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Scotty D
01-12-2010, 06:08 PM
Free Agency
Kyle Vanden Bosch,DE - 4 years 20 million
Dunta Robinson,CB - 5 years 30 million
Nate Burleson,WR - 3 years 10 million
Larry Johnson,RB - 1 year

Trades
Ernie Sims, WLB + 3rd rounder to Tampa Bay for 2nd rounder (Chicago)

Draft
1) Gerald McCoy, DT - Oklahoma
2) Demaryius Thomas, WR - Georgia Tech
2) Maurkice Pouncy, OG/OC - Florida
4) Javier Arenas,CB - Arkansas
5) Brandon Minor, RB - Michigan
5) Kyle McCarthy, S - Notre Dame

Prowler
01-12-2010, 07:35 PM
Draft
1.(2) Gerald McCoy DT OK
2.(2) Jahvid Best RB Cal
3.(2) Javier Arenas CB Alabama
4.(2) Corey Wooten DE Northwestern
5.(2) Danario Alexander WR Missouri
5.(15) Myron Rolle S Florida St/Oxford
6.(2) John Jerry OG Ole Miss
7.(2) Erik Cook G/C/T New Mexico

Mel Kiper stated in a very recent article that Wooten's value is now around 4th-5th round which I would definitely be willing to give him a shot in that range. I don't know where Danario will go, but he does have bad knees. You can substitute him with about any other WR who falls to that spot.

DoWnThEfiElD
01-12-2010, 07:51 PM
Draft
1.(2) Gerald McCoy DT OK
2.(2) Jahvid Best RB Cal
3.(2) Javier Arenas CB Alabama
4.(2) Corey Wooten DE Northwestern
5.(2) Danario Alexander WR Missouri
5.(15) Myron Rolle S Florida St/Oxford
6.(2) John Jerry OG Ole Miss
7.(2) Erik Cook G/C/T New Mexico

Mel Kiper stated in a very recent article that Wooten's value is now around 4th-5th round which I would definitely be willing to give him a shot in that range. I don't know where Danario will go, but he does have bad knees. You can substitute him with about any other WR who falls to that spot.

I really think this. Even thought with our first pick you could interchange Berry, Suh and McCoy for all I care at this point. The only guy I'm not sold on is Arenas, but I could live with it.

Brodeur
01-12-2010, 08:00 PM
Trades
Ernie Sims, WLB + 3rd rounder to Tampa Bay for 2nd rounder (Chicago)


http://biobreak.files.wordpress.com/2009/10/facepalm.jpg

cotts1
01-12-2010, 08:22 PM
CB Marlin Jackson 4 years/20 million
DE Ray Edwards 5 years/25 million
LG Eugene Amano 3 years/8.5 million
WR Kevin Walter 4 years/15 million
RB Jerious Norwood 4 years/12 million


Trade Julian Peterson for 4th round pick


1. SS Eric Berry- At this point I think Rams take Suh, Lions stick to their board and take BPA.

2. DT Terrence Cody- I know some of you don't like Cody, but I think he's gonna be a good pro. With all these underclassmen he could fall out of the 1st.

3. CB Syd'Quan Thompson

4. CB Walter Thurmond

4. RB Anthony Dixon

5. DE CJ Wilson

5 (f/DEN). WR Shay Hodge

6. DT Torrell Troup

7. Our 7th went to Buffalo for Ko Simpson

Calvin & Kevin
01-12-2010, 10:11 PM
OK here's my homeriffic mock which will never happen but if you can't post this kind of dreaming s*** here then where can you post it am I right?

This mock depends on three medium-to-long shots coming through: One, that a new CBA is reached and free agency can continue unchecked. Two, that St. Louis decides on a QB at #1 instead of Suh (frankly, I think that Sam Bradford will resurface as a major factor for that #1 pick, but we'll see). Three, Suh shows out at the combine and establishes himself firmly above McCoy as the better choice at DT.

Free Agents:
CB Ellis Hobbs
LB Derrick Johnson
WR Braylon Edwards

Hobbs isn't going to beat out Sheldon Brown and Asante Samuel. He will go where a starting job is.
Johnson might want to get out of KC's 3-4 defense and back into a role he's used to, while the Lions are almost certainly going to lose Foote or Peterson or both.
Finally... Braylon. He just might break out from the Jets, and look at Detroit as a place where he can be at home and get his focus back.


Draft:
1. Trade #2 to Tampa for #3 and pick #42 (from Chicago) - Suh falling to #2 is a blessing for the Lions - now they can get Tampa to jump at him. With 5 picks in the top 99, Tampa can afford to pay the toll.

2. Trade pick #3 to Seattle for pick #6 and pick #38 - The new management team in Seattle will want a new QB to start with if they can get one. Carroll is too big of an ego to start out with ancient Hasselbeck and take 2-3 years to build a team. He will want his guy to work with. Since a QB was taken at #1, there's only one big-name prospect left and no way he will get past Washington, so Seattle makes their move.

1. (#6) - Gerald McCoy, DT
If things fall the way I'm predicting here, I see the first 5 picks as Bradford-Suh-Clausen-Okung-McClain (or Berry), so that means McCoy is still there at #6 for the Lions.
2. (#34) - Mike Iupati, G
I think G is ten times the need that T is for the Lions, and Iupati in between Backus and Raiola would fill a hole that's been there for 10 years.
2. (#39) - Brandon Graham, DE
I personally think Graham is a first-rounder by far, but I will go with Scott for the purposes of this mock and accept the premise that less-than-perfect numbers will push him just into the second round. Good for us.
2. (#43) - Jahvid Best, RB
Some mocks have Spiller falling into the second but even for this mock I can't be THAT much of a homer. Best is a good alternative, only negative about him is injuries but as far as talent goes he's got it all.
3. (#66) - Javier Arenas, CB
Excellent kick-return prospect, at 5'9" I don't believe he'll be a premium CB prospect but he does have cover skills and would have a good shot at nickel back.
4. (#97) - Myron Lewis, CB
The Lions could draft three or four CB's and still not have the position totally fixed. Arenas is a small CB so the Lions take a bigger one.
5. (#129) - Antonio Brown, WR
The Lions need more WR's but can't afford to use early picks on them. They have to pull some out of the late rounds.
5. (#140) - Montario Hardesty, RB
With Kevin Smith's injury concerns, taking another RB isn't out of the question at all and at this point, the Lions can go BPA.
6. (#161) - Brandon Carter, G
At this point, it's definitely Best Project Available, and maybe Carter's personality concerns could push him down this far. I know this, Stephen Peterman isn't so great that they don't need to look for someon who can do the job better.


Edit: oh wow I didn't even read Prowler's mock before I did this. Great minds and all that.

SINCE1978
01-13-2010, 08:55 AM
Wow ... just wow. Some folks are living in fantasy land! But I guess this is strictly for fun, we are not in the running for GM spots at this point so fantasize away. However, do not be disappointed when these football wishes (pipe dreams) are not granted. ;o) Calvin & Kevin If Mayhew could pull off an unheard of 2 first round trades with Seattle & Tampa Bay to acquire picks, PLUS lure in Derrick Johnson & Braylon Edwards in FA he would immedietly establish himself as an upper echelon GM and could be mayor of Detroit if he wanted! ;o) Again, wow ... McCoy, Iupati, Graham, Best, Arenas & M. Lewis!!!! That would be amazing. Pipe dream, but an amazing pull.

Here is my practical stab at a January mock for Detroit. I say "practical" b/c I will use only the picks we currently have & will not mention any major FA acquisitions or crazy trades since these are also highly unlikely.

Pick 2) N. Suh Dline, Huskers - Hulk. Nuff said ...

Pick 34) B. Graham, DE Mich - Beast. Slips only b/c he is considered "undersized" ... our gain suckas, he's got skills!

Pick 66) J. Asamoah, G Illini - Big. Fast. 3.8 GPA, with plenty of experience. Fills 10 year void at LG FINALLY. Pettigrew, Backus, Asamoah = 1,200 yd rusher in our next pick ...

Pick 98) A. Dixon, RB Miss St. - Big (235). Fast enough(4.6). 4 yr starter, who can block & catch ... would compliment A. Brown's break away speed.

Pick 130) W. Thurmond III, CB Ducks - He was on his was to being a top 3 CB then he had season ending knee surgery. I think he slips b/c of said injury but is worth the 5th rd risk. High reward potential here assuming he is 100%.

Pick 154) (thanks Denver) B. White, WR MSU - Finally we get a #2 to compliment CJ. Work ethic galore, like this fit.

Pick 162) C. Thomas, NT UNC - 6'3" 330 & agile. think BJ Raji's Ron Brace from last year. He has helped Marvin Austin become a top DT drawing the double.

Pick 194) C. Chancellor, CB Clemson - Experience & speed.

Basically I took big, fast guys. Captain Masticolli (Gosh, I have not brought ol' Rod up in a LONG time!) well he loved acquiring smaller, faster guys to play his ridiculous Tampa 2 "system". (get sideways in gaps, lower pad level, blah blah) That lead to 0-16 & a roster of small guys who lack NFL talent. I feel we need BIG, ORNERY fellas that show up to the ball in bad moods. Suh, Graham, Asamoah, Dixon, Thomas all fit that mold.

Build with beef! Build in the trenches!

Scotty D
01-13-2010, 11:05 AM
1. SS Eric Berry- At this point I think Rams take Suh, Lions stick to their board and take BPA.

2. DT Terrence Cody- I know some of you don't like Cody, but I think he's gonna be a good pro. With all these underclassmen he could fall out of the 1st.

3. CB Syd'Quan Thompson

4. CB Walter Thurmond

4. RB Anthony Dixon

5. DE CJ Wilson

5 (f/DEN). WR Shay Hodge

6. DT Torrell Troup

7. Our 7th went to Buffalo for Ko Simpson

I'm starting to come around to this type of draft. I really like Terrence Cody and his play reminds me when Shaun Rogers actually tried. If we can get one free agent on the Dline and one at the top of round 2 then we can be solid.

SINCE1978 - I really like your draft as well. I think it walks a fine line between best case scenario and being realistic, in a good way hahahaha.

tblain1
01-13-2010, 11:38 AM
CB Marlin Jackson 4 years/20 million
DE Ray Edwards 5 years/25 million
LG Eugene Amano 3 years/8.5 million
WR Kevin Walter 4 years/15 million
RB Jerious Norwood 4 years/12 million


Trade Julian Peterson for 4th round pick


1. SS Eric Berry- At this point I think Rams take Suh, Lions stick to their board and take BPA.

2. DT Terrence Cody- I know some of you don't like Cody, but I think he's gonna be a good pro. With all these underclassmen he could fall out of the 1st.

3. CB Syd'Quan Thompson

4. CB Walter Thurmond

4. RB Anthony Dixon

5. DE CJ Wilson

5 (f/DEN). WR Shay Hodge

6. DT Torrell Troup

7. Our 7th went to Buffalo for Ko Simpson

3 players in our seconrdary and no offensive lineman? Lets just put Stafford on IR now :)

I like Cody actually. I like my DT built like doughboys -- they can absorb the run better that way. Kinda like the 2001 Bears when they had Traylor and Washington. That was my kinda DT combo. Still prefer Suh at #2 if available, but now I'm thinking he might be gone.

I'm not holding my breath for FAs; thats assuming a lot of sought after FAs come here for less than they can get elsewhere and that our management is willing to pay. Not likely.

Also can we get a 4th for Peterson?? I dont even know if we could get a 7th for him considering his age and contract. If he is gone, its because we cut him.

SINCE1978
01-13-2010, 01:07 PM
You people are sick & twisted ...
I'm posting this here b/c it seems to be the thread people are reading right now. So, people read this please ... we are fans of the Detroit Lions! So when it comes to Free Agency & blockbuster trades stop it with this incessant, myopic drivel!!!
First off, free agency ... key word here is "free" people. Not free of costs, but free to choose. So put yourself in the cleats of an NFL free agent .. .what would you look for? Winning team that competes for playoff spots? Talent on the roster surrounding you? A stable coaching staff that has been establshed for a number of years? Maybe nice weather or a safe town to raise your family in? Detroit offers none of that & I find it preposterous that many of you feel we can lure top shelf players such as Reggie Bush, Derrick Johnson, Braylon Edwards, Glen Dorsey, Aaron Kampman or Marlin Jackson here! Really?
Detroit curently has very little to offer; with only a handful of playoff appearances this decade, a tendancy to change coaches/coordinaters with the changing of the seasons ... not to mention we tend to be cheap & in a recession based economy Michigan is one of the states with the darkest cloud hovering over it! So stop it that we will be in a position to acquire any of these players next year, or even in 2011...

What we have however is a rabid fan base hungry for a winner, a new complex waiting to be filled/fully enjoyed & a coach that seems to get it with a plan in place. I will not forget Schwartz saying in his first press conference "we have a plan to run the footbal & stop the run, without that you can not be successful in this league". They laid the ground works with getting several key pieces in draft #1 ... most importantly the sumptuous franchise QB. (fingers crossed) We build through the draft, we fill in with free agency & trade. We model organizations that have done this the blue collar way and in 3 years it is our team that is playing on wild card Saturday. Then, after we have regained some legitimite, league-wide credibility by sniffing the playoffs, then we can talk about going out and getting top shelf FA talent or maybe putting together a trade for "that one piece" (ie Favre) to take us to the next level. Until then we stick with the Schwartz, we stick with his plan and we draft young, hungry, talented (cheap) player makers & work hard & continue to follow these clowns until they can make us proud to be fans of them again.
Out -

Addict
01-13-2010, 01:32 PM
yeah I agree with Since on this one. Free Agency is great and all, but untill the Lions show they can win 8 games on their own, no free agent is gonna go to Detroit willingly, unless of course there is no other team interested.

Well maybe if it's between the Raiders, Rams and Lions, they'll come. But still. Every season it's the same thing: we dream about making a huge splash in FA and put our draft needs as a lower priority. Honestly, cap or no cap: don't expect many free agents to come.

In more draft-related subjects: let's say round three comes around and Dunlap is still available, what do we do?

Iamcanadian
01-13-2010, 01:51 PM
You people are sick & twisted ...
I'm posting this here b/c it seems to be the thread people are reading right now. So, people read this please ... we are fans of the Detroit Lions! So when it comes to Free Agency & blockbuster trades stop it with this incessant, myopic drivel!!!
First off, free agency ... key word here is "free" people. Not free of costs, but free to choose. So put yourself in the cleats of an NFL free agent .. .what would you look for? Winning team that competes for playoff spots? Talent on the roster surrounding you? A stable coaching staff that has been establshed for a number of years? Maybe nice weather or a safe town to raise your family in? Detroit offers none of that & I find it preposterous that many of you feel we can lure top shelf players such as Reggie Bush, Derrick Johnson, Braylon Edwards, Glen Dorsey, Aaron Kampman or Marlin Jackson here! Really?
Detroit curently has very little to offer; with only a handful of playoff appearances this decade, a tendancy to change coaches/coordinaters with the changing of the seasons ... not to mention we tend to be cheap & in a recession based economy Michigan is one of the states with the darkest cloud hovering over it! So stop it that we will be in a position to acquire any of these players next year, or even in 2011...

What we have however is a rabid fan base hungry for a winner, a new complex waiting to be filled/fully enjoyed & a coach that seems to get it with a plan in place. I will not forget Schwartz saying in his first press conference "we have a plan to run the footbal & stop the run, without that you can not be successful in this league". They laid the ground works with getting several key pieces in draft #1 ... most importantly the sumptuous franchise QB. (fingers crossed) We build through the draft, we fill in with free agency & trade. We model organizations that have done this the blue collar way and in 3 years it is our team that is playing on wild card Saturday. Then, after we have regained some legitimite, league-wide credibility by sniffing the playoffs, then we can talk about going out and getting top shelf FA talent or maybe putting together a trade for "that one piece" (ie Favre) to take us to the next level. Until then we stick with the Schwartz, we stick with his plan and we draft young, hungry, talented (cheap) player makers & work hard & continue to follow these clowns until they can make us proud to be fans of them again.
Out -

I completely agree that few big name FA's will be interested in coming to Detroit and even if they did, the results are not guaranteed. The Giants won the FA battle last year, signing numerous big name talent to help their defense. Did it work, a resounding NO.

It is particularly tough to get a solid FA to come to a weak team like Detroit. In the back of most FA's mind is that this is the last contract I will likely sign and believe me, all they are seeing is $$ signs to make up for all the years they have put their bodies through the professional grinder of football. If they sign with a weak team, you will likely have a player who won't give 100% and is just hanging around for the money.

The top teams will sign a FA because they also know that they will likely put out for one last shot at a SB, but some don't even care any longer.

So we aren't going out and signing a bunch of high paid FA's, more likely we sign one or 2 FA's who are more prospects than finished products. These types are still young and determined to earn a place in the game and will give you 100%. There is no quick fix in football. It takes a solid management team, solid scouting staff and a talented GM and HC.

We must continue to draft well year after year with minimal mistakes especially with our 1st and 2nd picks. We must pray that injuries don't hit our stars as they develop. That Schwartz turns out to be a great HC once he has the talent to win in this league. We will likely need 3 more years to become a serious contender and any attempt to speed up the process will likely send us tumbling backward. It is coming, just give it time and it will pay off.

Addict
01-13-2010, 01:53 PM
I think most of us agree, we need to gain momentum towards winning before using FA's.

Really Free Agency is only able to help your team if the team's already heading in the right direction or a consistent winner.

cotts1
01-13-2010, 02:18 PM
Mayhew has said he is looking to sign 4-6 free agents that are young and entering their prime. Do you guys think there are only 10 FA's for the whole league to sign or something? Do I need to list every player scheduled to be a FA this year for you guys to realize it's very possible for the Lions to sign some of these players? One thing the Lions will have a lot of is money. Looking like we'll have close to 50 million in cap room this off-season. The Lions want to win now! They arn't waiting till 3 years from now. This is a results based business, the days of building a dynasty from the ground up are over!!!!!

Addict
01-13-2010, 02:21 PM
Mayhew has said he is looking to sign 4-6 free agents that are young and entering their prime. Do you guys think there are only 10 FA's for the whole league to sign or something? Do I need to list every player scheduled to be a FA this year for you guys to realize it's very possible for the Lions to sign some of these players? One thing the Lions will have a lot of is money. Looking like we'll have close to 50 million in cap room this off-season. The Lions want to win now! They arn't waiting till 3 years from now. This is a results based business, the days of building a dynasty from the ground up are over!!!!!

the lions winning next season or the season after that is about as likely as me making sweet sweet love with Natalie Portman tomorrow.

And trust me, I'm not holding my breath.

cotts1
01-13-2010, 02:33 PM
3 players in our seconrdary and no offensive lineman? Lets just put Stafford on IR now :)

I like Cody actually. I like my DT built like doughboys -- they can absorb the run better that way. Kinda like the 2001 Bears when they had Traylor and Washington. That was my kinda DT combo. Still prefer Suh at #2 if available, but now I'm thinking he might be gone.

I'm not holding my breath for FAs; thats assuming a lot of sought after FAs come here for less than they can get elsewhere and that our management is willing to pay. Not likely.

Also can we get a 4th for Peterson?? I dont even know if we could get a 7th for him considering his age and contract. If he is gone, its because we cut him.

Well it was based off my prediction of us signing a FA LG. Schwartz likes Backus so it doesn't look like he's going anywhere, nor is Raiola. He also likes Peterman so it looks like he will be back. Cherilus had a bad year, but I doubt Schwartz is going to give up on him after one season. He was a 1st round pick after all. Therefore it looks like any O-lineman drafted this year would be a backup anyway. I just think this draft needs to be defense, defense, and more defense.

When people say "what no O-lineman"? I question whether they even really watched the Lions this year...The pass protection for Stafford really was not that bad. There were a couple bad games in there, but for the most part it wasn't to shabby. Both the plays Stafford got injured on were well after the play had broken down and was not the O-lines fault. We need a LG no question, but the rest of the line is good enough for now IMO. Lets fix the worst defense in the NFL, and we'll get back to the O-line next year.

cotts1
01-13-2010, 02:40 PM
the lions winning next season or the season after that is about as likely as me making sweet sweet love with Natalie Portman tomorrow.

And trust me, I'm not holding my breath.


Do you think people in Miami thought the Dolphins would go from 5-11 to 11-5? Remember, Matt Millen is no longer associated with this franchise......Mayhew and Schwartz know what they are doing.....The Lions can win 8 games next year with some good FA signings and a good draft.

Addict
01-13-2010, 02:46 PM
Do you think people in Miami thought the Dolphins would go from 5-11 to 11-5? Remember, Matt Millen is no longer associated with this franchise......Mayhew and Schwartz know what they are doing.....The Lions can win 8 games next year with some good FA signings and a good draft.

if the Lions win 8 next year they'll be back in the NFL basement the season after that. Progress is a slow process. Getting rid of Millen was a first step on the road to improvement, it was by no means a magic spell that cures all ails.

cotts1
01-13-2010, 02:57 PM
Of course it's not, but the NFL is truly a league of parity. Things can change dramatically from one season to another.

Scotty D
01-13-2010, 03:00 PM
Not to mention the fact that Stafford, Pettigrew, Delmas, Levy, Hill, Brown should only get better in their second seasons. Stafford threw some crippling INTs that I have to think he will avoid next season. Plus no Stan Kwan = 8-8

DoWnThEfiElD
01-13-2010, 03:04 PM
Our defense will be ranked in the bottom 1/4 of the league again, we are not going 8-8.

cotts1
01-13-2010, 03:12 PM
Our defense will be ranked in the bottom 1/4 of the league again, we are not going 8-8.

Not if we draft Berry, Cody, Thompson, and Thurmond and sign Edwards and Jackson!!!! Worst to FIRST!!!!!

DoWnThEfiElD
01-13-2010, 03:17 PM
I'll pass on Cody.

cotts1
01-13-2010, 03:26 PM
I'll pass on Cody.

Not sure why....all the guy does is make plays....

Addict
01-13-2010, 03:28 PM
Not if we draft Berry, Cody, Thompson, and Thurmond and sign Edwards and Jackson!!!! Worst to FIRST!!!!!

you're being sarcastic, right?

cotts1
01-13-2010, 03:32 PM
you're being sarcastic, right?

No I don't think they will be the #1 defense..... maybe somewhere around 10-15 though if they can stay healthy.

Addict
01-13-2010, 03:34 PM
No I don't think they will be the #1 defense..... maybe somewhere around 10-15 though if they can stay healthy.

with a bunch of rookies? In a division that includes the Vikings and the Packers?

SINCE1978
01-13-2010, 03:46 PM
In more draft-related subjects: let's say round three comes around and Dunlap is still available, what do we do?

Yes! Assuming Dunlap got information that he would be a top 20 pick to come out as a junior, maybe dropping to pick #66 would light the fire under is a$$ that would make him play every down and grown up. Maybe.

Do you think people in Miami thought the Dolphins would go from 5-11 to 11-5? Remember, Matt Millen is no longer associated with this franchise......Mayhew and Schwartz know what they are doing.....The Lions can win 8 games next year with some good FA signings and a good draft.

Actually yes I do cotts. The Dolphins went from 1-15 in 2007 (an anomaly by the way) to 11-5 in 2008, great 1 season turn around. But to proove my point that this is a bad comparison to the Lions chances let me throw this out. Bookend the Fins 2 seasons above with a 2006 of 9-7 under Saban & a 7-9 season this year under Sparano and your point has holes like swiss cheese. Clearly a bad example b/c this team had 1 awful year in the past 4 seasons, were 3 of those years they were in or near the playoffs. Detroit on the other hand, has had 1 decent year (2007 going 7-9) over the past decade! Do I have to list all the awful records?
Yes, Millen is gone & I agree that Schwartz/Mayhew may indeed "know what they are doing", but the rotted core of a roster from his 8 years of incompetence is still rampant! We drafted talent this year,yes ... kudos, great start. But should 6 or 7 rookies really start on a respectable professional sports franchise? No way.

I like your enthusiasm however, for winning now. We all want that in this forum, sometimes I think more than the front office!

cotts1
01-13-2010, 04:07 PM
Lol yea it was 1-15, dunno why i was thinking 5-11.....anyway, my point is things can change quick. The Phins were an exception not the rule, but with a good draft and FA signings I think we can be a 6-8 win team.

You can't really compare starting rookies in the NFL with the other sports due to the large difference in roster numbers and the number of injuries incurred throughout a NFL season. That said, 7 rookie starters is too many, but we won't have 7 rookies starting for us....maybe 3-4 though.

DoWnThEfiElD
01-13-2010, 04:14 PM
Not sure why....all the guy does is make plays....

We have a lot bigger needs than a 2 down defensive linemen in the second.

Addict
01-13-2010, 04:16 PM
Lol yea it was 1-15, dunno why i was thinking 5-11.....anyway, my point is things can change quick. The Phins were an exception not the rule, but with a good draft and FA signings I think we can be a 6-8 win team.

You can't really compare starting rookies in the NFL with the other sports due to the large difference in roster numbers and the number of injuries incurred throughout a NFL season. That said, 7 rookie starters is too many, but we won't have 7 rookies starting for us....maybe 3-4 though.

I suppose in a perfect world that could happen. But to be honest I'd rather build the lions slowly and make them contenders on a more durable level.

DoWnThEfiElD
01-13-2010, 04:55 PM
I made 3 scenarios based off who are 1st pick is.

No free agents yet, mainly because we have no idea what is happening with the CBA.

Scenario A:
1- N. Suh DT
2- J. Best RB
3- T. Lindley CB
4- M. Johnson LB
5- B. Deaderick DE

Scenario B:
1- E. Berry CB/S
2- G. Hardy DE
3- L. Houston DT/DE
4- S. Render G
5- J. James RB

Scenario C:
1- G. McCoy DT
2- M. Iupati G
3- J. Arenas CB
4- M. Wright S
5- D. Briscoe WR

Thats it for now, I wanted to do something a little different and at this point I would be happy with just about any of those scenarios. Also it is my own personal feeling that with any of these scenarios in the first two rounds you are getting one of the top two players at their position in the draft.

Brothgar
01-13-2010, 04:58 PM
I'm not going to fall folly to the pipe dream of FA. so here is what I see in the draft.

1. Suh else Okung - The one thing I've seen out of this FO is that it will take a #1 of the position if available. While yes Berry is the best available at his position I don't hink Ko Simpson is that bad at the SS position or at least not as bad as our starting UT, CBs, or LT. Yes, I did see what the OL Coach and OC said about Backus but I'm not buying it.

2. Kyle Wilson CB

3. George Selvie - Big pipe dream for me because I really like Selvie even more so than Brandon Grahm.

4. Mike Johnson OG Alabama - OGs usually drop like rocks unless they have aspirations of being an OT like in the case with Brandon Albert. Last year Duke Robinson everyone's top OG plumited to the 6th round. Max Jean Gillis dropped far as well when he came out.

5. Jacoby Ford WR - We need a new return threat and lets hope that Ford fills that gap.

6. Walter McFadden -I liked what I saw from him in the bowl game I don't even know if he will be here in the 6th

Scotty D
01-13-2010, 06:03 PM
Scenario C:
1- G. McCoy DT
2- M. Iupati G
3- J. Arenas CB
4- M. Wright S
5- D. Briscoe WR

Thats it for now, I wanted to do something a little different and at this point I would be happy with just about any of those scenarios. Also it is my own personal feeling that with any of these scenarios in the first two rounds you are getting one of the top two players at their position in the draft.

I like Scenario C the best. Arenas is a great player and I've heard good things about Briscoe.

broth your draft has some of my favorite prospects in this draft Kyle Wilson, Mike Johnson, and Jacoby Ford. Wilson and Ford would bring some speed to an overall slow team. I like the risk of Selvie in the third if he makes it there.

noondog
01-13-2010, 06:19 PM
I'll put my two cents in for whatever it's worth...

Two players of note that I think Detroit might have a reasonable shot at getting if they pay them enough:

Aaron Kampman - instant, not to mention huge, upgrade at DE. Hopefully he wants to go back to a 4-3 system with his hand in the dirt every down AND stay in the NFC North.

Dunta Robinson - Dude needs a change of scenery and Detroit needs to seriously upgrade at CB. He's young enough to grow with the core and can still be a playmaker.

The draft:

1. Suh / McCoy - Whoever we walk away with is going to give us some serious presence at the interior of the D-line with SLH. Tremendous upgrade either way at UT.

2. Donovon Warren - Likely an immediate starter who (hopefully) we can put across from Robinson. Suddenly, our secondary doesn't look too shabby at all.

3. Johnson / Asamoah - Either one of these guards would be an instant starter and help provide Stafford with added protection as well as help the O-line get a major push in the run game and open up some friggin holes.

4. Dexter McClester - I seriously doubt that he fall this far, but here's hoping...tremendous change-of-pace back who can catch out of the backfield and is a homerun threat.

5. Walter Thurmond III - Losing his entire senior year will hurt his stock big time, the question is just how far does he fall. If he can be had here, he would be a great addition to the team and give us some depth at CB.

5. Myron Rolle - Will he play football or continue growing his brain? If he goes for the former, he will be tremendous value here and look great paired with Delmas.

6. Me - Because I'm dope and would only take plays off to smoke a cig and post on here. Word.

SINCE1978
01-14-2010, 07:08 AM
I made 3 scenarios based off who are 1st pick is.

No free agents yet, mainly because we have no idea what is happening with the CBA.

Scenario A:
1- N. Suh DT
2- J. Best RB
3- T. Lindley CB
4- M. Johnson LB
5- B. Deaderick DE

Scenario B:
1- E. Berry CB/S
2- G. Hardy DE
3- L. Houston DT/DE
4- S. Render G
5- J. James RB

Scenario C:
1- G. McCoy DT
2- M. Iupati G
3- J. Arenas CB
4- M. Wright S
5- D. Briscoe WR

Thats it for now, I wanted to do something a little different and at this point I would be happy with just about any of those scenarios. Also it is my own personal feeling that with any of these scenarios in the first two rounds you are getting one of the top two players at their position in the draft.

Of your scenarios C is also my #1 pick ... all are in positions of need & quite possibly all 5 could step right in year 1 & start/contribute. Scenario A would be #2, but I would have selected an interior offensive lineman in place of Micah Johnson ILB in the 4th rd. (Shawn Lauvao G ASU?) Scenario B is #3 b/c I know nothing about RB James from Miami, but that's on me he could be amazing. Good work!

Iamcanadian
01-14-2010, 12:18 PM
I like Scenario C the best. Arenas is a great player and I've heard good things about Briscoe.

broth your draft has some of my favorite prospects in this draft Kyle Wilson, Mike Johnson, and Jacoby Ford. Wilson and Ford would bring some speed to an overall slow team. I like the risk of Selvie in the third if he makes it there.

Considering that Scenario C contains likely 2 first rounder and 2 second rounders, I'm not surprised that we all like it. Unfortunately, it is totally unrealistic. A and B are possible but C is just out there in left field.

Addict
01-14-2010, 12:20 PM
Considering that Scenario C contains likely 2 first rounder and 2 second rounders, I'm not surprised that we all like it. Unfortunately, it is totally unrealistic. A and B are possible but C is just out there in left field.

pretty much. But you never know ;) stranger things have happened.

tblain1
01-14-2010, 12:42 PM
You people are sick & twisted ...
I'm posting this here b/c it seems to be the thread people are reading right now. So, people read this please ... we are fans of the Detroit Lions! So when it comes to Free Agency & blockbuster trades stop it with this incessant, myopic drivel!!!
First off, free agency ... key word here is "free" people. Not free of costs, but free to choose. So put yourself in the cleats of an NFL free agent .. .what would you look for? Winning team that competes for playoff spots? Talent on the roster surrounding you? A stable coaching staff that has been establshed for a number of years? Maybe nice weather or a safe town to raise your family in? Detroit offers none of that & I find it preposterous that many of you feel we can lure top shelf players such as Reggie Bush, Derrick Johnson, Braylon Edwards, Glen Dorsey, Aaron Kampman or Marlin Jackson here! Really?


Agreed.

Plus some of these guys could be RFAs not UFAs depending on what happens with the CBA . From what I heard, the RFA number would be pushed from 4 to 6 years if no new agreement is met.
Ray Edwards is in his 4th year.
Reggie Bush is in his 4th year.

Scotty D
01-14-2010, 12:46 PM
Considering that Scenario C contains likely 2 first rounder and 2 second rounders, I'm not surprised that we all like it. Unfortunately, it is totally unrealistic. A and B are possible but C is just out there in left field.

I'd say there are more than 32 players that should get a first round grade this year.

Brothgar
01-14-2010, 12:59 PM
... I find it preposterous that many of you feel we can lure top shelf players such as Reggie Bush, Derrick Johnson, Braylon Edwards, Glen Dorsey, Aaron Kampman or Marlin Jackson here! Really?
Detroit curently has very little to offer; with only a handful of playoff appearances this decade, a tendancy to change coaches/coordinaters with the changing of the seasons ... not to mention we tend to be cheap & in a recession based economy Michigan is one of the states with the darkest cloud hovering over it! So stop it that we will be in a position to acquire any of these players next year, or even in 2011...

I will not forget Schwartz saying in his first press conference "we have a plan to run the footbal & stop the run, without that you can not be successful in this league".

1. Who the hell wants Reggie Bush and Braylon Edwards? Bush is sorely underachieving as a RB and Edwards drops more passes than Roy Williams ever did.

2. We changed head coaches every three years with records like ours that would be the league norm.

3. We are not cheap we just sign crappy players to big contracts. Ask Backus, Woody, and Redding how cheap we are.

4. Schwartz has also said this is becoming a passers league. So it seems like he is talking out both sides of his mouth. Not that it is a bad thing.

DoWnThEfiElD
01-14-2010, 01:04 PM
Considering that Scenario C contains likely 2 first rounder and 2 second rounders, I'm not surprised that we all like it. Unfortunately, it is totally unrealistic. A and B are possible but C is just out there in left field.

Major Wright is not going in the 2nd round. Remember we pick at the top of each round too, maybe Arenas doesn't make it out of the 2nd, but I don't see Wright being that much of a stretch. He is a 3-5 rounder at this point.

cotts1
01-14-2010, 02:01 PM
IMO Arenas, Wright, and Briscoe will all be gone by the end of round 2.

Addict
01-14-2010, 03:40 PM
IMO Arenas, Wright, and Briscoe will all be gone by the end of round 2.

there's always a few who fall, remember Alan Branch?

Brothgar
01-14-2010, 03:48 PM
I'll pass on Cody.

I dunno I think it would be really cool to have two guys who command a double team.

noondog
01-14-2010, 04:01 PM
I dunno I think it would be really cool to have two guys who command a double team.

If the Leos take Mount Cody, I'll break things. You don't think that Suh or McCoy will demand double teams?

Prowler
01-14-2010, 04:04 PM
it'll stop the run and maybe free some of our linebackers up

DoWnThEfiElD
01-14-2010, 04:05 PM
I dunno I think it would be really cool to have two guys who command a double team.

We have greater needs than a 2 down defensive linemen. If we want a DT there are two far superior prospects that we can target.

Brothgar
01-14-2010, 04:10 PM
If the Leos take Mount Cody, I'll break things. You don't think that Suh or McCoy will demand double teams?

Of course they will but they require a top 2 pick. I'm not saying I don't want Suh or McCoy I'm just saying I won't break things if they end up with him in the 2nd.


Berry or Okung / Cody

or

Suh or McCoy / Other guy who isn't a 1st round prospect for sake of arguement lets say Grahm.

cotts1
01-14-2010, 04:35 PM
We have greater needs than a 2 down defensive linemen. If we want a DT there are two far superior prospects that we can target.

Cody can be a 3 down lineman IMO. He gets as good a push up the middle as anyone and would significantly help the pass rush by collapsing the pocket from the middle. Yes he will have to get better conditioned, not a big deal. Did he tell you he refuses to get into better shape or something? I don't want McCoy, I just get this feeling he's gonna be a bust. Odds are one of them (Suh or McCoy) will fail in the NFL. Remember Jonathan Sullivan? Dewayne Robertson? William Joseph?

noondog
01-14-2010, 04:54 PM
First of all, saying that IF we take Suh or McCoy then we won't get a first round talent at the top of round 2 is presumptuous and assinine...you're basically saying that you know how the first will shake out. I mean, we got Delmas at the top of two last year...that worked out alright for us, didn't it?

Secondly, Mount Cody is a gap-stuffer, not one to chase the quarterback. You really want two NT's playing inside with no penetration? And yes, the push he needs to work on is away from the dinner table...he is WAY out of shape.

And as for McCoy busting...I mean, dude. The chances of Cody busting > the chances of McCoy busting by leaps and bounds.

ANYONE can bust or not live up to the hype...including Berry.

Brothgar
01-14-2010, 05:03 PM
First of all, saying that IF we take Suh or McCoy then we won't get a first round talent at the top of round 2 is presumptuous and assinine...you're basically saying that you know how the first will shake out. I mean, we got Delmas at the top of two last year...that worked out alright for us, didn't it?



Saying that if we take Suh or McCoy at 2 means we DEFINANTLY won't get a first round caliber talent at the top of round two is assinine BUT what I can say is DT is far far FAR and away the deepest position in this draft. DT goes 6-7 deep with high end talent where say the OT talent is maybe 2-3 players deep. So which would you rather have two holes filled with top talent or one?

SINCE1978
01-14-2010, 05:16 PM
Major Wright is not going in the 2nd round. Remember we pick at the top of each round too, maybe Arenas doesn't make it out of the 2nd, but I don't see Wright being that much of a stretch. He is a 3-5 rounder at this point.

I agree with DoWnThEfiEld regarding Major Wright's stock in the 3-5 range. Which surprises me that he decided to come out as a junior? This is as deep of a Safety class as I can remember ... Berry, Mays, E. Thomas, Allen, Stuckey, Asante, Chancellor imo are all higher rated & off the board before Wright. That would be a whole crap load of S taken in 2 rds but people have their opinions on players?!

We have greater needs than a 2 down defensive linemen. If we want a DT there are two far superior prospects that we can target.

I agree, no on Cody @ #34. Do some homework and get a 330 Cam Thomas in rd 5!

noondog
01-14-2010, 05:27 PM
Saying that if we take Suh or McCoy at 2 means we DEFINANTLY won't get a first round caliber talent at the top of round two is assinine BUT what I can say is DT is far far FAR and away the deepest position in this draft. DT goes 6-7 deep with high end talent where say the OT talent is maybe 2-3 players deep. So which would you rather have two holes filled with top talent or one?

Obviously two, but the notion that we can't fill a need with a top end talent in round two if we take Suh or McCoy in the first is erroneous. We have more needs than just DT and LT. DE, CB and G are a few of the more obvious positions that we could use an upgrade at. What if Brandon Spikes slips to us? Foote won't be around forever. My point is that the picture is much larger than just DT and LT.

Not to mention that passing on superior talent in the first to set yourself up for your second round pick is just...well, it sounds like something Millen would do.

SINCE1978
01-14-2010, 06:42 PM
I've seen Taylor Mays drop into several mock's 2nd rounds ... I don't think this is possible for he should shine at the combine with triangle numbers. Thoughts of him @ #34?

Prowler
01-14-2010, 06:53 PM
his flaws are all coachable. worst case scenario is that he makes a few lapses in coverage and gives up a couple deep touchdowns his first couple seasons then turns into a fine Pro Bowl player. That's not something too horrible compared with what we experianced this year.

Delmas seemed to hurt a WR or TE every other game(well knocked out for a series), Mays could hurt people during the weeks that Delmas doesn't. He's not good enough to be Sean Taylor but I think he has the talent to be that good. His skills don't come along often. He appears to be a bit laid back, but Delmas is intense and can get the best out of him. I'd say he'd definately be BPA.

Scotty D
01-14-2010, 07:10 PM
No safeties until the fourth!

Brodeur
01-14-2010, 07:17 PM
After all the Ernie Sims nonsense, you finally say something that makes sense.

WMD
01-14-2010, 08:43 PM
Uhhhhh... what about moving Ernie Sims to Safety? That'll work, right??

cotts1
01-14-2010, 09:05 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IcdJMpgyEWk

Go watch some of his highlights, this guy gets around pretty good for being 380lbs. Imagine what he could do if we get him down to 340-350.....I agree, he could end up being a bust, but we wouldn't be spending a top 5 pick on him (DT has one of the highest bust rates). There is some risk but very high reward if he pans out.

Let me clarify, I won't be upset if McCoy is picked (I obviously prefer Suh or Berry). If Schwartz and Mayhew feel he is the guy, then I trust their decision.

DoWnThEfiElD
01-14-2010, 09:09 PM
Cody can be a 3 down lineman IMO. He gets as good a push up the middle as anyone and would significantly help the pass rush by collapsing the pocket from the middle. Yes he will have to get better conditioned, not a big deal. Did he tell you he refuses to get into better shape or something? I don't want McCoy, I just get this feeling he's gonna be a bust. Odds are one of them (Suh or McCoy) will fail in the NFL. Remember Jonathan Sullivan? Dewayne Robertson? William Joseph?

Oh since you feel McCoy will be a bust I'm on board for a 2 down defensive linemen. Cody has just a big chance of being a bust as Suh or McCoy. So your argument is based off your personal opinion and thats all.

BTW I don't even think Cody played three downs at Alabama. Also our defense is terrible they give up long drives so you will be taking a guy that will not have much impact until the defense is better anyways because of his size/poor conditioning and him having to come off the field.

He may not be a bad player in the NFL but given our current state I don't see him really having that much value to us in comparison to other prospects. 2 or 3 years down the road, yah maybe, but now, no.

Iamcanadian
01-14-2010, 09:53 PM
I'd say there are more than 32 players that should get a first round grade this year.

In any normal draft year, there are likely 35 potential prospects for round 1. Only in very poor draft years do we find limited prospects .However from 25 on. it is more likely that they are solid 2nd rounders where somebody has to fill the void. There are almosat zero drafts that contain 32 actual 1st round talents. I don't think I've ever seen a draft where there wasn't significant drop off after pick 12 -14 and in some drafts it can be as low as 8.
I agree that this draft looks on paper to be pretty solid but many are kidding themselves if they think round 2 guys are real round 1 talents. There is just a tier from #25-35 where the 2nd round talent is significantly better than the rest of those who follow in round 2.

cotts1
01-14-2010, 10:09 PM
Oh since you feel McCoy will be a bust I'm on board for a 2 down defensive linemen. Cody has just a big chance of being a bust as Suh or McCoy. So your argument is based off your personal opinion and thats all.

BTW I don't even think Cody played three downs at Alabama. Also our defense is terrible they give up long drives so you will be taking a guy that will not have much impact until the defense is better anyways because of his size/poor conditioning and him having to come off the field.

He may not be a bad player in the NFL but given our current state I don't see him really having that much value to us in comparison to other prospects. 2 or 3 years down the road, yah maybe, but now, no.



Cody played 3 downs at Alabama, he also played some fullback....If you watched the NC game you would have seen him doing so. That said, I'm not completely sold on the guy either. He's just a potential option at this point. We'll see how he grades out at the combine and go from there.

SINCE1978
01-14-2010, 10:42 PM
No safeties until the fourth!
Which 4th rd safety prospects do you like Scotty D?
For instance, Johnson from Utah or McCarthy from Notre Dame? For some reason I think Kam Chancellor Va Tech will be slip (maybe run a slow 40) & drop to us in rd 4. I like his skills & size. your thoughts specifically?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IcdJMpgyEWk

Go watch some of his highlights, this guy gets around pretty good for being 380lbs. Imagine what he could do if we get him down to 340-350.....I agree, he could end up being a bust, but we wouldn't be spending a top 5 pick on him (DT has one of the highest bust rates). There is some risk but very high reward if he pans out.

Let me clarify, I won't be upset if McCoy is picked (I obviously prefer Suh or Berry). If Schwartz and Mayhew feel he is the guy, then I trust their decision.

We already have a 350 lb NT plug that is a decent athlete in Sammie Hill. Put a play maker like Suh next to him & a rising tide raises all ships. Both players elevate their production. Get a DE like Selvie in rd 3 and we are making match up problems for offensive lines with Avril, Suh, Hill, Selvie across our trenches. Plus look for Levy to make a jump in year 2 & either draft a FS or CB rookie starter to compliment Delmas and we are on our way. There are a few other monster NT's like Cam Thomas UNC & Kade Weston UGA that had productive careers & made Marvin Austin & Geno Atkins stars. Look for them in rd 5 if you insist on anther NT with Hill. I just think Cody gets the phat contract & then realizes how many Coney Island's are in Detroit & proceeds to balloon up over 4bills easy. ;o) Just say'n ...

StorminNorman
01-14-2010, 10:55 PM
1. Joe Haden CB
2. Kyle Wilson CB
3. CJ Williams DE
4. Mike Johnson OG
5. Riley Cooper WR
6. Myron Rolle SS
7. Michael Smith RB

woodnick
01-14-2010, 11:25 PM
Last year it was somewhat talked about that we could go potentially all offense, or all defense, or the more realistically offense/defense split; so in an attempt to waste some time I came up with my opinion of how each scenario could play itself out.

I. All Offense:
1) Russell Okung, LT, OK St
2) Jonathan Dwyer, RB, GT
3) Jon Asamoah, OG, Illinois
4) Blair White, WR, MSU
5) Nathan Overbay, TE, Eastern Washington
5) Kenny Alfred, C, Wash. St.
6) Kelton Tindal, WR, Newberry

II. All Defense:
1) Suh/McCoy, DT
2) Greg Hardy/Brandon Graham, DE
3) Kyle Wilson/Amari Spievey, CB
4) Kam Chancellor/Major Wright, FS
5) Pat Angerer/Josh Hull, MLB
5) Sherrick McManis/Walter Thurmond, CB
6) Cam Thomas/Jay Ross, DT

III. Mix:
1) Suh/McCoy, DT
2) Greg Hardy/Brandon Graham, DE
3) Jon Asamoah, OG, Ill.
4) Myron Lewis, CB, Vandy
5) Blair White, WR, MSU
5) Kurt Coleman, S, OSU
6) Joique Bell, RB, Wayne St.

cotts1
01-14-2010, 11:46 PM
Which 4th rd safety prospects do you like Scotty D?
For instance, Johnson from Utah or McCarthy from Notre Dame? For some reason I think Kam Chancellor Va Tech will be slip (maybe run a slow 40) & drop to us in rd 4. I like his skills & size. your thoughts specifically?



We already have a 350 lb NT plug that is a decent athlete in Sammie Hill. Put a play maker like Suh next to him & a rising tide raises all ships. Both players elevate their production. Get a DE like Selvie in rd 3 and we are making match up problems for offensive lines with Avril, Suh, Hill, Selvie across our trenches. Plus look for Levy to make a jump in year 2 & either draft a FS or CB rookie starter to compliment Delmas and we are on our way. There are a few other monster NT's like Cam Thomas UNC & Kade Weston UGA that had productive careers & made Marvin Austin & Geno Atkins stars. Look for them in rd 5 if you insist on anther NT with Hill. I just think Cody gets the phat contract & then realizes how many Coney Island's are in Detroit & proceeds to balloon up over 4bills easy. ;o) Just say'n ...


Having two monsters in the middle works for the Vikings. The push they give makes it so easy for Jared Allen and Ray Edwards. Sammie Hill is more like 330, not 350. I have no problem with drafting a Cam Thomas or Kade Weston. We obviously just disagree on draft strategy. You believe in building the trenches first and foremost... I believe in taking skill above all else. I believe you can build the trenches in the middle rounds.

Look at the Colts, they haven't selected a OL or DT in round 1 in over 10 years, yet they have one of the best O-lines and best D-lines in the NFL......

WMD
01-15-2010, 12:30 AM
Look at the Colts, they haven't selected a OL or DT in round 1 in over 10 years, yet they have one of the best O-lines and best D-lines in the NFL......
Well, as far as the OL.. Peyton Manning makes them look really good. A good/great QB will make everyone on the offense look better than they maybe are. Coaching helps, too. Also.. Bill Polian.

cotts1
01-15-2010, 01:38 AM
Well, as far as the OL.. Peyton Manning makes them look really good. A good/great QB will make everyone on the offense look better than they maybe are. Coaching helps, too. Also.. Bill Polian.

No question having a 4-time MVP at QB helps, But if you watch the Colts, they do an excellent job of protecting him. Very rarely does Peyton get touched.

noondog
01-15-2010, 08:38 AM
1. Joe Haden CB
2. Kyle Wilson CB
3. CJ Williams DE
4. Mike Johnson OG
5. Riley Cooper WR
6. Myron Rolle SS
7. Michael Smith RB

I would wig right out. Epic fail.

Scotty D
01-15-2010, 08:50 AM
Which 4th rd safety prospects do you like Scotty D?
For instance, Johnson from Utah or McCarthy from Notre Dame? For some reason I think Kam Chancellor Va Tech will be slip (maybe run a slow 40) & drop to us in rd 4. I like his skills & size. your thoughts specifically?



I really like all three of those guys. McCarthy is a pretty underrated playmaker. I was trying to think of the type of safety I want next to Delmas. A ballhawk?

II. All Defense:
1) Suh/McCoy, DT
2) Greg Hardy/Brandon Graham, DE
3) Kyle Wilson/Amari Spievey, CB
4) Kam Chancellor/Major Wright, FS
5) Pat Angerer/Josh Hull, MLB
5) Sherrick McManis/Walter Thurmond, CB
6) Cam Thomas/Jay Ross, DT


I'd really like this draft. At the top of round 2 I think Everson Griffin might slip as well. Kyle Wilson is a stud and a great returner.

noondog
01-15-2010, 08:54 AM
Cody played 3 downs at Alabama, he also played some fullback....If you watched the NC game you would have seen him doing so.

Qualify that. He plays fullback in goal line situations to open a Jenna Jameson size gaping hole for the running back. Let's not make it out like he's a two-way player and will get drafted on his offensive merits as well as his defensive merits.

DoWnThEfiElD
01-15-2010, 09:17 AM
Qualify that. He plays fullback in goal line situations to open a Jenna Jameson size gaping hole for the running back. Let's not make it out like he's a two-way player and will get drafted on his offensive merits as well as his defensive merits.

No he is trying to prove that he is more athletic than people think because he lined up at fullback ran three steps and ran into some undersized linebacker/defensive back.

Cotts you say we should get him down to 340-350 range and imagine what he could do. His size is his strength, he probably won't be the same player after losing 40 lbs. I just cannot justify the Lions of having the luxury of taking a player like Cody right now.

SINCE1978
01-15-2010, 09:22 AM
1. Joe Haden CB
2. Kyle Wilson CB
3. CJ Williams DE
4. Mike Johnson OG
5. Riley Cooper WR
6. Myron Rolle SS
7. Michael Smith RB

Ugghh ... Haden @ #2 then follow that up with another undersized CB. I would hate that draft. Do you mean CJ Wilson in rd 3? I don't know of a CJ Williams ... Not splitting hairs, just curious. I like Haden's skills if we were to trade up the board & get more picks and he was there at like 10 I would be cool with that but not @ #2 overall Norman. You like making my blood boil don't you?! HA! ;o)

Having two monsters in the middle works for the Vikings. The push they give makes it so easy for Jared Allen and Ray Edwards. Sammie Hill is more like 330, not 350. I have no problem with drafting a Cam Thomas or Kade Weston. We obviously just disagree on draft strategy. You believe in building the trenches first and foremost... I believe in taking skill above all else. I believe you can build the trenches in the middle rounds.

Look at the Colts, they haven't selected a OL or DT in round 1 in over 10 years, yet they have one of the best O-lines and best D-lines in the NFL......

Your strategy of drafting "skill" with high round picks has really been working good for Detroit the past decade. Shall I list the busts? Right now there are as many or more undrafted or late round picks @ RB & WR in this league as there are lineman. (For every Stafford a Romo .. for every Pettigrew a Gates .. for every K. Smith a R. Grant .. for every CJ a Donald Driver) I'm just say'n ...

Also, that is untrue about the Colts actually ... TE is a lineman so is DE. Clark (02) Freeney (03) both first round picks. Tony Ugoh was pick #42 (rd 2) in 07 which technically is not a 1st rounder, but a pretty high pick imo. In conclusion, ditto of what the others said about a 4x NFL MVP calling the shots back there, making the line look better than they are.

P-L
01-15-2010, 09:41 AM
Tony Ugoh was pick #42 (rd 2) in 07 which technically is not a 1st rounder, but a pretty high pick imo.
The Colts actually traded their first round pick the following year for the opportunity to draft Ugoh.

cotts1
01-15-2010, 10:24 AM
Ugghh ... Haden @ #2 then follow that up with another undersized CB. I would hate that draft. Do you mean CJ Wilson in rd 3? I don't know of a CJ Williams ... Not splitting hairs, just curious. I like Haden's skills if we were to trade up the board & get more picks and he was there at like 10 I would be cool with that but not @ #2 overall Norman. You like making my blood boil don't you?! HA! ;o)



Your strategy of drafting "skill" with high round picks has really been working good for Detroit the past decade. Shall I list the busts? Right now there are as many or more undrafted or late round picks @ RB & WR in this league as there are lineman. (For every Stafford a Romo .. for every Pettigrew a Gates .. for every K. Smith a R. Grant .. for every CJ a Donald Driver) I'm just say'n ...

Also, that is untrue about the Colts actually ... TE is a lineman so is DE. Clark (02) Freeney (03) both first round picks. Tony Ugoh was pick #42 (rd 2) in 07 which technically is not a 1st rounder, but a pretty high pick imo. In conclusion, ditto of what the others said about a 4x NFL MVP calling the shots back there, making the line look better than they are.

You think Matt Millen knows what skill is?????????? You act like I would have taken Charles Rogers, Mike Williams, Roy Williams, Kevin Jones, etc. I hated all those picks.....When I say skill, I mean playmaker, not a player who happens to play a skill position.

cotts1
01-15-2010, 10:31 AM
The Colts actually traded their first round pick the following year for the opportunity to draft Ugoh.

I'll give you that, even though he technically still was a 2nd round pick. The point is the Colts O-line does as good a job as anyone with mainly mid-round talent that they coach up. You CAN'T teach things like speed, agility, ball-hawking instincts (basically what Eric Berry brings to the table) but you CAN teach a big, strong, athletic guy proper footwork, blocking assignments and angles.

cotts1
01-15-2010, 10:36 AM
I really like all three of those guys. McCarthy is a pretty underrated playmaker. I was trying to think of the type of safety I want next to Delmas. A ballhawk?



I'd really like this draft. At the top of round 2 I think Everson Griffin might slip as well. Kyle Wilson is a stud and a great returner.

I would love Everson Griffin at 34...wouldn't mind Wilson in round 3 either.

noondog
01-15-2010, 10:49 AM
I'll give you that, even though he technically still was a 2nd round pick. The point is the Colts O-line does as good a job as anyone with mainly mid-round talent that they coach up. You CAN'T teach things like speed, agility, ball-hawking instincts (basically what Eric Berry brings to the table) but you CAN teach a big, strong, athletic guy proper footwork, blocking assignments and angles.

Dude, you need to hit the sig request thread and ask BoneKrusher to make you a sig that says "Eric Berry gives me a woody". And the pic can be of Berry laying some wood on an unfortunate victim.

SINCE1978
01-15-2010, 12:06 PM
You think Matt Millen knows what skill is?????????? You act like I would have taken Charles Rogers, Mike Williams, Roy Williams, Kevin Jones, etc. I hated all those picks.....When I say skill, I mean playmaker, not a player who happens to play a skill position.

Millen does not know how to spell skill. However this trend did not stop with Millen fella ... last draft we took QB, TE, (S) ,WR/KR! So with 3 of the first 4 picks we went (offensive) "skill" position players & according to your definition all 4 would qualify as skill guys since Delmas is a playmaker ...

My main point is that our Dline is void of athletic talent & our defense has been neglected for the most part the past decade with high end draft picks. You can be 295 or 330 & be skilled imho. I'm pretty sure you agree, with the playmaker comment above ... which is why I think the trend turns around this year! Either Suh/McCoy would bring "skill" to that position that say Landen Cohen is lacking. Or skill from say a drafted guy like Hughes/Griffen off the edge that a DeWayne White or Jason Hunter lacks. These said drafted players start winning one on one match ups up front we don't need highly drafted DB's trying to cover WR's for 6 seconds!

SINCE1978
01-15-2010, 12:16 PM
I'll give you that, even though he technically still was a 2nd round pick. The point is the Colts O-line does as good a job as anyone with mainly mid-round talent that they coach up. You CAN'T teach things like speed, agility, ball-hawking instincts (basically what Eric Berry brings to the table) but you CAN teach a big, strong, athletic guy proper footwork, blocking assignments and angles.

As for another top 40 pick on a Safety (especially at the #2 spot) seems foolish being that it would the 4th at that position in the past like 5 drafts (Bullocks, Alexander, Delmas, Berry) ?!?!
Argh, to me that is insanity. (doing the same thing over & over again expecting different results)
Something comparable would be like the Arizona Cardinals going out & drafting a RB with their 1st pick this year. Beanie Wells is establishing himself as of late, but every team needs a 1-2 punch at RB right ... so let's get Jahvid Best with our 1st round pick?! You may argue that 2 safties are on the field at the same time & RB's are not, but there are plenty of organizations that utilize 2 back sets, including Zona. (Hightower & Wells on field same time) That's a spoil of riches at 1 position, they may be able to afford it since they are a division champion but the Lion's have holes in needier places than S. I still think they have hope for Ko Simpson next to Delmas back there (Bullocks returns from injury as well) and maybe drafting a S in the 4th or 5th ... just my opinion though.

StorminNorman
01-15-2010, 12:31 PM
As for another top 40 pick on a Safety (especially at the #2 spot) seems foolish being that it would the 4th at that position in the past like 5 drafts (Bullocks, Alexander, Delmas, Berry) ?!?!
Argh, to me that is insanity. (doing the same thing over & over again expecting different results)
Something comparable would be like the Arizona Cardinals going out & drafting a RB with their 1st pick this year. Beanie Wells is establishing himself as of late, but every team needs a 1-2 punch at RB right ... so let's get Jahvid Best with our 1st round pick?! You may argue that 2 safties are on the field at the same time & RB's are not, but there are plenty of organizations that utilize 2 back sets, including Zona. (Hightower & Wells on field same time) That's a spoil of riches at 1 position, they may be able to afford it since they are a division champion but the Lion's have holes in needier places than S. I still think they have hope for Ko Simpson next to Delmas back there (Bullocks returns from injury as well) and maybe drafting a S in the 4th or 5th ... just my opinion though.

You are missing the far more accurate example: should the Lions have passed on the talent of Calvin Johnson because of Mike Williams and Charles Rodgers?

cotts1
01-15-2010, 12:52 PM
Millen does not know how to spell skill. However this trend did not stop with Millen fella ... last draft we took QB, TE, (S) ,WR/KR! So with 3 of the first 4 picks we went (offensive) "skill" position players & according to your definition all 4 would qualify as skill guys since Delmas is a playmaker ...

My main point is that our Dline is void of athletic talent & our defense has been neglected for the most part the past decade with high end draft picks. You can be 295 or 330 & be skilled imho. I'm pretty sure you agree, with the playmaker comment above ... which is why I think the trend turns around this year! Either Suh/McCoy would bring "skill" to that position that say Landen Cohen is lacking. Or skill from say a drafted guy like Hughes/Griffen off the edge that a DeWayne White or Jason Hunter lacks. These said drafted players start winning one on one match ups up front we don't need highly drafted DB's trying to cover WR's for 6 seconds!

Again you didn't understand what I said. I said I prefer taking skill, REGARDLESS of position. If I thought Suh was a better prospect than Berry, I would say we should draft Suh!!!!..... However, I don't think he is better.........

Again, you can find athletic DT's in round 2,3. You ain't gonna find an elite safety who can play CB outside the top 5.

cotts1
01-15-2010, 12:58 PM
Bullocks and Alexander should have no bearing on any future picks....they were horrible picks by a horrible GM.....they are no longer part of this team, completely irrelevant.

cotts1
01-15-2010, 01:04 PM
(Hightower & Wells on field same time) That's a spoil of riches at 1 position, they may be able to afford it since they are a division champion but the Lion's have holes in needier places than S. I still think they have hope for Ko Simpson next to Delmas back there (Bullocks returns from injury as well) and maybe drafting a S in the 4th or 5th ... just my opinion though.

The Lions had bigger needs than WR in 2007 when they drafted CJ. I guess they should have taken Gaines Adams, Amobi Akoye, or Jamaal Anderson huh? Those were bigger needs but even Matt Millen knew he couldn't pass on such an exceptional talent in Calvin Johnson.

Scotty D
01-15-2010, 01:05 PM
You are missing the far more accurate example: should the Lions have passed on the talent of Calvin Johnson because of Mike Williams and Charles Rodgers?

WR is different than S

Iamcanadian
01-15-2010, 01:05 PM
Again you didn't understand what I said. I said I prefer taking skill, REGARDLESS of position. If I thought Suh was a better prospect than Berry, I would say we should draft Suh!!!!..... However, I don't think he is better.........

Again, you can find athletic DT's in round 2,3. You ain't gonna find an elite safety who can play CB outside the top 5.

You do realize that only 1 Safety in the history of NFL football has been drafted in the top 5 so you arguement holds no water. Obviously you can find good Safeties later in the draft.

cotts1
01-15-2010, 01:07 PM
Dude, you need to hit the sig request thread and ask BoneKrusher to make you a sig that says "Eric Berry gives me a woody". And the pic can be of Berry laying some wood on an unfortunate victim.

Like I honestly will ask bonekrusher to make me a sig of Berry if we draft him.....

cotts1
01-15-2010, 01:09 PM
You do realize that only 1 Safety in the history of NFL football has been drafted in the top 5 so you arguement holds no water. Obviously you can find good Safeties later in the draft.

That's because none of those safeties could also play CB!!!!!! except the late great Sean T....

Iamcanadian
01-15-2010, 01:12 PM
The Lions had bigger needs than WR in 2007 when they drafted CJ. I guess they should have taken Gaines Adams, Amobi Akoye, or Jamaal Anderson huh? Those were bigger needs but even Matt Millen knew he couldn't pass on such an exceptional talent in Calvin Johnson.

Please, don't use Matt Millen as an example of a GM who knew what he was doing. They don't equate. I would have preferred Joe Thomas over Calvin Johnson. Last I looked, Thomas made the NFL All Pro team while I don't see Johnson's name on it.

cotts1
01-15-2010, 01:19 PM
Please, don't use Matt Millen as an example of a GM who knew what he was doing. They don't equate. I would have preferred Joe Thomas over Calvin Johnson. Last I looked, Thomas made the NFL All Pro team while I don't see Johnson's name on it.

Wow I mean are you trying to say Calvin Johnson is not one of the top 3 most talented WR's in the league? You can't compare Thomas to CJ....CJ has to rely on his QB to get him the ball. Joe Thomas just has to block the guy across from him. Tell me this....Who is more likely to win a game for you...Joe Thomas or Calvin Johnson?

DoWnThEfiElD
01-15-2010, 01:19 PM
I'm sure Berry will get a very fair look, Stafford and contest to how good he is.

This is really the first time I think we can't go wrong with 3 prospects.

noondog
01-15-2010, 01:19 PM
Again you didn't understand what I said. I said I prefer taking skill, REGARDLESS of position. If I thought Suh was a better prospect than Berry, I would say we should draft Suh!!!!..... However, I don't think he is better.........

Again, you can find athletic DT's in round 2,3. You ain't gonna find an elite safety who can play CB outside the top 5.

Suh and McCoy aren't athletic DT prospects, they're elite DT prospects.

You can find good safeties in rounds 2 and 3 as well.

The argument you make in favour of Berry can be made for Suh and McCoy as well...

Iamcanadian
01-15-2010, 01:20 PM
That's because none of those safeties could also play CB!!!!!! except the late great Sean T....

NFL teams don't draft players in the top 5 to have them try and switch positions. There are zero guarantees that Berry could even make the switch after playing his whole career at S for Tennessee. I also don't think Sean Taylor at 6'4", 235 lbs was in any way able to play CB either. He never played it in college or in the pros.
Now if Berry were a CB with great 4.30 speed and had played the position his whole career in college and had proven to be an All star at that position, then there is no doubt, he would be a top CB prospect and likely top 5 pick, however he played Safety and that is what he will play in the pros.

cotts1
01-15-2010, 01:31 PM
NFL teams don't draft players in the top 5 to have them try and switch positions. There are zero guarantees that Berry could even make the switch after playing his whole career at S for Tennessee. I also don't think Sean Taylor at 6'4", 235 lbs was in any way able to play CB either. He never played it in college or in the pros.
Now if Berry were a CB with great 4.30 speed and had played the position his whole career in college and had proven to be an All star at that position, then there is no doubt, he would be a top CB prospect and likely top 5 pick, however he played Safety and that is what he will play in the pros.

I meant except Sean Taylor, as in he didn't play CB, he was just a beast which is why he was top 5.

Berry would line up at CB at certain times throughout a game in college. He can play the position, it's not a question of that. He prefers to play safety, so that's where he plays. Monte Kiffin has been quoted as saying Berry is the best DB prospect he has EVER seen. He's said Berry could play any position in an NFL secondary at an elite level. Yes he is alittle bias, but do you think he's just making all this up or something? Monte was a great D-coordinator for a long time, he knows what he's talking about.

Players make position changes all the time...many college DE's switch to OLB. many college CB's switch to S? many college WR's switch to TE. Jason Peters played TE in college, he's now an all-star LT....go figure. Berry can play CB or S and if you don't think he can then I don't know what else to tell you man.....

Iamcanadian
01-15-2010, 01:37 PM
Wow I mean are you trying to say Calvin Johnson is not one of the top 3 most talented WR's in the league? You can't compare Thomas to CJ....CJ has to rely on his QB to get him the ball. Joe Thomas just has to block the guy across from him. Tell me this....Who is more likely to win a game for you...Joe Thomas or Calvin Johnson?

Here is the NFL All Pro team for this year and I see Joe Thomas on it but I don't see Calvin among the top 4 WR's in the NFL.

2009 All-Pro Team


FIRST TEAM

OFFENSE

Quarterback: Peyton Manning, Indianapolis.
Running Backs: Chris Johnson, Tennessee; Adrian Peterson, Minnesota.
Fullback: Leonard Weaver, Philadelphia.
Tight End: Dallas Clark, Indianapolis.
Wide Receivers: Andre Johnson, Houston; Wes Welker, New England.
Tackles: Ryan Clady, Denver; Joe Thomas, Cleveland.
Guards: Steve Hutchinson, Minnesota; Jahri Evans, New Orleans.
Center: Nick Mangold, New York Jets.
Placekicker: Nate Kaeding, San Diego.
Kick Returner: Joshua Cribbs, Cleveland.

DEFENSE

Ends: Jared Allen, Minnesota; Dwight Freeney, Indianapolis.
Tackles: Jay Ratliff, Dallas; Kevin Williams, Minnesota.
Outside Linebackers: Elvis Dumervil, Denver; DeMarcus Ware, Dallas.
Inside Linebacker: Patrick Willis, San Francisco; Ray Lewis, Baltimore.
Cornerbacks: Charles Woodson, Green Bay; Darrelle Revis, New York Jets.
Safeties: Darren Sharper, New Orleans; Adrian Wilson, Arizona.
Punter: Shane Lechler, Oakland.

SECOND TEAM

OFFENSE

Quarterback: Drew Brees, New Orleans.
Running Backs: Ray Rice, Baltimore; Steven Jackson, St. Louis.
Fullback: Le'Ron McClain, Baltimore.
Tight End: Antonio Gates, San Diego.
Wide Receivers: Reggie Wayne, Indianapolis; Larry Fitzgerald, Arizona.
Tackles: Michael Roos, Tennessee; Jake Long, Miami.
Guards: Logan Mankins, New England; Kris Dielman, San Diego.
Center: Andre Gurode, Dallas.
Placekicker: David Akers, Philadelphia.
Kick Returner: DeSean Jackson, Philadelphia.

DEFENSE

Ends: Trent Cole, Philadelphia; Julius Peppers, Carolina.
Tackles: Darnell Dockett, Arizona; Haloti Ngata, Baltimore.
Outside Linebackers: Brian Cushing, Houston; LaMarr Woodley, Pittsburgh.
Inside Linebackers: David Harris, New York Jets; Jon Beason, Carolina.
Cornerbacks: Nnamdi Asomugha, Oakland; Asante Samuel, Philadelphia, and Leon Hall, Cincinnati (tie).
Safeties: Brian Dawkins, Denver; Ed Reed, Baltimore, and Nick Collins, Green Bay (tie).
Punter: Andy Lee, San Francisco, and Donnie Jones, St. Louis (tie).

Joe Thomas is far more likely to win games for his team than Johnson. Without a LT, you QB cannot get the ball to Johnson. In fact, WR's are considered a secondary position on a football team for that very reason, because they have to depend on their QB. NFL GM's will take a potential All Pro LT way before they would draft a WR.
How old are you because an awful lot of your ideas seem rather immature to me. I mean you claim Johnson can win games on his own when all he's done so far is help win 2 out of 32 games in his career. Makes your arguement pointless. Cleveland is pretty bad also with no QB and certainly no WR's and yett they have won more games than us so Thomas must be doing something to contribute.

cotts1
01-15-2010, 01:40 PM
Suh and McCoy aren't athletic DT prospects, they're elite DT prospects.

You can find good safeties in rounds 2 and 3 as well.

The argument you make in favour of Berry can be made for Suh and McCoy as well...

Your right they are elite DT's, I still think Berry is a better prospect... I don't let position dictate who to draft, skill dictates that.

If you guys think Berry is such a waste then how come he is the consensus number 1 player among many draft analysts?

cotts1
01-15-2010, 01:48 PM
Here is the NFL All Pro team for this year and I see Joe Thomas on it but I don't see Calvin among the top 4 WR's in the NFL.

2009 All-Pro Team


FIRST TEAM

OFFENSE

Quarterback: Peyton Manning, Indianapolis.
Running Backs: Chris Johnson, Tennessee; Adrian Peterson, Minnesota.
Fullback: Leonard Weaver, Philadelphia.
Tight End: Dallas Clark, Indianapolis.
Wide Receivers: Andre Johnson, Houston; Wes Welker, New England.
Tackles: Ryan Clady, Denver; Joe Thomas, Cleveland.
Guards: Steve Hutchinson, Minnesota; Jahri Evans, New Orleans.
Center: Nick Mangold, New York Jets.
Placekicker: Nate Kaeding, San Diego.
Kick Returner: Joshua Cribbs, Cleveland.

DEFENSE

Ends: Jared Allen, Minnesota; Dwight Freeney, Indianapolis.
Tackles: Jay Ratliff, Dallas; Kevin Williams, Minnesota.
Outside Linebackers: Elvis Dumervil, Denver; DeMarcus Ware, Dallas.
Inside Linebacker: Patrick Willis, San Francisco; Ray Lewis, Baltimore.
Cornerbacks: Charles Woodson, Green Bay; Darrelle Revis, New York Jets.
Safeties: Darren Sharper, New Orleans; Adrian Wilson, Arizona.
Punter: Shane Lechler, Oakland.

SECOND TEAM

OFFENSE

Quarterback: Drew Brees, New Orleans.
Running Backs: Ray Rice, Baltimore; Steven Jackson, St. Louis.
Fullback: Le'Ron McClain, Baltimore.
Tight End: Antonio Gates, San Diego.
Wide Receivers: Reggie Wayne, Indianapolis; Larry Fitzgerald, Arizona.
Tackles: Michael Roos, Tennessee; Jake Long, Miami.
Guards: Logan Mankins, New England; Kris Dielman, San Diego.
Center: Andre Gurode, Dallas.
Placekicker: David Akers, Philadelphia.
Kick Returner: DeSean Jackson, Philadelphia.

DEFENSE

Ends: Trent Cole, Philadelphia; Julius Peppers, Carolina.
Tackles: Darnell Dockett, Arizona; Haloti Ngata, Baltimore.
Outside Linebackers: Brian Cushing, Houston; LaMarr Woodley, Pittsburgh.
Inside Linebackers: David Harris, New York Jets; Jon Beason, Carolina.
Cornerbacks: Nnamdi Asomugha, Oakland; Asante Samuel, Philadelphia, and Leon Hall, Cincinnati (tie).
Safeties: Brian Dawkins, Denver; Ed Reed, Baltimore, and Nick Collins, Green Bay (tie).
Punter: Andy Lee, San Francisco, and Donnie Jones, St. Louis (tie).

Joe Thomas is far more likely to win games for his team than Johnson. Without a LT, you QB cannot get the ball to Johnson. In fact, WR's are considered a secondary position on a football team for that very reason, because they have to depend on their QB. NFL GM's will take a potential All Pro LT way before they would draft a WR.
How old are you because an awful lot of your ideas seem rather immature to me. I mean you claim Johnson can win games on his own when all he's done so far is help win 2 out of 32 games in his career. Makes your arguement pointless. Cleveland is pretty bad also with no QB and certainly no WR's and yett they have won more games than us so Thomas must be doing something to contribute.


LOL...Detroit beat your Joe Thomas led Cleveland Browns this year didn't they. Calvin Johnson had 161 yards and a TD in that game.......What did Joe Thomas do in that game?

You saying Joe Thomas is the reason for Cleveland winning more games this year than Lions is ridiculous. Cleveland has an overall better team. Both are great players, but I would be willing to bet you 75% of GM's would still take Calvin over Joe Thomas. Why? because there are Joe Thomas' coming out every year, you can find Joe Thomas' in the 1st round, the 2nd round, even the 3rd round. Calvin Johnson's do not come along very often, you won't find a Calvin Johnson in round 2 or round 3. Yadig?

noondog
01-15-2010, 01:56 PM
Your right they are elite DT's, I still think Berry is a better prospect... I don't let position dictate who to draft, skill dictates that.

If you guys think Berry is such a waste then how come he is the consensus number 1 player among many draft analysts?

Dude, your man-crush for Berry is intense.

I don't think that anyone has said that Berry would be a waste. I think that the general feeling is that Suh is a better prospect and fills a bigger need at the same time. McCoy and Berry might be a toss up.

If the Lions draft Berry, I'll still be happy. I know he's an amazing prospect. I'd just be happier if it were Suh or McCoy. Don't take this personally man, adopt some objectivity.

Iamcanadian
01-15-2010, 01:58 PM
I meant except Sean Taylor, as in he didn't play CB, he was just a beast which is why he was top 5.

Berry would line up at CB at certain times throughout a game in college. He can play the position, it's not a question of that. He prefers to play safety, so that's where he plays. Monte Kiffin has been quoted as saying Berry is the best DB prospect he has EVER seen. He's said Berry could play any position in an NFL secondary at an elite level. Yes he is alittle bias, but do you think he's just making all this up or something? Monte was a great D-coordinator for a long time, he knows what he's talking about.

Players make position changes all the time...many college DE's switch to OLB. many college CB's switch to S? many college WR's switch to TE. Jason Peters played TE in college, he's now an all-star LT....go figure. Berry can play CB or S and if you don't think he can then I don't know what else to tell you man.....

This last part is true but you will only find a top 5 drafted player switching positions if he fails at the position he was drafted to play. You simple don't get drafted in the top 5 with the idea that you can switch positions. They want sure things when they draft you in the top 5, they aren't going to pay you all that money to find out if you can switch, far too risky for all the money involved.
Now, I'm not saying Berry cannot play CB, all I'm saying is he will be a Safety in the NFL and likely a very good one but there is a reason why a NFL CB makes almost twice as much money as a NFL Safety and it has a lot to do with the importance of the position to a pro football team.

I don't know what Kiffen's reason are for making that statement, perhaps he was using it as a recruiting tool to improve their chances at getting DB's. I do know this, that I have heard coaches say all the time that so and so will be a great NFL Player. The former coach who trained Henson, the former Michigan QB, before his selection in the supplemental draft, said he would have gone #1 overall if he had taken part in the regular draft yet he ended up going in round 3 if I remember right. Since then, I don't take what coaches say too seriously. They tend to exaggerate especially when they are recruiting.

cotts1
01-15-2010, 02:06 PM
Dude, your man-crush for Berry is intense.

I don't think that anyone has said that Berry would be a waste. I think that the general feeling is that Suh is a better prospect and fills a bigger need at the same time. McCoy and Berry might be a toss up.

If the Lions draft Berry, I'll still be happy. I know he's an amazing prospect. I'd just be happier if it were Suh or McCoy. Don't take this personally man, adopt some objectivity.

I mean I guess my man crush for berry is only paralleled by your crush for ndamukong suh..........??.....

I've said many times, I won't be upset if Suh is picked.... he is a phenomenal prospect.

Brothgar
01-15-2010, 02:12 PM
I'd give my anal virginity to have Suh be the pick but if not then Okung-McCoy-Berry are all on equal footing to me.

cotts1
01-15-2010, 02:28 PM
This last part is true but you will only find a top 5 drafted player switching positions if he fails at the position he was drafted to play. You simple don't get drafted in the top 5 with the idea that you can switch positions. They want sure things when they draft you in the top 5, they aren't going to pay you all that money to find out if you can switch, far too risky for all the money involved.
Now, I'm not saying Berry cannot play CB, all I'm saying is he will be a Safety in the NFL and likely a very good one but there is a reason why a NFL CB makes almost twice as much money as a NFL Safety and it has a lot to do with the importance of the position to a pro football team.

I don't know what Kiffen's reason are for making that statement, perhaps he was using it as a recruiting tool to improve their chances at getting DB's. I do know this, that I have heard coaches say all the time that so and so will be a great NFL Player. The former coach who trained Henson, the former Michigan QB, before his selection in the supplemental draft, said he would have gone #1 overall if he had taken part in the regular draft yet he ended up going in round 3 if I remember right. Since then, I don't take what coaches say too seriously. They tend to exaggerate especially when they are recruiting.

Let me also say in regards to Joe Thomas being an all-pro and CJ not. CJ did miss a few weeks due to injury this year, and also had Daunte Culpepper and Drew Stanton throwing him the ball for a fairly significant portion of the season.

Drew Henson doesn't really relate because he chose baseball over football. NFL teams knew that, and the fact he still was picked in the 3rd round of the supplemental draft only shows how talented he was. He may have been an all-pro QB if he had went into the NFL after college. We'll never know, but history is on the side of Michigan QB's succeeding in the NFL.

cotts1
01-15-2010, 02:31 PM
weeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee

SINCE1978
01-15-2010, 03:41 PM
Cotts1, my man, I feel your passion ... but let me make a few comments here to see if we are on the same level of understanding.

Bullocks and Alexander should have no bearing on any future picks....they were horrible picks by a horrible GM.....they are no longer part of this team, completely irrelevant.

Bullocks is on IR & still collecting a check from the Detroit Lions. Whether he is in their long term plans is another question ...

I meant except Sean Taylor, as in he didn't play CB, he was just a beast which is why he was top 5.

Berry would line up at CB at certain times throughout a game in college. He can play the position, it's not a question of that. He prefers to play safety, so that's where he plays. Monte Kiffin has been quoted as saying Berry is the best DB prospect he has EVER seen. He's said Berry could play any position in an NFL secondary at an elite level. Yes he is alittle bias, but do you think he's just making all this up or something? Monte was a great D-coordinator for a long time, he knows what he's talking about.

[Players make position changes all the time...many college DE's switch to OLB. many college CB's switch to S? many college WR's switch to TE. Jason Peters played TE in college, he's now an all-star LT....go figure. Berry can play CB or S and if you don't think he can then I don't know what else to tell you man.....


Along those same lines recently Jim Schwarz said Jeff Backus had a Pro Bowl type season & should have been considered at the Tackle position for the game. He is a little bias too ... should we believe him b/c he said that? NO WAY! What coaches say about players on the team they currently coach is not something we should gauge a guys talent level on, regardless of the caliber of the coach (ie Monte Kiffin). I'm sure Nick Saban will deflect/defend conditioning & work ethic questions regarding Mt. Cody teh next 3 months leading up to the draft. So should I take him at his word that the guy is not going to show at 400+ to training camp after I pay him all that $$? HARDLY!


Your right they are elite DT's, I still think Berry is a better prospect... I don't let position dictate who to draft, skill dictates that.

If you guys think Berry is such a waste then how come he is the consensus number 1 player among many draft analysts?

Do you realize how ridiculous this is? You said "I don't let position dictate who to draft". So "what if" QB Jimmy Clausen is the clear cut #1 prospect on the board and St. Louis takes Suh ... according to your logic the Lions take a QB @ #2 since his skill dictates he is the BPA. Ridiculous. It's part of it, no question. But there also has to be a weighted decision based on the position he plays cotts1! There just has to be! I certainly have never called Berry a waste. He is an amazing talent ... for another team. We have several other needs & obvious holes to fill on a team that has won 2 games in 2 season, that a S #2 just does not make sense ... regardless of the players projected skill set at the position. It's the position, not the player!

StorminNorman
01-15-2010, 07:45 PM
WR is different than S

S is different than RB too.

Please, don't use Matt Millen as an example of a GM who knew what he was doing. They don't equate. I would have preferred Joe Thomas over Calvin Johnson. Last I looked, Thomas made the NFL All Pro team while I don't see Johnson's name on it.

Calvin Johnson was the better pick than Joe Thomas. Franchise LT's are found every draft, WR's with the skill set of Calvin Johnson come along once a decade.

StorminNorman
01-15-2010, 07:46 PM
I was gun ho on the Berry bandwagon, but now you can ONLY justify the pick if you believe he can play CB. The talent at Safety in this class is crazy good.

But the talent at Defensive Tackle is great as well.

I can make the argument that if Joe Haden runs a sub 4.4 40 he should be our pick.

Scotty D
01-15-2010, 08:32 PM
I would like to hear the key reasons of why you would take Haden at #2.

Brodeur
01-15-2010, 08:45 PM
Because he thinks Ernie Sims is good and is therefore a very problematic thinker?

SINCE1978
01-15-2010, 09:14 PM
Because he thinks Ernie Sims is good and is therefore a very problematic thinker?

Maybe we move Sims to S & draft Haden #2 ... our defensive backfield problems wold then be solved! I could not even type that without grinning, then slightly throwing up in my mouth ...

Prowler
01-16-2010, 07:08 AM
Calvin Johnson was the better pick than Joe Thomas. Franchise LT's are found every draft, WR's with the skill set of Calvin Johnson come along once a decade.

i would trade calvin for joe thomas any day of the year. give me a competent offensive coordinator who moves the chains and julian edelman instead.

StorminNorman
01-16-2010, 10:24 AM
I would like to hear the key reasons of why you would take Haden at #2.

A shut down corner is worthy of the costs of a high draft pick. The quality of depth in this draft at corner is worse than the quality of defensive tackle. Corner is a bigger need than defensive tackle as we lack one solid starter at CB where as I believe we have one starting DT already on our roster.

StorminNorman
01-16-2010, 10:25 AM
i would trade calvin for joe thomas any day of the year. give me a competent offensive coordinator who moves the chains and julian edelman instead.

Fine, I disagree entirely but you are certainly entitled to your opinion. I just believe it's far far far easier to find a stud LT than a freak WR.

P-L
01-16-2010, 12:50 PM
But a stud left tackle is far more valuable to a team than a freak wide receiver. I'm pleased with Calvin but, like Prowler, I'd trade him straight up for Joe Thomas if the opportunity presented itself.

Scotty D
01-16-2010, 01:24 PM
A shut down corner is worthy of the costs of a high draft pick. The quality of depth in this draft at corner is worse than the quality of defensive tackle. Corner is a bigger need than defensive tackle as we lack one solid starter at CB where as I believe we have one starting DT already on our roster.

You are getting really poor value by taking Haden. Plus with the way pass inteference is called now a days you better hope he is a STUD.

DoWnThEfiElD
01-16-2010, 02:22 PM
A shut down corner is worthy of the costs of a high draft pick. The quality of depth in this draft at corner is worse than the quality of defensive tackle. Corner is a bigger need than defensive tackle as we lack one solid starter at CB where as I believe we have one starting DT already on our roster.

Please Joe Haden at 2? He isn't even the best corner in his conference. Patrick Peterson, who will come out next year is better than Haden.

I'd take both DTs, Berry, McClain, or Okung before I would draft Haden at 2.

noondog
01-16-2010, 02:32 PM
Relatively weak CB class...Haden just happens to be the best of the lot. Not an elite CB imho.

Sort of a similar situation with Okung and OT class.

cotts1
01-16-2010, 02:53 PM
i would trade calvin for joe thomas any day of the year. give me a competent offensive coordinator who moves the chains and julian edelman instead.

This is just insane to me. Jeff Backus wasn't even too bad this year, sure Thomas would be an upgrade. Although if you think it would make us better on offense with Thomas and no CJ your craaaaaaaaaaaaaazy!!!! CJ is a playmaker, anytime he touches the ball he is a threat to go the distance. A LT can only do so much to, Stafford/Smith will still have to rely on a no-name LG, crappy Raiola, inconsistent Peterman, and even more inconsistent Cherlius to do their jobs......

Prowler
01-16-2010, 05:46 PM
for the system of offense that we run, we absolutely need a calvin johnson type to stretch the field vertically. in my ideal world though i would prefer to just do easy underneath routes ala the patriots and work horizontally with a few vertical shots thrown in. i think with a joe thomas we would have a more consistent offense since we'd be able to dominate one side of the field on run and pass plays. cj tends to just entice our qbs to force throws and is too inconsistent to be a championship caliber team. and yeah after a few more drafts and we acquire more talent then it'll be a moot point and we'll have the proper personnel with experience to run our offense.

Brothgar
01-28-2010, 12:14 PM
I'm not going to fall folly to the pipe dream of FA. so here is what I see in the draft.

1. Suh else Okung - The one thing I've seen out of this FO is that it will take a #1 of the position if available. While yes Berry is the best available at his position I don't hink Ko Simpson is that bad at the SS position or at least not as bad as our starting UT, CBs, or LT. Yes, I did see what the OL Coach and OC said about Backus but I'm not buying it.

2. Kyle Wilson CB

3. George Selvie - Big pipe dream for me because I really like Selvie even more so than Brandon Grahm.

4. Mike Johnson OG Alabama - OGs usually drop like rocks unless they have aspirations of being an OT like in the case with Brandon Albert. Last year Duke Robinson everyone's top OG plumited to the 6th round. Max Jean Gillis dropped far as well when he came out.

5. Jacoby Ford WR - We need a new return threat and lets hope that Ford fills that gap.

6. Walter McFadden -I liked what I saw from him in the bowl game I don't even know if he will be here in the 6th

Is it coincidence that all of my picks that are at the senior bowl are kicking ass? This means that we are not getting any of these players at the spots I have them going :( .

ShoeLB50
01-28-2010, 09:59 PM
NFL teams don't draft players in the top 5 to have them try and switch positions. There are zero guarantees that Berry could even make the switch after playing his whole career at S for Tennessee. I also don't think Sean Taylor at 6'4", 235 lbs was in any way able to play CB either. He never played it in college or in the pros.
Now if Berry were a CB with great 4.30 speed and had played the position his whole career in college and had proven to be an All star at that position, then there is no doubt, he would be a top CB prospect and likely top 5 pick, however he played Safety and that is what he will play in the pros.

Ronnie Lott was the #8 overall pick in the 82 draft if i remember correctly. He made the switch to corner his rookie year where he broke a rookie record taking 3 INT's to the house and finished 2nd in the ROY voting to Lawrence Taylor. They also won the Super Bowl that year. Lott then moved back to Safety before the 85 season where he finished his HOF career. He made all pro 11 times as a corner/FS/SS. This was all in the early/mid 80's where the passing game was not as developed as it is today and thus less important; so I would consider taking a S #8 overall then comparable to #2 overall today. I personally would not mind drafting Berry anyways despite being a Safety, but If they think he can play corner im OK with it.

Also Eric Berry played corner in HS and was recruited as a corner to Tenn. I even think he started at corner a few games at the start of his frosh year there. Monte Kiffen also lined him up in the slot quite a bit this year and has said he could play corner if they thought thats where he would make the biggest impact.

P-L
01-28-2010, 10:19 PM
Suh/McCoy and Kyle Wilson would be an amazing first two rounds. Wilson needs to stop dominating the Senior Bowl week so he is available at #34.

WMD
01-28-2010, 10:35 PM
I'm realllllllllly looking forward to the draft. It feels weird thinking that the Lions management will actually pick some good players.

noondog
01-28-2010, 11:04 PM
Suh/McCoy and Kyle Wilson would be an amazing first two rounds. Wilson needs to stop dominating the Senior Bowl week so he is available at #34.

I think Wilson's top end is the top of round 2, and the Lambs likely won't be selecting a CB there. Wilson's size will keep him out of round 1 imo. We may be able to get him.

I'd still prefer Iupati though...

D-Unit
01-28-2010, 11:09 PM
I'm realllllllllly looking forward to the draft. It feels weird thinking that the Lions management will actually pick some good players.
You guys have damn good picks every year. How can you act like you always end up with bad players? Not like you pick at the end of the rounds.

Oh wait... you took Brandon Pettigrew. :D Passed up on some real nice gems... but you did get the #1 TE! :P

Scotty D
01-28-2010, 11:32 PM
You guys have damn good picks every year. How can you act like you always end up with bad players? Not like you pick at the end of the rounds.

Oh wait... you took Brandon Pettigrew. :D Passed up on some real nice gems... but you did get the #1 TE! :P
http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c312/drolian/trollin.jpg

woodnick
01-29-2010, 08:19 AM
You guys have damn good picks every year. How can you act like you always end up with bad players? Not like you pick at the end of the rounds.

Oh wait... you took Brandon Pettigrew. :D Passed up on some real nice gems... but you did get the #1 TE! :P

As much as I agree with you that Pettigrew was a bad pick at #20 with all of the other talent still available, I also must admit that I'd rather have Pettigrew than Roy Williams and that contract...so have fun with that down in Dallas.

Brothgar
01-29-2010, 08:48 AM
As much as I agree with you that Pettigrew was a bad pick at #20 with all of the other talent still available, I also must admit that I'd rather have Pettigrew than Roy Williams and that contract...so have fun with that down in Dallas.

Damn D I'm going to have to put you on ...

http://girlspy.files.wordpress.com/2009/03/burnnotice-s1.jpg

Addict
01-29-2010, 11:52 AM
As much as I agree with you that Pettigrew was a bad pick at #20 with all of the other talent still available, I also must admit that I'd rather have Pettigrew than Roy Williams and that contract...so have fun with that down in Dallas.

Pettigrew was not a horrible pick. He was the top TE on the board, we all knew he was an option and I seem to recall a lot of us hoping against hope that Pettigrew would be there for our second round pick. The only thing you could say about it is that we may have been better off taking Oher. But then again, we don't know what Oher would have done in the Lions' offense. Don't forget that the Ravens are an all-round better team.

On a more forward-minded note: I have the sneaking suspicion we might be selecting Brandon Graham in round 2 or 3? Schwartz seems impressed, he's a pass-rusher and double-digit sacks for Michigan isn't a bad thing by any stretch of the imagination. He's kinda small-ish though... Still Schwartz seems impressed and if he is I see no reason not be.

Prowler
01-29-2010, 11:59 AM
graham is an unquantifiable player. you can't measure how good he is by height or arm size. he is big enough to hold the edge and has some sick pass rush moves. he's the kind of guy that i would want on my team no matter what the round. however i would prefer iupati, perrish cox, or kyle wilson in the 2nd.

noondog
01-29-2010, 12:45 PM
On a more forward-minded note: I have the sneaking suspicion we might be selecting Brandon Graham in round 2 or 3? Schwartz seems impressed, he's a pass-rusher and double-digit sacks for Michigan isn't a bad thing by any stretch of the imagination. He's kinda small-ish though... Still Schwartz seems impressed and if he is I see no reason not be.

There is no way that Graham falls to the third. An impossibility imo. I have trouble believing that he would slide past Philly...Graham is a carbon copy of Trent Cole imho.

If he does make it into the second and Iupati is gone, he's a Leo...

detknowitall
01-29-2010, 12:53 PM
Just wondering what you guys think about a draft ending up like this. I know there are going to be People that say I'd rather have this person or that, but would you be happy with this draft?

1. DT Gerald McCoy- Its him or Suh at #2. Nuff said.

2. CB Perrish Cox - Desperate need in the secondary and a solid pick.

3. CB Javier Arenas - We need another CB even after taking Cox, and Javier can put an end to the questionable return guys.

4. OG Mitch Petrus - Solid Value in the 4th and is a much better prospect than anything we have at guard now.

5. WR Taylor Price - Nice #2 receiver, or at worst solid hands slot receiver.

5. DE Austen Lane - Very productive with sacks, QB hits, Hurries, and has good size.

6. S Jonathan Amaya - good safety backup and solid special teams.

7. RB Darius Marshall - Solid backup with good speed. Most important attribute very durable. Only missed 2 games over his 3 years. Capped over 1,000 yards each of the last 2 seasons since becoming the full time starter.

cotts1
01-29-2010, 02:04 PM
Just wondering what you guys think about a draft ending up like this. I know there are going to be People that say I'd rather have this person or that, but would you be happy with this draft?

1. DT Gerald McCoy- Its him or Suh at #2. Nuff said.

2. CB Perrish Cox - Desperate need in the secondary and a solid pick.

3. CB Javier Arenas - We need another CB even after taking Cox, and Javier can put an end to the questionable return guys.

4. OG Mitch Petrus - Solid Value in the 4th and is a much better prospect than anything we have at guard now.

5. WR Taylor Price - Nice #2 receiver, or at worst solid hands slot receiver.

5. DE Austen Lane - Very productive with sacks, QB hits, Hurries, and has good size.

6. S Jonathan Amaya - good safety backup and solid special teams.

7. RB Darius Marshall - Solid backup with good speed. Most important attribute very durable. Only missed 2 games over his 3 years. Capped over 1,000 yards each of the last 2 seasons since becoming the full time starter.

I wouldn't mind a draft like this, however, I'm kinda thinking Arenas might be a stretch in round 3. I don't think he'll ever be more than a nickel CB and KR/PR. 4th round would be better for Arenas. McCoy, Cox, and BA DE would be better for our first 3 picks IMO.

DoWnThEfiElD
01-29-2010, 02:11 PM
I wouldn't mind a draft like this, however, I'm kinda thinking Arenas might be a stretch in round 3. I don't think he'll ever be more than a nickel CB and KR/PR. 4th round would be better for Arenas. McCoy, Cox, and BA DE would be better for our first 3 picks IMO.

Someone like Alex Carrington.

Prowler
01-29-2010, 02:17 PM
i'd rather give up our 3rd for a 4th and trade up with NE to secure Iupati.
Lions gives up 2nd(580) + 3rd(265)=845
NE gives up 1st(780) + 4th(58)=838

1(2). Suh/McCoy
1(22). Iupati
4(2). Top Safety who falls-hopefully Larry Asante or Reshad Jones. 9 safeties in 3 rounds? a good one will be here or BPA. we will get 3rd round value someplace here even if its Andre Roberts early.
4(22). Andre Roberts WR-McCluster would also be nice but not overpaying
5(2). Walter Thurmond CB/or similar CB with return skills(Owusu-Ansah)
5(15). John Jerry G-no more failing on 3rd and 2 runs. This is probably a wasted pick but i like the idea of depth and trotting him out in short yardage packages.
6(2). Best RB available. Heck Mike Hart was 6(36). Michael Smith Arkansas. Fast with great hands.

P-L
01-29-2010, 03:50 PM
You guys have damn good picks every year. How can you act like you always end up with bad players? Not like you pick at the end of the rounds.
Because we had one of the worst General Managers in sports history until this past year.

tblain1
01-31-2010, 02:40 PM
You guys have damn good picks every year. How can you act like you always end up with bad players? Not like you pick at the end of the rounds.

Oh wait... you took Brandon Pettigrew. :D Passed up on some real nice gems... but you did get the #1 TE! :P

We should change the name of this thread...this is post your Lions MOCK DRAFT. Not post to mock the Lions draft.

D-Unit
02-01-2010, 02:16 AM
We should change the name of this thread...this is post your Lions MOCK DRAFT. Not post to mock the Lions draft.
Ha ha ha... Sorry man. I love every single Lions poster on this site, and they love me... even if they don't know it. hahaha. I can joke like this because I'm cool like dat. :D

Nothing better than chatting on draft day with you fools. Always crackin' me up! :p

detknowitall
02-01-2010, 11:40 AM
i'd rather give up our 3rd for a 4th and trade up with NE to secure Iupati.
Lions gives up 2nd(580) + 3rd(265)=845
NE gives up 1st(780) + 4th(58)=838

1(2). Suh/McCoy
1(22). Iupati


The mock I made just didnt take into account and trades. It was sitting right where we were. Honestly though, I just don't see us getting Iupati. He improved his stock at the Sr. Bowl. I'm in no way in favor of trading up at all. We have too many stating holes to fill to give up 2nd and 3rd round picks. If you want Iupati you're going to have to trade down out of the #2 spot to grab him. If you can trade down it may not be a bad idea.

Prowler
02-01-2010, 06:27 PM
well i think its false value with the trade numbers. iupati is being mentioned as a can't miss hutchinson/faneca type right now but still being available at bottom of 1st round. we would still have our 2nd round pick(iupati in round 1) and 3rd round pick(4th rounder from patriots or whoever). we lose value late to gain value early which is a win for us.

detknowitall
02-02-2010, 11:26 AM
well i think its false value with the trade numbers. iupati is being mentioned as a can't miss hutchinson/faneca type right now but still being available at bottom of 1st round. we would still have our 2nd round pick(iupati in round 1) and 3rd round pick(4th rounder from patriots or whoever). we lose value late to gain value early which is a win for us.

I thought you had us trading our second and 3rd for a 1st and 4th?

Lions gives up 2nd(580) + 3rd(265)=845
NE gives up 1st(780) + 4th(58)=838

We wouldnt have a 2nd, or 3rd with this trade. And I don't see NE giving up a 1st for a 3 & 4. I dont see them trading away their first for a 2 and 3 either. Look at their trading history, they dont trade for fair value by chart they usually get the much much higher value.

Prowler
02-02-2010, 01:53 PM
you are correct, but i'm fighting the assumption that we are losing picks. i want people to know that we aren't losing any players from this draft and that we'd still be able to fill our needs since we'd have the same amount of picks. and the team doesn't matter, we can do a similar deal with picks in early 20s. New England traded out of the 1st round last year and seemed to target players in 2nd round plus this draft is deep enough and they have a few holes to fill on defense. They also tend to not follow the draft board (mankins) and if they believe their player will be there they don't have a problem trading down (chung).

cotts1
02-02-2010, 02:20 PM
you are correct, but i'm fighting the assumption that we are losing picks. i want people to know that we aren't losing any players from this draft and that we'd still be able to fill our needs since we'd have the same amount of picks. and the team doesn't matter, we can do a similar deal with picks in early 20s. New England traded out of the 1st round last year and seemed to target players in 2nd round plus this draft is deep enough and they have a few holes to fill on defense. They also tend to not follow the draft board (mankins) and if they believe their player will be there they don't have a problem trading down (chung).

What would you think if the Lions took Berry at 2, traded up into the late first and took Iupati and then took Cam Thomas in round 4?

Prowler
02-02-2010, 02:59 PM
i prefer the pass rush up the gut from mccoy but would like having iupati and thomas. i read a stat a year ago where i believe when a defense gets a sack the offense only scores something like 8-16% of the time as opposed to 2x-3x that.(its been a while) i'm a big fan of pressure along the defensive line which would allow us to drop more men back and stop sending as many blitzes. i also like having team leaders(either by skill or veteraness) along each of the 3 lines of defense and we're missing one on the dline. The secondary can count on delmas but still definately needs help, the linebackers can still look to peterson, foote, levy, but the dline only has grady jackson. so i'd feel more comfortable with mccoy then adding a corner/safety later.

Addict
02-02-2010, 03:16 PM
we're at number two guys. Either way we get either McCoy or Suh. It's all good.

Scotty D
02-02-2010, 03:42 PM
Iupati didn't look good in the actual game and that does account for something. I wouldn't want to give up any picks in moving up for him, but I'll gladly take him at #34 if he's there.

DoWnThEfiElD
02-02-2010, 03:48 PM
Iupati didn't look good in the actual game and that does account for something. I wouldn't want to give up any picks in moving up for him, but I'll gladly take him at #34 if he's there.

Yes, he isn't Brendan Albert, he proved that. He is a good guard, but I don't see him worth moving up 10 spots for.

WMD
02-03-2010, 05:33 AM
Here's a mock I saw on ANOTHER SITE :eek:

1. Ndamukong Suh
2. Kyle Wilson
3. Dexter McCluster
4. John Jerry

I would absolutely positively love this draft. Unfortunately I doubt it'd happen.. I'd expect Kyle Wilson and McCluster to be gone by the end of Round 2.. and it's always tough to predict where a guard is gonna get drafted. It's nice to dream about, though.

yarcraft3
02-03-2010, 10:36 AM
Here's a mock I saw on ANOTHER SITE :eek:

1. Ndamukong Suh
2. Kyle Wilson
3. Dexter McCluster
4. John Jerry

I would absolutely positively love this draft. Unfortunately I doubt it'd happen.. I'd expect Kyle Wilson and McCluster to be gone by the end of Round 2.. and it's always tough to predict where a guard is gonna get drafted. It's nice to dream about, though.

I saw that same Mock Lions WMD and also fell in love with it. I would take 3 of those players and be very happy. Maybe Myron Rolle in the 5th? Dreaming...

Scotty D
02-03-2010, 10:48 AM
I saw that same Mock Lions WMD and also fell in love with it. I would take 3 of those players and be very happy. Maybe Myron Rolle in the 5th? Dreaming...

I think Rolle is shooting up draft boards right now. I'd say he's late second-early third area. I agree that'd be a sick draft, but I'm not sure about McCluster. I like Aaron Brown more than others and I want a more complete back type like Ryan Matthew.

yarcraft3
02-03-2010, 11:54 AM
Good point.
Scotty D, what are your thoughts on Maurice Morris? Will the Lions consider letting him go and actually pursue a back in the draft or is that just false hope?

Scotty D
02-03-2010, 12:30 PM
Good point.
Scotty D, what are your thoughts on Maurice Morris? Will the Lions consider letting him go and actually pursue a back in the draft or is that just false hope?

I really like Maurice Morris, he's a solid back. The Lions will get a RB in the draft or free agency I can pretty much guarantee you that. He's a fall back plan if they can't though. I haven't really thought what that means for Morris though. I don't think are relying on Kevin Smith at all for next year (wouldn't be shocked if he was on the PUP to start the year).

Brodeur
02-03-2010, 12:45 PM
I think Rolle is shooting up draft boards right now. I'd say he's late second-early third area. I agree that'd be a sick draft, but I'm not sure about McCluster. I like Aaron Brown more than others and I want a more complete back type like Ryan Matthew.

Why does Aaron Brown not get opportunities, and I feel the need to ask that someone else likes him like me? Linehan didn't give him **** when Smith went down with an injury which annoyed me to no end.

DrunkenLament
02-03-2010, 01:09 PM
Why does Aaron Brown not get opportunities, and I feel the need to ask that someone else likes him like me? Linehan didn't give him **** when Smith went down with an injury which annoyed me to no end.

Well the rumors that were floating around during the season was that Brown kept missing assignments and wasn't always running the right route.

Scotty D
02-03-2010, 01:10 PM
Yeah I imagine he wasn't practicing well or messing up on things we wouldn't notice, and I don't know how good he is at picking up the blitz.

noondog
02-03-2010, 01:41 PM
Aaron Brown is a decent back, but I don't think he's cut out to be any more than a 5 or 6 touch per game kind of player.

I would absolutely love to see McCluster in Detroit. I think he would be a perfect speed back and a game-breaker. He would likely have to platoon, but nonetheless...

As for Rolle, the only way I see him going in the third round is if he absolutely convinces teams that he's in it for the long haul and not planning on a very short career to pursue being a doctor. The fact that he didn't play this year is obviously going to have a big impact as well. Considering how deep this year's safety class is, I would think Rolle will fall into the 4-5 round range...he'll be a solid pick-up there for somebody.

SINCE1978
02-03-2010, 02:05 PM
I heard the same rumblings about Aaron Brown & missing assignments & such ... regardless, the kid has speed & skill. When he touches the ball things happen, the chains move, etc ... He was a rookie. Rookies tend to react. The game is still so fast to them, he may be a perfect case for everything slowing down for him in year 2 where he can find his groove. (& his playbook!) I hope Linehan steals 10 or so plays out of New Orleans play book for Reggie Bush & get him touches in the same fashion. Bush does not block or carry 20x a game & even puts the rock on the carpet occasionally, yet Sean Payton still dials it up for him b/c he excites.

I agree on Dex McCluster from Ol Miss, very similar type of threat. He may even see action as a wildcat QB but I see him as WR with occasional sets lined up behind the QB (as a RB). If McCluster slips into the 4th I would take him for sure. RB by committee has proven effective in the league.(Jets,Chargers,Patriots,Raiders,Giants,Path ers,etc)

As for Maurice Morris, he seems a better #2 back then Aveon Cason, Rudy Johnson or some of the other clowns we have had here in the recent past. He seems to run hard, like he is mad. I like that.

Addict
02-04-2010, 06:23 AM
Good point.
Scotty D, what are your thoughts on Maurice Morris? Will the Lions consider letting him go and actually pursue a back in the draft or is that just false hope?

I don't think we should be pumping picks into the RB position as of right now. Plenty of places where we need help more than RB. That said IF there's a falling guy in round five or something, why not take a flyer.

tblain1
02-04-2010, 09:31 AM
I don't think we should be pumping picks into the RB position as of right now. Plenty of places where we need help more than RB. That said IF there's a falling guy in round five or something, why not take a flyer.

Part of me really agrees with this. I think if we improve our offensive line, you will see some of these RBs start to improve. I'm not sold on Kevin Smith but he is serviceable and still young.

Prowler
02-04-2010, 01:00 PM
i like maurice morris but am waiting for the combine on whether or not i would take jahvid best. i would prefer drafting a receiver in the 3rd round and a corner in the 2nd.

noondog
02-04-2010, 01:22 PM
McCluster in round 3 would provide a game-breaking back in the mould of a Cribbs or Harvin. To the best of my memory, I seem to recall the coaching staff repeatedly mentioning the lack of "explosion" plays that the team generates on offense. McCluster is the type of back who could change that significantly imo.

Having said that and if Best is available at #34, I wouldn't be as big an advocate at that point. I think McCluster represents far better value in round 3 than Best in round 2, especially considering some of the other prospects who will likely be available at #34.

DoWnThEfiElD
02-04-2010, 01:41 PM
McCluster in round 3 would provide a game-breaking back in the mould of a Cribbs or Harvin. To the best of my memory, I seem to recall the coaching staff repeatedly mentioning the lack of "explosion" plays that the team generates on offense. McCluster is the type of back who could change that significantly imo.

Having said that and if Best is available at #34, I wouldn't be as big an advocate at that point. I think McCluster represents far better value in round 3 than Best in round 2, especially considering some of the other prospects who will likely be available at #34.

I really like Best as a pro prospect. I would be more than happy with him at 34.

woodnick
02-04-2010, 02:28 PM
I really like Best as a pro prospect. I would be more than happy with him at 34.

I'd prefer Dwyer at 34 if we go RB there and he's still available.

DoWnThEfiElD
02-04-2010, 05:55 PM
I'd prefer Dwyer at 34 if we go RB there and he's still available.

I see Dwyer being a lot like K. Smith. Jahvid Best could be like a Jamaal Charles home run back, even when Smith comes back, they could compliment each other well.

Prowler
02-04-2010, 05:58 PM
i want mark ingram....

cotts1
02-04-2010, 06:55 PM
and Trent Richardson...

noondog
02-08-2010, 11:25 AM
Alright, now that the Super Bowl has been played and the Pro Bowl has mercifully left us for another year, we enter a period in the NFL calender that makes us relevent again. To celebrate this, here is my mock Lions offseason at this point (significant moves only):

Trades:

Gosder Cherilus for Buffalo's 2010 2nd round pick
*This makes sense on a few levels: Buffalo is hungry for young tackles with upside to grow with the interior linemen that were drafted by the Bills last year. Gives the Lions a chance to rid themselves of a Millen pick and get a valuable 2010 pick in return.

Ernie Sims and 2010 5th to Philly for Max Jean-Gilles
*Philly bolsters their LB corps while giving up what has amounted to a depth lineman for them. Jean-Gilles fills a need at guard for the Lions.

Free Agent Signings

Torry Holt, WR
* Holt will give Stafford a dependable, veteran receiver to play opposite our main man Megatron. Opposing defenses will have to respect what Holt brings to the table and as a result will loosen things up for Calvin enough to help him have a Pro Bowl season.

Aaron Kampman, DE
*I really think that Kampman will be one of, if not THE, free agent of choice for the Leo's. He is young enough to be a valuable contributor for the next several seasons, will relish the opportunity to get back into a 4-3 D and has the toughness and work ethic that Schwartz craves.

Larry Foote, MLB
*I see the Lions bringing Foote back on another one-year deal as an insurance policy as much as anything. I believe that Levy will break camp as the starting MIKE and Foote will mentor him in his soph season.

Dunta Robinson, CB
*Dunta will be looking for a change of scenery and a team where he can be "the man". He's young enough to still have several productive seasons and fills a big need for the Lions.

Draft

1. Ndamukong Suh, DT
*Whether this pick is Suh or McCoy, the Lions address a massive need at UT and helps the D-line out tremendously.

2(a). Kyle Wison, CB
*Suddenly, the Lions secondary looks to be in very good shape with the additions of Robinson and Wilson, both of whom should be week 1 starters.

2(b). Charles Brown, OT
*Slides right in at RT to take over for the departed Cherilus with the possibilty of taking over at LT down the road.

3. Dexter McCluster, RB
*McCluster gives the Lions a good change-of-pace back with the exposive qualities that they currently lack at the RB position (all due respect to Aaron Brown). 8-10 touches a game used in the Reggie Bush-type of role.

4. Myron Rolle, S
*Had he not taken a year off to pursue his studies and showed a greater overall commitment to football, he would be an easy second rounder. Lions roll the dice and wind up with a beauty.

Have at it, but try to take it easy on me ;)

DoWnThEfiElD
02-08-2010, 11:58 AM
I really do not see us being able to bring in Kampman or Robinson, I also can't see Cherilus being worth a 2nd round pick, especially the Bills which is in the top half of the round.

I would love for it to shake out like that, but I have a very hard time seeing any of that happen at this point.

Addict
02-08-2010, 05:34 PM
I really do not see us being able to bring in Kampman or Robinson, I also can't see Cherilus being worth a 2nd round pick, especially the Bills which is in the top half of the round.

I would love for it to shake out like that, but I have a very hard time seeing any of that happen at this point.

regardless it's silly to make mock drafts based on assumptions.

noondog
02-08-2010, 06:09 PM
regardless it's silly to make mock drafts based on assumptions.

Isn't that exactly what mock drafts are all about?

DrunkenLament
02-08-2010, 06:13 PM
Isn't that exactly what mock drafts are all about?

At least mock drafts are based on "logical" assumptions.

noondog
02-08-2010, 06:23 PM
At least mock drafts are based on "logical" assumptions.

I would encourage you to learn the difference between "logical" and "likely". There's nothing wrong with the logic in what I've done, it's simply unlikely.

Don't be a hater bro...there's a lot of time to kill between now and when the action starts. Try offering something constructive instead of tearing down fellow fans.

Addict
02-08-2010, 06:26 PM
Isn't that exactly what mock drafts are all about?

well no. It's ment to make a reasonable draft selection based on the team's current status, needs and draft picks in hand.

making assumptions on FA and even worse, pick trades is copping out on convenience. Saying "yeah, we'll sign Dunta Robinson" is just an excuse to not draft a CB 'cause you have other needs to fill.

if mock drafts were about conveniently predicting things based on vague assumptions of future actions what's the point of making a mock draft. It does not make sense. See I don't know what the hell is going on with the lions right now, I don't see enough of the games. So I don't make mock drafts.

If I would, here it is:

We sign all the FA's, then we trade them and all the guys on the team except Stafford for first and round picks and choose EVERYONE who is any good and not a QB in the first two rounds, assuming of course we trade for every single pick in the first two rounds.

how do you like that mock?

isn't that the best mock ever? We have all positions filled and all needs met.

yeah, this is how stupid assuming trades and signings is. So stop wasting my time and work with what we've got not with what we might have or could be getting.

woodnick
02-08-2010, 06:36 PM
well no. It's ment to make a reasonable draft selection based on the team's current status, needs and draft picks in hand.

making assumptions on FA and even worse, pick trades is copping out on convenience. Saying "yeah, we'll sign Dunta Robinson" is just an excuse to not draft a CB 'cause you have other needs to fill.

if mock drafts were about conveniently predicting things based on vague assumptions of future actions what's the point of making a mock draft. It does not make sense. See I don't know what the hell is going on with the lions right now, I don't see enough of the games. So I don't make mock drafts.

If I would, here it is:

We sign all the FA's, then we trade them and all the guys on the team except Stafford for first and round picks and choose EVERYONE who is any good and not a QB in the first two rounds, assuming of course we trade for every single pick in the first two rounds.

how do you like that mock?

isn't that the best mock ever? We have all positions filled and all needs met.

yeah, this is how stupid assuming trades and signings is. So stop wasting my time and work with what we've got not with what we might have or could be getting.


Rough day huh? It's ok, take a deep breath 'cuz we are going to get through this!

Scotty D
02-08-2010, 06:37 PM
Addict I don't know what your deal is...but no one is forcing you to look at this thread if it upsets you so much.

noondog
02-08-2010, 06:43 PM
well no. It's ment to make a reasonable draft selection based on the team's current status, needs and draft picks in hand.

making assumptions on FA and even worse, pick trades is copping out on convenience. Saying "yeah, we'll sign Dunta Robinson" is just an excuse to not draft a CB 'cause you have other needs to fill.

if mock drafts were about conveniently predicting things based on vague assumptions of future actions what's the point of making a mock draft. It does not make sense. See I don't know what the hell is going on with the lions right now, I don't see enough of the games. So I don't make mock drafts.

If I would, here it is:

We sign all the FA's, then we trade them and all the guys on the team except Stafford for first and round picks and choose EVERYONE who is any good and not a QB in the first two rounds, assuming of course we trade for every single pick in the first two rounds.

how do you like that mock?

isn't that the best mock ever? We have all positions filled and all needs met.

yeah, this is how stupid assuming trades and signings is. So stop wasting my time and work with what we've got not with what we might have or could be getting.

Wow. Midol my man...get with it.

I mocked Robinson as a FA because corner is a glaring need. I also having us draft a corner. What I mocked was based purely on what I thought were needs. Same with signing a FA DE and trading for a G.

And bud...btw...if you don't like reading posts about mocks, don't hit a thread that's titled "post your Lions mock here".

Addict
02-08-2010, 06:43 PM
dammit now I have to include noondogs post too othewise I'll be repeating myself. BRB.

Addict
02-08-2010, 06:50 PM
Rough day huh? It's ok, take a deep breath 'cuz we are going to get through this!

I reread it and the tone was a bit more angry that I intended. I didn't mean to come off as an angry old man or anything. Breath taken.

Addict I don't know what your deal is...but no one is forcing you to look at this thread if it upsets you so much.

I knew, I just knew that someone was gonna say something like this because of the "don't waste my time". But seriously, I just ment to say that it makes no sense to assume ahead of time that we'll sign free agents or trade for picks or players. I understand hope but a little realism is preferable. And it was about damn time someone said it.

Really, every year it's the same song and dance with these mocks, assumed is always that we sign some awesome FA and then we make perfect tradedowns and whatnot. My 'deal' is that it's much more constructive and quite frankly fun, to discuss what can be done to improve the team rather than indulge in some collective acid fantasy about netting the big players and getting the perfect trades. We can discuss free agents, we can discuss trades, we can discuss mocks. But let's not make one depend on the other. That's my 'deal' right there.

Wow. Midol my man...get with it.

I mocked Robinson as a FA because corner is a glaring need. I also having us draft a corner. What I mocked was based purely on what I thought were needs. Same with signing a FA DE and trading for a G.

And bud...btw...if you don't like reading posts about mocks, don't hit a thread that's titled "post your Lions mock here".

first off, I'm sorry about the tone, I overdid it a bit. But the point I make above to Scotty's post does stand: we can't have these things interdepend. I realize you mean no harm but it's just that every year the same thing is done and it gets old. The lions hardly ever get a nice FA signing and the few 'names' that do sign with detroit are the NFL equivalent of a sympathy **** (see: Foote, Larry).

I also realize that since I quoted you it seemed as if I just went to town on you specifically but I really didn't mean to: it was ment as a general point to articulate what is and has been grinding my gears for a few seasons now. I stand by the points I made in this post and the other one, but I do want to say that it wasn't personal (at all, I actually generally like your posts), and it wasn't supposed to be so... angry.

Scotty D
02-08-2010, 07:01 PM
I highly encourage users to post mocks including free agency and trades here whether they are realistic or not. I think its good for the forum and helps everyone's knowledge of the team. Please don't not be discouraged to post your mocks!

Addict
02-08-2010, 07:18 PM
I highly encourage users to post mocks including free agency and trades here whether they are realistic or not. I think its good for the forum and helps everyone's knowledge of the team. Please don't not be discouraged to post your mocks!

I hate to be the guy to put me in the corner, but I honestly don't think my post would discourage anyone from placing a mock, no matter how unrealistic. It's fun to imagine after all and lord knows the actual detroit lions are depressing.

SINCE1978
02-08-2010, 10:26 PM
I hate to be the guy to put me in the corner, but I honestly don't think my post would discourage anyone from placing a mock, no matter how unrealistic. It's fun to imagine after all and lord knows the actual detroit lions are depressing.

For me I feel reduced to enjoying the organizational development with drafts & scouting players over the product the Lions put on the field the past decade. I consider player scouting a silly hobby of mine but a major reason I got into it was because the team I follow has been so awful & they have always had great situational picks so I began researching the future investments. Of course most of those (up until 2009) were disappointments, but I am 31 & am convinced they will turn it around before I am over the hill!! ;o) Optimistic, absolutely. This thread needs some positive mojo, you guys are too uptight hahaha! (lol)

Addict
02-09-2010, 02:55 AM
For me I feel reduced to enjoying the organizational development with drafts & scouting players over the product the Lions put on the field the past decade. I consider player scouting a silly hobby of mine but a major reason I got into it was because the team I follow has been so awful & they have always had great situational picks so I began researching the future investments. Of course most of those (up until 2009) were disappointments, but I am 31 & am convinced they will turn it around before I am over the hill!! ;o) Optimistic, absolutely. This thread needs some positive mojo, you guys are too uptight hahaha! (lol)

it's gonna turn around six years ago? Wow.

SINCE1978
02-09-2010, 11:31 AM
Huh? I think you just called me old but 25 is over the hill to you?

25 is the new 40 ... ouch.

Prowler
02-09-2010, 01:40 PM
14 more days until i'm over the hill

Prowler
02-09-2010, 02:22 PM
Have at it, but try to take it easy on me ;)

i don't think we can move gosder but the bills definitely need help at tackle.

i really would like having max on our roster at guard. especially if it only cost sims.

i also really like holt and kampman. i don't think we'll grab dunta. i think houston will end up paying him or some contender will pick him up.

i do hope we bring back foote.

i love every bit of the draft.

Prowler
02-21-2010, 06:43 AM
1. suh/mccoy
2. corner-kyle wilson/perrish cox/kareem jackson
3. Jahvid Best-pretty much the point of me posting this is that Best's stock has taken a hit. injuries to hip, ankle, concussion will turn some teams off and i can see mathews as #2 RB off the board with mccluster and dwyer getting looks before Best.
4. john jerry or a top 8 safety if falls(Berry/Thomas/Mays-1st)(Allen/Chad Jones-2nd)(Asante/Reshad Jones/Rolle-3rd) teams only need so many safeties.
5. Best Available WR-Jacoby Ford or Taylor Price? looking for a Mike Wallace-Steelers type to stretch the field.
5. Akwasi Owusu-Ansah CB/KR/PR-7 return touchdowns
6. Sam Young/Jason Fox OT-remember when these guys were 2nd rounders? Scouts Inc has Young with a 43/100 grade and Fox with a 38/100 at 17th and 18th rated OT in the draft.
7. Eric Cook C/OG/OT- Ryan Cook's Brother. Probably will be undrafted FA but worth a 7th Rounder due to his experience playing every position on the line and our complete lack of depth. Career backup but valuable.

DoWnThEfiElD
02-21-2010, 08:45 AM
1. suh/mccoy
2. corner-kyle wilson/perrish cox/kareem jackson
3. Jahvid Best-pretty much the point of me posting this is that Best's stock has taken a hit. injuries to hip, ankle, concussion will turn some teams off and i can see mathews as #2 RB off the board with mccluster and dwyer getting looks before Best.
4. john jerry or a top 8 safety if falls(Berry/Thomas/Mays-1st)(Allen/Chad Jones-2nd)(Asante/Reshad Jones/Rolle-3rd) teams only need so many safeties.
5. Best Available WR-Jacoby Ford or Taylor Price? looking for a Mike Wallace-Steelers type to stretch the field.
5. Akwasi Owusu-Ansah CB/KR/PR-7 return touchdowns
6. Sam Young/Jason Fox OT-remember when these guys were 2nd rounders? Scouts Inc has Young with a 43/100 grade and Fox with a 38/100 at 17th and 18th rated OT in the draft.
7. Eric Cook C/OG/OT- Ryan Cook's Brother. Probably will be undrafted FA but worth a 7th Rounder due to his experience playing every position on the line and our complete lack of depth. Career backup but valuable.

I could not imagine a greater mock draft.

Prowler
02-21-2010, 09:35 AM
owusu-ansah actually could fit in as backup safety since he was basically lined up at safety most snaps in college. especially if we would have wilson, buchanan, james, king, and hobbs at corner. delmas and pearson are the only ones with actual contracts right now at safety although ko simpson would probably come back.

Scotty D
02-21-2010, 11:19 PM
Nice mock, I can see Best maybe falling to the third. Combine is going to be huge for the corners.

SINCE1978
02-22-2010, 03:40 PM
i don't think we can move gosder but the bills definitely need help at tackle.

i really would like having max on our roster at guard. especially if it only cost sims.

i also really like holt and kampman. i don't think we'll grab dunta. i think houston will end up paying him or some contender will pick him up.

i do hope we bring back foote.

i love every bit of the draft.

And even more help now in Buffalo @ Tackle since starting RT Brad Butler just announced his retirement at age 26!

2 questions prowler: 1) who on Buffalo's roster would you want to see a Lion that is accessible in a trade for Cherilus? 2) Who's is Detroit's RT if that trade takes place?
It's not like we have several Olineman waiting in the shadows to start? ;o)

noondog
02-22-2010, 03:53 PM
Trading Gos to B-lo was actually part of my offseason mock (page 7 of thread). It was for the Bills 2010 second round pick.

I think we can either draft Gos' replacement or sign someone for the short-term until we do. This year's draft is deep enough that another high second would be of SERIOUS benefit to us.

Prowler
02-22-2010, 04:27 PM
pretty much only draft picks as compensation. heck if we got a 2nd rounder for him, then gosder could turn into anquan or brandon marshall with one of our first 3 original picks turning into his replacement. i'm not a fan of gosder at all. i consider him a more expensive george foster. this is his final year to show something.

roscoe, stroud, and whitner are about the only 3 players that i'd consider. and yeah i'd not want to screw stafford over so we'd need a bruce campbell or trent williams to fall to us as a replacement at the top of 2nd.

woodnick
02-22-2010, 05:21 PM
And even more help now in Buffalo @ Tackle since starting RT Brad Butler just announced his retirement at age 26!

2 questions prowler: 1) who on Buffalo's roster would you want to see a Lion that is accessible in a trade for Cherilus? 2) Who's is Detroit's RT if that trade takes place?
It's not like we have several Olineman waiting in the shadows to start? ;o)

I'm not Prowler, but I'd love to take a stab at answering the question. I would love to send Gosder, J-Pete, and #34 to Buff for #9 where we could draft a LT and we can move Backus to RT.

We then would re-sign Foote, and play Levy at SLB, Foote at MLB, and Ernie at WLB.

Our draft would loook something like:

1) Suh/McCoy
9) Davis/Okung/Bulaga or Morgan/JPP
3rd) Cook/Spievey/Murphy
4th) Saffold/Jerry
5th) Blair White/Taylor Price
5th) Austen Lane/Jamie Kirlew
6th) James Starks/Joique Bell

FA we would try to target a DE like Kampman or KVB and a vet. RB like Chester.

Obviously this is a total pipe dream....but I'm kind of in an optomistic mood today and I'm bored.

woodnick
02-22-2010, 05:22 PM
By the way Prowler, your Price/Wallace comparison is exactly how I've been describing him to friends.

SINCE1978
02-27-2010, 09:33 PM
I'm not Prowler, but I'd love to take a stab at answering the question. I would love to send Gosder, J-Pete, and #34 to Buff for #9 where we could draft a LT and we can move Backus to RT.

We then would re-sign Foote, and play Levy at SLB, Foote at MLB, and Ernie at WLB.

Our draft would loook something like:

1) Suh/McCoy
9) Davis/Okung/Bulaga or Morgan/JPP
3rd) Cook/Spievey/Murphy
4th) Saffold/Jerry
5th) Blair White/Taylor Price
5th) Austen Lane/Jamie Kirlew
6th) James Starks/Joique Bell

FA we would try to target a DE like Kampman or KVB and a vet. RB like Chester.

Obviously this is a total pipe dream....but I'm kind of in an optomistic mood today and I'm bored.

KVB & Chester Taylor ....
Backus to RT & Gos, J Pete, #34 traded for an elite LT with pick #9 ...
That draft is great ...

I say smoke away on that pipe brotha, that is awesome!!!

Scotty D
03-06-2010, 11:37 PM
I've been trying to think of some new ways the Lions could go

1. Suh, DT - Nebraska

2. Devin McCourtney, CB - Rutgers

3. Donovan Warren, CB - Michigan

4. LeGarrette Blount, RB - Oregon

5. Brandon Carter, OG - Texas Tech

I'm trying to figure out what their plan is for cornerback because we have NOBODY.

DrunkenLament
03-07-2010, 12:54 AM
1. McCoy, DT - Oklahoma
2. McCourty, CB - Rutgers
3. Gerhart, RB - Stanford
4. Jerry, OG - Ole Miss
5. Warren, CB - Michigan

I don't see the Rams passing on Suh if they stay at one, so I think McCoy ends up being our pick. The rest is pretty standard, CB heavy with a OG and RB thrown in.

Calvin & Kevin
03-07-2010, 08:08 AM
Pick availability courtesy of DraftTek ratings and mocks, just to have some outside source of credibility


Scenario 1: Rams take Bradford

1. Ndamukong Suh DT
2. Jahvid Best RB
3. Jerome Murphy CB
4. Myron Lewis CB
5. Brandon Lang DE
6. Andre Roberts WR
7. Crezdon Butler CB


Scenario 2: Rams take Suh
Lions trade #2 to Seattle for #6, #40 (2nd round) and #101 (4th round)
Lions trade Cliff Avril to Miami for #107 (4th round)

1. CJ Spiller RB
2. Jason Pierre-Paul DE
2. Vladimir Ducasse G/T
3. Jerome Murphy CB
4. Lamarr Houston DT
4. Javier Arenas CB
4. George Selvie DE
5. Trevard Lindley CB
6. Antonio Brown WR
7. Reggie Stephens G

Addict
03-07-2010, 08:21 AM
Pick availability courtesy of DraftTek ratings and mocks, just to have some outside source of credibility


Scenario 1: Rams take Bradford

1. Ndamukong Suh DT
2. Jahvid Best RB
3. Jerome Murphy CB
4. Myron Lewis CB
5. Brandon Lang DE
6. Andre Roberts WR
7. Crezdon Butler CB


Scenario 2: Rams take Suh
Lions trade #2 to Seattle for #6, #40 (2nd round) and #101 (4th round)
Lions trade Cliff Avril to Miami for #107 (4th round)

1. CJ Spiller RB
2. Jason Pierre-Paul DE
2. Vladimir Ducasse G/T
3. Jerome Murphy CB
4. Lamarr Houston DT
4. Javier Arenas CB
4. George Selvie DE
5. Trevard Lindley CB
6. Antonio Brown WR
7. Reggie Stephens G

Arenas and Houston will be long gone by the time round four comes 'round. JPP in round 2?

Honestly if Suh isn't there, we should just get McCoy, they are 1a and 1b, and who's #1 is still a debate.

Calvin & Kevin
03-07-2010, 09:22 AM
Like I said, I was going by DraftTek, they're usually pretty reliable though not perfect of course

And I am always hearing that - "oh well (this guy) won't be there in round 2." I swear I've heard that about 50 guys. There are only so many picks in round 1. About JPP specifically, I know this site has a massive hard-on for him but the guy only played one year of D-I competition and is raw as hell. I can still see him slipping out of rd1.

SINCE1978
03-07-2010, 11:10 AM
I've been trying to think of some new ways the Lions could go

1. Suh, DT - Nebraska

2. Devin McCourtney, CB - Rutgers

3. Donovan Warren, CB - Michigan

4. LeGarrette Blount, RB - Oregon

5. Brandon Carter, OG - Texas Tech

I'm trying to figure out what their plan is for corner back because we have NOBODY.

Couple things ... agreed there are very few talented CB's on our roster. I think they retain Will James, let the youngster they picked up late last year (quietly) Jahi-Word Daniels show what he has & draft a CB high (rd 3). Eric King also returns from injury so does Jack Williams (again talent is questionable) but Rome was not built in a day ...

By the way, I've watched plenty of Donovan Warren, maybe you too? But he is not starting caliber talent in the NFL imho. I would look at a Brandon Ghee, Crezdon Butler or Javier Arenas in round 3 ... Perrish Cox if he slips.

Maybe they get Suh #2 & just think with KVB, Corey Williams, Hill (yr 2) & Suh they will be after the QB's so fast the CB's won't have to be spectacular? Just a thought ...

Scotty D
03-07-2010, 11:55 AM
Couple things ... agreed there are very few talented CB's on our roster. I think they retain Will James, let the youngster they picked up late last year (quietly) Jahi-Word Daniels show what he has & draft a CB high (rd 3). Eric King also returns from injury so does Jack Williams (again talent is questionable) but Rome was not built in a day ...

By the way, I've watched plenty of Donovan Warren, maybe you too? But he is not starting caliber talent in the NFL imho. I would look at a Brandon Ghee, Crezdon Butler or Javier Arenas in round 3 ... Perrish Cox if he slips.

Maybe they get Suh #2 & just think with KVB, Corey Williams, Hill (yr 2) & Suh they will be after the QB's so fast the CB's won't have to be spectacular? Just a thought ...

They might be high on Daniels or Jack Williams, thats a possibility. I liked Eric King a lot. Thats a good point about the defense of line suddenly becoming a strength and helping the secondary. I think Avril and Hunter will benefit a ton when they aren't the focus of the line.

SINCE1978
03-07-2010, 03:42 PM
They might be high on Daniels or Jack Williams, thats a possibility. I liked Eric King a lot. Thats a good point about the defense of line suddenly becoming a strength and helping the secondary. I think Avril and Hunter will benefit a ton when they aren't the focus of the line.

I agree on the Hunter/Avril points. Is DeWayne White in the fold still or does KVB, Avril, Hunter & McBride as the 4 man DE rotation mean he is the odd man out?

noondog
03-07-2010, 05:16 PM
I think White will still be in the fold. If he goes into camp healthy and gets a chance to play a regular role, I think he will definitely prosper from the D-line upgrades.

I could see White playing LDE on running downs with Avril/Hunter coming in on passing downs.

Prowler
03-09-2010, 08:47 AM
current draft order (post houston trade)

1(2)
2(2)
3(2)
4(2)
5(18)
7(7)
likely 7th round compensatory pick 7(49)ish

edit-i'll throw my mock here

1(2) Russell Okung OT OK State

i have deep seated belief that okung will be the pick here. if backus goes down then what? schwartz believes in rotations and earning your spot due to competition. there is a lack of quality competition on the oline.

2(2) Jahvid Best RB Cal

how better to change the culture of our team than to add a dynamic preseason heisman favorite to the backfield? he will change the way teams gameplan against us and open up plays down field. he will also be able to stay on if smith is healthy since best's game is different than smith/morris/dorsey. also solves a need on special teams returner since derrick williams can't catch and is afraid of the ball.

3(2) Perrish Cox CB OK State

although i love corners with return potential i would have preferred mccourty, kareem jackson, chris cook, and ghee. i believe all of them will be gone before this pick. he's inconsistent but his talent and our long term need leads to him being the pick here. this pick reminds me of the derrick williams pick last year, hopefully this one works out for the better.

4(2) Mitch Petrus G Arkansas

this pick could easily be linval joseph. if we pass on suh then i would love another DT with athletic ability to rotate with williams and hill. joseph's stock is rising to 4th round levels right now but he should fall on draft day due to positional depth. petrus gets the nod over jerry due to his familiarity in arkansas' offense. he led the way for mcfadden and felix jones during his first year starting and earned 2nd team SEC. Was 2nd team AP All American this year with Ryan Mallett enjoying a great season. 45 reps at the combine confirm his elite strength to be a LG and take on nose tackles at the NFL level.

5(18) Linval Joseph DT East Carolina

if we miss out on Petrus and haven't taken John Jerry yet then he has to be the pick here. with guard solidified then i'm looking for another rotational dt. there is an outside chance that arthur jones could drop here. i doubt that, but even if he did i would still look to joseph to be the pick. 6'4.5'' 330lbs with amazing athleticism. reminds me of sammie lee hill with more athletic ability. he probably deserves a third round grade in a normal, less talent-filled year.

7(7) Jeffrey Fitzgerald DE Kansas State

combine snub, stands to benefit greatly from presence of leaders like kvb. needs to have production match talent. started his career at virginia and started across from chris long. transferred due to personal reasons.

7(compensatory pick) Jon Amaya S Nevada

lighter safety at 203lbs. has legit 4.5 speed and was productive at nevada. will help solidify safety depth across from delmas. deserving of a rotational look and a chance to compete in our secondary. was a team captain and leader.

SINCE1978
03-09-2010, 11:34 AM
current draft order (post houston trade)

1(2)
2(2)
3(2)
4(2)
5(18)
7(7)
likely 7th round compensatory pick 7(49)ish

edit-i'll throw my mock here

1(2) Russell Okung OT OK State

i have deep seated belief that okung will be the pick here. if backus goes down then what? schwartz believes in rotations and earning your spot due to competition. there is a lack of quality competition on the oline.

2(2) Jahvid Best RB Cal

how better to change the culture of our team than to add a dynamic preseason heisman favorite to the backfield? he will change the way teams gameplan against us and open up plays down field. he will also be able to stay on if smith is healthy since best's game is different than smith/morris/dorsey. also solves a need on special teams returner since derrick williams can't catch and is afraid of the ball.

3(2) Perrish Cox CB OK State

although i love corners with return potential i would have preferred mccourty, kareem jackson, chris cook, and ghee. i believe all of them will be gone before this pick. he's inconsistent but his talent and our long term need leads to him being the pick here. this pick reminds me of the derrick williams pick last year, hopefully this one works out for the better.

4(2) Mitch Petrus G Arkansas

this pick could easily be linval joseph. if we pass on suh then i would love another DT with athletic ability to rotate with williams and hill. joseph's stock is rising to 4th round levels right now but he should fall on draft day due to positional depth. petrus gets the nod over jerry due to his familiarity in arkansas' offense. he led the way for mcfadden and felix jones during his first year starting and earned 2nd team SEC. Was 2nd team AP All American this year with Ryan Mallett enjoying a great season. 45 reps at the combine confirm his elite strength to be a LG and take on nose tackles at the NFL level.

5(18) Linval Joseph DT East Carolina

if we miss out on Petrus and haven't taken John Jerry yet then he has to be the pick here. with guard solidified then i'm looking for another rotational dt. there is an outside chance that arthur jones could drop here. i doubt that, but even if he did i would still look to joseph to be the pick. 6'4.5'' 330lbs with amazing athleticism. reminds me of sammie lee hill with more athletic ability. he probably deserves a third round grade in a normal, less talent-filled year.

7(7) Jeffrey Fitzgerald DE Kansas State

combine snub, stands to benefit greatly from presence of leaders like kvb. needs to have production match talent. started his career at virginia and started across from chris long. transferred due to personal reasons.

7(compensatory pick) Jon Amaya S Nevada

lighter safety at 203lbs. has legit 4.5 speed and was productive at nevada. will help solidify safety depth across from delmas. deserving of a rotational look and a chance to compete in our secondary. was a team captain and leader.

Good analysis on these players Prowler, solid picks .. Best could be a real grab @ #34. Amaya is a solid rd 7 type player. leader,hardworker,special teamer as well ... word is out about Linval Joseph, those combine numbers were ridiculous! So doubt he lasts until 5. Ghee could possibly be there in rd 3? Cox would work.
On the #2 pick ...
My chief concern is Schwartz likes Jeff Backus. We need a LT upgrade, no question ... we also need a LG, BAD! If Okung is the pick, we don't have a G to support that side (Backus shifting is not as simple as it sounds) Okung may be more talented then Backus but that side of the line with a rookie LT would struggle I would guess. He needs a solid LG to help support. I propose since Schwartz likes Backus & we owe him a ton of cash still, upgrade the LG spot first & get by with Backus 1 more year. (A healthy Pettigrew & say Rodger Saffold or John Jerry makes Backus better I'm proposing)
Combine that with what the mgmt has been saying & if it is anything other than lip service, they seem to be building toward NOT being a consistant top 5 pick. I like that plan for a change! ;o) That said, Suh seems to me a special player where as Okung seems to me just another LT. Get the BPA & make the Dline the new strength, like Schwartz has wanted since day 1.
To answer your question about Backus getting hurt ... Jon Jansen is servicable. What if Corey Williams gets hurt, is Andre Fluellen as solid or proven a back up on the dline as Janson on the oline?? I say no way. Unless we get 2 #1 picks for Suh (like Seattle's 2 picks) that would be the only way I would consider trading the rights to Kong Suh ... (ie we get Dan Williams & Taylor Mays then Jahvid Best in rd 2 I would certainly consider that trade)

prock
03-09-2010, 11:44 AM
In my opinion, when you are in a division with Jared Allen, Clay Matthews, and now Julius Peppers, you gotta get your o-line settled before anything else.

Brodeur
03-09-2010, 12:00 PM
If another person suggests drafting Okung over Suh or McCoy, I will cut their balls off with a non sterile razor.

Prowler
03-09-2010, 12:08 PM
i definitely don't want us to be like the broncos and 49ers in 2003. drafting george foster and kwame harris in the first round and watching nnamdi asomugha go in pick 31. with that said, okung reminds me of clady and to a lesser extent a young chris samuels. if those names are too good, then tarik glenn also comes to mind. i'd be willing to take tarik glenn at #2.

backus can slide to right tackle. i hate cherilus and think that he can ride the pine until okung or backus gets hurt. petrus/john jerry can man LG while peterman locks down RG. backus is still under contract for this year and 2011. if we don't get our left tackle this year then i'd want him next year....however i want the skilled juniors next year(aj green, julio jones, ingram, etc) and having our LT situation cleared up now will free us for those beasts next year.

i do believe mayhew and schwartz have to realize that backus vs peppers, jared allen, and mathews six times a year will put a premium on our pass protection this year. plus cherilus was chosen by millen and has no ties to our current management.

SINCE1978
03-09-2010, 12:13 PM
In my opinion, when you are in a division with Jared Allen, Clay Matthews, and now Julius Peppers, you gotta get your o-line settled before anything else.

No question, but Backus is paid BIG TIME through 2012 ... The Vikings are one thing with McKinnie, but it 's not like Orlando Pace & Chad Clifton in Chicago or GB are that much better at LT than Detroit right now?!

2010 DRAFT SUH! Oh & I propose drafting for a LG stud with a round 3 or 4 pick. (Asamoah,Petrus, Lauvao, Jerry,Render etc) this supports Backus inside, Pettigrew on the outside as the elite "blocking" TE they drafted him to be ;o)

2011 is the elite LT pick up with our 1st rounder. (Carimi/Barksdale ringing bells?!) deal with possilby cutting Backus with a year left or open it up for competition to the aging veteran.

Scotty D
03-09-2010, 01:00 PM
I would not be shocked if Mayhew drafted Okung.

DoWnThEfiElD
03-09-2010, 01:41 PM
If another person suggests drafting Okung over Suh or McCoy, I will cut their balls off with a non sterile razor.

It really should be rusty as well.

I'm really not for overrating a LT just because some DE got signed in the division. Suh or McCoy are better long term options.

detroit4life
03-09-2010, 01:56 PM
right now if no more moves were made today id like to see:

1. McCoy
2. Best
3. Donnovan Warren
4. BA OG

WMD
03-09-2010, 02:07 PM
So we should change our plans, and draft a lesser player just because of something other teams did?

What about making the other teams change their draft plans because we have quite the sexy DT rotation?

DrunkenLament
03-09-2010, 02:11 PM
right now if no more moves were made today id like to see:

1. McCoy
2. Best
3. Donnovan Warren
4. BA OG

Warren isn't a 3rd rounder. At this point hes more of a 5th or 6th round guy.

tblain1
03-09-2010, 02:18 PM
1(2) Russell Okung OT OK State

i have deep seated belief that okung will be the pick here. if backus goes down then what? schwartz believes in rotations and earning your spot due to competition. there is a lack of quality competition on the oline.

2(2) Jahvid Best RB Cal

how better to change the culture of our team than to add a dynamic preseason heisman favorite to the backfield? he will change the way teams gameplan against us and open up plays down field. he will also be able to stay on if smith is healthy since best's game is different than smith/morris/dorsey. also solves a need on special teams returner since derrick williams can't catch and is afraid of the ball.


With the #2 pick, we should not be thinking "rotation." I think I see what you are going with but I just don't think you make decisions on the #2 pick like that. You simply take the best player out there and most experts say Okung should be a good, solid OT and Suh, McCoy should be great DTs.

As far as Best; I keep seeing people using him with our 2nd pick. If we have many equal options this is where I'd rather use my pick to get an OT. I think Smith and Morris are ok; not homerun hitters but if we improve the line they can be ok. But yeah... Best's return potential is kinda sexy. Someone might be able to convince me that this would be the right pick but I don't know if I'm sold yet.

Prowler
03-09-2010, 02:21 PM
So we should change our plans, and draft a lesser player just because of something other teams did?

What about making the other teams change their draft plans because we have quite the sexy DT rotation?

i'd say that matt stafford and calvin johnson are the franchise. this is an extension of the long term goal of them throwing touchdown passes together for a very long time. we had needed to get better on defense. we have added talent and are a long way from done, but we have a vertical offense and getting away from stafford and calvin was never the plan. there are no left tackles in the 2nd round. there are plenty of dts in the 4th round and later.

woodnick
03-09-2010, 02:23 PM
No question, but Backus is paid BIG TIME through 2012 ... The Vikings are one thing with McKinnie, but it 's not like Orlando Pace & Chad Clifton in Chicago or GB are that much better at LT than Detroit right now?!

2010 DRAFT SUH! Oh & I propose drafting for a LG stud with a round 3 or 4 pick. (Asamoah,Petrus, Lauvao, Jerry,Render etc) this supports Backus inside, Pettigrew on the outside as the elite "blocking" TE they drafted him to be ;o)

2011 is the elite LT pick up with our 1st rounder. (Carimi/Barksdale ringing bells?!) deal with possilby cutting Backus with a year left or open it up for competition to the aging veteran.

Any chance you can elaborate on this?

Prowler
03-09-2010, 02:35 PM
Any chance you can elaborate on this?

2010-$4.95M base salary
$2.773M alloted from signing bonus(i'm unsure if this is only useful if we had a salary cap and this was paid already or if this is a roster type bonus paid this year)
$1.050 other bonus(probably the roster bonus)

2011-$5.45M base salary
$223,178 signing bonus alloted thing-probably already paid, but i'll list it in case we have a salary cap next year.
$1.05M other bonus(again probably roster)


for comparison jason peters signed a 6 year $60M contract which would be comparable to our #2 pick contract.

woodnick
03-09-2010, 02:47 PM
2010-$4.95M base salary
$2.773M alloted from signing bonus(i'm unsure if this is only useful if we had a salary cap and this was paid already or if this is a roster type bonus paid this year)
$1.050 other bonus(probably the roster bonus)

2011-$5.45M base salary
$223,178 signing bonus alloted thing-probably already paid, but i'll list it in case we have a salary cap next year.
$1.05M other bonus(again probably roster)


for comparison jason peters signed a 6 year $60M contract which would be comparable to our #2 pick contract.


Yeah, those are the numbers I have also. The thing that I'm confused about is how we have "paid him through 2012," I thought that NFL contracts are not guaranteed, so we wouln't have to pay him anything if we release him, we'd just have to take the cap hit which would probably be a good idea when there is no salary cap as compared to next year when there will probably be a cap.

I'm in no way advocating drafting Okung over a DT @ #2, just trying to sort through the argument.

Prowler
03-09-2010, 03:07 PM
Yeah, those are the numbers I have also. The thing that I'm confused about is how we have "paid him through 2012," I thought that NFL contracts are not guaranteed, so we wouln't have to pay him anything if we release him, we'd just have to take the cap hit which would probably be a good idea when there is no salary cap as compared to next year when there will probably be a cap.

I'm in no way advocating drafting Okung over a DT @ #2, just trying to sort through the argument.

i would say forget the signing bonus allotment and just look at $6M/year for the final two years.

With the #2 pick, we should not be thinking "rotation." I think I see what you are going with but I just don't think you make decisions on the #2 pick like that. You simply take the best player out there and most experts say Okung should be a good, solid OT and Suh, McCoy should be great DTs.

i don't know what more okung has to do to be classified as elite. he has more experience and production than jason smith, he put up 38 reps and had a great combine before tweaking his hamstring, he started 8 games as a true freshman at right tackle, and has 34 straight starts without injury.

Offensive Tackle specific Traits
Awareness 2 Adequate-to-good awareness. Picks up blitzes and stunts. Finds his assignment as a second-level run blocker. Will provide help to the inside when he can. Knows how to hand off defenders when flowing to one side as a zone blocker.
Toughness 1 Impressed by his toughness. Works to the whistle and plays with a mean streak. Has a mauler mentality in the run game.
Pass Protection 1 "Plays with great balance, mirror-and-slide ability and awareness in pass pro. Feet are a notch below elite. Gets set quickly in pass pro. He is capable of consistently getting set wide and shutting down the perimeter versus speed rushers. Shows long arms and big hands, which he uses well to keep separation and sustain. "
Run Blocking 2 "Takes solid angles and shows good initial pop. Has long arms and a strong upper body to control defenders. He's big and shows above-average strength as a drive blocker. Consistently reaches the second level on time and shows the ability to hit the moving target. Only knock is that he occasionally struggles to lock on and sustain, which can be rectified with better hand usage in most instances."

Trait Scale
1 = Exceptional 2 = Above average 3 = Average 4 = Below average 5 = Marginal for legal purposes please check them out on ESPN insider and consider this only a preview and enticement to join. this is in no way the entire scouting report, only half of it.

he's above average or exceptional at about every category.

he allowed just one sack and 2 quarterback pressures all season.
-backus 8 sacks 27 pressures
-cherilus 9 sacks 26 pressures

had 127 knockdown blocks and 58 domination blocks. I'm not sure how they classify those, but OK State led the Big 12 in rushing for the 4th straight year.

he even stonewalled brian orakpo who was a pro bowler this year.

what more does he need to do? he can't get tackles or sacks like suh, but how much more dominant does he have to be? he deserves top 3 consideration.

woodnick
03-09-2010, 03:10 PM
i would say forget the signing bonus allotment and just look at $6M/year for the final two years.


But if we release him then we don't have to pay him for his final 2 years right?

Prowler
03-09-2010, 03:18 PM
i'm pretty sure we don't, but i'm only 65%.

woodnick
03-09-2010, 03:34 PM
i'm pretty sure we don't, but i'm only 65%.

65% huh, man I was really hoping for a 67% assurance at least

SINCE1978
03-09-2010, 03:36 PM
i would say forget the signing bonus allotment and just look at $6M/year for the final two years.



i don't know what more okung has to do to be classified as elite. he has more experience and production than jason smith, he put up 38 reps and had a great combine before tweaking his hamstring, he started 8 games as a true freshman at right tackle, and has 34 straight starts without injury.

for legal purposes please check them out on ESPN insider and consider this only a preview and enticement to join. this is in no way the entire scouting report, only half of it.

he's above average or exceptional at about every category.

he allowed just one sack and 2 quarterback pressures all season.
-backus 8 sacks 27 pressures
-cherilus 9 sacks 26 pressures

had 127 knockdown blocks and 58 domination blocks. I'm not sure how they classify those, but OK State led the Big 12 in rushing for the 4th straight year.

he even stonewalled brian orakpo who was a pro bowler this year.

what more does he need to do? he can't get tackles or sacks like suh, but how much more dominant does he have to be? he deserves top 3 consideration.

Thanks for digging up those #'s on Backus ...
Solid stats on Mr. Okung, granted those are 12/13 game seasons (sack/pressure #'s) vs. 16 for Gos & Jeff ... Okung is top 3 talent but not BPA imho. Let St. Louis "reach" for their "need" in a QB, we will continue on the BPA path. Let's face facts though, Backus is not getting cut this year, he's starting. If we draft Okung #2 overall he is expected to start as well getting paid that much. So what do you do Prowler?? (my name is Chris by the way)

But if we release him then we don't have to pay him for his final 2 years right?

Not sure, it's not "guaranteed" but I don't know what Detroit would be on the hook for $ wise if they out-right cut him. That is unlikely since Schwartz openly discusses his fondness for Backus & not just as a man but as a talented player & contributor on his offense. If they take Okung that is 4 first round picks & a 1 second rounder on the oline! Talk about overspending at a position! (granted Millen filled round holes with square pegs, reaching for need but I'm just say'n)

woodnick
03-09-2010, 03:57 PM
Personally, I say that:
1) if we can trad either Backus or Gosder for a 3rd or better, or
2) trade #2 down to #6 at most and pick up a minimum of an extra 2nd, or
3) If the Lions view Backus or Gos as a pro-bowl level LG.

Then we look at drafting Okung, but if not then we should go BPA, which IMO, is still Suh/McCoy.

That said I would really love for one of the above mentioned scenarios to work out and lead us to draft Okung.

tblain1
03-09-2010, 03:58 PM
i would say forget the signing bonus allotment and just look at $6M/year for the final two years.



i don't know what more okung has to do to be classified as elite. he has more experience and production than jason smith, he put up 38 reps and had a great combine before tweaking his hamstring, he started 8 games as a true freshman at right tackle, and has 34 straight starts without injury.

for legal purposes please check them out on ESPN insider and consider this only a preview and enticement to join. this is in no way the entire scouting report, only half of it.

he's above average or exceptional at about every category.

he allowed just one sack and 2 quarterback pressures all season.
-backus 8 sacks 27 pressures
-cherilus 9 sacks 26 pressures

had 127 knockdown blocks and 58 domination blocks. I'm not sure how they classify those, but OK State led the Big 12 in rushing for the 4th straight year.

he even stonewalled brian orakpo who was a pro bowler this year.

what more does he need to do? he can't get tackles or sacks like suh, but how much more dominant does he have to be? he deserves top 3 consideration.

Unfortunately I don't have access to Scouts Inc. I'd like to check that out though.

So I guess the way I see it is this: Suh is potentially a game changing DT. Once in a lifetime type pick. Okung is probably the best OT in the draft (I don't think I have seen a mock with anyone higher at his position). I don't disagree that we need to protect Stafford better and get an OT. My thinking is draft Suh (or McCoy), then use the 2nd round pick to take an OT that slips. I think the value you can get for an OT at #34 + Suh outweighs the value you get for Okung + another position at #34 (most people bring up Wilson or Best). If you go DT to fill the remaining gap pencilled in by Hill you probably get Cody, maybe Odrick or Williams. At OT, I'm thinking either Campbell or Duccasse with Iupati being a long shot these days.

The impact of Suh plus Duccasse I think outweighs the impact to our team by Okung plus anyone else.

I realize I made a few assumptions there but in general, despite areas of most need, I think we have to go after the "elite of the elite" and that is Suh.

SINCE1978
03-09-2010, 04:06 PM
Personally, I say that:
1) if we can trad either Backus or Gosder for a 3rd or better, or
2) trade #2 down to #6 at most and pick up a minimum of an extra 2nd, or
3) If the Lions view Backus or Gos as a pro-bowl level LG.

Then we look at drafting Okung, but if not then we should go BPA, which IMO, is still Suh/McCoy.

That said I would really love for one of the above mentioned scenarios to work out and lead us to draft Okung.

I gotta hammer you on that post woodnick ...
Smoke on brotha ... really?? 1) Trading a first round drafted Tackle or 2) having said T(s) convert to G (not to mention at a Pro Bowl caliber level) or 3) Trading out of a top 5 pick ... ALL 3 are pipe dreams dude!!

Prowler
03-09-2010, 04:09 PM
Let's face facts though, Backus is not getting cut this year, he's starting. If we draft Okung #2 overall he is expected to start as well getting paid that much. So what do you do Prowler?? (my name is Chris by the way)

my name's Clint and i've been going insane since i have 8 days off(5 paid, 3 weekend). I'm also waiting to hear if I get to become inventory manager at Petsmart, so this has been a very long week for me. I would draft okung and promise him atleast the RT spot. if he outplays backus then okung can be LT with backus at RT. Gosder doesn't factor into the debate, he's only depth. we are only due to pay him around $2M/year(some years plus, some minus) with 2012 being his last paid year with 855k base salary, 450k bonus, and $1.2M allotment that might not come into play.

i would also try to resign backus to an extension. his dedication and commitment to the team should be rewarded. maybe a 3 year extension at $3-4M/year. it will ease his concerns and let him retire as a lion with dignity.

woodnick
03-09-2010, 04:38 PM
I gotta hammer you on that post woodnick ...
Smoke on brotha ... really?? 1) Trading a first round drafted Tackle or 2) having said T(s) convert to G (not to mention at a Pro Bowl caliber level) or 3) Trading out of a top 5 pick ... ALL 3 are pipe dreams dude!!

I know they were pipe dreams, I guess I should've clarified that and bolded the ifs. I tried to imply that with the second to last sentence.

Brothgar
03-09-2010, 05:33 PM
On the #2 pick ...
My chief concern is Schwartz likes Jeff Backus. We need a LT upgrade, no question ... we also need a LG, BAD! If Okung is the pick, we don't have a G to support that side (Backus shifting is not as simple as it sounds) Okung may be more talented then Backus but that side of the line with a rookie LT would struggle I would guess. He needs a solid LG to help support. I propose since Schwartz likes Backus & we owe him a ton of cash still, upgrade the LG spot first & get by with Backus 1 more year. (A healthy Pettigrew & say Rodger Saffold or John Jerry makes Backus better I'm proposing)
Combine that with what the mgmt has been saying & if it is anything other than lip service, they seem to be building toward NOT being a consistant top 5 pick. I like that plan for a change! ;o) That said, Suh seems to me a special player where as Okung seems to me just another LT. Get the BPA & make the Dline the new strength, like Schwartz has wanted since day 1.
To answer your question about Backus getting hurt ... Jon Jansen is servicable. What if Corey Williams gets hurt, is Andre Fluellen as solid or proven a back up on the dline as Janson on the oline?? I say no way. Unless we get 2 #1 picks for Suh (like Seattle's 2 picks) that would be the only way I would consider trading the rights to Kong Suh ... (ie we get Dan Williams & Taylor Mays then Jahvid Best in rd 2 I would certainly consider that trade)

It's an issue that came up last year with Backus, as the Lions at least acted interested in drafting Jason Smith with the No. 1 overlal pick. Didn't happen then, and likely won't happen now. But we asked, anyway, as Schwartz met with a small group of Detroit media today here at the NFL scouting combine in Indianapolis.

He reiterated his end-of-season comments about Backus having a Pro Bowl-caliber season at left tackle and being the team's most consistent run-blocker. But he also left the door open, just in case.

"He can play left tackle, he can play left guard," Schwartz said. "If that's something he ends up doing, I think he could do either one. But I have a lot of comfort level with him -- we all do -- from the standpoint of he's very, very consistent, he's very durable. ... You add all those things up, you'll find a place for that guy to play."

As for Cherilus possibly moving inside? Schwartz pretty much shot that notion down right away.

From The Detroit News: http://apps.detnews.com/apps/blogs/lionsblog/index.php?blogid=2018#ixzz0hj2BBBLK

SINCE1978
03-09-2010, 07:38 PM
my name's Clint and i've been going insane since i have 8 days off(5 paid, 3 weekend). I'm also waiting to hear if I get to become inventory manager at Petsmart, so this has been a very long week for me. I would draft okung and promise him atleast the RT spot. if he outplays backus then okung can be LT with backus at RT. Gosder doesn't factor into the debate, he's only depth. we are only due to pay him around $2M/year(some years plus, some minus) with 2012 being his last paid year with 855k base salary, 450k bonus, and $1.2M allotment that might not come into play.

i would also try to resign backus to an extension. his dedication and commitment to the team should be rewarded. maybe a 3 year extension at $3-4M/year. it will ease his concerns and let him retire as a lion with dignity.

Best of luck Clint with Petsmart ... I'm sure Scott Wright would give a heck of a recommendation if needed! ;o) (lol)
I just feel Suh is BPA ... but we'll see, your plan might come to fruition?!

Again, knock it out the park!

prock
03-10-2010, 12:12 AM
No question, but Backus is paid BIG TIME through 2012 ... The Vikings are one thing with McKinnie, but it 's not like Orlando Pace & Chad Clifton in Chicago or GB are that much better at LT than Detroit right now?!

2010 DRAFT SUH! Oh & I propose drafting for a LG stud with a round 3 or 4 pick. (Asamoah,Petrus, Lauvao, Jerry,Render etc) this supports Backus inside, Pettigrew on the outside as the elite "blocking" TE they drafted him to be ;o)

2011 is the elite LT pick up with our 1st rounder. (Carimi/Barksdale ringing bells?!) deal with possilby cutting Backus with a year left or open it up for competition to the aging veteran.

McKinnie is SO overrated. He is a bum.

Scotty D
03-10-2010, 12:17 AM
McKinnie is SO overrated. He is a bum.

I'm not trying to offend you as a Viking fan, but I totally agree. He is living on previous years hype.

Addict
03-10-2010, 02:49 AM
I'm not trying to offend you as a Viking fan, but I totally agree. He is living on previous years hype.

wait, he's a vikes fan?

SINCE1978
03-10-2010, 07:51 AM
McKinnie is SO overrated. He is a bum.

I'm not trying to offend you as a Viking fan, but I totally agree. He is living on previous years hype.

Thank you for helping me make my point ... there are no elite LT's in the entire NFC North! Backus does not stand out but he does not lag behind either. I agree at some point an upgrade is required, I just argue it is not this draft. Support the pieces that are in place, get an elite LG & that helps Backus vs. replacing him. ($6 million)
I think it was already said but I would not make a habit of drafting a player to defend other teams. I do what makes sense for MY team. Florio wrote on PFT that Chicago has the rights to divorce Peppers after 1 year if it is a bad marriage ... so he may not be in the division for the remainder of his career. BPA imo goes Suh, McCoy, Berry, Clausen, Okung. If St. Louis reaches for a QB (Bradford) we also skip over the 2 DT's & Berry I would be upset. I feel that would be "settling" for a player, & if we did not entertain several trade back options with the #1-4 BPA on the board that would be crazy & lazy. if a LT is our focus, Okung likley could be had at pick 5 or 6 especially in this scenario if the 2 DT's are still there so let's get another pick or 2 out of it. That's just smart.

detroit4life
03-10-2010, 11:36 AM
I think you have to solidify the LG position first. If we do that and backus is still below average then consider it. But with Backus's contract id rather not pay him to play LG and you don't want to replace the entire left side of your line with atleast one rookie. Why don't we try our best to get our future LG this year then we can address LT and put him in a situation that he can actually succeed

SINCE1978
03-12-2010, 11:08 AM
my mock today for the Leo's ...

Suh Hulk, Neb
Best RB, Cal
Ghee CB, Wake
Lauvao LG, ASU
Butler OLB, Washington
Amaya S, Nevada

Undrafted QB Mike Kafka Northwestern

5 starters in 2009 draft (Stafford,Pettigrew,Delmas,Levy,Hill)
4 starters in 2010 FA/trades (KVB,Burelson,Houston, Williams)
4 solid starters in 2010 draft(Suh,Best,Ghee,Lauvao)

We are on the up-swing boys! We are building toward 2011!

StorminNorman
03-12-2010, 08:25 PM
Assuming no trades:

1. Suh DL
2. Davis LT
3. Franks CB
4. McKnight RB

El Peefs?????
03-12-2010, 09:26 PM
Seeing Prowlers mock in his sig on other posts makes me a sad panda. A face palm will be all Im able to muster if the Lions spend both their top two picks on offense.

Prowler
03-12-2010, 09:42 PM
Seeing Prowlers mock in his sig on other posts makes me a sad panda. A face palm will be all Im able to muster if the Lions spend both their top two picks on offense.

http://draftcountdown.com/forum/showthread.php?p=2040594&#post2040594 lol.
this is where we learn that we just traded our 3rd rounder and that okung will be our 1st pick. followed up by promoting ernie sims to lifetime captain and that we're drafting tim tebow in the 2nd.

DoWnThEfiElD
03-13-2010, 12:15 AM
Assuming no trades:

1. Suh DL
2. Davis LT
3. Franks CB
4. McKnight RB

Getting Suh and Davis would be insane.

SINCE1978
03-13-2010, 10:08 AM
If Davis slips to #34 that means likely 4 other LT's went before him & I'm not sure with #34 I want the 5th rated player at a position? Just say'n. He is a beast, I still see him in the RT mold. Splitting hairs but his 40 was 5.4 and that is 0.2 to 0.3 away from were elite LT's need to be these days to get to the speed rushing DE off the edge.

Prowler
03-13-2010, 04:46 PM
this is why i wouldn't mind okung....we can stop hearing about oher and if we pass on him the we'd have to hear about davis.

El Peefs?????
03-14-2010, 11:07 AM
If Davis slips to #34 that means likely 4 other LT's went before him & I'm not sure with #34 I want the 5th rated player at a position? Just say'n. He is a beast, I still see him in the RT mold. Splitting hairs but his 40 was 5.4 and that is 0.2 to 0.3 away from were elite LT's need to be these days to get to the speed rushing DE off the edge.

I dont really think how fast one can run 40 yards in gym clothes is a good indicator of how a player gets off the line after a snap.

jmillercanada
03-16-2010, 10:30 AM
My overall prurpose of this question is becasue i want to move down in the draft.

There are only two real "franchise" QB's in this draft 1) Bradford 2)Clausen

With Seattle, STL, Buffalo, CLE and Washington all needing a franchise QB
STL has whta ever guy they want....so they take Bradford who seems to be the overall consenous. That leaves 4 teams intrested in Clausen services.

With NO Guarantee that someone will trade up to 2 do we force their hand and take Clausen with the NUMBER 2 pick

The we have the option of trading down with
Washington Clausen for #4 overall and #37
Seattle #6 # 38 #70
Cle #7 # #39 #71
Buffalo #9 #41 and next year 2nd

Just an idea let me know what you think?

woodnick
03-16-2010, 10:39 AM
My overall prurpose of this question is becasue i want to move down in the draft.

There are only two real "franchise" QB's in this draft 1) Bradford 2)Clausen

With Seattle, STL, Buffalo, CLE and Washington all needing a franchise QB
STL has whta ever guy they want....so they take Bradford who seems to be the overall consenous. That leaves 4 teams intrested in Clausen services.

With NO Guarantee that someone will trade up to 2 do we force their hand and take Clausen with the NUMBER 2 pick

The we have the option of trading down with
Washington Clausen for #4 overall and #37
Seattle #6 # 38 #70
Cle #7 # #39 #71
Buffalo #9 #41 and next year 2nd

Just an idea let me know what you think?


Nope...it would be too risky. We would loose a lot of leverage because every team would know that we are not planning on signing him and then if we can't trade him before the interested team makes their selection then we are relegated to a lesser package or a future pick (2011 1st).

Or if no team offers a package that we would consider adequate then we are in a quandry of whether to sign him to a huge contract just so we can try to trade him or we don't sign him and essentially forfeit our 1st round pick and we then loose out on a chance to draft whoever we really want, no Suh, no McCoy, no Okung, and No Berry.

So again, no way we would ever do this.

Prowler
03-16-2010, 10:41 AM
that takes more balls than i'm willing to use right now. plus our leverage is hindered by stafford, since there is no way we'd keep clausen. so teams would weigh our need to offload clausen vs their need to overpay us for him. i do have suspicions that seattle wouldn't mind waiting until next season for locker, that cleveland wouldn't be bullied by us and wouldn't mind waiting, that washington is doing things differently and aren't interested in giving up draft picks, and that buffalo might be thinking offensive tackle in the 1st then tebow in the 2nd or a different qb.

i'm not confident enough in other teams wanting clausen, especially after how far brady quinn fell with a similar background. i can see any of those teams possibly wanting to move up for him, but only if its their decisions. they should like their fallback options in this deep draft.

Brothgar
03-16-2010, 11:41 AM
My overall prurpose of this question is becasue i want to move down in the draft.

There are only two real "franchise" QB's in this draft 1) Bradford 2)Clausen

With Seattle, STL, Buffalo, CLE and Washington all needing a franchise QB
STL has whta ever guy they want....so they take Bradford who seems to be the overall consenous. That leaves 4 teams intrested in Clausen services.

With NO Guarantee that someone will trade up to 2 do we force their hand and take Clausen with the NUMBER 2 pick

The we have the option of trading down with
Washington Clausen for #4 overall and #37
Seattle #6 # 38 #70
Cle #7 # #39 #71
Buffalo #9 #41 and next year 2nd

Just an idea let me know what you think?

That sounds like Matt Millen to me. Hey lets take Calvin Johnson and try to force a deal with the Bucs after we have him they will fall in line. Teams don't fall in line like that. If there is as much competition for Clausen as you think there is then teams will give their best offer regardless so there is no need to pick him. Even with Calvin our worse case scenario is we have the best WR prospect in a decade. Worse case here is we are stuck with a two multimillion dollar QBs one that isn't all that good to begin with and you lose all bargaining power because teams KNOW you have to get rid of him and they have you by the balls.

SINCE1978
03-16-2010, 02:06 PM
My overall prurpose of this question is becasue i want to move down in the draft.

There are only two real "franchise" QB's in this draft 1) Bradford 2)Clausen

With Seattle, STL, Buffalo, CLE and Washington all needing a franchise QB
STL has whta ever guy they want....so they take Bradford who seems to be the overall consenous. That leaves 4 teams intrested in Clausen services.

With NO Guarantee that someone will trade up to 2 do we force their hand and take Clausen with the NUMBER 2 pick

The we have the option of trading down with
Washington Clausen for #4 overall and #37
Seattle #6 # 38 #70
Cle #7 # #39 #71
Buffalo #9 #41 and next year 2nd

Just an idea let me know what you think?

First off, welcome to the forum ... Go Lion's!

Secondly, terrible idea. ;o) (sorry)

Show me in the history of the draft where this strategy has worked. I went out a limb & did not research before my response but I am pretty confident it has never worked.