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PhinsRock
01-16-2010, 08:54 PM
Hi guys. I just joined the boards. I'm a huge Miami Dolphins fan, and love the draft...my favorite time of year.

One guy that I have started to fall in love with that a buddy of mine suggested I take a look at is Brandon Graham out of Michigan. This guy has Lamar Woodley written all over him. Physical, plays the run tremendously, got a speed rush and can just over power you with a bull.

What are your guys thoughts on this kid? I'd personally be estactic if he were to drop to Miami in rd. 3, although I think he ends up being a late rd. 2 pick.

brasho
01-16-2010, 09:57 PM
Brandon Graham will not fall out of round 2, for sure. He looks to be a late-1st-to-early-2nd.

vidae
01-16-2010, 10:02 PM
Welcome to the boards. Always good to have another draft addict.

Like brasho said, I seriously seriously doubt he makes it to round three unless he has a bad combine/pro-day, and I would be surprised, at this point in time, if he's even available in the second.

eagles6606
01-16-2010, 10:02 PM
whoever gets Graham wil get one heck of a player

brasho
01-16-2010, 10:05 PM
Welcome to the boards. Always good to have another draft addict.

Like brasho said, I seriously seriously doubt he makes it to round three unless he has a bad combine/pro-day, and I would be surprised, at this point in time, if he's even available in the second.

And even if he does, the scouts will look at the tape, his production and then they'll compare him to Woodley, who didn't really work out all that well and was horrible in Senior Bowl practices...and then was still drafted high and has produced. That all goes in his favor of not having much of a shot of making it out of round 2.

SenorGato
01-16-2010, 10:08 PM
He's the surest of the high end DE/OLB prospects to be a good player.

Is Rodriguez recruiting well enough to keep this NFL 3-4 player machine going? In the past few years we've seen Harris, Branch, Woodley, Crable, Waston, Woods, and probably a few others come into the league. The only semi-busts as of right now are Crable and I guess Branch.

brasho
01-16-2010, 10:23 PM
Wasn't Crable more of a LB/SS?

J-Mike88
01-16-2010, 10:33 PM
Most of my Packer brothers would be delighted to take him in the 1st round, pick 23, unless a sure LT is still there.

Sniper
01-16-2010, 10:37 PM
Wasn't Crable more of a LB/SS?

Ah, no. He was a 4-3 SAM who lined up at DE quite a bit.

Most of my Packer brothers would be delighted to take him in the 1st round, pick 23, unless a sure LT is still there.

The NFL would veto this pick. Graham AND Woodson on the same defense? Are you ******* kidding me? We're trying to make the league fair over here, and this guy's talking about those two together.

He's the surest of the high end DE/OLB prospects to be a good player.

Is Rodriguez recruiting well enough to keep this NFL 3-4 player machine going? In the past few years we've seen Harris, Branch, Woodley, Crable, Waston, Woods, and probably a few others come into the league. The only semi-busts as of right now are Crable and I guess Branch.

Craig Roh, William Campbell and Ryan Van Bergen are three guys that I could see blossoming into valuable players in a 3-4. (OLB, NT, DE)

Jakey
01-16-2010, 10:39 PM
Hit the nail on the head...Graham = Woodley = God.

hitman
01-17-2010, 12:02 AM
I am just hoping ATL can get him at 19-20. If not him I'll take Griffen.

PhinsRock
01-17-2010, 09:51 AM
The only thing that concerns me is that he seems to be a little slow, (not in terms of straight line speed, but in terms of quickness)...does he have enough to play the OLB position in a 34?

As a pass rusher and run defender, I love him. But to play the strong side you need to be able to go out into coverage, so that's the concern with him that I have.

Yeah, like you guys said, I would highly doubt he gets into round 3. Most mocks have him going mid round 3 right now. If he were available in round 2 for Miami though, I'd be pumped. His relentlessness no doubt reminds Parcells of LT off that edge.

I'm already having dreams of Graham on one side...McClain and Crowder in the middle...Cam Wake on the weakside....oh momma!

SF Dolphin Fan
01-17-2010, 12:38 PM
Hi guys. I just joined the boards. I'm a huge Miami Dolphins fan, and love the draft...my favorite time of year.

One guy that I have started to fall in love with that a buddy of mine suggested I take a look at is Brandon Graham out of Michigan. This guy has Lamar Woodley written all over him. Physical, plays the run tremendously, got a speed rush and can just over power you with a bull.

What are your guys thoughts on this kid? I'd personally be estactic if he were to drop to Miami in rd. 3, although I think he ends up being a late rd. 2 pick.

As a Dolphin fan myself, he is one of my favorites in the draft. Miami needs a SOLB in the worst way and they could probably trade down 5 spots or so in the 1st and get him. I don't think Graham will make it out of the first round.

ThePudge
01-17-2010, 12:55 PM
I'd be interested in hearing why Brandon Graham isn't seen unanimously as a better player/prospect than LaMarr Woodley. Graham is more athletic, more explosive, even stronger, and even more productive in college. Unlike Woodley, Brandon Graham has had plenty experience standing up and playing Linebacker (which he was recruited to do.) He's a scary good player and this 2nd/3rd Round thing is disappointing. To me, Graham could emerge as a Top 15-20 pick after tearing up the Senior Bowl and perhaps Combine. Right now, I like to consider myself ahead of the curve, he's 13th Overall on my Top 100.

PhysicalwithanF
01-17-2010, 01:25 PM
Cant say id be upset if the Niners reached a bit for him and took him at 17..He would fit into a nice 3-4 pash rush rotation with Ahmad Brooks, Manny Lawson and Parys Haralson.

TornadoRex
01-17-2010, 01:34 PM
He's not getting past the Bucs at 35... and I doubt he's available there.

derza222
01-17-2010, 01:53 PM
I would absoulutely love Graham on the Jets. A pass rusher is needed and he would be a steal at 25 IMO. Can't help but agree with Pudge, he just seems like he's getting severely underrated. Hopefully he doesn't run a great 40 and that pushes him down or something, because the guy is a player plain and simple. Based on where he's being talked about now unless he moves up a ton I think he'll outperform his draft position quite a bit.

Paranoidmoonduck
01-17-2010, 03:00 PM
I'd be interested in hearing why Brandon Graham isn't seen unanimously as a better player/prospect than LaMarr Woodley. Graham is more athletic, more explosive, even stronger, and even more productive in college. Unlike Woodley, Brandon Graham has had plenty experience standing up and playing Linebacker (which he was recruited to do.) He's a scary good player and this 2nd/3rd Round thing is disappointing. To me, Graham could emerge as a Top 15-20 pick after tearing up the Senior Bowl and perhaps Combine. Right now, I like to consider myself ahead of the curve, he's 13th Overall on my Top 100.

Obviously it's going to depend on how athletic he actually turns out to be in terms of hard numbers, but I think concerns over his stocky and short build might drop him down a little.

He's still a fantastic player, well worth being picked in the first.

PhinsRock
01-17-2010, 08:13 PM
Obviously it's going to depend on how athletic he actually turns out to be in terms of hard numbers, but I think concerns over his stocky and short build might drop him down a little.

He's still a fantastic player, well worth being picked in the first.

I agree. His shuttle time is going to be huge for all these 34 teams. His quickness in space is the only concern I have.

RealityCheck
01-17-2010, 08:35 PM
What are your guys thoughts on this kid? I'd personally be estactic if he were to drop to Miami in rd. 3, although I think he ends up being a late rd. 2 pick.
No, just no. Graham will go to the Dolphins in the 1st.

Goober Man
01-17-2010, 08:36 PM
I have watched a TON of football games this year and have watched nearly all of Michigans games for the past 8 or so years and Graham IMO is one of the quickest/explosive defensive end prospects I've seen all year and compares very well to Woodley. Even quicker than Derrick Morgan from Georgia Tech.

Brent
01-17-2010, 09:29 PM
Cant say id be upset if the Niners reached a bit for him and took him at 17..He would fit into a nice 3-4 pash rush rotation with Ahmad Brooks, Manny Lawson and Parys Haralson.
Definitely. Also, I love that user name.

ATLDirtyBirds
01-18-2010, 08:12 AM
I am just hoping ATL can get him at 19-20.


Absolutely. Plus he seems to fit the mold of a Thomas Dimitroff player. In my most ideal of worlds, we trade back a bit and either get back into the 2nd round (our 2nd rounder was traded for Tony G) or even better, we get a first round pick for next year and can still select Graham.

LickaMahfeetz
01-20-2010, 11:38 PM
Graham has to be one of my favorite prospects to come out this year. I hope (pray?) he's still on the board by the time my team picks again at #33. Every team can use a player like him on their team. The height concerns as a 43 DE are actually a benefit imo because shorter guys have always been known to give the taller OT's more trouble.

I've talked to someone who played against him this year and they said he yaps a lot during the games, a LOT lot. For some people that might be a bit of a turnoff but I personally enjoy a good player who is going to try and get into their opponents heads. Since this game is just as much mental as it is physical.

SenorGato
01-20-2010, 11:50 PM
Craig Roh, William Campbell and Ryan Van Bergen are three guys that I could see blossoming into valuable players in a 3-4. (OLB, NT, DE)

Tell me more about these 3. Campbell must have some sick upside with that size.

Didn't watch much Michigan this year. I know Graham's a high end prospect more because I saw him as a sophomore and junior. I've been high on him as a player for years.

descendency
01-21-2010, 02:56 AM
I'll take him with the first second round pick the Patriots have (thanks Titans). He looks like an OLB/ILB to me. I don't think he has the size to sustain a 16 let alone 20 game season in the NFL.

jetsfan0099
01-22-2010, 11:24 PM
Noway he falls out of the first round, I would love to see him fall to late first so the Jets can grab him as we could use a pass rusher.

He would be a beast under Rex Ryan. Plus we may be getting rid of the ultra BUST Vernon Gholston.

descendency
01-23-2010, 12:30 AM
Noway he falls out of the first round, I would love to see him fall to late first so the Jets can grab him as we could use a pass rusher.
Guys with under-ideal size do fall out of the first round. It's common.

SenorGato
01-23-2010, 10:53 AM
Noway he falls out of the first round, I would love to see him fall to late first so the Jets can grab him as we could use a pass rusher.

He would be a beast under Rex Ryan. Plus we may be getting rid of the ultra BUST Vernon Gholston.

He'd just be stashed away to develop as an OLB, which just might lead to him being another biggest bust ever.

J/k...But I don't see any DE/OLB we draft playing much...thats even a completely ignored factor in the case that is Vernon Gholston.

PhinsRock
01-23-2010, 10:59 AM
Guys with under-ideal size do fall out of the first round. It's common.

How the heck does he have "under-deal" size??

Day One Pick
01-23-2010, 11:34 AM
I think Brandon Graham owes LaMarr Woodley some money. You can't help but think LaMarr Woodley when you see Graham. What 3-4 team in the league wouldn't love to get the next LaMarr Woodley? I think this will get him drafted a lot higher than he normally would have. It might be a longshot, but I don't think top 15 is out of the question. Most likely he'll go in the 23-28 range.

hitman
01-23-2010, 11:07 PM
I think Brandon Graham owes LaMarr Woodley some money. You can't help but think LaMarr Woodley when you see Graham. What 3-4 team in the league wouldn't love to get the next LaMarr Woodley? I think this will get him drafted a lot higher than he normally would have. It might be a longshot, but I don't think top 15 is out of the question. Most likely he'll go in the 23-28 range.

With the Senior Bowl and Combine I think he will do real good and go 19-20.
There's only 2 teams there, ATL and Houston. I'm hoping ATL.

Spartan4224
01-24-2010, 10:49 AM
Hi guys. I just joined the boards. I'm a huge Miami Dolphins fan, and love the draft...my favorite time of year.

One guy that I have started to fall in love with that a buddy of mine suggested I take a look at is Brandon Graham out of Michigan. This guy has Lamar Woodley written all over him. Physical, plays the run tremendously, got a speed rush and can just over power you with a bull.

What are your guys thoughts on this kid? I'd personally be estactic if he were to drop to Miami in rd. 3, although I think he ends up being a late rd. 2 pick.

If I was to compare him to a Michigan player, it would be a better pass rushing James Hall. I think he will be a better DE (around 275lbs in the pros) then a outside linebacker in a 3-4.

Spartan4224
01-24-2010, 12:07 PM
Hi guys. I just joined the boards. I'm a huge Miami Dolphins fan, and love the draft...my favorite time of year.

One guy that I have started to fall in love with that a buddy of mine suggested I take a look at is Brandon Graham out of Michigan. This guy has Lamar Woodley written all over him. Physical, plays the run tremendously, got a speed rush and can just over power you with a bull.

What are your guys thoughts on this kid? I'd personally be estactic if he were to drop to Miami in rd. 3, although I think he ends up being a late rd. 2 pick.

If I was to compare him to a Michigan player, it would be a better pass rushing James Hall. I think he will be a better DE (around 275lbs in the pros) then a outside linebacker in a 3-4.

FUNBUNCHER
01-24-2010, 02:02 PM
Because of the Woodley effect, if Graham is 6'2 or shorter, he gets drafted to play 34 OLB. His upside at that position looks nearly unlimited.

thetedginnshow
01-24-2010, 07:07 PM
I really don't see him looking good at the combine. I think he'll go in the range Maualuga did.

descendency
01-25-2010, 01:50 PM
How the heck does he have "under-deal" size??

He's 6'1" (according to the weigh-ins in mobile). DEs are desired as big as you can get them.

I'm not saying he won't be a very good prospect, just that he's not 6'4"+ 280+ that people want their 43 DEs to be.

edit: Wingspan is small too.

I want him at 34 ILB/OLB. Not at DE. But to be an ILB, he might want to consider dropping 10 lbs. 260 is borderline excessive.

Sniper
01-25-2010, 01:53 PM
He's 6'1" (according to the weigh-ins in mobile). DEs are desired as big as you can get them.

I'm not saying he won't be a very good prospect, just that he's not 6'4"+ 280+ that people want their 43 DEs to be.

edit: Wingspan is small too.

He meant that under-deal is not a word.

Same criticism as LaMarr Woodley, will be just as successful.

goblue8888
01-25-2010, 03:14 PM
I really don't see him looking good at the combine. I think he'll go in the range Maualuga did.

Graham is a work-out freak.

descendency
01-25-2010, 03:39 PM
He meant that under-deal is not a word.

That's good. Because I said under-ideal. I think even if you question whether that is a word or not, it's easy to understand what I am saying.

The more I see of him, the more I hope the Patriots either grab him at 22nd or 44th. Spiller and Graham would be a great start to the 2010 draft. After the Texas versus the Nation game, I might add Jared Veldheer.

PhinsRock
01-25-2010, 05:57 PM
I wasn't questioning whether it was a word or not.

I wasn't thinking about him as a 43 DE. I was thinking about him as a 34 OLB. So my bad there.

I was real impressed with him today though. Once again....Lamar Woodley.

eagles6606
01-25-2010, 07:34 PM
I know Scott had questions about Graham's speed and explosion. If anyone saw him blow by Ed Wang today in 1 vs 1, some of those concerns should be aleviated.

Iamcanadian
01-25-2010, 07:53 PM
How the heck does he have "under-deal" size??

he is only 6' 1" tall but his biggest weakness is his short arms which are only 30.5 inches in length.

CC.SD
01-25-2010, 08:59 PM
6'1 is practically trendy in 3-4 OLBs right now. Graham is worth slobbering over.

SwagU
01-25-2010, 09:05 PM
Mayock was talking about how short his arms are which poses concerns for him being a 4-3 DE. Really like Graham alot though, he was a bright spot on that Michigan defense, I can really see him excelling in a 3-4 defense as a OLB.

J-Mike88
01-26-2010, 06:24 AM
I'll take him with the first second round pick the Patriots have (thanks Titans). He looks like an OLB/ILB to me. I don't think he has the size to sustain a 16 let alone 20 game season in the NFL.
??? Joke intended ???
You're saying he's not tall enough to sustain a full schedule in the NFL?
Elvis Dumervil?
James Harrison?
They're both shorter than Graham is and how does heighth affect that?
He's obviously not too light to sustain it....

Iamcanadian
01-26-2010, 07:45 AM
Originally Posted by ThePudge
I'd be interested in hearing why Brandon Graham isn't seen unanimously as a better player/prospect than LaMarr Woodley. Graham is more athletic, more explosive, even stronger, and even more productive in college. Unlike Woodley, Brandon Graham has had plenty experience standing up and playing Linebacker (which he was recruited to do.) He's a scary good player and this 2nd/3rd Round thing is disappointing. To me, Graham could emerge as a Top 15-20 pick after tearing up the Senior Bowl and perhaps Combine. Right now, I like to consider myself ahead of the curve, he's 13th Overall on my Top 100.

I completely disagree, with only 30.5 inch arms he is likely a 2nd rounder. When your arms are 2 to 3 inches shorter than your opponent, it is extremely difficult for a player to get his hands into the play making it difficult to avoid stiff arms from RB's and he'll have to strictly depend on his speed to make it.
Other than those short arms and I would think you are right about the rest of his game.

J-Mike88
01-26-2010, 08:20 AM
How long are James Harrison and Elvis Dumervil's arms?

P-L
01-26-2010, 08:59 AM
How long are James Harrison and Elvis Dumervil's arms?
Dumervil has very long arms for his size, but you're right that James Harrison's are rather short.

FUNBUNCHER
01-26-2010, 10:03 AM
If his short arms weren't a problem in college, they won't be in the pros.
Ricky Williams has little baby hands and he's never fumbled anywhere near the amount that AD has thus far in his career.

When is the last time you watched an NFL game where a commentator said,
' oh, player x could have made that play if his arms were longer,' ?

Agree with Pudge, that Graham is the newer, improved version of Lamar Woodley.

Bet he runs a 4.6 while benching 30+ reps.

fear the elf
01-26-2010, 10:16 AM
Bet he runs a 4.6 while benching 30+ reps.

He better with those midget arms. :D

Cicero
01-26-2010, 10:37 AM
If his short arms weren't a problem in college, they won't be in the pros.
Ricky Williams has little baby hands and he's never fumbled anywhere near the amount that AD has thus far in his career.

When is the last time you watched an NFL game where a commentator said,
' oh, player x could have made that play if his arms were longer,' ?

Agree with Pudge, that Graham is the newer, improved version of Lamar Woodley.

Bet he runs a 4.6 while benching 30+ reps.

That doesn't make any sense at all. I suppose since Tebow's release didn't hinder him in college it won't be a problem in the NFL either... It's been proven that having short arms as a lineman is a disadvantage. Some guys might be able to overcome that disadvantage sure but to say it doesn't matter is asinine.

FUNBUNCHER
01-26-2010, 10:51 AM
The skillset for a DE/LB and a QB are different, that's why I didn't bring up Peyton Manning's shortish arms because they don't affect his individual play.

Physical measurables aren't absolutes; if Tebow's throwing mechanics issue was do to skeletal/muscular problem, that would be a different issue altogether.

Graham's ability to play DE has not been hampered in any way by his arm length,to suggest those missing two inches would make him a better player is a flawed, simplistic analysis.

People trusts numbers more than their eyes when evaluating prospects, IMO.

descendency
01-26-2010, 11:57 AM
It won't really matter when he's an ILB.

ElectricEye
01-26-2010, 12:15 PM
It won't really matter when he's an ILB.

That's like...the worst idea ever. Why eliminate his best skill to put him in a position he'll be uncomfortable in? His arms are fairly short, he's on the squattier side, but that's not his game anyway. He gets outstanding leverage in pass rush situations and has no problem getting off blocks. Yeah, he's easier to get into because of his shorter arms, but he supplements it very well. Guarantee not one team in the NFL is looking at him as an ILB prospect.

ThePudge
01-26-2010, 12:16 PM
Brandon Graham - LB/DE - Michigan
#55 - 6'1 263 4.7 est.
30.5" arms - 9 7/8" hands

I think at the DE spot, even OLB in a 3-4, a long-limbed player is preferred. I said before, however, that I don't expect his short arms to hinder him inside in a 3-4, and to be honest, at OLB, I don't know that it would hold him back as a player as much as it would hold him back as a "prospect."

What we see so far are the most average attributes Graham possesses, his size measurements. I've always said I'm not crazy about the Woodley comparison, because I don't think Graham gets his due there. Brandon went into Michigan as the #1 Linebacker recruit in the country. He was presumed to have the physical skill-set, instincts, and ability to run in space to play ILB at an elite level. Now, the guy got very heavy his first few years and it became clear his role was going to be on the Defensive Line for the Wolverines.

I already heard stories yesterday about Graham running circles around an athletic tackle in Va Tech's Ed Wang, and I expect those stories to just intensify in 7 on 7s, in drills, and especially in 1 on 1s in the pit and on the outside. Trying to block this guy without at least a Running Back or Tight End chipping is one of the toughest things I can think of. Graham is extremely explosive off the snap, has an eye for the football, and makes plays in the backfield (even against Big Ten OL that are 5 inches taller and 70 pounds heavier than him.) This guy plays up to competition and gave both Iowa (Bryan Bulaga) and Wisconsin (Gabe Carmini) fits. In Graham's three biggest Big 10 competition's (Ohio State-Iowa-Wisconsin), he totaled 27 Tackles 12.5 TFL 6 Sacks.

He's explosive, he uses his hands well, he has a variety of pass-rushing moves, and gets off blockers very well. What I need to see from him to verify the Top 15 label I have slapped on him, will be how he tests this week and at the Combine in space. He's tremendous at finding the football, is a team vocal leader, and has developed a great work ethic in practice and the weight room. Graham also possesses a non-stop motor, and uses leverage and core strength better than any DE in college football.

Most people don't know the reputation he possesses in the college world as a Workout Warrior. Graham is thick, he's chiseled, and he's going to make a splash in Indianapolis this year. He's a very explosive athlete on the field and off it, he should run a decent 40, should do well with his short-area quickness tests, and I'll come forward and say I 99% expect him over 30 bench reps, perhaps as high as 35-36 or so. His football character is flawless. Earlier in his college career, Graham had very questionable weight problems that put his career in doubt, though he did find a way to be successful at any weight at any position. Eventually, he slimmed back down and found his home at Defensive End. No DE or defensive player has been as good as he has the past two years in the Big Ten. He's smart, he leads vocally, and leads by example on and off the field. He has an intricate knowledge of the game and possesses elite intangibles for the defensive side of the ball.

He's going to make OL much bigger than himself look silly this week, and I almost guarantee it. He's a special talent and it should show on a national scale this week. Brandon Graham may have been lost in the Rich Rod era, which brought a negative media outlook toward the Michigan program, but he definitely was a guy that was game-planned against. A Top 15 talent in my mind, with no business getting out of the Top 20. NFL teams can be a bit superficial, so I understand that it's not a guarantee he'll go quite that high. Still, I am confident in my analysis in Graham and believe he'll be a Pro Bowl player at the next level at OLB or ILB (maybe line up on the edge on passing downs.)

Pros
+ Explosive off the snap and quick to the backfield
+ Finds the ball well in space and in traffic
+ Core Strength - has anchor strength and plenty of upper body power
+ Plays with very impressive leverage, capable of moving the biggest OL
+ Uses a variety of pass-rush moves and excels getting to the QB
+ Non-stop motor, never quits and is an intimidator on the front line
+ Tremendous work ethic on the field, in the weight-room, and in the film room
+ Football instincts and intangibles are top notch for a defensive player
+ Elite College Production, officially the Michigan MVP last two years
+ Thick, chiseled physique
+ Top vocal leader on the field
+ Very Durable, played in 47 games at Michigan

Cons
- Height for the Defensive End position
- Short arms
- Inexperience at LB in college
- Still a question how well he will be able to play in space
- Raw in coverage
- May be tougher for him to keep his weight down at 255-265 than some

Sniper
01-26-2010, 12:19 PM
Brandon Graham may have been lost in the Rich Rod era, which brought a negative media outlook toward the Michigan program, but he definitely was a guy that was game-planned against.

I loved your post and repped it as so, but I disagree with this part. Graham was a very one-dimensional player before RR got to Michigan. Part of that is youth, part of that is positional inexperience, but he was still one-dimensional. His stats are a bit inflated because of UM's poor offense and defense the past two years, but he really developed in terms of all-around ability and not just being a pass-rusher.

fear the elf
01-26-2010, 12:34 PM
Please stop hyping Brandon Graham. At this rate he'll never slip out of the first round, and the Browns won't get him.

Sniper
01-26-2010, 12:36 PM
Please stop hyping Brandon Graham. At this rate he'll never slip out of the first round, and the Browns won't get him.

Let's hope he doesn't go to Cleveland. Please...

ThePudge
01-26-2010, 12:36 PM
I loved your post and repped it as so, but I disagree with this part. Graham was a very one-dimensional player before RR got to Michigan. Part of that is youth, part of that is positional inexperience, but he was still one-dimensional. His stats are a bit inflated because of UM's poor offense and defense the past two years, but he really developed in terms of all-around ability and not just being a pass-rusher.

I agree with that statement, absolutely. I believe RR and his staff made Graham into a much better player and really prepared him as a leader and football player moving forward into the NFL. I do remember hearing accounts of Graham as a one-trick pony, even when he was at DT.

What I meant was he never really became the media darling you'd expect for the Wolverines because of the negative press and lack of wins the program was putting up. Few could tell you that Brandon Graham was an AP Second-Team All-American this past year, and even fewer could tell you he won the Bo Schembechler Michigan MVP in 2008 and 2009, the first player ever to win it back to back.

I added an organized little post above, so take a second look, let me know how you like the layout and the breakdown itself. We've had our disagreements in the past, but I believe Graham is one player we can share a very similar opinion on. I don't care if the guy plays ILB, OLB, DE, or DT, I think he'll be a productive pro. Some teams in the Top 10-15 are going to regret it if they pass on Graham because I doubt they'll get two shots.

fear the elf
01-26-2010, 12:37 PM
Let's hope he doesn't go to Cleveland. Please...

I don't like you very much right now. :(

Sniper
01-26-2010, 12:39 PM
I don't like you very much right now. :(

It's nothing personal, man. :D I just don't want Graham to have to deal with *shudder* the state of Ohio.

ThePudge
01-26-2010, 12:40 PM
Please stop hyping Brandon Graham. At this rate he'll never slip out of the first round, and the Browns won't get him.

If your alternatives are Jason Pierre-Paul, Joe Haden, and Derrick Morgan then I honestly wouldn't have a problem pulling the trigger at 7th Overall. I think this guy has Pro Bowl written all over him and I don't believe a lack of height or arm length limits his NFL potential or upside at all. After watching almost every Browns game the past two years, Graham may be the best fit and may offer the most meaningful impact. I would hate to see that in the division though.

fear the elf
01-26-2010, 12:44 PM
It's nothing personal, man. :D I just don't want Graham to have to deal with *shudder* the state of Ohio.

We would accept him as one of our own. That little mistake he made for the last 4 years would be water under the bridge. :)

Sniper
01-26-2010, 12:45 PM
We would accept him as one of our own.

Braylon Edwards disagrees, though I'm not going over that again.

That little mistake he made for the last 4 years would be water under the bridge. :)

He was so glorious in the Maize and Blue. I don't think I'd be able to stomach him in Cleveland.

fear the elf
01-26-2010, 12:46 PM
If your alternatives are Jason Pierre-Paul, Joe Haden, and Derrick Morgan then I honestly wouldn't have a problem pulling the trigger at 7th Overall. I think this guy has Pro Bowl written all over him and I don't believe a lack of height or arm length limits his NFL potential or upside at all. After watching almost every Browns game the past two years, Graham may be the best fit and may offer the most meaningful impact. I would hate to see that in the division though.

From what I've seen from him, I almost wouldn't have a problem with him at #7, I guess I'm just being greedy, hoping we can get Berry and Graham in the same draft! I can't imagine it working out any better...

P-L
01-26-2010, 01:01 PM
His short arms are an issue, but I don't think they should keep him from going in the first round. So far no one has been able to block him down in Mobile. If he performs to his capabilities at the combine, I think he'll find a home in the 20-35 range come draft day.

descendency
01-26-2010, 02:26 PM
That's like...the worst idea ever. Why eliminate his best skill to put him in a position he'll be uncomfortable in? His arms are fairly short, he's on the squattier side, but that's not his game anyway. He gets outstanding leverage in pass rush situations and has no problem getting off blocks. Yeah, he's easier to get into because of his shorter arms, but he supplements it very well. Guarantee not one team in the NFL is looking at him as an ILB prospect.

It is such a dumb idea, the Patriots already did it (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tedy_Bruschi#College_career). I think he was a pretty good player...

If he doesn't have good instincts, then he will fail as more than a situational pass rusher. And then, in my opinion, does not deserve a 1st or second round grade.

thetedginnshow
01-26-2010, 03:08 PM
So who do Michigan fans think is better (at least translating to the NFL): Woodley or Graham?

Michigan
01-26-2010, 03:55 PM
So who do Michigan fans think is better (at least translating to the NFL): Woodley or Graham?

I'd actually say Graham. Even though Woodley is an all-pro with 500 sacks the past 2 years, Graham is the most dominant DL I've ever seen play for Michigan. He had his best games against the best competition, and I really can't imagine him ever struggling with his work ethic and motor. It'll be tough to match Woodley's god-like statistics (8 sacks in 4 playoff games?!), but defensive coordinators will lose more sleep because of Graham's ability to always get to the football. Of course, I'd like to see Graham as a 3-4 OLB.

P-L
01-26-2010, 03:57 PM
So who do Michigan fans think is better (at least translating to the NFL): Woodley or Graham?
Graham is the better prospect at this point in the process.

Sniper
01-26-2010, 03:58 PM
I'd actually say Graham. Even though Woodley is an all-pro with 500 sacks the past 2 years, Graham is the most dominant DL I've ever seen play for Michigan. He had his best games against the best competition, and I really can't imagine him ever struggling with his work ethic and motor. I'd like to see Graham as a 3-4 OLB though.

Graham for me as well. While The Norse God of Thunder was amazing in his own right, he also had a hell of a lot more to help him out. David Harris, Shawn Crable, Prescott Burgess, Alan Branch, Leon Hall, competent but not great safety play etc... To give the board an example, Prescott Burgess, the third-best LB on the '06 team, would have EASILY been the best LB on the '08 or '09 Michigan squads. Graham takes over games even if he doesn't get sacks. Not that Woodley didn't, but Graham is better by a nose.

brasho
01-26-2010, 04:03 PM
I didn't think much of Woodley as a prospect and I think Graham is a lot better. For those of us that remember a couple years back, Woodley showed up to the Senior Bowl a few years back and only lasted a couple of days because of injury... but he was terrible! I suspected he faked injury to avoid looking terrible, others suggested he played terrible BECAUSE he was injured... I think those people were right and I was wrong.... that being said, Graham looks excellent so far.

BigBanger
01-26-2010, 04:15 PM
Woodley was underrated. 270 pound monster with great technique that dominated against the run and was ideal for playing the strong side.

Graham has more/better quickness, but his size and length is a bit of a concern. If anything, Graham is kind of in limbo. Does he have the quickness to play on the weak side and pressure the QB, or is big enough and stout enough at the POA to play strong side.

Woodley is underrated, even to this day. People were high on him, then he looked awful during the Senior Bowl, and everyone dropped him.

ElectricEye
01-26-2010, 07:47 PM
It is such a dumb idea, the Patriots already did it (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tedy_Bruschi#College_career). I think he was a pretty good player...

If he doesn't have good instincts, then he will fail as more than a situational pass rusher. And then, in my opinion, does not deserve a 1st or second round grade.

Bruschi was undersized(might have even been 230 something coming out) and didn't have the advantage of Lamar Woodley, James Harrison, and Elvis Dumervile have given Brandon Graham. He would have not held up in a 3-4 defense at OLB. Graham has almost 20 pounds on Bruschi even at the 247 he was listed at the end of his career. Plus, as mentioned before, rushing the passer is his best skill.

TheSlinger
01-30-2010, 06:34 PM
So, obviously Graham had a monster game. However, at 6'1" 263, 30.5" arms is he a feasible DE or just a pure 3-4 OLB? That speed rush is just devastating.

Graham: 6'1" 263
Freeney: 6'1" 266 (at the combine at least)

Does anybody know if Freeney's arm length is available anywhere?

stephenson86
01-30-2010, 06:37 PM
id love graham as a DE for the titans, i think he could pack on 10 more lbs and be a beast in the trenches for years, he has an immense motor

FUNBUNCHER
01-30-2010, 06:39 PM
Short arms are no problem if you have the hand technique to keep OTs from getting into your body.

Rarely do offensive lineman get inside Graham's pads.

keylime_5
01-30-2010, 06:39 PM
Is there a team in the late first/early second whose fans don't want Graham? After the week in Mobile I think he is on every fan's "I want this guy on my team" list. That would be killer if he's there at pick 38, but I get the feeling someone will snag him before pick #32.

stephenson86
01-30-2010, 06:40 PM
Is there a team in the late first/early second whose fans don't want Graham? After the week in Mobile I think he is on every fan's "I want this guy on my team" list. That would be killer if he's there at pick 38, but I get the feeling someone will snag him before pick #32.

id take him at 16, i think he is possibly the best DE

fear the elf
01-30-2010, 06:53 PM
Is there a team in the late first/early second whose fans don't want Graham? After the week in Mobile I think he is on every fan's "I want this guy on my team" list. That would be killer if he's there at pick 38, but I get the feeling someone will snag him before pick #32.

I think you're dead on. I think he's officially the guy I want the most for us and I wouldn't mind doing what we did last year to get Mack while adding some extra picks.

descendency
01-30-2010, 06:53 PM
id take him at 16, i think he is possibly the best DE

Please don't... The Patriots need him :(

LizardState
01-30-2010, 07:38 PM
MVP of 2 all star games in a row...... quick as they come, could be the next Terrell Suggs

phlysac
01-30-2010, 09:46 PM
Does anybody know if Freeney's arm length is available anywhere?

33" according to USAToday
http://www.usatoday.com/sports/nfl/2002draft/des/dwightfreeney.htm

bigbuc
01-30-2010, 09:54 PM
If he runs anywhere close to a 4.6 I would take him around 10ish.

TheRoo
01-30-2010, 11:18 PM
He really got himself into the middle of the first. I could see him going as high as 7. Cleveland really needs another OLB.

Shane P. Hallam
01-30-2010, 11:19 PM
He really got himself into the middle of the first. I could see him going as high as 7. Cleveland really needs another OLB.

Well, I knew the Senior Bowl would overrate him, but not this much.

Oaktown1981
01-30-2010, 11:28 PM
Graham is a beast he will be a pro bowler without question.

D-Unit
01-30-2010, 11:34 PM
I'd love him as ILB for the Cowboys. Anyway to fit this beast in, I'm for it. Heck, maybe we move Demarcus Ware to ILB to make room for Graham! :D

TheRoo
01-30-2010, 11:38 PM
Well, I knew the Senior Bowl would overrate him, but not this much.

You don't think that if he were to put up good numbers at the combine he could sneak into the top 10.

FUNBUNCHER
01-30-2010, 11:46 PM
Graham is beginning to look like the safest first round pick in this draft. IMO you know exactly what you're getting from him, considering the success of similar players like Dumervil, Woodley, and Freeney.

No surprise if he goes top 15, and he could shock in the 40, maybe sub 4.65.

BroadwayJoe10
01-30-2010, 11:59 PM
You don't think that if he were to put up good numbers at the combine he could sneak into the top 10.

Unless that 40 time happens to be a 4.1 than I would put the chances of him sneaking into the top 10, about the same as him finding a rocket to shove up his ass so as to run said 40 time.

I love me some graham, but this happens every year after the senior bowl. A lot of players get hyped and then will be mired in relative obscurity once the combine rolls around.

The kid is a heck of a player and I think he's going to be a stud for someone, however, you just need to look at the top ten and see that there's no fit for him. There's no way he's getting picked over Suh, McCoy, Berry, McClain, Okung, Bulaga, Davis etc.

I want to state again, I really do like this kid and would love him as a jet, be what gholston should have been...but a lot of this is senior bowl hype. I see him as a bottom of round 1 guy.

descendency
01-31-2010, 12:09 AM
Well, I knew the Senior Bowl would overrate him, but not this much.

It'll drop again after the combine and pro-days.

Unbiased
01-31-2010, 12:09 AM
He's been doing this all year. We're people just not paying attention?

Michigan
01-31-2010, 12:30 AM
There's no way he's getting picked over Suh, McCoy, Berry, McClain, Okung, Bulaga, Davis etc.


During the Mich-Iowa game, Bulaga spent so much time under Graham's ass that he can tell you exactly how many anal beads he has. I find it hilarious that scouts rate him higher.

phlysac
01-31-2010, 12:55 AM
During the Mich-Iowa game, Bulaga spent so much time under Graham's ass that he can tell you exactly how many anal beads he has. I find it hilarious that scouts rate him higher.

In Bulaga's defense he was just returning from missing time for a thyroid condition that, at the time, was rumored could've ended his career. A weakened, rusty, less than 100% OT, regardless of draft stock, will be molested by Brandon Graham.

RufusMcDaniel
01-31-2010, 12:58 AM
id take him at 16, i think he is possibly the best DE

I would love that. Graham or Weatherspoon are now at the top of my list.

BroadwayJoe10
01-31-2010, 01:15 AM
During the Mich-Iowa game, Bulaga spent so much time under Graham's ass that he can tell you exactly how many anal beads he has. I find it hilarious that scouts rate him higher.

I calls em likes I sees em. I never stated that Graham isn't deserving of a top 15 pick, it's just my contention that he's most definitely not going to get drafted there. When ya look at teams, such as KC, Oakland and Buffalo who all need top-end Oline help and then other teams who don't need a 3-4 backer, there's just not a spot that I can see him going in the top 15.

I personally feel he's going to find a home in the 25-35 range. I think his talent and production are worthy of him being a mid-first, but after the combine is over, there will be a whole new mess of players on everyone's wish list and I think that'll cause him to fall a bit. Once again, not saying it should happen, just that it probably will.

YAYareaRB
01-31-2010, 09:54 AM
The Inconvenient Truth

http://sanfrancisco.footballdiaries.com/wp-content/themes/newsgazette/teams/Logos/San-Francisco-49ers-Logo.gif

Babylon
01-31-2010, 11:42 AM
In Bulaga's defense he was just returning from missing time for a thyroid condition that, at the time, was rumored could've ended his career. A weakened, rusty, less than 100% OT, regardless of draft stock, will be molested by Brandon Graham.

And Jake Long struggled with Vernon Gholston, how did that thing work out? I think Graham is going to be best as a 3-4 OLB and will probably go higher than expected but franchise LTs are at a premium.

TheRoo
01-31-2010, 01:02 PM
If he played at Alabama or Florida he would considered a top 15 pick IMO, and I'm an Ohio State alumni.

Babylon
01-31-2010, 01:11 PM
If he played at Alabama or Florida he would considered a top 15 pick IMO, and I'm an Ohio State alumni.

Michigan has been reduced to "if he had played.....". how the mighty have fallen.

Michigan
01-31-2010, 01:12 PM
And Jake Long struggled with Vernon Gholston, how did that thing work out?

That's not true. Long dominated Gholston most of the game, but Gholston to his credit made a couple of plays when Long got off the snap awkwardly.

Sniper
01-31-2010, 01:17 PM
Michigan has been reduced to "if he had played.....". how the mighty have fallen.

Hey! Uh, well, never mind.

Babylon
01-31-2010, 01:17 PM
That's not true. Long dominated Gholston most of the game, but Gholston to his credit made a couple of plays when Long got off the snap awkwardly.

And to my knowledge Bulaga wasnt that bad against Graham either. Guys make plays, to me it says more about the guy on the winning end of those battles some times.

Sniper
01-31-2010, 01:18 PM
And to my knowledge Bulaga wasnt that bad against Graham either.

No, he really was. Even Told admitted that Graham abused Bulaga.

Michigan
01-31-2010, 01:19 PM
Michigan has been reduced to "if he had played.....". how the mighty have fallen.

It hasn't made much difference. It's not like Michigan hasn't gotten enough television exposure for people know what Graham is capable of. There's a reason why recently struggling teams like Notre Dame, Tennessee, and Miami continue to get their players drafted high.

Michigan
01-31-2010, 01:20 PM
And to my knowledge Bulaga wasnt that bad against Graham either. Guys make plays, to me it says more about the guy on the winning end of those battles some times.

Woahhhhhhh you did NOT watch the Michigan-Iowa game.

Babylon
01-31-2010, 01:25 PM
It hasn't made much difference. It's not like Michigan hasn't gotten enough television exposure for people know what Graham is capable of. There's a reason why recently struggling teams like Notre Dame, Tennessee, and Miami continue to get their players drafted high.

I guess. Who are all these players getting drafted high for ND/Tennessee and Miami lately?

Michigan
01-31-2010, 01:31 PM
I guess. Who are all these players getting drafted high for ND/Tennessee and Miami lately?

Okay, Notre Dame was a bad example haha. Tennessee has had a defensive player go in the top 20 the past 4 years (Ayers, Mayo, Harrell, Allen), and Miami has had that ridiculous streak of first rounders going until last year.

phlysac
01-31-2010, 01:32 PM
Do I agree with measurements being as important as they are? Absolutely not. With that said, AQ Shipley nearly went undrafted and has already been cut, in part because of his historically short arms 29 3/4"

Graham's are 30"

It will be VERY interesting to see how teams will look upon this.

Sniper
01-31-2010, 01:32 PM
Okay, Notre Dame was a bad example haha. Tennessee has had a defensive player go in the top 20 the past 4 years (Ayers, Mayo, Harrell, Allen),

...which will continue with Berry this year.

Michigan
01-31-2010, 01:35 PM
Do I agree with measurements being as important as they are? Absolutely not. With that said, AQ Shipley nearly went undrafted and has already been cut, in part because of his historically short arms 29 3/4"

Graham's are 30"

It will be VERY interesting to see how teams will look upon this.

AQ Shipley was a center. It's not like centers are drafted highly to begin with. =\

phlysac
01-31-2010, 01:37 PM
AQ Shipley was a center. It's not like centers are drafted highly to begin with. =\

I apologize if you read the correlation literally. I'm not saying that Graham will be a late round pick and be cut. I'm saying that it MAY cause him to drop significantly more than I would like based on tape.

ThePudge
01-31-2010, 01:38 PM
No, he really was. Even Told admitted that Graham abused Bulaga.

Bryan Bulaga, Gabe Carmini, the entire Ohio State OL, the Senior Bowl OL, etc.... People can talk about his drawbacks, but until I see an Offensive Lineman stand up and shut Graham down, I don't believe that anything needs to be altered. He did it against NFL talent all year, proved himself on the biggest stage he could (Senior Bowl) and should be drafted accordingly. He's a Top 15 talent, that could fall due to the superficial nature of decision makers.

P-L
01-31-2010, 01:46 PM
The only thing people can knock on Graham right now is his arm length. Prospects can overcome one or two flaws and, as of now, that's all Brandon has. Why isn't anyone bringing up Joe Thomas? Guy has very short arms for an offensive tackle, yet is one of the best in the league.

Sniper
01-31-2010, 01:47 PM
PQfcytu6ItI&feature=related

Awesomeness...Watch ND's offensive line hold on for dear life.

diabsoule
01-31-2010, 01:51 PM
AQ Shipley was a center. It's not like centers are drafted highly to begin with. =\

Alex Mack and Nick Mangold disagree with you.

ThePudge
01-31-2010, 01:56 PM
The only thing people can knock on Graham right now is his arm length. Prospects can overcome one or two flaws and, as of now, that's all Brandon has. Why isn't anyone bringing up Joe Thomas? Guy has very short arms for an offensive tackle, yet is one of the best in the league.

I've discovered the only flaws people can come up with for Brandon Graham are flaws as a prospect, not as an actual player. No one tells you "Graham doesn't do _________ well enough", you hear "Graham may not be able to do _________ at the NFL level." He's one of the best players in this class and is a future Pro Bowler.

Sniper
01-31-2010, 01:57 PM
Back-to-back plays at 7:14ish onwards were ridiculous.

Babylon
01-31-2010, 02:12 PM
Where is his best position? 4-3 DE or 3-4 OLB? The OLBs seem to go later unless your name is Lawrence Taylor.

Jakey
01-31-2010, 02:30 PM
2lXywtq6Wcw&feature

Not the greatest clips :p But you get the point...theyre the same player! :eek: The only difference is, Woodley is probs abit stronger...Graham is probs abit faster.

TACKLE
01-31-2010, 02:34 PM
Back-to-back plays at 7:14ish onwards were ridiculous.

That was absolute destruction.

Sniper
01-31-2010, 02:39 PM
That was absolute destruction.

He had a better one than the first play (the TFL on Herron) against Michigan State. He pretty much killed Felon Winston.

descendency
01-31-2010, 02:52 PM
If he played at Alabama or Florida he would considered a top 15 pick IMO, and I'm an Ohio State alumni.

If he played at USC, he'd be "the clear #1 overall pick"

Babylon
01-31-2010, 03:12 PM
If he played at USC, he'd be "the clear #1 overall pick"

He's that much better than Everson Griffen? who wont be anywhere near the top of the draft.

BigBanger
01-31-2010, 03:21 PM
If Graham was 6'3'' most people would calling him the best player in the draft.

He's a monster with insane production, a non stop motor, incredible technique, great strength/power and leverage, the burst off the line, can play the run and hold the POA... and he's completely dominate.

ThePudge
01-31-2010, 03:33 PM
If Graham was 6'3'' most people would calling him the best player in the draft.

He's a monster with insane production, a non stop motor, incredible technique, great strength/power and leverage, the burst off the line, can play the run and hold the POA... and he's completely dominate.

Probably true, but it'll never happen and we have to take it from there. Completely dominant player that some have decided to sleep on and make assumptions about. He should find a home in the Top 20, and if not I'd hope the Bengals would be all over him at 21. He'll be one of the best defensive players in this draft. Has been in the 10-15 range in my Big Boards since November, and has peaked now at #9. I'd expect him to go in more the 12-22 range on draft day though.

ThePudge
01-31-2010, 03:47 PM
He's that much better than Everson Griffen? who wont be anywhere near the top of the draft.

I'm not saying I agree with the original post you responded to, but Graham's absolutely a much better player in every single facet of the game. Griffen's a bit bigger, is very athletic, and will test very well as a DE/LB prospect, but Brandon gets it done on the field and dominates in ways that no DE in this class does.

descendency
01-31-2010, 04:21 PM
He's that much better than Everson Griffen? who wont be anywhere near the top of the draft.


Yes. Graham is actually a de/olb. Griffen is a de no potential at olb in my opinion.

Graham is a full round better than Griffen. I don't get the griffen love really.

FUNBUNCHER
01-31-2010, 05:28 PM
I think Griffen has the ability to be a very good 43 DE, but I don't think Graham will see that much time at DE at all in the NFL. His long term future is at OLB, 43 or 34.

ojjuiceman
01-31-2010, 05:35 PM
I think Griffen has the ability to be a very good 43 DE, but I don't think Graham will see that much time at DE at all in the NFL. His long term future is at OLB, 43 or 34.

I'm a big fan of Graham, but i don't think he'll play up to his potential nor be successful at 4-3 OLB in the NFL. He is more of a puss rushing 3-4 OLB or 4-3 DE.

Sniper
01-31-2010, 05:37 PM
Tell me more about these 3. Campbell must have some sick upside with that size.

Didn't watch much Michigan this year. I know Graham's a high end prospect more because I saw him as a sophomore and junior. I've been high on him as a player for years.

I didn't see this post until now.

Campbell- Big. Like, 6'5", 315 pounds of big. However, because he's so big, he was always able to dominate in HS by using his size, so he's sushi-raw in terms of technique. He made some great strides during the season, though, and Brandon Graham thinks Campbell will be the best DT in the country by his junior year, for whatever that's worth.

Van Bergen could be really good as a 3-4 DT if he added some weight. Good technique, good motor and good intangibles. He just needs bulk.

Roh is going to be special. He was our second-best pass-covering LB last year, which is impressive considering he was a HS DE. To be fair, he wasn't exactly beating out pass-coverage whiz kids, but still, impressive. He also needs bulk, but he's got a great first step and good speed.

descendency
01-31-2010, 05:50 PM
I think Griffen has the ability to be a very good 43 DE, but I don't think Graham will see that much time at DE at all in the NFL. His long term future is at OLB, 43 or 34.

Graham: 34 OLB on passing downs, 34 ILB on run downs. I'm going to call it. Maybe you leave him outside, but I think he could be a good A-gap filler.

Griffen: 43 DE with potential to play 43 OLB similar to Brian Orakpo.

P-L
01-31-2010, 05:52 PM
Even as a Michigan fan, I'm not sure Brandon Graham is a top ten player in this class. Is he in that 10-20 range? Definitely, but there is just so much talent in the top ten. I expect a big combine from him (4.65-4.75 40, 30-35 reps) to solidify himself in that area.

descendency
01-31-2010, 05:56 PM
I really, really hope he goes to NE. I think him and a DE/DT could make the Patriots pass rush elite again or at least respectable. Enough to get Brady ring number 4.

JFLO
01-31-2010, 06:02 PM
Even with Graham's SB performance, I still don't see him being drafted in the Top 20-25 picks.

Don't get me wrong, I think he is a Top 20-25 talent, but I don't think coaches will be flattered with his size. I mean, whose to say he can do the same thing against tackles like Jordan Gross, Joe Thomas or even a RT like Michael Oher? I think coaches will fear that and it will lead to him being drafted behind players who shouldn't go in front of him.

I still think he goes in front of players like Sapp, Griffen (workouts pending) and Jerry Hughes. However, he's not going in front of pass rushers like Kindle, Dunlap or JPP (and Morgan obviously).

I'm totally on the Brandon Graham bandwagon though, have been for the majority of the past three months. I just don't think he'll get drafted where he deserves to go, even with his stellar work in Mobile.

D-Unit
01-31-2010, 06:02 PM
I still don't consider Graham a Top 20 prospect. I think he gets taken after that. 20-30, I'd say.

thetedginnshow
01-31-2010, 06:49 PM
If he doesn't have a great combine, I still don't really think he'll get drafted any higher than the late first, at least as a 3-4 OLB. I still think there's a lot of risk there and he hasn't really proven he can play that position yet.

wogitalia
01-31-2010, 08:09 PM
I'd consider him a top 20 player but I can't see him being a top 20 pick. Too many GMs look at Triangle numbers and rule players out.

Graham just reeks of Lamarr Woodley and the fact that Woodley has made so many look stupid for passing on him is going to really help Graham, but you are still going to have a lot of GMs that wont look at him.

Personally I think the first real sniff he is going to get is from the Colts at the end of the first and he would be a scary good fit with them as an injury replacement for Freeney when he gets hurt/development guy. From then on I think the 3-4 teams will start to really look at him, Patriots are also a 1st round chance come to think of it.

I see him going mid 2nd though, unless he puts up a blazing 40. Graham could easily go 1st if he can run under a 4.5 but that just seems really unlikely.

Saints-Tigers
01-31-2010, 09:18 PM
Saints will take a long look at him as well.

BeerBaron
01-31-2010, 09:28 PM
I love this guy. He had good production at Michigan and just absolutely owned the senior bowl in what I saw of it, practices included.

Honestly, he might have had an even more monster game but it seemed like the refs were giving a bit of an advantage to the o-lineman in not calling some holds.....I saw Graham just taken down and nothing was called, and I saw Odrick get held bad once that wasn't called...

Regardless, it would be a terrible crime if he didn't go in the first round. I know they don't play 3-4's where his fit might be best, but teams needing a pass rusher like Detroit or KC really might have to consider this guy at the top of the 2nd if he's there, even if they address needs like that in the first simply for value's sake.

TACKLE
01-31-2010, 10:57 PM
To me, Graham was a Top 20 prospect before Senior Bowl and obviously continued to boost his stock with his performance. Graham was the most dominant DE in the country this year. He dominated every week despite playing on struggling team. He was a force against the run and the pass despite being double teamed all year. I'm glad people who weren't as high on Graham before Senior Bowl aren't overreacting based off what he did but I'd be surprised if he's not taken in the first 22 picks.

descendency
01-31-2010, 11:35 PM
If he doesn't have a great combine, I still don't really think he'll get drafted any higher than the late first, at least as a 3-4 OLB. I still think there's a lot of risk there and he hasn't really proven he can play that position yet.

How many guys who get drafted as 34 OLBs from DE positions are "proven" though?

ThePudge
01-31-2010, 11:55 PM
To me, Graham was a Top 20 prospect before Senior Bowl and obviously continued to boost his stock with his performance. Graham was the most dominant DE in the country this year. He dominated every week despite playing on struggling team. He was a force against the run and the pass despite being double teamed all year. I'm glad people who weren't as high on Graham before Senior Bowl aren't overreacting based off what he did but I'd be surprised if he's not taken in the first 22 picks.

I'd +rep you but Draft Countdown says I can't do that right now. I completely agree with this entire post. Graham is ranked 9th on my board, and I expect he'll be drafted in the 12-22 range. I don't know how New England could pass him up if he fell. He's got future Pro Bowler written all over him.

TheRoo
02-01-2010, 12:17 AM
That's not true. Long dominated Gholston most of the game, but Gholston to his credit made a couple of plays when Long got off the snap awkwardly.

LOL.


Long did not dominate Gholston at all.

thetedginnshow
02-01-2010, 12:46 AM
How many guys who get drafted as 34 OLBs from DE positions are "proven" though?

Yeah, that was the point. I'm just saying that if 4-3 teams don't have him as highly rated as, say, he's thought of here, then that just leaves the 3-4 teams for the middle to late first round, and as of yet, he hasn't shown that he really has the capabilities to successfully make that transition (because he really hasn't been given the opportunity). So we'll see how he does at the combine.

Day One Pick
02-01-2010, 05:58 AM
I just noticed Scott has Graham ranked as the 8th best DE...wow.

ThePudge
02-01-2010, 06:05 AM
I just noticed Scott has Graham ranked as the 8th best DE...wow.

This post was from December 22nd, in reaction to the scouting report and ranking on Graham.

Scott, I'm not calling you out here, but I think you'll change your view on Graham (fairly dramatically) by the end of February. You'll be on hand in Mobile to watch him up close and personal and I think you're going to love what you see. Similar to Sedrick Ellis in 2008, or B.J. Raji a year ago, I think you're going to see Brandon Graham look like a man among boys by mid-week.

His strength, energy, and efficiency at Defensive End was impressive all season and I believe he'll show a different side of himself at the Senior Bowl and NFL Combine. We're talking about a guy that was a Linebacker in HS, moved to DE almost by necessity, and may be moving back to a more natural position at the NFL level. He's been listed as a workout warrior, despite the popular consensus being that he's a bit too short for DE and maybe a bit too slow for OLB. Rumor has it he's capable of running in the mid 4.6s and benching almost 500 pounds (475 confirmed). I'm not too much of a numbers guy, but his bench press number may turn some heads (strength+shorter arms.)

He'll need to show teams that he can run and change direction in coverage to fully reach his draft potential, but I think we'll find (a bit later on in the process) that coaches and scouts will fall in love with his play on the field, his effort/attitude/passion, and yes, his physical ability which I think will shock the draftniks and the casual fan.

As a prospect, I'm higher on him than former Purdue DE Anthony Spencer and former teammate LaMarr Woodley. Right now, I'm at the bold end of the Brandon Graham spectrum, grading him in the bottom half of the Top 15 (14th Overall on my board). This is not something where I'm telling you straight up you are wrong, that'd be stupid considering your position and the fact that we are early on in the process; but, it's a prediction that I feel fairly confident about.

He may not be the eye candy that Ricky Sapp is, or Jason Pierre-Paul is, but I think he'll attract a different type of evaluator. He's a gamer, a competitor, he's a football player, and he's going to shine in interviews (speculation). So basically, I'm going to call that Brandon Graham will be a Scott Wright favorite during Senior Bowl practices, and should end up in the first round in April.

Day One Pick
02-01-2010, 06:16 AM
This post was from December 22nd, in reaction to the scouting report and ranking on Graham.

Let me guess, there was no response to your post.

I'm not sure which is worse, Graham being 8th among DE's, or Taylor Mays as a top 10 prospect.

There's a big difference between ranking players, and actually evaluating them.

ThePudge
02-01-2010, 06:20 AM
Let me guess, there was no response to your post.

I'm not sure which is worse, Graham being 8th among DE's, or Taylor Mays as a top 10 prospect.

There's a big difference between ranking players, and actually evaluating them.

Eh, I don't blame him at all. While drafting, NFL teams tend to be superficial so draft-stocks have to be adjusted accordingly.

Shere Khan
02-01-2010, 08:18 AM
I can promise you this much:

If Graham falls to 21 somehow, the Bengals WILL grab him.

It's no secret that they wanted Lamarr Woodley a few years ago.
Plus, the Bengals like players from Michigan.

JoeJoeBrown
02-01-2010, 11:57 AM
My favorite fact about Graham is that he never beat Ohio State.

That's got to suck.

descendency
02-01-2010, 12:30 PM
I can promise you this much:

If Graham falls to 21 somehow, the Bengals WILL grab him.

It's no secret that they wanted Lamarr Woodley a few years ago.
Plus, the Bengals like players from Michigan.

The Bengals have no TE or deep WR. They'd be smarter going for Jermaine Gresham if available.

edit: Does Graham have an arrest record or something??? (just kidding)

killxswitch
02-01-2010, 12:56 PM
I guess after this Senior Bowl the Colts have no shot at getting him.

yourfavestoner
02-01-2010, 12:58 PM
I guess after this Senior Bowl the Colts have no shot at getting him.

TBH, I wouldn't complain if Jacksonville spent their pick at 10/11 on him. Give us our own Dwight Freeney to chase Peyton around.

Babylon
02-01-2010, 01:00 PM
The Bengals have no TE or deep WR. They'd be smarter going for Jermaine Gresham if available.

edit: Does Graham have an arrest record or something??? (just kidding)

Gresham was sighted for some violation back in the spring of 09 and didnt really handle the subsequent fallout from it very well. He's also coming off a knee injury. To me there are safer picks for the Bengals, better one's too.

killxswitch
02-01-2010, 01:15 PM
TBH, I wouldn't complain if Jacksonville spent their pick at 10/11 on him. Give us our own Dwight Freeney to chase Peyton around.

If he's not coming to the Colts I hope he stays the hell out of the AFC South. The only QB-terrorizing midgets in the division should be Colts!

P-L
02-01-2010, 01:18 PM
My favorite fact about Graham is that he never beat Ohio State.

That's got to suck.
His team never won a game against the Buckeyes, but he put up quite a beating on their offensive line throughout his career. http://draftcountdown.com/forum/images/icons/icon12.gif

P-L
02-01-2010, 01:22 PM
LOL.


Long did not dominate Gholston at all.
Long and Gholston barely matched up that game. Yeah, I know Vernon got one sack on Jake but Vernon went up against RT Steve Schilling far more than he matched up with Long. Not that it's really relevant to this discussion.

Saints-Tigers
02-01-2010, 02:13 PM
I am not a big fan of the Freeney comparison. He plays a lot like him, but Graham isn't nearly the speed demon Freeney is.

JoeJoeBrown
02-01-2010, 03:14 PM
His team never won a game against the Buckeyes, but he put up quite a beating on their offensive line throughout his career. http://draftcountdown.com/forum/images/icons/icon12.gif

He's a great player. I'm just busting on you UM fans :) I still remember the 90's too well...

He will be a very good NFL player if he is teamed up with someone else on the line that demands a double team or the chip block from a back. I.e. I think he will be a great complementary player. Due to his lack of size, I don't think he can be "the man" if offenses can focus their blocking schemes on him.

Any team with a great DE, DT, or NT (depending on scheme) would have a stellar D-Line with him out there. The kid has a motor and more importantly the desire to play the game. Contrast that with someone like Gholston who has absolutely no desire to be out there selling out on every play.

When you are looking at the top players out there, you need to see if they are football players. There are too many people drafted that are physical freaks that suck at football.

RealityCheck
02-01-2010, 03:16 PM
I can promise you this much:

If Graham falls to 21 somehow, the Bengals WILL grab him.

It's no secret that they wanted Lamarr Woodley a few years ago.
Plus, the Bengals like players from Michigan.
No. The voices in my head shout the words "Gilyard" and "Bengals" and the number "21" all the time. It's getting annoying.

yourfavestoner
02-01-2010, 03:17 PM
I am not a big fan of the Freeney comparison. He plays a lot like him, but Graham isn't nearly the speed demon Freeney is.

Over 40 yards, no. But their burst off the line is very comparable.

clay_allison
02-01-2010, 03:17 PM
I was just watching the senior bowl again and he really impressed me a lot. I'm looking forward to watching him play in the NFL.

fear the elf
02-01-2010, 03:27 PM
He's a great player. I'm just busting on you UM fans :) I still remember the 90's too well...

He will be a very good NFL player if he is teamed up with someone else on the line that demands a double team or the chip block from a back. I.e. I think he will be a great complementary player. Due to his lack of size, I don't think he can be "the man" if offenses can focus their blocking schemes on him.

Any team with a great DE, DT, or NT (depending on scheme) would have a stellar D-Line with him out there. The kid has a motor and more importantly the desire to play the game. Contrast that with someone like Gholston who has absolutely no desire to be out there selling out on every play.

When you are looking at the top players out there, you need to see if they are football players. There are too many people drafted that are physical freaks that suck at football.

God, that #1 vs. #2 game in 2006 was epic. I'm so glad I was there for it. I just regret not rushing the field. It almost made up for my traumatic and tormented childhood. Growing up on the Ohio/Michigan border, when 80% of your friends were UM fans, in the 90's... it was a brutal time.

JoeJoeBrown
02-01-2010, 03:47 PM
God, that #1 vs. #2 game in 2006 was epic. I'm so glad I was there for it. I just regret not rushing the field. It almost made up for my traumatic and tormented childhood. Growing up on the Ohio/Michigan border, when 80% of your friends were UM fans, in the 90's... it was a brutal time.

You were at the game? That game was epic. You should have rushed the field.

My buddy sat on the goalposts after the 2002 UM game. He lost a shoe and got teargassed but he made it into plenty of cool pics :)

fear the elf
02-01-2010, 04:01 PM
You were at the game? That game was epic. You should have rushed the field.

My buddy sat on the goalposts after the 2002 UM game. He lost a shoe and got teargassed but he made it into plenty of cool pics :)

Haha, that is sweet. A good story to tell after the fact. Yeah, I went to OSU from 03-07. I kinda wish I was a year older, so I could've been there for the National Championship game. (the one we actually won!)

Two of my friends and I drove out to Arizona for the NC against Florida. About 26 hours straight, one way. That was a let down. And then to top it off, one friend got car sick on the way home and ralphed in the car. Worst ride home ever.

molenguinurtle
02-01-2010, 06:10 PM
TBH, I wouldn't complain if Jacksonville spent their pick at 10/11 on him. Give us our own Dwight Freeney to chase Peyton around.

^^^This. Graham-Knighton-Henderson-Harvey sounds good to me.

Shere Khan
02-02-2010, 10:37 AM
No. The voices in my head shout the words "Gilyard" and "Bengals" and the number "21" all the time. It's getting annoying.

I can't remember the last time the Bengals selected a WR in the first round.
Oh, yeah, Peter Warrick. NM

I'm sure the Bengals like Gilyard, but I'm also certain that he isn't the 21st best player on their board.....I can see them perhaps trading down and getting him, but not at their current spot.

Jakey
02-02-2010, 12:37 PM
I love me some Brandon Graham allot!

But i just got my arms measured...and my arms are 30 1/2" (the same as grahams) and im a short 5'8" :eek:

He must look really out of proportion XD

ThePudge
02-02-2010, 12:51 PM
No. The voices in my head shout the words "Gilyard" and "Bengals" and the number "21" all the time. It's getting annoying.

Turn that **** down and crank up the Brandon Graham, Jermaine Gresham, Mike Iupati, Earl Thomas station.

clay_allison
02-02-2010, 02:12 PM
I love me some Brandon Graham allot!

But i just got my arms measured...and my arms are 30 1/2" (the same as grahams) and im a short 5'8" :eek:

He must look really out of proportion XD
Short arms are not too much of a disadvantage if he plays strong with them and plays with leverage (and he does!) he can get inside and bull rush a guy that weighs a lot more than he does.

CLong4Heisman
02-02-2010, 02:21 PM
My favorite fact about Graham is that he never beat Ohio State.

That's got to suck.

My favorite fact about Peyton Manning is that he never beat Florida. That stuff means nothing in the pros

fear the elf
02-02-2010, 02:43 PM
My favorite fact about Peyton Manning is that he never beat Florida. That stuff means nothing in the pros

My favorite fact about CLong4Heisman is that he doesn't read the thread before he posts.

Sniper
02-02-2010, 02:47 PM
God, that #1 vs. #2 game in 2006 was epic. I'm so glad I was there for it. I just regret not rushing the field. It almost made up for my traumatic and tormented childhood. Growing up on the Ohio/Michigan border, when 80% of your friends were UM fans, in the 90's... it was a brutal time.

A little something to torture you...

http://thefreshxpress.com/freshxp/wp-content/uploads/2009/08/charles_woodson.jpg

fear the elf
02-02-2010, 02:57 PM
I don't like you very much right now. :(

To quote myself from earlier in this thread.

FlyingElvis
02-02-2010, 03:03 PM
Well, I knew the Senior Bowl would overrate him, but not this much.

Of course. Then the mancrushes swing elsewhere once we hit the combine.

It'll drop again after the combine and pro-days.

Bingo.


Graham at 22 would be nice. All I want for draft day is one of the following guys available and, more importantly, selected at 22:
Brandon Graham
Sergio Kindle
C.J. Spiller

Vikes99ej
02-02-2010, 03:08 PM
I just remember in NCAA a few years ago he was a 99 after his freshman year.

JoeJoeBrown
02-02-2010, 05:24 PM
A little something to torture you...

http://thefreshxpress.com/freshxp/wp-content/uploads/2009/08/charles_woodson.jpg

Ouch.

BTW, did you know that Jim Tressel has more Big Ten wins in Michigan Stadium than Rich Rod?

J-Mike88
02-03-2010, 08:11 AM
Graham is a sure-thing at OLB.
But I believe he could also succeed in a role like Dwight Freeney.
I'm not sure of the shuttle times, the 40-times, the cones, all that, or the arm and hand and finger measurements. But when I watch Graham, it reminds me an awful lot of Freeney. Imagine Graham playing on that turf of Lucas Oil Stadium. Or is it the Colts Dome?

Sniper
02-03-2010, 08:12 AM
Ouch.

BTW, did you know that Jim Tressel has more Big Ten wins in Michigan Stadium than Rich Rod?

Yep. Did you know that football existed before Jim Tressel took over at Ohio State?

killxswitch
02-03-2010, 08:40 AM
Graham is a sure-thing at OLB.
But I believe he could also succeed in a role like Dwight Freeney.
I'm not sure of the shuttle times, the 40-times, the cones, all that, or the arm and hand and finger measurements. But when I watch Graham, it reminds me an awful lot of Freeney. Imagine Graham playing on that turf of Lucas Oil Stadium. Or is it the Colts Dome?

The Colts could really use a player like Graham to rotate with Freeney and Mathis. I have a feeling things like Freeney's injury are going to become more and more common and we have no edge rushers after the starting DEs.

I've never heard it called the "Colts Dome". Just Lucas Oil Stadium. It's not really a dome anyway.

ironman4579
02-27-2010, 11:42 AM
f-Aky4TdRuI

MiWolves
02-27-2010, 02:22 PM
f-Aky4TdRuI

If he does that at the combine holy shizzle

descendency
02-27-2010, 08:20 PM
I hope he looks outstanding in the linebacker drills.

ironman4579
02-27-2010, 09:01 PM
According to Scott's results page, he also had a 32+ inch arm length. So after having an arm length measured at 30 inches at the Senior Bowl, does that help him? It seems like it would, as that was a big concern for some.

ATLDirtyBirds
02-27-2010, 09:15 PM
I'm scared now that he won't be around when Atlanta picks.

TheSlinger
02-27-2010, 09:59 PM
According to Scott's results page, he also had a 32+ inch arm length. So after having an arm length measured at 30 inches at the Senior Bowl, does that help him? It seems like it would, as that was a big concern for some.

Uh, is that normal? Do arms... grow?

BaLLiN
02-27-2010, 10:05 PM
Uh, is that normal? Do arms... grow?

HGH!! PROTEIN!!! MUSCLE MILK!!!

well considering the combine and senior bowl are both covered by the NFLN, youd think they would keep things consistent, but maybe someone his the wrong number on their keyboard

ironman4579
02-27-2010, 10:25 PM
HGH!! PROTEIN!!! MUSCLE MILK!!!

well considering the combine and senior bowl are both covered by the NFLN, youd think they would keep things consistent, but maybe someone his the wrong number on their keyboard

I have a feeling it may have been a mismeasurement at the Senior Bowl. 32 inches just seems so much more right.

WCH
02-27-2010, 10:47 PM
Uh, is that normal? Do arms... grow?

At this rate, he'll have...like, 48 inch arms by week one of the 2010 season.


He'll probably also turn green, look at the opposing LT, and yell "HULK ... MAD!!!!!11"

Morton
02-28-2010, 06:44 PM
Brandon Graham did 31 reps on the benchpress at the combine. That's one less than Brian Orakpo last year and Ndamakung Suh this year, and more than alot of offensive linemen.

If he runs the 40 in anything less than 4.6 sec, he's a first round lock and I'm projecting him as the next Dwight Freeney.

Paranoidmoonduck
02-28-2010, 06:46 PM
Graham's already a first round lock so far as I'm concerned. The question is whether he can work his way into the top 20.

Morton
02-28-2010, 06:47 PM
Hell, barring some kind of injury, I think he's a lock to post double-digit sacks his rookie year.

ThePudge
02-28-2010, 06:49 PM
Hell, barring some kind of injury, I think he's a lock to post double-digit sacks his rookie year.

You don't even know what position he'll be playing in or whether he'll even have a chance to start as a rookie. I think everyone here should be a bit more conservative with the word "lock" in February, myself included.

Paranoidmoonduck
02-28-2010, 06:57 PM
You don't even know what position he'll be playing in or whether he'll even have a chance to start as a rookie. I think everyone here should be a bit more conservative with the word "lock" in February, myself included.

It's a lock that people will continue to use the word wantonly.

P-L
02-28-2010, 09:15 PM
Brandon Graham did 31 reps on the benchpress at the combine. That's one less than Brian Orakpo last year and Ndamakung Suh this year, and more than alot of offensive linemen.

If he runs the 40 in anything less than 4.6 sec, he's a first round lock and I'm projecting him as the next Dwight Freeney.
I would be mildly surprised if he ran a sub-4.6 40. He's ran a 4.56 recently and has been consistently ripping off 4.58's in his training, but I think his actual combine number will be a tad slower. I think his official will be in the 4.62-4.68 range.

bitonti
02-28-2010, 09:55 PM
its very possible they mis measured him at mobile

brandon graham is the best pass rusher in the entire draft... he could be a top 15 pick... tuna at 12 wouldn't be surprising, he's worth it. jpp probably goes higher than graham but he doesn't really deserve to... Graham has track speed, an arsenal of pass rush moves and great film. 27 career sacks with 2 against Bulaga in the same game.

Morton
02-28-2010, 10:02 PM
What did Dwight Freeney run at the combine in 2002? 4.48, right?

If Brandon runs a similar 40 (anywhere from high 4.4 to high 4.5), you have to imagine that GMs will take a look at history and realize that Freeney was the exact same prospect coming out of college, and people passed on him for similar reasons that concern them about Graham - namely, the height. But Freeney is arguably a top 3 DE right now, and there's really no reason, based on similar track records, intangibles, and measurables, to think that Graham won't have a similar career trajectory.

Freeney put up 13 sacks in his rookie year. I'm going to predict that, if he is started as a 4-3 DE, Graham puts up no less than 8.0 sacks in his rookie year.

Saints-Tigers
02-28-2010, 10:07 PM
He's nt going to run between 4.4 and 4.5, lets just end that right now.

He's one of my personal favorites, would love him to drop to us.

ironman4579
03-01-2010, 07:02 AM
He's nt going to run between 4.4 and 4.5, lets just end that right now.

He's one of my personal favorites, would love him to drop to us.

No, there's no chance he runs a sub 4.5. Although the guy did say high 4.5's, and Graham has been running around 4.56-4.58 consistently in training.

Is Graham capable of running a sub 4.6 at the combine? Clearly. Is it also possible and even likely he runs a high 4.6/low 4.7? Absolutely. What guys are capable of and what they actually put down at the combine can be two completely different things, as I think we all know.

That said, if he does run a low 4.7, I don't think it hurts him, as that seems to be what alot of people think he'll run anyway. Anything in the mid 4.6 range or better helps him.

Morton
03-01-2010, 08:54 AM
Well, he ran a high 4.6 both times in the 40, so he's definitely not the freak that Freeney was.

Scott Wright
03-01-2010, 09:10 AM
NFL Network had him at 4.69 and 4.69. I had him at 4.77 and 4.71.

Tweaked his hammy and won't do positional drills though.

bitonti
03-01-2010, 09:10 AM
Well, he ran a high 4.6 both times in the 40, so he's definitely not the freak that Freeney was.

Id have to look it up but freeney may have been 10-15 pounds lighter. Considering some of the WR like Shay Hodge were running 4.6's this is a very good time for a DE.