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View Full Version : Amobi Okoye wil be a BUc


Bucs4242
03-10-2007, 03:50 PM
I dont know if it will be at #4 overall, or somewhere else in the top 10 but I have this feeling. There's too many bad scenarios involving either JT or CJ not making it to the BUcs pick. Now Im starting to get the feeling that maybe Tampa would pass on one of these guys, moreso CJ than JT. DT is definitely this teams #1 need right now after FA. Its not smart to draft for need, but I think Okoye will be a Buc one way or another

But here's to Tampa drafting Joe Thomas

Beans
03-10-2007, 03:53 PM
I've been saying this for a while. Either CJ or Amobi will be in Tampa come June.

Caddy
03-10-2007, 04:26 PM
Thanks for the info Bruce

Bucs4242
03-10-2007, 05:04 PM
No prob Mr Australia ; )

Just some friendly speculation.

Personally I would rather have Gaines Adams if we are going DL, but just an educated guess I am making about the draft. I have a feeling about Okoye

etk
03-10-2007, 06:52 PM
I dont know if it will be at #4 overall, or somewhere else in the top 10 but I have this feeling. There's too many bad scenarios involving either JT or CJ not making it to the BUcs pick. Now Im starting to get the feeling that maybe Tampa would pass on one of these guys, moreso CJ than JT. DT is definitely this teams #1 need right now after FA. Its not smart to draft for need, but I think Okoye will be a Buc one way or another

But here's to Tampa drafting Joe Thomas

We will not pass on CJ, but we will pass on Joe Thomas after the way our FA has gone. LT is not a vital position in our offense with Simms as QB, and Petitgout & Davis are a competent duo. Trueblood needs a backup though and we will address that on Day 2. I agree with Beans about CJ or Okoye, those are really the only 2 players I see us drafting in the 1st.

Tampa 2 4 life
03-10-2007, 07:14 PM
No prob Mr Australia ; )

Just some friendly speculation.

Personally I would rather have Gaines Adams if we are going DL, but just an educated guess I am making about the draft. I have a feeling about Okoye

Okoye's upside is superhigh. We have a guy who might be on the top of his game for 15 years barring injury. I think that alone puts him over Adams.

Caddy
03-10-2007, 10:14 PM
We will not pass on CJ, but we will pass on Joe Thomas after the way our FA has gone. LT is not a vital position in our offense with Simms as QB, and Petitgout & Davis are a competent duo. Trueblood needs a backup though and we will address that on Day 2. I agree with Beans about CJ or Okoye, those are really the only 2 players I see us drafting in the 1st.

You really don't see Gaines Adams being a real possibility along with Quinn? I think all 4 have a legitimate shot at being selected by the Buccaneers. Hell, throw Joe Thomas in too because Petitgout can play guard as well and franchise tackles are hard to come by.

Calvin Johnson
Joe Thomas
Amobi Okoye
Brady Quinn
Gaines Adams

One of those men will be a Buc, which one is anyones guess. It is going to be very interesting come draft day.

etk
03-10-2007, 11:44 PM
Gaines Adams won't be a Buc because if we take him, we will be taking him over Okoye, and that will not happen because Okoye is a bigger need and we like him better. That's the right pick because Gaines Adams will not be the multidemsional DE that we normally like. We like our defensive ends to be guys that stop the run like Carter/Spires. Rice is the exception but we signed him as a proven pass rusher and I don't even think our coaches like him that much anyway. We can't go into the season without a good pass rusher at UT, and CJ would be the only reasonable excuse not to draft one. Mebane/Harrell won't cut it. We can add a pass rusher at DE in the 2nd, hopefully Charles Johnson.

Once again, there is no chance we are taking Quinn this year. We have Simms/Garcia/Gradkowski & McCown as our roster, and those are the guys who we are sticking with this year. We are not going to take a QB and ignore other needs because we will have to get rid of one of those guys, and it would probably be Simms and it's just not a move that teams ever make. It's all just fantasy for you guys, it's not logical front office football. We won't be drafting a QB at all, we have the 4 guys needed for "Gruden Camp", but there is no doubt that if Simms doesn't perform we will draft someone next year. Brohm and Brennan would both fit well in our offense, and I'm sure Gruden would love a guy like Brennan.

Caddy
03-10-2007, 11:54 PM
Gaines Adams won't be a Buc because if we take him, we will be taking him over Okoye, and that will not happen because Okoye is a bigger need and we like him better. That's the right pick because Gaines Adams will not be the multidemsional DE that we normally like. We like our defensive ends to be guys that stop the run like Carter/Spires. Rice is the exception but we signed him as a proven pass rusher and I don't even think our coaches like him that much anyway. We can't go into the season without a good pass rusher at UT, and CJ would be the only reasonable excuse not to draft one. Mebane/Harrell won't cut it. We can add a pass rusher at DE in the 2nd, hopefully Charles Johnson.

Once again, there is no chance we are taking Quinn this year. We have Simms/Garcia/Gradkowski & McCown as our roster, and those are the guys who we are sticking with this year. We are not going to take a QB and ignore other needs because we will have to get rid of one of those guys, and it would probably be Simms and it's just not a move that teams ever make. It's all just fantasy for you guys, it's not logical front office football. We won't be drafting a QB at all, we have the 4 guys needed for "Gruden Camp", but there is no doubt that if Simms doesn't perform we will draft someone next year. Brohm and Brennan would both fit well in our offense, and I'm sure Gruden would love a guy like Brennan.

It is all well and good to have an opinion, which is clearly what you are doing. I was simply pointing out the players that are most likely to end up as Buccaneers. When you are the person selecting the players you can tell me who we are going to take, untill then we could take anyone from Jamarcus Russell to Reggie Ball.

etk
03-11-2007, 12:03 AM
Of course we can, but from a logical team perspective the only guys we will draft are CJ or Okoye. There is a possibility for Adams/Anderson too, I'm just praying that we take Okoye instead. The only way we take anyone else is if we absolutely love them and have them rated way higher than other other positions of greater need. That could be the case with Joe Thomas, but once again it is unlikely that we will take him, and even if we do and he is a good player it would be a poor decision and we would regret not addressing our woeful aging defensive line. The great thing about our offensive line is that it's young. Chris Simms is young. Joey Galloway isn't and Clayton cannot be our #1 target, CJ would make sense. 2 straight bad seasons and I lost faith in Clayton, Simms has only had one, there is no need to panic and draft Quinn.

Caddy
03-11-2007, 12:06 AM
I would hope that if we cannot get Calvin Johnson, we do everything we can to trade down and nab the best D-Lineman available whether that be Anderson, Adams or Okoye. Possibly even Landry.

etk
03-11-2007, 12:12 AM
Landry would fall under that "has to be rated super-high category", but having him on our defense would be pretty exciting. Our best chance for trading down would be with Joe Thomas available, to the Miami Dolphins. They need a LT badly, and they would leapfrog the Cards and take him. We would be in a perfect spot to take Okoye. That scenario would be almost as good as straight-up getting CJ.

Caddy
03-11-2007, 12:38 AM
Even just trying to trade down from #4 to #5 is a possibility if we can convince the Cardinals we want Thomas. They probably wouldn't buy it but you never know could happen.

Caddy
03-11-2007, 12:39 AM
Oh and did you know somebody on the pewterreport forums is using the same sig as you.. Just thought i'd let you know even though it is kind of irrelevant.

etk
03-11-2007, 12:40 AM
You might wanna edit that first sentence. It's 1:40 AM ET here so if it's that late for you I wouldn't blame you for the mental typo.

etk
03-11-2007, 12:41 AM
Oh and did you know somebody on the pewterreport forums is using the same sig as you.. Just thought i'd let you know even though it is kind of irrelevant.

Those filthy bastards, darnik probably just posted his sigs there, but it's worth investigating. I'm going undercover, or you might say I'm going down under :D

Edit: What is his name I can't find the thief

Caddy
03-11-2007, 12:54 AM
You might wanna edit that first sentence. It's 1:40 AM ET here so if it's that late for you I wouldn't blame you for the mental typo.

Yeh I better edit that now..Its only 6pm so its not as if i should make a mistake like that

Caddy
03-11-2007, 12:56 AM
Those filthy bastards, darnik probably just posted his sigs there, but it's worth investigating. I'm going undercover, or you might say I'm going down under :D

Edit: What is his name I can't find the thief

It used to be the guy called Fresh but he changed his sig. He had your sig yesterday so it must be a recent change

etk
03-11-2007, 12:58 AM
It used to be the guy called Fresh but he changed his sig. He had your sig yesterday so it must be a recent change

HAHA I noticed that guy because he stole a Cadillac sig from footballs future. That man has problems.

Caddy
03-11-2007, 01:00 AM
HAHA I noticed that guy because he stole a Cadillac sig from footballs future. That man has problems.

Notice how another of our threads has gone way off topic again :). I'll take responsibility for this one though

Merlin
03-11-2007, 03:46 AM
It is all well and good to have an opinion, which is clearly what you are doing. I was simply pointing out the players that are most likely to end up as Buccaneers. When you are the person selecting the players you can tell me who we are going to take, untill then we could take anyone from Jamarcus Russell to Reggie Ball.Bump!

1a - CJ
1b - Quinn
I'm finding it difficult to choose? CJ is obviously an incredable talent, but looking at the current situation, to allow Quinn to sit behind Garcia for a year, would IMO, be the perfect synario for the future of our franchise.

3 - Thomas, who we could then possibly use as trade bait to trade down for more picks?

The three above are who I would pick using our #4 over all in the 1st.

If we traded down.

4 - Okoye
5 - Adams
6 - Landry
7 - Brown
8 - Anderson

ETK:
"Gaines Adams won't be a Buc because if we take him, we will be taking him over Okoye, and that will not happen because Okoye is a bigger need and we like him better. That's the right pick because Gaines Adams will not be the multidemsional DE that we normally like. We like our defensive ends to be guys that stop the run like Carter/Spires. Rice is the exception but we signed him as a proven pass rusher and I don't even think our coaches like him that much anyway". END

While I would agree to pick Okoye before Adams, I can't agree with your interpritation of the DE's in our Tampa 2.

Obviously every DE in the NFL needs to have a "minimum" of run stopping ability, hell they wouldn't be in the lge if they didn't!
But the Tampa 2 needs to have DE's who can pass rush first, look at Dungy, he has Dwight Freeney and Robert Mathis.

The whole system is based around the amount of pressure we can put on opposing QB's with our front-four, allowing our LB's the freedom to drop, rather than blitz, especially the MLB, who needs to be able to play a middle deep third.

IMO, Okoye has the ability to play both UT and DE

Why do you think our coaches don't like Rice?

Caddy
03-11-2007, 04:23 AM
IMO, Okoye has the ability to play both UT and DE



Sorry to say, but saying this kind of contradicts your definition of a Cover 2 DE> Okoye is not fast enough to play DT, whereas at UT he could be a dominant force as speed isn't as much of an issue.

Merlin
03-11-2007, 04:35 AM
Sorry to say, but saying this kind of contradicts your definition of a Cover 2 DE> Okoye is not fast enough to play DT, whereas at UT he could be a dominant force as speed isn't as much of an issue.Hmm...looking at his times from the combine you may have a point, though at 19, I believe he could develop into a "switch-hitter", e.g. newly acquired Kevin Carter.

Caddy
03-11-2007, 04:40 AM
There is no doubting his athleticism but I think if we drafted him we just try and develop him into the next Tommie Harris, the prototypical Cover 2 DT

Merlin
03-11-2007, 04:52 AM
There is no doubting his athleticism but I think if we drafted him we just try and develop him into the next Tommie Harris, the prototypical Cover 2 DTI'd be more than happy with that ;- )

etk
03-11-2007, 11:57 AM
I wasn't speaking from a Cover 2 perspective....cover 2 teams need their defensive ends to generate pressure without blitzing on a 4-man rush. Our DEs are nothing like the Colts and that's why we have been so highly ranking in defense up until last year. I think we will continue that trend and draft more 2-dimensional DEs, like Crowder or Abiamiri in Round 2, or Baraka Atkins later on. Jamaal Anderson would make a bit of sense, but he's not as stout as a Spires or White, and that is the type of DE we like to have opposite Rice. If we draft Adams it will be as Rice's replacement, in which case I pray to god he exceeds my expectations, because I don't see him as a consistent double-digit sack guy like Rice.

Merlin
03-11-2007, 02:32 PM
I wasn't speaking from a Cover 2 perspective....cover 2 teams need their defensive ends to generate pressure without blitzing on a 4-man rush. Our DEs are nothing like the Colts and that's why we have been so highly ranking in defense up until last year. I think we will continue that trend and draft more 2-dimensional DEs, like Crowder or Abiamiri in Round 2, or Baraka Atkins later on. Jamaal Anderson would make a bit of sense, but he's not as stout as a Spires or White, and that is the type of DE we like to have opposite Rice. If we draft Adams it will be as Rice's replacement, in which case I pray to god he exceeds my expectations, because I don't see him as a consistent double-digit sack guy like Rice.Sorry!, I don't agree at all!

A "Tampa 2" rely's on front-four pressure which is why we also have a need for a UT and OT, we play a "Tampa 2"!

Part of the reason for our defensive success has been the players in those positions, Warren Sapp and S.Rice.
Last year our prodution dropped of the chart in comparisons to other years, partly due to our offensive struggles, but more importantly because we could not generate any kind of pressure on opposing QB's, no surprise when you consider that Rice played injured untill being pulled for the season.

I love your choice of Tim Crowder, he is vastly underated and his combine results prove what a great athelete he is, he has alot of untapped potential IMO.

I'm an Irish fan, and to be honest, I have to say Abiamiri is as over-rated as they come, if we trade down, Jarvis Moss would be an excellent choice, he might need to bulk up a bit though, having said that Okoye would probably get the nod.

Bucs4242
03-11-2007, 03:16 PM
We will not pass on CJ, but we will pass on Joe Thomas after the way our FA has gone. LT is not a vital position in our offense with Simms as QB, and Petitgout & Davis are a competent duo. Trueblood needs a backup though and we will address that on Day 2. I agree with Beans about CJ or Okoye, those are really the only 2 players I see us drafting in the 1st.

Have you ever seen Joe Thomas play?

1) Joe Thomas is better than any OL the BUcs have had in 30 years

2) LT is an important positioon in any offense, because normally the best pass rusher on the field is lined up at RDE.

3) WR are not a vital positio non this team because Gruden is capable of putting anybody in position to have 80 catches. Gruden could sign the towel boy at WR and draw up schemes to put him into psoition to make plays. SO really, if anything, a suitable LT is far harder to find in Grudens offense than a WR

Jeff82
03-11-2007, 04:27 PM
1. You don't pass up a talent like Calvin Johnson if he is there at #4. You just don't do it. Players like that are rare and special.

2. Brady Quinn = No. Like others mentioned guys like Brohm, Henne, Brennan, Woodson, Keller, and Booty will be out there next year.

3. The Bucs still need OL help, and Joe Thomas is a great LT. Like Bucs4242 said, no matter what offense you're in a LT is huge part of it (lefty or not). I wouldn't take him over CJ, but if CJ is gone and he is there at 4 you have to give him a look.

4. Gaines Adams IS perfect for a Tampa 2 defense. I'm glad Merlin pointed out that a Tampa 2 defense needs speed rush ends first, but it also needs a guy like Okoye. It requires athletes on the front four. If the front four doesn't get pressure then the defense is immediately making up for that and it hurts them. The thing that made the bucs defense great was it's speed and how well they flew to the ball. That is a part of the Tampa 2.

etk
03-11-2007, 04:37 PM
Have you ever seen Joe Thomas play?

1) Joe Thomas is better than any OL the BUcs have had in 30 years

2) LT is an important positioon in any offense, because normally the best pass rusher on the field is lined up at RDE.

3) WR are not a vital positio non this team because Gruden is capable of putting anybody in position to have 80 catches. Gruden could sign the towel boy at WR and draw up schemes to put him into psoition to make plays. SO really, if anything, a suitable LT is far harder to find in Grudens offense than a WR

We have all learnt from the past two seasons that that statement is completely false and Gruden cannot do that, only Mike Martz can. It is important for us to take advantage of any oppurtunity to add a steal at WR with any of our picks, but it's only worth it if the value is present like CJ in 1 or Meachem in 2.

Joe Thomas is far better than any OT the Bucs have ever had, that statement is true, but it is only the 2nd most important OL position on our team, and it is not worth using a top 4 pick on with a lefty QB, especially when you have a young prospect and a veteran signing there already. We took a Joseph in Round 1 last year and Trueblood in Round 2 last year, we have 2 LTs and we have Buenning at LG, so all we need is a C. At all other OL positions we have young talent. That is why we will not draft Thomas, and D'Brick is a better prospect IMO anyway.

etk
03-11-2007, 04:41 PM
To Merlin: When we won a Super Bowl, we did it with Spires & Rice at DE, and Sapp & McFarland at DT. Spires is not a speed rusher, therefore we don't need 2 speed rushers to run our defense. We like to have one speed rusher and one run stuffing 2-dimensional end. I don't think we should draft Adams because Rice has not retired yet and when healthy, he is our speed rusher. We can wait a year because the DE class next year will be far superior, and in the meantime we can add that Spires replacement in a guy like Crowder or Atkins depending on what other players are available.

Booger
03-11-2007, 05:01 PM
etk, what is your deal with not drafting Okoye because we have Carter, not drafting Adams because we have Rice, and not drafting Thomas because we have Petitgout???

Rice and Carter are well into their 30's, and Petitgout is 30+ and coming off a broken leg. If Joe Thomas is available, he should be a Buccaneer. Petitgout can play LG (also a big need for the Bucs with Buenning's injury).

etk
03-11-2007, 05:17 PM
My deal is that we draft CJ and then address all of our other positions later. You just mentioned all those names because they are our starters. If we have starters at the mentioned positions, then we should focus on drafting a player that will have an early impact for us with our first rounder.

We have to have a plan B for CJ of course.....

It would be Gaines Adams or Jamaal Anderson, because DE is our position of highest immediate need for drafting right now, and those guys have enough value for the top 10. We still have not signed a DE, which leaves us with injury-prone Rice, Spires who is old and bent, and Jenkins who is nothing more than a young backup. Now try telling me that we need a 19 year old UT more than a DE, when we have Carter and Wyms at UT and they will do just fine for the moment. We need a pass rush....DE bring pass rush, not a 19 year old UT.

CJ is the only player worth taking in spite of our need for a DE. It will hurt to have to wait to get a DE, but CJ is worth it. Joe Thomas is not the same kind of prospect, and despite what many of you think, he is not as important of a position or as big of a need.

Once again:

1. CJ
2a. Anderson
2b. Adams

That's it! It may be controversial, but that's the direction we need to take with our first rounder. Taking Okoye will sacrifice our offense and pass rush. Taking Thomas will sacrifice some decent linemen and our pass rush. Taking Quinn sacrifices everything, so I won't even get started.

Jeff82
03-11-2007, 05:21 PM
I agree...

Go with CJ first and if he is gone then go with Gaines Adams. I would give reasons but i'm too busy watching the selection show.

Beans
03-11-2007, 05:23 PM
Personally I think the board should look like this:

CJ
Amobi
Thomas
Adams

Booger
03-11-2007, 06:53 PM
Once again:

1. CJ
2a. Anderson
2b. Adams

That's it! It may be controversial, but that's the direction we need to take with our first rounder. Taking Okoye will sacrifice our offense and pass rush. Taking Thomas will sacrifice some decent linemen and our pass rush. Taking Quinn sacrifices everything, so I won't even get started.

I dont think that you should draft a 1st round pick based on how big of an immediate impact they will have, which is part of your argument for CJ. Maybe for a contending team, but the Bucs are a few years away from being a real contender.

As our DL currently sits, I can understand why you have Carter at UT, and are placing DE as our most pressing need. But with Okoye, Carter/Wyms can easily play as rotating DEs/DTs. In saying that, I would never draft Okoye over CJ, but in the likely scenario that CJ and JT are gone, I believe that Okoye deserves a long look.

Joe Thomas is #1 on my draft board and I will tell you why.

CJ is a luxury item, who improves your WR corps, and marginally improves the play of the QB and the running game.

JT is a luxury item and a necessity, and would have a much greater impact on the improvement of the QB play and the running attack. Given time in the pocket, the receiving corps of Galloway, Clayton, Smith, Hilliard, and Stovall is more than adequate.

A LT makes an impact on every play, a WR does not. In my opinion, it all starts in the trenches, and you dont pass on the opportunity to take a franchise LT.

If JT and CJ are both on the board, I feel that JT is the no-brainer selection. But in all honesty, I would be thrilled if either were still available at our #4 selection.

Jeff82
03-11-2007, 07:13 PM
I like your reasoning on the draft situation with CJ and JT, I may disagree with it, but you make good points. I personally think that in the second round we could go with a Tim Crowder and then a Joe Staley or a James Marten (have two BC tackles). We have plenty of options with our picks in day one. I agree that CJ is a sudden impact player, but he is more than that as well. He will give Tampa a top tier receiver for years to come. He is a GREAT kid, hard worker, very humble, and obviously a tremendous receiver.

I think with regards to the defensive end slot, we can address that early in the second round or even with our last pick in the second with a Tim Crowder, Baraka Atkins, or Charles Johnson.

My list of guys I like in the first round are...

1. Calvin Johnson

then Joe Thomas and Gaines Adams

If we were to trade down (which I don't like) then I would like

Amobie Okoye or Laron Landry

Caddy
03-11-2007, 10:18 PM
I like your reasoning on the draft situation with CJ and JT, I may disagree with it, but you make good points. I personally think that in the second round we could go with a Tim Crowder and then a Joe Staley or a James Marten (have two BC tackles). We have plenty of options with our picks in day one. I agree that CJ is a sudden impact player, but he is more than that as well. He will give Tampa a top tier receiver for years to come. He is a GREAT kid, hard worker, very humble, and obviously a tremendous receiver.

I think with regards to the defensive end slot, we can address that early in the second round or even with our last pick in the second with a Tim Crowder, Baraka Atkins, or Charles Johnson.

My list of guys I like in the first round are...

1. Calvin Johnson

then Joe Thomas and Gaines Adams

If we were to trade down (which I don't like) then I would like

Amobie Okoye or Laron Landry


Welcome to the boards Jeff. I agree with your list of prospects and think that the Buccaneers should draft:

1. CJ - No need for explanation
2. JT - Every team needs a franchise LT
3. GA - May not be as well rounded as Anderson but is the prototypical Cover 2 DE.


Joe Staley in the 2nd would be good, however I don't see how he would be that much of an upgrade over what we already have, unlike Joe Thomas who is franchise tackle material. James Marten is a RT and won't go till the 2nd.

Charles Johnson will be gone by pick 2B, Crowder might be around and Atkins is not even worth a 3rd, let alone a 2nd.

etk
03-11-2007, 10:24 PM
Yeah I named Atkins early on because he fits our system very well, but I hope no one thought that meant he would get drafted any higher than the 3rd round.

Merlin
03-12-2007, 02:45 AM
where's the delete button? I messed up!

Merlin
03-12-2007, 02:49 AM
1. You don't pass up a talent like Calvin Johnson if he is there at #4. You just don't do it. Players like that are rare and special.

2. Brady Quinn = No. Like others mentioned guys like Brohm, Henne, Brennan, Woodson, Keller, and Booty will be out there next year.

3. The Bucs still need OL help, and Joe Thomas is a great LT. Like Bucs4242 said, no matter what offense you're in a LT is huge part of it (lefty or not). I wouldn't take him over CJ, but if CJ is gone and he is there at 4 you have to give him a look.

4. Gaines Adams IS perfect for a Tampa 2 defense. I'm glad Merlin pointed out that a Tampa 2 defense needs speed rush ends first, but it also needs a guy like Okoye. It requires athletes on the front four. If the front four doesn't get pressure then the defense is immediately making up for that and it hurts them. The thing that made the bucs defense great was it's speed and how well they flew to the ball. That is a part of the Tampa 2.

1. I agree completelty

2. IMO, the QB's you have mentioned will not be able to hold a candle to Brady Quinn in the years to come, I can't think of a more Pro ready QB to come out of college since......? well, you get my point, I know people won't agree with me, and I know we could post a thousand reasons, for and against the argument, lets not!
No one is going to prove one way or the other, at least not untill it is all said and done.

One point I would make though, is that Garcia and Simms are on two year contracts, Garcia due to age, and Simms due to...? (we'll leave that to Allen and Gru) my point is, IF we had a chance and picked Quinn, he would have a whole season to learn the complexitys of Grudens offense, and IF, Gruden gets an extended contract (fingers crossed) Quinn would be in great shape for the following season, or at worst, he'd get some NFL seasoning ready for his new HC (possibly) and at least be able to compete for the starting role.

3. Looking at your reasoning concerning the QB's, couldn't the same reasoning be used with our O-line?
I would still pick Thomas if CJ and Quinn are gone, but I may use him to trade down for extra picks, e.g SD Chargers and Eli Manning,....it's an option?

Merlin
03-12-2007, 03:17 AM
To Merlin: When we won a Super Bowl, we did it with Spires & Rice at DE, and Sapp & McFarland at DT. Spires is not a speed rusher, therefore we don't need 2 speed rushers to run our defense. We like to have one speed rusher and one run stuffing 2-dimensional end. I don't think we should draft Adams because Rice has not retired yet and when healthy, he is our speed rusher. We can wait a year because the DE class next year will be far superior, and in the meantime we can add that Spires replacement in a guy like Crowder or Atkins depending on what other players are available.
While I understand the point your trying to make, using your reasoning, every team we played against, should have run the ball at Rice, and pass/roll out's, against Spires.

Now both you and I know, that is/was, not the case, every DE/DT needs a mixture of both, Rice is in the last year of his contract, and at 36?, he's going to lose a step, (if he hasn't already) will Tampa want, or be able to resign him? (cap etc)

You yourself, then went on to say in a later post, Quote: "It would be Gaines Adams or Jamaal Anderson, because DE is our position of highest immediate need for drafting right now, which leaves us with injury-prone Rice, Spires who is old and bent, and Jenkins who is nothing more than a young backup."!

I'm confused? can we wait a year or not!

As for next years DE class, who would you rate as Superior, and how do you, or I know, if we'll be in a position to Draft them?

Caddy
03-12-2007, 03:21 AM
Come on Merlin, Simeon will only be 33 for the entire 07 season. His 33rd birthday was only 2 weeks ago.

Merlin
03-12-2007, 03:24 AM
As for my Tampa "big board".

If we stay at #4

1a - CJ
1b - B Quinn
3 - Joe Thomas (possible trade bait?)

If we trade down in round 1

Okoye
Adams
Moss
Anderson
Landry

Merlin
03-12-2007, 03:25 AM
Come on Merlin, Simeon will only be 33 for the entire 07 season. His 33rd birthday was only 2 weeks ago.
oops!...I did put a question mark...lols

Mind you, that might even make it harder for us to resign him, especially with all the silly money being thrown around?
!?!

Caddy
03-12-2007, 03:44 AM
oops!...I did put a question mark...lols

Mind you, that might even make it harder for us to resign him, especially with all the silly money being thrown around?
!?!

I don't expect Simeon back after his contract expires. Somebody will probably throw him a relatively large 1-2 year deal that the Buccaneers won't want to match. Either way the Bucs need to draft a replacement this year or next.

etk
03-12-2007, 10:41 AM
Oops I contradicted myself with the DE post. We need to draft a DE this year, but it doesn't have to be a first rounder, was my point. I'd much rather have Calais Campbell or someone else next year, when it becomes an even bigger need.

As for the Chris Simms arguments here, I'm going to end it, and whoever disagrees is not thinking logically (sorry):

He has a 2 year contract because he is being given a chance this year to take the reins over again this year. It's a make-or-break year for Simms and he has to prove himself, because he is on a short leash. Regardless of how we predict he will perform, that is how our QB situation will be this season. If he fails in his oppurtunity, Garcia will take over and a QB of the future will be drafted in 08, no question. There's just no chance for us to do it this year because we still believe that Simms is worth giving a chance, and if we draft Quinn we could get a Brees/Rivers situation that gets ugly. It makes it especially easy to trust Simms this year if we can add to his weapons with CJ. The bottom line is that Simms proved himself steadily in 05, and 06 was disappointing for Simms but not to the point where we lose all hope and draft Quinn. He is being given a last chance and it will be up to him to decide whether or not we draft a QB in 08.

For all of your draft boards, there is a chance that we will draft Thomas, but there is absolutely no chance that we would draft Brady Quinn, so give it up.

Booger
03-12-2007, 12:08 PM
Oops I contradicted myself with the DE post. We need to draft a DE this year, but it doesn't have to be a first rounder, was my point. I'd much rather have Calais Campbell or someone else next year, when it becomes an even bigger need.

As for the Chris Simms arguments here, I'm going to end it, and whoever disagrees is not thinking logically (sorry):

He has a 2 year contract because he is being given a chance this year to take the reins over again this year. It's a make-or-break year for Simms and he has to prove himself, because he is on a short leash. Regardless of how we predict he will perform, that is how our QB situation will be this season. If he fails in his oppurtunity, Garcia will take over and a QB of the future will be drafted in 08, no question. There's just no chance for us to do it this year because we still believe that Simms is worth giving a chance, and if we draft Quinn we could get a Brees/Rivers situation that gets ugly. It makes it especially easy to trust Simms this year if we can add to his weapons with CJ. The bottom line is that Simms proved himself steadily in 05, and 06 was disappointing for Simms but not to the point where we lose all hope and draft Quinn. He is being given a last chance and it will be up to him to decide whether or not we draft a QB in 08.

For all of your draft boards, there is a chance that we will draft Thomas, but there is absolutely no chance that we would draft Brady Quinn, so give it up.


You make some bold statements there. Why would you want to end an argument, what would be the point of posting on this board if there was no arguing?

First off, Simms is by no means guaranteed to start this season. In my opinion, Garcia should be the opening day starter. I dont understand why you make comments like "that is how our QB situation will be this season" and
"There's just no chance for us to do it this year ", do you have some inside information, or are you just stating your opinion as fact?

"but there is absolutely no chance that we would draft Brady Quinn, so give it up"

Again, what are you basing this on? Did Gruden and Allen tell you this? Honestly, stating your opinion is one thing, but pretending that you have anything more than an educated guess as to what the Bucs will do makes you sound pretty bad.

If the Bucs were as high on Simms as you are, I could see where the Simms argument could be ended. But the reality is that Simms was signed to a 2-year deal, creating the perfect situation to draft a QB to play behind Simms/Garcia for two seasons.

While QB is clearly not a need for today (or the next two seasons), the Bucs have never had the franchise stud at that position. The reason to draft Quinn would be if Gruden truly loved him, if Gruden doesnt believe that Simms is the future at the position, and the hope that we will not draft this high again for many years to come. You say that we can draft a QB in 08 if Simms struggles again, but what if we are picking in the 15-20 range? This year may just be our year to draft the "Franchise QB" we have never had.

Quinn is a distant third to JT and CJ on my draft board, but the scenario in which both JT and CJ are gone is a very likely one. If Gruden really likes Quinn, and no defensive player is worth the #4 overall pick, why not take Quinn?

Tell me where my logic is off, the Simms argument has not ended.

Jeff82
03-12-2007, 12:41 PM
Welcome to the boards Jeff. I agree with your list of prospects and think that the Buccaneers should draft:

1. CJ - No need for explanation
2. JT - Every team needs a franchise LT
3. GA - May not be as well rounded as Anderson but is the prototypical Cover 2 DE.


Joe Staley in the 2nd would be good, however I don't see how he would be that much of an upgrade over what we already have, unlike Joe Thomas who is franchise tackle material. James Marten is a RT and won't go till the 2nd.

Charles Johnson will be gone by pick 2B, Crowder might be around and Atkins is not even worth a 3rd, let alone a 2nd.

I actually like Joe Staley, not as a guy that will come in his first year and be an All-Pro, but as a guy that two years down the road will give us two very good tackles. I think he needs some work because he is still somewhat raw, but this kid could be very good. I watched him play against Boston College in the first game of the year and was very impressed.

I do like Joe Thomas, but I see no problem with going with a guy like Joe Staley in the 2nd round. Plenty of very good tackles have come out of the 2nd round, and look at Marcus McNeil from last year. Thomas looks to be a lock to be an elite LT in the NFL, but a tackle can emerge and eventually become elite.

Charles Johnson might not be gone by pick 2A. I'm not pointing out what Tampa will or should draft, just pointing out that the options are there later on for certain positions in this years draft. At defensive end you will have guys like Tim Crowder, Charles Johnson (possibly), Baraka Atkins (not as bad as y'all think but still not a 2A pick), Victor Abiamiri, and more.

Booger
03-12-2007, 12:48 PM
Marcus McNeil was a first round player with serious health concerns.

The Boselli's (#2 overall), Pace's (#1 overall), and Ogden's (#4 overall) were all drafted very high.

Although I believe that all of this Joe Thomas talk may be for nothing, as he is likely to go in the top 3.

etk
03-12-2007, 01:27 PM
All of this Brady Quinn talk is for nothing, he is more likely to go in the top 3. If Simms is not our franchise QB, we will be picking in the top 10 next year. Our defense is not good enough to keep us in the 15-20 range if we have lousy play at QB. Obviously my statements may be bold and they may make me sound crazy, but the reality is that we have a respectable plan for our QB position this year and we are not adding anyone. Simms will be given his last chance to shine again, Garcia will challenge him, & Gradkowski will continue to be developed, at least as our backup of the future. We will not draft Quinn, there is absolutely no chance, and I would bet anything on it.

Merlin
03-12-2007, 01:58 PM
You make some bold statements there. Why would you want to end an argument, what would be the point of posting on this board if there was no arguing?

First off, Simms is by no means guaranteed to start this season. In my opinion, Garcia should be the opening day starter. I dont understand why you make comments like "that is how our QB situation will be this season" and
"There's just no chance for us to do it this year ", do you have some inside information, or are you just stating your opinion as fact?

"but there is absolutely no chance that we would draft Brady Quinn, so give it up"

Again, what are you basing this on? Did Gruden and Allen tell you this? Honestly, stating your opinion is one thing, but pretending that you have anything more than an educated guess as to what the Bucs will do makes you sound pretty bad.

If the Bucs were as high on Simms as you are, I could see where the Simms argument could be ended. But the reality is that Simms was signed to a 2-year deal, creating the perfect situation to draft a QB to play behind Simms/Garcia for two seasons.

While QB is clearly not a need for today (or the next two seasons), the Bucs have never had the franchise stud at that position. The reason to draft Quinn would be if Gruden truly loved him, if Gruden doesnt believe that Simms is the future at the position, and the hope that we will not draft this high again for many years to come. You say that we can draft a QB in 08 if Simms struggles again, but what if we are picking in the 15-20 range? This year may just be our year to draft the "Franchise QB" we have never had.

Quinn is a distant third to JT and CJ on my draft board, but the scenario in which both JT and CJ are gone is a very likely one. If Gruden really likes Quinn, and no defensive player is worth the #4 overall pick, why not take Quinn?

Tell me where my logic is off, the Simms argument has not ended.

BUMP!

ETK quote
"but the reality is that we have a respectable plan for our QB position this year and we are not adding anyone." END!

That "statement" is exactly what Booger is going on about! You have no substance, just your opinion!?!

ETK quote:
"We will not draft Quinn, there is absolutely no chance, and I would bet anything on it." END!

How on Gods green earth do you know that "absolutely"!?!?!
You simply don't!

We may not draft Quinn, you could be right, but not necessarily due to your arguement? it's all merely speculation at this point!

Jeff82
03-12-2007, 02:04 PM
Past drafts have shown that quality OT can come out of the 2nd round or later, just as much if not moreso than the first round. A lot of supposed locks to be great tackles don't pan out (just like other positions) and you can find steals later on.

Since 2000 quality 2nd round guys...

Michael Roos
Matt Light
Maurice Williams
Chad Clifton
Marvel Smith
Khalif Barnes
Jon Stinchcomb

1st Round guys that haven't been busts...

Chris Samuels
Leonard Davis (didn't exactly become a monster like most expected)
Jeff Backus
Bryant McKinnie
Levi Jones
Jordan Gross
Vernon Carey
Jamaal Brown

First round busts...

Robert Gallery
Mike Williams
George Foster
Marc Colombo
Kwame Harris
Kenyatta Walker
Stockar McDougle

3rd round and later steals...

Kareem McKenzie
Ryan Diem
Tony Pashos
Max Starks
Sean Locklear

To conclude... I like Joe Thomas, but to say that a guy like Joe Staley or somebody later couldn't turn out to be a quality OT isn't totally correct.

Booger
03-12-2007, 02:36 PM
To conclude... I like Joe Thomas, but to say that a guy like Joe Staley or somebody later couldn't turn out to be a quality OT isn't totally correct.

Agreed, I dont think that anybody said that Staley (or any 2nd round OT) couldnt turn out to be a quality player.

IMO, Leonard Davis is a bust, and it is too early to call Gallery a bust. But both of those are clearly debatable.

Other than that, I like your lists.

etk
03-12-2007, 02:39 PM
Our OT situation is really confusing and I really have no clue what we are thinking or doing. Petitgout is nothing to write home about and his false starts will be a problem, especially when we go to Seattle. He is not the future and I'm not sure if he is the present either. Anthony Davis is young and has been our starter, but is he our future at LT and do we want to keep him? That's all happening while I hope that Trueblood really is the future for us at RT, where we need a backup anyway. So the question is are we going to draft a T or stick with those guys, and if we do decide to draft one, will it be now or another year? Joe Thomas is obviously 100x better than Davis/Petitgout, but will we just stick with them anyway and pass him up to focus on bigger needs?

Caddy
03-12-2007, 03:31 PM
We may not draft Quinn, you could be right, but not necessarily due to your arguement? it's all merely speculation at this point!

Is that not what we love about the draft?

Booger
03-12-2007, 03:46 PM
Is that not what we love about the draft?

Absolutely, but its frustrating to have to read people stating their opinion's as fact.

I doubt that Gruden or Allen could say that there is absolutely no chance that we are drafting Quinn, so how can etk say that and not sound stupid?

etk
03-12-2007, 04:29 PM
Absolutely, but its frustrating to have to read people stating their opinion's as fact.

I doubt that Gruden or Allen could say that there is absolutely no chance that we are drafting Quinn, so how can etk say that and not sound stupid?

Because when it comes down to it that's what will happen, and it doesn't take a psychic or an inside source to see that. Do any of you want to bet that Quinn will be drafted by us? Probably not, because you guys know we won't be drafting him.

Caddy
03-12-2007, 07:52 PM
The odds are certainly against us drafting Quinn, but you still can not say with 100% conviction that we will not draft one player or another.

etk
03-12-2007, 08:55 PM
As far as Quinn goes, I just got the Sporting News draft mag today. They graded Quinn a 6.9(Russell was 8.7), said he was the riskiest player to draft this year, and rated him way behind Kevin Kolb as the 3rd best QB in the draft. They said he has limited upside as well, and thought he should be taken in the 3rd round. Keep in mind that the people doing the grading were War Room scouts. WRS go further in-depth when it comes to college tape then anyone, and they have many other bold ratings for other players like they did with Quinn.

Use this information as you wish, but it only strengthens the argument that we should not draft Quinn, because he is not being touted as highly and he might not be great value at our pick anyway, and is a player like that really much of an upgrade over Simms? The grade he was given was where Simms was drafted....

Caddy
03-12-2007, 09:49 PM
They graded Quinn a 6.9(Russell was 8.7), said he was the riskiest player to draft this year, and rated him way behind Kevin Kolb as the 3rd best QB in the draft. They said he has limited upside as well, and thought he should be taken in the 3rd round.


And that is why that article should be completely disregarded. Kolb better than Quinn? Quinn in the 3rd? That is absolutely horrific.

etk
03-12-2007, 09:55 PM
And that is why that article should be completely disregarded. Kolb better than Quinn? Quinn in the 3rd? That is absolutely horrific.

It was not an article, it was a draft magazine. They're round gradings were based purely on their opinions after watching tape and discussing in their war room, they don't take into account where a player will actually go. Marshawn Lynch was graded a 2nd rounder among others. Okoye was their #3 player, JaMarcus was #1.

Caddy
03-12-2007, 10:15 PM
As soon a J-Mac was listed number 1 that magazine loses all credibility

Chucky
03-12-2007, 10:24 PM
as soon as brady quinn isnt the number 2 qb it loses all credibility, their is no doubt he is miles ahead of kolb right now

etk
03-12-2007, 11:24 PM
It doesn't have to do with them hating Quinn, they just think very highly of Kolb, and think he will be a better pro. A lot of teams and people have been buzzing over Kolb too.

Caddy
03-12-2007, 11:26 PM
It doesn't have to do with them hating Quinn, they just think very highly of Kolb, and think he will be a better pro. A lot of teams and people have been buzzing over Kolb too.

Kolb is nowhere need the prospect Quinn is.

Bucs4242
03-13-2007, 12:16 AM
We have all learnt from the past two seasons that that statement is completely false and Gruden cannot do that, only Mike Martz can.


Dude if the pocket is collapsing in 2 seconds every play, it is hard to get open for more than a5 yard pass

If the QB is not seeing guys open downfield, that means he is not going through his progressions.

If the Wr drops the ball than it has nothing to do with whether or not Gruden put them in position to make the play


Irving Fryar, Tim Brown, Jerry Rice, Joe Jurevicius, Keenan McCardell, Joey Galloway, rookie Michael Clayton, did you not see what he did for each of these guys careers?

Gruden gets guys open when his OL isnt letting guys crush his QB (Bucs OL), when his QB isnt missing reads (2003-2004 Brad Johnson and 2004-2005 Brian Griese) and when the WR isnt droopping balls (2005-2006 Michael Clayton)

Caddy
03-13-2007, 12:22 AM
Another thread gone completely off-topic :D

Merlin
03-13-2007, 04:47 AM
Absolutely, but its frustrating to have to read people stating their opinion's as fact.

I doubt that Gruden or Allen could say that there is absolutely no chance that we are drafting Quinn, so how can etk say that and not sound stupid?
"so how can etk say that and not sound stupid?"......he can't!

ETK Quote:
"Because when it comes down to it that's what will happen, and it doesn't take a psychic or an inside source to see that. Do any of you want to bet that Quinn will be drafted by us? Probably not, because you guys know we won't be drafting him." END

So you know CJ won't be a Raider?
So you know JR/JT/GA/CJ won't be a Lion?
So you know JR/JT/AP/GA/CJ won't be a Brown?

You've just lost what little credibility you had left IMO, your constant postings stating only your opinion as fact, show a complete lack of judgement and substance on your behalf!

etk
03-13-2007, 11:18 AM
"so how can etk say that and not sound stupid?"......he can't!

ETK Quote:
"Because when it comes down to it that's what will happen, and it doesn't take a psychic or an inside source to see that. Do any of you want to bet that Quinn will be drafted by us? Probably not, because you guys know we won't be drafting him." END

So you know CJ won't be a Raider?
So you know JR/JT/GA/CJ won't be a Lion?
So you know JR/JT/AP/GA/CJ won't be a Brown?

You've just lost what little credibility you had left IMO, your constant postings stating only your opinion as fact, show a complete lack of judgement and substance on your behalf!

CJ can go number 1, Gaines can go number 2, and Joe Thomas can go #3 and we STILL WON'T TAKE QUINN. I don't need to explain myself anymore to you, and I couldn't give a rat's ass what you think about me. You are still trying to challenge me over the Quinn argument, when I have already stated and proved my opinions. I don't feel like writing 2 more 3 paragraph explanations on why we will not be drafting Brady Quinn under any circumstances this year. Choose not to believe me, I couldn't care a less.

etk
03-13-2007, 11:23 AM
Dude if the pocket is collapsing in 2 seconds every play, it is hard to get open for more than a5 yard pass

If the QB is not seeing guys open downfield, that means he is not going through his progressions.

If the Wr drops the ball than it has nothing to do with whether or not Gruden put them in position to make the play


Irving Fryar, Tim Brown, Jerry Rice, Joe Jurevicius, Keenan McCardell, Joey Galloway, rookie Michael Clayton, did you not see what he did for each of these guys careers?

Gruden gets guys open when his OL isnt letting guys crush his QB (Bucs OL), when his QB isnt missing reads (2003-2004 Brad Johnson and 2004-2005 Brian Griese) and when the WR isnt droopping balls (2005-2006 Michael Clayton)

If the QB is missing reads then how come Joey Galloway had one of the most successful seasons of any of those guys in 05, with Simms as his QB for most of the season?

2005 Tampa Bay Buccaneers 16 16 83 1287 15.5 80 10
2006 Tampa Bay Buccaneers 16 14 62 1057 17.0 64 7

I see a small decline in his numbers when Simms is not his QB. They have a terrific rapport and it would be a shame to start anyone else and take away the relationship that they have built together. Brian Griese had it with Michael Clayton, and when he left Clayton stopped producing.

Booger
03-13-2007, 11:23 AM
CJ can go number 1, Gaines can go number 2, and Joe Thomas can go #3 and we STILL WON'T TAKE QUINN. I don't need to explain myself anymore to you, and I couldn't give a rat's ass what you think about me. You are still trying to challenge me over the Quinn argument, when I have already stated and proved my opinions. I don't feel like writing 2 more 3 paragraph explanations on why we will not be drafting Brady Quinn under any circumstances this year. Choose not to believe me, I couldn't care a less.

Im not sure that you have proved anything, but I regress.

In the nightmare scenario that CJ, Gaines, and JT are all gone, I am of the opinion that we will select Amobi Okoye (back on topic).

etk
03-13-2007, 11:28 AM
Im not sure that you have proved anything, but I regress.

In the nightmare scenario that CJ, Gaines, and JT are all gone, I am of the opinion that we will select Amobi Okoye (back on topic).

I am of the opinion that Okoye would be the runaway 100% lock of a pick. Quinn's name would be mentioned and our war room would nod their heads side-to-side.

Merlin
03-13-2007, 01:08 PM
CJ can go number 1, Gaines can go number 2, and Joe Thomas can go #3 and we STILL WON'T TAKE QUINN. I don't need to explain myself anymore to you, and I couldn't give a rat's ass what you think about me. You are still trying to challenge me over the Quinn argument, when I have already stated and proved my opinions. I don't feel like writing 2 more 3 paragraph explanations on why we will not be drafting Brady Quinn under any circumstances this year. Choose not to believe me, I couldn't care a less.I'm sure everyone has a good idea about what has been "proved", and what hasn't!?!....lols

Using your "logic" let me be the first to say, "we won't be picking Adrian Peterson??" however, unlike you, I can't!, and won't!, claim it as a "fact"!?!

PS, why would anyone nod their head from side to side???....did you mean shake their head.......

Caddy
03-13-2007, 03:19 PM
I'm sure everyone has a good idea about what has been "proved", and what hasn't!?!....lols

Using your "logic" let me be the first to say, "we won't be picking Adrian Peterson??" however, unlike you, I can't!, and won't!, claim it as a "fact"!?!

PS, why would anyone nod their head from side to side???....did you mean shake their head.......

I'm pretty sure he just means shake their head side to side.

etk
03-13-2007, 03:31 PM
I'm sure everyone has a good idea about what has been "proved", and what hasn't!?!....lols

Using your "logic" let me be the first to say, "we won't be picking Adrian Peterson??" however, unlike you, I can't!, and won't!, claim it as a "fact"!?!

PS, why would anyone nod their head from side to side???....did you mean shake their head.......

Now you're getting there, we won't be picking Adrian Peterson either. We should all be confident in Bruce Allen & Chucky that they won't make a stupid pick in the 1st round, so I can trust that Quinn & Peterson will not be drafted. Is that such an audacious statement to you?

Caddy
03-13-2007, 03:34 PM
I don't think Quinn would be a stupid pick as such.

Booger
03-13-2007, 03:34 PM
Now you're getting there, we won't be picking Adrian Peterson either. We should all be confident in Bruce Allen & Chucky that they won't make a stupid pick in the 1st round, so I can trust that Quinn & Peterson will not be drafted. Is that such an audacious statement to you?

No, I just think that there are many people who would not classify selecting Brady Quinn as a "stupid pick".

While I wouldnt pick Brady Quinn, I wouldnt call it a stupid pick if we did. If we picked him, I would trust that Gruden sees enough in him and not enough in Simms to pull the trigger.

Merlin
03-13-2007, 05:39 PM
Now you're getting there, we won't be picking Adrian Peterson either. We should all be confident in Bruce Allen & Chucky that they won't make a stupid pick in the 1st round, so I can trust that Quinn & Peterson will not be drafted. Is that such an audacious statement to you?

Not just to me,.....or so it seems!

etk
03-13-2007, 06:27 PM
Not just to me,.....or so it seems!

Is your only goal here to try and argue with me? You don't post or say anything else, except for trying to make me look bad and posting exclamation marks to try to make your points bolder. I'm sorry if I have been mistaken but where is your insight on the Bucs and our draft? All you have been doing is contradicting me without giving me your glorious opinions and analysis. I don't see you giving any insight on prospect on the draft forums or showing your Bucs pride anywhere but here, where you do nothing but try to cause trouble. Sometimes I can't even understand what you are saying because you can't quote properly, and every sentence ends like this "!" so I get confused as to which points are of emphasis. You challenge my credibility, but I know tremendous information about the draft, and I've hardly seen you spread any knowledge whatsoever, especially concering the draft.

Merlin
03-14-2007, 01:54 AM
Is your only goal here to try and argue with me? You don't post or say anything else, except for trying to make me look bad and posting exclamation marks to try to make your points bolder. I'm sorry if I have been mistaken but where is your insight on the Bucs and our draft? All you have been doing is contradicting me without giving me your glorious opinions and analysis. I don't see you giving any insight on prospect on the draft forums or showing your Bucs pride anywhere but here, where you do nothing but try to cause trouble. Sometimes I can't even understand what you are saying because you can't quote properly, and every sentence ends like this "!" so I get confused as to which points are of emphasis. You challenge my credibility, but I know tremendous information about the draft, and I've hardly seen you spread any knowledge whatsoever, especially concering the draft.Sorry if you find my posts a "threat" to your credibility, IMO, you have constantly proven to have very little!
Your post's tend to lack any substance, though you promote your opinion as "fact" when that is clearly not the case.

I am not here to specifically argue (or cause trouble) with you, or anyone else for that matter, but this is a forum, and people obviously won't agree with each other, 100% of the time, and in doing so will "argue" their points!

"Showing Buc pride anywhere, but here", strangly enough, I use the same names and sig, on all forums (bar one), which includes the TBBB, now that you mention it, do you post under a different name on other sites? I haven't seen "etk" anywhere else myself? though judging by what I have read here, I'm not too bothered!

As for "spreading my knowledge" I post when I have something to say, or an opinion on a subject, I have made a number of comments and posts concerning the Bucs draft strategy (on this board), I suggest you "look before you leap!".

I would add, I hold no ill will towards you, and find some of your post's, very thought provoking, even if I don't agree, or like, what/how, you have said it.

Go Bucs.

etk
03-14-2007, 10:52 AM
You act as if everything I say is bogus written as statement, when that is completely false. I stated my opinions on Quinn and our QB situation, and then I converted them into a statement. I stated it as fact because I am sure of myself and my comment, and I don't feel the need to say "I doubt we draft Quinn", when the truth is "we won't draft Quinn". I always have good substance to all arguments and I always analyse before posting, so you can learn to accept when I state an opinion as fact, because it only happens when I am sure of something.

As far as credibility, I joined this forum 2 months ago and I am already a respected and well-liked poster by many. You hardly post and your only posts that I remember have been challenges to me. You may have your excuses, like going on other forums and such, that's great! Don't come here if your only goal is to sabotage our team thread and challenge other posters.

Merlin
03-14-2007, 01:54 PM
You act as if everything I say is bogus written as statement, when that is completely false. I stated my opinions on Quinn and our QB situation, and then I converted them into a statement. I stated it as fact because I am sure of myself and my comment, and I don't feel the need to say "I doubt we draft Quinn", when the truth is "we won't draft Quinn". I always have good substance to all arguments and I always analyse before posting, so you can learn to accept when I state an opinion as fact, because it only happens when I am sure of something.

As far as credibility, I joined this forum 2 months ago and I am already a respected and well-liked poster by many. You hardly post and your only posts that I remember have been challenges to me. You may have your excuses, like going on other forums and such, that's great! Don't come here if your only goal is to sabotage our team thread and challenge other posters.
I'm glad you feel respected and well liked by many, and it's nice to know your sure about it....good for you!

As I've already pointed out, this is an open forum, and I will post my thought's and opinions when I please, I certainly won't stop because of you....lols
I don't have a "goal" other than to enjoy myself, discussing our team with other like-minded individuals, even one's such as yourself, I don't have anything against you personally, I don't even know you, o.k, so we don't see eye to eye, I doubt your shedding any tears, nor am I.

The only thing I would say, is that if you can't handle a bit of banter, don't try and dish it out, even if we don't agree, we are all free to state an opinion.

I'm not here to "challenge" poster's? I'm here to discuss the merit's of differing opinions from other Buc fans, I would assume that's the whole point of a forum, I'm certainly not here trying to be "loved" by everyone, if I'm wrong, I'll admit it, if someone makes a valid point, I'll support it, and if someone (IMO) is talking rubbish, I'll tackle them, and the subject, after all, that's what we all do, in our own unique ways.

etk
03-14-2007, 02:07 PM
Some people have made very insightful posts and you constantly attack them. Not only on this thread, but others. I looked at your recent posts and they have all been arguments with other Bucs fans, trying to make them look bad, like what you did with T24L in a recent thread.

It would make our team threads a lot more smooth if you focussed on discussing the Bucs, since I'm sure that is your priority if you post on several Bucs forums. Your opinions are always appreciated, but sometimes you attack posters in a rude manner, and sometimes said posters did not say anything harmful or false to begin with.

Merlin
03-14-2007, 02:09 PM
Some people have made very insightful posts and you constantly attack them. Not only on this thread, but others. I looked at your recent posts and they have all been arguments with other Bucs fans, trying to make them look bad, like what you did with T24L in a recent thread.

It would make our team threads a lot more smooth if you focussed on discussing the Bucs, since I'm sure that is your priority if you post on several Bucs forums. Your opinions are always appreciated, but sometimes you attack posters in a rude manner, and sometimes said posters did not say anything harmful or false to begin with.Feel free, to post that link!!!

Caddy
03-14-2007, 03:17 PM
I joined this forum 2 months ago and I am already a respected and well-liked poster by many.

Hard to believe with your post count you only joined 2 months ago. At this rate you are going to be the next dg at the rate you are going.

-black
03-14-2007, 04:08 PM
im confused to how taking Quinn would be a good pick?

ks_perfection
03-14-2007, 04:30 PM
im confused to how taking Quinn would be a good pick?

Because we don't have any good quaterbacks. We have 2 medicore QBs, Garica will most likely be a bust as QB, he was dreadful for 5 years for 3 teams than played great in philly. It was most likely a great situatino for him, especially considering that Feeley alos was great in his 1 game last season, with those 2 having great games for them it looks like anyone can succedd in that offense.

Simms was decent when we made the playoffs, he wasn't as good as others made him out to be, he had some great games and some dreadfully awful ones and overall average. Last year he was awful, he's not a good fit for this offense and he's not that talented of a QB to begin with. He's an average QB at best.

Quinn is a great prospect at the most important position, its unlikely that we'll be able to find a player of his caliber next year. And given our QB situation we'll probably be regretting passing on him.

Booger
03-14-2007, 04:48 PM
Garcia is a perfect fit for the west coast offense, see last season with Philly. He is a relatively low risk signing, wherein bonuses do not kick in unless the team is winning.

Simms remains unproven, and Garcia at the very least, provides depth in case Simms gets hurt again. Although in my opinion, Garcia will start.

The reason Quinn wouldnt be a terrible pick is because our QB situation after the next two seasons is very much up in the air. If Gruden sees Quinn as a franchise QB, I wouldnt call it a bad selection.

I dont think that the Bucs will draft a QB at all in this draft, but if CJ and JT are gone, I hope that the Bucs think long and hard about drafting one of Russell or Quinn.

-black
03-14-2007, 04:55 PM
i'm not even going to debate the QB situation(with what we have now) because we are in obvious disagreement when it comes to Simms. Not to mention that he should be giving this year and then if she sucked it up there is always Brohm, Brennan, and QB's next year. We should not take a QB


but not going by what I feel, Gruden wont take one anyway. He knows he is on the hot seat and he does not have the time to develope a QB, especially after he just signed Garcia and resigned Simms. He wants to win now, and he will take the player who he feels gives this team the best chance to win now.

Booger
03-14-2007, 05:08 PM
I agree that we will not likely take a QB at all in this draft.

But to play devil's advocate, Gruden being on the hot seat may be a reason to draft a QB at #4. If the team has $80 million (or whatever it takes to sign at #4 overall QB) invested in a QB, who is better than Gruden to develop this QB?

etk
03-14-2007, 05:11 PM
Gruden doesn't need to spend a first-rounder on a QB, just like Detroit doesn't need a first-round WR. All we need is competency from our QBs to succeed in Gruden's offence, and Simms can do that at the very least, while Garcia has proven the same. Brad Johnson was an average NFL starter and we won a Super Bowl with him. We also won our division with a young Simms playing decent football, so I think our situation right now is respectable and we don't need to waste a pick on a QB when we have "real" needs to worry about.

etk
03-14-2007, 05:12 PM
Hard to believe with your post count you only joined 2 months ago. At this rate you are going to be the next dg at the rate you are going.

HAHA no, DG has over 30 posts a day, I have 28 :D

ks_perfection
03-14-2007, 07:21 PM
Gruden doesn't need to spend a first-rounder on a QB, just like Detroit doesn't need a first-round WR. All we need is competency from our QBs to succeed in Gruden's offence, and Simms can do that at the very least, while Garcia has proven the same. Brad Johnson was an average NFL starter and we won a Super Bowl with him. We also won our division with a young Simms playing decent football, so I think our situation right now is respectable and we don't need to waste a pick on a QB when we have "real" needs to worry about.

If Simms is compotent at the very least why was he horrible last season? As for Garcia how did he prove he can be compotent at a west coast offense not in philly? He wasn't at the last 2 west coast offences in before that (Detroit and SF). Our offense is alot more like the teams he failed at than the 1 he did well at.

As for TB only needing a compotent QB for a SB that was true in the past, but only because we had a great defense. Those days are gone, we will need a much better production for our QBs to win than before. And by picking Gaines or Oko won't turn it into the great defense we had, it will take alot of young talented players to do that.

Microphon200
03-14-2007, 07:29 PM
Okoye's upside is superhigh. We have a guy who might be on the top of his game for 15 years barring injury. I think that alone puts him over Adams.

Adams will be 24 and Okoye will be 20. So yes, he'll have it figured out early. He'll have many great years if he's any good.

Beans
03-14-2007, 07:29 PM
In every single bad game Simms had in '05, you could see that the O-Line was getting raped each time.

etk
03-14-2007, 07:54 PM
In every single bad game Simms had in '05, you could see that the O-Line was getting raped each time.

Raped is a major understatement......

Caddy
03-14-2007, 11:43 PM
i'm not even going to debate the QB situation(with what we have now) because we are in obvious disagreement when it comes to Simms. Not to mention that he should be giving this year and then if she sucked it up there is always Brohm, Brennan, and QB's next year. We should not take a QB


but not going by what I feel, Gruden wont take one anyway. He knows he is on the hot seat and he does not have the time to develope a QB, especially after he just signed Garcia and resigned Simms. He wants to win now, and he will take the player who he feels gives this team the best chance to win now.

I agree that the Bucs will not likely be taking a QB due solely to Grudens past nature. He likes experienced veteran types which is why we brought Plummer and Garcia into the mix.

But I don't agree that we should not take a QB now so we can grab one in the future. Quinn > Brohm and Brennan

etk
03-15-2007, 10:22 AM
I think Brian Broham is the best QB prospect since Carson Palmer. I might be in the minority right now, but when the time comes that he declares most will probably agree. He has prototypical size and mechanics, and when I watch him I see a young Peyton Manning. If he employs Manning's work ethic he could be very special, but he also has to stay healthy which is a big problem for him right now.

Bucsfan
03-15-2007, 11:20 AM
how could quinn not be a good pick? he is a solid NFL QB, if any of you think Simms is the future or will ever drive this team to a SB you are extremely wrong, and will be dissapointed if that is what your expecting

etk
03-15-2007, 12:20 PM
how could quinn not be a good pick? he is a solid NFL QB, if any of you think Simms is the future or will ever drive this team to a SB you are extremely wrong, and will be dissapointed if that is what your expecting

Where do you come up with these comments? Are you actually a Bucs fan, because it seems like you hate all of our players.

Merlin
03-15-2007, 02:48 PM
I don't know about Bucsfan "hate" for the team?

But I have to agree with him concerning Simms, forget my thoughts about Brady Quinn etc, I just don't see Simms as our QB of the future, I think his future is now! if he wants to lead this team, he'll need to beat out Garcia and start producing, lack-lustre O-line or not, that's the NFL for you!

etk
03-15-2007, 03:05 PM
I don't know about Bucsfan "hate" for the team?

But I have to agree with him concerning Simms, forget my thoughts about Brady Quinn etc, I just don't see Simms as our QB of the future, I think his future is now! if he wants to lead this team, he'll need to beat out Garcia and start producing, lack-lustre O-line or not, that's the NFL for you!

At least you have hope for Simms. Bucsfan acts as if it is a done deal that he will struggle, almost like he wants him to! He also said he doesn't think Barrett Ruud is our future at MLB, so let me ask you Bucsfan. What players are good enough for you? I mean other than Eric Weddle because he is obviously the most talented human being on the planet.

Caddy
03-15-2007, 04:39 PM
But I have to agree with him concerning Simms, forget my thoughts about Brady Quinn etc, I just don't see Simms as our QB of the future, I think his future is now! if he wants to lead this team, he'll need to beat out Garcia and start producing, lack-lustre O-line or not, that's the NFL for you!

I kind of have to agree with you. If Simms can't prove himself this year we need to get a new QB somehow. Whether the front office feels it is already time to upgrade or wait till next year is another matter, either way we may need to draft a 1st round QB in the near future.