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bigbluedefense
11-10-2009, 12:48 PM
I said Id make this thread next week, but I'm in the mood now so im gonna make it now. I'll probably forget some stuff I want to discuss in the process, my thread will be sporadic and an eye sore to read as always, and there will be grammar and spelling errors. I apologize in advance for all of this.

-Its been discussed in another thread, and I want to discuss it here as well. Chris Johnson is an example of how the running game has changed in the NFL. In today's league, with the spread formations and the passing game being used to set up the screen game and run game, a guy of Johnson's skillset is more important than a guy like Brandon Jacobs as an example.

You have to be small and quick enough to run through small lanes, you have to have the speed to cutback, catch out of the backfield to present a matchup problem to potentially take an LB off the field, you have to pass block. Basically, you have to be a spread offense RB. Those guys are the most dangerous backs in today's NFL.

I'm not saying that the traditional RBs are not effective anymore, but their contributions and effectiveness are diminishing. Every team needs a scatback now. And he should get half the carries.

-Also, speaking of Johnson, is it a coincidence that he explodes the past 2 weeks with Vince Young at qb? I think not. Vince is getting too much credit in some ways for their victories, considering his passing numbers, but whats overlooked is how his scrambling ability has opened up lanes for the run game and in turn, improved Chris Johnson's numbers. So maybe his play is not overrated afterall? Something to think about.

Vince isn't the type of guy that will wow you with numbers. But let's face it, he does win, and the team has looked much better with him under center. I'm still skeptical, but maybe Vince isn't dead yet after all. We'll have to wait and see.

-The traditional 4-3 WILL is a dying breed. I've realized this the past couple of weeks. We don't see many Derrick Brooks of the world anymore. Even players in college are not coming out in that mold anymore.

Why? Bc of the popularity of the 3-4 defense. Most kids in college are now developing their bodies to be 240 lbs, so they can either be 3-4 ILBs or 4-3 MIKEs.

Those speedy 4-3 WILLs are becoming rarer and rarer. The last guy that comes to mind that fit that profile coming out to me was Lawrence Timmons. And oddly enough, he gets drafted into a 3-4 and has to pack on weight and develop his body in that scheme.

The only 2 guys I can think of that are major players as traditional 4-3 WILLs in today's game are Lance Briggs (the prototype), and Michael Boley (he's been a complete stud for us, but just hasn't been healthy).

Think about it. Who else? Chad Greenway? Not fast enough. Rocky McIntosh? Not good enough. Thomas Howard? See Rocky McIntosh.

Maybe LeRoy Hill? I guess that makes 3 guys. But think about that. Thats how much defenses have changed over the past 4 years.

If you guys can name more, feel free to name em.

-Matt Ryan is hitting the sophomore slump. Now having that said, watch him put up a 40 burger on my Giants :(. But getting back to my original point, I think "the next Peyton Manning" talk is a bit premature. I love Ryan, I think the world of him. But let's put the anointing oil down. You gotta prove it first.

-Let's talk about the least appreciated pass rusher in the NFL. Let's talk about Trent Cole. I don't know why this guy doesn't get more credit, but he just doesn't. He's widely considered in the 2nd tier of dominant DEs in this league, but he's better than that.

Cole is just as good as the Osis, the Jared Allens of the world. Yes. Hes that good. He can stuff the run, he's a beast of a pass rusher, he can drop in coverage, he can bullrush, he can speed rush, he can do it all. And he has the production to match. Trent Cole is a monster. Its time he got in the Pro Bowl.

-How great was the CB class of 2008? DRC, McKlevin, Talib, Mike Jenkins, Tracy Porter, Brandon Flowers, Terrell Thomas, Antoine Cason, Im sure Im missing more. But what a sick CB class.

-The Wildcat offense is a great formation. I don't care what anybody says. It works, and its only going to get better. Whats overlooked is how good the wildcat is in the redzone/goalline. I've yet to see it get stuffed at the goalline. Teams simply don't know how to defend it and its misdirections at the goalline.

More teams should incorporate this package in their goalline formations. I think its effectiveness in that area is going overlooked. If we have a stat junky here, Id be very curious to see its success rate inside the 10 yard line.

I bet its very high.

-The Bengals are making a terrible mistake. They are running Cedric Benson into the ground. They found themselves a premiere RB (who I still personally feel is a legitimate MVP candidate), but they keep giving him 30+ carries a game. Thats overkill. They are going to run him into the ground. We all seen this tale before. We all know how it ends. Sure, he might be sick this year, but at that pace, he's going to be crap next year. Save the guy. Spread some touches. Protect your investment. You found a diamond in the rough, now make sure you keep him that way.

If the Bengals run him into the ground, expect him to do great this year, but poorly next year. And their whole offense will suffer next year as a result unless some serious changes/precautions are made.

If youre the Bengals, you don't want to be a one year wonder. Protect Benson. Take some carries off his shoulders.

-The 1 and 2 seeds. Do you want your team to really have it anymore? Look at recent history. Most teams who've had the bye week have lost their game. Is it a coincidence. I don't think so. And here's why.

The NFL has made a terrible mistake in allowing assistant coaches on playoff teams the right to interview for HC jobs during the playoffs. During this bye week, its very common for assistant coaches on those teams to go out and interview for HC positions.

When they do this, they almost never are able to put 100% of their energy into the gameplan for the following week. Theyre more concerned about getting the new job. Think about it. Wouldn't you? If you were them, what would you dedicate more time to? The following opponent? Or your job interview?

And because of this, the teams that rely a lot on good coordination, often see their team flop during their playoff game bc their coordinators aren't putting as much effort into the gameplan. And the team suffers bc of it. I saw it happen to the Titans (Schwartz gets a job), Giants (Spags gets a job, Killdrive almost gets one) last year. Coincidence?

I don't think so. Think of it this way. The only 1 or 2 seed to win their postseason game was Pittsburgh last year. They had no one interview for a HC job during the bye week. The Giants, Titans did. Not sure about the Panthers, maybe a Panthers fan can say.

So let's look at the teams with the fast track to the bye week. Minnesota and NO in the NFC, and Indy in the AFC.

Leslie Frazier of the Vikings could very well get some interviews, as will Greg Williams of the Saints.

I don't foresee anyone from the Colts getting an interview. So if all 3 of those teams get the bye, it would not shock me at all if Minny and NO somehow choke. Im not saying they will, but if they do, I think this is the very reason for it. Let's keep an eye on this.

I probably wrote too much, so i'm gonna stop it at this point. Again, sorry for the sporadic writing.

Gay Ork Wang
11-10-2009, 12:50 PM
Vince Young just wins games

CC.SD
11-10-2009, 01:00 PM
Good thoughts as always BBD. However I think you may have been suckered by Vince Young. With a sample size of only 2 games you can't redraw the map on this guy just yet.

The point about coordinators interviewing during the playoffs...this has been going on for a long time and I'd like to see a definitive correlation between missteps in the playoffs against coordinator interviews.

I'm sure it's there; not to get too homerish but I spent a lot of time discussing this with my brothers and buddies after the 2006 season; Wade Phillips and Cam Cameron were highly pursued and a 14-2 Charger team choked up and looked unprepared in the playoffs. The reasons behind that collapse are plentiful of course but there was a consensus that Cam Cameron stopped running the ball and put his passing game on display to the detriment of the team.

As for 4-3 Wills...the NFL moves in cycles, it always has. Right now the trend is towards bigger defenses. I don't doubt it will come back around eventually, I've never been sold on any position 'dying' permanently.

bigbluedefense
11-10-2009, 01:04 PM
Good thoughts as always BBD. However I think you may have been suckered by Vince Young. With a sample size of only 2 games you can't redraw the map on this guy just yet.

The point about coordinators interviewing during the playoffs...this has been going on for a long time and I'd like to see a definitive correlation between missteps in the playoffs against coordinator interviews.

I'm sure it's there; not to get too homerish but I spent a lot of time discussing this with my brothers and buddies after the 2006 season; Wade Phillips and Cam Cameron were highly pursued and a 14-2 Charger team choked up and looked unprepared in the playoffs. The reasons behind that collapse are plentiful of course but there was a consensus that Cam Cameron stopped running the ball and put his passing game on display to the detriment of the team.

As for 4-3 Wills...the NFL moves in cycles, it always has. Right now the trend is towards bigger defenses. I don't doubt it will come back around eventually, I've never been sold on any position 'dying' permanently.

Im not sold on Vince Young at all yet. But there are some things to consider. I'm just pointing them out right now. I'm still very skeptical on the guy, and want to see more.

I think the damage done during these interviews are more noticeable now than in years past because of parity. A lot of times it really comes down to gameplan.

I wouldn't say we're evolving into bigger defenses. I think we're evolving into more versatile defenses, ie the 3-4. The 3-4 defenses we see today are actually smaller and faster than your traditional Parcells style defense. But the versatility of the 3-4 is being used to counter the spread offense.

The zone blitz ability out of the 3-4 is the main reason for that.

Shiver
11-10-2009, 01:04 PM
-Its been discussed in another thread, and I want to discuss it here as well. Chris Johnson is an example of how the running game has changed in the NFL. In today's league, with the spread formations and the passing game being used to set up the screen game and run game, a guy of Johnson's skillset is more important than a guy like Brandon Jacobs as an example.

You have to be small and quick enough to run through small lanes, you have to have the speed to cutback, catch out of the backfield to present a matchup problem to potentially take an LB off the field, you have to pass block. Basically, you have to be a spread offense RB. Those guys are the most dangerous backs in today's NFL.

I'm not saying that the traditional RBs are not effective anymore, but their contributions and effectiveness are diminishing. Every team needs a scatback now. And he should get half the carries.

I love the way Chris Johnson, Ray Rice and Maurice Jones-Drew play. It is slightly different from what the RB position has been about throughout history, but they are ultra-productive and run with surprising amount of power.

-Also, speaking of Johnson, is it a coincidence that he explodes the past 2 weeks with Vince Young at qb? I think not. Vince is getting too much credit in some ways for their victories, considering his passing numbers, but whats overlooked is how his scrambling ability has opened up lanes for the run game and in turn, improved Chris Johnson's numbers. So maybe his play is not overrated afterall? Something to think about.

Vince isn't the type of guy that will wow you with numbers. But let's face it, he does win, and the team has looked much better with him under center. I'm still skeptical, but maybe Vince isn't dead yet after all. We'll have to wait and see.Same here, but I do think Young's presence will open up running lanes. I saw it first hand in Atlanta, where Michael Vick made Warrick Dunn and TJ Duckett look like excellent runners.

-The traditional 4-3 WILL is a dying breed. I've realized this the past couple of weeks. We don't see many Derrick Brooks of the world anymore. Even players in college are not coming out in that mold anymore.

Why? Bc of the popularity of the 3-4 defense. Most kids in college are now developing their bodies to be 240 lbs, so they can either be 3-4 ILBs or 4-3 MIKEs.

Those speedy 4-3 WILLs are becoming rarer and rarer. The last guy that comes to mind that fit that profile coming out to me was Lawrence Timmons. And oddly enough, he gets drafted into a 3-4 and has to pack on weight and develop his body in that scheme.

The only 2 guys I can think of that are major players as traditional 4-3 WILLs in today's game are Lance Briggs (the prototype), and Michael Boley (he's been a complete stud for us, but just hasn't been healthy).

Think about it. Who else? Chad Greenway? Not fast enough. Rocky McIntosh? Not good enough. Thomas Howard? See Rocky McIntosh.

Maybe LeRoy Hill? I guess that makes 3 guys. But think about that. Thats how much defenses have changed over the past 4 years.
What about Keith Rivers?

Speaking of linebackers, albeit a different position, have you seen much of my boy Curtis Lofton? He is your kind of player, my man. He is leading the league in tackles and every last one of them has been a bone-crusher.

-Matt Ryan is hitting the sophomore slump. Now having that said, watch him put up a 40 burger on my Giants :(. But getting back to my original point, I think "the next Peyton Manning" talk is a bit premature. I love Ryan, I think the world of him. But let's put the anointing oil down. You gotta prove it first.Let me bounce this off of you: His second year of starting is reminding me a lot of Philip Rivers' sophomore campaign. Both are similar players in both physical talent and football IQ.

In 2007 Philip Rivers had a hard time handling pressure, throwing while getting hit, eventually he learned how to handle it but he threw a lot of interceptions and did not look very sharp that year. The same thing is happening to Ryan; the pass protection hasn't been there and he has sped up his play and is making ill-advised throws. I think he will figure it out eventually though, I am far from worried.

-The Wildcat offense is a great formation. I don't care what anybody says. It works, and its only going to get better. Whats overlooked is how good the wildcat is in the redzone/goalline. I've yet to see it get stuffed at the goalline. Teams simply don't know how to defend it and its misdirections at the goalline.

More teams should incorporate this package in their goalline formations. I think its effectiveness in that area is going overlooked. If we have a stat junky here, Id be very curious to see its success rate inside the 10 yard line.

I bet its very high.I don't like the Wildcat really. We ran it with Vick in 2006 and had pretty good success, Miami is doing it well the last two years, but you need a certain kind of rushing talent to make it work. I think that is why that Miami (who has Brown, Williams and a road-grading line) has had success while other teams have not.

-

ThePudge
11-10-2009, 01:05 PM
-The Bengals are making a terrible mistake. They are running Cedric Benson into the ground. They found themselves a premiere RB (who I still personally feel is a legitimate MVP candidate), but they keep giving him 30+ carries a game. Thats overkill. They are going to run him into the ground. We all seen this tale before. We all know how it ends. Sure, he might be sick this year, but at that pace, he's going to be crap next year. Save the guy. Spread some touches. Protect your investment. You found a diamond in the rough, now make sure you keep him that way.

If the Bengals run him into the ground, expect him to do great this year, but poorly next year. And their whole offense will suffer next year as a result unless some serious changes/precautions are made.

If youre the Bengals, you don't want to be a one year wonder. Protect Benson. Take some carries off his shoulders.

Wait a week, then we'll see what the Bengals do. Benson runs more in big games such as the Baltimore contests, and he ran for 37 times against the Bears due to an injury to backup Bernard Scott and the inactive status of Brian Leonard. In some big games, the Bengals have needed Benson to keep on going as they tried to protect leads or run clock off.

Next week in Pittsburgh will be similar I'm sure, but make sure to watch for rookie Bernard Scott who should be fully healthy and willing to provide a more elusive counterpart to Benson. Expect Scott and 3rd Down back Brian Leonard to be a big part in the team's future plans moving into late November and December as the team faces competition from some of the worst rush defenses in the league (Oakland - 29th, Cleveland - 31st, Kansas City - 28th.)

Also, I feel like it should be noted that Benson doesn't take all too many big hits in the running game compared to some others. He runs compact and low to the ground and generally it has reduced and helped him absorb the normal wear and tear you'd expect.

Ravens1991
11-10-2009, 01:06 PM
good point BBD I was pissed when I heard Ryan interviewed for NY the week of the Steelers game, I cant bash the guy for looking 4 a promotion but still.

Also good points on Ryan, I would take him but I feel he is getting overrated but he will be very good in the NFL.

How do you feel on Flacco in his 2nd year? It will be a great QB debate Ryan VS. Flacco

CC.SD
11-10-2009, 01:08 PM
Let me bounce this off of you: His second year of starting is reminding me a lot of Philip Rivers' sophomore campaign. Both are similar players in both physical talent and football IQ.

In 2007 Philip Rivers had a hard time handling pressure, throwing while getting hit, eventually he learned how to handle it but he threw a lot of interceptions and did not look very sharp that year. The same thing is happening to Ryan; the pass protection hasn't been there and he has sped up his play and is making ill-advised throws. I think he will figure it out eventually though, I am far from worried.


-

I was always told quarterbacks needed around 30 starts to really start showing their true colors. Initially I was doubtful but Drew Brees hit that number in 2004 and took off like a rocket, and I became a believer. Rivers showed some serious dominance in 2006, but his 07 campaign was as you said; right around that time he hit that number of starts and turned in what I considered an MVP caliber 08. I'm sure there are other examples and that Matty will fit into that category as well.

bigbluedefense
11-10-2009, 01:08 PM
I love the way Chris Johnson, Ray Rice and Maurice Jones-Drew play. It is slightly different from what the RB position has been about throughout history, but they are ultra-productive and run with surprising amount of power.

Same here, but I do think Young's presence will open up running lanes. I saw it first hand in Atlanta, where Michael Vick made Warrick Dunn and TJ Duckett look like excellent runners.

What about Keith Rivers?

Speaking of linebackers, albeit a different position, have you seen much of my boy Curtis Lofton? He is your kind of player, my man. He is leading the league in tackles and every last one of them has been a bone-crusher.

Let me bounce this off of you: His second year of starting is reminding me a lot of Philip Rivers' sophomore campaign. Both are similar players in both physical talent and football IQ.

In 2007 Philip Rivers had a hard time handling pressure, throwing while getting hit, eventually he learned how to handle it but he threw a lot of interceptions and did not look very sharp that year. The same thing is happening to Ryan; the pass protection hasn't been there and he has sped up his play and is making ill-advised throws. I think he will figure it out eventually though, I am far from worried.

I don't like the Wildcat really. We ran it with Vick in 2006 and had pretty good success, Miami is doing it well the last two years, but you need a certain kind of rushing talent to make it work. I think that is why that Miami (who has Brown, Williams and a road-grading line) has had success while other teams have not.

-

I forgot about Rivers. He's a stud. Add him to the list.

Curtis Lofton is developing into a great MIKE. He's another guy who's getting overlooked.

I have no doubt in my mind that Matt Ryan will bounce back and play like a stud again. No doubt.

You bring up a great point on the wildcat. The reason why Miami is so successful with it is because they have the perfect personnel to run it, and they have practiced it more than anybody. Practice makes perfect.

Having that said, theyre not the only team in the NFL with a roadgrading oline and 2 great backs. I mean, to me, Carolina SCREAMS wildcat, and they don't use it that much.

I think plenty of teams can use it, they just have to be more committed to practicing it. You can't just practice it a couple of times in practice a week and expect to do it well. It has to be preached and practiced just like anything else.

Im a believer in the wildcat. I think its only going to get better.

bigbluedefense
11-10-2009, 01:13 PM
Wait a week, then we'll see what the Bengals do. Benson runs more in big games such as the Baltimore contests, and he ran for 37 times against the Bears due to an injury to backup Bernard Scott and the inactive status of Brian Leonard. In some big games, the Bengals have needed Benson to keep on going as they tried to protect leads or run clock off.

Next week in Pittsburgh will be similar I'm sure, but make sure to watch for rookie Bernard Scott who should be fully healthy and willing to provide a more elusive counterpart to Benson. Expect Scott and 3rd Down back Brian Leonard to be a big part in the team's future plans moving into late November and December as the team faces competition from some of the worst rush defenses in the league (Oakland - 29th, Cleveland - 31st, Kansas City - 28th.)

Also, I feel like it should be noted that Benson doesn't take all too many big hits in the running game compared to some others. He runs compact and low to the ground and generally it has reduced and helped him absorb the normal wear and tear you'd expect.

Yeah, I want to keep an eye on that. I expect him to get another 30+ carries against the Steelers. This game can determine the rest of the season. Its huge.

good point BBD I was pissed when I heard Ryan interviewed for NY the week of the Steelers game, I cant bash the guy for looking 4 a promotion but still.

Also good points on Ryan, I would take him but I feel he is getting overrated but he will be very good in the NFL.

How do you feel on Flacco in his 2nd year? It will be a great QB debate Ryan VS. Flacco

Well, I personally thought Flacco would have a major sophomore slump, so he's exceeding my expectations. Ryan is actually doing a little worse than I expected, but i had higher expectations for Ryan this year than I did for Flacco.

But both are great, and are going to be great qbs in this league. You can't go wrong with either of them, and arguing who's better is pretty pointless. Both teams are very happy with who they have, and thats all that counts.

ThePudge
11-10-2009, 01:23 PM
Yeah, I want to keep an eye on that. I expect him to get another 30+ carries against the Steelers. This game can determine the rest of the season. Its huge.

To be honest, last week's game was bigger for the Bengals. I want to beat the Steelers and really set the tone in the AFC North, and hell, the AFC. Still, last week's game was far more necessary to win.

If you look into the Bengals second half of the year, we have four easy-win games (@ Oakland, Detroit, Cleveland, Kansas City,) and four tougher contests (@ Pittsburgh, @ San Diego , @ Minnesota, and @ New York Jets). I'll say worst case scenario, for this team, is 10-6. That said, 10-6 should be a playoff spot. The win last week put the Bengals in position for a fairly easy playoff birth, and took a Ravens team (with dates looming against Pittsburgh x2, Indianapolis, in Green Bay, and Chicago) out of the hunt for time being.

This game could put Cincinnati on the fast track to an AFC North Championship and home playoff game, so it is big, but all things considered, last week's game may have been the biggest game on the Bengals schedule.

Auron
11-10-2009, 01:25 PM
Some points.

I think you can add Thomas Davis to that list of pure WILL backers in this league. It's a shame he tore his ACL during the game vs. the Saints but from all accounts he was having a great season, and in that game he was brilliant in dropping back in coverage and taking away Brees' options over the middle... Shockey, and Colston both struggled mightily in that game. Him along side Beason solidified a great LB unit... again big blow for them to lose a player like that.

Shame the Titans got out to that terrible start, it's good for that team they are still playing hard... agreed that Chris Johnson is a great back... I'm hoping Reggie Bush can somehow develop into being a back of similar caliber. He has a ways to go, but he has started making some strides vs. Carolina we got him more involved in the passing game and he made some nice conversions, also he's being less hesitant with his runs but we'll have to see how his season goes along. (I have a feeling more touches are in store for him)

I think Ryan will be fine, he's just hitting a rocky stretch that all QBs go through at some point and trying to figure how to play out of it. Not every pass play is going to go in your favor.

How do you guys see the playoff picture playing out? Cincinnati and Pittsburgh (both 6-2) have a big upcoming game that can give either the early edge on the AFC North. Can the Ravens rebound to earn a playoff spot? Can Houston, San Diego edge their way into the playoffs? Denver has had some mid-season struggles do they get their stuff back together?

In the NFC it's a little more clear cut but things can always change. I think Atlanta makes a clear push... but other then that who steps up? Is it too late for the Giants? who are the Eagles? while teams like the Bears, Packers, 49ers have really plummeted the past few weeks.

Shiver
11-10-2009, 01:32 PM
How do you guys see the playoff picture playing out? Cincinnati and Pittsburgh (both 6-2) have a big upcoming game that can give either the early edge on the AFC North. Can the Ravens rebound to earn a playoff spot? Can Houston, San Diego edge their way into the playoffs? Denver has had some mid-season struggles do they get their stuff back together?

Houston has a very easy schedule, they only play two winning teams from here on out. They play the Colts at home which they can win and the Patriots in week 17 which I doubt New England has their studs out there. They should be able to go at least 4-1 against Tennessee, Jacksonville, Miami, Seattle and St Louis.

San Diego has a tougher road, they play the Eagles, Bengals at home and the Broncos and Cowboys on the road. I wouldn't be surprised if San Diego passes Denver for the AFC West though.

In the NFC it's a little more clear cut but things can always change. I think Atlanta makes a clear push... but other then that who steps up? Is it too late for the Giants? who are the Eagles? while teams like the Bears, Packers, 49ers have really plummeted the past few weeks.It is going to be fascinating to see how New York and Philadelphia will handle the schedules in front of them, it is pretty brutal as far as I am concerned.

21ST
11-10-2009, 01:33 PM
Great job like always although i would like to hear your thoughts on some of the rookies

bigbluedefense
11-10-2009, 01:41 PM
Some points.

I think you can add Thomas Davis to that list of pure WILL backers in this league. It's a shame he tore his ACL during the game vs. the Saints but from all accounts he was having a great season, and in that game he was brilliant in dropping back in coverage and taking away Brees' options over the middle... Shockey, and Colston both struggled mightily in that game. Him along side Beason solidified a great LB unit... again big blow for them to lose a player like that.

Shame the Titans got out to that terrible start, it's good for that team they are still playing hard... agreed that Chris Johnson is a great back... I'm hoping Reggie Bush can somehow develop into being a back of similar caliber. He has a ways to go, but he has started making some strides vs. Carolina we got him more involved in the passing game and he made some nice conversions, also he's being less hesitant with his runs but we'll have to see how his season goes along. (I have a feeling more touches are in store for him)

I think Ryan will be fine, he's just hitting a rocky stretch that all QBs go through at some point and trying to figure how to play out of it. Not every pass play is going to go in your favor.

How do you guys see the playoff picture playing out? Cincinnati and Pittsburgh (both 6-2) have a big upcoming game that can give either the early edge on the AFC North. Can the Ravens rebound to earn a playoff spot? Can Houston, San Diego edge their way into the playoffs? Denver has had some mid-season struggles do they get their stuff back together?

In the NFC it's a little more clear cut but things can always change. I think Atlanta makes a clear push... but other then that who steps up? Is it too late for the Giants? who are the Eagles? while teams like the Bears, Packers, 49ers have really plummeted the past few weeks.

I thought Thomas Davis was a SAM no?

Houston has a very easy schedule, they only play two winning teams from here on out. They play the Colts at home which they can win and the Patriots in week 17 which I doubt New England has their studs out there. They should be able to go at least 4-1 against Tennessee, Jacksonville, Miami, Seattle and St Louis.

San Diego has a tougher road, they play the Eagles, Bengals at home and the Broncos and Cowboys on the road. I wouldn't be surprised if San Diego passes Denver for the AFC West though.

It is going to be fascinating to see how New York and Philadelphia will handle the schedules in front of them, it is pretty brutal as far as I am concerned.

I think the winner of the AFC West makes the playoffs, the other team probably doesn't get the wildcard.

The Giants are in must win mode pretty much for the rest of the season. We can only lose 2 more games.

Great job like always although i would like to hear your thoughts on some of the rookies

Who you want to talk about? Name names.

21ST
11-10-2009, 01:45 PM
I thought Thomas Davis was a SAM no?



I think the winner of the AFC West makes the playoffs, the other team probably doesn't get the wildcard.

The Giants are in must win mode pretty much for the rest of the season. We can only lose 2 more games.



Who you want to talk about? Name names.

who are your top 5 on offense and defense

Auron
11-10-2009, 01:56 PM
I thought Thomas Davis was a SAM no?

He's probably listed as a SAM my bad, but in the game against the Saints the Panthers used him very much as a WILL backer, dropping him to shade the shallow routes away from our underneath receivers, and he had a lot of flat responsibilities to cover the screens, swings to Bush, Pierre Thomas... there was one play where he really showed off his athleticism down by the redzone he just knifed through a gap to tackle Pierre Thomas for a big time loss.

either way with his loss they lose a lot of versatility.

bigbluedefense
11-10-2009, 01:58 PM
who are your top 5 on offense and defense

Thats tough.

To be honest, I haven't been keeping up with all the rookies that much this year. I'll give it a try, but I don't feel entirely confident in this list.

Offense

-Mike Wallace
-Mark Sanchez
-Percy Harvin
-Michael Oher
-tie between Hakeem Nicks and Jeremy Maclin

I haven't been overly impressed by any rookie RBs yet. It really is more of a WR class thing than anything else.

Defense

-Rey Maluaga
-Brian Orakpo
-Sean Smith
-Aaron Curry
-Tyson Jackson

bigbluedefense
11-10-2009, 01:59 PM
He's probably listed as a SAM my bad, but in the game against the Saints the Panthers used him very much as a WILL backer, dropping him to shade the shallow routes away from our underneath receivers, and he had a lot of flat responsibilities to cover the screens, swings to Bush, Pierre Thomas... there was one play where he really showed off his athleticism down by the redzone he just knifed through a gap to tackle Pierre Thomas for a big time loss.

either way with his loss they lose a lot of versatility.

yeah Im a big Thomas Davis fan, just wasn't sure what he was classified under.

his loss is a big blow.

ThePudge
11-10-2009, 02:00 PM
Defense

-Rey Maluaga
-Brian Orakpo
-Sean Smith
-Aaron Curry
-Tyson Jackson

Rey has been a good starter for us, though he isn't yet the force he has been projected to be in the long run. The Texans' Brian Cushing has probably been better than any thus far.

Shiver
11-10-2009, 02:02 PM
Thats tough.

To be honest, I haven't been keeping up with all the rookies that much this year. I'll give it a try, but I don't feel entirely confident in this list.

Offense

-Mike Wallace
-Mark Sanchez
-Percy Harvin
-Michael Oher
-tie between Hakeem Nicks and Jeremy Maclin

I haven't been overly impressed by any rookie RBs yet. It really is more of a WR class thing than anything else.

Defense

-Rey Maluaga
-Brian Orakpo
-Sean Smith
-Aaron Curry
-Tyson Jackson


Dude, where is Brian Cushing and Jarius Byrd?

Giantsfan1080
11-10-2009, 02:02 PM
You missed Byrd and Cushing BBD. They have been monsters this year and are the 2 frontrunners for DROY.

bigbluedefense
11-10-2009, 02:03 PM
Yeah I totally forgot about those 2. They definitely deserve to be on the list.

bigbluedefense
11-10-2009, 02:06 PM
Crap, I knew I forgot some stuff. I wanted to talk about Jay Ratliff and Vincent Jackson.

Oh well, I'll save them for next time.

Giantsfan1080
11-10-2009, 02:08 PM
Crap, I knew I forgot some stuff. I wanted to talk about Jay Ratliff and Vincent Jackson.

Oh well, I'll save them for next time.

Jackson has been excellent. He's improved every year and the Chargers have done a great job developing him into a #1 WR. Rivers to Jackson is going to be around for a long time. He knows how to use his body to his advantage and he looks like a very good route runner.

terribletowel39
11-10-2009, 02:11 PM
Offense

-Mike Wallace
-Mark Sanchez
-Percy Harvin
-Michael Oher
-tie between Hakeem Nicks and Jeremy Maclin

Mike Wallace has been awesome indeed. I really like how he has come in and stepped up big for the Steelers. He is so ridiculously fast it isn't even fair. As he gets more and more involved with the offense, he will be able to truly shine.

I would give the OROY to Harvin as of right now though.

A Perfect Score
11-10-2009, 02:22 PM
Crap, I knew I forgot some stuff. I wanted to talk about Jay Ratliff and Vincent Jackson.

Oh well, I'll save them for next time.

I have been meaning to bring this up somewhere as well. Every time I have watched the Cowboys, Ratliff has far and away been the most impressive player on that defense. From what I understand, he has been playing out of position at NT, but if I were the Cowboys, Id never move him, cause hes a force to be reckoned with. I have seen about 5 Cowboys games this year, and Ratliff has been lights out in all of them.

bigbluedefense
11-10-2009, 02:51 PM
Vincent Jackson is the new Plaxico Burress. The guy is a monster. He runs great routes, hes huge, he's strong, he's an incredible deep threat.

You just have to throw it up there. Their entire pass game is literally jump ball. Its almost impossible to defend. Whoever has single coverage, Rivers just has to throw it up to them.

Its a deadly passing attack.

Jay Ratliff is the new Darnell Dockett. In fact, he's identical to Dockett. They're the same player. I felt Dockett was the most underrated DT in the game last year, Ratliff is the most underrated DT in the game this year.

He's identical to Dockett. He'd be even better at DE in the 3-4, just like Dockett.

Saints-Tigers
11-10-2009, 02:54 PM
I didn't get any thoughts on this before, anyone want to take it?



On that note, I want to hear from someone more medically educated than I am, but from what I know from basketball, Microfracture is always a serious surgery for a guy that relies on his athletic ability like Reggie does, but the usual deal is, it's 1 year of rehab and recovery, and then they can start playing, but you don't expect the knee to be back to 100% until around 2 years after the surgery.

I've never seen a player play until at LEAST the 1 year mark. Reggie had his surgery in mid-december of 2008, and he was back in june of 2009, that's not even 7 months. Is this a good sign that he recovered faster than expected, or did he come back too soon?

Granted he still is explosive, but he doesn't look quite as quick as he did last season before he got injured, when he was leading the league in touchdowns....

I guess we'll see what happens, but the Saints still seem to be being very cautious about it, because he gets taken from the game completely once we are ahead, and even when he starts out running well, they still don't feed him the ball when he looks to be flowing.

bigbluedefense
11-10-2009, 02:56 PM
I didn't get any thoughts on this before, anyone want to take it?

i can't really speak on it as an expert, but players almost never come back from microfracture surgery with the same explosion.

from what i've seen. i could be wrong.

Kenny Phillips had the same surgery to correct a potentially career ending injury. So I'm also concerned about its long term effects.

Saints-Tigers
11-10-2009, 02:58 PM
I was kinda worried, then Reggie dove to the endzone from like 25 feet out, but I can't help but worry about him coming back that soon. I know Greg Oden, Amare Stoudemire, Chris Webber, and Jason Kidd all came back at just about the 1 year mark.

scottyboy
11-10-2009, 03:00 PM
BBD, no mention of Raymell baby? :(

and Bengals need to give Leonard more touches. they did last week, he's a damn good runner.
Fun fact: he outscored Jonathan Stewart in fantasy football this past week.
RUTGERS WIN!

bigbluedefense
11-10-2009, 03:01 PM
I was kinda worried, then Reggie dove to the endzone from like 25 feet out, but I can't help but worry about him coming back that soon. I know Greg Oden, Amare Stoudemire, Chris Webber, and Jason Kidd all came back at just about the 1 year mark.

None were ever the same after that surgery too. Even Amare. Amare was an absolute monster before his surgery. I thought he'd be the next best thing at PF.

But that surgery killed his explosion. He's not the same anymore.

Bush is still explosive. But not as much as he used to be. In a way its good for him, now he has to use some vision instead of trying to burn the edge every time.

bigbluedefense
11-10-2009, 03:02 PM
BBD, no mention of Raymell baby? :(

and Bengals need to give Leonard more touches. they did last week, he's a damn good runner.
Fun fact: he outscored Jonathan Stewart in fantasy football this past week.
RUTGERS WIN!

just typing his name out would give me premature ejaculation. so i tried refraining.

i don't know how you do it Scotty. unless youre ok with it happening.

Shiver
11-10-2009, 03:09 PM
Vincent Jackson is like Plaxico Burress, minus the attitude problems and the poor catch %.

scottyboy
11-10-2009, 03:10 PM
just typing his name out would give me premature ejaculation. so i tried refraining.

i don't know how you do it Scotty. unless youre ok with it happening.

every time I post makes me change my pants.
I do laundry daily. I steal my roomie's quarters, it gets bad.

scottyboy
11-10-2009, 03:11 PM
Vincent Jackson is like Plaxico Burress, minus the attitude problems and the poor catch %.

and the bullet in his leg

vikes_28
11-10-2009, 03:12 PM
Nice write up. I'm going to comment on what you said about bye weeks in the playoffs. I agree. And you should know all about this. See 2001(?) NFC Championship game. Vikings vs Giants. Giants won 41-0. I would be just fine with Vikings having the 3rd seed in the NFC this year. I have a feeling they will crumple late. If they get the bye, they will crumple in the divisional round.

Saints-Tigers
11-10-2009, 03:19 PM
People keep saying that about Amare, but I disagree, his best and most efficient season (at the basket and overall) was post surgery.

Right now he looks less explosive, but before the eye injury, he was scorching, but after that he had to lay flat on his stomach for like months to drain his eye... He hasn't been able to regain his explosion, but he did return to form post-surgery.

Like I said though, Reggie seems close enough now, that I'm comfortable that he'll be much better at this same point next season. I'm still worried about long term impact it could have IF he rushed back.

Shiver
11-10-2009, 03:55 PM
Having that said, theyre not the only team in the NFL with a roadgrading oline and 2 great backs. I mean, to me, Carolina SCREAMS wildcat, and they don't use it that much.

I think plenty of teams can use it, they just have to be more committed to practicing it. You can't just practice it a couple of times in practice a week and expect to do it well. It has to be preached and practiced just like anything else.

Im a believer in the wildcat. I think its only going to get better.

I wonder what would happen if the Raiders decided to forget about Jamarcus Russell and go with a Wildhog with Darren McFadden, Justin Fargas and Michael Bush.

If the Bills had a better line they would be ideal for the Wildcat as well.

Ravens1991
11-10-2009, 05:24 PM
BBD, no mention of Raymell baby? :(

and Bengals need to give Leonard more touches. they did last week, he's a damn good runner.
Fun fact: he outscored Jonathan Stewart in fantasy football this past week.
RUTGERS WIN!

All you need to know is Rice is a freaking beast, he goes 100% and doesnt stop moving on the inside runs, he is possibly the most elusive player in the open field he can catch out of the backfield. The reason he had a bad game against Bengals was because they dominated the LOS so he had no where to run, and Hall/Joseph were able to shut down our WR 1 on 1 so they were planning for his screens out of the backfield. He is a beast

MichaelJordanEberle (sabf)
11-10-2009, 06:05 PM
I was gonna make a thoughts thread, but decided it was a waste because I only had one.

Brett Kern is the goddam MVP.

His record with the Broncos? 6-0.
His record with the Titans? 2-0.

Broncos record since he left? 0-2.
Titans record before he arrived? 0-6.

...the ****?

MichaelJordanEberle (sabf)
11-10-2009, 06:08 PM
People keep saying that about Amare, but I disagree, his best and most efficient season (at the basket and overall) was post surgery.

Right now he looks less explosive, but before the eye injury, he was scorching, but after that he had to lay flat on his stomach for like months to drain his eye... He hasn't been able to regain his explosion, but he did return to form post-surgery.

Like I said though, Reggie seems close enough now, that I'm comfortable that he'll be much better at this same point next season. I'm still worried about long term impact it could have IF he rushed back.

I think the year thing works. Explosion might not FULLY return, but in the case of Bush and Amare, they have explosion to spare. How's Oden looking this season btw? He's a year removed now. Last year he just looked sluggish out there and since he was used to being so quick I think that accounts for most of his foul problems from last season.

D-Unit
11-10-2009, 06:11 PM
Vincent Jackson is the new Plaxico Burress. The guy is a monster. He runs great routes, hes huge, he's strong, he's an incredible deep threat.

You just have to throw it up there. Their entire pass game is literally jump ball. Its almost impossible to defend. Whoever has single coverage, Rivers just has to throw it up to them.

Its a deadly passing attack.

Jay Ratliff is the new Darnell Dockett. In fact, he's identical to Dockett. They're the same player. I felt Dockett was the most underrated DT in the game last year, Ratliff is the most underrated DT in the game this year.

He's identical to Dockett. He'd be even better at DE in the 3-4, just like Dockett.
Never made the connection to Dockett... Always admired Dockett from afar... Nice to know I got someone like him in my back pocket. ;)

APS, Dallas lately has started to move Ratliff all along the DL. It's been working like a charm.

bigbluedefense
11-10-2009, 07:19 PM
This sums up the Raiders.

vPCIOfFpnYo&autoplay=1

To steal from Bill Simmons, ladies and gentlemen, your 2009 Oakland Raiders!


Just imagine what Ratliff would do with a real NT next to him.

the decider13
11-10-2009, 07:23 PM
I was gonna make a thoughts thread, but decided it was a waste because I only had one.

Brett Kern is the goddam MVP.

His record with the Broncos? 6-0.
His record with the Titans? 2-0.

Broncos record since he left? 0-2.
Titans record before he arrived? 0-6.

...the ****?

This is the most important fact that no one knows about. I was thinking about how much I missed Kern last night. Berger is aweful now :(

Supporting Caste
11-10-2009, 07:31 PM
I agree about Benson. I am somewhat biased, though, in that I think he's just doomed to be a flash in the plan regardless of how many carries he gets. He's gonna tank any second now. The guy was flat out garbage every single season until this one.

Also, I'm not sure I'd say Dockett and Ratliff are the same players.

Ratliff is one of a kind IMO. The guy is probably under 290 but he's a phenomenal nose tackle because he's so incredibly strong and fierce. The insane thing about him is he is legitimately athletic enough to play 3-4 linebacker. I've never seen a nose tackle who is in pursuit past the second level so often.

Ratliff is just incredible. He's definitely a top 10 defender in the league IMO.

scottyboy
11-10-2009, 07:32 PM
All you need to know is Rice is a freaking beast, he goes 100% and doesnt stop moving on the inside runs, he is possibly the most elusive player in the open field he can catch out of the backfield. The reason he had a bad game against Bengals was because they dominated the LOS so he had no where to run, and Hall/Joseph were able to shut down our WR 1 on 1 so they were planning for his screens out of the backfield. He is a beast

you're telling ME this? child please :)

the decider13
11-10-2009, 07:33 PM
I agree about Benson. I am somewhat biased, though, in that I think he's just doomed to be a flash in the plan regardless of how many carries he gets. He's gonna tank any second now. The guy was flat out garbage every single season until this one.

That's not a good way to look at it I don't think. He was terrible in Chicago sure, but so was every player on Chicago's offense. He was excellent at Texas, there was a reason he was drafted in the top 5.

He's always had the talent, it just never came out. Some guys develop slow. I wouldn't expect any slowdown from him.

bigbluedefense
11-10-2009, 07:40 PM
I agree about Benson. I am somewhat biased, though, in that I think he's just doomed to be a flash in the plan regardless of how many carries he gets. He's gonna tank any second now. The guy was flat out garbage every single season until this one.

Also, I'm not sure I'd say Dockett and Ratliff are the same players.

Ratliff is one of a kind IMO. The guy is probably under 290 but he's a phenomenal nose tackle because he's so incredibly strong and fierce. The insane thing about him is he is legitimately athletic enough to play 3-4 linebacker. I've never seen a nose tackle who is in pursuit past the second level so often.

Ratliff is just incredible. He's definitely a top 10 defender in the league IMO.

Dockett has played some NT for the Cardinals as well.

I think theyre pretty much the same player. Dockett might be a little stronger, Ratliff a little quicker.

bigbluedefense
11-10-2009, 07:45 PM
That's not a good way to look at it I don't think. He was terrible in Chicago sure, but so was every player on Chicago's offense. He was excellent at Texas, there was a reason he was drafted in the top 5.

He's always had the talent, it just never came out. Some guys develop slow. I wouldn't expect any slowdown from him.

Benson always had the talent. Immaturity and injuries are the reasons why he failed.

But once he had it all taken away from him, the light came on. For his sake, let's hope it stays on. He has all the talent in the world, he just needs to keep his head on straight.

bigbluedefense
11-10-2009, 07:47 PM
Nobody wants to talk about Trent Cole huh?

I guess I'm the only one who feels he's that good?

Auron
11-10-2009, 07:50 PM
I think Benson was finally put in the right situation for him... I remember hearing stories back when he first came into Chicago after his hold out he was perceived as a Prima-donna rookie, and his teammates didn't like him or support him at all. (even heard some Defensive players might have purposely been extra physical with him in practice to try and rough him up)

I think Marvin Lewis and that team have embraced him since coming to Cincinnati and truly gave him that 2nd chance. Now how will this increased work load effect him down the line? We'll just have to see... but he's their workhorse and opens up the Play-Action game for Carson Palmer so I don't see them letting up on his carries anytime soon.

Shiver
11-10-2009, 07:50 PM
He is really good, it just is hard to get noticed in a league full of short and stocky pass rushing machines.

bigbluedefense
11-10-2009, 07:52 PM
I think Benson was finally put in the right situation for him... I remember hearing stories back when he first came into Chicago after his hold out he was perceived as a Prima-donna rookie, and his teammates didn't like him or support him at all. (even heard some Defensive players might have purposely been extra physical with him in practice to try and rough him up)

I think Marvin Lewis and that team have embraced him since coming to Cincinnati and truly gave him that 2nd chance. Now how will this increased work load effect him down the line? We'll just have to see... but he's their workhorse and opens up the Play-Action game for Carson Palmer so I don't see them letting up on his carries anytime soon.

I don't either. And I think its going to be a terrible mistake.

Although a Cincy fan posted in here and pointed out that they can give him a rest after the Steelers game. They play some soft opponents.

But the way their offense is built, they're built around Benson right now. So I don't know how much you can really let up off his shoulders without seeing a dropoff in offensive (and defensive) production

Shiver
11-10-2009, 07:53 PM
Cedric Benson can handle the workload... for one season. If they don't add another capable back to lighten the load in the future then I would worry.

Supporting Caste
11-10-2009, 07:57 PM
He already has a ton of tread on his tires from his days at Texas alone. I'd worry about him shutting down within the next few weeks.

D-Unit
11-10-2009, 08:13 PM
Just imagine what Ratliff would do with a real NT next to him.
Oh gosh... If he were next to Vince Wilfork, Casey Hampton, Kris Jenkins, Shaun Rogers or Haloti Ngata he would be ... be... be umm.... don't even know the word. Supercalifragilisticexpialadocious x 100 million google??? Yeah, maybe that. LOL.
:D

ThePudge
11-10-2009, 08:14 PM
But the way their offense is built, they're built around Benson right now. So I don't know how much you can really let up off his shoulders without seeing a dropoff in offensive (and defensive) production

Their offense is still built around Carson Palmer, whether we're running the football or throwing the football. Palmer wants this to be a running team for obvious reasons, but he's our backbone and go-to guy. Benson has paced this offense this year, but Palmer's the beating heart of that unit and the entire Bengals team.

Bernard Scott is healthy once again, as I said, and is expected to have his load increased to about 5-10 touches a game. Brian Leonard also should be expected to see a small rise in looks to about 6-8 per game. Benson's already a two down back because of the emergence of Brian Leonard as a 3rd Down back and you can expect that Bernard Scott is about to take an occasional series away from him. If you're looking for a little surprise rookie in the second half of year, look no further.

Expect the team to try to put the ball in Benson's hands right around 25 times next week. They still want to pace the game with a running attack with Benson, but they will be aiming to show Pittsburgh something they haven't seen so much of. That being said, Bernard Scott should get a few touches at RB in this game, and Brian Leonard should be expected to continue to be a focus on 3rd Down.

I know what you're saying with Benson and I think the Bengals agree. Don't automatically assume that's how it'll be all year, wait and see what happens in coming weeks against Pittsburgh, Oakland, Cleveland, and Detroit.

Mr.Regular
11-10-2009, 08:43 PM
Nobody wants to talk about Trent Cole huh?

I guess I'm the only one who feels he's that good?
Trent Cole is a beast. Very underrated. Top tier DE for sure.

themaninblack
11-10-2009, 08:57 PM
Yea, I think now that the passing game has kind of come around Bensons carries should be more reasonable especially with Scott coming back healthy. Scott is a VERY talented young player who could really complement Benson perfectly. I would really like to see him get more of a chance and I think he was well on his way to that before he got injured. Hopefully we see that emergence Sunday against the Stillers.

Bengalsrocket
11-10-2009, 09:34 PM
This offense is much different from the days of Rudi johnson. The only reason Benson is on pace for nearly 400 carries is because of injuries. The idea coming into the season was going to be a 3 headed monster.

It looks bad now because in the last two games he got over 30 carries, but those are the only two games with 30 carries. He got 30 carries in the Chicago game because of injuries and in Baltimore we had to protect a very important lead. Knocking Baltimore off is huge for our chances for a wild card spot should Pittsburgh when the division.

Last time we played Pittsburgh, Benson only got 16 carries. We didn't overload him against that tough defense despite being down the entire game. I expect Scott and Leonard to be back and healthy and Benson to have a similar performance.

Saints-Tigers
11-10-2009, 09:38 PM
I think the year thing works. Explosion might not FULLY return, but in the case of Bush and Amare, they have explosion to spare. How's Oden looking this season btw? He's a year removed now. Last year he just looked sluggish out there and since he was used to being so quick I think that accounts for most of his foul problems from last season.

Oden is like an entirely new player this season on defense, he's heavier than he was in college, and still looks explosive.

CC.SD
11-10-2009, 09:39 PM
Since we have so may Bengal fans in this thread, what is the status on Andre Smith?

CC.SD
11-10-2009, 09:41 PM
This sums up the Raiders.

vPCIOfFpnYo&autoplay=1

To steal from Bill Simmons, ladies and gentlemen, your 2009 Oakland Raiders!


Just imagine what Ratliff would do with a real NT next to him.

This clip is fun but to be fair they were definitely pushed into each other. Within 5 yards!

Bengalsrocket
11-10-2009, 09:53 PM
Since we have so may Bengal fans in this thread, what is the status on Andre Smith?

To be honest, I don't think he will make the line up at all this year unless there is an injury at RT. Right now Dennis Roland is starting at RT, this guy is a 6'9, 325 lb, 2nd year starter who has been incredibly impressive. It wouldn't be unfair to say that he probably is just making good use of his size rather than having great technique, but it's working for our run game.

Our offensive line coach (and assistant head coach) is Paul Alexander. And the impression I get from his interviews is that he doesn't want to ruin the current chemistry this line has, even if it means we have to keep our 1st round pick on the bench.

If Andre ever gets caught up to speed, it's not impossible for him to crack the starting line up, I just find it very unlikely at this point. We'll see I suppose.

themaninblack
11-10-2009, 09:53 PM
Since we have so may Bengal fans in this thread, what is the status on Andre Smith?

He just started practicing last week. Probably a couple of weeks before we see him but who knows. haven't really heard too much.

CC.SD
11-10-2009, 10:00 PM
Interesting to hear about that RT manbeast...whatever the Bengals are doing they shouldn't change it right now, it's obviously working and O-line is all about harmony between the big uglies. I like Andre quite a bit though, what a shame.

SchizophrenicBatman
11-10-2009, 10:16 PM
Thomas Davis was moved to the weakside this year (he really shouldve never been playing strong). He's blossomed under Ron Meeks this year, and his torn ACL pretty much ended any chance Carolina had

- Thought the Ryan slump was predictable this year. He was just too good too fast and he doesn't have the elite physical attributes to keep it up without some learning curve. The Rivers comparison I kind of like. It amazes me how well Rivers throws the ball downfield with his arm strength.

- Trent Cole being good is nothing new, though he certainly hasnt gotten the pub he deserves when he's been good for a while now

- I told you guys Curtis Lofton was good during that draft! He had those same special qualities I saw in Willis and DeMeco Ryans in college. No one listened

- Is it just me or has every offensive player who's gotten off the Bears done better than expected? Orton, Muhammad, Berrian, Benson, etc

Xenos
11-10-2009, 10:45 PM
Let me bounce this off of you: His second year of starting is reminding me a lot of Philip Rivers' sophomore campaign. Both are similar players in both physical talent and football IQ.

In 2007 Philip Rivers had a hard time handling pressure, throwing while getting hit, eventually he learned how to handle it but he threw a lot of interceptions and did not look very sharp that year. The same thing is happening to Ryan; the pass protection hasn't been there and he has sped up his play and is making ill-advised throws. I think he will figure it out eventually though, I am far from worried.

-
I can tell you that there were a variety of reasons for why Rivers didn't do well in his second year. One was that he was still recovering from the lisc franc injury that he sustained in the last game of the 2006 season against the Cardinals. He had problems setting his feet and throwing because of it. Perhaps, the other reason was that he was trying to learn Norv's offense, which was 100 times more difficult than Cameron's. He kept thinking too much instead of reacting. It wasn't until the Raven's game that he finally got it.

Xenos
11-10-2009, 11:12 PM
Jackson has been excellent. He's improved every year and the Chargers have done a great job developing him into a #1 WR. Rivers to Jackson is going to be around for a long time. He knows how to use his body to his advantage and he looks like a very good route runner.
One of the reasons the Chargers picked up Jackson was because he not only played like the stereotypical big receiver, but he had this uncanny ability to make himself smaller. That is to say he could run routes and cut like a receiver half his size. He's certainly improving in that area.

ThePudge
11-10-2009, 11:42 PM
I agree about Benson. I am somewhat biased, though, in that I think he's just doomed to be a flash in the plan regardless of how many carries he gets. He's gonna tank any second now. The guy was flat out garbage every single season until this one.

He was pretty good last year finishing up with three consecutive 100 total yard performances (161-171-130). He has emerged as a team leader both on and off the field in Cincinnati since arriving. Still some Benson hate out there, which is odd if they watched the games. There's a lot to like in him and the Bengals are genuinely lucky he was available to be signed. The guy is a feature back.

Everyone knows about toughness, his power, his durability, but none of those qualities really define Benson. Cedric's game is defined most by vision and explosiveness. For a bigger back by today's NFL standards, he sees and squeezes through remarkably small holes and picks up extra yards after contact, he also reads his blocks well and finds running lanes. When he finds these lanes and holes, Benson is remarkably explosive, and dynamic. It's just a matter until he breaks a big run off. He's much faster than he's given credit for and will often make the first/second man miss. He has an innate knack for falling forward after contact as well.

I've said it more than once, and I have no problem saying it again, if you haven't seen Benson, I suggest you try, because he's one of the league's premier backs right now. He's still young with a relatively low tread on his tires in the NFL, so I wouldn't be quick to dismiss him. The Bengals are likely to reduce his carries and role soon, so the foreseeable future looks good.

Saints-Tigers
11-11-2009, 12:01 AM
I always thought Benson's problems were more on the Bears than on him. Running back talent is easy to evaluate, and it doesn't just go away unless injury saps the athletic ability.

BlindSite
11-11-2009, 02:51 AM
-The traditional 4-3 WILL is a dying breed. I've realized this the past couple of weeks. We don't see many Derrick Brooks of the world anymore. Even players in college are not coming out in that mold anymore.

Why? Bc of the popularity of the 3-4 defense. Most kids in college are now developing their bodies to be 240 lbs, so they can either be 3-4 ILBs or 4-3 MIKEs.

Those speedy 4-3 WILLs are becoming rarer and rarer. The last guy that comes to mind that fit that profile coming out to me was Lawrence Timmons. And oddly enough, he gets drafted into a 3-4 and has to pack on weight and develop his body in that scheme.

The only 2 guys I can think of that are major players as traditional 4-3 WILLs in today's game are Lance Briggs (the prototype), and Michael Boley (he's been a complete stud for us, but just hasn't been healthy).


Will Witherspoon and Thomas Davis immediately spring to mind. We had witherspoon, when he left the team drafted beason, when he moved to middle, we moved Davis, who up until destroying his knee the other day was playing like one of the best in the league and was being touted as a pro bowler.

Witherspoon was a force in Carolina, and despite the issues in St Louis turned in decent enough performances, in Philadelphia he's been a wrecking machine and had a massive impact his first week there and was every where against the Cowboys.

It's not that the breed is dying it's that the popularity of the 34 has lead to a lot of OLBs in the 34 being small defensive ends and any talented linebackers in that scheme being shifted into the middle where it's far more difficult for their talent to shine through.

Jerod Mayo would be awesome as an WILL linebacker in most situations and before he left atlanta Keith Brooking was the definition of perennial pro-bowler.

There's plenty of guys recently and still around who play the roll amazingly well, it's just when someone says Outside linebacker these days they automatically assume that means pass rusher.

Saints-Tigers
11-11-2009, 03:34 AM
Also, I think if Derrick Johnson ever goes to a team that properly utilizes him, he could be the best outside LB we've seen in some time.

NY+Giants=NYG
11-11-2009, 09:10 AM
Bbd! Bbd! Bbd!

619
11-11-2009, 09:14 AM
Also, I think if Derrick Johnson ever goes to a team that properly utilizes him, he could be the best outside LB we've seen in some time.

Trade him to Oakland! He would fill a major need, and fit perfectly with our defensive scheme. He could be our Julian Peterson. We're currently missing that impact guy in John Marshall's system.

bigbluedefense
11-11-2009, 09:43 AM
Question for Bengals fans:

What exactly are you guys doing on defense that is making the unit so successful? I know you have 2 solid CBs, you have a great LB core, and a solid run stuffing DT, but it just seems to me that this defense is overachieving right now.

Is it good coaching? Change in style? From observing from afar, it doesn't seem like theres really any trickery involved with the Bengals defense. It seems pretty vanilla to be honest. But its working.

Perhaps I'm underrating your pass rush?

_____________

Will Witherspoon has been a great player the past couple of years. But I've looked at him more as a MIKE than a WILL. And in Philly, he's a MIKE.

MichaelJordanEberle (sabf)
11-11-2009, 10:29 AM
Question for Bengals fans:

What exactly are you guys doing on defense that is making the unit so successful? I know you have 2 solid CBs, you have a great LB core, and a solid run stuffing DT, but it just seems to me that this defense is overachieving right now.

Is it good coaching? Change in style? From observing from afar, it doesn't seem like theres really any trickery involved with the Bengals defense. It seems pretty vanilla to be honest. But its working.

Perhaps I'm underrating your pass rush?

_____________

Will Witherspoon has been a great player the past couple of years. But I've looked at him more as a MIKE than a WILL. And in Philly, he's a MIKE.

I'm surprised by the Bengals D, too. I thought for sure the clock struck midnight on them when Odom went down. But nope.

themaninblack
11-11-2009, 10:59 AM
I think really it is just the mentality that the D plays with more than anything right now. They've got a pretty fair amount of talent at key spots and some pretty good depth. Zimmer has got this team playing with a lot of tenacity and they are very technically sound. Plus, I think people are just now finally seeing how great our Corners are. They pretty darn well last year without JJ or a pass rush to speak of. Zimmer has put a lot of work into that pass rush this year, and it has continued to produce without Odom.

Giantsfan1080
11-11-2009, 11:01 AM
I thought the Odom injury was really going to hurt the Bengals D but as we see it hasn't that much.

themaninblack
11-11-2009, 11:45 AM
It sure does hurt in the pass rush but we've still been able to get after it a bit. Tank has really helped in that regard up the middle so far. We still have Robert Geathers, Micheal Johnson, Johnathan Fanene, and Frostee Rucker at end who've all played rather well. Fanene has been somewhat of a revelation since coming in for Odom and it looks like MJ is finally starting to get it all together.

ThePudge
11-11-2009, 12:14 PM
Question for Bengals fans:

What exactly are you guys doing on defense that is making the unit so successful? I know you have 2 solid CBs, you have a great LB core, and a solid run stuffing DT, but it just seems to me that this defense is overachieving right now.

Is it good coaching? Change in style? From observing from afar, it doesn't seem like theres really any trickery involved with the Bengals defense. It seems pretty vanilla to be honest. But its working.

Perhaps I'm underrating your pass rush?


Well it's all Mike Zimmer, first and foremost, the guy was a blessing. It's been a mixture of personnel and scheme thus far. We're definitely not without weakness on D, and still rather thin, but Marvin Lewis finally has guys buying into this new attitude, this new swagger, and at the mean time they've come in, learned and bought into Zimmer's schemes.

Now, for some specifics.

The pass rush we've generated this year (21 Sacks) has definitely made things a little easier, and teams have had to throw the extra Tight End, Fullback, or Running Back back there to block in pass defense. Antwan Odom was playing some terrific football for us, but we've been able to replace him successfully with a combination of Frostee Rucker, who is playing his best football as a pro, Jonathan Fanene, who just makes plays when he's in the game, and rookie Michael Johnson, who has put some heat on the QB, but right now has been mostly useful for tipping balls at the line of scrimmage and throwing one more roadblock in the opposing QB's throwing lane.

Not to be sold short is the Cincinnati Bengals rush defense. This unit used to be a laughing stock of the league dating back from about 1999-2007. No one's laughing any more. They aren't laughing because the Bengals have only allowed one rusher to go over 100 yards (Jerome Harrison), the longest run allowed by the team has been 24 yards, and we now rank 2nd in the league behind Pittsburgh in rush defense with 83.9 yards per game.

The middle of the defense has been stout, the linebackers play sideline to sideline, and we're finally making plays behind the line of scrimmage. Mike Zimmer called Domata Peko the best Nose Tackle he's ever coached, and he continues to fly under the radar. Tank Johnson is back and healthy, and is making plays behind the line. Second year Pat Sims may not have Peko's motor, but has the same type of size and strength combined with terrific quickness for his weight. This has to be our best DT situation I've ever witnessed (Keep in mind I'm only 19.)

The linebackers... what to really say about this unit. Right now, they cover the run better than the pass. Rookie SAM Rey Maualuga has been a two down backer and seems to always be around the ball in the run game, whether it be to the outside or middle. This guy has a great motor, he plays sideline to sideline, he plays with great energy, and best of all, he's a sure tackler. Still, as I said, he's a two down player and needs to get better acclimated in coverage for this defense to reach its' true potential. MLB Dhani Jones keeps on going. He's still our #1 playmaker at Linebacker for the time being. Dhani plays the run tough, is an effective blitzer, and has some instincts in coverage. As with Maualuga, the guy gets out and makes tackles at both sidelines, but unlike Rey, Dhani's presence is often felt in the opposing team's backfield as well. Keith Rivers is on the cusp of becoming a very good player in the NFL. Keith is big, he's fast, he's getting there in terms of coverage ability, and I know I'm wearing it out, but he's making plays in the run game from sideline to sideline. Right now, he still gets nicked up a little too easily, and has missed some tackles due to playing high or stiff-hipped. As I said though, he has been improving and will get there.

- Backup linebacker Brandon Johnson should be a big part of the team's future plans. When Johnson's on the field, the defense simply plays better. Dare I say it, Johnson may be playing the best football of any linebacker when he's on the field like he was last week filling in for an injured Keith Rivers. Johnson is the team's best coverage LB, standing at 6'5 with fluid athleticism. He also is the team's most effective blitzer. When Zimmer sends #59, you'll know. Last year Johnson came on and spearheaded that LB group the second half of the season, I'm hoping we can find a full-time role for him here. The guy is a stud and gets some snaps on 3rd Down regularly, playing WLB.

The secondary contains our best players, but our worst situation. Don't be overly hard on the Safeties. In Zim's scheme, there really isn't a true FS/SS, and they are often used in blitz packages, and have also lined up in the box fairly often threatening blitz. Chris Crocker started a bit slower this year than he finished a year ago, but looks to be getting up to speed in recent weeks. Zimmer really likes to have fun with him, after coaching him in Atlanta, putting a good amount of responsibility on him as a blitzer, defending the pass, and covering the run. He has had some missed tackles and some mistakes, but his play has shown improvement in recent weeks. Roy Williams has been good for our team, but he's also been hurt. Chinedum Ndukwe is the #3 Safety, capable of playing either spot, and is used as aggressively as anyone on our D. Ndukwe flies off the edge or up the middle and is an explosive, productive blitzer though he's been whiffing a bit back there and has missed a couple tackles in the run game.

Cornerbacks Johnathan Joseph and Leon Hall are our top individual defenders thus far. They both excel in man coverage for the Bengals. This defense is at it's best (as it was the last two weeks) when they're facing spread looks or have to play conservatively, sitting back in zone. They play best when those two corners can man up, S/LB's make up the coverage on Tight Ends and backs, and Zimmer can bring the occasional blitz. They are two of the league's better cover corners making up one of the league's premier 1-2 punches at Corner. Behind them, we are extremely shaky with constant injuries and inexperience. 3rd CB David Jones is now back, and we'll see what he can do, but we missed him earlier in the year facing 3/4 WR packages. Rookie Morgan Trent has played an active role though recently and is cutting down his liability. Those are really our only 4 corners, and when only 3 were healthy, we had a tough time defending the pass.

-I hope you got what you wanted out of this answer. I know it was a simple question, but as you said, it was hard to pick up on paper or watching a game or two what made this defense tick.

bigbluedefense
11-11-2009, 01:34 PM
Well it's all Mike Zimmer, first and foremost, the guy was a blessing. It's been a mixture of personnel and scheme thus far. We're definitely not without weakness on D, and still rather thin, but Marvin Lewis finally has guys buying into this new attitude, this new swagger, and at the mean time they've come in, learned and bought into Zimmer's schemes.

Now, for some specifics.

The pass rush we've generated this year (21 Sacks) has definitely made things a little easier, and teams have had to throw the extra Tight End, Fullback, or Running Back back there to block in pass defense. Antwan Odom was playing some terrific football for us, but we've been able to replace him successfully with a combination of Frostee Rucker, who is playing his best football as a pro, Jonathan Fanene, who just makes plays when he's in the game, and rookie Michael Johnson, who has put some heat on the QB, but right now has been mostly useful for tipping balls at the line of scrimmage and throwing one more roadblock in the opposing QB's throwing lane.

Not to be sold short is the Cincinnati Bengals rush defense. This unit used to be a laughing stock of the league dating back from about 1999-2007. No one's laughing any more. They aren't laughing because the Bengals have only allowed one rusher to go over 100 yards (Jerome Harrison), the longest run allowed by the team has been 24 yards, and we now rank 2nd in the league behind Pittsburgh in rush defense with 83.9 yards per game.

The middle of the defense has been stout, the linebackers play sideline to sideline, and we're finally making plays behind the line of scrimmage. Mike Zimmer called Domata Peko the best Nose Tackle he's ever coached, and he continues to fly under the radar. Tank Johnson is back and healthy, and is making plays behind the line. Second year Pat Sims may not have Peko's motor, but has the same type of size and strength combined with terrific quickness for his weight. This has to be our best DT situation I've ever witnessed (Keep in mind I'm only 19.)

The linebackers... what to really say about this unit. Right now, they cover the run better than the pass. Rookie SAM Rey Maualuga has been a two down backer and seems to always be around the ball in the run game, whether it be to the outside or middle. This guy has a great motor, he plays sideline to sideline, he plays with great energy, and best of all, he's a sure tackler. Still, as I said, he's a two down player and needs to get better acclimated in coverage for this defense to reach its' true potential. MLB Dhani Jones keeps on going. He's still our #1 playmaker at Linebacker for the time being. Dhani plays the run tough, is an effective blitzer, and has some instincts in coverage. As with Maualuga, the guy gets out and makes tackles at both sidelines, but unlike Rey, Dhani's presence is often felt in the opposing team's backfield as well. Keith Rivers is on the cusp of becoming a very good player in the NFL. Keith is big, he's fast, he's getting there in terms of coverage ability, and I know I'm wearing it out, but he's making plays in the run game from sideline to sideline. Right now, he still gets nicked up a little too easily, and has missed some tackles due to playing high or stiff-hipped. As I said though, he has been improving and will get there.

- Backup linebacker Brandon Johnson should be a big part of the team's future plans. When Johnson's on the field, the defense simply plays better. Dare I say it, Johnson may be playing the best football of any linebacker when he's on the field like he was last week filling in for an injured Keith Rivers. Johnson is the team's best coverage LB, standing at 6'5 with fluid athleticism. He also is the team's most effective blitzer. When Zimmer sends #59, you'll know. Last year Johnson came on and spearheaded that LB group the second half of the season, I'm hoping we can find a full-time role for him here. The guy is a stud and gets some snaps on 3rd Down regularly, playing WLB.

The secondary contains our best players, but our worst situation. Don't be overly hard on the Safeties. In Zim's scheme, there really isn't a true FS/SS, and they are often used in blitz packages, and have also lined up in the box fairly often threatening blitz. Chris Crocker started a bit slower this year than he finished a year ago, but looks to be getting up to speed in recent weeks. Zimmer really likes to have fun with him, after coaching him in Atlanta, putting a good amount of responsibility on him as a blitzer, defending the pass, and covering the run. He has had some missed tackles and some mistakes, but his play has shown improvement in recent weeks. Roy Williams has been good for our team, but he's also been hurt. Chinedum Ndukwe is the #3 Safety, capable of playing either spot, and is used as aggressively as anyone on our D. Ndukwe flies off the edge or up the middle and is an explosive, productive blitzer though he's been whiffing a bit back there and has missed a couple tackles in the run game.

Cornerbacks Johnathan Joseph and Leon Hall are our top individual defenders thus far. They both excel in man coverage for the Bengals. This defense is at it's best (as it was the last two weeks) when they're facing spread looks or have to play conservatively, sitting back in zone. They play best when those two corners can man up, S/LB's make up the coverage on Tight Ends and backs, and Zimmer can bring the occasional blitz. They are two of the league's better cover corners making up one of the league's premier 1-2 punches at Corner. Behind them, we are extremely shaky with constant injuries and inexperience. 3rd CB David Jones is now back, and we'll see what he can do, but we missed him earlier in the year facing 3/4 WR packages. Rookie Morgan Trent has played an active role though recently and is cutting down his liability. Those are really our only 4 corners, and when only 3 were healthy, we had a tough time defending the pass.

-I hope you got what you wanted out of this answer. I know it was a simple question, but as you said, it was hard to pick up on paper or watching a game or two what made this defense tick.

Is Zimmer an attacking DC or more of a 4 man rush guy? He runs a lot of Man right?

Xenos
11-11-2009, 02:11 PM
Frankly I'm just shocked the Bengals are doing so well when they spent this training camp being on Hard Knocks. For a while, it seemed that show was like the new Madden curse.

ThePudge
11-11-2009, 08:20 PM
Is Zimmer an attacking DC or more of a 4 man rush guy? He runs a lot of Man right?

He likes to show blitz/blitz a good deal on passing downs while manning up those two top corners Hall and Joseph. He definitely likes to build the confidence of this defense by attacking (especially on third downs.) He uses a lot of 4 man rush looks on rushing downs, and will on passing downs against 4+ WR sets. Typically against teams that throw that type of look out against the Bengals, we tend to sit back in zone coverage and struggle due to a thin CB corps.

Saints-Tigers
11-12-2009, 03:11 AM
The Saints are playing a dangerous style of D right now it seems, both safeties are quasi-rovers, either playing near the line, or just playing all over, never really just settling into soft zones. Sharper has free reign to freelance, and Harper blitzes about as much as he covers.

I think it really works well because we are generating a rush with just 4 guys, both CBs are playing outstanding despite being in single coverage a LOT, and Vilma can comfortably cover backs and TEs.

We did double Steve Smith a lot though, but I really like how our D is playing the pass, but we are aching for Sedrick Ellis, and we could really draft another DT this year as well. We are currently starting Remi Ayodele, and Anthony Hargrove, a 270 pound DE, who I actually like a lot, but he's a DE...

I'd love to upgrade at OLB and DT.

I know no one asked, I just wanted to talk about it :D

Flyboy
11-12-2009, 10:45 AM
I think resigning Sharper and adding a OLB & DT either through free agency or the draft would have our defense pretty set. Also, it should be interesting to see what we do with Roman Harper at the end of the season too.

bigbluedefense
11-12-2009, 11:50 AM
Whats the word with Malcolm Jenkins? Is he a CB or Safety? How has he looked so far?

Gay Ork Wang
11-12-2009, 12:03 PM
The Saints D has scored more TDs than the Browns offense and Raiders offense and is tied with the Rams offense

d34ng3l021
11-12-2009, 01:29 PM
-Matt Ryan is hitting the sophomore slump. Now having that said, watch him put up a 40 burger on my Giants :(. But getting back to my original point, I think "the next Peyton Manning" talk is a bit premature. I love Ryan, I think the world of him. But let's put the anointing oil down. You gotta prove it first.


I think the notion that Ryan is fully hitting his sophomore slump are a bit exaggerated. He hasn't played up to par and expectations, but taking a closer look at the schedule, you can see why it makes sense. The Falcons last 3 out of 4 opponents have had a bye week to prepare for the Falcon's passing attack and a particularly hurt offensive line. The other team that didn't have a bye to prepare? The undefeated Saints in New Orleans. Ryan seems to have struggled, but as it stands, the Falcon's 3 losses are to the 6-2 Patriots, 6-2 Cowboys, and 8-0 Saints (all away). But I do agree with the premature Manning talk. He doesn't look nearly as poised in the pocket and isn't making as many big plays as last year. Whether that has to do with a struggling pass blocking unit or lack of arm strength remains to be seen.

CC.SD
11-12-2009, 01:40 PM
I think the notion that Ryan is fully hitting his sophomore slump are a bit exaggerated. He hasn't played up to par and expectations, but taking a closer look at the schedule, you can see why it makes sense. The Falcons last 3 out of 4 opponents have had a bye week to prepare for the Falcon's passing attack and a particularly hurt offensive line. The other team that didn't have a bye to prepare? The undefeated Saints in New Orleans. Ryan seems to have struggled, but as it stands, the Falcon's 3 losses are to the 6-2 Patriots, 6-2 Cowboys, and 8-0 Saints (all away). But I do agree with the premature Manning talk. He doesn't look nearly as poised in the pocket and isn't making as many big plays as last year. Whether that has to do with a struggling pass blocking unit or lack of arm strength remains to be seen.

No need to be defensive, I don't think there's anyone on this board who doesn't think Matty is worth his dolla dolla bills y'all. This happens to young QBs, and then they slap an experience bandaid on it and move on.

Shiver
11-12-2009, 01:49 PM
I don't see how arm strength is a reason for his struggles, he doesn't have a cannon but he is easily on par with a Matt Schaub, Philip Rivers; in fact, there is only about five or so Quarterbacks that have discernibly stronger arms.

CC.SD
11-12-2009, 01:51 PM
I don't see how arm strength is a reason for his struggles, he doesn't have a cannon but he is easily on par with a Matt Schaub, Philip Rivers; in fact, there is only about five or so Quarterbacks that have discernibly stronger arms.

and some of them...don't count.

BlindSite
11-12-2009, 03:10 PM
and some of them...don't count.

Based on their game performances, some of them couldn't.

d34ng3l021
11-12-2009, 05:01 PM
No need to be defensive, I don't think there's anyone on this board who doesn't think Matty is worth his dolla dolla bills y'all. This happens to young QBs, and then they slap an experience bandaid on it and move on.

Exactly. I think some people may look too much at his numbers (8 interceptions in the last 4 games) and think that he may be going into a slump, even though he is much more accurate and has made relatively better decisions (for the most part at least).

I don't see how arm strength is a reason for his struggles, he doesn't have a cannon but he is easily on par with a Matt Schaub, Philip Rivers; in fact, there is only about five or so Quarterbacks that have discernibly stronger arms.

I agree, but I am still unsure of why our down field passing game hasn't started clicking yet. There could be a multitude of reasons, including a struggling offensive line, no deep threats outside White, and playcalling, but as of now, it seems as if you stop our short-medium game, there isn't much we can do. I would like it if we could at least take some shots down the field to keep defenses honest, but we don't even do that. I am not questioning Ryan's arm strength (yet), but this offense should be more explosive and it isn't. Now that Turner has gotten going, I hope we can return to the explosive offense of last season, where Ryan averaged 7.9 yards per attempt.

Auron
11-12-2009, 05:57 PM
Whats the word with Malcolm Jenkins? Is he a CB or Safety? How has he looked so far?

He's at Corner, and currently the Dime back... he hasn't seen much action on Defense yet... but he's making a huge impact on special teams... forcing fumbles on both kickoff returns, and punt returns. We might see him get more action at Nickel Back vs. the Rams as they might rest Jabari Greer with a strained groin.

Saints-Tigers
11-12-2009, 06:07 PM
Malcolm has forced 2 fumbles on special teams, and he's downed 2 punts inside the 5 yard line if I recall, 1 on the 1 yard line.

Staff is high on him though, and he looks way faster than touted, he ran down Aaron Brown in the Lions game from behind without an angle, I was impressed.

Xenos
11-12-2009, 10:33 PM
and some of them...don't count.

Like this gentleman?

http://www2.pictures.gi.zimbio.com/Chicago+Bears+Introduce+Jay+Cutler+4UTjRx5e01pl.jp g

Gay Ork Wang
11-12-2009, 11:58 PM
Like this gentleman?

http://www2.pictures.gi.zimbio.com/Chicago+Bears+Introduce+Jay+Cutler+4UTjRx5e01pl.jp g
No... more like this guy:


















http://blogs.nashvillescene.com/pitw/Jay%20Cutler.gif

FUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU

Xenos
11-13-2009, 02:18 AM
No... more like this guy:
















http://blogs.nashvillescene.com/pitw/Jay%20Cutler.gif

FUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU

I warned you before the season that this would happen. He trusts his arm way too much and that leads to him staring down his receiver and trying to fit it in tight windows like the redzone. And it's not even a Ron Turner situation like I thought it would be. The guy is simply letting Cutler do whatever he wants like he did at Denver.

And no, I don't take any joy in what's happening to the Bears. Maybe this season will be a wakeup call to him, especially if he continues losing and the fans let him have it. I could see him being better next season if there's a big enough force to knock some sense into him.

Gay Ork Wang
11-13-2009, 02:39 AM
his problem is that he is trying too much. but its not like anyone else is trying at all so yea, its better to see at least someone trying. not defending him, some of his decisions are downright horrible. but most of the times, he cant do a lot better

Xenos
11-13-2009, 02:44 AM
his problem is that he is trying too much. but its not like anyone else is trying at all so yea, its better to see at least someone trying. not defending him, some of his decisions are downright horrible. but most of the times, he cant do a lot better
I personally don't understand how the running game is this wretched. It was fine last year with Orton as the QB, and Cutler's arm was suppose to make it easier for Forte this season.

Gay Ork Wang
11-13-2009, 02:48 AM
I personally don't understand how the running game is this wretched. It was fine last year with Orton as the QB, and Cutler's arm was suppose to make it easier for Forte this season.
Its the oline. There are literally no holes. The Bengals got in our backfield with 6 guys while we had a TE and a FB blocking. They are all average at best at pass blocking, doesnt help as much though since the opponent knows whats coming. Last year, we had holes but this year there is really nothing.

Look at this:

http://www.nfl.com/videos/chicago-bears/09000d5d813d19ba/WK-8-Playbook-Browns-vs-Bears

explains why we suck at rushing

MichaelJordanEberle (sabf)
11-13-2009, 11:12 AM
I dunno what's happening with Cutler... last year in Denver he was great. Yes, he had INT problems, but at that point his positives vastly outweighed his negatives. I don't think it's all the talent difference either, cuz Cutler was damn good his second year when the line was awful, and it's not like he's terribly inaccurate and relied on guys like Marshall and Royal to make circus catches all the time. He's regressed. A lot.

AkiliSmith
11-13-2009, 11:22 AM
Its the oline. There are literally no holes. The Bengals got in our backfield with 6 guys while we had a TE and a FB blocking. They are all average at best at pass blocking, doesnt help as much though since the opponent knows whats coming. Last year, we had holes but this year there is really nothing.

Look at this:

http://www.nfl.com/videos/chicago-bears/09000d5d813d19ba/WK-8-Playbook-Browns-vs-Bears

explains why we suck at rushing
Omiyale has to be one of the worst guards in the NFL

Gay Ork Wang
11-13-2009, 11:23 AM
Omiyale has to be one of the worst guards in the NFL
Crappy guard is the worst guard in the NFL. but besides him, Pace isnt doing well either and Kreutz is getting old

Shiver
11-13-2009, 12:24 PM
I don't know why the Bears went for the Falcons' guard trash heap with Garza and Omiyale. It certainly has not helped.

Jay Cutler is who we all knew he was. He is practically the same guy he was at Vandy. He has always ebbed and flowed, had peaks and valleys, etc. He is doing worse this year, I think, because of the added pressure on him to be "the guy." Talent wise Denver was better so that exacerbates Jay Cutler's problems, his big games aren't as big and his bad games are much worse.

San Diego Chicken
11-13-2009, 12:29 PM
I'm as far away as possible from being a Cutler fan, but clearly the Bears aren't doing him any favors with the scheme and playcalling. Cutler is a flat out bad pocket passer, but a very good passer outside the pocket. His overall vision is poor for a starting QB and he doesn't anticipate well. His mechanics in the pocket are awful, awful. But he's accurate on the run and has the arm strength to push the ball downfield while on the move.

In Denver, Shanahan's offense cut the field in half for him, playing to his strength with all the bootlegs and rollouts. He can still be good, just never a "franchise" or perennial pro-bowl player with those limitations. But this offense is just a bad fit right now.

Clearly, in my opinion, the Bears got fleeced in the trade given that they have so many needs and zero help coming in the draft in the near future. The only way to cut their losses is to clean house and bring in Shanahan to run his offense because like it or not, they're stuck with Cutler for the next several years.

Gay Ork Wang
11-13-2009, 12:31 PM
like someone said in our thread:

Our offensive system is perfect for Cutlers weaknesses.

Shiver
11-13-2009, 12:33 PM
What I think is interesting, though, is the Bears' receivers have been better than I thought they would be. Hester's transition is impressive, Olsen has been red hot lately, Knox is promising and Bennett is solid. The O-Line's problems have negated that positive.

Gay Ork Wang
11-13-2009, 12:48 PM
Oline Problems are a lot worse than WR problems

Maybe Next Year Millen2
11-13-2009, 12:49 PM
I personally don't understand how the running game is this wretched. It was fine last year with Orton as the QB, and Cutler's arm was suppose to make it easier for Forte this season.

Bears averaged 3.9 YPC last year. So it really wasn't that good last year. They did change three positions with Pace,Omiyale and Chris Williams. Williams is a first year starter and should be an LT since he isn't the mauler road grade tackle but obviously Pace has LT down, Kreutz has regressed some, Omiyale wasn't really ever the answer and Pace is aged as well.

Cutlers arm should open things up and the receivers have played better than expectations but they still don't have a receiver to fear to really open things up. And now they don't have a draft to find that receiver or fix the Oline. Maybe they can get a guard in free agency though. Should be some available. Draft is obviously shot though to find Oline and a true stud WR. Could get lucky and find a Colston in Round 3-7 but that rarely happens. Hester,Knox and Bennett should continue to get better, hopefully one of them steps up into a number 1 can't be covered role next year.

D-Unit
11-13-2009, 12:57 PM
Count me in as someone who was tricked into believing Cutler was good.

I used to call him a Top 10 QB with mostly everyone else here.

no bare feet
11-13-2009, 01:12 PM
Cutler makes some dumb throws even if he is trying to hard with a ****** team, ****** play calling and ****** line.

d34ng3l021
11-13-2009, 03:29 PM
Interesting. I wrote down season predictions and some thoughts of how the season would play out (some right, some wrong), and one of the statements was that Cutler would not be a good fit in Chicago. The Bears have always been known for a good defense and run game, and Cutler doesn't fit the mold of a QB of that type of team; he takes way too many risks. However, you can't solely fault him. That offensive line is absolutely atrocious, especially in run blocking.

Gay Ork Wang
11-13-2009, 03:33 PM
If we still were a running and defense team, we'd be screwed big time

Bucs_Rule
11-13-2009, 04:28 PM
The play-calling is also bad. On 3rd and goal from the 1.5 yard line, after getting stuffed on 2 previous run plays its obviously going to be a pass play. So the Bears line up in goaline and do a play action, of course the 49ers didn't bight at all. Should have lined up in a pass formation and give the receivers a better chance at getting open.

bigbluedefense
11-13-2009, 08:42 PM
I'm going to play both angles on Cutler in this post. I'm gonna say what makes him good, what makes him bad, and why he's overall an above average NFL qb but until he shows us more, is nothing more than that.


First off, let's say what he does well. The guy is mobile, has great pocket presence, we all know about his cannon, and has great accuracy.

Basically, physically, he's everything you want in a qb.


But thats where it ends. Everyone wants to kill his oline (and rightfully so), his WRs etc, but see, the thing is, a qb is also responsible for a lot of that. Its not just about what you see, thats one thing I learned about quarterbacks over the years. Thats why for the most part, I stay away from qb discussions these days.

We as fans, we don't know ****. And what we don't see has so much to do with the qb position, we can never accurately say who's in fact great or average etc.

And this is what we don't see with Cutler. He never adjusts protection, he never audibles and checks out of plays, he never readjusts blocking routes on run plays, he never motions WRs into better positions presnap to expose holes in the zone. (I shouldnt say never, rarely is a better word)

Basically, he does no presnap adjustments. And thats half the battle. The true elite qbs in this league make those adjustments. Those adjustments make the entire offense better. People sometimes forget that the qb is even responsible for some of the run game. Adjusting blocking assignments before the snap, changing the direction of the run, even checking into a run....these are all things that elite qbs do. He does none of them.

On top of that, he relies on his arm way too much. He doesnt look off defenders that well, he really doesn't scan the field all that well, he takes way too many risks, and thats why he'll have an incredible game where you say "wow, he really threw into tight windows" followed by a 5 int game.

So while Cutler isn't to blame for some of their woes, if he was truly the elite qb they thought they had in him, hed take the next step and make those sight adjustments. And he doesn't.

Thats something a lot of qbs don't do to be honest. A lot of those qbs are heavily overrated by this board. We just look at completion %, TD #s and say wow, he's good. No, its not that simple.

Cutler is the first to be exposed, but there are several qbs in this league in his mold. He's not the only one.

Thats why its so hard comparing qbs. Bc there are so many factors outside his own ability that factor into his "production".

Now having said all that, Cutler does make his team around him better bc of his godgiven ability. He doesn't do it like Peyton does, but his natural talent alone makes his team better. And I think he doesn't get enough credit for making his WR core better than it really is. So he does possess certain traits that an elite qb needs to have. He just also has traits that elite qbs don't have. He needs to mature a little, and do a better job with his presnap abilities before I pencil him in as a true elite qb. He's also not a winner, and not very clutch. Thats why he's above avg, but nothing more for now.

Fantasy football has killed our perception of what a good football player is nowadays. The qb position is the most glaring example of it.

Gay Ork Wang
11-14-2009, 01:10 AM
BBD, i dont think sliding the protection would help since the biggest problem isnt unaccounted blitzers or rushers, but it is people getting beat cleanly off the snap, being pushed back into the backfield or just whiffing blocks. u can adjust all you want but its not gonna help if your player cant do what he is supposed to

bigbluedefense
11-14-2009, 08:57 AM
BBD, i dont think sliding the protection would help since the biggest problem isnt unaccounted blitzers or rushers, but it is people getting beat cleanly off the snap, being pushed back into the backfield or just whiffing blocks. u can adjust all you want but its not gonna help if your player cant do what he is supposed to

Which is why I'm not getting on him too much. He's still an above avg qb to me. But he can help the issue a little by identifying coverages and getting the ball out quicker, leaving guys in to block etc.

He doesn't do that, so it compounds the issue. His natural ability in the pocket makes it less of an issue, but its still an issue that he ignores.

Same with the run game, theres adjustments that can be made. Sliding guys, rerouting the run away from the 8th man, even checking into a run on 2nd down in some situations when you see the DTs playing pass rush, or catch the defense in an unfavorable front.

It might not be a huge difference, but when your oline is this bad, something is better than nothing.


The crappy part of this for Chicago is that they can't fix many of their issues immediately, bc they gave up so many draft picks. Then wasted another one on Gaines Adams, which is a fail for another time.

SenorGato
11-14-2009, 10:32 AM
What I think is interesting, though, is the Bears' receivers have been better than I thought they would be. Hester's transition is impressive, Olsen has been red hot lately, Knox is promising and Bennett is solid. The O-Line's problems have negated that positive.

Thank Jay Cutler.

The guy has the natural ability to elevate others' play...but that O-line and running game is killing him...that and Olsen is the closest to a prototypical game breaker amongst the offensive weapons.

Of all the young QB's in this league, I don't think anyone is asked to do more with less than Cutler. Few, if any, QBs would be playing well on the Bears.

Auron
11-14-2009, 02:26 PM
In response to the post of Cutler not doing all the little things Pre-snap, and audibling at the line.. I would say that might not be ALL on him, you have to look at the all around Offensive system. That's the hard part about us as fans that don't have access to those team meeting rooms we truly don't know what kind of options each QB is given before the snap.

The blame might lie at the all around Offensive systems, we don't know for sure what kind of flexibility Cutler is allowed at the Line of scrimmage... obviously there has to be some kind of fall back audibles.... I know QBs like Peyton, Brady, Brees are given great freedom from their coaching staffs to audible and change plays at the line of scrimmage but that's because they've earned the right to almost completely dictate the Offense based on what they see at the line.

We truly don't know if Cutler is allowed to make certain audibles, he might not be able to motion a receiver before the snap to take advantage of a possible hole in a zone... simply because that system in Chicago might not have the same pre-snap motions designed in their plays, like he had available to him in Denver. Ron Turner strikes me as a very stiff kind of guy that doesn't tinker with his system... so he might be against Cutler changing things up... we truly don't know the whole story.... but I do agree Cutler has to get better with Pre-Snap recognition.

MidwayMonster31
11-14-2009, 02:50 PM
In response to the post of Cutler not doing all the little things Pre-snap, and audibling at the line.. I would say that might not be ALL on him, you have to look at the all around Offensive system. That's the hard part about us as fans that don't have access to those team meeting rooms we truly don't know what kind of options each QB is given before the snap.

The blame might lie at the all around Offensive systems, we don't know for sure what kind of flexibility Cutler is allowed at the Line of scrimmage... obviously there has to be some kind of fall back audibles.... I know QBs like Peyton, Brady, Brees are given great freedom from their coaching staffs to audible and change plays at the line of scrimmage but that's because they've earned the right to almost completely dictate the Offense based on what they see at the line.

We truly don't know if Cutler is allowed to make certain audibles, he might not be able to motion a receiver before the snap to take advantage of a possible hole in a zone... simply because that system in Chicago might not have the same pre-snap motions designed in their plays, like he had available to him in Denver. Ron Turner strikes me as a very stiff kind of guy that doesn't tinker with his system... so he might be against Cutler changing things up... we truly don't know the whole story.... but I do agree Cutler has to get better with Pre-Snap recognition.Good post.
Cutler's pre-snap recognition is an issue. The Bears rarely, if ever, use audibles. What worked in the 90s doesn't work now. Teams are just too smart and well prepared for that. Combine all of that with an offensive line that is losing most of the individual matchups and getting beat by 4 down linemen and a non-existent running game, you get this mess.

Shiver
11-14-2009, 03:01 PM
I believe that is the biggest reason why an offense and a QB fail is when an OC doesn't humble himself and give the QB the option of changing the plays. Not every QB is capable of doing it however, but I'm not sure that is a problem that Jay Cutler has.

Gay Ork Wang
11-14-2009, 03:05 PM
you clearly dont know Ron Turner

Rosebud
11-14-2009, 03:53 PM
you clearly dont know Ron Turner

Firing Ron Turner was the single biggest move I made in the last forum mock for the bears.

Gay Ork Wang
11-14-2009, 03:54 PM
Firing Ron Turner is almost as good as firing Matt Millen