PDA

View Full Version : What is Brandon Graham missing?


MasterShake
03-13-2010, 04:30 PM
I've been pretty high on this guy since before the Senior Bowl. I always thought he would be a nice pick for the 49ers at 17. Now I'm starting to think we may have to take him at 13...some people may think I'm crazy....but really, what is he missing to be considered a top 15 pick?

He has good triangle numbers and his tape speaks for itself. He has what it takes to get after the QB and now that we know his atheletic ability is an asset and not a liability...what do you think he is missing? What does JPP have that he doesn't?

derza222
03-13-2010, 04:37 PM
Lack of ideal height and lack of long arms to make up for it are the big two knocks you'll see.

Scott Wright
03-13-2010, 04:38 PM
He has good triangle numbers

That is what's missing. He's not very tall, has short arms and isn't a blazer.

giant73zuma
03-13-2010, 04:39 PM
about 3 inches

other than not having ideal height theres no reason for him not to be the first d-end off the boards. and lets be honest his height takes nothing away from his skills or abilities its just something for scouts to hate on

ironman4579
03-13-2010, 04:39 PM
It's all his height. If he was even 6'3" I'm fairly confident he'd be at least in the talk for top 10 consideration. Maybe that's just the homer in me talking, but I honestly don't see anything other than height that's keeping him from being the first DE off the board.

YAYareaRB
03-13-2010, 04:44 PM
He's like a alligator in pads. But he'd be a beast on our team

superman
03-13-2010, 04:45 PM
hey being short could give him better leverage

ironman4579
03-13-2010, 04:45 PM
That is what's missing. He's not very tall, has short arms and isn't a blazer.

Well, while he didn't run an incredible time at Indy or anything, he was running in the 4.58 range in training consistently. And let's be honest, guys that were supposed to be "freaks" at the combine like Kindle, Dunlap, Sapp, and JPP ran basically the same official times.

And just to throw it out there, his arm length is basically identical to LaMarr Woodley...........................

ThePudge
03-13-2010, 04:47 PM
That is what's missing. He's not very tall, has short arms and isn't a blazer.

Just to ask you, what do you make of the fact of his 30" arms in Mobile and 32 1/4" arms in Indy? While still short, his arms no longer seem stubby and at 268 he met my expectations with a low 4.7. Speaking purely hypotehticially, if Graham were somewhere in the 258-260 range I think he cracks that 4.7 mark and makes him look, well, fairly physically gifted if you view him as a Linebacker. I know you see him at DE, but for 3-4 teams looking at Graham do you think there's a bigger question about his speed or simply his coverage instincts/ability in space?

Morton
03-13-2010, 05:31 PM
If Dwight Freeney and Elvis Dumervil are good precendents, he's really not missing anything.

Babylon
03-13-2010, 05:38 PM
He's missing prototype size and speed. The production is great. Even if you say he could be the next Woodley or Harrison on the outside those guys were 2nd round and free agent types. He'll go a lot higher than that.

wordofi
03-13-2010, 05:45 PM
I've been pretty high on this guy since before the Senior Bowl. I always thought he would be a nice pick for the 49ers at 17. Now I'm starting to think we may have to take him at 13...some people may think I'm crazy....but really, what is he missing to be considered a top 15 pick?

He has good triangle numbers and his tape speaks for itself. He has what it takes to get after the QB and now that we know his atheletic ability is an asset and not a liability...what do you think he is missing? What does JPP have that he doesn't?

He's missing the height, but that's about it. However, I think it's an advantage because he can push offensive tackles back in the passing game.

scar988
03-13-2010, 06:06 PM
I've been pretty high on this guy since before the Senior Bowl. I always thought he would be a nice pick for the 49ers at 17. Now I'm starting to think we may have to take him at 13...some people may think I'm crazy....but really, what is he missing to be considered a top 15 pick?

He has good triangle numbers and his tape speaks for itself. He has what it takes to get after the QB and now that we know his atheletic ability is an asset and not a liability...what do you think he is missing? What does JPP have that he doesn't?

I think he will go top 10... so honestly, I don't think he is missing anything. I have Buffalo taking him at 9.

BaLLiN
03-13-2010, 06:17 PM
Its hard to look past certain things that are "missing" but i dont see why we cant look at Graham and see what a beast he could be in the right scheme or positives that can overshadow the negatives.

thetedginnshow
03-13-2010, 06:21 PM
He didn't go to a good school.

I_C_DeadPeople
03-13-2010, 06:24 PM
about 3 inches


Same reason I am not a porn star....

V.I.P
03-13-2010, 06:29 PM
...what do you think he is missing? What does JPP have that he doesn't?

JPP can do 13 backflips in a row.

BaLLiN
03-13-2010, 06:33 PM
JPP can do 13 backflips in a row.

and he knows what the quarterback's thinking

Morton
03-13-2010, 07:01 PM
JPP can do 13 backflips in a row.

Brandon Graham can only do 10 backflips in a row. Clearly, he's nothing more than a 5th round prospect, at best!

But seriously, I recently re-watched his highlight reel on youtube, and I came away even more impressed than I was the first time I watched it.

First of all, it's not like he came from a small school and dominated inferior competition. In his youtube highlight clip it shows him DOMINATING tackles from big-time schools like Ohio State, Iowa, and Wisconsin. These aren't exactly scrubs he was playing against. He made Bryan Bulaga, a top 10 pick, look foolish. Then, of course, he went on to blow up the Senior Bowl, and Mike Mayock said he was "unblockable" in one-on-one drills.

And what's nice about him is that he's a complete DE; he's not just a pass-rushing specialist like a lot of DEs who rack up the sacks. Graham is very comfortable stopping the run and tackling running backs in the backfield for a loss. He led the nation in tackles for a loss, didn't he? He is extremely effective when run at, unlike a lot of guys who are great pass rushers, like Jerry Hughes in this year's draft.

I'm starting to really think that this could possibly be the best DE prospect in this year's draft, and maybe even one of the best DE prospects since that 2005 draft with Shawne Merriman and DeMarcus Ware. I honestly won't be shocked if he's named to the Pro Bowl in his rookie year, or if he wins Defensive Rookie of the Year in 2010. He just looks that good so far.

RWills
03-13-2010, 07:27 PM
I didn't care for him until I started watching him, I love his leverage and his hands, this is what make you very good with football. Speed and triangle numbers can only take you so far. This guy knows how to use his negatives to his advantage. Other than Derrick Morgan I think he is the best at stopping the run. I think he can play power base in a 4-3. I question is leverage ability standing up, but he is a football player

Morton
03-13-2010, 07:32 PM
I didn't care for him until I started watching him, I love his leverage and his hands, this is what make you very good with football. Speed and triangle numbers can only take you so far. This guy knows how to use his negatives to his advantage. Other than Derrick Morgan I think he is the best at stopping the run. I think he can play power base in a 4-3. I question is leverage ability standing up, but he is a football player

I can't tell you how many times I've seen him drop a running back in the backfield for a loss in those highlight reels. It's ridiculous. He just STUFFS the run on a consistent basis.

I also think he's a pure 4-3 end. I really don't see him being comfortable in coverage: he looks like a guy who just wants to do one of two things: sack the quarterback and tackle the running back. And he'll excell in that role.

Saints-Tigers
03-13-2010, 07:54 PM
I honestly would take him over any other DE without hesitation this year.

I think being short and stout may actually be better than being tall and long.

superman
03-13-2010, 07:57 PM
Same reason I am not a porn star....

that was good

Sniper
03-13-2010, 08:15 PM
I can't tell you how many times I've seen him drop a running back in the backfield for a loss in those highlight reels. It's ridiculous. He just STUFFS the run on a consistent basis.

If you can find them, watch the following plays.

1. Goal-line stand against Glenn Winston and Michigan State. Graham literally spears Winston.

2. Goal-line stand against Dan Herron and Ohio State.

3. Contain vs. Terrelle Pryor. Guess who wins?

bored of education
03-13-2010, 08:25 PM
Pryor always wins. Know your role Sniper

Sniper
03-13-2010, 08:26 PM
Pryor always wins. Know your role Sniper

Lies. Pryor is garbage.

bored of education
03-13-2010, 08:29 PM
Lies. Pryor is garbage.

I will be forced the thrash you!

Sniper
03-13-2010, 08:33 PM
I will be forced the thrash you!



GARBAGEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !! Brandon Graham is the greatesttttttttttt EVARZZZZZZZZZZZ!

bored of education
03-13-2010, 08:37 PM
Hughes > Graham!

descendency
03-13-2010, 08:47 PM
"Triangle numbers"

Morton
03-13-2010, 09:09 PM
On a related note, I think Terrelle Pryor is going to be the #1 overall pick in 2011.

thebow305
03-13-2010, 09:25 PM
On a related note, I think Terrelle Pryor is going to be the #1 overall pick in 2011.

I'm gonna go out on a limb and say it's gonna be Jake Locker. ;)

Thumper
03-13-2010, 09:29 PM
I'm gonna go out on a limb and say it's gonna be Jake Locker. ;)

I'm tossing Robert Griffin III, Jacory Harris, Christian Ponder and Ryan Mallett into the ring. 2011 QB Class is going to be sick.

thetedginnshow
03-13-2010, 09:40 PM
You can't really think Harris or Griffin are going #1 overall.

scpanther22
03-13-2010, 09:43 PM
I like Jerrod Johnson QB from Texas

Dam8610
03-13-2010, 11:08 PM
Graham lacks "ideal height" and didn't wow in the 40, that said, if you look for strength and explosion in DEs (and who doesn't?), Graham is your guy. As for "ideal height", Dwight Freeney, Elvis Dumervil, Robert Mathis, James Harrison, LaMarr Woodley, Trent Cole, etc. seem to be getting by fine without it.

Morton
03-13-2010, 11:15 PM
Graham lacks "ideal height" and didn't wow in the 40, that said, if you look for strength and explosion in DEs (and who doesn't?), Graham is your guy. As for "ideal height", Dwight Freeney, Elvis Dumervil, Robert Mathis, James Harrison, LaMarr Woodley, Trent Cole, etc. seem to be getting by fine without it.

Also, Graham ran a 4.69 40 at the combine. I don't know about you, but when a 268 lb. guy runs a 4.69 40, that kind of wows me.

Dam8610
03-13-2010, 11:43 PM
Also, Graham ran a 4.69 40 at the combine. I don't know about you, but when a 268 lb. guy runs a 4.69 40, that kind of wows me.

It's average DE speed, maybe slightly above, but with his strength and explosion, it doesn't really matter, it's not like he's going to be running 40 yards on the field very often. I really hate the "lacks ideal height" criticism though, especially when 4 of the Top 5 in sacks last season and 9 of the 14 players to produce 10+ sacks last season were 6'3" or under, or what's considered to be "lacking ideal height".

regoob2
03-13-2010, 11:49 PM
Is there a more overrated player than Brandon Graham in the draftnik world? If this guy isnt Reggie White then he didnt live up to this hype.

Cicero
03-13-2010, 11:50 PM
I'm tossing Robert Griffin III, Jacory Harris, Christian Ponder and Ryan Mallett into the ring. 2011 QB Class is going to be sick.

Locker
Mallet
Pryor
Devlin
Jerrod Johnson
Robert Griffin
Andrew Luck

all have the potential to be first round picks next year IMO.

themaninblack
03-14-2010, 12:00 AM
He might be my favorite option at 21 right now. Unless Spoon somehow falls.

Morton
03-14-2010, 12:15 AM
Is there a more overrated player than Brandon Graham in the draftnik world? If this guy isnt Reggie White then he didnt live up to this hype.

I don't think he needs to be Reggie White in the NFL, but I do think he'll be roughly on the same level as Dwight Freeney.

I don't think it's possible to overrate him right now. He blew up great O-Lines in college, blew up the Senior Bowl, and did OK in the Combine until he pulled his hamstring running a very solid 4.69 40.

Dam8610
03-14-2010, 12:21 AM
Is there a more overrated player than Brandon Graham in the draftnik world? If this guy isnt Reggie White then he didnt live up to this hype.

How exactly did you arrive at that conclusion? I mean, it's understandable if you're talking to Sniper about him, but otherwise, I think people are giving a pretty fair assessment. They're saying he's not fast for a DE and "lacks ideal height". If you don't value "ideal height" (and why should you when most of the best pass rushers in the NFL don't have it?), obviously you're going to rank him higher than most. Regardless, he's a first round pick on anyone's board, so that should tell you quite a bit about the talent and ability he's showcased to this point.

Dam8610
03-14-2010, 12:26 AM
I don't think he needs to be Reggie White in the NFL, but I do think he'll be roughly on the same level as Dwight Freeney.

Just to be clear, are you comparing him to Dwight Freeney? Because he has nowhere near the speed for that comparison to be valid. LaMarr Woodley is by far the best comparison for Graham.

thetedginnshow
03-14-2010, 12:28 AM
How exactly did you arrive at that conclusion? I mean, it's understandable if you're talking to Sniper about him, but otherwise, I think people are giving a pretty fair assessment. They're saying he's not fast for a DE and "lacks ideal height". If you don't value "ideal height" (and why should you when most of the best pass rushers in the NFL don't have it?), obviously you're going to rank him higher than most. Regardless, he's a first round pick on anyone's board, so that should tell you quite a bit about the talent and ability he's showcased to this point.

Well, that Morton said he was the best DE prospect since Ware and Merriman which, while not a Reggie White comparison, is kind of ridiculous.

Dam8610
03-14-2010, 12:30 AM
Well, that Morton said he was the best DE prospect since Ware and Merriman which, while not a Reggie White comparison, is kind of ridiculous.

Agreed, Mario Williams comes to mind immediately. By that standard, yes, he would be overhyped, but most are giving fair evaluations.

Morton
03-14-2010, 12:41 AM
Well, that Morton said he was the best DE prospect since Ware and Merriman which, while not a Reggie White comparison, is kind of ridiculous.

It's really not ridiculous at all.

I'm fairly confident, based on watching and re-watching game film of Graham, and noting his Senior Bowl performance, that he definitely has the potential to be a superior run-stuffer plus a 10+ sack/year guy, all starting in his rookie season.

That's probably better than all of the defensive ends selected since that 2005 draft, including Mario Williams.

Again, just my opinion. I could be wrong, but I have a strong feeling that this guy is going to succeed in a BIG way at the next level.

Thumper
03-14-2010, 12:43 AM
I've been saying this for months, Brandon Graham is going to be just like Trent Cole.

thetedginnshow
03-14-2010, 12:50 AM
It's really not ridiculous at all.

I'm fairly confident, based on watching and re-watching game film of Graham, and noting his Senior Bowl performance, that he definitely has the potential to be a superior run-stuffer plus a 10+ sack/year guy, all starting in his rookie season.

That's probably better than all of the defensive ends selected since that 2005 draft, including Mario Williams.

Again, just my opinion. I could be wrong, but I have a strong feeling that this guy is going to succeed in a BIG way at the next level.

Yeah, that's what I figured you were saying. You have to learn the difference between saying someone is a better prospect than someone and saying they'll be a better pro (which I think is kind of ridiculous anyway, since it's easy to do that in hindsight).

TACKLE
03-14-2010, 04:17 AM
I've been saying this for months, Brandon Graham is going to be just like Trent Cole.

I see a lot more of Trent Cole in Derrick Morgan than I do in Graham.

FUNBUNCHER
03-14-2010, 06:13 AM
It's average DE speed, maybe slightly above, but with his strength and explosion, it doesn't really matter, it's not like he's going to be running 40 yards on the field very often. I really hate the "lacks ideal height" criticism though, especially when 4 of the Top 5 in sacks last season and 9 of the 14 players to produce 10+ sacks last season were 6'3" or under, or what's considered to be "lacking ideal height".

A DE who runs a sub 4.7 is the equivalent IMO of a RB who runs a 4.45; it's IDEAL speed for the position, not 'average'. Being a great DE is more about explosive quickness and agility than raw straight line speed anyway.

The correlation between 40 times and DE play, (and all positions, really), is that guys who are fast running for 40 yards are usually your quicker, more explosive players on a football field.

nepg
03-14-2010, 09:06 AM
Well, the height and lack of all-around athleticism is important. Sure, he could turn out like Lamarr Woodley or Elvis Dumervill, but other similar players have had a much harder/longer transition.

Tully Banta-Cain is a similar player who was drafted in the 6th round, and it took him 4 years (counting 2006 as his "getting it" year, and ignoring his stint in SF). Larry English got the same kind of love Graham's getting and he didn't look that great in San Diego...

It's fine for guys to take time to develop, but when you use a first round pick, you're typically looking for someone to fill a big role - either as a starter or someone who plays a significant amount of snaps - right away.

the_dark_knight
03-14-2010, 10:04 AM
Doesn't have elite firststep to compensate for his height and short arms and really never beat any quality pro tackles. People bring up Bulaga but never talk about how hewas playing through injury at that point wasnt full strength. He did a good job against the competition he faced but in the NFL he's got a huge jump ahead of himself many hurdles to leap

Thumper
03-14-2010, 12:47 PM
I see a lot more of Trent Cole in Derrick Morgan than I do in Graham.

IMO Derrick Morgan lacks that quick twitch ability that Trent Cole and Brandon Graham have.

regoob2
03-14-2010, 12:53 PM
How exactly did you arrive at that conclusion? I mean, it's understandable if you're talking to Sniper about him, but otherwise, I think people are giving a pretty fair assessment. They're saying he's not fast for a DE and "lacks ideal height". If you don't value "ideal height" (and why should you when most of the best pass rushers in the NFL don't have it?), obviously you're going to rank him higher than most. Regardless, he's a first round pick on anyone's board, so that should tell you quite a bit about the talent and ability he's showcased to this point.
People speak of him like he's going to be an immediate starter and 10+ sack guy in the NFL. He's a good prospect but not even the #1 DE.

Babylon
03-14-2010, 01:04 PM
I've been saying this for months, Brandon Graham is going to be just like Trent Cole.

I think he makes his bones as an OLB. Lamar Woodley would be where i think he ends up.

Morton
03-14-2010, 01:11 PM
People speak of him like he's going to be an immediate starter and 10+ sack guy in the NFL. He's a good prospect but not even the #1 DE.

After watching DE prospects for years, I think he will be the guy, like Dwight Freeney, to come in, start immediately, and get 10+ sacks.

The caveat, though, is that he has to play as 4-3 DE.

Check back with me after the 2010 season is finished and we'll see if I was right!

Babylon
03-14-2010, 01:15 PM
After watching DE prospects for years, I think he will be the guy, like Dwight Freeney, to come in, start immediately, and get 10+ sacks.

The caveat, though, is that he has to play as 4-3 DE.

Check back with me after the 2010 season is finished and we'll see if I was right!

I'd have to put him in the poor man's Freeney category because of Freeney's speed. It's really hard to project a DE to come in and get that kind of production their first year.

As an OLB i could see him having an Orakpo/Matthews kind of year, that i could see, hopefully in Seattle.

Dam8610
03-14-2010, 01:51 PM
A DE who runs a sub 4.7 is the equivalent IMO of a RB who runs a 4.45; it's IDEAL speed for the position, not 'average'. Being a great DE is more about explosive quickness and agility than raw straight line speed anyway.

The correlation between 40 times and DE play, (and all positions, really), is that guys who are fast running for 40 yards are usually your quicker, more explosive players on a football field.

Most DEs in the NFL run 4.7 or higher, hence why I said it was average, maybe slightly above, but speed isn't his game, strength and explosion are, and those are top notch for him, he was the strongest DE at the combine, posting 31 reps of 225 and I would post his broad jump numbers, but apparently the NFL either didn't conduct the broad jump for DL or didn't think it important enough to post on their results page, if anyone can find that for me it'd be greatly appreciated. It shows on the tape though, he uses strength, leverage (where his "lack of ideal height" actually helps him), and explosion to beat his man.

regoob2
03-14-2010, 02:18 PM
After watching DE prospects for years, I think he will be the guy, like Dwight Freeney, to come in, start immediately, and get 10+ sacks.

The caveat, though, is that he has to play as 4-3 DE.

Check back with me after the 2010 season is finished and we'll see if I was right!
We'll see. Not saying he's not a good prospect but that's asking a lot. If a few could come in and do that he would go top 5.

FUNBUNCHER
03-14-2010, 04:05 PM
I think some team trades up to the end of the top 20 picks to snag him.

will99890
03-14-2010, 04:28 PM
Doesn't have elite firststep to compensate for his height and short arms and really never beat any quality pro tackles. People bring up Bulaga but never talk about how hewas playing through injury at that point wasnt full strength. He did a good job against the competition he faced but in the NFL he's got a huge jump ahead of himself many hurdles to leap

Really? Never beat pro quality tackles? Really? The dude tore up theBbig 10, the conference that turns out a ton of good pro OL, for 4 years and he never once faced a pro caliber player? I find that very hard to believe. And IMO he has the best first step out of any one in the class. 40 yard dash is SO overrated for DL. When I look at DEs i look at these 3 things in this order.

1.Game tape - does he look/move/use his hands like an NFL DE when on the field
2.Vertical/Broad Jump - translates much better than a 40 yd dash for DEs, measures pure explosiveness
3.Production - this is last on my list cause injuries, coaching issues, and scheme problems can happen to good players

Don't care about 40 time at all. Bench numbers are irrelevant cause I can tell how strong someone plays by watching them. Remeber a guy named Terna Nande from Miami OH? Was supposed to challenge the bench record at the combine, but very little of that strength made it onto the field.

Michigan
03-14-2010, 04:39 PM
Doesn't have elite firststep to compensate for his height and short arms and really never beat any quality pro tackles. People bring up Bulaga but never talk about how hewas playing through injury at that point wasnt full strength. He did a good job against the competition he faced but in the NFL he's got a huge jump ahead of himself many hurdles to leap

I'm sure Jason Pierre-Paul and Derrick Morgan went up against NFL-calibur tackles all the time. :rolleyes:

ThePudge
03-14-2010, 04:45 PM
Recently Daniel Jeremiah (former Browns/Ravens scout) said he's talked to three teams that have Graham ahead of Derrick Morgan. He went on to say that Graham will be gone before 20th Overall. I wouldn't be all too shocked to see a team like Denver, Miami, or San Francisco take a shot in the Top 15.

bitonti
03-15-2010, 10:06 PM
brandon graham is value anywhere after about 10 in the first round, he's an absolute beast and will go higher than most think...

I dont care if the scouts say he's a reach or whatever... pick him at 10 or 50 overall, either way he's a steal.

The guy is the best pure pass rusher I have seen at defensive end for maybe 5 years. bulaga is my favorite tackle in this draft and Graham embarassed Bulaga twice.

the height thing doesn't even hurt him that much because of the freeney and cole comparisons. beast.

the_dark_knight
03-15-2010, 10:26 PM
I'm sure Jason Pierre-Paul and Derrick Morgan went up against NFL-calibur tackles all the time. :rolleyes:

Roll your eyes all you want you have no evidence to the contrary. Even at the Senior Bowl he didn't go up against good tackles cause they weren't there. It's not his fault he did his job against the gut across from him but people who think he's anything more than a hustle guy will be sorely disappointed

Longclaw
03-15-2010, 10:27 PM
I'd really like Graham to fall to the Pats at 22, though I heard that he's not a good fit for the Pats scheme. Question is he's viewed like Woodley, what makes him good in a Steeler's like scheme compared to the Pats scheme aka McGinest? Not the height and weight differential that BB likes please. Thanks!

J-Mike88
03-16-2010, 08:26 AM
In terms of production, he's not missing anything. Great football player.
But many scouts prefer guys who look like Tarzan, play like Jane.

Great question here. The answer is along the lines of why James Harrison wasn't drafted, why Tom Brady lasted 200 picks, etc. The genius scouts pretend they're scientists sometimes and ignore the evidence from the actual gridiron, where it really matters on the scoreboard.

Graham is a Top-10 talent in this draft, without question. Barring injury, I would bet that 5 years from now, he has produced more positive plays than anyone other than Suh, McCoy, and maybe Dez Bryant. And I went to Minnesota and dislike the Wolverine program. But he's good, and a good person as well, not a criminal.

J-Mike88
03-16-2010, 08:28 AM
Recently Daniel Jeremiah (former Browns/Ravens scout) said he's talked to three teams that have Graham ahead of Derrick Morgan. He went on to say that Graham will be gone before 20th Overall. I wouldn't be all too shocked to see a team like Denver, Miami, or San Francisco take a shot in the Top 15.
I believe it. Too bad for my Packers at #23 then. At least we trade up to get Clay last year. Thanks Patriots.

rickscott
03-16-2010, 10:32 AM
That is what's missing. He's not very tall, has short arms and isn't a blazer.

Just a tough, productive football player. Hope the Bengals don't overlook him at #21.

ironman4579
03-16-2010, 10:43 AM
Roll your eyes all you want you have no evidence to the contrary. Even at the Senior Bowl he didn't go up against good tackles cause they weren't there. It's not his fault he did his job against the gut across from him but people who think he's anything more than a hustle guy will be sorely disappointed

Um, Gabe Carimi of Wisconsin?

2009-11 tackles, 4 TFL's, 2 sacks, 1 FF
2008-6 tackles, 3 TFL's, 3 sacks, 2 FF's

So in two games, 17 tackles, 7 TFL's, 5 sacks, 3 FF's.

Saints-Tigers
03-16-2010, 11:05 AM
He's an easy pick for the Saints if he is still there at 32.

Morton
03-16-2010, 11:07 AM
He's an easy pick for the Saints if he is still there at 32.

LMAO.

He's not making it past the top 20 unless all of the other GMs in the league are brain-dead.

Saints-Tigers
03-16-2010, 11:16 AM
LMAO.

He's not making it past the top 20 unless all of the other GMs in the league are brain-dead.

But he doesn't have long arms!!!! HE CANT DO BACKFLIPS

CC.SD
03-16-2010, 11:34 AM
LaMarr Woodley is by far the best comparison for Graham.

I think it's Larry English, with all the good and bad that comes with that. He's beastly on the college turf but there's always question marks if a guy isn't a burner and has a less than ideal build.

P-L
03-16-2010, 12:17 PM
Roll your eyes all you want you have no evidence to the contrary. Even at the Senior Bowl he didn't go up against good tackles cause they weren't there. It's not his fault he did his job against the gut across from him but people who think he's anything more than a hustle guy will be sorely disappointed
Why does it matter how many NFL caliber tackles he went up against? There are 10,000+ football players in the NCAA. Only around 5%- 8% will go on to be NFL starters at some point in their careers. You can say that about ANY prospect, yet you only choose to acknowledge it as a weakness for Graham.

ironman4579
03-16-2010, 12:32 PM
I think it's Larry English, with all the good and bad that comes with that. He's beastly on the college turf but there's always question marks if a guy isn't a burner and has a less than ideal build.

I'd have to completely disagree with you here. Woodley is a far better comparison as a prospect than English, from measurables all the way down to high school position.

Height
Woodley-6014
Graham-6013
English-6021

Weight
Woodley-266
Graham-268
English-255

40 time (combine/Pro day for Woodley)
Woodley-4.74
Graham-4.72
English-4.82

Bench Reps
Woodley-29
Graham-31
English-24

10 yard Split
Woodley-1.65
Graham-1.61
English-1.61

20 yard split
Woodley-2.72
Graham-2.69
English-2.75

Both Graham and Woodley were 5 star MLB prospects out of high school that ended up at DE when they put on some weight. Woodley and Graham are basically the same player. I'm sorry, the Graham/Woodley comparison is just too perfect to try and shoehorn someone else in there because you want to try.

Morton
03-16-2010, 12:33 PM
Just a quick question: how many of you who were studying the Draft process back in 2002 thought Dwight Freeney would make the impact that he did in the NFL?

I didn't watch the draft back then, but I'm curious if anyone who did watch college prospects back then projected that kind of production out of Freeney despite his lack of height and whatnot.

Michigan
03-16-2010, 12:34 PM
Both Graham and Woodley were 5 star MLB prospects out of high school that ended up at DE when they put on some weight. Woodley and Graham are basically the same player. I'm sorry, the Graham/Woodley comparison is just too perfect to try and shoehorn someone else in there because you want to try.

heh, Graham comes out on top in all of the categories you compared (except height). :)

CC.SD
03-16-2010, 12:53 PM
Woodley and Graham are basically the same player. I'm sorry, the Graham/Woodley comparison is just too perfect to try and shoehorn someone else in there because you want to try.

I don't have an agenda, I see a lot of similarities in their build and game, so I thought I'd mention it. Who would say that Graham is a worse prospect than English? Nobody.

Morton
03-16-2010, 02:41 PM
So is Woodley = Graham more apt than Freeney = Graham?

I'm guessing so, because of the discrepancies in the 40 times.

Spartan4224
03-16-2010, 03:48 PM
He's missing the height, but that's about it. However, I think it's an advantage because he can push offensive tackles back in the passing game.

Will not knock down a lot of passes and his coverage skills are still a mystery. Was the only player I liked on Michigan's team last year. Got doubled a lot and still produced.

TitanHope
03-16-2010, 04:38 PM
Nothing, in my opinion. Some physical attributes, but nothing on-the-field is absent. The guy's a legit beast, and my #3 desired DE for the Titans behind #1 Derrick Morgan and #2 JPP.

contento
03-16-2010, 04:46 PM
I'd have to completely disagree with you here. Woodley is a far better comparison as a prospect than English, from measurables all the way down to high school position.

Height
Woodley-6014
Graham-6013
English-6021

Weight
Woodley-266
Graham-268
English-255

40 time (combine/Pro day for Woodley)
Woodley-4.74
Graham-4.72
English-4.82

Bench Reps
Woodley-29
Graham-31
English-24

10 yard Split
Woodley-1.65
Graham-1.61
English-1.61

20 yard split
Woodley-2.72
Graham-2.69
English-2.75




I don't wanna thread hijack, but just for fun compare Te'o-Nesheim's numbers with all these fellas...

ironman4579
03-16-2010, 06:18 PM
I don't have an agenda, I see a lot of similarities in their build and game, so I thought I'd mention it. Who would say that Graham is a worse prospect than English? Nobody.

I wasn't trying to imply you had an agenda, just that really, no other player compares as closely to Graham as Woodley. I've always been fond of using Trent Cole as well as a 4-3 DE.

thetedginnshow
03-16-2010, 06:19 PM
I'd have to completely disagree with you here. Woodley is a far better comparison as a prospect than English, from measurables all the way down to high school position.

Both Graham and Woodley were 5 star MLB prospects out of high school that ended up at DE when they put on some weight. Woodley and Graham are basically the same player. I'm sorry, the Graham/Woodley comparison is just too perfect to try and shoehorn someone else in there because you want to try.

I think that's a poor way to look at it though. Because saying that you're sort of making the assumption that they'd be good at the same things. They played the same position but Woodley and Graham didn't play it the same way, and it doesn't make sense to just throw up some of the measurables because in that case, you compare Gholston's to them and he makes them all look terrible (save for the 3 cone and short shuttle, which is really what should have been looked at most). And just as a prospect, Graham outclasses Woodley and English pretty decently.

ironman4579
03-16-2010, 06:24 PM
I think that's a poor way to look at it though. Because saying that you're sort of making the assumption that they'd be good at the same things. They played the same position but Woodley and Graham didn't play it the same way, and it doesn't make sense to just throw up some of the measurables because in that case, you compare Gholston's to them and he makes them all look terrible (save for the 3 cone and short shuttle, which is really what should have been looked at most). And just as a prospect, Graham outclasses Woodley and English pretty decently.

Graham hasn't done the 3 cone or short shuttle yet so.............................

Graham is a better prospect, but can you think of a guy that he compares more closely to that Woodley? And to be quite honest, their play is very similiar.

Aloysius
03-16-2010, 07:59 PM
Isn't it one of Graham's strengths that he has beaten a lot of guys who are considered to be NFL-caliber tackles? He beat an albeit not 100% Bulaga with speed, overpowered RT Kyle Calloway, was too quick for Carimi, and did some very nice work against draft riser Rodger Saffold.

2xwFyT3u2CQ

Against better tackle competition, Brandon Graham looked very good.

wogitalia
03-16-2010, 09:03 PM
Even if you say he could be the next Woodley or Harrison on the outside those guys were 2nd round and free agent types.

I think those guys will actually help to push him higher. The amount of teams that are currently regretting not taking Doom, Woodley and Harrison because they weren't prototypical height is going to push teams to stop looking at such irrelevant things as height. Honestly, everything you teach a DL is to stay low, I don't get this obsession with trying to get guys who start out at a serious disadvantage to doing that.

Honestly, look at the league right now, they are obsessed with 6'7 tackles, what better way to beat a 6'7 tackle than to be a short, stocky and powerful mofo that starts out and stays under their pad level and can move them at will, not to mention blow by them before they can get down to get their arms and hands to a good pad level to block. Check the stats, last year 6 of the top 10 pass rushers were 6'3 or shorter, another 2 were 6'4. 6'4 and above seems to be what constitutes good size but is the NFL just wrong on that? Just to show it was an anomaly, 7 of 15 were 6'3 or under in 2008, again with another 2 that were 6'4.

Pass rushing is like nearly every thing in football, lowest man wins. Why does it not make sense that a guy who starts lower and has to go less distance to get low is going to win a lot of his battles. If you can fit 265+ on a frame under 6'4 and move like most guys that size can it makes sense that you are going to be a pretty damn powerful guy, with shorter arms meaning less distance to transfer that power(ie quicker). Guys like Mathis, Woodley, Cole, Freeney, Harrison and Porter have shown that those "undersized" guys can have great success, as both 3-4 and 4-3 pass rushers, I expect that Graham will join them and so will a couple of the other undersized guys. Also worth noting perhaps that the Colts, Steelers and Eagles have made a living off these types of guys, 3 of the best teams over the last decade whilst the league has become obsessed with height and size, whilst the teams drafting prototypes like the Raiders and Rams have not been anywhere near as good. Something to it or just pure coincidence?

J-Mike88
03-16-2010, 09:22 PM
Bringing some facts, all the way from the Land Down Under. Thanks mate... again, it's about production, not body-building contests. And Brandon Graham simply produces. And he's a high character guy to boot.

He's a for sure top-ten talent, and I bet will out-produce everyone in this draft except perhaps 3-5 players, when all is said and done. I just wish it would be in Green & Gold!

wogitalia
03-17-2010, 12:07 AM
Thanks mate... again, it's about production, not body-building contests.

That's the thing though. Take away that height number and Graham is winning the body building contest as well. I can see height for a QB, I can see it for a MLB and even a more traditional OLB, I buy it pretty much everywhere except for a specialist pass rusher type, the guy who is pinning his ears back on nearly every play, they shouldn't need to see over the line because they should be going over, around or through it, not being blocked by it and I think there is enough evidence to show that height is not playing any correlation to sacks, in fact if anything, it is showing the opposite. Short players make up a disproportionate amount of the sack leaders, I just think that if it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck then you can be pretty sure its a duck and to me it seems pretty damn obvious that being short is not the detriment to pass rushing that the mainstream has portrayed.


I just wish it would be in Green & Gold!

As someone who has to face you twice a year... please God no. One beastly pass rusher is more than enough. Last thing you guys is another bigtime playmaker.