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PrimetimeTheDon
03-17-2010, 02:01 PM
Read. Learn. Discuss.

You guys get this first because your biggest competitor is giving me issues with viruses so I can't visit it on this CPU.

1. Jimmy Clausen
It's really this simple folks, Clausen not only Can make all the throws, he DOES make all the throws. I've been a Clausen skeptic for years now. I've watched him play as much as any player in this years class and due to some personal distaste for ND and Charlie Weis I think my opinion on him was skewed and I had him rated as a late first/ early second guy.

Then, I turned on the tape for review. Wow. This kid makes every throw on every single point of the field. There are no limitations. It's not dump-offs, and it's not bad passes that are bailed out by his outstanding WR/TE core. No, it's accurate passing all over the lot. The deep out, the Post, the fade (of course), the skinny post, the drag.

He goes through progressions well and takes the snap from under center with ease.

And, his release and mechanics are smooth and compact.

It's all there. It's all accurate. And he has also grown into a smart thrower who does not turn over the ball often.

Go to espn.com 360 and find some ND games if you disagree. Watch a Oklahoma game soley focusing on Bradford, then watch a ND game. Notice the wide disparity in the places each player throws the ball.

The question with Clausen is his character. Is this guy a leader of men? My first inclination is No, and that is why, despite his tools and success, I won't rank him in my top 5 overall. He is icey under pressure though, and he makes every throw.

1st round, picks 8-15.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hHuwPPRC6H4

2. Sam Bradford
It's very simple to see the long and short of Sam Bradford. Put simply, he is deadly accurate inside 15 yards. He very rarely was asked to throw the ball beyond 15 yards and this is a serious concern. However, unlike most system QB's coming out of college, his accuracy inside 15 is stunning and undeniable. It's not just drags or in's, something Brian Brohm excelled at, it's also outs and fades. The outs are the key. He can throw the out very well inside 15 yards.

Bradford is mobile enough to move the pocket and make very accurate throws on the move as well. He has a great understanding of when to throw with touch and when to throw a strike. He throws what they say is, "a very catchable ball".

His release is fast and he keeps the ball high. Two things essential for QB success in the NFL.

Go to ESPN 360 and watch an Oklahoma game you want. You'll see about 4-6 balls thrown beyond 15 yards, maybe 2-3 completed beyond 15 yards. (we're talking in that 12-20 yard range here folks, 15 being a solid generalization). It's something that is simply not talked about enough but is still glaringly obvious and available to see on all game tape.

I think Sam is limited to a West Coast system in the NFL, at least to start. He made about 75% of his throws out of the shotgun the past two years and that is something he'll have to adjust to as well.

Another concern is his ability to read and make progressions. He wasn't asked to do a whole of it at OU and it's just another thing he will be asked to overcome early in his career.

His accuracy is undeniable though and seperates him from your typical big-stat system QB.

First Round picks 15-25.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0w-gL0PSvNk&feature=fvst

3. Tim Tebow
It's simple, Tebow can and does make every throw. He is accurate, his arm is strong, his deep ball is elite, he can work the sidelines adequately and he is mobile. He has shown tremendous leadership and has excelled under pressure. He is not a "1 read then take off and run" thrower, he has shown he is capable of going through progressions to find the 3rd option for a check down 1st down or a deep ball big play.

All of this is there on tape.

Another thing that Tim possesses that is so crucial for NFL QB's is work ethic. You already know the guy is going to be a total film *****. You know the guy wants it more than anybody.

Tebow is the complete package.

One massive problem here though - his release is molasses and that will not fly in the NFL. Period. Period end of story. Look at every probowl QB from the last 4 years in teh NFL, then switch to a clip of Tebow. The difference is painfully glaring.

There is also another problem - Tebow, when he does take off, is a power runner. I'd say 85% of his runs in college were designed runs (again, he has shown the ability to make progressions or be flushed from the pocket and find a WR downfield instead of just running every time, something Colt McCoy struggles with) and when he did run, he was as big as the linebackers he was slamming his shoulder into. That run-style will not fly in the NFL. He can be a great goalline runner ala Big Ben but he is not Mike Vick and he will be punished with a power-style in the NFL. He is a QB not a FB and despite his bulk and power a QB can not work through the same types of injuries that FB"s and RB's do. Broken fingers are major issues, let alone banged up shoulders or knees or feet, etc.

This is higher than most would rank him but I don't think his raw ability, work ethic, or leadership can be denied.

Round 2
32-45

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qKUABxhWGQA&feature=PlayList&p=9E610C096EBA82DF&playnext=1&playnext_from=PL&index=10

4. Tony Pike
I like Tony Pike a lot due to his elusiveness in the pocket, height, and playmaking ability. There was a time I considered Pike a late first round option. I've since been a little more critical of him and I have to draw rating back, but only a little bit.

I think Pike is a risky pick. He has shown durability issues, his arm would only be average by NFL standards, he comes from a shotgun offense, and he has not started for very long.

But he has shown the ability to be very accurate throwing the ball down the field, not just on slants and drags like most spread QB's. He has shown that he can hit every point of the field and he is not afraid to let it rip and give his WR's a chance to make a play. He plays to win, he does not play not to lose. I have, however, seen him become rattled and frustrated, something guys like Locker and Clausen do not have problems with.

He is also quite accurate inside 15 yards.

I like Pike's release as well. He gets the ball out quickly and at 6-6 he gets the ball over the lineman with ease. His mobility behind the line of scrimmage is also outstanding. His biggest strength is his ability to avoid the rush, get out of the pocket and make a throw downfield. He's a playmaker.

Pike is a risky prospect but I think his upside gives him a mid 2nd round grade.

Round 2
picks 35-55

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sv7qqIFAh5Y

5. Jevan Snead
Snead looks like an NFL QB. He is thick, he is mobile enough, he has a strong arm and a beautiful release and has flashed the ability to be an accurate down-the-field passer. Unfortunately, he is terrible when under pressure and he's developed into a terrible decision maker. With a shoddy line Snead totally fell apart this year make jaw-dropping decision after jaw-dropping decision.

I think Snead has a massive upside and that's why he lands in my top 5 despite having a disastrous season. His arm is perhaps the strongest in the draft and his release is perhaps the prettiest. Unfortunately, his decision making is poor and his accuracy suffers because he is not poised behind a struggling Oline.

Is this too high? It's very possible. But he has the best tools in this class and it's not like he hasn't flashed those tools at a very high level in the past.

Snead is a project, but i'd take him before LeFevour who is terribly unrefined, Colt McCoy is a pure system QB, or Jarrett Brown who is big and has flashed talent but is not overly accurate and very far from NFL ready.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rILn_jv_OXg
Round 3









*note*
I have never seen Skelton play and therefore I can not rate him. If someone could find tape of him I'd love to review it.

PrimetimeTheDon
03-18-2010, 04:17 PM
1 view?

I wonder if I can edit the title?

RealityCheck
03-18-2010, 04:49 PM
Sam Bradford a Top 15-25 pick?

Explain it.

ThePudge
03-18-2010, 04:56 PM
Sam Bradford a Top 15-25 pick?

Explain it.

What he said. There's just no way that kind of thing happens and even if you grade him in the 15-25 range as a player Franchise Quarterback prospects deserve inflation due to their potential for stability & wins.

Sam Bradford is 3rd on my board, Clausen 7th currently. If they can come in and provide stability for a franchise for 6-8 years (or more) and be even just a solid NFL starter at the position then they are easily worth Top 10 picks. Now, Bradford in my opinion is more than just a "solid NFL starter" and he'll most likely go 1st Overall & the new face of the St. Louis Rams. I see a winner with excellent mechanics, intangibles, and all the physical ability (athleticism/arm strength) he needs to be a great West Coast Offense Quarterback.

PrimetimeTheDon
03-18-2010, 04:58 PM
Sam Bradford a Top 15-25 pick?

Explain it.



It's very simple to see the long and short of Sam Bradford. Put simply, he is deadly accurate inside 15 yards. He very rarely was asked to throw the ball beyond 15 yards and this is a serious concern. However, unlike most system QB's coming out of college, his accuracy inside 15 is stunning and undeniable. It's not just drags or in's, something Brian Brohm excelled at, it's also outs and fades. The outs are the key. He can throw the out very well inside 15 yards.

Bradford is mobile enough to move the pocket and make very accurate throws on the move as well. He has a great understanding of when to throw with touch and when to throw a strike. He throws what they say is, "a very catchable ball".

His release is fast and he keeps the ball high. Two things essential for QB success in the NFL.

Go to ESPN 360 and watch an Oklahoma game you want. You'll see about 4-6 balls thrown beyond 15 yards, maybe 2-3 completed beyond 15 yards. (we're talking in that 12-20 yard range here folks, 15 being a solid generalization). It's something that is simply not talked about enough but is still glaringly obvious and available to see on all game tape.

I think Sam is limited to a West Coast system in the NFL, at least to start. He made about 75% of his throws out of the shotgun the past two years and that is something he'll have to adjust to as well.

Another concern is his ability to read and make progressions. He wasn't asked to do a whole of it at OU and it's just another thing he will be asked to overcome early in his career.

His accuracy is undeniable though and seperates him from your typical big-stat system QB.

First Round picks 15-25.

http://draftcountdown.com/forum/showthread.php?t=39530

Addict
03-18-2010, 05:00 PM
did Colt McCoy die?

PrimetimeTheDon
03-18-2010, 05:03 PM
What he said. There's just no way that kind of thing happens and even if you grade him in the 15-25 range as a player Franchise Quarterback prospects deserve inflation due to their potential for stability & wins.

Sam Bradford is 3rd on my board, Clausen 7th currently. If they can come in and provide stability for a franchise for 6-8 years (or more) and be even just a solid NFL starter at the position then they are easily worth Top 10 picks. Now, Bradford in my opinion is more than just a "solid NFL starter"

The fact that you would rate a Matt Hasselbeck level QB 3rd on your board, as a "solid NFL starter" is mind boggling.

I understand the concept of ranking QB's higher on a big board due to value, but you need to really think about the contradiction you just made.

You'd spend the #3 overall pick on a QB you think will be solid. A QB that you don't think is good enough to lead a team to a superbowl, because after all, when is the last time a solid QB actually won a superbowl? Trent Dilfer a decade ago in a league not as dependent on passing as it is now with an atg defense?



and he'll most likely go 1st Overall & the new face of the St. Louis Rams. I see a winner with excellent mechanics, intangibles, and all the physical ability (athleticism/arm strength) he needs to be a great West Coast Offense Quarterback.

? Physical Ability importance is minimized when put into a WC system, I'd sure hope he's has at least that much physical ability. H

I don't see the intangibles part either, honestly. 1-2 against Texas and 0-2 in bowls.

Addict
03-18-2010, 05:11 PM
The fact that you would rate a Matt Hasselbeck level QB 3rd on your board, as a "solid NFL starter" is mind boggling.


I think most of the teams picking in the top 10 would kill their mothers to have a solid starting QB for 10 seasons. I really do. And I repeat: did Colt McCoy die?

ThePudge
03-18-2010, 05:14 PM
First Round picks 15-25.

http://draftcountdown.com/forum/showthread.php?t=39530

How do explain First Round picks 15-25? You understand the draft isn't simply power rankings? How does he go 15-25 with teams like St. Louis, Washington, and Cleveland buzzing with interest in the Top 7. With Seattle (6)/Buffalo (9)/ Jacksonville (10) sitting right there I don't see any realistic way he falls out of the Top 10, let alone to the 15-25 range. This isn't a Brady Quinn or Aaron Rodgers pitfall situation, there are at least six teams that need Quarterbacks in the Top Ten!

I disagree with your Bradford assessments and since you linked your assessment, I'll do the same. I read yours, and while I'll agree he wasn't asked to take many shots downfield his accuracy, touch, & velocity were still near impeccable within the 15-25 range. His deep ball will need some reps & work, but that's apparently just what it's getting in his training. Up to 236 now, he has added bulk and says he feels his arm is stronger than before, citing that as the only difference prior to the injury. You have to remember the large majority of throws in a West Coast Offense (St. Louis/Washington/Cleveland) come in the 5-15 range, but also asks for 15-25 throws (which Bradford has shown he can do), and a rarer deep ball (where Bradford needs work but has shown improvement & will get time to develop.)



Sam Bradford – QB – Oklahoma
6′4 1/4 – 236 – 4.78e
#1 Quarterback – #3 Overall

Since the day Sam Bradford became the starting Quarterback for the Oklahoma Sooners, he was a star. In his (Redshirt) Freshman year he was the most efficient QB in the nation, and as a Sophomore he won the Heisman Trophy as the best player in college football. If he had declared for the 2009 NFL Draft, he would have likely been a Top 2 Pick perhaps to the St. Louis Rams. In the most recent example of a player making the wrong decision regarding underclassman entry into the draft, Bradford was hurt the first week when he landed on his throwing shoulder, then later re-injured it in October. It’s hard to ignore his body of work on the field though and despite his serious durability question (and a few others) he’s likely a Top 5 pick in this draft and the top player at his position.

At 6′4 236, Sam Bradford has the prototypical NFL Quarterback build, he has excellent pocket presence, and he throws an accurate ball with great zip. On film I’m most impressed by Bradford in this class, though his learning curve remains higher than his competition Jimmy Clausen. In college, he may not have played in a pro-style offense, but he did an unbelievable job at surveying the field, reading defenses, and finding the open man. He’s extremely smart on and off the field and has the look of a film-room junky. Even on the move, Sam can be seen surveying the field and checking his options. Though he’ll have to adjust to dropping back from under center, his footwork and throwing mechanics are solid. He steps into his throws and usually throws with a high release point and a compact delivery. He finds open receivers, gets the ball out on time, and fires off his back foot.

There is some question as to how good Bradford’s arm is. He has a good, but not great, NFL arm. His system didn’t have him throw too many deep balls and when he did he showed the ability to put the ball downfield accurately, though it’s not necessarily the prettiest all the time. He’ll need a lot of reps leading up to the draft throwing 40+ yard passes and should be fine. His arm strength really shows on his intermediate throws between 10-25 yards, where he displays great command, a tight spiral, and very good zip. Bradford’s capable of making most if not any NFL throw and hits receivers 20 yards downfield on the far hash, in stride, with that same velocity.

He’s an extremely accurate passer with a lot of patience and confidence. He fits the ball into to tight spots and is capable squeezing throws in through traffic. Bradford shows a lot of touch on his short passes and can drop balls in downfield as well. His ball is very catchable and he commands his teammates respect on the field and in the locker room. He distributes the ball very well and shows rhythm & timing standing in the pocket. Outside the pocket, his athletic background (including Golf and Basketball) help him as he does not appear so stiff or slow when the heat is on. He’s very capable of picking up yards with his feet, and can escape from pressure and throw on the move.

There’s a lot of concern over Sam Bradford’s injuries and his adjustment to a pro-style offense. His recurring shoulder injuries are going to be obstacle for him to climb and there is legitimate concern that durability is going to be an issue at the next level (especially now that he can’t lean on the shotgun formation.) He claimed the shoulder was 85% at the Combine, he had been throwing 100-120 passes in his sessions recently, and will throw for scouts/NFL execs on March 29th. His inexperience in a pro-style offense is another cause for concern, as he played his college career in mostly the shotgun formation behind the nation’s best Offensive Line. Bradford’s a rhythm passer, and he’ll need to adjust his footwork in the pocket and tweak his throwing mechanics to be a consistent player.

At the Combine, Bradford weighed in impressively, interviewed very well, and scored an exceptional 36 on his Wonderlic. I expect he’ll build a strong relationship with the top teams and figures to be off the board among the draft’s first four picks. Were it not for injuries, we may be talking about Bradford as the unanimous top pick in the draft realistically. He will be seen as a Franchise Quarterback to the team that drafts him.

Pros
+ Pocket presence, is very calm, patient, and keeps his eyes active
+ Prototypical NFL Size/Athlete at 6′4 236 with athletic background
+ Strong arm, shows great zip on intermediate passes, can make every throw
+ Very precise and accurate, developed great timing, fits the ball into tight spots
+ Footwork in/out of the pocket, steps into his throws, good escapability
+ Very intelligent, cerebral player who reads defense/sees the entire field
+ Leader and a Winner, great command of his team & won games
+ Work ethic, a blue-collar worker on the field, in the weight room, & in the classroom
+ Unbelievably Productive, Decorated QB, 2009 Heisman Trophy Winner
+ Likable Personality, personable guy and a well-liked/respected teammate
+ Good Throwing Mechanics, keeps the ball high and has a compact delivery
+ A young new face for the team that drafts him to play QB

Cons
- Durability a major red flag, recurring injuries to throwing shoulder sidelined him in 2009
- Played in a spread offense, saw mostly man coverage & lined up mostly shotgun
- Needs to make adjustments to his footwork to become a drop-back passer
- Was surrounded by a strong supporting cast and the nation’s top OL
- Not the prettiest deep ball, not a lot of experience airing the ball out 40+ yards
- High learning curve/risk for Top 5 pick

Why the Rams will draft Sam Bradford 1st Overall
- The prototypical 6′4 236 Quarterback fits the team’s West Coast offense and brings a fresh face and a winning attitude. Sam Bradford brings a well-liked, well-established college football star to St. Louis to turn around the Rams losing ways. He brings all the physical tools necessary to be a star QB, has the intangible qualities you look for, and would likely start from Day One in St. Louis. Last year before the Underclassmen deadline there was speculation the Rams could look to Bradford with the 2nd Overall Pick and the idea makes the same sense today. He goes to St. Louis as a try-hard guy with plenty of God given talent (like Jason Smith) and he brings a much needed fresh face to the passing game. The injuries don’t deter Spagnuolo as Bradford’s had ample time to heal and has shown the ability to make any throw. A Franchise Quarterback in St. Louis.

STsACE
03-18-2010, 05:41 PM
The fact that you would rate a Matt Hasselbeck level QB 3rd on your board, as a "solid NFL starter" is mind boggling.

I understand the concept of ranking QB's higher on a big board due to value, but you need to really think about the contradiction you just made.

You'd spend the #3 overall pick on a QB you think will be solid. A QB that you don't think is good enough to lead a team to a superbowl, because after all, when is the last time a solid QB actually won a superbowl? Trent Dilfer a decade ago in a league not as dependent on passing as it is now with an atg defense?



? Physical Ability importance is minimized when put into a WC system, I'd sure hope he's has at least that much physical ability. H

I don't see the intangibles part either, honestly. 1-2 against Texas and 0-2 in bowls.

Can't believe I'm gonna do this as a Browns fans, but I'm sticking up for the Bengals fan on this one.

Many teams who need solid QB play would love to be able to spend their #3 pick on a QB, who you claim to be a Hasselbeck type of guy. It would get many teams out of picking in the top 10 year in and year out and would make them competitive. Thus, FAs would want to go there because they have a chance to win, not just because it's the biggest offer, something every bottom ranked team has to do to pry top FAs away from contending teams.

Clausens biggest concern shouldn't be his leadership, that should be 2nd. The bigger question surrounding Clausen is his potential. If there is limited upside, then Bradford is clearly the better choice as he offers more upside.

The "mind-boggling" thing to me is Tebow, who has to rework his mechanics and footwork completely, most likely a 3 year project to get rid of that stuff. Maybe he becomes nothing when he's not in his comfort zone of what he's done his whole career. And McCoy, is not on the list. If you have Clausen above Bradford because he's more ready, then by your reasoning, McCoy should be #3 above Tebow as he's more ready than Tebow.

Can't believe I just attempted to stick up for a Bengal fan.

Babylon
03-18-2010, 05:45 PM
It's very simple to see the long and short of Sam Bradford. Put simply, he is deadly accurate inside 15 yards. He very rarely was asked to throw the ball beyond 15 yards and this is a serious concern. However, unlike most system QB's coming out of college, his accuracy inside 15 is stunning and undeniable. It's not just drags or in's, something Brian Brohm excelled at, it's also outs and fades. The outs are the key. He can throw the out very well inside 15 yards.

Bradford is mobile enough to move the pocket and make very accurate throws on the move as well. He has a great understanding of when to throw with touch and when to throw a strike. He throws what they say is, "a very catchable ball".

His release is fast and he keeps the ball high. Two things essential for QB success in the NFL.

Go to ESPN 360 and watch an Oklahoma game you want. You'll see about 4-6 balls thrown beyond 15 yards, maybe 2-3 completed beyond 15 yards. (we're talking in that 12-20 yard range here folks, 15 being a solid generalization). It's something that is simply not talked about enough but is still glaringly obvious and available to see on all game tape.

I think Sam is limited to a West Coast system in the NFL, at least to start. He made about 75% of his throws out of the shotgun the past two years and that is something he'll have to adjust to as well.

Another concern is his ability to read and make progressions. He wasn't asked to do a whole of it at OU and it's just another thing he will be asked to overcome early in his career.

His accuracy is undeniable though and seperates him from your typical big-stat system QB.

First Round picks 15-25.

http://draftcountdown.com/forum/showthread.php?t=39530

Not sure i disagree with you assessment of Bradford but he'll be long gone by that range. I dont see him getting past the top 6 or 7 picks.

ThePudge
03-18-2010, 05:48 PM
Can't believe I'm gonna do this as a Browns fans, but I'm sticking up for the Bengals fan on this one.


Can't believe I just attempted to stick up for a Bengal fan.

You never know, this guy may be a Steelers fan. You might have done the right thing haha

As for Hasselbeck, I think Bradford can be better than him but if that's his floor then I'll take it. He started nine years in Seattle, six good ones. The Seahawks were able to build a winning franchise around him for the better part of the decade and I think that's well worth a Top 10 pick. I think he's a guy that has a very high ceiling and only a few people (including Charlie Casserly) are talking about it. The risk is fairly high, but in a WCO he could be a star. That's an opinion, but it's an opinion I think St. Louis/Washington/Cleveland share.

metafour
03-18-2010, 06:00 PM
I disagree on the Tebow assessment - he's NOT a "complete package" who just has bad mechanics. He also goes through reads slowly and often misses reads period. An elite quarterback will get rid of the ball as the receiver is just starting to create separation, they'll see openings before they are there. When I watch Tebow I often see him holding onto the ball until the receiver is wide open. Does he do this all the time? No, but enough that it is noticeable.

STsACE
03-18-2010, 06:16 PM
You never know, this guy may be a Steelers fan. You might have done the right thing haha

As for Hasselbeck, I think Bradford can be better than him but if that's his floor then I'll take it. He started nine years in Seattle, six good ones. The Seahawks were able to build a winning franchise around him for the better part of the decade and I think that's well worth a Top 10 pick. I think he's a guy that has a very high ceiling and only a few people (including Charlie Casserly) are talking about it. The risk is fairly high, but in a WCO he could be a star. That's an opinion, but it's an opinion I think St. Louis/Washington/Cleveland share.

So true on Hasselbeck. Especially since the Hawks made it to the SB, something we've yet to do. Many Browns fans would give a member of their family up to even get to the SB.

I didn't like the idea of Bradford prior to some moves made this offseason by our FO. Holmgren (West Coast Guy), our new GM. Haskell (West Coast Guy), brought in as an advisor to Daboll, we're hearing there will be more WCO philosophies in our O this year.

Also, considering Holmgren really can't be questioned about his success with QBs. He's worked with Montana, Young, Favre, Hasselbeck. So, I don't really see how anyone could try to argue with him on QBs. If Holmgren wants Bradford, that makes part of me want him too.

Addict
03-18-2010, 06:19 PM
You never know, this guy may be a Steelers fan. You might have done the right thing haha

As for Hasselbeck, I think Bradford can be better than him but if that's his floor then I'll take it. He started nine years in Seattle, six good ones. The Seahawks were able to build a winning franchise around him for the better part of the decade and I think that's well worth a Top 10 pick. I think he's a guy that has a very high ceiling and only a few people (including Charlie Casserly) are talking about it. The risk is fairly high, but in a WCO he could be a star. That's an opinion, but it's an opinion I think St. Louis/Washington/Cleveland share.

I think he ment you

PrimetimeTheDon
03-18-2010, 06:42 PM
Hey guys I don't have time to address everything right now but I wanted to clear one thing up-


When I say First round 15-25 I'm not saying that's where he'll go; I'm saying that's where I grade him at. I'm not saying he'll be drafted 15-25, I'm saying he'll find a spot on my big board between 15-25.

PrimetimeTheDon
03-18-2010, 06:47 PM
I'm a Steeler fan.

I don't see how Clausen's upside is limited. He has the arm to make all the throws and he's fairly athletic and has shown the ability to thrive in the clutch. That's upside. Upside is the ability to make all NFL throws consistently (something Clausen has actually done, Bradford has not yet) and thrive when it matters most (something Clausen has flashed and was forced to develop after playing with terrible cooridination and OLine play as a freshman and sophomore).

What is limited here? Bradford is the one who appears to be limited by system. Clausen shows the ability to transcend systems.

PrimetimeTheDon
03-18-2010, 06:50 PM
did Colt McCoy die?

Colt McCoy was a pure dink and dunk passer. He has never shown the ability to be an NFL QB. His pass variety is limited and he does not throw the ball all over the lot. He is accurate underneath, but he doesn't work the sidelines underneath like Bradford and he is not quite as accurate either. McCoy also is a first-read-then-take-off guy way too often as well. He is not patient in the pocket and too often takes off for 7 yards instead of buying time and making a pass down the field.

Great college player who is not equiped to succeed at the NFL level. I'd give him a 5th round grade. He could be a quality backup in the Seneca Wallace mold.

ThePudge
03-18-2010, 06:56 PM
What is limited here? Bradford is the one who appears to be limited by system. Clausen shows the ability to transcend systems.

How is limited by system? He played enough under center in college to learn how to throw out of five step drops & has looked great doing everything. He looks great surveying the field and unlike Tebow he's a quick, sound decision maker with excellent mechanics and good velocity on his short-intermediate throws.

The confusion came from "picks 15-25." Typically when someone differentiates their board from the actual draft the word "picks" is not used, as it leads everyone to believe you believe he'll go somewhere between picks 15 and 25. Not a big deal, just a strange way to word things.

PrimetimeTheDon
03-18-2010, 07:00 PM
How is limited by system? He played enough under center in college to learn how to throw five step drops & has looked great doing everything. He looks great surveying the field and unlike Tebow he's a quick, sound decision maker with excellent mechanics and good velocity on his short-intermediate throws.


He has looked great doing everything aside from throwing the ball beyond 15 yards and winning from behind. In your negatives you said "throwing the ball beyond 40 yards". Nah dude, that should read "throwing the ball beyond 20 yards" because it's very, very rare.

Watching Clausen and Bradford on tape the disparity is immediately evident. The youtube link I posted for Clausen is tremendous because it is wide angle just like coaches film and you can see him dropping the ball in the bucket at all points of the field; he puts the ball in all parts of the field bracket. In contrast, Bradford's throws are almost exclusively in the underneath portion of the field bracket.

If you know what I mean by field bracket. Like, divide the field up into thirds horizontally, then divide it into thirds vertically.

Meh, I'm being confusing. Just watch and see who completes passes beyond 15 yards more often. It's impossible to ignore.



The confusion came from "picks 15-25." Typically when someone differentiates their board from the actual draft the word "picks" is not used, as it leads everyone to believe you believe he'll go somewhere between picks 15 and 25. Not a big deal, just a strange way to word things.

Poor wording on my part, duly noted.

STsACE
03-18-2010, 08:15 PM
I'm a Steeler fan.

Guess, we were born to not like each other then LOL


What is limited here? Bradford is the one who appears to be limited by system. Clausen shows the ability to transcend systems.

I view Clausen "limited". If he doesn't have that leadership ability, he won't make it far.

Note: I haven't seen Bradford, like many others, throw in a long time. The reports that were coming out were stating that Bradford was really impressing and making remarkable strides in improving his arm strength. The injury seems to have been the best thing to happen to Bradford. Now, until he actually throws during workouts and whatnot, I like him better as he seems to fit our "system" that we're gearing towards, being more WCO.

Also, I had to deal with the Quinn saga for 3 years. So, I am a bit biased towards ND QBs. No biggie as Pudge pointed out that the wording is misleading.

Since I know you're a Steeler fan now, I'll never invite you to my house for dinner8)

ThePudge
03-18-2010, 08:18 PM
Nah dude, that should read "throwing the ball beyond 20 yards" because it's very, very rare.

Bradford's throws are almost exclusively in the underneath portion of the field bracket.

Meh, I'm being confusing. Just watch and see who completes passes beyond 15 yards more often. It's impossible to ignore.


I'm confused on why you're down on Bradford as a winner (24-4 as a starter) and higher on Jimmy Clausen whose big career win was over Hawaii. Bradford won the big games to put his team in bigger games (two BCS Bowls appearances & two Big XII Championship wins.) Clausen's the unproven one in big games.

Now, for this concern over his intermediate-deep passing. Because his offense didn't often ask him to do it very often doesn't mean he didn't and it doesn't mean that he didn't do a good job when he did. I thought Bradford did a great job throwing in the 15-30 yard area, albeit rarer than throwing underneath. How many WCO in the NFL throw more than 10 passes a game downfield? That's where he'll more than likely land (St. Louis).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DwstGmNajh0

I just want to point out the last two throws on that highlight video againt Florida. At 9:11 Bradford steps up and fires a pass 30 yards downfield outside the hash. At 9:28 notice the velocity when going 23 yards downfield throwing into traffic with Joe Haden in coverage on Juaquin Iglesias.

Other throws over 20 Yards...
- 1:38 vs. Washington - under-center
- 1:50 vs. Washington
- 1:57 vs. Washington - under-center
- 2:39 vs. Washington - under-center
- 3:24 vs. Texas
- 3:52 vs. Texas
- 4:25 vs. Texas
- 4:58 vs. Nebraska - under-center, on the move -> 30+ yards with touch
- 5:07 vs. Nebraska
- 5:50 vs. Nebraska
- 5:59 vs. Nebraska
- 6:10 vs. Nebraska
- 6:21 vs. Nebraska
- 6:41 vs. Missouri
- 7:47 vs. Missouri
- 8:03 vs. Missouri
- 8:35 vs. Missouri
- 9:07 vs. Missouri

All in addition to the original
- 9:12 vs. Florida
and - 9:28 vs. Florida

That's one highlight video and he goes 20+ on 20 throws. The zip is there, the accuracy is great. Go back and watch all those throws, you owe it to your assessment.

His arm strength & velocity is just what you want to see in the 20-30 area and I have no doubt about his ability to make every relevant NFL throw. As I said, his 40+ passes need some work but he may only be throwing one of those a game. A West-Coast offense is largely short, underneath throws and Bradford is terrific there. He has shown the ability to survey the field and throw 25+ to the far hash or to the middle of the field both with great velocity. And thanks to the emphasis being put on bulking up and rehabbing that right shoulder, his arm should be stronger than ever.

Guy can throw the football. I'm more impressed each time I watch him. That velocity (or zip) on passes beyond 20 yards was something that stood out to me this time. Thanks for the little draft exercise.

Addict
03-18-2010, 08:19 PM
Poor wording on my part, duly noted.

not poor per say, it may be completely normal to say it on other football fora, but it's just how it's used here. Since you're new here I guess you'll run into this kind of thing a few times.

PrimetimeTheDon
03-18-2010, 09:12 PM
I'm confused on why you're down on Bradford as a winner (24-4 as a starter) and higher on Jimmy Clausen whose big career win was over Hawaii. Bradford won the big games to put his team in bigger games (two BCS Bowls appearances & two Big XII Championship wins.) Clausen's the unproven one in big games.

Now, for this concern over his intermediate-deep passing. Because his offense didn't often ask him to do it very often doesn't mean he didn't and it doesn't mean that he didn't do a good job when he did. I thought Bradford did a great job throwing in the 15-30 yard area, albeit rarer than throwing underneath. How many WCO in the NFL throw more than 10 passes a game downfield? That's where he'll more than likely land (St. Louis).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DwstGmNajh0

I just want to point out the last two throws on that highlight video againt Florida. At 9:11 Bradford steps up and fires a pass 30 yards downfield outside the hash. At 9:28 notice the velocity when going 23 yards downfield throwing into traffic with Joe Haden in coverage on Juaquin Iglesias.

Other throws over 20 Yards...
- 1:38 vs. Washington - under-center
- 1:50 vs. Washington
- 1:57 vs. Washington - under-center
- 2:39 vs. Washington - under-center
- 3:24 vs. Texas
- 3:52 vs. Texas
- 4:25 vs. Texas
- 4:58 vs. Nebraska - under-center, on the move -> 30+ yards with touch
- 5:07 vs. Nebraska
- 5:50 vs. Nebraska
- 5:59 vs. Nebraska
- 6:10 vs. Nebraska
- 6:21 vs. Nebraska
- 6:41 vs. Missouri
- 7:47 vs. Missouri
- 8:03 vs. Missouri
- 8:35 vs. Missouri
- 9:07 vs. Missouri

All in addition to the original
- 9:12 vs. Florida
and - 9:28 vs. Florida

That's one highlight video and he goes 20+ on 20 throws. The zip is there, the accuracy is great. Go back and watch all those throws, you owe it to your assessment.

His arm strength & velocity is just what you want to see in the 20-30 area and I have no doubt about his ability to make every relevant NFL throw. As I said, his 40+ passes need some work but he may only be throwing one of those a game. A West-Coast offense is largely short, underneath throws and Bradford is terrific there. He has shown the ability to survey the field and throw 25+ to the far hash or to the middle of the field both with great velocity. And thanks to the emphasis being put on bulking up and rehabbing that right shoulder, his arm should be stronger than ever.

Guy can throw the football. I'm more impressed each time I watch him. That velocity (or zip) on passes beyond 20 yards was something that stood out to me this time. Thanks for the little draft exercise.

Pudge let us be honest, the vast majority of those throws are of the 17-23 yard variety in distance, but even fewer travel 20 yards beyond the LOS, and that's on a highlight tape.

Again, he is capable of working the sidelines inside 15 yards of the LOS, but beyond that he has not shown the ability to land the deep out or the deep post the same way Clausen has. Regardless of how much you appreciate Bradford's accuracy on underneath or intermediate throws, the fact is he's not completing footballs downfield as often or as impressively as Clausen.

Does that ruin him? Of course not. I rate him as a solid First Rounder after all. However, even after watching that tape the whole way through, to me it is obvious that 15 yards beyond the LOS is something he has not explored at a rate that most elite prospects do (Clausen included).

He may be a fine fit in STL, but as a player, he is not near the caliber overall that Kong Suh is and STL needs help in all facets of the game, not just QB. With that supporting cast, Bradford won't make them better quickly, and perhaps, ever. Suh, however, improves that team day 1 and for a decade. No doubt.

PrimetimeTheDon
03-18-2010, 09:15 PM
I view Clausen "limited". If he doesn't have that leadership ability, he won't make it far.

Note: I haven't seen Bradford, like many others, throw in a long time. The reports that were coming out were stating that Bradford was really impressing and making remarkable strides in improving his arm strength. The injury seems to have been the best thing to happen to Bradford. Now, until he actually throws during workouts and whatnot, I like him better as he seems to fit our "system" that we're gearing towards, being more WCO.

Also, I had to deal with the Quinn saga for 3 years. So, I am a bit biased towards ND QBs. No biggie as Pudge pointed out that the wording is misleading.

Since I know you're a Steeler fan now, I'll never invite you to my house for dinner8)

Well, you've already neg repped me so no, we probably won't ever be best friends. Also, you admit to not seeing Bradford throw for a long while, and then base your true opinion on him on his work in shorts, and that's just not my style.

ThePudge
03-18-2010, 09:25 PM
Pudge let us be honest, the vast majority of those throws are of the 17-23 yard variety in distance, but even fewer travel 20 yards beyond the LOS, and that's on a highlight tape.

Again, he is capable of working the sidelines inside 15 yards of the LOS, but beyond that he has not shown the ability to land the deep out or the deep post the same way Clausen has. Regardless of how much you appreciate Bradford's accuracy on underneath or intermediate throws, the fact is he's not completing footballs downfield as often or as impressively as Clausen.

Does that ruin him? Of course not. I rate him as a solid First Rounder after all. However, even after watching that tape the whole way through, to me it is obvious that 15 yards beyond the LOS is something he has not explored at a rate that most elite prospects do (Clausen included).

He may be a fine fit in STL, but as a player, he is not near the caliber overall that Kong Suh is and STL needs help in all facets of the game, not just QB. With that supporting cast, Bradford won't make them better quickly, and perhaps, ever. Suh, however, improves that team day 1 and for a decade. No doubt.

I'm looking at his back foot and distance the ball travels in the air with good velocity. They're all 20+ through the air. You couldn't get what you needed from those throws? In a 9 minute video he throws 20 over 20 yards to a variety of different spots on the field. Clausen's arm is not better than Bradford's and his deep ball needs equal work (Clausen's deep ball hangs in the air.) Jimmy Clausen's offense just required him to throw downfield (to guys like Michael Floyd and Golden Tate) more often. That doesn't make him a better prospect or mean he has a better arm. Before making assumptions, why don't you tell me what's wrong with Bradford's accuracy/velocity in throws of 20+? People with their eyes closed won't see anything.

I find your breakdown of the Rams at the end laughable and not well thought out. The potential for that franchise is much higher with Sam Bradford, who also improves the team drastically at the most important position in football. Ndamukong Suh is the worst fit out of the 4 options the Rams are looking at and Bill Devanney has said of Sam Bradford's March 29th showing the "final test." Devanney and the Rams Offensive Coordinator met with Bradford earlier this week and he'll throw for them privately April 12th. Every day Bradford 1st Overall is looking more and more like a lock.

STsACE
03-18-2010, 09:45 PM
Well, you've already neg repped me so no, we probably won't ever be best friends. Also, you admit to not seeing Bradford throw for a long while, and then base your true opinion on him on his work in shorts, and that's just not my style.

It goes both ways. Clausen has not taken over the #1 spot as he could have since Bradfords injury as well. He's also been injured and hasn't worked out yet either, to my knowledge.

Clausen didn't takeover the spot. And Bradford didn't hurt his stock when he was injured. Would've been different if Clausen showed that he could be a leader when Bradford went down. He seemed to let too much of the buzz around South Bend get to his head and affect his mind this past year. He'll have alot more distractions being drafted as a franchise QB that he'll have to deal with then he ever dealt with at South Bend.

I neg repped you because Pudge had the first feedback with stating his opinion.
Sam Bradford is 3rd on my board, Clausen 7th currently. If they can come in and provide stability for a franchise for 6-8 years (or more) and be even just a solid NFL starter at the position then they are easily worth Top 10 picks. Now, Bradford in my opinion is more than just a "solid NFL starter" and he'll most likely go 1st Overall & the new face of the St. Louis Rams. I see a winner with excellent mechanics, intangibles, and all the physical ability (athleticism/arm strength) he needs to be a great West Coast Offense Quarterback

The last line talks of a WCO QB and that's what he'd be great at. The first feedback you get and you call his opinion mind boggling.

Your very new, you bumped your own thread, and the first couple posts to start some good conversation you seem to be mad at because everyone doesn't view the QBs the same as you.

Didn't help either that your post started out as:

Read. Learn. Discuss.

I might take back the neg rep saying we can never be best friends.;)

Never hurts to have regular friends who have different, unbiased views, even if they're from a rival team. It's always nice to hear what people think of your team or way of thinking. But, I'll have to think about it......I'm gonna go ahead and take back the BFF necklace back to the store.....but, I'll still think about it.:D

PrimetimeTheDon
03-25-2010, 03:29 PM
Well, you've already neg repped me so no, we probably won't ever be best friends. Also, you admit to not seeing Bradford throw for a long while, and then base your true opinion on him on his work in shorts, and that's just not my style.

I'm looking at his back foot and distance the ball travels in the air with good velocity. They're all 20+ through the air. You couldn't get what you needed from those throws? In a 9 minute video he throws 20 over 20 yards to a variety of different spots on the field. Clausen's arm is not better than Bradford's and his deep ball needs equal work (Clausen's deep ball hangs in the air.) Jimmy Clausen's offense just required him to throw downfield (to guys like Michael Floyd and Golden Tate) more often. That doesn't make him a better prospect or mean he has a better arm. Before making assumptions, why don't you tell me what's wrong with Bradford's accuracy/velocity in throws of 20+? People with their eyes closed won't see anything.


I question if he has the arm strength to be effective 15 yards over the LOS. He has not shown me that he does have that arm strength. That raises questions, and when you combine it with the offense he came from and his fragile past, I have legitimate concerns that would keep me from rating him in the top 5.

The "zip" you talk about is only average, what makes Bradford effective on short throws is his great release. The ball gets out of his hand fast and that helps a ton on short throws. But when it comes time to air it out, are those mechanics so flawless? Is that ball still accurate? Can he make it catchable deep down field when the WR is still covered?

Tebow's mechanics aren't awful until he has to throw the ball deep. Obviously this is a DRASTIC EXAMPLE, so don't say I'm comparing the two, I'm just using an example.

Clausen's mechanics and accuracy on deep passes is fine. We know that because he showed it to us time and time again.

My issue is that he never completes deep balls. It's hard for me to tell you what is wrong with those throws when he almost never throws them. You turn on a Jimmy Clausen tape, within the first minute he throws a ball 30 yards in the air across the field on the numbers. You don't see that once from Bradford.

It'd be like asking me what is wrong with Colt Brennan's deep ball. Well, uh, he never threw them I don't really know.


You make a fair point but you're completley ignoring the fact that Bradford has never shown us the ability to throw the ball at all points of the field. Serious question, how can that possibly not concern you?



I find your breakdown of the Rams at the end laughable and not well thought out. The potential for that franchise is much higher with Sam Bradford, who also improves the team drastically at the most important position in football. Ndamukong Suh is the worst fit out of the 4 options the Rams are looking at and Bill Devanney has said of Sam Bradford's March 29th showing the "final test." Devanney and the Rams Offensive Coordinator met with Bradford earlier this week and he'll throw for them privately April 12th. Every day Bradford 1st Overall is looking more and more like a lock.

That's a fair point. If Bradford panned out and was able to become a Peyton Manning type passer, yes, he'd be more valuable than an Albert Haynesworth type DT. Absolutely. And the draft is about upside so yes I certainly see your point.

Your point is only valid if you see Bradford as a top 5 overall prospect though. And I honestly don't think he is, there is too much risk involved, and therefore I don't like him quite that much.

Even with the NFL nowadays being built for Bradford's style, I don't think he'll become an ATG and I'm not sure he is a super bowl caliber QB.

We touched on this before, but I wouldn't draft a Hasselbeck in the first half of the first round. Maybe not the first round at all.

Clarkw267
03-25-2010, 04:26 PM
The one thing that stands out to me about Bradford when I watch him (aside from the outstanding accuracy) is that he doesn't utilize his lower body properly in his throwing motion. He almost throws flat footed from a stand still. Yet he gets solid velocity on his intermediate passes, which tells me that he has a naturally strong arm.

If he works on his mechanics, and focuses on striding into his throws properly, and hip rotation, I think you will see a huge increase in velocity.. especially with the new bulk he's added to his frame.
He has the most upside of this class IMO, but I don't think the floor is as high as Clausen....

As for Clausen. Mechanically he is way ahead of the curve. He could stand to hold the ball a tad higher, but his drops and release are text book.

Pudge is right about his deep ball, it does have a tendency to float at times and I'm not sure why that is. He shows plenty of zip on his short to intermediate throws (especially the dig and the out). His decision making also improved by leaps and bounds over 2008. The question about Clausen for me has to be the intangibles and attitude.

Overall. I still think I take Bradford over Clausen, but both are top 10 guys IMO.

3pac
03-25-2010, 04:48 PM
I think you give Tebow far too much credit and Colt McCoy far too little. How does he not even make the list? I'm not saying he's #1 or something like that, but he didn't even make the list??

Edit: That said, I agree with you that Clausen is #1 ahead of Bradford. I think both will succeed in the NFL, but Clausen impresses me more.

no bare feet
03-25-2010, 05:20 PM
I have said it numerous times, I feel when we look back on this class 4-5 years from now Jevan Sneed will be the best QB out of this class. He sucked badly last year : (

JeffSamardzijaIRISH
03-25-2010, 06:56 PM
Clausen floating deep balls is somewhat a myth. He does get the ball up high, but most of the "floaters" are to Floyd, who is 6'3 and can go up high. The ones he throws to Tate are still high, but he hits Tate in stride most of the time.

Addict
03-25-2010, 06:57 PM
I have said it numerous times, I feel when we look back on this class 4-5 years from now Jevan Sneed will be the best QB out of this class. He sucked badly last year : (

I really still don't understand why he came out