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Supporting Caste
03-03-2010, 10:43 AM
I see people on this forum (Chiefs fans?) consistently scoff at the idea of Kansas City taking an offensive tackle at pick 5.

Why?

I realize the defense is (really) garbage. I do. But I also saw KC give up tons of pressure off the edges almost every time Cassel went back to throw.

I think the investment in Cassel was a stupid idea, but now that the investment is made, does it not make sense to try to give that investment a chance to be worth something? If the KC line plays like it does last year, the Chiefs are ****ed, and Cassel is crying like a little *****.

The only argument I can see is that they should take Eric Berry instead, which is reasonable because he rules.

yourfavestoner
03-03-2010, 10:48 AM
Most of the Chiefs fans just think that there isn't a tackle worth taking at 5. They also don't want to move Albert around. Maybe that tune will change after the performances of these LTs at the combine.

I don't see the point in drafting McClain at 5, either. You can get the same player in Spikes with one of their second round picks.

Warpig
03-03-2010, 10:48 AM
Here's my ideal scenario for the Chiefs:

Give up one of their 2nd rounders for one of the LT's the Saints have available (Brown, Bushrod, or Strief)

Draft Dez Bryant at #5

Then draft to fill in their numerous holes with the rest of their picks.

This accomplishes 2 things they need badly; Improves their O-line to protect their $65 million dollar QB, and gives that QB a weapon to utilize in the passing game to pair with Bowe.

But since my theory makes sense, it will never happen.

no bare feet
03-03-2010, 10:52 AM
I don't know if its scoffing, but the need for an RT is probably number 6 on their list of needs. Safety, OLB, ILB, C, G are greater needs.

Question, I'd ask, without some know it all undertones that the OP has exuded would be:

Would starting Okung/Bulaga, who are further away in the process than Albert(who has many starts at that position on an NFL level) from being a premium starting LT, at LT benefit KC? That would set their line back another year or two, shifting Albert too another new position and putting a rookie with aero NFL experience at one of the most important positions on offense.

Would drafting Okung/Bulaga and putting that person at RT be the best for the offensive line?

zachsaints52
03-03-2010, 10:56 AM
Here's my ideal scenario for the Chiefs:

Give up one of their 2nd rounders for one of the LT's the Saints have available (Brown, Bushrod, or Strief)


Strief isn't worth a 2nd, but I wish! Bushrod would probably be a 2nd, and Brown is more then a 2nd. If we give up Bushrod for your 2nd I would be a very happy person.

T-RICH49
03-03-2010, 11:01 AM
because you said it our defense is garbage.we have no S's, DJ is our only NFL caliber ILB and who knows if he'll be back.It HAS to be McClain or Berry

yourfavestoner
03-03-2010, 11:03 AM
I don't know if its scoffing, but the need for an RT is probably number 6 on their list of needs. Safety, OLB, ILB, C, G are greater needs.

Question, I'd ask, without some know it all undertones that the OP has exuded would be:

Would starting Okung/Bulaga, who are further away in the process than Albert(who has many starts at that position on an NFL level) from being a premium starting LT, at LT benefit KC? That would set their line back another year or two, shifting Albert too another new position and putting a rookie with aero NFL experience at one of the most important positions on offense.

Would drafting Okung/Bulaga and putting that person at RT be the best for the offensive line?

It might hurt them a little this year, but they aren't close to contending anyways. That's what I've been trying to get through to KC fans all offseason. You're not going to win this year anyways, so draft what's best fot the long term potential for your team.

Brandon Albert could turn into a very nice player at LT for KC. However, let's not forget that he's a converted guard who is just learning how to play tackle. His best position and most natural fit could very well end up being at RT. It's not like they'd be trying to get him to move from offensive line to defensive line - it's a move that's totally doable. If you can play LT, you sure as hell be able to play RT. He's certainly not a reason to deter them from drafting another LT, especially if the staff feels that the value is there for one at 5.

Also, wasn't Albert drafted with the intent that if he didn't work out at T, he could be moved inside to guard and be a perennial pro bowler there as well?

Either way, I think drafting a tackle at 5 improves TWO positions for them over the long term. Maybe not next year, but the Chiefs don't really have a reason to care about next year anyways.

killxswitch
03-03-2010, 11:05 AM
because you said it our defense is garbage.we have no S's, DJ is our only NFL caliber ILB and who knows if he'll be back.It HAS to be McClain or Berry

Which kind of ILB do you guys need? I am not as familiar with the 3-4 LB responsibilities as I am 4-3 but my (limited) understanding is that one tends to me more of a thumper/run stopper and the other is more responsible for TE/RB pass coverage.

H.O.O.D
03-03-2010, 11:05 AM
The kid was flagged 10 times surrendered 9 sacks out at LT. If Okung slides by Detroit and Washington, then KC will give serious thought to it and could then either move Albert to the right side or slide him inside.

When you watch him out there I think it's pretty clear he is not the longterm answer at LT. He is average as a LT and it is not the best place on the line for him.

T-RICH49
03-03-2010, 11:06 AM
ALbert got better as the year went along so don't make it sound as if he sucked all year.taking a RT at 5 is just plain STUPID

T-RICH49
03-03-2010, 11:07 AM
Which kind of ILB do you guys need? I am not as familiar with the 3-4 LB responsibilities as I am 4-3 but my (limited) understanding is that one tends to me more of a thumper/run stopper and the other is more responsible for TE/RB pass coverage.

not sure but you'd have to think McClain would be a Crennel/Pioli type of player

yourfavestoner
03-03-2010, 11:09 AM
The kid was flagged 10 times surrendered 9 sacks out at LT. If Okung slides by Detroit and Washington, then KC will give serious thought to it and could then either move Albert to the right side or slide him inside.

When you watch him out there I think it's pretty clear he is not the longterm answer at LT. He is average as a LT and it is not the best place on the line for him.

Exactly my sentiments.

Saying "we have Brandon Albert" is NOT a good reason to pass on a potential franchise tackle.

H.O.O.D
03-03-2010, 11:09 AM
because you said it our defense is garbage.we have no S's, DJ is our only NFL caliber ILB and who knows if he'll be back.It HAS to be McClain or Berry

Personally as a non-Chiefs fan, your best bet would be to aggressively pursue Dansby in FA and taken Okung in the first and then go after N.Allen/C.Thomas/T.Cody in the 2nd. If for some reason one of them is not there in the 2nd start to look at the pass rushers who might be of value there.

Grizzlegom
03-03-2010, 11:10 AM
I think its a good possibility that they take an OT at 5 but i think Berry, if available, is the best possible selection.

zachsaints52
03-03-2010, 11:12 AM
I think its a good possibility that they take an OT at 5 but i think Berry, if available, is the best possible selection.

McClain FTW!!!

H.O.O.D
03-03-2010, 11:15 AM
ALbert got better as the year went along so don't make it sound as if he sucked all year.taking a RT at 5 is just plain STUPID

Got better, slightly yes but it is not his best fit. You would be taking a LT at 5 and moving Albert elsewhere on the line (RT/OG).

LT is extremely important for the Chiefs after all the money they threw at Cassell. I never said or made it sound like he sucked all I said was that he was average as a LT and upgrading to an above average LT and moving Albert to a position where he has a chance to be a better player is a wiser move for the team, it would get the most out of the line.

Grizzlegom
03-03-2010, 11:18 AM
McClain FTW!!!

In my opinion, McClain would be a major reach. He's been moving down my board to the point where I no longer have him in the top ten. Granted that didn't stop them from taking Tyson Jackson last year but I just don't like his value there.

yourfavestoner
03-03-2010, 11:25 AM
ALbert got better as the year went along so don't make it sound as if he sucked all year.taking a RT at 5 is just plain STUPID

You wouldn't be taking a LT at 5. In essence, you'd be taking a LT/RT or LT/G combo at 5. You would be upgrading TWO POSITIONS.

Albert didn't "suck all year." Great. If not drafting somebody because the guy you have didn't suck all year is a good reason, I guess Washington shouldn't draft a QB because Jason Campbell didn't suck all year. Jacksonville shouldn't draft a DE because Derrick Harvey didn't suck all year.

Like I said, I'm not trying to rip on the guy, or imply that he sucks. I think he could develop into a very nice player in the NFL. But the dude was a guard in college. We still have no idea if he will ever develop into great LT. He likely has a better chance of developing into a great G or RT.

YotoJets007
03-03-2010, 11:56 AM
I strongly advise against drafting OT to replace Albert but it is all up to Pioli.

If drafting LT in top 5 then you have to be ensure that that chosen LT is phenomenal. Davis? Campbell? Okung? They will give up too many sacks on his rookie season and they also will suffer many mental errors. Albert survived the sophomore slump that is actually his first experience as real NFL OT. Albert's rookie season is forgettable because Thigpen was mobile and Chiefs played college spread offense.

Albert is not the reason why offense has been strugglilng. It is Cassell, It is other side of OL. It is WR. It is Haley's strictness. It is blah blah blah. Chemistry is not there.

I think Chiefs should sign Pace or healthier OT instead. It makes sense more than drafting OT in top 5 to replace former first round OT.

Splat
03-03-2010, 12:00 PM
My thoughts from the Chiefs board.

If Berry is off the board I see the Chiefs drafting an OT I don't see any other D player they would value that high.

I love McClain as much as any one but I just don't see the Chiefs rating him that high like it or not.

vidae
03-03-2010, 12:07 PM
I've been saying it for months but Albert is fine at LT. He had to get used to playing a different scheme and at reduced weight, but in the last 6 games of the season he was almost perfect. You guys forget that Haley fired our OC a week before the season started. No offense would move the ball under those circumstances. He changed the schemes and playbook so everyone had to learn from square one.

Over the course of the season, our offense got better, and our defense got much worse. We gave up almost 300 yards on the ground to Jerome Harrison. There is no question in my mind that the pick absolutely has to be a difference maker on defense.

You take the defensive stud in the first round and then the center/guard in the second. Give Albert another year to develop and work under Charlie Weis. You said it yourself, we aren't going to contend for anything anyway, so why draft an OT who potentially would not be an upgrade now when you could get a once in a decade player like Eric Berry?

Trust me, when 90% of the KC fans, who know the team better than anyone else, are saying that the player should be McClain or Berry, you should take that into account. We've seen every game and we know what we're talking about.

Here is a link to a post in the Chiefs forum that says what I'm trying to say a lot better than I'm saying it.

http://draftcountdown.com/forum/showthread.php?p=2046361&#post2046361

Splat
03-03-2010, 12:09 PM
I've been saying it for months but Albert is fine at LT. He had to get used to playing a different scheme and at reduced weight, but in the last 6 games of the season he gave up zero sacks and in the last month he gave up zero QB pressures. He held Elvis Dumervil, who led the league in sacks, to one tackle in the final game of the season.

You guys forget that Haley fired our OC a week before the season started. No offense would move the ball under those circumstances. He changed the schemes and playbook so everyone had to learn from square one.

Over the course of the season, our offense got better, and our defense got much worse. We gave up almost 300 yards on the ground to Jerome Harrison. There is no question in my mind that the pick absolutely has to be a difference maker on defense.

You take the defensive stud in the first round and then the center/guard in the second. Give Albert another year to develop and work under Charlie Weis. You said it yourself, we aren't going to contend for anything anyway, so why draft an OT who potentially would not be an upgrade now when you could get a once in a decade player like Eric Berry?

And I completely 100% disagree with the Spikes == McClain thing. I've talked to a lot of people (JBond the most recent, on his podcast) and I can't find any draft expert who agrees with that assessment. The closer we get to April the less likely it seems that we'd take him anyway, but our biggest need is ILB and he'd fit Pioli and Crennel like a glove.

Trust me, when 90% of the KC fans, who know the team better than anyone else, are saying that the player should be McClain or Berry, you should listen. We've seen every game and we know what we're talking about.

That's all well and good and I agree with most of it but it's about what the Chiefs think not the fans.

Do you really see the Chiefs seeing McClain as a top 5 pick? If the Chiefs don't and Berry is gone then what?

ToldLikeItIs
03-03-2010, 12:13 PM
Bryan's your guy boys.

vidae
03-03-2010, 12:18 PM
My thoughts from the Chiefs board.

If Berry is off the board I see the Chiefs drafting an OT I don't see any other D player they would value that high.

I love McClain as much as any one but I just don't see the Chiefs rating him that high like it or not.

The closer it gets to April the less likely it seems we'll take McClain, I agree with you, but I'd absolutely have McClain above OT on our boards.

I've asked around a lot (most recently JB on his podcast) and I can't find anyone who agrees that Spikes and McClain are the same player. I've heard that McClain is Spikes, only better at everything, and I've heard Spikes called McClainUltraLite, but nowhere, from any expert, have I heard that they're essentially the same player.

It also makes me laugh when people say that McClain isn't worthy of the top 5, but have him going to the Browns at 7. Do those two spots really make that big of a difference in the grand scheme of things?

That's all well and good and I agree with most of it but it's about what the Chiefs think not the fans.

Do you really see the Chiefs seeing McClain as a top 5 pick? If the Chiefs don't and Berry is gone then what?

I absolutely agree that OT could be the pick in that scenario, and I've agreed with you on it on multiple occasions, I'm just saying that it shouldn't be. At first glance it seems like the offensive line was absolute garbage but if you look deeper it tells a different story.

But I do agree that if Berry is gone it absolutely could be a tackle, no question.

Splat
03-03-2010, 12:22 PM
I'm in no way saying that McClain is not worth the 5th pick, I'm saying I don't think the Chiefs believe he is.

If they don't want McClain and Berry is gone what other D player do Chiefs fans want?

I can't think of one that I would have rated higher then the top OT.

vidae
03-03-2010, 12:25 PM
I don't think I do either. My top 5 goes McClain/Berry, Bryant, Okung, Bulaga. I would take McClain or Berry before any OT and not look back.

If Berry is gone, and McClain doesn't test well at his pro-day, wow at interviews, or we're unable to trade back, I seriously doubt he'd be the pick. I think they would easily take Okung or Bulaga in that case. I just disagree with it.

bitonti
03-03-2010, 12:50 PM
here's the thing about mcclain - there's almost no 3-4 ILB in this draft worth talking about - not just in round 1 but in any round - all the LB this year have size issues or are better in a 4-3.

people projecting the Chiefs take an OT are like people projecting the Rams take a QB: it's ignoring what these franchises have done to date and their tendencies. McClain is a saban guy, paoli has ties to saban... mcclain is known as a coach on the field type that makes everyone around him better... in other words exactly what they need if Berry is gone.

villagewarrior
03-03-2010, 01:00 PM
After reading some of this discussion I'm pretty sure a lot of people weren't watching Branden Albert play last year or the year before. With a year playing at the weight expected of him and in the system his coach will be running and two years of experience as an NFL left tackle I am supremely confident that Albert will be playing at a very high level next year. I am also confident that none of the tackles will play left tackle as well as Albert will this year.

Beyond that, the bulk of the pressure on Cassel came from the massive breaches along the middle of the offensive line. The interior offensive line is where the Chiefs need to upgrade first, with offensive tackle being about a fourth thought after upgrading the linebackers, the pass rush, the safeties, and a nose tackle.

MizzouBig12
03-03-2010, 01:06 PM
Although O-line help would be great, I don't see any lineman worth the number 5 pick. If the Chefs have to stay there, then Berry (if he's still on the board) would be best. I would love the Chiefs to be able to slide back a few spots and pick up Bulaga or Iupati around number 11. There are going to be plenty of good safeties, LB's, and intriguing CB's in later rounds. A smart, mean-streak guy like Pat Angerer should still be around in the 4th round or so.

bitonti
03-03-2010, 01:22 PM
A smart, mean-streak guy like Pat Angerer should still be around in the 4th round or so.

pat angerer is 6'0" 230
rolando mcclain is 6'3" 255

these aren't similar players... aj edds is more similar to mcclain than angerer.

RealityCheck
03-03-2010, 01:38 PM
I agree.

KC needs to make Matt Cassel worth of his paycheck.
That would happen if they drafted the #1 WR in the draft, Dez Bryant.
Chiefs fans around here are begging for Berry and McClain. Rolando isn't a Top 5 pick at all, and I don't see the Chiefs going Berry.

The Chiefs will draft a Oklahoma State Cowboy. It depends on Dan Snyder whether if it's Okung or Bryant.

Splat
03-03-2010, 01:42 PM
I agree.

KC needs to make Matt Cassel worth of his paycheck.
That would happen if they drafted the #1 WR in the draft, Dez Bryant.
Chiefs fans around here are begging for Berry and McClain. Rolando isn't a Top 5 pick at all, and I don't see the Chiefs going Berry.

The Chiefs will draft a Oklahoma State Cowboy. It depends on Dan Snyder whether if it's Okung or Bryant.

I agree the Chiefs won't take McClain but Berry is in play safety is arguably their biggest need and Berry is a rare talent.

The question is will Berry still be on the board?

Hermstheman83
03-03-2010, 04:18 PM
pat angerer is 6'0" 230
rolando mcclain is 6'3" 255

these aren't similar players... aj edds is more similar to mcclain than angerer.

I think Edds is probably a better fit for KC. he's a "bigger" linebacker, which...Romeo likes his boys' big. Edds is probably a little more cerebral than Angerer is too...BUT Angerer is a mean, bad mofo.

RealityCheck
03-03-2010, 04:35 PM
I agree the Chiefs won't take McClain but Berry is in play safety is arguably their biggest need and Berry is a rare talent.

The question is will Berry still be on the board?
With the current situation, it is more likely that Berry will go #7 than #3.

prock
03-03-2010, 04:44 PM
If I am the Chiefs, this is my Big Board:
Eric Berry
Dez Bryant
Russell Okung
Rolando McClain

Someone said it is a waste drafting a RT at 5, but is it much better taking an ILB in the 3-4 there? Hell no. Gotta prefer Bryant or Berry or Okung and moving Albert to RT over McClain at number 5.

KCStud
03-03-2010, 05:03 PM
I'm a HUGE Chiefs fan just like the rest of these guys, but I see Alberts weaknesses.

Albert had to lose weight yes, but he has trouble reading faster guys and holding power guys all season long. Terrell Suggs ate Alberts lunch because Albert took the wrong angles to block him. The same thing happened with DeMarcus Ware, Elvis Dumervile(at Arrowhead), LaMarr Woodley, Aaron Schobel, Brian Orakpo and Shaun Phillips. Albert is an average LT without a nasty demeanor. He is suspect in pass coverage. Chan Gailey hid it his rooki year when KC switched to the wildcat. Haley hid it in the 2nd half of the season last year. Cassel passed the ball a lot quicker than he did in the first half and teams lined up to stop Charles. We had the best rushing attack in the 2nd half of the year. Charles rushed for more yards than CJ in the second half. That took a huge portion off of it. That's why Dumerville didn't get to Cassel. He had handed off the ball or threw a screen to Charles before he could even get to him.

Now, OT is hands down the best pick for KC in round 1 because of the value. Safety is incredibly deep in the draft and we can get a good ILB in round 2. I would love to have McClain or Berry, but an OT solves 2 positions by putting Albert at his natural position at G.

Okung is a beast. He is a franchise LT IMO. He reminds me a lot of slightly less talented Ryan Clady. Feet are awesome, huge wingspan and his strength is elite. Okung should be taken by the Skins though.
Bulaga is also a great option. He dominated everyone he played except for Graham. Graham is a good player and yes he beat Bryan a lot, but let's look at something. Graham was 100% that game while that was Bryan's first game back from a serious thyroid injury. He had less than 2 weeks to get back, but he did it to help his team.
IMO Bulaga is going to be just as good as Jake Long. Long is a much better run blocker, but Bulaga is a much better pass defender and I think his nasty streak is convincing. Bulaga had questions about his run blocking, but he looked miles better this year in that aspect.

I would love to have either guy. OT is the best pick for us though many Chiefs fans don't see it.

vidae
03-03-2010, 05:12 PM
OT being the best pick for us is your opinion. It's not something that only you see and the rest of us don't. This is all opinion based.

GO_Chiefs
03-03-2010, 07:20 PM
Just from what I'm seeing as the top 4 picks

Bradford
Suh
McCoy
Okung

Chiefs will be picking from either Berry, McClain or one of the other LT's

Berry better be the damn pick. McClain, is going to be an MLB and frankly I'd like to have him more if KC was a 4-3 instead of a 3-4; it's too much of a reach for a MLB at 5. And the other LT's are rated that high at 5 after Okung. Pioli isn't that stupid to be taking Bryant at #5. Bryant has only enhanced his bad reputation after his "hamstring tweak".

So basically I'll be livid if the Chiefs don't pick anyone else besides Berry if that top 4 happens like that.

bitonti
03-03-2010, 07:25 PM
Im going to assume OKung is gone. Im also gonna assume Dez Bryant and Rolando McClain didn't run at Indy because they aren't track fast... and that will make them not worth the pick at 5.

that leaves either berry or bulaga. If any of the teams in the top 4 take a QB than the Chiefs take Berry. If they are looking at DT - DT - S - OT then they take Bulaga.

Bulaga besides being smart, versatile and value position, Ferentz has ties to Pioli.

vidae
03-03-2010, 07:32 PM
If the top four go DT - DT - S - OT then I could easily see a trade down scenario for someone wanting to move ahead of Seattle to nab Bradford. That is the best case scenario if Berry is off the board, imo.

RaiderNation
03-03-2010, 10:13 PM
Seems like its going to be Eric Berry, Rolando McClain, Russell Okung or Dez Bryant.

bored of education
03-03-2010, 10:15 PM
Seems like you guys had a party with out me. I think it's Berry-Okung/Bulaga.

Morton
03-03-2010, 10:32 PM
Chiefs fans, what's the point of drafting a great safety or a great linebacker if you can't even keep Matt Cassel propped up for more than a few plays?

Chiefs would be wise to draft Bulaga or Okung in the first round, period. Either one will most likely be a Pro Bowl caliber LT in the NFL for years to come. Berry is a tremendous talent in his own right, but the hierarchy of needs in the NFL goes like this: 1.) Get a quarterback. 2.) Protect your quarterback. 3.) Get to the other guy's quarterback.

You kind of have #1 taken care of, if you believe Cassel is a franchise QB (that's up to you to decide). You could really, really improve on #2, however. I watched a few Chiefs games in 2009 and Cassel was getting abused ALL DAY LONG. A quarterback can only take so much punishment before he gets shell-shocked and loses all confidence in his ability to play.(see: David Carr).

So if you're satisfied with losing seasons, go for McClain or Berry in the first round. If you want to win consistently, and give Matt Cassel a shot, draft Okung or Bulaga.

LarryJohnson27
03-03-2010, 11:46 PM
Aside from the fact that Albert was above average until the whole changing of the playbook and his big weight loss, yet showed improvement as the season came to an end the one thing I think is being overlooked here is the fact that the Chiefs have two 2nd round picks, a 3rd, a 4th, and three 5th rounders to build the Oline in a draft that's fairly deep at OT. The botthom line is we need a playmaker on defense and Berry is just too good to pass up. Our last 3 first round picks have been lineman (Dorsey, Jackson, Albert), and this is our third top 5 pick in a row, so it's about time we use one on a playmaker. I can't understand why it's assumed the Chief's Oline is doomed if they dont use a 1st round pick to upgrade it. There is still FA and 7 other picks in the first 5 rounds to help. A combination of two Olineman like Pouncey and Jerry makes this Oline MUCH better.

Texas Homer
03-04-2010, 12:17 AM
Eric Berry, Dez Bryant, or Russell Okung would likely VERY SOLID picks.

Basileus777
03-04-2010, 01:04 AM
I want Clausen or Berry. The Chiefs don't need a tackle, our offensive line improved dramatically (less sacks, Charles' explosion) later in the season and the struggles were mostly by the interior line. The problem with our offense during that stretch was the QB/WR play. Our offensive line still needs to be improved of course, but it's nothing that requires a top 5 pick.

prock
03-04-2010, 01:10 AM
I want Clausen or Berry. The Chiefs don't need a tackle, our offensive line improved dramatically (less sacks, Charles' explosion) later in the season and the struggles were mostly by the interior line. The problem with our offense during that stretch was the QB/WR play. Our offensive line still needs to be improved of course, but it's nothing that requires a top 5 pick.

So you don't think upgrading from an average LT to a franchise LT is worth it, while you think drafting a quarterback in the top 5 while you are already paying on 60+ million to another? I see...

thebow305
03-04-2010, 01:17 AM
I wouldn't rule out a guy like JPP as the KC pick either. Hali is a nice player, but Vrabel is pretty much done, and JPP has been rising fast. No one saw the Jackson pick coming, that's all I'm saying.

I really don't think it's going to be McClain. Berry maybe, but not McClain.

All these KC to McClain lovers are the same ones that HAD to have Aaron Curry last year and were convinced he was the pick. I stood by my prediction all along that Curry wasn't going to KC, and I think they made the right choice not taking him. I'm not so sure Jackson was the answer, but we'll see.

If I was KC, I'd take Berry. But Offensive Tackle is also a very viable pick. With Albert better slated as a guard or a right tackle in this league, a guy like Russell Okung could come in and make that line much better immediately and give Cassell the protection he really deserves as the big time investment he was for this team.

Basileus777
03-04-2010, 01:20 AM
So you don't think upgrading from an average LT to a franchise LT is worth it, while you think drafting a quarterback in the top 5 while you are already paying on 60+ million to another? I see...

Albert is quite capable of becoming more than average, Matt Cassel is not. Cassel is not a franchise quarterback, right now he isn't even an average quarterback. Even as the rest of the offense improved last year, Cassel actually regressed. KC isn't going to win a Superbowl with him at QB, and they aren't going to get a chance to draft a top QB prospect every year. The Chiefs shouldn't pass on the opportunity to draft Clausen to take a LT that isn't a clear need.

the decider13
03-04-2010, 01:34 AM
Albert is quite capable of becoming more than average, Matt Cassel is not. Cassel is not a franchise quarterback, right now he isn't even an average quarterback. Even as the rest of the offense improved last year, Cassel actually regressed. KC isn't going to win a Superbowl with him at QB, and they aren't going to get a chance to draft a top QB prospect every year. The Chiefs shouldn't pass on the opportunity to draft Clausen to take a LT that isn't a clear need.

They are paying Cassel a ridiculous amount of money for someone that they don't view as a franchise quarterback. There are very few locks in the NFL draft, but KC not drafting a QB in the first is a sure fire lock.

vidae
03-04-2010, 01:36 AM
I completely disagree with your assessment of Matt Cassel. He was actually better than I thought he would be without talent around him.

And Albert is a little bit better than "average" imo. It all comes down to this: do you think one of the top OTs will be a better LT than Albert is? I do not. It's a matter of opinion, but I don't see any of these guys as a surefire franchise LT. If there was one of those in this draft I would be all over it, but I don't see one.

Basileus777
03-04-2010, 01:47 AM
They are paying Cassel a ridiculous amount of money for someone that they don't view as a franchise quarterback. There are very few locks in the NFL draft, but KC not drafting a QB in the first is a sure fire lock.

I wasn't speaking about what Pioli would actually do, though there has been some speculation about Clausen due to the Weis connection. As for Cassel's contract, there's no guarantee he ever sees the inflated salaries at the backend of that deal.

Hermstheman83
03-04-2010, 10:04 AM
I wouldn't rule out a guy like JPP as the KC pick either. Hali is a nice player, but Vrabel is pretty much done, and JPP has been rising fast. No one saw the Jackson pick coming, that's all I'm saying.

I really don't think it's going to be McClain. Berry maybe, but not McClain.

All these KC to McClain lovers are the same ones that HAD to have Aaron Curry last year and were convinced he was the pick. I stood by my prediction all along that Curry wasn't going to KC, and I think they made the right choice not taking him. I'm not so sure Jackson was the answer, but we'll see.

If I was KC, I'd take Berry. But Offensive Tackle is also a very viable pick. With Albert better slated as a guard or a right tackle in this league, a guy like Russell Okung could come in and make that line much better immediately and give Cassell the protection he really deserves as the big time investment he was for this team.


There's a big difference though, Curry was an elite Linebacker, but he'd be out of position in a 34...Derrick Johnson anyone? He might be more a factor of inconsistency but he's definately better suited to be a weakside backer in a 43. Rolando McClain on the other hand, is hand crafted, called down from God himself to play in a 34.
That's a big "IF" though about Okung. Plus, there's always a learning curve associated with any new position. So you'd be changing Alberts, position, O'callahans position and Okung's learning his position. That's a big learning curve, and Cassel would be taking the whippins' for it.

Splat
03-04-2010, 11:12 AM
I wasn't speaking about what Pioli would actually do, though there has been some speculation about Clausen due to the Weis connection. As for Cassel's contract, there's no guarantee he ever sees the inflated salaries at the backend of that deal.

Actually Cassel's deal is front loaded that is why he is making some much this year.

DeathbyStat
03-04-2010, 11:19 AM
I see people on this forum (Chiefs fans?) consistently scoff at the idea of Kansas City taking an offensive tackle at pick 5.

Why?

I realize the defense is (really) garbage. I do. But I also saw KC give up tons of pressure off the edges almost every time Cassel went back to throw.

I think the investment in Cassel was a stupid idea, but now that the investment is made, does it not make sense to try to give that investment a chance to be worth something? If the KC line plays like it does last year, the Chiefs are ****ed, and Cassel is crying like a little *****.

The only argument I can see is that they should take Eric Berry instead, which is reasonable because he rules.



I agree dude I don't get it I even went into the cheifs forum to ask the same question.

vidae
03-04-2010, 11:58 AM
How do you not get it when we all answered you?

Splat
03-04-2010, 12:04 PM
I don't think Albert is average but I also don't think he is as good as some Chiefs fans make him out to be.

OT is not my first choice but if Berry is off the board and the Chiefs have a shot at the highest rated OT in the draft I could understand them taking him.

Chiefs fans keep screaming that they have to take Berry and they refuse to admit he might not even be on the board when the Chiefs draft.

FrankGore
03-04-2010, 12:11 PM
I'm of the opinion that the Chiefs need to make it a priority to take care of Cassell. That includes improving the OL and giving him more weapons to throw to. Yes, yes, we all know they need defense. But when you spend the kind of resources that they did on Cassell, you have to follow through and make it your #1 goal to make sure that he can succeed. Because if he doesn't, everything else is pretty much for naught.

So as much as they'd probably like to take a Berry or McClain, in my opinion, they need to start getting their **** together on offense. If they think they can do that with their later picks, that's fine...but as I see it right now, they need OL, WRs, tight end about as badly as anything. They have a lot of work to do on both sides of the ball, but I think they need to commit right now to making sure that the Cassell thing works out.

Morton
03-04-2010, 12:14 PM
I watched a couple of KC games, especially the game against the Eagles, in which Matt Cassel just got DESTROYED.

If the Chiefs don't draft a stud OT in the first round of the draft, they're never going to have a winning season with Matt Cassel. PERIOD. I don't care if they have both Ed Reed and Troy Polamalu in the backfield, they're not winning **** if Matt Cassel is on the ground before the whistle even blows on every snap.

And waiting until the 2nd or 3rd round and hoping that a semi-decent OT falls to them is a bad idea. Russell Okung and Bryan Bulaga are two of the best OT prospects I've seen in a long time, and you won't get nearly the type of sure-fire production out of a 2nd rounder or 3rd rounder as you would out of one of those two guys.

Draft Eric Berry and be treated to 1-2 pretty interceptions a game and more 4-12 and 3-13 seasons.

Draft Russell Okung or Bryan Bulaga and be treated to a potential playoff spot in the next 3 years.

vidae
03-04-2010, 12:24 PM
If the Chiefs don't draft a stud OT in the first round of the draft, they're never going to have a winning season with Matt Cassel. PERIOD. .

Draft Russell Okung or Bryan Bulaga and be treated to a potential playoff spot in the next 3 years.

What're the next winning lottery numbers?

You won't find a Chiefs fan on these boards who won't admit that the offensive line struggled early in the year, but the line IMPROVED as the year went on. In the last six games the line did a very very good job, especially Albert, who gave up ZERO sacks.

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on this one.

Morton
03-04-2010, 12:29 PM
What're the next winning lottery numbers?

You won't find a Chiefs fan on these boards who won't admit that the offensive line struggled early in the year, but the line IMPROVED as the year went on. In the last six games the line did a very very good job, especially Albert, who gave up ZERO sacks.

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on this one.

Let's revisit this topic a year from now.

KaneMarko
03-04-2010, 12:29 PM
I watched a couple of KC games, especially the game against the Eagles, in which Matt Cassel just got DESTROYED.

If the Chiefs don't draft a stud OT in the first round of the draft, they're never going to have a winning season with Matt Cassel. PERIOD. I don't care if they have both Ed Reed and Troy Polamalu in the backfield, they're not winning **** if Matt Cassel is on the ground before the whistle even blows on every snap.

And waiting until the 2nd or 3rd round and hoping that a semi-decent OT falls to them is a bad idea. Russell Okung and Bryan Bulaga are two of the best OT prospects I've seen in a long time, and you won't get nearly the type of sure-fire production out of a 2nd rounder or 3rd rounder as you would out of one of those two guys.

Draft Eric Berry and be treated to 1-2 pretty interceptions a game and more 4-12 and 3-13 seasons.

Draft Russell Okung or Bryan Bulaga and be treated to a potential playoff spot in the next 3 years.


The Eagles game was like the 3rd game of the season. Did you watch any games in the second half of the season?

If you did you would have noticed Jamal Charles racking up 1100+ yards in the final 8 games of the season. You would have noticed that the number of times Cassel was sacked in the second half of the season was cut in half compared to the first half of the season. The offense, and the offensive line showed significant improvement in the second half of the season. You don't just get 1100 yards rushing and cut your sack totals in half by accident. Blocking was taking place.

I say all that to say that outsiders need to realize that although the CHiefs' offensive line isn't perfect, it's not this massive disaster that people who don't regularly watch the Chiefs realize.

Now, the defense on the other hand...well an unknown RB from the Browns near the end of the season nearly broke the NFL rushing record against the Chiefs.

And people think the offense is worse than the defense? I don't think not drafting Okung or Bulaga or whoever is going to kill this line. Because the facts are that the Chiefs' offensive line showed at least decent production in the back half of the season.

The defense on the other hand has no leadership and in need of major upgrades in key places that the CHiefs' style of 3-4 needs.

Look at how the offense performed down the stretch compared to the defense in the same period and you'll see what I'm talking about.

Now, don't misinterpret my point. Not saying Okung is a bad pick at all. I'm sure he'll be a solid pro. But the Chiefs need more help on the defense than the offense. The performance of the respective squads down the stretch bears that out.

AntoinCD
03-04-2010, 12:31 PM
I really dont think the Chiefs will win much with Cassel period. He played with one of the best WR corps in the league and three all pro offensive linemen and one of the most innovative offensive coaches in the league with the Pats and really was not better than average but that wont change he is the QB there now.

Fact is though the Chiefs gave up a lot of money to get him. This is Pioli's first year as the guy in the organisation and he wont want the biggest decision of his career in KC to fail so he may do what it takes to make him a success.

Everyone talks about Albert switching to RT but I would draft Okung and play Albert at LG(he was being hyped as one of the best guard prospects of the decade) Why not try and get a Walter Jones/Steve Hutchinson or D'Brick/Faneca type left side.

No matter how highly touted Eric Berry is, no safety will make as much of an impact as a very strong offensive line.

Morton
03-04-2010, 12:38 PM
No matter how highly touted Eric Berry is, no safety will make as much of an impact as a very strong offensive line.

Truth.

Also, remember that Scott Pioli's belief system is thus: fortify your offensive and defensive lines before ANYTHING else.

It would go against what Pioli believes in to invest in the secondary at the expensive of his offensive line.

Remember the Tyson Jackson pick last year? He could easily have selected an impact LB like Aaron Curry, but instead reached for a lineman. At least this year, drafting a lineman like Okung or Bulaga wouldn't necessarily be a reach @ #5.

I will personally be shocked (and disappointed) if they don't select Okung or Bulaga in the first round this year.

vidae
03-04-2010, 12:41 PM
Cassel was actually better than I expected. I didn't like the signing at first, but as the year went on he proved that he was tough and could be a leader on this team. I'll take 16-16 td/int ratio and 3k yards from our QB, considering we've had some terrible garbage QBs since Trent Green got traded.

Fix the C/RG spot, get him an extra weapon (and hopefully re-sign Chambers) and I think he'll improve next year.

Again, just like the OL thing, this is all opinion based.

Bengalsrocket
03-04-2010, 12:59 PM
I think everyone here agrees that Pioli seems like the guy who would build through the trenches. in his 6-7 years with the Patriots they certainly did a lot of work on both their lines through out the draft and Pioli was a big part of their draft process.

However, if the Chiefs think Albert has even a small shot at being their franchise left tackle they should not draft one now. That offensive line did it's job at the end of the season last year, and if it can continue to do it's job then you could have a decent o-line with a top flight safety or linebacker to help out your defense (which was in the bottom 3 at the end of the season).

In the end, I think it's ok for them to draft OT, it definitely would help their squad. I just don't think it's necessary like some people are debating. And furthermore I think a top flight safety like Eric Berry would help them win more games both in the short term and long term.

vidae
03-04-2010, 01:03 PM
Since 2000, guess how many offensive lineman Pioli took in the 1st round while he was in New England?

1. Logan Mankins, 32nd pick, 2005. So while I agree that "drafting a safety or LB top 5" doesn't necessarily fit his drafting style, neither does drafting an OT in the 1st.

GO_Chiefs
03-04-2010, 01:07 PM
Since 2000, guess how many offensive lineman Pioli took in the 1st round while he was in New England?

1. Logan Mankins, 32nd pick, 2005. So while I agree that "drafting a safety or LB top 5" doesn't necessarily fit his drafting style, neither does drafting an OT in the 1st.

I could see Okung if he's available over Berry but not Bulaga. That's too much of a reach IMO, but who knows he did pick TJ #3.

Berry better be the pick if he's there @ 5.

LonghornsLegend
03-04-2010, 01:19 PM
That's all well and good and I agree with most of it but it's about what the Chiefs think not the fans.


This is what I was going to point out. It seems people are getting way too caught up with what the "fans" think or want, as if their the ones going to make the pick. It doesn't work that way, so no matter which pick your in favor of or against it's up to the Chiefs to value who they like more.


I think Okung is a better overall player then McClain and upgrading the line after acquiring Cassell makes alot of sense to me. Berry and Okung would be a tough decision, but I don't really think either is 'wrong'.


I just know it doesn't matter what majority of Chiefs fans feel is the right pick or how many times they repeat it on these boards.

nepg
03-04-2010, 01:47 PM
The offense was much different at the tail end of the season. Cassel played very well throughout the entire season.

There are a lot of reasons for the Chiefs to not draft an OT.

1. Albert is fine, and O'Callaghan is good enough (not that they couldn't improve).

2. Weis and Haley have both done more with less at OL. Weis won 3 Super Bowls with a trash OL (first two were worse OLs than the Chiefs'), and Haley ran one of the most prolific offenses in the NFL with a trash OL (worse than the Chiefs') and went to a Super Bowl. Weis is a master at getting the ball out of the QB's hand, which masks deficiencies along the OL. For them, "good enough" is all they want...which is what they've got with Albert and O'Callaghan.

3. Pioli has never shown a tendency to value OT early in the draft. They drafted Mankins on a whim at the end of the first when they had virtually no real needs. His philosophy has been more about putting smart linemen out there and letting them grow together. There's been very little turnover along the OL in New England since 2001...and I'm talking about starters and depth.

4. They're going to draft someone who is a piece to a Super Bowl team at #5. Obviously, as pointed out, neither Pioli, Weis, nor Haley has ever felt like an OL in the Top 5 is that kind of a fit for their vision. The defensive talent is far superior there.

Bengalsrocket
03-04-2010, 01:56 PM
I just know it doesn't matter what majority of Chiefs fans feel is the right pick or how many times they repeat it on these boards.

This topic was targeted at Chiefs fans asking them why they didn't want an OT. You can't ask someone their opinion then after their explanation disregard it because it won't effect the out come anyways.

Basileus777
03-04-2010, 02:06 PM
Cassel played very well throughout the entire season.

I can understand thinking Cassel will play better in the future under better circumstances, but I have no idea how anyone could think he played very well last year. In fact he regressed down the stretch when the rest of the offense improved.

Bengalsrocket
03-04-2010, 02:16 PM
I can understand thinking Cassel will play better in the future under better circumstances, but I have no idea how anyone could think he played very well last year. In fact he regressed down the stretch when the rest of the offense improved.

I'm a pretty big fan of the Chiefs, and I don't see how he regressed. In the Beginning of the year, he didn't throw as many interceptions but he was a lot more inconsistent. As the year went on, he started to calm down in the pocket and focus more of getting the ball out in time. Sure, he had a bad game against Buffalo right at the end with those 4 interceptions but outside of that game, I felt his overall performance was better in the last 8 games than the first 7 (he missed the season opener due to injury).

nepg
03-05-2010, 09:23 AM
Cassel never dropped off. He was pretty consistently good all year. He was able to take more shots down field later in the year when the OL was slightly better. The big problem is the talent he was throwing to somehow got worse and worse. They were dropping 7-10 balls every game.

bored of education
03-05-2010, 09:33 AM
59 drops if i'm not mistaken

H.O.O.D
03-07-2010, 12:01 PM
Do you guys realistically see Pioli/Haley taking Bryant if the reports of tardiness to team activities and games and his irresponsibility are true ? I sure don't. For Dez's sake I would hope they are untrue because a lot of teams will investigate his background and these things will hurt his stock with quite a few teams.

ChiefMojo
03-08-2010, 03:59 PM
Pioli will not take Bryant or McClain frankly. If it isn't either Okung or Bulaga, it could be Berry if he is there.