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princefielder28
01-08-2010, 02:46 PM
I decided to give my input on prospects that I think deserve these labels. The players are in no certain order, and I'm interested to see what you guys think or other names that may need to be considered.

Underrated

1. Lamarr Houston : DT : Texas
-He's had as good a season as anyone at the position not named Suh. I see a player like Jared Odrick getting consideration for the end of round one and I wonder how his name can't be in the conversation too.

2. Pat Angerer : ILB : Iowa
-A tackling machine on one of the nation's top defenses. He's not the biggest guy, height-wise, but he's got sideline to sideline speed and can really hit. I'm thinking he'll be a better fit in a 3-4.

3. Jason Fox : OT : Miami(FL)
-I know he's got the injury label attached with his name, but since he's stepped onto ther U's campus he's been a player and I think he has the ability to be a solid option at LT in the NFL.

4. Emmanuel Sanders : WR : SMU
-A playmaker with the ball in his hands who really excelled in Jones' system at SMU. This WR class isn't very deep and I'm surprised his name isn't getting more attention considering his ability to make plays.

5. Alterraun Verner : CB : UCLA
-Physically his measurables aren't through the roof but he's a player that gets it and produces. Again, much like the WR class, the CB class isn't very deep and his production in school may give him the nod over some others.

6. O’Brien Schofield : DE/OLB : Wisconsin
-He certainly has received more attention here as of late but I don't think it's up to the level that he deserves. He's a terror and knows how to get to the QB. A player that will thrive on the outside in a 3-4.

7. Taylor Price : WR : Ohio
-Not a name that gets a ton of attention, but he's got some intriguing measurables at 6-1, 210 lbs with 4.4 speed. He's production at Ohio may not compete with sopme others but I think that has alot to do with the poor quarterback play at Ohio rather than his abilities.

Overrated

1. Sergio Kindle : OLB : Texas
-I can understand some of the hype because he can get after the quarterback, but he runs too hot and cold for me to think that he's worth a Top 20 pick like some are talking about. I think he needs quite a bit of coaching because his playmaking has very little to do with technique and everything to do with straight line speed.

2. Russell Okung : OT : Oklahoma State
-Again, like Kindle, is the talent there? Of course it is, but I don't know if he's talented enough to be taken Top 5. I think a lack of elite prospects at the position allow him to move up boards higher than he normally would have in a different year. I believe he'll struggle with speed rushers in the NFL, but he'll still piece together a nice NFL career.

3. Terrence Cody : NT : Alabama
-Cody's hype is the one I struggle with thew most. He's a huge S.O.B. but he's not a penetrating NT like Raji was last year and his conditioning is a big question mark. Honestly I view him as nothing more than a bottom of the 2nd round type player with hopes that he can become something more than just a space eater.

4. Corey Wootton : DE : Northwestern
-Wootton had a nice junior year before suffering a knee injury, and since then he has looked like an average prospect. He didn't make any noise in the Big Ten this season where you had players like Graham, Schofield, Heyward, and Clayborn all making noise. I think his best fit is at LE in a 4-3, but I don't view him as anything more than a 3rd rounder and I think people get caught up in the measurables but at some point that has to translate to production on the field.

5. Selvish Capers : OT : West Virginia
-An athletic tackle whose stock is based purely off potential and I'm fine with that but what has he done to be considered a day one pick?

6. Patrick Robinson : CB : Florida State
-Robinson has some intriguing measurables, much like everyone on this list, but I don't think he had the season at Florida State to warrant a first round selection. I'd like to see better ball skills from him to consider him someone I'd take in the first 50 picks.

7. Jason Pierre-Paul : DE : South Florida
-An atheltic lineman who had a solid first season at South Florida, and I think his potential allows him to be a first round consideration, but I would not think about taking him with a top 10 selection.

8. Reshad Jones : S : Georgia
-A player who has some upside and can take advantage of a weak safety class at the top but I see him being mocked in the first round and I just don't see the play on the field that would give him such a high stock.

Babylon
01-08-2010, 03:01 PM
Very nice i'd add:

Overrated: (in terms of their draft stock)

Bruce Campbell, Maryland
Charles Brown, USC
Jermaine Gresham, OU
Colt McCoy, Texas
Jahvid Best, Cal

Underrated: (in terms of draft stock)
Taylor Mays
Toby Gerhart
Bryan Bulaga
Carlos Dunlap
Nate Allen

RealityCheck
01-08-2010, 03:15 PM
Overrated:
1. Terrence Cody, DT, Alabama
2. Colt McCoy, QB, Texas
3. Anthony Davis, OT, Rutgers
4. D'Anthony Smith, DT, Louisiana Tech
5. Levi Brown, QB, Troy
6. Koa Misi, DE, Utah
7. Navorro Bowman, OLB, Penn State
8. Jon Asamoah, OG, Illinois
9. Jason Pierre-Paul, DE, South Florida
10. Ryan Mathews, RB, Fresno State

Underrated:
1. Riley Cooper, WR, Florida
2. Lindsey Witten, DE, Connecticut
3. Vladimir Ducasse, OT, UMass
4. John Skelton, QB, Fordham
5. Seyi Ajirotutu, WR, Fresno State
6. Ed Dickson, TE, Oregon
7. Tony Pike, QB, Cincinnati
8. Dexter McCluster, WR, Ole Miss
9. Freddie Barnes, WR, Bowling Green
10. Taylor Mays, S, USC

BeerBaron
01-08-2010, 03:23 PM
Okung struggling with speed rushers in the pros? Everything I've heard on him touts his athleticism and if anything, it would be run blocking and handling bull rushers that I thought were his weaknesses. I don't disagree with him about being overrated and being pushed up do to the lack of someone elite, but where do you get he'd struggle with speed rushers from?

As for Kindle, if you wrote this at this time yesterday, I'd agree, but he dominated in the championship game last night. He may still be a bit overrated but he was beasting against Alabama's very quality o-line last night, making multiple sacks and a few good plays against the run too. I think he'll still end up a first rounder, in contrast to recent mocks I've seen that have him slipping halfway through the 2nd round in some cases.

Just two thoughts I had, can't disagree with much of the rest.

Giantsfan1080
01-08-2010, 03:26 PM
How is Davis overrated. He's rated as the 2nd or 3rd best OT in the draft and likely to go in the 10-18 range. You think he's worse than that?

DiG
01-08-2010, 03:27 PM
Underrated


3. Jason Fox : OT : Miami(FL)
-I know he's got the injury label attached with his name, but since he's stepped onto ther U's campus he's been a player and I think he has the ability to be a solid option at LT in the NFL.


I like most of yours but I have do disagree with this one and not because of his injury. Fox struggles with his footwork and is below average in the run game. if anything i think hes being overrated as an early mid 2nd round guy and belongs more imo as an early mid rd 3 guy.

Some of my underrated prospects:

Jared Veldheer, OT, Hillsdale - He's this years Vollmer and should see a similar rise in stock come draft day. At 6'9, 320lbs he reportedly runs a sub 4.90 40 time. He is extremely strong and plows people in the run game. His combo of size/speed/athleticism is nearly as impressive as the beloved Bruce Campbell.

AJ Edds, OLB, Iowa - He's a former tight end that shows great agility and speed considering his size. Always up in the line of scrimmage making tackles and has shown the ability to shed blockers well.

princefielder28
01-08-2010, 05:20 PM
Okung struggling with speed rushers in the pros? Everything I've heard on him touts his athleticism and if anything, it would be run blocking and handling bull rushers that I thought were his weaknesses. I don't disagree with him about being overrated and being pushed up do to the lack of someone elite, but where do you get he'd struggle with speed rushers from?



I question the level of competition in the Big XII and how solid of an evaluation you can get for his pass protecting skills against average pass rushers. The majority of impact players along the DL in the Big XII come at tackle and I don't see much NFL talent being thrown at Okung week-in and week-out. Has he performed well in pass protection? Definitely but I see instances where I think, come to the NFL, and he'll struggle to prevent that edge rusher from getting to the edge and to the QB. Maybe am I being too picky with Okung since he is so hyped? That's a possibility, and I hope I get a better answer with all the postseason work leading up to the draft.

Personally I like Anthony Davis more than Okung and I would feel far more comfortable taking Davis with pick 10 than Okung with pick 5.

gpngc
01-08-2010, 05:23 PM
Agree that Kindle is overrated. He gets lost in the run game too much.

Underrated is C.J. Spiller. Even with Chris Johnson doing what he's done this season no one seems to appreciate that Spiller can/will do the exact same thing.

Babylon
01-08-2010, 05:48 PM
I question the level of competition in the Big XII and how solid of an evaluation you can get for his pass protecting skills against average pass rushers. The majority of impact players along the DL in the Big XII come at tackle and I don't see much NFL talent being thrown at Okung week-in and week-out. Has he performed well in pass protection? Definitely but I see instances where I think, come to the NFL, and he'll struggle to prevent that edge rusher from getting to the edge and to the QB. Maybe am I being too picky with Okung since he is so hyped? That's a possibility, and I hope I get a better answer with all the postseason work leading up to the draft.

Personally I like Anthony Davis more than Okung and I would feel far more comfortable taking Davis with pick 10 than Okung with pick 5.

I think the Tackle group as a whole is pretty close, I like Davis but not sure i'd annoint him over the others till we see what comes out of the combine. I have about 4 guys neck and neck right now (Davis, Okung, Bulaga, Carimi).

Giantsfan1080
01-08-2010, 06:00 PM
Davis is going to kill at the combine. Rutgers players have been doing well there for the last 2 or 3 years.

TACKLE
01-08-2010, 06:09 PM
Great list PF. I can't say I really disagree with any of those. Really glad to see Lamarr Houston is finally getting the recognition he deserves.

Add Bruce Campbell to the overrated. He has done nothing on the field to remotely warrant a 1st round pick let alone a Top 15 selection.

As for underrated I'd add Mike Williams. Obviously there are serious questions about him but I get the impression that he just wasn't interested in the academic side of university. He is a very talented and productive receiver. On the field, there is very little that actually separates him from Dez Bryant. Mike Williams is a terrific natural athlete with excellent jumping ability and hands. He also has enough speed to break the big play. He has been very productive despite having sub-par QB play. If he lasts to the 3rd round, he will be a HUGE steal.

Ryden
01-08-2010, 06:35 PM
OVERRATED

1. Taylor Mays
2. Colt McCoy
3. Dez Bryant
4. Bryan Bulaga
5. A. Benn

UNDERRATED

1. Riley Cooper
2. Nate Allen
3. Kyle McCarthy
4. Blair White
5. Greg Jones

SenorGato
01-09-2010, 12:33 AM
Underrated is more fun so...:

Oghobaase
Mike Neal
Greg Hardy - Injuries have gotten him a Harvin treatment.
Jacoby Ford - Better pro than college player, possibly.
Anthony McCoy - Might end up the best TE in the class.
Kam Chancellor
Kurt Coleman
Shay Hodge
Kyle Calloway
Boo Robinson
Donovan Warren
Brandon Ghee
AJ Edds
Brandon Lang

Hines
01-09-2010, 01:16 AM
I think Robert Johnson from Utah is very underrated. Noone seems to talk about him and he is a great playmaker at the safety position.

adamprez2003
01-09-2010, 02:06 AM
greaT LIST. I disagree only on a couple. I dont think Angerer and Price are underrated. I think they're pretty fairly valued currently. Could change after the all star games and combine though. Also I'm a fan of Pat Robinson so I think he's sorta fairly valued if he's slotted between 18 and 40.

Guys I think could be added to the list

Underrated
QB Jon Crompton
WR Chris McGaha
WR Rich Gunnell
WR Danario Alexander
TE Dennis Morris
OG Shaw Lavvuo
OG Terrance Campbell
C Ted Larson
DE Willie Young
DE CJ Wilson
DT GENO Atkins
OLB Cavell conner
CB Devin McCurty
FS Van eskridge

oV ERRATED

wr Brandon Lafell
OT Ciron Black
DE Carlos Dunlap
DT Vincet Oghobeese

wordofi
01-09-2010, 02:28 AM
Very nice i'd add:

Overrated: (in terms of their draft stock)

Bruce Campbell, Maryland
Charles Brown, USC
Jermaine Gresham, OU
Colt McCoy, Texas
Jahvid Best, Cal

Underrated: (in terms of draft stock)
Taylor Mays
Toby Gerhart
Bryan Bulaga
Carlos Dunlap
Nate Allen

I like your list. I also think that Bulaga is the best tackle in the draft.

SenorGato
01-09-2010, 02:42 AM
I like your list. I also think that Bulaga is the best tackle in the draft.

+1 on Bulaga

Best T yes, but really I just think he's the best overall OL. I think he'd also make an excellent LG if he didn't work out. 2nd best OL would be Iupati.

Pretty much what I thought of him, but I like him as a T too now.

Ozzy
01-10-2010, 07:39 AM
1. Sergio Kindle : OLB : Texas
-I can understand some of the hype because he can get after the quarterback, but he runs too hot and cold for me to think that he's worth a Top 20 pick like some are talking about. I think he needs quite a bit of coaching because his playmaking has very little to do with technique and everything to do with straight line speed.
Um, did you see the national title game or no?

princefielder28
01-10-2010, 09:02 AM
Um, did you see the national title game or no?

I did but that was only one game and I take his entire season into account. He can look pretty good like he did that night but against a team like A&M he looks average at best with poor technique and an inability to get to the QB.

P-L
01-10-2010, 09:31 AM
Um, did you see the national title game or no?
Did you see the five or six games this year when he was completely invisible?

phlysac
01-10-2010, 09:56 AM
Um, did you see the national title game or no?

I did and even though it was his best game of the season, even that game showed his inconsistencies.

On back-to-back plays Kindle...

1. Ran in, unblocked for a huge sack.
2. Got blocked 8 yards downfield by the TE on a run to his side.

FUNBUNCHER
01-10-2010, 10:00 AM
I think Kindle forces his way into the top 10 off a potentially freakish combine; close to or at 6'4, over 250# with a sub 4.6 40.

True he had games where he didn't show much, but the raw ability is there, he just needs to bring it every Sunday.

With the SKins in dire need of a LT at pick #4, ( unless they trade down), none of these tackles WOWs me enough to be taken in the top 5.

Anthony Davis or Okung seem like possibles, but still both would be overdrafted by about 6 or 7 pics.

It sucks to have a top 4 pick!!!!

rfc17
01-10-2010, 10:09 AM
im surprised to see a few people list Riley Cooper so high as underrated. I question his route running ability. very fast straight line but doesnt seem to have a lot of quickness to him. but his biggest weakness imo is his hands. always been very inconsistent catching the ball in his career.

id be scared to draft him earlier than the 4th. but i tend to like WRs who have great hands first and then i worry about the other stuff later.

Sniper
01-10-2010, 11:45 AM
Did you see the five or six games this year when he was completely invisible?

So he's like Carlos Dunlap?

JaxJag_1
01-10-2010, 12:02 PM
Overrated:
Colt McCoy
Brandon LaFell
Trent Williams
Ricky Sapp
Brandon Spikes
Patrick Robinson
Taylor Mays

Underrated:
Taylor Price
Ed Dickson
Jerry Hughes
O'Brien Schofield
Arthur Jones
Boo Robinson
Nate Allen

Babylon
01-10-2010, 12:12 PM
im surprised to see a few people list Riley Cooper so high as underrated. I question his route running ability. very fast straight line but doesnt seem to have a lot of quickness to him. but his biggest weakness imo is his hands. always been very inconsistent catching the ball in his career.

id be scared to draft him earlier than the 4th. but i tend to like WRs who have great hands first and then i worry about the other stuff later.


What's Cooper being talked as a 4th round pick? i think that puts him in the underrated column.

Cooper in that spread formation is asked to run some underneath and deep routes, he has no trouble doing that. The thing i like about him is his ability to beat press coverage not only at the line of scrimmage but also down field. He's made some great catches and i think the hands issue was a two or three game thing and that was it. (its' harder to catch a wounded duck than a tight spiral).

nofalcons10
01-10-2010, 12:15 PM
Underrated is more fun so...:

Oghobaase
Mike Neal
Greg Hardy - Injuries have gotten him a Harvin treatment.
Jacoby Ford - Better pro than college player, possibly.
Anthony McCoy - Might end up the best TE in the class.
Kam Chancellor
Kurt Coleman
Shay Hodge
Kyle Calloway
Boo Robinson
Donovan Warren
Brandon Ghee
AJ Edds
Brandon Lang


i think that mccoy is very underrated also.

mccoy is a beast. he's alot like alge crumpler in his heyday.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-5jcyz-nSVs


before it's all said and done he might even be a top 15 pick.

phlysac
01-10-2010, 12:44 PM
Do my best to do players yet to be mentioned...

Overrated Offense

1. Jimmy Clausen
2. Sam Bradford
3. Tony Pike
4. Golden Tate
5. Jahvid Best

Overrated Defense

1. Nate Allen
2. Trevard Lindley
3. Ras I-Dowling
4. Donovan Warren
5. Sean Lee

Underrated Offense

1. Mike Iupati
2. Naaman Roosevelt
3. Mitch Petrus
4. Anthony Dixon
5. Jarrett Brown

Underrated Defense

1. Syd'Quan Thompson
2. Willie Young
3. Micah Johnson
4. Torrell Troup
5. Brandon Sharpe

nofalcons10
01-10-2010, 12:49 PM
Do my best to do players yet to be mentioned...

Overrated Offense

1. Jimmy Clausen
2. Sam Bradford
3. Tony Pike
4. Golden Tate
5. Jahvid Best

Overrated Defense

1. Nate Allen
2. Trevard Lindley
3. Ras I-Dowling
4. Donovan Warren
5. Sean Lee

Underrated Offense

1. Mike Iupati
2. Naaman Roosevelt
3. Mitch Petrus
4. Anthony Dixon
5. Jarrett Brown

Underrated Defense

1. Syd'Quan Thompson
2. Willie Young
3. Micah Johnson
4. Torrell Troup
5. Brandon Sharpe
patrick robinson seems to be very overrated.

he has very poor tackling technique and discipline and seems to have a very inconsistent motor.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RA8z2j1qm50

syd quan thompson does look like the superior corner.

brasho
01-10-2010, 01:45 PM
I gotta agree with the original poster. Lamarr Houston play is huge. As an UT prospect he belongs in the same breath as the other guys in the top-tier (Suh, McCoy, Price). In the championship game, even on plays where he didn't make the tackle, he was often there or busting into the backfield. My biggest knock on him is he doesn't always play under control and that he often is too willing to try to run down the line on plays run the opposite direction as opposed to penetrating into the backfield and pursuing from the backside (this may be by design).

Another player that I put at or near the top UT prospecds is Tyson Alualu. Playing DE in Cal's 3-4 he didn't get the opportunity to show if he can hold up inside against the power running, but he is stout and fast with enough quickness to run the arch at LDE around RTs. He should project nicely to UT in a 4-3 or stay at DE in the 3-4. He will be a solid player for sure.

brasho
01-10-2010, 01:48 PM
I also like a trio of OLB/DE tweeners in Schofield, Sharpe, and Hughes. All three of these guys showed the ability to rush from either side with speed or power despite their smaller stature. I like these guys motors, especially Schofield and Sharpe.

brasho
01-10-2010, 02:10 PM
2. Pat Angerer : ILB : Iowa
-A tackling machine on one of the nation's top defenses. He's not the biggest guy, height-wise, but he's got sideline to sideline speed and can really hit. I'm thinking he'll be a better fit in a 3-4.

name isn't getting more attention considering his ability to make plays.



6. O’Brien Schofield : DE/OLB : Wisconsin
-He certainly has received more attention here as of late but I don't think it's up to the level that he deserves. He's a terror and knows how to get to the QB. A player that will thrive on the outside in a 3-4.

7. Taylor Price : WR : Ohio
-Not a name that gets a ton of attention, but he's got some intriguing measurables at 6-1, 210 lbs with 4.4 speed. He's production at Ohio may not compete with sopme others but I think that has alot to do with the poor quarterback play at Ohio rather than his abilities.

Overrated

1. Sergio Kindle : OLB : Texas
-I can understand some of the hype because he can get after the quarterback, but he runs too hot and cold for me to think that he's worth a Top 20 pick like some are talking about. I think he needs quite a bit of coaching because his playmaking has very little to do with technique and everything to do with straight line speed.

2. Russell Okung : OT : Oklahoma State
-Again, like Kindle, is the talent there? Of course it is, but I don't know if he's talented enough to be taken Top 5. I think a lack of elite prospects at the position allow him to move up boards higher than he normally would have in a different year. I believe he'll struggle with speed rushers in the NFL, but he'll still piece together a nice NFL career.

3. Terrence Cody : NT : Alabama
-Cody's hype is the one I struggle with thew most. He's a huge S.O.B. but he's not a penetrating NT like Raji was last year and his conditioning is a big question mark. Honestly I view him as nothing more than a bottom of the 2nd round type player with hopes that he can become something more than just a space eater.

4. Corey Wootton : DE : Northwestern
-Wootton had a nice junior year before suffering a knee injury, and since then he has looked like an average prospect. He didn't make any noise in the Big Ten this season where you had players like Graham, Schofield, Heyward, and Clayborn all making noise. I think his best fit is at LE in a 4-3, but I don't view him as anything more than a 3rd rounder and I think people get caught up in the measurables but at some point that has to translate to production on the field. ut I think



7. Jason Pierre-Paul : DE : South Florida
-An atheltic lineman who had a solid first season at South Florida, and I think his potential allows him to be a first round consideration, but I would not think about taking him with a top 10 selection.
stock.



I like Angerer, too, think his light-weight shorter frame needs to be covered up in a 4-3.


Schofield, like Sharpe, is a speedy stud wherever he lines up and will stick his nose with a spin or rip to the inside in a heartbeat.

Taylor Price is NOT underrated. Just the fact that he is rated makes him overrated. His measurables is off the chart, his production is not worthy of mention. I've watched Ohio far too many times for the sole reason to watch Price and everytime came away with the opinion that he is either not very good, or Ohio's QB play is among the worst in the nation (ok, that last part is probably true, but Price still failed to impress).

I think Kindle has been ok, he'll most likely standup in the NFL as he is fairly new to putting a hand on the ground and struggled a bit in college. I would have expected better production as well.


I think, like most Big 12 OL, the Okung is too much finesse and will struggle moreso with run blocking and bull rushes. The entire Big 12 is about throwing the ball and the OLine play there is weak. I left the Texas-Nebraska game thinking I had never seen a DT like Suh only to go back and realize that Suh struggled when he played against the bigger NFL-style OL's like Arizona's and Texas Tech's Brandon Carter. Texas' OG play was weak all season and even though Suh is still a great player, that matchup with Texas really highlighted his strengths.


Which leads me to my most overrated player in the country, Terrence Cody. After Suh, manhandled and overpowered Texas' weak OGs, Terrence Cody was just his usual average self. He gets little push on the pass rush and no penetration in the running game. We already know he won't put up stats as he protects the LBs, but aside from merely standing his ground he does little else. The add in the fact that after he gets paid he will likely put 50 llbs on and now we're talking about a guy that might be out of the league in a few years.


I think Wooten would fit well in a 3-4, he reminds me of Chris Canty.

I'm not sure about Pierre-Paul either, he flashes some but doesn't dominate. He should light up the combine from what I hear, Mike Mamula maybe?

nofalcons10
01-10-2010, 02:44 PM
i think that you are being too hard on cody.

vince wilfork only has 7.5 sacks in 6 yrs.

he had none in 2009.http://www.nfl.com/players/vincewilfork/profile?id=WIL059369

ted washington only had 603 tkls and 34 sacks in 17 yrs.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ted_Washington

he was selected 25th overall in 1991.

they used to call him "mt. washington"

Babylon
01-10-2010, 02:48 PM
i think that you are being too hard on cody.

vince wilfork only has 7.5 sacks in 6 yrs.

he had none in 2009.http://www.nfl.com/players/vincewilfork/profile?id=WIL059369

ted washington only had 603 tkls and 34 sacks in 17 yrs.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ted_Washington

he was selected 25th overall in 1991.

they used to call him "mt. washington"

I think Cody is overrated in the context of him being a 1st round pick. He's a rotational player with a borderline weight problem. After the 1st round i think he's not overrated.

brasho
01-10-2010, 03:20 PM
Cody weighs 370 right now and that is without a big NFL contract available for him to fill 6 fridges full of food. Supposedly, Saban made Cody lose 40-50 lbs before he would even let him on the field... so it isn't like Cody has grown to 370... he's struggling to maintain that weight.

And yes, Wilfork and Washington weren't big sack men, but they consistenly push/ed their men into backfields, forced double teams and proved to be disruptive. Cody is about as disruptive as a dead dog and has about as much lateral quickness and stamina as one, too. Is he worth a 1st in my opinion? Could be had late, if he goes to the right team and in the right situation. San Diego may need a younger NT to rotate in and maybe he goes there. Perhaps Pittsburgh in round 2... but hen again, this guy might eat his way out of the league in 3 years, might eat his way out of the gene pool in the next 10 years.

nofalcons10
01-10-2010, 03:26 PM
I think Cody is overrated in the context of him being a 1st round pick. He's a rotational player with a borderline weight problem. After the 1st round i think he's not overrated.

but washington and wilfork are rotational players too.

they were both taken in the 1st.

the saints signed norman hand to a $30 million dollar deal in 2000 and http://www.bestsportsphotos.com/images/t_26342_05.jpg

and just having him there in the middle allowed us to lead the league in sacks with 66.

41 sacks came directly from our defensive line.

RealityCheck
01-10-2010, 03:29 PM
I think Cody is overrated in the context of him being a 1st round pick. He's a rotational player with a borderline weight problem. After the 1st round i think he's not overrated.
Exactly. Cody's too big, making him slow. And speed is important in all positions in football. Unless he drops about 30 pounds and runs about 5 on the combine, then he's a 1st rounder.

nofalcons10
01-10-2010, 03:33 PM
Cody weighs 370 right now and that is without a big NFL contract available for him to fill 6 fridges full of food. Supposedly, Saban made Cody lose 40-50 lbs before he would even let him on the field... so it isn't like Cody has grown to 370... he's struggling to maintain that weight.

And yes, Wilfork and Washington weren't big sack men, but they consistenly push/ed their men into backfields, forced double teams and proved to be disruptive. Cody is about as disruptive as a dead dog and has about as much lateral quickness and stamina as one, too. Is he worth a 1st in my opinion? Could be had late, if he goes to the right team and in the right situation. San Diego may need a younger NT to rotate in and maybe he goes there. Perhaps Pittsburgh in round 2... but hen again, this guy might eat his way out of the league in 3 years, might eat his way out of the gene pool in the next 10 years.


it doesn't matter what ted washington's listed weight was. there is no one that can say that he ever weighed less than 400lbs in the nfl.

some old timers here may remember.

he was the largest human being i ever saw.

john madden once made the comment that he had legs coming from where his arms should be.

cody has the frame to carry that weigh as well.


sam adams or shaun rogers might get some interior push but man..... ted washington just stood there and occupied 2 rushing lanes by himself. he never had any disruptive attributes at all.

Dark Knight01
01-11-2010, 02:25 AM
Cody should be a 2nd Round pick in reality.

He has weight issues, and will be nothing more than a two down rotational player in the NFL unless he loses at least 15-20 pounds.

However, some team may reach for him within the top 15 though. Don't be surprised if the Raiders reach for him at #8. LOL

nofalcons10
01-11-2010, 02:54 AM
cody will not be a second round pick.


the pats traded richard seymour just because they knew that wilfork would be hard to resign this off-season.


wilfork took over for ted wasington in 2004.


washington played until he was 38 years old at 400lbs because his job was just to stand there and occupy space.


look...

ted
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6cA00YTjztU
http://www.eaglex.de/pics/walls/sapp_washington.jpg

terrence
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wNCdVEfoBEo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x_8YV45pQog&feature=related

OneToughGame
01-11-2010, 05:12 AM
Thread is lacking more Freddie Barnes.

http://www.bgsufalcons.com/images/2009/4/6/xsmall_Barnes,%20Freddie-a.jpg

GoHuskers
01-11-2010, 05:57 AM
Cody is not strong enough to play 3-4 NT, not to mention he's not even conditioned enough to play morethan 20% of the snaps in a real game.He's big but he doesn't really eat space, every game I've watched he gets sealed on a regular basis. I like his athleticism but unless he loses 40 pounds he won't sniff the field, and even then he's a major project to switch to a 4-3 DT, which is where his only potential lies.

DiG
01-11-2010, 07:53 AM
Underrated Offense

2. Naaman Roosevelt



Dude straight killed Pitt this year! His numbers overall decreased quite a bit from last year where he dominated all year but he did miss 2 games to finish his senior season. I think hes a 4th round guy right now who could move up into the 3rd with a good combine performance. He is really intriguing though. He runs smooth routes and shows good hands but he lacks breakaway speed. If he can run around 4.55 at the combine then his stock should stay about level and under a 4.5 it will likely rise. If he runs in the 4.6 range though itll likely drop into the 5-6 round range.

Scotty D
01-11-2010, 07:58 AM
Exactly. Cody's too big, making him slow. And speed is important in all positions in football. Unless he drops about 30 pounds and runs about 5 on the combine, then he's a 1st rounder.

Cody's 40 time will be irrelevant

DaBrowns41
01-11-2010, 08:51 AM
Very nice i'd add:

Overrated: (in terms of their draft stock)

Bruce Campbell, Maryland
Charles Brown, USC
Jermaine Gresham, OU
Colt McCoy, Texas
Jahvid Best, Cal

Underrated: (in terms of draft stock)
Taylor Mays
Toby Gerhart
Bryan Bulaga
Carlos Dunlap
Nate Allen

If anything Mays is overrated. This year proved how reliant on a great front 7 he was, despite the fact that his previous two seasons weren't that great. Everybody see's his measurables and thinks he's the next Sean Taylor, and that's clearly wrong.

Mays will make the first round based on potential, alone. But his production and lack of versatility make him a 2nd round talent based on what he did at USC.

RealityCheck
01-11-2010, 09:10 AM
Thread is lacking more Freddie Barnes.

http://www.bgsufalcons.com/images/2009/4/6/xsmall_Barnes,%20Freddie-a.jpg
Shame he wasn't invited to the combine.

scottyboy
01-11-2010, 09:27 AM
Anthony Davis over-rated? Fail.
He's only the best OT in this class.

I think Arthur Jones is getting under-rated and hell, even Best. The concussions are most likely why though.
I also think Jerry Hughes is under-rated, I just LOVE him.
And JPP is getting pretty over-rated now.

ThePudge
01-11-2010, 09:46 AM
Exactly. Cody's too big, making him slow. And speed is important in all positions in football. Unless he drops about 30 pounds and runs about 5 on the combine, then he's a 1st rounder.

40 times for these giants is irrelevant. Jeff Otah looked awful running a couple years back, ran much slower than expected, and his stock wasn't affected in the least. Cody's weight will be very important, and his interviews/medical examinations should be most telling and stock-influencing.

Those who look in the backfield aren't going to be shocked by what Cody does, but why he is a first round pick, is the steps that must be made to avoid him. Teams don't succeed running inside against Alabama. Florida's offense went from diverse and unstoppable to predictable and one-dimensional because of Cody. You didn't see how much Florida's offense works from the inside-out until they met the Tide in the SEC Title game. With Cody in the middle, and his buddy Rolando McClain lurking behind his massive shoulders, Florida's offense was diverted to the outside. With the kind of team speed Alabama has, they were able to succeed and Florida was unable to get it going offensively. This man changes game plans, you must know when he's on the field, and for his size, he's a very athletic man and has some upside. He may not have the quickest first step, the best technique when it comes to hand placement and leverage, but he's a 360+ tackle that can't be ignored and most often has to be double teamed.

I won't say he made Rolando McClain good, because obviously he's plenty good by himself (Top 10 good)... but you have to think logically, in the sense that much of his success came playing behind the space-eater Terrance "Mount" Cody. Boston College DT Ron Brace never affected game plans to the extent Cody has, and still was deemed worth of a second round pick. He certainly has his issues (weight control) but just like someone will want/need a Tebow, there's going to be a home for big Terrance Cody in the first round, perhaps as early as the middle of the round.

hburn
01-11-2010, 07:28 PM
Overrated
Eric Berry- terrible tackler, relies on the big hit only, how is he a top 5 prospect?

brasho
01-16-2010, 12:07 PM
Overrated
Eric Berry- terrible tackler, relies on the big hit only, how is he a top 5 prospect?

Overrated? Did you watch the VTech-Tenn bowl game where Tenn gave up 37 points to an average VT offense? It wasn't Berry's fault though, he was nowhere in sight.... I'm kidding... the whole point being that Berry completely disappeared in that game.

Babylon
01-16-2010, 12:15 PM
I think there are a few guys overrated as far as the 1st round goes:

Jermaine Gresham
Charles Brown
Chad Jones
Nate Allen
Toby Gerhart (you didnt hear that from me)

ThePudge
01-16-2010, 12:53 PM
You of ALLL people I would never expect to hear Gerhart & overrated in the same sentence..lol

Why is that?

SkyNet
01-16-2010, 01:10 PM
Why is that?

Babylon has been a huge supporter of Gerhart and I find it ironic that he lables him as overreated, if you had said that, it would have been par for the course, your not that high on him for some reason.

Babylon
01-16-2010, 01:23 PM
Babylon has been a huge supporter of Gerhart and I find it ironic that he lables him as overreated, if you had said that, it would have been par for the course, your not that high on him for some reason.

I was talking in the context of guys going in the first. Hey i could say i really like the guy and would take him in the top 10 but i think you have to be realistic. Secretly i'm hoping he goes to Seattle so i have a vested interest in saying he isnt a 1st round pick.

SkyNet
01-16-2010, 01:25 PM
If Seattle wants him, don't they have a mid 1st? They are going to have to take him there, which might be slightly high for him, but that is just my opinion, he won't last till the 2nd.

Babylon
01-16-2010, 01:28 PM
If Seattle wants him, don't they have a mid 1st? They are going to have to take him there, which might be slightly high for him, but that is just my opinion, he won't last till the 2nd.

They have the 6th and the 14th pick.

I think he's the workhorse back that Seattle can run the ball with and Pete has even stated he wants a running game to compliment Hasselbeck. They probably have too many glaring needs there to take a back in the middle or round 1 and frankly i have never been a fan of taking backs (with short shelf lives) in the first round.

SkyNet
01-16-2010, 01:30 PM
They have the 6th and the 14th pick.

I think he's the workhorse back that Seattle can run the ball with and Pete has even stated he wants a running game to compliment Hasselbeck. They probably have too many glaring needs there to take a back in the middle or round 1 and frankly i have never been a fan of taking backs (with short shelf lives) in the first round.

By the way Babylon, I'm the new "steve" as per Sniper, because I dared make a positive comment about Sam McGuffie in the College thread, this is getting insane.

Babylon
01-16-2010, 01:36 PM
By the way Babylon, I'm the new "steve" as per Sniper, because I dared make a positive comment about Sam McGuffie in the College thread, this is getting insane.



I try not to get into "he said she said".

mellojello
01-19-2010, 11:37 PM
Jahvid Best is not overrated - I can't wait to tell you doubters, "I told you so."

TACKLE
01-19-2010, 11:45 PM
Jermaine Gresham has become underrated. Coming into the season, he was discussion as one of the Top 5 players in this draft. Obviously the fact that he didn't play all year is a big reason for the perceived drop off, but if he checks out physically and looks just as explosive as he did before, I see no reason why he's not a Top 10 player in this draft. He has proven himself time and time again on the field. He possess everything you look for in a elite TE prospect. He has a very good feel for the position and one of the more polished and more complete TE's we've seen come into the draft in a while. I will be surprised if he doesn't end up being a top tier TE in the NFL.

zachsaints52
01-19-2010, 11:57 PM
I think Tebow is underrated. :)

FUNBUNCHER
01-20-2010, 12:35 AM
Javhid Best will have a Brian Westbrook type career, battling nagging injuries throughout his NFL tenure.

TheSlinger
01-20-2010, 02:04 AM
Jahvid Best is not overrated - I can't wait to tell you doubters, "I told you so."

I'd struggle to tell a guy who's had two concussions to go out there and get hit 300 times a year.

diesel
01-20-2010, 05:16 AM
Clausen is easily the most overrated.

PossibleCabbage
01-20-2010, 11:40 AM
Cody's 40 time will be irrelevant

But his 10 yard split will be very relevant. B.J. Raji only ran a 5.12 in the 40 at the combine last year, but his 10 yard split of 1.69 cemented him as a top 10 pick. When it comes to big NT types, you don't care about the 40 since you're never going to ask these guys to run 40 yards, but you do care about the 10 a lot.

Babylon
01-20-2010, 12:53 PM
Clausen is easily the most overrated.

In the context of the 1st pick absolutely. I do think he's as good as Mark Sanchez who went 5th so that may be a good area for him i would think.

TheTerminator
01-20-2010, 09:28 PM
Nate Allen underrated/Taylor Mays OVERRATED

HotRod35
01-21-2010, 02:29 PM
Agree that Kindle is overrated. He gets lost in the run game too much.

Underrated is C.J. Spiller. Even with Chris Johnson doing what he's done this season no one seems to appreciate that Spiller can/will do the exact same thing.

I am not sure what you by underrated, with regard to Spiller.
NFL Draft Scout has him rated the number one back and a first round draft pick. So do you mean on this board? Because I seen other places were his is rated number 1 RB, as well.

HotRod35
01-21-2010, 02:32 PM
With regard to Spiller, the thing I like about him is that if it turns out he is not your primary back, he can still make an impact on Kick and Punt returns. You could also line him up at wide receiver, and possibly in the Wildcat, in certain situations.

I do not like him as my number 1 running back but I think he has some real value. I also like his attitude. I think he is a class act, from what I can tell.

HotRod35
01-21-2010, 02:53 PM
Jahvid Best is not overrated - I can't wait to tell you doubters, "I told you so."

Jahvid Best, to me, is one of the more interesting guys in this draft. I think it is very difficult to say, what impact, if any, the Concussion will have on his playing career. I honestly don’t like the fact that he didn’t come back last season.

Tebow came back and he is a QB, but Best, who is a RB, did not? I think that means it was serious, and for a football player a significant injury. I had what was medically described as a moderate concussion as a result of an auto racing crash. I spent two days in the hospital and have no memory of it at all. If it had not a serious situation, it was fascinating to experience the brain healing itself.

The real question: does he have another and if so, what is the impact of that one? All the doctors told me they have a cumulative effect. If he had come back, I would say, OK, there is some negatives but not too much.

But I would be very cautious with regard to him. Is he really ready now? If he is there is still the potential for him to have another one. What if that happens in the next year to two? If it were up to me, it would drop him at least two, maybe three rounds, from where I would have had him, if the concussion had not happened, or he had come back, during the season.

HotRod35
01-21-2010, 10:44 PM
Regarding, the overrated/underrated question, I would like to address the underrated side of the equation first. It has been tempting me for some time, but I did not want to stir up a hornets nest. But I can wait not longer. Please, I would like to request that everyone view this with an open mind.

There is no question, that the most underrated player in the Draft is Toby Gerhart. No one put up better numbers, last year, against the same level of competition. In yards per game, obviously Ryan Matthews is the closest and actually had a slightly higher average. I really like Matthews as a pick, though I have seen very little of him, due to who he played for in college. He had an outstanding year, and next to Gerhart, he was probably the most consistent player, week in and week out. He is the real deal, as they say.

Two things though: 1) he got hurt and 2) his level of competition was not on the same level as Gerhart’s. Having said that, to his credit he did produce quite well when he got the opportunity to play top level competition.

Examples include: Boise State, 234 yards; Illinois 173 yards; he also got 145 yards on Cincinnati though he was held to just 3.8 YPC on 38 carries. That said, he didn’t get the opportunity that often Moreover, as it relates to being or not being underrated, a number of places have him rated ahead of Gerhart. Accordingly it is difficult to make the argument that he is underrated, by comparison.

Now back to Gerhart being the most underrated, of which there is truly no comparison. A careful review of the facts reveals there cannot be any doubt: he is grossly underrated.

I make the argument he is underrated in part, based on number of draft projections ranking him as a 3rd or 4th round draft choice, with the trend going in the negative direction. On draft site, has recently downgraded him, form the 3rd best back to the 8th. I happen to think he will go higher, based on the conclusion that it will take just one team, and staff, to realize his true potential and that he is being so grossly undervalued.

This may not happen, of course, in part, because a team that realizes he is undervalued, may nevertheless assume, they can simply pick him up in a later round, and on the cheap. If a team does this, though, I don’t think they truly realize his potential to be a special back. And what ever your conclusion about Gerhart’s potential in the NFL, it must recognized, that being a special back is exactly what he has been every step, and through every level of his career.

The second part, of my argument for him being the most underrated, has to do with why it is that he is being so undervalued. Simply put, Gerhart, out produced every single running back in the country last year; consequently, he out produced every single running back in this year’s draft. He ran for more yards and more touchdowns, than any running back in the nation, and scored more points, than any other player in any posisiton, period.

Yet several of the very players he out produced in multiple categories, are, nevertheless, considered better NFL prospects. Perhaps, more importantly, regarding his superior production is the fact that he did so, in most cases, by a wide margin. Often, it is not even close.

Take for example just two running backs, often forecasted in better light than Gerhart: Jonathan Dwyer, and Anthony Dixon.

Both of these backs, like Gerhart, are big running backs, which is good for comparison. Also, like Gerhart, both have had outstanding careers and very good seasons in 2009. The production numbers for both, however, pale in comparison to Gerhart’s monster season

For the record here are some numbers to chew on:

Gerhart- 343 carries for 1,871 yards; 27 touchdowns; 166 total points scored; 11, 100 yard plus games (85%); 0 games held for less than 4.2 YPC; led the nation in total rushing yards; led the nation, in TDs; led the nation in total points.

Dixon- 257 carries for 1,391 yards; 12 touchdowns; 72 total points scored; 8, 100 yard plus games (73%); 3 games held for less than 4.2 YPC; led the nation in nothing, that I am aware of, but did rank 15th in total rushing yards; 23rd in TDs; and 139th, in total points.

Dwyer- 235 carries for 1,395 yards; 15 touchdowns; 90 total points scored; 7, 100 yard plus games (50%); 5 games held for less than 4.2 YPC; led the nation in nothing, that I am aware of, but did rank 13th in total rushing yards; 23rd in TDs; and 59th, in total points.

As can be clearly seen, Gerhart produced significantly better numbers than both Dixon and Dwyer, who are more similar to one another, than either is to Gerhart. Again, for the most part we are not talking about small differences, where you can credibly argue, something other than demonstrable talent is the reason Gerhart is ahead, in this, or that category.

Indeed, Gerhart rushed for 34% and 35%, more yards, than Dixon, and Dwyer, respectively. On average, Gerhart produced twice as many touchdowns as both Dixon and Dwyer; who combined, produced 27 touchdowns, the same as Gerhart alone produced.

Gerhart was also significantly more consistent in his production, than either Dixon, or Dwyer, which I think argues for superiority. This consistency can be measured by games, over 100 yards rushing, and the number of games averaging at least 4.2 yards per carry.

Together, Dixon and Dwyer had 8 games where they ran for less than 100 yards, which equates to 32% of their total games; this compares to just two games for Gerhart, or 15%, of his total.

Gerhart, remarkably, produced a game long average of at least 4.2 YPC, for all 13 games. Dixon and Dwyer had a total of 25 games, and they were held to less than 4.2 YPC, on eight occasions, or 32% of the time. Think of this another way, this means that for nearly 1/3 of their games, Dwyer and Dixon, where held with yards per carry, below, the worst game for Gerhart.

Obviously, there is more room for debate, when considering other factors, in addition to the empirical evidence of production. That said, it can also be argued that Gerhart was the most important back to his team in the country. Certainly, it is not debatable that he was at the very upper end, of all running backs, with regard to his team’s success, and therefore his contributory value.

He especially came up big, in the big games. For examples: he rushed for 223 yards, against Oregon, 178 yards, against USC, 136 yards, against Cal, 205 yards, against Notre Dame, and 135 yards against a stout Oklahoma defense in the Sun Bowl. He scored 14 touchdowns and threw for a 15th TD, against these five teams. Think about it, Gerhart accounted for as many, or more, touchdowns, in these 5 games, alone, than either Dixon, or Dwyer did the entire season.

Gerhart needed just the last five games of the season, which were against, the toughest part of Stanford’s schedule, to produce as many touchdowns, as it took Dwyer all season. Dixon’s season long touchdown production was actually less than Gerhart’s for just the last five games.

This production came against nationally ranked Oregon, the best team in the PAC-10; the traditional power and nationally ranked USC; their bitter rival and ranked Cal; Notre Dame on national TV, and in the year end bowl game. Only, Notre Dame, of the bunch, did not go to a bowl game. It can be said, with conviction, and in fact, that Gerhart came up big in the big games.

The same can not be said, with respect to the other two running backs, at least not, to the same degree. In fact, with respect to Dwyer, it is difficult to say he played well at all in some of, if not the biggest, games of the season for Tech.

Consider, the astonishing facts that he was held to just 7 yards, 33 yards, and 49 yards rushing against, Miami, Georgia, and Iowa, respectively. He was held to a remarkably low 1.4 YPC, 2.4 YPC and 3.5 YPC, in these three games, respectively. These were all huge games, including a conference matchup, a heated rivalry game, and their bowl game. Not surprisingly, these are the three games Ga. Tech lost.

Accordingly, by any reasonable measure, based on the play on the field it is extremely difficult to reason that either Dixon or Dwyer are better backs. There is simply little credible evidence to suggest, based on actual play on the field, and any significant measure thereof, that Dixon, or Dwyer are better running backs. Indeed, the preponderance of evidence clearly indicates that Gerhart is not only better, but significantly so.

With respect to the generally considered “intangibles” like, decipline, good citizenship, and intelligence (they do give the Wonderlic test, at the combine for a reason), teamwork, dedication to working out etc, it is hard to argue that Gerhart isn’t one of the best prospects in the country at any position. There is certainly nothing to suggest, based on these qualities, that either of these two players, should be ranked in front of Gerhart.

For the record, when it comes to working out, dedication, and good citizenship, from everything that I have heard, or read, Dwyer possesses these traits to a high degree. But he certainly is not ahead of Gerhart in this respect.

With regard to Dixon; not so much; he was arrested and suspended for one game this year. There have also been questions regarding his dedication to working out.

Thus, when it comes to ranking Dixon and Dwyer in front of Gerhart, there is little, if any basis to do so; clearly not, if based on the items discussed above.

All three are roughly the same size, although Dwyer is a little shorter, and carries the same weight. Gerhart does seem to carry his weight better than Dixon, as the latter tends to appear a little pudgy around the waist, but it is hard to tell.

So, since Gerhart, has been more successful in actual production on the field and at least as attractive, based on the intangibles off the field, what gives? Well, one is left with a general feeling, of a number of people, that both of these running backs, for some reason, have greater potential.

This seems to be based, almost entirely, on the “feelings” of most of those ranking Gerhart behind, that he lacks the athleticism of either Dixon or Dwyer. I write “feelings” as I find very little in the way of empirical evidence suggesting that it can be reasoned, to an intellectual conclusion, that Dwyer, but especially Dixon have superior athletic qualities. Accordingly and in light of the mountain of evidence to the contrary, I find little concrete basis that Dixon, or Dwyer, have greater potential.

That is not to say that it is a forgone conclusion that Gerhart will have better NFL career than either player. Rather there is a paucity of fact to suggest, based on what we do know, that Garhart has less potential.

Regarding actual facts, and actual careers, we do know that Gerhart was a superior running back in high school, when compared to either Dixon, or Dwyer, based on productivity. We also know that Gerhart was grossly underrated, based on his superior career, when compared to both Dixon and Dwyer, when they all came out of high school. Gerhart was underrated based on the empirical evidence of production but also, on a number of tests designed to measure, speed, quickness, explosiveness, strength and over all athleticism.

This is especially true of Dixon’s measurements of athleticism, when compared to those for Gerhart. In fact, in measurements of athleticism, Gerhart had better numbers in every single category for which I have the available data. This includes, among others, the 40 yard dash, 4.51, to 4.66; and the Vertical Leap, 38” to 33”, for Gerhart and Dixon, respectively.

With respect to comparing Dwyer, in the mix, I have less reliable information. For example, Rivals has him listed with a better forty of 4.4, whereas Scout has him listed with a slower time of 4.59. The only vertical I could find was 31”, which is significantly inferior to Gerhart’s, is listed in Rivals..

Unlike Gerhart, and Dixon, who participated in independent testing, I could find no verification for Dwyer’s numbers. One source, for today, has the following times: 4.55, 4.60 and 4.48, for Gerhart, Dixon, and Dwyer, and I don’t have a big problem with those.

The bottom line is that a number of “experts” for similar reasons as today ignored the empirical evidence and undervalued Gerhart. This is especially true when taken in comparison to Dixon and Dwyer. The latter two, were rated as 4 star prospects, at running back, and Gerhart was rated as a 3- Star prospect at fullback.

Again, Gerhart’s superior production, were ignored as were his comparable, or better testing numbers. Thus, he was undervalued and under recruited out of high school. But Gerhart, who had the better high school career, also had the better college career. Do we see a pattern here? I think so. I think the evidence, in fact, is overwhelming.

And this, my friends, brings us to the main reason that I argue that Gerhart is, without question, the most underrated player entering the draft. To be sure, he is not given enough credit for what he has accomplished on the field, which, as exhibited, is significantly superior, to at least two players ranked ahead of him. However, to an even greater degree Gerhart is not given his due, as an athlete overall.

Indeed, Toby Gerhart is the most underrated player in the draft because his elite level athleticism is so grossly underrated. Many, if not a clear majority of those pontificating on such matters, can not seem to come to terms with Gerhart the athlete.

Most importantly, they do not want to acknowledge that Gerhart, as an athlete, possesses elite level skills, and physical traits, which are manifested through an extraordinary combination, of speed, power and explosiveness.

On the surface, this appears inexplicable, as there are plenty of examples and reasons to conclude that he is an extraordinary athlete; and one possessing the very traits and skills, and type of athleticism generally consistent with top level running backs.

Indeed, that is exactly what he has been his entire career, dating back to, at least, his sophomore year in high school, when he exploded onto the football scene in southern California by rushing over 3,000 yards, in 5A competition.

Let that one roll around in your mind, for a minute: Three Thousand yards rushing as a sophomore in high school. I know high school production does not guarantee anything in college, much less the pros, but, that is a staggering example of the exceptional career of Toby Gerhart.

Moreover, if his unprecedented success on the field is not proof enough, and clearly it is not for many, his superior athleticism is clearly evident, when one considers the results of actual measurements and testing that has been done to, and with, Gerhart. To anyone who bothers to then review these measurements, which are designed to gage athleticism, the conclusion is self evident: Toby Gerhart is one outstanding athlete, and quite frankly, to that there really is little to honestly debate.

SenorGato
01-21-2010, 11:26 PM
So....is Gerhart the Shonn Greene of 2010?

ThePudge
01-21-2010, 11:32 PM
Moreover, if his unprecedented success on the field is not proof enough, and clearly it is not for many, his superior athleticism is clearly evident, when one considers the results of actual measurements and testing that has been done to, and with, Gerhart. To anyone who bothers to then review these measurements, which are designed to gage athleticism, the conclusion is self evident: Toby Gerhart is one outstanding athlete, and quite frankly, to that there really is little to honestly debate.

Huge post, and a very nicely written, well thought-out one. Still you failed to touch on the reasons that make me wonder if teams will see him it as an every-down, feature back (20-25 carries per game).

First, his running style, which tends to be upright and violent, isn't typical of the NFL. Personally, I don't see a consistently good burst from Gerhart, and it seems often as he struggles to maintain speed cutting. He's a powerful, physical runner who is no doubt a talented athlete, possessing terrific vision and exceptional balance. Still, I don't see that elite burst from him to be an elite slashing back at the next level and I question if he has a true second gear. He doesn't change his pad level consistently and will absorb a lot of contact from bigger, faster defenders at the next level. We don't know much about Gerhart as a receiver out of the backfield yet, as he was rarely used at Stanford, but it's just one more thing that will be closely analyzed going into the draft process.

Ultimately, I think Gerhart will be seen as one part of a two or three back scheme rather than a three-down feature back. I'm not sure teams view that as a first round priority, and I think Gerhart will be valued as a Mid Second-Early Third Round pick. I should note, I expect him to be picked on the higher end of that spectrum. NFL trends tend to point in that direction I believe, and I just don't think coaches are going to see this guy as an every down solution at RB at this point.

I'll say this, I'm keeping an open mind and hoping to see a good performance/report from Gerhart throughout the Senior Bowl Week. We'll get to see, up close and personal, Gerhart's burst and explosion against guys like Auburn's Ben Tate, Anthony Dixon, and Tennessee's Montario Hardesty. I'll also say, I expect Gerhart to shine at the Combine, as he's a well rounded athlete. The numbers that interest me most there are his 3-Cone, Long Shuttle, and yes, his 40 yard dash. He should shine in interviews, impress in workouts, and I expect he'll do well in most drills.

He's a guy I've watched plenty, beginning last year for the Cardinal and through his Heisman-worthy year in 2009. He was my pick for the Heisman trophy and was the MVP of college football this past year. Still, I don't think due to production, a good attitude, and a comparative advantage in YPC will make him a higher pick than Jonathan Dwyer and Anthony Dixon. Ultimately on draft day, I believe he'll go above those players but I wouldn't say it's crazy to think either could be a better NFL prospect than Toby Gerhart.

I recently typed up a little scouting report for Anthony Dixon, who you mentioned.

Anthony Dixon – RB – Mississippi State
6’1 - 235 - 4.57 est.
#4 RB - #50 Overall

-Anthony Dixon is a Senior RB prospect, from a major conference, with big-time production, and underrated physical tools. In four years as Mississippi State’s starting tailback, Dixon accumulated for almost 4,000 yards on the ground. He’s a big, strong, back who likes to finish his runs and likes to get the bulk of his yards between the tackles. Still, some people don’t notice the occasional speed, burst, and agility Dixon possesses as well as vision, and a bit of elusiveness in the open field. He’s a patient, north-south, cutback runner who always falls forward. He has great balance as a runner and some background as a receiver out of the backfield with 56 career receptions.

Dixon played at a high level of competition in the SEC for four years, and capped off an impressive career with a tremendous Senior season. At 6’1 235, he likely won’t be seen as a speed back in the NFL. Though Dixon has shown a knack for the big play, five runs of 40+ this year, his speed and burst will not be elite at the next level and compare to a Shonn Greene level. He’ll show spurts of surprising athleticism at times and plays his best football in the second half.I think Anthony Dixon projects as a Second-Third Round pick for a team looking to add a tough, north-south runner that can do a bit of everything. His NFL role most likely will be as a part of a two or three back rotation, though I think he’s a sleeper to become an every-down feature back at the next level.

Positives
o+ Production
o+ Size
o+ Balance
o+ Vision
o+ Experience
o+ Patience
o+ Doesn't lose much speed in/out of cuts
o+ Surprisingly nimble feet and elusiveness
o+ Does a bit of everything and has experience as a receiver

Negatives
o– Lack of elite NFL speed
o– Lacks elite acceleration
o– Wear and Tear questions?
o– Will often run high
o– Minor attitude/work ethic questions

For your information, I have Toby Gerhart ranked 5th, right behind Dixon in my Running Back rankings. On my Big Board I have Toby Gerhart 54th, and believe a team could easily take a shot as early as the Early 2nd. Personally, I don't see a complete, three-down player with the complete package (in terms of explosiveness and home-run speed). I expect Gerhart to be an excellent NFL player as part of a rotation at RB, perhaps the missing piece of the puzzle for a team. I think Gerhart would be a good fit in Kansas City, Cleveland, San Diego, and Seattle as well as ZBS scheme teams such as Philadelphia and Houston. Still, what keeps him away from a first round grade for me, is value and doubts about a full-time role at the next level. It's a bigger, faster, more athletic world up there in the NFL. Just my humble opinion.

ThePudge
01-21-2010, 11:34 PM
So....is Gerhart the Shonn Greene of 2010?

My bet is either Gerhart or Anthony Dixon of Mississippi State. Both have the ability to really do big things if they are put in the right situation like Greene.

HotRod35
01-22-2010, 12:33 AM
So....is Gerhart the Shonn Greene of 2010?

I think it depends on what you mean by being the "Shonn Geeen" of 2010. I think are a number of similarities between them, but there are some very different things as well. I do think he runs a lot like Gerhart, or vise, verse, especially when they are making contact with other players. But he is built more like Jonathan Dwyer, ie, shorter and more "squaty"

I do see a lot of comparison, with both of them being undervalued. Some the undervaluing are due to similar reasons, as I think there is a general doubt about their top end speed. I think, though, there were a lot more questions regarding Greene and off the field stuff; for that there is very little comparison between the two.

I think another question holding Greene back, was the "unevenness," to his college career, which is also not the case with Gerhart. Greene had just one really productive year, whereas, Gerhart broke the single season rushing record at Stanford in back to back years. So I think with Greene there was perhaps more of a concern as to whether or not he was a flash in the pan, especially when taken together with the other off the field personal, non-football related issue.

As a side note, regarding speed, I know the Big-10 is knocked for supposedly, being a more physical, less speed oriented league. So since I think there was concern regarding his speed, were his stats downgraded even more, with the assumption being there is even a bigger difference between the The Big-10 and the NFL, than say, the SEC and the NFL. I am not saying that is accurate, but could that been a thought process?

Greene, was clearly underrated though, as is Gerhart. As a side note to that, Greene, was rated a 2-Star prospect out of high school. To be fair though, he didn't have anywhere near the high school career as Gerhart, nor was it against the same level of competition.

HotRod35
01-22-2010, 01:02 AM
"Huge post, and a very nicely written, well thought-out one. Still you failed to touch on the reasons that make me wonder if teams will see him it as an every-down, feature back (20-25 carries per game)."

First, thanks for the comment. Regarding my failure, I did intend to get to that, but as you noticed It got pretty lengthy as it was.

"First, his running style, which tends to be upright and violent, isn't typical of the NFL."

I know a lot of people take shots at his "upright" running style, but if you watch the film he does an excellent job of lowering his pads at contact. He just doesn't run with that "lean" that so many other guys do today. I never hear it mentioned, but, though they are different in many other ways, it reminds me a lot of the way Eric Dickerson ran. Dickerson, ran with his head high, back straight and knees pumping.

It is more of that sort of "old school" running. I was playing high school and a little college ball, at that same time, and some coaches wanted you to run that way. For one thing DBs and other defenders, are wary of sticking their noses in there for fear of getting a knee to the chin. Don't forget Gerhart's dad, (I hate to admit this) was a power running back from the same era, so that may be the source of the style, or at least part of it.

I do think, though, this has more to do with style than function. By that I mean, if you look at Ingram, for example, he runs upright too, but he leans his head forward, so does Dwyer. Moreover, look at Gehart's feet and legs, when he runs, as compared to Ingram and Dwyer. Gerhart's knees are pumping and he is picking up his feet an laying them down, like I mentioned with Dickerson above. This looks looks different when compared to many of the other runners today. Many today seem to run with their feet not coming off the ground as much, by comparison. It is almost as though they are shuffling along, especially on long runs.

But after people started talking about this I went back and looked at clips, with focusing on his pads at contact. I found very few instances of him not being able to really lower his pads at contact. The big run against Notre Dame is a perfect example. He runs upright through the arm tackle of the blizing linebacker, as he knew there was going to be little contact.

Next the DB is in the middle of the hole and already "broken down" for the tackle, and Gerhart lowers his pads quite well, and blasts him right over on his back. He then spins lowers his pads agian and takes on the next guy who he just out moves.

If you can finds some old film of Dickerson, look at it, you might be surprised.

HotRod35
01-22-2010, 02:37 AM
"Still, I don't see that elite burst from him to be an elite slashing back at the next level and I question if he has a true second gear."

Pudge: I wish I had time to really address this issue regarding the lack of "elite" burst. I think there are numerous examples, which proves he does have an elite burst, if by burst you mean what I think.

Take a look at this Clip of Gerhart VS. USC. The first play is a good one:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2hWT82zPSzs

Watch Talyer Mays, who looks to be lined up to the left of center, and off the line, sort of in between where you would expect the RCB and the S. Also watch the DB or LB to the right of center, who rushes up as the ball is snapped.

It looks, like the play was designed to go left of C, but that is only a guess on my part. You can clearly see a pulling lineman, from the left, coming down, to the right to block for Gerhart, and he turns, toward the line, before the center.

It looks as if USC was planning for that very fact. I, say this based in part on where Mays is lined up, and by virtue of the fact that it appears they run some sort of stunt and they shoot a Defensive player in the gap. This appears to be right where TG is originally headed.

If you look closely you can see the top of the helmet of the USC payer in the gap. Gerhart sees this and make a huge plant with his left foot and changes, direction to the right. This happens so fast, that while Mays was cheating up the whole time after the ball is snapped, he is “sucked” in too deep, before he realized Toby has cut to the right. At this point, once he realizes, this it appears that Gerhart has he has gone further to the right, and much more quickly, than he anticipated.

Notice too where Mays is when TG’s is at the 10 yard line, after getting the ball from Luck (who incidentally looks like he is posing for a photo), who is to TG’s L. At this point there is plenty of time to react to Gerhart, especially if he were slow.

Now watch number 2something, he comes in and spins off the blocker right as TG is hitting the line of scrimmage. I think this guy is a CB but it is hard to tell with them stacking the box. Nevertheless, as TG crossed the line, he is free of his blocker, and TG is right there to his left. But TG hits the hole so damn fast he doesn’t even have a chance to lunge at him. If Gerhart lacked a burst, I am confident he could have at least made some kind of contact with him, even if TG wound up dragging him into the end zone.

Also, if he could have at least made some contact with TG, and slowed him down, Mays would have been right there for support and they may have stopped him. But if you watch, by the time he turns around, Gerhart is gone. He never even makes a try at him.

This looks like a really simple play with good blocking, which to some degree it is. Keep in mind though, that essentially this guy, and Mays, are unblocked and have time to make it to the ball with most runners. They don’t though, and Gerhart makes the play look easy with his, dare I say “elite” burst of speed, crossing the line.

Watch it focusing on the D player on the near side, and then watch it focusing on Mays. I think you will be amazed at how fast TG hits the whole. I mean all this one guy has to do is turn around, but TG has gone 4 or 5 yards in the time it takes him to do it. He is mostly turned around when TG is crossing the line, but by the time is turned all the way, TG is already at the 3 yard line or so and he never makes any kind of play for him.

Next, focus on Mays; when TG makes his plant to change the play and cut to his right, Mays is up to the 5 yard line. When TG hits the line Mays is turned and directly facing the near sideline. He has players to his immediate right, but otherwise, he is unmolested.

He has been caught a little out of position by TG’s cut and change of direction, but there is still plenty of time to make the play…….if Gerhart, were not so fast.

Try to stop the clip right as Gerhart’s left foot is coming down on the 5. If you can, it is an amazing shot. Mays has moved back to the 4, but his head is turned directly at Gerhart and it is clear he is moving in for the kill. Gerhart is looking right at Mays, who is unblocked. It’s Mano Mano time (sp?). Again Mays is on the 4 and Gerhart the 5, with Mays being maybe a yard to Gerhart’s left.

By all accounts, Mays is an elite Safety, with elite size and speed for that position. He is a two time All American, and projected 1st round draft choice. Freeze the play, where I said. And consider, if Mays has elite speed, and Gerhart does not, who is going to win? If what I just said were true, it would be Mays. Gerhart is on the 5, Mays has the angle. If this were a case of elite speed vs. no speed, there is plenty of time to make the tackle before Gerhart scores. But that is not what happens, indeed, far from it.

Next, stop when Gerhart’s right foot is hitting the 4, and see where Mays is. He is at the 3; now the only reason he is at the 3 is because he is moving backward, but why is Mays an elite Safety, with elite speed moving toward the goal line and not toward the runner? Because, he is reacting to Gerhart’s speed.

Otherwise his brain would have sent a signal to his legs to “charge” at the runner, and he would have already made contact with Gerhart, at the five, or the four at worst. He would not be moving toward the end zone he would be moving toward the runner. But because of Gerhart’s speed, he is reacting to Gerhart, and not the other way around.

If you can stop the clip, where I just said, look closely to where each is relative, to one another, and to the goal line. Notice, that Mays did not have time to “address” Gerhart at the 5, much less get his head in front of him at the 4. This, my friend, is all due to Gerhart’s speed, pure and simple. Look where they are now and notice, that while he has not being blocked, Mays, has not been able to cut him off. Nevertheless, they are now almost touching, and Gerhart is still 4 yards from the promise land.

Mays has plenty of time to make solid contact with an ordinary back. But what happens? Gerhart is by him so fast that all Mays can do is give him a love tap, on the rear, as he goes into the end zone.

I have looked at this play several times and it gets more impressive the more you look at it, in detail. If you keep stopping it, and look at the relative positions of Gehart, to the defenders, I think it is clear that if Gerhart did not have speed there would have been plenty of time to make a play on him. I think you will see, at least some proof, that you have underestimated Mr. Gerhat’s burst.

TitansCJftw
01-22-2010, 02:57 AM
chris johnson has an elite burst, felix jones has an elite burst, desean jackson has an elite burst, all with that 2nd gear that propels them away from nfl defenders(not gonna list all names) are you serious dude? gerhart has an elite burst? come on....

HotRod35
01-22-2010, 09:03 AM
chris johnson has an elite burst, felix jones has an elite burst, desean jackson has an elite burst, all with that 2nd gear that propels them away from nfl defenders(not gonna list all names) are you serious dude? gerhart has an elite burst? come on....

Well, "dude," all things relative.

I am not the one who started using the term, so it is not my definition. I am responding to the term, in context with it's application as applied to a 235 lb running back.

Do I think he can do all of the things that Chris Johnson can do, especially speed wise? No, of course not. I would not be looking for, much less expecting, the same skill set, from a 235 running back.

By the same token, I don't expect Chris Johnson to be able to do certain things that Toby Gehart can do, such as running the ball with the same degree of power. I think both possess speed and power, though clearly not in the same relative combination.

I hope you are not going to tell me that Johnson can run with the same elite power that Gerhart does.... I mean seriously "dude". Johnson, has elite power? Come on.

It is a fact that Toby Gerhart has an elite level COMBINATION of speed and power.

No "dude" I don't think Gerhart has the same type of "elite" speed as a Chris Johnson. But I am assuming, that is a given.

Again, I was responding to someone who was making the argument that Gerhart might not be considered and "every down" or featured back, with a primary reason that he lacked an "elite" burst.

Surely, "dude" you are are going to tell me that to be a successful running back in the NFL you have to have the speed of Chris Johnson. Seriously? Do you think Shonn Greene has the same speed as Chris Johnson, for example?


I was pointing out that Gthat has more speed and a better burst through the holes than he is given credit for, in general. I think the one play I outlined against USC, proves that. It is certainly more than adequate to be a successful "every down", featured running back in the NFL.

I am saying, that Gerhart has a combination of speed and power, regarding athleticism, that is on an elite level. That is not just my opinion, or a wish. It is a provable fact.

And because it can be proven, I think it is something that people should consider when evaluating him and his capabilities. That is all I am saying. After considering all his qualities, you may still think he is not "worthy" of consideration for some level of ability. And you are perfectly free to base his lack of worthiness, on what ever criteria you like, such as Chris Johnson's "elite" burst.

Just don't try to pretend that Toby Gerhart does not possess an extremely high level of athleticism, based on a very elite level combination of speed and power. That he does, is not conjecture, it is a fact, that has been proven. Seriously "dude"

ThePudge
01-22-2010, 10:52 AM
Just don't try to pretend that Toby Gerhart does not possess an extremely high level of athleticism, based on a very elite level combination of speed and power. That he does, is not conjecture, it is a fact, that has been proven. Seriously "dude"

He wasn't really attacking you, and in modern American culture on a board full of college students, it's not that odd that someone refers to you as "dude." I'm convinced you know everything Gerhart brings to the table. You're still not getting into the dirty areas very in depth. I'm assuming you have to think he'll be a Top 15-20 pick.

Now, you're video didn't come up, but I think I know what you're trying to post, the time he got the corner on USC. Call it stubborn, call it whatever you want, but I don't think that video shows an explosive burst, nor does it show a second gear from Toby. Taylor Mays over-pursued pretty badly initially and could very well have taken himself out of the play were the running back faster. After that he recovered, and it never looked as if he never reached top speed or was even looking to get there (see: After he pushed Gerhart out of bounds).

How has he proven his speed to be elite? It was above average in college, and is average for an NFL RB. You used Anthony Dixon and Jonathan Dwyer as two prospects with no business in front of Gerhart, so I'll use them in illustrating Toby Gerhart's restrictions.

+40 Yard Runs
Toby Gerhart - PAC-10/Stanford: 2 in 2009, 5 career
Anthony Dixon - SEC/Mississippi State: 5 in 2009, 9 career
Jonathan Dwyer - ACC/Georgia Tech: 5 in 2009, 16 career


Career numbers
Anthony Dixon - 910 car 3,994 yds 4.4 avg 42 Td; 449 yds 4 Td
Toby Gerhart - 671 car 3,522 yds 5.2 avg 43 Td; 295 yds Rec
Jonathan Dwyer - 516 car 3,226 6.3 avg 35 Td; 263 yds Rec 1 Td

As you can see, for a guy with excellent vision, balance, power, AND speed (you say), he sure doesn't make a whole lot of game-breaking plays. Dixon a player with similar speed, and Dwyer a player with similar size, each made more than twice the amount of 40+ runs that Toby Gerhart did during his 1800 yd 28 Td year. The reason, is a lack of top explosiveness or burst when he gets the ball, he struggles to accelerate after contact or after making his cuts. and I just don't think he has the second gear to actually pull away from NFL defenses, let alone most college defenses (only 2 in 2009.)

Based on that information, how can you say Gerhart has elite speed and assume we'll agree? He had average to above average speed for a college, major-conference, RB and that doesn't just translate to average-above avearge in the NFL. Rather, I think he's a guy with average speed at RB at the next level. That's fine, along with his power, vision, and balance it should allow him to enjoy a productive NFL career. Still, I don't think a guy with average speed, an average burst, and a lack of experience as a receiving option, is going to be viewed by NFL decision-makers as a three-down feature RB, and thus, not a first round pick in my mind.

HotRod35
01-22-2010, 10:56 AM
For those of you who believe Gerhart lacks the speed or burst to the hole to be successful in the NFL, do yourself a favor and watch this short clip, of Gerhart, running by numerous USC defenders:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2hWT82zPSzs


In addition to the play I discussed above there are a number of plays which clearly show Gerhart’s ability to hit the hole and to make plays with his speed, and not just power.

The one at the 14 mark is a great example. Gerhart breaks this for a huge 30 yard run or so, on a short and 3 play. There are two parts which clearly show Gerhart’s speed. Early in the run, as TG crosses the 47, the linebacker breaks free of his block. He is now turned and clearly looking right at Gerhart. They can’t be more than a yard apart, with the LB to the inside and about ˝ yard up field.

Gerhart has burst through the hole so quickly, the LB does not have a chance to make a play. Gerhart runs right by him. You can watch the LB turn complete up field and follows, throughout the play, but Gerhart is separating from him, all the way.

Next, watch Taylor Mays, the All American, projected 1st round draft pick. He makes the pay, by forcing Gerhart, with a little help out of bounds…..about 30 yards down field.
Watch the play and note Mays, where he is and how he reacts to Gerhart’s speed.

When TG crosses the 1st down marker, you can clearly see that Mays, has figured out the play and he knows Gerhart has the ball. At one point he is at about the 47. But notice when Gerhart is at the 47, Mays is now at the 49, and is joined by the RCB at the 50. Gerhart has beaten the LB and headed up field. Notice the positioning of Mays and the CB, they are turned and heading up field as well.

Ask yourself why they are positioning themselves this way. They are doing it because their brain is signaling the body, turn and head up field because otherwise, they don’t have the speed to cut Gerhart off. This is because of Gerhart’s speed. Remember Mays has been locked onto Gerhart for a while; he has not been blocked, and neither has the Corner, but they don’t the speed relative, to Gerhart to run across the field and cut him off.

As Gerhart hits the 50, the LB is at the 49, Mays at the 49, and the C at the 47. Next as Gerhart hits the 45, the LB is clearly out of the play and running straight up field in case TG were to cut back and make it pasts Mays. The Corner is at the 43 and Mays at the 44. Again we are going up field. If Gerhart did not have speed, they would have already cut him off.

As Gerhart crosses the 35, his body is passing Mays; the C is still running up field and not toward TG to provide support along with the sideline. The LB is now hopelessly 8 yards or so behind. Mays eventually runs him out of bounds, a bit behind him between the 25 and 30. The C never does get to him. It is clear that Mays and the C are exhibiting respect for Gerhart’s speed; just past the line of scrimmage they both turned an ran up field not toward Gerhart.

HotRod35
01-22-2010, 12:43 PM
"He wasn't really attacking you,"

Did I attack him? I thought it a bit condescending and was responding in kind, to get the point across. Trust me, I know 40 year old men who use that term, and when I hear it from them it sounds even worse. I apologize if that is out of line.

HotRod35
01-22-2010, 12:50 PM
"How has he proven his speed to be elite?"

Again, I am focused on his combination of speed, power, and explosiveness, which he as proven is of what I would consider elite level.

I assume you are familiar with the SPARQ rating system. Obviously, here, if it is brought up most would talk about it in terms of football. But they have them for Baseball and other sports as well. There are slight differences between Football and Baseball but enough similarities as well.

For those of you who don’t know what a SPARQ rating is consider the following quote:

“WHAT IS SPARQ? SPARQ stands for Speed, Power, Agility, Reaction and Quickness.

“The SPARQ Rating System is the SAT of athleticism. Created with the help of nationally-recognized trainers and coaches, the SPARQ Rating combines results of individual tests of speed, power, agility, reaction, and quickness into a single number representing an athlete's overall athleticism.”, Baseball America

From SPARQ.com:

“The SPARQ Rating is a powerful new tool for measuring overall athleticism.”

“In addition to skill, baseball is a game of speed, power, agility, reaction and quickness. To standout at any level, great baseball athletes possess blazing speed around the bases, explosive power at bat or on the mound, fluid agility in the field, cat-like reactions at the place and lightening quickness on defense.”

Note: For Baseball, there are four tests: 30 yard dash; the vertical jump; the agility shuffle; and the power ball throw.

“The 30-Yard Dash measures your acceleration from a standing start and your ability to transition to top speed - all in 3 to 5 seconds. In addition, a good 30-Yard Dash time also is a strong indicator of your ability to sprint to the play in the outfield. Acceleration and speed will often dictate the outcome of decisive game situations.”

Note: The same as the 40 in football, only shorter, and perhaps even more relevant than the 40 yard dash time.

“An outstanding vertical jump is the signature athletic attribute of the baseball player who typically displays blazing speed on the base path and in the outfield.”

“a key indicator of off the mark speed and overall explosiveness”

Note: the same as football, although it may be weighted differently for the formula

“The Agility Shuttle requires and measures your side-to-side quickness and agility. It mimics the demands of baseball - frequent, instantaneous changes in direction that occur at top speed. A good shuttle time shows you're equipped to elude a tag, avoid a collision or make a seemingly impossible grab.”

Note: Similar to the short shuttle in football

“The Rotational Power Ball Throw measures your rotational power and core strength, and it also reflects the command you have over your body and how well you are at transferring your power outward; through your arms, to the ball, and to the bat.”

Note: Similar to the same test for football.

Now, reviewing the quotes above is it clear that SPARQ ratings are designed to measure overall athleticism, and considers, speed, quickness, explosiveness, and power or strength.

Toby Gerhart was tested in 2005 at a SPARQ combine. According to this article from Rivals, http://ssbaseball.rivals.com/content.asp?CID=576603 to say he did well is quite an understatement.

Here are his test results:

Vertical: 37.6” (he weighed in the range of 220 when tested)
Shuttle: 4.12
30 yard Dash: 3.62
Power Ball: 61’

According to SQARQ here are the cut-offs to have scored in the 98th percentile for these tests:

Vertical: 32.8
Shuttle: 4.21
30 yard Dash: 3.68
Power Ball: 54’

As can be seen, Gerhart is well within the 98th percentile for every single event. For those of you scoring at home, this means of all the thousands of athletes tested, Gerhart is well within the top 2% for each event. His vertical is especially outstanding, given his weight and is significantly above the 2% cutoff.

Now as impressive as the above is, here is the really interesting fact: 92.85. That is Gerhart’s Baseball SQARQ rating. How good is it? Well, according the article linked above, which is from 2008, that is the highest baseball SPARQ rating ever posted.

Accordingly, through 2008 Gerhart recorded the highest score, ever, out of thousands and thousands of athletes tested for, “Speed, Power, Agility, Reaction and Quickness.”

Number one result, all time, for a score, “representing an athlete's overall athleticism,” according to Baseball America.

Accordingly, this is why I sate as fact, that Gerhart has an elite level combination of speed, power, quickness, and overall athleticism. I am not saying this guarantees Gerhart is going to be the greatest running back in the history of the NFL.

I do think this, along with his ability to start in two major sports in college, at the D1 level, along with all his records and accomplishments, proves that Toby Gerhart is truly an extremely gifted athlete.

I think it also proves he has an elite combination of speed, quickness, agility and power. In short the basic requirements, from an athletic standpoint, to be an NFL level running back.

People may still think he lacks all the tools necessary to be a running back in the NFL. But, to do so, while pretending that he lacks elite level athleticism, as many do, I think respectfully, is to be at odds with the facts and reality.

ThePudge
01-22-2010, 03:22 PM
But what about his lack of big play ability at the college level. That's what I want to talk about. He didn't make big plays. Explain to me why a RB with elite speed, quickness, agility, and power couldn't break more than two runs over 40 yards this season playing behind a very good OL. I know you've thought this all out and written it all out before, so now I want answer a bit more relevant to my posts. I'm still looking for a true response to the real dirty areas of my post.

I don't think you are wrong to have a high opinion of Gerhart, or to think he's an athlete in the 98th percentile, I mean the guy could play two sports professionally. Still, my post is a bit more cut and dry. I don't see Toby giving a team it's best chance to succeed if he's on the field for all three downs, and I don't think he'll be seen in that way by NFL decision makers. I think his lack of home run speed, his lack of big time acceleration, and his inability to make tacklers miss in the open field is going to relegate him to a system using 2 or 3 backs to get the most out of their running game. That's not a bad thing, and I expect Toby to be a good NFL player, but it's not worth a first round pick.

Babylon
01-22-2010, 04:04 PM
So....is Gerhart the Shonn Greene of 2010?

I think you can look to Greene for a comparison. He was an early 3rd round pick and Toby is bigger and faster (allegedly), probably ensuring he'll be at least a second.

HawkeyeFan
01-22-2010, 04:10 PM
Gerhart doesn't have the balance or near the footwork Greene has/had.

Babylon
01-22-2010, 04:22 PM
But what about his lack of big play ability at the college level. That's what I want to talk about. He didn't make big plays. Explain to me why a RB with elite speed, quickness, agility, and power couldn't break more than two runs over 40 yards this season playing behind a very good OL. I know you've thought this all out and written it all out before, so now I want answer a bit more relevant to my posts. I'm still looking for a true response to the real dirty areas of my post.

I don't think you are wrong to have a high opinion of Gerhart, or to think he's an athlete in the 98th percentile, I mean the guy could play two sports professionally. Still, my post is a bit more cut and dry. I don't see Toby giving a team it's best chance to succeed if he's on the field for all three downs, and I don't think he'll be seen in that way by NFL decision makers. I think his lack of home run speed, his lack of big time acceleration, and his inability to make tacklers miss in the open field is going to relegate him to a system using 2 or 3 backs to get the most out of their running game. That's not a bad thing, and I expect Toby to be a good NFL player, but it's not worth a first round pick.

50 carries over 10 YPC actually impresses me.

ThePudge
01-22-2010, 04:45 PM
50 carries over 10 YPC actually impresses me.

It impresses me too, but I'm looking at what may hold him back and there's very little statistical and video evidence to support Gerhart as a big play threat at the next level. If you can't make big plays, you can't make tacklers miss, and you're not a big receiving threat out of the option, then you're not going to be on the field for three downs series to series for an NFL team. To me, it's as simple as that. He's a guy that's got a chance to be a very good player at the next level, I just don't see him being viewed by NFL coaches as an every down feature back.

We'll see how he stacks up at the Senior Bowl.

wonderbredd24
01-22-2010, 05:09 PM
Overrated

2010 QB Class as a whole
Carlos Dunlap, DE Florida
Trent Williams, OT Oklahoma
Joe McKnight, RB USC

Underrated

Brandon Graham, DE Michigan
Brian Price, DT UCLA
Ben Tate, RB Auburn
Kurt Coleman, S Ohio State
Rian Geer, TE Colorado
Brandon Lang, DE Troy

FUNBUNCHER
01-22-2010, 05:26 PM
Gerhart doesn't have the balance or near the footwork Greene has/had.

Toby has excellent balance, (it's really hard to knock the guy off his pins), I dunno about his foot quickness, not top end speed, compared to Shonn, who's very underrated in this area.

HotRod35
01-22-2010, 05:40 PM
It impresses me too, but I'm looking at what may hold him back and there's very little statistical and video evidence to support Gerhart as a big play threat at the next level. If you can't make big plays, you can't make tacklers miss, and you're not a big receiving threat out of the option, then you're not going to be on the field for three downs series to series for an NFL team. To me, it's as simple as that. He's a guy that's got a chance to be a very good player at the next level, I just don't see him being viewed by NFL coaches as an every down feature back.

We'll see how he stacks up at the Senior Bowl.

With all due respect, I really don't think that how many runs over 40 yards is as important as you make out. I would rather have a guy or gets 5 to 20 yards on a very consistent basis, than a guy who does next to nothing for 20 or 30 plays and then breaks a big one.

Also, I am not sure of where you are getting your stats. I am not saying they are wrong, just that I would like to find out where they came from. Are they based on the longest run of the game, such that ESPN has?

More importantly, I am curious, as to why you picked 40 yard runs or longer. Why not 50? Why not 60? Why not 30? Why not 10?

The fact of the matter is, 40 yard runs are nice, and I am not saying it is not a feather in someone's cap when they make one. But they just don't happen that often to anyone. It's like saying I would rather have a guy who faster in the 100 than the 40. I would rather have the guy who is faster in the 40. It is nice to have 100 yard speed and if you break an 80 yard run it is real nice. But not if I ma giving up 5 first downs a game to get it.

If I said look, you can have the option of the following: A) a guy, who will never have a run over 50 yards, but he will never rush for less than 4 yards a carry; or B) you can have a guy who will get 3 yards or less 80% of the time, but he will get at least one run over 40 yards in 80% of his games; which would you pick? I would pick A every time.

I don't have the proof in front of me but if I am not mistaken Gerhart had more runs of over 10 yards than anyone in the nation. Truthfully, I would take guy with that stat all day long over one with a few runs more that were over 40 yards.

With respect to Toby Gerhart not being able to make guys miss, in the open field, I marvel when I hear this. It is simply not true. There is no basis for this claim. I can show you video clip after clip where guys are missing him all over the place. Often two or more on one play. Where is your proof that he never makes guys miss.

If you had bother to look at the link I gave above there are plenty on that one alone.

Here is another one with about a minute of actual play, and I counted at least 5 misses on a hand full of plays:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4-gIJea6J2c&feature=channel

brasho
01-23-2010, 09:15 AM
As far as RBs and speed are concerned. One of my fave backs from last season's draft had a big question mark with his speed. Shonn Greene and he's looked plenty fast this season. He was a 4.65-type guy but had a similiar hardnosed running style like Gerhart.

One poster compared Gerhart's running style to Dickerson... ok, maybe... I'm thinking more like Eddie George, who was a step and a half slower than Dickerson. Another upright runner without great speed that could lower the pads and strike like a cobra, Roger Craig.

Day One Pick
01-23-2010, 09:33 AM
I agree with you assesments for the most part.

I feel Taylor Price is overrated, not underrated. I've seen him play several times and he doesn't play anywhere near his supposed timed speed. He's also not a very refined receiver. I know nobody ranks him all that high, but I question why he's ranked at all. With his measurables, he should have dominated and he's didn't.

I also don't think Russell Okung should be considered overrated. Overall he's as good or better than any OT prospect since Long and Clady.

FUNBUNCHER
01-23-2010, 10:27 AM
As far as RBs and speed are concerned. One of my fave backs from last season's draft had a big question mark with his speed. Shonn Greene and he's looked plenty fast this season. He was a 4.65-type guy but had a similiar hardnosed running style like Gerhart.

One poster compared Gerhart's running style to Dickerson... ok, maybe... I'm thinking more like Eddie George, who was a step and a half slower than Dickerson. Another upright runner without great speed that could lower the pads and strike like a cobra, Roger Craig.

Had to rep you for this one, that's almost exactly who Gerhart runs like, Eddie George.
I bet they're almost identical in every measurable category except weight/height.
Gerhart = shorter Eddie George

ThePudge
01-23-2010, 11:17 AM
With all due respect, I really don't think that how many runs over 40 yards is as important as you make out. I would rather have a guy or gets 5 to 20 yards on a very consistent basis, than a guy who does next to nothing for 20 or 30 plays and then breaks a big one.

Also, I am not sure of where you are getting your stats. I am not saying they are wrong, just that I would like to find out where they came from. Are they based on the longest run of the game, such that ESPN has?

More importantly, I am curious, as to why you picked 40 yard runs or longer. Why not 50? Why not 60? Why not 30? Why not 10?

The ability to break the big run isn't the most important attribute a runner can bring to the table, but it can separate a starting back from a rotational back. I have serious doubts, with Gerhart as an every down feature back, due to a lack of home-run speed, a lack of "wiggle" (or elusiveness in the open field), and just average burst or acceleration.

Yes they were simple, easily obtained, longest run of the game statistics. I chose 40 yards over 10 and 30 yards for the sole fact that it's a much bigger play and requires more than 30. When researching big runs, typically 40 is a good place to set the bar. For typical home-run threats I'll actually have to go back and look harder (at play by plays.) It has nothing to do with the 40 yard dash, and everything to do with really breaking free of a defense. For a guy with a good OL, tons of opportunities, and as you say an elite combination of size/agility/speed, the facts show that Gerhart doesn't break many runs.

Now, you haven't been able to tell me why Gerhart hasn't broken those runs, you've made more positive excuses. He's below his peers there and you won't admit it even after I laid out facts and proof for you. I'm sorry you're just not going to find many here that find Gerhart on par with Steven Jackson, Cedric Benson, Adrian Peterson, Beanie Wells etc. as a prospect. From what you're telling me, Toby doesn't have any flaws.... so you'd think he'd have to be a Top 10 pick, hell, maybe fall down to 15 in the worst case scenario.

The only reason I didn't watch the prior youtube clip (the one against USC), was the fact that it didn't come up. I've seen them all before. I've seen the clip you showed me too, the game against Oregon. I think he makes one or two defenders miss in the open field by running the other way, as is the case at :13, and a defender over-pursues, taking a poor angle at :37. I hope that wasn't your main illustration of elusiveness, because I'm sorry, it doesn't work. He has flaws, there are holes in his game that his peers don't have. I've watched them all (I know you've watched one), so how is it that players 230+ Dixon and Dwyer, broke more than twice the 40+ runs that Gerhart did?

You do know that Gerhart has to be drafted against these guys, correct? It's just a theory, but perhaps if you watched these other players in action your opinion on Gerhart would kind of level out. There are some things he does better than his peers, there are some things he does worse. The task at hand, going into the draft season, will be determining which skill-set on and off the field works best for an NFL team.

I don't see enough NFL teams dedicated to a simple one-back ball control offense, which Gerhart would apparently fit best in. I think he'll be drafted, in the Mid Second-Early Third, to be a piece to a team's solution at the RB position. I think he'd be an elite addition in Kansas City, alongside Jamaal Charles, in Seattle, Cleveland, New England, and for ZBS teams such as Houston and Philadelphia.

RedVision
01-23-2010, 12:24 PM
We'll see how he stacks up at the Senior Bowl.

Is he even invited? didn't see him on scott's list.

Scotty D
01-23-2010, 10:59 PM
I tend to agree with HotRod here, but I'm not quite as high on him, need to see that 40 time confirmed with sub 4.55, but even if he runs 4.65 or so, for the type of runs he excels at, runs that require vision, patience, and brute strength, top end speed is of no importance. 40 time for Toby is going to be huge, if he drops a 4.45 or so, he is going Matt Jones at that point, mid to late first. At that size, 4.45 is pretty rare, so when they come along, they usually get gobbled up mid first at the latest.

lulz, you are entertaining

mellojello
01-31-2010, 03:26 PM
I think Tebow is underrated. :)He was a great college QB, but I think he's the most overrated guy in this draft. I'm intrigued to see how he does in the NFL, but I don't think he'll have a successful career in the NFL as a QB.

wonderbredd24
01-31-2010, 03:31 PM
Personally, I think Ciron Black is underrated. He's not a left tackle. He may not even be a right tackle, but he is a mauler in the running game and he knows how to block.

I think he'd be better off losing a little bit of weight and seeing if that helps his quickness, but I'd love to have him play on my line anytime.

gpngc
01-31-2010, 03:59 PM
Personally, I think Ciron Black is underrated. He's not a left tackle. He may not even be a right tackle, but he is a mauler in the running game and he knows how to block.

I think he'd be better off losing a little bit of weight and seeing if that helps his quickness, but I'd love to have him play on my line anytime.

Me too. He's a football player and a good kid. I'm not even sure he can't be a LT honestly.

descendency
01-31-2010, 04:44 PM
Sam Bradford is overrated. He's an injury risk in the worst way. I love him as a flag football QB but not in the NFL behind a bad line. He's a poor mans peyton Manning without the football IQ.

Colt McCoy has been overrated into the seventh round...

Brandon Graham is now competing with Suh for first overall...LOL.

Sam Young has played better football than some give him credit for.

Jimmy Clausen is the number one qB in a terrible class. But he's still a potential Drew Brees.

phlysac
01-31-2010, 04:58 PM
Sam Young has played better football than some give him credit for.

Especially in regards to his fumble recovering ability ;)

mellojello
03-01-2010, 04:46 PM
Blount is highly overrated at this point.