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Supporting Caste
03-03-2010, 11:25 AM
Sorry, last thread for a while.

I'm just wondering what you guys think about the Browns right now given Haden's slow 40 times.

If Berry and Spiller are gone, do the Browns still take Haden? Do they take an offensive tackle? Take Pierre-Paul and try him at OLB?

ThePudge
03-03-2010, 11:30 AM
Eric Berry will be a Cleveland Brown on draft day.

Supporting Caste
03-03-2010, 11:32 AM
So you expect Kansas City to go OL?

thebow305
03-03-2010, 11:33 AM
Eric Berry will be a Cleveland Brown on draft day.

I tend to agree with this.

zachsaints52
03-03-2010, 11:42 AM
If Berry and Spiller are gone, do the Browns still take Haden? Do they take an offensive tackle? Take Pierre-Paul and try him at OLB?

You think Spiller will be a Top 6 pick?

Michigan
03-03-2010, 11:43 AM
The Browns would be fools not to take Haden if Berry is off the board.

SRogers92
03-03-2010, 11:45 AM
What top notch CBs in the NFL are "slow" by NFL standards ... Trying to think of some and I can't think of any ...

zachsaints52
03-03-2010, 11:45 AM
What top notch CBs in the NFL are "slow" by NFL standards ... Trying to think of some and I can't think of any ...

Charles Woodson and Al Harris :P

Grizzlegom
03-03-2010, 11:46 AM
C.J. Spiller. (unless berry is there)

SRogers92
03-03-2010, 11:49 AM
Woodson was never slow and Al Harris is FAR from a top CB ... not sure what Woodson's timed speed is now, as I'm sure you're uninformed of that, too ... but -- in his prime, he was one of the faster players ... I'm willing to bet he's still a low 4.5 guy ...

Stamper
03-03-2010, 11:49 AM
I wouldn't be surprised if Holmgren wanted a RT to solidify that line. Obviously the browns have a terrible qb in brady quinn but they won their last 4 games by running the ball. And until they find a perfect WCO QB they will be pounding the rock.

I still think they go D but i wouldn't be surprised if they went OL

ThePudge
03-03-2010, 11:50 AM
So you expect Kansas City to go OL?

I fully expect Kansas City to go OL right now. If they don't I think it could be a reach for a Front 7 player for their developing 3-4 or perhaps Dez Bryant. No Safety in the Top 5.

yourfavestoner
03-03-2010, 11:50 AM
What top notch CBs in the NFL are "slow" by NFL standards ... Trying to think of some and I can't think of any ...

Haden isn't slow, though. He ran a slow 40 time.

Watch the replay of him running it. He stands straight up out of the blocks, which will absolutely kill your time. His issue was technique, not actual speed.

Pop in any tape of him playing in the SEC and you'll see the speed. Meyer regarded him as the third best athlete on the team, behind Harvin and Demps.

vidae
03-03-2010, 11:53 AM
I could easily see them taking Berry 5th overall. Pioli doesn't have a history of it, but we need the best player available, and if Berry is there at 5 it'd be him.

SRogers92
03-03-2010, 12:01 PM
I've seen him play and heard many FLA fans' criticisms of him being his speed ... Never, ever thought of him as a burner or even a very fast guy ... just a great cover man similar to Marlin Jackson at Michigan a few years ago ... But -- even Marlin timed better then him(granted - faster surface) but struggles in deep coverage and is better suited for a Cover 2 ...

Makes me wonder how Haden would do in a 34 defense where they blitz so much and leave CBs on an island ...

SenorGato
03-03-2010, 01:27 PM
Eric Berry will be a Cleveland Brown on draft day.

+1

Haden was never going there...he's not such a dominant CB prospect that he should be top 10 anyway.

Brown Leader
03-03-2010, 01:43 PM
Eric Berry will be a Cleveland Brown on draft day.

After his combine performance I doubt he'll pass TB or KC-that's wagering a QB trade goes down for St.Louis and Wash. passes on a QB-the most likely scenarios imo.

I fully expect Kansas City to go OL right now. If they don't I think it could be a reach for a Front 7 player for their developing 3-4 or perhaps Dez Bryant. No Safety in the Top 5.

It's JPP. Or even if the St.L trade scenario doesn't happen-If Okung is off the board think they would reach for the #2 OT over Berry? No.

Haden isn't slow, though. He ran a slow 40 time.

Watch the replay of him running it. He stands straight up out of the blocks, which will absolutely kill your time. His issue was technique, not actual speed.

Pop in any tape of him playing in the SEC and you'll see the speed. Meyer regarded him as the third best athlete on the team, behind Harvin and Demps.

Still, no 4.6 small CB is going in the top ten. Technique? ********-he had to be preparing for the combine, and if not...

K Train
03-03-2010, 01:50 PM
The Browns would be fools not to take Haden if Berry is off the board.

lmao....take that in for a second

RealityCheck
03-03-2010, 01:55 PM
They're not Al Davis-led.

wonderbredd24
03-03-2010, 01:57 PM
I really hope we get Eric Berry, but no one can believe Joe Haden is 4.6 40 slow after he spent his Florida career covering guys like Percy Harvin in practice.

If we don't get Berry, I still expect us to take Haden.

JoeJoeBrown
03-03-2010, 02:02 PM
I wouldn't be surprised if Holmgren wanted a RT to solidify that line. Obviously the browns have a terrible qb in brady quinn but they won their last 4 games by running the ball. And until they find a perfect WCO QB they will be pounding the rock.

I still think they go D but i wouldn't be surprised if they went OL

I would not be sad with Colt McCoy in the 2nd. Not sad at all. I think the guy is going to be a good NFL QB.

And now with all of the PED juice coursing through his veins, he should be strong enough to throw a deep ball occasionally.

(Sorry, obviously I'm a big Colt fan, but I saw that NFL.com segment on him, and his face looked like it was stuffed in skin that was two hat sizes smaller. Not that any of these guys don't juice.)

wonderbredd24
03-03-2010, 02:05 PM
I would not be sad with Colt McCoy in the 2nd. Not sad at all. I think the guy is going to be a good NFL QB.

And now with all of the PED juice coursing through his veins, he should be strong enough to throw a deep ball occasionally.

(Sorry, obviously I'm a big Colt fan, but I saw that NFL.com segment on him, and his face looked like it was stuffed in skin that was two hat sizes smaller. Not that any of these guys don't juice.)

Colt McCoy is not an NFL quarterback. I want no part of him or basically any other QB in this draft.

Solidify the lines and the defense, continue building the running game, and see if Quinn can develop with a competent offense around him

P-L
03-03-2010, 02:06 PM
Charles Woodson and Al Harris :P
Charles Woodson was a 4.4 guy prior to getting drafted.

The question with Haden is not so much speed as it is now work ethic. He showed good speed on film, but showed poor technique and had bad results at the combine. It's been said before, but I guess it needs to be repeated. The pre-draft process (combine and pro days specifically) are like a job interview. Joe Haden failed a big part of that interview. He had nearly two months to train for the 40 yard dash. Poor technique is not an excuse. What was he doing for the past two months instead of working on the 40 yard dash? Players know the importance that NFL personnel put on the combine and he clearly didn't prepare himself like other did.

JoeJoeBrown
03-03-2010, 02:15 PM
Colt McCoy is not an NFL quarterback. I want no part of him or basically any other QB in this draft.

Solidify the lines and the defense, continue building the running game, and see if Quinn can develop with a competent offense around him

I agree that I'm not thrilled about any of these QBs, but I guess being in Austin I've become a fanboy of the guy.

Your plan is by far the most rational and likely.

We need two starting DBs in this draft or via trade. Also, an RT (mentioned above) would be nice. Plenty of mid-round RBs to snag that have potential. Late round flyers for DL depth as well.

I think Quinn is a big fahgina, but we'll see. I hope I am wrong about him. He's got the physical tools, but I'm not sure he's got the instincts or the leadership qualities.

wonderbredd24
03-03-2010, 02:16 PM
I agree that I'm not thrilled about any of these QBs, but I guess being in Austin I've become a fanboy of the guy.

Your plan is by far the most rational and likely.

We need two starting DBs in this draft or via trade. Also, an RT (mentioned above) would be nice. Plenty of mid-round RBs to snag that have potential. Late round flyers for DL depth as well.

I think Quinn is a big fahgina, but we'll see. I hope I am wrong about him. He's got the physical tools, but I'm not sure he's got the instincts or the leadership qualities.
Even if Quinn sucks, build up the foundation for success and get a QB next year with a far better supporting cast around him and a better QB draft overall.

Babylon
03-03-2010, 02:17 PM
What top notch CBs in the NFL are "slow" by NFL standards ... Trying to think of some and I can't think of any ...

Ty Law had a great career i thought without a ton of speed, but he wasnt selected at the top of the draft. (rd 1, 23rd pick)

P-L
03-03-2010, 02:30 PM
Ty Law had a great career i thought without a ton of speed, but he wasnt selected at the top of the draft. (rd 1, 23rd pick)
This is true, but the NFL rules are a bit different now. Ty Law couldn't get away with half of the stuff now, that he did in his prime. In fact, a lot of the current "contact" rules between a defensive back and receiver were put in place because of Ty Law (thanks Bill Polian).

fear the elf
03-03-2010, 02:48 PM
I think Quinn is a big fahgina, but we'll see. I hope I am wrong about him. He's got the physical tools, but I'm not sure he's got the instincts or the leadership qualities.

The one thing that Quinn has is leadership. Watch him run the no huddle towards the end of the season, he did about as good a job as you can. Something hasn't clicked for Quinn, but I don't think it's the leadership aspect.

PoopSandwich
03-03-2010, 02:52 PM
lmao....take that in for a second

Browns 13 Steelers 6 u miss playoffs heheheheheehheheheheeheheh

back on topic, if Berry fell to the Browns at 7 I think all of northern ohio would simultaneously orgasm.

JoeJoeBrown
03-03-2010, 03:31 PM
Even if Quinn sucks, build up the foundation for success and get a QB next year with a far better supporting cast around him and a better QB draft overall.

Yep. I don't disagree (except that I think McCoy is going to be a solid NFL qb).

JFLO
03-03-2010, 03:33 PM
I think Berry is a Brown, at least at this point.

It's looking more and more like Bradford is the pick in STL after his combine weight surprise, which leads to Berry at least falling past Tampa. I don't see KC passing on an offensive lineman, as much as the fan will disagree with me. That leads only Cleveland, b/c I know Seattle isn't going to take him with possible players like Okung, Bulaga, Davis, Clausen on the board.

Babylon
03-03-2010, 04:46 PM
I think Berry is a Brown, at least at this point.

It's looking more and more like Bradford is the pick in STL after his combine weight surprise, which leads to Berry at least falling past Tampa. I don't see KC passing on an offensive lineman, as much as the fan will disagree with me. That leads only Cleveland, b/c I know Seattle isn't going to take him with possible players like Okung, Bulaga, Davis, Clausen on the board.

At this point i doubt they know what they are going to do so how can we. My guess is they wait a year on a QB (better ones next year) so that eliminates Bradford and Clausen. Next most logical would be an OT which is their biggest need. Problem there is they would likely pass a better talent at the spot. If Berry or Gerald McCoy were to fall to them i think they have to take those guys.

On a somewhat related topic if Pete thinks enough of Taylor Mays he may trade down or hope he is there at #14, leaving the pick you mentioned for a differant position, i'm confused.

Jericho@SC
03-03-2010, 05:14 PM
I really hope we get Eric Berry, but no one can believe Joe Haden is 4.6 40 slow after he spent his Florida career covering guys like Percy Harvin in practice.

If we don't get Berry, I still expect us to take Haden.

What does covering Percy Harvin have to do with it? Was it supposed to make him faster? If he's slow, he's slow.

Babylon
03-03-2010, 05:17 PM
I think Berry is a Brown, at least at this point.

It's looking more and more like Bradford is the pick in STL after his combine weight surprise, which leads to Berry at least falling past Tampa. I don't see KC passing on an offensive lineman, as much as the fan will disagree with me. That leads only Cleveland, b/c I know Seattle isn't going to take him with possible players like Okung, Bulaga, Davis, Clausen on the board.

What's that the Jamarcus Russell syndrome?

Thumper
03-03-2010, 05:20 PM
The infatuation with 40 times is completely ridiculous, its amazing how one bad time can take a top 10 pick and drag them down significantly, completely throwing what made them a potential top 10 pick out the window because they ran a bad 40 time (which was invented to see who can cover punts). And I hate to break it to you, but Haden will be paid to run backwards.

Listen, Haden's tape was good his freshman and sophomore year and that was when he was still relatively new to his corner spot, but his tape this year is utterly fantastic with him making plays everywhere in pass coverage, in run support and he didn't allow any big plays from what I am recalling. Haden is the complete package at CB and a bad 40 time shouldn't take him down.

Now, in regards to his slow 40 time it looked more like bad technique in the 40 rather than actually being slow. Also how can we trust these clock operators? Clearly they were all over the place, to see this I point you to Trinidon Holliday, Taylor Mays and CJ Spiller, Taylor Mays finished faster than Holliday but got a worse time, CJ Spiller was docked .9 seconds on his time and the list goes on and on, how do we know Joe Haden wasn't subject to Stevie Wonder, who was apparantly operating the clock. Plus Haden was timed at a 4.3 at Florida before, I can't find the picture but there is a picture of the top workout performers at Florida and Joe Haden is right in the middle of the top 10 on the team with the board claiming he ran a 4.35. So obviously we know that players run faster at their prodays, but more than .2 seconds faster? Who's to say that Haden didn't actually ran a 4.4 but the clock operator (who clearly wasn't on his game) clocked him at 4.58? I mean Trinidon Holliday ran a 4.35, video shows he ran it slower than Taylor Mays and yet Taylor Mays ran a 4.42? Who is to say that Joe didn't fall victim to the same kind of deal.

keylime_5
03-03-2010, 05:24 PM
At this point i doubt they know what they are going to do so how can we. My guess is they wait a year on a QB (better ones next year) so that eliminates Bradford and Clausen. Next most logical would be an OT which is their biggest need. Problem there is they would likely pass a better talent at the spot. If Berry or Gerald McCoy were to fall to them i think they have to take those guys.

On a somewhat related topic if Pete thinks enough of Taylor Mays he may trade down or hope he is there at #14, leaving the pick you mentioned for a differant position, i'm confused.


I think the Seahaws would take a QB this year if Clausen or Bradford fell to them. Chances of that happening don't look too hot right now with St.Louis possibly going for Bradford and Washington going for Clausen as most expect at this point. If they don't have a QB to pick I think it comes down to left tackle or BPA (Berry). Do they take a guy like Bulaga or Davis (or Okung if he falls somehow) to fill a huge need or do they take BPA like last year and go with Berry. I think passing on a left tackle and quarterback last year will prove to have been the wrong decision, but taking BPA usually works out well otherwise.

brasho
03-03-2010, 05:38 PM
What top notch CBs in the NFL are "slow" by NFL standards ... Trying to think of some and I can't think of any ...

Ronde Barber ran a 4.63 coming out of UVa, Dre Bly ran a mid 4.5 coming out of UNC, both were way better than average in their primes.... but Barber was covered up quite a bit in zones. Come to think of it, Brian Kelly was mid 4.5 and possibly Patrick Surtain as well, I think Surtain was more or a pure man cover guy and he did ok.

The truth is, as much as some people want to downplay the 40, I think it is extremely important in grading CB prospects because you just can't find a top man2man CB that ran a slow 40. Sure, Al Harris and Woodson aren't the swiftest anymore, but both were low 4.4 guys early but experience gained certainly made up for some of their speed lost.

V.I.P
03-03-2010, 05:41 PM
What top notch CBs in the NFL are "slow" by NFL standards ... Trying to think of some and I can't think of any ...

Ronde Barber

Edit: damn i should've read some of the other posts before replying.

brasho
03-03-2010, 05:42 PM
C.J. Spiller. (unless berry is there)

Why would any team take a part-time RB so high? Maybe Spiller goes in the teens, but I just don't see a team taking him that high when they know he can't carry the load, especially considering those teams picking high are more than a speedy RB away from contending.

yourfavestoner
03-03-2010, 06:50 PM
The infatuation with 40 times is completely ridiculous, its amazing how one bad time can take a top 10 pick and drag them down significantly, completely throwing what made them a potential top 10 pick out the window because they ran a bad 40 time (which was invented to see who can cover punts). And I hate to break it to you, but Haden will be paid to run backwards.

Listen, Haden's tape was good his freshman and sophomore year and that was when he was still relatively new to his corner spot, but his tape this year is utterly fantastic with him making plays everywhere in pass coverage, in run support and he didn't allow any big plays from what I am recalling. Haden is the complete package at CB and a bad 40 time shouldn't take him down.

Now, in regards to his slow 40 time it looked more like bad technique in the 40 rather than actually being slow. Also how can we trust these clock operators? Clearly they were all over the place, to see this I point you to Trinidon Holliday, Taylor Mays and CJ Spiller, Taylor Mays finished faster than Holliday but got a worse time, CJ Spiller was docked .9 seconds on his time and the list goes on and on, how do we know Joe Haden wasn't subject to Stevie Wonder, who was apparantly operating the clock. Plus Haden was timed at a 4.3 at Florida before, I can't find the picture but there is a picture of the top workout performers at Florida and Joe Haden is right in the middle of the top 10 on the team with the board claiming he ran a 4.35. So obviously we know that players run faster at their prodays, but more than .2 seconds faster? Who's to say that Haden didn't actually ran a 4.4 but the clock operator (who clearly wasn't on his game) clocked him at 4.58? I mean Trinidon Holliday ran a 4.35, video shows he ran it slower than Taylor Mays and yet Taylor Mays ran a 4.42? Who is to say that Joe didn't fall victim to the same kind of deal.

Finally, some sanity.

Anybody who has watched Joe Haden play knows that he's fast.

JoeJoeBrown
03-03-2010, 07:02 PM
Finally, some sanity.

Anybody who has watched Joe Haden play knows that he's fast.

I agree, 40 times make very little sense wrt football. There are only a few times in a game where a player runs in a straight line, at full speed, for more than 20 yards.

(this isn't directed at stoner):

I just love how the SEC guys talk about speed and yet the excuses come out when their players are slow. "Game speed" must be the same as "southern speed".

Hopefully we can all learn a lesson and realize that general groupings for 40 times and position groups are all we need. Unless you are ridiculously slow for the group or ridiculously fast for the group, the numbers should mean nothing. 4.6 isn't ridiculously slow for a CB. It's slow, but not terrible.

The math has been done before, but the difference between a 4.5 and a 4.6 is negligible.

TACKLE
03-03-2010, 07:15 PM
What top notch CBs in the NFL are "slow" by NFL standards ... Trying to think of some and I can't think of any ...

The most underrated CB in the game.

Brandon Flowers.

JRTPlaya21
03-03-2010, 07:18 PM
^bingo on Flowers :).

the_dark_knight
03-03-2010, 08:20 PM
Eric Berry will be a Cleveland Brown on draft day.

If this is the case they're getting a steal and some of the top teams have suffered a mental breakdown.

To me, and I know I'll prolly be in the minority here, if I'm drafting #2 and St. Louis is dead set on Bradford, then I'm taking Suh of course, but for Tampa @ #3 there's no way I'm letting Berry past me. Their defense could really use a shot of life and this guy would go a long way in returning their defense to dominance. The draft is so deep with DTs, why not take the best DB in the entire draft, and come back at the top of the 2nd round with a guy like Brian Price. I know a lot of people have Price as a first round pick, but there are so many talented linemen in this year's draft some of them have to slip.

If I were the Browns and had a shot at Berry I'd thank my lucky stars to have that opportunity, I'd be running that name up as soon as I could possibly turn it in.

the_dark_knight
03-03-2010, 08:24 PM
I agree, 40 times make very little sense wrt football. There are only a few times in a game where a player runs in a straight line, at full speed, for more than 20 yards.

(this isn't directed at stoner):

I just love how the SEC guys talk about speed and yet the excuses come out when their players are slow. "Game speed" must be the same as "southern speed".

Hopefully we can all learn a lesson and realize that general groupings for 40 times and position groups are all we need. Unless you are ridiculously slow for the group or ridiculously fast for the group, the numbers should mean nothing. 4.6 isn't ridiculously slow for a CB. It's slow, but not terrible.

The math has been done before, but the difference between a 4.5 and a 4.6 is negligible.

Easy on the "southern speed" thing there guy! /end tough guy act.

I'm from the south and I get sick of people constantly talking about the SEC as well. It's the most overrated conference in college football. Do they play a great brand of football, with it's own style? Yes, they do, but when it comes to translating to the pros, their players never hit it nearly as big as they're expected to. Of course there are exceptions to this, but in terms of NFL talent, it's spread out everywhere, the SEC doesn't hold all of the elites.

As far as I'm concerned, I don't care that he ran a 4.5+ his game tape says the kid can play football, that's what I care about. For me, corners should be timed running the 40 in their back pedal, that's where they spend most of their time anyway, if they're running straight line, they're likely toasted.

LonghornsLegend
03-03-2010, 08:37 PM
Alot of people on this very board talk about how 40 times are overrated, yet majority of the board overreacts to them every year. Go crazy and upgrade a guy 20 spots because he's fast, drop a guy 20 because he timed slow.


Haden wasn't going to be drafted in the top 10 picks because he's fast regardless, but if you watched him you should know he's faster then a 4.6. I'd bet he's no slower then a high 4.4 at worst but that's just my assumption from seeing him play and cover guys who ran 4.3's consistently.


If he slips out of the top 15 he'll be a huge steal, If my team were picking in that range this would be exactly what I was hoping for.

Hines
03-03-2010, 09:27 PM
I don't know how Haden didn't blow up the combine when his dad owns and trains athletes.

wonderbredd24
03-03-2010, 10:01 PM
I don't know how Haden didn't blow up the combine when his dad owns and trains athletes.

Bad form in the 40 and then pressing in the drills to try to make up for it

I also think with some of these guys, they overtrain and their bodies are just tired and don't perform as well as they could if they'd just give themselves a break

yourfavestoner
03-03-2010, 10:27 PM
Alot of people on this very board talk about how 40 times are overrated, yet majority of the board overreacts to them every year. Go crazy and upgrade a guy 20 spots because he's fast, drop a guy 20 because he timed slow.


Haden wasn't going to be drafted in the top 10 picks because he's fast regardless, but if you watched him you should know he's faster then a 4.6. I'd bet he's no slower then a high 4.4 at worst but that's just my assumption from seeing him play and cover guys who ran 4.3's consistently.


If he slips out of the top 15 he'll be a huge steal, If my team were picking in that range this would be exactly what I was hoping for.

Thank you!

In the weeks leading up to the combine, everybody here was spouting about how its only a small piece of the puzzle, blahblahblah.

Then everybody freaks out watching guys run around in shorts zomgz 40 yard dashzzzzz.

It's been amusing.

rascal
03-03-2010, 10:50 PM
Still think the broncos should waste their first rounder on this guy? LOL

bored of education
03-03-2010, 10:55 PM
The most underrated CB in the game.

Brandon Flowers.

I like you sir :D

JoeJoeBrown
03-03-2010, 11:35 PM
Easy on the "southern speed" thing there guy! /end tough guy act.

I'm from the south and I get sick of people constantly talking about the SEC as well. It's the most overrated conference in college football. Do they play a great brand of football, with it's own style? Yes, they do, but when it comes to translating to the pros, their players never hit it nearly as big as they're expected to. Of course there are exceptions to this, but in terms of NFL talent, it's spread out everywhere, the SEC doesn't hold all of the elites.

As far as I'm concerned, I don't care that he ran a 4.5+ his game tape says the kid can play football, that's what I care about. For me, corners should be timed running the 40 in their back pedal, that's where they spend most of their time anyway, if they're running straight line, they're likely toasted.

Well said, sir.

WCH
03-04-2010, 12:29 AM
The question with Haden is not so much speed as it is now work ethic. He showed good speed on film, but showed poor technique and had bad results at the combine. It's been said before, but I guess it needs to be repeated. The pre-draft process (combine and pro days specifically) are like a job interview. Joe Haden failed a big part of that interview. He had nearly two months to train for the 40 yard dash. Poor technique is not an excuse. What was he doing for the past two months instead of working on the 40 yard dash? Players know the importance that NFL personnel put on the combine and he clearly didn't prepare himself like other did.

I generally agree with you, but I think that we sometimes -- in rare cases -- put too much emphasis on these types of things. One of my favorite Deion Sanders stories involves him slacking off at practice, acting like the classic "Prime Time" of old, and rubbing the coaches the wrong way. A coach asks him "what are you supposed to be doing right now???" Deion points at his WR and says something to the effect of "my job is to not let him catch the football."

Countless players have shown up at the combine and essentially blown off the wonderlic, and wound up with scores that would make you think they were completely and totally illiterate. Marino's 16 wonderlic score didn't prevent him from tearing apart defenses.

Randy Moss had the good sense to skip the combine because (it's always been assumed) he knew he would fail the drug test. He fell to the 21st pick (thanks in part to Lawrence Phillips having been drafted just a year before) and the Vikings snatched him up. I don't think Denny Green regrets that pick.

Brett Favre just posted a 4200 yard, 33 TD, 7 INT season after hardly sniffing the Training Camp practice field. At the age of 40.

Some of these guys look like they're doing all of the wrong things, but they've got it under control because they're so awesome that they could get to the sidelines five minutes before kickoff, build their own pair of pads out of duct-tape, and go out on the field and dominate. These are the "pretty-boys" of the NFL. The guys who can (metaphorically) crawl out of bed, not shave or comb their hair, and then go out and pick up super-models.

Granted, Haden probably isn't one of these guys, and I'd put the odds of him busting at somewhere above 50% right now, but he just might be a "gamer" (to use a sports cliche).

LickaMahfeetz
03-04-2010, 02:15 AM
What top notch CBs in the NFL are "slow" by NFL standards ... Trying to think of some and I can't think of any ...
Malcolm Jenkins coming out last year.

Jenkins, an Ohio State product, ran anywhere from a 4.55 to 4.59 on most watches in his first attempt at Lucas Oil Field in Indianapolis. He improved on his second 40, running a 4.52 or 4.53.

LickaMahfeetz
03-04-2010, 02:18 AM
I don't know how Haden didn't blow up the combine when his dad owns and trains athletes.
Whoa buddy. Slavery is over you know. =p

DeathbyStat
03-04-2010, 06:12 AM
Sorry, last thread for a while.

I'm just wondering what you guys think about the Browns right now given Haden's slow 40 times.

If Berry and Spiller are gone, do the Browns still take Haden? Do they take an offensive tackle? Take Pierre-Paul and try him at OLB?

Please take Pierre Paul let Haden fail to the steelers

FUNBUNCHER
03-04-2010, 06:22 AM
Um, Haden is gonna fall off that combine time, unless he burns it up at Florida's pro day.

As of right now, I see him out of the top 15, and I don't know if he's still the first CB taken.

OF course there are exceptions, and coverage technique and game film should trump timed speed, but as a rule NFL teams who take corners in the top 20 expect them to be able to run like the wind.

Haden's 4.6 was the shocker of the NFL combine, IMO.

DeathbyStat
03-04-2010, 06:39 AM
I wanna see him improve his sprinting technique at his pro day and see if he improves.

Deion Sanders claimed his stance was awfull

DeathbyStat
03-04-2010, 06:41 AM
Haden isn't slow, though. He ran a slow 40 time.

Watch the replay of him running it. He stands straight up out of the blocks, which will absolutely kill your time. His issue was technique, not actual speed.

Pop in any tape of him playing in the SEC and you'll see the speed. Meyer regarded him as the third best athlete on the team, behind Harvin and Demps.

totally agree

FUNBUNCHER
03-04-2010, 07:40 AM
Did anyone run the 40 with worse form than Taylor Mays??? Dude has his fists clenched punching ghosts and his face twisted up like he'd been constipated for a week.

If you're truly a speed merchant, perfect sprint technique won't hold you back from racking a decent time.

Haden really really needs to bring it at Florida's pro day if he expects to recover his draft standing.
Champ Bailey was picked #7 overall and he had the game film AND the measurables; right now I just don't see Haden in the top 20.

SRogers92
03-04-2010, 09:07 AM
Ronde Barber? The guy that played his entire career in the Cover 2 scheme? Not really compatible in terms of being a decent reference ... How good would Barber have been in a man to man scheme? Probably not near the CB he was ...

Flowers is a pretty good example ... He did run a 4.49 at the NFL combine though(http://speedendurance.com/2010/02/22/nfl-combine-class-of-2008-results-nflcombine/) ... That's a lot quicker then the 4.58-4.6 Haden ran ... his Pro Day will be vital ...

The other thing that worries me about Haden ... he wasn't a top performer in the Vertical Jump, 3-Cone Drill, 20-Yard Shuttle, or even Bench Press ... he did test out well in the Broad Jump, but -- everything else was So-So ... doesn't show a lot of overall athleticism you'd like out of a top 10, #1 CB like he's hyped to be ...

I still have him going to the Browns, but -- if his Pro Day doesn't really improve, I'll drop him a bit ... for sure.

SRogers92
03-04-2010, 09:10 AM
Malcolm Jenkins coming out last year.


The question was -- who is a top NFL CB that is relatively slow ... Malcolm Jenkins didn't crack the starting lineup in NO(not exactly battling any top tier CBs there) ... he wasn't as advertised at all and was even, and probably still is, a candidate to get moved to FS ... and even he ran better then Haden did ...

Thanks for proving my point .

Babylon
03-04-2010, 11:22 AM
Um, Haden is gonna fall off that combine time, unless he burns it up at Florida's pro day.

As of right now, I see him out of the top 15, and I don't know if he's still the first CB taken.

OF course there are exceptions, and coverage technique and game film should trump timed speed, but as a rule NFL teams who take corners in the top 20 expect them to be able to run like the wind.

Haden's 4.6 was the shocker of the NFL combine, IMO.

Haden will undoubtedly run a better time at his pro day (dont they all?). I also think his game tape will keep him the first corner taken, you're right though the combine probably cost him some dough.

H.O.O.D
03-07-2010, 11:46 AM
The infatuation with 40 times is completely ridiculous, its amazing how one bad time can take a top 10 pick and drag them down significantly, completely throwing what made them a potential top 10 pick out the window because they ran a bad 40 time (which was invented to see who can cover punts). And I hate to break it to you, but Haden will be paid to run backwards.

Listen, Haden's tape was good his freshman and sophomore year and that was when he was still relatively new to his corner spot, but his tape this year is utterly fantastic with him making plays everywhere in pass coverage, in run support and he didn't allow any big plays from what I am recalling. Haden is the complete package at CB and a bad 40 time shouldn't take him down.

Now, in regards to his slow 40 time it looked more like bad technique in the 40 rather than actually being slow. Also how can we trust these clock operators? Clearly they were all over the place, to see this I point you to Trinidon Holliday, Taylor Mays and CJ Spiller, Taylor Mays finished faster than Holliday but got a worse time, CJ Spiller was docked .9 seconds on his time and the list goes on and on, how do we know Joe Haden wasn't subject to Stevie Wonder, who was apparantly operating the clock. Plus Haden was timed at a 4.3 at Florida before, I can't find the picture but there is a picture of the top workout performers at Florida and Joe Haden is right in the middle of the top 10 on the team with the board claiming he ran a 4.35. So obviously we know that players run faster at their prodays, but more than .2 seconds faster? Who's to say that Haden didn't actually ran a 4.4 but the clock operator (who clearly wasn't on his game) clocked him at 4.58? I mean Trinidon Holliday ran a 4.35, video shows he ran it slower than Taylor Mays and yet Taylor Mays ran a 4.42? Who is to say that Joe didn't fall victim to the same kind of deal.

http://a323.yahoofs.com/ymg/ept_sports_ncaaf_experts__32/ept_sports_ncaaf_experts-608345089-1267559595.jpg?ymrCwwCDGxlxXBkC

If you notice the times listed for Harvin and Murphy compared to the times they ran at the combine, Florida lists them about one tenth of a second faster. In Haden's case the combine time was MORE than two tenth's slower. Hard to believe Florida would be off by that much.

Sniper
03-07-2010, 11:53 AM
I generally agree with you, but I think that we sometimes -- in rare cases -- put too much emphasis on these types of things. One of my favorite Deion Sanders stories involves him slacking off at practice, acting like the classic "Prime Time" of old, and rubbing the coaches the wrong way. A coach asks him "what are you supposed to be doing right now???" Deion points at his WR and says something to the effect of "my job is to not let him catch the football."

I think it was something like, "Coach, the rest of the guys can worry about this Cover-2, Cover-3 ******** and I'll just cover this dude." Classic.

Complex
03-07-2010, 12:08 PM
Everyone runs 4.3 at their pro day, I think Beanie Wells ran a "4.34" at his. I wouldn't draft a slow corner in the 1sst round unless he could play safety or late 1st like the colts (who run a cover 2)

Stranger
03-07-2010, 04:06 PM
The question was -- who is a top NFL CB that is relatively slow ... Malcolm Jenkins didn't crack the starting lineup in NO(not exactly battling any top tier CBs there) ... he wasn't as advertised at all and was even, and probably still is, a candidate to get moved to FS ... and even he ran better then Haden did ...

Thanks for proving my point .

Greer actually played like one of the best corners in the league last year (think he was second in football outsiders rankings) and Tracy Porter is pretty good himself. I agree that Jenkins still has to prove himself though.

On Haden I think his 40 times definitely will make some teams wary. From Daniel Jeremiah a former scout.

RT @Gatrbate: do you still see CLE drafting Haden at #7?> I have talked to 5 different teams and all of them said Hayden won't go in top 10

RT @MJEversoll: Any chance Joe Haden falls to 23?>> Yes

Brandon Flowers was highly thought of coming out of Va Tech, similar to Haden, checked in under 5'11, ran high 4.5's and went top of 2nd

RT @D_Summit: Can Kyle Wilson pass Haden with a good pro day?>> Yes, he is really good on tape. I know teams that have him over Haden

RT @Stanley85510: Do you think Haden sprinted himself out of the top 10? > can't think of single 5'10 CB that ran 4.58 that went top 10

Obviously this guy is not the be all and end all of where Haden will be drafted but he is a former scout that has contacts within various organisations. I think Haden really needs to impress at his pro day. He does mention that Haden had a funky start though.

RT @adogwynn: Can Haden get back in the top 10 by running in the 4.4s at his pro day?> I think so.. his start was jacked up, real awkward

H.O.O.D
03-12-2010, 08:28 AM
Everyone runs 4.3 at their pro day, I think Beanie Wells ran a "4.34" at his. I wouldn't draft a slow corner in the 1sst round unless he could play safety or late 1st like the colts (who run a cover 2)

FWIW....Wells ran a 4.52 @ the combine & 4.38 @ his pro day, however Malcolm Jenkins ran a 4.51 at the combine and a 4.55 @ his pro day.

Woody56
03-12-2010, 08:50 AM
The question was -- who is a top NFL CB that is relatively slow ... Malcolm Jenkins didn't crack the starting lineup in NO(not exactly battling any top tier CBs there) ... he wasn't as advertised at all and was even, and probably still is, a candidate to get moved to FS ... and even he ran better then Haden did ...

Thanks for proving my point .

back in the day Chris McCalister was considered a top 3 CB and was a mid 4.5 guy

bitonti
03-12-2010, 10:10 AM
rolando mcclain to cleveland makes more sense to me than joe haden

especially if they both run about 4.6


there are basically 2 real 3-4 ILb in the whole draft, mcclain and spikes. The browns are starting Bowens there that's a problem.

keylime_5
03-12-2010, 10:37 AM
Ty Law was never a 4.3 guy, but then again the rules were different back then. If Jenkins ran a sub 4.5 then he probably would've gone top ten, even as a safety if not as a corner. I think if Haden improves his technique - and if he really did have a lower back sprain at the combine - and runs a 4.45 or less in Gainesville then that buzz about Haden to Cleveland might drum up a bit again. I just hope Berry falls to 7 so I don't have to worry about that.

Babylon
03-12-2010, 11:21 AM
I guess Haden is claiming some sort of back tightness led to the poor time so if he can get his 40 time down into the high 4.4s or low 4.5s nearly all will be forgiven. Doubt he gets any interest in the first 6-8 picks but still should go in the top dozen or so.

PossibleCabbage
03-12-2010, 11:23 AM
Everyone runs 4.3 at their pro day, I think Beanie Wells ran a "4.34" at his.

I think that's why teams time with their own scouts, both at the combine and at the pro day. Official pro day times are completely meaningless.

golota
03-12-2010, 11:30 AM
I think that's why teams time with their own scouts, both at the combine and at the pro day. Official pro day times are completely meaningless.

I agree 100% on the meaningless of pro day times. Every says they are a 4.4 or 4.3 guy until they get to the combine. At the combine, everyone runs on the same track under the same conditions. Then you can establish who is the fastest where everyone ranks relative to others at their playing position.
I just wish the combine had a more automated way to measure "official times"
Even if Haden runs a 4.3 at Florida, he is still one of the slower CBs based on his combine performance. People dont suddenly get faster. You are either fast or your not. One month doesnt change anything.

Same thing applies to guys like Jon Dwyer.

Babylon
03-12-2010, 01:28 PM
I agree 100% on the meaningless of pro day times. Every says they are a 4.4 or 4.3 guy until they get to the combine. At the combine, everyone runs on the same track under the same conditions. Then you can establish who is the fastest where everyone ranks relative to others at their playing position.
I just wish the combine had a more automated way to measure "official times"
Even if Haden runs a 4.3 at Florida, he is still one of the slower CBs based on his combine performance. People dont suddenly get faster. You are either fast or your not. One month doesnt change anything.

Same thing applies to guys like Jon Dwyer.

If Haden did indeed have some health issues and runs well at a pro day then those that like him will use that as justification to take him, if they didnt like him that much in the 1st place then they'll refer back to the combine. Give me game film anyday over combine times.

The Florida pro day is probably going to attract quite a crowd. Not only is Tebow going to unvail this new throwing motion of his but you have interest in seeing how Haden, Spikes, Cooper, Hernandez, Dunlap.......perform.