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Todd Bertuzzi
10-07-2009, 04:58 PM
http://blogs.usatoday.com/gameon/2009/10/players-voted-favre-nfls-most-overrated.html

Sports Illustrated polled 239 NFL players prior to week two of this season on who they thought was the most overrated player in the league and the results were as follows:

Favre 13%

Tony Romo 10%

Terrell Owens 8%

Eli Manning 7%

Gay Ork Wang
10-07-2009, 04:59 PM
kinda works, although Eli did silent the doubters

Saints 4 Lyfe
10-07-2009, 04:59 PM
Romo easily imo

Dam8610
10-07-2009, 05:04 PM
Eli Manning 7%

Really? The other 3 I can understand, but Eli is finally starting to look like a QB worthy of being the #1 pick that he was back in 2004. He has the 2nd highest TD pass total in the NFL and his team, particularly his offense, looks to be among the league's elite at this point. I'm starting to think reputations in the NFL lag a year or two behind performance.

JeffSamardzijaIRISH
10-07-2009, 05:06 PM
This was week two though, poll now and Favre and Eli are probably off of that list.

Paranoidmoonduck
10-07-2009, 05:14 PM
Really? The other 3 I can understand, but Eli is finally starting to look like a QB worthy of being the #1 pick that he was back in 2004. He has the 2nd highest TD pass total in the NFL and his team, particularly his offense, looks to be among the league's elite at this point. I'm starting to think reputations in the NFL lag a year or two behind performance.

You have to look at it from an NFL players perspective. They're going to name guys which have gotten excessive amounts of media coverage without necessarily having the numbers or skills to warrant it. There's no mystery as to why two of the guys are quarterbacks in big markets and the other two have been as over-covered as any two NFL players in the history of the game.

aNYtitan
10-07-2009, 05:17 PM
IMO Romo is more overrated. For many, he is considered an elite QB even though he has not proven anything, and has a skill set that should produce better statistics, but is quite turnover prone and makes many mistakes. The only reason people say Favre is overrated is because of all his drama. He does what he is asked to do well. Manage the team, and when needed to, go ahead and take shots and try to carry the team when running the ball won't do (see game versus the Niners).

Shiver
10-07-2009, 05:17 PM
Tony Romo hands down, he's a poor man's Brett Favre without the MVP awards and the wins. At least Favre has done something in his career.

SeanTaylorRIP
10-07-2009, 05:46 PM
I have to go Romo. Everyone always has an excuse for him. Until in a clutch situation he proves us all wrong than he should be labeled overrated. Still with that said I'd want him, lol.

Shiver
10-07-2009, 06:11 PM
I have to go Romo. Everyone always has an excuse for him. Until in a clutch situation he proves us all wrong than he should be labeled overrated. Still with that said I'd want him, lol.


Let's be honest here: he is a mediocre QB whose statistics were propped up by a Hall of Fame WR and TE. Now that Owens is gone we are seeing who Romo really is.

diabsoule
10-07-2009, 06:13 PM
Let's be honest here: he is a mediocre QB whose statistics were propped up by a Hall of Fame WR and TE. Now that Owens is gone we are seeing who Romo really is.

I agree 100%.

Bengalsrocket
10-07-2009, 06:16 PM
Let's be honest here: he is a mediocre QB whose statistics were propped up by a Hall of Fame WR and TE. Now that Owens is gone we are seeing who Romo really is.

Are you referring to Witten as the HoF TE or am I misreading your sentence and you didn't mean for HoF to be applied to the TE?

Rosebud
10-07-2009, 06:47 PM
Are you referring to Witten as the HoF TE or am I misreading your sentence and you didn't mean for HoF to be applied to the TE?

I think Witten's going to be a hall of famer when he retires. The best TE in the league many years running and he doesn't look like he'll slow down any time soon.

Brodeur
10-07-2009, 06:52 PM
Romo has been getting **** on for the last year and somehow he's overrated? Jesus christ people.

Shiver
10-07-2009, 07:19 PM
Are you referring to Witten as the HoF TE or am I misreading your sentence and you didn't mean for HoF to be applied to the TE?


He's had the best start of any TE in NFL history. I think if not, he is close if he can sustain a high level of play into his thirties.

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/blog/?p=2958

Does that title strike you as odd? Jason Witten (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/W/WittJa00.htm), at least at first glance, doesn't strike me as a HOF player. In 2007, he was named a first-team All-Pro by the Associated Press, and last season he was named to its second-team. But his lack of awards to date has more to do with the dominance of Tony Gonzalez (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/G/GonzTo00.htm) and Antonio Gates (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/G/GateAn00.htm) than the productivity of Jason Witten (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/W/WittJa00.htm). But putting aside the questions of 1) exactly how good Witten has been, 2) whether or not he should make the Hall of Fame one day, or 3) whether or not he's a HOFer right now, by the time he retires it looks like he'll wind up in the Hall of Fame. And that comes as a surprise to me.

...

With 40 receptions and 472 receiving yards in 2009, he will have more receptions and more receiving yards than any other tight end through the age of twenty-seven (http://subscribers.footballguys.com/apps/histdatadom.php?groupyears=1&minyr=1960&maxyr=2008&tm=all&pos=te&minage=19&maxage=27&minexp=1&maxexp=25&stat1=recyd&stat1min=&stat1max=&stat2=none&stat2min=&stat2max=&stat3=none&stat3min=&stat3max=&stat4=none&stat4min=&stat4max=&sortby1=s1&ad1=desc&sortby2=alph&ad2=asc&display=c)

bored of education
10-07-2009, 07:34 PM
Past success doesn't guarantee future numbers either. The greatness of Tony G comes from the fact he has missed 2 games in his career. If you wanna project the future, I see Tony G getting at least 60 receptions another 5 years in a row and being top 3 in receptions all time.

Witten needs at least 6 more years of averaging 80 receptions 7 TDS and 900 yards to be in the same paragraph as Tony G. If he has that, then he will have similar stats as Tony G (who is only 33 btw) had at the age of 32.


I'm not saying Witten can't do it, but he has to average at least those number above to do what Tony has done. You cannot project what he will do without projecting what Tony has ahead of him...still only being 33 years old.

Shiver
10-07-2009, 07:46 PM
I completely agree with you. I'm just saying that Jason Witten is really, really good from a historical standpoint.

bored of education
10-07-2009, 07:50 PM
I completely agree with you. I'm just saying that Jason Witten is really, really good from a historical standpoint.

So is Adrian Peterson but he ain't Walter Payton or Barry Sanders or Jim Brown. :)

But I agree Witten is nasty.

MetSox17
10-07-2009, 07:54 PM
Let's be honest here: he is a mediocre QB whose statistics were propped up by a Hall of Fame WR and TE. Now that Owens is gone we are seeing who Romo really is.

LOL, i find this hilarious. Go check what Owens is doing in Buffalo without a QB. What are his numbers again? A QB always makes a WR a better player than what the WR makes the QB.

SeanTaylorRIP
10-07-2009, 07:58 PM
LOL, i find this hilarious. Go check what Owens is doing in Buffalo without a QB. What are his numbers again? A QB always makes a WR a better player than what the WR makes the QB.

True but if you gave Joe Flacco TO, Witten, and Marion Barber, he'd be setting passing records.

Shiver
10-07-2009, 08:04 PM
LOL, i find this hilarious. Go check what Owens is doing in Buffalo without a QB. What are his numbers again? A QB always makes a WR a better player than what the WR makes the QB.

Terrell Owens at age 35 is a whole lot different than what he was two and three years ago. He showed signs of decline last year, but he has hit a huge wall this year.

As for your last sentence:

A QB always makes a WR a better player than what the WR makes the QB.

I present to you in one image, this man:

http://sportsmed.starwave.com/i/magazine/new/moss_20021007.jpg

Ask Randall Cunningham, Jeff George, Daunte Culpepper, Kerry Collins, Tom Brady, Matt Cassel and Chad Pennington about what Randy Moss meant for their careers.

MetSox17
10-07-2009, 08:06 PM
True but if you gave Joe Flacco TO, Witten, and Marion Barber, he'd be setting passing records.

If we're gonna play the assumption game, then i could go ahead and say that if we had a different coaching staff, we'd be in the Superbowl. See how easy it was to make up a ridiculous statement? :rolleyes:

Common myth about Owens from people that know nothing about this team is that he came in and made everyone around him so much better. Matter of fact is that Romo made HIM better. There's no way around that. You give Owens a ****** QB and he is as useless as anyone else.

MetSox17
10-07-2009, 08:08 PM
Terrell Owens at age 35 is a whole lot different than what he was two and three years ago. He showed signs of decline last year, but he has hit a huge wall this year.

As for your last sentence:


Ask Randall Cunningham, Jeff George, Daunte Culpepper, Kerry Collins, Tom Brady, Matt Cassel and Chad Pennington about what Randy Moss meant for their careers.

Randall Cunningham and Daunte Culpepper were good quarterbacks. Kerry Collins didn't do **** with Randy. Chad Pennington has never even played with Randy. And Matt Cassel was an average quarterback last year, so i'm not sure i know where you're going with that.

P-L
10-07-2009, 08:08 PM
LOL, i find this hilarious. Go check what Owens is doing in Buffalo without a QB. What are his numbers again? A QB always makes a WR a better player than what the WR makes the QB.
Roy Williams has not been producing as well with Tony Romo as he was with "no quarterback" in Detroit.

MetSox17
10-07-2009, 08:10 PM
Roy Williams has not been producing as well with Tony Romo as he was with "no quarterback" in Detroit.

Completely different offenses. Did you see Sundays game? The Carolina game? Jason Garrett ******* blows as an offensive coordinator.

I'm not saying Romo is a great quarterback, he has been terrible these past few games, but i'm not so sure how the hell he's overrated. No one thinks he's that good.

Hurricanes25
10-07-2009, 08:13 PM
Randall Cunningham and Daunte Culpepper were good quarterbacks. Kerry Collins didn't do **** with Randy. Chad Pennington has never even played with Randy. And Matt Cassel was an average quarterback last year, so i'm not sure i know where you're going with that.

Moss played with Pennington at Marshall.

MetSox17
10-07-2009, 08:13 PM
Moss played with Pennington at Marshall.

Yeah, about 48 years ago.

Ward
10-07-2009, 08:13 PM
It's Romo by a mile.

MetSox17
10-07-2009, 08:14 PM
It's Romo by a mile.

Lol, this coming from someone that wants Jon Kitna starting. I think we all know how you feel already, Ward. You hate Romo, we get it.

D-Unit
10-07-2009, 08:18 PM
Lol, this coming from someone that wants Jon Kitna starting. I think we all know how you feel already, Ward. You hate Romo, we get it.
Yeah, maybe Romo used to be overrated, but nowadays, everybody knocks on him.

He's missing TO right now... and even he knows it.

Garrett's not putting him in a good position to succeed, even though Jerry has. All of Jerry's GM moves in the offseason were geared at making this "Romo friendly". Garrett has failed to produce. Ironic as Garrett was the head of the spear when it came to the release of TO.

619
10-07-2009, 08:18 PM
I don't think Romo will be overrated for that much longer. I'm kinda getting used to this Tony Romo.

Shiver
10-07-2009, 08:18 PM
Completely different offenses. Did you see Sundays game? The Carolina game? Jason Garrett ******* blows as an offensive coordinator.

I'm not saying Romo is a great quarterback, he has been terrible these past few games, but i'm not so sure how the hell he's overrated. No one thinks he's that good.


I'll give you that, he is starting to get the Reggie Bush treatment. After this year no one will consider Romo an above average QB and you will be right, he won't be overrated.

D-Unit
10-07-2009, 08:22 PM
...and after 4 posts in this thread... Romo went from overrated to underrated. LOL.

One day folks will realize that according to his current criticism, Romo is actually better than what people are saying now.

The most overrated guy right now is in fact Drew Brees. NOR will collapse before they become relevant.

SeanTaylorRIP
10-07-2009, 08:24 PM
...and after 4 posts in this thread... Romo went from overrated to underrated. LOL.

One day folks will realize that according to his current criticism, Romo is actually better than what people are saying now.

The most overrated guy right now is in fact Drew Brees. NOR will collapse before they become relevant.

If NO loses it will have nothing to do with Brees.

MetSox17
10-07-2009, 08:24 PM
...and after 4 posts in this thread... Romo went from overrated to underrated. LOL.


That's my job ;)


One day folks will realize that according to his current criticism, Romo is actually better than what people are saying now.

The most overrated guy right now is in fact Drew Brees. NOR will collapse before they become

Exactly. No one is claiming him to be a god, nor have we ever, but everyone takes this hostile stance towards anything Dallas related because of how the media portrays the team. Didn't know there was that many ESPN puppets.

And i don't know about Drew Brees being overrated, but i do think NO is overrated. He's a good QB, but like i've stated before, i don't see them doing much in the playoffs.

Brodeur
10-07-2009, 08:28 PM
...and after 4 posts in this thread... Romo went from overrated to underrated. LOL.

Hey I was the first to point this out.

MichaelJordanEberle (sabf)
10-07-2009, 08:33 PM
You haters are ridiculous, Romo is an all-time great.

now he is overrated again :)

YAYareaRB
10-07-2009, 08:36 PM
It should be Romo. That's disrespectful that they would vote Brett Favre that. Romo is the most overrated player in some time. He's overrated in real life, madden, fantasy football, etc. He's been talked about as progressing because this is only his 2nd or 3rd year of starting but to me, this is the best he gets and it would be better for him and the cowboys if they would stop referring to him as a franchise QB

diabsoule
10-07-2009, 08:40 PM
...and after 4 posts in this thread... Romo went from overrated to underrated. LOL.

One day folks will realize that according to his current criticism, Romo is actually better than what people are saying now.

The most overrated guy right now is in fact Drew Brees. NOR will collapse before they become relevant.

Care to back up that statement about Drew Brees? You're talking about the same QB who passed for 9 TD's with only 2 INT, who averages 8.0 yards per pass, who in four games has already passed for over 1,000 yards and has a QB rating of 108.4.

This is the same QB who passed for over 5,000 yards with 34 TDs and 17 INTs and that finished with a 96.2 passer rating last year.

People have been saying how irrelevant New Orleans is since the start of the season but the Saints are the team that put up right at 100 yards more than the Jets did and that was done against a top 5 defense. This is also the same team that has beaten two of the teams in the top 10 of the NFL power rankings in the Jets and Eagles.

Right now the Saints are #2 in the league in total offense and #9 in the league in total defense. We are beating teams without our Pro Bowl offensive tackle Jammal Brown who is out for the season and we beat the Jets using our third string left tackle. As of this week they ARE relevant.

The game in week 6 against the Giants will show a lot about how we will do come the playoffs but as of right now the Saints are winning on the strength of both units and not just the potent offense.

D-Unit
10-07-2009, 08:42 PM
If NO loses it will have nothing to do with Brees.
Why? What has he ever done? 1 playoff win in 7 years as a starter? Only making the playoffs 2 times? At least Romo made it to the playoffs 2/3 times as a starter.

...and people have him as what? A top 3 QB in the league? With some calling him #1? That my friend is what I call overrated.

MetSox17
10-07-2009, 08:43 PM
You beat a rookie QB and Kevin Kolb. Whoop-dee-doo. I wasn't accusing Brees of being overrated, but this Saints team is ridiculously overrated.

diabsoule
10-07-2009, 08:45 PM
Why? What has he ever done? 1 playoff win in 7 years as a starter? Only making the playoffs 2 times? At least Romo made it to the playoffs 2/3 times as a starter.

...and people have him as what? A top 3 QB in the league? With some calling him #1? That my friend is what I call overrated.

They call him a #1 QB and a top 3 QB do to his production. One player on offense can't win all the games for you, you have to rely on the defense, which is something the Saints did not have the past several seasons. Gregg Williams is changing that which you would know if you have seen them play.

YAYareaRB
10-07-2009, 08:45 PM
Why? What has he ever done? 1 playoff win in 7 years as a starter? Only making the playoffs 2 times? At least Romo made it to the playoffs 2/3 times as a starter.

...and people have him as what? A top 3 QB in the league? With some calling him #1? That my friend is what I call overrated.

When you compare what each QB has to work with, I think you'll feel different about the situation.

YAYareaRB
10-07-2009, 08:46 PM
IMO, the whole Dallas team/organization if overrated. Jones, Witten and Barber are raw but thats pretty much it.

D-Unit
10-07-2009, 08:47 PM
Care to back up that statement about Drew Brees? You're talking about the same QB who passed for 9 TD's with only 2 INT, who averages 8.0 yards per pass, who in four games has already passed for over 1,000 yards and has a QB rating of 108.4.

This is the same QB who passed for over 5,000 yards with 34 TDs and 17 INTs and that finished with a 96.2 passer rating last year.

People have been saying how irrelevant New Orleans is since the start of the season but the Saints are the team that put up right at 100 yards more than the Jets did and that was done against a top 5 defense. This is also the same team that has beaten two of the teams in the top 10 of the NFL power rankings in the Jets and Eagles.

Right now the Saints are #2 in the league in total offense and #9 in the league in total defense. We are beating teams without our Pro Bowl offensive tackle Jammal Brown who is out for the season and we beat the Jets using our third string left tackle. As of this week they ARE relevant.

The game in week 6 against the Giants will show a lot about how we will do come the playoffs but as of right now the Saints are winning on the strength of both units and not just the potent offense.
Brees is sitting pretty right now... everyone is adoring him for all the things you said. But fact is, none of that matters right now. I want to see him accomplish something significant before I loft him up. Drew Brees is so far behind Brett Favre and the fact that Favre is being called overrated is laughable. That's why I called Brees overrated.

...and don't fool yourself. Even if you beat the Giants in week 6... it means nothing. Romo's Cowboys never lost to the Giants in the regular season until this year. Ya see what I mean?

D-Unit
10-07-2009, 08:49 PM
When you compare what each QB has to work with, I think you'll feel different about the situation.
Oh so it's not about the QB... it's about what he's surrounded with?

A'caman you coconut. Brown on da outside, white on da inside. You no dat cuz. ;)

D-Unit
10-07-2009, 08:50 PM
IMO, the whole Dallas team/organization if overrated. Jones, Witten and Barber are raw but thats pretty much it.
But you just said Romo had so much to work with...

Siiiiiinking brah. Wat? You like some air?

YAYareaRB
10-07-2009, 08:52 PM
Oh so it's not about the QB... it's about what he's surrounded with?

A'caman you coconut. Brown on da outside, white on da inside. You no dat cuz. ;)

Why you like call me out.. pretty soon D pretty soon I going go windward side and slap ya head you faka. hahaha

But back to the point.. With what Romo has been surrounded with, he shouldn't even be in this argument.

D-Unit
10-07-2009, 08:56 PM
Why you like call me out.. pretty soon D pretty soon I going go windward side and slap ya head you faka. hahaha

But back to the point.. With what Romo has been surrounded with, he shouldn't even be in this argument.
Cuz I no you can handle. You not goin' ack like one mahu and cry laddat. ;)

One day when you come to K-town you let me know.

GB12
10-07-2009, 09:00 PM
Brees is sitting pretty right now... everyone is adoring him for all the things you said. But fact is, none of that matters right now. I want to see him accomplish something significant before I loft him up. Drew Brees is so far behind Brett Favre and the fact that Favre is being called overrated is laughable. That's why I called Brees overrated.
It's about how they are right now, not what they've accomplished.

D-Unit
10-07-2009, 09:12 PM
It's about how they are right now, not what they've accomplished.
So "right now" meaning 1 game back? 2 games back? 3? 4? The difference between games 1 and 2 for Brees and 3 and 4 are night and day.

Favre has been consistent throughout and his team is also 4-0. But the thread topic is about Favre being overrated? Wow. Just wow.

P-L
10-07-2009, 09:13 PM
Well, like someone said this was taken after week two. Brees was really, really good the first two weeks. If I remember correctly, Favre was good but not great in those first two weeks.

YAYareaRB
10-07-2009, 09:25 PM
Well, like someone said this was taken after week two. Brees was really, really good the first two weeks. If I remember correctly, Favre was good but not great in those first two weeks.

Romo on the other hand

1) Tore up a terrible Bucs team and 2) did not do good against the giants (which is okay because the Giants are really good defensive team right?)

Rooo
10-07-2009, 09:26 PM
kinda works, although Eli did silent the doubters

Veronica Mars for president.

Rosebud
10-07-2009, 11:13 PM
LOL, i find this hilarious. Go check what Owens is doing in Buffalo without a QB. What are his numbers again? A QB always makes a WR a better player than what the WR makes the QB.

Come on man, buffalo has a worse coaching staff than dallas, and I think you guys have a terrible coaching staff, and their offensive line has turned Trent Edwards into captain checkdown.

Saints-Tigers
10-07-2009, 11:36 PM
Lol at Cowboys fans calling the Saints irrelevant and attacking Brees. The only relevant thing that has been coming out of Dallas this season is whether or not someone will hit the big screen.

Brothgar
10-07-2009, 11:44 PM
Roy Williams has not been producing as well with Tony Romo as he was with "no quarterback" in Detroit.

That's because KITNA should be starting QB!!! I still <3 Kitna.

Shiver
10-08-2009, 12:45 AM
Lol at Cowboys fans calling the Saints irrelevant and attacking Brees. The only relevant thing that has been coming out of Dallas this season is whether or not someone will hit the big screen.


Win of the year.

tjsunstein
10-08-2009, 12:59 AM
Favre has been adored by the media mostly for his story and not his play on the field in recent years but he's slowly, but surely regaining that. Sadly, it's the media that seems to overrate Favre by just talking about him. Favre's play has been impressive this year, last year before the injury, and in '07 he took us to the NFCCG. I love how people tend to forget how great of a player he is because of his offseason antics. You can't say someone is overrated just because of how much you see them on tv.

General Zod
10-08-2009, 01:12 AM
Lol at Cowboys fans calling the Saints irrelevant and attacking Brees. The only relevant thing that has been coming out of Dallas this season is whether or not someone will hit the big screen.

+rep headin your way :-)

Rosebud
10-08-2009, 01:41 AM
Favre has been adored by the media mostly for his story and not his play on the field in recent years but he's slowly, but surely regaining that. Sadly, it's the media that seems to overrate Favre by just talking about him. Favre's play has been impressive this year, last year before the injury, and in '07 he took us to the NFCCG. I love how people tend to forget how great of a player he is because of his offseason antics. You can't say someone is overrated just because of how much you see them on tv.

I've argued this point with my packers fans friends time and time again, but I was stunningly unimpressed by Favre with the Jets, he's been really good again this season and had a very good year until the giants made him quit in the NFCCG, but he's no where near an elite QB like he used to be and yet he still gets that type of respect, at least on E!SPN and in the hearts of cheeseheads who aren't too bitter.

Brent
10-08-2009, 01:57 AM
sounds like a lot of people watch ESPN/care what ESPN thinks.

PoopSandwich
10-08-2009, 02:49 AM
I don't get how the players can vote Favre most overrated. He's one of the best QB to ever play the game and still plays it at an extremely high level.

How many guys do you think could have made that throw against SF? 2 or 3?

diabsoule
10-08-2009, 03:03 AM
Why? What has he ever done? 1 playoff win in 7 years as a starter? Only making the playoffs 2 times? At least Romo made it to the playoffs 2/3 times as a starter.

...and people have him as what? A top 3 QB in the league? With some calling him #1? That my friend is what I call overrated.

Brees is sitting pretty right now... everyone is adoring him for all the things you said. But fact is, none of that matters right now. I want to see him accomplish something significant before I loft him up. Drew Brees is so far behind Brett Favre and the fact that Favre is being called overrated is laughable. That's why I called Brees overrated.

...and don't fool yourself. Even if you beat the Giants in week 6... it means nothing. Romo's Cowboys never lost to the Giants in the regular season until this year. Ya see what I mean?

Oh, so we're going back to his time in San Diego? The time where it took him to develop and before San Diego had a legitimate defense? The last year Brees was in San Diego they had the 13th best offense and 10th best defense. In 2006, the year after Brees, they had the 4th best offense while New Orleans, the team that Brees led, had the 1st best offense (1st in total yards and 1st in passing yards; San Diego was 4th in total yards and 16th in passing yards). In 2007 the Saints were 3rd best in passing yards and the Chargers 26th in passing yards; the Saints were 4th in total offense the San Diego Chargers 20th; and finally in 2008 the Saints were 1st in passing yards and 1st in total offense, the San Diego Chargers were 11th in total offense and 7th in passing yards. Who did New Orleans rely upon to help win games? Drew Brees. Who was their most valuable player those years? Drew Brees.

What do playoff wins have to do with how good a QB is? If I remember correctly Trent Dilfer took the Ravens to the Super Bowl without a loss. Does that make him a better QB than Drew Brees? It comes to how good the overall team is, not how good the QB is. Yes, good QB helps but Dan Marinio was not surrounded by a good defense but does that make him any less of a great QB?

It does matter what the Saints do against the Giants. The Saints are 1-0 against the Giants and 1-0 against the Cowboys since Brees tenure. Does that say much? No, it comes down to how both respective units play, defense and offense. When Gary Gibbs was the Saints defensive coordinator New Orleans was abysmal ranking near the last 3/4 of the league in total defense. Since the addition of Gregg William we have consistently been a top 10 defense. Yet, we still as much of a potent offense as we have had in the past.

So, sure, Brett Favre has been labeled the most overrated player in the NFL and you, in turn, voted Drew Brees as the most overrated player in the NFL. This has nothing to do with how overrated the QB of your favorite team is but if you want to really look at then look at how overrated Terrel Owens is, Braylon Edwards is, or someone else is, but Drew Brees? Get out of here with that nonsense.

And, by the way, the Saints have won more playoff games than the Cowboys have this decade going 2-0, one of which is attributed to Drew Brees.

NY+Giants=NYG
10-08-2009, 07:17 AM
Really? The other 3 I can understand, but Eli is finally starting to look like a QB worthy of being the #1 pick that he was back in 2004. He has the 2nd highest TD pass total in the NFL and his team, particularly his offense, looks to be among the league's elite at this point. I'm starting to think reputations in the NFL lag a year or two behind performance.

Yeah kind of shocked in a way to see it, but when I think about it, I can't say I am surprised that he is on the list. The stuff on him is never going to go away.

Brothgar
10-08-2009, 07:19 AM
Why? What has he ever done? 1 playoff win in 7 years as a starter? Only making the playoffs 2 times? At least Romo made it to the playoffs 2/3 times as a starter.

...and people have him as what? A top 3 QB in the league? With some calling him #1? That my friend is what I call overrated.

You are aware that there are two sides of the ball right D-Unit? IIRC the Saints missing the playoffs was not due to a lack of scoring.

RAVENS/WIZARDS/ORIOLES
10-08-2009, 08:08 AM
Drew Brees is in a situation like Peyton Manning as been. A lot of offense and little defense. Yes the Colts defense has gotten better but for a while that defense couldn't help the offense enough to get through the playoffs.

619
10-08-2009, 08:15 AM
Drew Brees is in a situation like Peyton Manning as been. A lot of offense and little defense. Yes the Colts defense has gotten better but for a while that defense couldn't help the offense enough to get through the playoffs.

Not this year for Brees. He's got a top 10 unit for now on the other side of the ball. It'll be interesting to see if they can keep that up. I don't think they're pretenders in any way.

RAVENS/WIZARDS/ORIOLES
10-08-2009, 08:28 AM
Not this year for Brees. He's got a top 10 unit for now on the other side of the ball. It'll be interesting to see if they can keep that up. I don't think they're pretenders in any way.

Yea we will see. I don't know their schedule but I don't believe they will be a top 10 defense come playoffs.

diabsoule
10-08-2009, 10:38 AM
Yea we will see. I don't know their schedule but I don't believe they will be a top 10 defense come playoffs.

vs. Giants
@ Miami
vs. Atlanta
vs. Carolina
@ St. Louis
@ Tampa Bay
vs. New England
@ Washington
@ Atlanta
vs. Dallas
vs. Tampa Bay
@ Carolina

Halsey
10-08-2009, 01:34 PM
Many people just don't like Favre. That includes NFL players. Results of a poll can't change the fact that he's started a billion games in a row, goes to the playoffs almost every year and, at 40 years old, is near the top of the league in passer rating and TD's.

D-Unit
10-08-2009, 02:21 PM
HAHAHA. Classic. So it's not really about calling Brees overrated, because he is. It's about a Cowboys fan calling Brees overrated. OK. That makes a huge difference all of a sudden. LOL.

diab man... i like you, but your post made no sense. Stop giving excuses for Brees. I know he's the QB of your favorite team and all, but I'm not buying his excuses. For a QB to be in my top 3, they have to have accomplished something in their career. Brees has yet to do that. You can criticize Romo. I'm fine with that. I'm not the one calling him a top 3 QB.

This is why Brees is overrated by people who call him a Top 3 QB.

1) 1 playoff win in 7 years as a starting QB.

2) His stats are inflated by playing under a pass happy offense.

3) He's had a great supporting cast on offense.

Plug some other QB in the top 5-10 range in that offense and that supporting cast and you'd find a QB with better numbers to what Brees produces. Cutler, Palmer, McNabb, Eli, Rogers... you name it.

Brees is a product of the system boys and girls.

The top 3 QBs are Brady, Peyton and either Eli, Big Ben or Rogers. Brees is no where near the conversation. Old man Favre is better than Brees.

YAYareaRB
10-08-2009, 02:42 PM
3) He's had a great supporting cast on offense.


The only real 1st rounders he has on his team are Shockey and Bush

Rosebud
10-08-2009, 02:49 PM
The only real 1st rounders he has on his team are Shockey and Bush

And D is under-rating just how awful that defense was. And while he does play in a pass happy offense Shaun Payton isn't a good play caller has made a remarkably stupid call in practically every NO game I've seen since he joined the team. Similar to Garrett who I guess "inflates" romo's numbers but is still a crappy play caller who costs his team wins.

Cicero
10-08-2009, 02:52 PM
The only real 1st rounders he has on his team are Shockey and Bush

Colston is an elite receiver and Pierre Thomas is one of the best RBs in the league although they obviously weren't round 1 picks. It's always been the defense that's been the weak link not Brees. If he and Eli traded places there would have been no need for the David Tyree to make that catch and he would have a ring. I think winning a ring is one of the most overrated categories in analyzing any player because no matter how great you are you have to have a decent supporting cast. Marino isn't any less of a QB for not winning a ring and most people know that if you put him in a different situation he easily could have won a ring as well.

For one season the only QBs I would take before Brees is Peyton Manning and maybe Tom Brady. Brees is accurate, makes great decisions, and can carry a team on his shoulders. Their defense has really stepped up and with the emergence of Thomas he won't have to shoulder so much of the load this year though.

Shiver
10-08-2009, 02:57 PM
Colston is an elite receiver and Pierre Thomas is one of the best RBs in the league although they obviously weren't round 1 picks. It's always been the defense that's been the weak link not Brees. If he and Eli traded places there would have been no need for the David Tyree to make that catch and he would have a ring. I think winning a ring is one of the most overrated categories in analyzing any player because no matter how great you are you have to have a decent supporting cast. Marino isn't any less of a QB for not winning a ring and most people know that if you put him in a different situation he easily could have won a ring as well.

For one season the only QBs I would take before Brees is Peyton Manning and maybe Tom Brady. Brees is accurate, makes great decisions, and can carry a team on his shoulders. Their defense has really stepped up and with the emergence of Thomas he won't have to shoulder so much of the load this year though.

Maybe? Anyways..

Yes I do think Brees' stats are inflated, but every QB is influenced by his situation. All the arguments for Brees' can apply to Peyton Manning. They both play in favorable systems, indoors, in warm weather, with great talent around them. The position of QB and the entirety of the offense is a symbiotic relationship, which leads me to my next point:

As for the 1 playoff win argument, that kills me every time. When will we all grow up and admit that Football is a 45-man team sport? I know QB is an important, even crucial, position; but how can we judge one man on the performances of forty-four others? If you could prove to me that Drew Brees' pathetic performance was the foremost reason for their losses then I might give you a little credit, but I have a feeling he played relatively well in some of those "losses."

Halsey
10-08-2009, 03:17 PM
Every successful QB gets called a "system QB with a great supporting cast" by somebody. Fact is you can't prove it one way or another most of the time. It's just a tired, lazy way to argue QB's that never goes anywhere.

D-Unit
10-08-2009, 03:22 PM
Colston is an elite receiver and Pierre Thomas is one of the best RBs in the league although they obviously weren't round 1 picks. It's always been the defense that's been the weak link not Brees. If he and Eli traded places there would have been no need for the David Tyree to make that catch and he would have a ring. I think winning a ring is one of the most overrated categories in analyzing any player because no matter how great you are you have to have a decent supporting cast. Marino isn't any less of a QB for not winning a ring and most people know that if you put him in a different situation he easily could have won a ring as well.

For one season the only QBs I would take before Brees is Peyton Manning and maybe Tom Brady. Brees is accurate, makes great decisions, and can carry a team on his shoulders. Their defense has really stepped up and with the emergence of Thomas he won't have to shoulder so much of the load this year though.
Good post.

But Note... I didn't say anything about Brees NOT winning the SB. I noted 1 playoff win in 7 years as a starter. There's a difference.

D-Unit
10-08-2009, 03:23 PM
Maybe? Anyways..

Yes I do think Brees' stats are inflated, but every QB is influenced by his situation. All the arguments for Brees' can apply to Peyton Manning. They both play in favorable systems, indoors, in warm weather, with great talent around them. The position of QB and the entirety of the offense is a symbiotic relationship, which leads me to my next point:

As for the 1 playoff win argument, that kills me every time. When will we all grow up and admit that Football is a 45-man team sport? I know QB is an important, even crucial, position; but how can we judge one man on the performances of forty-four others? If you could prove to me that Drew Brees' pathetic performance was the foremost reason for their losses then I might give you a little credit, but I have a feeling he played relatively well in some of those "losses."
Can I get that kind of passion in defense of Romo? No. You will never see it from a non Cowboys fan.

Brees being overrated as he is, gets that excuse.

D-Unit
10-08-2009, 03:30 PM
Every successful QB gets called a "system QB with a great supporting cast" by somebody. Fact is you can't prove it one way or another most of the time. It's just a tired, lazy way to argue QB's that never goes anywhere.
I disagree. There are QBs that are only good with a supporting cast and there are QBs who don't need it to be good.

Case in point: Minnesota Vikings with Tavaris Jackson (for years)versus the Minnesota Vikings with Brett Favre (who joined the team after training camp)

That's why it blows me away that this thread is about Favre being overrated. Hogwash!

Brees was so bad in San Diego that they had the need to draft a QB with the No. 1 overall pick. People quickly forget (outside of Chargers fans who can atest) how very so so/bad he was in his earlier years. But with a loaded offense and an air it out coach, he's now golden boy.

YAYareaRB
10-08-2009, 03:38 PM
Brees was so bad in San Diego that they had the need to draft a QB with the No. 1 overall pick. People quickly forget (outside of Chargers fans who can atest) how very so so/bad he was in his earlier years. But with a loaded offense and an air it out coach, he's now golden boy.

1) He was bad in San Diego. He's not bad now. Every QB needs someone to throw the ball too. I can't name a WR that was on the team when Brees was playing for them.

2) Loaded Offense? What loaded offense do you speak of? Marques Colston was a real big surprise to everyone. His connection with Brees is amongst the best in the league. Bush, Moore, Henderson, Shockey? NO Loaded is Reggie Wayne, Marvin Harrison, Brandon Stokely, and Dallas Clark. That's loaded. Loaded is Terrell Owens, Roy Williams, Marion Barber, Jason Witten. That's loaded.

TitleTown088
10-08-2009, 04:11 PM
http://www.theonion.com/content/news/espn_completely_misses_brett_favre

gem.

Gay Ork Wang
10-08-2009, 04:14 PM
i already laughed hard about the title

"I was looking at a newspaper, and it said, 'Favre Sacks Former Team,' and at that point I realized we really missed one," ESPN president George Bodenheimer told reporters. "I just want to apologize to our viewers. Had the Favre-Packers connection dawned on us sooner, fans could have enjoyed the same quality sports journalism they have come to expect from ESPN: driving storylines into the ground and exploiting every one of their subplots to the point of nausea."
"I only wish these two teams played again this year so we could have a chance to fix our mistake," Doria added.

Sniper
10-08-2009, 04:16 PM
Pierre Thomas is one of the best RBs in the league

http://www.nullamatix.com/images/I-dunno-lol.jpg

tjsunstein
10-08-2009, 04:27 PM
The top 3 QBs are Brady, Peyton and either Eli, Big Ben or Rogers. Brees is no where near the conversation. Old man Favre is better than Brees.

Damn you, D-Unit. Rodgers. Rodgers. Aaron Charles Rodgers.

So utimately you're saying he's a product of a system? So he's like a Big 12 quarterback?

I'm not sure if you can call him overrated because of that. If he didn't put up the numbers he does, I see the argument for overrated.

D-Unit
10-08-2009, 05:22 PM
Damn you, D-Unit. Rodgers. Rodgers. Aaron Charles Rodgers.

So utimately you're saying he's a product of a system? So he's like a Big 12 quarterback?

I'm not sure if you can call him overrated because of that. If he didn't put up the numbers he does, I see the argument for overrated.
Matt Leinhart >>>> Aaron Rogers.

TitleTown088
10-08-2009, 05:35 PM
Matt Leinhart >>>> Aaron Rogers.
Aaron Rodgers>>> Romo. :)

RAVENS/WIZARDS/ORIOLES
10-08-2009, 05:35 PM
Brees>Rodgers by far IMO. I will say like this far apart Brees>>>>>>Rodgers

Cicero
10-08-2009, 05:36 PM
Good post.

But Note... I didn't say anything about Brees NOT winning the SB. I noted 1 playoff win in 7 years as a starter. There's a difference.

That you did, I read it but my mind skipped to Superbowl. I still think that most of that blame should go to the defense, but with how the Saints are playing right now I think we'll get to see just how well Brees can do with a solid supporting cast.

D-Unit
10-08-2009, 05:37 PM
Aaron Rodgers>>> Romo. :)
Although I totally agree, I guess my joke was too lame for most people to get.

I'd take Rogeurs over Romo any day.

diabsoule
10-08-2009, 05:54 PM
HAHAHA. Classic. So it's not really about calling Brees overrated, because he is. It's about a Cowboys fan calling Brees overrated. OK. That makes a huge difference all of a sudden. LOL.

diab man... i like you, but your post made no sense. Stop giving excuses for Brees. I know he's the QB of your favorite team and all, but I'm not buying his excuses. For a QB to be in my top 3, they have to have accomplished something in their career. Brees has yet to do that. You can criticize Romo. I'm fine with that. I'm not the one calling him a top 3 QB.

This is why Brees is overrated by people who call him a Top 3 QB.

1) 1 playoff win in 7 years as a starting QB.

2) His stats are inflated by playing under a pass happy offense.

3) He's had a great supporting cast on offense.

Plug some other QB in the top 5-10 range in that offense and that supporting cast and you'd find a QB with better numbers to what Brees produces. Cutler, Palmer, McNabb, Eli, Rogers... you name it.

Brees is a product of the system boys and girls.

The top 3 QBs are Brady, Peyton and either Eli, Big Ben or Rogers. Brees is no where near the conversation. Old man Favre is better than Brees.

I don't care if he's the QB of my favorite team or the QB of one of my most hated teams, Brees production alone ranks him as one of the best in the league. Isn't one of the objectives for an offensive coordinator and head coach is to put your QB in a system where they would flourish? Peyton Manning and Tom Brady have both been put in situations so that they can flourish. The talent around them helps as it would any good QB. Why else would the Patriots have traded for Randy Moss and Wes Welker or the Colts sign Reggie Wayne and Dallas Clark long term?

For a QB to be in my top 3, they have to have accomplished something in their career. Brees has yet to do that. You can criticize Romo. I'm fine with that. I'm not the one calling him a top 3 QB.

Your rating system shows a serious flaw right there. According to your system then Trent Dilfer would be a better QB than Dan Marino because he won a Super Bowl and Marino did not. As far as playoff victories are concerned then Rex Grossman would be a better QB than Drew Brees because he has won more playoff games. So would Jake Plummer, Doug Johnson, Mark Brunell (2005), Brad Johnson, Michael Vick, and Vinny Testaverde to just name a few. Aaron Rodgers, who you rank as one of your top QBs has not won a playoff game in his tenure with Green Bay yet outranks Brees.

In his playoff games these are Brees statistics:

2004 AFC Wild Card vs. NYJ: 31/42, 319 yards, 2 TD, 1 Int, sacked 11 times. QB rating 101.2.
Jets 20-17 OT

2006 Divisional Round vs. PHI: 20/32, 243 yards, 1 TD, 0 Int, sacked 3 times. QB rating 96.2
Saints 27-24

2006 NFCCG vs. CHI: 27/49, 354 yards, 2 TD, 1 Int, sacked 3 times. QB rating 83.2.
Bears 39-14

Romo has led his team to the playoffs 2/3 years but how much of that is a credit to him or a credit to how strong the defense is to bail him out of situations? As Shiver pointed out, there are two sides to the ball and Brees just has not had that top defense until this year. Up until their performance this year the New Orleans defense has consistently been anemic, especially the pass defense. Is it Drew's fault that the defense consistently gets shredded?

Sure, people can say he has a great supporting cast now but did anybody see a 7th round draft pick out of Hofstra in Marques Colston making the impact he's made? Did anybody see an undrafted free agent running back in Pierre Thomas making the impact he's made? How about another undrafted running back in Mike Bell who was cut by the Denver Broncos making the impact he's made? How about another undrafted free agent wide receiver out of Toledo in Lance Moore having the impact he's made? Did anybody see those guys making the impact they've made? I guarantee you no one did. It has to do with great scouting and a little luck that those players have contributed the amount that they have.

Compared to what the Colts have, Patriots have, and Cowboys did have then New Orleans is winning with a bunch of no names. Had anybody really heard of Lance Moore until last season where he jumped onto the scene catching 79 passes for 928 yards and 10 TDs. It was Brees getting him the ball to make that happen.

If you look at Brees statistics while in San Diego it took him three years to develop (2001 bench jockey, 2002 and 2003) in 2004 he threw for over 3,000 yards and passed for 27 touchdowns compared to 7 interceptions and had a 104.8 passer rating for the system. In 2005 he again threw for over 3,000 yards and had a passer rating of 89.2. However, in his time in San Diego he was sacked an average of 22.5 times. In New Orleans he has been sacked an average of 15.6 times, a difference of 6.9 sacks sustained a season. How can someone develop into a great QB if he's constantly under pressure?

Brees is widely considered to be one of the more accurate QBs in the league, one of the smartest, and to possess one of the quickest releases.
http://blog.nola.com/checkitout/2009/09/drew_brees_demonstrates_the_sc.html

YAYareaRB
10-08-2009, 06:47 PM
Shaun Hill > You

BlindSite
10-08-2009, 07:22 PM
Drew Brees wasn't all bad in San Diego, he was bad in his first three years, but then again almost every Quarterback in NFL history wasn't awesome in their first three years, but from then on he had excellent performances.

He's been a top tier QB for nearly 6 years now, it's not as if he landed under Payton and exploded.

http://www.nfl.com/players/drewbrees/profile?id=BRE229498

TitleTown088
10-08-2009, 07:47 PM
Although I totally agree, I guess my joke was too lame for most people to get.



I guess mine was too. :(

D-Unit
10-08-2009, 07:53 PM
Drew Brees wasn't all bad in San Diego, he was bad in his first three years, but then again almost every Quarterback in NFL history wasn't awesome in their first three years, but from then on he had excellent performances.

He's been a top tier QB for nearly 6 years now, it's not as if he landed under Payton and exploded.

http://www.nfl.com/players/drewbrees/profile?id=BRE229498
But Romo is in the 4th year of his career as starter and everyone apparently knows what he is already. Are you willing to say people don't understand Romo yet? I'd like to hear that answer.

But this is about overrated QBs anyways, Brees ain't top 3. No way.

diabsoule
10-08-2009, 08:06 PM
But Romo is in the 4th year of his career as starter and everyone apparently knows what he is already. Are you willing to say people don't understand Romo yet? I'd like to hear that answer.

But this is about overrated QBs anyways, Brees ain't top 3. No way.

Go on believing that. You're in the minority and all of the stats, on field performances, and evidence points to the contrary.

D-Unit
10-08-2009, 08:08 PM
I don't care if he's the QB of my favorite team or the QB of one of my most hated teams, Brees production alone ranks him as one of the best in the league. Isn't one of the objectives for an offensive coordinator and head coach is to put your QB in a system where they would flourish? Peyton Manning and Tom Brady have both been put in situations so that they can flourish. The talent around them helps as it would any good QB. Why else would the Patriots have traded for Randy Moss and Wes Welker or the Colts sign Reggie Wayne and Dallas Clark long term?



Your rating system shows a serious flaw right there. According to your system then Trent Dilfer would be a better QB than Dan Marino because he won a Super Bowl and Marino did not. As far as playoff victories are concerned then Rex Grossman would be a better QB than Drew Brees because he has won more playoff games. So would Jake Plummer, Doug Johnson, Mark Brunell (2005), Brad Johnson, Michael Vick, and Vinny Testaverde to just name a few. Aaron Rodgers, who you rank as one of your top QBs has not won a playoff game in his tenure with Green Bay yet outranks Brees.

In his playoff games these are Brees statistics:

2004 AFC Wild Card vs. NYJ: 31/42, 319 yards, 2 TD, 1 Int, sacked 11 times. QB rating 101.2.
Jets 20-17 OT

2006 Divisional Round vs. PHI: 20/32, 243 yards, 1 TD, 0 Int, sacked 3 times. QB rating 96.2
Saints 27-24

2006 NFCCG vs. CHI: 27/49, 354 yards, 2 TD, 1 Int, sacked 3 times. QB rating 83.2.
Bears 39-14

Romo has led his team to the playoffs 2/3 years but how much of that is a credit to him or a credit to how strong the defense is to bail him out of situations? As Shiver pointed out, there are two sides to the ball and Brees just has not had that top defense until this year. Up until their performance this year the New Orleans defense has consistently been anemic, especially the pass defense. Is it Drew's fault that the defense consistently gets shredded?

Sure, people can say he has a great supporting cast now but did anybody see a 7th round draft pick out of Hofstra in Marques Colston making the impact he's made? Did anybody see an undrafted free agent running back in Pierre Thomas making the impact he's made? How about another undrafted running back in Mike Bell who was cut by the Denver Broncos making the impact he's made? How about another undrafted free agent wide receiver out of Toledo in Lance Moore having the impact he's made? Did anybody see those guys making the impact they've made? I guarantee you no one did. It has to do with great scouting and a little luck that those players have contributed the amount that they have.

Compared to what the Colts have, Patriots have, and Cowboys did have then New Orleans is winning with a bunch of no names. Had anybody really heard of Lance Moore until last season where he jumped onto the scene catching 79 passes for 928 yards and 10 TDs. It was Brees getting him the ball to make that happen.

If you look at Brees statistics while in San Diego it took him three years to develop (2001 bench jockey, 2002 and 2003) in 2004 he threw for over 3,000 yards and passed for 27 touchdowns compared to 7 interceptions and had a 104.8 passer rating for the system. In 2005 he again threw for over 3,000 yards and had a passer rating of 89.2. However, in his time in San Diego he was sacked an average of 22.5 times. In New Orleans he has been sacked an average of 15.6 times, a difference of 6.9 sacks sustained a season. How can someone develop into a great QB if he's constantly under pressure?

Brees is widely considered to be one of the more accurate QBs in the league, one of the smartest, and to possess one of the quickest releases.
http://blog.nola.com/checkitout/2009/09/drew_brees_demonstrates_the_sc.html
I guess I should know from being on the forum this long that there's no changing the mind of a loyal fan. OK, so you think Brees is a Top 3 QB in the league. Carry on.

My logic is not flawed. Marino withstood the test of time. He accomplished a hell of a lot without winning the SB. Winning the SB is not the tell all story like you keep acting as if I'm saying (which I am not). There's a difference between what Marino did in his entire career and what Dilfer and those others did. Winning 1 playoff game in 7 years as a starter... that's Brees' line. That's not "Marino-like" in any way you wanna spin it. Please don't try to compare the 2 or say that Brees is on that path. If you do, then that only justifies me saying he's overrated.

Justifying his stats is exactly the reason why he's overrated in the first place. 1) He's in a pass happy offense. 2) The defense is so bad, that they're always playing catch up.

Enough with the excuses of him losing. A QBs job is to win. ...and THAT is how they are all measured. Fair or not.

D-Unit
10-08-2009, 08:09 PM
Go on believing that. You're in the minority and all of the stats, on field performances, and evidence points to the contrary.
I have yet to hear anyone actually say Drew Brees is a Top 3 QB. Anyone care to put themselves on that ledge???

Sniper
10-08-2009, 08:10 PM
I have yet to hear anyone actually say Drew Brees is a Top 3 QB. Anyone care to put themselves on that ledge???

Drew Brees is the third-best QB in the NFL.

BlindSite
10-08-2009, 08:11 PM
But Romo is in the 4th year of his career as starter and everyone apparently knows what he is already. Are you willing to say people don't understand Romo yet? I'd like to hear that answer.

But this is about overrated QBs anyways, Brees ain't top 3. No way.

Brees is the third best QB in the NFL and it's not even that close really.

Romo, the jury is still out on him as far as I'm concerned he has the continuing potential to be a very good quarterback. I don't like Jason Garrett and for the last two seasons and beyond I've been saying he's neither the Cowboys long term answer at head coach, nor is he that effective as a play caller.

I think that if Romo had a better offensive coordinator and was handled a little better in the offensive design and what he was asked to do he'd be a very dangerous QB and he's shown he can be in the past.

Then again I'm not talking about Romo, I'm talking about Brees, who's probably the most accurate passer in the NFL, with all respect to warner and Pennington's completion % I've never seen a guy put the ball where he does so often in such difficult situations, it's a privilege to watch him play and anyone who utters the word "system" or "inflated stats" is only kidding themselves. The only thing about Brees I don't like as a quarterback is the goddamn jersey he wears.

diabsoule
10-08-2009, 08:17 PM
I have yet to hear anyone actually say Drew Brees is a Top 3 QB. Anyone care to put themselves on that ledge???

Drew Brees is the third best QB in the NFL.

the decider13
10-08-2009, 08:21 PM
I have yet to hear anyone actually say Drew Brees is a Top 3 QB. Anyone care to put themselves on that ledge???

Brees is definately number 3, I can't think of anyone that is even close to him for the third spot.

BlindSite
10-08-2009, 08:24 PM
In fact, I'd put him in the same class as Brady and Manning, I don't debate which of those two are better than one another, and I think Brees is on par with those two.

diabsoule
10-08-2009, 08:28 PM
I guess I should know from being on the forum this long that there's no changing the mind of a loyal fan. OK, so you think Brees is a Top 3 QB in the league. Carry on.

My logic is not flawed. Marino withstood the test of time. He accomplished a hell of a lot without winning the SB. Winning the SB is not the tell all story like you keep acting as if I'm saying (which I am not). There's a difference between what Marino did in his entire career and what Dilfer and those others did. Winning 1 playoff game in 7 years as a starter... that's Brees' line. That's not "Marino-like" in any way you wanna spin it. Please don't try to compare the 2 or say that Brees is on that path. If you do, then that only justifies me saying he's overrated.

The only way they are similar is in their numbers. There's a lot that's different about Marino. From the offense scheme, to the coaching, to the eras they have played in, etc... The comparison was brought on using your system of judging quarterbacks.

Justifying his stats is exactly the reason why he's overrated in the first place. 1) He's in a pass happy offense. 2) The defense is so bad, that they're always playing catch up.

Tom Brady is in a pass happy offense, so is Petyon Manning and Kurt Warner. Right now Ben Roethlisberger is in a pass happy offense. Are they overrated to? How many Super Bowls would those QB's have won if they were playing for the Saints teams since Brees tenure?

Enough with the excuses of him losing. A QBs job is to win. ...and THAT is how they are all measured. Fair or not.

I'm not going to deny that winning percentage is how a QB is measured but it takes more than just a QB to win a football game.

D-Unit
10-08-2009, 08:37 PM
The only way they are similar is in their numbers. There's a lot that's different about Marino. From the offense scheme, to the coaching, to the eras they have played in, etc... The comparison was brought on using your system of judging quarterbacks.
No, you brought up Marino and you concocted some weird system saying it was mine. Putting words in my mouth. I merely criticized his 1 playoff win in 7 seasons. If that's a top 3 QB, then glory glory halelujah!


Tom Brady is in a pass happy offense, so is Petyon Manning and Kurt Warner. Right now Ben Roethlisberger is in a pass happy offense. Are they overrated to? How many Super Bowls would those QB's have won if they were playing for the Saints teams since Brees tenure?
Where oh where have I ever said Brees needed to win a SB to be considered at Top 3 QB? WHERE???!!! You're arguing against your own made up stuff that you think I'm saying.


I'm not going to deny that winning percentage is how a QB is measured but it takes more than just a QB to win a football game.
I don't disagree with that by any means. He just needs to show me more than what he's shown.

D-Unit
10-08-2009, 08:42 PM
Brees as a Top 3 QB - Sniper, Blindsite, the decider and diab so far...

After Brady and Peyton... I'd put Big Ben, Eli, Favre (in no particular order) and then Brees... and I might even put Donovan ahead of Brees... yeah, I will.

I can trust those guys to "make it happen".

tjsunstein
10-08-2009, 08:55 PM
Shaun Hill > You

Not if you're Aaron Rodgers.

1. Peyton Manning
2. Tom Brady

3. Drew Brees
4. Philip Rivers
5. Ben Roethlisberger

6. Aaron Rodgers
7. Eli Manning

That's where I would put quarterbacks of right now, seperated by 'tiers'

Brothgar
10-08-2009, 08:56 PM
Brees as a Top 3 QB - Sniper, Blindsite, the decider and diab so far...

After Brady and Peyton... I'd put Big Ben, Eli, Favre (in no particular order) and then Brees... and I might even put Donovan ahead of Brees... yeah, I will.

I can trust those guys to "make it happen".

Wait you can trust McNabb to ...

dddAi8FF3F4


Thanks Akbar!

Seriously though you can put me down for Brees #3 as well.

Rosebud
10-08-2009, 09:18 PM
Drew Brees is the third best QB in the NFL.

Quoted for ******* truth.

D-Unit
10-08-2009, 09:26 PM
Quoted for ******* truth.
The fact that you all agree, is a testament to why I think he's overrated.

I can't remember a single big game he's won.

Rosebud
10-08-2009, 09:30 PM
The fact that you all agree, is a testament to why I think he's overrated.

I can't remember a single big game he's won.

You do realize that Drew Brees only plays on offense right? And for that matter he only throws the ball and doesn't call plays or run the ball? I mean he may be jesus incarnate but he still can't win every game by himself. I really don't see how his resume is any less impressive than the Peyton years before the colts decided to build some sort of defense, in fact Brees has even had a worse oline and worse talent on offense than those colts.

D-Unit
10-08-2009, 09:36 PM
You do realize that Drew Brees only plays on offense right? And for that matter he only throws the ball and doesn't call plays or run the ball? I mean he may be jesus incarnate but he still can't win every game by himself. I really don't see how his resume is any less impressive than the Peyton years before the colts decided to build some sort of defense, in fact Brees has even had a worse oline and worse talent on offense than those colts.
Meh with the 7 years of excuses.

But I'm enjoying the conversation.

Sniper
10-08-2009, 09:38 PM
Diab, you've fallen for the D-Unit "stir the pot" trick.

Rosebud
10-08-2009, 09:41 PM
Meh with the 7 years of excuses.

But I'm enjoying the conversation.

By that logic the ravens Defense from 2002-2008 was over-rated because how many playoff games have they won?

diabsoule
10-08-2009, 09:41 PM
Diab, you've fallen for the D-Unit "stir the pot" trick.

I knew what I was getting into. I'm done stating my case. He's in the minute minority.

RaiderNation
10-08-2009, 09:43 PM
1a Peyton Manning
1b Tom Brady

3 Drew Brees
4 Big Ben
5 Eli Manning
6 Aaron Rodgers
7 Phillip Rivers
8 Donovan McNabb
9 Brett Favre
10 Jay Cutler

BlindSite
10-08-2009, 09:51 PM
1a Peyton Manning
1b Tom Brady
1c Drew Brees

4 Eli Manning
5 Big Ben
6 Philip Rivers
8 Donovan McNabb
9 Aaron Rogers
10 Jay Cutler
11. Matt Ryan

Brothgar
10-08-2009, 10:35 PM
1a Peyton Manning
1b Tom Brady
1c Drew Brees

4 Eli Manning
5 Big Ben
6 Philip Rivers
8 Donovan McNabb
9 Aaron Rogers
10 Jay Cutler
11. Matt Ryan

1a Peyton Manning
1b Tom Brady

3 Drew Brees
4 Big Ben
5 Eli Manning
6 Aaron Rodgers
7 Phillip Rivers
8 Donovan McNabb
9 Brett Favre
10 Jay Cutler

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_-nshBpf_pmU/SV-kXUSpgdI/AAAAAAAAAMo/QT6LzrZNjaM/s320/kurt-warner.jpg

This guy says HI!

DoughBoy
10-08-2009, 10:37 PM
I have yet to hear anyone actually say Drew Brees is a Top 3 QB. Anyone care to put themselves on that ledge???

Yep, no doubt in mind he is third best.

Shiver
10-08-2009, 11:07 PM
Yep, no doubt in mind he is third best.


I agree with this. Isn't it odd that I, the Falcons fan, am the one standing up for Brees? Saints fans, I expect the same for Matt Ryan in the future. http://draftcountdown.com/forum/images/icons/icon10.gif

Iamcanadian
10-08-2009, 11:19 PM
Actually if we are just talking about this season I would put Brees at #2 so far. I agree that for his career he is hardly a top 3 QB just yet but like Eli showed, that can change if he puts together a whole season and wins the SB.
Anybody IMO who has Aaron Rodgers at #6 is absurd. There is no way he is a top 10 QB just yet. Top 10 QB's are winners at the least and Rodgers has yet to demonstrate he is a winning QB.

BlindSite
10-09-2009, 12:19 AM
Actually if we are just talking about this season I would put Brees at #2 so far. I agree that for his career he is hardly a top 3 QB just yet but like Eli showed, that can change if he puts together a whole season and wins the SB.
Anybody IMO who has Aaron Rodgers at #6 is absurd. There is no way he is a top 10 QB just yet. Top 10 QB's are winners at the least and Rodgers has yet to demonstrate he is a winning QB.

Aw man shut up about "winners" Rogers doesn't lose games, the greenbay defense and offensive line does.

Jesus christ, Winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners

It's old already. Everyone pulls that argument out OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER OVER AND OVER OVER AND OVER OVER AND OVER OVER AND OVER OVER AND OVER OVER AND OVER OVER AND OVER OVER AND OVER OVER AND OVER OVER AND OVER OVER AND OVER OVER AND OVER OVER AND OVER OVER AND OVER OVER AND OVER OVER AND OVER OVER AND OVER OVER AND OVER OVER AND OVER OVER AND OVER OVER AND OVER OVER AND OVER OVER AND OVER OVER AND OVER OVER AND OVER OVER AND OVER OVER AND OVER OVER AND OVER OVER AND OVER OVER AND OVER OVER AND OVER OVER AND OVER OVER AND OVER OVER AND OVER OVER AND OVER OVER AND OVER OVER AND OVER OVER AND OVER OVER AND OVER OVER AND OVER OVER AND OVER OVER AND OVER OVER AND OVER OVER AND OVER OVER AND OVER OVER AND OVER OVER AND OVER OVER AND OVER OVER AND OVER OVER AND OVER OVER AND OVER OVER AND OVER OVER AND OVER OVER AND OVER OVER AND OVER OVER AND OVER OVER AND OVER OVER AND OVER OVER AND OVER OVER AND OVER OVER AND OVER OVER AND OVER OVER AND OVER OVER AND OVER OVER AND OVER OVER AND OVER OVER AND OVER OVER AND OVER

Jake Delhomme has a better winning percentage in the playoffs than Peyton Manning by 25%, does that make him a better quarterback? No way in hell.

D-Unit
10-09-2009, 12:24 AM
If I had one game to win and Brady and Peyton aren't around. I'm not calling for Brees.

BlindSite
10-09-2009, 12:25 AM
If I had one game to win and Brady and Peyton aren't around. I'm not calling for Brees.

Then you'd lose to my team who he'd be quarterbacking.

Giantsfan1080
10-09-2009, 12:31 AM
How was Elway's defense and running game in the years he lost the Super Bowl? This is a real question. I know the 86 Giants dominated the Super Bowl against the Broncos but I'm not sure if they deserved to be there even with the lucky play against the Browns.

MetSox17
10-09-2009, 12:49 AM
Then you'd lose to my team who he'd be quarterbacking.

Not if he's playing Ben Roethlisberger or Philip Rivers. Honestly, for one game i'd take those two guys, and that's cause i ******* hate Roethlisberger.

Rivers is easily the third best quarterback in the league in my eyes.

Shiver
10-09-2009, 12:52 AM
Aw man shut up about "winners" Rogers doesn't lose games, the greenbay defense and offensive line does.

Jesus christ, Winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners

It's old already. Everyone pulls that argument out OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER OVER AND OVER OVER AND OVER OVER AND OVER OVER AND OVER OVER AND OVER OVER AND OVER OVER AND OVER OVER AND OVER OVER AND OVER OVER AND OVER OVER AND OVER OVER AND OVER OVER AND OVER OVER AND OVER OVER AND OVER OVER AND OVER OVER AND OVER OVER AND OVER OVER AND OVER OVER AND OVER OVER AND OVER OVER AND OVER OVER AND OVER OVER AND OVER OVER AND OVER OVER AND OVER OVER AND OVER OVER AND OVER OVER AND OVER OVER AND OVER OVER AND OVER OVER AND OVER OVER AND OVER OVER AND OVER OVER AND OVER OVER AND OVER OVER AND OVER OVER AND OVER OVER AND OVER OVER AND OVER OVER AND OVER OVER AND OVER OVER AND OVER OVER AND OVER OVER AND OVER OVER AND OVER OVER AND OVER OVER AND OVER OVER AND OVER OVER AND OVER OVER AND OVER OVER AND OVER OVER AND OVER OVER AND OVER OVER AND OVER OVER AND OVER OVER AND OVER OVER AND OVER OVER AND OVER OVER AND OVER OVER AND OVER OVER AND OVER OVER AND OVER OVER AND OVER OVER AND OVER OVER AND OVER OVER AND OVER OVER AND OVER

Jake Delhomme has a better winning percentage in the playoffs than Peyton Manning by 25%, does that make him a better quarterback? No way in hell.

And mate....

MetSox17
10-09-2009, 12:56 AM
And mate....

No, not mate.

Give me the best playoff win percentages with guys that have a minimum of 10 starts, and i guarantee you they're all good to great quarterbacks.

Giantsfan1080
10-09-2009, 01:07 AM
No, not mate.

Give me the best playoff win percentages with guys that have a minimum of 10 starts, and i guarantee you they're all good to great quarterbacks.

Good luck finding that. I just tried but nothing. Very interesting to see what it would be.

Shiver
10-09-2009, 01:07 AM
No, not mate.

Give me the best playoff win percentages with guys that have a minimum of 10 starts, and i guarantee you they're all good to great quarterbacks.


Playoff football is a lot different, it can make great QBs (Marino, Manning for the most part) look very average. The game is just different for some reason. It seems to negatively impact the prolific passers more than others.

Giantsfan1080
10-09-2009, 01:10 AM
Playoff football is a lot different, it can make great QBs (Marino, Manning for the most part) look very average. The game is just different for some reason. It seems to negatively impact the prolific passers more than others.

I don't like that reasoning at all. That's just a blanket statement.

MetSox17
10-09-2009, 01:14 AM
Good luck finding that. I just tried but nothing. Very interesting to see what it would be.

Yeah, i'm not a huge stat guy so i don't know all those websites to find them. But i know that Tom Brady is up there at number one i think, and Troy Aikman is number two. Both HOF QBs.

Giantsfan1080
10-09-2009, 01:15 AM
Yeah, i'm not a huge stat guy so i don't know all those websites to find them. But i know that Tom Brady is up there at number one i think, and Troy Aikman is number two. Both HOF QBs.

I just started looking at some game logs for HOF QB's and it's a mixed bag. Marino was excellent but man he had some pretty bad playoff games.

BlindSite
10-09-2009, 01:26 AM
I don't like that reasoning at all. That's just a blanket statement.

It's up there with "find me the numbers"

Quarterbacks are like the drivers in racing teams, yes their individual skill is exceedingly important, but without that car being ready, or being good enough surrounding them even the best driver isn't going to win races.

It takes both and drew brees isn't in a perfect situation and hasn't been for the last few years in New Orleans, but he's inherently been pretty close to perfect.



If you want to take the argument and say "brees hasn't won enough to be considered that good" then tell me right now, what he could've done differently over the years, then perform how he has to change the outcome of the losses for his team?

Giantsfan1080
10-09-2009, 01:28 AM
It's up there with "find me the numbers"

Quarterbacks are like the drivers in racing teams, yes their individual skill is exceedingly important, but without that car being ready, or being good enough surrounding them even the best driver isn't going to win races.

It takes both and drew brees isn't in a perfect situation and hasn't been for the last few years in New Orleans, but he's inherently been pretty close to perfect.



If you want to take the argument and say "brees hasn't won enough to be considered that good" then tell me right now, what he could've done differently over the years, then perform how he has to change the outcome of the losses for his team?

I'm not arguing for or against Brees but the statement you made had no basis at all for anything. Try to give some explanation for why you think that.

MetSox17
10-09-2009, 01:48 AM
I just started looking at some game logs for HOF QB's and it's a mixed bag. Marino was excellent but man he had some pretty bad playoff games.

But for the most part, if you win games, you're good. Yes or no? I don't want the Jake Delhomme percentage cause he has played in how many playoff games? 5?

Giantsfan1080
10-09-2009, 01:53 AM
But for the most part, if you win games, you're good. Yes or no? I don't want the Jake Delhomme percentage cause he has played in how many playoff games? 5?

Yes I agree with you there also. You're the one that hates Eli even though he wins. :D

Saints-Tigers
10-09-2009, 01:59 AM
Brees has 1 playoff win in 7 years.

How many wins does Demarcus Ware have? Massively overrated, dude can't even win a playoff game, what a joke he is, all the talent on Dallas, and he can't get a win, and he's in a system that inflates his sacks by letting him do what he does best, and rush the passer.

He's lame.

But seriously, what's with the Cowboy fans and the Brees hate? lol, I don't understand how that happened.

I think even most of San Diego fans would admit Brees is better than Rivers, though they would still Keep Philip I'm sure, but he's easily 3rd and above Brees? lolol.

lurn 2 no football

MetSox17
10-09-2009, 02:14 AM
Brees has 1 playoff win in 7 years.

How many wins does Demarcus Ware have? Massively overrated, dude can't even win a playoff game, what a joke he is, all the talent on Dallas, and he can't get a win, and he's in a system that inflates his sacks by letting him do what he does best, and rush the passer.

He's lame.

But seriously, what's with the Cowboy fans and the Brees hate? lol, I don't understand how that happened.

I think even most of San Diego fans would admit Brees is better than Rivers, though they would still Keep Philip I'm sure, but he's easily 3rd and above Brees? lolol.

lurn 2 no football

This is by far the dumbest thing i've read on here in a while. Horrible analogy.

And what the hell does me being a Cowboys fan have anything at all to do with the conversation at hand? I'm not even saying Brees sucks. I'm saying i think Rivers is better. Which he is.

Yes I agree with you there also. You're the one that hates Eli even though he wins. :D

I have to hate Eli. He's a Giant. Hah, but on a serious note, i respect him as a player, he has obviously turned it around this season and is playing at a top notch level year round, not just for two minutes at the end of games. I still don't think he deserves to to be the highest paid QB in the league though.

Saints-Tigers
10-09-2009, 02:23 AM
Why is it dumb? D-Unit is saying Brees is overrated because he has only won 1 playoff game, and I'm just asking, what does that say about someone like DeMarcus Ware?

Of course it's dumb, that was the whole point, that whole premise is dumb.

I just think it's funny that cowboy fans are the only wants calling Brees overrated, and I can't figure out why, maybe it's because he's from Texas? Is it because he drummed the Cowboys last time we played?

It's a weird phenomena, it's not like me hating the Falcons, it really has no basis, but Cowboys seem to flock to the Brees hate.

I think the history of overrated Cowboy players has distorted the fanbases ability to figure out who is overrated.

Hines
10-09-2009, 02:24 AM
If I had one game to win and Brady and Peyton aren't around. I'm not calling for Brees.

I'd be calling Big Ben.

MetSox17
10-09-2009, 02:40 AM
Why is it dumb? D-Unit is saying Brees is overrated because he has only won 1 playoff game, and I'm just asking, what does that say about someone like DeMarcus Ware?

Of course it's dumb, that was the whole point, that whole premise is dumb.

I just think it's funny that cowboy fans are the only wants calling Brees overrated, and I can't figure out why, maybe it's because he's from Texas? Is it because he drummed the Cowboys last time we played?

It's a weird phenomena, it's not like me hating the Falcons, it really has no basis, but Cowboys seem to flock to the Brees hate.

I think the history of overrated Cowboy players has distorted the fanbases ability to figure out who is overrated.

You're comparing a LB to a QB. That's the ******** part. Not the fact that Ware hasn't won a playoff game. You've created a strawman. The ********* strawman i've ever seen, actually. He's missing all his limbs. That was the worst counter argument i've read in a long time on here. The worst part is that you're actually serious.

And why do you keep saying that i'm calling Brees overrated? Not only are you making inane rebuttals, but you're putting words in my mouth and can't read for ****. Again, my being a Cowboys fan has absolutely nothing to do with what i was discussing, but it's a very common crutch for people that have absolutely no knowledge whatsoever on the game. The only reason i don't tell you what i really think about you is because there's rules preventing it on here. But honestly, you're embarrassing your fanbase.

And anyone else notice how all these Saints fans are now all high and mighty around here? Where were they last year? No where to be found.. They start 4-0 and now they think the whole world owes them something. LOL. You, Saints 4 Lyfe and Diabsoule are getting really ridiculous.

Rosebud
10-09-2009, 02:45 AM
You calling Rivers better than Brees is an argument for the fact that he is over-rated as he's generally excepted to be third best QB in the league a notch below Brady and Peyton, but a healthy notch above anyone else. I tend to agree with that assessment and regret dearly that has he been strapped down by terrible defenses and Shaun Payton's garbage play calling.

Saints-Tigers
10-09-2009, 02:54 AM
So only QB's should be judged by playoff wins, and other guys should be judged on some other basis?

I'm not high and mighty, I'm not sold on our team at all, the only person that I truly trust is Brees though.

Still taking shots at the Saints though? Last year we were nowhere to be found, and the Cowboys were right there with us.

I don't get it, maybe if a good team's fans were calling the Saints fans out, but really, the Cowboys? You're telling us we're insignificant and can't talk(which I'm not anyway).

I'm making my fan base look bad because I (and seemingly everyone but a small few cowboys fans) think Drew Brees is the 3rd best QB in the league?

Find my ridiculous statement about the Saints please, you said I'm getting ridiculous because the Saints are 4-0 and I think the world owes me something, so I want to find what outlandish statement I've made.

I think the only prediction I've made so far is that the Saints are going to smack the Cowboys around when they play them.

So please, forgetting everything else I've said, because the rebuttal doesn't matter, find these "ridiculous" claims I've made, and show them to me, and you can use anything I've said about them thus far this season, or in the time period we have been 4-0. I'll be waiting.

MetSox17
10-09-2009, 03:04 AM
So only QB's should be judged by playoff wins, and other guys should be judged on some other basis?

When the time comes, Quarterbacks have the most control on the success of the team. Like leading the team on a late drive to score. Or keeping the defense off the field. Really, ask around and poll people on who they think has a bigger impact towards the success of their team. A QB or a OLB.

I'm not high and mighty, I'm not sold on our team at all, the only person that I truly trust is Brees though.

Still taking shots at the Saints though? Last year we were nowhere to be found, and the Cowboys were right there with us.

I don't get it, maybe if a good team's fans were calling the Saints fans out, but really, the Cowboys? You're telling us we're insignificant and can't talk(which I'm not anyway).
Again, how the hell is any of this relevant?

I'm making my fan base look bad because I (and seemingly everyone but a small few cowboys fans) think Drew Brees is the 3rd best QB in the league?
You're making your fanbase look bad because you're whining that some people don't think Drew Brees is the third best quarterback in the league. Why does that bother you so much?

Find my ridiculous statement about the Saints please, you said I'm getting ridiculous because the Saints are 4-0 and I think the world owes me something, so I want to find what outlandish statement I've made.

You think the world owes Drew Brees the label of third best quarterback in the league when he has done nothing to show that he is by far the third best quarterback like you're making it out to be

I think the only prediction I've made so far is that the Saints are going to smack the Cowboys around when they play them.

So please, forgetting everything else I've said, because the rebuttal doesn't matter, find these "ridiculous" claims I've made, and show them to me, and you can use anything I've said about them thus far this season, or in the time period we have been 4-0. I'll be waiting.

Your Drew Brees suck fest is what i was pointing out. The rest was aimed mostly at Diabsoule and other fans that think the Saints actually have a good defense and are the best team in the NFL





Responses in bold.

Saints-Tigers
10-09-2009, 03:55 AM
He isn't owed the 3rd best label, there are many ways to define the greatness of a QB, and Ben has 2 rings already.

There just isn't any basis for him to be below Rivers, not statistically, not accolades, not team success, not playoff success.... nothing really.

Apparently my Brees suckfest is more than just me, because I'm not the only one here that thinks he's the third best, apparently most everyone does, so it's a national suckfest, it isn't unique to me!

Our defense is pretty good though, our OLBs suck ass, but our corners are good stuff, and we can get a heck of a pass rush with only 3 or 4, and it's making Darren Sharper look like a DPOY.

Bah screw it, Drew Brees>anything on Dallas, and our defense>Dallas D

YEA!!!

NY+Giants=NYG
10-09-2009, 08:14 AM
This whole conversation is like comparing apples to oranges. It's really hard if not impossible to compare two QBs who are on different teams. They are all in different systems, designed and controlled by different OCs. Not only that the personnel are different. If you really want to go into detail, because the OCs are different, you're going to get different call sheets which in turn effects the play calling. Yes, in the end the players play the same position, but the variables are very different for those QBs.

Drew Brees is a very good QB, but I like to give the credit to Cam Cameron for doing something that made Brees all of a sudden get it. Put him in a passing system for two different teams, and you can see results. I don't think he is over rated, or avg in any way. He is a good player, in a good system, with good offensive coaches, put in a situation where he can thrive in.

cjjr72984
10-09-2009, 09:06 AM
Lol @ this guy D-Unit saying Drew Brees is overrated. I've heard it all now.

Giantsfan1080
10-09-2009, 11:15 AM
This is by far the dumbest thing i've read on here in a while. Horrible analogy.

And what the hell does me being a Cowboys fan have anything at all to do with the conversation at hand? I'm not even saying Brees sucks. I'm saying i think Rivers is better. Which he is.



I have to hate Eli. He's a Giant. Hah, but on a serious note, i respect him as a player, he has obviously turned it around this season and is playing at a top notch level year round, not just for two minutes at the end of games. I still don't think he deserves to to be the highest paid QB in the league though.

That's fair. I totally understand that.

D-Unit
10-09-2009, 12:49 PM
Lol @ this guy D-Unit saying Drew Brees is overrated. I've heard it all now.
LOL at this being your first post.

Welcome to the forum. You can expect me to go against the grain a lot more in the future, if you stick around. That's what I like to do. I like to show different sides of the story. Being different doesn't bother me. I enjoy the conversations, even if other people get hostile. It just makes it that much more enjoyable. ;)

D-Unit
10-09-2009, 12:55 PM
He isn't owed the 3rd best label, there are many ways to define the greatness of a QB, and Ben has 2 rings already.

There just isn't any basis for him to be below Rivers, not statistically, not accolades, not team success, not playoff success.... nothing really.

Apparently my Brees suckfest is more than just me, because I'm not the only one here that thinks he's the third best, apparently most everyone does, so it's a national suckfest, it isn't unique to me!

Our defense is pretty good though, our OLBs suck ass, but our corners are good stuff, and we can get a heck of a pass rush with only 3 or 4, and it's making Darren Sharper look like a DPOY.

Bah screw it, Drew Brees>anything on Dallas, and our defense>Dallas D

YEA!!!
I like to debate with you because you get so riled up. Love the passion. So kudos to you.

But really, you're spinning it the wrong way if you're trying to draw a connection between me being a Cowboys fan meaning anything about Brees. It has nothing to do with that. It simply has everything to do with Brees being overrated in my mind.

Secondly, my point about his 1 playoff win in 7 years is not the single and only reason why I think he's overrated... you make it sound like that's the only case I have against him. That's untrue.

Lastly, now that you're feeling like the Saints finally have a defense, maybe finally, him having a bad defense will no longer be an excuse for him not leading his team to more wins. So I will remember to bring this thread back up later in the season to see how he has been able to fare.

D-Unit
10-09-2009, 12:57 PM
I'd be calling Big Ben.
Notice how nobody is arguing against that call. ;)

Hines
10-09-2009, 02:12 PM
Notice how nobody is arguing against that call. ;)

Because outside of Peyton and Brady, there is no other clutch qbs in the league that can win it in the clutch like Big Ben does.

RAVENS/WIZARDS/ORIOLES
10-09-2009, 02:16 PM
Because outside of Peyton and Brady, there is no other clutch qbs in the league that can win it in the clutch like Big Ben does.

Big Ben is like the Robert Horry of football. He can not be the best but still singlehandedly win games.

Hines
10-09-2009, 02:20 PM
Big Ben is like the Robert Horry of football. He can not be the best but still singlehandedly win games.

Honestly, if I had to chose a QB not named Peyton Manning or Tom Brady, Big Ben would get my first call. I don't care that he doesn't put up big stats every season. I want my quarterback to win and come up big in clutch situations. Big Ben does that. I don't understand how people think he is overrated when he does this year in and year out with a not so good offensive line. Yes, I did put Big Ben as the third best quarterback in the league.

wordofi
10-09-2009, 02:24 PM
I think some NFL players have jealousy issues.

RAVENS/WIZARDS/ORIOLES
10-09-2009, 02:38 PM
Honestly, if I had to chose a QB not named Peyton Manning or Tom Brady, Big Ben would get my first call. I don't care that he doesn't put up big stats every season. I want my quarterback to win and come up big in clutch situations. Big Ben does that. I don't understand how people think he is overrated when he does this year in and year out with a not so good offensive line. Yes, I did put Big Ben as the third best quarterback in the league.

How is he the 3rd best? I mean he is clutch but you have to have more than that to be considered the best. Would I take him over alot of QB's in a playoff game? Yes. I just think Brady/Manning/Brees/Rivers are all better than him overall.

Hines
10-09-2009, 02:43 PM
How is he the 3rd best? I mean he is clutch but you have to have more than that to be considered the best. Would I take him over alot of QB's in a playoff game? Yes. I just think Brady/Manning/Brees/Rivers are all better than him overall.

I should've clarified myself more. I consider Brees, Rivers, and Big Ben 3a, b, and c respectively. All Big Ben does is win. I want my quarterback to win and not fold under the pressure.

NY+Giants=NYG
10-09-2009, 02:45 PM
I should've clarified myself more. I consider Brees, Rivers, and Big Ben 3a, b, and c respectively. All Big Ben does is win. I want my quarterback to win and not fold under the pressure.

Every fan wants their QB to win and not fold under pressure. But I agree, Ben does win, and even to his own credit so does Orton. I was thinking about that as he and Denver beat the Cowboys. Guy gets a lot of flack but he does win games.

nrk
10-09-2009, 03:14 PM
I should've clarified myself more. I consider Brees, Rivers, and Big Ben 3a, b, and c respectively. All Big Ben does is win. I want my quarterback to win and not fold under the pressure.

Yeah, Big Ben gets no help from his D. He just carries them on his back down the field along with his 10 other offensive starters.

I love Big Ben, but I'd take Brees over him.

djp
10-09-2009, 03:17 PM
Every fan wants their QB to win and not fold under pressure. But I agree, Ben does win, and even to his own credit so does Orton. I was thinking about that as he and Denver beat the Cowboys. Guy gets a lot of flack but he does win games.

When did you change your name? lol

RAVENS/WIZARDS/ORIOLES
10-09-2009, 03:17 PM
I would take Big Ben in a playoff game but if it wasn't for that defense he wouldn't have those 2 rings.

nrk
10-09-2009, 03:20 PM
Every fan wants their QB to win and not fold under pressure. But I agree, Ben does win, and even to his own credit so does Orton. I was thinking about that as he and Denver beat the Cowboys. Guy gets a lot of flack but he does win games.

Brandon Marshall gets the credit for that victory more so than Orton. Marshall made a huge play.

D-Unit
10-09-2009, 03:22 PM
Every fan wants their QB to win and not fold under pressure. But I agree, Ben does win, and even to his own credit so does Orton. I was thinking about that as he and Denver beat the Cowboys. Guy gets a lot of flack but he does win games.
I don't know how Orton can be credited for that win. He threw a desperation pass to Marshall who ran it in for a late TD that was like a 30 yard run after catch.

Then Romo marched it right down and couldn't punch it in. Romo and the Cowboys lost the game, more than Orton "won it".

But back to the thread... Hines is right. Big Ben is clutch and that's more important to me than a guy like Brees who isn't. Over the years, Brees has thrown some of the dummest INTs... especially in the red zone.

nrk
10-09-2009, 03:28 PM
I don't know how Orton can be credited for that win. He threw a desperation pass to Marshall who ran it in for a late TD that was like a 30 yard run after catch.

Then Romo marched it right down and couldn't punch it in. Romo and the Cowboys lost the game, more than Orton "won it".

But back to the thread... Hines is right. Big Ben is clutch and that's more important to me than a guy like Brees who isn't. Over the years, Brees has thrown some of the dummest INTs... especially in the red zone.

Yeah that pass to Marshall could have easily been an INT. The Bronco's D needs to get a mention. They played well.

RAVENS/WIZARDS/ORIOLES
10-09-2009, 03:33 PM
Yea we all agree Big Ben is clutch but IMO he isn't the better QB

BlindSite
10-09-2009, 04:13 PM
So no one wants to come play my game?

No one wants to tell me exactly what Brees could've done better in his team's losses all this time? No one wants to explain how Brees could've won the games his team lost.

I didn't think so.

D-Unit
10-09-2009, 04:33 PM
So no one wants to come play my game?

No one wants to tell me exactly what Brees could've done better in his team's losses all this time? No one wants to explain how Brees could've won the games his team lost.

I didn't think so.
You mean you want us to recall history from the last 7 years of his career and pin point the reasons? Yeah, that's a reasonable request. LMAO.

Fact is he gets excused for everything because his teammates weren't good enough.

RAVENS/WIZARDS/ORIOLES
10-09-2009, 04:42 PM
I feel like Brees could be a little overrated because if you look at Manning being in the same situation and they won 10+ games every year for a long time now.

Saints-Tigers
10-09-2009, 04:49 PM
I love you too D, we could have some real good debates, I mean, I'm always right, but I'm sure you could put up a good argument without getting your feelings hurt too :P

The Cowboys thing has no bearing, just that the two staunchest supporters of Brees not being the number 3 QB are Cowboys fans, and I was screwing around trying to draw parallels.

He doesn't get excused for everything though, if that were the case, we'd be calling him the best QB in the league.

Thing is though, he's a different player than he was in San Diego, his arm is stronger post-surgery.

Quick question though, and I'll preface it by saying the team is tailored to fit Drew Brees at this point, but why do so many say he's in a system that inflates his numbers?

The offensive line protection isn't elite, it's very good, but Brees getting the ball out quick, and sliding around is what makes it look so good in the stat sheet.

We don't have any real YAC receivers, other than Bush, so it's not like the underneath throws are being exploited (like Wes Welker) to pump his completion % and yards per pass.

He makes a high amount of throws downfield that most of the league can't make on a consistent basis.

He's in an offense that is willing to let him throw, he plays in a dome, but after that, it's not out of this world weapons to work with. Even when fully healthy, we don't have a super dominant receiving threat, we just have really good depth.

For a while last year he was lighting it up with just Lance Moore and Billy Miller, because everyone else was hurt.

I just don't think the system thing works here, unless people are going to come out and say Reggie Bush is the reason, because he is the only receiver we really throw to underneath and let him make the yards himself, everything else is a precision pass that most QBs wouldn't be able to make on a consistent basis.

When I think of the "system" helping a guy, I think of it as, if you plug just about any QB into the Saints offense, his numbers are going to rise, and I honestly think everyone but a small handful of guys would struggle trying to run the Saints offense.

Another question though, what if the Saints did win the super bowl this year, would that mean he was good enough all along, and his teammates really were holding him back? I'm not into that logic personally, but some people need to see a ring to validate a player.

I feel like Brees could be a little overrated because if you look at Manning being in the same situation and they won 10+ games every year for a long time now.

How is that comparable? Are you saying we were just as talented as the Colts? They had better lines, the Edge for a while, and Peyton's second best receiver was better than anyone on our whole team.....

D-Unit
10-09-2009, 04:59 PM
The only reason I chose to criticize Brees is because most people think he's #3 and I don't. Don't get me wrong. He's developed into a very good QB, but I like others better. Including the guy who this thread was initially about. Brett Favre.

diabsoule
10-09-2009, 05:49 PM
How is that comparable? Are you saying we were just as talented as the Colts? They had better lines, the Edge for a while, and Peyton's second best receiver was better than anyone on our whole team.....

They didn't have the guitar player from U2. They had Edge as in Edgerrin James.

CC.SD
10-09-2009, 06:37 PM
Brees has 1 playoff win in 7 years.

How many wins does Demarcus Ware have? Massively overrated, dude can't even win a playoff game, what a joke he is, all the talent on Dallas, and he can't get a win, and he's in a system that inflates his sacks by letting him do what he does best, and rush the passer.

He's lame.

But seriously, what's with the Cowboy fans and the Brees hate? lol, I don't understand how that happened.

I think even most of San Diego fans would admit Brees is better than Rivers, though they would still Keep Philip I'm sure, but he's easily 3rd and above Brees? lolol.

lurn 2 no football


Well since you asked...

I love Drew but I think your statements conflict. Wouldn't swap Rivers for Brees (or anyone else) under basically any scenario, so it's tough to turn that into admitting Breesy is better. That said, you can't go wrong either way.

Saints-Tigers
10-09-2009, 06:52 PM
I don't think they conflict, Rivers is younger, has no real injury history to his throwing shoulder, and he's already elite.

You said you wouldn't swap him for anyone, but you don't think he's better than Peyton either?

I'd be happy with either guy, but if you had to take one for this season, who do you think is better? Just curious.

CC.SD
10-09-2009, 07:21 PM
I don't think they conflict, Rivers is younger, has no real injury history to his throwing shoulder, and he's already elite.

You said you wouldn't swap him for anyone, but you don't think he's better than Peyton either?

I'd be happy with either guy, but if you had to take one for this season, who do you think is better? Just curious.

Depends on the team, system. If I had to take one for just this season, I assume you mean on the bolts, and in that case it would definitely be Rivers. There's no arguing against Peyton in most cases, and I freely admit he's better (no swap=age related, plus a subtle eyebrow raise at Peyton's playoff career) but given how terrible the team around Rivers has been playing, I'll take him to play the mad bomber role.

NY+Giants=NYG
10-09-2009, 09:02 PM
I don't know how Orton can be credited for that win. He threw a desperation pass to Marshall who ran it in for a late TD that was like a 30 yard run after catch.

Then Romo marched it right down and couldn't punch it in. Romo and the Cowboys lost the game, more than Orton "won it".

But back to the thread... Hines is right. Big Ben is clutch and that's more important to me than a guy like Brees who isn't. Over the years, Brees has thrown some of the dummest INTs... especially in the red zone.

Of course he gets credit, he made the throw and Marshall did the rest. That's what a team does. It could be worse.. He could have thrown an int, pick 6, held the ball too long, or made a bad read resulting in another outcome. That's the whole point. He just wins. That's called a team win.

As for Romo, that's pretty on par with him. I wasn't expecting him to score. But I have to admit, I thought you guys would run that QB draw you ran against us in the redzone.

Rosebud
10-09-2009, 09:32 PM
Because outside of Peyton and Brady, there is no other clutch qbs in the league that can win it in the clutch like Big Ben does.

Eli the man drives for a game winning, game tying or lead changing score late in almost every game against a quality opponent.

diabsoule
10-09-2009, 09:33 PM
I don't know how Orton can be credited for that win. He threw a desperation pass to Marshall who ran it in for a late TD that was like a 30 yard run after catch.

Then Romo marched it right down and couldn't punch it in. Romo and the Cowboys lost the game, more than Orton "won it".

Of course he gets credit, he made the throw and Marshall did the rest. That's what a team does. It could be worse.. He could have thrown an int, pick 6, held the ball too long, or made a bad read resulting in another outcome. That's the whole point. He just wins. That's called a team win.

As for Romo, that's pretty on par with him. I wasn't expecting him to score. But I have to admit, I thought you guys would run that QB draw you ran against us in the redzone.

A QBs job is to win. ...and THAT is how they are all measured. Fair or not.

Just thought that quote could help justify Orton. He threw the ball to Marshall so that he could make the play, which he did being the play maker he is, so he gets the win.

Iamcanadian
10-09-2009, 09:42 PM
Aw man shut up about "winners" Rogers doesn't lose games, the greenbay defense and offensive line does.

Jesus christ, Winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners winners

It's old already. Everyone pulls that argument out OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER OVER AND OVER OVER AND OVER OVER AND OVER OVER AND OVER OVER AND OVER OVER AND OVER OVER AND OVER OVER AND OVER OVER AND OVER OVER AND OVER OVER AND OVER OVER AND OVER OVER AND OVER OVER AND OVER OVER AND OVER OVER AND OVER OVER AND OVER OVER AND OVER OVER AND OVER OVER AND OVER OVER AND OVER OVER AND OVER OVER AND OVER OVER AND OVER OVER AND OVER OVER AND OVER OVER AND OVER OVER AND OVER OVER AND OVER OVER AND OVER OVER AND OVER OVER AND OVER OVER AND OVER OVER AND OVER OVER AND OVER OVER AND OVER OVER AND OVER OVER AND OVER OVER AND OVER OVER AND OVER OVER AND OVER OVER AND OVER OVER AND OVER OVER AND OVER OVER AND OVER OVER AND OVER OVER AND OVER OVER AND OVER OVER AND OVER OVER AND OVER OVER AND OVER OVER AND OVER OVER AND OVER OVER AND OVER OVER AND OVER OVER AND OVER OVER AND OVER OVER AND OVER OVER AND OVER OVER AND OVER OVER AND OVER OVER AND OVER OVER AND OVER OVER AND OVER OVER AND OVER OVER AND OVER OVER AND OVER OVER AND OVER

Jake Delhomme has a better winning percentage in the playoffs than Peyton Manning by 25%, does that make him a better quarterback? No way in hell.

You can post ridiculous stuff all you want but it doesn't change the fact that winning is the name of the game in pro sports and stats are for losers. As for Peyton, if he didn't win the Super Bowl, we would all still be questioning his performance in big games but he did WIN one and that put to rest his place in football history. People who know sports bring out this old argument over and over because it is a legitimate argument unlike your post which shows no intelligence.

NY+Giants=NYG
10-09-2009, 10:03 PM
Just thought that quote could help justify Orton. He threw the ball to Marshall so that he could make the play, which he did being the play maker he is, so he gets the win.

That's what a team does. Your QB tries to get the ball to your playmaker, and he can do the rest. He did that, and Marshall did his part. Props to both of them in contributing and getting that win.

D-Unit
10-09-2009, 10:05 PM
That's what a team does. Your QB tries to get the ball to your playmaker, and he can do the rest. He did that, and Marshall did his part. Props to both of them in contributing and getting that win.
Meh. Orton is still a bottom tier QB in my mind, even if you guys think otherwise.

Those types of QBs are "bus drivers".

No bus driver QB in my mind will ever be a top QB.

diabsoule
10-09-2009, 10:27 PM
Meh. Orton is still a bottom tier QB in my mind, even if you guys think otherwise.

Those types of QBs are "bus drivers".

No bus driver QB in my mind will ever be a top QB.

I think Orton is a middle of the pack QB. I just used your logic to prop up Orton since a QBs job is to win which is what Orton does.

Rosebud
10-09-2009, 10:37 PM
I think Orton is a middle of the pack QB. I just used your logic to prop up Orton since a QBs job is to win which is what Orton does.

He just. wins. games.

NY+Giants=NYG
10-09-2009, 11:17 PM
Meh. Orton is still a bottom tier QB in my mind, even if you guys think otherwise.

Those types of QBs are "bus drivers".

No bus driver QB in my mind will ever be a top QB.

That's one heck of a bus he is driving then. If he just wins, which he does, as a coach, that's who I want on my team. What else can you ask for? The guy just goes out there, and makes plays and wins games. May not be the most accurate, or strong armed QB. He may not have the best measurables in the league either, but at the end of the day, he wins games. As a coach, that's who I want. If I ever plan on being an OC either at the college or HS ranks, give me a QB like that at any level, who wins games, and I will be very happy.

Iamcanadian
10-10-2009, 06:43 AM
I think Orton is a middle of the pack QB. I just used your logic to prop up Orton since a QBs job is to win which is what Orton does.

As long as Orton continues to win games you have to give him the credit he deserves, he is certainly so far an excellent game manager. However I'm not yet certain his winning ways will continue and am not at all sold on Denver continuing to win. Remember the Redskins last year under their rookie HC who started 5-0 then collapsed. The only knock so far on Orton is his teams don't advance into serious contention for the SB.

BlindSite
10-10-2009, 07:10 AM
You can post ridiculous stuff all you want but it doesn't change the fact that winning is the name of the game in pro sports and stats are for losers. As for Peyton, if he didn't win the Super Bowl, we would all still be questioning his performance in big games but he did WIN one and that put to rest his place in football history. People who know sports bring out this old argument over and over because it is a legitimate argument unlike your post which shows no intelligence.

Its not people who "know sports" who bring out this argument, it's people who don't understand how a team works.

As I have pointed out time and time again there is little difference between what Brady, Manning, Brees, Warner or whomever else are capable of achieving in their own ability, it's the ability of those around them that will ultimately decide the fate of their team.

If you "know sports" so brilliantly, then please, try and point out, what Brees has done specifically, to prevent his team from making the playoffs and or winning a superbowl. What exactly makes Brees "not a winner". Stats are for losers, then fine. Don't use any in your argument.

SenorGato
10-10-2009, 09:15 AM
Meh. Orton is still a bottom tier QB in my mind, even if you guys think otherwise.

Those types of QBs are "bus drivers".

No bus driver QB in my mind will ever be a top QB.

Joe Montana was kind of a bus drive QB. I like to think of QB's as offensive facilitators that get to hog all/most of the credit.

NY+Giants=NYG
10-10-2009, 09:57 AM
Joe Montana was kind of a bus drive QB. I like to think of QB's as offensive facilitators that get to hog all/most of the credit.

LOL. Montana was in one of the best offensive systems created. Great QB who just won games as well. I am not a stat guy, I want the QB who wins. Be it Kyle freaking Orton or Tom Brady. Yeah if I had a choice I obviously go Brady, but if both can win me games, then as a offensive coach, I am not complaining.

D-Unit
10-10-2009, 11:32 AM
4-0 as a QB doesn't make Orton one of those QBs that "just win". I need more consistency. I count this but nothing but a fast start. He hasn't beaten a good team yet.

...and I love the passion about the QBs job "winning"... something Brees has failed to do thus far in his career.

But he's 4-0 now... WATCH OUT PEOPLEZZZZZZ... DREW BREEEZZZZZzzzZZZ!!!!

D-Unit
10-10-2009, 11:33 AM
As long as Orton continues to win games you have to give him the credit he deserves, he is certainly so far an excellent game manager. However I'm not yet certain his winning ways will continue and am not at all sold on Denver continuing to win. Remember the Redskins last year under their rookie HC who started 5-0 then collapsed. The only knock so far on Orton is his teams don't advance into serious contention for the SB.
So far "this season". I'll give him credit for being a 4-0 QB in 2009. Nothing more.

D-Unit
10-10-2009, 11:33 AM
Joe Montana was kind of a bus drive QB. I like to think of QB's as offensive facilitators that get to hog all/most of the credit.

Just stop right there Mr. Montana was FAR from a "Bus Driver" QB. Let's make that clear off the bat.

Rosebud
10-10-2009, 12:33 PM
4-0 as a QB doesn't make Orton one of those QBs that "just win". I need more consistency. I count this but nothing but a fast start. He hasn't beaten a good team yet.

...and I love the passion about the QBs job "winning"... something Brees has failed to do thus far in his career.

But he's 4-0 now... WATCH OUT PEOPLEZZZZZZ... DREW BREEEZZZZZzzzZZZ!!!!

Orton has a career record of 25-12 so yeah, he does just win games.

D-Unit
10-10-2009, 12:41 PM
Orton has a career record of 25-12 so yeah, he does just win games.
Wow. I didn't realize that. Good mention. I'm not afraid to admit he might be better than I thought. ...which was one of the bottom tier QBs in the league. There's still at least 20 other QBs I'd rather have.

NY+Giants=NYG
10-10-2009, 12:43 PM
4-0 as a QB doesn't make Orton one of those QBs that "just win". I need more consistency. I count this but nothing but a fast start. He hasn't beaten a good team yet.

...and I love the passion about the QBs job "winning"... something Brees has failed to do thus far in his career.

But he's 4-0 now... WATCH OUT PEOPLEZZZZZZ... DREW BREEEZZZZZzzzZZZ!!!!

I am sure he will try to be consistent. Fast start is what all people in the game want. No one wants a slow start obviously. And you play who your scheduled to play. This is not college where your AD throws in couple 1-AA schools as fodder. The teams he won, were on his schedule, and he did what any coach wants. Just win against those teams.

Plus not only that he has a lot pressure from those fans because of the situation he walked himself in. He has handled that well, and won on top of it.

I am by no means saying he is an elite QB, but he wins, and at the end of the day I want that from my QB.

General Zod
10-10-2009, 12:45 PM
Please do not bring in Golden Joe into a thread with the word overrated in the title.

How can you deny this man? Just look at that smile. :-)

http://www.bpsd.org/IMS/Tech_Ed/8th%20Grade/Webpages_06-07/1st-9wks/pd1/hyde.zachery/images/joe-montana.jpg

NY+Giants=NYG
10-10-2009, 12:47 PM
Wow. I didn't realize that. Good mention. I'm not afraid to admit he might be better than I thought. ...which was one of the bottom tier QBs in the league. There's still at least 20 other QBs I'd rather have.

That's what I am talking about. Call it what you might, from Bus driver to whatever. He is driving where ever I want to go as a fan or as a coach. As far as 20 other QBs, in the NFL franchise QBs are hard to find and hard to develop. So if someone like Orton comes along and does his thing, and wins, so be it. I'll take him ALONG with the 20 other QBs that are better.

Saints-Tigers
10-10-2009, 04:39 PM
It isn't even about being 4-0, people didn't just propel Brees to the upper echelon of QBs on his play this season suddenly.

Some people are capable of watching a guy play and saying "wow, he's damn good" instead of checking the box score and seeing if the team won or loss, and drawing all conclusions from that.

tjsunstein
10-10-2009, 05:12 PM
What's even being debated anymore? I feel like there are six different conversations going on.

Rosebud
10-10-2009, 05:34 PM
What's even being debated anymore? I feel like there are six different conversations going on.

Kyle Orton's position amongst the elite QBs in the league, One side feels he's above Brady but below Peyton and the other side feels he's the bestest QB everzzz. He just. wins. games.

sweetness34
10-10-2009, 06:34 PM
Orton wins games because he has a defense that is currently giving up less than 10 points per game. I watched him against Dallas and he missed most of his throws down the field and had two passes go through the hands of Dallas defenders.

Orton is a solid QB. But to say that he "just wins games" is jaded. He does win, with the benefit of having a studly defense and a run game.

Denver would be a Super Bowl contender with Cutler as their QB this year.

BlindSite
10-10-2009, 06:48 PM
Orton wins games because he has a defense that is currently giving up less than 10 points per game. I watched him against Dallas and he missed most of his throws down the field and had two passes go through the hands of Dallas defenders.

Orton is a solid QB. But to say that he "just wins games" is jaded. He does win, with the benefit of having a studly defense and a run game.

Denver would be a Super Bowl contender with Cutler as their QB this year.

According to Iamcanadian you don't know sports, only the QB can win games, not defense.

NY+Giants=NYG
10-10-2009, 07:59 PM
Orton wins games because he has a defense that is currently giving up less than 10 points per game. I watched him against Dallas and he missed most of his throws down the field and had two passes go through the hands of Dallas defenders.

Orton is a solid QB. But to say that he "just wins games" is jaded. He does win, with the benefit of having a studly defense and a run game.

Denver would be a Super Bowl contender with Cutler as their QB this year.

That's the whole part of the team element of this sport. Yeah, Orton does win games, but obviously he has to have some kind of support from the other 2 phases of the game. If he was in a situation where he was a good, and the other parts of the team stunk, he would be Archie Manning. That is why this is the best sport out there in my opinion. You can be good, but you truly do need your teammates if you want to win as a team.

D-Unit
10-10-2009, 08:11 PM
Orton wins games because he has a defense that is currently giving up less than 10 points per game. I watched him against Dallas and he missed most of his throws down the field and had two passes go through the hands of Dallas defenders.

Orton is a solid QB. But to say that he "just wins games" is jaded. He does win, with the benefit of having a studly defense and a run game.

Denver would be a Super Bowl contender with Cutler as their QB this year.
That's a great point. I think anyone who actually watches Orton play, will come away feeling the same thing.

Rosebud
10-10-2009, 08:14 PM
That's a great point. I think anyone who actually watches Orton play, will come away feeling the same thing.

My point was never that Orton was a better than average QB, it was that he, despite being a mediocre starter, has a great record and winning percentage. So doing I was hoping to illustrate how important the other parts of a team can be to end result. Hoping that might make you realize that Drew Brees doesn't lose games but the New Orleans saints do, and the New Orleans saints have had a terrible defense for as long as he has been there.

sweetness34
10-10-2009, 08:52 PM
My point was never that Orton was a better than average QB, it was that he, despite being a mediocre starter, has a great record and winning percentage. So doing I was hoping to illustrate how important the other parts of a team can be to end result. Hoping that might make you realize that Drew Brees doesn't lose games but the New Orleans saints do, and the New Orleans saints have had a terrible defense for as long as he has been there.

But it doesn't make him a great QB. Just as Drew Brees' record shouldn't take away from his ability as a QB. If he had a defense in New Orleans (he might have one this year) the Saints would be beastly.

Manning couldn't do it without a defense. Brady couldn't do it without a defense. Any QB who wins has to have help on the other side of the ball (and special teams as well).

This is the reason why saying Jay Cutler isn't a good QB because of his winning percentage is a **** argument. As is Kyle Orton's a very good QB because all he does is win games. You have to look at the situation around the QB before you pass judgment.

The Bears would be looking at 1-3 or possibly 0-4 without Cutler. Orton would be 1-3 or 0-4 without lady luck (the immaculate deflection) and the currently the best defense in the game.

BlindSite
10-10-2009, 09:00 PM
Plummer had a record of 41-22 including postseason with Denver, that alone should be testament to just how far a good team can take a less than perfect QB.

MichaelJordanEberle (sabf)
10-10-2009, 09:20 PM
Denver would be a Super Bowl contender with Cutler as their QB this year.

I hate you.

MichaelJordanEberle (sabf)
10-10-2009, 09:24 PM
Plummer had a record of 41-22 including postseason with Denver, that alone should be testament to just how far a good team can take a less than perfect QB.

The 2006 Broncos are a great example of that. Plummer started off 7-2 that year. And the defense was absolutely marvelous. Even at that point though, he was playing so badly that people were calling for Cutler. After the 7-2 start, the defense fell off the face of the earth. Cutler was subbed in 2 games later and the offense vastly improved, but the defense never got back. The Broncos, with a rookie Jay Cutler scored 7 points more per game than with Jake Plummer. But the defense was allowing something ridiculous(I forget the total numbers, i think 14 or thereabouts) more in the last 7 games than in the first 9. Also keep in mind, some people like to suggest Cutler sparked the poor finish, but the defense's troubles started a full two games before he even played.

BlindSite
10-10-2009, 09:53 PM
Exactly my point, teams win because of good team play. QB's are a huge part of it, they're the water of the human body, but they're not the only contributing factor to victories or success and shouldn't be judged on their ability solely on their teams success.

diabsoule
10-10-2009, 10:34 PM
What's even being debated anymore? I feel like there are six different conversations going on.

D-Unit was saying how Drew Brees is overrated and not a top 3 QB. Then it moved to Orton and how he's better than mediocre.

Iamcanadian
10-10-2009, 11:19 PM
Its not people who "know sports" who bring out this argument, it's people who don't understand how a team works.

As I have pointed out time and time again there is little difference between what Brady, Manning, Brees, Warner or whomever else are capable of achieving in their own ability, it's the ability of those around them that will ultimately decide the fate of their team.

If you "know sports" so brilliantly, then please, try and point out, what Brees has done specifically, to prevent his team from making the playoffs and or winning a superbowl. What exactly makes Brees "not a winner". Stats are for losers, then fine. Don't use any in your argument.

I have been picking New Orleans to make the playoffs for a couple of years now so I like Brees but the QB is the team leader and when the going gets tough they have to produce if they are a playoff caliber QB. So far Brees has failed to lead New Orleans anywhere, maybe this year will be different but it is too early to tell.
Peyton hardly plays for a talented team. His LT is average at best and his defense is sub par but somehow he gets the job done and Indy is in the playoffs every year. The great QB's may not always have the talent to win the SB, but they are practically in the playoffs every year barring injuries. Look at Palmer, this is the 1st time in 3 years that he has been healthy and suddenly the sad sack Cincy is making a playoff run. Where are Brees's playoff runs??? His teams have usually been non winners and that just doesn't happen to great QB's every year.
IMO, until Brees can consistently make a strong playoff run every year, I won't include him on my list of franchise QB's because by my definition a franchise QB = making the playoff on a consistent basis. That is why Brady, Peyton and a few others make my current list of franchise QB's and Brees remain on the outside. Sorry if it upsets you. If it makes you feel better I'm not a fan of Marino either. Stats aren't my measure of a great QB.

scottyboy
10-10-2009, 11:20 PM
Mike Teel> Kyle Orton

BlindSite
10-11-2009, 12:18 AM
I have been picking New Orleans to make the playoffs for a couple of years now so I like Brees but the QB is the team leader and when the going gets tough they have to produce if they are a playoff caliber QB. So far Brees has failed to lead New Orleans anywhere, maybe this year will be different but it is too early to tell.

He lead them to an NFC title game and divisional crown not all that long ago.


Peyton hardly plays for a talented team. His LT is average at best and his defense is sub par but somehow he gets the job done and Indy is in the playoffs every year. The great QB's may not always have the talent to win the SB, but they are practically in the playoffs every year barring injuries. Look at Palmer, this is the 1st time in 3 years that he has been healthy and suddenly the sad sack Cincy is making a playoff run. Where are Brees's playoff runs??? His teams have usually been non winners and that just doesn't happen to great QB's every year.

You do realise indianapolis hasn't had a bad defense for nearly 5 seasons now.

This year 13th over all New Orleans 9th
2008 11th new Orleans 23rd
2007 3rd new orleans 26th
2006 11th (SB victory) New Orleans 14th (NFC CG)

Every year Peyton has had a defense in the top half of the league he's made the playoffs, the year where his defense was the most talented, though not statistically, they won a superbowl.

Notice the other correlation, New Orleans is bad for two seasons, look where the defense ranks, it picks it up for 2 years and they go to one game shy of the superbowl and race to an early division lead.

There is a direct, quantifiable relationship between the defensive performance of a Drew Brees lead saints team and how far that team goes. Unless you want to refute clear, undeniable, patterns with more crap like "i know footballsz"


IMO, until Brees can consistently make a strong playoff run every year, I won't include him on my list of franchise QB's because by my definition a franchise QB = making the playoff on a consistent basis. That is why Brady, Peyton and a few others make my current list of franchise QB's and Brees remain on the outside. Sorry if it upsets you. If it makes you feel better I'm not a fan of Marino either. Stats aren't my measure of a great QB.

I don't care about marino, he's not from my era of following football.

You want to crap on about Brady, well lets put it to my stats are for losers argument:

09 7th overall
08 10th overall (no brady, no playoffs, but still a winning record)
07 4th overall SB appearance
06 6th overall
05 26th overall early exit from the playoffs
04 9th overall SB win
03 7th overall SB win

There's a direct correlation between how successful quarterbacks are in a team setting with how good their defense is.

Stat's are for losers lol!

Apparently they show your argument has no bearing.

diabsoule
10-11-2009, 01:50 AM
He lead them to an NFC title game and divisional crown not all that long ago.



You do realise Indianapolis hasn't had a bad defense for nearly 5 seasons now.

This year 13th over all New Orleans 9th
2008 11th New Orleans 23rd
2007 3rd New Orleans 26th
2006 11th (SB victory) New Orleans 14th (NFC CG)


Drew Brees while in San Diego.

2002 (w/ SD) - 24th rated defense (32nd in passing/11th rushing)
2003 (w/ SD) - 27st rated defense (21st in passing/25th in rushing)
2004 (w/ SD) - 18th rated defense (31st in passing/3rd in rushing)
2005 (w/ SD) - 13th rated defense (28th in passing/1st in rushing)

Weapons Brees had on offense while with San Diego:

WR David Boston (2003)
WR Kennan McCardell (2004-2005)
WR Tim Dwight (2001-2004)
WR Curtis Conway (2002)
WR Kassim Osgood (2003-2005)
WR Eric Parker (2003-2005)
WR Reche Caldwell (2002-2005)
RB LDT
TE Stephen Alexander (2002)
TE Antonio Gates (2003 - rookie year)

2003 - Doug Flutie started six games for the Chargers during the middle of the season and went 2-4. Statistically 2003 was the worst year for Brees and a terrible year for the Chargers in general.

General Zod
10-11-2009, 02:30 AM
I like french fries. I think Wendys has the best french fries. I think McDonalds fries are a bit overrated.



Sorry, in this thread the comment fits. :-P

MichaelJordanEberle (sabf)
10-11-2009, 05:13 PM
If you look at the stats, Brees certainly, at the very least, has an argument for the top QB in the NFL. But even his fans won't place him higher than 3rd(unless they're talking "the way Tom Brady is playing" rather than the way we know Tom Brady can play). I fail to see how that makes him overrated. Also with the "his team hasn't done anything" argument doesn't work when you use examples like Peyton Manning, because everyone knows Peyton Manning is better than Drew Brees, and is one of the best QBs to ever play the game(could retire as the absolute best). If people were saying Brees is way better than Peyton, then yeah, use that argument all you want. But I haven't seen any QBs who aren't regarded as better than Drew Brees get their team anywhere without a solid D and running game(both of which he appears to have this year, which makes the Saints a true contender).