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V.I.P
02-21-2010, 01:16 PM
During the season this guy had a third round grade at best. Now all of a sudden his stock is rising like crazy. From top 10 to top 3.

I have two questions:

1. What makes him better than guys like Derrick Morgan, and Brandon Graham?

2. What are you basing this on production or potential?

RaiderNation
02-21-2010, 01:17 PM
Another JPP thread?

superman
02-21-2010, 01:19 PM
he reminds me of gaines adams. and i couldn't understand why he went so high either.

RaiderNation
02-21-2010, 01:19 PM
1. What makes him better than guys like Derrick Morgan, and Brandon Graham?
He will perform better at the combine and his game film is very good.

2. What you basing this on production or potential?
Combination of both. His stats arent eye opening, but his game film is. He gets to the QB and is also solid against the run. Hes been playing football for only 5 years and can only get better.

V.I.P
02-21-2010, 01:28 PM
he reminds me of gaines adams. and i couldn't understand why he went so high either.

My exact thoughts....

R.I.P Gaines Adams

superman
02-21-2010, 01:28 PM
when i saw this thread i thought you meant #1 to Detroit

ThePudge
02-21-2010, 01:30 PM
He will perform better at the combine and his game film is very good.


Combination of both. His stats arent eye opening, but his game film is. He gets to the QB and is also solid against the run. Hes been playing football for only 5 years and can only get better.

His game film is far worse than Graham's and Morgan's. It's not close really. JPP played better on film than his stats would have you believe, but let's get real, he certainly didn't play at an All-American level like the other DEs in this class. He gets into the Top 10, Top 5 conversation because of his unbelievable physical tools and his upside. He was a good player on the field, very disruptive at times, but his game film isn't close to some other DEs in this class. He'll need to put in major work at the next level to achieve his potential, but he possesses a very premium frame and athletic ability as a pass-rusher.

I'm not going to say he can only get better, because he is a risky pick, there's a chance he won't improve much and then he'll be known as the next Top 10 DE bust. He's not the sharpest tool in the shed, but as long as there is a passion there for the game of football, and a strong work-ethic you could be looking at a future Pro-Bowler. The sky is the limit, but he's not even close yet...

ThePudge
02-21-2010, 01:30 PM
when i saw this thread i thought you meant #1 to Detroit

St. Louis? (10 char.)

superman
02-21-2010, 01:33 PM
St. Louis? (10 char.)

yeah idk where my mind went. still in last year mode.

dolphinfan2k5
02-21-2010, 01:34 PM
Possibly because De -> Detroit

superman8456
02-21-2010, 01:36 PM
He will perform better at the combine and his game film is very good.


Combination of both. His stats arent eye opening, but his game film is. He gets to the QB and is also solid against the run. Hes been playing football for only 5 years and can only get better.

His game film isn't that good. I think you're overrating him, like most.

superman
02-21-2010, 01:46 PM
let's say he runs a 4.6 at the combine/pro day, which is very good for his size but not the freak status everybody is talking about. does top 5 talk stop?

ThePudge
02-21-2010, 01:49 PM
let's say he runs a 4.6 at the combine/pro day, which is very good for his size but not the freak status everybody is talking about. does top 5 talk stop?

Probably not, the length he possesses is probably his freakiest trait projecting to the next level. He just has rare length and ability for a pass-rusher, so if he runs a 4.6 I'd imagine Top 3-5 talk will persist. I don't know that there's any way I'd consider him a Top 5 value though, and he deserves to be selected between 6th and 10th Overall.

superman
02-21-2010, 01:53 PM
i didn't watch usf this year so i didn't see if he was double teamed. but didn't playing opposite of selvie make him look better than he is?

ThePudge
02-21-2010, 01:58 PM
i didn't watch usf this year so i didn't see if he was double teamed. but didn't playing opposite of selvie make him look better than he is?

Not really, he garnished just as much if not more attention than Selvie in 2009. George Selvie really isn't that good. He didn't battle many double teams, but it's a great inconvenience to double team ends in college because of the spread offense that doesn't typically feature blocking TEs or pass-blocking RBs. His statistics, if anything, don't give him all the credit he deserves. He was USF's impact defender.

Complex
02-21-2010, 01:59 PM
I believe that JPP will be the best DE maybe the best D-line men in this draft(behind Suh), I believe the hype.

V.I.P
02-21-2010, 02:03 PM
I believe that JPP will be the best DE maybe the best D-line men in this draft(behind Suh), I believe the hype.

As i bookmark this thread, I plan on putting this quote as my sig 2 years from now. :D

SenorGato
02-21-2010, 03:23 PM
What did this guy even do to get the hype he's getting?

I'll admit that he stood out when I watched USF this year, and he's got the measurables...but top 10? Really? Vernon f'ing Gholston was a better prospect.

ThePudge
02-21-2010, 03:26 PM
What did this guy even do to get the hype he's getting?

I'll admit that he stood out when I watched USF this year, and he's got the measurables...but top 10? Really? Vernon f'ing Gholston was a better prospect.

Yes, I agree Vernon was a much better college DE than Pierre-Paul and physical specimen in his own right. However, JPP's measurables make Gholston look like Elvis Dumervil. Few players have ever had his combination of length, strength, and speed. Extremely athletic, freaky height/arm combination, and it has shown on the field.

Addict
02-21-2010, 03:27 PM
What did this guy even do to get the hype he's getting?

I'll admit that he stood out when I watched USF this year, and he's got the measurables...but top 10? Really? Vernon f'ing Gholston was a better prospect.

be potentially fast. And big. And have potential. That's his resume right there, potentially anyway.

superman
02-21-2010, 03:29 PM
be potentially fast. And big. And have potential. That's his resume right there, potentially anyway.

sounds like the nba draft

SenorGato
02-21-2010, 03:34 PM
be potentially fast. And big. And have potential. That's his resume right there, potentially anyway.

Greg Hardy, Brandon Graham...hell, Lindsey Witten >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> JPP

ThePudge
02-21-2010, 03:41 PM
Greg Hardy, Brandon Graham...hell, Lindsey Witten >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> JPP

Look at the players you listed... assume their 40 time/Combine results...

Greg Hardy - 6037 279 - 4.82e
Brandon Graham - 6010 263 - 4.70e
Lindsey Witten - 6043 248 - 4.77e
Jason Pierre-Paul - 6057e 264e - 4.54e

it makes a difference

Malaka
02-21-2010, 04:54 PM
I am still having a hard time figuring out what makes JPP so much better of a prospect than Michael Johnson... he's faster?...

ThePudge
02-21-2010, 04:59 PM
I am still having a hard time figuring out what makes JPP so much better of a prospect than Michael Johnson... he's faster?...

Longer, better motor, better natural athlete, just a little more active as a whole on game day. He also will flash strength & power at times, though his hand use as a whole could us some coaching up. I'd just say he has a little more room to grow as a player than Johnson just because of his motor-stamina and his fluidity as an athlete? I'd expect him to be faster as well, yes.

SenorGato
02-21-2010, 05:26 PM
Look at the players you listed... assume their 40 time/Combine results...

Greg Hardy - 6037 279 - 4.82e
Brandon Graham - 6010 263 - 4.70e
Lindsey Witten - 6043 248 - 4.77e
Jason Pierre-Paul - 6057e 264e - 4.54e

it makes a difference

Sure, but it doesn't actually improve him as a player.

Maybe if he was a 3rd or 4th round pick....Top 10 has to be a bad joke/part of the flux of the offseason.

FUNBUNCHER
02-21-2010, 05:32 PM
All respect Pudge, but I think there's a little bit of revisionist history going on with the comparisons between MJ and JPP.

Michael Johnson measured over 6'6 at the combine and 266#. He ran a 4.75 and ran in the 4.5s at his GT pro day. MJ was an AA and 1st All ACC his senior year, and had 9 sacks and 17 tfl while playing DE and dropping into coverage often like an OLB while playing extensively on kick coverage.

MJ had no character concerns, is the son of a former Marine, and for some reason scouts questioned his desire and intensity in games IMO because if you notice on film, Johnson had a strange habit of playing off his man almost in pass coverage if he didn't beat an OT with his first or second move; it's like he would pull up instead of relentlessly pursuing to the QB.

JPP also isn't really 'longer' or is a better 'natural athlete' than Michael Johnson.

JPP wasn't asked to play on specials at USF or play off in pass coverage, unlike MJ, who was over-utilized at GT because of his versatility, length, and superior athletic ability.
This may have affected his in game intensity, also the fact he was given much more responsibility in the defensive scheme than JPP was at South Florida.

Remember, there was talk prior to the '09 draft of converting 6'7, 266# MJ to OLB(!!), a la Ted Hendricks.

Sometimes scouting can become an echo chamber and talent evaluators, like interweb draftniks, can get caught up in the hype surrounding a player.

I think JPP is riding the hype-wave because there seems to be so very few prototype 43 DE in this draft and folks would like to elevate one who somewhat resembles one to that lofty status.

I'll say it again, whoever drafts JPP in the top 5 will get burned because he won't even begin to pay off for being picked that high for at least 3-4 years.

If a team suspects this out of JPP, why would you spend a top 5 draft pick on someone who at this point is hardly more than a physical specimen at the position??

ThePudge
02-21-2010, 05:46 PM
All respect Pudge, but I think there's a little bit of revisionist history going on with the comparisons between MJ and JPP.

Michael Johnson measured over 6'6 at the combine and 266#. He ran a 4.75 and ran in the 4.5s at his GT pro day. MJ was an AA and 1st All ACC his senior year, and had 9 sacks and 17 tfl while playing DE and dropping into coverage often like an OLB while playing extensively on kick coverage.

MJ had no character concerns, is the son of a former Marine, and for some reason scouts questioned his desire and intensity in games IMO because if you notice on film, Johnson had a strange habit of playing off his man almost in pass coverage if he didn't beat an OT with his first or second move; it's like he would pull up instead of relentlessly pursuing to the QB.

JPP also isn't really 'longer' or is a better 'natural athlete' than Michael Johnson.

JPP wasn't asked to play on specials at USF or play off in pass coverage, unlike MJ, who was over-utilized at GT because of his versatility, length, and superior athletic ability.
This may have affected his in game intensity, also the fact he was given much more responsibility in the defensive scheme than JPP was at South Florida.

Remember, there was talk prior to the '09 draft of converting 6'7, 266# MJ to OLB(!!), a la Ted Hendricks.

Sometimes scouting can become an echo chamber and talent evaluators, like interweb draftniks, can get caught up in the hype surrounding a player.

I think JPP is riding the hype-wave because there seems to be so very few prototype 43 DE in this draft and folks would like to elevate one who somewhat resembles one to that lofty status.

I'll say it again, whoever drafts JPP in the top 5 will get burned because he won't even begin to pay off for being picked that high for at least 3-4 years.

If a team suspects this out of JPP, why would you spend a top 5 draft pick on someone who at this point is hardly more than a physical specimen at the position??

Right now, I'm not saying Jason Pierre-Paul isn't a mistake in the Top 5, in fact I have him ranked my #3 Defensive End, I'm telling you why he's going to get that consideration. I have stated multiple times I feel the Top 5 (or Top 3) talk is very legitimate, but it would surely be a reach. I would take Dez Bryant if I were Tampa Bay, but it's not about me, analyzing the draft has a lot to do with psychology of a GM and riding that hype train.

I have JPP out of the Top 10 on my Big Board, a fringe Top 15 value. That said, I don't see any scenario in which Pierre-Paul gets past the Jaguars at 10/11 and I think Tampa Bay, Seattle, and especially Oakland would have given him a hard look by then. I liked Michael Johnson a lot, he was on the wrong end of the hype train as a Senior that many pegged as an underachiever. Pierre-Paul has the raw tag on him, though he comes without the underachiever reputation. He was a 4.75 athlete, JPP could be below 4.6. I couldn't find the number unfortunately, but I expect Pierre Paul's arm length to be longer, hence the longer comment (I think he'll measure close to 6057 a full inch shorter than Johnson).

ThePudge
02-21-2010, 05:49 PM
Sure, but it doesn't actually improve him as a player.

Maybe if he was a 3rd or 4th round pick....Top 10 has to be a bad joke/part of the flux of the offseason.

What are you talking about? Of course his size and speed improve him as a player. That's exactly what made him a good college player last year. I don't think he carries much value in the Top 5-10 either, but it's going to happen whether we think he belongs there or not. I don't see how he makes it past Oakland at 8 and Jacksonville at 10*. He's behind Graham and Morgan on my board, but he'll be drafted ahead of them.

SenorGato
02-21-2010, 09:24 PM
What are you talking about? Of course his size and speed improve him as a player. That's exactly what made him a good college player last year. I don't think he carries much value in the Top 5-10 either, but it's going to happen whether we think he belongs there or not.I don't see how he makes it past Oakland at 8 and Jacksonville at 10*.He's behind Graham and Morgan on my board, but he'll be drafted ahead of them.

My issue is that right now they make him as a player...The same that could be said of a high pick like Vernon Gholston, but at least Gholston was setting the sack record at a major college program.

But meh...if a team is that enticed with him in the early half of the first then that just means a better player at 29.

Saints-Tigers
02-21-2010, 09:26 PM
He's the new guy on the scene, if he stayed for another year and didn't produce 17 sacks, he'd get Dunlap'd and MJ'd.

OaklandRaider56
02-21-2010, 09:38 PM
Derrick Morgan's the best DE in this class right now. JPP obviously has more upside, but he's getting to be very over rated.

WCH
02-21-2010, 10:08 PM
http://www.draftcountdown.com/ScoutingReports/DE/Jason-Pierre-Paul.php

One season of major college football. 16.5 TFL and 6.5 sacks.

I'm not a fan of scouting by box-score stats, and I roll my eyes at college football analysts who spend draft day saying "The guy just wins!" and "He caugh 120 passes last year, who cares if he runs a 4.8!" Neverthless, when you have such a highly regarded player who posts such mundane numbers you have to start thinking in terms of Man vs. Myth.

People talk about him being the backfield a lot, and that makes the above statistics even more troubling. When I watch him on film, I see him totally missing a lot of tackles/sacks when he gets into the backfield. Instincts aren't easily gained, and NFL coaches usually aren't spectacular at "coaching a player up" (with some VERY notable, but rare, exceptions) because they're used to having guys who are already very good.

So what I'm wondering is, did USF use him in a way that can explain his 3rd round statistics? Is there some other variable in play? Or are people just crapping themselves because he has really long arms and is featured in a youtube video where he does 13 consecutive backflips?

Clarkw267
02-21-2010, 10:27 PM
Pierre-Paul has the highest ceiling of any player in this draft class IMO. He is extremely raw, but he is an insane athlete for the DE position, and he possesses a good frame and incredible length.

His initial burst and explosion off of the snap might be the quickest I've seen. He gets into the backfield in the blink of an eye. His problem is that he doesn't know what to do when he gets there. He could have easily compiled 15 + sacks this year with improved instincts, and the ability to break down and make a tackle. He also needs to develop his secondary moves to counter when the OT oversteps to protect against the speed rush.

GMs and coaches will see this guy, and think they can coach him into a perennial 14-16 Sack a year guy, and if the coaching sinks in, they might just do that. That's why he's being projected as high as #3.

WCH
02-21-2010, 11:02 PM
His initial burst and explosion off of the snap might be the quickest I've seen. He gets into the backfield in the blink of an eye. His problem is that he doesn't know what to do when he gets there. He could have easily compiled 15 + sacks this year with improved instincts, and the ability to break down and make a tackle.

That's what I find so concerning about him. Instincts are called "instincts" because coaches have little idea of how to teach them. If they did, then they would call it "intelligence." It's mostly read-and-react, and with low-instinct players, the "react" part is lacking. Add to it, the fact that he was frequently lining up at LDE and going against college RT's. Manhandling NCAA RTs doesn't exactly say much about his ability to do the same to NFL LTs.

This video is a little unfair to him, but it shows off the high ceiling, and also the low floor: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tP0rhntrT7I

He beats the OL (the hard part) and then gets juked out of his shoes by average college QBs. I can see why people like him: he can beat his blocker in a fraction of a second and, at times, he flashes snap-count anticipation that's just eerie. But then he just lets up and doesn't make the play.

Software developers have a saying that "real developers ship." The football analogue would be "real players make plays."

superman
02-22-2010, 07:57 AM
wow i didn't even realize he played le, not re. he was going against rt's while selvie went against lt's.

K Train
02-22-2010, 08:07 AM
Selvie is one of my top conversion OLBs, just behind graham, hughes, kindle and gibson

i dont look at JPP as a possible LB

SenorGato
02-22-2010, 08:32 AM
Selvie is one of my top conversion OLBs, just behind graham, hughes, kindle and gibson

i dont look at JPP as a possible LB

I want Selvie to blow up in workouts...extremely good player who's gotten underrated. There's an outside shot he goes DeMarcus Ware at the combine...I'm rooting for him that he does.

K Train
02-22-2010, 08:37 AM
i think selvie went from being wayyy overrated to extremely underrated in just one year. he very well may blow up at the combine.

i think alot of people will be higher on him after the combine and pro days, i dont think he deserves to be in JPPs shadow as far as he is, hes going to open some eyes of his own before draft day, maybe not demarcus ware-like but im saying at least 2 second round

FUNBUNCHER
02-22-2010, 09:12 AM
I think Selvie's best fit is to stay at DE. If JPP learns to keep himself under control once he gets past the LOS and close on the ballcarrier, he 'could' be a star.

DeathbyStat
02-22-2010, 09:22 AM
His game film isn't that good. I think you're overrating him, like most.

I agree, Morgan and Graham to me to make more plays from bell to bell

Scott Wright
02-22-2010, 09:27 AM
Everyone is knocking Jason Pierre-Paul's production but I think 16.5 TFL and 6.5 Sacks is pretty impressive considering it was his first season of Division I ball and he wasn't even a starter all year. When you factor in that along with his rare physical tools it's pretty clear why "JPP" is so highly thought of in league circles and a probable Top 10, maybe even Top 5, overall pick.

DeathbyStat
02-22-2010, 09:30 AM
I bet JPP goes to the Browns or the Raiders

K Train
02-22-2010, 09:32 AM
Everyone is knocking Jason Pierre-Paul's production but I think 16.5 TFL and 6.5 Sacks is pretty impressive considering it was his first season of Division I ball and he wasn't even a starter all year. When you factor in that along with his rare physical tools it's pretty clear why "JPP" is so highly thought of in league circles and a probable Top 10, maybe even Top 5, overall pick.

everyone might be knocking him for that, but everyone loves him because he can do 20 backflips in a row apparently. he looks alot more like a 3rd down pass rusher more than anything to me.

hes an athlete more than a football player, id take graham over him any day and graham is half the athlete, but twice the player.

like ive said before i am a fan of usf, i love selvie but hes buried in the shadow of his workout warrior counterpart

George Lippard
02-22-2010, 09:41 AM
JPP's severe lack of intelligence combined with FUNBUNCHER's post is why he isn't in my top 10.

Scott Wright
02-22-2010, 09:52 AM
JPP's severe lack of intelligence combined with FUNBUNCHER's post is why he isn't in my top 10.

I always laugh at this intelligence stuff with Pierre-Paul. First of all he hasn't even taken any kind of test or anything yet so who knows if he will do poorly or not? There have been PLENTY of JUCO kids who have gone on to successful NFL careers. Even if he does post a bad Wonderlic score the kid is a pass rusher. See quarterback, get quarterback. It's not rocket science.

superman
02-22-2010, 09:54 AM
with a "get to the quarterback" in between those

George Lippard
02-22-2010, 09:56 AM
I always laugh at this intelligence stuff with Pierre-Paul. First of all he hasn't even taken any kind of test or anything yet so who knows if he will do poorly or not? There have been PLENTY of JUCO kids who have gone on to successful NFL careers. Even if he does post a bad Wonderlic score the kid is a pass rusher. See quarterback, get quarterback. It's not rocket science.

The JUCO stuff doesn't bother me, some of the smartest people I know went to JUCO and normally I don't care if the player is a dumb brute, it's a violent sport...but hearing JPP speak is horribly disconcerting.

His odds at becoming technically sound or playing well in coverage (for whatever reason) are long, imo. Others have commented on him lacking instincts...expect him to be overwhelmed.

K Train
02-22-2010, 09:57 AM
i just dont see how people look at him and think hes anything more than a workout warrior one year wonder? you just cant take a 3rd down pass rusher that high, he will get molested in the run game just like those like him before...and hes really not like mario williams or julius peppers like everyone says and even if he was, those guys are somewhat underachievers anyway for what they bring to the table physically

ndbigdave
02-22-2010, 10:03 AM
JPP is an absolute classic example of a boom or bust prospect.

He has the measureables, will be a stud at the combine, and people will keep saying "He has only played for 5 years!" These are all good things, but they keep pointing to my major concern, that JPP is an athlete playing football, not a true football player.

JPP lacks instincts, lacks a "go to" move relying almost exclusively on out running the offensive tackle, he shows almost no technique for tackling, shows almost no run/pass recognition (part of this may be that USF told him to just pin his ears back on every play). Though JPP lacks football instincts, but seems to have terrific timing to get off the snap.

Throw these majors issues into the fact that JPP played - primarily - LDE and had the benefit of Selvie on the other side.

JPP does have a huge upside, and potential does seem to ooze from every pore, but I dont think Id bank my job on him within the top 10.

I think Morgan rates far higher, and personally, I like Dunlap more who has a great blend of size/speed/strength.

K Train
02-22-2010, 10:05 AM
JPP is an absolute classic example of a boom or bust prospect.

He has the measureables, will be a stud at the combine, and people will keep saying "He has only played for 5 years!" These are all good things, but they keep pointing to my major concern, that JPP is an athlete playing football, not a true football player.

JPP lacks instincts, lacks a "go to" move relying almost exclusively on out running the offensive tackle, he shows almost no technique for tackling, shows almost no run/pass recognition (part of this may be that USF told him to just pin his ears back on every play). Though JPP lacks football instincts, but seems to have terrific timing to get off the snap.

Throw these majors issues into the fact that JPP played - primarily - LDE and had the benefit of Selvie on the other side.

JPP does have a huge upside, and potential does seem to ooze from every pore, but I dont think Id bank my job on him within the top 10.

I think Morgan rates far higher, and personally, I like Dunlap more who has a great blend of size/speed/strength.
pretty much all of this is how i feel. not sure about dunlap though

superman
02-22-2010, 10:07 AM
JPP lacks instincts, lacks a "go to" move relying almost exclusively on out running the offensive tackle,

Throw these majors issues into the fact that JPP played - primarily - LDE and had the benefit of Selvie on the other side.



combined these because yes, it was only running by right tackles mostly at that

ThePudge
02-22-2010, 10:15 AM
everyone might be knocking him for that, but everyone loves him because he can do 20 backflips in a row apparently. he looks alot more like a 3rd down pass rusher more than anything to me.

hes an athlete more than a football player, id take graham over him any day and graham is half the athlete, but twice the player.

like ive said before i am a fan of usf, i love selvie but hes buried in the shadow of his workout warrior counterpart

I'm not saying I disagree with the bulk of your post, but ask any South Florida fan/viewer (or opposing coach if that were possible) who the more dangerous end was this past year. Pierre-Paul was in the backfield more, he was in the Quarterback's face more, and he was even more of a force against the run. In only one year he made quite a large impact and not all of it can be shown in statistics. He has a lot of work to do, technically and in the film room, to reach his potential; however, his ceiling as high as any DE (Peppers/Williams) and his name will be called very early on draft day.

Though once an elite pass-rusher at the college level, Selvie never regained his explosiveness and gradually fell off the map after opposing Offensive Coordinators knew who he was. His name has stayed, but his production worsened every year after his Sophomore campaign and that 31.5 TFL year is an afterthought. There's not a whole lot of fluidity in his movement, he lacks a lot of bulk/muscle mass, and he lacks the explosiveness off the snap need to be taken seriously as a 4-3 DE or 3-4 DE prospect. I look at the Junior & Senior tape and I just don't see anything close to a top prospect, without his Soph. film we'd be talking about a late round guy. We'll see how he tests at the Combine, but I'm not expecting anything too wild. He's smaller (less bulk/height/length), slower, & less athletic than his teammate who rightly overshadows him today and did last season. George is a 5th Round guy to me, but Indy will be a great tool in determining his long-term position/potential.

Pierre-Paul's actually got the look of a good football player with all the physical ability in the world and more than an adequate motor. His only season would have been Selvie's second most productive. That, right there, is why they have coaches for individual positions and some dream of having the opportunity to refine/hone a guy with such god given talent. He's a force moving straight up-field and when in a straight-line situation JPP flashes his rare speed. He's fairly explosive off the snap, but must learn how to track the ball better and must work at breaking down in his hips, reading & reacting, and making a sound tackle. His hand use and development will get a lot of attention from his coaches, though he does flash the ability to power his way through OL 40-50 pounds heavier than him.

He's not especially book smart, and he's still learning the game of football, but this doesn't appear to be a major attitude concern, nor does there appear to be a work ethic problem at this point. Once again, not a guy that's in my Top 10 right now, and only 3rd in my DE rankings, but he's going in the first 10-11 picks whether we think that's where he belongs or not. NFL scouts, evaluators, and especially coaches are going to love what he brings to the table and are going to be drooling thinking about his growth potential as a football player.

FUNBUNCHER
02-22-2010, 10:17 AM
If people are this crazy high on JPP, how severely underrated is Carlos Dunlap right about now??

When all the evaluations are done, I bet some teams will look at Dunlap as a safer pick to play 43 DE than JPP, especially if they test similarly and Dunlap comes in 25 - 30# heavier and is much stronger in the bench.

SenorGato
02-22-2010, 10:26 AM
If people are this crazy high on JPP, how severely underrated is Carlos Dunlap right about now??

When all the evaluations are done, I bet some teams will look at Dunlap as a safer pick to play 43 DE than JPP, especially if they test similarly and Dunlap comes in 25 - 30# heavier and is much stronger in the bench.

Very. I hated Dunlap up until this JPP hype put it in perspective for me.

JPP's a guy with one year of production at a D1 school and the D1 school was at the USF as opposed to Dunlap's 2 years of good production in a major program in the SEC.

I have little to no reason to have any faith in JPP as a prospect...his play is OK...his technique blows...yes, he did some backflips...yes, he has prototypical measurements...congrats to him...but 1 year of not even out of this world production in the Big East + cool measurables does not and should not = top 10 pick. It's just absurd...

As far as Selvie getting outplayed by JPP...statswise, sure....But I don't buy that a 22 year old just lost explosiveness or speed or this or that...Selvie's a far more advanced and established player and despite his lack of fancy numbers the past couple of years was still a good starter on a college DL. I have 0 doubts that alot of why JPP looked so good was because he played with Selvie...and that Selvie was more than willing to help him out too...AND that the reason he's leaving early is because Selvie is leaving and his stock will never be higher....

Count JPP as just this week's Shiny New Toy.

K Train
02-22-2010, 10:26 AM
Pudge, i am not calling selvie and elite prospect...but i personally value him as a conversion OLB more than i value JPP as a 43end. now if selvie dominates the combine he may sneak into the first or become a second round lock similar to what quentin groves did....he was possibly a first rounder but a sure fire second rounder.

i agree that JPP is a much better athlete and will go much higher and did overshadow selvie last year, but when its all said and done i think selvie has the better career and JPP becomes a forgotten name. its obviously all speculation right now, but thats my prediction.

Selvie has some work to do in indy but i think he'll go much much higher than the 5th round grade your giving him

ndbigdave
02-22-2010, 10:29 AM
If people are this crazy high on JPP, how severely underrated is Carlos Dunlap right about now??

When all the evaluations are done, I bet some teams will look at Dunlap as a safer pick to play 43 DE than JPP, especially if they test similarly and Dunlap comes in 25 - 30# heavier and is much stronger in the bench.

I dont see Dunlap as be as "explosive" as JPP but I see Dunlap as being a more consistent and more versatile as a D-Lineman.

Dunlap will check-in at almost 6'6" and in the 290's for weight. Dunlap has shown the ability to get to the QB but is also stout enough to be a force against the run (though he must improve here).

Even in the absolute worst case scenario I could see Dunlap putting on a few pounds and playing DT in a 4-man front.

JPP has the build to be an OLD in the 3-4, but I dont see anyway he could be trusted in coverage or to diagnose plays.

ThePudge
02-22-2010, 10:31 AM
If people are this crazy high on JPP, how severely underrated is Carlos Dunlap right about now??

When all the evaluations are done, I bet some teams will look at Dunlap as a safer pick to play 43 DE than JPP, especially if they test similarly and Dunlap comes in 25 - 30# heavier and is much stronger in the bench.

Um.... why? Jason Pierre-Paul isn't a **** player on the field like Dunlap. This is one boom-or-bust battle that's just too easy to decide. Dunlap's not as explosive, he's not as fast, he's not as long (height/arm length), and he plays with less power than JPP. Weight and bench mean nothing if you have no sense of leverage. Dunlap's three years of tape cause far more doubt than JPP's one. He (Pierre-Paul) was a very good, active player for USF, one that played with a great deal of length & athleticism, but he's raw/inexperienced... Carlos disappears on film, doesn't come off the snap quickly, has little football instincts, and doesn't play his size at all.

Though I don't have him graded there, Pierre-Paul will be a Top 10 pick, like it or not. Analyzing the draft is a twofold process... your personal opinion & evaluations and a psychological study of NFL coaches/GMs. Al Davis & Co. don't pass on this guy, and it's hard to blame them because the Bucs could take him 5 picks earlier at 3rd Overall. Teams will overdraft pass-rushers, they'll overdraft physical specimens and JPP is both with a strong, albeit small, game tape database.

I don't think enough people here know that he was actually a good player for the Bulls and could have a higher floor then most make it out to be. He's going to be a gamble for whichever team in the Top 10 drafts him, but regardless, he's going there.

George Lippard
02-22-2010, 10:32 AM
If JPP scores a 0 on his wonderlic, will he fall out of the top 10?

SenorGato
02-22-2010, 10:35 AM
Um.... why? Jason Pierre-Paul isn't a **** player on the field like Dunlap. This is one boom-or-bust battle that's just too easy to decide. Dunlap's not as explosive, he's not as fast, he's not as long (height/arm length), and he plays with less power than JPP. Weight and bench mean nothing if you have no sense of leverage. Dunlap's three years of tape cause far more doubt than JPP's one. He (Pierre-Paul) was a very good, active player for USF, one that played with a great deal of length & athleticism, but he's raw/inexperienced... Carlos disappears on film, doesn't come off the snap quickly, has little football instincts, and doesn't play his size at all.

Though I don't have him graded there, Pierre-Paul will be a Top 10 pick, like it or not. Analyzing the draft is a twofold process... your personal opinion & evaluations and a psychological study of NFL coaches/GMs. Al Davis & Co. don't pass on this guy, and it's hard to blame them because the Bucs could take him 5 picks earlier at 3rd Overall. Teams will overdraft pass-rushers, they'll overdraft physical specimens and JPP is both with a strong, albeit small, game tape database.

I don't think enough people here know that he was actually a good player for the Bulls and could have a higher floor then most make it out to be. He's going to be a gamble for whichever team in the Top 10 drafts him, but regardless, he's going there.

1. It's nowhere near set in stone that he's going in the top 10. This is, for the most part, an internet rumor during the most boring part of the NFL offseason.

2. I can't believe I'm saying this, but you severely underrate Dunlap. I have no idea where this power you see in JPP is even coming from...I don't think he plays up to his measurables (all the time) at all...and even then I don't see him as a power player.

K Train
02-22-2010, 10:36 AM
I don't think enough people here know that he was actually a good player for the Bulls and could have a higher floor then most make it out to be. He's going to be a gamble for whichever team in the Top 10 drafts him, but regardless, he's going there.

let me set it straight that i never said he wasnt a good player, he was a great player last year....but that doesnt translate to a great pro player, something im not convinced he will be

ThePudge
02-22-2010, 10:40 AM
I dont see Dunlap as be as "explosive" as JPP but I see Dunlap as being a more consistent and more versatile as a D-Lineman.

Dunlap will check-in at almost 6'6" and in the 290's for weight. Dunlap has shown the ability to get to the QB but is also stout enough to be a force against the run (though he must improve here).

Even in the absolute worst case scenario I could see Dunlap putting on a few pounds and playing DT in a 4-man front.

JPP has the build to be an OLD in the 3-4, but I dont see anyway he could be trusted in coverage or to diagnose plays.

Dunlap looks powerful, he'll test strong, but it's not there on the field yet. He's far from even a good pass-rusher and benefitted from a strong defense and coverage sacks. In the run game, he's not stout at all. He plays far too tall and lacks anchor strength in his lower body. A guy his size shouldn't get pushed around like he does. A big reason why he gets pushed around (in addition to lack of lower body anchor strength) is a lack of explosiveness off the snap as he's not one that's quick to engage. JPP makes OL play at his pace whereas Dunlap is often an OL's dream with a lackadaisical motor that comes & goes.

I'm not going to limit the creativity of a defensive mind, but if we're thinking about flip-flopping him around at DE/DT he's going to need a ton of work. Pierre-Paul needs work on his hand use as well, but Dunlap has shown to be a bit slower in that aspect and certainly in a less active player on film.... The biggest difference I'd like to illustrate is that when Pierre-Paul plays you can see that length, that athleticism, even some surprising power at times; when Dunlap plays you wonder if his physical claims can even be true, as he's thrown around like a rag doll at times despite his 6'6 290 (4.7e). JPP = raw, Dunlap = underachiever

ThePudge
02-22-2010, 10:43 AM
If JPP scores a 0 on his wonderlic, will he fall out of the top 10?

Probably not, to be honest. Vince Young, a Quarterback/future face of a franchise, bombed his test and still went Top 3. You don't need to know what color a fire truck is to run straight ahead or track a football. His football IQ definitely will need some attention, but it's nothing that will keep him out of the Top 10. If he doesn't come across as a prick in interviews, he's pretty much golden.

K Train
02-22-2010, 10:44 AM
Dunlap is big and slow...the jamal anderson comparison couldnt be anymore perfect for him. he will have to shift inside at some point and will be a decent DT that gets good pressure but as far as an end rusher id be very surprised. Anderson has been playing on the inside and the falcons do like him there, but the man is a complete failure at DE. i actually think JPP would be a good fit in atlanta playing with abraham, jerry, anderson and being on the end lol

FUNBUNCHER
02-22-2010, 10:50 AM
Agreed Pudge, that evaluating the draft is both prospect analysis and 'reading the minds' of NFL coaches, GMs, and owners, but for a top 5 to 10 pick, personally when the best thing someone can say about a player is 'upside/potential', it scares me off a player when a team is picking that high.

When's the last time a prospect played ONE YEAR of D1 football and was drafted in the top 10??
Like I said, I don't have anything against JPP as DE prospect, but conversations about him possibly being selected in the top 5 - 10 is just beyond me.

Also, I wouldn't say for certain at this point that JPP outperforms Dunlap in any of the tests at the combine; they are the same height and it's not like Dunlap has short baby arms either.
His effort is inconsistent, but so is JPP's for that matter; they've both been invisible in games at times last season.

When Dunlap was on his game from what I saw, he could be unblockable, and IMO he's a much better prospect than Derrick Harvey was at the same time.

Speaking of Harvey, is he all that different a prospect than JPP is??

I think not.

ThePudge
02-22-2010, 10:50 AM
let me set it straight that i never said he wasnt a good player, he was a great player last year....but that doesnt translate to a great pro player, something im not convinced he will be

It's ok, I'm not here trying to correct people or bash anyone for their opinions. I don't have him graded in the Top 10 and I'm not sold he's a great pro player. I'm realistic though and I'm pretty good at picking up on draft trends, I like to get off my high horse and really look at things from a coach/scouts perspective. I think Brandon Graham will be a better pro than JPP, Derrick Morgan too, and I have them ranked accordingly on my board.... However, if anyone told me either of those players would go ahead of Pierre-Paul I'd shake my head, say that's not true.

I'm trying to bring light to this unexplained phenomenon and people are letting pride and personal evaluation get in the way. I say he'll go in the Top 10, but I wouldn't take him there. He could go as high as 3, that'd be some gamble, but it could happen. I'm just here trying to explain to people why he goes that high.

Really, the easiest part of making a bold statement like Pierre-Paul is a Top 10 lock is a structured analysis of a team's ownership, direction, scheme, and current personnel. I don't see him getting past Al Davis at 8, and the furthest I see him sliding is Jacksonville at 10. Each team is in dire need of a pass-rush and he'll more than likely be the most attractive DE come April.

K Train
02-22-2010, 10:57 AM
It's ok, I'm not here trying to correct people or bash anyone for their opinions. I don't have him graded in the Top 10 and I'm not sold he's a great pro player. I'm realistic though and I'm pretty good at picking up on draft trends, I like to get off my high horse and really look at things from a coach/scouts perspective. I think Brandon Graham will be a better pro than JPP, Derrick Morgan too, and I have them ranked accordingly on my board.... However, if anyone told me either of those players would go ahead of Pierre-Paul I'd shake my head, say that's not true.

I'm trying to bring light to this unexplained phenomenon and people are letting pride and personal evaluation get in the way. I say he'll go in the Top 10, but I wouldn't take him there. He could go as high as 3, that's be some gamble, but it could happen. I'm just here trying to explain to people why he goes that high.

Really, the easiest part of making a bold statement like Pierre-Paul is a Top 10 lock is a structured analysis of a team's ownership, direction, scheme, and current personnel. I don't see him getting past Al Davis at 8, and the furthest I see him sliding is Jacksonville at 10. Each team is in dire need of a pass-rush and he'll more than likely be the most attractive DE come April.
I dont think the jags would take him after taking harvey and groves high the last few years, but i guess when you play the colts twice a year you need to do things like that.

i think graham will be the best pass rusher of this class, but i understand why he will fall, hes not fast, hes short, he has short arms....the man can ball though. i know why JPP will be the first or second DE taken, i just dont agree with it.

back on dunlap...i wouldnt be surprised to see him play 34 end either, as a RDE i think he could dominate and still get pressure from that spot. Hes so huge that he could hold his own similar to calais campbell is playing for the cards right now and what i expect wootton to be drafted as. just some food for thought i guess, hes not your prototype 34 end but bruce smith got his sacks playing in a 34, you dont have to be aaron smith or richard seymour....he might be a guy some of these new 34 teams might look at. hes definitely an interesting prospect

ndbigdave
02-22-2010, 10:58 AM
It's ok, I'm not here trying to correct people or bash anyone for their opinions. I don't have him graded in the Top 10 and I'm not sold he's a great pro player. I'm realistic though and I'm pretty good at picking up on draft trends, I like to get off my high horse and really look at things from a coach/scouts perspective. I think Brandon Graham will be a better pro than JPP, Derrick Morgan too, and I have them ranked accordingly on my board.... However, if anyone told me either of those players would go ahead of Pierre-Paul I'd shake my head, say that's not true.

I'm trying to bring light to this unexplained phenomenon and people are letting pride and personal evaluation get in the way. I say he'll go in the Top 10, but I wouldn't take him there. He could go as high as 3, that'd be some gamble, but it could happen. I'm just here trying to explain to people why he goes that high.

Really, the easiest part of making a bold statement like Pierre-Paul is a Top 10 lock is a structured analysis of a team's ownership, direction, scheme, and current personnel. I don't see him getting past Al Davis at 8, and the furthest I see him sliding is Jacksonville at 10. Each team is in dire need of a pass-rush and he'll more than likely be the most attractive DE come April.

Pudge, I followed what you were doing - you were playing the Devil's advocate role here and telling it how it is - past drafts have shown that workout warriors and physical freaks will shoot up draft boards because of the measureables and the "high ceiling" and "high potential...

JPP...will hop guys with better productions (Graham, Morgan) not because he is better now, but that one day he COULD BE great due to some pretty crazy physical traits.

Now - I accept he will go higher - I just dont think its right.

I will be curious to see how the combine goes, but for right now...

Morgan, Graham, Dunlap all rate ahead of him now at DE.

ThePudge
02-22-2010, 10:58 AM
1. It's nowhere near set in stone that he's going in the top 10. This is, for the most part, an internet rumor during the most boring part of the NFL offseason.

2. I can't believe I'm saying this, but you severely underrate Dunlap. I have no idea where this power you see in JPP is even coming from...I don't think he plays up to his measurables (all the time) at all...and even then I don't see him as a power player.

I can honestly say I've never seen Carlos Dunlap play up to his freak physical ability. He's never appeared fast, never really appeared tough to move, and never appeared especially strong or disruptive. He's not underrated, he's this class' biggest underachiever (over Taylor Mays and Bruce Campbell.) Still, I expect he'll be drafted in the 16-32 range.... though I'm much more confident saying Pierre-Paul will be a Top 10 pick than I am saying Dunlap will be a first rounder.

JPP's stock is just going to get hotter & hotter (just look how the pre-draft process is set up) and by the end of the April we might be shaking our heads, hearing about how the Bucs pulled the trigger at 3rd Overall and passed on Dez Bryant, Eric Berry, etc. It's not an internet rumor, there's a lot of good information & logic to back it up, and don't look surprised when we're talking about JPP as a lock for the Top 8 (a bit later on.)

ThePudge
02-22-2010, 11:08 AM
Pudge, I followed what you were doing - you were playing the Devil's advocate role here and telling it how it is - past drafts have shown that workout warriors and physical freaks will shoot up draft boards because of the measureables and the "high ceiling" and "high potential...

JPP...will hop guys with better productions (Graham, Morgan) not because he is better now, but that one day he COULD BE great due to some pretty crazy physical traits.

Now - I accept he will go higher - I just dont think its right.

I will be curious to see how the combine goes, but for right now...

Morgan, Graham, Dunlap all rate ahead of him now at DE.


Glad you followed me there, I'm really not trying to be a jerk here and in my own evaluation I like Graham/Morgan more... but what makes the draft so great is the psychological aspect of it and the trends that seem to occur yearly. I firmly have JPP as my #3 DE though; he's a good, active player on film, there's a lot to like on the field, and he has the physical ability to do absolutely anything with his career. I think he's a better pro prospect than more productive guys like Jerry Hughes, and he's a worthwhile gamble later in the Top 15. Still... he'll go Top 8-10 and we all will have to sit here and accept it.

That said, Carlos Dunlap confuses the hell out of me (stock wise). He has the underachiever tag on him, he doesn't appear to have much passion for the game, and that DUI before the SEC Championship didn't help much either. Those guys tend to fall, sometimes silently (see Michael Johnson) and it's not unthinkable that this physical specimen falls out of the first round. On the field... damn... he's just not a strong football player & he doesn't possess a strong skill-set. Almost everything you can say about him requires the ending "needs improvement" except for maybe his 40 time, bench press number, or height-weight combo.

Draft King
02-22-2010, 11:11 AM
I remember when Jamaal Anderson climbed up the draft boards and Atlanta picked him. A sad day for me. Obviously not the same scenario because Anderson had double digit sacks at Arkansas, but we could have had Patrick Willis. Maybe the same thing could happen and the team that takes JPP will wish they took Rolando McClain.

George Lippard
02-22-2010, 11:13 AM
I remember when Jamaal Anderson climbed up the draft boards and Atlanta picked him. A sad day for me. Obviously not the same scenario because Anderson had double digit sacks at Arkansas, but we could have had Patrick Willis. Maybe the same thing could happen and the team that takes JPP will wish they took Rolando McClain.

Good post, I agree with everything here. The bold WILL happen.

FUNBUNCHER
02-22-2010, 11:14 AM
I was just watching some clips of Carlos Dunlap last season and that dude is nearly always chipped or double-teamed on passing downs(!). When a team is foolish enough to leave him one on one against an OT, he blows the play up with either pressure or a sack/near sack.

I think Dunlap could put up combine numbers eerily similar to Mario Williams.

Yeah, he looks lackadaisical sometimes and hot and cold intensity-wise, but when he brings it, Dunlap is an extremely disruptive player.

ThePudge
02-22-2010, 11:22 AM
I was just watching some clips of Carlos Dunlap last season and that dude is nearly always chipped or double-teamed on passing downs(!). When a team is foolish enough to leave him one on one against an OT, he blows the play up with either pressure or a sack/near sack.

I think Dunlap could put up combine numbers eerily similar to Mario Williams.

Yeah, he looks lackadaisical sometimes and hot and cold intensity-wise, but when he brings it, Dunlap is an extremely disruptive player.

I've watched Dunlap with such an open mind over the past year (and before) but I've failed to ever be impressed with his explosiveness, his ability to shed blocks, and his ability to get leverage either to anchor or to drive an OL back. He has potential, he's not god-awful, he just is such an underachiever and carries that tag around with him, despite having Mario Williams' triangle numbers. Most of his sacks are due to good coverage and a QB holding the ball too long and though I wouldn't say the same about every player on that defense, you can attribute a lot of his production to the guys around him on the nation's top defense.

K Train
02-22-2010, 11:24 AM
I remember when Jamaal Anderson climbed up the draft boards and Atlanta picked him. A sad day for me. Obviously not the same scenario because Anderson had double digit sacks at Arkansas, but we could have had Patrick Willis. Maybe the same thing could happen and the team that takes JPP will wish they took Rolando McClain.

this is a very likely scenerio, although i think JPP has twice the potential of anderson...i never really understood why everyone was so high on anderson that year. i would have preferred chris houston over anderson if i was taking an arkansas player, and the falcons got both lol. at least blalock was a good pick that year

K Train
02-22-2010, 11:26 AM
I've watched Dunlap with such an open mind over the past year (and before) but I've failed to ever be impressed with his explosiveness, his ability to shed blocks, and his ability to get leverage either to anchor or to drive an OL back. He has potential, he's not god-awful, he just is such an underachiever and carries that tag around with him, despite having Mario Williams' triangle numbers. Most of his sacks are due to good coverage and a QB holding the ball too long and though I wouldn't say the same about every player on that defense, you can attribute a lot of his production to the guys around him on the nation's top defense.

i think cunningham will have the better career, but i think in the right situation dunlap offers a ton of versatility on what to do with him.

yourfavestoner
02-22-2010, 11:28 AM
I am still having a hard time figuring out what makes JPP so much better of a prospect than Michael Johnson... he's faster?...

JPP's problem is that he doesn't really know what he's doing yet. Michael Johnson knew what he was doing, but was too ******* lazy to ever do it.

ThePudge
02-22-2010, 11:40 AM
i think cunningham will have the better career, but i think in the right situation dunlap offers a ton of versatility on what to do with him.

I think he could, potentially, and a team may draft him to play 4-3 DE, 4-3 DE/UT, or 3-4 DE. To be frank though, if you put him in any other position than end, even against college competition, and he gets eaten alive. He's just not quick enough off the snap, it's to easy to get your hands on him inside, and in a phone booth Dunlap gets thrown around. Offensive Guards/Centers have a slightly easier time getting into a defenders pads, and that's really where this particular player struggles. I agree that he could very well be drafted with some versatility in mind, but he needs serious work at Defensive End before Tackle even becomes a pipe dream.

FUNBUNCHER
02-22-2010, 11:41 AM
JPP's problem is that he doesn't really know what he's doing yet. Michael Johnson knew what he was doing, but was too ******* lazy to ever do it.

How many starting college DEs ALSO played on kick coverage teams for an entire game, every game, all season??

What some call 'lazy', I call fatigue.

ThePudge
02-22-2010, 11:47 AM
How many starting college DEs ALSO played on kick coverage teams for an entire game, every game, all season??

What some call 'lazy', I call fatigue.

Johnson stamina was a huge problem at Georgia Tech and it made his motor really seem inconsistent. He wasn't an every down DE until his Senior year then his motor seemed to run hot & extremely cold. He was pegged with an underachiever label and his stock dropped accordingly (even on draft day.) Johnson was a high character guy with a strong work ethic, but he was/still is best suited for a 3rd Down pass-rushing role due to his lack of anchor strength and questionable stamina/effort.

Saints-Tigers
02-22-2010, 01:23 PM
I was just watching some clips of Carlos Dunlap last season and that dude is nearly always chipped or double-teamed on passing downs(!). When a team is foolish enough to leave him one on one against an OT, he blows the play up with either pressure or a sack/near sack.

I think Dunlap could put up combine numbers eerily similar to Mario Williams.

Yeah, he looks lackadaisical sometimes and hot and cold intensity-wise, but when he brings it, Dunlap is an extremely disruptive player.


This.


I hear Dunlap's production discredited, and I watch JPP get all sort of lame excuses, even though he was definitely less productive, against lesser competition.

Look, I have JPP as a mid-late first round kind of guy, it's not like I totally hate him, but it's like when you are the flavor of the week, everyone looks at your weaknesses as strengths(inexperience for instance), but if you are pretty productive but not totally dominant, you get picked at.

Dunlap hasn't lived up to his potential, but he's been a fine player, getting 9 sacks 2 years in a row, having big numbers in big games, and rushing the passer and playing the run from a 3 man front.

K Train
02-22-2010, 02:24 PM
Dunlap is big and slow...the jamal anderson comparison couldnt be anymore perfect for him. he will have to shift inside at some point and will be a decent DT that gets good pressure but as far as an end rusher id be very surprised. Anderson has been playing on the inside and the falcons do like him there, but the man is a complete failure at DE. i actually think JPP would be a good fit in atlanta playing with abraham, jerry, anderson and being on the end lol

i got negative repped for this? out of everything ive said....this was over the edge? lol

ThePudge
02-22-2010, 02:25 PM
This.


I hear Dunlap's production discredited, and I watch JPP get all sort of lame excuses, even though he was definitely less productive, against lesser competition.

Look, I have JPP as a mid-late first round kind of guy, it's not like I totally hate him, but it's like when you are the flavor of the week, everyone looks at your weaknesses as strengths(inexperience for instance), but if you are pretty productive but not totally dominant, you get picked at.

Dunlap hasn't lived up to his potential, but he's been a fine player, getting 9 sacks 2 years in a row, having big numbers in big games, and rushing the passer and playing the run from a 3 man front.

I'm not one for calling people out, but there's little to nothing here I agree with and there seems to be a severe lack of actual knowledge of the players. Anyone can look at numbers and make assumptions. On film the stories are much different for these too. Carlos Dunlap is an underachiever, we all know, and because he's been in the spotlight all year (hyped as a Top 5 pick) he has that reputation. Michael Johnson got that tag and, despite more productivity than Dunlap ever had, he fell to the 3rd Round. This is where people are getting confused, JPP is not an underachiever at this point, he had one year of exposure, and made the most of it. I watched these two teams plenty and there's really not a question as to who's a better player right now in my book.

Inexperience isn't a strength, but because of a lack of experience we can assume Pierre-Paul will continue to improve and make strides, just like he's done over the past couple years. Carlos Dunlap hasn't improved as a player and playing on the best defense in the country definitely benefitted him in the stat sheet. He was the second best DE on his team behind Jermaine Cunningham. His "production" largely came on coverage sacks and there was never a point, even in the Sugar Bowl, that Dunlap was unblockable. I watched him a lot and I waited... and waited... and waited. Dunlap is more raw as a player than JPP and comes with less explosiveness off the snap. Statistics won't tell you how many plays Pierre-Paul barely missed by over-pursuing and getting too deep into the backfield; they also don't record the amount of yards Dunlap was pushed back in the run game & how many plays he ended up on the ground. JPP = elite physical specimen, disruptive but raw, Carlos = top physical specimen, raw, underachiever.

So you can go on thinking he's the flavor of the week, just like Tyson Jackson was on draft week a year ago. I'm not sitting here guaranteeing pro success, but I am saying that due to his physical tools and his game film (not statistics) Jason Pierre-Paul will be a Top 10 (11*) pick. The hype machine isn't ********, it's a very present part of every single draft and it can take 2nd round players and turn them into Top 10-15 picks whether we like it or not. Jason Pierre-Paul is a pass-rushing prospect with elite physical ability and length, Dunlap is a DL prospect with elite triangle numbers that are rarely flashed on the field. There's really no question who had the better season, who will be the more valued NFL prospect, and you'd really have to look further than numbers & statistics to come to a legitimate conclusion.

But hey... these are all just words until April. Pierre-Paul, barring injury, will go higher than Carlos Dunlap and I've spent a good portion of my day (earlier & now) explaining exactly why. I'm very objective when it comes to the draft, but I don't mind guaranteeing that, and I don't mind guaranteeing a Top 10(11*) pick for JPP who will more than likely be the first DE off the board.

K Train
02-22-2010, 03:03 PM
i pretty much agree with everything youve said in this thread pudge, while im not so high on him as most i understand just why people are.

someone started a JPP bandwagon over the last 2 weeks or so that hes being praised highly or getting torn apart. i dont know if this talk will last all the way through draft day...he may fall off a little bit, im not sure top 3 possibilities will be considered come april, but who knows maybe he will lock himself into those discussion. its all speculation, everyone seems to be on the bandwagon within the last 2 weeks.....and yet he hasnt done anything in that time at all to improve his stock

Saints-Tigers
02-22-2010, 03:09 PM
Pierre Paul can go higher than Dunlap, and he can go higher than any other DE in this draft, that doesn't change that he wasn't very productive either.

He's a far better player, yet he was even less productive against the pass and the run, so maybe he's just a tard?

Saints-Tigers
02-22-2010, 03:17 PM
Also, we're gushing over his gametape, so if he disappoints at the combine and runs like a 4.75 or something, he should still go top 3, since his game tape is so damn amazing, right?

If he's the 5th most athletic DE in the draft, he should still go top 5.

Clarkw267
02-22-2010, 03:29 PM
Pierre Paul can go higher than Dunlap, and he can go higher than any other DE in this draft, that doesn't change that he wasn't very productive either.

He's a far better player, yet he was even less productive against the pass and the run, so maybe he's just a tard?

I'm gonna go out on a limb, and say that you've either never seen him play at all, or just looked up some youtube videos.

The guy has a rare ability to consistently beat the tackle and get to the QB. His problem was breaking down and making the play. He was disruptive in all 3 of the games that I watched of USF's this year.

Dunlap doesn't flash that explosiveness off the ball, and he doesn't look disruptive. He's a big dude, who's supposedly fast. Other than that he doesn't have much going for him.

Saints-Tigers
02-22-2010, 03:37 PM
I have seen him, and I like his explosion, but he's still a project in a deep draft, a guy that needs a lot of work(like Dunlap).

Dunlap is pretty explosive to me, especially for 6'6 and 290. It's not easy to get a strong pass rush from a 3 man front, it's a lot easier when you are out on teh far edge.

It's just that there isn't enough tape to overanalyze him, that's the issue here.

FUNBUNCHER
02-22-2010, 03:43 PM
Dunlap may be labeled an underachiever, but let's not act like he's done NOTHING of note on a football field.

He beasted OU's oline in the NC game 2 years ago, and from what I've seen of Dunlap this past season, there isn't one OT who can handle Dunlap one on one for 4 quarters.

At 6'6, 260#, JPP is going to struggle next year to do much against the run, unlike Dunlap.

Maybe it's just me, but as pure prospects, I like Dunlap better than JPP.

ThePudge
02-22-2010, 03:44 PM
Pierre Paul can go higher than Dunlap, and he can go higher than any other DE in this draft, that doesn't change that he wasn't very productive either.

He's a far better player, yet he was even less productive against the pass and the run, so maybe he's just a tard?

I'm not a part of the Jason Pierre-Paul bandwagon, in fact, not many are... but NFL evaluators are without a doubt what started this movement & that's who he really appeals to. Football isn't black & white, better statistics don't point to a better player all the time. I never have said once that Jason Pierre-Paul is the best NFL player/prospect out of this group, personally I prefer Brandon Graham and Derrick Morgan, but I have been spending a chunk of my day telling people why like it or not, JPP is coming to a Top 10 near you. He could get below a 5 on the Wonderlic, he could test positive for marijuana, and I still think he'll be drafted in the first 10 picks.

Less productive against the pass and run...


Pierre-Paul = 45 Tackles 16.5 TFL 6.5 Sacks 7 QBH 2 PassBrUp 1 Int 2 FF
Dunlap = 38 Tackles 10.5 TFL 9.0 Sacks 2 QBHur 6 PassBrUp

I don't know how you come to that conclusion. Both the players had 13 games under their belt last year. Against the run, JPP recorded 10 TFL comparing to Dunlap's 1.5, he also recorded more tackles on the season. Maybe you'll conceive it as bias, but it's been said many times, Carlos Dunlap's sack numbers are inflated as many of his sacks were coverage sacks. He's not nearly as explosive and spent much less time in the backfield. Many say, and I would agree, that Pierre-Paul played slightly better than his stats (especially the sack numbers) and that Carlos Dunlap played a little worse (especially the sack numbers) than his stats would indicate.

Everyone would agree that Dunlap is an underachiever; he doesn't play up to his size and doesn't play up to his rumored speed. Tell me in what way did Jason Pierre-Paul underachieve this year in his first season at the BCS level? He arrived late to camp, but had a remarkable first season for the Bulls. His game obviously needs time & a lot of work, but he's a better player than many make him out to be and you'll see him in the Top 8-10 in April. Where he goes from there has everything to with how he is coached at the next level and how hard he works.

Edit: Obviously if he runs a 4.75, his stock will drop. That's not where I expect him and I don't think that's where many NFL evaluators expect either. I think he achieves the status of Top 10 lock by running around a 4.65 at the Combine. If he runs faster than that (under 4.60) then the Buccaneers are sure to be all over him at 3 and you'll be hearing a lot about that, if he runs slower (4.70+) then his stock will drop. Of course if he doesn't blow up the Combine like we expect he'll drop. That's something I'm not overly concerned with.

yourfavestoner
02-22-2010, 03:57 PM
Also, Dunlap will struggle against the run just as much as JPP - for his rookie year at least. His technique against the run is absolutely ******* horrendous. I love both of them as prospects, but neither one will be ready for at least a couple of seasons.

I've said it many times - if you're selecting your rookies based on how much you think they'll help you in their rookie seasons...well, you're an idiot. It should be expected that a player won't be a significant until his third year. Any production you get out of the first two years is just gravy on the top. This is ESPECIALLY true for DL.

That's why I've never understood drafting for need. The player you're drafting likely isn't going to contribute much, so how much of a need did he really fill? And with as fluid as NFL rosters are (due to age, injuries, etc) how the hell are you even going to know what your needs will be from year to year? A position that you think you're stacked at might be completely depleted in two seasons.

Just look at San Diego: what might have been the deepest backfield in the league three years ago (LDT, Turner, Sproles) is a bare cupboard right now. The 07 Patriots had one of the the best WR duo we've seen in some time along with great guys as role players (Moss, Welker, Stallworth, Gaffney, Caldwell). Two years later and Moss is on his last leg, Welker only has one leg and they're in desperate need of youth at WR. Who would have thought that two years ago?

All you can do is pick the best talent that's available to you. Unless you're a psychic, you have no idea what your needs will be from year to year.

descendency
02-22-2010, 03:59 PM
I didn't read the topic, but I'm willing to say that JPP CLEARLY has the most upside. However, he is NOT the best DE. My #1 DE by production and talent is Brandon Graham. I'm not a huge Derrick Morgan fan.

yourfavestoner
02-22-2010, 04:04 PM
I didn't read the topic, but I'm willing to say that JPP CLEARLY has the most upside. However, he is NOT the best DE. My #1 DE by production and talent is Brandon Graham. I'm not a huge Derrick Morgan fan.

Me neither. When I see Morgan, I see Kenechi Udeze/Jamaal Anderson/Derrick Harvey all over again.

cajuncorey
02-22-2010, 04:36 PM
I don't know how you come to that conclusion. Both the players had 13 games under their belt last year. Against the run, JPP recorded 10 TFL comparing to Dunlap's 1.5, he also recorded more tackles on the season. Maybe you'll conceive it as bias, but it's been said many times, Carlos Dunlap's sack numbers are inflated as many of his sacks were coverage sacks. He's not nearly as explosive and spent much less time in the backfield. Many say, and I would agree, that Pierre-Paul played slightly better than his stats (especially the sack numbers) and that Carlos Dunlap played a little worse (especially the sack numbers) than his stats would indicate.

Everyone would agree that Dunlap is an underachiever; he doesn't play up to his size and doesn't play up to his rumored speed. Tell me in what way did Jason Pierre-Paul underachieve this year in his first season at the BCS level? He arrived late to camp, but had a remarkable first season for the Bulls. His game obviously needs time & a lot of work, but he's a better player than many make him out to be and you'll see him in the Top 8-10 in April. Where he goes from there has everything to with how he is coached at the next level and how hard he works.



yeah dunlap hasnt been spectacular but hes been a solid player. he is going to solidify his draft position when he runs 4.6 at the combine weighing in close to 290 people just think hes a softy and cant play but if he gets in the right system the sky is the limit, the dude has all the potential in the world and i would draft him purely just off that. he WILL be better NFL player than JPP

superman8456
02-22-2010, 05:05 PM
If you use a top 10 pick in the draft, you expect that player to come in and start from day 1. My only problem with JPP is that I highly doubt he will be starting day 1. I think he would have trouble seeing the field on non passing downs.

I think a Carlos Dunlap could probably become a starter mid season, or even earlier.

yourfavestoner
02-22-2010, 05:27 PM
If you use a top 10 pick in the draft, you expect that player to come in and start from day 1. My only problem with JPP is that I highly doubt he will be starting day 1. I think he would have trouble seeing the field on non passing downs.

I think a Carlos Dunlap could probably become a starter mid season, or even earlier.

Not true at all. Usually, guys with higher ceilings get drafted before guys with high floors.

Unless your top 10 pick is a RB or a LB (even LT to an extent, but they generally have more growing pains than RBs and LBs), having the expectation that your player will come in and be productive right away is completely unrealistic.

Saints-Tigers
02-22-2010, 05:32 PM
I think Dunlap is better against the run because he was able to hold up in a 3 man front. He's not a dominator, but he was holding a lot of blockers as opposed to playing in a 3 man front.

I just don't see his production as "remarkable" for someone that is being discussed as a top 3 player, especially with so many great players with really high potential as well.

Personally I'd prefer Brandon Graham over both.

cajuncorey
02-22-2010, 05:35 PM
Not true at all. Usually, guys with higher ceilings get drafted before guys with high floors.
Unless your top 10 pick is a RB or a LB (even LT to an extent, but they generally have more growing pains than RBs and LBs), having the expectation that your player will come in and be productive right away is completely unrealistic.

haha i like that

marks01234
02-22-2010, 06:45 PM
I don't post to often anymore because I work to much but wanted to say that I love JPP's potential and think that top 3 or top 5 is around where I expect him to go.

Yes, I expect him to blow up the combine. Everything I have seen suggests that he will. Of course, if he runs a 4.75 - he is going to drop.

Keep in mind that JPP has had one season of D-1 football. He also has a massive frame that looks like he can easily add another 20-25 pounds.

Potential is going to shine in the draft every year.

Mr.Regular
02-22-2010, 06:51 PM
Let me join the group not overly impressed with Derrick Morgan. He doesn't seem like he'll be an exceptional player to me.
JPP...I see the potential and its intriguing. I understand the hype, but it is a tad out of control. JPP should not be considered over Eric Berry or Dez Bryant in any circumstance (cough, Tampa). Based on what I've seen he's a solid first round prospect because of his great athleticism and potential but there is nothing I have seen or read about the guy that would make me take him in the top 5

descendency
02-22-2010, 06:58 PM
The problem with Berry or Bryant is the value of their position is so low. A great QB can make great WRs. not the other way around. Tom Brady was successful in the early part of his career with bench players basically. I mean, 30 something Troy Brown and a few years of Deion "Super Bowl MVP" Branch isn't exactly a set of stunning WRs.

DBs can hide in schemes. If Berry can play a lockdown #1 corner, then you have a case for him being #3 overall. If he's only a deep-zone FS, then you have a case of a guy who shouldn't go in the top 5 and maybe not even in the top 10.

Safety and WR just are not franchise pieces. They are novelties.

Mr.Regular
02-22-2010, 07:03 PM
The problem with Berry or Bryant is the value of their position is so low. A great QB can make great WRs. not the other way around. Tom Brady was successful in the early part of his career with bench players basically. I mean, 30 something Troy Brown and a few years of Deion "Super Bowl MVP" Branch isn't exactly a set of stunning WRs.

DBs can hide in schemes. If Berry can play a lockdown #1 corner, then you have a case for him being #3 overall. If he's only a deep-zone FS, then you have a case of a guy who shouldn't go in the top 5 and maybe not even in the top 10.

Safety and WR just are not franchise pieces. They are novelties.
Oh I agree completely with your evaluation of positional value.

I compare Berry with Charles Woodson. Safety/Corner/Nickel/ can do it all player. Though he is listed as a safety, I view him more of an all-purpose defensive back. I think if used correctly he could carry more value then the average safety does.
Bryant, yes I understand where you're coming from. WR's do not typically have a ton of value...but think of the Bucs situation. Young QB...with barely any weapons. Supplying him a weapon like Bryant I think is potentially much more valuable then reaching for a player like JPP, even if the positional value doesn't match.

superman8456
02-22-2010, 07:06 PM
Not true at all. Usually, guys with higher ceilings get drafted before guys with high floors.

Unless your top 10 pick is a RB or a LB (even LT to an extent, but they generally have more growing pains than RBs and LBs), having the expectation that your player will come in and be productive right away is completely unrealistic.

I don't think it is unrealistic at all. Who were players drafted in the 1st round that didn't start for their team? Andre Smith, Donald Brown, Aaron Maybin, and Ziggy Hood. They all have good reasons why they didn't start as well. Andre Smith broke his foot and then the guy in front of him played well, Donald Brown had Joseph Addai in front of him, Ziggy Hood was behind some solid veterans. I'm not expecting all 1st round picks to be productive, but playing time would be a start.

Now a player like Maybin, who I think JPP is very much like, couldn't get on the field because he was a liability. I'm just saying that Derrick Morgan and Brandon Graham have very high ceilings as well, and better floor's. There's a possibility that JPP turns into a good player, but that will be after many off-seasons a **** load of hard work.

Edit: I'd also like to throw out a little comparison to Connor Barwin of last years draft.

Bob Sanders Dreadlock
02-22-2010, 07:24 PM
V4-1e6Faglw

bigbluedefense
02-22-2010, 07:36 PM
he's a mortal lock to go to Oakland.

he fits a huge need, and he's a physical freak. i'd be utterly shocked if Oakland doesn't take him.

unless they go with Anthony Davis, but I still can't see them passing on JPP. Which is sad, bc I like JPP a lot and think he's the best DE prospect we've seen since Mario Williams....but now he's going to bust bc Oakland is going to take him.

Sad.

Scott Wright
02-22-2010, 08:48 PM
The difference between Pierre-Paul and Dunlap is that JPP has a great motor (Dunlap does not) and Dunlap also has off-the-field issues. NFL people will not like that he got in serious trouble the week of his team's biggest game with a championship on the line.

etk
02-22-2010, 09:11 PM
Morgan
Graham
JPP

All 3 are close, but that's how I see it.

Scott Wright
02-22-2010, 09:55 PM
Morgan
Graham
JPP

All 3 are close, but that's how I see it.

It just depends on what you want.

If you're satisfied with a good all-around defensive end who will average 6.0 sacks per year then Morgan is your guy. If you want to take a chance on greatness with a Freeney or Peppers type of talent who could get you 15.0 sacks then you go with Pierre-Paul.

V.I.P
02-22-2010, 10:02 PM
If you're satisfied with a good all-around defensive end who will average 6.0 sacks per year then Morgan is your guy. If you want to take a chance on greatness with a Freeney or Peppers type of talent who could get you 15.0 sacks then you go with Pierre-Paul.

Do you really see JPP as player who will get double digit sacks year in, year out?

superman
02-22-2010, 10:05 PM
i think it's more realistic to say morgan could get you about 8 sacks per yr and jpp 12 per yr on average if they both reach their potential

now morgan is more likely to reach his potential and be better against the run. so it evens out.

Scott Wright
02-22-2010, 10:14 PM
Do you really see JPP as player who will get double digit sacks year in, year out?

Yes, 10.0+ sacks per year on average is realistic for Pierre-Paul if he reaches his potential.

JPP could be on that Freeney, Allen, Peppers level. It's unlikely Morgan will be be he also has a higher floor. It's a classic case of playing it safe or swinging for the fences.

K Train
02-22-2010, 10:17 PM
It just depends on what you want.

If you're satisfied with a good all-around defensive end who will average 6.0 sacks per year then Morgan is your guy. If you want to take a chance on greatness with a Freeney or Peppers type of talent who could get you 15.0 sacks then you go with Pierre-Paul.

obviously freeney and peppers are polar opposites physically but i see what your saying with a JPP-peppers thing, but i dont see any reason graham wouldnt put up 12-15 sacks a year. it depends on what your looking for. i think graham easily has the most solid career, JPP might get sack totals but i could see him being incredibly inconsistant early on.

morgan im not sure about, he could go either way....steady maybe, superstar doubt it, failure maybe

i see graham as an impact now, JPP as maybe just blowing up in a few years after being nonexistant and morgan just having a slow and steady career but never being mentioned with the elite pass rushers

George Lippard
02-22-2010, 11:04 PM
It isn't going to be hard for NFL tackles to neutralise JPP. All they have to do is start spouting off some basic division problems and it'll freeze him in his tracks.

http://vmedia.rivals.com/IMAGES/PROSPECT/PHOTO/JASONPIERREPAUL12_3150.JPG
http://chelaners.files.wordpress.com/2009/05/waterboy.jpg

My m-m-m-momma said that my last name be French on account of my hertige.

Scott Wright
02-22-2010, 11:07 PM
It isn't going to be hard for NFL tackles to neutralise JPP. All they have to do is start spouting off some basic division problems and it'll freeze him in his tracks.

Ha, exactly. When we're talking about quarterbacks and centers I'll care about Wonderlic scores. Freakishly athletic pass rushers? Not much of an issue in my opinion.

Scott Wright
02-22-2010, 11:11 PM
Just a note on Brandon Graham too, and let me preface it by saying I am a big fan. However, I don't think you can talk about Graham as a top defensive end prospect and he will more than likely have to be a 3-4 outside linebacker in the NFL. He is 6-1 with short (30 1/2 inch) arms. In other words he's an inch shorter with 2 inch shorter arms than Larry English. I guess I'm just saying that as much as I like Graham he really doesn't belong in the conversation with guys like Pierre-Paul and Morgan in terms of the type of player he is / will be in the pros.

Bosanac01
02-22-2010, 11:16 PM
I only see brandon graham as a 3-4 OLBer. He's intelligent but his body and athleticism won't allow him to be anything then a situational pass rusher in the league. If only he could cover, he'd be a perfect 3-4 OLBer, not saying he can't but we haven't seen him do it.

K Train
02-22-2010, 11:19 PM
i do think graham could play in a 43, i think he would be perfect for the steelers opposite woodley when harrison gets old and dies.

you say hes eerily similar to woodley and there legitimately not a better comparison, but i think he could excel in any defense as a pass rusher, the steelers dont ask woodley to do much coverage, but he molests RTs as an OLB

the thing is they are completely different types of players, i like what graham brings to the table more though as far as raw power

K Train
02-22-2010, 11:21 PM
I only see brandon graham as a 3-4 OLBer. He's intelligent but his body and athleticism won't allow him to be anything then a situational pass rusher in the league. If only he could cover, he'd be a perfect 3-4 OLBer, not saying he can't but we haven't seen him do it.

woodley doesnt cover much but when he does hes good at it....they are clones, and i could see him being even better in coverage than woodley. hes the top conversion guy this year, and i had spencer the top conversion guy the year we drafted woodley in the second so maybe that shows that graham is a better immediate prospect than woodley was because when woodley came out i thought he was kind of lazy and afraid of top competition

V.I.P
02-22-2010, 11:27 PM
Why can't Graham play 4-3 DE in the NFL? Freeney plays 4-3 DE, and is successful at it.

--------- Height/Weight

Freeney: 6-1 / 268 lbs.
Graham: 6-1 / 263 lbs.

K Train
02-22-2010, 11:28 PM
Why can't Graham play 4-3 DE in the NFL? Freeney plays 4-3 DE, and is successful at it.

Height/Weight
Freeney: 6-1 / 268 lbs.
Graham: 6-1 / 263 lbs.

he can, he definitely can....althought freeney is much faster, i doubt graham runs a 4.38, hes more like a 4.7 tops

but graham would crush freeney in a raw power comparison

ThePudge
02-22-2010, 11:30 PM
Why can't Graham play 4-3 DE in the NFL? Freeney plays 4-3 DE, and is successful at it.

Height/Weight
Freeney: 6-1 / 268 lbs.
Graham: 6-1 / 263 lbs.

Freeney was a sub 4.5 athlete coming out of Syracuse. I'm still convinced, though he will likely be drafted 3rd or 4th among DEs, that he will be the best pro of the bunch. Obviously Pierre-Paul has some incredible upside, but right now I'm more sold in Graham finding success at the next level (at OLB/ILB or DE.)

Scott Wright
02-22-2010, 11:31 PM
he can, he definitely can....althought freeney is much faster, i doubt graham runs a 4.38, hes more like a 4.7 tops

Bingo.

Woodley ran a 4.79 at 6-1 1/2 and 266 pounds coming out. Let's see how Graham does.

Bosanac01
02-22-2010, 11:38 PM
I don't see a good first step in graham but he has great closing speed.

descendency
02-23-2010, 01:20 AM
Only real difference between woodley and graham in my opinion is about 2.5 inches in arm length.

he can, he definitely can....althought freeney is much faster, i doubt graham runs a 4.38, hes more like a 4.7 tops

4.48, Mr. Davis.

BuffaloBillsFan
02-23-2010, 01:41 AM
I think I like Brandon Graham as my #1 DE in this years class.

LickaMahfeetz
02-23-2010, 04:23 AM
obviously freeney and peppers are polar opposites physically but i see what your saying with a JPP-peppers thing, but i dont see any reason graham wouldnt put up 12-15 sacks a year. it depends on what your looking for. i think graham easily has the most solid career, JPP might get sack totals but i could see him being incredibly inconsistant early on.

morgan im not sure about, he could go either way....steady maybe, superstar doubt it, failure maybe

i see graham as an impact now, JPP as maybe just blowing up in a few years after being nonexistant and morgan just having a slow and steady career but never being mentioned with the elite pass rushers
^ That. Couldn't have said it better myself.

LickaMahfeetz
02-23-2010, 04:32 AM
Just a note on Brandon Graham too, and let me preface it by saying I am a big fan. However, I don't think you can talk about Graham as a top defensive end prospect and he will more than likely have to be a 3-4 outside linebacker in the NFL. He is 6-1 with short (30 1/2 inch) arms. In other words he's an inch shorter with 2 inch shorter arms than Larry English. I guess I'm just saying that as much as I like Graham he really doesn't belong in the conversation with guys like Pierre-Paul and Morgan in terms of the type of player he is / will be in the pros.
At the end of the day none of that stuff matters. What matters is who is going to be the most productive at the next level over the course of their career. That's the only thing that matters. That's what the evaluation process end goal should be about reaching. People put too much emphasis on the stuff that doesn't matter. Triangle numbers, arm length all that stuff is great, when it's accompanied by other tangible things that prove to be productive at the next level.

Anybody can knock Graham all day long on the arm length, the timed speed but the bottom line is he finds a way to get it done and that's all that really counts. JPP, for all he has going for him, has not and most likely will not on the next level. Sad but it is what it is. In a perfect world you'd have JPP's body type with Graham's production but this draft thing is hardly ever perfect.

FUNBUNCHER
02-23-2010, 04:45 AM
The difference between Pierre-Paul and Dunlap is that JPP has a great motor (Dunlap does not) and Dunlap also has off-the-field issues. NFL people will not like that he got in serious trouble the week of his team's biggest game with a championship on the line.

A DUI is bad, but does that count as getting into 'serious trouble'??

I think Graham will be the most consistent DE early in his career, and be possibly dominant as an OLB in a 34, but Dunlap in mind still is the most pro ready DE available in the draft with the most upside.

Among JPP, Griffen, Graham, Morgan, and Dunlap, his current physical skills best translate to the NFL game.
The biggest adjustments for Dunlap will be mental, not physical. Physically and talent-wise he reminds me a LOT of Julius Peppers, and he will be a steal for some team if he's not picked in the top 12.

Scott Wright
02-23-2010, 05:09 AM
A DUI is bad, but does that count as getting into 'serious trouble'??

Passing out drunk at a stoplight the week of the SEC Championship game with a National Championship on the line? I think that qualifies as very serious trouble.

FUNBUNCHER
02-23-2010, 06:27 AM
Whoops. Forgot about the falling asleep part.LOL

ElectricEye
02-23-2010, 09:03 AM
The entire screw off right before a game deciding if you'll go to the National Championship game is the part that will hurt him the worst. Not only is the entire thing a ****** thing to do, but it shows a lack of responsibility and a direct disinterest in the game.

Scott Wright
02-23-2010, 09:30 AM
The entire screw off right before a game deciding if you'll go to the National Championship game is the part that will hurt him the worst. Not only is the entire thing a ****** thing to do, but it shows a lack of responsibility and a direct disinterest in the game.

And it hurt his team, which will lead to NFL people taking it a lot more seriously than they might have had the incident occurred in the offseason. Goes to football character.

bigbluedefense
02-23-2010, 09:38 AM
Brandon Graham will slip bc of his measurables, but I honestly think he will be the best pass rusher in this draft class behind JPP.

I thought James Harrison, Dumerville, and Woodley have all made it clear that the new "mismatch" pass rushers in today's league are undersized 3-4 rushbackers who can bullrush standing up with their combination of strength and low pad level and do a decent job speed rushing off the edge in a 2 point stance.

Graham is going to be a monster in a 3-4, and I think he'd be a beast in a 4-3 as well. Don't underestimate leverage and power. Graham has both.

K Train
02-23-2010, 02:28 PM
if he does lock himself into the top 5 and washington misses out on clausen i would imagine they may go ahead and take him. with haynesworth making washington the best place for orakpo to land and then orakpo just proving to be a phenom they really might find some good value in JPP with som many other guys demanding attention.

etk
02-23-2010, 05:01 PM
It just depends on what you want.

If you're satisfied with a good all-around defensive end who will average 6.0 sacks per year then Morgan is your guy. If you want to take a chance on greatness with a Freeney or Peppers type of talent who could get you 15.0 sacks then you go with Pierre-Paul.

JPP is really raw. He can jump high, but other than that he doesn't look more athletic than Morgan on film. Morgan is a more polished version of JPP, although I still think Morgan underachieved at times this year. Matt Pipho shut him down. A player of Morgan's caliber with ideal size, quickness and strength shouldn't get handled by a breeze-by like Pipho.

JPP reminds me a lot of Jamaal Anderson. Big guy, not overly explosive. His arms are gangly too and he runs sloppy sometimes. He can only improve and has some upside, but not enough to warrant ranking him over Morgan imo.

The height/arm length is a real concern with Brandon Graham, but he's very strong, stout and has a good motor. I don't think he's on Woodley's level as an edge rusher but he gets in the backfield and locates ballcarriers. He's always gonna be a TFL first, sacks 2nd guy because he lacks the length and speed to run the arc.

Clarkw267
02-23-2010, 11:57 PM
JPP is really raw. He can jump high, but other than that he doesn't look more athletic than Morgan on film. Morgan is a more polished version of JPP, although I still think Morgan underachieved at times this year. Matt Pipho shut him down. A player of Morgan's caliber with ideal size, quickness and strength shouldn't get handled by a breeze-by like Pipho.

JPP reminds me a lot of Jamaal Anderson. Big guy, not overly explosive. His arms are gangly too and he runs sloppy sometimes. He can only improve and has some upside, but not enough to warrant ranking him over Morgan imo.

The height/arm length is a real concern with Brandon Graham, but he's very strong, stout and has a good motor. I don't think he's on Woodley's level as an edge rusher but he gets in the backfield and locates ballcarriers. He's always gonna be a TFL first, sacks 2nd guy because he lacks the length and speed to run the arc.


I think you have Pierre-Paul and Dunlap confused.

JPP is twice the natural athlete that Morgan is. And he is extremely explosive. One of the quickest 1st steps I've seen. He's nothing like Jamaal Anderson.

Now if you were to compare Dunlap to Anderson that would make sense. Both were big guys that had solid physical tools, but had questionable motors to go along with them.

Scott Wright
02-24-2010, 01:09 AM
The biggest thing about JPP is his motor. Unlike guys such as Michael Johnson and Carlos Dunlap the guy very active and doesn't loaf. That's a huge distinction.

Bosanac01
02-24-2010, 01:12 AM
Jamaal Anderson has a non stop motor, but it's broken. You can compare him to JPP as far a raw goes, but as athletes they don't stack up well. Even though jamaal anderson put up some impressive numbers, he doesn't convert it on the field.

yourfavestoner
02-24-2010, 10:06 AM
The biggest thing about JPP is his motor. Unlike guys such as Michael Johnson and Carlos Dunlap the guy very active and doesn't loaf. That's a huge distinction.

That's what I've been saying, too. JPP didn't put up big numbers because he doesn't really know WTF he's doing yet. Dunlap (who I've seen play extensively) simply doesn't try or look interested unless he's directly involved in the action. He reminds me a lot of Vernon Gholston in that way.

OaklandRaider56
02-24-2010, 02:59 PM
It just depends on what you want.

If you're satisfied with a good all-around defensive end who will average 6.0 sacks per year then Morgan is your guy. If you want to take a chance on greatness with a Freeney or Peppers type of talent who could get you 15.0 sacks then you go with Pierre-Paul.

Interesting, seeing as how Pierre-Paul barely knows how to tackle. I think Morgan has more potential as a pass rusher than you're giving him credit for.

RealityCheck
02-24-2010, 03:13 PM
No kidding, JPP should move to TE if he has good hands.

yourfavestoner
02-24-2010, 03:18 PM
Interesting, seeing as how Pierre-Paul barely knows how to tackle. I think Morgan has more potential as a pass rusher than you're giving him credit for.

Eh, I think the majority of people are overrating his ability as a pass rusher. He fits that same "balanced" mold of Anderson, Harvey, and Udeze - and all those guys have shown is they're not big and strong enough to become great power move pass rushers and they're not athletic enough to beat guys off the edge with speed.

Also, another point Scott made on Twitter that should be taken into account is that, playing LE, Morgan went against RTs in college - not elite pass blocking LTs.

CC.SD
02-24-2010, 03:19 PM
No kidding, JPP should move to TE if he has good hands.

Yeah, he would know what opposing D-lineman are thinking.

yourfavestoner
02-24-2010, 03:20 PM
Yeah, he would know what opposing D-lineman are thinking.

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to CC.SD again.

SenorGato
02-24-2010, 03:21 PM
We're still talking about this guy? Aren't his 15 minutes up yet?

superman
02-24-2010, 03:24 PM
Eh, I think the majority of people are overrating his ability as a pass rusher. He fits that same "balanced" mold of Anderson, Harvey, and Udeze - and all those guys have shown is they're not big and strong enough to become great power move pass rushers and they're not athletic enough to beat guys off the edge with speed.

Also, another point Scott made on Twitter that should be taken into account is that, playing LE, Morgan went against RTs in college - not elite pass blocking LTs.

same goes for jpp

Bosanac01
02-24-2010, 03:42 PM
Tim Tebow is the number #1 DE of this class.

Paranoidmoonduck
02-24-2010, 08:22 PM
same goes for jpp

I saw Pierre-Paul played pretty extensive snaps on both sides of the line, as well as from a pretty large variety of widths from the ball.

Either way, JPP wouldn't be my top defensive end, but I definitely understand what people see. While his pursuit leaves a lot to be desired (especially when compared to guys like Morgan and Graham), he consistently got around his man in college. Part of this is because he was too willing to take a deep rush and obviously still doesn't do a good job of cutting that rush line shallower to arrive closer to the QB, but that's some pretty small qualms right there. He didn't get by his man as consistently as Graham did, but he profiles better as an NFL DE to me than Graham does (although, on a big board, Graham as a 34 edge rusher would rate higher for me) and I definitely see the argument that if you cleaned up a few things in his game, his ceiling is well beyond that of Morgan.

I don't want to get into the intelligence argument too heavily, because we're all outsiders who have no real point of reference. That said, I do think that intelligence and intensity are hugely important for any pass rusher and I don't see any real evidence that Pierre-Paul has either of those in the amounts you'd want to see from an elite prospect.

bitonti
02-25-2010, 11:06 AM
i dont care if he works out like randy moss

he's got 6.5 career sacks... and basically only started half a year. dunlap has 18 sacks. Morgan 17, Graham 27. even selvie and hardy have 25 career sacks each.

that's the dictionary definition of workout warrior.

Scott Wright
02-25-2010, 11:11 AM
i dont care if he works out like randy moss

he's got 6.5 career sacks... and basically only started half a year. dunlap has 18 sacks. Morgan 17, Graham 27. even selvie and hardy have 25 career sacks each.

that's the dictionary definition of workout warrior.

Always good to see Matt make an appearance on the boards! :)

Personally, I don't think the production is so bad. 6.5 sacks in half a season as a starter, during his first year of DI ball. Let's say, conservatively, that he would have had 8.0 sacks had he been starting all year. Multiply that over three seasons like Dunlap and Morgan had and he'd be sitting at 24.0 career sacks. And that is assuming he wasn't going to keep getting better and better.

Edit: I think Maryland's Bruce Campbell is the prototypical Workout Warrior in this draft.

Bosanac01
02-25-2010, 11:32 AM
Bruce Campbell will have the best career of anyone in this draft.

Scott Wright
02-25-2010, 11:58 AM
Bruce Campbell will have the best career of anyone in this draft.

Mrs. Campbell?

I like the sig too!

Mr.Regular
02-25-2010, 12:00 PM
Bruce is a beast. Yes he's a specimen and will blow up the combine but it's not like he sucked in college. In fact I think he was quite good I think. I don't think it's out of the question that he's a top 10 pick.

bitonti
02-25-2010, 12:03 PM
Personally, I don't think the production is so bad. 6.5 sacks in half a season as a starter, during his first year of DI ball. Let's say, conservatively, that he would have had 8.0 sacks had he been starting all year. Multiply that over three seasons like Dunlap and Morgan had and he'd be sitting at 24.0 career sacks. And that is assuming he wasn't going to keep getting better and better.


call me a traditionalist but i dont like projections of sacks. I like actual sacks ;)

not to say JPP is a bad player but to go top 5 or even top 15 seems reachy.

Bosanac01
02-25-2010, 12:05 PM
I like the sig too!

I figured you'd like it. haha

SenorGato
02-25-2010, 12:12 PM
Personally, I don't think the production is so bad. 6.5 sacks in half a season as a starter, during his first year of DI ball. Let's say, conservatively, that he would have had 8.0 sacks had he been starting all year. Multiply that over three seasons like Dunlap and Morgan had and he'd be sitting at 24.0 career sacks. And that is assuming he wasn't going to keep getting better and better.


That's a really flawed way of looking at it. There's 0 context, and projecting something like sacks just can't happen accurately.

How would he do without Selvie on the line getting attention?

How would he do once teams focus on him?

The guy is the definition of workout warrior right now...

Clarkw267
02-25-2010, 12:40 PM
That's a really flawed way of looking at it. There's 0 context, and projecting something like sacks just can't happen accurately.

How would he do without Selvie on the line getting attention?

How would he do once teams focus on him?

The guy is the definition of workout warrior right now...

How can you be a workout warrior without even working out yet?

The reality is that JPP shows the skills and physical abilities that NFL teams covet in a pass rusher ON TAPE.

His tape shows his tremendous first step, acceleration, and closing speed. He consistently beat the OTs he was matched up against, he just had issues with knowing when to break down and contain. This is something that NFL coaches will see, and take a chance on very high in the draft.

big0mar
02-25-2010, 02:07 PM
That's a really flawed way of looking at it. There's 0 context, and projecting something like sacks just can't happen accurately.

How would he do without Selvie on the line getting attention?

How would he do once teams focus on him?

The guy is the definition of workout warrior right now...

If you watch USF, you'll see that JPP got double-teamed much more than Selvie.

The guy was a monster on the field, against the run and pass. He seemed to have an uncanny ability to move around his blocker and make a play on the ball carrier.

Only issue I have with JPP right now is his strength and stamina. But both those will be worked out once he gets in an NFL program.

ThePudge
02-25-2010, 02:38 PM
That's a really flawed way of looking at it. There's 0 context, and projecting something like sacks just can't happen accurately.

How would he do without Selvie on the line getting attention?

How would he do once teams focus on him?

The guy is the definition of workout warrior right now...

Have you watched George Selvie play in the past year and have you ever watched Pierre-Paul?

etk
02-25-2010, 03:27 PM
I think you have Pierre-Paul and Dunlap confused.

JPP is twice the natural athlete that Morgan is. And he is extremely explosive. One of the quickest 1st steps I've seen. He's nothing like Jamaal Anderson.

Now if you were to compare Dunlap to Anderson that would make sense. Both were big guys that had solid physical tools, but had questionable motors to go along with them.

I'm getting really sick of this "wrong player" stuff. I JUST watched several minutes of video on JPP before I made that post. He's not an exceptional athlete on film. He's a decent athlete overall, around the same level as Morgan, only Morgan is more proportionate and stronger. Anderson and JPP look very similar if you compare their Jr. film.

Dunlap is not even close to Anderson in any way. Anderson can't pass rush for his life, but he still managed to start for a few years and do a good job against the run. Dunlap is an overall pylon and I wouldn't touch him until the 5th round, if at all.

Clarkw267
02-25-2010, 06:10 PM
I'm getting really sick of this "wrong player" stuff. I JUST watched several minutes of video on JPP before I made that post. He's not an exceptional athlete on film. He's a decent athlete overall, around the same level as Morgan, only Morgan is more proportionate and stronger. Anderson and JPP look very similar if you compare their Jr. film.

Dunlap is not even close to Anderson in any way. Anderson can't pass rush for his life, but he still managed to start for a few years and do a good job against the run. Dunlap is an overall pylon and I wouldn't touch him until the 5th round, if at all.

Then if it's not the wrong player, the problem is that you just don't know how to evaluate a Defensive End, or athleticism in general.

To say that Pierre-Paul is a "decent athlete overall, around the same level as Morgan", is just completely and utterly incorrect.

SenorGato
02-25-2010, 07:44 PM
Then if it's not the wrong player, the problem is that you just don't know how to evaluate a Defensive End, or athleticism in general.

To say that Pierre-Paul is a "decent athlete overall, around the same level as Morgan", is just completely and utterly incorrect.

On a football field? I can see the argument. Pierre-Paul's in game athleticism has never really blown me away either, and I'm someone who actually likes watching USF play.

Backflips on a Sunday afternoon though? Pierre-Paul all day.

superman
02-25-2010, 10:51 PM
just saw some on nfl network today and jpp reminds me of aundray bruce

SenorGato
02-26-2010, 06:14 AM
How can you be a workout warrior without even working out yet?

The reality is that JPP shows the skills and physical abilities that NFL teams covet in a pass rusher ON TAPE.

His tape shows his tremendous first step, acceleration, and closing speed. He consistently beat the OTs he was matched up against, he just had issues with knowing when to break down and contain. This is something that NFL coaches will see, and take a chance on very high in the draft.

By getting hyped based on one season of production and the ability to do backflips.

As far as on tape....I agree with etk. Nothing special on tape...and his life was totally made easy by beating Big East RTs while teams were more focused on Selvie.

Morton
02-26-2010, 08:47 AM
The more I watch tape of JPP the more I begin to think that he could, potentially, be a BEAST in the NFL.

Right now he looks extremely lanky and raw. But even at this undeveloped stage, he seems capable of beating most tackles with ease. His long arms allow him to push off and work his way around tackles, and bat down many passes. And this was his first real year of college football, too.

What's promising is that his frame looks as if it could easily add quite a few pounds of bulk without sacrificing much speed or athleticism. If he can manage to do that, I think he can do some serious damage in the NFL. He is obviously a project, however.

bitonti
02-26-2010, 09:20 AM
im all for taking projects just not with a top 5 pick. the place for projects is round 2.

etk
02-26-2010, 09:30 AM
Then if it's not the wrong player, the problem is that you just don't know how to evaluate a Defensive End, or athleticism in general.

To say that Pierre-Paul is a "decent athlete overall, around the same level as Morgan", is just completely and utterly incorrect.

lol....I'm not worried about that one. If there's one thing I know when it comes to football...

Watch the friggin tape instead of speaking your opinion as fact. JPP does not look like an exceptional athlete on film. 3 other people said the same thing after I did. We all don't know football I guess.

Clarkw267
02-26-2010, 11:26 AM
lol....I'm not worried about that one. If there's one thing I know when it comes to football...

Watch the friggin tape instead of speaking your opinion as fact. JPP does not look like an exceptional athlete on film. 3 other people said the same thing after I did. We all don't know football I guess.

If the 4 of you watch Pierre-Paul and come away with the opinion that he doesn't look more athletic than Derrick Morgan than yes... I guess you don't know football, or have some vision issues.

Also don't come at me with this "watch the friggin tape" nonsense. You probably watched a 5 minute youtube video of the guy.

I've watched 4 USF games in their entirety. Teams were not focusing on Selvie as the year progressed. In fact Selvie didn't even look like a draftable prospect at times. Pierre-Paul spent a lot of his time in opposing backfields, and comes of the ball in a hurry. In those 4 games alone I counted 10 plays where JPP completely beat the OT and was in position to get a sack or TFL, but he overran the play instead of breaking down and containing the runner. The guy is an exceptional athlete, and has a good motor, yet he is inexperienced and because of that doesn't play instinctively.

BigBanger
02-26-2010, 11:41 AM
Personally, I don't think the production is so bad. 6.5 sacks in half a season as a starter, during his first year of DI ball. Let's say, conservatively, that he would have had 8.0 sacks had he been starting all year. Multiply that over three seasons like Dunlap and Morgan had and he'd be sitting at 24.0 career sacks. And that is assuming he wasn't going to keep getting better and better.
This is one of the most shockingly stupid things I've seen on these boards, and coming from you, this is pretty surprising. You seem to act like this hyperbole is some sort of factual argument that somehow proves something favorably to JPP. In all reality it just shows the lengths you have to go to in order to prove how good he is. If you like him, you like him, but when you write a blog stating that he's unproductive (and specifically state his 6.5 sacks as being the problem), then come back here when he's getting top 5 hype two months later, and all of a sudden you're talking about the 24 career sacks he didn't get in college. I'm sure you realize how ridiculous that sounds.

Let's say, realistically, that JPP had 6.5 sacks in his one year of DI Ball. Let's just say that and attempt to stay grounded in reality. If not, Brandon Graham had 110 career sacks and that trumps JPPs inflated 24 career sacks.

WCH
02-27-2010, 01:15 AM
Scott, I love what you do, and view you as a sort of Open-Source Mel Kiper. I actually think that your views are more influential than Kiper's are, at this point. You might not be on ESPN, but you do reach a larger audience. Nevertheless, I have to say, with the sincerest of respect...


Personally, I don't think the production is so bad. 6.5 sacks in half a season as a starter, during his first year of DI ball. Let's say, conservatively, that he would have had 8.0 sacks had he been starting all year. Multiply that over three seasons like Dunlap and Morgan had and he'd be sitting at 24.0 career sacks. And that is assuming he wasn't going to keep getting better and better.


And if a frog had wings, then it wouldn't bump it's ass when it hops...

Scott Wright
02-27-2010, 06:10 AM
All I meant to do by posting that hypothetical production is point out that if you extrapolate it over a normal college career of three or four seasons it compares very favorably to others who are perceived to be the top defensive end prospects in this draft. Let's face it, when you are talking about a prospect with as little experience as Jason Pierre-Paul there is a fair amount of projection involved. It boils down to whether or not you're a risk taker. If you're satisfied with a double then grab Derrick Morgan. If you want to swing for a home run then take Pierre-Paul.

SenorGato
02-27-2010, 10:41 AM
All I meant to do by posting that hypothetical production is point out that if you extrapolate it over a normal college career of three or four seasons it compares very favorably to others who are perceived to be the top defensive end prospects in this draft. Let's face it, when you are talking about a prospect with as little experience as Jason Pierre-Paul there is a fair amount of projection involved. It boils down to whether or not you're a risk taker. If you're satisfied with a double then grab Derrick Morgan. If you want to swing for a home run then take Pierre-Paul.

The problem with that is that it makes absolutely no sense to do that. It assumes a certain level of production that can be maintained despite the fact there's no proof that he can maintain it.

JPP had alot of advantages this year...Selvie was still there to take some attention off of him...he's facing Big East RTs...Shiny New Toy Syndrome drives his stock up....Just those 3 alone are huge.

BigBanger
02-27-2010, 10:50 AM
The problem with that is that it makes absolutely no sense to do that. It assumes a certain level of production that can be maintained despite the fact there's no proof that he can maintain it.
That's just way too much common sense in one reply.

The guy doesn't have a normal college career. We can't act like he did.

Morton
02-27-2010, 11:03 AM
That's just way too much common sense in one reply.

The guy doesn't have a normal college career. We can't act like he did.

But then thing is - if he *did* have a normal college career, his numbers would probably look similar to what Scott is proposing.

All of the Combine and the Draft is nothing but that: extrapolation. You are extrapolating what a prospect's NFL career will look like based on their college production. So if it makes sense to extrapolate a Pro Bowl career for a guy like Suh based on measurables and college production, why not extrapolate the same for JPP's college career based on his measurables and (limited) existing production?

FUNBUNCHER
02-27-2010, 11:09 AM
SO much of football is about projection anyway, so it's not like SW is coming out of left field.
It's how AA teams are selected, and projection is the overriding philosophy in the NFL draft.

I still think JPP is an outstanding prospect, just not in the top 5.

And his lack of production, yeah it scares me, however the few times I've watched JPP, it looked like the OT across from him wasn't even coming close to blocking him.

BigBanger
02-27-2010, 11:14 AM
But then thing is - if he *did* have a normal college career, his numbers would probably look similar to what Scott is proposing.

All of the Combine and the Draft is nothing but that: extrapolation. You are extrapolating what a prospect's NFL career will look like based on their college production. So if it makes sense to extrapolate a Pro Bowl career for a guy like Suh based on measurables and college production, why not extrapolate the same for JPP's college career based on his measurables and (limited) existing production?
Then use his 6.5 sacks. No one else is padding the stats of Suh. He earned it and went out on the field and actually produced. He was as dominate as a college player gets. JPP wasn't, but if you want to say he had 24 career sacks in three years of DI ball, then go right ahead. You look like a fool for saying, but whatever.

This is the most ******** thing I've ever heard of and it's getting more and more ******** with every post.

SenorGato
02-27-2010, 11:31 AM
But then thing is - if he *did* have a normal college career, his numbers would probably look similar to what Scott is proposing.

All of the Combine and the Draft is nothing but that: extrapolation. You are extrapolating what a prospect's NFL career will look like based on their college production. So if it makes sense to extrapolate a Pro Bowl career for a guy like Suh based on measurables and college production, why not extrapolate the same for JPP's college career based on his measurables and (limited) existing production?

Yes, there is projection done at the NFL combine. Unfortunately for Scott and those that think that idea makes sense, it's not "hey, lets throw on another 1.5 sacks to his total this year and assume he'd do that for 3-4 years."

What if I assume that if he played 3 years he'd be exposed as a fraud? I certainly don't see him as impressive as people keep saying.

Look at what usually happens to a prospect when given enough years to analyze him...his flaws become more obvious and easier to attack and they drop. Very few guys remain good prospects for 3-4 years in a row....those that do are usually mid-rounders/"solid upside" guys.

OK, I kinda made the last part up...but I personally think there's alot of truth in that.

Bosanac01
02-27-2010, 04:50 PM
Didn't expect JPP to weight in more then Derrick Morgan. 270 Means that he'll most likely end up at LE, and can stand to add even more with his frame.

Morton
02-27-2010, 05:03 PM
Didn't expect JPP to weight in more then Derrick Morgan. 270 Means that he'll most likely end up at LE, and can stand to add even more with his frame.

Yeah, he looks really lanky as it is.

I could easily see him adding 20-30lbs without losing much athleticism. He *could* become a beast at the next level.

Complex
02-27-2010, 07:21 PM
JPP will run a low 4.6 maybe even a 4.5

619
02-27-2010, 07:57 PM
JPP will run a low 4.6 maybe even a 4.5

I'm going out on a limb and calling a sub-4.5 time. :)

RaiderNation
02-27-2010, 09:10 PM
I predict a sub 4.55 40 from JPP

energizerbunny
02-27-2010, 10:19 PM
I don't feel like reading this entire thread, but JPP makes alot of plays that never show up on the stat sheet...

ex. Holding the POI on an outside zone & hitting the QB as he releases

Bosanac01
02-27-2010, 10:45 PM
JPP will run a 4.65

SenorGato
02-27-2010, 10:48 PM
JPP will run a 4.65

I'm going with this one. If he goes in the 3rd, I think he ends up being a Justin Tuck-esque player early in his career. Once he's developed he'll get the starters job at DE.

I just don't get or buy this top 10 stuff.

jsagan77
02-27-2010, 10:55 PM
A guy rises this fast every year and ends up being mediocre...

ElectricEye
02-27-2010, 11:00 PM
4.6 anything would be Mario-esque. We'll see with him. Seems to be a lot of good athletes on both sides of the line this year.

Bosanac01
03-01-2010, 01:01 PM
JPP will run a 4.65

Nailed it. He was still very impressive. We learned nothing new from him in this combine, except maybe that he was really ugly. Besides that, he didn't hurt himself.

LizardState
03-01-2010, 03:59 PM
PFW Draft Guide says he's head & shoulders above the other DEs & likens him to The Freak Kearse b/c both have that freakish incredible burst & quickness. He's nothing but upside....

He only started at South Florida for half a season & isn't all that physically strong or plays the run very well, but he's a pure pass rusher with 6.5 sacks in each season there. I think he's a better fit as a passing down rush specialist & b/c of his freakish athleticism & quickness some team will draft him in the4 1st rd. & pay him that kind of $ even for a situational player

Bosanac01
03-01-2010, 04:03 PM
The guy did 14 back flips in a row. He better get paid.

keylime_5
03-01-2010, 04:54 PM
he can do backflips on the way to the QB and has a great motor. If he had more experience imagine where he'd be at at this point in his career. It's a little higher risk of a pick, but taking Pierre-Paul top 10 is a very calculated one IMO.

keylime_5
03-01-2010, 04:55 PM
I predict a sub 4.55 40 from JPP

he probably would've gotten around there if his running technique wasn't so sloppy. That's one big advantage the track guys like Holliday and Ford have.

CC.SD
03-01-2010, 05:00 PM
The guy did 14 back flips in a row. He better get paid.

I am board with this theory.

superman
03-01-2010, 05:22 PM
he probably would've gotten around there if his running technique wasn't so sloppy. That's one big advantage the track guys like Holliday and Ford have.

you'd think a top prospect would be smart enough to work on something like that before the combine

bitonti
03-02-2010, 07:30 PM
he had 7 and a half more backflips than career quarterback sacks.

toonsterwu
03-04-2010, 07:39 PM
I am intrigued by JPP. He's not really the "Demarcus Ware" guy that some peg him as (I haven't been around, so don't know what the boards are saying). He should be able to fill out to about 280-285, so what he very well could be is your classic 4-3 rush end.

Is he my number 1 DE? Probably. But ... that's a very unwilling nod. I don't love this DE class at the top, and believe you'll find great value with the 2nd/3rd tier guys, in the 2nd/3rd round. But ... Everson Griffen, IMO, doesn't play as explosive as he times, and Derrick Morgan, well, I worry about him against the run. Either Morgan or Paul would be my number 1.

Right now, I have Morgan ahead in my mock due to the team I have him going to being one that I believes would value Morgan's career productivity more.

V.I.P
03-04-2010, 08:36 PM
Everson Griffen, IMO, doesn't play as explosive as he times

My exact thoughts. Someones gonna over draft him.

LonghornsLegend
03-04-2010, 08:44 PM
I am intrigued by JPP. He's not really the "Demarcus Ware" guy that some peg him as (I haven't been around, so don't know what the boards are saying). He should be able to fill out to about 280-285, so what he very well could be is your classic 4-3 rush end.

Is he my number 1 DE? Probably. But ... that's a very unwilling nod. I don't love this DE class at the top, and believe you'll find great value with the 2nd/3rd tier guys, in the 2nd/3rd round. But ... Everson Griffen, IMO, doesn't play as explosive as he times, and Derrick Morgan, well, I worry about him against the run. Either Morgan or Paul would be my number 1.

Right now, I have Morgan ahead in my mock due to the team I have him going to being one that I believes would value Morgan's career productivity more.

I'm guessing your putting Brandon Graham with the OLB's then? Because I can see an argument for him above the questions about those other guys, but it depends on if you see him solely as a rush backer, or a 4-3 End. He seems like he's got the frame and ability to make it work for whoever wants him.

ElectricEye
03-04-2010, 08:45 PM
[QUOTE=toonsterwu;2049401 Everson Griffen, IMO, doesn't play as explosive as he times.[/QUOTE]

He also didn't look particularly comfortable in linebacker drills, which a lot of teams were excited about seeing him in.

By the way, welcome back toonster. A few people have stepped up this year, but the more wisdom around the better.

SenorGato
03-04-2010, 11:35 PM
I do like Everson Griffen....he and Kindle are pretty close.

Still think the steal of the draft at DE is Hardy...who'll end up in the late 2nd or 3rd.

WCH
03-06-2010, 01:11 AM
he had 7 and a half more backflips than career quarterback sacks.
Q.E.D.

???

Bosanac01
03-06-2010, 01:46 AM
I do like Everson Griffen....he and Kindle are pretty close.

Still think the steal of the draft at DE is Hardy...who'll end up in the late 2nd or 3rd.

Hardy looks more like a 3rd or 4th right now.

SenorGato
03-06-2010, 02:02 AM
Hardy looks more like a late steal now.

Fixed.

Ten.

Sniper
03-06-2010, 08:34 AM
No, JPP isn't the No. 1 DE. Why? Because Brandon Graham is.

bigfreak314
03-06-2010, 08:58 AM
Brandon Graham is going to be a beast to which ever team he falls to. JPP needs good coaching, some one to work on his technique and everything else in order to pan out. I fear that with the 4.6 40 some team is going to over draft the poor kid and demand a lot of instant production, which is never good for raw talent type player

batsandgats
04-09-2010, 11:46 AM
South Florida DE Jason Pierre-Paul has reportedly failed to impress during pre-draft interview sessions with NFL teams.

Sources tell Profootballtalk that JPP has given "at times nonsensical answers to fairly basic questions," and may lack maturity

even without that I don't think he a top DE in this draft.

Bosanac01
04-09-2010, 12:10 PM
JPP will certantly fall due to his lack of brain cells, same with kindle.

K Train
04-09-2010, 12:25 PM
i was actually thinking this earlier today how the JPP bandwagon came and went really quick here lol

KennyPowers
04-11-2010, 05:50 PM
Does anyone know his wonderlic score? I need a good laugh