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View Full Version : Donovan Warren leaning 'heavily' towards turning pro


truth393
12-03-2009, 05:47 PM
http://www.annarbor.com/sports/donovan-warren-leaning-heavily-towards-turning-pro/index.php
Warren, a third-year junior who led Michigan with 4 interceptions this year, has filed paperwork to ask the NFL's underclass advisory committee for his draft status.

He said Thursday their input will play into his decision, but turning pro is "just something that I believe it's just for me."

"I'm definitely, I'd have to say heavily, I like the chances of me coming out," Warren said at Michigan's annual football bust.

Warren said he planned to make a decision “within 2 weeks or so,” likely before the advisory committee reports back on his draft status.

I hope Detroit draft this guy in the 2nd round, if he's available.

WMD
12-03-2009, 05:49 PM
Michigan's defense without Brandon Graham and Donovan Warren is gonna be very depressing.

SickwithIt1010
12-03-2009, 05:50 PM
Don't let Sniper see this thread lol.

D-Unit
12-03-2009, 06:00 PM
Warren got taken in the 3rd round of our last Forum Mock. I think he'll go much higher than that.

Cicero
12-03-2009, 06:07 PM
Warren got taken in the 3rd round of our last Forum Mock. I think he'll go much higher than that.

I'm with you on that one.

Thumper
12-03-2009, 06:10 PM
Really like him as a prospect and I feel like he is a first round talent who has his best football in front of him.

Here is what I wrote a few weeks ago in the Eagles Draft Discussion Thread:
Donovan Warren- Sniper probably knows more than me, but my impression of Warren is that he is a great man to man corner who can stick with his man but he gets exposed because Michigan can't get pressure. Warren has 4 interceptions on the season and seems to be a very athletic corner who is fluid and flexible and perhaps his best asset is his size at 6' 200 pounds with 4.4 speed. He has the physical abilities of a shut down corner with his long, lean frame, his speed and his long arms. But on those interceptions, Warren has shown a nice ability to jump routes, read the QB and has shown nice instincts. I really like Warren and I feel like he is the second best corner in this class but he falls behind others because of the defense he is on.

MidwayMonster31
12-03-2009, 06:18 PM
Warren has the stuff to be a successful cornerback. With the uncertainty surrounding Rich Rodriguez and Michigan's program, he would be wise to get out while he can. He should be good in man coverage and excel in zone coverage with his instincts. He looks like he can rise up the boards once teams look at the film.

D-Unit
12-03-2009, 06:25 PM
Lot of nice things to hear about him.

What prevents Warren from being the first CB taken?

Thumper
12-03-2009, 06:26 PM
Lot of nice things to hear about him.

What prevents Warren from being the first CB taken?

Joe Haden does.

D-Unit
12-03-2009, 06:37 PM
Joe Haden does.
I know Warren is ranked lower. My question, which you missed completely, is why?

SickwithIt1010
12-03-2009, 06:47 PM
I know Warren is ranked lower. My question, which you missed completely, is why?

I think he may get overshadowed a little bit due to how negatively Michigan has been looked at as a football team, people seem to forget about the good players who play there...

Joe Haden on the other hand...well he is a gator lol

Sniper
12-03-2009, 06:50 PM
Be right back. Going to kill myself.

SickwithIt1010
12-03-2009, 06:51 PM
Be right back. Going to kill myself.

See what you guys have done!

bearsfan_51
12-03-2009, 06:54 PM
Of course he is, I don't know why anyone thought otherwise. He's probably a late 1st round pick right now. Even the most optimistic Michigan fans are talking about maybe winning 7-8 games next year.

Sniper
12-03-2009, 06:57 PM
And we were so damn close to fielding a competent defense, too. ************* ****! Losing your two best defenders + the best punter in America = **** **** **** **** **** ****.

Thumper
12-03-2009, 07:06 PM
I know Warren is ranked lower. My question, which you missed completely, is why?

Your question was what prevents Warren from being taken first, Joe Haden does.

Why? It isn't a knock on Warren. Joe Haden is just the prototype CB at 5'10" 190 pounds with 4.3 speed.

Joe Haden's statistics? (http://www.miamiherald.com/sports/colleges/uf/story/1360844.html)
Haden is second among Florida defenders with 59 tackles but leads the Gators in solo stops (46). He has recorded three sacks this season and leads the team in interceptions (seven) and pass defenses (seven). He also has forced two fumbles. With a vertical leap measured above 40 inches and a 40-yard dash time around 4.3 seconds, Haden is considered among the best athletes in college football.

Haden is the ideal CB when you factor in his size and athletic ability, he can run with anyone at any level no matter how big and fast someone is. Joe Haden is also one of the best in the country with his footwork and with his body control. And according to many, he is the best closer in the country, getting many interceptions and defending a plethora of passes. And in addition, Haden looks great in both man and zone coverage. Not to mention, Joe Haden hits like a safety which should come as no surprise seeing as he has a thick build. Right now Joe Haden looks like the next great CB in the NFL.

Donovan Warren on the other hand is much more raw than Haden is and that might just be a product of coaching. Not to mention, he gets beat deep from time to time. Warren is probably just as physically gifted as Haden is but he has yet to put it all together like Haden. Warren's tape is probably going to be a little bit sketchy at times just because the Michigan defense really did absolutely nothing to help him aside from Brandon Graham. Warren is going to impress at the combine, where he will have a chance to show off his talents because he is an extremely fluid athlete who has long arms and can easily flip his hips. Like Haden, Warren has nice footwork and has the ability to sit on a route and break to make the interception, also like Haden, Warren has great body control. The only problem is that Warren is a lot less refined, gets beat more often and isn't as productive. In terms of physical skill and athletic ability Warren and Haden are neck in neck but Haden is just much more polished which IMO is a product of poor coaching.

The sky is the limit for both of them, great athletes who have all the tools to be shut down corners but right now Haden is better prepared to play right away.

Sniper
12-03-2009, 07:09 PM
Warren has poor ball skills, average speed and marginal return skills. He also has a lingering ankle injury.

On the flip side, he's fantastic in man coverage. If he goes to a team with competent safeties, he'll make someone very happy. His tackling, once pitiful and atrocious, is actually pretty damn good now. Not quite on Haden's level, but he's good. Really good.

Please come back, Warren!

Thumper
12-03-2009, 07:11 PM
Warren has poor ball skills, average speed and marginal return skills. He also has a lingering ankle injury.

On the flip side, he's fantastic in man coverage. If he goes to a team with competent safeties, he'll make someone very happy. His tackling, once pitiful and atrocious, is actually pretty damn good now. Not quite on Haden's level, but he's good. Really good.

Please come back, Warren!

How is he in press coverage?

ThePudge
12-03-2009, 07:11 PM
I know Warren is ranked lower. My question, which you missed completely, is why?

He answered it how I would. Joe Haden, who has a Top 10-15 grade, prevents Warren from being the 1st CB drafted. Warren just isn't quite the standout player and prospect that Haden is. He's not all too far behind, but Haden's simply an athletic marvel and the best player on that Gators defense. Haden is likely the best CB in college football, ahead of Warren and LSU's Patrick Peterson (who should be an excellent prospect next year.)

The numbers are similar, some qualities are similar, the physical ability is similar, but Haden's just performed a little bit better as a whole in his career and done it against the nation's top competition. The ball skills with Haden are a bit better, and he's been asked to do more at UF than Warren and really has succeeded in a big way. It's just very hard to put anyone above Haden right now at CB.

Excited to see the two juniors work out for teams and to get feedback.

Sniper
12-03-2009, 07:13 PM
How is he in press coverage?

In limited reps, pretty good. Thing is, UM could never get away with press because of the fact that they have walk-ons and ******** apes patrolling the secondary at safeties.

D-Unit
12-03-2009, 07:13 PM
Your question was what prevents Warren from being taken first, Joe Haden does.

Why? It isn't a knock on Warren. Joe Haden is just the prototype CB at 5'10" 190 pounds with 4.3 speed.

Joe Haden's statistics? (http://www.miamiherald.com/sports/colleges/uf/story/1360844.html)


Haden is the ideal CB when you factor in his size and athletic ability, he can run with anyone at any level no matter how big and fast someone is. Joe Haden is also one of the best in the country with his footwork and with his body control. And according to many, he is the best closer in the country, getting many interceptions and defending a plethora of passes. And in addition, Haden looks great in both man and zone coverage. Not to mention, Joe Haden hits like a safety which should come as no surprise seeing as he has a thick build. Right now Joe Haden looks like the next great CB in the NFL.

Donovan Warren on the other hand is much more raw than Haden is and that might just be a product of coaching. Not to mention, he gets beat deep from time to time. Warren is probably just as physically gifted as Haden is but he has yet to put it all together like Haden. Warren's tape is probably going to be a little bit sketchy at times just because the Michigan defense really did absolutely nothing to help him aside from Brandon Graham. Warren is going to impress at the combine, where he will have a chance to show off his talents because he is an extremely fluid athlete who has long arms and can easily flip his hips. Like Haden, Warren has nice footwork and has the ability to sit on a route and break to make the interception, also like Haden, Warren has great body control. The only problem is that Warren is a lot less refined, gets beat more often and isn't as productive. In terms of physical skill and athletic ability Warren and Haden are neck in neck but Haden is just much more polished which IMO is a product of poor coaching.

The sky is the limit for both of them, great athletes who have all the tools to be shut down corners but right now Haden is better prepared to play right away.
That's a much better answer. I knew I could get it out of you.

I'm not necessarily a big fan of either. Not here to defend Warren as much as I'm trying to get a better feel for him.

Are others in agreement with Thumper? That that Warren is a lot less refined, gets beat more often and isn't as productive?

Personally, my favorite is Perrish Cox. Hands down. If I could declare one CB that I want on my team in this draft, it's him.

Sniper
12-03-2009, 07:15 PM
Are others in agreement with Thumper? That that Warren is a lot less refined, gets beat more often and isn't as productive?

Yeah, but UM's safety play has A LOT to do with this.

JFLO
12-03-2009, 07:16 PM
How is Donovan Warren against the run? I know Haden isn't afraid to be physical and it has tremendously improved this season, along with his coverage abilities.

So Warren against the run?

Sniper
12-03-2009, 07:18 PM
How is Donovan Warren against the run? I know Haden isn't afraid to be physical and it has tremendously improved this season, along with his coverage abilities.

So Warren against the run?

Much, much improved. He's not Haden, but his tackling and willingness to tackle have both improved tremendously over three years.

LonghornsLegend
12-03-2009, 07:43 PM
Warren and Haden had been my favorite 2 CB prospects for a long time and it be nice to see them come out of the same class. Haden is just an extreme athlete who still has an amazing amount of potential to tap into at the corner position because he hasn't even been playing it that long. He's already got the look of a guy who can be shut down and should still be improving a few years into the league.


Warren always impressed me with his man coverage, trying to compare him to Haden is a bit unfair because Haden could make anyone drool at his long term prospects at the next level, but Warren isn't far behind to me. If he even goes to the 2nd round he'd be a steal and I like him alot better then someone like Alphonso Smith last year. I haven't seen much of Michigan, but I did come away more impressed when he was man to man more so then zone where as I think Haden can do both really well.


I personally think Warren is more refined then Haden but that's just me, Haden plays alot off of physical attributes, which it's not really a bad thing but he doesn't have all the little nuances to playing corner down like someone would who has been playing primarily DB/CB since grade school. I have no doubts Warren can be a #1 corner and should provide some great value in the draft, but he doesn't have the amazing ceiling Haden does obviously.

ironman4579
12-03-2009, 07:59 PM
I said at the beginning of the year that if you were looking for a corner to play primarily man to man (ie, last few years in Green Bay), Warren was likely at the top of the list. His zone play was not very good at that point.

This year, his man play has been excellent, and his zone play has been quite good as well (although it kind of had to improve, as he seemed to be playing a deep half or third a good percentage of the time). His tackling is light years better than it was, and his willingness against the run is also much better.

Negatives for me are lack of ball skills, brick hands (although his hands actually looked better this year. He always seems to pick off the tough ones and drop INT's that he should get), and I would say there are times when he lets himself be blocked out of plays too easily by WR's, just accepting blocks and giving ground. I've also had a concern for a long time that he uses his hands a little too much downfield, which could lead to some PI calls in the new NFL. He also needs to learn to get his head around a little more often on some plays IMO.

Still a first or early second rounder IMO.

goblue8888
12-03-2009, 08:00 PM
Terrible decision, he needed another year. He won't test well and is not close to as good of prospect as guys like Hall, Leseaur and Jackson were.

ironman4579
12-03-2009, 08:48 PM
Terrible decision, he needed another year. He won't test well and is not close to as good of prospect as guys like Hall, Leseaur and Jackson were.

I don't know about that. I'd take Warren over Leseaur without much hesitation and Warren is a better man cover guy than Jackson IMO (although I like Jackson better in zone).

619
12-03-2009, 08:53 PM
Terrible decision, he needed another year. He won't test well and is not close to as good of prospect as guys like Hall, Leseaur and Jackson were.

This is one of those situations where I'm not sure a guy's stock would improve all that much by staying, especially given Michigan's current situation. He'd realistically be graded in the same range next year as he'd be this year. He's not going to test well, as you said, and as a result it's going to continue to hold him from first round discussion. First round cover corners are expected to test extremely well to be taken seriously, that's just the nature of the position.

Mr.Regular
12-03-2009, 09:04 PM
I love Warren. I think he would be the #2 corner off the board (Haden). He's impressed me this year.

Michigan
12-03-2009, 09:38 PM
Not to mention, he gets beat deep from time to time.

Since when?

I don't know about that. I'd take Warren over Leseaur without much hesitation and Warren is a better man cover guy than Jackson IMO (although I like Jackson better in zone).

Woooahhhhhh there. No one completed passes (or even tried to) on Marlin Jackson during his senior year (his entire cornerback career, actually).

Warren is very similar to what Lesueur was as a prospect. Same size (6'0 200), same athleticism, same technical flaws, and both excelled in man coverage (i can't remember either getting beat deep). I think Lesueur actually looked better in college because the defense around him was 3724834234x better. I think Warren gets drafted around the same range Lesueur did (2nd-3rd), but will have much more NFL success.

ironman4579
12-03-2009, 09:59 PM
Since when?



Woooahhhhhh there. No one completed passes (or even tried to) on Marlin Jackson during his senior year (his entire cornerback career, actually).

Warren is very similar to what Lesueur was as a prospect. Same size (6'0 200), same athleticism, same technical flaws, and both excelled in man coverage (i can't remember either getting beat deep). I think Lesueur actually looked better in college because the defense around him was 3724834234x better. I think Warren gets drafted around the same range Lesueur did (2nd-3rd), but will have much more NFL success.

Which doesn't change my opinion in any way that Warren is a better man corner than Jackson. Jackson was more physical. I think Warren is more fluid.

I consider Warren a superior prospect to Lesueur, and I stick by that.

Hines
12-03-2009, 10:31 PM
How would he fit into the Steelers' zone blitz scheme? I really want him on the Steelers.

SenorGato
12-03-2009, 11:49 PM
I really like mid-late 2000's Michigan guys, and I'm always shocked at how underrated they are (Harris, Woodley, Graham though that's dying quickly).

3-4 teams seriously have alot to thank these recent Michigan teams for, and I think Warren will slide right in there. I'd love him in Round 2 for the Jets.

Michigan
12-04-2009, 12:49 AM
I really like mid-late 2000's Michigan guys, and I'm always shocked at how underrated they are (Harris, Woodley, Graham though that's dying quickly).


You mean the 2006 Michigan team? Half the starting lineup is in the NFL, but even more impressive is the quality of players.

Current NFL Starters:
Jake Long, LT Miami Dolphins
LaMarr Woodley, LB Pittsburgh Steelers
Leon Hall, CB Cincinnati Bengals
David Harris, LB New York Jets
Chad Henne, QB Miami Dolphins
Steve Breaston, WR Arizona Cardinals
Mario Manningham, WR New York Giants

Current NFL Reserves:
Alan Branch, DT Arizona Cardinals
Morgan Trent, CB Cincinnati Bengals
Prescott Burgess, LB Baltimore Ravens
Mike Hart, RB Indianapolis Colts

Injured Reseve:
Shawn Crable, LB New England Patriots

D-Unit
12-04-2009, 12:51 AM
You mean the 2006 Michigan team? Half the starting lineup is in the NFL, but even more impressive is the quality of players.

Current NFL Starters:
Jake Long, LT Miami Dolphins
LaMarr Woodley, LB Pittsburgh Steelers
Leon Hall, CB Cincinnati Bengals
David Harris, LB New York Jets
Chad Henne, QB Miami Dolphins
Steve Breaston, WR Arizona Cardinals
Mario Manningham, WR New York Giants

Current NFL Reserves:
Alan Branch, DT Arizona Cardinals
Morgan Trent, CB Cincinnati Bengals
Prescott Burgess, LB Baltimore Ravens

Injured Reseve:
Shawn Crable, LB New England Patriots
It's so sad how Rich Rodriguez ruined that pipeline. So many Michigan fans disrespected Carr. Pity.

Scotty D
12-04-2009, 06:32 AM
Steve Breaston's success has surprised me the most. Breaston drafted in the fifth round and Ginn drafted #9 lolll.

ironman4579
12-04-2009, 07:44 AM
You mean the 2006 Michigan team? Half the starting lineup is in the NFL, but even more impressive is the quality of players.

Current NFL Starters:
Jake Long, LT Miami Dolphins
LaMarr Woodley, LB Pittsburgh Steelers
Leon Hall, CB Cincinnati Bengals
David Harris, LB New York Jets
Chad Henne, QB Miami Dolphins
Steve Breaston, WR Arizona Cardinals
Mario Manningham, WR New York Giants

Current NFL Reserves:
Alan Branch, DT Arizona Cardinals
Morgan Trent, CB Cincinnati Bengals
Prescott Burgess, LB Baltimore Ravens
Mike Hart, RB Indianapolis Colts

Injured Reseve:
Shawn Crable, LB New England Patriots

Think about that 2006 defense. When you look at it, why the hell couldn't we have ran a 3-4 that year? That would have been the best college 3-4 defense like, ever.

OLB
LaMarr Woodley
Shawn Crable

ILB
David Harris
Prescott Burgess

DL
Alan Branch
Terrance Taylor (when he was good and gave a crap about football)
I don't know who else here, but does it matter?

CB
Leon Hall
Morgan Trent (weak spot)

S
Jamar Adams
Brandent Englemon


That's like the 3-4 college defense from hell.

Sniper
12-04-2009, 09:54 AM
It's so sad how Rich Rodriguez ruined that pipeline.

You can base this off of two years when none of his recruited players have graduated? Graham, Warren and Mesko all had their best years under Rodriguez. Funny how Graham went from a one-dimensional pass-rusher to an all-around beast/destroyer of worlds under Rodriguez. Funny how Warren got much better at his all-around game under Rodriguez. Mesko's punting average also rose both years. But yeah, let's make idiotic claims with no backing. That makes sense.

Rodriguez's first class will finally be draft-eligible next season. None of them are likely to bolt early, but then again, Michigan's always had a strong record with keeping players for their senior years, with a few exceptions.

AkiliSmith
12-04-2009, 10:00 AM
Think about that 2006 defense. When you look at it, why the hell couldn't we have ran a 3-4 that year? That would have been the best college 3-4 defense like, ever.

OLB
LaMarr Woodley
Shawn Crable

ILB
David Harris
Prescott Burgess

DL
Alan Branch
Terrance Taylor (when he was good and gave a crap about football)
I don't know who else here, but does it matter?

CB
Leon Hall
Morgan Trent (weak spot)

S
Jamar Adams
Brandent Englemon


That's like the 3-4 college defense from hell.
Trent has been a beast at nickel this season for the Bengals

ironman4579
12-04-2009, 10:01 AM
You can base this off of two years when none of his recruited players have graduated? Graham, Warren and Mesko all had their best years under Rodriguez. Funny how Graham went from a one-dimensional pass-rusher to an all-around beast/destroyer of worlds under Rodriguez. Funny how Warren got much better at his all-around game under Rodriguez. Mesko's punting average also rose both years. But yeah, let's make idiotic claims with no backing. That makes sense.

Rodriguez's first class will finally be draft-eligible next season. None of them are likely to bolt early, but then again, Michigan's always had a strong record with keeping players for their senior years, with a few exceptions.

While I completely disagree with D-Unit on this one, I don't really think it's any more fair to give Rod a ton of credit for Graham and Warren. Graham was a sophmore under Carr, and while he was mainly a pass rush threat, he was also an extremely hard worker. I would expect the type of improvement he's had over his final two seasons from a guy with his work ethic and desire to be great. Warren had a very good freshman season under Carr, a bad sophmore year under Rod, and a very good junior season under Rod.

I think it would be fairly easy to point out guys that regressed a bit as well so far under Rod.

Again, I disagree with D, in that none of Rod's recruits have even played their junior season yet. But I also don't think you can give him credit for guys like Graham and Warren either.

ironman4579
12-04-2009, 10:02 AM
Trent has been a beast at nickel this season for the Bengals

Which I am completely shocked about by the way. He'd still be the weak spot on that defense.

Sniper
12-04-2009, 10:09 AM
Warren had a very good freshman season under Carr, a bad sophmore year under Rod, and a very good junior season under Rod.

Warren's bad sophomore year is basically due to his disgust with Scott Shafer (hey, we have something in common!) and a lingering injury that bothered him all season. Warren's "very good freshman season" was probably worse than his sophomore year, but because he was a freshman, he seemed more impressive. He also had a lot more talent around him in '07 than '08 and the offense didn't keep him on the field for 48 minutes per game.

I think it would be fairly easy to point out guys that regressed a bit as well so far under Rod.

Obi Ezeh is probably the poster boy for this, but I think a lot can be attributed to not having Ron English around to make Ezeh strictly a run thumper.

But I also don't think you can give him credit for guys like Graham and Warren either.

I think you can, but maybe I'm wrong. Graham and Warren both had their two best seasons under Rodriguez. Before Rodriguez got to campus, Graham had ballooned up to 290 pounds, so I have to question the "great work ethic" part. He was almost moved to DT because he ate too much. Barwis and Co. brought him back down to the mid-260s.

ironman4579
12-04-2009, 10:27 AM
Warren's bad sophomore year is basically due to his disgust with Scott Shafer (hey, we have something in common!) and a lingering injury that bothered him all season. Warren's "very good freshman season" was probably worse than his sophomore year, but because he was a freshman, he seemed more impressive. He also had a lot more talent around him in '07 than '08 and the offense didn't keep him on the field for 48 minutes per game.



Obi Ezeh is probably the poster boy for this, but I think a lot can be attributed to not having Ron English around to make Ezeh strictly a run thumper.



I think you can, but maybe I'm wrong. Graham and Warren both had their two best seasons under Rodriguez. Before Rodriguez got to campus, Graham had ballooned up to 290 pounds, so I have to question the "great work ethic" part. He was almost moved to DT because he ate too much. Barwis and Co. brought him back down to the mid-260s.

Maybe I'm crazy, but I don't think Graham was 290 pounds in 2007. Maybe that's just me.

I completely disagree that Warren's freshman year was worse than his soph year. I don't even know what to say to that.

I would assume that both guys would have their best seasons under Rod (although as I said, I disagree on Warren's soph season). They were a freshman and sophmore under Carr. I would assume they would improve in their sophmore/junior/senior seasons. If they didn't you'd have a real problem.

You can point out Ezeh, but I'd say guys like Mouton and Terrance Taylor also regressed big time. The LB's have more to do with a certain position coach than anything IMO (who is apparently staying by the way)

Again though, I'm not trying to run down Rod here. After the Purdue and Illinois losses I've had time to think, and am of the opinion that he should get at least next year, and if he goes 7-5 or so (which is what I'm thinking is most likely), he should get 2011 to see what he can do with a team full of seniors and juniors.

I'm just saying I really don't think you can give him credit for guys that he only coached for two years (one of whom I still maintain had one worse season, mitigating factors taken into account), but then absolve him of all responsibility for guys that have regressed. It's all or nothing IMO. You can't pick and choose.

By the way, I realize this was one of the most disjointed posts ever.

D-Unit
12-04-2009, 10:33 AM
You can base this off of two years when none of his recruited players have graduated? Graham, Warren and Mesko all had their best years under Rodriguez. Funny how Graham went from a one-dimensional pass-rusher to an all-around beast/destroyer of worlds under Rodriguez. Funny how Warren got much better at his all-around game under Rodriguez. Mesko's punting average also rose both years. But yeah, let's make idiotic claims with no backing. That makes sense.

Rodriguez's first class will finally be draft-eligible next season. None of them are likely to bolt early, but then again, Michigan's always had a strong record with keeping players for their senior years, with a few exceptions.
Allow me to clarify. Rich ruined the offensive pipeline. His scheme is not an NFL scheme. NFL prospects like Mallet left Michigan because of it. Pro style recruits looked elsewhere while Rich looked for gimmicky players.

Defensively, the change was not nearly as dramatic. Michigan is still a big time program that can attract top notch kids on that side of the ball. Graham and Warren are not Rich guys. Just because they got better, doesn't mean they wouldn't have under Carr. I don't know what you're trying to suggest.

Rich was a mistake hire. ...and he'll be fired even though guys like you support him. I think Michigan should pry Jim Harbaugh away from Stanford. NOW.

Sniper
12-04-2009, 11:36 AM
Maybe I'm crazy, but I don't think Graham was 290 pounds in 2007. Maybe that's just me.

http://espn.go.com/blog/bigten/post/_/id/30/checking-in-with-mike-barwis-part-ii

If you're looking for an example, at 287 pounds, Brandon Graham did 315 pounds on the bench press. We cut him all the way down to 250 and then brought him back up to 269. At 269 today, he did 475 for two (repetitions) on the bench.

http://www.cbssports.com/collegefootball/story/10900421/2

Junior defensive end Brandon Graham sliced his weight from 287 to 255 and saw his bench press go from 315 pounds to 430.

287. Close enough to 290, depending on what he had to eat that day.

I completely disagree that Warren's freshman year was worse than his soph year. I don't even know what to say to that.

Agree to disagree. To me, his sophomore year looked worse because we expected bigger things after a good freshman year.

I would assume that both guys would have their best seasons under Rod (although as I said, I disagree on Warren's soph season). They were a freshman and sophmore under Carr. I would assume they would improve in their sophmore/junior/senior seasons. If they didn't you'd have a real problem.

I would as well. However, not everyone improves. See Ezeh, Obi, Mouton, Jonas and Brown, Stevie. Graham was a one-dimensional pass rusher with virtually zero run defense skills. He got so much better at it, to the point where he's arguably the best run-defending DE in the draft. He got great at using his hands, leverage and strength.

You can point out Ezeh, but I'd say guys like Mouton and Terrance Taylor also regressed big time. The LB's have more to do with a certain position coach than anything IMO (who is apparently staying by the way)

Jay Hopson can die in a fire. He's gotten us nothing from his recruiting areas, and his position group has been the worse on the team...by far. Taylor was one of the laziest players in recent UM history, perhaps only topped by Gabe Watson. We kept expecting for the light to come on, even during his junior year with Carr, yet he continually underperformed. Taylor almost quit the team because of the new conditioning regime. That, to me, speaks volumes about his work ethic, or the lack thereof.

Again though, I'm not trying to run down Rod here. After the Purdue and Illinois losses I've had time to think, and am of the opinion that he should get at least next year, and if he goes 7-5 or so (which is what I'm thinking is most likely), he should get 2011 to see what he can do with a team full of seniors and juniors.

8 wins or he should be fired, unless some of those losses are from devastating injuries to major players. (Forcier, Molk, Schilling, Roh, Martin, RVB, Campbell)

I'm just saying I really don't think you can give him credit for guys that he only coached for two years (one of whom I still maintain had one worse season, mitigating factors taken into account), but then absolve him of all responsibility for guys that have regressed. It's all or nothing IMO. You can't pick and choose.

Why can you give Carr credit for a player like Graham when he only coached him for the first two years? I'm not picking and choosing. He's had some good, some bad. However, I think it's fair to say that Rodriguez produced Graham.

D-Unit
12-04-2009, 11:41 AM
If Graham was made the player that he is today because of Carr, then why hasn't Rich eveer developed other DE/OLBs like him?

Just because Graham got better doesn't mean it's all because of Rich. Experience and physical growth matters in player development.

Sniper
12-04-2009, 11:47 AM
If Graham was made the player that he is today because of Carr, then why hasn't Rich eveer developed other DE/OLBs like him?

Just because Graham got better doesn't mean it's all because of Rich. Experience and physical growth matters in player development.

So why was all of the success that guys like Brady Quinn and Jeff Samardzija had attributed to Charlie Weis?

ironman4579
12-04-2009, 11:59 AM
8 wins or he should be fired, unless some of those losses are from devastating injuries to major players. (Forcier, Molk, Schilling, Roh, Martin, RVB, Campbell)



Why can you give Carr credit for a player like Graham when he only coached him for the first two years? I'm not picking and choosing. He's had some good, some bad. However, I think it's fair to say that Rodriguez produced Graham.

I'm actually not saying you can do that either. I think it was a combination of both guys honestly.

I really don't see 8 wins on the schedule right now. If Claussen leaves early from ND, then I can see 8.

And do you mean 8 wins including a bowl win? Or 8 wins before a bowl game.

D-Unit
12-04-2009, 12:12 PM
So why was all of the success that guys like Brady Quinn and Jeff Samardzija had attributed to Charlie Weis?
Because Weis was an NFL offensive coordinator who developed Tom Brady. When he arrived to ND Quinn and Samardzija were below average players. Graham was already a budding star at Michigan and what defensive players has Rich been known to send to the NFL that we can say he "produced"?

Sniper
12-04-2009, 12:16 PM
I'm actually not saying you can do that either. I think it was a combination of both guys honestly.

I really don't see 8 wins on the schedule right now. If Claussen leaves early from ND, then I can see 8.

And do you mean 8 wins including a bowl win? Or 8 wins before a bowl game.

8 before. Clausen's gone, and so is Tate.

Vs. UConn- Win
@ ND- Win if Clausen/Tate are gone, loss if they're not
Vs. UMass- Win
Vs. Bowling Green- Win
@ Indiana- Win
Vs. Michigan State- Win
Vs. Iowa- Loss
@ Penn State- Loss
Vs. Illinois- Win
@ Purdue- Win
Vs. Wisconsin (who brings back EVERYONE)- Loss
@ Ohio State- Loss

I've got 8-4 on the premise that Jimmah QuadHeisman and Golden Tate are gone from ND. Dayne Crist is still recovering from a torn ACL, so if Clausen's gone, there's a strong chance that ND will start a true freshman QB in a new system.

Flip a coin for MSU, Iowa, and Illinois.

ironman4579
12-04-2009, 12:36 PM
8 before. Clausen's gone, and so is Tate.

Vs. UConn- Win
@ ND- Win if Clausen/Tate are gone, loss if they're not
Vs. UMass- Win
Vs. Bowling Green- Win
@ Indiana- Win
Vs. Michigan State- Win
Vs. Iowa- Loss
@ Penn State- Loss
Vs. Illinois- Win
@ Purdue- Win
Vs. Wisconsin (who brings back EVERYONE)- Loss
@ Ohio State- Loss

I've got 8-4 on the premise that Jimmah QuadHeisman and Golden Tate are gone from ND. Dayne Crist is still recovering from a torn ACL, so if Clausen's gone, there's a strong chance that ND will start a true freshman QB in a new system.

Flip a coin for MSU, Iowa, and Illinois.

Basically what I have as well. I would point out that there is a real possibility of yet another horrible season next year. UConn returns a bunch of Seniors and juniors, and was a better team than us last year. That could easily be a loss.

We barely beat Indiana last year at home, and this year is obviously on the road. They lose a bunch of guys off a not very good defense, and return just about everyone on offense. That could definately be a loss, and probably won't be an easy win.

MSU is a game we should win, but we also really should have won it this year as well IMO.

I wouldn't call Illinois or Purdue easy wins either, and again both could be losses.

I'm hoping for at least 7-5, but I don't think it'll be easy, and it could just as easily be a disaster. I think the line is very thin.

P-L
12-04-2009, 04:18 PM
This shouldn't be a surprise to any Michigan fan. Warren made up his mind that he was bolting for the NFL as soon as possible after his freshman year.

Michigan
12-04-2009, 11:18 PM
This shouldn't be a surprise to any Michigan fan. Warren made up his mind that he was bolting for the NFL as soon as possible after his freshman year.

Exactly.

Think about that 2006 defense. When you look at it, why the hell couldn't we have ran a 3-4 that year? That would have been the best college 3-4 defense like, ever.

OLB
LaMarr Woodley
Shawn Crable

ILB
David Harris
Prescott Burgess

DL
Alan Branch
Terrance Taylor (when he was good and gave a crap about football)
I don't know who else here, but does it matter?

CB
Leon Hall
Morgan Trent (weak spot)

S
Jamar Adams
Brandent Englemon


That's like the 3-4 college defense from hell.

Just thought I'd mention that Trent would not be a weakspot in this defense. He was VERY solid in 2006, but looked much worse in 07 and 08 because of the scheme/talent around him (he didn't improve very much from 06 to 08 though). I will admit that I'm surprised he's a decent NFLer.

Put 280 lb Brandon Graham at 3-4 DE lol.

ironman4579
12-05-2009, 01:26 AM
Exactly.



Just thought I'd mention that Trent would not be a weakspot in this defense. He was VERY solid in 2006, but looked much worse in 07 and 08 because of the scheme/talent around him (he didn't improve very much from 06 to 08 though). I will admit that I'm surprised he's a decent NFLer.

Put 280 lb Brandon Graham at 3-4 DE lol.


Other than getting completely torched in the Rose Bowl.................

But come on, you kind of have to admit that either he or Brandent Englemon would be/probably were the weakest player on the defense that year, and MFT's play the following years kind of makes him an easy target.

SRogers92
12-07-2009, 12:47 PM
We can easily beat PSU next year ... don't they have a true soph QB who has never played a game in his college career starting next year? And - is Royster coming back? Don't see why we can't beat them ...

Tate Forcier being a freshman cost us a few games by himself(MSU, OSU) ... I can easily see us winning 8 games next year, maybe more ...

Honestly -- I think Warren comes back ... I don't think an advisor will give him anything more then a late second round grade ... he won't test well and wasn't amazing this season, partially because of the team around him, but -- it should be better next year ...