what if the saints traded for vernon gholston, what's the compensation?

[nofalcons10]

i think that greg williams could turn gholston into the monster that he was at ohio state.

jevon kearse--14.5 sacks 1999
will smith---13.5 sacks 2009


williams does a great job with ends with freakish talent.


any jets fans around have any idea what compensation the saints should offer if we wanted him in 2010?

[RaiderNation]

Probabaly a 3rd with compensation

[bigbluedefense]

I think at this point, they'd give him away for free if it means they don't have to pay him anymore.

[nofalcons10]

i asked saints fans on another site what they would want to give up for gholston and and glenn doresy who are perfect for the 4-3 but are miscast in a the 3-4.

people forget that gholston had better measurables than mario williams, demarcus ware, and brian orakpo.

we need to replace charles grant who is old and injured.

[no bare feet]

so, this hasn't happened?

[P-L]

How do you get that Vernon Gholston had better measurable than Mario Williams? Gholston ran a 4.65 at 6'3" 266 and had a 35.5" vertical while Mario Williams ran a 4.66 at 6'6" 295 and had a 40.5" vertical.

[nofalcons10]

I think at this point, they'd give him away for free if it means they don't have to pay him anymore.

are you a giants fan?


if we trade will prevent open market competition if he were cut. if he were waived he could be claimed by an opponent with a worse record.

[no bare feet]

so, this is hypothetical?

[PACKmanN]

i asked saints fans on another site what they would want to give up for gholston and and glenn doresy who are perfect for the 4-3 but are miscast in a the 3-4.

people forget that gholston had better measurables than mario williams, demarcus ware, and brian orakpo.

we need to replace charles grant who is old and injured.
lol, that terrible run defense would take another step down if you put Gholston at LE...

[Bills2083]

I'm assuming this is a hypothetical thread with a misleading title?

[Splat]

i asked saints fans on another site what they would want to give up for gholston and and glenn doresy who are perfect for the 4-3 but are miscast in a the 3-4.

Please make it stop.

[diesel]

i think that greg williams could turn gholston into the monster that he was at ohio state.

jevon kearse--14.5 sacks 1999
will smith---13.5 sacks 2009


williams does a great job with ends with freakish talent.


any jets fans around have any idea what compensation the saints should offer if we wanted him in 2010?

If Rex Ryan can't get anything out of Gholston what makes you think Gregg Williams can?

[senormysterioso]

a trade that i could see the saints making is trading for Kampman if the Packers give him the franchise or transition tag. The franchise tender wouldn't be that much since he was an OLB this year.

[no bare feet]

there's the IF i was looking for. efff if

[gsorace]

i asked saints fans on another site what they would want to give up for gholston and and glenn doresy who are perfect for the 4-3 but are miscast in a the 3-4.

Gholston doing absolutely nothing on the field has nothing to do with the scheme he's in. The Jets line up in a 4-3 almost as often as they do in a 3-4 and he still can't get on the field.

people forget that gholston had better measurables than mario williams, demarcus ware

No he didn't

[no bare feet]

a trade that i could see the saints making is trading for Kampman if the Packers give him the franchise or transition tag. The franchise tender wouldn't be that much since he was an OLB this year.

I don't see that. After the injury and terrible year Kampman would barely merit a 3rd.

[nofalcons10]

How do you get that Vernon Gholston had better measurable than Mario Williams? Gholston ran a 4.65 at 6'3" 266 and had a 35.5" vertical while Mario Williams ran a 4.66 at 6'6" 295 and had a 40.5" vertical.

gholston
http://www.*************.com/ratings/dsprofile.php?pyid=10412&draftyear=2008&genpos=DE

williams
http://www.*************.com/ratings/dsprofile.php?pyid=11478&draftyear=2006&genpos=DE


gholston is faster,stronger (37 225 reps) and can jump higher than williams but williams is taller.

[diesel]

gholston
http://www.*************.com/ratings/dsprofile.php?pyid=10412&draftyear=2008&genpos=DE

williams
http://www.*************.com/ratings/dsprofile.php?pyid=11478&draftyear=2006&genpos=DE


gholston is faster,stronger (37 225 reps) and can jump higher than williams but williams is taller.

If only talent was based on numbers the draft would be a whole lot easier, now wouldn't it?

[LonghornsLegend]

Well for one when I ran across this thread I read it like it already happened.


For 2, let's quit the "he's in the wrong defense" argument, that works for Dorsey because Dorsey has still in spurts looked very good and played his ass off while making plays.


Gholston on the other hand doesn't care, doesn't try, and doesn't like contact. What about those qualities make him attractive in a 4-3? If the Jets got anything more then a 6th round it would be a huge steal and I'd get a good laugh out of it.


People always forget that in a hybrid 3-4 like Rex Ryan runs you can make the OLB virtually a 4-3 DE, he doesn't have to rush the passer standing up, hell he doesn't even have to play the run. You can line him up like a RDE with his hand in the dirt and tell him to get after the QB every play, I don't know why people act like if he goes to a 4-3 his role or responsibility would change all that much.

[Bucs_Rule]

The Bucs got a second for Gaines Adams and he was a bust for 3 seasons.

[CC.SD]

What the hell, is this an entirely hypothetical thread?

What if the Chargers traded for Chris Johnson? zomgz

[no bare feet]

The Bucs got a second for Gaines Adams and he was a bust for 3 seasons.

Difference being that Gholston has played like 9 downs.

[nofalcons10]

If Rex Ryan can't get anything out of Gholston what makes you think Gregg Williams can?

will smith had his best sack total ever in 2009.

he would at least be a younger charles grant for us. possibly more.

grant was never that talented.

[diesel]

Well for one when I ran across this thread I read it like it already happened.


For 2, let's quit the "he's in the wrong defense" argument, that works for Dorsey because Dorsey has still in spurts looked very good and played his ass off while making plays.


Gholston on the other hand doesn't care, doesn't try, and doesn't like contact. What about those qualities make him attractive in a 4-3? If the Jets got anything more then a 6th round it would be a huge steal and I'd get a good laugh out of it.


People always forget that in a hybrid 3-4 like Rex Ryan runs you can make the OLB virtually a 4-3 DE, he doesn't have to rush the passer standing up, hell he doesn't even have to play the run. You can line him up like a RDE with his hand in the dirt and tell him to get after the QB every play, I don't know why people act like if he goes to a 4-3 his role or responsibility would change all that much.

Nothing else needs to be said. My thoughts exactly.

[CC.SD]

it's almost prophetic.

don't forget, it's nearly dead season, when we'll debate the best corners 45 times, the best qbs 74 times and will probably get at least one thread wondering if the titans would take a 4th and like, curtis painter for johnson.

edit: fixed the worst title ever. probably for the second time. and am really only leaving this open because it could be entertaining.

That's true...I miss the QB attractiveness ranking thread. Good times.

[no bare feet]

How does the Rooney rule effect trades? Do you have to consider a white person before trading for someone?

[nofalcons10]

Well for one when I ran across this thread I read it like it already happened.


For 2, let's quit the "he's in the wrong defense" argument, that works for Dorsey because Dorsey has still in spurts looked very good and played his ass off while making plays.


Gholston on the other hand doesn't care, doesn't try, and doesn't like contact. What about those qualities make him attractive in a 4-3? If the Jets got anything more then a 6th round it would be a huge steal and I'd get a good laugh out of it.


People always forget that in a hybrid 3-4 like Rex Ryan runs you can make the OLB virtually a 4-3 DE, he doesn't have to rush the passer standing up, hell he doesn't even have to play the run. You can line him up like a RDE with his hand in the dirt and tell him to get after the QB every play, I don't know why people act like if he goes to a 4-3 his role or responsibility would change all that much.

mario williams played his entire rookie season at end and only had 4.5 sacks.

the next year he had 14.

sometimes it takes time to learn a single position, the jets have asked gholston to learn two.

[bigbluedefense]

How does the Rooney rule effect trades? Do you have to consider a white person before trading for someone?

good luck trading for a running back.

[no bare feet]

good luck trading for a running back.

Toby Gerhart.

[Brent]

it's almost prophetic.

don't forget, it's nearly dead season, when we'll debate the best corners 45 times, the best qbs 74 times and will probably get at least one thread wondering if the titans would take a 4th and like, curtis painter for johnson.

edit: fixed the worst title ever. probably for the second time. and am really only leaving this open because it could be entertaining.
better looking USC rookie LB: Cushing, Matthews or Rey Rey?

[diabsoule]

What if monkeys flew out of my butt?

The ******* Argonauts have a better chances at trading for Gholston than the Saints do. Get out of here with that ****.

[Splat]

better looking USC rookie LB: Cushing, Matthews or Rey Rey?

Matthews duh.

[NOLAFan]

No...just no.
I mean i know historically the Saints are a stupid franchise,see the trades to get ricky williams, but i'm pretty sure we have "righted" the ship and we wouldn't do this.

[nofalcons10]

No...just no.
I mean i know historically the Saints are a stupid franchise,see the trades to get ricky williams, but i'm pretty sure we have "righted" the ship and we wouldn't do this.

for less than third would be a steal.

c'mon will smith wasn't even that good at ohio state. gholston set the single season sack record there and repeatedly beat jake long at times.

some guys just cant play 3-4 LB. look at Kampman.

[nofalcons10]

What if monkeys flew out of my butt?

The ******* Argonauts have a better chances at trading for Gholston than the Saints do. Get out of here with that ****.

you do know that we traded for a linebacker from the jets who couldn't produce in the 3-4 but is a probowler in our 4-3, right?

to you it may seem stupid but to a saints fan it could make alot of sense. will smith was from ohio state too.

[Splat]

for less than third would be a steal.

c'mon will smith wasn't even that good at ohio state. gholston set the single season sack record there and repeatedly beat jake long at times.

some guys just cant play 3-4 LB. look at Kampman.

Some guys just can't play in the NFL.

[Brent]

Matthews duh.
it's that flowing hair, isnt it?

[nofalcons10]

Some guys just can't play in the NFL.

again, mario williams was not mario williams his first year and he played every snap at DE.

you guys are not being realistic here.

[DoughBoy]

it's almost prophetic.

don't forget, it's nearly dead season, when we'll debate the best corners 45 times, the best qbs 74 times and will probably get at least one thread wondering if the titans would take a 4th and like, curtis painter for johnson.

edit: fixed the worst title ever. probably for the second time. and am really only leaving this open because it could be entertaining.

Curtis Painter seals it. Chris Johnson may make it into the hall of fame, but Curtis Painter will have an entire new wing made up in Canton just for him called the hall of awesome god like creatures.

[senormysterioso]

it's that flowing hair, isnt it?

On the radio broadcast of the game this weekend, James Lofton was talking about how he could tell Matthews and Hawk apart because the blonde highlights in Matthews hair were slightly lighter than Hawks.

[gsorace]

you do know that we traded for a linebacker from the jets who couldn't produce in the 3-4 but is a probowler in our 4-3, right?

to you it may seem stupid but to a saints fan it could make alot of sense. will smith was from ohio state too.

Vilma had proven himself to be a good player in the 4-3 and then the Jets went to a 3-4.

Gholston can't even take playing time away from Bryan ******* Thomas

[vikes_28]

it's that flowing hair, isnt it?

Indeed. If he was a little smaller, had boobs, and a less masculine face, I might consider ******* him.

[Splat]

again, mario williams was not mario williams his first year and he played every snap at DE.

you guys are not being realistic here.

He has 30 tackles and 0 sacks in two seasons, could he turn it around sure but a team would be crazy to trade a draft pick and pick up his huge deal.

[nofalcons10]

Vilma had proven himself to be a good player in the 4-3 and then the Jets went to a 3-4.

Gholston can't even take playing time away from Bryan ******* Thomas



yeah but he got to start an ENTIRE YEAR at linebacker (his college position) for a playoff team in 2004 surrounded by a lot of defensive talent.

and again....mario williams.....

[nofalcons10]

He has 30 tackles and 0 sacks in two seasons, could he turn it around sure but a team would be crazy to trade a draft pick and pick up his huge deal.

as crazy as it was for the bears to pick up the contract of the 2007 overall pick and trade a second rounder?

like i keep saying. gholston has never really had a chance.

[Brent]

i'd pick 'rey', but scotty would probably hear 'ray' and then we'd all be in trouble.
Scotty would probably give it up for all three, you know he loves buff men.

[Splat]

You keep saying Mario Williams but he flashed at times his rookie year and you could see the kid had talent VG has done nothing.

[Crickett]

any jets fans around have any idea what compensation the saints should offer if we wanted him in 2010?

A bag of Doritos.

[nofalcons10]

did you like, see mario play his rookie year, or are you just mindlessly quoting stats? because one of those make for a really bad argument.

no, but i watched alot of texans fans calling him a bust after one season after reggie bush helped us make it to the NFCCG.

sometimes people like you are too quick to write players off as busts.

i've witness charles grant, will smith, joe johnson and darren howard grow as ends over the course of their careers from green rooks who couldn't play contain against the run and from one dimensional pass-rushers with limited moves to well-rounded probowlers.

i've watched alot of linemen in my day develop into phenomenal players.

[Splat]

as crazy as it was for the bears to pick up the contract of the 2007 overall pick and trade a second rounder?

That is just another reason not to trade for VG that deal hasn't worked out for the Bears at all.

[Brent]

true enough... i guess cushing and matthews could make pretty 'good' (not really the adjective there... can't think of a better one) characters on jersey shore.
Nah, Clay's hair is too long. Cushing looks like he could fit in on that show so well.

[BaLLiN]

What if STEEVEEE became head coach of the Bills? They would totally rape with the all white team. His draft board would be incredible...

Jimmy Clausen- Nice german heritage, great white tone.
Jordan Shipley- From the south, but he does possess great white skillzzz
Sam Bradford- slightly indian, huge risk right there
Jan Jorgensen-
http://www.byucougars.com/uploads/graphics/athletes/m-00000002477.jpg
...two things..... WOW.....and first round lock for us

[vikes_28]

I think the noobs who keep posting in this thread are the same person just bumping their own thread.

[nofalcons10]

That is just another reason not to trade for VG that deal hasn't worked out for the Bears at all.

gaines adams' production would look pretty good to alot of saints fans right now expecially considering grant's age and injuries the last few years.


http://www.nfl.com/players/charlesgrant/profile?id=GRA397750

i'd be suprised if the saints were not in on the bidding but got narrowly out-bid.

[RaiderNation]

If only talent was based on numbers the draft would be a whole lot easier, now wouldn't it?

Raiders would be in the superbowl if it did

[nofalcons10]

citation needed.

it's harder to find post from 4 years ago than i thought...



ike me? find me one player i've ever written off as a bust after less than three seasons. or admit your dishonest/don't have any idea what you're talking about.


vernon gholson.

you're doing it right now! the guy hasn't played his college position for an entire year at all let alone 3 years.

[nofalcons10]

i don't see anywhere in this thread where i've even implied he's a bust.

here...
yippee? were they all lazy and undisciplined players with no apparent desire to learn?

implying that he has no "desire" to learn to become better than he is at the moment implies that he wants to remain unproductive. suggesting that he wants to remain as unproductive as he has been to this point is suggesting that he wants to make a "bust" of his entire career.

is this the part where you tell me that that's not what you meant?:rolleyes:

[scottyboy]

i'd pick 'rey', but scotty would probably hear 'ray' and then we'd all be in trouble.



i really read that wrong the first time.

My Rutgers sense tingled!
and so did something in my pants

[P-L]

gholston
http://www.*************.com/ratings/dsprofile.php?pyid=10412&draftyear=2008&genpos=DE

williams
http://www.*************.com/ratings/dsprofile.php?pyid=11478&draftyear=2006&genpos=DE


gholston is faster,stronger (37 225 reps) and can jump higher than williams but williams is taller.
What? Gholston was barely faster than Williams, but Williams has 30 lbs on Gholston. Official combine times were 4.65 for Gholston and 4.66 for Williams. Williams' time is much more impressive as he is much heavier. Gholston CANNOT jump higher as evidence by his 35.5' vertical compared to Mario's 40.5" vertical. Gholston put up two more reps than Mario, which is hardly a significant difference. Mario had a faster 20 yard shuttle, again weighing 30 lbs more than Vernon.

[wogitalia]

The franchise tender wouldn't be that much since he was an OLB this year.

Didn't the whole Suggs thing create a hybrid position so that teams couldn't do that?

Also, there are some guys who just can't play or excel at the rushbacker position. If a guy with the work ethics of Kampman can seriously struggle there it is certainly not that strange that a guy like Gholston, the kind who has always gotten by with natural ability, would also struggle.

Whilst there are plenty of red flags for Gholston right now there is also a lot of natural talent and he did have college production against some pretty good OTs. I would love to see him get a chance at 4-3 end before writing him off. For whatever reason, he has not gotten that in New York, I know that Ryan's system allows for it, but Gholston just hasn't gotten on the field. Plenty of good players have not got chances because they didn't get on with their coaches, Cedric Benson is a pretty prominent example right now.

If Gholston is available for a 3rd or 4th, I wouldn't have a problem trading for him for that, he was young when he came out from memory and he has legit 1st round physical tools, that is what 3rd and 4th round picks are for imo, they are when you start looking at guys with character issues or injury histories and taking the chance that they can turn it around and Gholston fits into that well and truly. Give him a couple of years at end and if you have nothing still, so be it, but you are better to have tried than to have not.

[FUNBUNCHER]

as crazy as it was for the bears to pick up the contract of the 2007 overall pick and trade a second rounder?

like i keep saying. gholston has never really had a chance.

I think most Bears fans would tell you the trade for Gaines Adams was idiotic.
Mario Williams had a foot injury his rookie year, a totally different situation than Gholston.

If Gholston is an unmotivated football player, Gregg Williams would ride the guy so hard that Vernon would end up hiding out in the team bathroom with a gun in his mouth.
I agree he's much better suited to play DE in a 4-3 than OLB in a 3-4, so maybe a switch to another team would be just the thing he needs.

At this point I wouldn't give more than a third for him.

[Crickett]

I think most Bears fans would tell you the trade for Gaines Adams was idiotic.
Mario Williams had a foot injury his rookie year, a totally different situation thn Gholston.

If Gholston is an unmotivated football player, Gregg Williams would ride the guy so hard that Vernon would end up hiding out in the team bathroom with a gun in his mouth.
I agree he's much better suited to play DE in a 4-3 than OLB in a 3-4, so maybe a switch to another team would be just the thing he needs.

At this point I wouldn't give more than a third for him.

If the Jets could get a third for Gholston, I'd be ecstatic. But if Rex Ryan couldn't motivate him to try, I don't see why Williams or anyone can.

You say most Bears fans would tell you the Gaines Adams trade was idiotic, well, Gaines Adams has an NFL regular season sack. Vernon Gholston does not.

[FloridaSkinzFan]

you should show the stats of the Redskins DE's when Williams was the coach lol. Redskins never had a pass rush when we had williams as our DC....but we did have ST...sigh

[Flyboy]

Why is this even a thread? Fail.

[wogitalia]

But if Rex Ryan couldn't motivate him to try, I don't see why Williams or anyone can.

Different Strokes for Different Folks. Maybe they clash, who knows, whatever it is, Gholston is in the doghouse and has never gotten a chance under Ryan, it could just be that he is no good in his offense and is much better suited to 4-3 system. It could be he sucks and is a bust. As another team though, his natural skillset and production in college would make me at least consider giving up a 3rd rounder for him, if I ran a 4-3.

[nofalcons10]

What? Gholston was barely faster than Williams, but Williams has 30 lbs on Gholston. Official combine times were 4.65 for Gholston and 4.66 for Williams. Williams' time is much more impressive as he is much heavier. Gholston CANNOT jump higher as evidence by his 35.5' vertical compared to Mario's 40.5" vertical. Gholston put up two more reps than Mario, which is hardly a significant difference. Mario had a faster 20 yard shuttle, again weighing 30 lbs more than Vernon.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vernon_Gholston

gholston had a 41 inch at his pro day and ran a 4.58 there too.

and the fact that mario williams is 30 lbs heavier but gholston is stronger is amazing.

gholston also had more sacks than williams at ohio st.

[nofalcons10]

you should show the stats of the Redskins DE's when Williams was the coach lol. Redskins never had a pass rush when we had williams as our DC....but we did have ST...sigh

andre carter was never as talented as any of the ends mentioned in this discussion either.

[nofalcons10]

Different Strokes for Different Folks. Maybe they clash, who knows, whatever it is, Gholston is in the doghouse and has never gotten a chance under Ryan, it could just be that he is no good in his offense and is much better suited to 4-3 system. It could be he sucks and is a bust. As another team though, his natural skillset and production in college would make me at least consider giving up a 3rd rounder for him, if I ran a 4-3.

if i'm mickey loomis the saints' GM, im thinking that at the very worst we're going to get a younger charles grant out of the deal.

at the best a superstar 12 sack-a-year player.


but the beauty of it is that we are getting a top 10 talent for a bottom 150 or so draft pick.

[Crickett]

if i'm mickey loomis the saints' GM, im thinking that at the very worst we're going to get a younger charles grant out of the deal.

at the best a superstar 12 sack-a-year player.


but the beauty of it is that we are getting a top 10 talent for a bottom 150 or so draft pick.

I wish the Saints GM thought like that too. The Jets could use the extra pick.

[Jvig43]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vernon_Gholston

gholston had a 41 inch at his pro day and ran a 4.58 there too.

and the fact that mario williams is 30 lbs heavier but gholston is stronger is amazing.

gholston also had more sacks than williams at ohio st.


1. Dont use wiki as a source for anything

2. not really. 30 lbs isnt that ridiculous

3. Yes. and how many sacks does Williams have in the NFL and how many does Gholston have? Better yet, how many did each of them have in their second season?

I dont even care about this topic, but your arguments just suck. From everything I have heard from Jets fans, Gholston just doesnt care.

[nofalcons10]

1. Dont use wiki as a source for anything

2. not really. 30 lbs isnt that ridiculous

3. Yes. and how many sacks does Williams have in the NFL and how many does Gholston have? Better yet, how many did each of them have in their second season?

I dont even care about this topic, but your arguments just suck. From everything I have heard from Jets fans, Gholston just doesnt care.


judging by your first bolded comment above, i doubt that you have even read the entire thread.


you just rehashed the same old refuted point. again mario williams played one position his entire career.


you stated that you dont care about the thread so next time if you are too lazy too read the entire thing, please do us a favor and don't re-post arguments from page one.

[no bare feet]

You can waste a 3rd on Gholston and have him tied up for a few years. Grown men don't need motivation, who cares who is in your face telling you what to do when you already made $25 million. Nothing about Gholston would lead me to believe he wants to play. When he has been on the field for the 8 snaps he has, he has looked lost. I understand the scheme change, but someone as gifted as he is shold be able to make some plays.

[no bare feet]

I'd rather spend that 3rd round pick on someone like Jermaine Cunningham or Brandon Lang while tying up much less money. Someone like that with less moeny may have something to work for more so than a Gholston who has 25 mil in his pocket. The intangible factors of giving a younger, more hungry player the chance could prove to be more of a diamond in the rough than risking a 3rd round pick on some money hungry nimrod that hasn't proved anything. Give me the kid that hasn't proved anything without the money tryign to make a name for himself before someone who has the money, made a name for himself (not a good name by any means) and hasn't shown he is willing to prove anything.

[MetSox17]

This thread has given me an epic case of teh lulz.

Also, i might start a QB attractiveness ranking thread. It seems like an awesome idea.

Rough estimate on my top five.

1. Tom Brady
2. Mark Sanchez
3. Matt Leinart
4. Matt Ryan
5. Tony Romo

Last place: David Garrard.

[killxswitch]

A bag of Doritos.

With ants!

Hay guys do yo think the Jets could trade Anne Frank to the Saints for Helen Keller and a 4th?

[fear the elf]

This thread has given me an epic case of teh lulz.

Also, i might start a QB attractiveness ranking thread. It seems like an awesome idea.

Rough estimate on my top five.

1. Tom Brady
2. Mark Sanchez
3. Matt Leinart
4. Matt Ryan
5. Tony Romo

Last place: David Garrard.

Come on. If your going by pure looks, and not factoring in playing time or success, than Brady Quinn has to make the top 5. Give us Browns fans a chance to win something.

[MetSox17]

Come on. If your going by pure looks, and not factoring in playing time or success, than Brady Quinn has to make the top 5. Give us Browns fans a chance to win something.

Not gonna lie, he was in consideration. He's probably the next in line at #6.

[LonghornsLegend]

if i'm mickey loomis the saints' GM, im thinking that at the very worst we're going to get a younger charles grant out of the deal.

at the best a superstar 12 sack-a-year player.


but the beauty of it is that we are getting a top 10 talent for a bottom 150 or so draft pick.


Why don't you just trade for him on your Saints franchise, you'll probably get him cheaper and you can still have fun in your fantasy world? I mean hell, he has big muscles, can jump high and run fast, why wouldn't he be a good DE?!?!!?!?

[nofalcons10]

Why don't you just trade for him on your Saints franchise, you'll probably get him cheaper and you can still have fun in your fantasy world? I mean hell, he has big muscles, can jump high and run fast, why wouldn't he be a good DE?!?!!?!?

wow, i had to have known cowboys fans would take this thread as a slight to their god demarcus ware. should've know that they would misinterpret saying that me saying that gholston has as much potential as their texas favorite d. ware and super mario would get negative responses and would be taken as "gholston is better than Demarcus ware and mario williams".

silly me.

what makes it ironic though is all i could hear on the radio out here in north texas about anthony spencer was how big of a disappointment he had been his first couple of years and has really turned it on this last half of the year and is playing like a probowler.

i just chalk up the snide comments to most of you simply thinking that DE's always play their best in their first year, always have 10 sacks as rookies playing less that 2 quarters at the position a game, and that all college DE's should automatically be able to translate to 3-4 outside linebacker in spite of how ignorant that assumption may be.


hell, i look at tampa with ryan sims and chris hovan starting for them in the middle and think that even if we can get hovan's production for us it would be worth it.



the saints made

anthony hargrove
darren sharper
john vilma
scott fujita
scott shanle
mark simoneaux

into very good player for us after having been written off as washed up (sharper and hargrove), or as untalented players who couldn't work in a 3-4 and believed to be not talented enough to start in a 4-3 either (shanle and simoneax).


85% of our defense is comprised of second-chance players like gholston.

i have every reason to be optimistic.

[stephenson86]

just as a point, isnt williams a safety monster????? as in secondary play is immense, most of smiths sacks were probably coverage

[nofalcons10]

just as a point, isnt williams a safety monster????? as in secondary play is immense, most of smiths sacks were probably coverage


our secondary, when healthy is probably the best we've ever had in new orleans this year.

we can blitz alot because all of our top corners except malcolm jenkins are super-fast and can handle man-coverage.


yes scheme is also a factor but probably not as big of a factor as he plays 4 quarters of 16 games at DE.

what do you think?

[gsorace]

Gholston is in the doghouse and has never gotten a chance under Ryan

He started the first 3 games of the season because Pace was suspended. Nobody noticed because he did absolutely nothing

[nofalcons10]

He started the first 3 games of the season because Pace was suspended. Nobody noticed because he did absolutely nothing

pace himself couldn't stick as a DE in arizona but is a starting LINEBACKER in the jets' 3-4.

look at his early stats in arizona after being drafted to play Defensive end.
http://www.nfl.com/players/calvinpace/profile?id=PAC125680

he was a first rounder and the #18th pick of the first round.

you're building my case and you don't even know it. pace is like an example of gholston's situation backwards.

[gsorace]

Pace plays with his hand in the ground all the time. Try again.

[nofalcons10]

Pace plays with his hand in the ground all the time. Try again.


then why didn't he set the world on fire in arizona in his first 4 years there????

why couldn't he do what he is doing now IN ARIZONA????


listen to yourself, you sound like a petty cardinals fan who felt burned by pace as a first round pick that didn't work out giving negative feed back to jets fans on pace before he really got a shot with the jets at his natural position.

[BandwagonPunditry]

listen to yourself, you sound like a petty cardinals fan who felt burned by pace as a first round pick that didn't work out giving negative feed back to jets fans on pace before he really got a shot with the jets at his natural position.

That Jets sig he's packing's a bit of an odd choice then

------

In all seriousness, whilst I've lol'd much in your thread, I have no idea what your point is.

[Splat]

http://i46.tinypic.com/nyec92.jpg

[nofalcons10]

That Jets sig he's packing's a bit of an odd choice then

------

In all seriousness, whilst I've lol'd much in your thread, I have no idea what your point is.


my point is that defensive ends take time to learn and grow into the position of being a defensive end and that more often than not DEs don't put up tremendous stats in their first or second year, and primarily that this is the reason that vernon golston cannot be written off as a bust at this point because he hasn't really had an opportunity to play the position that made him a great player in college.

calvin pace's stats at DE his first four years:

85 tackles and 7.5 sacks.


he topped those stats in one year (2008) with the jets at linebacker.

now he is a top 4 player on the jets defense at his natural position.

i believe that it can happen for gholston.

[CC.SD]

Dude this is awesome, someone is being violently obnoxious while defending Vernon freaking Gholston. Sail on sailor, you have my seal of approval.

[gsorace]

then why didn't he set the world on fire in arizona in his first 4 years there????

why couldn't he do what he is doing now IN ARIZONA????

How the hell should I know. It's not like i'm lying about him playing in a 3 point stance, watch a Jets game. Rex moves Pace around a lot, he's our only half decent pass rusher.

I'm not even sure what point you're trying to make.

[nofalcons10]

How the hell should I know. It's not like i'm lying about him playing in a 3 point stance, watch a Jets game. Rex moves Pace around a lot, he's our only half decent pass rusher.

I'm not even sure what point you're trying to make.

i'm not saying that you're lying but i just think that your expectations are completely unrealistic.

what do you expect from him?

a sack or 10 tackles every game at DE when he hardly gets 10 snaps?


that's completely unrealistic especially since gholston's game is mostly based on power and not speed and quickness like dwight freeney or demarcus ware.


will smith only had 6 tackles and 1 sack his first 3 games this year playing four quarters at the same position.

http://www.nfl.com/players/willsmith/gamelogs?id=SMI805040


i watched gholston alot at ohio st. and i watched will smith there too. gholston just hasn't had the time to develop run-pass recognition nor his pass rush moves like will smith at charles grant have.

gholston has a much higher ceiling than will smith ever did.

[Caddy]

I don't get this thread at all. Is Vernon Gholston supposed to be a good player?

[Damix]

This thread has given me an epic case of teh lulz.

Also, i might start a QB attractiveness ranking thread. It seems like an awesome idea.

Rough estimate on my top five.

1. Tom Brady
2. Mark Sanchez
3. Matt Leinart
4. Matt Ryan
5. Tony Romo

Last place: David Garrard.

Hilariously enough, hotornot.com had a vote on this and Eli Manning won.

[gsorace]

i'm not saying that you're lying but i just think that your expectations are completely unrealistic.

what do you expect from him?

a sack or 10 tackles every game at DE when he hardly gets 10 snaps?

But he hasn't done ANYTHING! He hasn't contributed to the team AT ALL since he was drafted. It would be one thing if he worked his ass off but struggled because he was playing out of position, but he doesn't even try, I don't think expecting him to at least try is unrealistic.

If you put a cardboard cutout of Vernon Gholston out on the field it would have as much of an impact on the game as the real Vernon Gholston.

I'm going to stop posting in this thread now.

[P-L]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vernon_Gholston

gholston had a 41 inch at his pro day and ran a 4.58 there too.

and the fact that mario williams is 30 lbs heavier but gholston is stronger is amazing.

gholston also had more sacks than williams at ohio st.
You're comparing Gholston's pro day results to Mario Williams' combine results? Ok, whatever. Doesn't it make more sense to compare the players' combine results, seeing as all variables were the same for both players. Do you know anything about the track that Ohio State players run their 40 on at their pro day. The track itself has been notoriously know to shave between .05 and .10 off a player's 40 time.

What do sacks have to do with measurables? Comparing pro day results with combine results and posting irrelevant stats makes you look desperate. Just admit you're wrong and let's move on.

[nofalcons10]

But he hasn't done ANYTHING! He hasn't contributed to the team AT ALL since he was drafted. It would be one thing if he worked his ass off but struggled because he was playing out of position, but he doesn't even try, I don't think expecting him to at least try is unrealistic.

If you put a cardboard cutout of Vernon Gholston out on the field it would have as much of an impact on the game as the real Vernon Gholston.

I'm going to stop posting in this thread now.

you don't think calvin pace struggled his butt off to play defensive end in arizona but just couldn't do it?

aaron Kampman struggled his butt of to play 3-4 linebacker this year but HE JUST CANNOT PLAY THE POSITION.


look i understand what it's like to pick a lineman at the #6 overall pick who just doesn't give a damn and is fat and lazy and has absolutely no talent at all.

johnathan sullivan in 2003 for the saints at #6 overall was a bust, ok?

http://cdn.bleacherreport.com/images_root/slides/photos/000/119/854/53405621.jpg.32658.0_display_image.jpg


this guy sucked in college just like he sucked in the pros and we actually took him one spot ahead of kevin williams who actually had 7.5 sacks that year at oklahoma st. and has gone on to be an all-pro DT with the vikings.

sullivan was drafted based on potential alone but did not produce at all in college. he was given 3 years at the same position to make an impact and could not.

he didn't have the talent to go anywhere or do anything else at any position.


that's really a bust.


gholston just like will smith produced at DE in college but gholston hasn't had the opportunity to play end as much as smith. that's why gholston will not be considered as a bust by many 4-3 teams until he fails to do so.

[nofalcons10]

You're comparing Gholston's pro day results to Mario Williams' combine results? Ok, whatever. Doesn't it make more sense to compare the players' combine results, seeing as all variables were the same for both players. Do you know anything about the track that Ohio State players run their 40 on at their pro day. The track itself has been notoriously know to shave between .05 and .10 off a player's 40 time.

What do sacks have to do with measurables? Comparing pro day results with combine results and posting irrelevant stats makes you look desperate. Just admit you're wrong and let's move on.

he still ran an identical 40 to williams even at the combine so you point is moot.

what does the fact that the track is different at ohio st. have to do with the fact that gholston had a 41 inch. vertical at his pro day and had more reps on the bench than mario williams?

he can still jump as high and is still stronger than mario williams. he put up 10 more reps than ware on the bench too.



i mentioned the sacks in addition to measurables to illustrate his productivity.

most of you are being hypocritical anyway.

not a single one of you here if you were a fan of a 4-3 team 2 years ago can sit here and say that you did not want vernon gholston on your team at DE.

[derza222]

The thing is, Gholston still hasn't really played standing up this season. Ryan, for all of his faults, isn't a bad defensive coach and understands that VG is better playing with his hand in the dirt. That's where he's played when he's been on the field this year. And he's still been largely ineffective.

Yes, expectations were high for him. But he has not been able to work his way onto the field over Bryan Thomas who is not exactly the best player on the Jets. And he has not produced at all, 0 sacks in 2 seasons. Even if the expectation was gets a single sack in his first two seasons, he's underachieving. Undrafted free agent (and rookie this year) Jamaal Westerman has more career sacks (1) than Gholston in half as many games, and he had to change positions to LB too. And he plays more LB spots than Gholston on top of it.

Bottom line, he has tremendous potential, nobody is denying that. His issue isn't his physical abilities or the scheme that he's playing in or coaches not trying to put him in a position to succeed, it seems like the problem is he flat out doesn't care about football.

As a Jets fan, with how disappointing he has been as a player and with his awful contract, I would be happy if the team takes what they can get for him. If he becomes a great player elsewhere then good for him and I was wrong, but I just don't see that happening.

[Damix]

most of you are being hypocritical anyway.

not a single one of you here if you were a fan of a 4-3 team 2 years ago can sit here and say that you did not want vernon gholston on your team at DE.


How is that hypocritical? You can tell a lot in two years.

[MetSox17]

Hilariously enough, hotornot.com had a vote on this and Eli Manning won.

Blind judges? Eli may have a smokin' hot fiancee, but the dude is ugly.

[nofalcons10]

]The thing is, Gholston still hasn't really played standing up this season. [/B]Ryan, for all of his faults, isn't a bad defensive coach and understands that VG is better playing with his hand in the dirt. That's where he's played when he's been on the field this year. And he's still been largely ineffective.

Yes, expectations were high for him. But he has not been able to work his way onto the field over Bryan Thomas who is not exactly the best player on the Jets. And he has not produced at all, 0 sacks in 2 seasons. Even if the expectation was gets a single sack in his first two seasons, he's underachieving. Undrafted free agent (and rookie this year) Jamaal Westerman has more career sacks (1) than Gholston in half as many games, and he had to change positions to LB too. And he plays more LB spots than Gholston on top of it.

Bottom line, he has tremendous potential, nobody is denying that. His issue isn't his physical abilities or the scheme that he's playing in or coaches not trying to put him in a position to succeed, it seems like the problem is he flat out doesn't care about football.

As a Jets fan, with how disappointing he has been as a player and with his awful contract, I would be happy if the team takes what they can get for him. If he becomes a great player elsewhere then good for him and I was wrong, but I just don't see that happening.


you guys simply do not play a base 4-3 like the saints do. there is no possible way you can sit here and tell me that he plays as much DE as the saints DEs do.

you're conflating his lack of production with lack of desire and that is a huge injustice.

do you think that calvin pace, cedric benson, and darren sharper simply want it more now than they did with their former teams?

that's ridiculous.

[Damix]

Blind judges? Eli may have a smokin' hot fiancee, but the dude is ugly.


I did say "Hilariously enough."

[nofalcons10]

How is that hypocritical? You can tell a lot in two years.

so you're telling me that gholston has played two entire years exclusively at DE, right?

[Saints-Tigers]

He has to be ******* with us right now.

[Crickett]

He has to be ******* with us right now.

Man I hope not. This thread is awesome sauce.

[MichaelJordanEberle (sabf)]

Not a single one of you here who was a fan of a team without a QB of the future eleven years ago can sit here and say they did not want Ryan Leaf on their team at QB.

[CC.SD]

Really, this is the direction we're going in. **** it.

[MichaelJordanEberle (sabf)]

feel free to redirect to a discussion of massive, late season failures.

And annual traditions of trading the best player on your team for picks and subsequently blowing those picks.

[nofalcons10]

Not a single one of you here who was a fan of a team without a QB of the future eleven years ago can sit here and say they did not want Ryan Leaf on their team at QB.

at least leaf got to start an entire game at QB and only QB. he started 21 games at qb actually.

when has that happened for gholston?

you guys are hilarious.

[yourfavestoner]

This thread makes me smile.

[MichaelJordanEberle (sabf)]

at least leaf got to start an entire game at QB and only QB. he started 21 games at qb actually.

when has that happened for gholston?

you guys are hilarious.

You do realize that there is very little difference between rushbacker and RDE, right? And that a coach, especially a smart one like Rex Ryan, would adapt his scheme to fit his playmakers, right? Please tell me you understand that. If Rex Ryan had some great gem of a pass rusher buried on his bench, I guarantee you he would find a way to use him. I guarantee you that. Instead, Gholston has

Zero.
Career.
Sacks.

He's a bum, and you're delusional for thinking he isn't a bum.

[nofalcons10]

darren sharper? really? you mean the guy who was a 4 time pro bowler and an all-pro before he ever got to the saints? absolutely brilliant comparison.[

not as brilliant as you not knowing that he played strong safety for minnesota last year after they signed madieu williams to play free safety because they thought that sharper was too old to play anymore.

he had only 1 int last year. his worst INT total in 11 years.

[yourfavestoner]

not as brilliant as you not knowing that he played strong safety for minnesota last year after they signed madieu williams to play free safety because they thought that sharper was too old to play anymore.

he had only 1 int last year. his worst INT total in 11 years.

So does New Orleans have something magical in the water that makes defensive players better over there?

[nofalcons10]

You do realize that there is very little difference between rushbacker and RDE, right? And that a coach, especially a smart one like Rex Ryan, would adapt his scheme to fit his playmakers, right? Please tell me you understand that. If Rex Ryan had some great gem of a pass rusher buried on his bench, I guarantee you he would find a way to use him. I guarantee you that. Instead, Gholston has

Zero.
Career.
Sacks.

He's a bum, and you're delusional for thinking he isn't a bum.

just like dom capers has made aaron kampman shine in green bay, right?

yeah......

[Crickett]

i agree. the fact that he had to play special teams completely invalidates any argument ever against him.

Especially since he'd definitely start in New Orleans, never ever play special teams and break the single season sack record with........ 50. :D :D

[nofalcons10]

So does New Orleans have something magical in the water that makes defensive players better over there?

nah, sean payton just doesn't try to manufacture players.

i dont think that he's ever drafted a player yet that has had to make a position change from their natural position in college.

[MichaelJordanEberle (sabf)]

just like dom capers has made aaron kampman shine in green bay, right?

yeah......

Aaron Kampman isn't Vernon Gholston. There's a much bigger difference between a pure LDE like Kampman and an RDE like Gholston than there is between an RDE and a rush linebacker. Again, Jets fans have said repeatedly that Rex routinely sends the defense out with the rush backer having his hand in the dirt(read: He becomes a DE). With Kampman, he seems to be one of the guys who can only excel with his hand in the dirt. No problem there. Gholston couldn't excel if he was allowed to stand right next to the QB when the ball is snapped. Gholston sucks, dude. There's a reason he has zero career sacks. Can you name a pass rusher who went in the first round, had no sacks his first two years and became even a decent player? Go ahead, I'll wait.

[no bare feet]

Vernon Gholston will be bussing your tables while nofalc is washing the dishes in 4 years. Vernon is a better busser because he can get to the tables faster. Vernon does not want to buss tables so they got him on mop duty now. But I would want him to manage my local Popeye's franchise.

[nofalcons10]

Aaron Kampman isn't Vernon Gholston. There's a much bigger difference between a pure LDE like Kampman and an RDE like Gholston than there is between an RDE and a rush linebacker. Again, Jets fans have said repeatedly that Rex routinely sends the defense out with the rush backer having his hand in the dirt(read: He becomes a DE). With Kampman, he seems to be one of the guys who can only excel with his hand in the dirt. No problem there. Gholston couldn't excel if he was allowed to stand right next to the QB when the ball is snapped. Gholston sucks, dude. There's a reason he has zero career sacks. Can you name a pass rusher who went in the first round, had no sacks his first two years and became even a decent player? Go ahead, I'll wait.

again you simply don't know what you're talking about.

gholston played alot at LE at ohio st!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YE2y_ypR9wQ

you obviously never watched the kid play. LOL.

that's the entire reason that i started the thread. i wanted to find a talented replacement for charles grant.

and please, will one of you stop responding with the old "he plays alot with his hand and the dirt" garbage. i repeat, THERE IS NO WAY HE gets as many snaps at dE as mario williams or will smith. none. they still run a base 3-4.

the saints have 3-4 sub-packages that we use 8% of the time with McCray as a linebacker but mCray will never receive the snaps there that calvin pace or lamar woodley does.


and please... that is a silly question because that's apples and oranges. we're talking about players like pace and kampman who excel at their natural positions who have been given the opportunity to do so.

[MichaelJordanEberle (sabf)]

again you simply don't know what you're talking about.

gholston played alot at LE at ohio st!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YE2y_ypR9wQ

you obviously never watched the kid play. LOL.

that's the entire reason that i started the thread. i wanted to find a talented replacement for charles grant.

and please, will one of you stop responding with the old "he plays alot with his hand and the dirt" garbage. i repeat, THERE IS NO WAY HE gets as many snaps at dE as mario williams or will smith. none. they still run a base 4-3.

the saints have 3-4 sub-packages that we use 8% of the time with McCray as a linebacker but mCray will never receive the snaps there that calvin pace of lamar woodley does.


and please... that is a silly question because that's apples and oranges. we're talking about players like pace and kampman who excel at their natural positions who have been given the opportunity to do so.

He played LE in college, but everyone knows he was a pure blind side rusher in the pros. College isn't the same as NFL in that regard. And again, I know he doesn't get as many snaps as Mario Williams or Will Smith. But I'd expect him to get one ******* sack by now. Just one. Christ, even Jamaal Anderson had a sack by now. Gholston is a bust, even the Jets fans in this thread are saying as much. You must be related to him. That's really the only explanation.

[rchrd]

This thread has given me an epic case of teh lulz.

Also, i might start a QB attractiveness ranking thread. It seems like an awesome idea.

Rough estimate on my top five.

1. Tom Brady
2. Mark Sanchez
3. Matt Leinart
4. Matt Ryan
5. Tony Romo

Last place: David Garrard.

http://www.creepygif.com/images/full/10.gif

:)

[nofalcons10]

He played LE in college, but everyone knows he was a pure blind side rusher in the pros. College isn't the same as NFL in that regard. And again, I know he doesn't get as many snaps as Mario Williams or Will Smith. But I'd expect him to get one ******* sack by now. Just one. Christ, even Jamaal Anderson had a sack by now. Gholston is a bust, even the Jets fans in this thread are saying as much. You must be related to him. That's really the only explanation.

gholston has speed but doesn't have that first step of freeney, ware, george selvie (2007), simeon rice, or robert mathis.

he is more powerful than he is quick. always has been. just like will smith.

he's stronger than charles grant and is a better athlete all around than grant ever was.

typically power guys need more refinement of their technique to set up offensive tackles and to get sacks than speed guys do with reggie white being the lone exception i can think of.

like mario williams, gholston is a power DE. ends like dwight freeny (who runs 4.4) marcus howard (colts) who clocked a 4.45 can just come in and play rush specialist better than several power guys because they are so quick.


gholston, smith and mario williams never closed this fast in college.
http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-rookie-of-the-week/09000d5d80db4e92/WK-17-Marcus-Howard-highlights

[LonghornsLegend]

wow, i had to have known cowboys fans would take this thread as a slight to their god demarcus ware. should've know that they would misinterpret saying that me saying that gholston has as much potential as their texas favorite d. ware and super mario would get negative responses and would be taken as "gholston is better than Demarcus ware and mario williams".

What in the hell are you talking about? This thread has NOTHING to do with Demarcus Ware, or Texas, or any of those silly responses you just came up with. When were they even mentioned? When did I mention them? Gholston has nothing to do with Ware at all, but at this point I'm starting to think your just getting delusional and running out of things to say, because you've repeated over and over how the Saints have turned so many players into studs.


Maybe you should tell us that again, it'll surely make sense eventually.

[derza222]

again you simply don't know what you're talking about.

gholston played alot at LE at ohio st!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YE2y_ypR9wQ

you obviously never watched the kid play. LOL.

that's the entire reason that i started the thread. i wanted to find a talented replacement for charles grant.

and please, will one of you stop responding with the old "he plays alot with his hand and the dirt" garbage. i repeat, THERE IS NO WAY HE gets as many snaps at dE as mario williams or will smith. none. they still run a base 3-4.

the saints have 3-4 sub-packages that we use 8% of the time with McCray as a linebacker but mCray will never receive the snaps there that calvin pace or lamar woodley does.


and please... that is a silly question because that's apples and oranges. we're talking about players like pace and kampman who excel at their natural positions who have been given the opportunity to do so.

There's no way he gets that many snaps because he hasn't shown the requisite ability to get onto the field. I mean listen, I get it, I'm a Jets fan and I'll even admit that I wanted him that draft. Great measurables and he had really nice production that one year in college. But the fact of the matter is he has done nothing to prove he is an NFL caliber football player despite significant efforts to get the most out of him and his physical abilities.

You can't know why exactly he hasn't produced, but blaming it all on the scheme is too easy. The Jets run a hybrid scheme that utilizes 3-4 and 4-3 looks. If he's so great, why is he not getting on the field or producing at all? I get he's not getting snaps in the 4-3 as much as other guys who play in base 4-3 defenses, but he hasn't been able to get on the field much and hasn't done anything significant when he has. There have really been no flashes, he even had some chances at sacks his rookie year and didn't have the burst to close.

So I'm telling you, as a Jets fan, I'd take what I can get for him. Obviously that's not how negotiations go, and may he does better in a different scheme, but I just don't see it.

[nofalcons10]

What in the hell are you talking about? This thread has NOTHING to do with Demarcus Ware, or Texas, or any of those silly responses you just came up with. When were they even mentioned? When did I mention them? Gholston has nothing to do with Ware at all, but at this point I'm starting to think your just getting delusional and running out of things to say, because you've repeated over and over how the Saints have turned so many players into studs.


Maybe you should tell us that again, it'll surely make sense eventually.


you negative repped me and told me to "stop comparing gholston to the best Defensive end in the game."

i never compared their pro stats, just their physical ability.

[Crickett]

you negative repped me and told me to "stop comparing ware to the best Defensive end in the game."

i never compared their pro stats, just their physical ability.

So comparing their physical ability is in no way a comparison between them?

:D

[nofalcons10]

There's no way he gets that many snaps because he hasn't shown the requisite ability to get onto the field. I mean listen, I get it, I'm a Jets fan and I'll even admit that I wanted him that draft. Great measurables and he had really nice production that one year in college. But the fact of the matter is he has done nothing to prove he is an NFL caliber football player despite significant efforts to get the most out of him and his physical abilities.

You can't know why exactly he hasn't produced, but blaming it all on the scheme is too easy. The Jets run a hybrid scheme that utilizes 3-4 and 4-3 looks. If he's so great, why is he not getting on the field or producing at all? I get he's not getting snaps in the 4-3 as much as other guys who play in base 4-3 defenses, but he hasn't been able to get on the field much and hasn't done anything significant when he has. There have really been no flashes, he even had some chances at sacks his rookie year and didn't have the burst to close.

So I'm telling you, as a Jets fan, I'd take what I can get for him. Obviously that's not how negotiations go, and may he does better in a different scheme, but I just don't see it.
i'm not that concerned about sacks as i am concerned about him possibly developing into a well rounded replacement for grant.

i even stated earlier that i would've taken gaines adams if we could've had him because we are going to be in big trouble next year with grant's age and $7 million dollar cap figure and no one to replace him with.

i like gholston's strength to hold up against RT's in the run as well as his potential as a pass rusher. playing 4-3 end is as much about playing the run as it is the pass. osi umenyora was benched this year for failing to stop the run and he is a household name. 6-7 sacks a year would match many of charles grant and will smith's best years in N.O. that's fine with me. just as long as he has the strength to support the run as well.


i'm confident that williams would find some way to use his strength at least at LE. hell if we could get him for a 7th rounder that would be great. it's better than starting bobby mccray there next year or spending a high round pick on a player.

[nofalcons10]

So comparing their physical ability is in no way a comparison between them?

:D

they do compare physically.

ware is much quicker and can play in space whereas gholston is much stronger and cannot.

[MetSox17]

Thank Teebus that njx didn't lock this thread. There's been some epic lawlage in here. I have a feeling this thread will be remembered for a long time.

[LonghornsLegend]

you negative repped me and told me to "stop comparing ware to the best Defensive end in the game."

i never compared their pro stats, just their physical ability.

Gholston is the best defensive end in the game??

[nofalcons10]

Gholston is the best defensive end in the game??

i never said any such thing.

you made that assertion in your pm/rep.

the funny thing is that i actually agree with you. ware and freeney are actually interchangeable as the best DE in the game in my book.

their speed sets them apart from everyone else who plays the position.

[descendency]

If I were betting, I'd bet on him being cut.

[nofalcons10]

Gholston is the best defensive end in the game??

**** i meant that you said ware.

just caught that.

[nofalcons10]

If I were betting, I'd bet on him being cut.

hope so.

we'd be the first team in line for his services just like with anthony hargrove.

[Damix]

Very rarely is 1 person right while every single other person is wrong.

I'm not saying, I'm just saying...

[descendency]

hope so.

we'd be the first team in line for his services just like with anthony hargrove.

If you look at his production, you can tell he either has zero work ethic or zero talent. Gholston has a total of like 24 career tackles. in 32 games. 0 sacks.

He is among one of the top 20 biggest busts of all time. He has contributed nothing.

[nofalcons10]

yeah, but truth is still truth even in the minority of one.

[CC.SD]

yeah, but truth is still truth even in the minority of one.

http://i650.photobucket.com/albums/uu226/ccsdccsd/main.gif

[nofalcons10]

If you look at his production, you can tell he either has zero work ethic or zero talent. Gholston has a total of like 24 career tackles. in 32 games. 0 sacks.

He is among one of the top 20 biggest busts of all time. He has contributed nothing.


.....or that he needs more time to be developed at the right position.

like i said, calvin pace had 85 tackles and 7.5 sacks in 4 years at DE.

that's an average of 21 tackles and 1.8 sacks a year for four years. there isn't a single jet fan here that would call linebacker calvin pace a bust though.

[Damix]

yeah, but truth is still truth even in the minority of one.

I'll just leave this here.

http://meltyourfaceoff.files.wordpress.com/2007/10/tin-foil-hat.jpg

[nofalcons10]

you forgot this

http://lh6.ggpht.com/_K6IxDwgzpKk/SS-uCjvEfjI/AAAAAAAABzQ/9M1Qj5f1GMA/groupthink_thumb%5B3%5D.jpg

[FUNBUNCHER]

.....or that he needs more time to be developed at the right position.

like i said, calvin pace had 85 tackles and 7.5 sacks in 4 years at DE.

that's an average of 21 tackles and 1.8 sacks a year for four years. there isn't a single jet fan here that would call linebacker calvin pace a bust though.
You're right on about Pace being a huge disappointment in Arizona, but a stud in NY.

I think I'd give Gholston one more chance with a different NFL team before I closed the book on his career.
A 4-3 team would be ideal, yet it's still odd from a distance to see a guy with his raw physical tools not be able to force himself into the front 7 rotation.

I know in Redskins land, the season before DC Gregg Williams left for Jacksonville, he benched Lavar Arrington and had a ST LB taking his snaps. For a LB in Williams' defensive schemes, freelancing is a no-no, even if that OLB is the best athlete on the team. Now many of us diehard Skins fans were perplexed as to why these two couldn't resolve their differences and get Lavar back on the field, mistakes or not.

Sometimes a player's opportunities come down to his relationship with his coach, but if Gholston can't click with Rex Ryan, the most player friendly HC IMO in the entire NFL, then Gholston's prospects don't look that great anywhere else in the league.

This offseason will be critical for Gholston, IMO.
HE either needs to get his head on straight, or his agent needs to broker a trade.

[Brent]

well sure, but i'm just going from face... i think if he buzzed that down...

but yeah, cushing would be perfect.
I would say Rey Rey but we all know guidos hate minorities.

Hilariously enough, hotornot.com had a vote on this and Eli Manning won.
You would know this ;)

it had the feel of a kickmikehaas thread.
Who has Gholston's pop warner stats?

[diabsoule]

I can't believe this topic is still being discussed.

[diabsoule]

"this is a video my dad made of me running the 40"

Your dad made one of you too?

[Brent]

"this is a video my dad made of me running the 40"
was he the one that also claimed to play for Oregon State? if so, I just want everyone to know I was actually the 12th man at A&M.

[nofalcons10]

You're right on about Pace being a huge disappointment in Arizona, but a stud in NY.

I think I'd give Gholston one more chance with a different NFL team before I closed the book on his career.
A 4-3 team would be ideal, yet it's still odd from a distance to see a guy with his raw physical tools not be able to force himself into the front 7 rotation.

I know in Redskins land, the season before DC Gregg Williams left for Jacksonville, he benched Lavar Arrington and had a ST LB taking his snaps. For a LB in Williams' defensive schemes, freelancing is a no-no, even if that OLB is the best athlete on the team. Now many of us diehard Skins fans were perplexed as to why these two couldn't resolve their differences and get Lavar back on the field, mistakes or not.

Sometimes a player's opportunities come down to his relationship with his coach, but if Gholston can't click with Rex Ryan, the most player friendly HC IMO in the entire NFL, then Gholston's prospects don't look that great anywhere else in the league.

This offseason will be critical for Gholston, IMO.
HE either needs to get his head on straight, or his agent needs to broker a trade.


see i remember when charles grant and darren howard were rookies and could not sniff out a screen and would let running backs get behind them and catch passes for 25yards, and when they'd take bad angles on michael vick and lose outside contain or inside contain by being too aggressive rushing the passer and not playing the run well enough.

alot of playing defensive end is the mental aspect of getting the position down and run-pass recognition and developing counter moves. which is why i can't seem to understand why rex ryan would give gholston more snaps in the 4-3 than shaun ellis and marques douglas who have more experience there.


i've noticed alot of posters above make the mistake in thinking that gholston was primarily a speed-rusher at ohio state but he is a power end who is best utilized on the left side and is stronger than he is fast. i really think that gholston if given the opportunity could excel against RTs as a LDE. RTs are less nimble than LTs and can be out-quicked and knocked of balance alot easier than left tackles.

i saw justin tuck at norte dame. he was never as good as gholston, let alone talented but he starts for the other n.y. team which i why i can't reconcile the talk of "he's not good enough" with what i saw with my own two eyes.

[nofalcons10]

i saw donovan mcnabb at syracuse. he was just never as good as akili smith.

ah, but have you seen tuck alternating back and fourth at two positions like gholston or did he learn behind one of the best DE's in history AT DE for three years before finally getting his shot to start 16 games?

that's the real question.

[Crickett]

see i remember when charles grant and darren howard were rookies and could not sniff out a screen and would let running backs get behind them and catch passes for 25yards, and when they'd take bad angles on michael vick and lose outside contain or inside contain by being too aggressive rushing the passer and not playing the run well enough.

see i remember when vernon gholston were rookie.... and couldn't....... really do much of anything.


At all.



The only highlight I could find of Gholston as a Jet was a preseason sack where he got to David Carr unblocked.

It was called back because it was a helmet to helmet hit.


alot of playing defensive end is the mental aspect of getting the position down and run-pass recognition and developing counter moves. which is why i can't seem to understand why rex ryan would give gholston more snaps in the 4-3 than shaun ellis and marques douglas who have more experience there.

Wow.

i've noticed alot of posters above make the mistake in thinking that gholston was primarily a speed-rusher at ohio state but he is a power end who is best utilized on the left side and is stronger than he is fast.

And we Jets fans have seen that strength translate to a mighty bull rush that has allowed Vernon Gholston overpower offensive tackles and get to opposing quarterbacks.

Wait.


That's not true at all.

When he engages with an offensive tackle during a passing play, generally he just stands there.


i saw justin tuck at norte dame. he was never as good as gholston, let alone talented but he starts for the other n.y. team which i why i can't reconcile the talk of "he's not good enough" with what i saw with my own two eyes.

I have a guess as to why that is.

I think you're still basing your opinion of him entirely on his career at Ohio State. You seem to be completely disregarding his epic failure as a Jet because well they run a 3-4 and Rex Ryan doesn't put him in every play as though these are reasons why someone drafted primarily for his pass rushing skills has failed to record a single NFL sack in two years.

[Crickett]

i saw donovan mcnabb at syracuse. he was just never as good as akili smith.
ah, but have you seen tuck alternating back and fourth at two positions like gholston or did he learn behind one of the best DE's in history AT DE for three years before finally getting his shot to start 16 games?

that's the real question.


Are you just copying and pasting arguments from some other thread on some other forum? :confused:


And yes, Tuck did alternate between LDE and UT.

[nofalcons10]

When he engages with an offensive tackle during a passing play, generally he just stands there.




I have a guess as to why that is.

I think you're still basing your opinion of him entirely on his career at Ohio State. You seem to be completely disregarding his epic failure as a Jet because well they run a 3-4 and Rex Ryan doesn't put him in every play as though these are reasons why someone drafted primarily for his pass rushing skills has failed to record a single NFL sack in two years.[/QUOTE]


you're right. guilty as charged.

i'm disregarding what you are saying. mario williams was in every play for the texas at DE for 4 quarters for 16 games and only registered 4.5. sacks as a rookie.
that is a fact, sorry.

i'm not deterred from my interest in him one bit because of what you are telling me because i know that it takes power guys like gholston time to develop their game.

[nofalcons10]

that's not the real question at all. i want to know why akili smith never got a single season worth of starts and then was out of the nfl after four years. he was the best qb i've ever seen in college.

well tell me this, didn't akili smith at least get to start and finish a few games at his college position unlike gholston hasn't in a 4-3?

like i said earlier, will smith has 13 sacks this year but through 12 consecutive quarters through our first 3 games he only had 6 tackles and a sack.


you seem to want gholston to have 20 sacks, 5 ints, 50 TFL, 6 PD, and 3 safeties in the same span.

[nofalcons10]

Are you just copying and pasting arguments from some other thread on some other forum? :confused:


And yes, Tuck did alternate between LDE and UT.

so tuck is listed as a UT on the giants depth chart is what you are telling me?

i hope that is what you are saying because gholston is definitely listed as a linebacker for the jets.

[Crickett]

so tuck is listed as a UT on the giants depth chart is what you are telling me?


No, I'm telling you that Justin Tuck before he started a 16 game season alternated between undertackle and left defensive end.

I know, because i said this.

And yes, Tuck did alternate between LDE and UT.

[the decider13]

well tell me this, didn't akili smith at least get to start and finish a few games at his college position unlike gholston hasn't in a 4-3?

like i said earlier, will smith has 13 sacks this year but through 12 consecutive quarters through our first 3 games he only had 6 tackles and a sack.


you seem to want gholston to have 20 sacks, 5 ints, 50 TFL, 6 PD, and 3 safeties in the same span.

I'd like more than 30 career tackles and zero sacks.

To be totally fair though, all those tackles were on special teams. Top five pick for a super athletic special teamer doesn't seem like a good deal.

But I forgot...New Orleans has special career rejuvination water that will give Gholston pass rushing moves besides the bull rush. He'll also have a better defensive mind than Rex Ryan. Oh wait...

[nofalcons10]

what does akili smith getting college starts have to do with anything? he certainly didn't get those snaps in the same offense run in cincinnati, so it's really not altogether relevant.

donovan mcnabb just finished throwing for 60%/3900/23/11, even though he started out throwing 49%/948/8/7.

you seem to think akili smith should've thrown for 4000 yards and 43 touchdowns by year 3.

this is a completely asinine and incomparable argument that you have resorted to now.

smith went to training camp, played entire preseason games, and started and finished entire games at quarterback, had his shot and failed.

gholston has done none of those things.


ok, i get it. you hate vernon gholston. you cannot be any clearer.

[nofalcons10]

No, I'm telling you that Justin Tuck before he started a 16 game season alternated between undertackle and left defensive end.

I know, because i said this.

half his snaps at uptackle you say?:rolleyes: yeah, okay.


even if this were the case it would still be a poor comparison because tuck had several advantages gholston hasn't had to this point.

he's started and finished an entire game at DE and gotten the chance to study his opponent and the blocking scheme he is competing against and play against it an entire game. he went through training camp and preseason at DE, and he got a chance to learn behind Strahan, one of the best DEs ever.

[nofalcons10]

I'd like more than 30 career tackles and zero sacks.

To be totally fair though, all those tackles were on special teams. Top five pick for a super athletic special teamer doesn't seem like a good deal.

But I forgot...New Orleans has special career rejuvination water that will give Gholston pass rushing moves besides the bull rush. He'll also have a better defensive mind than Rex Ryan. Oh wait...

well have you seen justin tuck's statistics his first two years?

41 tackles and a 1 sack.

http://www.nfl.com/players/justintuck/profile?id=TUC056287

and that's at defensive end.

[Brent]

he was the best qb i've ever seen in college.
wasnt he the starter at Oregon for one season? sounds like AJ Feeley; no, Tony Graziani; oh wait, Jason Fife...

[FUNBUNCHER]

alot of playing defensive end is the mental aspect of getting the position down and run-pass recognition and developing counter moves. which is why i can't seem to understand why rex ryan would give gholston more snaps in the 4-3 than shaun ellis and marques douglas who have more experience there.


i've noticed alot of posters above make the mistake in thinking that gholston was primarily a speed-rusher at ohio state but he is a power end who is best utilized on the left side and is stronger than he is fast. i really think that gholston if given the opportunity could excel against RTs as a LDE. RTs are less nimble than LTs and can be out-quicked and knocked of balance alot easier than left tackles.

i saw justin tuck at norte dame. he was never as good as gholston, let alone talented but he starts for the other n.y. team which i why i can't reconcile the talk of "he's not good enough" with what i saw with my own two eyes.

I'd say that Gholston is a combo speed rusher/power DE, similar to Brian Orakpo. At OSU, from what I saw, he was a guy who got into the backfield based simply on the fact he was so fast and probably stronger than any Olineman he went up against, but he played with virtually no technique.

I wouldn't say Gholston outclassed Justin Tuck as an NFL prospect; Tuck was very active at ND, the best player on the Irish team and made a ton of plays for that squad.

I remember Gholston had a rep in college for playing with inconsistent effort and his play running hot/cold. Some OSU fans felt Gholston should have had 20+ sacks his junior year, not 14.

I'm not a Jets fan and haven't watch Gholston play much as a pro, but generally speaking, a franchise will invest huge amounts of time in developing a high draft pick with Gholston's tools.

IMO there's more going on with VG than his slow development on the field.
That said, I'd still take a flyer on him.

[Caddy]

Gaines Adams > Vernon Gholston

[RealityCheck]

The Saints could give their 2nd and the Jets give their 3rd.

[nofalcons10]

]I'd say that Gholston is a combo speed rusher/power DE, similar to Brian Orakpo[/B]. At OSU, from what I saw, he was a guy who got into the backfield based simply on the fact he was so fast and probably stronger than any Olineman he went up against, but he played with virtually no technique.

I wouldn't say Gholston outclassed Justin Tuck as an NFL prospect; Tuck was very active at ND, the best player in the Irish team and made a ton of plays for that squad.

I remember Gholston had a rep in college for playing with inconsistent effort and his play running hot/cold. Some OSU fans felt Gholston should have had 20+ sacks his junior year, not 14.

I'm not a Jets fan and haven't watch Gholston play much as a pro, but generally speaking, a franchise will invest huge amounts of time in developing a high draft pick with Gholston's tools.

IMO there's more going on with VG than his slow development on the field.
That said, I'd still take a flyer on him.


even as a gholston apologist i would have to agree. gholston got by off of pure talent. he always was more agile than will smith and justin tuck from what i remember.

you're absolutely right.

he was alot like brian orakpo physically but orakpo really out-classed him in technique. orakpo really out-classed mario williams in technique for that matter too at n.c state.

tuck's production at times did match gholston's at ohio st. but i really can't say that he ever had first round talent as an all-around end. he had alot of sacks but i never really projected him to be the force against the run that gholston could be and he never had gholston's speed either. tuck was more of a try-hard player who payed alot of attention to detail like orakpo.

i always placed tuck on the same level skills-wise as matt roth from iowa.

either way though, tuck played in 20 games his first two years and only had 40 tackles and 1 sack and this was in a 4-3.

gholston may just need playing time and time to develop his technique. even orakpo started the first two games of the season with no sacks and ended the last three with no sack.

you can't have a sack and 10 tackles every game especially when you don't have the opportunities to play that other 4-3 ends have.

[nofalcons10]

no, it isn't. it's identical.

smith HELD OUT of training camp, didn't learn the playbook, then showed no apparent desire over four seasons to learn it. to the point he couldn't even play in the CFL. gosh this sounds familiar.

ok, i get it. you think vernon gholston is the greatest player of all time. you cannot be any clearer.

he still played several entire games at quarterback even in his rookie year.

[yourfavestoner]

So you think Gholston would be an effective LE at 6-3 265 lbs? Sorry, i'm just not seeing it.

[yourfavestoner]

ah, but have you seen tuck alternating back and fourth at two positions like gholston or did he learn behind one of the best DE's in history AT DE for three years before finally getting his shot to start 16 games?

that's the real question.

Um, as a matter of fact, we all watched him damn near win a Superbowl MVP while switching back and forth from two positions.

This has way more to do with simply not fitting into the scheme, dude. If he's going to be good, we'd have seen him flash *something* by now. A flash at least. He hasn't shown that he's capable of doing, well, anything in the NFL.

[nofalcons10]

So you think Gholston would be an effective LE at 6-3 265 lbs? Sorry, i'm just not seeing it.

robert mathis 6-2 245
aaron kampman 6'4 260
kris kelsay 6'4 261
derrick burgess 6'2 260
greg spires-6'1 265

threre are countless examples.

[nofalcons10]

Um, as a matter of fact, we all watched him damn near win a Superbowl MVP while switching back and forth from two positions.

This has way more to do with simply not fitting into the scheme, dude. If he's going to be good, we'd have seen him flash *something* by now. A flash at least. He hasn't shown that he's capable of doing, well, anything in the NFL.


and he did absolutely as bad as gholston his first two seasons despite playing 20 games his first two seasons.define something? what, sacks??
some defensive ends get alot of sacks early but that doesn't mean that they had any right starting. charles grant had 7 sacks as a rookie but he only started because we had no one else to really take over for him. he was useless against the run.

extremely terrible.

you should know how that is, didn't the giants sit osi umenyora down this year for the same lack of discipline?


and how much of this "something" can you really expect to see when he has never even played an entire game at the position.

[Damix]

Tuck barely played his first 2 seasons...mostly ST.

[nofalcons10]

Tuck barely played his first 2 seasons...mostly ST.

you mean he played on special teams like gholston and has subsequently turned into a beast for his team????:eek:

imagine that.

[Crickett]

half his snaps at uptackle you say?:rolleyes: yeah, okay.

Yeah, I didn't say that either, although it very well might have been true in 2007.

You see, here's the thing. I actually watched Tuck in 2007. And I watched Gholston as a Jet. You on the other hand have made it clear the professional careers of at least Gholston is irrelevant to you.





well have you seen justin tuck's statistics his first two years?

41 tackles and a 1 sack.

And yes, still better than Gholston statistically. Especially given that Tuck had less games played and less starts through his first two seasons.


you mean he played on special teams like gholston and has subsequently turned into a beast for his team????:eek:

imagine that.

Here's the difference though. Tuck was a backup behind as you put it, one of the best DE's to ever play. When he was integrated into the defense lineup alternating between DE and UT, he put up 10 sacks despite only starting two games in 2007. Gholston on the other hand in the Jets starting defense for three games did absolutely nothing.

[GangGreen]

I think Gholston's struggles aren't really that simple. Put it this way: he's been with two coaches in his two years. At the beginning of both of those years, both coaches showed a tremendous amount of excitement and hype for him, yet he's managed to get into both of their doghouses before the season even starts. That isn't normal.

I understand if you think the 3-4 isn't right for him, but it's not as simple is that. The jets play four down linemen A LOT. They have to. Ever since Kris Jenkins was hurt it's the only way for the defense to work. However, even in this packages, Gholston never sees the field. The coaching staff has already lost so much faith in him that they don't even trust him enough to put him in. You could play a drinking game with every time you see Gholston in the game.....and it would suck.

[nofalcons10]

Yeah, I didn't say that either, although it very well might have been true in 2007.

You see, here's the thing. I actually watched Tuck in 2007. And I watched Gholston as a Jet. You on the other hand have made it clear the professional careers of at least Gholston is irrelevant to you.



it is irrelevant to me. i could care less what he did at linebacker for you, personally.

i want him as a LDE in my team's 4-3 scheme for 4 quarters a game.

how relevant is calvin pace's "bust" career in arizona to you as a fan of a team that runs a 3-4?





And yes, still better than Gholston statistically. Especially given that Tuck had less games played and less starts through his first two seasons.



that is such a completely weak and flimsy argument and you know it. gholston made his 3 starts at linebacker. it actually says 3 starts on nfl.com but i can only really find one against the texans from other sources.


Here's the difference though. Tuck was a backup behind as you put it, one of the best DE's to ever play. When he was integrated into the defense lineup alternating between DE and UT, he put up 10 sacks despite only starting two games in 2007. Gholston on the other hand in the Jets starting defense for three games did absolutely nothing.

he still got more reps with his hand in the dirt at DE than gholston even if it was in OTAs, minicamp, training camp, the preseason or in actual games.

gholston played primarily linebacker in 2008 and started the year there in 2009 and is still a listed linebacker.

tuck put up 10 sacks in his 3rd year playing many more snaps in the 4-3.

[nofalcons10]

I think Gholston's struggles aren't really that simple. Put it this way: he's been with two coaches in his two years. At the beginning of both of those years, both coaches showed a tremendous amount of excitement and hype for him, yet he's managed to get into both of their doghouses before the season even starts. That isn't normal.

I understand if you think the 3-4 isn't right for him, but it's not as simple is that. The jets play four down linemen A LOT. They have to. Ever since Kris Jenkins was hurt it's the only way for the defense to work. However, even in this packages, Gholston never sees the field. The coaching staff has already lost so much faith in him that they don't even trust him enough to put him in. You could play a drinking game with every time you see Gholston in the game.....and it would suck.

who starts over him in new york in 4-3 alignments and how much experience does that person(s) have at 4-3 end?

his time at linebacker has not helped his progress at DE.

mario williams wasn't a 14 sack a year guy his rookie season (4.5 sacks), now imagine if he had only played spot duty here and there instead of 16 games for 4 quarters.

it takes a lot of hard work and dedication to dominate at 4-3 DE. the game there comes alot easier to speed guys like ware and freeney because they don't have to be the technicians that power ends have to be most of the time. their speed makes up for alot of their flaws that can not be masked as easily for other players who don't have as much.

[MichaelJordanEberle (sabf)]

well have you seen justin tuck's statistics his first two years?

41 tackles and a 1 sack.

http://www.nfl.com/players/justintuck/profile?id=TUC056287

and that's at defensive end.

That's still one more sack than Vernon Gholston.

Also Tuck was a 3rd round pick. When you have a 3rd round pick, you aren't looking for excuses to get him on the field. As a 6th overall pick, even if he was making the rookie mistakes that Howard and Grant and Smith made, they'd let him learn and develop. They're rookie mistakes, and supposedly when someone is talented it's supposed to balance out. But Gholston can't even see the field, and there is no excuse for the 6th overall pick two years ago to not have one single sack.

[nofalcons10]

That's still one more sack than Vernon Gholston.

Also Tuck was a 3rd round pick. When you have a 3rd round pick, you aren't looking for excuses to get him on the field. As a 6th overall pick, even if he was making the rookie mistakes that Howard and Grant and Smith made, they'd let him learn and develop. They're rookie mistakes, and supposedly when someone is talented it's supposed to balance out. But Gholston can't even see the field, and there is no excuse for the 6th overall pick two years ago to not have one single sack.

you hold the fact that mangini and your war room selected gholston at #6 against him. it's not gholston's fault that your coach screwed up or that he went as high as he did, or that he plays in the wrong scheme. the mistake of projecting a great college defensive end as a pro OLB rests solely on the shoulders of the jets' brain-trust.

no, in grant's case it balanced out to nothing. given a choice we would've had a veteran to groom grant behind. will smith had the luxury of learning behind darren howard for a year and tuck had the luxury of learning behind one of the best ever.

why would we have wanted to play a rookie who is undisciplined if the giants benched an undisciplined ex-probowler?

[Crickett]

you hold the fact that mangini and your war room selected gholston at #6 against him. it's not gholston's fault that your coach screwed up or that he went as high as he did, or that he plays in the wrong scheme. the mistake of projecting a great college defensive end as a pro OLB rests solely on the shoulders of the jets' brain-trust.

It is his fault that he has shown no ability to get after the quarterback in the 3-4 or 4-3 or much of anything else. His lack of effort isn't Eric Mangini or Rex Ryan's fault. It is his own.

[nofalcons10]

It is his fault that he has shown no ability to get after the quarterback in the 3-4 or 4-3 or much of anything else. His lack of effort isn't Eric Mangini or Rex Ryan's fault. It is his own.

in your opinion, do you think that the increase in mario williams' sack total between 2006-2007 was because he simply wanted it more in 2007 or that he was just a complete lazy scoundrel in 2006?

[Crickett]

in your opinion, do you think that the increase in mario williams' sack total between 2006-2007 was because he simply wanted it more in 2007 or that he was just a complete lazy scoundrel in 2006?

No, but I do think Vernon Gholston's lack of a sack total between 2008-2009 is because he simply didn't want it.

And as much as you might wish it, Mario Williams and Vernon Gholston are not the same person.

[bigbluedefense]

holy crap.

wow.

i feel dumber just reading all of this.

[nofalcons10]

No, but I do think Vernon Gholston's lack of a sack total between 2008-2009 is because he simply didn't want it.

And as much as you might wish it, Mario Williams and Vernon Gholston are not the same person.

how do you know? have they both had the opportunity to start two complete seasons at LE in a 4-3 for you to arrive at such a conclusion?

[killxswitch]

I like Gholston more than most and would still like to see him succeed, but this is ridiculous. He has gotten chances, he just hasn't produced. And further, if he isn't getting time on the field, why do you think that is? Because the coaches don't like him and are mean? Or is it because they're trying to win games and Gholston isn't doing well enough to warrant any significant playing time?

[nofalcons10]

he played in 7 games his rookie year. gholston played in 15. in fact, gholston has played in 24 games over two years, smith played in 22 games in his entire career.

start to finish at 4-3 end?

[derza222]

how do you know? have they both had the opportunity to start two complete seasons at LE in a 4-3 for you to arrive at such a conclusion?

Are you actually trying to argue or just bolding random words and coming up with completely irrelevant replies? You just bolded "but I do think Vernon Gholston's lack of a sack total" and "are not the same person" and then said that. How do you know would not apply to "but I do think" as he clearly said he thought instead of he knew, and it's pretty obvious they are not the same person.

[Caddy]

I'd trade a 7th round pick for him - Jumping up to a 6th if he gets a one sack... So basically a 7th round pick.

[nofalcons10]

I like Gholston more than most and would still like to see him succeed, but this is ridiculous. He has gotten chances, he just hasn't produced. And further, if he isn't getting time on the field, why do you think that is? Because the coaches don't like him and are mean? Or is it because they're trying to win games and Gholston isn't doing well enough to warrant any significant playing time?

i believe that it is likely the latter. both marques douglas and shaun ellis have much more experience at DE than gholson and can likely man both run and pass assignments better than gholston can right now.

like i said earlier, ideally at DE as with every position you would love to have the opportunity to groom a replacement.

discipline trumps talent whether it be with vernon davis (ask mike singletary), michael huff (ask tom cable), or with osi umenyoira (ask tom coughlin.

i would've loved to have had the opportunity to sit grant down behind a veteran his rookie year.

[nofalcons10]

Are you actually trying to argue or just bolding random words and coming up with completely irrelevant replies? You just bolded "but I do think Vernon Gholston's lack of a sack total" and "are not the same person" and then said that. How do you know would not apply to "but I do think" as he clearly said he thought instead of he knew, and it's pretty obvious they are not the same person.


ok, since you believe me to be grossly misquoting here. you just stated verbatim :" and it's pretty obvious they are not the same person."

so tell me why is it pretty obvious.

are you basing this on the fact that they have both had the exact same opportunity to start at LE exclusively for two complete seasons?

[diesel]

Why is this thread still open?

[Crickett]

how do you know? have they both had the opportunity to start two complete seasons at LE in a 4-3 for you to arrive at such a conclusion?

How do I know they are not the same person? Well, I'll admit I've never seen them in the same room at the same time, but I'm pretty sure at some point, Mario Williams was playing defensive end for the Texans while Vernon Gholston was failing as a New York Jet.

But beyond that, because one puts forth effort on the field and the other does not. One has actually sacked a quarterback at the NFL level and one has not.

The great speed you claim Gholston has? I've never seen it in a Jets uniform. I don't think he's ever once chased a QB down. The great strength you claim Gholston has? What NFL offensive tackle has Vernon Gholston ever been able to overpower?

[nofalcons10]

Why is this thread still open?

http://i275.photobucket.com/albums/jj317/chumbawumba_02/KillItwithFire.jpg

i have no idea.

had i known that so many new york fans would hypocritically try to condemn gholston as a bust while at the same time pardoning mario williams, calvin pace, and justin tuck's lack of early production for 10 pages i would've personally requested that mods lock the thread myself after page two.

as a matter of fact, can a mod somewhere please lock this thread now or discard it? the blind hypocrisy in this thread has worn on long enough.

i'm done.

[MichaelJordanEberle (sabf)]

You still haven't answered anywhere WHY Vernon can't

a) get on the field with any regularity EVEN WHEN the Jets often line up with 4 defensive linmen
b) do absolutely anything of note on the field. Even Jamaal Anderson got a sack in his first two years in the league.
Guys like Willams and Pace struggled, sure, but be real here. Mario notably IMPROVED between his first and second year because that's what good young players do, and Gholston hasn't. No sacks in two years is ****** pitiful.

Answer those, and I'll lock the thread.

[Jvig43]

I think ive seen it all. Ive never seen anyone use an argument that two players are the same person before ever, and seriously defended it. I am dumber for having read this thread.

[the decider13]

well have you seen justin tuck's statistics his first two years?

41 tackles and a 1 sack.

http://www.nfl.com/players/justintuck/profile?id=TUC056287

and that's at defensive end.

So he still got a sack despite waiting in line behind Osi and Strahan? All you did was make your self look worse. A 3rd round pick who had to wait in line behind two of the best DEs in the game was still able to produce better stats than a top 10 pick.

Rex Ryan must not know how to use a player as good as Gholston:rolleyes:

[derza222]

ok, since you believe me to be grossly misquoting here. you just stated verbatim :" and it's pretty obvious they are not the same person."

so tell me why is it pretty obvious.

are you basing this on the fact that they have both had the exact same opportunity to start at LE exclusively for two complete seasons?

Because Mario Williams is Mario Williams and Vernon Gholston is Vernon Gholston. If they were the same person there would only be one of them. That's why. It has nothing to do with who is starting at left end where, they're two different people with different skill sets and ability levels and desires and work ethics. How in the world could they be the same person? I mean this is getting silly here.

[the decider13]

Because Mario Williams is Mario Williams and Vernon Gholston is Vernon Gholston. If they were the same person there would only be one of them. That's why. It has nothing to do with who is starting at left end where, they're two different people with different skill sets and ability levels and desires and work ethics. How in the world could they be the same person? I mean this is getting silly here.

I'd say they are also not the same person because a 9 sack season was a down season for Mario haha

When Mario posts a 0 sack season, I'll gladly join the Williams=Gholston bandwagon.

[CC.SD]

Has anyone mentioned that Gholston trained with Lawrence Freaking Taylor after his rookie season? If LT and Rex Ryan get absolutely zero out of you, you suuuuuuck.

[yourfavestoner]

Has anyone mentioned that Gholston trained with Lawrence Freaking Taylor after his rookie season? If LT and Rex Ryan get absolutely zero out of you, you suuuuuuck.

His measurables simply don't translate to the football field. But he's got big arm muscles and runs fast over 40 yards so he must be the roxorz!!!!111

[FUNBUNCHER]

IMO some people are being too literal in an effort to pile on.

Of course Gholston and Super Mario aren't the same person, the comparison is made to point out it's relatively an unknown to say what kind of production Gholston would have IF he played in a 4-3 scheme AND was given the opportunity to take a full season of snaps at DE.

The point being, VG may still have the potential to develop as a player given a system and a scheme that suits his skillset. I hope this is the case, still, if VG was a beast of a player who played a 100 mph on every snap, his DC would have found a way to get this kid on the field more often.

And I don't know if it was on specials, but I do remember seeing VG's #50 on the field during the Cincinnati playoff win!!

Regardless, he's going to get a chance to prove himself, either next season with the Jets, or with another team via trade.

It's really hard to believe someone who's arguably one of the most physically gifted Dlineman to ever play at Ohio State has no game whatsoever in the pros.

[no bare feet]

QUESTION:

What do all the following players have in common with Vernon Gholston?

Jeff George
Blair Thomas
Keith McCants
Andre Ware
Chris Singleton
Bruce Pickens
Mike Croel
Charles McRae
Antone Davis
Cedric Jones
Gerard Warren
Jamal Reynolds
Tom Couch
Akili Smith
Courtney Brown
Travis Taylor
Charles Rogers
John Sullivan

[FUNBUNCHER]

Man, I thought Keith McCants was so gonna be L.T. and become the greatest Alabama LB in NFL history!!

That BUST list is sooooo depressing!!!

[The Great Jonathan Vilma]

I would be happy to simply get his contract away from the Jets. That would be compensation enough. Watching him is one of those things that just drives you nuts as a football fan. I'm sure it was said, but I can't remember another player who looked less interested in being a football player in my life. He actually has no intensity or attitude when he plays. He appears to be going through the motion. At this point, with the mental abuse he's probably taken, as well as the fact that he has yet to make a play in the NFL to boost his confidence, I don't know how he can succeed in any other way than having a change of venue and different expectations. He cannot continue down the path he is on. He needs to go somewhere as a under-the-radar project who has no pressure on him.

I honestly don't think he's even tradeable....

[diesel]

QUESTION:

What do all the following players have in common with Vernon Gholston?

Jeff George
Blair Thomas
Keith McCants
Andre Ware
Chris Singleton
Bruce Pickens
Mike Croel
Charles McRae
Antone Davis
Cedric Jones
Gerard Warren
Jamal Reynolds
Tom Couch
Akili Smith
Courtney Brown
Travis Taylor
Charles Rogers
John Sullivan

I'll take "Busts" for $1000, Alex.

[BandwagonPunditry]

as a matter of fact, can a mod somewhere please lock this thread now or discard it? the blind hypocrisy in this thread has worn on long enough.

i'm done.

http://www.3simplerules.com/images/digging.jpg

[nofalcons10]

Tannenbaum refuted a theory that Gholston doesn't have a passion for football, saying:

"Looking at all of the objective information I get every day, I think he does. He's never missed a workout. (He) doesn't miss practice. I have no objective information to say that this guy doesn't love football. He may be quiet but that doesn't mean he's not passionate. From where I sit in the world, it hasn't been lack of effort. He came out early. He's still young. I have no reason to think that because of those attributes that he still can't improve and help us. How will his career turn out? We are not sure yet. Collectively, we have seen players struggle and develop and they develop at different rates."

http://content.usatoday.com/communities/thehuddle/post/2010/01/despite-little-production-jets-plan-to-give-vernon-gholston-another-chance/1

[LonghornsLegend]

http://www.spooncraft.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/07/beat_dead_horse2.jpg

[Morton]

Whether or not Gholston can succeed in a 4-3 is debatable; but the fact remains that you are not the Saints' GM, and the Saints are probably not going to trade for him, so this is all pointless speculation.

[MichaelJordanEberle (sabf)]

Okay so they're going to give him another chance. Like the Packers gave Tim Couch another chance... like the Jags gave Troy Williamson another chance.. you get the picture.

['cuse-213]

Getting 3 bags of salt and vinegar chips, along with a ham and cheese sandwich would be a steal for the Jets.

I haven't read these 10 pages of the thread, but Im sure theres a bunch of Gholston hate. And I am one of the haters.

But in the first 4 games of the season, when Pace was suspended, Gholston did not play bad at all. We would be in a 4-3 most of the time, and he would constantly push linemen back, and demand double teams. Did he excel in run support? Nah. Did he sack the QB? Nah. But he did provide decent pressure.

I think the Jets are going to cut him either this year, or next year. And when a 4-3 team scoops him up, he can at least achieve JAG status.

[Saints-Tigers]

God I love salt and vinegar chips.

[CC.SD]

God I love salt and vinegar chips.

Seriously 3 whole bags for Gholston=steaaaal

[diabsoule]

Seriously 3 whole bags for Gholston=steaaaal

The ham and cheese sandwich really just puts this deal over the top.

[MichaelJordanEberle (sabf)]

Trade him to Buffalo, they can send Ketchup chips! They don't sell those in the US, but most Americans with Canadian relatives are in love with ketchup chips.

[yourfavestoner]

OMG I want a ******* ketchup chip right now.

[Saints-Tigers]

I seriously went and bought two big bags of salt and vinegar chips last night after this thread.

[Morton]

Jalepeno chips are the best.

[TimD]

i know you cant believe everything coaches say, but i saw a recent rex ryan interview basically saying they are giving gholston another chance this season. he really didnt do that terrible when he was on the field last year, he just needs to find a way to earn more playing time.

[Splat]

Gholston and Cromartie on the same team epic...

[PACKmanN]

i want a sandwich with ketchup chips on the side. What i recommend, ketchup chips with plain yogurt as dip for the chips.

[bigbluedefense]

you guys are missing out.

Try plantain chips.


http://www.taquitos.net/im/sn/Vitarroz-Plantain.jpg


its like sex in your mouth.

[Morton]

its like sex in your mouth.

Uh, no thanks. I'd rather not have "sex" in my mouth. I'd prefer to do the sexing in some girl's mouth, to be honest.

[bigbluedefense]

Uh, no thanks. I'd rather not have "sex" in my mouth. I'd prefer to do the sexing in some girl's mouth, to be honest.

cool story bro

[yourfavestoner]

you guys are missing out.

Try plantain chips.


http://www.taquitos.net/im/sn/Vitarroz-Plantain.jpg


its like sex in your mouth.

My family is from Cuba so I endorse this message.

Plantain is THE ****.

[bigbluedefense]

My family is from Cuba so I endorse this message.

Plantain is THE ****.

this guy knows the truth.

man i could go for some right now.

[kalbears13]

I read the first page of this thread and I'm mind-blown how this lasted 10 pages.

[CC.SD]

you guys are missing out.

Try plantain chips.


http://www.taquitos.net/im/sn/Vitarroz-Plantain.jpg


its like sex in your mouth.

I am investigating how to acquire these immediately.

[Saints-Tigers]

Plantain chips suck ass.

Stop derailing this thread, either Salt and Vinegar or GTFO

[CC.SD]

**** I just love chips. I even had some sweet potato chips the other day. Terrific.

[Splat]

Vernon Gholston’s time in New York should be up (http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2011/02/21/vernon-gholstons-time-in-new-york-should-be-up/)

After another sack-less season, it sounds like Gholston will be dropped (http://espn.go.com/blog/new-york/jets/post/_/id/4636/positional-analysis-defensive-end) off the Jets roster. ESPNNewYork.com’s Rich Cimini called Gholston a “goner” in his positional review.

The evaluation is not a surprise and probably a year too late. Jets G.M. Mike Tannenbaum indicated after the season “It could be time to move on” from Gholston.

Since being drafted sixth overall in 2008, Gholston has averaged 14 tackles-per-season. His coaches averaged 25 “Vernon is about to turn the corner” quotes-per-year.
Forgot about this thread. :)

[AHungryWalrus]

..Still any takers?

Please?!

[Bucs_Rule]

Didn't realize he was still there.

[J-Mike88]

THIS is a VERIFIABLE BUST

[descendency]

..Still any takers?

Please?!

Would you take Green Bay's 7th for the Jets' 7th and Gholston?

[Crickett]

Would you take Green Bay's 7th for the Jets' 7th and Gholston?

No, but if the Patriots wanted to Ditka the draft for him, that would just be super.

[bigbluedefense]

Vernon Gholston was one of my biggest misses in the draft.

I'd say my 3 biggest misses have been:

Brady Quinn
Vernon Gholston
Matt Leinart

[Saints-Tigers]

^^

I wouldn't be upset about any of the 3, they all have the tools to be successful, and were good college players when they were confident and/or commited.

I mean, Quinn and Leinart aren't elite passers, but weaker armed QBs are succesful, that's no excuse for them.

[Zello]

Some 4-3 team is going to pick him up and turn him into a beastly DE.

[Nalej]

I'd say my 3 biggest misses have been:

Brady Quinn
Vernon Gholston
Matt Leinart

Mine are:

Akili Smith
Vernon Gholston
B.Quinn

I still wouldn't mind if the Pats picked him up. **** it. No compensation req'd.
Why not? The thought of him turning into a beast would be great for the Pats/Jets rivalry =)
Honestly, I could see it from a "trying to get info from a former player" perspective.
NE/NYJ have a history of that...

[bucfan12]

Some 4-3 team is going to pick him up and turn him into a beastly DE.

I agree to a point. Not saying he is going to be completely dominate but I never thought 3-4 OLB was the best fit for him. He is in the 265-270 lb range, a proto 4-3 DE. I think many 3-4 defensive teams think they can turn any 4-3 pass rusher DE into a 3-4 OLB.

I think Gholston can ressurect his career in the 4-3. Was he worth the top 5 selection? No. But I don't think he'd be terrible in a scheme that suits him. Could become a solid bookend for some team like the Saints, who could use a compliment LDE to Will Smith.

[bigbluedefense]

The past 2 years Gholston has strictly played DE. He played DE in both a 3 and 4 man line.

And he still sucked.

[Complex]

I hope the titans sign him or the eagles with Jim Washburn if he sucks they can cut him. I still believe in you Gholston

[A Perfect Score]

Three years without a sack from the #6 overall pick is just pathetic quite frankly. Half of this board could fall into a sack playing in a Rex Ryan defense.

[gsorace]

Everyone who thinks he would be any better in a 4-3 has no idea what they're talking about.

[njx9]

Everyone who thinks he would be any better in a 4-3 has no idea what they're talking about.

though anyone who's saying he couldn't be worse is technically correct.

[Brent]

Three years without a sack from the #6 overall pick is just pathetic quite frankly. Half of this board could fall into a sack playing in a Rex Ryan defense.
as much as I like TH, I dont think he could.

[AHungryWalrus]

Would you take Green Bay's 7th for the Jets' 7th and Gholston?

Yepp. Would be better for us than cutting him.

[The Great Jonathan Vilma]

Yepp. Would be better for us than cutting him.

Greenbay has a lower selection in the 7th round I believe. As such, the Jets would move down a few spots (ie. Greenbay is taking Vernon as a penalty).

Your statement is incorrect if the the draft slots are as i'm thinking they are.

[GB12]

You would probably save some money by trading him rather than cutting him.

[Matthew Jones]

I can't believe there's people who seriously want this guy on their team. One of the least productive players in the league.

[vidae]

as much as I like TH, I dont think he could.

TH is a monster when properly motivated.

[Philliez01]

No, but if the Patriots wanted to Ditka the draft for him, that would just be super.

I have this feeling if they did, Gholston would just turn into the Second Coming. I know for sure he'd get a sack.