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View Full Version : Could Dez Bryant go as early as #3?


superman
02-19-2010, 08:23 AM
I don't really see anybody mentioning it, but isn't Antonio Bryant pretty much done with the Bucs? Berry is nasty, but I don't know that safety is that big of a need to use at #3. Give Freeman another weapon along with Winslow.

RWills
02-19-2010, 08:37 AM
I have thought of this as well for a while, I want to wait till the combine to pass judgement, but they have no WR in a poor WR free agency. They need to surround Freeman with talent to grow or he will be lost. Then financially..are you ready to give a FS #3 money? I was also wondering if they would bother with a LT as well, Penn will want a lot of money after this season and they are concerned about his weight, despite playing at pro bowl level before injury

AntoinCD
02-19-2010, 08:52 AM
Simple answer is yes. If Suh and McCoy go 1 and 2, the Bucs don't like Eric Berrys value at 3 and can't trade down then Bryant could be next on their wishlist

AntoinCD
02-19-2010, 08:52 AM
Simple answer is yes. If Suh and McCoy go 1 and 2, the Bucs dot like Eric Berrys value at 3 and can't trade down the Bryant could be next on their wishlist

RealityCheck
02-19-2010, 09:06 AM
Simple answer is yes. If Suh and McCoy go 1 and 2, the Bucs dot like Eric Berrys value at 3 and can't trade down the Bryant could be next on their wishlist
What this wise Pats fan said.

GoRavens
02-19-2010, 09:28 AM
anything can happen in the NFL draft

bored of education
02-19-2010, 09:30 AM
I am on the Dez Bryant train to KC. I want KC to get McClain, Berry or Bryant. I can see Tampa going with Dez if both Suh and McCoy are off the board.

tjsunstein
02-19-2010, 09:32 AM
Simply stated, he could but I don't think the Bucs pull the trigger.

RealityCheck
02-19-2010, 09:41 AM
anything can happen in the NFL draft
You stole Jim Ross' line.

GoRavens
02-19-2010, 09:48 AM
I used to love Jim Ross back in 99'
http://cdn.bleacherreport.com/images_root/slideshows/436/slideshow_43624/display_image.jpg
Stone Cold Steve Austin > Anybody

RealityCheck
02-19-2010, 09:50 AM
Funny how we brought JR up on a thread that talks about a Oklahoma State player.

ThePudge
02-19-2010, 10:08 AM
Dez Bryant could very, very easily find his way into the Top 5 Overall in April and I consider him the top option for Tampa Bay after the DTs. I've been preaching him for awhile as one of the top 5 WR prospects of the past decade. If he played this year there's a chance that he could make a legitimate claim as a sleeper at 1st Overall. A 3-5 value that should go in that range to either Tampa or Kansas City.

FlyingElvis
02-19-2010, 10:28 AM
Absolutely. The positional value is better for WR than S so there's no reason he couldn't go there. I don't think the Bucs need OT (thought I'm not 100% sure) so WR is one of the best values positionally at #3.

RealityCheck
02-19-2010, 10:36 AM
I still dont think Berry will go #3. I mean, taking a safety at #3? come on.

prock
02-19-2010, 11:52 AM
I love Dez to Tampa.

George Lippard
02-19-2010, 12:06 PM
If A. Bryant walks (more than likely), Freeman is short on options, very short.

Stroughter
Stovall
Clayton
Clark

Sammie Stroughter is a slot type at best. Stovall is a #4/redzone WR at best. Clayton/Clark are garbage.

Morris has made it a point that the Buccaneers will try to supply Freeman with as many options as possible, Dez Bryant is a legitimate option.

If Suh-McCoy went 1-2, I wouldn't want to choose between Berry and Bryant.

wicket
02-19-2010, 12:32 PM
I actually think that the bucs would have a good shot at trading down if suh and mccoy are both gone, one of the QB picking teams will have a big preference either for bradford or clausen and will be afraid that there boy will be gone by the next pick

CC.SD
02-19-2010, 01:01 PM
Honestly this could be a case where what he runs in the 40 actually matters. If Dez turns in something around a 4.4 he could justify a top 3 selection. However, and I know this is not the popular theory, I just don't see Suh/McCoy coming off the board 1 and 2. 2 DTs in the top 2? Has this ever happened?

FlyingElvis
02-19-2010, 01:40 PM
Honestly this could be a case where what he runs in the 40 actually matters. If Dez turns in something around a 4.4 he could justify a top 3 selection. However, and I know this is not the popular theory, I just don't see Suh/McCoy coming off the board 1 and 2. 2 DTs in the top 2? Has this ever happened?

I think it's possible. But, like wicket mentions, the Bucs will have a good shot at trading down if it does go that way. The should be able to move down a few spots so a team in need of a QB can secure their guy.

SloppyJoe
02-19-2010, 02:02 PM
If Suh and McCoy are gone at #3 my first choice is Dez Bryant
In a perfect world we trade back a few spots, pick up an extra pick and still select Dez Bryant.

SenorGato
02-19-2010, 02:15 PM
I love Dez to Tampa.

+1

It just makes sense...they drafted their future QB a year ago.

K Train
02-19-2010, 02:19 PM
the would probably be better off taking lafell or williams at 35 and addressing either DT if the rams take clausen or berry who is an elite talent, not just your average safety

descendency
02-19-2010, 02:25 PM
If you take a WR at 3, you deserve to be the Lions... I mean, you deserve to be in the top 3 next year.

Franchise pieces are FAR more important than taking the best player available. Do the Bucs feel they have a DE? a LT? a QB? a shutdown corner? a defensive captain?

WRs are the least important position on the field. Maybe RG.

K Train
02-19-2010, 02:29 PM
If you take a WR at 3, you deserve to be the Lions... I mean, you deserve to be in the top 3 next year.

Franchise pieces are FAR more important than taking the best player available. Do the Bucs feel they have a DE? a LT? a QB? a shutdown corner? a defensive captain?

WRs are the least important position on the field. Maybe RG.
this

bryant is not a talent like calvin johnson, those are the WRs you take that early.

i think berry makes perfect sense for them, they would go from being so old in the secondary to having some great young talents in berry and talib

George Lippard
02-19-2010, 02:34 PM
this

bryant is not a talent like calvin johnson, those are the WRs you take that early.

i think berry makes perfect sense for them, they would go from being so old in the secondary to having some great young talents in berry and talib

I get what you're saying but the only "old" player in the secondary is Ronde Barber. Aqib Talib is 24, Elbert Mack is 23, Tanard Jackson is about to turn 25, Sabby is 26. The Bucs obviously need another corner soon (and maybe another safety) but to say that the secondary is old is simply false.

FlyingElvis
02-19-2010, 02:41 PM
If you take a WR at 3, you deserve to be the Lions... I mean, you deserve to be in the top 3 next year.

Franchise pieces are FAR more important than taking the best player available. Do the Bucs feel they have a DE? a LT? a QB? a shutdown corner? a defensive captain?

WRs are the least important position on the field. Maybe RG.

The only way WRs are that unimportant is when you have a stud QB. And even then that's arguable. Brady/Moss . . . 'nuff said.

Tampa is set at all but DE, iirc. So the pick seems to be between S, DE & WR. The problem is that no player is the obvious choice at 3 in both skill level and positional value. To me, that means any one of the 3 is a viable possibility.

ThePudge
02-19-2010, 02:43 PM
this

bryant is not a talent like calvin johnson, those are the WRs you take that early.

i think berry makes perfect sense for them, they would go from being so old in the secondary to having some great young talents in berry and talib

Just off the top of my head...

Charles Rogers 2003
Andre Johnson 2003
Larry Fitzgerald 2004
Braylon Edwards 2005
Calvin Johnson 2007

Top 5 picks at Wide Receiver. In seven years there have been three teams to draft receivers in the first five picks and I'd say three (bold) have to be pretty happy. Dez Bryant is certainly different, though he isn't far behind what Larry Fitzgerald was as a prospect. He is very much an elite Wide Receiver prospect and a Top 3-5 value. A good fit for the Bucs and their offense. Obviously you'd like Suh or McCoy there, but Tampa Bay would have to like the idea of adding a future star receiver. I like Dez a good deal more than I did Michael Crabtree a year ago.

K Train
02-19-2010, 02:44 PM
I get what you're saying but the only "old" player in the secondary is Ronde Barber. Aqib Talib is 24, Elbert Mack is 23, Tanard Jackson is about to turn 25, Sabby is 26. The Bucs obviously need another corner soon (and maybe another safety) but to say that the secondary is old is simply false.

not so much old right now, but it would be a dramatic turn around from a few years ago when it was one of the most veteren defenses in the league with alot of older players at all the positions, im saying with an elite prospect like berry it would just be such a turn around on defense in a few years going from one of the best, stable, veteren defense to one loaded with youth and tons of potential.

K Train
02-19-2010, 02:46 PM
Just off the top of my head...

Charles Rogers 2003
Andre Johnson 2003
Larry Fitzgerald 2004
Braylon Edwards 2005
Calvin Johnson 2007

Top 5 picks at Wide Receiver. In seven years there have been five receivers drafted in the first five picks and I'd say three (bold) have to be pretty happy. Dez Bryant is certainly different, though he isn't far behind what Larry Fitzgerald was as a prospect. He is very much an elite Wide Receiver prospect and a Top 3-5 value. A good fit for the Bucs and their offense. Obviously you'd like Suh or McCoy there, but Tampa Bay would have to like the idea of adding a future star receiver. I like Dez a good deal more than I did Michael Crabtree a year ago.

i was a huge fan of andre and calvin johnson, i wasnt so much of rogers, edwards or fitzgerald, and i didnt think crabtree was top 5 value either.

i just dont think bryant is an immediate impact guy which is what they need....this is a pretty good WR class, there will be first round talent at 35

ThePudge
02-19-2010, 02:52 PM
i was a huge fan of andre and calvin johnson, i wasnt so much of rogers, edwards or fitzgerald, and i didnt think crabtree was top 5 value either.

i just dont think bryant is an immediate impact guy which is what they need....this is a pretty good WR class, there will be first round talent at 35

The gap between Bryant and the next best receiver in this draft is enormous. Dez Bryant is far away the best #1 Wide Receiver prospect in this draft and has star potential. There's no one close in terms of raw talent and physical ability in this draft; even if the second best receiver is on the board at 35 (Benn, Tate, etc.), they still don't get near the player they would in Dez. Still underrated at this point in the process but his game tape speaks for itself and he'll be a big one to watch in Indianapolis.

K Train
02-19-2010, 02:55 PM
The gap between Bryant and the next best receiver in this draft is enormous. Dez Bryant is far away the best #1 Wide Receiver prospect in this draft and has star potential. There's no one close in terms of raw talent and physical ability in this draft; even if the second best receiver is on the board at 35 (Benn, Tate, etc.), they still don't get near the player they would in Dez. Still underrated at this point in the process but his game tape speaks for itself and he'll be a big one to watch in Indianapolis.

i do agree with this, i just dont know about the bucs taking him at 3, i know hes the best though im not arguing that, but i would not pass on berry for him, thats just how high i am on berry

ThePudge
02-19-2010, 03:00 PM
i do agree with this, i just dont know about the bucs taking him at 3, i know hes the best though im not arguing that, but i would not pass on berry for him, thats just how high i am on berry

See, I'm one that doesn't believe a Safety is worth the 3rd Overall pick. If the Bucs trade down to 6 or so I think Berry would be a real solid option for them. I think the reward for Tampa Bay is potentially so much higher with Bryant, largely because of new franchise Quarterback Josh Freeman. They have their pass-catching Tight End in Winslow and could really start to go places with a #1 Wide Receiver. I think Bryant's a lot more NFL ready than many make him out to be and I think he has the ability to be somewhere in the 800-1000 yards range as a rookie. NFL-ready body, beats the jam, explosive and sudden, great feet, deep speed, and the ability to go up and get the ball.

superman
02-19-2010, 03:04 PM
this

bryant is not a talent like calvin johnson, those are the WRs you take that early.

i think berry makes perfect sense for them, they would go from being so old in the secondary to having some great young talents in berry and talib

i actually think dez is top 3 talent

calvin skews it because all though he wasn't the #1 ovr pick, everybody knows he should have been and was a couple rungs above any prospect ever.

K Train
02-19-2010, 03:08 PM
See, I'm one that doesn't believe a Safety is worth the 3rd Overall pick. If the Bucs trade down to 6 or so I think Berry would be a real solid option for them. I think the reward for Tampa Bay is potentially so much higher with Bryant, largely because of new franchise Quarterback Josh Freeman. They have their pass-catching Tight End in Winslow and could really start to go places with a #1 Wide Receiver. I think Bryant's a lot more NFL ready than many make him out to be and I think he has the ability to be somewhere in the 800-1000 yards range as a rookie. NFL-ready body, beats the jam, explosive and sudden, great feet, deep speed, and the ability to go up and get the ball.

i could see that, not many think safeties should go top 5, and i usually agree with that but berry is a better prospect than polamalu, landry, reed, huff, taylor...ect

i am NOT saying he will be better than any of those guys, just saying right now hes a better prospect...what he actually does remains to be seen. i may be in the minority with that but imo hes the best DB prospect ive seen in my lifetime.

but if they take bryant, theres not going to be many that argue with the pick, hes the top WR and a legitimate need that would boost the band of misfits they have out wide right away

V.I.P
02-19-2010, 03:11 PM
We need to go D in the first round. Whether it be Berry, Haden, or Morgan. We need to bring the D back to the old feared Tampa Bay defense. There are going to be plenty of good Wide Receivers in the early second round. Golden Tate, Damian Williams, etc.

Morton
02-19-2010, 03:13 PM
I don't possibly see why any team in the top 5 needs to spend a high pick on a receiver this year, even if that receiver is potentially the second coming of Jerry Rice.

All of the teams picking in the top 5 have far more pressing needs (i.e. QB, LT, DT, etc)

1. Rams: They'd be foolish to spend this pick on a WR when they have SO many other needs, including the most important one: Quarterback.

2. Lions: Uh, they already have Calvin Johnson, they've already picked approximately 200 wide receivers in the first round of the draft this past decade already, and they have HUGE holes elsewhere.

3. Bucs: Awful defense needs fixing first. Their secondary is very old.

4. Redskins: They could use a good WR, but they need a LT and possibly a QB, far, far more.

5. Chiefs: They need a LT badly. Matt Cassel is not going to survive 2010 without a better offensive line, period.

V.I.P
02-19-2010, 03:21 PM
3. Bucs: Awful defense needs fixing first. Their secondary is very old.


the only "old" player in the secondary is Ronde Barber. Aqib Talib is 24, Elbert Mack is 23, Tanard Jackson is about to turn 25, Sabby is 26. The Bucs obviously need another corner soon (and maybe another safety) but to say that the secondary is old is simply false.

Where is everybody getting this "old" secondary stuff from ??

George Lippard
02-19-2010, 03:23 PM
Where is everybody getting this "old" secondary stuff from ??

It is definitely a carry-over from a couple of years ago when the entire defense was old.

FlyingElvis
02-19-2010, 03:24 PM
We need to go D in the first round. Whether it be Berry, Haden, or Morgan. We need to bring the D back to the old feared Tampa Bay defense. There are going to be plenty of good Wide Receivers in the early second round. Golden Tate, Damian Williams, etc.

Bryant / Spikes would be an infinitely better draft. Similar ILB at a much better price and far superior WR.

ThePudge
02-19-2010, 03:31 PM
Since Bryant is the subject I figured I'd post my scouting report on him.

http://images.athlonsports.com/d/13073-1/DezBryant1.jpg
Dez Bryant - WR - Oklahoma State
6'1 3/4e 215e 4.45e
#1 WR - #3 Overall

The main thing that stands out about Dez Bryant is that he's quicker, faster, and more explosive than most think. Everyone knew he was a beast a year ago. His stats, which he accumulated in a more pro-style offense where the running game was a big part are extremely impressive. The guy had 87 rec for 1480 yds (17.0 avg) and 19 Td's; in addition to being the nation's best receiver, he was also an explosive punt returner with a 15.3 avg and 2 Td's.

Not many talk about Bryant as a Punt Returner, but that's where you really get to see how good his feet are, how quick he is to accelerate, and his deep speed. He's a sudden player as well, capable of getting separation on comeback routes and out routes. He has elite body control, and is a big, physical guy who makes plays in traffic, and has no fear of going over the middle. He's got strong hands, goes up and gets balls, and creates for himself after the catch and runs hard.

Some question his physical tools, but I'd imagine he'll wind up measuring in at about 6'1 3/4 or so 215, and I expect he'll run somewhere around 4.45, perhaps even a bit faster (I just think the guy has excellent explosion and game speed.) Bryat has long arms and tremendous leaping ability so he plays bigger than his height. The biggest knock against him is his suspension off the field, and the lack of college experience he has on the field. Also, due to inexperience there is some concern that he may be raw as a route-runner.

The more I think about it, the more I see it, Dez Bryant is an elite WR prospect deserving a Top 5 selection in April. He doesn't have all that big a college track record to look at, but in 2008-09 he showcased elite talent, and flashed that same ability in three games this season. Behind Ndamukong Suh and Gerald McCoy, I think Dez Bryant is the best NFL prospect in this class. I'm not saying he'll be Andre Johnson, I'm not saying he's Larry Fitzgerald, but I don't think he has to be exactly one of those guys to succeed. I think Bryant will be an impact player right away at the next level, and should be a star receiver in the NFL.

Pros
o+ Explosive; Gets to top speed quickly and is sudden off the snap
o+ Elite Leaping Ability, excels at going up and getting the ball
o+ Body Control, is able to control himself very well in the air
o+ Hands, catches the ball away from his body with big, strong hands
o+ Size, at a chiseled, well-built, and long 6'1 3/4 215
o+ Ability to create after the catch, explosive, physical, and fast
o+ Deep Speed, has great vertical speed and really separates after the catch
o+ Great feet, surprisingly nimble feet make him great in phone-booth
o+ Makes tough catches in traffic, is tough over the middle and runs hard
o+ Production, unbelievable output when on the field
o+ Vertical Threat
o+ Experience as a Punt Returner

Cons
o- Sat out most of 2009-10 season
o- Has a lot to prove physically at the NFL Combine
o- Only one year of major production; inexperienced
o- Raw route-runner, will need to see extra reps
o- Minor character concerns

Morton
02-19-2010, 03:42 PM
Where is everybody getting this "old" secondary stuff from ??

Well,let's see... the best player in your secondary is near retirement-age.

Ok, so Ronde Barber probably needs to be replaced at some point, and that's it, and the other guys in your secondary are pretty young. BUT I still think the Bucs need a good DT / CB / S alot more than they need a good WR.

K Train
02-19-2010, 03:43 PM
is jermaine phillips still playing FS for them?

AkiliSmith
02-19-2010, 03:55 PM
Bryant / Spikes would be an infinitely better draft. Similar ILB at a much better price and far superior WR.
I thought Barrett Ruud was a pretty damn good player?

I think a combo of Bryant/Hardy or Bryant/Odrick would be far better than Berry/other receiver. Plus Tanard Jackson is a good FS already so I don't see why they need another one.

descendency
02-19-2010, 03:56 PM
The only way WRs are that unimportant is when you have a stud QB. And even then that's arguable. Brady/Moss . . . 'nuff said.

Tampa is set at all but DE, iirc. So the pick seems to be between S, DE & WR. The problem is that no player is the obvious choice at 3 in both skill level and positional value. To me, that means any one of the 3 is a viable possibility.

The WRs from the Super Bowl winning teams: Troy Brown, David Givens, David Patten, Deion Branch, and Bethel Johnson.

How many top 5 picks are in that group? First rounder level talents when Brady was throwing to them?

Brady and Moss put up big numbers but couldn't cash in on a ring because the OL cracked. Which does more to support my argument than hurt it. If WR was important, the Patriots would have steam rolled the Giants.

Morton
02-19-2010, 03:57 PM
Bryant / Spikes would be an infinitely better draft. Similar ILB at a much better price and far superior WR.

Eric Berry is a far, far better draft choice than Spikes as a defensive player.

Berry in the 1st / Tate or Williams in the 2nd is a superior draft to Bryant in the 1st / Spikes in the 2nd.

If Berry pans out as an elite safety, he will undoubtedly have a greater impact on the team's ability to win games than if Bryant pans out as an elite wide receiver.

Case in point: Would the Steelers have been able to win two Super Bowls if they had drafted, say, Andre Johnson in the 2003 NFL Draft instead of Troy Polamalu? I don't think an extra WR threat would have done nearly as much for their offense as Polamalu did for their elite defense. You don't win championships with elite offenses - you win championships with elite defenses.

In other words, you can win championships with a great offense, but only if you have at least a good defense. You can win championships with a great defense and a mediocre offense. But you can't win championships with a great offense and a poor defense. Just doesn't happen.

Any team with a high draft pick this year would be well advised to pick a defensive player, unless they want to be like Detriot and follow their dubious rebuilding strategy of selecting WRs in the first round, OR they have an elite defense already in place. (the top teams picking int he draft this year DON'T).

V.I.P
02-19-2010, 03:58 PM
Bryant / Spikes would be an infinitely better draft. Similar ILB at a much better price and far superior WR.

We already have a pretty good ILB in Barrett Ruud.

.Well,let's see... the best player in your secondary is near retirement-age.


Barber isn't the best player in our secondary.

is jermaine phillips still playing FS for them?

He plays SS, and he's most likely gettin released this off-season.

Me Likey Rookies
02-19-2010, 04:31 PM
Morton - Barber is the 3rd best player in the secondary behind Talib and Jackson.

I really like Spikes or D. Washington in the 2nd round but I think the Bucs will stick with Ruud for another year. There are too many other glaring holes at DT, CB, SS, WR.

MikeTeel
02-19-2010, 04:35 PM
We already have a pretty good ILB in Barrett Ruud.

.

Barber isn't the best player in our secondary.



He plays SS, and he's most likely gettin released this off-season.

Is Jermaine not good anymore?

George Lippard
02-19-2010, 04:36 PM
Is Jermaine not good anymore?

Average to slightly above average. His injuries have prevented him from contributing for most of his career. He was being converted to weakside linebacker this last season before he was injured. He gets lost in coverage but he can play the box well.

prock
02-19-2010, 04:37 PM
The gap between Dez and a receiver that would be available is far greater than the gap between Berry and a safety at 35. I would be much happier, if I were a Bucs fan, with Dez and Nate Allen or Chad Jones than I would be with Berry and let's say Damien Williams.

George Lippard
02-19-2010, 04:40 PM
The gap between Dez and a receiver that would be available is far greater than the gap between Berry and a safety at 35. I would be much happier, if I were a Bucs fan, with Dez and Nate Allen or Chad Jones than I would be with Berry and let's say Damien Williams.

Aye, but the gap between Berry and Bryant is sizeable in my opinion.

prock
02-19-2010, 04:40 PM
The WRs from the Super Bowl winning teams: Troy Brown, David Givens, David Patten, Deion Branch, and Bethel Johnson.

How many top 5 picks are in that group? First rounder level talents when Brady was throwing to them?

Brady and Moss put up big numbers but couldn't cash in on a ring because the OL cracked. Which does more to support my argument than hurt it. If WR was important, the Patriots would have steam rolled the Giants.

So you think it is unimportant to surround a young, developing quarterback with talented skill position players?

prock
02-19-2010, 04:41 PM
Aye, but the gap between Berry and Bryant is sizeable in my opinion.

I think Dez is a better pro prospect with less holes in his game. Plus, wide receiver is a better value pick in the top 3 than safety.

George Lippard
02-19-2010, 04:44 PM
I think Dez is a better pro prospect with less holes in his game. Plus, wide receiver is a better value pick in the top 3 than safety.

What holes does Berry have? Not trying to be a smartass, I'm curious.

Both WR and S are generally regarded as complimentary pieces. I'd put them on equal ground in terms of "value". Plus, I'm not a big fan of giving certain positions more weight than the others (K/P being the exceptions).

MichaelJordanEberle (sabf)
02-19-2010, 04:45 PM
I pity the fool who drafts Dez Bryant 3rd overall.

prock
02-19-2010, 04:46 PM
Eric Berry is a far, far better draft choice than Spikes as a defensive player.

Berry in the 1st / Tate or Williams in the 2nd is a superior draft to Bryant in the 1st / Spikes in the 2nd.

If Berry pans out as an elite safety, he will undoubtedly have a greater impact on the team's ability to win games than if Bryant pans out as an elite wide receiver.

Case in point: Would the Steelers have been able to win two Super Bowls if they had drafted, say, Andre Johnson in the 2003 NFL Draft instead of Troy Polamalu? I don't think an extra WR threat would have done nearly as much for their offense as Polamalu did for their elite defense. You don't win championships with elite offenses - you win championships with elite defenses.

In other words, you can win championships with a great offense, but only if you have at least a good defense. You can win championships with a great defense and a mediocre offense. But you can't win championships with a great offense and a poor defense. Just doesn't happen.

Any team with a high draft pick this year would be well advised to pick a defensive player, unless they want to be like Detriot and follow their dubious rebuilding strategy of selecting WRs in the first round, OR they have an elite defense already in place. (the top teams picking int he draft this year DON'T).

You win the Super Bowl with a solid team that gets hot at the right time. You can definitely win the Super Bowl with an average defense. You can win it with a crappy offense. Your Steelers situation is stupid because Andre was off the board. And Andre Johnson would do as much for their offense as Polamalu does for their defense.

Obviously Berry is a superior defensive prospect than Spikes, which is why Spikes is going in the second and Berry in the top 7.

If Berry pans out, he won't have the same effect on his team as Bryant would because Dez will help the development of their quarterback immensely. Would you rather trot out Nate Allen and some other safety and Dez Bryant next year, or would you rather have Berry instead of Allen and then have Michael Clayton as your best receiver?

Saints-Tigers
02-19-2010, 04:46 PM
Berry is a better prospect than Bryant by a lot, it's not even close.

George Lippard
02-19-2010, 04:48 PM
If Berry pans out, he won't have the same effect on his team as Bryant would because Dez will help the development of their quarterback immensely. Would you rather trot out Nate Allen and some other safety and Dez Bryant next year, or would you rather have Berry instead of Allen and then have Michael Clayton as your best receiver?

Bold: Maybe, you can't be certain. Freeman is going to be whatever he's going to be no matter what receiving talent is around him IMO. Will it be easier if he has a Dez Bryant? Of course.

I pity the fool who drafts Dez Bryant 3rd overall.

There are 3 prospects almost universally rated higher than him, so I agree.

superman8456
02-19-2010, 04:51 PM
Berry is a better prospect than Bryant by a lot, it's not even close.

I agree with this, but they're running the tampa 2. Safety does not have an enough value in that defense for the 3rd overall pick.

I say Derrick Morgan or Anthony Davis have the best value there.

prock
02-19-2010, 04:51 PM
What holes does Berry have? Not trying to be a smartass, I'm curious.

Both WR and S are generally regarded as complimentary pieces. I'd put them on equal ground in terms of "value". Plus, I'm not a big fan of giving certain positions more weight than the others (K/P being the exceptions).

Berry is an excellent pro prospect, don't get me wrong. I have him fourth on my board. The only things I can think of when it comes to Berry are his lack of size and often takes bad angles tackling.But the only knock on Bryant is lack of college experience.

You don't like ranking positional values over each other? So center = quarterback? OG = LT? There are differences in values of positions.

George Lippard
02-19-2010, 04:52 PM
I agree with this, but they're running the tampa 2. Safety does not have an enough value in that defense for the 3rd overall pick.

I say Derrick Morgan or Anthony Davis have the best value there.

Sorry Manofsteel, but this isn't true. The Buccaneers haven't run a true Tampa 2 in at least 3 seasons. They completely changed their coverage scheme last year. Their corners were playing man instead of playing zone.

Berry is an excellent pro prospect, don't get me wrong. I have him fourth on my board. The only things I can think of when it comes to Berry are his lack of size and often takes bad angles tackling.But the only knock on Bryant is lack of college experience.

You don't like ranking positional values over each other? So center = quarterback? OG = LT? There are differences in values of positions.

I see, I figured as much.

To me, talent is talent. If two players are rated the same (or very closely) you can probably side with the greater need or the QB but generally, I just want the most talented player.

superman
02-19-2010, 05:00 PM
i like berry a lil better, but there isn't a HUGE gap between bryant and berry. bryant has better size with less experience. and what he got in trouble for won't count against him. just hope he stayed in shape.

if i were the bucs, i'd take bryant. with most other teams, i'd take berry at the same pick.

K Train
02-19-2010, 05:02 PM
berry=best DB prospect ive ever seen

dez=good WR prospect, maybe even great but not on the best ive ever seen level by any means

prock
02-19-2010, 05:03 PM
I see, I figured as much.

To me, talent is talent. If two players are rated the same (or very closely) you can probably side with the greater need or the QB but generally, I just want the most talented player.

And when the gap in talent between two players is very, very small, you take the value and the need. Right now, the Bucs need to give Freeman every opportunity to succeed. If I am the Bucs, I pick Bryant at 3 if the two DTs are off the board.

MichaelJordanEberle (sabf)
02-19-2010, 05:11 PM
berry=best DB prospect ive ever seen

dez=good WR prospect, maybe even great but not on the best ive ever seen level by any means

Exactly, and if you're taking a low value position top 3, it had better be one hell of a player you're drafting. Berry is a lot better than Bryant. Hell, I don't want Denver to draft Dez Bryant. If the Bucs pass on Eric Berry for Bryant, they'll be mired in mediocrity for years. When you have as far to go to competitiveness as the Bucs do, you go BPA.

RealityCheck
02-19-2010, 05:13 PM
Kind off topic, but would the Jags or the Fins take him if he's there at #11 or #12? Both would IMO.

superman8456
02-19-2010, 05:14 PM
And when the gap in talent between two players is very, very small, you take the value and the need. Right now, the Bucs need to give Freeman every opportunity to succeed. If I am the Bucs, I pick Bryant at 3 if the two DTs are off the board.

Giving Freeman a WR isnt giving him every opportunity to succeed. Sure, it will help, but I think a solid running game and a good offensive line are MUCH more important that a WR.

George Lippard
02-19-2010, 05:14 PM
Exactly, and if you're taking a low value position top 3, it had better be one hell of a player you're drafting. Berry is a lot better than Bryant. Hell, I don't want Denver to draft Dez Bryant. If the Bucs pass on Eric Berry for Bryant, they'll be mired in mediocrity for years. When you have as far to go to competitiveness as the Bucs do, you go BPA.

Can't disagree there.

The team is so devoid of talent they don't have the luxury to pass on the BPA.

Berry is one of those prospects that is a better bet to be a perennial pro-bowler than not.

So look at it this way. There is no chance that Bryant goes 1 or 2. It would have to be three...and there is a good chance that a QB goes 1 and one of the DTs fall to three. Sorry DB, you're not going top 3

Saints-Tigers
02-19-2010, 05:22 PM
Berry's stock seems to be dropping weekly around here and these flaws are just flying out of the woodwork, lol.

Dude has already dominated at FS, CB and SS, and now he takes bad tackling angles? why, because he missed that tackle on Ben Tate?

prock
02-19-2010, 05:31 PM
Giving Freeman a WR isnt giving him every opportunity to succeed. Sure, it will help, but I think a solid running game and a good offensive line are MUCH more important that a WR.

So you want them to take a running back or an o-lineman here? No value at either position, plus they have a pretty decent left tackle.

superman
02-19-2010, 06:31 PM
Kind off topic, but would the Jags or the Fins take him if he's there at #11 or #12? Both would IMO.

without a doubt, berry out of top 10 is a steal

Shane P. Hallam
02-19-2010, 06:32 PM
Berry's stock seems to be dropping weekly around here and these flaws are just flying out of the woodwork, lol.

Dude has already dominated at FS, CB and SS, and now he takes bad tackling angles? why, because he missed that tackle on Ben Tate?

His stock isn't really falling, but the view of the position just isn't that high. With teams starting to talk a bit (Tampa about moving up/down,) it doesn't seem teams will value a FS Top 5.

TACKLE
02-19-2010, 06:40 PM
At this point, Bryant to Tampa seems like the most likely pick for the Bucs.

V.I.P
02-19-2010, 06:55 PM
The Buccaneers haven't run a true Tampa 2 in at least 3 seasons. They completely changed their coverage scheme last year. Their corners were playing man instead of playing zone.

That's because we hired Jim Bates to be our defensive coordinator last season. Then we i realized our players weren't suited to play that D, so we fired him mid-way thru the season. :D

descendency
02-19-2010, 07:20 PM
His stock isn't really falling, but the view of the position just isn't that high. With teams starting to talk a bit (Tampa about moving up/down,) it doesn't seem teams will value a FS Top 5.

I don't understand how people think WRs are more valuable than DBs...

George Lippard
02-19-2010, 07:22 PM
That's because we hired Jim Bates to be our defensive coordinator last season. Then we i realized our players weren't suited to play that D, so we fired him mid-way thru the season. :D

He was fired, mostly because his gap schemes were failing horribly. Talib and Barber supposedly performed admirably in the man system and continued to play it post-Bates firing.

I don't understand how people think WRs are more valuable than DBs...

It is a logical fallacy to believe DBs are less valuable than WRs.

Legacy
02-19-2010, 07:28 PM
If the Bucs are going to draft Dez Bryant with the third overall pick, they might as well just call up Denver and see if they'll trade Marshall for that pick straight up.

At least the Bucs would be getting a known commodity in that situation, rather than taking a chance on a prospect.

For the record, I don't want them to draft Dez Bryant at all. Suh, McCoy or trade down. If no trade partners are available, the choice should be either Berry or Haden and I'm leaning towards Haden.

George Lippard
02-19-2010, 07:31 PM
If the Bucs are going to draft Dez Bryant with the third overall pick, they might as well just call up Denver and see if they'll trade Marshall for that pick straight up.

At least the Bucs would be getting a known commodity in that situation, rather than taking a chance on a prospect.

For the record, I don't want them to draft Dez Bryant at all. Suh, McCoy or trade down. If no trade partners are available, the choice should be either Berry or Haden and I'm leaning towards Haden.

I think you need to get MJW aka Leeroy out of your ear.

and Berry would be better at CB than Haden would.

Haden is the parasitic beneficiary of a CB class with no other great talents.

TACKLE
02-19-2010, 07:34 PM
It is a logical fallacy to believe DBs are less valuable than WRs.

You can hide DB's deficiencies with scheme and system. If you are a WR, you cannot be successful if you cannot get separation and you cannot make plays. Because of that, there is more of a desire to get a WR with the physical tools necessary to be able to separate. And those players are harder to find than smart DB's with average ball skills and athleticism. Though that DB can still be successful but it is more difficult for the WR to make plays with out the natural talent. Of course I am speaking in generalities and this is clearly not always the case. But in general this is why WR are more highly valued in the draft than DB's.

George Lippard
02-19-2010, 07:36 PM
You can hide DB's deficiencies with scheme and system. If you are a WR, you cannot be successful if you cannot get separation and you cannot make plays. Because of that, there is more of a desire to get a WR with the physical tools necessary to be able to separate. And those players are harder to find than smart DB's with average ball skills and athleticism. Though that DB can still be successful but it is more difficult for the WR to make plays with out the natural talent. Of course I am speaking in generalities and this is clearly not always the case. But in general this is why WR are more highly valued in the draft than DB's.

You can play to a WR's strengths with scheme. It goes both ways. Look at Welker.

Defense gets to the QB faster, DBs don't have to cover as long.

Offensive line gives QBs more time, WRs have more time to get open.

Sure, in some schemes like the Tampa 2 you can sacrifice athleticism at CB but that must be replaced with fundamental tackling and the ability to play zone.

P-L
02-19-2010, 07:39 PM
I don't understand how people think WRs are more valuable than DBs...
Agreed, especially in this case. I would rather have an elite safety than an elite receiver. Receivers as good as Dez Bryant come around all the time. Safeties as good as Eric Berry are much more difficult to find.

keylime_5
02-19-2010, 07:43 PM
Berry is gonna destroy at the combine, he'll be a top 3 lock by March if he's not already. Bryant would be lucky to get into the top 10 I think.....though I would be really excited if the Browns picked him (or if they picked Haden or McClain as well).

superman
02-19-2010, 07:45 PM
I don't understand how people think WRs are more valuable than DBs...

i wouldn't say they are. but for the bucs, their db's > wr's with a. bryant gone

superman
02-19-2010, 07:46 PM
If the Bucs are going to draft Dez Bryant with the third overall pick, they might as well just call up Denver and see if they'll trade Marshall for that pick straight up.

At least the Bucs would be getting a known commodity in that situation, rather than taking a chance on a prospect.

For the record, I don't want them to draft Dez Bryant at all. Suh, McCoy or trade down. If no trade partners are available, the choice should be either Berry or Haden and I'm leaning towards Haden.

i could see this. then denver would be taking dez at 3.

George Lippard
02-19-2010, 07:47 PM
i could see this. then denver would be taking dez at 3.

I don't want to start a new discussion but I think QB would be more likely.

descendency
02-19-2010, 08:11 PM
You can hide DB's deficiencies with scheme and system. If you are a WR, you cannot be successful if you cannot get separation and you cannot make plays. Because of that, there is more of a desire to get a WR with the physical tools necessary to be able to separate. And those players are harder to find than smart DB's with average ball skills and athleticism. Though that DB can still be successful but it is more difficult for the WR to make plays with out the natural talent. Of course I am speaking in generalities and this is clearly not always the case. But in general this is why WR are more highly valued in the draft than DB's.

You can hide WRs deficiencies with a good QB. See Pierre Garcon.

Complex
02-19-2010, 08:18 PM
berry=best DB prospect ive ever seen

dez=good WR prospect, maybe even great but not on the best ive ever seen level by any means

I agree with the berry part almost except Sean Taylor was better in my opinion

George Lippard
02-19-2010, 08:20 PM
I agree with the berry part almost except Sean Taylor was better in my opinion

I'd say most athletic, not well-rounded.

bigbuc
02-20-2010, 12:43 AM
If the Bucs are going to draft Dez Bryant with the third overall pick, they might as well just call up Denver and see if they'll trade Marshall for that pick straight up.

At least the Bucs would be getting a known commodity in that situation, rather than taking a chance on a prospect.

For the record, I don't want them to draft Dez Bryant at all. Suh, McCoy or trade down. If no trade partners are available, the choice should be either Berry or Haden and I'm leaning towards Haden.

I was thinking the samething. People are sleeping on how good Haden is. I think if Suh and McCoy are gone and we are at 3 take Haden and use the 2 second rounders on D linemen.

K Train
02-20-2010, 03:35 AM
I agree with the berry part almost except Sean Taylor was better in my opinion

disagree...berry is a much better prospect than taylor was and i loved taylor

GoRavens
02-20-2010, 08:14 AM
No way in hell is Berry better than Taylor was.
That could be the worst opinion I've ever heard.
SEAN TAYLOR > 2 ERIC BERRYS
Taylor was complete in every way. He was huge, he could cover, he was fast, and he completely destroyed people when he tackled.

Thumper
02-20-2010, 01:47 PM
This question doesn't even matter because Chris Stueber says that NFL sources are telling him that the Bucs actually prefer Jason Paul-Pierre to Eric Berry. Yes you heard that right, if the Bucs are sitting at #3 on draft day they would draft Jason Paul-Pierre over any other player on the board including Eric Berry, Dez Bryant, etc. etc.

HUGE mistake IMO.

bored of education
02-20-2010, 01:55 PM
This question doesn't even matter because Chris Stueber says that NFL sources are telling him that the Bucs actually prefer Jason Paul-Pierre to Eric Berry. Yes you heard that right, if the Bucs are sitting at #3 on draft day they would draft Jason Paul-Pierre over any other player on the board including Eric Berry, Dez Bryant, etc. etc.

HUGE mistake IMO.


they prefer jpp to everyone other than Suh and McCoy, you mean?

Saints-Tigers
02-20-2010, 01:58 PM
Haha, I pray that the Bucs take JPP.

Complex
02-20-2010, 02:02 PM
I like JPP but not as much as Eric berry.

Thumper
02-20-2010, 02:38 PM
they prefer jpp to everyone other than Suh and McCoy, you mean?

Yes, if Suh and McCoy are off the board at #3 and they're faced with Eric Berry, Dez Bryant and Jason Paul-Pierre, they're taking JPP.

bored of education
02-20-2010, 02:39 PM
Yes, if Suh and McCoy are off the board at #3 and they're faced with Eric Berry, Dez Bryant and Jason Paul-Pierre, they're taking JPP.

besides some other guy that says he has sources I will not believe it becuase it sounds like one of those cases throw **** against the will and maybe JPP will stick

K Train
02-20-2010, 02:40 PM
false.

JPP is not a top 20 talent, i am not high on him at all and im a south florida fan

someone will certainly take him higher than he should go but i think hes got a high bust factor

bored of education
02-20-2010, 02:41 PM
false.

JPP is not a top 20 talent, i am not high on him at all and im a south florida fan

what does being a fan of a team have to do with evaluating the talent of a player? jsut because you watch somone a lot does not mean you can evaluate talent.

Thumper
02-20-2010, 02:43 PM
false.

JPP is not a top 20 talent, i am not high on him at all and im a south florida fan

So... are you like draft overlord or something? You say it and because you said it, its true? Fact is JPP is likely going top 12, he apparently has dominant film, draft guys are really high on him and word out of the NFL is that teams are high on him as well. Do I agree? No, but I'm just throwing out everything that I'm hearing/reading.

K Train
02-20-2010, 02:44 PM
what does being a fan of a team have to do with evaluating the talent of a player? jsut because you watch somone a lot does not mean you can evaluate talent.

i feel like im a pretty good evaluator of talent, im just saying that im not going homer with my thoughts on him.

i think he needs some work and is going to be the workout warrior of the DEs this year.

risky player, certainly not better than berry or dez

K Train
02-20-2010, 02:46 PM
So... are you like draft overlord or something? You say it and because you said it, its true? Fact is JPP is likely going top 12, he apparently has dominant film, draft guys are really high on him and word out of the NFL is that teams are high on him as well. Do I agree? No, but I'm just throwing out everything that I'm hearing/reading.

not an overlord, but i dont think he would go third with berry and bryant being way more pro ready and far superior talents

Thumper
02-20-2010, 02:53 PM
not an overlord, but i dont think he would go third with berry and bryant being way more pro ready and far superior talents

More pro-ready? Maybe Eric Berry, not Dez Bryant. More talented? Probably not, JPP is one of the most talented players in this draft in terms of natural ability, he claims to run a 4.4, is 6'6" and 260 pounds and has a 90" inch wingspan, you're not going to find a player with more athletic ability than that, on top of that he isn't rigid, he is very fluid and can move.

Just watch this:
<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/V4-1e6Faglw&hl=en_US&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/V4-1e6Faglw&hl=en_US&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

Of course that doesn't translate to the field, but the point I'm trying to make is that JPP is EXTREMELY talented and naturally athletic and some team is going to fall in love with that, if the Bucs don't take him I think the Raiders do.

K Train
02-20-2010, 02:57 PM
yeah thats pretty sick. i mean i like him and selvie alot but i dont think hes the best DE in the country and think hes a little overrated at the position in the early stages so far.

if he runs a 4.4 ill be really impressed

GoRavens
02-20-2010, 03:00 PM
[QUOTE=Thumper;2024792]
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that's straight insane.
Gotta love his athleticism & the fact that he can play OLB in a 3-4, or DE in a 4-3. I see him going in the top 20 for sure.

superman
02-20-2010, 03:27 PM
when it's already out who a team wants this early on, it's usually not true

descendency
02-20-2010, 03:28 PM
I'd take JPP over Dez Bryant or Eric Berry even though I am not sold on JPP as a DE. Actually, I'd take Joe Haden over Berry or Bryant.

I just don't think a FS or a WR is all that important. a shut down CB like Darrelle Revis or a pass rusher like Demarcus Ware is far more important than a Calvin Johnson (lol, Bryant isn't even close to him) or an Ed Reed.

superman
02-20-2010, 03:36 PM
again, the lack of talent at the wr position and young qb for the bucs will be a bigger factor than most teams who would be choosing between berry, haden, jp, bryant, etc

Complex
02-20-2010, 03:36 PM
I'd take JPP over Dez Bryant or Eric Berry even though I am not sold on JPP as a DE. Actually, I'd take Joe Haden over Berry or Bryant.
I just don't think a FS or a WR is all that important. a shut down CB like Darrelle Revis or a pass rusher like Demarcus Ware is far more important than a Calvin Johnson (lol, Bryant isn't even close to him) or an Ed Reed.

Haden over Berry lmao are you high? Haden is so overrated he is just benefiting from a weak CB class. I was watching the NFL Network and they were talking about Eric Berry moving corner in the NFL and that he would still be a top 5 pick.

Thumper
02-20-2010, 03:37 PM
again, the lack of talent at the wr position and young qb for the bucs will be a bigger factor than most teams who would be choosing between berry, haden, jp, bryant, etc

Well to be honest, they don't have much of a pass rush either so... they need a pass rusher as well.

descendency
02-20-2010, 03:52 PM
Haden over Berry lmao are you high? Haden is so overrated he is just benefiting from a weak CB class. I was watching the NFL Network and they were talking about Eric Berry moving corner in the NFL and that he would still be a top 5 pick.

I'm not confident in Berry at CB. But if the coach thinks berry can play CB in the NFL at a high level, then I'd take him over Haden.

My point is that positional value is far more important than talent. I mean, if there is a huge disparity between talents, then you have to make the pick, but there isn't in the top 5.

RaiderNation
02-20-2010, 04:03 PM
I believe as of right now its either a DT or Bryant.

Saints-Tigers
02-20-2010, 04:05 PM
I'd rather an elite safety over an elite corner to be honest anyway. Taking one receiver out of a game has become completely overrated, especially when the top teams have so many weapons.

Someone like Ed Reed that can pick off double digit passes and be near virtually every play and take away the deep middle is much better than isolating a receiver and eliminating him.

K Train
02-20-2010, 04:35 PM
while i do believe haden is this years top corner hes not an elite prospect like some of the recent years top guys like revis, newman, pacman, maybe leodis.

i honestly do believe berry would be the best corner this year too

George Lippard
02-20-2010, 04:36 PM
I'd rather an elite safety over an elite corner to be honest anyway. Taking one receiver out of a game has become completely overrated, especially when the top teams have so many weapons.

Someone like Ed Reed that can pick off double digit passes and be near virtually every play and take away the deep middle is much better than isolating a receiver and eliminating him.

Plus, Berry could double as an elite corner if need be.

descendency
02-20-2010, 04:51 PM
Plus, Berry could double as an elite corner if need be.

How much game film have you seen him play CB?

George Lippard
02-20-2010, 04:59 PM
How much game film have you seen him play CB?

four, maybe five hundred hours.

Saints-Tigers
02-20-2010, 05:00 PM
How much game film have you seen him play CB?

Berry played a lot of CB this year, the Florida game comes to mind.

descendency
02-20-2010, 05:01 PM
four, maybe five hundred hours.

Did I miss something? I thought he played safety at Tennessee.

Paranoidmoonduck
02-20-2010, 05:18 PM
Berry sliding into the nickel corner position for the Vols was not a particularly rare situation from what I've seen of Tennessee football the last couple seasons (not to mention Berry played cb in high school).

I've always been of the opinion that Berry's best position on a great many NFL defenses would be to make the shift back to cb. I just think he has more potential there overall.

George Lippard
02-20-2010, 05:22 PM
Berry sliding into the nickel corner position for the Vols was not a particularly rare situation from what I've seen of Tennessee football the last couple seasons (not to mention Berry played cb in high school).

I've always been of the opinion that Berry's best position on a great many NFL defenses would be to make the shift back to cb. I just think he has more potential there overall.

^^^

The best (or 2nd best) talent evaluator on the site has spoken.

Berry to corner doubters be gone.

Supporting Caste
02-20-2010, 09:46 PM
I really don't see how Bryant is anywhere near a top 10 pick.

ThePudge
02-20-2010, 09:53 PM
I really don't see how Bryant is anywhere near a top 10 pick.

And what attributes would you say he lacks? What would you look for, where are his deficiencies? I'm not trying to nail you here, just wondering why you think Bryant should be picked more 15-25 than 5-15.

Supporting Caste
02-20-2010, 09:57 PM
It's a issue of relativity really--I just don't see how he's anywhere near the prospect that other guys who have gone top 10 in recent years were (outside of DHB).

I really like Bryant, but he looks like the kind of guy I'd expect to see in the 20s. I think he's more of a Dwayne Bowe than an Andre Johnson.

More specifically, I don't see a great deal of athleticism with him. The fundamentals are there, and I love his ability to fight for the ball, but I just don't see the grounds for calling him an elite prospect.

MichaelJordanEberle (sabf)
02-20-2010, 09:57 PM
I really don't see how Bryant is anywhere near a top 10 pick.
I don't know if I would go that far, but I agree. I mean, he's certainly a very explosive playmaker, but for a receiver to go top 5, and certainly top 3, he has to have a certain oomph. He can't be a guy that comes around every couple years. An Andre Johnson, a Calvin Johnson. Top 5 picks at WR since 2000: Peter Warrick, Charles Rogers, Andre Johnson, Larry Fitzgerald, Braylon Edwards, Calvin Johnson.

Obviously, Warrick and Rogers were epic busts, Braylon has hands problems. But from what I remember of Rogers, he was damn good his first couple of years before getting hurt(by that I mean for a couple of quarters, maybe a game or two), and then got into marijuana. Edwards, when he's on, we all know what he's capable of. Fitz, Andre and Megatron are 3 top 5 receivers in the NFL.

Does Dez Bryant REALLY belong on that list?

ThePudge
02-20-2010, 10:04 PM
It's a issue of relativity really--I just don't see how he's anywhere near the prospect that other guys who have gone top 10 in recent years were (outside of DHB).

I really like Bryant, but he looks like the kind of guy I'd expect to see in the 20s. I think he's more of a Dwayne Bowe than an Andre Johnson.

I'm going to disagree there. Speaking relatively, I think Dez Bryant is a better prospect than Michael Crabtree. Though he was drafted 10th Overall, there could be legitimate claim made that he'd have been a Top 5 pick had he carried himself in a more mature manner in the months leading up to the draft.

What separates Bryant from other receivers his size (like Crabtree) are his feet and his acceleration with the ball. His feet are very nimble and quick in a phone booth and he's just a very sudden athlete. He beats the jam well with both his feet, his explosiveness, and his hands. His ability to run after the catch is rare, as he combines acceleration with power, elusiveness, and home run speed. He's terrific when the ball is in the air with outstanding body control, leaping ability, and concentration. He's a thick, athletically built guy who isn't fazed by making a tough catch in traffic and runs with physicality after the catch.

He simply looks like he's at a completely different level on the field and he didn't need a gimmicky spread offense and a Quarterback making 50 throws a game to put up his gaudy numbers. I think he has the potential to be one of the best receivers in the league a few years down the line and should contribute/produce immediately.

SenorGato
02-21-2010, 03:25 PM
Man I really wish the Jets had a shot at Dez Bryant...W/e...shoot for Jonathan Baldwin in 2011.

FlyingElvis
02-22-2010, 09:40 AM
There are a few posts responding to my Bryant / Spikes post and all I can say is . . . oops. I thought I was replying to a McClain / Tate post, hence me saying Bryant / Spikes would be better - which it would.

But that wasn't said at all so please accept my mea culpa, and know that it is far more sincere than Tiger's. Especially V-I-P since I quoted and responded to your post.

LizardState
02-22-2010, 08:08 PM
I'm going to disagree there. Speaking relatively, I think Dez Bryant is a better prospect than Michael Crabtree.

Have to agree, Bryant a better natural NFL WR ----- Crabtree is bigger but slower, kind of b-ballerish, very young & raw talent who came young into the NFL & held out until October to play as a rookie, kind of the postponed Next Great WR who needs to adapt to the NFL this yr. He could be the next truly great 9er receiver though with the right set of circumstances .....

Bryant could have been the record-setting dominant receiver at this draft but he got his ass in a crack too early. He talked to an agent before he should or could have I think, & will have to do a fall on my sword kinda come to jesus thing in those Combine interviews b/c if you get thrown off the team.... well, I guess he has to have some answers for it. And it compromises his position in being able to negotiate the top pick WR this draft.

V.I.P
02-22-2010, 09:54 PM
There are a few posts responding to my Bryant / Spikes post and all I can say is . . . oops. I thought I was replying to a McClain / Tate post, hence me saying Bryant / Spikes would be better - which it would.

But that wasn't said at all so please accept my mea culpa, and know that it is far more sincere than Tiger's. Especially V-I-P since I quoted and responded to your post.

No prob man.

RWills
02-23-2010, 12:54 PM
Mike Mayock said that Bryant is top 5 talent, Combine should decide where he ends up, Bryant to Tampa isnt that far off

RWills
02-24-2010, 09:43 PM
Read something on Rotoworld about Bryant being overweight, combine should be interesting

bitonti
02-25-2010, 11:02 AM
dez bryant might be the most overrated player in the nation right now

first off no one knows what he will run... if it's in the 4.6 area at 220, forget about an elite pick, cause there will be guys like Brandon Graham running 4.6s at 260.

and dont tell me that crabtree didn't run either cause Crabtree had 27 touchdowns in his true freshman year. Bryant doesnt even have close to that level of production.

also he missed a ton of football for lying about his dinner with Deion. whatever the reason, getting suspended hurts his value with most teams. Bone head teams like the bengals and raiders wont care but most teams care.

in short he's a good but not great prospect, and should be drafted closer to 20 overall than 2 overall.

superman
02-25-2010, 11:44 AM
dez bryant might be the most overrated player in the nation right now

first off no one knows what he will run... if it's in the 4.6 area at 220, forget about an elite pick, cause there will be guys like Brandon Graham running 4.6s at 260.

and dont tell me that crabtree didn't run either cause Crabtree had 27 touchdowns in his true freshman year. Bryant doesnt even have close to that level of production.

also he missed a ton of football for lying about his dinner with Deion. whatever the reason, getting suspended hurts his value with most teams. Bone head teams like the bengals and raiders wont care but most teams care.

in short he's a good but not great prospect, and should be drafted closer to 20 overall than 2 overall.

a) crabtree wasn't a true fr. he was in his 2nd yr.

b) dez had 19 in his 2nd year of college also. in 47 less receptions on a team that isn't as pass heavy. so that's pretty impressive also. not taking anything away from crabtree, i like him.

SenorGato
02-25-2010, 11:44 AM
dez bryant might be the most overrated player in the nation right now


Nope, that easily goes to Jason Pierre Paul.

first off no one knows what he will run... if it's in the 4.6 area at 220, forget about an elite pick, cause there will be guys like Brandon Graham running 4.6s at 260.


He's not running a 4.6 bit. They said the same crap about Crabtree....Even if he does, anybody who actually cares just might not like him at all. He has "football speed" either way...but even then I see him running in the 4.4s.

and dont tell me that crabtree didn't run either cause Crabtree had 27 touchdowns in his true freshman year. Bryant doesnt even have close to that level of production.


Texas Tech passing game >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> OkSU

Bryant threw up 1480 and 19 his sophomore year, and this year put up 323/4 in THREE friggin games.

also he missed a ton of football for lying about his dinner with Deion. whatever the reason, getting suspended hurts his value with most teams. Bone head teams like the bengals and raiders wont care but most teams care.


The suspension won't hurt anything...Everyone and their mother knows thats BS. A high end NFL prospect talking to an NFL player about life and business in the NFL is not going to hurt his stock with NFL teams. College is supposed to prepare you for your future career...Not suspend you because you're ready for it now. Bryant could have played in the NFL this year IMO and looked OK...

in short he's a good but not great prospect, and should be drafted closer to 20 overall than 2 overall.

He's a better prospect than Crabtree, and will be drafted as such. He's bigger, heavier, faster, just as mean fighting for the ball...Top 5 talent, easily.

bitonti
02-25-2010, 11:48 AM
basing this 4.4 number on what? he supposedly ran a 4.58 at last year's pro day.

superman
02-25-2010, 11:52 AM
personally, i think he'll run a 4.5. won't hurt him.

SenorGato
02-25-2010, 11:53 AM
basing this 4.4 number on what? he supposedly ran a 4.58 at last year's pro day.

Basing it on the fact that he's been training for the combine since October or so...And that he's a beast.

Even if he runs a 4.5...won't hurt him. Not one bit imo...In a case like this where a prospect is clearly above his peers, nobody cares about the 40 time. He's not going to hit 4.6 or lower anyway...Just like Crabtree, except he'll be running...and he'll be bigger.

bitonti
02-25-2010, 11:54 AM
we shall see... if he runs a 4.3 or 4.4 i eat crow... if he runs a 4.5 or 4.6 he's not worth an elite pick. you can't take a WR who runs 4.6 in the top 10 when there are linebackers who will run 4.6.

SenorGato
02-25-2010, 11:56 AM
we shall see... if he runs a 4.3 or 4.4 i eat crow... if he runs a 4.5 or 4.6 he's not worth an elite pick. you can't take a WR who runs 4.6 in the top 10 when there are linebackers who will run 4.6.

What's so bad about a 4.5 anyway?

And come on man...you know there's 0 chance in hell he runs a 4.6.

superman
02-25-2010, 11:57 AM
we shall see... if he runs a 4.3 or 4.4 i eat crow... if he runs a 4.5 or 4.6 he's not worth an elite pick. you can't take a WR who runs 4.6 in the top 10 when there are linebackers who will run 4.6.

so is 4.5 worth an elite pick? i think so. crabtree would have run that, at best.

Bucs4242
02-25-2010, 11:58 AM
As a diehard Bucs fan, I'm hoping Dez Bryant is seriously considered if the 2 DTs are gone

bitonti
02-25-2010, 11:59 AM
What's so bad about a 4.5 anyway?

And come on man...you know there's 0 chance in hell he runs a 4.6.

if he ran a 4.58 at pro day last year a 4.6 is far more likely than a 4.4

Im not saying that he's not a good player but to go 3 overall you need to have elite measurables.

SenorGato
02-25-2010, 12:03 PM
if he ran a 4.58 at pro day last year a 4.6 is far more likely than a 4.4

Im not saying that he's not a good player but to go 3 overall you need to have elite measurables.

That's just terrible, terrible logic. I think you're a smart guy obviously and I really respect your opinion, so it stuns me to see such poor logic being used.

How is a guy who's been training to become a pro athlete...in the NFL at that...going to run slower than he did a year ago? When he's in his best pre-prime developmental years? You REALLY buy what you're saying there?

A 6'2 220 WR with long arms is elite measurables bit...thrown in dominant film and a strong psychological profile (for a WR, who differ from other positions) you have everything you need in a top WR.

bitonti
02-25-2010, 12:06 PM
That's just terrible, terrible logic. I think you're a smart guy obviously and I really respect your opinion, so it stuns me to see such poor logic being used.

How is a guy who's been training to become a pro athlete...in the NFL at that...going to run slower than he did a year ago? When he's in his best pre-prime developmental years? You REALLY buy what you're saying there?

A 6'2 220 WR with long arms is elite measurables bit...thrown in dominant film, a strong psychological profile (for a WR, who differ from other positions), a vicious attitude and you have an elite NFL prospect.

Gato it happens every year... players run a certain time as a junior then run a slower time as a senior. If he's overweight and slow that's bad. If he's lean and fast that's good.

either way we shall see. If he runs that 4.3 or 4.4 then I will happily come back to this thread and admit I was dead wrong. I have nothing against Bryant the prospect but the value should be right. Long arms and dominant film isn't the same as running fast. first round WR need to run like WR not like LB. even if we are talking about Jerry Rice, he wasn't a top 5 pick either.

SenorGato
02-25-2010, 12:09 PM
Gato it happens every year... players run a certain time as a junior then run a slower time as a senior. If he's overweight and slow that's bad. If he's lean and fast that's good.


Yes, but we're talking about an individual here, not hypothetical players.

either way we shall see. If he runs that 4.3 or 4.4 then I will happily come back to this thread and admit I was dead wrong. I have nothing against Bryant the prospect but the value should be right. Long arms and dominant film isn't the same as running fast. first round WR need to run like WR not like LB. even if we are talking about Jerry Rice, he wasn't a top 5 pick either.

It's better.

And lets face it, Bryant's a bigger and better athlete than Jerry Rice. The chances of this kid touch a 4.6 are as close to zip as it gets...Not to mention that Rice ran his 4.6 in the 80's without 4-5 months of modern training specifically for the combine and league.

GoRavens
02-25-2010, 12:10 PM
Nope, that easily goes to Jason Pierre Paul.


the most overrated prospect I've ever seen in my entire life.

Bucs4242
02-25-2010, 12:11 PM
Here's the arguments to be made for the BUcs if McCoy and Suh are gone

Berry

Pros: drafting Berry gives TB 3/4 of an absolutely dominant secondary. Finding an eventual replacement for Ronde will be the only spot left to fill for the forseeable future

Cons: Is #3 too high for ANY safety? Is it even necessary to draft a safety in the 1st round in the Tampa 2. History suggests this wouldnt be the best value pick for a team like Tampa




Bryant

Pros: The BUcs will have arguably the worst group of WRs in the NFL when Antonio Bryant walks in FA. Coach Morris wants to surround his boy Freeman with weapons. IMO there is no argument to be made for why Dez Bryant isn't a top 5 talent in almost any draft

Cons: The Bucs defense is in dire need of DL/pass rush help




McClain

Pros: absolute stud LB for the 4-3. Would give the BUcs a VERY talented young group of LBers with the established Ruud, rising star Hayes, and a guy who would provide stiff competition for the SLB position in McClains first year in Black

Cons: LBer is not a top need. The BUcs have a solid group of LBers already. With arguably the worst DL and WR groups in the NFL, it may be difficult to justify this pick over others that are on the board.

Bucs4242
02-25-2010, 12:14 PM
if he ran a 4.58 at pro day last year a 4.6 is far more likely than a 4.4

Im not saying that he's not a good player but to go 3 overall you need to have elite measurables.


Im not a big follower of Bryant, Im from the south and I like ACC football, but I think 87 rec 1500 yards and 19 TDs measures up just fine


You are kidding yourself if you think a complete WR like Bryant couldnt go that high.


IN fact, his suspension may be the only thing that keeps him from going that high

SenorGato
02-25-2010, 12:15 PM
^^^ I love McClain as a prospect, but I don't see him going even in the top 10. MLB's just don't do that....

bitonti
02-25-2010, 12:33 PM
You are kidding yourself if you think a complete WR like Bryant couldnt go that high.


thats my problem... if he doesn't run fast he's not really a complete WR. a slow time makes him a possession guy.

P-L
02-25-2010, 03:19 PM
Define "complete" receiver. In my opinion someone who doesn't run good routes, isn't much of a deep threat, and struggles against zone coverage isn't a complete receiver. If I am taking a receiver at #3 (which I'm not, because they aren't valuable enough to take that high) then he better not have some of the questions that Bryant has.

Also, just because Bryant is a better prospect than Crabtree shouldn't make him a top ten lock. This year's draft is much stronger than last year's overall. Most people consider Patrick Willis a better prospect than Aaron Curry, but Willis went seven spots lower in a stronger draft.

Bryant deserves to be a top ten pick in this year's draft, but you can't compare his draft stock to Crabtree's. I'd be willing to bet that Crabtree wouldn't be a top ten in this year's draft.

ThePudge
02-25-2010, 03:46 PM
Define "complete" receiver. In my opinion someone who doesn't run good routes, isn't much of a deep threat, and struggles against zone coverage isn't a complete receiver. If I am taking a receiver at #3 (which I'm not, because they aren't valuable enough to take that high) then he better not have some of the questions that Bryant has.

I'm trying to determine whether you are talking about the same Dez Bryant here that is very sudden, explosive, and has remarkable feet for his size. He's raw running routes as a result of only playing two full college seasons, though never has he been a poor route runner. He has run a complete route tree due to his college offense and shows the ability to beat the jam, cut & stop on a dime. He needs reps, I'll say that, but that's not a huge concern of mine considering the kind of effort and athleticism he offers. 17.4 yard average the past two seasons doesn't strike me as a guy that has trouble getting behind defenses, not to mention he had 6 Td receptions over 35 yards in 2008, establishing himself as a threat in the short, the intermediate, and the deep game. He played in a more pro-style offense and developed well as a run-blocker and a guy that can work both the hash and the middle of the field.

I don't think he ends up in the Top 5 necessarily because of the teams we are looking at, but I think he has the talent to warrant such a selection. If Eric Berry is gone at 7, I'd imagine the Browns would select him over Joe Haden and I don't think he'll get past the Broncos. Still, I think whether he's drafted 3-5 or 11-15 Bryant stands a good chance of developing into a star receiver at the next level. He is an immense natural talent that was really ready to shine a second year in a row. Without a doubt in my mind I'd take him before Crabtree and I have a tough time imagining he'd have gotten out of the Top 5 in last year's draft.

ThePudge
02-25-2010, 03:47 PM
thats my problem... if he doesn't run fast he's not really a complete WR. a slow time makes him a possession guy.

What makes you think he's slow? What have you been reading?

no bare feet
02-25-2010, 04:51 PM
I don't know how I feel about his nickname but he is my favorite overall prospect in this draft.

Bucs4242
02-26-2010, 12:40 AM
thats my problem... if he doesn't run fast he's not really a complete WR. a slow time makes him a possession guy.




LMAO, so if there was a horseshoe competition at the combine and Bryant didnt come in 1st place would that not make him complete?

Track stars run track, football players play football

18 ypc, I think he can run

Bucs4242
02-26-2010, 12:45 AM
^^^ I love McClain as a prospect, but I don't see him going even in the top 10. MLB's just don't do that....


What about AJ Hawk, Aaron Curry, Keith Rivers, and Jerod Mayo? All top 10 picks


WOuld you take Patrick WIllis and Brian Cushing in the top 10 NOW?

How about Jon Beason? Lawrence TImmons?




You are sort of right, and McClain might fall to around 15, buut if you look at it top rated LBers are as sure of things as any position in recent drafts

Bucs4242
02-26-2010, 12:49 AM
Another question for those who think he isnt deserving of going that high, or that WRs shouldnt go that high....

should safeties go that high? Guess that counts Eric Berry out

Is Jason Pierre- Paul really a higher rated prospect than Bryant? Im a diehard USF fan and I say no

How about Okung?


If McCoy and Suh are gone, and QB isnt an option for Tampa, then who exactly is the clear pick over Bryant? The only guys I can think of is McClain or Spiller

Clarkw267
02-26-2010, 12:53 AM
Define "complete" receiver. In my opinion someone who doesn't run good routes, isn't much of a deep threat, and struggles against zone coverage isn't a complete receiver. If I am taking a receiver at #3 (which I'm not, because they aren't valuable enough to take that high) then he better not have some of the questions that Bryant has.

Also, just because Bryant is a better prospect than Crabtree shouldn't make him a top ten lock. This year's draft is much stronger than last year's overall. Most people consider Patrick Willis a better prospect than Aaron Curry, but Willis went seven spots lower in a stronger draft.

Bryant deserves to be a top ten pick in this year's draft, but you can't compare his draft stock to Crabtree's. I'd be willing to bet that Crabtree wouldn't be a top ten in this year's draft.

Honestly where do some of you get this from? Not much of a deep threat??

Receivers aren't valuable enough to go #3??

Wow.

SenorGato
02-26-2010, 06:11 AM
What about AJ Hawk, Aaron Curry, Keith Rivers, and Jerod Mayo? All top 10 picks


WOuld you take Patrick WIllis and Brian Cushing in the top 10 NOW?

How about Jon Beason? Lawrence TImmons?




You are sort of right, and McClain might fall to around 15, buut if you look at it top rated LBers are as sure of things as any position in recent drafts

If McClain works out extremely well he'll go in the top 10...probably to the Browns unless the Chiefs bite first.

That said, the only one I'd take is Willis in the top 10 now...the rest are good players but eh...not top 10.

bitonti
02-26-2010, 08:47 AM
What makes you think he's slow? What have you been reading?

the last time he ran the 40 was last year at the okla pro day and it was a 4.58. that's not a columnist that's a fact. obviously a guy can run that and be a great pro WR but he's not going to be a top 5 or even top 10 pick.

superman
02-26-2010, 09:10 AM
if the bucs were planning on taking him as high as 3, a 4.5 wouldn't stop them. if anything, crabtree having the speed concerns, then coming in late and doing so well will help bryant. bryant is a better prospect.

and unless he's a ******, he should have been training for this combine all year not playing. if he runs a 4.6, work ethic should be questions more than speed.

SenorGato
02-26-2010, 11:34 AM
the last time he ran the 40 was last year at the okla pro day and it was a 4.58. that's not a columnist that's a fact. obviously a guy can run that and be a great pro WR but he's not going to be a top 5 or even top 10 pick.

Last year...Throw a year of natural development in...then 6 months of working out. I still think you're dead wrong on this one.

http://www.nfl.com/combine/story?id=09000d5d81692755&template=with-video-with-comments&confirm=true

Mayock calls him a top 5 pick.

ThePudge
02-26-2010, 11:50 AM
the last time he ran the 40 was last year at the okla pro day and it was a 4.58. that's not a columnist that's a fact. obviously a guy can run that and be a great pro WR but he's not going to be a top 5 or even top 10 pick.

The way things are starting to shake out in the top 5 with Tampa Bay looking mostly defense (Suh/McCoy/JPP), Washington looking OT/QB or even perhaps defense to build their 3-4, and Kansas City looking like they're targeting an Offensive Lineman with that first pick, the odds of Dez Bryant going that high aren't great.

That doesn't mean he doesn't deserve to or doesn't have the talent to do so. He's not Calvin or Andre Johnson, but he's close to where Larry Fitzgerald was as a prospect to me and well ahead of Texas Tech's Michael Crabtree from a year ago. In the Top 10, Bryant could tempt Cleveland at 7 if Eric Berry is off the board and he could also be looking at wearing a Denver Broncos or Miami Dolphins uniform (10* or 12).

Watch him play and 4.58 certainly sounds strange because his game film & playing speed indicate sub 4.5 speed. We'll see what he can pull here with half a year of 40 Yd Dash practice under his belt and at 225.

superman
02-26-2010, 05:10 PM
tweaked a hamstring and won't work out

not a good sign

Saints-Tigers
02-26-2010, 06:23 PM
lets not overrate how highly rated a prospect Johnson was. Dez Bryant looks like a better deep threat on film, and Andre was no Calvin Johnson, he was the second best receiver in his class, and Larry was higher rated IMO.

SenorGato
02-26-2010, 06:57 PM
lets not overrate how highly rated a prospect Johnson was. Dez Bryant looks like a better deep threat on film, and Andre was no Calvin Johnson, he was the second best receiver in his class, and Larry was higher rated IMO.

AJ was rated high enough to go 3rd overall, and the Texans absolutely refused to trade the #3 pick to the Jets for us to take him. We ended up with Robertson instead...which woulda/coulda/shoulda been fine but it wasn't.

Saints-Tigers
02-26-2010, 08:09 PM
Don't get me wrong, he was a beastly prospect, and normally I wouldn't even pick it out (and I wasn't picking with Pudge), I just feel like he's become extremely overrated as a prospect, because he absolutely wasn't on Calvin's level, and people say he was.

To be honest though, I'm not sure Andre always plays up to his game speed, but he might play even stronger than his size, and his hands are amazing.

Bryant looks like a legit deep ball and jump ball guy, speed be damned.