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Jimmy
03-18-2010, 08:19 AM
It looks like that Stanford education is already starting to pay dividends for running back Toby Gerhart.

The Heisman Trophy finalist—who led the country in rushing yards (1,871) and touchdowns (28) in 2009—brought home the top score in the Wonderlic exam among this year’s running back class with a 30, according to a league source.

Some of the other top performers among the running backs include BYU’s Manase Tonga (29), LSU’s Charles Scott (26), Tennessee’s Montario Hardesty (25), Mississippi State’s Anthony Dixon (25) and North Dakota State’s Pat Paschall (25).

Rounding out the bottom of the class was Clemson’s C.J. Spiller, who scored a 10.

quote from another article: The Wonderlic Creators consider a 10 to be "literate."

So CJ Spiller is pretty much at a 4rd grade reading level.

iowatreat54
03-18-2010, 10:36 AM
Get that politically correct ******** out of here.

Seriously.

It may sound mean, but it could very well be true. Dude scored a ******* 10. A 10. I could close my eyes and jab a pencil at the piece of paper and probably score a 10.

Spiller might be legit mentally challenged. Look at Vince Young.

MizzouBig12
03-18-2010, 10:41 AM
That's okay. In today's NFL, "literate" is probably sufficient for a running back. As long as he can read and remember the playbook, and show up for meetings and practice on time, he'll be fine;-)

K Train
03-18-2010, 10:42 AM
RB is the first position i would take a dumbass at

yourfavestoner
03-18-2010, 10:53 AM
RB is the first position i would take a dumbass at

Yup. Defensive line would be second.

I think John Henderson scored like a 9 or something hahah.

RealityCheck
03-18-2010, 12:52 PM
How can those guys do that?

I'm pretty sure I could score a 25 or so with my eyes closed and hands tied on my back.

Halsey
03-18-2010, 12:54 PM
When I think iof the best RBs, they seem like pretty smart guys to me. I'm not saying Spiller is an idiot. For all we know he was half-heartedly taking that exam. I just think of guys like LT, Barry Sanders, Adrian Peterson, etc and they seem to have good heads on their shoulders. They may not be great speakers or academics, but they are smart in their own ways.

ALP1987
03-18-2010, 01:01 PM
When I think iof the best RBs, they seem like pretty smart guys to me. I'm not saying Spiller is an idiot. For all we know he was half-heartedly taking that exam. I just think of guys like LT, Barry Sanders, Adrian Peterson, etc and they seem to have good heads on their shoulders. They may not be great speakers or academics, but they are smart in their own ways.

Yeah it doesn't really matter too much about a Wonderlic Score for a RB. Yeah you would like for them to all score 50 but in reality it's not as big of a deal as some make it out to be. Now lets say the player is a QB....Well then its a different matter. QB's are suppose to be the driving force behind an offense and they make the decisions from their position so for a QB the Wonderlic does hold some value when being evaluated but not so much for RBs.

ThePudge
03-18-2010, 01:11 PM
Spiller could have scored in the negatives (drawn a smiley face for every question) and it wouldn't affect how teams thought of him. Running Backs, Wide Receivers, and Defensive Lineman have the meaningless Wonderlics.

Who cares if he's illiterate, who cares if an Arghani donkey can answer more questions correctly. he's damn good football player and this score takes nothing away from what he does on the field.

diesel
03-18-2010, 01:15 PM
Emmitt Smith is one of the dumbest human beings alive and he did alright. He couldn't form an intelligible sentence to save his life. There is plenty of proof on youtube.

ALP1987
03-18-2010, 01:16 PM
Spiller could have scored in the negatives (drawn a smiley face for every question) and it wouldn't affect how teams thought of him. Running Backs, Wide Receivers, and Defensive Lineman have the meaningless Wonderlics.

Who cares if he's illiterate, who cares if an Arghani donkey can answer more questions correctly. he's damn good football player and this score takes nothing away from what he does on the field.


Well the only thing it would speak to is his ability to learn a system. With RBs a low Wonderlic is not necessarily a stock killer but it would raise some questions about his ability to take in a complex system. Like i said before it holds more weight for a QB than a RB but you still need to know that the player you are drafting has the mental ability to understand the system you have in place.

brasho
03-18-2010, 07:22 PM
CBs and RBs can be dummies. Having a smart RB like Thomas Jones, Tiki, Walter Payton, Roger Craig, etc is great but guys like OJ, Dickerson, Emmitt, and others have done alright.

Addict
03-18-2010, 07:32 PM
I really don't understand how you can do so poorly on a wonderlic. Arent the questions things like

James likes all fruit. Apples are fruit.

A: James Likes Apples
B: James Doesn't Like Apples
C: Can't Tell

? Right? How do you score that bad?

JFLO
03-18-2010, 07:35 PM
Emmitt Smith is one of the dumbest human beings alive and he did alright. He couldn't form an intelligible sentence to save his life. There is plenty of proof on youtube.

I wonder what he scored?

My guess is around 4

Addict
03-18-2010, 07:35 PM
Emmitt Smith is one of the dumbest human beings alive and he did alright. He couldn't form an intelligible sentence to save his life. There is plenty of proof on youtube.

Rod Smith says hi.

iowatreat54
03-18-2010, 08:08 PM
I really don't understand how you can do so poorly on a wonderlic. Arent the questions things like

James likes all fruit. Apples are fruit.

A: James Likes Apples
B: James Doesn't Like Apples
C: Can't Tell

? Right? How do you score that bad?

From what I've seen/heard, the beginning is like this.

But supposedly it gets harder as you go, and the questions we see are only like the first half or 60%. So they may or may not get harder after that.

But still, of the first half you should at least get 15-20 right. Throw in another 5-10 just from guessing or using basic knowledge and process of elimination on the final 25, and you have 20-25 probably with a grade school education.

FUNBUNCHER
03-18-2010, 08:11 PM
RB might be the most instinctive position in football and can't be quantified by some test.
Smart RB = guy who can remember the snap count and knows the difference between a pass play and a run play.

Addict
03-18-2010, 08:15 PM
RB might be the most instinctive position in football and can't be quantified by some test.
Smart RB = guy who can remember the snap count and knows the difference between a pass play and a run play.

I realize that I'm just amazed how anyone can do that poorly on a test like that. I mean by for all intends and purposes a grown person who has finished high school and attends a college should at the very least be able to score 20-25 on the wonderlic? Right?

And this is in general, how hte hell do they screw this up so bad?

Mr. Goosemahn
03-18-2010, 08:20 PM
I realize that I'm just amazed how anyone can do that poorly on a test like that. I mean by for all intends and purposes a grown person who has finished high school and attends a college should at the very least be able to score 20-25 on the wonderlic? Right?

And this is in general, how hte hell do they screw this up so bad?

He's not very smart, add in the fact that he probably didn't learn half of what his major "taught" him (he studied Sociology, actually, it's on his wiki page), and he probably didn't finish the test either, and you've got yourself a 10.

Here's a site with three sets of practice questions from the Wonderlic.

http://www.testprepreview.com/wonderlic_practice.htm

STsACE
03-18-2010, 08:24 PM
Does anyone know of a site that has a previous wonderlic or something very similar so regular people can put their results up against the pros?


Seems better to have a dumb RB. Get one that's too smart and he'll pull some Einstein garbage in the huddle telling the QB why the play won't work and what they should run instead, big confusion. Almost would seem similar to huddles from "The Replacements"

In all seriousness though, does it really matter about the score? Or the way they behave during the testing and how quick they feel they need to get it done? If someone tried to finish it in 2-3 minutes, competition thing, there's gonna be stuff that isn't right.

underscore
03-18-2010, 08:39 PM
I'd say it'd be pretty easy to do poorly, no matter your intelligence.

Some guys rush through it so they finish it, don't read the questions fully and make mistakes.

Some guys go too slow, and don't finish the test.

Some guys don't care enough to try, knowing it won't affect their stock.

And sure, some guys just aren't smart.

EvilNixon
03-18-2010, 08:42 PM
So CJ Spiller is pretty much at a 4rd grade reading level.

lmao!!(10 char)

Halsey
03-18-2010, 08:44 PM
Emmitt Smith may not be the most articulate guy, but you can't be that successful and be a total idiot. The guy was smart enough to do what it takes to have a long career in the NFL and then find continued success afterwards. He's also managed to avoid any type of negative press off the field.

SeanTaylorRIP
03-18-2010, 08:45 PM
I wonder what Chris Johnson and Lendale got on the wonderlic.

RyanBraun8
03-18-2010, 08:52 PM
How can those guys do that?

I'm pretty sure I could score a 25 or so with my eyes closed and hands tied on my back.

Yeah.....okay, that is pretty easy to say when you have never seen or taken the test before. You must answer around 2 1/2 questions per minute and have no time to think about the question. Not every question is as simple as the apple example. They are supposed to get harder and more confusing as the test goes on.

Not to mention that 25 is a pretty good score and that alone makes you smarter than prob 3/4 of the players entering the draft. Hard to believe that your damn near smarter than a Stanford grad with your eyes closed and hands tied behind your back......

I don't care if Spiller got a zero and couldn't even get the 1 point for spelling his name right because that guy flat out play football. He showed the ability in college to run routes and understand where to go on run plays so that shouldn't be a problem. Football knowledge is a lot different than riddle solving.

TitanHope
03-18-2010, 08:52 PM
Seriously.

It may sound mean, but it could very well be true. Dude scored a ******* 10. A 10. I could close my eyes and jab a pencil at the piece of paper and probably score a 10.

Spiller might be legit mentally challenged. Look at Vince Young.

I wonder what Chris Johnson and Lendale got on the wonderlic.

Oh come on guys! :mad:

STsACE
03-18-2010, 08:59 PM
Oh come on guys! :mad:

Well, you know, those 3 (Johnson, Young, White) have all underperformed since being in the league. What was your FO thinking when they drafted those 3? Set your team back years..........tisk....tisk.......

SeanTaylorRIP
03-18-2010, 09:00 PM
So I just researched and Chris Johnson got a 10 on his wonderlic as well. The comparisons will never stop!!!

Addict
03-18-2010, 09:01 PM
Oh come on guys! :mad:

I lolled... will rep you later for that one, promise! If I don't call me out on PM this deserved rep

BMS
03-18-2010, 09:02 PM
Frank Gore scored a 6 on the Wonderlic (although he's dyslexic), if he were on the Pats or the Colts he'd be considered a superstar. There's no way the Wonderlic will effect Spiller's stock.

For the people who are wondering how they would score, I read a little while back that the average score is a 20 (among all people, not just NFL players). So it's certainly harder than most people think, getting even half of the answers correct means you are fairly smart. Above 30 is supposed to be way above average, and above 40 is a genius. There's no way anyone could have their eyes closed and score near a 25.

TitanHope
03-18-2010, 09:09 PM
Well, you know, those 3 (Johnson, Young, White) have all underperformed since being in the league. What was your FO thinking when they drafted those 3? Set your team back years..........tisk....tisk.......

True, true. I think Mike Reinfeldt is a drinker, and Jeff Fisher does cocaine. You think the stache is just a fashion statement, but it's to brush the residue away so there's no evidence. It's quite ingenius.

It's funny how all three guys are different though. LenDale's career = underperformed, VY's career = schizophrenic, and CJ's career = JIZZ!!!

CJ probably got the lowest score though (if STRIP's research is correcto). VY got a "6" then an official 16, so split the difference making it 11. LenDale probably refused to take the Wonderlic because he didn't want his cunning wit swaggerjacked by no brain test.


Maybe the Titans should just draft Myron Rolle and some guy out of Harvard in the 7th RD to help balance out the dumbassocity?

STsACE
03-18-2010, 09:14 PM
True, true. I think Mike Reinfeldt is a drinker, and Jeff Fisher does cocaine. You think the stache is just a fashion statement, but it's to brush the residue away so there's no evidence. It's quite ingenius.

It's funny how all three guys are different though. LenDale's career = underperformed, VY's career = schizophrenic, and CJ's career = JIZZ!!!

CJ probably got the lowest score though (if STRIP's research is correcto). VY got a "6" then an official 16, so split the difference making it 11. LenDale probably refused to take the Wonderlic because he didn't want his cunning wit swaggerjacked by no brain test.


Maybe the Titans should just draft Myron Rolle and some guy out of Harvard in the 7th RD to help balance out the dumbassocity?

Terrible to hear....really







Here's to hoping that the Browns new FO can find some dumb studs as well. Just don't tell anyone I said that.

JoeJoeBrown
03-19-2010, 12:59 AM
I realize that I'm just amazed how anyone can do that poorly on a test like that. I mean by for all intends and purposes a grown person who has finished high school and attends a college should at the very least be able to score 20-25 on the wonderlic? Right?

And this is in general, how hte hell do they screw this up so bad?

This is mildly ironic.

mellojello
03-19-2010, 01:07 AM
The great athletes of any sport tend to be very smart guys. There are an endless number of athletes just as gifted as Michael Jordan or Tiger Woods, yet their intelligence on how they approach problems separate them from other competitors. With that being said, I don't think you can measure athletic intelligence on a scantron test. Not sure why the player union allows for guys to be subjected to this idiotic test.

Personally, I think RB's are drones, you can literally plug anyone in there that has the physical tools. Spiller seems like a fine young man with incredible athletic gifts. It is unfortunate that he will be labeled as "dumb" because of a scantron test.

These type of exams (wonderlic/SAT/LSAT, IQ tests etc.) are more critical if you're evaluating a GM or head coach, not the RB position. I would not want a head coach or GM that scored a 10 on the wonderlic. If they want to test arbitrary skills, they should just have the players play Madden or do a paintball war. Personally, I think it's probably more relevant than the wonderlic.

nobodyinparticular
03-19-2010, 01:16 AM
From what I've seen/heard, the beginning is like this.

But supposedly it gets harder as you go, and the questions we see are only like the first half or 60%. So they may or may not get harder after that.

But still, of the first half you should at least get 15-20 right. Throw in another 5-10 just from guessing or using basic knowledge and process of elimination on the final 25, and you have 20-25 probably with a grade school education.

This.

I took the Wonderlic at a job interview. Yes, the. How do I know? Because it said "Wonderlic" on the top. I got a 38. With a migraine. And 75% of my vision was obscured from that migraine.

I'm telling you--the first 15 are gimmes. Straight up. The next 10 should be easily answered by any intelligent 8th grader (but let's assume 2 nervous mistakes). Accounting for those two mistakes, that is still 23. Beyond that you move into logic questions that become more like sophomore-ish in nature.

There is no reason any in advanced education (like college) should get below a 25. Getting 10 or below is borderline mentally handicapped.

http://draftcountdown.com/forum/showthread.php?t=35663

Donno
03-19-2010, 01:47 PM
RB is the first position i would take a dumbass at

So true, just tell him to run that way and he should understand.

LonghornsLegend
03-19-2010, 06:30 PM
I really don't understand how you can do so poorly on a wonderlic. Arent the questions things like

James likes all fruit. Apples are fruit.

A: James Likes Apples
B: James Doesn't Like Apples
C: Can't Tell

? Right? How do you score that bad?



Their really not all that easy at all.


Here is one sample:


A physical education class has three times as many girls as boys. During a class basketball game, the girls average 18 points each, and the class as a whole averages 17 points per person. How many points does each boy score on average?



Here is another:

Arnold is about to go on a 500-mile car trip. His mechanic recommends that he buy a special highway engine oil that will save him 50 cents in gas for every 25 miles of the trip. This new oil, however, will cost $20. Is it worthwhile for Arnold to buy the oil if he has a coupon for $4 dollars off the price?



Now while those aren't the hardest questions in the world, but the test certainly isn't full of the examples that you gave. I could care less what a RB scored, VY's was terrible and he's a QB and he's doing just fine.



There's no way anyone could have their eyes closed and score near a 25.

Nobody pays any attention to what he says anyway.

mellojello
03-19-2010, 07:04 PM
This.

I took the Wonderlic at a job interview. Yes, the. How do I know? Because it said "Wonderlic" on the top. I got a 38. With a migraine. And 75% of my vision was obscured from that migraine.

I'm telling you--the first 15 are gimmes. Straight up. The next 10 should be easily answered by any intelligent 8th grader (but let's assume 2 nervous mistakes). Accounting for those two mistakes, that is still 23. Beyond that you move into logic questions that become more like sophomore-ish in nature.

There is no reason any in advanced education (like college) should get below a 25. Getting 10 or below is borderline mentally handicapped.

http://draftcountdown.com/forum/showthread.php?t=35663Interesting...what did you score on your SAT, if you don't mind me asking?

K Train
03-19-2010, 07:13 PM
funny that chris johnson got a 10 too...i mean it has to mean something, have you ever heard the dude talk or see some of his tweets? he sounds like a ruh-tard.

but hey, like i said RB is the first position you take a dumbass at

FUNBUNCHER
03-19-2010, 07:17 PM
That physical education Wonderlic question took me about 5 minutes to nail down on another thread, and I still wasn't certain I had the correct answer.

The killer on the Wonderlic is the time limit, not the actual difficulty of the questions.

Psychologist Howard Gardner identified seven types of 'intelligence'; linguistic, logic-mathematical, bodily-kinesthetic(athletic), spatial, musical, interpersonal, and intra-personal.

Firstly, the wonderlic test is not an intelligence quotient test, it's a test that measures how FAST you can answer questions, not if you in fact know the answer.
If the wonderlic test was 45 minutes instead of 12 minutes to answer 50 questions, the average score I'm certain would be much higher.

Also, the wonderlic only generally measures logic-mathematical aptitude, which has very little to do with bodily-kinesthetic(athletic) intelligence - the true measure of athletic IQ.

If I'm a GM, I want the guy who picks up new defensive schemes and offensive packages the fastest in practice the week prior to a game, not the guy who can finish the NY Times crossword puzzle in twenty-five minutes.

There's a reason why so many skill players completely blow off the Wonderlic, because it rarely translates to the football field.

JLaw45
03-19-2010, 08:02 PM
This.

I took the Wonderlic at a job interview. Yes, the. How do I know? Because it said "Wonderlic" on the top. I got a 38. With a migraine. And 75% of my vision was obscured from that migraine.

I'm telling you--the first 15 are gimmes. Straight up. The next 10 should be easily answered by any intelligent 8th grader (but let's assume 2 nervous mistakes). Accounting for those two mistakes, that is still 23. Beyond that you move into logic questions that become more like sophomore-ish in nature.

There is no reason any in advanced education (like college) should get below a 25. Getting 10 or below is borderline mentally handicapped.

http://draftcountdown.com/forum/showthread.php?t=35663

From what I hear many of these guys have an advanced education in name only. Doesn't seem like many of the guys at large D-1 programs even go to class, really.
They don't take notes, don't really do homework, don't really study much...

Makes you wonder what its like for many of these guys(read:99% of them) who don't go pro or don't last long enough in the league(maybe a year on a practice squad or something) to make a substantial sum of money that'll keep them set for life.

Then there's the fact that even for the guys who DO go pro and last a little while, there isn't a guarantee of success. 78% of them end up broke 2-3 years after they finish playing(probably due in some part to their less than stimulating academic experience in college). No money, no real education...what do you do?

HotRod35
03-20-2010, 12:14 PM
There was an interesting article I read before the draft regarding the Wonderlic test in general and its application for football specifically. I will try to find it and post a link to the article. As I recall it was written by a guy how had an interest in football, but he was not a “football draft junkie,” so to speak.

I just found the article and it is written by Ben Fry, PHD. According to his blog: “Ben Fry received his doctoral degree from the Aesthetics + Computation Group at the MIT Media Laboratory”

Here is the link: http://benfry.com/writing/archives/147

Accordingly, he was addressed the issue from more of an analytical and scientific approach.

Here are some things I found interesting:

1. 1. One of the more interesting things is that the article had a diagram, which showed a positive correlation between test scores and proximity to the ball. QBs tended to score higher than average as most have surmised, but not the highest on average. That distinction belonged to the Offensive Tackles. Here is the diagram:




2. As can be seen the RBs along with the wide-outs scored the lowest.

3. I was a bit surprised to see that the correlation held up on both sides of the ball. I would have thought that the defensive linemen would score low, and to be sure they scored well below the offensive linemen. However, I was mildly surprised to see they scored the highest of the defenders, who on average scored well below the offensive players.

4. I don’t know exactly, but there is a huge difference between scoring a 16, the average for running backs, and 24 through 26 the range in averages for QBs, Centers, and tackles. It is huge; so much so in fact that it is hard to believe they all went to college; with some going to the same schools.

5. According to the guy who developed the Wonderlic test it is an IQ test. (some on here are making a distinction)

6. It is a timed test and that is critical. I am sure there are plenty of guys, including NFL prospects and the guys on here, who could score much higher if there were even and extra 5 minutes or no time limit at all. So remember that when you are looking at example questions. I did 20 example questions and got 19 correct, but while I tried to do them quickly, I was no under a strict time limit. That is not to say that everyone is going to score the same if there were not time limit. Some guys are going to score low, even if they had all day to take the test. In fact, some would score low if it were a take home test.

I think it is important to recognize there are many reasons that the test results would be helpful which have limited direct, if any, relationship to decision making, on the field of play. Players make all kinds of decisions off the field which can impact their availability to play and if they are in the right frame of mind when they are on the field.

FUNBUNCHER
03-20-2010, 12:30 PM
The wonderlic may be 'marketed' as an IQ test, but no reputable psychologist would classify it as such.

Like many have stated, it's one of many tools used to evaluate prospects, but by no means is it a definitive measure of anything remotely related to football.

If you're a QB, you better take the test seriously. If you play defense, no one really cares.

HotRod35
03-20-2010, 02:56 PM
The wonderlic may be 'marketed' as an IQ test, but no reputable psychologist would classify it as such.

Like many have stated, it's one of many tools used to evaluate prospects, but by no means is it a definitive measure of anything remotely related to football.

If you're a QB, you better take the test seriously. If you play defense, no one really cares.

With all due respect, you are wrong.

First of all, it is an IQ test. In that, it is designed to test Intelligence Quotient. Is it the best test available for an exhaustive study of one's IQ? No, and it is not designed to be the best. It is designed to give a relatively quick and cost effective assessment. Cost effective, in terms of time and money.

I quote: "The Wonderlic Personnel Test is a twelve-minute, fifty-question test used to assess the aptitude of prospective employees for learning and problem-solving in a wide range of occupations.[1] The score is calculated as the number of correct answers given in the allotted time. A score of 20 is intended to indicate average intelligence (corresponding to an intelligence quotient of 100"

Secondly, regarding your statement: "but by no means is it a definitive measure of anything remotely related to football."

Leaving aside the question of "definitive", that is just a ill-thought-out statement. Are you saying, that ones intelligence never comes into play regarding a football player's career? Seriously, you need to give that some thought. Dare I add use some IQ.

IQ comes into play everyday in everyone's life. Granted, more so in some lives, than in others, but it comes into play, in everyone's life, including football players. You are correct in stating "it's one of many tools used to evaluate prospects," but you are wrong when you state: "If you play defense, no one really cares."

Again, does it trump all? No, but to say that no one really cars is, frankly, not a well thought out statement. If no one cares, why not save the time, expense and possible embarrassment and give it only to QBs?

I grant you, it has less significance for some positions, but "no one really cares" is a bit much.

As I stated above, there are all kinds of things players do off the field, which impact their play on the field, or if they can even get to the field for that matter. Many of these things are the outcomes of choices made, which are influenced by IQ.

Is it "definitive"? In a word: No; but neither is the most exhaustive IQ test ever designed. As Charles Murray, one of the authors of The Bell Curve said, (paraphrasing) "Give me the IQ of one 8th grade girl and I can't tell you a whole lot about her future; but if you give me the IQ's of a class room of 8th grade girls I can predict a great deal about their futures, on average."

stephenson86
03-20-2010, 02:58 PM
so did JRussell get a 0? no way would anyone who scored above that be as thick as he is

PoopSandwich
03-20-2010, 03:22 PM
So CJ Spiller is pretty much at a 4rd grade reading level.

Maybe a 5th grade reading level...

http://www.remotecentral.com/dvd/hook-3.jpg

HotRod35
03-20-2010, 03:26 PM
I see that my chart above showing the average test scores by position did not paste. Here are the average Wonderlic test scores by position, that was the basis for the schematic which did not come through:

* Offensive tackle – 26
* Center – 25
* Quarterback – 24
* Guard – 23
* Tight end – 22
* Safety – 19
* Linebacker – 19
* Cornerback – 18
* Wide receiver – 17
* Fullback – 17
* Halfback – 16

jsagan77
03-20-2010, 03:26 PM
So I just researched and Chris Johnson got a 10 on his wonderlic as well. The comparisons will never stop!!!

Maybe Spiller is so smart that he's trying to tell the league something? Runs a 40 in the 4.2's and scores a 10 just like Johnson.... hmmm

stephenson86
03-20-2010, 03:36 PM
you know chris johnson is thick as anything, he can hardly speak understanding him is an art

FUNBUNCHER
03-20-2010, 05:31 PM
Slow your roll, Hot Rod.

The decision makers in the NFL are all about statistics and codification when attempting to quantify some predictive measures in determining which college players will be successful in the league.
Understandably, with the huge monetary investment a franchise makes in its roster, ideally it would be great to have some magical crystal ball before the draft to divine which players are the 'truth' and separate them from the pretenders.

Alas, no such crystal ball exists, least of all the Wonderlic.
Because the wonderlic has little predictive value of a player's success or failure in the pros, IMO its value is marginal for evaluating players.

Again, the wonderlic can provide a general sense of how intelligent a player is in a very limited abstract, but that shouldn't overestimate its utility.

What I don't understand is why the NFL doesn't commission a test that measures how much a player knows about playing his specific position, now that would make a lot more sense, the test equivalent of getting a QB in front of a blackboard with a piece of chalk diagramming plays and breaking down coverages.

Most NFL players have been playing the game since 8 years old; by the age of 22, 23, they already know the language of the sport, the cognitive and quantitative requirements to play the game, none of which is measured by the wonderlic.
My other problem with the wonderlic test is that it isn't football specific, like the MCAT and LSAT are for medical and law school.

Unless you're a middle linebacker, safety or a QB, the guy who calls the signals and adjustments for your unit, I doubt NFL personnel men weight the wonderlic much at all.

As for what I said earlier, if you play defense, I doubt anyone really cares what you score. Skins DE Dexter Manley couldn't read for much of his career; Lawrence Taylor early in his career blew off his playbook.

There is something called 'athletic' intelligence, which the wonderlic can't measure, but coaches are fully aware which players have it and which ones don't.
The ability of a DE to know how and when to setup an OT with a countermove, a QB who can look off a DB, or pump fake to get a defender to bite, a WR who knows how to find gaps in coverage and settle himself to receive the pass, a LB who knows when to stand up a guard in the hole and when to run past him, there are endless examples of things 'smart' football players intuitively know how to do in a game.

The NFL could drop the wonderlic altogether next year and it wouldn't make one bit of difference.

Again, every coach will tell you the goal they hope to reach with all players is that at some point they are no longer 'thinking', instead they are acting and reacting to the action on the field.

The wonderlic IMO is about as relevant a predictor of football success as is counting how many reps a WR can do in the bench press.

Paranoidmoonduck
03-20-2010, 05:35 PM
so did JRussell get a 0? no way would anyone who scored above that be as thick as he is

If I recall, he got a 24 or something. I think Russell's problem is much more to do with laziness than stupidity.

phlysac
03-22-2010, 10:14 PM
A timed test will always yield terrible results for people with any ready deficiencies. Many in this thread don't consider that not everyone has the same reading comprehension. If a test-taker struggles with reading, it doesn't even matter the difficulty of the question itself.

I should also stress that learning disabilities and reading difficulties are NOT always indicative of that persons intelligence. They are seperate things.

JoeJoeBrown
03-23-2010, 01:33 AM
A timed test will always yield terrible results for people with any ready deficiencies. Many in this thread don't consider that not everyone has the same reading comprehension. If a test-taker struggles with reading, it doesn't even matter the difficulty of the question itself.

I should also stress that learning disabilities and reading difficulties are NOT always indicative of that persons intelligence. They are seperate things.

Let's hope for your sake that includes spelling and grammar. :)

I kid, I kid. You make a good point, as I'm sure there are exceptions to the rule (Ted Ginn Jr jumps out, as he has a learning disability).

However, it's quite likely that the majority of the guys with low scores are simply stupid AND are so entitled that they habitually discount any intellectual endeavor.

A dumb person that tries will likely score in the teens. A dumb person that is lazy or is not serious is going to just randomly answer questions and be done with the test and will score in the low teens or single digits.

Never underestimate human stupidity.

phlysac
03-23-2010, 09:54 PM
Let's hope for your sake that includes spelling and grammar. :)

I kid, I kid. You make a good point, as I'm sure there are exceptions to the rule (Ted Ginn Jr jumps out, as he has a learning disability).

However, it's quite likely that the majority of the guys with low scores are simply stupid AND are so entitled that they habitually discount any intellectual endeavor.

A dumb person that tries will likely score in the teens. A dumb person that is lazy or is not serious is going to just randomly answer questions and be done with the test and will score in the low teens or single digits.

Never underestimate human stupidity.

I agree that there are some unintelligent athlete's taking the Wonderlic for NFL teams. Unfortunately, if "intelligence" is the reason for low scores as a college student, a vast majority of the blame should fall on that athlete's previous educators, or lack-there-of.

Highlighting your "a dumb person that tries will likely score in the teens"...

This is where we disagree. I think if they are "dumb", they won't try. It, in my opinion, is more likely that a person who tries but still achieves low scores is not "dumb" but has a learning or reading disability. These forms of disabilities, not addressed at this point in their lifetimes, is indicative of poor educational (special needs) practices.

WCH
03-24-2010, 01:25 AM
4. It is huge; so much so in fact that it is hard to believe they all went to college; with some going to the same schools.

I don't think that it's very hard to believe at all when you consider how little these guys actually have to make a good-faith attempt at getting an education. If we're accepting that the scores indicate they're illiterate; most likely dyslexic -- then here's how you keep these guys playing for sometimes elite universities:

1. Get them a diagnosis for some learning disability

2. Claim benefits under the Americans with Disabilities Act.

3. Remind the University of how much money is generated by guys like Spiller and Johnson.

That's the basic blueprint. It would help to stick them in one of the majors at the bottom of the second list found here: http://carrefoursagesse.wordpress.com/2009/03/26/the-audacious-epigone-on-iq-estimates-of-intended-college-major-via-sat-scores/

Ratemyprofessors.com could be a valuable resource if you want to find "cool" Professors who will go the extra mile to make sure that students pass their classes.

derza222
03-24-2010, 11:22 AM
I understand that if you're relatively articulate it doesn't mean you'll do great on the Wonderlic, but I suggest going back and reading Spiller's interview with Scott.

http://www.draftcountdown.com/interviews/CJ-Spiller/CJ-Spiller.php

He seems to speak pretty well in the interview and overall it just comes off like he's a pretty sharp guy. I was honestly a little surprised that he did so poorly on the Wonderlic because I remembered he interviewed so well.

descendency
03-24-2010, 12:11 PM
I really don't understand how you can do so poorly on a wonderlic. Arent the questions things like

James likes all fruit. Apples are fruit.

A: James Likes Apples
B: James Doesn't Like Apples
C: Can't Tell

? Right? How do you score that bad?

You might get one or two questions like that at the beginning, but there are also things like:

If a team hasn't trailed for 37 quarters, how many games have they won, minimum?

A: 7
B: 8
C: 9
D: 10

brat316
03-24-2010, 12:19 PM
You might get one or two questions like that at the beginning, but there are also things like:

If a team hasn't trailed for 37 quarters, how many games have they won, minimum?

A: 7
B: 8
C: 9
D: 10

ohhh, I know pick me, is it A

iowatreat54
03-24-2010, 12:21 PM
You might get one or two questions like that at the beginning, but there are also things like:

If a team hasn't trailed for 37 quarters, how many games have they won, minimum?

A: 7
B: 8
C: 9
D: 10

And this is harder than the apple question....how?

descendency
03-24-2010, 12:26 PM
And this is harder than the apple question....how?

It requires math and some basic reasoning (like what a minimum is...).

Trust me, as someone who is a mathematics major, lots of people are incompetent at math and easily get scared by math word problems. Remember, this is a timed test (and the time per question is low.. less than 15 seconds per question).

iowatreat54
03-24-2010, 12:32 PM
It requires math and some basic reasoning (like what a minimum is...).

Trust me, as someone who is a mathematics major, lots of people are incompetent at math and easily get scared by math word problems. Remember, this is a timed test (and the time per question is low.. less than 15 seconds per question).

Oh, I understand. But that's the point. If you can't figure that out, you're pretty dumb.

I mean really, 37/4 = 9.25. So the minimum games they'd win is 9. Could win a maximum of 10 games, but they could win no less than 9. Seriously, 37/4. That's like 2nd grade math.

zachsaints52
03-24-2010, 12:49 PM
I got a 50 on it and I was fapping to some nudes of njx

derza222
03-24-2010, 02:32 PM
You might get one or two questions like that at the beginning, but there are also things like:

If a team hasn't trailed for 37 quarters, how many games have they won, minimum?

A: 7
B: 8
C: 9
D: 10

I hate to be this guy, but isn't the answer technically 0? I mean not realistic of course, but if they have a tremendous defense and a really inept offense...

You could even screw around with it and say 8. Tied going into the 4th quarter of one game, that one ends in a tie through overtime (2 quarters), they win 8 more games (32 quarters so 34 total), and then hold the lead/tie for 3 quarters of another game.

umphrey
03-24-2010, 05:21 PM
It seems like the questions are really heavy on the math and most of these athletes couldn't pass the lowest level math class at their university but they have other things going for them

Bengalsrocket
03-24-2010, 05:37 PM
It seems like the questions are really heavy on the math and most of these athletes couldn't pass the lowest level math class at their university but they have other things going for them

I think it has a lot less to do with math and a lot more to do with breaking them down. I believe they often word the questions in a weird manner to purposely make it hard to analyze and break down. Like someone said, 37/4 isn't complicated math, I think the point is just to see how fast you analyze the questions.

FUNBUNCHER
03-24-2010, 08:44 PM
I think it has a lot less to do with math and a lot more to do with breaking them down. I believe they often word the questions in a weird manner to purposely make it hard to analyze and break down. Like someone said, 37/4 isn't complicated math, I think the point is just to see how fast you analyze the questions.

Absolutely true. Most of the questions are made overly difficult because they're worded so poorly on the wonderlic.