then Rice, but put Jerry Rice on that team and ask yourself what his stats would be.

Andre Johnson was catching passes from David Freakin Carr, Calvin Johnson was catching passes from Dan Orlovski Drew Stanton Daunte Culpepper and i think i'm forgetting 1 more QB.

Paranoidmoonduck
10-03-2009, 11:03 PM
Not too mention it was one of the most dysfunctional offenses in recent memory. Let us never forget the Art Shell/Tom "Bed & Breakfast" Walsh offensive juggernaut.

Seriously. We're talking about one of the worst offenses of the last 20 years of football here (which, coincidentally, was the last time anyone had tried to run that sort of scheme in the NFL).

Saints-Tigers
10-04-2009, 12:29 AM
Seriously, why are we even talking about what either did in Oakland? I don't want to even talk about which guy was better at his worst.