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View Full Version : Mike Mayock ranks the top 5 DT's post Senior Bowl.


Iamcanadian
02-08-2010, 07:41 PM
He says 12-14 DT's could go in the 1st 3 rounds. 4 or 5 likely for round 1.
Here's a video of his analysis.

http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-network-total-access/09000d5d8164db44/Mayock-top-5-DT

FloridaFootball
02-08-2010, 08:02 PM
He said he has Mccoy @ 1 and Suh 1a. He said their both amazing prospects

redbills
02-08-2010, 08:05 PM
Cam Thomas could play all 34 D-Line spots.

D-Unit
02-08-2010, 08:21 PM
Cam Thomas is everybody's favorite DL now that Mayock has mentioned him. Forget that he's been rated as a 5th-6h rounder for his career. Love it!

thule
02-08-2010, 08:27 PM
Cam Thomas is everybody's favorite DL now that Mayock has mentioned him. Forget that he's been rated as a 5th-6h rounder for his career. Love it!

When you put up against the best seniors in the nation that tends to raise your rating!

BeerBaron
02-08-2010, 08:49 PM
I think having McCoy "ahead" of Suh is strictly to cause a bit of a stir and hence, draw attention to himself. Wouldn't surprise me if this came up in a lot of sports shows in the coming days to be debated by whomever is on that day.

When all is said and done, I'd be very, very, very (yes, that deserved 3) surprised if McCoy goes ahead of Suh. Very.

Brent
02-08-2010, 08:56 PM
am I the only one who hates when sites will just post a video rather than asking their people write an article? sure, this was likely on TV and it's easy to just link it on the site, but I'd rather read a transcript of this than sit through watching it. That said, this could be a crazy year for DTs.

P-L
02-08-2010, 08:56 PM
Suh and McCoy are much closer as pro prospects than they were as college players. I have Suh as #1 personally, but I don't have a problem with Mayock having McCoy #1.

Thread Killer
02-08-2010, 09:01 PM
Wouldn't shock me if Mccoy went ahead of Suh. They are two different types of players and one might fit a certain scheme better than another.

Besides, Mayock isn't the only person I've seen rate McCoy higher.

TACKLE
02-08-2010, 09:09 PM
I think having McCoy "ahead" of Suh is strictly to cause a bit of a stir and hence, draw attention to himself. Wouldn't surprise me if this came up in a lot of sports shows in the coming days to be debated by whomever is on that day.

When all is said and done, I'd be very, very, very (yes, that deserved 3) surprised if McCoy goes ahead of Suh. Very.

Don't be that surprised. The Rams have two young NT's in Clifton Ryan and Dorrell Scott. Spags loves explosive, athletic D-Lineman. I think McCoy is a better prospect as a pure 3-tech because of his explosiveness. Not saying it will happen but don't be shocked if it does. Although in the end they both have the ability to be very disruptive and be a major factor against the run and the pass, they go about it in a very different way. A lot of it depends on which players' skill set is the best fits the type of DT a team wants for their defensive system.

wogitalia
02-08-2010, 09:18 PM
Anyone who takes McCoy ahead of Suh is making a very ballsy decision. Basically they would be bucking the trend and if it backfires they will have some serious egg on their face.

If it comes off you look good though. I personally think both are going to be very good but if you take McCoy first, he basically has to be better than Suh for you to win that pick.

diabsoule
02-08-2010, 09:20 PM
Anyone who takes McCoy ahead of Suh is making a very ballsy decision. Basically they would be bucking the trend and if it backfires they will have some serious egg on their face.

If it comes off you look good though. I personally think both are going to be very good but if you take McCoy first, he basically has to be better than Suh for you to win that pick.

People were saying the same thing when the Texans took Mario Williams over Reggie Bush. Just sayin.

thule
02-08-2010, 09:25 PM
Let's not forget when the colts took Edge over Ricky Williams...it all comes down to scheme and what you want out of a player.

D-Unit
02-08-2010, 09:26 PM
When you put up against the best seniors in the nation that tends to raise your rating!
I call that the "Gabe Watson" effect. Pull a couple of spin moves and walla!

Scotty D
02-08-2010, 09:29 PM
I was reading an article on PFT about this and they speculated that Mayock could be concerned with Suh's two knee surgeries.

ThePudge
02-08-2010, 09:34 PM
Don't be that surprised. The Rams have two young NT's in Clifton Ryan and Dorrell Scott. Spags loves explosive, athletic D-Lineman. I think McCoy is a better prospect as a pure 3-tech because of his explosiveness. Not saying it will happen but don't be shocked if it does. Although in the end they both have the ability to be very disruptive and be a major factor against the run and the pass, they go about it in a very different way. A lot of it depends on which players' skill set is the best fits the type of DT a team wants for their defensive system.

I completely agree. People need to realize how good Gerald McCoy is. There could be a serious argument made on him being a better fit for the Rams. There's not a doubt in my mind that McCoy is a superior fit as an UT in St. Louis' scheme. McCoy is noticeably quicker than Suh, more explosive, and projects as an elite penetrating, pass-rushing UT in a 4-3. Mario Williams/Reggie Bush could very well be the case this year.

MidwayMonster31
02-08-2010, 09:48 PM
I was reading an article on PFT about this and they speculated that Mayock could be concerned with Suh's two knee surgeries.This is a pretty sensible reason to pick McCoy instead of Suh. If Suh's knees don't check out at the combine then McCoy could be the first DT taken. That had a say in the Rams picking Chris Long instead of Glenn Dorsey (or the golf game, one of those two).
McCoy had a great season too, if Oklahoma was contending in the Big 12, then he would've got more pub. After Bradford got hurt, OU pretty much disappeared from the radar. I don't think there's much of a talent gap between the two.
Edit: I still think the Rams should go with Clausen.

BeerBaron
02-08-2010, 10:00 PM
This is a pretty sensible reason to pick McCoy instead of Suh. If Suh's knees don't check out at the combine then McCoy could be the first DT taken. That had a say in the Rams picking Chris Long instead of Glenn Dorsey (or the golf game, one of those two).
McCoy had a great season too, if Oklahoma was contending in the Big 12, then he would've got more pub. After Bradford got hurt, OU pretty much disappeared from the radar. I don't think there's much of a talent gap between the two.
Edit: I still think the Rams should go with Clausen.

Normally, I'd agree. However, this talk of them getting Vick seems to have a lot of merit and if they do that to try and at least temporarily solve the problem, they don't go QB #1 anymore.

Anyway, I really do think Suh is one of the top prospects that I've seen during my time following the draft closely. I truly think he will dominate wherever he ends up going. Detroit should be truly happy if the Rams go a direction other than Suh imo...

MidwayMonster31
02-08-2010, 10:17 PM
Normally, I'd agree. However, this talk of them getting Vick seems to have a lot of merit and if they do that to try and at least temporarily solve the problem, they don't go QB #1 anymore.

Anyway, I really do think Suh is one of the top prospects that I've seen during my time following the draft closely. I truly think he will dominate wherever he ends up going. Detroit should be truly happy if the Rams go a direction other than Suh imo...They are filling the quarterback need, even though I think it's a mistake.
No matter who the Lions pick (Suh or McCoy) would surely suck for us.

frubulubu
02-08-2010, 10:28 PM
two serious knee injuries, should mske for concern. If your a team like the Rams or Lions, who sre trying to build there teams. Wouldnt be surprise if one of the two teams traded out and acquire more picks. I wonder who would be intrested to trade up?

brasho
02-08-2010, 10:48 PM
I think Brian Price might turn out to be better than both of them.

FUNBUNCHER
02-08-2010, 11:32 PM
I don't think Suh's knee injuries were severe, I think they occurred his frosh year, but it is a red flag for a potential #1 overall who's not a QB.

McCoy in the end might be a 'safer' pick than McCoy in the mind of some GMs.

But I will say this, if the Lions nab Suh, they will be at least 8-8 and push for a wildcard(!) in 2010.

EDIT:

McCoy in the end might be a 'safer' pick than Suh in the mind of some GMs.

superman8456
02-08-2010, 11:39 PM
DT is one of the harder positions to transition into the NFL for. That's why there is a high boom or bust ratio with these guys.

I think Suh will be a great player, but his transition will take longer than McCoy's.

Thumper
02-08-2010, 11:51 PM
I am a little bit hesitant about Ndamukong Suh he doesn't seem like he is going to be a dominating player in the NFL, don't get me wrong he was amazing in college and deserved everything he was awarded but I just don't know if his play style transfers over to the NFL level well. He plays upright and he just overpowers people which is somewhat easy to do in the Big 12 and people will fall in love with his Texas performance but did he ever really go against a potential star at OG? His power game will not hold up against the likes of Hutch, Leonard Davis, Carl Nicks, Jahri Evans, Chris Snee etc. etc. etc. it just won't happen I don't care how powerful he was in college he isn't going to turn out in the NFL until he plays with better leverage and learns more pass rush moves. What he did at Nebraska isn't going to fly in the NFL IMO and he absolutely will not be able to dominate in the NFL the way he did in college, and plus drafting a DT in the Top 10 is a big risk and they have a high bust rate.

On the other hand I think McCoy makes the transition fairly quickly, he is fast and is a quick twitch guy at DT and big powerful offensive guards struggle with that, just look at what Tommie Harris and Kevin Williams did right away in the NFL.

General Zod
02-08-2010, 11:58 PM
Cam Thomas is everybody's favorite DL now that Mayock has mentioned him. Forget that he's been rated as a 5th-6h rounder for his career. Love it!

This.

I dont understand the big love affair with this guy suddenly.

wogitalia
02-09-2010, 12:26 AM
Mario Williams/Reggie Bush could very well be the case this year.

It's different in that those guys played different positions but it is otherwise similar, just that with the common Suh is much better known and thus the majority of fans are going to expect really big things from McCoy if you take him over Suh. Not a comment at all on their ability.

In ways I imagine it is close to the Kennedy/Kevin Williams picks but I can't be sure as I wasn't really around back then to know any better other than that taking Williams was a surprise to many, it also turned out pretty damn well for the Vikes. I imagine it is a similar situation.

SenorGato
02-09-2010, 12:33 AM
I like Cam Thomas, but I was saying that before it got cool.

Suh and McCoy are basically interchangeable...Suh, like anything else, is not as good as people say he is and also not as bad, if there's anyone saying that. I think he settles into a Darnell Dockett-esque player, which IMO is worth a top 5 pick. I really would like to see what he'd do on a 3-4 DL...

Jared Odrick will go in the 3rd on draft day...I don't buy the hype. Good, solid player but nothing special.

D-Unit
02-09-2010, 12:49 AM
No way does Odrick last to the 3rd. The need is too great for guys at his position.

I've said this before... Either Suh or McCoy will bust. I don't know which, but one of them will.

Cicero
02-09-2010, 01:23 AM
No way does Odrick last to the 3rd. The need is too great for guys at his position.

I've said this before... Either Suh or McCoy will bust. I don't know which, but one of them will.
.

Odrick won't make it out of the second round.

SenorGato
02-09-2010, 01:28 AM
No way does Odrick last to the 3rd. The need is too great for guys at his position.

I've said this before... Either Suh or McCoy will bust. I don't know which, but one of them will.

Oh, Odrick won't last 'til the 3rd but his best value would be there, especially for a 3-4 team. I think he'd make a nice rotational 3-4 DE who can possibly start down the road, but I just don't buy this 1st round hype.

I'd bet on McCoy busting out of the two. Suh's stronger and IMO the better athlete...though I guess combine can shed some light on that one.

Paranoidmoonduck
02-09-2010, 02:07 AM
I've said this before... Either Suh or McCoy will bust. I don't know which, but one of them will.

Explain to me the point of this statement. It appears you're just playing odds for kicks without providing any reasoning or meaning to it.

As for the idea that McCoy comes along quicker than Suh in the pros, I'd actually swing the other way. I think the argument can be made that McCoy has the higher ceiling, but I definitely think that he's further away from fulfilling it than Suh. Suh definitely relied on simply being stronger than the offensive lineman he faced; it allowed him to stay high and drive from the trunk and shoulder with enough force to get his man off balance. And while that won't work nearly as much in the NFL, he's considerably further ahead in a lot of regards when compared to McCoy. He mostly uses his hands better (I'll touch on this more in a second), he extends his arms better, he plays the gap better, he over-pursues less, he's far stouter, he tracks the ball better, he has better range, and his play recognition is simply fantastic. As for McCoy, he does one thing exceptionally: he slaps away the defender's first punch and rips or swims around his guy too fast for the lineman to do much more than grasp jersey. Granted, this is a pretty important thing to do as well as he does it and it's why his value is where it is. And, furthermore, there have been very good defensive tackles in the NFL who survived mostly on excelling in that aspect (Sapp is the most poignant recent example), but I definitely don't think McCoy is going to be at that level right off the bat. He still falters way too often if his initial slap doesn't work and the rest of his game isn't really at the level where that can be ignored.

Suh will have to adjust to the NFL, there is no doubt. That said, while McCoy still needs to develop his football skills and pass rush game, Suh has already one of the best developed sets of football skills I've ever seen from a defensive lineman coming out of college. Yes, he'll have to learn to get lower consistently and will sacrifice some vision and control in doing so, but I think that will prove to be a much smaller adjustment than what McCoy faces.

Saints-Tigers
02-09-2010, 02:42 AM
I think people are overthinking things with Suh. The dude was downright dominant and is going to make a big impact right from the jump.

ABoyNamedSuh
02-09-2010, 02:55 AM
Explain to me the point of this statement. It appears you're just playing odds for kicks without providing any reasoning or meaning to it.

As for the idea that McCoy comes along quicker than Suh in the pros, I'd actually swing the other way. I think the argument can be made that McCoy has the higher ceiling, but I definitely think that he's further away from fulfilling it than Suh. Suh definitely relied on simply being stronger than the offensive lineman he faced; it allowed him to stay high and drive from the trunk and shoulder with enough force to get his man off balance. And while that won't work nearly as much in the NFL, he's considerably further ahead in a lot of regards when compared to McCoy. He mostly uses his hands better (I'll touch on this more in a second), he extends his arms better, he plays the gap better, he over-pursues less, he's far stouter, he tracks the ball better, he has better range, and his play recognition is simply fantastic. As for McCoy, he does one thing exceptionally: he slaps away the defender's first punch and rips or swims around his guy too fast for the lineman to do much more than grasp jersey. Granted, this is a pretty important thing to do as well as he does it and it's why his value is where it is. And, furthermore, there have been very good defensive tackles in the NFL who survived mostly on excelling in that aspect (Sapp is the most poignant recent example), but I definitely don't think McCoy is going to be at that level right off the bat. He still falters way too often if his initial slap doesn't work and the rest of his game isn't really at the level where that can be ignored.

Suh will have to adjust to the NFL, there is no doubt. That said, while McCoy still needs to develop his football skills and pass rush game, Suh has already one of the best developed sets of football skills I've ever seen from a defensive lineman coming out of college. Yes, he'll have to learn to get lower consistently and will sacrifice some vision and control in doing so, but I think that will prove to be a much smaller adjustment than what McCoy faces.

Great post.

frubulubu
02-09-2010, 08:27 AM
I don't think Suh's knee injuries were severe, I think they occurred his frosh year, but it is a red flag for a potential #1 overall who's not a QB.

McCoy in the end might be a 'safer' pick than McCoy in the mind of some GMs.

But I will say this, if the Lions nab Suh, they will be at least 8-8 and push for a wildcard(!) in 2010.

Sue is a great addition to any team, especially, for a struggling one like the Lions. However, this team is still not ready to compete for a wildcard, or go .500.

Babylon
02-09-2010, 11:32 AM
Like Suh better between the two from what i saw this year. Arguably McCoy has more help around him at OU than Suh who saw nothing but double teams all year. The Rams i think would like him better for his potential as a 3-4 DE. Reminds me of a young Richard Seymour if i need a comparison.

brat316
02-09-2010, 12:14 PM
what you guys think about Andre Neblett from Temple

brasho
02-09-2010, 03:11 PM
I am a little bit hesitant about Ndamukong Suh he doesn't seem like he is going to be a dominating player in the NFL, don't get me wrong he was amazing in college and deserved everything he was awarded but I just don't know if his play style transfers over to the NFL level well. He plays upright and he just overpowers people which is somewhat easy to do in the Big 12 and people will fall in love with his Texas performance but did he ever really go against a potential star at OG? His power game will not hold up against the likes of Hutch, Leonard Davis, Carl Nicks, Jahri Evans, Chris Snee etc. etc. etc. it just won't happen I don't care how powerful he was in college he isn't going to turn out in the NFL until he plays with better leverage and learns more pass rush moves. What he did at Nebraska isn't going to fly in the NFL IMO and he absolutely will not be able to dominate in the NFL the way he did in college, and plus drafting a DT in the Top 10 is a big risk and they have a high bust rate.

On the other hand I think McCoy makes the transition fairly quickly, he is fast and is a quick twitch guy at DT and big powerful offensive guards struggle with that, just look at what Tommie Harris and Kevin Williams did right away in the NFL.


I have to admit, I once was crazy drinking the Suh-aide.His performances against Missouri, Texas, and others in the Big 12 had me thinking he was Suh-perman. But then I watched the bowl game against Arizona's 330 lb maulers at OG... and he struggled. he made a couple of plays but he was neutralized for most of the game. Then I looked back at what he did against Texas Tech's 330 lb monster OG Brandon Carter, again he struggled.

We're talking about a 291 lb 5th year senior that was much stronger and way more technically sound than a bunch of 20 year old 300 lb finesse Big 12 o-linemen. But then when he played against the bigguns, he didn't stand out. Don't think for a second that him being 23 years old with 5 years in the Husker weight training program and 5 years to hone his technique isn't a big advantage, it always is on the line (how else could 6th year senior Gaines Adams have been so dominant in college and so average in the NFL-at 24 he was far closer to physical maturity than the 20-21 year olds he played against). Anyway, I just don't think he is going to be able to physically maul 27-28 year old 330 lb NFL OGs. I'm not saying he won't be good, but in college he was a man among boys, in the NFL he'll simply be a man against other men. He'll be pretty good, but he's not a sure-fire Hall-of-Famer, I don't think he'll even be a perennial pro bowler.

As for McCoy, I believe he has the physical set to excel in his first year in the league but I don't really see the great motor or ability to locate the ball (never has had decent tackle numbers) to be a can't miss prospect either. He's a 4th year junior so he doesn't quite have the advantage Suh has had physically and experience-wise. I think he has a better chance of success if he can get into the right (one-gap) scheme.

The guy I'm most interested in is Brian Price. As a true junior he had a season comparable to Suh's and superior to McCoy. He began bis domination last season in his 2nd year, a year neither McCoy or Suh did much of anything in, despite playing in more of a pro style conference and against . bigger and stronger o-linemen as opposed to the finesse spread-crazy Big 12. Price has a great motor, good quickness, but could really learn to use his hands better, which should come with experience. Of the three, he is the least pro ready, but of the three, he is the one I would project to be best in 3 sesaons.

brasho
02-09-2010, 03:17 PM
Like Suh better between the two from what i saw this year. Arguably McCoy has more help around him at OU than Suh who saw nothing but double teams all year. The Rams i think would like him better for his potential as a 3-4 DE. Reminds me of a young Richard Seymour if i need a comparison.

Seymour was far taller and faster than Suh.

I don't think you can make the argument that McCoy had more help... besides that, there really was no comparison, Suh definitely had the better season, but McCoy had Jeremy Beal on the outside while Suh had Crick and Turner and was backed up by a guy that is supposed to be a future monster in Steinkhuler.

superman8456
02-09-2010, 03:29 PM
.

Odrick won't make it out of the second round.

I think he won't make it out of the 1st. I'm sure one of the Cowboys, Chagers, Jets, Saints, Colts GM's in the later round are going to take a long hard look at him.

brasho
02-09-2010, 03:34 PM
I don't think Odrick makes it out of the top 40.

Babylon
02-09-2010, 03:37 PM
Seymour was far taller and faster than Suh.

I don't think you can make the argument that McCoy had more help... besides that, there really was no comparison, Suh definitely had the better season, but McCoy had Jeremy Beal on the outside while Suh had Crick and Turner and was backed up by a guy that is supposed to be a future monster in Steinkhuler.

You might be right about the supporting cast. As for speed i dont think we know the differance yet. The thing i like about Suh is his hands, best i've seen since Reggie White.

I'm not trying to downgrade McCoy at all. i happen to think both are exceptional.

brasho
02-09-2010, 03:44 PM
I can't think of an NFL comparison to Suh right now, usually I'm good at this but I don't know. To me, Suh is a smaller but more powerful DT with great technique, decent speed, but not exceptional feet or quickness.

brasho
02-09-2010, 03:48 PM
Maybe a Ray Agnew Cortez Kennedy mix.

brasho
02-09-2010, 03:55 PM
Ok, I've thought long and hard and here is my NFL comparison based on what I had stated about Suh, a smaller but powerful DT with decent speed and quickness. Former Redskin DT Darryl Grant.

ThePudge
02-09-2010, 04:10 PM
Ok, I've thought long and hard and here is my NFL comparison based on what I had stated about Suh, a smaller but powerful DT with decent speed and quickness. Former Redskin DT Darryl Grant.

6'4 300 is small now? He's not Mount Cody, but he's still not a little guy at all. His playing weight was typically around 290-295 in college, but I'd imagine he'll be playing between 300-305 with more work on his lower body strength in the NFL. No comparison needed, and no exact comparison out there. Ndamukong Suh is unique.. we'll see if he'll be a Ram or Lion and what he'll be doing at the next level in the 4-3.

brasho
02-09-2010, 04:53 PM
6'4 300 is small now? He's not Mount Cody, but he's still not a little guy at all. His playing weight was typically around 290-295 in college, but I'd imagine he'll be playing between 300-305 with more work on his lower body strength in the NFL. No comparison needed, and no exact comparison out there. Ndamukong Suh is unique.. we'll see if he'll be a Ram or Lion and what he'll be doing at the next level in the 4-3.


How many NFL DT's played this season at 291? Not many if any. He is smaller, he's not tiny but he'll be 24 this seasonand he isn't getting a heckuva lot bigger and you would have to consider him to be on the small side, especially considering he is considered a "power DT" and not a penetrating UT-type.

As for the comparisons, why not? We do it for everybody else, and me saying that his game reminds me of Brodrick Bunkley at DT or Luis Castillo if he were to play a 30 DE are valid comparisons (and the ones I think I'm settling on) and good to see how they will project in the NFL. ANd I don't think he will be much if any better than either Bunkley or Castillo, that's not a bad player but he's never going to dominate the way he did in the Big 12.

FUNBUNCHER
02-09-2010, 05:10 PM
If Suh is consistently blocked by a guard one on one with no help in the NFL, he will quickly become a star in the pros.

One Suh masters better use of his hands, proper leverage, coupled with his immense power, IMO he won't be able to be single-blocked by most NFL interior lineman.
Folks tend to question Suh's ability to penetrate and attack an offensive backfield, as if he can't do it.
In Pelini's D scheme at Nebraska Suh appeared to be playing in a much more read, diagnose the play, then react mode than a player like McCoy was at OU.

And if I'm not mistaken, Cards DT Darnell Dockett is well short of 300#, yet his play clearly was not limited by his lack of bulk.

Agility, technique and raw strength can more than compensate for lack of pure tonnage.

IMO, if Suh gains 15 pounds, it won't negatively affect his play. Recall this guy has a V-taper to his upper body and doesn't have much if any excess flab jiggling on his physique.
His 'smallness' is relative; in 2-3 years he'll be a 315 pounder.

If the best projection for Suh in the NFL is Lous Castillo or Broderick Bunkley, Suh shouldn't even sniff the top 5.

Bradentonian
02-09-2010, 06:04 PM
The guy I'm most interested in is Brian Price. As a true junior he had a season comparable to Suh's and superior to McCoy. He began bis domination last season in his 2nd year, a year neither McCoy or Suh did much of anything in, despite playing in more of a pro style conference and against . bigger and stronger o-linemen as opposed to the finesse spread-crazy Big 12. Price has a great motor, good quickness, but could really learn to use his hands better, which should come with experience. Of the three, he is the least pro ready, but of the three, he is the one I would project to be best in 3 sesaons.


Price reminds me a lot of Mike "Baby Sapp" Patterson

Bradentonian
02-09-2010, 06:06 PM
Suh definitely relied on simply being stronger than the offensive lineman he faced; it allowed him to stay high and drive from the trunk and shoulder with enough force to get his man off balance.

This also put a lot of extra torque on his knees, something that will get even worse when the lineman he's trying to throw around are 30 pounds heavier. If he doesn't learn quickly to play lower and drive with his lower body I think he will be an injury risk.

Menardo75
02-09-2010, 06:58 PM
The only rankings Mayock is ever right on are rankings for DB's. Everything else he just trys to get attention by being different, it's quite meaningless.

Addict
02-10-2010, 05:10 AM
I think having McCoy "ahead" of Suh is strictly to cause a bit of a stir and hence, draw attention to himself. Wouldn't surprise me if this came up in a lot of sports shows in the coming days to be debated by whomever is on that day.

When all is said and done, I'd be very, very, very (yes, that deserved 3) surprised if McCoy goes ahead of Suh. Very.

did you just look at the order and disregarded everything else? Mayock made it clear that he puts McCoy ahead of Suh essentially on a personal preference and that they're essentiall 1 and 1a, with a big dropoff afer that. Really if this is the kind of 'stir' he's going with this year he's lost his touch.

to be honest I thought it was about time that someone put McCoy first, because everyone keeps saying they feel Suh and McCoy are 1 and 1a, but then consistently put Suh first. Like Mayock says, McCoy is a Warren Sapp-type player and Suh is a Kevin Williams-type player, it's just a matter of what you like in a DT.

brasho
02-10-2010, 09:54 AM
And if I'm not mistaken, Cards DT Darnell Dockett is well short of 300#, yet his play clearly was not limited by his lack of bulk.



If the best projection for Suh in the NFL is Lous Castillo or Broderick Bunkley, Suh shouldn't even sniff the top 5.


Considering Dockett weighed in at exactly 297 at the combine in 2006 and he looks to have gotten a tad bigger, it is safe to assume that he has gained at least 3 lbs and would not qualify as "as well short of 300".

Considering Bunkley was a mid 1st and the best of a very mediocre group of DL, led by him and Ngata, he should have been picked higher. And considering Castillo is far better than all other DL and most other prospects in the terrible 2005 draft, he should have been a top 10 pick.

Like I said, I like Suh, I like him a lot, I just don't think he has superstar written all over him.


I noticed one guy on here said the Lions take Suh and immediately go 8-8 because he's such a great prospect. I remember people said the same thing when they drafted Calvin Johnson, only two seasons before they went 0-16.

One player, particularly Suh, whether he can be compared to Kevin Williams, Bunkley or Castillo, is not going to turn around a terrible team and add 6-7 wins to their record.

SenorGato
02-10-2010, 09:58 AM
One player, particularly Suh, whether he can be compared to Kevin Williams, Bunkley or Castillo, is not going to turn around a terrible team and add 6-7 wins to their record.

That's not the point. Only a fool would be convinced any one player can chance a franchise (except a QB)...Suh WOULD give that D a DL to build around. If he ends up in the class of Dockett or Castillo then he's well worth a top 5 pick too...Dockett is one of the most underrated players in the league...

brasho
02-10-2010, 10:15 AM
That's not the point. Only a fool would be convinced any one player can chance a franchise (except a QB)...Suh WOULD give that D a DL to build around. If he ends up in the class of Dockett or Castillo then he's well worth a top 5 pick too...Dockett is one of the most underrated players in the league...

Thanks for restating my point. I had stated that no player is going to change a team's fortunes that much after somebody else said he would.

I do think Suh is worthy of top 5, even top 3 status. I just don't think he is God like most other people do. I never compared him, BTW, to Dockett, and neither did anybody else. I did state, however, that in comparing him to Bunkley or Castillo that it was a good thing, not saying he would be a mid-first or late first like those two were because if those drafts were re-drafted, both players would be top 5-10 selections.

Addict
02-10-2010, 10:16 AM
That's not the point. Only a fool would be convinced any one player can chance a franchise (except a QB)...Suh WOULD give that D a DL to build around. If he ends up in the class of Dockett or Castillo then he's well worth a top 5 pick too...Dockett is one of the most underrated players in the league...

Even a QB does not a good team make.

brasho
02-10-2010, 10:22 AM
I don't think Suh's knee injuries were severe, I think they occurred his frosh year, but it is a red flag for a potential #1 overall who's not a QB.

McCoy in the end might be a 'safer' pick than McCoy in the mind of some GMs.

But I will say this, if the Lions nab Suh, they will be at least 8-8 and push for a wildcard(!) in 2010.

^^^^^^^

Suh doesn't completely turn around this team by himself, he's not that good, nobody is/was.

I do agree with the point that McCOy might be a 'safer' pick than McCoy, though. But you know who would be an even better pick than McCoy? McCoy would and if not him then definitely McCoy unless a team prefers McCoy. Just kidding!

brasho
02-10-2010, 10:24 AM
Even a QB does not a good team make.

I don't know, there was one QB that could pretty much turn any 14-2 team's fortunes around and make them a contender for 9-7...of course that same player could also be put on a 14-2 team and also make them 9-7, that man was Vick in his prime. Vick, in his prime, was always good enough to keep both teams in the game.

AntoinCD
02-10-2010, 10:25 AM
That's not the point. Only a fool would be convinced any one player can chance a franchise (except a QB)...Suh WOULD give that D a DL to build around. If he ends up in the class of Dockett or Castillo then he's well worth a top 5 pick too...Dockett is one of the most underrated players in the league...

Really??? I know Dockett's underrated but you think overall he's what a top 5 pick should be? And Castillo??? Come on now. Defensive tackles in the top 5 literally need to be game changing elite level DTs in the NFL and while Dockett is a pro bowler he is not on the level of say Kevin Williams etc. And Castillo is not even close

brasho
02-10-2010, 10:31 AM
Really??? I know Dockett's underrated but you think overall he's what a top 5 pick should be? And Castillo??? Come on now. Defensive tackles in the top 5 literally need to be game changing elite level DTs in the NFL and while Dockett is a pro bowler he is not on the level of say Kevin Williams etc. And Castillo is not even close

In defense of el Senor, if we were to redraft, both players would be taken much higher than their original selections.

As far as Castillo, he is an excellent player but because he is a 3-4 DE he will never get the numbers that a 4-3 UT or a 4-3 DE will get. But he is very solid, which I see Suh being, I just don't know if he will ever be spectacular. Teams are built around several solid players and Suh can be part of that, but he is not going to be Reggie White or Warren Sapp, completely changing games the way he did in college.

AntoinCD
02-10-2010, 11:19 AM
Yeah I agree they would be drafted higher than they originally were, in Dockett's case maybe top ten. But for a top 5 DT I either want someone like Kevin Williams to play in the 43 or Richard Seymour at 5 technique.

PossumBoy9
02-10-2010, 11:46 AM
I think having McCoy "ahead" of Suh is strictly to cause a bit of a stir and hence, draw attention to himself. Wouldn't surprise me if this came up in a lot of sports shows in the coming days to be debated by whomever is on that day.

When all is said and done, I'd be very, very, very (yes, that deserved 3) surprised if McCoy goes ahead of Suh. Very.

It wouldn't surprise me if the Rams go DT, they go McCoy.

Like Suh better between the two from what i saw this year. Arguably McCoy has more help around him at OU than Suh who saw nothing but double teams all year. The Rams i think would like him better for his potential as a 3-4 DE. Reminds me of a young Richard Seymour if i need a comparison.

The Rams are a 4-3 team.

PossumBoy9
02-10-2010, 12:05 PM
IMO, if Suh gains 15 pounds, it won't negatively affect his play. Recall this guy has a V-taper to his upper body and doesn't have much if any excess flab jiggling on his physique.
His 'smallness' is relative; in 2-3 years he'll be a 315 pounder.


How would gaining weight affect his knees?

Rosebud
02-10-2010, 12:32 PM
I'm a little surprised there's more discussion about McCoy over Suh than Odrick over Price and Dan Williams.

princefielder28
02-10-2010, 01:28 PM
I'm a little surprised there's more discussion about McCoy over Suh than Odrick over Price and Dan Williams.

When I rank Odrick I place him with the DTs but I would be suprised if he doesn't end up as a 3-4 end. I don't think he should be rated higher than Williams or Price and I think Lamarr Houston gives him a solid run to round out the Top 5.

FUNBUNCHER
02-10-2010, 07:08 PM
^^^^^^^

Suh doesn't completely turn around this team by himself, he's not that good, nobody is/was.

I do agree with the point that McCOy might be a 'safer' pick than McCoy, though. But you know who would be an even better pick than McCoy? McCoy would and if not him then definitely McCoy unless a team prefers McCoy. Just kidding!


LOL!!

I deserved that, even funnier after a re-read!!

Addict
02-10-2010, 07:32 PM
I noticed one guy on here said the Lions take Suh and immediately go 8-8 because he's such a great prospect. I remember people said the same thing when they drafted Calvin Johnson, only two seasons before they went 0-16.


I can't recall anyone saying we'd be a winning team with Calvin, most realised that Calvin wasn't gonna instnatly win us eight games. We were exited though, for good reason since he was (and is still) one of the highest ranked college WR's (and players) to come to the NFL.

Regardless, Suh might be a major step for the Lions (or McCoy for that matter) one of our biggest problems is a lack of pressure on the qb because we have very little talent at the DL positions. 'fixing' that is a big step because then the linebackers (who aren't all taht bad) can do their job and the D might be kinda decent. Although the secondary still bloooows.

FUNBUNCHER
02-10-2010, 07:48 PM
How would gaining weight affect his knees?

Someone was arguing that Suh was relatively undersized at rough 295#(est.) and lacked the bulk to dominate in the NFL. My point was I don't see a problem with Suh gaining weight and still being the same player he was as a top pro prospect.

When Reggie White left the USFL and signed with the Eagles, in his first TC he weighed 267 pounds! Gaining 'good weight' all depends on a player's genetics and work ethic, IMO.

As for Suh potentially quadrupling the Lions win total from 2009, consider they were competitive in many games last year and were also starting a rookie QB.
Their poor defense kept them out of the win column more often than not.

In 2010 with a possible difference-maker at DT they should be able to rush the passer and create more one on one opportunities for the rest of their Dline.
Detroit still has the most physically gifted WR in the game, and he and Stafford should only get better together in '10.
Maybe threatening for a wildcard is a bit optimistic(!), but 6-8 wins doesn't seem that far fetched to me.

Addict
02-10-2010, 08:31 PM
Someone was arguing that Suh was relatively undersized at rough 295#(est.) and lacked the bulk to dominate in the NFL. My point was I don't see a problem with Suh gaining weight and still being the same player he was as a top pro prospect.

When Reggie White left the USFL and signed with the Eagles, in his first TC he weighed 267 pounds! Gaining 'good weight' all depends on a player's genetics and work ethic, IMO.

As for Suh potentially quadrupling the Lions win total from 2009, consider they were competitive in many games last year and were also starting a rookie QB.
Their poor defense kept them out of the win column more often than not.

In 2010 with a possible difference-maker at DT they should be able to rush the passer and create more one on one opportunities for the rest of their Dline.
Detroit still has the most physically gifted WR in the game, and he and Stafford should only get better together in '10.
Maybe threatening for a wildcard is a bit optimistic(!), but 6-8 wins doesn't seem that far fetched to me.

most detroit fans are hoping that with a good draft we can move to 5-7 win territory.

vidae
02-10-2010, 08:35 PM
I don't see why you couldn't. If the Lions draft like they did last year they will be a dangerous team. Last years draft was fantastic and being in prime position to get a game changer on defense is not a bad place to be.

Stranger
02-10-2010, 08:44 PM
Really??? I know Dockett's underrated but you think overall he's what a top 5 pick should be? And Castillo??? Come on now. Defensive tackles in the top 5 literally need to be game changing elite level DTs in the NFL and while Dockett is a pro bowler he is not on the level of say Kevin Williams etc. And Castillo is not even close

I am a bit biased as a Cards fan but I don't think the gap between Williams and Dockett is that big anymore.

William's last three seasons:

128 tackles 17.5 sacks 2 Int 3 FF

Dockett's last three seasons:

158 tackles 20 sacks 1 Int 3 FF

Obviously stats are not everything but I think they both produce at the level expected for an elite interior lineman. It is a bit difficult to compare them now that Dockett plays primarily as a 3-4 DE but since you mentioned Seymour, Dockett's production this year is pretty much in line with Seymours best at NE. Seymour is better against the run though.

romo4prez415
02-10-2010, 11:08 PM
Cam Thomas is everybody's favorite DL now that Mayock has mentioned him. Forget that he's been rated as a 5th-6h rounder for his career. Love it!

I'm with you. He looked good in some 1 on 1 pass rush drills but in 11 on 11 never stood out and played too high for my liking in the run game and couldnt hold the point against double teams. Yeah he's big but I'm wary of a guy that didnt receieve and conference honors as a senior on a defense with alot of eyes watching guys like Marvin Austin and Bruce Carter, and Sturdivant. I think he's going to be overdrafted and based on his lack of college production I wouldnt take him until the 4th round at the highest.

wogitalia
02-10-2010, 11:40 PM
I am a bit biased as a Cards fan but I don't think the gap between Williams and Dockett is that big anymore.

William's last three seasons:

128 tackles 17.5 sacks 2 Int 3 FF

Dockett's last three seasons:

158 tackles 20 sacks 1 Int 3 FF

Was going to say basically the same thing. Dockett has been pretty dominant over the last couple of years. His biggest flaw is probably consistency, he is almost the Julius Peppers of DTs, in that he can absolutely dominate or he can disappear. One thing is for sure, if Fitzgerald hadn't been breaking records in their superbowl run, Dockett would have got a lot of press, he was dominant for a sustained period.

Also, Dockett doesn't have close to as much talent along the line with him as KWill, who was pretty down last year by his standards.

In this draft, if you tell me I can have Dockett for the first pick, I probably take him. Looking at this draft it doesn't look overly strong to me or more to the point, the prospects all seem to be high risk/reward or low risk/reward guys, there just aren't those prospects that you know are going to be good but might be great, I think McCoy, Berry, Spikes and McClain are the only guys I really feel that way about.

fenikz
02-10-2010, 11:47 PM
I call that the "Gabe Watson" effect. Pull a couple of spin moves and walla!

Gabe Watson went in the 4th round

brasho
02-11-2010, 12:08 AM
How would gaining weight affect his knees?

How could gaining weight not affect anybody's knees? The first thing a doc says to a patient that is heavy and has knee pain? "You need to lose some weight."

Whether the strain is greater on the patella or the meniscus, I'm not sure, but carrying 300 lbs is not good for ANYBODY's knees. Their connective tissue is no different than the connective tissue for a 175 lbers knees but 300+ lbs is a great amount of weight on anybody's knees, whether the person is 5'2 and works in mall security or is 7'5 and looks thin, weight is weight and for a person weighing 300+ lbs to walk up stairs that is a tremendous strain (think about how bad most people's knees feel after squatting 315+ at the gym then figure that for a 300 lb guy to go up stairs is the equal to doing a 600 lb squat (hack squat-anyways) for each step). For each lb greater than 300, that is just more and more burdeon on those knees.

brasho
02-11-2010, 12:25 AM
Someone was arguing that Suh was relatively undersized at rough 295#(est.) and lacked the bulk to dominate in the NFL. My point was I don't see a problem with Suh gaining weight and still being the same player he was as a top pro prospect.

When Reggie White left the USFL and signed with the Eagles, in his first TC he weighed 267 pounds! Gaining 'good weight' all depends on a player's genetics and work ethic, IMO.

As for Suh potentially quadrupling the Lions win total from 2009, consider they were competitive in many games last year and were also starting a rookie QB.
Their poor defense kept them out of the win column more often than not.

In 2010 with a possible difference-maker at DT they should be able to rush the passer and create more one on one opportunities for the rest of their Dline.
Detroit still has the most physically gifted WR in the game, and he and Stafford should only get better together in '10.
Maybe threatening for a wildcard is a bit optimistic(!), but 6-8 wins doesn't seem that far fetched to me.

What I was saying was that at 290 lbs (closer to Suh's true weight, he admitted playing the Texas game at 291) he is essentially playing against other guys in his weight class (the Texas OG was "listed" at 300 and was likely a few lbs less). Then when he gets into the NFL he'll be playing against guys 30-40 lbs heavier... I know he can gain weight, but who's to say it will help, besides the fact that he was a 5th year senior, much older than many of the kids he played against.

Let's put it this way and into a boxing metaphor. Think of Suh in college as Roy Jones as a middleweight. Suh in college absolutely dominated the guys that were his own weight (not against the biggies of Texas Tech and Arizona though) just like Roy Jones had devastating one-punch KO power as a middleweight. Then Jones went up in weight a couple of times, he gained 15 lbs to campaign as a lightheavyweight and he was still a good fighter, but he never took his punch with him, despite the fact that he weighed as much as the other guys he was fighting, he didn't have the same strength and explosion. When Jones became a heavyweight, he couldn't punch at all despite weighing 33 lbs more than he weighed at middleweight. And here's the biggie, Roy gained ALL muscle and had the abs and steroid receipts to prove it. Now I'm not saying that Suh can't gain weight and throw around NFL guys some day... but that day is not now, he's out of his weight class. He'll be 24 years old during his rookie year so he is nearly almost maxed out as far as his lean body mass and bulk strength is concerned so don't expect him to get a lot stronger.

Like I said, I really like Suh... but he isn't infallible, he has his weaknesses and blemishes just like everybody else. His happens to be that he isn't a big guy that depends on his power to a great extent. That is the reason there are weight classes in MMA, boxing, powerlifting, and wrestling... because the bigger guys have the size and strength advantage. Suh will be in for a rude awakening if he expects to dominate with power when the guys that line up across from him in the NFL aren't the lightweights that he faced regularly in the BIg12.

bearsfan_51
02-11-2010, 12:26 AM
How would gaining weight affect his knees?

Do you know what knees do?

fenikz
02-11-2010, 02:01 AM
Dockett is a completely different type of DT then the Williams sisters, he is the best UT in the league even though he is playing 3-4 DE

brasho
02-11-2010, 09:06 AM
Dockett is a completely different type of DT then the Williams sisters, he is the best UT in the league even though he is playing 3-4 DE

Probably true... Jay Ratliff of Dallas is out of position, too, but he also definitely doesn't let that stop him being downright dominant.

Addict
02-11-2010, 09:14 AM
How would gaining weight affect his knees?

See: Boston, David. Might not be the same position, but if you want to see the result of putting too much weight on your knees, he's the guy.

I'm sorry for this very late answer but I've had this guy in my head since I read this post and couldn't think of his name. So there it is.