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DoWnThEfiElD
12-16-2009, 11:08 AM
There has been significant talk about how good of a deal this could potentially be for the Lions. What does everyone here think?

I feel if we could get a couple good picks for him then lets do it. By the time this team comes around he will want to be the highest paid WR in the league. I know he stretches the defense and has a lot of value, I just think for the right price there could be a great deal for the Lions somewhere out there.

P-L
12-16-2009, 11:15 AM
I wouldn't deem him untouchable, but I don't think any team would be willing to pay what I'd want for him. Something like this year's 1st, 3rd, and 5th plus next year's 1st would get my attention.

DoWnThEfiElD
12-16-2009, 11:59 AM
A team like Baltimore could be interested in a deal like that.

detknowitall
12-16-2009, 01:00 PM
1st, 2nd, 3rd this year and 1st, and 3rd next year plus a player would be a good starting point. Anything less than that, I would deem him untouchable. Except maybe trading for Drew Brees and Colston. Or Philip Rivers and the entire secondary from the Chargers.

brat316
12-16-2009, 01:05 PM
AHHAAHH det now it all, hahahaha. I know Calvin is good but come on.

Probably more realistic is P-L's trade and that could happen, 1,3,5 not to much for CJ, and asking for the extra first is reasonable. Though they might want another player then maybe Sims.

Most likely case would be 1, 4, 1....somewhere around there. Its gonna be at least 2 first round picks.

detknowitall
12-16-2009, 01:06 PM
AHHAAHH det now it all, hahahaha. I know Calvin is good but come on.

Probably more realistic is P-L's trade and that could happen, 1,3,5 not to much for CJ, and asking for the extra first is reasonable. Though they might want another player then maybe Sims.

Most likely case would be 1, 4, 1.

Point being i wouldnt trade him on any fair deal it would have to be something rediculous along the lines of the saints trading their entire draft for Ricky Williams.

AntoinCD
12-16-2009, 01:08 PM
Id take him on New England for this years first, oaklands first next year and a 4th

Don Vito
12-16-2009, 01:19 PM
Id take him on New England for this years first, oaklands first next year and a 4th

I'd be willing to give up a lot to get Calvin. Moss is getting up there but he still has some good years left, giving Brady Calvin/Moss/Welker would be amazing. We have some big holes though and I doubt we make a move where we would have to give up that much.

Gay Ork Wang
12-16-2009, 01:21 PM
Point being i wouldnt trade him on any fair deal it would have to be something rediculous along the lines of the saints trading their entire draft for Ricky Williams.
we will trade you our entire draft this year!

gpngc
12-16-2009, 01:23 PM
There has been significant talk about how good of a deal this could potentially be for the Lions. What does everyone here think?

I feel if we could get a couple good picks for him then lets do it. By the time this team comes around he will want to be the highest paid WR in the league. I know he stretches the defense and has a lot of value, I just think for the right price there could be a great deal for the Lions somewhere out there.

Where? Local radio? I'm curious.

I think it's next to impossible that it actually happens because you don't have any other threats on the outside and just drafted a strong-armed QB to grow with him...

Prowler
12-16-2009, 01:30 PM
i have no problem trading him. the picks we get would form the core of our team. that is more of an impact for us than simply having one guy who is getting killed every week by defenses. i can't remember the last time he was fully healthy.

WMD
12-16-2009, 01:36 PM
I haven't read the thread yet.. but I was gonna make this same exact thread earlier in the AM hours.

detknowitall
12-16-2009, 01:37 PM
we will trade you our entire draft this year!

Your draft is wearing #6 and just threw another pick.

WMD
12-16-2009, 01:46 PM
I would trade Calvin.. We got a 1 and 3 for Roy Williams basically.. Calvin is younger, taller, faster.. basically better all around. And he isn't a diva. I know we ripped Dallas off in the trade but that should be a starting point.

We would have no weapons in the offense though, so that'd suck. We could build up the Defense and OL with what we got for Calvin, but that slows Stafford's progress.

AntoinCD
12-16-2009, 01:57 PM
I would trade Calvin.. We got a 1 and 3 for Roy Williams basically.. Calvin is younger, taller, faster.. basically better all around. And he isn't a diva. I know we ripped Dallas off in the trade but that should be a starting point.

We would have no weapons in the offense though, so that'd suck. We could build up the Defense and OL with what we got for Calvin, but that slows Stafford's progress.

It would be ok though. The Pats will trade for him and you can draft Gerald McCoy and Jason Fox in the 1st this year then take Julio Jones next year with Oakland's pick. Everyone's happy...except Al Davis

RaiderNation
12-16-2009, 02:00 PM
Id love to have Calvin on this team(should already have been but we dicided to take Russell :( ). Id say his value would be around a 1st and 4th this year and 2nd next year

P-L
12-16-2009, 02:05 PM
Id love to have Calvin on this team(should already have been but we dicided to take Russell :( ). Id say his value would be around a 1st and 4th this year and 2nd next year
I wouldn't trade him if that was the best offer. That is barely better than what we got for Roy Williams. If the team isn't going to start the offer with two 1st round picks than they shouldn't bother calling.

DoWnThEfiElD
12-16-2009, 02:23 PM
Where? Local radio? I'm curious.

I think it's next to impossible that it actually happens because you don't have any other threats on the outside and just drafted a strong-armed QB to grow with him...

It's been something to talk about on local radio, plus there was an article about it on the Free Press web site today

WMD
12-16-2009, 02:23 PM
What if St. Louis/Tampa offered the #1 Overall for him straight up?

We could go out of the draft with Suh and Berry/Okung.

Fred Savage
12-16-2009, 02:26 PM
I hope something like this goes down. It is the only way this team can become competitive quickly. Calvin is a great player but the Lidowns can fill so many holes and build an entire defense with a trade like this.

DoWnThEfiElD
12-16-2009, 02:40 PM
It would need to be a Herschel Walker type deal, or close to. Look what that did for the Cowboys, it could be franchise changing.

Maybe Next Year Millen2
12-16-2009, 02:44 PM
**** trading Calvin Johnson. It just creates another huge hole for this team and would hinder Stafford who has shown signs but isn't a QB that can just do whatever he wants with no receivers yet. Maybe in 4 years like Brees became but that is even asking alot. Besides the 5 rookie starters and Foote/Peterson, he's the lone talent we have now. The last 2 times Detroit traded talent we got nothing in return and it crippled us. Of course it was for washed players as Millen got fleeced with Bell/Foster and a 3rd/Bodden. Two 1sts are far from gurantees though even with Mayhew's 2009 success, Calvin is a gurantee for 3 more seasons. Lions should just continue to build through the draft and by 2011 do everything possible to resign Calvin. Offseason 2012(maybe 2013 depending on his contract) is when we would have to franchise him. Its not like we would let him walk out the door without a franchise tag(which would be 2012 season).

Roy was a different story to let go, 1) we had Calvin and 2) he was at the end of his contract and wanted to go to Texas no matter what and the rebuilding was just beginning with Roy. And we still haven't replaced Roy. Pettigrew had a decent rookie year and does other things in the blocking department but Pettigrew/Derrick Williams/Bryant Johnson/Northcutt haven't replaced Roy. Calvin is under contract for 2 years maybe 3 I need to check which would be awesome. Towards the end of Calvins contract we could be better if Mayhew keeps having successful drafts, then he would want to resign here. We don't have a 2005 1st rounder or 2006 1st rounder to resign with Mike Williams and Sims so we'll have money for Calvin. Heck we don't have 2002,2003 or 2004 1st rounder to resign either. Stafford,Calvin and Julian Peterson(all salary) and 2010 1st rounder will be our only expensive players.

detknowitall
12-16-2009, 02:59 PM
What if St. Louis/Tampa offered the #1 Overall for him straight up?

We could go out of the draft with Suh and Berry/Okung.

Um the word NO comes to mind.

tblain1
12-16-2009, 03:55 PM
What if St. Louis/Tampa offered the #1 Overall for him straight up?

We could go out of the draft with Suh and Berry/Okung.

That thought of that combo does incite a party in my pants (invitations in the mail), but then our offense becomes the Bears offense: Gun-slinger QB, with so-so running game, and WRs that make Devin Hester look like a #1.

We are essentially the Bears offense right now, plus an all-star reciever. Someone brought up the plugging one hole by making a new one. I would agree, but I would like to solve the DT issue more than have a wideout who sometimes only gets 1 reception per game.

I dunno; I'm torn. I'm a trenches guy, but our QB-> WR combo of the future is gone if we do this.
What Would Matt Millen Do?

P-L
12-16-2009, 04:01 PM
What if St. Louis/Tampa offered the #1 Overall for him straight up?

We could go out of the draft with Suh and Berry/Okung.
No. Absolutely not. The financial commitment would be absurd. We'd have to pay Suh $40 million guaranteed and Berry/Okung $25-$30 million guaranteed. If the cap stays, then we are still on the hook for Calvin's signing bonus.

Crickett
12-16-2009, 04:02 PM
As a Jets fan, for someone like Calvin, if it were up to me, I'd offer a 1st, 2nd, future first, Rhodes and either Cotchery or Keller. Probably Cotchery since you guys just drafted a TE in the first round.

Prowler
12-16-2009, 04:32 PM
i would prefer the idea of picking up draft picks for next year's draft since that might be a rookie salary cap'd year. we could save 40 million dollars.

DoWnThEfiElD
12-16-2009, 04:36 PM
As a Jets fan, for someone like Calvin, if it were up to me, I'd offer a 1st, 2nd, future first, Rhodes and either Cotchery or Keller. Probably Cotchery since you guys just drafted a TE in the first round.

I would do that in a second. That would be trading 5 starters for Calvin. That is a deal that could help the Lions for sure.

I just think there is way more value in extra 1st and 2nd round picks for the Lions right now than Calvin. Also this would help Calvin out by going somewhere where his talents could be better utilized in helping a fringe playoff team reach that upper echelon.

noondog
12-16-2009, 05:33 PM
As a Jets fan, for someone like Calvin, if it were up to me, I'd offer a 1st, 2nd, future first, Rhodes and either Cotchery or Keller. Probably Cotchery since you guys just drafted a TE in the first round.

I would do that in a heartbeat as well, obviously with Cotchery and not Keller.

I think that our best trading partners would probably come from the NFC East...here are some thoughts:

From Philly: Maclin, '09 1st, '09 2nd, '10 1st
From NYG: Steve Smith, Kiwanuka, '09 1st, '09 2nd
From Wash: Orakpo, '09 1st, '09 3rd ('09 4th goes back to Wash too)
From Dal: Barber, '09 1st, '09 2nd, '10 1st

Scotty D
12-16-2009, 06:33 PM
I'd rather have him for ten years and not worry about finding another #1.

EdReedUnstoppable
12-16-2009, 07:22 PM
How about Our 1st, 3rd this year our 2nd and 4th next year and Suggs?

Calvin & Kevin
12-16-2009, 07:38 PM
No one is untouchable. If someone came with the right deal, then yes you have to do it.

The absolute floor would be something that beats the Roy Williams deal, and you can go up from there. Three picks at least.

umphrey
12-16-2009, 07:44 PM
You would be fools to even consider this. He is the definition of elite. He can make an offense go by himself. Not to mention you'd be leaving Stafford pretty lonely.

P-L
12-16-2009, 08:14 PM
You would be fools to even consider this. He is the definition of elite. He can make an offense go by himself. Not to mention you'd be leaving Stafford pretty lonely.
Yeah, but if a team offered us a package of four or five picks you'd have to take it. If you can draft a receiver who is half as good as Calvin and fill three or four other needs, why is that foolish? No one is suggesting that we just give him away, just that you listen if someone is going to try and overwhelm you.

The Lions aren't going to be competing for the NFC North next year and probably not the season after that. By the time the Lions are a competitive team, Calvin will be in the final year of his contract and will be looking for not only big money, but a chance at a Super Bowl ring.

SINCE1978
12-16-2009, 08:20 PM
It was suggested this evening on FM sports talk radio to trade megatron to a team "on the cusp of contention" for their #1 & #2 this year & #3 in 2011. (approx the #15 pick was the example, using McShay's mock draft) our picks looked like this per the shock jocks quick analysis:

1a (#4) Derrick Morgan DE Ga Tech
1b (#15) Taylor Mays S USC
2a (#36) Terrence Cody NT Bama
2b (#47) Brandon Graham DE U of M
3 (#68) Toby Gerhart RB Stanford

The arguments were 1) Calvin will require almost an 80 million dollar contract come 2011. 2) Teams do not build around WR's that only get 5 touches a game (plenty of starters around the league found in rd 4-6) 3) it would allow us to get young defensive talent quickly, building around our nucleus of Delmas, Hill & Levy & 4) the last 10 Super Bowl champions have had a top 10 defense, trust the new mgt to build on that side of the ball.

Scotty D
12-16-2009, 08:22 PM
We haven't even seen Calvin reach his full potential yet. He hasn't had an offensive line or running game since we've drafted him, and you can debate the quarterback play. His stats are still waiting to explode.

LonghornsLegend
12-16-2009, 08:24 PM
I agree with P-L, it has to start with 2 1st at minimum, and some extra mid round picks with a solid player. It could be franchise changing, but at the same time think about how devastating that would be if you ended up blowing most of the picks you got in return. It's a possibility.


I'd probably want to keep him, but if you shopped him someone would overpay, and it would definately have to be a Ricky Williams type trade. I can see alot of owners being greedy and over paying which could really turn the franchise around if you make the most of those picks.


It's risky because he's probably the most talented WR in the league, I'd rather just rebuild with what you have because him and Stafford could be really great together.

diesel
12-16-2009, 08:25 PM
Cowboys will trade Roy Willie straight up. That's the Lions WR we MEANT to get :/.

superman8456
12-16-2009, 08:25 PM
You're not going to get a good player, two 1sts, and a 2nd for CJ.

I think a 1st, 2nd, 5th, and next years 2nd would be a lot to give up. Its not like he is a franchise QB like Cutler. Just my opinion though, Im not a GM.

Also, look how much Jason Peters went for. He is a franchise LT.

Scotty D
12-16-2009, 08:27 PM
You're not going to get a good player, two 1sts, and a 2nd for CJ.

I think a 1st, 2nd, 5th, and next years 2nd would be a lot to give up. Its not like he is a franchise QB like Cutler. Just my opinion though, Im not a GM.

Also, look how much Jason Peters went for. He is a franchise LT.

Jason Peters was playing like crap and coming off an injury.

LonghornsLegend
12-16-2009, 08:29 PM
You're not going to get a good player, two 1sts, and a 2nd for CJ.

And you know this because?


Don't under estimate what an impulse owner will do with guys like Daniel Snyder around. He was willing to give up 2 1st for Chad and he was over 30 years old. You mean to tell me someone wouldn't give up a solid player and another 2nd? I don't think it's all that hard to fathom.

superman8456
12-16-2009, 08:35 PM
Jason Peter's was playing like crap and coming off an injury.

Alright, but 1st and 4th with conditional 6th for a Pro-Bowl franchise LT.

Calvin Johnson is an extremely talented player, but he is a WR. Two 1st rounders is a huge pricetag. Depending on who you ask it may or may not be worth it.

Personally, I dont think any NFL team would be willing to trade two 1st rounders for a WR. Only team that I can think of even coming close to doing that is the Jets, and they have bigger needs elsewhere.

Not to mention that Julio Jones, AJ Green, Danario Alexander, Michael Floyd, etc, etc are all going to be in the upcoming drafts.

Scotty D
12-16-2009, 08:37 PM
Alright, but 1st and 4th with conditional 6th for a Pro-Bowl franchise LT.

Calvin Johnson is an extremely talented player, but he is a WR. Two 1st rounders is a huge pricetag. Depending on who you ask it may or may not be worth it.

Personally, I dont think any NFL team would be willing to trade two 1st rounders for a WR. Only team that I can think of even coming close to doing that is the Jets, and they have bigger needs elsewhere.

Not to mention that Julio Jones, AJ Green, Danario Alexander, Michael Floyd, etc, etc are all going to be in the upcoming drafts.

You are ignoring the fact that Calvin is a FREAK OF NATURE

Crickett
12-16-2009, 08:37 PM
You're not going to get a good player, two 1sts, and a 2nd for CJ.


For someone like Calvin Johnson or Larry Fitzgerald (if it were economically feasible for the Cardinals) or Andre Johnson if he were a year or two younger, I'd give that up gladly.

Everything you want in a WR and unlike guys such as Terrell Owens or Randy Moss, nothing you don't.

And I'll take that one step further. I'm a Jets fan, but if I were a fan of any team except perhaps the Saints, Patriots, Packers, Vikings, Colts or Cardinals, I'd want my team to do that.

SINCE1978
12-16-2009, 08:40 PM
I agree with P-L, it has to start with 2 1st at minimum, and some extra mid round picks with a solid player. It could be franchise changing, but at the same time think about how devastating that would be if you ended up blowing most of the picks you got in return. It's a possibility.


I'd probably want to keep him, but if you shopped him someone would overpay, and it would definately have to be a Ricky Williams type trade. I can see alot of owners being greedy and over paying which could really turn the franchise around if you make the most of those picks.


It's risky because he's probably the most talented WR in the league, I'd rather just rebuild with what you have because him and Stafford could be really great together.

I am a die hard Lions fan ... love me some CJ too ... but come on, he is arguably not even the most talented Johnson receiver in the league! ;o) Andre in Houston would have something to say about that, Larry Fitzgerald as well.

Maybe CJ is due to bust out but he has had only 1 solid year statistically, last year and that was on an 0-16 team where plenty of those yds/TD's came in garbage minutes when behind 24-3 playing catch up. Without looking it up name me Andre Johnson #2 & #3 WR's in Houston? They get him the ball. He's productive. I'm just saying ...

Crickett
12-16-2009, 08:42 PM
I am a die hard Lions fan ... love me some CJ too ... but come on, he is arguably not even the most talented Johnson receiver in the league! ;o) Andre in Houston would have something to say about that, Larry Fitzgerald as well.

Maybe CJ is due to bust out but he has had only 1 solid year statistically, last year and that was on an 0-16 team where plenty of those yds/TD's came in garbage minutes when behind 24-3 playing catch up. Without looking it up name me Andre Johnson #2 & #3 WR's in Houston? They get him the ball. He's productive. I'm just saying ...

Kevin Walter and Andre Davis. I didn't look it up, did I get it right?

Edit: No, I was wrong. David Anderson is the #3. Walter's a decent #2 IMO though and Owen Daniels is a pro bowl TE.

vikes_28
12-16-2009, 08:45 PM
Come on people. This isn't madden. Calvin is worth a 1, 2, 3, picks this year, and that is all.

DoughBoy
12-16-2009, 08:45 PM
If I were the titans I would give

A first, Michael Griffin, a 6th and Eugene Amano.

Scotty D
12-16-2009, 08:55 PM
I am a die hard Lions fan ... love me some CJ too ... but come on, he is arguably not even the most talented Johnson receiver in the league! ;o) Andre in Houston would have something to say about that, Larry Fitzgerald as well.

Maybe CJ is due to bust out but he has had only 1 solid year statistically, last year and that was on an 0-16 team where plenty of those yds/TD's came in garbage minutes when behind 24-3 playing catch up. Without looking it up name me Andre Johnson #2 & #3 WR's in Houston? They get him the ball. He's productive. I'm just saying ...

I think teams this year just blanket Johnson, there is only so much he can do. Moss has Welker, Fitz has Boldin, I can list others, but are teams worried about Dennis Northcutt, Derrick Williams, Bryant Johnson, Will Heller? Those guys should not be starting for anyone. We have zero offensive weapons right now, Pettigrew was definitely showing a lot of promise but he got hurt. He had a 100+ day against Cincy (one of the better secondaries in the league), and his abilities are shown every once and a while. He's not done like Roy Williams was, I knew watching him leading up to that trade he was turning into garbage.

aNYtitan
12-16-2009, 08:58 PM
I don't see how he isn't as untouchable a player as there is. Young, dynamic and right behind Johnson and Fitzgerald as the best WR in the league. There is really no reason to even consider trading him because the value can never be equal. IMO it would be like the Titans deciding to trade Chris Johnson. The value can't ever be equal to what he is worth.

For people that are even thinking possibly about doing this, what are you on? That could be the Lions' mentality, cause you need great players to succeed, and they don't just come around like that.

P-L
12-16-2009, 09:02 PM
Come on people. This isn't madden. Calvin is worth a 1, 2, 3, picks this year, and that is all.
Jay Cutler fetched two 1st round picks, a 3rd round pick, and an above average starting quarterback. Cutler plays a much more important position, but Johnson is younger and a better overall player than Jay was at the time. Add into the fact that whatever team trade for Johnson won't have to give him an extension for a few more years and I don't see how you can say he's only worth a one, two, and three. You think the only difference in between Calvin Johnson and Roy Williams is a late 2nd/early 3rd value?

DoWnThEfiElD
12-16-2009, 09:05 PM
You would be fools to even consider this. He is the definition of elite. He can make an offense go by himself. Not to mention you'd be leaving Stafford pretty lonely.

Ya he is really making the offense go this year. If you watch Lions games he drops passes. I have not been enamored with his play this year. Yes that is partly due to the rest of the offense, but he certainly cannot "make it go" by himself.

I don't to trade him, but I feel it is best for the organization to accumulate draft picks. If we could get 4 or 5 starters out of the deal whether they come in the form of picks or young talent I would go for it.

P-L
12-16-2009, 09:08 PM
I don't see how he isn't as untouchable a player as there is. Young, dynamic and right behind Johnson and Fitzgerald as the best WR in the league. There is really no reason to even consider trading him because the value can never be equal. IMO it would be like the Titans deciding to trade Chris Johnson. The value can't ever be equal to what he is worth.

For people that are even thinking possibly about doing this, what are you on? That could be the Lions' mentality, cause you need great players to succeed, and they don't just come around like that.
Big difference between Chris Johnson and Calvin Johnson, considering the teams situations. The Titans are already competitive, the Lions are not. The Titans could be a Super Bowl team with three or four more pieces. The Lions could be 7-9 with three or four more pieces. By the time the Lions are competitive, Calvin's contract will be expiring and he'll be ready to move on for more money and a better team.

Nalej
12-16-2009, 09:12 PM
We got Randy Moss for a 4th rd pick... sooooo... We'll give you a 3rd 'cause he's younger :D

P-L
12-16-2009, 09:14 PM
Ya he is really making the offense go this year. If you watch Lions games he drops passes. I have not been enamored with his play this year. Yes that is partly due to the rest of the offense, but he certainly cannot "make it go" by himself.

I don't to trade him, but I feel it is best for the organization to accumulate draft picks. If we could get 4 or 5 starters out of the deal whether they come in the form of picks or young talent I would go for it.
It's like any wide receiver. No matter how great they are, you don't build a team around a receiver. If the Lions looked like they could make it to the playoffs in the next one or two years, then I'd say he's untouchable. However, like you said, if he can get us four or five potential starters than I say go for it.

aNYtitan
12-16-2009, 09:16 PM
Big difference between Chris Johnson and Calvin Johnson, considering the teams situations. The Titans are already competitive, the Lions are not. The Titans could be a Super Bowl team with three or four more pieces. The Lions could be 7-9 with three or four more pieces. By the time the Lions are competitive, Calvin's contract will be expiring and he'll be ready to move on for more money and a better team.

True, but how many more years does he still have on his contract? It ain't exactly ending right around this corner, and I'm absolutely positive that if it were down to the final year and no extension were signed, they would still be able to bring in a huge haul for him if thats what you are concerned about.

DoWnThEfiElD
12-16-2009, 09:28 PM
I think people do not understand how many acquisitions the Lions are away from fielding a team that could potentially be a wild-card. The Lions will not win a division anytime soon. In 2 or 3 years I hope to not be mathematically eliminated from the playoffs by week 13 or 14. Those are realistic hopes for this team in two years.

You can literally count on one hand how many players on this team could start on a playoff caliber team.

I think we could make an interesting trade with Baltimore or Cincinnati. I think they are probably feeling very close to being an elite team, and both could use a deep threat to play to their QBs strengths.

WMD
12-16-2009, 10:35 PM
Calvin has all the talent in the world.. But he has his fair share of drops, and he gets injured too damn much. Dare I say, he's a little overrated so far. A lot of that has to do with the Lions, though. The QB situation is just now getting fixed, we still have a poor OL and we haven't had a reliable running game in a decade. By the time we build a competent team, he'll be ready for his big extension.. We're wasting his best years.

No problem with not trading him, but I can understand why they would cash in.

LonghornsLegend
12-16-2009, 11:23 PM
I am a die hard Lions fan ... love me some CJ too ... but come on, he is arguably not even the most talented Johnson receiver in the league! ;o) Andre in Houston would have something to say about that, Larry Fitzgerald as well.

Maybe CJ is due to bust out but he has had only 1 solid year statistically, last year and that was on an 0-16 team where plenty of those yds/TD's came in garbage minutes when behind 24-3 playing catch up. Without looking it up name me Andre Johnson #2 & #3 WR's in Houston? They get him the ball. He's productive. I'm just saying ...


Most talented is way different then the best WR in the league. Also keep in mind AJ took awhile to blow up.


Everyone loves AJ now but it took him 6 years to reach a season above 1300 yards, you realize Calvin did that in year 2 with crap at QB and a terrible O-line? You pretty much just discredited that fact and gave most of the credit to playing behind and garbage time, so basically any #1 WR on a terrible team should be able to produce those numbers.



AJ also has never gotten double digit TD's before in his career, so that's 7 years in counting. Calvin did that in year 2 also. So while it's easy to say how much better AJ is then Calvin let's really put that into perspective.


You almost have to keep him if you don't get a great deal because you'd be giving a playoff team an elite WR and it would be scary to think what Calvin could do in a better situation. I'm with you guys on improving the team, but getting picks is no rocket science for turning around the team either, Dallas made almost all those picks count in the Herschel Walker trade to reap benefits, same for SD in the Eli deal, blow those picks and the trade blows up in your face too.



And on the subject of drops, Andre is STILL dropping easy passes to this day, that's always been an enigma of his. Even at his elite status he drops way too many passes, the same can't be said for Fitz but this happens weekly for AJ. It's scary to imagine how good Calvin could be in year 6, and yea he'd probably want an extension by the time your good but if you don't have that many good players I don't see how it be that hard to resign him anyway. It's not like you guys have even a DECENT #2 WR to take over, you'd have to rely on the new WR you took to pan out and thus taking away a primary weapon for Stafford and his development which is huge.

Scotty D
12-16-2009, 11:38 PM
I agree LL, thats why I would probably want a young promising player included in the deal.

I've been trying to think of trade proposals like that but all I could come up was with Arizona for Dockett. :/

Maybe Next Year Millen2
12-17-2009, 09:14 AM
We got Randy Moss for a 4th rd pick... sooooo... We'll give you a 3rd 'cause he's younger :D


**** that. That trade pisses me off everytime I think about it.

1) Al Davis **** you, you ******* moron
2) Randy Moss **** you for being lazy and forcing your way out of Oakland, man up and try to make the team better you ******* piece of ****. No I want to play for a winning team after collecting a huge paycheck from a losing team and then not playing hard. You didn't deserve to go to New England. **** that, make Oakland a proven team by dominating instead of being lazy. Everything wrong with NFL players work ethic is shown in this trade. You signed the contract in Oakland, play hard for Oakland. Just glad Moss hasn't won a SB.
3) Bellicheck/Pioloi can't be mad at them, sure I'll take Randy Moss for a 4th trying to hold in his laughter. Thank goodness for that actually happening because if not he would be in Green Bay and Jennings,Driver and Moss would be unstoppable. League should be able to veto that crap though but I guess its a fine line for that stuff and don't want the league messing in trades. Can't make the league idiot proof.
4) **** Millen for using 4 1st on WRs.

Prowler
12-17-2009, 09:44 AM
**** that. That trade pisses me off everytime I think about it.

1) Al Davis **** you, you ******* moron
2) Randy Moss **** you for being lazy and forcing your way out of Oakland, man up and try to make the team better you ******* piece of ****. No I want to play for a winning team after collecting a huge paycheck from a losing team and then not playing hard. You didn't deserve to go to New England. **** that, make Oakland a proven team by dominating instead of being lazy. Everything wrong with NFL players work ethic is shown in this trade. You signed the contract in Oakland, play hard for Oakland. Just glad Moss hasn't won a SB.
3) Bellicheck/Pioloi can't be mad at them, sure I'll take Randy Moss for a 4th trying to hold in his laughter. Thank goodness for that actually happening because if not he would be in Green Bay and Jennings,Driver and Moss would be unstoppable. League should be able to veto that crap though but I guess its a fine line for that stuff and don't want the league messing in trades. Can't make the league idiot proof.
4) **** Millen for using 4 1st on WRs.

agreed except move millen to 1 instead of 4 and add the ernie sims pick to the discussion.

umphrey
12-17-2009, 10:01 AM
Yeah, but if a team offered us a package of four or five picks you'd have to take it. If you can draft a receiver who is half as good as Calvin and fill three or four other needs, why is that foolish? No one is suggesting that we just give him away, just that you listen if someone is going to try and overwhelm you.

The Lions aren't going to be competing for the NFC North next year and probably not the season after that. By the time the Lions are a competitive team, Calvin will be in the final year of his contract and will be looking for not only big money, but a chance at a Super Bowl ring.

I understand your logic. I feel differently. IMO Calvin is a once a decade player, the type that if you get him on your team you pay him. If you don't, you should be mad at your ownership for being cheap. Go ahead, trade him for draft picks. I'm a Packer fan, I want him out of the division. Watch him turn into the best receiver in the NFL while half of the prospects you get fail to crack the starting lineup.

Besides, I know the attitude came from being a Lions fan for so many years, but you should be thinking "who do we have to get to help Calvin bring that Lombardi trophy to Detroit", not "who else will he sign with to try and get one". I know your team is bad right now, but you've got some good pieces in place. Turning around a team doesn't take as long as it used to. Atlanta did it in what, one year? And they had to replace their franchise quarterback.

Prowler
12-17-2009, 10:18 AM
to keep stafford at or above 55% completions we need a reliable underneath receiver. we need probably 2 starting guards. we could use a better left tackle. also on offense we now need another running back. not to mention kicker since hanson is old but that's more of a free agent thing. i also won't mention backup qb even though daunte is probably done with us and stanton isn't trusted even in garbage time of a blowout.

1. receiver
2. guard
3. guard
4. tackle
5. rb

on defense we need another DT to rotate/pair with sammie lee hill and grady. we could use 2 new DEs. i think we could use another linebacker to replace ernie since levy would probably replace foote and even if follett stepped up we'd still need depth. we need another safety to pair with delmas. schwartz treats each safety position as left or right and not free or strong so we'd need another versatile safety. we also need at minimum 1 more starting corner and probably another with the eye on eventually starting.

1. DT
2. DE
3. DE
4. LB
5. S
6. CB


we are not winning the super bowl anytime soon.

Brothgar
12-17-2009, 11:07 AM
Unless it is some Hershal Walker or Roy Williams style just rediculous deal I mean a starting point would be a full draft. Durring that draft Tampa offered a full draft for Calvin. But I think losing Calvin would be devistating for Staff's development. Also I want AJ Green next draft.

Addict
12-17-2009, 11:20 AM
yes, the key to rebuilding a team is trading away one of the few elite talents we DO have so that we can take another shot at the roulette table. Hey who knows, maybe with that 1st round draft pick Calvin Johnson will surely net us in a trade, we could draft one of the most talented guys in the draft class, you know, like we did a few years ago when we DRAFTED CALVIN JOHNSON.

Good god, maybe the Lions will stop losing for once if for a change we didn't trade away every ounce of talent still in Detroit. What's next? Trade stafford for even more picks? We'll get a first round pick for Matthew for sure!

DoWnThEfiElD
12-17-2009, 11:32 AM
yes, the key to rebuilding a team is trading away one of the few elite talents we DO have so that we can take another shot at the roulette table. Hey who knows, maybe with that 1st round draft pick Calvin Johnson will surely net us in a trade, we could draft one of the most talented guys in the draft class, you know, like we did a few years ago when we DRAFTED CALVIN JOHNSON.

Good god, maybe the Lions will stop losing for once if for a change we didn't trade away every ounce of talent still in Detroit. What's next? Trade stafford for even more picks? We'll get a first round pick for Matthew for sure!

Ok, well that is taking the logic of the trade to the extreme.

Addict
12-17-2009, 11:34 AM
Ok, well that is taking the logic of the trade to the extreme.

what logic? you're telling me there's logic involved here? Where the hell is it then?

DoWnThEfiElD
12-17-2009, 11:41 AM
Trading Calvin for 3-5 starters on a team in desperate need of talent.

I understand why you would not want a trade like this, under the notion the Lions would botch the picks anyways. However if you were told you could get 3-5 starters for Calvin Johnson you would not consider it?

I'm talking like two 1st a 2nd and possibly even a player.

I just look at the Lions being so far away from contention that this would be one of the best avenues to rebuild. I just don't see how a WR will be more valuable over the next 3 years then 4 starters gotten by way of the trade.

Addict
12-17-2009, 11:52 AM
Trading Calvin for 3-5 starters on a team in desperate need of talent.

I understand why you would not want a trade like this, under the notion the Lions would botch the picks anyways. However if you were told you could get 3-5 starters for Calvin Johnson you would not consider it?

I'm talking like two 1st a 2nd and possibly even a player.

I just look at the Lions being so far away from contention that this would be one of the best avenues to rebuild. I just don't see how a WR will be more valuable over the next 3 years then 4 starters gotten by way of the trade.

Because we have plenty of high picks to work with regardless. The problem with the Lions is that for years we have gotten exactly jack out of every pick made after round 2 and very little from everything before it. We are absolutely terrible at drafting. And until Mayhew shows me more than a single decent draft, I'm not ready to just trade away one the best and certainly one of the most talented receivers in this league.

Essentially, I'm not willing to gamble on draft picks, especially not if getting those extra picks means trading away one of the TWO elite talents we have on this team. Furthermore, direct your attention towards San Francisco: they picked a talented QB (regardless of how you felt about Alex Smith coming out, he was plenty talented) and subsequently gave him no talent in the receiving corps and look where that got them.

Yeah we can get some amazing picks for Calvin, but have you stopped to think WHY we could get such good picks for him? He's really, really very good at catching the football and making plays. Look at the Cardinals, they had the same thing going on with Larry Fitz, hell Leinart didn't even work out for them, that didn't mean they were trading Larry (and don't give me the "that's different"-talk, the Cards were hysterically bad just a few years ago).

The problem I have with the 'logic' of your argument is that it makes no sense at all. Trading a supremely talented player so we can draft a middle 1st round rookie (and no way we're getting a top 10 pick for CJ, those teams need the pick) a second-rounder and a few late-rounders? In no way can you disregard Matthew Stafford in this discussion: if he bombs, the Lions can gear up for a few more years of losing. We want Stafford to succeed, and trading away one of the few talented players around him isn't going to help. Let's just draft smart with the picks we have. Once Mayhew shows he has Ozzie-like skill at drafting, I'll shut up about trading for extra picks.

P-L
12-17-2009, 02:00 PM
yes, the key to rebuilding a team is trading away one of the few elite talents we DO have so that we can take another shot at the roulette table. Hey who knows, maybe with that 1st round draft pick Calvin Johnson will surely net us in a trade, we could draft one of the most talented guys in the draft class, you know, like we did a few years ago when we DRAFTED CALVIN JOHNSON.

Good god, maybe the Lions will stop losing for once if for a change we didn't trade away every ounce of talent still in Detroit. What's next? Trade stafford for even more picks? We'll get a first round pick for Matthew for sure!
Alright, I see you're point. We can go 4-12 next year, 6-10 in 2011, 8-8 in 2012 and than Calvin can sign a monster free agent contract with another team who is much closer to contending for a Super Bowl. Then we still don't have him.

Like I said earlier, I don't want to give him away but if some team offers you a great deal you have to listen. He is an elite talent, but he plays one of the least important positions on the field. I'd rather have two excellent defensive players and two or three other starters than one elite wide receiver. It's all about making the overall team better. If someone offers a king's ransom and you feel that you can turn one elite player into multiple starters you have to take the deal. If someone offers you a deal that can't make the team better, you hang up the phone.

The first thing we need to do before continuing this discussion is to stop overrating him. It's not just Lions fans either. Everyone thinks he's the messiah and the greatest human being to walk this earth since Jesus Christ. This has been going on since before he was drafted. He is an elite talent and a physical freak, no doubt. However, he is not yet an elite receiver. He still has flaws that people need to recognize and not ignore just because he is Calvin Johnson. Fact is the guy's hands are average at best (he's like Roy in that he makes the spectacular catches but drops the easy ones), he doesn't play as fast as he times, and he's starting to become and injury concern. Let's treat him as what he is, not what he might become. He is a top ten receiver who has the potential to get even better. He is not Jerry Rice in his prime.

thule
12-17-2009, 02:23 PM
Is there anything that supports this actually happening outside of this site like the rumor mill or something or is this just team forum talk?

Scotty D
12-17-2009, 02:29 PM
Is there anything that supports this actually happening outside of this site like the rumor mill or something or is this just team forum talk?

Columnist Drew Sharp wrote an article suggesting the Lions look into it.

Addict
12-17-2009, 02:38 PM
Alright, I see you're point. We can go 4-12 next year, 6-10 in 2011, 8-8 in 2012 and than Calvin can sign a monster free agent contract with another team who is much closer to contending for a Super Bowl. Then we still don't have him.

What the hell kind of sense does that make? By that logic the lions can just quit playing altogether because all the talent always leaves. Never mind the fact Andre Johnson has remained loyal to the Texans even though they sucked horribly. Why should calvin be any different?

Like I said earlier, I don't want to give him away but if some team offers you a great deal you have to listen. He is an elite talent, but he plays one of the least important positions on the field. I'd rather have two excellent defensive players and two or three other starters than one elite wide receiver.

What I really don't understand is how this argument works. Two excellent defenders? Two or three starters? These are DRAFT PICKS we're talking about. Not established players, draft picks. And given the Lions' track record (I don't care if it's Mayhew, Lions will be Lions until proven otherwise and one draft class isn't proof) I can't believe you can really make a case that a number of draft picks equal a number of starters or stars. Or even players we can keep on roster. Seriously, I don't know where this notion that the Lions can suddenly draft comes from.

It's all about making the overall team better. If someone offers a king's ransom and you feel that you can turn one elite player into multiple starters you have to take the deal. If someone offers you a deal that can't make the team better, you hang up the phone.

Again, not only is there no guarantee whatsoever that the players we get with the draft picks we would get for calvin would become starters, and with the lions track record in the 'getting starters out of draft picks'-departement I'd say the odds of getting 'multiple starters' out of those picks is small. For crying out loud they've had trouble getting multiple starters out of entire draft classes.


The first thing we need to do before continuing this discussion is to stop overrating him. It's not just Lions fans either. Everyone thinks he's the messiah and the greatest human being to walk this earth since Jesus Christ. This has been going on since before he was drafted. He is an elite talent and a physical freak, no doubt. However, he is not yet an elite receiver. He still has flaws that people need to recognize and not ignore just because he is Calvin Johnson. Fact is the guy's hands are average at best (he's like Roy in that he makes the spectacular catches but drops the easy ones), he doesn't play as fast as he times, and he's starting to become and injury concern.

Elite talent is just what I consider him. But he's also netting a 1,000 yard season on a piss-poor team two years in a row and is generally considered the best thing the lions have going for them. You can't deny that.


Let's treat him as what he is, not what he might become. He is a top ten receiver who has the potential to get even better. He is not Jerry Rice in his prime.

I cannot believe you're calling me unrealistic. Have you seen your own argument regarding the return value on Lions draft picks?

Prowler
12-17-2009, 03:56 PM
we were able to land 5 starters out of last years' draft due to millen no longer pulling the strings. there is no guarantee of that happening again, but having an addition 2 first round picks plus another mid rounder would go a long way towards adding overall talent to the team and bridging the gap between us and the other teams in our division. one man can not compete with the packers/vikings/bears. we need talent on our lines and on defense specifically. if by trading calvin we gain the ability to fill another 5 starters or atleast solidify our chances of doing so with the next couple of drafts then f calvin in his butt. we're the lions, not the calvin johnsons.

if trading away our biggest star can solidify the team so we can win more games, then we have to look into it. especially since we've only won 2 games in the past 36-40? if winning only two games didn't scare our fans away, then trading calvin won't either. so we won't lose ticket sales. we need to win by having better overall talent, not relying on a savior. it hasn't worked the past couple of years.

Addict
12-17-2009, 04:13 PM
we were able to land 5 starters out of last years' draft due to millen no longer pulling the strings. there is no guarantee of that happening again, but having an addition 2 first round picks plus another mid rounder would go a long way towards adding overall talent to the team and bridging the gap between us and the other teams in our division. one man can not compete with the packers/vikings/bears. we need talent on our lines and on defense specifically. if by trading calvin we gain the ability to fill another 5 starters or atleast solidify our chances of doing so with the next couple of drafts then f calvin in his butt. we're the lions, not the calvin johnsons.

if trading away our biggest star can solidify the team so we can win more games, then we have to look into it. especially since we've only won 2 games in the past 36-40? if winning only two games didn't scare our fans away, then trading calvin won't either. so we won't lose ticket sales. we need to win by having better overall talent, not relying on a savior. it hasn't worked the past couple of years.

Fine, Mayhew got five starters out of the last draft. That's great. Hooray for Martin Mayhew, honestly. But he was drafting players into a team that went 0-16. Let's be honest here, even I could draft five starters for the lions of last season.

But if he can do a fine job with 5 picks, there is absolutely no point in giving him more draft picks to play with. He did fine with five, then do fine with five. Because I'll tell you what happens: we trade calvin and either we end up kicking ourselves because we get absolutely nothing back for it, or we end up kicking ourselves because Matthew Stafford's growth stunts because he doesn't have a reliable #1 guy to throw to.

For god's sakes we have ONE thing working on this team ONE thing and we're actually discussing trading it away. That's not how you build a team, that's how you run it into the ground.

DoWnThEfiElD
12-17-2009, 06:03 PM
Addict you have a valid point, but I think you are overrating what a #1 WR brings to a team, especially one in the shape we are in.

Addict
12-17-2009, 06:11 PM
Addict you have a valid point, but I think you are overrating what a #1 WR brings to a team, especially one in the shape we are in.

I'm not saying Calvin wins us games, all I'm saying is that you guys are overrating the Lions' FO's ability to draft (yes they have shown improvement after hitting rock bottom, hooray) and all act as if there's some kind of guaranteed return on draft picks. There isn't.

I think Calvin is very important for Stafford. He needs a reliable target, Calvin can provide that. He's not perfect, but he's a standout NFL receiver. I look at P. Manning coming to the 3-13 Colts in his first year, but he did have Marvin Harrison to build with. Not saying we can do what the Colts have done, but it's been done before. Good teams don't become better teams by trading away their stars. Regardless of position.

noondog
12-17-2009, 06:31 PM
How about this as an alternative to the CJ trade talk: The Lions are likely going to be picking at the 3 spot this year, plus or minus a spot. For all intents and purposes, this is where we took CJ. There will likely be teams wanting to trade up, especially if Clausen is available with our pick.

So we keep a known commodity (CJ) and trade down from the #3 spot and pick up additional picks if another team (Washington) is prepared to overpay for the rights to choose their franchise QB.

Personally, I'd much prefer this approach.

Addict
12-17-2009, 06:38 PM
How about this as an alternative to the CJ trade talk: The Lions are likely going to be picking at the 3 spot this year, plus or minus a spot. For all intents and purposes, this is where we took CJ. There will likely be teams wanting to trade up, especially if Clausen is available with our pick.

So we keep a known commodity (CJ) and trade down from the #3 spot and pick up additional picks if another team (Washington) is prepared to overpay for the rights to choose their franchise QB.

Personally, I'd much prefer this approach.

this makes a lot more sense!

Prowler
12-17-2009, 07:17 PM
no way. a boat is a boat but the box could be anything. it could even be a boat. you know how much we've been needing one of those!

whoa i just read a thing on espn insider with the headline of calvin johnson on the block. they just brought up drew sharp and terry foster of the free press and detroit news. it says nothing about front office intentions but maybe could be used in a forum mock situation.

sharp's article
http://www.freep.com/article/20091216/COL08/912160313/1354/SPORTS/Lions-should-look-into-trading-Calvin-Johnson

foster's article
http://apps.detnews.com/apps/blogs/terryfosterblog/index.php?blogid=1873

noondog
12-18-2009, 08:18 AM
no way. a boat is a boat but the box could be anything. it could even be a boat. you know how much we've been needing one of those!

whoa i just read a thing on espn insider with the headline of calvin johnson on the block. they just brought up drew sharp and terry foster of the free press and detroit news. it says nothing about front office intentions but maybe could be used in a forum mock situation.

sharp's article
http://www.freep.com/article/20091216/COL08/912160313/1354/SPORTS/Lions-should-look-into-trading-Calvin-Johnson

foster's article
http://apps.detnews.com/apps/blogs/terryfosterblog/index.php?blogid=1873

Sounds like espn insider just wrote something based on the opinions of two journalists in the Detroit area. It's not a reflection of the Lions' FO's thoughts per se.

Again, what has more value: CJ or the #3 pick if Clausen is available there. It changes a lot of the teams who would be potential trading partners. As an example, if Seattle offered their two first round picks and maybe a 3rd for the chance to pick their future franchise QB, then we would have something in the neighbourhood of the #8, #24, #35, #40 and two third round picks. Imo, that would go just as far as trading CJ if not further, because we would end up keeping a stud receiver AND addressing a lot of needs.

STL beating Hou at home this week would go a looong way in helping our cause to that end.

619
12-18-2009, 08:26 AM
Could this be another Herschel Walker dilemma? The Cowboys were ******* terrible back then (like the Lions now) 'til they traded away their best player for a gazillion picks. Safe to say it was the best thing that ever happened to the franchise. DO IT DETROIT!

Scotty D
12-18-2009, 08:32 AM
http://www.mlive.com/lions/index.ssf/2009/12/trade_calvin_johnson_completel.html

"To me, it's completely insane,'' Lions offensive coordinator Scott Linehan said. "Calvin Johnson is one of the best receivers in football and he's had to struggle through some things this year from a health standpoint, but once you've got one of those, you don't want to lose him. That's one man's opinion. I would be pretty depressed.


"When you find those elite players ... I had a really good personnel guy tell me he'd take one guy like Calvin Johnson over 10 draft picks because you're trying to find one of those every couple of years.''

Say what you want about Scott Linehan but he was a head coach in this league and currently an offensive coordinator and I take his opinion over Drew Sharp or others. I'm sure anyone that actually works for the Lions or in the NFL would say its INSANE!

Hermstheman83
12-18-2009, 09:13 AM
Not to evesdrop on this conversation. But the herschel walker trade worked out really well. But, the most recent memory of one team that traded away their best player. Jared Allen was traded for a 1st, 3rd and a sixth?. Anyways, we currently have one decent player out of that trade, the sixth rounder(Robinson) was cut and Dajuan Morgan definately have lived up to the hype. I think it would be crazy to trade away one of the best WR's in the league.

Maybe Next Year Millen2
12-18-2009, 09:34 AM
Hello McFly Hello

Calvin is not going anywhere. At least if Linehan is the OC

http://www.mlive.com/lions/index.ssf/2009/12/trade_calvin_johnson_completel.html

It just creates another hole. Do you know what it would take to replace Calvin. A 1st round pick WR(which is hit or miss) or a big time FA WR(which why would they come here) and hitting on a 2nd round pick WR(Vincent Jackson,De Sean Jackson,Royal). Plus most WRs not all, but most need a few years to develop. If you want to screw over Stafford, trade Calvin and gamble on some draft picks.

We would have the worst WR corps in the league if we got rid of Calvin.

Prowler
12-18-2009, 11:53 AM
well linehan does have to say that to appease calvin. if we lose the last 3 games then we will have lost 37 out of our last 40 regular season games. 3-37. i'd take 3 starters vs 1 superstar right now.

if we trade down we'd only swap first rounders and pick up a 2nd and a 4th rounder. a 2nd and 4th rounder vs 2 1st rounders and a mid round pick(hypothetically) isn't good enough, especially since we'd most likely lose the chance at okung, mccoy, and berry. if they feel like offering their first next year too and us getting a kings ransom then sure.

detknowitall
12-18-2009, 03:43 PM
I dont want to see Calvin traded, but IF he was and thats a really strong if. Then I would want to see at least 2 SOLID, YOUNG starters plus draft picks of say and 1st, 3rd, and 2nd the following year in return. He's that game changing. If we had a receiver that was at least reliable playing opposite the offense would look completely differently. The only time you trade away one of the best players at their position is if you from the AFC West. Ala Randy Moss, or Jared Allen.

JFLO
12-18-2009, 04:00 PM
The Megatron trade talk is is picking up, I've seen three or four different stories talking how he may not be with the team next season.

WMD
12-18-2009, 04:04 PM
Like I said before.. I wouldn't want to trade him but I understand why they would.

noondog
12-18-2009, 04:28 PM
well linehan does have to say that to appease calvin. if we lose the last 3 games then we will have lost 37 out of our last 40 regular season games. 3-37. i'd take 3 starters vs 1 superstar right now.

if we trade down we'd only swap first rounders and pick up a 2nd and a 4th rounder. a 2nd and 4th rounder vs 2 1st rounders and a mid round pick(hypothetically) isn't good enough, especially since we'd most likely lose the chance at okung, mccoy, and berry. if they feel like offering their first next year too and us getting a kings ransom then sure.

Prowler, I respect your opinions on here, but I respectfully disagree with the notion that 3 starters are better than one superstar. As an example, which would you rather have at this point: Patrick Willis or Peterson, Foote and Levy? I'll take Willis. To be fair, we should define the term "starter". Are we talking about dudes who could start for the Lions right now, or dudes who can start for an average to above-average team. There's a significant difference.

Even then, we have to consider residual consequences of getting rid of CJ. We invested a #1 overall pick in Matthew Stafford. Getting rid of CJ would, in all likelyhood, stunt his growth as a QB. Having CJ to throw to gives Stafford a higher level of security in throwing deep balls, jump balls, etc, because he knows that CJ can make those plays where average WR's can't necessarily. Getting rid of that security could potentially result in Stafford losing some of his confidence in making the passes we drafted him for, resulting in a heck of a lot of checkdowns...we didn't draft him to do that.

As for Linehan's comments, I'm willing to bet that they're genuine. I don't know that there's an OC in the league who wouldn't drool at the chance to have CJ in their offense.

cotts1
12-18-2009, 10:19 PM
I don't think we should trade Calvin unless the offer is exceptional (would have to be ATLEAST a 1st and 2nd this year and another 1st next year). Larry Fitzgerald has shown how valuable a dominant receiver can be. I think the Lions should follow Arizona's team model. We have a gun-slinger at QB, We have our Larry Fitz in CJ. We need a competent number 2 receiver via free agency. Bryant Johnson is garbage. We have our future TE in Bpetts. Defense just needs to be built up now. If we can't get Suh, Berry should be the pick. McCoy is a reach in the top 10 IMO.

SINCE1978
12-19-2009, 04:04 PM
http://www.freep.com/article/20091217/SPORTS01/91217035/1049/Trade-Calvin-Johnson?-Lions-say-no-way

Lions brass says no way to a megatron deal. In theory it made sense, let's just hope they can hit on 4 or 5 draft picks again! I guess this is a test of faith .... Mayhew/Schwartz get it done fellas!

WMD
12-19-2009, 04:38 PM
Well of course they're gonna say they don't want to trade Calvin. I have a hard time believing anything any executive says. You have to keep the player happy. I'm not saying that I think they want to.. but them making any kind of comment right now does nothing for me.

Just like the comments on Jeff Backus. Of course they're gonna say he's playing well. Does anyone really expect the OL Coach to say Jeff Backus is bad and that they're gonna release him ASAP? What good does that do?

SINCE1978
12-19-2009, 05:23 PM
If I were to guess ... keeping CJ happy would consist of A) winning games & B) getting him the ball more than 4 times a game!!

WMD
12-19-2009, 05:37 PM
If I were to guess ... keeping CJ happy would consist of A) winning games & B) getting him the ball more than 4 times a game!!
Ya I agree. I've noticed that sometimes the CB will play off of Calvin a little because of his speed. Why not just toss him the ball and give him some room to run? CB's can't tackle.. plus, Calvin is a big fella.. Seems like it'd be an easy 5 yards at the least.

El Peefs?????
12-19-2009, 06:10 PM
Hate the idea of trading Calvin. For one, stop saying 'we replace him with 5 starters'. No, you get 5 rookies (scouted by the Lions brass, mind you). Completely untested and to a large degree unknown. You hope they turn into starters. You hope someone becomes half the player Calvin is.

Then what message does this send to Stafford? You draft a guy to build the franchise around, don't help him out along the o-line, then trade away his only, i mean only, weapon. Ouch.

You know what would be a good idea to do in 2 years P-L? Pay Calvin Johnson. If your plan goes as you were saying, improving 2-3 wins each year, it would seem to mean that Stafford is progressing. You dont think Calvin would have any interest in resigning for a continuously improving team possessing a good young QB with whom he has chemistry?

If things actually do get worse next year, or not any better at all. Then talk about unloading him, clearly things arent working. His value won't be any lesser then, assuming no major injuries.

SINCE1978
12-19-2009, 06:38 PM
The message to Stafford is a good point. Especially now with Smith & Pettigrew ailing (both likely PUP members for training camp) so the previously anemic run game is now non existent. Maurice Morris ... really, come on? I would hope this leads to a healthy dose of Aaron Brown. At least get a grade of where the rookie is at? (Even in a bad way)

Prowler
12-19-2009, 09:14 PM
....we could get a cj spiller plus a mid round guard(asamoah) this year plus a first rounder next year for calvin.

just beating a dead horse

Scotty D
12-19-2009, 09:20 PM
Nnamdi + 1st + Jamarcus Russell for Calvin : /

SINCE1978
12-19-2009, 09:43 PM
I don't want J-Rock & his back fat in Detroit.

Prowler
12-19-2009, 10:05 PM
and they eat his salary so we can immediately cut jamarcus?

Scotty D
12-19-2009, 10:05 PM
Oh I was just joking about Jamarcus :D

Prowler
12-20-2009, 10:06 AM
i don't know, he could play some DT

SINCE1978
12-20-2009, 01:03 PM
They like the beefy QB's ... C Pepp was almost 3bills when he showed up off the street last year. (kidding of course about even considering Russell)

Culpepper is not a starter in this league anymore. His "accurate" balls float, his deep ball lacks zip & his scrambling skills are rusty. Maybe in a unique setting he could back up (Baltimore or NY Jets come to mind) but his aspirations of starting again in this league are a pipe dream. (after the next 3 weeks I mean) Why we are not getting meaningful tape on Stanton is beyond me! We can not have a mystery at back up next year with a 2nd year guy starting that takes the pounding he does. Maybe they are planning on bringing in a veteran and keeping Stanton at #3? What a mismanaged,trade up #2 draft pick ...geesh!

LOLitsTomBrady
12-22-2009, 12:01 AM
If we're going to trade CJ, it better be ridiculously good in our favor. Im talking a 1st round, a pro bowl starter (preferably a LT or LG) , a 2nd and a 4th rounder.

Free Agency i would target a couple WRs, a DE, a safety, a new TE to backup Pettigrew, some depth in the secondary.

the draft would then be
1 Suh
1b. CB
2. DE
2b. OL
3. WR
4. CB
4b. OL
5. DT
6. MLB
7. RB

with our amazing draft last year, it seems our front office knows what they're doing. We could easily get 4-5 starters with 10 picks. Including a legit star at DT with Suh (assuming he doesnt become "Lionized")

BuffaloBillsFan
12-29-2009, 07:47 PM
Buffalo is on the line:

We offer you our 2nd, 4th + Marshawn Lynch and our 1st next year.

Do you take it?

Scotty D
12-29-2009, 07:55 PM
Buffalo is on the line:

We offer you our 2nd, 4th + Marshawn Lynch and our 1st next year.

Do you take it?

1st, 4th + Marshawn + 1st next year

Prowler
12-29-2009, 08:20 PM
and you take ernie sims

superman8456
12-29-2009, 08:31 PM
1st, 4th + Marshawn + 1st next year

That would NEVER ever happen. Two 1sts and a probowler?

I think if a GM got offered a 2nd, 4th, Marshawn and a 1st next year, you have to take that. You get a starting runningback, making a pretty good combo for Stafford. You have a high 2nd round pick, having 3 picks in the top 40. A 1st next year, which is a steal imo because I dont think the Bills are going to turn it around, so you'll wind up with a top 15 pick the next year with a draft class of potentially AJ Green, Julio Jones, DeAndre Brown, etc, etc.

I also highly doubt you guys have a chance at resigning him.

BuffaloBillsFan
12-29-2009, 08:36 PM
and you take ernie sims

You got a deal, sir.

Scotty D
12-29-2009, 08:40 PM
That would NEVER ever happen. Two 1sts and a probowler?

You are right, Calvin would never get traded.

Maybe Next Year Millen2
12-29-2009, 09:36 PM
That would NEVER ever happen. Two 1sts and a probowler?

I think if a GM got offered a 2nd, 4th, Marshawn and a 1st next year, you have to take that. You get a starting runningback, making a pretty good combo for Stafford. You have a high 2nd round pick, having 3 picks in the top 40. A 1st next year, which is a steal imo because I dont think the Bills are going to turn it around, so you'll wind up with a top 15 pick the next year with a draft class of potentially AJ Green, Julio Jones, DeAndre Brown, etc, etc.

I also highly doubt you guys have a chance at resigning him.

Decent deal. How does anyone know we can't resign him with 3 years left on his contract. And who really cares for resigning him at this point, he is under contract for 3 more years plus at least one franchise tag, maybe 2. I'll worry about that in 5 years. If we suck in 5 years we got bigger problems and probably will stop caring at that point.

StorminNorman
12-30-2009, 02:34 AM
If Stafford becomes the QB he should be, Calvin will want to stay with him.

zachsaints52
12-30-2009, 02:57 AM
Decent deal. How does anyone know we can't resign him with 3 years left on his contract. And who really cares for resigning him at this point, he is under contract for 3 more years plus at least one franchise tag, maybe 2. I'll worry about that in 5 years. If we suck in 5 years we got bigger problems and probably will stop caring at that point.

I think this post pretty muched summed it up.

SINCE1978
12-30-2009, 08:31 AM
I WANT THIS THREAD TO GO AWAY NOW.

LonghornsLegend
12-30-2009, 10:13 AM
I also highly doubt you guys have a chance at resigning him.

And you know this because? Oh maybe it's because is so strapped for cash with all of their pro bowlers right? Or maybe it's because you can see the future and tell Detroit will suck forever just like the Dolphins and Falcons a few years ago right?


That comment makes absolutely no sense, and there is not even ONE thing you could list that would make it even somewhat true. Even if he went the Chad Johnson route and whined his way out(which he wouldn't because that's never been his character), the Bengals showed that if anything a team decides where a player ends up.

Monomach
12-30-2009, 03:52 PM
If the Bears had Megatron, I wouldn't trade him for less than 2 firsts and a third. Three firsts if he were going in the same division.

SINCE1978
12-30-2009, 07:15 PM
If the Bears had Megatron, I wouldn't trade him for less than 2 firsts and a third. Three firsts if he were going in the same division.

The Bears don't have the draft pick ammunition until like 2011 with the Culter & Gaines Adams trades!!

Scotty D
12-30-2009, 09:57 PM
The Bears don't have the draft pick ammunition until like 2011 with the Culter & Gaines Adams trades!!

The Gaines Adams trade was really really bad.

Addict
12-31-2009, 08:12 AM
The Gaines Adams trade was really really bad.

a second round pick isn't all that bad. it's only unfortunate that they already traded away everything else to get Cutler.

for the record: I do believe Cutler will pull himself together and make the Bears a much better football team next season.

SINCE1978
12-31-2009, 08:34 AM
Just adding to the Bears discussion ... they are a 6-9 team (probably 7-9 if they beat Detroit Sunday) and that would make them 4-4 in the division. Whoopy!!! They won't pick until rd 3 in this draft and better go Oline to protect their ASSet (Cutler).

Call me a homer but I would rather have Matt Stafford/Johnson/Pettigrew and a full arsenal of picks to improve the D then wino Cutler and rd 3 picks and beyond with 7 wins. Give us 2 more off season and we will have passed Chicago in the NFC North. Just my opinion ...

Addict
12-31-2009, 08:44 AM
Just adding to the Bears discussion ... they are a 6-9 team (probably 7-9 if they beat Detroit Sunday) and that would make them 4-4 in the division. Whoopy!!! They won't pick until rd 3 in this draft and better go Oline to protect their ASSet (Cutler).

Call me a homer but I would rather have Matt Stafford/Johnson/Pettigrew and a full arsenal of picks to improve the D then wino Cutler and rd 3 picks and beyond with 7 wins. Give us 2 more off season and we will have passed Chicago in the NFC North. Just my opinion ...

Call me a cynic but I don't think Cutler will struggle next season, at least not as much as he has this season. Besides, they'll get Urlacher back next season as well. Face it, when it comes to the NFC North we have some ways to go. But with a decent-ish line, a promising quarterback and a few guys able to catch balls and/or run with them.
A little defense and who konws, we might be able to challenge Chicago. Maybe.

tblain1
12-31-2009, 09:41 AM
The Bears don't have the draft pick ammunition until like 2011 with the Culter & Gaines Adams trades!!

I think he was painting a hypothetical of "if he were a bear I wouldn't trade him unless..."

The way the Bears have been drafting though (sounds horrible to say) but they are better off with Cutler. The guy can be great.

The team I'm wondering about for next year is Minnesota. Will Favre really retire this time? If so, who is their QB?

SINCE1978
12-31-2009, 03:28 PM
I think he was painting a hypothetical of "if he were a bear I wouldn't trade him unless..."

The way the Bears have been drafting though (sounds horrible to say) but they are better off with Cutler. The guy can be great.

The team I'm wondering about for next year is Minnesota. Will Favre really retire this time? If so, who is their QB?

Sure he was ... Chicago would salivate over a WR like CJ. For now they have Johnny Knox ;o)

Cutler has already been a Pro Bowler, not a bold statement to call him great imo. I am not a fan however of him or his skills even. His on field body language & cry baby/ "me first" mentality in the locker room would not settle well with me if I were a teammate.

Yeah the QB carousel in Viking land will be interesting for 2010 and beyond. Clearly the confidence towards Sage & Tavaris as starters is low.

Monomach
12-31-2009, 10:37 PM
The Bears don't have the draft pick ammunition until like 2011 with the Culter & Gaines Adams trades!!

This has nothing to do with what I said. Why would you reply with this?

Can you not read?

StorminNorman
12-31-2009, 11:05 PM
Probably not.

Prowler
01-01-2010, 07:35 AM
you'd need all the picks you could get

noondog
01-01-2010, 02:04 PM
This thread is dead. Let's let it happen with dignity.

SINCE1978
01-01-2010, 02:50 PM
If the Bears had Megatron, I wouldn't trade him for less than 2 firsts and a third. Three firsts if he were going in the same division.
In the history of the NFL has any team ever traded 3 1st rd draft picks?? I read that correctly right Monomach??

Monomach
01-02-2010, 11:10 AM
In the history of the NFL has any team ever traded 3 1st rd draft picks?? I read that correctly right Monomach??

Yes, you read that part correctly...not that your previous reply had a single thing to do with it. Your previous reply was a complete non sequitur. It would be like me saying out of the blue "YEAH, WELL THE LIONS HAVE BEEN PATHETIC FOR YEARS" in response to you talking about whether or not you should draft a DT this year.

...and yes, a team has traded 3 first round picks...plus three 2nd round picks, one 3rd round pick, one 6th round pick, and five players. That team is in our division, for Christ's sake.

There was also a recent trade of an entire draft plus another first and third. That would be more than three firsts.

How young do you have to be to not remember these? They weren't all that long ago and both are legendary in the football world and even on this forum.