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View Full Version : Todd McShay has Gerald McCoy going #1 in his new mock.


bigbuc
02-10-2010, 05:14 PM
1-Rams- McCoy
2-Lions- Suh
3-Bucs- Jpp ( I would put a gun to my head )
4-Skins- Anthony Davis
5-Chiefs- Okung
6-Seahawks-Bulaga
7-Browns- Berry
8-Raiders- Trent Williams
9-Bills- Bradford
10-Jags- Morgan


Thats his top ten.

vidae
02-10-2010, 05:15 PM
Okung to KC. Bad bad pick. The only draft expert I've seen give the Chiefs anyone other than Okung or Davis was Charles Davis on NFLN who said McClain should be the pick. I knew I liked him.

RealityCheck
02-10-2010, 05:16 PM
3-Bucs- Jpp ( I would put a gun to my head )
http://www.vkhaun.com/lol%20wut/IMAGES/srsly%20guys.jpg

gpngc
02-10-2010, 05:19 PM
http://cdn2.sbnation.com/imported_assets/169846/09000d5d8103c1d0_gallery_600.jpg

Seriously.

no bare feet
02-10-2010, 05:27 PM
McShay is a dorkus. But I don't see it as slam dunk to grab Suh over McCoy. It's more like a lay up right now.

Babylon
02-10-2010, 05:55 PM
http://www.vkhaun.com/lol%20wut/IMAGES/srsly%20guys.jpg

Trent Williams is a close second as far as absurdity goes.

vidae
02-10-2010, 06:01 PM
http://cdn2.sbnation.com/imported_assets/169846/09000d5d8103c1d0_gallery_600.jpg

Seriously.

I lol'd. Good one. We drafted Tyson Jackson 3rd. Nice!

JFLO
02-10-2010, 06:06 PM
It was only a matter of time before McCoy would be going in front of Suh. I don't think that there is a big deal about it. Suh's the #1 guy, but he isn't that far in front of McCoy, in fact, McCoy could make a case to be 1B, instead of 2.

Personally, I think McCoy has the capability to be the #1 guy by April and I think he'll be a better player when it's all said and done.

On the whole mock overall, I thought it was good, but only because it was different.

To have four offensive tackles in the Top 10 while having players like JPP #3 overall, these type of things are the factors that make you think about the possibilities of draft day.

AntoinCD
02-10-2010, 06:22 PM
I really dislike McShay but I gotta be honest it's not too bad. I have no problem with McCoy over Suh or four OTs going in the top 10. Only things i'm not sure on is Trent Williams to Oakland, may be a reach but that never stopped Al but Williams isn't the usual type of player Davis loves. And in a QB desperate league I don't see all teams in the top 8 passing on either Clausen or Bradford

yourfavestoner
02-10-2010, 06:58 PM
****...I thought you meant Colt McCoy at first hahahaha

Malaka
02-10-2010, 07:00 PM
JPP at three? That right there blew his credibility out of the water, the guy had like 7 sacks and everyone was burning Michael Johnson for having (I think) 10 and a bunch of blocked FGs.

Shane P. Hallam
02-10-2010, 07:02 PM
JPP at three? That right there blew his credibility out of the water, the guy had like 7 sacks and everyone was burning Michael Johnson for having (I think) 10 and a bunch of blocked FGs.

Multiple scouts are saying JPP isn't falling out of the Top Ten. Get ready.

TACKLE
02-10-2010, 07:13 PM
My thoughts on McCoy over Suh from another thread.

Don't be that surprised. The Rams have two young NT's in Clifton Ryan and Dorrell Scott. Spags loves explosive, athletic D-Lineman. I think McCoy is a better prospect as a pure 3-tech because of his explosiveness. Not saying it will happen but don't be shocked if it does. Although in the end they both have the ability to be very disruptive and be a major factor against the run and the pass, they go about it in a very different way. A lot of it depends on which players' skill set is the best fits the type of DT a team wants for their defensive system.

I don't care for McShay at all but I don't think he's as off as some people think he is. As JBond mentioned JPP stock is sky rocketing and at this point, it isn't looking like he'll get past Oakland. I'm still not sold on Seattle going LT in the first. I grew up on Alex Gibbs videos and I would be very surprised if Seattle went LT with the #6 pick. It depends on how much influence Gibbs has because he doesn't believe in taking LT high in the draft because it is necessary for his scheme. He prefers shorter, gritty, athletic lineman and doesn't need a 6'7 guy with top end physical tools. Not saying it won't happen but I would not expect it.

Addict
02-10-2010, 07:16 PM
****...I thought you meant Colt McCoy at first hahahaha

me too. Honest I thought that was the big contreversy. I don't really see the problem with McCoy the DT first. Everyone keeps saying it's 1 and 1a, so why can't you reverse them?

Jeesh it was the same thing when Mayock ranked McCoy and Suh in that order. Even though he said they are 1 and 1a. This isn't a new concept that has just started, it's pretty much on par with what the pundits have been saying: McCoy is just as good a prospect as Suh is.

D-Unit
02-10-2010, 07:17 PM
I thought it was Colt McCoy too. I was laughing out loud.

FUNBUNCHER
02-10-2010, 07:17 PM
JPP at three? That right there blew his credibility out of the water, the guy had like 7 sacks and everyone was burning Michael Johnson for having (I think) 10 and a bunch of blocked FGs.

Yeah, I have no big problems with the top 2 picks, but JPP at THREE is stoopid.
A top five pick can't based on pure potential. A DE taken in the top 4 picks should have clearly demonstrated he was one of the most dominant Dlineman in college football last season, not just one of the most athletic.

Also, Shanahan has practically stated he wants a QB at #4, either Bradford or Clausen, if they check out healthy.

IMO Berry AND Mays find a way to wedge themselves into the top 10.

The OTs will be overdrafted, but I can't see 4 gone in the top 8 picks.

JFLO
02-10-2010, 07:17 PM
To be honest, I'm starting to lean towards putting McCoy in front of Suh. I like Suh's game and everything, dont' get me wrong, but I think McCoy is going to flourish better at the next level.

EvilNixon
02-10-2010, 07:25 PM
Okung to KC. Bad bad pick. The only draft expert I've seen give the Chiefs anyone other than Okung or Davis was Charles Davis on NFLN who said McClain should be the pick. I knew I liked him.

Why McClain? He's an ILB in the Chiefs' 3-4 lol. Those are easily found. Brandon Spikes will be there at the top of the second. I wouldn't trust Albert to be my LT. Why not get a great fit and great value too?

gsoturf
02-10-2010, 07:27 PM
I really hope we don't take McCoy.. I think Suh is the most dominating player in this draft and even though the Rams have had their fair share of DT draft busts they should take him.

AntoinCD
02-10-2010, 07:31 PM
Why McClain? He's an ILB in the Chiefs' 3-4 lol. Those are easily found. Brandon Spikes will be there at the top of the second. I wouldn't trust Albert to be my LT. Why not get a great fit and great value too?

I gotta second this. ILB may be biggest need but at 5 the value is horrible. McClain is not the prospect Aaron Curry was and he'd have played inside in the 34. Patrick Willis who was the best ILB prospect in the last 5 or more years was only drafted at number 11.

If KC stay at 5 I really don't see any other pick than OT or OLB but if they trade down to 10/11 area then McClain definitely comes into play

AntoinCD
02-10-2010, 07:35 PM
I really hope we don't take McCoy.. I think Suh is the most dominating player in this draft and even though the Rams have had their fair share of DT draft busts they should take him.

Really the Rams should take Clausen or Bradford but they probably won't. Even if Suh becomes a perennial all pro he helps you win what...3/4 more games a season???

The Rams have passed on a QB too many times now but I still think they take Suh

Babylon
02-10-2010, 07:37 PM
Really the Rams should take Clausen or Bradford but they probably won't. Even if Suh becomes a perennial all pro he helps you win what...3/4 more games a season???

The Rams have passed on a QB too many times now but I still think they take Suh

They'd probably gladly take 3 or 4 more wins.

gsoturf
02-10-2010, 07:41 PM
Honestly I think they'll going to be able to get a QB in the 2nd round or sign Micheal Vick of a year.

619
02-10-2010, 07:41 PM
Multiple scouts are saying JPP isn't falling out of the Top Ten. Get ready.

He certainly ain't falling past the Raiders. Man, this is terrible, I mean ... Trent Williams?? I hope he's figured out by now that Mario Henderson just won't cut it at LT, and he's maybe an above average RT. Either way, if we're going OT (which I don't think we are), it has to be a LT, and it has nothing to do with its positional or monetary value. Just look at the needs.

McShay deserves every bit of criticism that comes his way. I actually used to like him before, just a bit ...

bigbuc
02-10-2010, 07:42 PM
If I had my pick I'm taking the guy that took over games. I'm taking the guy that in the biggest game of his teams season was the best player hands down on the field for both teams. I'm taking Suh.

Also lets not forget that his own Head Coach has said that he does not let him just rush the passer. He got all his sacks and did all that disruption on a read and react D line.

FUNBUNCHER
02-10-2010, 08:05 PM
If I had my pick I'm taking the guy that took over games. I'm taking the guy that in the biggest game of his teams season was the best player hands down on the field for both teams. I'm taking Suh.

Also lets not forget that his own Head Coach has said that he does not let him just rush the passer. He got all his sacks and did all that disruption on a read and react D line.

Agreed. I think Suh is even more athletic than people are giving him credit for.
IMO Suh can pretty much play McCoy's speed rush game, but I doubt McCoy has the instincts or play recognition to play Suh's game at Nebraska.

I know the 40 isn't the end all, be all, but I'll anxious to see which one has the better time at that distance and also in the shuttle.

Grizzlegom
02-10-2010, 08:17 PM
Multiple scouts are saying JPP isn't falling out of the Top Ten. Get ready.

I can understand why people are saying this because he is definitely this years physical freak that has all the potential in the world but i just think that the recent failures of Gholston and Maybin will turn some teams off. Just like Maybin last year, i wouldnt be surprised if he went top five but i also wouldnt be surprised to see him in the 20s.

vidae
02-10-2010, 08:20 PM
Why McClain? He's an ILB in the Chiefs' 3-4 lol. Those are easily found. Brandon Spikes will be there at the top of the second. I wouldn't trust Albert to be my LT. Why not get a great fit and great value too?

Branden Albert played a lot better down the stretch than people give him credit for. The area that needs vast improvement is the interior offensive line, not the tackles.

If you saw a Chiefs game last year you'd know why the first round pick has to be a defensive playmaker. We had abysmal sack totals and couldn't stop anyone. We gave up over 250 yards to Jerome Harrison and that was on the linebacking group, not the defensive line. For the most part the DLine did it's job but the backers aren't good enough to be starting in the NFL, it's that simple. That leaves the only smart choices for us to be Eric Berry or Rolando McClain. Like someone posted earlier it's obvious that Pioli has no problems "reaching" on a prospect that will fit his defense, and our biggest need, BY FAR, is Inside LB.

I'd love to trade down rather than stay at 5 and pick him but if it's between Okung/Davis or McClain I'm taking McClain 10 times out of 10 and not looking back.

And I also completely disagree that there isn't a big gap in the talent department between Rolando McClain and Brandon Spikes. I think the gap is huge.

wogitalia
02-10-2010, 11:23 PM
I'd love to trade down rather than stay at 5 and pick him but if it's between Okung/Davis or McClain I'm taking McClain 10 times out of 10 and not looking back.

And I also completely disagree that there isn't a big gap in the talent department between Rolando McClain and Brandon Spikes. I think the gap is huge.

I disagree on the Spikes/McClain thing, I think they are very even prospects but that is not the issue.

The Chiefs, for the 2nd year in a row, are just in an awful position in the draft. The value just isn't there for them with what they need. Last year they had to reach massively to go for a fit and it looks like they might have to again, though Berry still makes a lot of sense to me for them.

I expect they will try to trade down and I expect they will fail, the truth is that top 5 picks are worth less than the picks in the 7-15 range unless there are truly elite prospects available in the top 5 and there just aren't this year. Outside of Berry and the two DTs there isn't a prospect that is even close to elite for me and I honestly feel you have as good a shot at getting a pro bowler at 15 as you do at 4 on a draft board, every player between probably even 4 and 25 has flaws and/or upside issues. Honestly as far as upside and actual ability go, McClain may be the 4th best player in this draft.

brasho
02-11-2010, 09:10 AM
I disagree on the Spikes/McClain thing, I think they are very even prospects but that is not the issue.

The Chiefs, for the 2nd year in a row, are just in an awful position in the draft. The value just isn't there for them with what they need. Last year they had to reach massively to go for a fit and it looks like they might have to again, though Berry still makes a lot of sense to me for them.

I expect they will try to trade down and I expect they will fail, the truth is that top 5 picks are worth less than the picks in the 7-15 range unless there are truly elite prospects available in the top 5 and there just aren't this year. Outside of Berry and the two DTs there isn't a prospect that is even close to elite for me and I honestly feel you have as good a shot at getting a pro bowler at 15 as you do at 4 on a draft board, every player between probably even 4 and 25 has flaws and/or upside issues. Honestly as far as upside and actual ability go, McClain may be the 4th best player in this draft.


Considering Spikes won't go until the 1st round is over and McClain will be a definite top 15, we'll see the disparity soon enough. Considering Spikes will likely only play inside in the 3-4 and come off the field in passing situations while McClain will be expected to stay on the field in passing situatinos (I'm not as sold on him in coverage as everybody else) and can play pretty much anywhere, except maybe Will in a T-2, in any defense. There is a huge difference between the players.

PACKmanN
02-11-2010, 09:17 AM
Didn't the Rams already spend a top 10 pick on a UT? I don't see it happening again. They could go Nuh and have an all out Neb DT tandem, or go another direction(trade down.)

Addict
02-11-2010, 09:21 AM
I can understand why people are saying this because he is definitely this years physical freak that has all the potential in the world but i just think that the recent failures of Gholston and Maybin will turn some teams off. Just like Maybin last year, i wouldnt be surprised if he went top five but i also wouldnt be surprised to see him in the 20s.

Yeah you're probably right it really doesn't make any sense for this kind of player to go early on. So I guess that's the end of that discu--
http://www.nelsonguirado.com/media/blogs/funlinks/Oakland-Raiders-Logo.gif
oh right, wait. I forgot about those guys. Eh well.

brasho
02-11-2010, 09:22 AM
Didn't the Rams already spend a top 10 pick on a UT? I don't see it happening again. They could go Nuh and have an all out Neb DT tandem, or go another direction(trade down.)

They've got Carriker to supposedly play NT, even though he is more of an UT, but even more of a LDE in their 4-3, but would probably fit best as a LDE in a 3-4. Then they have Clifton Ryan and Dorell Scott inside as well who are solid. They also invested a top 3 in DE Chris Long (whom I liked as an UT prospect coming out) who is miscast as a RDE when he should probably be a LDE... then there's the mysterious case of Leonard Little... who is still around and plays LDE, even though his game has always resembled that of a RDE much more. I assume if they draft Suh they will bring him in to play MLB or SS based on where everybody else plays. jk.

Carriker has not been able to stay healthy, nor has he played particularly well, probably because he's always hurt, so taking Suh to pair with Ryan and Scott on the inside would give the Rams at least one strength (DL) on a team where only the RB position is a strength.

Grizzlegom
02-11-2010, 09:44 AM
Yeah you're probably right it really doesn't make any sense for this kind of player to go early on. So I guess that's the end of that discu--
http://www.nelsonguirado.com/media/blogs/funlinks/Oakland-Raiders-Logo.gif
oh right, wait. I forgot about those guys. Eh well.

i didnt say it didnt make any sense, i was actually one of the only people saying maybin would go in the top half of the first round last year, im just saying i think most normal teams will be scared off, obviously the raiders don't qualify as normal and there are a few other poorly run teams that are in that category as well but JPP is going to be one of those guys that is going to be a top ten pick on some teams boards and a 2nd/3rd rounder on others.

Addict
02-11-2010, 09:50 AM
i didnt say it didnt make any sense, i was actually one of the only people saying maybin would go in the top half of the first round last year, im just saying i think most normal teams will be scared off, obviously the raiders don't qualify as normal and there are a few other poorly run teams that are in that category as well but JPP is going to be one of those guys that is going to be a top ten pick on some teams boards and a 2nd/3rd rounder on others.

I wasn't arguiing. I was actually agreeing with you. With Maybin and Gholston fresh in the memory most teams should think twice about drafting yet another player in the same mold. And obviously the Raiders are outside of the borders. It's like the lions during the Millen Era: no matter how many holes there were we'd end up with some wide receiver at the end of the day.

Grizzlegom
02-11-2010, 10:06 AM
I wasn't arguiing. I was actually agreeing with you. With Maybin and Gholston fresh in the memory most teams should think twice about drafting yet another player in the same mold. And obviously the Raiders are outside of the borders. It's like the lions during the Millen Era: no matter how many holes there were we'd end up with some wide receiver at the end of the day.

haha yea they also remind me of the dark days of Dave Wanndstedt when we either traded all our picks or used them on a CB or MLB despite having guys like Madison and Surtain at CB already and Zach Thomas in the middle.

RealityCheck
02-11-2010, 10:07 AM
Trent Williams at #8 is a little understandable...

But JPP at #3? No way. Derrick Morgan I could see, but no JPP. He'd go #12 to the Dolphins.

yourfavestoner
02-11-2010, 10:44 AM
Considering Spikes won't go until the 1st round is over and McClain will be a definite top 15, we'll see the disparity soon enough. Considering Spikes will likely only play inside in the 3-4 and come off the field in passing situations while McClain will be expected to stay on the field in passing situatinos (I'm not as sold on him in coverage as everybody else) and can play pretty much anywhere, except maybe Will in a T-2, in any defense. There is a huge difference between the players.

That disparity reflects draft stock. In recent years, linebackers who come back for their senior year see their draft stocks fall as scouts get a boner for the flavor of the week junior linebacker. Then those linebackers who fell go out and make everybody wonder how why they didn't get drafted in the first round.

He won't come off the field in passing situations, either. He'll be used as a blitzer very similar to how Pittsburgh uses Timmons. Dude's got a ton of untapped potential as a pass rusher, and you could see it just beginning to surface in the Bama game last year, where he threw Andre Smith around like a rag doll. Also, he's done pretty ******* well for himself in pass coverage, returning more interceptions back for touchdowns than any other linebacker the past three years. He's excellent at baiting quarterbacks and capitalizing on hurried throws. Would you want him covering an athletic tight end 30 yards downfield? No, but you wouldn't want McClain doing that either.

They're essentially the same player and, IMO, Spikes JR year>McClain's JR year. He also does just as much in terms of being a leader emotionally as McClain.

Not saying McClain is a bad player, or that he's worse than Spikes. I love both of them and think they're both great players. I just don't understand the tearing down of Spikes to build McClain up when they're essentially the same guy.

EvilNixon
02-11-2010, 04:39 PM
Considering Spikes won't go until the 1st round is over and McClain will be a definite top 15, we'll see the disparity soon enough. Considering Spikes will likely only play inside in the 3-4 and come off the field in passing situations while McClain will be expected to stay on the field in passing situatinos (I'm not as sold on him in coverage as everybody else) and can play pretty much anywhere, except maybe Will in a T-2, in any defense. There is a huge difference between the players.

I think he was referring to their impact in a 34, in that both will play inside, and there the talent difference is negligible.

JRTPlaya21
02-11-2010, 06:22 PM
So we pass on Berry, Okung & Clausen? Shoot me now.

nepg
02-11-2010, 06:35 PM
Why McClain? He's an ILB in the Chiefs' 3-4 lol. Those are easily found. Brandon Spikes will be there at the top of the second. I wouldn't trust Albert to be my LT. Why not get a great fit and great value too?

1. What ILB is "easily found"?

2. Spikes isn't even on the same plane of existance as McClain.

McClain, being by far the best LB in the draft, is a much better value than Okung, who might be the 4th or 5th best OT in this draft, at #5.

3. The Chiefs need interior OL help, the OTs are mostly fine. Could use an upgrade, but they're way better off than some of the teams around the league...better than some of the Super Bowl teams of the last decade or so ( most of the Super Bowl teams have had garbage OTs)...

You can find a few amazingly good interior OLs in the second round. Pouncey, please.

EvilNixon
02-11-2010, 06:37 PM
1. What ILB is "easily found"?

2. Spikes isn't even on the same plane of existance as McClain.

McClain, being by far the best LB in the draft, is a much better value than Okung, who might be the 4th or 5th best OT in this draft, at #5.

3. The Chiefs need interior OL help, the OTs are mostly fine. Could use an upgrade, but they're way better off than some of the teams around the league...better than some of the Super Bowl teams of the last decade or so ( most of the Super Bowl teams have had garbage OTs)...

You can find a few amazingly good interior OLs in the second round. Pouncey, please.

3-4 ILB are easily found, because they are used primarily as blitzers/run stoppers.

2. Opinion

yourfavestoner
02-11-2010, 06:41 PM
3-4 ILB are easily found, because they are used primarily as blitzers/run stoppers.

2. Opinion

Exactly. I hear people screaming until they're blue in the face that McClain is far and away a better player, but no reason why.

Flavor of the week.

CC.SD
02-11-2010, 09:02 PM
3. The Chiefs need interior OL help, the OTs are mostly fine. Could use an upgrade, but they're way better off than some of the teams around the league...better than some of the Super Bowl teams of the last decade or so ( most of the Super Bowl teams have had garbage OTs)...

You can find a few amazingly good interior OLs in the second round. Pouncey, please.

Exactly. I hear people screaming until they're blue in the face that McClain is far and away a better player, but no reason why.

Flavor of the week.


Taking Okung, who I remain meh on, does improve the Chiefs interior OL because it kicks Albert inside.

McClain is a better prospect than Spikes it's no question he is more fluid, plays faster, hits harder. But Spikes isn't a tard wandering around on the field looking for a hot dog. He is a beast. The difference isn't night and day. McClain will get dropped in somewhere and live up to expectations for a decade, while Spikes will be a huge steal for somebody.

wogitalia
02-11-2010, 11:35 PM
That disparity reflects draft stock. In recent years, linebackers who come back for their senior year see their draft stocks fall as scouts get a boner for the flavor of the week junior linebacker. Then those linebackers who fell go out and make everybody wonder how why they didn't get drafted in the first round.

He won't come off the field in passing situations, either. He'll be used as a blitzer very similar to how Pittsburgh uses Timmons. Dude's got a ton of untapped potential as a pass rusher, and you could see it just beginning to surface in the Bama game last year, where he threw Andre Smith around like a rag doll. Also, he's done pretty ******* well for himself in pass coverage, returning more interceptions back for touchdowns than any other linebacker the past three years. He's excellent at baiting quarterbacks and capitalizing on hurried throws. Would you want him covering an athletic tight end 30 yards downfield? No, but you wouldn't want McClain doing that either.

They're essentially the same player and, IMO, Spikes JR year>McClain's JR year. He also does just as much in terms of being a leader emotionally as McClain.

Not saying McClain is a bad player, or that he's worse than Spikes. I love both of them and think they're both great players. I just don't understand the tearing down of Spikes to build McClain up when they're essentially the same guy.

Was going to write pretty much the exact same reply.

I grade Spikes and McClain as a 1a and 1b, they are very similar players and both are talented as hell and are going to make their teams very happy but I'll be honest in saying that Spikes is getting underrated. I think both are in probably the top 10 best players when you take away positional value and both are going to make a big impact.

Basically ILB is the QB of defense. It has gotten to the point with over analysis where you are better off draft stock wise coming out as a junior than a senior. I posted somewhere else on this site that there have been a lot of senior ILB overlooked in the first due to "measurables" despite production. Spikes will be the latest when he goes in the 2nd.

For what it's worth, I think McClain has been fairly valued in this draft and is right about where both he and Spikes should be.

Shane P. Hallam
02-11-2010, 11:41 PM
Interesting that ex-scout Daniel Jeremiah has stated McClain is nowhere near the level of Brian Cushing, Clay Matthews, Aaron Curry, or Demeco Ryans as prospects.

wogitalia
02-12-2010, 12:25 AM
Interesting that ex-scout Daniel Jeremiah has stated McClain is nowhere near the level of Brian Cushing, Clay Matthews, Aaron Curry, or Demeco Ryans as prospects.

I think he is a different player, also, ILB are generally rated lower nowadays with the whole 3-4 thing. I would say that McClain has better intangibles than any of those guys, equal production and probably slightly lesser physical skills but again, Ryans aside, those guys are all OLB prospects and thus should be better athletes than McClain.

I'm a big McClain fan, ditto Spikes. I think they are two of the best ILB prospects I have seen, though I think the combine will hurt both and they are probably going to end up on teams better than they should with their ability and thus will shine even further.

One thing I will say, if either of them is available for Detroit in the 2nd and they don't take them, something went wrong. Both guys are going to be the centerpiece of a good defense for the next 10 years, the kind you can build the D around, not necessarily because they themselves are stars but because they will lead the defense and have the mental skills to lead the defense, which are big things.

Addict
02-12-2010, 02:02 AM
Interesting that ex-scout Daniel Jeremiah has stated McClain is nowhere near the level of Brian Cushing, Clay Matthews, Aaron Curry, or Demeco Ryans as prospects.

that's not good. Especially Cushing and Matthews, who weren't flawless prospects to begin with.

yourfavestoner
02-12-2010, 10:19 AM
Taking Okung, who I remain meh on, does improve the Chiefs interior OL because it kicks Albert inside.

McClain is a better prospect than Spikes it's no question he is more fluid, plays faster, hits harder. But Spikes isn't a tard wandering around on the field looking for a hot dog. He is a beast. The difference isn't night and day. McClain will get dropped in somewhere and live up to expectations for a decade, while Spikes will be a huge steal for somebody.

Great post. This is what I wasn't looking for.

How do you guys think Spikes compares to ReyRey?

I'd give the edge in athleticism to Spikes due to all the plays he's made in coverage and his pass-rushing ability. Rey was definitely more physical in taking on blocks and playing the inside run, though.

Loved both of them as prospects, and I have a feeling Spikes will get taken right around that range.

yourfavestoner
02-12-2010, 10:22 AM
Interesting that ex-scout Daniel Jeremiah has stated McClain is nowhere near the level of Brian Cushing, Clay Matthews, Aaron Curry, or Demeco Ryans as prospects.

That's interesting.

I think McClain's floor is significantly higher than all of those guys sans Ryans. Although, McClain is essentially a bigger, more physical Ryans. Cushing, Mattews, and Curry all have much higher upside, though.

ThePudge
02-12-2010, 10:25 AM
Great post. This is what I wasn't looking for.

How do you guys think Spikes compares to ReyRey?

I'd give the edge in athleticism to Spikes due to all the plays he's made in coverage and his pass-rushing ability. Rey was definitely more physical in taking on blocks and playing the inside run, though.

Loved both of them as prospects, and I have a feeling Spikes will get taken right around that range.

I think athleticism would go to Rey just because of how each play in space and change directions. Spikes plays a bit taller, with tighter hips than Rey. It's not black and white, but I'd give the edge to Maualuga. Love his pass-rushing skills lined up on the outside and his experience & instincts in zone coverage, but neither are fluid athletes in man coverage. I'm one that could see Spikes falling to the 3rd more likely than being taken in the 1st. He did not play a good year of football for the standards we hold him to.

LickaMahfeetz
02-13-2010, 05:47 AM
I think he is a different player, also, ILB are generally rated lower nowadays with the whole 3-4 thing. I would say that McClain has better intangibles than any of those guys, equal production and probably slightly lesser physical skills but again, Ryans aside, those guys are all OLB prospects and thus should be better athletes than McClain.

I'm a big McClain fan, ditto Spikes. I think they are two of the best ILB prospects I have seen, though I think the combine will hurt both and they are probably going to end up on teams better than they should with their ability and thus will shine even further.

One thing I will say, if either of them is available for Detroit in the 2nd and they don't take them, something went wrong. Both guys are going to be the centerpiece of a good defense for the next 10 years, the kind you can build the D around, not necessarily because they themselves are stars but because they will lead the defense and have the mental skills to lead the defense, which are big things.
USC guy here. Cushing was at his best inside when replacing Maualuga in the lineup. He was also rated as a pretty good 34 ILB in his own right. I think that might be his best fit even. The difference was night and day when he played inside at USC. Matthews was also a better looking SLB prospect to me than Cushing ever was. He got a lot of playtime due to Cushing injuries, which is what got Matthews noticed to begin with before being moved to RDE his Senior year.

Saints-Tigers
02-13-2010, 10:05 AM
I know everyone loves McCoy and wants to make this a 1a/1b thing, but Suh clearly separated himself this year. McCoy is a top tier talent, and Suh played like a once per generation type talent.

It's really kind of disrespectful to Suh to insinuate that McCoy played at the same level.

I know production doesn't show you how well a guy projects, but damn man, what more could you ask for?

ifidel
02-13-2010, 11:10 AM
Alabama D-Line
98 Tkl, 23.5 TFL, 9.5 Sk, 20 QBH, 5 PBU, 0 Int, 1 FF, 3 Blk
Florida D-Line
112 Tkl, 33 TFL, 14 Sk, 48 QBH, 5 PBU, 0 Int, 1 FF, 0 Blk
Texas D-Line
116 Tkl, 25.5 TFL, 15.5 Sk, 10 QBH, 7 PBU, 0 Int, 2 FF, 0 Blk
Ndamukong Suh
82 Tkl, 23 TFL, 12 Sk, 24 QBH, 10 PBU, 1 Int, 1 FF, 3 Blk

'Nuff said. He is a one man wrecking machine.

FUNBUNCHER
02-13-2010, 11:33 AM
Alabama D-Line
98 Tkl, 23.5 TFL, 9.5 Sk, 20 QBH, 5 PBU, 0 Int, 1 FF, 3 Blk
Florida D-Line
112 Tkl, 33 TFL, 14 Sk, 48 QBH, 5 PBU, 0 Int, 1 FF, 0 Blk
Texas D-Line
116 Tkl, 25.5 TFL, 15.5 Sk, 10 QBH, 7 PBU, 0 Int, 2 FF, 0 Blk
Ndamukong Suh
82 Tkl, 23 TFL, 12 Sk, 24 QBH, 10 PBU, 1 Int, 1 FF, 3 Blk

'Nuff said. He is a one man wrecking machine.

Really an eye opening comparison, one that makes me get on the bandwagon that Suh and McCoy may be the top 2 DT prospects, but that's as far as the comparison goes.

Suh played out of his friggin' mind last season!!

ThePudge
02-13-2010, 12:07 PM
I know everyone loves McCoy and wants to make this a 1a/1b thing, but Suh clearly separated himself this year. McCoy is a top tier talent, and Suh played like a once per generation type talent.

It's really kind of disrespectful to Suh to insinuate that McCoy played at the same level.

I know production doesn't show you how well a guy projects, but damn man, what more could you ask for?

I'm fine with what you posted there, but now it's time to look past last season and into the future. Tell me three reasons to worry about Suh as a prospect and three areas of concern with Gerald McCoy? The stakes are too high to simply give it to the most dominant player in college football, you have to consider what could hold each back at the next level. Suh's got that thinner lower body, a history of knee injuries, and stands up out of his stance, plays high and relies on his upper body strength and hands a lot. McCoy, on the other hand, will over-pursue on some plays....

I had a great time the past two days putting scouting reports together and those two are as close as everyone's making them out to be. People forget that McCoy was 2nd Team All-American the past two seasons, was the national Freshman of the year, and was named the Big XII Defensive Player of the Year as a Sophomore. His statistics have never been outrageous, but his impact is always felt on the game.

It's a real tough call. I can't imagine that either will move from my 1 & 2 spots on my Big Board, and the floor for both is 3rd Overall (Tampa Bay).

FUNBUNCHER
02-13-2010, 12:41 PM
I think McCoy has more in common with former Sooner Tommie Harris than Suh. Overall Harris was faster/quicker than McCoy with the first step of a blitzing DB, still both Harris and McCoy were noted for not compiling great stats in college yet were considered dominant players who elevated the overall play of their team's D.
Tommie was a better pro than collegian, I think many see the same path for McCoy in the pros as well.

But if Suh plays anywhere near the level he did as a collegian, he won't be a pro bowler, he'll be a 1st team All-Pro.

Playing high and man-handling opponents because of his upper body strength aren't real negatives, from my point of view, and his game should only become more refined in the NFL.
BTW, to toss OTs and OGs around like small children, it takes more than just a strong grip and bench press; you've got to have the base and lower body strength to anchor with enough leverage to move a 300+ offensive lineman, especially if you're playing tall as a DT.

Leg size should not be confused with leg strength, and I doubt a guy like Suh spent all that time in Nebraska's strength and conditioning program without putting in hours of reps on the leg press and squat rack.
FWIW, his legs have never impressed me as being undersized.

About his knee problems, Suh had surgery on his knee in the spring of '07 and since then has been injury free; that's 3 full seasons.

I think there's been a slight downgrading by some pro scouts of Suh in an effort to elevate McCoy. The one thing that puts Suh into his own category is his play recognition and ball instincts, traits generally used to describe ILBs, not DTs.
It's Suh's play awareness that really separates him from someone like McCoy, IMO, and where Suh's game is matched by few if any DTs, past or present.

ThePudge
02-13-2010, 01:10 PM
I think McCoy has more in common with former Sooner Tommie Harris than Suh. Overall Harris was faster/quicker than McCoy with the first step of a blitzing DB, still both Harris and McCoy were noted for not compiling great stats in college yet were considered dominant players who elevated the overall play of their team's D.
Tommie was a better pro than collegian, I think many see the same path for McCoy in the pros as well.

But if Suh plays anywhere near the level he did as a collegian, he won't be a pro bowler, he'll be a 1st team All-Pro.

Playing high and man-handling opponents because of his upper body strength aren't real negatives, from my point of view, and his game should only become more refined in the NFL.
BTW, to toss OTs and OGs around like small children, it takes more than just a strong grip and bench press; you've got to have the base and lower body strength to anchor with enough leverage to move a 300+ offensive lineman, especially if you're playing tall as a DT.

Leg size should not be confused with leg strength, and I doubt a guy like Suh spent all that time in Nebraska's strength and conditioning program without putting in hours of reps on the leg press and squat rack.
FWIW, his legs have never impressed me as being undersized.

About his knee problems, Suh had surgery on his knee in the spring of '07 and since then has been injury free; that's 3 full seasons.

I think there's been a slight downgrading by some pro scouts of Suh in an effort to elevate McCoy. The one thing that puts Suh into his own category is his play recognition and ball instincts, traits generally used to describe ILBs, not DTs.
It's Suh's play awareness that really separates him from someone like McCoy, IMO, and where Suh's game is matched by few if any DTs, past or present.

I urge you to watch some more Gerald McCoy if you think Suh has to be downgraded to put the two on a similar level. They are different players and it's fair for anyone to make their decision based on schematic fit and a perceived ceiling. If McCoy dominates the way he did in college, he'll be right next to Suh on that All-Pro team. These are two once in a decade interior linemen.

McCoy is similar to Tommie Harris, though is more NFL ready as a prospect, is more versatile, more durable, and simply a bigger guy at an inch and ten pounds heavier at the same point in their careers. Harris was a unique college player and a terrific NFL prospect, but he wasn't as productive as McCoy, as highly decorated, and he didn't play the number of positions that Gerald did during his three years at Oklahoma.

I don't know where you get the idea that McCoy is not as quick or explosive as Tommie Harris. Though Harris had some of the best explosiveness off the snap of recent DT prospects, his fellow Sooner is right there with him. The two are very similar, though where Harris had question marks, McCoy has answers. The guy is ridiculously good, has made every start since he was activated for OU, and has helped his team & teammates in ways that statistics can't show. His ability to change direction in space and stay with the play resembles Suh's, but his game is more of an active, upfield one that forces QBs to make quick decisions and more often than not, McCoy'll set the pace for an opposing offense.

Suh is still #1 on my board, but the gap is much slimmer between the two that it is between McCoy and the next best player on the board. No one has to be downgraded to verify a Top 2 value for this guy.

FUNBUNCHER
02-13-2010, 01:24 PM
Tommie was a better pure straight line athlete than McCoy, that's all.

Harris came to OU running a sub 4.7 40, and I believe he ran in the 4.8 range predraft.
Not saying quickness isn't a strength for McCoy also, but IMO Harris was a tick or two faster.

ThePudge
02-13-2010, 01:27 PM
Tommie was a better pure straight line athlete than McCoy, that's all.

Harris came to OU running a sub 4.7 40, and I believe he ran in the 4.8 range predraft.
Not saying quickness isn't a strength for McCoy also, but IMO Harris was a tick or two faster.

Speed and explosiveness off the snap are two entirely different things, and the latter is where they are on a very even level. McCoy's ability to explode off the snap at 6'4 295+ is the best I've seen following the draft. Now (to keep his name alive) Suh's ability to control OL with his hands, take on double teams, and throw lineman are the best I've seen as well. They're both unbelievable prospects and I feel bad for St. Louis with their dire need for a QB and face at the position.

Saints-Tigers
02-15-2010, 10:49 AM
I'll say it now, Berry and Suh are much closer as prospects than McCoy is to either of them.

FUNBUNCHER
02-15-2010, 12:23 PM
Speed and explosiveness off the snap are two entirely different things, and the latter is where they are on a very even level. McCoy's ability to explode off the snap at 6'4 295+ is the best I've seen following the draft. Now (to keep his name alive) Suh's ability to control OL with his hands, take on double teams, and throw lineman are the best I've seen as well. They're both unbelievable prospects and I feel bad for St. Louis with their dire need for a QB and face at the position.


True, but there is a high correlation between explosiveness and speed for Dlineman when compared to their ability to run a sub 4.9 40, that is, if a DT can run a 4.8, generally he has the ability to explode off the snap.
Doesn't mean if a DT runs a 5.1, he's not 'explosive', but I still think Tommie Harris was better in this regard than McCoy.

Unlike Harris, before his knee injuries in Chicago, I don't know if McCoy will ever be capable in the NFL of getting off the snap before an OG can set to block him.