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msolimani
12-11-2009, 05:27 PM
Thought it was an interesting question because the Top 3-5 are all so close statistically. These 5 teams are 1st in a few other defensive categories as well.


Top 5 in YPG allowed:
1) Green Bay Packers - 273.5
2) New York Jets - 276.4
3) Denver Broncos - 288.9
4) Cincinnati Bengals - 293.2
5) Pittsburgh Steelers - 294.1

Gay Ork Wang
12-11-2009, 05:31 PM
there is no really dominant defense this year like the last few years. some have played good, but not a single defense like a ravens or steelers defense the last year, that id say would just take over a game.

Splat
12-11-2009, 05:33 PM
I would rather look at PPG then YPG.

msolimani
12-11-2009, 05:38 PM
I was going to put up the Top 5 in a few categories but I figured it was easier to just get it going with YPG. Here's Top 5 PPG:

1) Cincinnati Bengals - 15.6
2) Indianapolis Colts - 16.8
3) Denver Broncos - 16.8
4) New York Jets - 17.3
5) Dallas Cowboys - 17.8

Boston
12-11-2009, 05:44 PM
Meh, PPG relies too much on the special teams play, and when your teams 'special' teams takes on a completely different meaning, you can't blame the defense.

I'd say something like yards per play and third down percentage would be a good indicator of how good a defense is.

msolimani
12-11-2009, 05:47 PM
I agree PPG is overrated. Look at a team like the Jets who have given an obscene amount of non-defensive TD's via Sanchez and the kickoff team.

Splat
12-11-2009, 05:51 PM
How can PPG be overrated win the whole point is to score as many points as you can and stop the other team from scoring?

MichaelJordanEberle (sabf)
12-11-2009, 05:57 PM
Broncos D is realllly good when they're fresh. But if the offense is struggling to move the ball, they get exposed because they're older than most, it seems, and not as deep.

tjsunstein
12-11-2009, 06:01 PM
Gotta look at turnovers forced as well. So many variables. I'd be interested in seeing the yards per play and third down percentage stats.

It's cool seeing the Packers as the number 1 defense when it comes to YPG but in our 4 losses, on average, we give up just under 350 PPG. Not exactly stellar.

I'd do the math on how well we did against the top offenses we've faced this year if I had the time.

We've lost to the Vikings twice (#5 offense in YPG), the Bengals (#18), and the Bucs (#27) but beat the Cowboys (#3). So I don't think it's about playing up, or down, to your competition but hitting your stride at the right time.

msolimani
12-11-2009, 06:05 PM
How can PPG be overrated win the whole point is to score as many points as you can and stop the other team from scoring?

Let me rephrase, PPG shouldnt be talked about over YPG in terms of defense like you said. I think it is important, but as Boston said above there are other factors that lead to the PPG total that a defense can't do anything about.

Iamcanadian
12-11-2009, 08:26 PM
Does it matter, the top 5 offensive teams this year are 41-8 according to Pat Kirwin, the top 5 defensive teams are 32-24. Defense doesn't mean as much as it used to mean.

wonderbredd24
12-11-2009, 08:28 PM
Does it matter, the top 5 offensive teams this year are 41-8 according to Pat Kirwin, the top 5 defensive teams are 32-24. Defense doesn't mean as much as it used to mean.

Much has changed since last year where the top defense won the Superbowl

You're using one statistic in one season that's not over yet and trying to correlate that to being NFL dogma

If a defensive team wins the Superbowl, then what?

Absolutely ********

Ravens1991
12-11-2009, 08:31 PM
I miss being able to throw the Ravens in this discussion thanks to this man...


http://www.blackbirdnation.com/images/GregMattison.jpg

LonghornsLegend
12-11-2009, 08:45 PM
Let me rephrase, PPG shouldnt be talked about over YPG in terms of defense like you said. I think it is important, but as Boston said above there are other factors that lead to the PPG total that a defense can't do anything about.

There are also factors that lead to YPG too. What about when a team racks up a bunch of meaningless yards at the end of the game when the other team is in prevent defense at that point? There are factors on both sides of the argument either way you want to look at it.


I'd rather look at both categories and see how a team fares in both to get an idea of how good a defense really is. Still, I'd rather hold a team to as few points as possible then I would be concerned about not alot of yardage. You can lose a game holding a team to under 200 yards total if they run back INT's for TD's, special teams TD's, defensive scores etc, but keeping teams under 16 points a game is a great recipe to have a chance to win every week.

PalmerToCJ
12-11-2009, 09:07 PM
I know this is going to come off as being a huge homer but here's the Bengals.

PPG - 1st
YPG - 4th
Rushing YPG - 1st
Passing YPG - 12th
3rd Down % - 1st
Pass Defenses - 1st
Sacks - T-10th
INT's - T-6th

Now, Peko is out probably until the season finale so I'm definitely concerned with how that is going to work out. He's the absolute key to the good run D. I'm afraid Peterson is going to have a game this Sunday.

We're sitting at 9-3 and it's not because of the offense. A lot also has to do with the Ravens/Patriots/Steelers defenses regressing this year.

msolimani
12-11-2009, 09:14 PM
I'd rather look at both categories and see how a team fares in both to get an idea of how good a defense really is.

That was kind of the idea of this thread. I wanted to see who everyone thought was the Top D in the league right now. Seems like we got a little side-tracked...

tjsunstein
12-11-2009, 10:14 PM
I know this is going to come off as being a huge homer but here's the Bengals.

PPG - 1st
YPG - 4th
Rushing YPG - 1st
Passing YPG - 12th
3rd Down % - 1st
Pass Defenses - 1st
Sacks - T-10th
INT's - T-6th

Now, Peko is out probably until the season finale so I'm definitely concerned with how that is going to work out. He's the absolute key to the good run D. I'm afraid Peterson is going to have a game this Sunday.

We're sitting at 9-3 and it's not because of the offense. A lot also has to do with the Ravens/Patriots/Steelers defenses regressing this year.

I counter with:

PPG - 9th
YPG - 1st
Rushing YPG - 4th
Passing YPG - 3rd
3rd Down % - T-2nd
Pass Defenses - T-2nd
Sacks - T-15th
INT's - T- 2nd


Both pretty impressive resumes. The Packers have finally opened up their defensive playbook and have been getting more pressure on the QB. Also done with the loss of Al Harris and Aaron Kampman with two rookies starting at OLB. Dom Capers is a genius.

Shiver
12-11-2009, 11:34 PM
There is no elite defense to be found. Even those mentioned thus far in this thread have had terrible weeks at times; the Bengals got embarrassed at home by the Texans, the Packers twice were demolished by the Vikings.

I am not sure I have an explanation. Is it parity of talent? A lot of teams have a premier defensive player or two but no stacked units like the great defenses that we've seen earlier this decade. Maybe it is that the offenses have caught up with what defenses are doing now, we are on pace to have the most 300 passing performances ever in a season.

I will say, though, that if Troy Polamalu and Aaron Smith were healthy we would not be having this discussion. The Steelers' defense is immortal with them, fatally exposed without.

Iamcanadian
12-12-2009, 12:51 AM
Much has changed since last year where the top defense won the Superbowl

You're using one statistic in one season that's not over yet and trying to correlate that to being NFL dogma

If a defensive team wins the Superbowl, then what?

Absolutely ********

Well, when I look at Pittsburgh, Arizona I see 2 franchise QB's, when I look at Eli, I see a franchise QB, ditto for Peyton and Brady. Seems like a pretty strong trend to me. By the way, didn't Eli's last drive win the SB for the Giants oh and Pittsburgh's last drive led by Rothlisberger and Holmes won the Super Bowl for them. H...mmm every strong SB contender this year seems to have a franchise QB and are responsible for that 41-8 record, but you keep going on with your theory that a defensive team alone will win another SB this year.

PalmerToCJ
12-12-2009, 02:27 AM
I will definitely agree on there being no dominant defense this year. Mostly because of NE/PIT/BAL falling off. The Bengals getting smoked vs. Houston was because of Peko/Odom getting hurt early, I'm curious to see how they hold up these next few games without Peko. He's just HUGE for our run D. No one gets through the middle with him there, Peterson will be a huge test.

Supporting Caste
12-12-2009, 03:13 AM
I'd probably roll with the Jets.

21ST
12-12-2009, 09:15 AM
How can PPG be overrated win the whole point is to score as many points as you can and stop the other team from scoring?

Its not overrated as an overall stat, but when seeing which defense is the best it is because you dont have to score points on the defense. I also think you have to throw average starting field postion in there somewhere.

Brent
12-12-2009, 09:54 AM
at some point, defenses will react and someone will come up with some new way to shut down the top offenses. the nfl will react, etc.
That's how it has been for years now. Easy example: Panthers CBs toss around WRs in the playoffs on their way to super bowl, league gets super picky about contact. Your average NFL viewer doesn't want to see great defense, they want to see high scoring games that lack slow periods of play.

LizardState
12-12-2009, 11:26 AM
I miss being able to throw the Ravens in this discussion thanks to this man...


http://www.blackbirdnation.com/images/GregMattison.jpg

They got older & slower, team youth & team speed are major factors that the Ravens seem to have overlooked recently. It happens to the best of them.

I was going to put up the Top 5 in a few categories but I figured it was easier to just get it going with YPG. Here's Top 5 PPG:

1) Cincinnati Bengals - 15.6

And that's without sackmaster Antwan Odom who's on IR after leading the league with 5 sacks. Quite a turnaround & accomplishment for a team who's coach was on the hotseat in September, played in the same division as the #1-ranked in the preseason power rankings team, the Steelers whom they've swept, & who had it's top draft pick injured & got no help from him. Lewis is serious Coach ot Yr. material IMO.

Job
12-12-2009, 11:40 AM
That's how it has been for years now. Easy example: Panthers CBs toss around WRs in the playoffs on their way to super bowl, league gets super picky about contact. Your average NFL viewer doesn't want to see great defense, they want to see high scoring games that lack slow periods of play.

Yet the Ravens/Steelers games of the last years (this one excluded) must have been about the most phenomenal to watch thanks to the two great defenses going at it.

Job
12-12-2009, 11:42 AM
Lewis is serious Coach ot Yr. material IMO.

True, but both of those two undefeated teams will have to lose at least one game for him to be even considered.

Seamus2602
12-12-2009, 11:55 AM
YPG is a difficult statistic to look at. Trying to look at any statistic can be a difficult one for determining the Best Defense. If I was looking at Yards, though, I would look at Yards per Play rather than per Game. The Top 9 Ds according to Yards per Play are:-

1 - New York Jets - 4.5
2 - Green Bay Packers - 4.6
3 - Denver Broncos - 4.6
4 - Philadelphia Eagles - 4.7
5 - Pittsburgh Steelers - 4.9
6 - Cincinnati Bengals - 4.9
7 - Indianapolis Colts - 5
8 - Washington Redskins - 5.1
9 - Baltimore Ravens - 5.1

Not many surprises there.

Iamcanadian
12-12-2009, 12:37 PM
dude, the strawman is dead. stop beating it.

who, exactly, was arguing that a franchise qb isn't a key piece for ANY team in contention?



if anything, i'd look closer at this. defenses caught up with offenses for a few years. then the league decided that having indy and new england score 80 points a game was better for the game than having teams like the ravens shut everyone they played out. at some point, defenses will react and someone will come up with some new way to shut down the top offenses. the nfl will react, etc.

I quite agree that defenses will react and slowly catch up to offenses and possibly reach a point where they surpass offenses. The NFL has always been quite cyclic.

Boston
12-12-2009, 12:51 PM
They got older & slower, team youth & team speed are major factors that the Ravens seem to have overlooked recently. It happens to the best of them.



And that's without sackmaster Antwan Odom who's on IR after leading the league with 5 sacks. Quite a turnaround & accomplishment for a team who's coach was on the hotseat in September, played in the same division as the #1-ranked in the preseason power rankings team, the Steelers whom they've swept, & who had it's top draft pick injured & got no help from him. Lewis is serious Coach ot Yr. material IMO.

Did Odom even sack anybody not named Aaron Rodgers...?

LizardState
12-12-2009, 01:04 PM
True, but both of those two undefeated teams will have to lose at least one game for him to be even considered.

Sad but true, Job. I think undefeated teams in the NFL irritate more people than make their fans deliriously happy (the same ones who scream Dynasty! if their team wins > one SB), undefeated teams destroy those parity arguments in the NFL that the drafting order of Worst Drafts 1st is supposed to sustain.

coordinator0
12-12-2009, 01:18 PM
They got older & slower, team youth & team speed are major factors that the Ravens seem to have overlooked recently. It happens to the best of them.

Not sure where you got "slower" from. The guys that have been replaced (starters) from last years defense are:

Rolle (replaced with Foxworth)
Scott (replaced with Gooden/Ellerbe/McClain)
Leonhard (replaced with Landry)
Bannan (he started due to Gregg's injury, and now Gregg is back)

If anything I would say we've gotten faster. Landry and Leonhard might be a lateral move in terms of speed, but the other three guys we're definitely slower than who they were replaced with. We also only have 3 guys over the age of 30 on defense who start (Lewis, Reed, and Gregg). It's not like we're an old team.

I hate making excuses for players (and ours have had more than their fair share of terrible plays this year), but it's looking like a lot of our defensive problems are coming from the scheme that is being used. We are in no way a 4-3 base team, yet Mattison insists on trying to rush four on most downs. Anybody that has seen us pla can tell you our pass-rush is absolutely terrible. This leads to coverage problems, etc.

FIRE GREG MATTISON!

LizardState
12-12-2009, 01:36 PM
RE: Ravens defense:

Not sure where you got "slower" from.

From the same sports reporters who said the Ravens defense was showing its age every yr for the last, oh, 2-3 seasons. Most players slow down as they get older, that's generally true (sarcasm/facepalm), especially on defense where players have to make lightning-sharp cuts in coverage while running backwards.

I admit I havent seen the Ravens much this yr, but Johnson, Suggs, & Ray Lewis are still there aren't they? And Fabian Washington is as old as Asomugha with whom he played in Oakland. I do know about Jarret Johnson however, b/c I follow former Alabama players in the NFL, he's changed positions to an OLB & he is, per last weekend's highlight films, tearing it up bigtime at his new position, he was a DT in college & played DE for awhile in B-more, so IDK about your criticizing their personnel as unfit for their defensive scheme. Maybe b/c Suggs' sack total has diminished since his awesome rookie yr, well yeah, lol, he got older & slower.

Job
12-12-2009, 01:48 PM
The Ravens' problem is no more Rex Ryan.

msolimani
12-12-2009, 01:55 PM
RE: Ravens defense:
And Fabian Washington is as old as Asomugha with whom he played in Oakland.

Fabian Washington is probably the fastest player on that team. Might not be the best person to bring up when talking about a team "slowing" down. I agree with CoordinatorO the problem seems to be transitioning to Mattison and his scheme. The Ravens have been constantly losing players since the super bowl year so I think they are used to that, and Ozzie Newsome usually does a great job of reloading talent.

LizardState
12-12-2009, 01:58 PM
The Ravens' problem is no more Rex Ryan.

maybe true. And the Steelers missed Polamalu in major ways, not the same defense without him.

In the same division isn't it mind boggling to think the Bengals are the best (stats wise) defense in the NFL?

wicket
12-12-2009, 02:12 PM
Ill throw in the saints,
1st in interceptions
1st in defensive TD's

for the rest they still arent that good

/notserious

descendency
12-12-2009, 02:29 PM
Bengals, Broncos, and Jets are three of the top 5. Not sure who the other 2 are right off the top of my head though.

The Ravens' problem is no more Rex Ryan.
LMAO. The defense was elite before Sexy Rexy. Their problem is they are either old or untalented. The exceptions get targetted.

umphrey
12-12-2009, 05:43 PM
Since the start of the Dallas game, the Packers D has been flat out dominant and Woodson has been playing like the clear DPOY. Looking at the entire season I don't know who is the best, but GB has to be at least top 3. At this moment I'd take Green Bay over anybody though.

wicket
12-12-2009, 05:56 PM
Bengals, Broncos, and Jets are three of the top 5. Not sure who the other 2 are right off the top of my head though.


LMAO. The defense was elite before Sexy Rexy. Their problem is they are either old or untalented. The exceptions get targetted.

and sued for 70 million dollar

fenikz
12-12-2009, 05:58 PM
on a good day i think the cardinals are one of the best defenses in the nfl

A Perfect Score
12-12-2009, 06:01 PM
Bengals, Broncos, and Jets are three of the top 5. Not sure who the other 2 are right off the top of my head though.


LMAO. The defense was elite before Sexy Rexy. Their problem is they are either old or untalented. The exceptions get targetted.

This isnt true at all. Yes, the defense has aged, but alot of the players who were part of the old, dominant Ravens D are still playing at an extremely high level. Ray Lewis is playing as well as any Mike in the league, and Ed Reed has been exceptional when healthy. Just look at the latter part of last season.

Its the change in defensive coordinators that has caused a decline in the Ravens defense. Before Ryan, we had Mike Nolan, who ran a very similar scheme to Ryan. The 3-4 heavy blitz packages that we saw from those two are in stark contrast to the much more tame 4-3 look we are presenting these days. And quite frankly, our corners arent good enough to stick with top tier receivers when our front 4 cant get pressure.

Ravens1991
12-12-2009, 06:10 PM
Yes the Ravens D got a little older, but the issue is not one single player in our front freaking 7 is suited 4 this 43 bend dont break bull crap. They can get by off talent alone but if we had Rexys style D you could make a case the D would have been better then last year(its all speculation but w/ the addition of gregg, Johnson improving and our corner backs improving as well)

katnip
12-13-2009, 10:32 PM
I woulda said Cincy if they held down the Vikings. But I got to go with my Jets.

Woody56
12-15-2009, 06:09 PM
dont see how it can be anybody but the jets. 1st in yards and points allowed.

tjsunstein
12-15-2009, 07:08 PM
dont see how it can be anybody but the jets. 1st in yards and points allowed.

Green Bay is #2 in YPG.
#3 in passing YPG.
#2 in rushing YPG.
29 Sacks.
3 Def TD.
23 Int.

New York is #1 in YPG.
#1 in passing YPG.
#11 in rushing YPG.
27 Sacks.
1 Def TD.
15 Int.

I can see how someone can go with anybody but the Jets.

derza222
12-15-2009, 07:26 PM
Green Bay is #2 in YPG.
#3 in passing YPG.
#2 in rushing YPG.
29 Sacks.
3 Def TD.
23 Int.

New York is #1 in YPG.
#1 in passing YPG.
#11 in rushing YPG.
27 Sacks.
1 Def TD.
15 Int.

I can see how someone can go with anybody but the Jets.

Valid point, the Packers are also 9th in scoring though which you left out.

The Jets defense has only allowed 16 touchdowns this year, next best is 19, and the Packers have allowed 28. Special teams and offense have accounted for 7 of the touchdowns the Jets have allowed this year, almost 1/3. The Packers have also allowed only 9 field goals this season, a sign that when teams get in close they tend to buckle and allow the TD. The Jets have allowed 17, more than teams have scored touchdowns against them.

I can see where you are coming from, but you really can't deny that the Jets are getting it done. First in total yards and PPG, and less of those points are because of the defense than the Packers. It's always going to be up for discussion because there are so many variables, but statistically the Jets have been tremendous, and that's without Jenkins for a few weeks now.

LonghornsLegend
12-15-2009, 07:47 PM
Valid point, the Packers are also 9th in scoring though which you left out.

The Jets defense has only allowed 16 touchdowns this year, next best is 19, and the Packers have allowed 28. Special teams and offense have accounted for 7 of the touchdowns the Jets have allowed this year, almost 1/3. The Packers have also allowed only 9 field goals this season, a sign that when teams get in close they tend to buckle and allow the TD. The Jets have allowed 17, more than teams have scored touchdowns against them.

I can see where you are coming from, but you really can't deny that the Jets are getting it done. First in total yards and PPG, and less of those points are because of the defense than the Packers. It's always going to be up for discussion because there are so many variables, but statistically the Jets have been tremendous, and that's without Jenkins for a few weeks now.


And I don't think it's a stretch to say he was their most important defender this year either. They would be at least twice as good with him in the middle.

TitleTown088
12-15-2009, 08:07 PM
Valid point, the Packers are also 9th in scoring though which you left out.



That true. But special teams has really hurt the Packer defense in that department. Not that it hasn't for other teams.



What does it say about Dom Capers that he has a team in their first year of a 3-4 ebeing considered one of the best in the league? The man is a great. Then again, he does have Charles Woodson.

cvv84
12-15-2009, 08:15 PM
That true. But special teams has really hurt the Packer defense in that department. Not that it hasn't for other teams.



What does it say about Dom Capers that he has a team in their first year of a 3-4 ebeing considered one of the best in the league? The man is a great. Then again, he does have Charles Woodson.

1st year with guys who've never played in the 3-4 before. Not too mention that Raji hasn't even really played alot and Matthews didn't start til week 4. I couldn't be happier with the progress of the defense, reguardless of having the 'top defense' ranking or not.

derza222
12-15-2009, 10:44 PM
And I don't think it's a stretch to say he was their most important defender this year either. They would be at least twice as good with him in the middle.

I think Revis has been. Just the ability to know that you can blitz and go nuts without worrying about coverage issues...I would have said Jenks before he went down but they've been so good without him I think it would hurt to lose Revis more. Your point is well taken though, because I thought taking away Jenks was going to kill this defense when he got hurt and he is an incredibly important player. But the way they've played without him, I think it may be Revis.

Titletown, are you referring to field position struggles? I could have looked at the wrong stats if they have given up lots of return TD's, but it looked like they had only given up one non-defensive TD and like 20 passing TD's. Absolutely a great season for a team in transition though. The Jets are doing well transitioning also, though obviously the schemes are closer than what the Pack are doing. They're in nice shape for the future.

wogitalia
12-16-2009, 02:41 AM
Vikes have been very solid again, though the Winfield injury had us depleted for a while.

Our biggest problem statistically would probably be how effective the offense has been. Both Packers games we gave up a lot of yards as they threw trying to come back. Our 2 losses were as much on the offense as the defense, though they were not particularly impressive against the Cards.

Still, I said I felt the Packers would probably have the best defense in the division at the start of the year and I still feel that way, even though two key reasons for that thought are out(Harris and Kampman). Woodson has just been superhuman.

Also worth noting, the top teams this year defensively all have at least one elite CB(Jets, Packers, Bengals and Broncos). The teams that were elite last year that have fallen off have had secondary injuries and losses(Vikes, Philly, Pittsburgh and Ravens). I continue to believe that the secondary is the most important element to a consistently good defense as it allows you to blitz to cover up for a weakness elsewhere, you just can't consistently get the kind of pressure required from just 4 players to make up for a weak secondary. See the Vikes v Cards game and the Vikings almost certainly have the best front four in the league.

vikes_28
12-16-2009, 02:51 AM
huh? :confused:

Champ Bailey was elite two years ago.

CashmoneyDrew
12-16-2009, 03:04 AM
Champ Bailey was elite two years ago.

He was obviously talking about Andre Goodman. Duh!

;)

Gay Ork Wang
12-16-2009, 04:38 AM
my bad. i realize now he meant teh ortonz. you literally can't throw against the neckbeard when he gets the jack in him.
I have a stat for you:

Orton:
Pass completion: 0%
Passes at Orton: 0
TDs allowed: 0
Passes allowed: 0

BADASS

tjsunstein
12-16-2009, 09:19 AM
Valid point, the Packers are also 9th in scoring though which you left out.

The Jets defense has only allowed 16 touchdowns this year, next best is 19, and the Packers have allowed 28. Special teams and offense have accounted for 7 of the touchdowns the Jets have allowed this year, almost 1/3. The Packers have also allowed only 9 field goals this season, a sign that when teams get in close they tend to buckle and allow the TD. The Jets have allowed 17, more than teams have scored touchdowns against them.

I can see where you are coming from, but you really can't deny that the Jets are getting it done. First in total yards and PPG, and less of those points are because of the defense than the Packers. It's always going to be up for discussion because there are so many variables, but statistically the Jets have been tremendous, and that's without Jenkins for a few weeks now.

Too true. I'm not arguing that they're the best but the Jets aren't the far and away favorite as best defense. I can see how someone can opt for Green Bay. You lose Jenkins, we lose Kampman and Al Harris.

You make some valid points in favor of the Jets but I feel like my homer glasses are in the way here of accepting the fact that they're statistically better. If I had to choose between the defenses for a game right now, give me Green Bay. They've been playing as the best since the Dallas game. I wish there were some way to sort what defense has been the best since a certain week. My money would be on Green Bay since Week 10.

wogitalia
12-16-2009, 09:21 AM
Champ Bailey was elite two years ago.

He is still pretty damn good. Would still be in the top 10, possibly top 5 corners in the league and whilst he isn't what he used to be, that is still a hell of a corner.

tjsunstein
12-16-2009, 09:43 AM
If you think the Bengals have an 'elite' corner than I'm going to go ahead and say you use the term 'elite' too loosely. To me, there are 3 elite corners in the league right now. None on the Bengals though they have a very good pairing.

derza222
12-16-2009, 02:17 PM
Too true. I'm not arguing that they're the best but the Jets aren't the far and away favorite as best defense. I can see how someone can opt for Green Bay. You lose Jenkins, we lose Kampman and Al Harris.

You make some valid points in favor of the Jets but I feel like my homer glasses are in the way here of accepting the fact that they're statistically better. If I had to choose between the defenses for a game right now, give me Green Bay. They've been playing as the best since the Dallas game. I wish there were some way to sort what defense has been the best since a certain week. My money would be on Green Bay since Week 10.

You can't go wrong with either defense really. Both have played very well. I'm not sure I was saying the Jets are better or worse, just presenting some evidence that they have had a damn good defense this year, which I think we have.

All of this discussion though, means to me that while there are obviously homers like myself, there is no dominant defense this year. There have been a few defenses that have played very well, but no team that really strikes fear in opponents and will just outright dominate the opposition. But there are a lot of great defenses to choose from, the Packers and Jets among them. Love what the Bengals have put together too over the years, and the Broncos' shift from last season to this season has been tremendous as well.

CC.SD
12-16-2009, 02:36 PM
I am going to be watching Jonathan Joseph very closely on Sunday, to me he has the whole package (except hands. nearly the whole package) as a corner and in the next few years will cross that line into ridiculous eliteness.

PalmerToCJ
12-16-2009, 08:45 PM
I am going to be watching Jonathan Joseph very closely on Sunday, to me he has the whole package (except hands. nearly the whole package) as a corner and in the next few years will cross that line into ridiculous eliteness.

I go back and forth on him and Hall on which is better. Joseph is an elite type cover corner but Hall makes more plays. They make our pass rush happen, both can be left alone with no issues. Both of them and Peko are what makes this defense happen.

Both Hall and Joseph are tied for second in pass deflections behind Revis. They also have 5 INT's a piece, they're amazing lol.

wogitalia
12-16-2009, 11:22 PM
If you think the Bengals have an 'elite' corner than I'm going to go ahead and say you use the term 'elite' too loosely. To me, there are 3 elite corners in the league right now. None on the Bengals though they have a very good pairing.

For me elite would entail that you are probably in the top 10 corners. There is certainly a separation right now between Aso, Revis and Woodson from the rest, but both Hall and Joseph are probably in the top 10 which is good enough for elite for me. Elite means the best group, a fair bit better than the average. Given each team these days effectively has 3 corners who will see serious time, thats 96 guys, if you are in the top 10 then in my book thats enough to be elite.

I did not say they had the leagues top corner, I used elite for that reason, though both Hall and Joseph are on that second tier behind the top 3.

Boston
12-17-2009, 12:39 AM
For me elite would entail that you are probably in the top 10 corners. There is certainly a separation right now between Aso, Revis and Woodson from the rest, but both Hall and Joseph are probably in the top 10 which is good enough for elite for me. Elite means the best group, a fair bit better than the average. Given each team these days effectively has 3 corners who will see serious time, thats 96 guys, if you are in the top 10 then in my book thats enough to be elite.

I did not say they had the leagues top corner, I used elite for that reason, though both Hall and Joseph are on that second tier behind the top 3.

No, elite is the top 3-5 corners in the game. Actually, in all honesty, there's no set amount of players in that can be considered 'elite' at any point in time, but there's no way there's no way there's 10 elite corners in the game.

MichaelJordanEberle (sabf)
12-17-2009, 10:39 AM
my bad. i realize now he meant teh ortonz. you literally can't throw against the neckbeard when he gets the jack in him.

2/3rds of the world is covered by water. The rest is covered by Orton's neckbeard.

tjsunstein
12-17-2009, 04:43 PM
For me elite would entail that you are probably in the top 10 corners. There is certainly a separation right now between Aso, Revis and Woodson from the rest, but both Hall and Joseph are probably in the top 10 which is good enough for elite for me. Elite means the best group, a fair bit better than the average. Given each team these days effectively has 3 corners who will see serious time, thats 96 guys, if you are in the top 10 then in my book thats enough to be elite.

I did not say they had the leagues top corner, I used elite for that reason, though both Hall and Joseph are on that second tier behind the top 3.

No big deal. Guess we have different understandings of the word elite. Elite, right now, describes guys like Woodson, Revis, and Asomugha to me. The tier below them, I consider very very good. Elite is a strong word.

Splat
12-17-2009, 04:51 PM
2/3rds of the world is covered by water. The rest is covered by Orton's neckbeard.

It takes 2/3rds of the worlds water to wash that beard.

msolimani
12-17-2009, 06:59 PM
As great as the Packers D has played at times this year, I don't think they are #1 for the sole reason of who they've done it against. They've played the Bears twice, Rams, Browns, Lions twice, and the Buccs. They also, gave up 38 to those Buccs in a loss, the same team the Jets just held first down less over an entire half.

I know that those are the teams they were given to play so there's not much they can do, but 6 of their 9 wins have come from those lowly opponents. Against the current playoff teams such as the Bengals, Vikings (twice), and the Cowboys they gave up an average of 26.5 points and had a 1-3 record(3 of those were home games).

I would rather take the Bengals, Jets, or Broncos over the Packers D. Not that they aren't good, but I don't think they are #1.

killxswitch
12-18-2009, 09:37 AM
It takes 2/3rds of the worlds water to wash that beard.

You're assuming he even washes it.

MichaelJordanEberle (sabf)
12-18-2009, 11:15 AM
Inside Kyle Orton's unwashed beard, you can find enough food crumbs to feed all of Africa... and enough Jack Daniel's to give them all cirrhosis.

2 Live Crew
12-18-2009, 11:22 AM
If I had to pick one Defense to play with so far this year...I'd probably take the Vikings right now. I didn't look at any stats to back that up but I like the way they play.

tjsunstein
12-18-2009, 05:35 PM
As great as the Packers D has played at times this year, I don't think they are #1 for the sole reason of who they've done it against. They've played the Bears twice, Rams, Browns, Lions twice, and the Buccs. They also, gave up 38 to those Buccs in a loss, the same team the Jets just held first down less over an entire half.

I know that those are the teams they were given to play so there's not much they can do, but 6 of their 9 wins have come from those lowly opponents. Against the current playoff teams such as the Bengals, Vikings (twice), and the Cowboys they gave up an average of 26.5 points and had a 1-3 record(3 of those were home games).

I would rather take the Bengals, Jets, or Broncos over the Packers D. Not that they aren't good, but I don't think they are #1.
Like you said, there isn't much we can do about our schedule so even bringing it up is an attempt to use it against us. This isn't college football where we get to pick our out of conference schedule and have cake walks. These teams are set to match up years in advance.

And if we're looking at these two teams against playoff teams then lets. The Jets just so happen to be less impressive against potential playoff teams this year, may be that they've faced more being the wild card situation in the AFC but so be it. They come away with a 1-5 record and give up 24.8 points per game including only 9 to the Patriots in Week 2. This also includes a 3 game losing streak (2 at home) sandwhiched in between wins against the Raiders, Bills (whom they did lose to at home), Panthers, and Bucs. It'd be tough to find a weaker stretch of games aside from the Packers but that's neither here nor there. During that three game losing streak, opponents scored 28.3 against the Jets. Those three games happened to be against Jacksonville, Miami (whom the Jets are 0-2 against this year and allowed 30.5 ppg), and New England. All in the race for a playoff spot.

If I had to pick one Defense to play with so far this year...I'd probably take the Vikings right now. I didn't look at any stats to back that up but I like the way they play.

Cool story, brah.

wogitalia
12-21-2009, 09:57 AM
No big deal. Guess we have different understandings of the word elite. Elite, right now, describes guys like Woodson, Revis, and Asomugha to me. The tier below them, I consider very very good. Elite is a strong word.

That is probably fair enough, though I think that Joseph is very, very close to those guys. With that distinction made, it is still a very common trend that the top defenses have "elite to very, very good corners" and the two defenses that have fallen the most notably from last year have both had injuries and problems at CB(Vikes & Steelers).

It just seems that with the rule changes the league has made to protect the QB and limit coverage that it has made the elite/very, very good CBs and safeties even more valuable. You can't limit a QB with fear tactics anymore, basically if you don't get sacks you pretty much can't touch them so you have to cover like a mofo to limit and also to help get sacks. A look at the top defenses shows an elite safety, cb or both without fail. The only team in the top 10 in points allowed that doesn't have either is the Colts and their offense is sort of a special factor in ppg defense stats.