PDA

View Full Version : Is Dumervil worth a 1st and a 3rd?


bigbuc
12-03-2009, 12:16 AM
Just put up on profootballtalk.com about how if there's no new labor deal Dumervil becomes an restricted free agent and with the highest possible tender if you sign him you have to give Denver a 1st and a 3rd. Is he worth that? Plus the money you have to pay him?


Here's the link http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2009/12/02/denver-faces-dilemma-on-dumervil/

tjsunstein
12-03-2009, 07:50 AM
I would say no. That's a lot for any player when you include the new contract. You could get a 3-4 OLB with your first, fill another need, and most likely save money doing so.

MetSox17
12-03-2009, 08:01 AM
Either way, i think Denver matches whatever a team is willing to throw at him. And yes, i think he's worth a first and a third. Third rounders these days don't get you much, and teams that pick in the top ten are scared of the money they have to dish out. Anything after that for a top notch pass rusher/defender, and it's worth it.

Caddy
12-03-2009, 08:03 AM
It's an interesting option for teams in need of a pass rusher. The Jared Allen trade was a steal and in retrospect the Chiefs should have gotten more. But I don't think that should stop the Broncos being able to get a 1st and a 3rd for Dumervil who is one of the best pure pass rushers in the NFL.

Splat
12-03-2009, 08:30 AM
The Chiefs got a first and two third round picks with Jared's off the field trouble at the time that is about as much as they could have got.

As for Dumervil I think he would be worth the draft picks and a new deal but Denver would be insane to let him go.

Caddy
12-03-2009, 08:44 AM
The Chiefs got a first and two third round picks with Jared's off the field trouble at the time that is about as much as they could have got.

As for Dumervil I think he would be worth the draft picks and a new deal but Denver would be insane to let him go.

Hence the whole 'retrospect'.

I just hope that if such a deal transgresses regarding Dumervil, that people don't compare it to the Allen deal.

regoob2
12-03-2009, 08:52 AM
A late 1st and 3rd.

descendency
12-03-2009, 08:55 AM
Given the OLB class this year, yes.

1st and a 3rd for a guaranteed player in the 34 defense versus a potential 34 player in what is an extremely unexciting draft after Jerry hughes at 34 OLB... yea. definitely. But you'd have to give him an ungodly contract for Denver not to match.

Abaddon
12-03-2009, 09:00 AM
Proven pass rushers are among the league's highest valued players. I would absolutely give a 1 and a 3 for a guy who I already know is a stud.

Draft picks are only as valuable as what you get out of them. If I need a guy to put the QB on the turf, and Dumervil is available, forget the Draft. Go get me some Elvis.

Let's be honest. That 1st round pick is 50/50 at best. I'll give away a 3rd round pick if it means what I get in exchange for my 1st rounder is a sure thing.

As for the contract, Jared Allen's name shouldn't even come up. Doom's agents will want a contract similar to that of James Harrison and DeMarcus Ware.

senormysterioso
12-03-2009, 09:17 AM
I would say no. That's a lot for any player when you include the new contract. You could get a 3-4 OLB with your first, fill another need, and most likely save money doing so.

I don't really like that argument when it comes to trading for a player (not only do you give up the picks but you have to sign him), I've heard it a lot but it doesn't make sense to me. It fails to consider that you're going to have to sign the draft pick to a contract, probably comparable to the one you're signing the guy you traded for. Jay Cutler got 5 years and $49.77 million from the Bears. If the Bears had been in a position to grab Stafford (6/$72 million), Sanchez (5/$45-50 million), or Freeman (5/$36 million).

Obviously Cutler hasn't looked good for the Bears and the rookies have looked legit, but hindsight is always 20/20. The Bears got a guy who threw for 4500 yards and went to a pro bowl the year before and paid less than what the Lions did and about equal what the Jets did for guys that never took a snap in the NFL.

MetSox17
12-03-2009, 09:46 AM
Yeah, i know that's always the way i've looked at it. Why risk taking someone in the draft when you can trade for a player that has proven himself in the league to be a top notch producer at his position? Like Abaddon said, i'll gladly throw that third rounder in to assure myself that who i'm getting is legit.

Sniper
12-03-2009, 11:32 AM
Hell yes. I can't believe this is an actual question.

E-Man
12-03-2009, 11:59 AM
It really depends on how badly the team who is giving up those picks need him. Obviously whoever is looking at signing him would need him, but how badly do they need him in regards to other positions. If they're a good pass rusher away from a dominant defense like the Vikings before Allen then it's definitely worth it. If they're a team in such disarray like the Browns, then they really can't afford to give up picks because one player isn't going to turn things around.

Diehard
12-03-2009, 01:14 PM
Any team considering taking a pass rusher with their 1st round pick will take a long look at Dumervil. The 3rd is really chump change to get a proven player over a crapshoot prospect.

Dumervil has a good motor, positive attitude and is a great team player - he really fits in well with McD's approach and I would be pretty surprised if they don't get a deal done.

If we're going to lose someone as a RFA, I think Brandon Marshall has to be the most likely suspect.

FlyingElvis
12-03-2009, 01:23 PM
Yes. Elvis would love to see Elvis wearing the Elvis.

vikes_28
12-03-2009, 01:26 PM
He is worth a bit more than that IMO. I would give up a lot to have him. He is a class A player. I would even put him in front of Jared Allen for pass rushing. But that could be because he is an OLB and not a DE.

Brothgar
12-03-2009, 02:24 PM
I would easily if I was the Pats or any other 3-4 team. I would give up a first and third easily still leaves them with three seconds.

CC.SD
12-03-2009, 02:36 PM
i can't think of anything more depressing than losing him to the pats.

Merriman leaving might open up a need for the Chargers...

I keed I keed. Settle down English.

Chiefs on the other hand could really use him, but their picks are too premium for such a deal.

bigbuc
12-03-2009, 07:09 PM
Would you give up a 1st and 3rd if you're a 4/3 team? Can he play the run when he was playing DE in the 4/3? Denver fans let me know!

RaiderNation
12-03-2009, 07:11 PM
Id do a 2nd and a 3rd for him. Maybe a late 1st if my team really needed help

CC.SD
12-03-2009, 07:14 PM
stab. stab. stabstabstab.

haha but how do you really feel? I can't see Denver not resigning Elvis. Maybe if Ayers had shown some more this year there'd be some debate but as currently constructed the team needs Dumervil and will pay whatever it takes.

Babylon
12-03-2009, 07:41 PM
He was a 4th round pick. Has he done enough to justify a 1st and 3rd? I wouldnt pay that.

Don Vito
12-03-2009, 07:45 PM
I can't seen Denver letting him get away, he has been a stud there and in that defense his position is obviously one of the most important. He is still pretty young and is one of the league's better rushers, I can't see them letting him go.

I don't know if he is worth a first and a third, it is possible but there are some defenses he might not fit in too well. I know he has long arms for a short DE/LB, but some teams probably just don't see him a a great fit. I think Dumervil is a great player and the Pats desperately need help with the pass rsuh, but I really couldn't see us picking him up despite his talent if he were available. His best fit is in the 3-4 and thats where his highest value is, but still I really couldn't see the Pats looking at him. He could be a monster in Pittsburgh, though. I guess what I'm trying to say is his value is a case by case basis depending on the team.

Cicero
12-03-2009, 07:47 PM
If you run the 3-4 definitely.

Caddy
12-03-2009, 07:57 PM
He was a 4th round pick. Has he done enough to justify a 1st and 3rd? I wouldnt pay that.

This way of thinking is really near-sighted. As far as anyone should be concerned, once the draft is over, a player's value should have zero to do with their initial draft position.

LonghornsLegend
12-03-2009, 08:06 PM
He was a 4th round pick. Has he done enough to justify a 1st and 3rd? I wouldnt pay that.

21 sacks in his first 2 seasons weren't enough? Especially considering how dominant he's been this year? I don't think that's a high price to pay for a pass rusher if you really need one and you run a defense that he fits. If I'm not mistaken he's gotten more then 12 sacks in a 4-3 defense and a 3-4 defense no?


I don't know how much more proven you can get for a young player. It's one of those things where if you take a pass rusher you like mid-late 1st that ends up a bust, and your 3rd rounder is just maybe average, you'd be kicking yourself. You'd have to hit it big on both picks to pass up a talented guy like Dumervil especially if your in the market for a pass rusher. Picks are always valuable before the draft, but they don't always end up that way afterwards.


- In 07 Denver needed a pass rusher and got Jarvis Moss & Ryan Harris with their 1st & 3rd.

- Tampa Bay landed Gaines Adams & Quincy Black

- Atlanta got Jamaal Anderson and Laurent Robinson

- Dallas got Anthony Spencer and James Marten




That's just a quick sample from 07 so we had a decent amount of time to judge players, but don't you think any of those teams would jump to trade both those guys for Dumervil without hesitation? It's always easy to say before hand that a pick has too much value because you can get excited about what you may come away with, but just look at the track record of teams who needed a pass rusher and how it ended up. There are a few who made both picks hit the money, but it is a very small percentage.

wogitalia
12-03-2009, 09:37 PM
To no do it you basically have to have full faith in your scouting team. You are basically saying we are going to get an elite player in the 1st round and a very good one in the 3rd.

Dumervil is elite and will cost about the same as a first round pick, so basically you are backing that you are going to get a similar player in the first and another contributor in the 3rd, if you don't think you will, why would you not sign him?

holt_bruce81
12-03-2009, 09:41 PM
I would do it without question.

Iamcanadian
12-03-2009, 09:42 PM
Obviously, Denver will match any offer so it really doesn't matter that it is a 1st and a 3rd. It isn't going to get him away from Denver.
Teams also have to be very careful about how much they sign a player for. The cap will return the following year.

Besides I'm not sure he would be a restricted FA, in an uncapped year, you need 6 years not 4, in the league to be a FA of any kind I believe.

Splat
12-03-2009, 09:43 PM
Jared Allen was a 4th round pick as well I don't see how that matters at all?

ElectricEye
12-03-2009, 10:32 PM
Yes. Elvis would love to see Elvis wearing the Elvis.

Ditto. It's too bad BB doesn't have a rational stance on the role of outside linebackers in a 3-4 defense. Doesn't matter considering Denver would be absolutely crazy not to match, but yeah, he's worth it.

the decider13
12-03-2009, 10:34 PM
Elvis better not go anywhere...I just got his jersey. So he better be here for at least another year.

Nitschke-Hawk
12-03-2009, 11:25 PM
How is he against the run? He doesn't have many tackles...

niel89
12-03-2009, 11:39 PM
He is absolutely worth a 1st and a 3rd. 14 sacks through 11 games and 40 sacks in 4 years.

He is a proven pass rush commodity and really has excelled in the switch to the 3-4. For a 4-3 team it would not be worth it because he is not as great of an all around DE. There are very few who are better at rushing the passer in the NFL let alone in the draft.

Zycho32
12-04-2009, 01:54 AM
So essentially he's a 'specialist' rusher who needs to be part of a rather rigid defense?

Saints-Tigers
12-04-2009, 01:55 AM
Does anyone here want Dumervil dropping off into coverage? Give me the "rigid" defense that can move him around and get him after the QB.

CC.SD
12-04-2009, 01:57 AM
So essentially he's a 'specialist' rusher who needs to be part of a rather rigid defense?

He's a pass rusher if that's what you mean by 'specialist' rusher. A 3-4 if anything is less rigid than a 4-3, the entire scheme is meant to hide blitzers because in theory it could be coming from any of the linebackers into any gap, and that unpredictability allows for mismatches to be created and abused on the fly. 5 of the last 8 Super Bowl winners have sported this look and won primarily through defensive dominance.

Zycho32
12-04-2009, 02:05 AM
Mmm hmm, but Dumervil's football tools are being described in some comparasion to how Packer fans gave been describing Aaron Kampman- love his rushing ability, totally dread every time he drops back into coverage.

With that said, doesn't that make him harder to hide in a 3-4 because he in turn can be focused on and abused on the fly due to not having an all-around skillset?

Splat
12-04-2009, 08:33 AM
Mmm hmm, but Dumervil's football tools are being described in some comparasion to how Packer fans gave been describing Aaron Kampman- love his rushing ability, totally dread every time he drops back into coverage.

With that said, doesn't that make him harder to hide in a 3-4 because he in turn can be focused on and abused on the fly due to not having an all-around skillset?

I don't think you can compare the two Kampman is pretty much a bad fit in the 3-4 all around and its no secret he is not a fan of the scheme.

Yes it is pretty much known that Dumervil is going to pin his ears back and just go at the QB but why the hell not even with people knowing they can't stop him.

I think his great pass rushing out weighs any negatives he has in his game and the guy is only 25 years old playing 3-4 OLB for the first time he should only get better.

TitanHope
12-04-2009, 10:39 AM
Draft picks are over-rated. Dumervil is definitely worth a 1st and a 3rd for a team who runs a 3-4 DEF.

Now, if you're picking Top 5 or something, then that's another story. But if we're talking mid-1st, then without a doubt. Just for a comparison, I definitely take Doom over Larry English and whoever SD's 3rd RD pick was.

FlyingElvis
12-04-2009, 10:59 AM
Doom would only need to be mediocre at run support to be better overall than what the Pats (and probably many other teams) have currently. He would replace Tully Banta-Cain as our top pass rusher and I can guarantee you he is better against the run than TBC simply b/c he really can't be worse.

21 sacks in his first 2 seasons weren't enough? Especially considering how dominant he's been this year? I don't think that's a high price to pay for a pass rusher if you really need one and you run a defense that he fits. If I'm not mistaken he's gotten more then 12 sacks in a 4-3 defense and a 3-4 defense no?


I don't know how much more proven you can get for a young player. It's one of those things where if you take a pass rusher you like mid-late 1st that ends up a bust, and your 3rd rounder is just maybe average, you'd be kicking yourself. You'd have to hit it big on both picks to pass up a talented guy like Dumervil especially if your in the market for a pass rusher. Picks are always valuable before the draft, but they don't always end up that way afterwards.


- In 07 Denver needed a pass rusher and got Jarvis Moss & Ryan Harris with their 1st & 3rd.

- Tampa Bay landed Gaines Adams & Quincy Black

- Atlanta got Jamaal Anderson and Laurent Robinson

- Dallas got Anthony Spencer and James Marten




That's just a quick sample from 07 so we had a decent amount of time to judge players, but don't you think any of those teams would jump to trade both those guys for Dumervil without hesitation? It's always easy to say before hand that a pick has too much value because you can get excited about what you may come away with, but just look at the track record of teams who needed a pass rusher and how it ended up. There are a few who made both picks hit the money, but it is a very small percentage.

64K rep seems low for the quality of your posts. Apparently I was drunk repping last night b/c I can't give any out right now.

Diehard
12-04-2009, 11:21 AM
Doom would only need to be mediocre at run support to be better overall than what the Pats (and probably many other teams) have currently.

When Doom was playing DE in Shanahan's 4-3, he was vulnerable to teams running right at him. Now he's got the three big boys with their hands down in front to protect him *and* he gets to move around, he seems to be really thriving.

I think he does a pretty good job in contain/pursuit of running plays. IMO, tackles aren't a great stat in this respect - by the nature of the scheme, a lot of stuff ends up getting funnelled inside for DJ, Andra Davis or Dawkins.

thebow305
12-04-2009, 11:37 AM
I don't know. A 1st and 3rd would be a LOT to give up. Granted he is a great player, and maybe if the 1st rounder was a later one, but that seems lik a pretty steep price.

And in no way is he better than Jared Allen. Not yet anyway. Jared Allen is the best pure pass rusher in the game right now.

D-Unit
12-04-2009, 11:44 AM
No. DE/OLBs are becoming easier and easier to find in the draft.

Sniper
12-04-2009, 11:48 AM
No. DE/OLBs are becoming easier and easier to find in the draft.

How many would have 14 sacks in 11 games?

Splat
12-04-2009, 12:14 PM
Vernon Gholston FTL.

D-Unit
12-04-2009, 12:54 PM
out of, say, the last three years, which ones would you take over him right now? and i'm thinking guys who were picked say, 10-32, i don't imagine a team giving up a top 10 choice for a non-qb RFA is all that likely (although, if you can explain why you think it would be, feel free to include them).
Whether he's better or worse, it's hard to say. He's having a hot year and his stock is higher than ever, but he had what?... 5 sacks in 16 games last year? He's in a contract year now, right? That normally raises a flag. I don't think he has the track record of a guy who would command a 1st and 3rd. Then again, if we're talking about the end of the round, then maybe, depending on the team, need, how close they are. This has to be a move that "puts you over the top". In the history of the NFL, which players have actually commanded that much in a real deal? I don't know if Dumervil is that caliber of player.

Anyways, my point was that teams are finding it easier and easier in the draft to find DE/OLBs. The cost/hope ratio is marginal. GMs are all about "hoping". Hoping their moves work. Say they gave up a 1st and 3rd for Dumervil. They're still a significant amount of hope that they are pinning on that that was the right move because that means they might be passing on guys like Brandon Graham, Ricky Sapp, Jerry Hughes, Sergio Kindle, Greg Hardy, Jason Pierre-Paul, George Selvie... could go on and on. ...and that's just using 1 pick. The draft route is a safer bet for GMs and expectations are usually more forgiving while waiting for players to develop, whereas big trades like that better work NOW "or else"...

Brothgar
12-04-2009, 12:56 PM
Whether he's better or worse, it's hard to say. He's having a hot year and his stock is higher than ever, but he had what?... 5 sacks in 16 games last year? He's in a contract year now, right? That normally raises a flag. I don't think he has the track record of a guy who would command a 1st and 3rd. Then again, if we're talking about the end of the round, then maybe, depending on the team, need, how close they are. This has to be a move that "puts you over the top". In the history of the NFL, which players have actually commanded that much in a real deal? I don't know if Dumervil is that caliber of player.

Anyways, my point was that teams are finding it easier and easier in the draft to find DE/OLBs. The cost/hope ratio is marginal. GMs are all about "hoping". Hoping their moves work. Say they gave up a 1st and 3rd for Dumervil. They're still a significant amount of hope that they are pinning on that that was the right move because that means they might be passing on guys like Brandon Graham, Ricky Sapp, Jerry Hughes, Sergio Kindle, Greg Hardy, Jason Pierre-Paul, George Selvie... could go on and on. ...and that's just using 1 pick. The draft route is a safer bet for GMs and expectations are usually more forgiving while waiting for players to develop, whereas big trades like that better work NOW "or else"...

Then he got 12.5 the year before that and 8.5 in his rookie yeah. Last year was his worst year. So no red flag.

Also, to your second argument going back to the past three years what % of 3-4 OLBs have been that successful and Dums is only 25 lets not forget that. Don't get me wrong I love Hughes but still.

Babylon
12-04-2009, 01:08 PM
yeah. i probably wouldn't give up a 1st and 3rd for tom brady. i mean, he was what, a 6th round pick? since that's by far the most relevant information available on him, that'd be a stupid trade to make. ryan leaf on the other hand? **** yeah i would give up a third. dude was a TOP draft pick. that means he's awesome, right?

oh. we should, like, look at production since being drafted as an indication of actual, current value? well i guess judging a player based on where he was drafted four fricking years ago would be basically the most asinine criteria one could possibly use.

I'm talking in the context of him being a 4th round pick not talking a QB (Tom Brady). I know you're biased being a Broncos fan but to me if i had a choice of Elvis or a Jerry Hughes+a Ciron Black or a Danario Alexander i'd take the latter.

Brothgar
12-04-2009, 01:30 PM
Wait I've been agreeing with Sniper AND njx9 ....


EHIFMkmhDY0

CC.SD
12-04-2009, 01:36 PM
Players being 'worth' a first...this has always been a slightly overrated concept. In this draft firsts are definitely at a premium because it is deep and sexy, but usually there are plenty of busts and disappoints littered throughout the first round. Proven pro bowl players are almost universally worth firsts unless they are old/have some other red flag. The downside is strictly the contract situation and that's up in the air. Players like Elvis and Allen seem easily worth the large contracts they'll command to me.

D-Unit
12-04-2009, 01:41 PM
playing out of position for a coach who literally barred his DC from blitzing on a defense that no one actually ever needed to pass against.

i'm not big on excuses, but let's keep things in perspective.



i'd normally not disagree, but i think there's a big difference going into an RFA year than there would be going into an UDFA year.



?? i don't buy that for a second, given his production in 3 out of 4 years, including the first three at a position he shouldn't have been playing in the first place.



why look at history? people have thought roy williams (no offense) and deion branch we worth firsts. certainly dumervil has done more and proven more than either of those guys.



i think this is interesting reasoning and probably closer to the truth. though, i'd add that for some of the guys, finding the diamond in the rough or the next brady or whatever could be an extremely lucrative career move. i can see a certain amount of interest in trying to work through the draft given that.
I never factored in that he was playing out of position, so that is a good point. I also can agree with you on the RFA vs UFA reasoning. I think we're finding some medium here. But then you will have to factor in that only teams running the 3-4 defense should consider giving up that price. ...and you will have to make note that his production in that scheme is based off of one year's worth of work.

As for Roy and Deion... eh, WRs come with high bust factors and take a while to develop. ...and I mentioned that a move such as that would mean teams are doing it with the idea of the move "putting them over the top".

So we're now looking for a team with a 3-4 D, looking to go "over the top", who has the need of a OLB this year, and the GM is willing to put his neck on the line. Maybe GB, ARZ? I don't think NYJ or MIA would be willing to pull the trigger. Can't think of any other team. Options are so limited and the draft potential is plentiful.

D-Unit
12-04-2009, 01:43 PM
Players being 'worth' a first...this has always been a slightly overrated concept. In this draft firsts are definitely at a premium because it is deep and sexy, but usually there are plenty of busts and disappoints littered throughout the first round. Proven pro bowl players are almost universally worth firsts unless they are old/have some other red flag. The downside is strictly the contract situation and that's up in the air. Players like Elvis and Allen seem easily worth the large contracts they'll command to me.
If Merriman leaves SD, would you be willing to give up a 1st and 3rd for Dumervil or would you rely on the draft?

CC.SD
12-04-2009, 01:45 PM
So we're now looking for a team with a 3-4 D, looking to go "over the top", who has the need of a OLB this year, and the GM is willing to put his neck on the line. Maybe GB, ARZ? I don't think NYJ or MIA would be willing to pull the trigger. Can't think of any other team. Options are so limited and the draft potential is plentiful.

Could see Green Bay pulling the trigger with Kampman in a contract year and not 100% on the transition.

It's tough to discuss now: there remains the possibility that a team will blow up their D and rebuild as a 3-4, and acquiring Elvis could be their big marquee move to make the transition.

Timbathia
12-04-2009, 01:51 PM
Players being 'worth' a first...this has always been a slightly overrated concept. In this draft firsts are definitely at a premium because it is deep and sexy, but usually there are plenty of busts and disappoints littered throughout the first round. Proven pro bowl players are almost universally worth firsts unless they are old/have some other red flag. The downside is strictly the contract situation and that's up in the air. Players like Elvis and Allen seem easily worth the large contracts they'll command to me.

I hate agreeing with Chargers fans, and saying this is a draft-oriented forum is generally risky, but draft picks are so over-rated.

Babylon
12-04-2009, 01:53 PM
me too. i hate having the guy who's leading the league in sacks when i could have two completely unproven guys. especially when that sack leader was taken in the fourth. i mean, that's STILL the most relevant thing about him right? and we're talking about DRAFT PICKS man. DRAFT PICKS. there's literally nothing more valuable. ever. he was a FOURTH ROUND PICK and we're talking about DRAFT PICKS.

but hey, it's cool. i was talking about tom brady in the context of him being a 6th round pick, not a qb.

further, i'm curious if you have any idea how many donkeys fans literally giggled when they saw you accuse me of being biased in favor of the broncos.


So beneath all the sarcasm i take it you'd give the 1st and 3rd for a guy who may or may not be on the upside of his career, i get that.

Let me also ask you this, would you do the deal if you were Cleveland/Detroit/St Louis? conceivably you'd be passing on an Eric Berry or a Suh or McCoy plus a very early 3rd to do that. In that case would you still make the trade?

FlyingElvis
12-04-2009, 02:00 PM
. . . i don't imagine a team giving up a top 10 choice for a non-qb RFA is all that likely . . .

already answered.

D-Unit
12-04-2009, 02:08 PM
Could see Green Bay pulling the trigger with Kampman in a contract year and not 100% on the transition.

It's tough to discuss now: there remains the possibility that a team will blow up their D and rebuild as a 3-4, and acquiring Elvis could be their big marquee move to make the transition.
Yeah GB is about the only one who might. Which makes this whole debate then... Would GB give up a 1st and 3rd... because the rest of the NFL probably wouldn't.

New 3-4 teams looking to transition would never pull a move like this. Like I said... this is a put us over the top type move. Not a rebuilding move. A rebuilding move is done through the draft. More picks the better.

Babylon
12-04-2009, 02:08 PM
already answered.

Sorry, didnt see that. Interesting then that me saying i wouldnt do it was treated with such shock and dismay.

TitanHope
12-04-2009, 02:13 PM
me too. i hate having the guy who's leading the league in sacks when i could have two completely unproven guys. especially when that sack leader was taken in the fourth. i mean, that's STILL the most relevant thing about him right? and we're talking about DRAFT PICKS man. DRAFT PICKS. there's literally nothing more valuable. ever. he was a FOURTH ROUND PICK and we're talking about DRAFT PICKS.

but hey, it's cool. i was talking about tom brady in the context of him being a 6th round pick, not a qb.

further, i'm curious if you have any idea how many donkeys fans literally giggled when they saw you accuse me of being biased in favor of the broncos.

I wonder what Allen Iverson would have to say about Doomgate...



http://img.youtube.com/vi/eGDBR2L5kzI/0.jpg

"He might've been a 4th Round pick this year, but if somebody saw him rushing the passer, it can be one game, out of all the highly drafted OLB's on the sideline, then he's been doing it luckily all year."


http://images.usatoday.com/sports/nba/_photos2/2002-05-07-iverson2.jpg

"We sittin' here, and he's supposed to be the NFL sack leader, and we're in here talkin' bout draft picks."


http://blog.pennlive.com/lvsports/2007/08/large_iverson.jpg

"We're talking bout draft picks! Not a game! Not a game! We're talking about a draft pick. Not a game! Not the game that Dumervil goes out there and terrorizes. Not the game. We talkin' bout a draft picks..."


http://www.maniacworld.com/classic-allen-iverson-rant.jpg

"How silly is that? Man, we're talkin' bout a draft picks. I know he's undersized and was taken late and he's supposed to lead the defense...I know that. And I'm not shoving smart franchise decisions aside. I know it's important. I do. I honestly do...but we talkin' about a draft picks, man!"


Bolded all the stuff I had to change. Hope I did ok on the fly. :cool:

Shahin
12-04-2009, 02:13 PM
Vernon Gholston FTL.

is Gholston doing ANYTHING this year?


been a fan of Dumervil's since his Louisville days

FlyingElvis
12-04-2009, 02:21 PM
Yeah GB is about the only one who might. Which makes this whole debate then... Would GB give up a 1st and 3rd... because the rest of the NFL probably wouldn't.

New 3-4 teams looking to transition would never pull a move like this. Like I said... this is a put us over the top type move. Not a rebuilding move. A rebuilding move is done through the draft. More picks the better.
IDK - it seems like exactly the type of thing BB would do. Draft picks are constantly traded away, young LB are constantly passed over in the draft, veteran FA LBs are pretty much the only resource Bill uses to replenish the LB core, and the pass rush ability Doom has shown is exactly what we need to put NE over the top.

Sorry, didnt see that. Interesting then that me saying i wouldnt do it was treated with such shock and dismay.

I'm pretty sure if you said good morning to njx he would sound shocked and dismayed when saying good morning back. ;)

gsorace
12-04-2009, 02:45 PM
is Gholston doing ANYTHING this year?

If he happens to be active that week he gets some playing time on special teams, he doesn't see the field on defense anymore, he's been surpassed on the depth chart by an undrafted rookie

Babylon
12-04-2009, 03:12 PM
it had nothing to do with your idea (trade or not) and everything to do with the crappy supporting "argument" you made concerning 4th round draft picks. you'll notice you're not the only one who said you wouldn't give up the 1/3.



it's a little weird how well that fit...



well i certainly wouldn't be *happy* about it =P

Mr. all business actually said something funny. There might be hope for you yet.

P-L
12-04-2009, 05:52 PM
Roy Williams fetched a 1st, 3rd, and 6th. Doom is a much better player and plays a more important position. I don't see why he wouldn't be worth a 1st and 3rd.

CC.SD
12-04-2009, 05:55 PM
If Merriman leaves SD, would you be willing to give up a 1st and 3rd for Dumervil or would you rely on the draft?

I'm hoping we already relied on the draft with Larry English on the roster. If Merriman left I'd hope for a 2nd/3rd round pick to be used on a 3rd pass rusher to pair with him and Phillips.

Sniper
12-04-2009, 06:08 PM
Roy Williams fetched a 1st, 3rd, and 6th.
Not everyone's as dumb as Jerrah.

bigbuc
12-04-2009, 06:47 PM
Roy Williams fetched a 1st, 3rd, and 6th. Doom is a much better player and plays a more important position. I don't see why he wouldn't be worth a 1st and 3rd.


With the Williams trade that's called getting taken for one.

MetSox17
12-04-2009, 06:50 PM
No, the Joey Galloway trade is getting taken.

D-Unit
12-04-2009, 07:21 PM
With hindsight 20/20, that Roy Williams trade was a dumb one. But I don't see how anyone in their right mind would use that as logic to explain that Dumervil is now worth a 1st and 3rd. Does every player doing better than Roy Williams this year now command as such?

FUNBUNCHER
12-04-2009, 08:40 PM
Dumervil is a gifted pass rusher, but at 5'11, 260#, I'd have a hard time giving up a 1st and 3rd for him. He's a gifted, overachieving OLB/DE, but at his size, you gotta wonder about his staying power as an elite pass rusher.

I'd rather give a 2nd or 3rd and players for Dumervil instead of a 1st round pick.

All depends on the team and whether or not they see Dumervil as the missing piece on a defense that can carry a team on a deep playoff run.

Brothgar
12-04-2009, 08:44 PM
Dumervil is a gifted pass rusher, but at 5'11, 260#, I'd have a hard time giving up a 1st and 3rd for him. He's a gifted, overachieving OLB/DE, but at his size, you gotta wonder about his staying power as an elite pass rusher.

I'd rather give a 2nd or 3rd and players for Dumervil instead of a 1st round pick.

All depends on the team and whether or not they see Dumervil as the missing piece on a defense that can carry a team on a deep playoff run.

People have been saying that for Doom's entire career (collegiate, during the draft and during his career?) too small won't achieve down the line. I don't know when we are going to give this guy the benefit of the doubt.

Paranoidmoonduck
12-04-2009, 08:48 PM
Obviously the difference between the 1st pick in the 1st round and the 32nd pick in the 1st round is significant, but in most cases I do think Dumervil is worth that cost.

D-Unit
12-04-2009, 09:07 PM
It would only worth the cost to teams who need to make a move to put them over the top and they think an OLB is their last remaining need.

Saints-Tigers
12-05-2009, 12:58 AM
Dumervil has great size and power to keep up his production. 5'11 260 is ******* THICK.

He's short, not small.