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View Full Version : Suh Vs. McCoy


frubulubu
02-11-2010, 11:58 PM
We have heard lots of people ranking these two as the top two players in this years draft. Recently, Mcshay put McCoy ahead of Suh in his board, which everyone has Suh as there top player. If your the Spags and the Rams, who do you make first overall? I personally think it's McCoy, who will be Spags choice over Suh. He is more like the D lineman he prefers in his D.

MiWolves
02-12-2010, 12:01 AM
When Suh was at Nebraska he wasn't asked to rush the passer. He got those sacks penetrating the lineman.. Imagine if he was asked to rush the passer.

Don Vito
02-12-2010, 12:10 AM
McCoy is a great prospect who showed he can really make a huge impact inside, but Suh was dominant this year. He was Nebraska football this year and carried his team, the knee injuries have raised some concern but if you are picking a DT it would really be hard to take anyone over Suh. Again, no knock on McCoy, he is a stud too. As of now Suh is the top guy.

Paranoidmoonduck
02-12-2010, 12:12 AM
When Suh was at Nebraska he wasn't asked to rush the passer. He got those sacks penetrating the lineman.. Imagine if he was asked to rush the passer.

I'm not really sure what you're trying to say. Suh was mostly turned loose in that defense. If you're pretending that he was asked to fill gaps and stay in one lane, that is patently false. I give Bo Pelini full credit for realizing that his defense would be far better once he just asked Suh to flow to the ball. I think Suh's role in that Nebraska offense was actually largely that of a Tampa 2 DT, where no matter whether he lined up right over a guard or wedged in between the guard and center, he wasn't really asked to do more than locate the ball and make plays.

If you're insinuating that somehow Suh wasn't asked to rush the passer and if he had his game would be more like McCoy's, I don't agree. I think they have distinctly different ways of getting past college lineman (college being the operative word there).

frubulubu
02-12-2010, 12:14 AM
When Suh was at Nebraska he wasn't asked to rush the passer. He got those sacks penetrating the lineman.. Imagine if he was asked to rush the passer.

Suh, is an incredible talent, and a pleasure to watch. I love seeing him play, on Saturdays, and will enjoy him on Sundays as well. I just believe that Spags, will take McCoy, based on the style of D lineman he had in Philly and in NY.

FUNBUNCHER
02-12-2010, 12:31 AM
Paranoidmoonduck, former Washington Redskins D coordinator Greg Blache and current Nebraska HC Bo Pelini have their DTs play a read and react scheme, they simply aren't allowed to barrel upfield while attempting to play the run.
Because of the limitations this scheme puts on a penetrating DT, when Albert Haynesworth signed with the Skins, he specifically told Blache that 'read and react' wasn't his style of play and unless the scheme adapted to him, he wouldn't be effective.
It's clear from watching Suh's game tapes from last season, he was required to diagnose the play first while committing to being in a position to stop the run, then pursue to the football. Very rarely did Suh go full bore into the backfield, not because he couldn't, but because the scheme he played in didn't allow him to.

If Suh is drafted by a team that says we don't really care how scheme disciplined you are, just defeat the man in front of you and track the shortest distance to the QB, I think Suh's ability to be purely disruptive increases exponentially.

Think how dominant Suh was last season by making plays AFTER beating a double team or standing up a guard or tackle, then pursuing to the football.

To say that Suh can't penetrate I think takes for granted how he was coached to play the DT position by Nebraska by Pelini.

Like I've said before, if either of these guys goes in top 3 in whatever order, I won't complain because I still expect both of them to develop into top 10 players at their position, but I believe it's incorrect to assume that Suh can't penetrate off the snap like an UT.

Paranoidmoonduck
02-12-2010, 01:20 AM
Speaking from what I saw of Suh last year, I'd say that he definitely wasn't asked to sit at the LOS very often. While he was asked to chase the ball, if he was strictly called on to read and react, he'd normally drive into the backfield a little both to get his blocker off balance and have more room to move laterally. Moreover, he was definitely given the option of making pre-snap reads and then charging out the play as he saw fit. That was a huge factor in a lot of his stops behind the line in the running game.

My only point is that Suh wasn't really asked to play the 1-gap in a traditional way for the Huskers, as opposed to what LSU asked Glenn Dorsey to do (for example).

Dennis Moore
02-12-2010, 02:44 AM
I'm not really sure what you're trying to say. Suh was mostly turned loose in that defense. If you're pretending that he was asked to fill gaps and stay in one lane, that is patently false. I give Bo Pelini full credit for realizing that his defense would be far better once he just asked Suh to flow to the ball. I think Suh's role in that Nebraska offense was actually largely that of a Tampa 2 DT, where no matter whether he lined up right over a guard or wedged in between the guard and center, he wasn't really asked to do more than locate the ball and make plays.

If you're insinuating that somehow Suh wasn't asked to rush the passer and if he had his game would be more like McCoy's, I don't agree. I think they have distinctly different ways of getting past college lineman (college being the operative word there).

You clearly didn't watch enough Husker football this past year, because you're 100% incorrect in this assertion, and I really don't know why you'd make such a claim. Despite his stats, Suh was never "turned loose," as you say. Did you watch the Virginia Tech game?

Dennis Moore
02-12-2010, 02:51 AM
Speaking from what I saw of Suh last year, I'd say that he definitely wasn't asked to sit at the LOS very often.

You're out of your element in this case.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xJx17nVZs7g

Watch Suh on these two plays. Does that look like a player who is told to just get after the ball? On both plays, had he pinned his ears back instead of hesitating, the result clearly would have been different. If you'd seen the whole thing, you'd realize this was by design to prevent Taylor from escaping the pocket, and it worked for all but those two plays. Suh sat on the line and forced him to throw the ball, which was largely ineffective. FUNBUNCHER is correct and you are not.

MiWolves
02-12-2010, 10:48 AM
The only game where I've seen him rush the passer was against Texas and he had like 4.5 sacks.

ThePudge
02-12-2010, 10:58 AM
The only game where I've seen him rush the passer was against Texas and he had like 4.5 sacks.

So how would you compare and contrast the pass-rushing of Gerald McCoy and Suh? Is Suh the better pass-rusher? Does McCoy have more flaws in his game?

Babylon
02-12-2010, 11:01 AM
For me it's Suh to the Rams and here's why. I think he's best suited and will be more of a force as a 3-4 DE (think Richard Seymour). The Rams can play Adam Carriker at the other DE and Chris Long as a rush OLB.

ThePudge
02-12-2010, 11:07 AM
For me it's Suh to the Rams and here's why. I think he's best suited and will be more of a force as a 3-4 DE (think Richard Seymour). The Rams can play Adam Carriker at the other DE and Chris Long as a rush OLB.

The Rams are moving to the 3-4? Right now it would appear that Gerald McCoy is hands down the better fit in Spags' scheme. He really isn't very far behind Suh, and though Ndamukong is at the top of my board the margin is as slim as can be. A year before Suh was the most dominant defensive force in the Big XII as a Senior, McCoy was as a Sophomore (RS.). McCoy has more experience lining up at 3-4 DE, 4-3 DE, 3-4 NT, and his natural 4-3 UT.

I'm in the process of writing a big article on the first pick, and it'll feature scouting reports on the two. I did a lot of double checking, a lot of re-watching, and the gap is so small on the field that it's nearly non-existent. Different players though, and I can't help but to think even if Suh is a slightly better player, McCoy is the superior fit for the St. Louis Rams on defense. Of course, you have to consider the business side and the name that Ndamukong Suh brings.

Babylon
02-12-2010, 11:18 AM
The Rams are moving to the 3-4? Right now it would appear that Gerald McCoy is hands down the better fit in Spags' scheme. He really isn't very far behind Suh, and though Ndamukong is at the top of my board the margin is as slim as can be. A year before Suh was the most dominant defensive force in the Big XII as a Senior, McCoy was as a Sophomore (RS.). McCoy has more experience lining up at 3-4 DE, 4-3 DE, 3-4 NT, and his natural 4-3 UT.

I'm in the process of writing a big article on the first pick, and it'll feature scouting reports on the two. I did a lot of double checking, a lot of re-watching, and the gap is so small on the field that it's nearly non-existent. Different players though, and I can't help but to think even if Suh is a slightly better player, McCoy is the superior fit for the St. Louis Rams on defense. Of course, you have to consider the business side and the name that Ndamukong Suh brings.

I would suggest they move to a 3-4. Suh i think is a natural at that DE spot, Carriker would hopefully find a home on the other side like an Aaron Smith in Pittsburgh and they need to free up Chris Long to maximize his potential. They havent called to get my take but i'm sure that will happen soon.:)

NGSeiler
02-12-2010, 11:22 AM
No, the Rams aren't moving to the 3-4. Adam Carriker might not even make the 2010 team; they're not going to completely change defensive schemes for his sake.

ThePudge
02-12-2010, 11:25 AM
I would suggest they move to a 3-4. Suh i think is a natural at that DE spot, Carriker would hopefully find a home on the other side like an Aaron Smith in Pittsburgh and they need to free up Chris Long to maximize his potential. They havent called to get my take but i'm sure that will happen soon.:)

I see where you're coming from, I just doubt it. I'm more of a fan of implementing a scheme and working to find players that fit that scheme, rather than build your system around your players. I think it just seems a lot more consistent there, especially for the veterans. I think Suh's a Top 3 pick at 3-4 DE, but after watching him play it at such a high level in college, I'm not sure that McCoy isn't a better fit there too. It's a very strange situation at the top of the board with these two...

Babylon
02-12-2010, 11:46 AM
No, the Rams aren't moving to the 3-4. Adam Carriker might not even make the 2010 team; they're not going to completely change defensive schemes for his sake.

Just thought you would like to utilize the personal you have, It's worked so well there why change it i guess.

ThePudge
02-12-2010, 11:54 AM
Just thought you would like to utilize the personal you have, It's worked so well there why change it i guess.

It's just not common for a defense to change due to it's personnel, rather than due to a new coach & scheme. That kind of stuff typically only happens in college when so much relies on what recruits you can get and careers last 3 or 4 years. It's up to debate whether the Rams should switch to a 3-4, but I highly doubt that's what will happen. Give Spags his two Top 3 picks and see what he can build.

NGSeiler
02-12-2010, 12:02 PM
Just thought you would like to utilize the personal you have, It's worked so well there why change it i guess.

Spagnuolo and company didn't draft Adam Carriker. His contract isn't so massive that the Rams have to find a way to use him. And prior to his injury this year, Carriker was running with the second and third team defense during camp and practices. So I'm just struggling to see why the Rams would shift to a completely different scheme - different not only from what they've been building so far but from what the coaching staff is used to using - simply for the sake of one guy who hasn't even proven he can stay on the field.

clay_allison
02-12-2010, 12:18 PM
I wonder if the contract negotiations will affect which is chosen

Babylon
02-12-2010, 01:04 PM
It's just not common for a defense to change due to it's personnel, rather than due to a new coach & scheme. That kind of stuff typically only happens in college when so much relies on what recruits you can get and careers last 3 or 4 years. It's up to debate whether the Rams should switch to a 3-4, but I highly doubt that's what will happen. Give Spags his two Top 3 picks and see what he can build.

Seems to me the Giants went to a 3-4 for Lawrence Taylor and the Cowboys the same for Demarcus Ware, i may be wrong but i think if you draft strictly to fit your scheme you run the risk of getting players with lesser grades.

Paranoidmoonduck
02-12-2010, 01:19 PM
You're out of your element in this case.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xJx17nVZs7g

Watch Suh on these two plays. Does that look like a player who is told to just get after the ball? On both plays, had he pinned his ears back instead of hesitating, the result clearly would have been different. If you'd seen the whole thing, you'd realize this was by design to prevent Taylor from escaping the pocket, and it worked for all but those two plays. Suh sat on the line and forced him to throw the ball, which was largely ineffective. FUNBUNCHER is correct and you are not.

Okay, two things.

One, Suh did charge into his man to gain room on both those plays, but there's no doubt he was spying on Taylor. I don't exactly see where I said denied he ever did so.

Two, taking two plays of prevent defense at the end of the game as evidence for how Suh was asked to sit at the line isn't really particularly strong. Unless you're arguing that Suh was playing a spy almost every snap, which I know isn't true.

Let's take a look at some footage from the Clemson game...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oLUau5jlNNE

At 1:20 Suh is playing the nose and throws himself into the 2-gap. Whether that was a pre-snap read from him (like it appears he made at 1:06 or 6:02) or not, I don't know, but he gets blown off the ball.

Besides that, all I'm seeing is Suh making reads on runners, flowing to the ball, and spinning/ripping/swimming around lineman to rush the passer. His first step is always forward, and so long as there isn't a quick handoff or the hint of a screen (something he does a great job of reading quickly), he's absolutely charging for the quarterback.

Dennis Moore
02-12-2010, 02:09 PM
Why do you persist? You clearly don't know what you're talking about. You dig up film for a game from last year, and even while the scheme was quite similar, you highlight just three plays from a six minute clip. Look, I'm not bothering to comment on McCoy, because I haven't seen every game he's played. I have seen every game Suh's played, though, and I want to make sure people realize that you're way off base. I don't even think you're clear on what you're arguing against. "His first step is always forward." Of course it is, why wouldn't it be? If I had to guess, I'd say you're getting confused because Suh is so quick to diagnose plays/break blocks that it's hard to tell at times whether or not he was assigned this or just did it naturally.

Paranoidmoonduck
02-12-2010, 02:38 PM
Yes...how dare I challenge your obvious superiority...

I highlighted the one play on that tape where it appeared Suh wasn't freely chasing the ball. All the others clearly appeared to support my opinion of Suh. But since that was too hard to deduce or something, let's take a look at that Virginia Tech game: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QzjmC3sD6W8

You show me a single play (besides those last two) there where Suh isn't either trying to drive his man to the runner or trying to shed his man to rush the passer.

Now, I mostly just think we're misunderstanding each other. All defensive lineman are asked to read a play based first on whether the lineman are dropping into pass protection or driving into run blocking. Suh was, McCoy was, Price was, they all were (except Terrence Cody, he wasn't).

MiWolves said that Suh wasn't asked to "rush the passer" and I said that I didn't understand what that meant. Even 3-tech's in a Tampa 2 scheme, perhaps the most liberated defensive tackles in terms of responsibility, still have to make that essential read, and all of them have to penetrate the line if they want to rush the passer. So I responded to clarify that Suh was almost never really asked to fill a role that specifically prevented him from rushing the passer. Whether he was playing the nose or end in Nebraska's 3 man front or playing the 3 or 2-tech in the 4 man front, he was given the freedom to read the play and react how he saw fit. Not all of the Nebraska linemen were allowed to do so, form what I've seen at least.

Suh was largely turned loose to make his own decisions on the field. The defensive coaches didn't try to place him in defensive plays by having him rush a certain part of the field, they let him make his own choices. And they definitely didn't ask him to crash a hole and just stick there as a way to free up the rest of the defense. Moreover, Suh wasn't specifically asked to not rush the passer. His methodology of getting by lineman is by driving them off balance and tossing them aside. That is how he rushes the passer. To pretend like he didn't do a whole ton of that the last two years at Nebraska is simply disingenuous.

Dennis Moore
02-12-2010, 02:59 PM
That game is also from last year. You're correct that it's not like he wasn't allowed to get after the QB on most obvious passing plays, but you're still wrong in claiming he wasn't asked to fill a role and instead was "set loose."

Dennis Moore
02-12-2010, 03:07 PM
Which isn't really such a big deal, because he still dominated games this way. MiWolves post is half correct in that Suh would have had more sacks if he had been sent more often, but less tackles, etc. I just want to be clear that my arguments here have nothing to do specifically with the Suh vs. McCoy debate, and are simply attempting to clarify a misconception. I can't speak to McCoy because I haven't seen him play enough.

frubulubu
02-12-2010, 09:22 PM
Paranoid and Moon, are fun to see each other sharing your views. Im curious to discover, who both of you believe will be going first overall. Will Spags go with his typicsl lineman or explore a diferent style of lineman?