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RealityCheck
03-22-2010, 06:41 PM
http://www.nfl.com/draft/story?id=09000d5d81714d0c&template=with-video-with-comments&confirm=true

Kirwan has Bryant at #29 to the Jets.

Stop underrating him, please, thank you.

thenewfeature06
03-22-2010, 06:42 PM
Yeah I am pretty sure in my first mock I had him falling to Baltimore.. and then after a solid read over I had to rearrange.

JFLO
03-22-2010, 06:43 PM
There should be a thread for just stupid mocks, because they flourish around this time of year.

Splat
03-22-2010, 06:44 PM
There should be a thread for just stupid mocks, because they flourish around this time of year.

http://draftcountdown.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=43

BaLLiN
03-22-2010, 06:47 PM
http://draftcountdown.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=43
http://images.paraorkut.com/img/funnypics/images/l/lol_cat-12926.jpg

....wait.... my mocks are in there!!!!

T-RICH49
03-22-2010, 06:47 PM
please I am begging people to stop with this Bulaga to KC garbage

619
03-22-2010, 06:48 PM
please I am begging people to stop with this Bulaga to KC garbage

Just wait until it happens. Why does this happen every year with KC fans??

Thumper
03-22-2010, 06:51 PM
Lol, Bryant might not go top 20. And Bulaga to the Chiefs makes perfect sense. If you need to see my reasoning behind not thinking Bryant might not go top 20, visit the other Dez Bryant thread we have, I don't want to write it again.

diesel
03-22-2010, 06:52 PM
With the exception of maybe the top 4-5 picks there is never an accurate mock. As long as he is right about #27 I don't really care.

ThePudge
03-22-2010, 06:52 PM
please I am begging people to stop with this Bulaga to KC garbage

Bulaga makes more sense than taking Eric Berry (a Safety not named Sean Taylor) at 5th Overall. The team needs big time help on the OL, and Bulaga fits the nasty, blue-collar profile that Scott Pioli is known for being attracted to. At this time last year you'd say "please I am begging people to stop with this Tyson Jackson to KC garbage"... Not all the fans have to like their draft choices and I find that many fans assume it's them making the pick, not the GM. There are such things as premium positions, and Left Tackle/Quarterback/DL are always going to be at the top of that list. You don't take a Safety 5th Overall, most NFL GMs would agree to that.

ThePudge
03-22-2010, 06:55 PM
Lol, Bryant will not go top 20. And Bulaga to the Chiefs makes perfect sense. If you need to see my reasoning behind not thinking Bryant will go top 20, visit the other Dez Bryant thread we have, I don't want to write it again.

Copy-Paste = no writing! He'll go Top 14, easily. He's a top talent in this draft and has become criminally underrated, like some have said. Michael Crabtree had to walk around with an entourage, acting like he owned the place on team visits just to fall out of the Top 6. Dez Bryant will have to clear things up with teams, but it only takes one GM and the guy is a massive talent.

baronzeus
03-22-2010, 06:55 PM
Lol, Bryant will not go top 20. And Bulaga to the Chiefs makes perfect sense. If you need to see my reasoning behind not thinking Bryant will go top 20, visit the other Dez Bryant thread we have, I don't want to write it again.

Can I bet you money on this?

Addict
03-22-2010, 06:57 PM
I've said it before and I'll say it again: STOP TAKING PAT KIRWAN SERIOUSLY

honestly, how many crazy mocks do you people need?

Thumper
03-22-2010, 06:57 PM
Can I bet you money on this?

Unfortunately, you cannot but if I thought gambling over the internet was acceptable I would totally be okay with taking your money. :)

Splat
03-22-2010, 06:58 PM
Bulaga makes more sense than taking Eric Berry (a Safety not named Sean Taylor) at 5th Overall. The team needs big time help on the OL, and Bulaga fits the nasty, blue-collar profile that Scott Pioli is known for being attracted to. At this time last year you'd say "please I am begging people to stop with this Tyson Jackson to KC garbage"... Not all the fans have to like their draft choices and I find that many fans assume it's them making the pick, not the GM. There are such things as premium positions, and Left Tackle/Quarterback/DL are always going to be at the top of that list. You don't take a Safety 5th Overall, most NFL GMs would agree to that.

Taking an OT won't bother me but passing on Okung (if there) for Bulage would not make me happy.

BaLLiN
03-22-2010, 07:02 PM
Unfortunately, you cannot but if I thought gambling over the internet was acceptable I would totally be okay with taking your money. :)

Have a hard time believing that Seattle would pass on Dez with the trade talks they had with the Broncos for Marshall

Addict
03-22-2010, 07:03 PM
Have a hard time believing that Seattle would pass on Dez with the trade talks they had with the Broncos for Marshall

stop
devoting
time
and
energy
on
mock
draft
by
Pat
Kirwan
he
is
an
idiot.

ThePudge
03-22-2010, 07:03 PM
Taking an OT won't bother me but passing on Okung (if there) for Bulage would not make me happy.

I'm fine with that, I don't think anything is there to suggest the Chiefs would/should pass on Okung for Bulaga. But Bulaga would be a vast improvement for KC and though a bit slow-footed, he has solid technique, uses his hands well, & may be this draft's best drive blocker. If ever there was a lineman that plays to the whistle, it's this guy.

BaLLiN
03-22-2010, 07:06 PM
stop
devoting
time
and
energy
on
mock
draft
by
Pat
Kirwan
he
is
an
idiot.

oh i dont put any weight in what they say whatsoever except Mike Mayock who is usually pretty good IMO. That was just a response to Thumper's "Dez wont go in the top 20"

Splat
03-22-2010, 07:10 PM
I know Mock Drafts mean nothing but it is hard to not get up set when I keep seeing Mock after Mock having the Chiefs passing on Okung for Bulage.

Even on Scott's mock he has Bulage going to the Chiefs at #5 and Okung to Seattle at #6.

He is says "Russel Okung has clearly emerged as the top OT" and I'm like if that is the case then why the hell did the Chiefs just pass on him?

Thumper
03-22-2010, 07:10 PM
Copy-Paste = no writing! He'll go Top 14, easily. He's a top talent in this draft and has become criminally underrated, like some have said. Michael Crabtree had to walk around with an entourage, acting like he owned the place on team visits just to fall out of the Top 6. Dez Bryant will have to clear things up with teams, but it only takes one GM and the guy is a massive talent.

Fine, I'll post it all in a nice organized quote filled post, its a lot of copying and pasting.

Dez is so overrated on here, I mean it isn't even nearly a lock he goes top 10. First off, I'd like to say that Dez Bryant is the best receiver in this draft and he should go top 20 IMO. I'll just start with the basics, how fast is he, we all know he has the height at 6'2" but he weighed in at around 225 pounds which was about 10-15 pounds heavier than expected, he seemed to carry it well but how well can he run? I'm guessing 4.5 or 4.6 and that won't get him drafted top 5 and he might have a more difficult time separating from NFL corners given the talent jump and because he no longer would be playing in a spread offense predicated on getting the ball to receivers quickly. Now moving on to his scheme, the scheme that he played in at Oklahoma State does not help him move to a prostyle offense, he has the ability to gain separation because he can sink his hips but he needs to come in and adjust to a prostyle offense and learn the complete route tree, this isn't an easy transition to make, it took Crabtree some time to adjust, Maclin took some time as well but he adjusted faster than most given his intelligence and the fact that Andy incorporates the spread in some of his offense. Also Dez Bryant has a little bit of Braylon Edwards in him, he can make spectacular catches but he occasionally drops the easy ones and he double clutches passes often.

But what I question most is his maturity, his work ethic and his focus. He lied to the NCAA about his trip to Deion's instead of taking responsibility for his actions. He reportedly bombed at the combine interviews and didn't get positive reviews in that regard. Now I have seen some film of him and one game that jumps out is Oklahoma St. versus Georgia, statistically Bryant had a great game but he was being played very physically by Georgia and he lost his focus a bit, he committed two offensive pass interference penalties, he was getting in trouble after the plays for jawing, he dropped a couple balls and he looked more focused on punishing Prince Miller than he was at playing good football. And I've heard numerous reports that he is immature, doesn't have a good work ethic and that he is a diva at the WR spot.

I know we can all cite his physical gifts and they're very good but I question whether or not he has the work ethic and the drive to do the things necessary to become great at the next level. He has teams running scared and Daniel Jeremiah a former NFL scout who left the business for personal reasons but remains in contact with NFL people says that he really scared some teams off in Indianapolis. And like I said we can cite his physical ability but there have been plenty of first round receivers similar to Bryant who have busted in the past and I think that given Bryant's character concerns and his transition from a spread offense, I think there is a very good chance he will bust.

I don't think it is a negative, he has great size and I think he plays fast enough on the field to succeed. You all think he plays blazing fast, hardly he plays with good speed but he isn't anywhere to being as fast as say Andre Johnson or Calvin Johnson, 2 of the players who went top 3 as receivers recently. And I don't think he is nearly as good as Larry Fitzgerald coming out of college. FACT: Separation will not be as easy in the NFL so he will have to do a lot of the small things to get it because he lacks elite speed and quickness.

My point with Dez Bryant is that he has maturity, focus and character concerns and when you consider all the work that is required of a top young receiver and the fact that he is going to have to adjust his game a lot to make it in the NFL and I don't think he will be a good player. He has the skills, that is for sure but I'm afraid he is going to be a guy who won't utilize those skills because of his immaturity, diva attitude and poor work ethic. I'm saying that Bryant has scouts running and that he shouldn't sniff the top 10 much less top 3 as some people on here are touting him as.

Crabs had an attitude but it wasn't the same as it was for Dez, Crabs had an attitude of 'I'm the best and I'm going to prove it over and over and over again' and while that attitude gets him in hot water from time to time I will never question his will to be great. Dez Bryant is more lazy, his coaches at Oklahoma have repeatedly said that Bryant was lazy in practice and when you combine that with his diva attitude and his immaturity and I think its a recipe for disaster for whatever team drafts him.

http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/news?slug=jc-bryantrisk022810&prov=yhoo&type=lgns

Three sources with direct knowledge of Bryant from his days in college, where he missed the final 10 games last season because of lying to NCAA investigators, said Bryant’s antics were “consistently irresponsible.”

“I wouldn’t draft that kid unless I had someone to wake him up in the morning to get to meetings, someone to wake him up for practice and someone to wake him up for games,” one source said.

A second source said Bryant’s reputation was earned because he was consistently late to team activities. That included showing up late for games.

“We’re not just talking about being a little late for warmups, but like being late for the actual game,” a source said with a chuckle. “When you start to hear some of the stories of there, you go, ‘He did what?’ ”

“Dez isn’t evil, he’s not trying to hurt anybody. He’s just goofy,” another source said. “But it does make you think, ‘If he’s like this in college, what’s it going to be like when he gets paid?’ ”

Not one bit of that has to do with his suspension.

Its all relativity, when you compare Dez Bryant to other top 10 receiver in the past, he doesn't measure up IMO and thus he isn't worthy of a top 10 pick. Right now I think people are seeing that Dez is head and shoulders above the rest of this class and are thinking wow this guy is great, top 10 but he really isn't fantastic and in reality if you put him in last years class he would've probably been a worse prospect than Crabs and Maclin and he would've went right around the same area as Harvin, Nicks and Britt.

http://www.nationalfootballpost.com/Is-Dez-Bryants-draft-stock-falling-fast.html

I spoke with several NFL coaches today — as well as a high-level NFL executive — who think that drafting Bryant is a major risk. One coach even brought up the idea that Bryant is not the type of receiver who would catch the ball in between the numbers, which is the same thing as talking about a receiver who will not go across the middle of the field.

There is no denying that Bryant has raw talent, but whenever I brought up the idea of the WR going in the Top 15 of this April’s draft, it was met with resistance.

I'm just making this stuff up.

There, that is why he isn't a top 15 pick.

prock
03-22-2010, 07:15 PM
I have Bryant ranked as the 4th overall prospect. He won't fall to 29.

Splat
03-22-2010, 07:17 PM
I think Dez goes in the teens.

prock
03-22-2010, 07:19 PM
Yeah I think he goes 7th earliest and 14th latest.

JFLO
03-22-2010, 07:22 PM
I have Bryant ranked 16th overall, but also have him landing in Miami at 12, so...

GhostDeini
03-22-2010, 07:24 PM
Copy-Paste = no writing! He'll go Top 14, easily. He's a top talent in this draft and has become criminally underrated, like some have said. Michael Crabtree had to walk around with an entourage, acting like he owned the place on team visits just to fall out of the Top 6. Dez Bryant will have to clear things up with teams, but it only takes one GM and the guy is a massive talent.


Maybe even 12th.

All I know is that the Miami Dolphins simply can not go into the season with Bess, Ginn, Hartline as their WR's.

ThePudge
03-22-2010, 07:29 PM
Thumper, thanks for copying-pasting, obviously I had no idea it was multiple different posts & such. I think you're definitely underestimating what he's shown on film. He's on of the fastest receivers in this class & his system wasn't designed to get him the ball quickly (a la Michael Crabtree). He averaged 17 a catch and was one of the most prolific downfield threats in recent memory. All he needs to do to get separation is run... he had no problem getting open in college. I'm so much more sold on him as a player & person than I was Michael Crabtree. There will be teams that will eliminate his kind of character from their boards all together, but there's going to be at least one team (Cleveland, Buffalo, Jacksonville, Denver, Miami, Seattle) that is sold.

Right now his stock may be 15-25, but that's because he's left a sour taste in everyone's mouth. By the time he works out, makes visits, builds relationships with GMs I think Dez will once again be destined for the 7-14 range.

T-RICH49
03-22-2010, 07:43 PM
Taking an OT won't bother me but passing on Okung (if there) for Bulage would not make me happy.

taking an OT when we need more help on D makes no sense to me

JFLO
03-22-2010, 07:49 PM
It seems to me that you guys (Chiefs fans) are predicting what the team will do based on what you want, rather than what Scott Pioli and Co. will do in April.

prock
03-22-2010, 07:50 PM
taking an OT when we need more help on D makes no sense to me

The argument for the Chiefs pick isn't about which is the biggest need, because everyone knows your D needs not only help, but a revamping. The problem is value. Berry is BPA on defense, but his position doesn't necessarily warrant a top 5 pick. I personally think Berry should be the pick over Bulaga, as Berry is a way better prospect. I don't think they would be able to pass on Okung, though.

Morton
03-22-2010, 07:54 PM
DeSean Jackson had top 10 talent in 2008 but slid all the way into the second round because of character issues.

Randy Moss slipped far lower than he should have in 1998 because of character issues. He was projected as a top 5 talent otherwise, and obviously lived up to that billing.

Dez won't slip that far, but bottom of the first is very likely. Whether it's right or wrong, sometimes talent falls because of character concerns.

prock
03-22-2010, 07:56 PM
DeSean Jackson had top 10 talent in 2008 but slid all the way into the second round because of character issues.

Randy Moss slipped far lower than he should have in 1998 because of character issues. He was projected as a top 5 talent otherwise, and obviously lived up to that billing.

Dez won't slip that far, but bottom of the first is very likely. Whether it's right or wrong, sometimes talent falls because of character concerns.

Maybe teams will learn that minor character concerns are definitely not a determining criteria in whether or not they draft that player. The two examples you gave turned out pretty well.

Splat
03-22-2010, 07:59 PM
It seems to me that you guys (Chiefs fans) are predicting what the team will do based on what you want, rather than what Scott Pioli and Co. will do in April.

I'm trying to look at from their POV that is why I have ruled out McClain and leaning towards Okung.

That said if I was picking I would take Berry.:)

1.Berry
2.Okung
3.Try like heck to trade down.
4.Bulaga but not happy about it.:(

T-RICH49
03-22-2010, 07:59 PM
my point is we have Ryan O'Callaghan who dia a very solid job for us last year and we just signed Lilja and Wiegmann so using a top 5 pick on an OT makes no sense cause you're not paying him to sit on the bench

Splat
03-22-2010, 08:03 PM
I thought O'Callaghan played solid as well but if the Chiefs take an OT round one O'Callaghan is not going to be starting any more.

JFLO
03-22-2010, 08:06 PM
I'm sorry, but if I'm Scott Pioli and I'm picking fifth overall, then I realize that I need to be smart with my money. I'm not taking a safety or inside linebacker fifth overall.

He has to be the perfect safety. I'm talking Eric Berry's talent with Mays' physical attributes. If that were the case, then I would take him, no questions asked.

However, that's not the case and if Okung and/or Bulaga are still on the board, then I'm taking either one of them, because it's the smarter choice, especially financially.

TonyGfortheTD
03-22-2010, 08:18 PM
Because Pioli has an extensive history of drafting offensive linemen in the first round. If you were going to go with the "Pioli drafting history" angle, Bulaga still wouldn't be the selection that makes sense. The history shows he has only drafted 1 Offensive lineman, which was with a pick that was right before the 2nd round compared to 3 Defensive linemen.

If you want to with the history angle, I can't argue it. If you're going to do it right though, better start putting Dan Williams in mocks lol

E: It seems to me that you guys (Chiefs fans) are predicting what the team will do based on what you want, rather than what Scott Pioli and Co. will do in April.
It seems you are doing the same exact same, except with Bulaga.

vidae
03-22-2010, 08:19 PM
You guys have absolutely NO idea what Scott Pioli will or won't do on draft day and you have no idea what he is thinking about this years prospects, so stop acting like you do.

Pat Kirwan is an idiot and always has been. His mocks are garbage. Stop putting so much stock into them.

M.O.T.H.
03-22-2010, 08:23 PM
Cant complain with the Dallas pick. That would be an epic, Kenny Phillips like fall, though. The rich get richer. It happens every year...see Beanie and the Cards last year but, I dont see Thomas being available. :(

Paranoidmoonduck
03-22-2010, 08:30 PM
Pat Kirwan is an idiot and always has been. His mocks are garbage. Stop putting so much stock into them.

Because only Kirwan has mocked Bulaga to Kansas City, right?

Anyways, Bryant may fall, but unless there's some major information that we as draft amateurs aren't privy to, he doesn't deserve to fall that far.

vidae
03-22-2010, 08:32 PM
Because only Kirwan has mocked Bulaga to Kansas City, right?

Anyways, Bryant may fall, but unless there's some major information that we as draft amateurs aren't privy to, he doesn't deserve to fall that far.

No, but that wasn't the only stupid pick in his mock either.

JFLO
03-22-2010, 08:34 PM
It seems you are doing the same exact same, except with Bulaga.

I could care less what the Chiefs do. All I know, is that when I predict what players go where, it has nothing to do with what I want.

Morton
03-22-2010, 08:36 PM
All of these Kansas City fans are going to be so disappointed when Berry falls past them to some other team in the first round because KC decided to draft another lineman.

vidae
03-22-2010, 08:39 PM
We'll see. :)

Scott Wright
03-22-2010, 08:40 PM
my point is we have Ryan O'Callaghan who dia a very solid job for us last year and we just signed Lilja and Wiegmann so using a top 5 pick on an OT makes no sense cause you're not paying him to sit on the bench

This Ryan O'Callaghan talk is eerily reminiscent of Bills fans who thought Terrence Pennington was going to be a stud a few years ago. O'Callaghan is a backup, at best.

Paranoidmoonduck
03-22-2010, 08:40 PM
No, but that wasn't the only stupid pick in his mock either.

I understand being frustrated with a pick, but the vast majority of draft prognosticators have slotted Bulaga to KC. Maybe it's one giant misdirection or just a mistake (like how Jeff Otah was supposed to be a Chief at the #5 pick in 2008), but a lot of people have said KC is looking really hard at OT. If Okung isn't there (he won't be), Bulaga isn't a terrible pick.

vidae
03-22-2010, 08:41 PM
This Ryan O'Callaghan talk is eerily reminiscent of Bills fans who thought Terrence Pennington was going to be a stud a few years ago. O'Callaghan is a backup, at best.

He's not the future but he's good enough. We have much bigger needs right now than OT, and it's pretty clear.

Scott Wright
03-22-2010, 08:42 PM
The bottom line is you can get safeties on the open market or through trades. We have seen perfect examples of that this offseason. However, basically the only way to get a top offensive tackle is to draft one. That is why the Chiefs will pass on Berry at #5 and devote the mega resource that is the #5 overall pick to a premium position, where it will be well spent.

Scott Wright
03-22-2010, 08:43 PM
He's not the future but he's good enough. We have much bigger needs right now than OT, and it's pretty clear.

Couldn't disagree more.

The Chiefs #1 focus needs to be giving Matt Cassel all the tools he needs to succeed. If Cassel doesn't work out the Chiefs will be set back five years (at least) and a lot of people in that organization are going to lose their jobs.

vidae
03-22-2010, 08:44 PM
The bottom line is you can get safeties on the open market or through trades. We have seen perfect examples of that this offseason. However, basically the only way to get a top offensive tackle is to draft one. That is why the Chiefs will pass on Berry at #5 and devote the mega resource that is the #5 overall pick to a premium position, where it will be well spent.

Didn't you say that you wouldn't consider any of these tackles "elite" players? If that's the case, you'd still advocate using a top 5 pick on one?

Couldn't disagree more.

The Chiefs #1 focus needs to be giving Matt Cassel all the tools he needs to succeed. If Cassel doesn't work out the Chiefs will be set back five years (at least) and a lot of people in that organization are going to lose their jobs.

We've provided some stability along the line through free agency already (Wiegmann is a stop-gap and Lilja could potentially start at RG) and since we've been moving towards a ZBS the protection has been a lot better.

If they feel like Albert improved enough as the year went on I could easily see them passing on an OT, no question.

Scott Wright
03-22-2010, 08:45 PM
Didn't you say that you wouldn't consider any of these tackles "elite" players? If that's the case, you'd still advocate using a top 5 pick on one?

A very good offensive tackle is much more valuable than a great safety.

Morton
03-22-2010, 08:48 PM
Remember the three steps to winning in the NFL: Get a QB, Protect your QB, and get to the other team's QB.

The positions that correspond with those imperatives are: QB, OT, and DE.

Nowhere on that list is the instruction to "find a safety to sit in the backfield while your offensive line gets torn to shreds and your defensive line can't get any pressure on the other quarterback".

yourfavestoner
03-22-2010, 08:48 PM
Because Pioli has an extensive history of drafting offensive linemen in the first round. If you were going to go with the "Pioli drafting history" angle, Bulaga still wouldn't be the selection that makes sense. The history shows he has only drafted 1 Offensive lineman, which was with a pick that was right before the 2nd round compared to 3 Defensive linemen.

If you want to with the history angle, I can't argue it. If you're going to do it right though, better start putting Dan Williams in mocks lol

E:
It seems you are doing the same exact same, except with Bulaga.

We also don't have an estensive history of Pioli drafting in the top five. Last year was the first year he ever did and he threw everybody for a loop by taking Tyson Jackson.

I'm not saying that it means they will take baluaga. Personally I think okung will be the pick.

vidae
03-22-2010, 08:54 PM
A very good offensive tackle is much more valuable than a great safety.

I saw every Chiefs game last year and while the offensive line started out struggling, I don't see it as a need RIGHT NOW. They got much better as the season went on, especially the last five or six games last year.

We need someone at the LG spot for when Waters retires, and we need someone to take over at C to take over for Wiegmann, who is a stop-gap one year rental player, but I'm not at all concerned with the tackle situation.

I'm not necessarily advocating a safety top 5, but rather a non-OT.

ThePudge
03-22-2010, 08:54 PM
You guys have absolutely NO idea what Scott Pioli will or won't do on draft day

Even as a Chiefs fan, neither do you. Not one Chiefs fan on this board even entertained the possibility of Tyson Jackson a year ago with your Top 5 pick, even on draft day.

Remember Aaron Curry, the lock?

Vidae, you had this to say after the Chiefs pick a year ago "Terrible. Just terrible."

T-RICH only days prior to the draft "I wish the rumors about Tyson Jackson would stop. He is Ryan Sims v 2.0 IMO only different positions"

I love the Kansas City fans here, but as far as predicting the draft goes, I don't think they have any more insight on Scott Pioli than the casual Giants or Jaguars fan. Your GM doesn't give a **** if you like the pick, he'll make it if he wants it. DL/OT/QB are the premium positions in today's NFL and the Top 5 will likely consist of only those positions this year.

Bryan Bulaga is a prospect that many would take before Eric Berry? Rock at Left Tackle? Or playmaker at Safety?... Good luck finding a physical LT past the first round. I agree ILB/S may be worse situations, bigger holes, but they're also holes that can be addressed later on. I would bet OL for the Chiefs whether it be Okung, Bulaga, or Trent Williams. I have seen nothing to suggest the Kirk Ferentz-Pioli connection would have the Chiefs taking Bulaga over Russell Okung. Hopefully it clears up a bit...

Not sure whether Pioli sees the hole at LT as glaring or something that can be addressed in later years... but I don't see them going Safety/Linebacker in the Top 5, I really just don't think that's your GMs personality.

TonyGfortheTD
03-22-2010, 08:56 PM
Couldn't disagree more.

The Chiefs #1 focus needs to be giving Matt Cassel all the tools he needs to succeed. If Cassel doesn't work out the Chiefs will be set back five years (at least) and a lot of people in that organization are going to lose their jobs.

The same can be said though if they can't field a quality defense.

There were a lot of attributes that went into what was the result of the 2009 offense. For as many sacks as he took for bad blocking, he took just as many because he held onto the ball for far too long. Want a telling stat? Look at how many sacks he took behind the Chiefs line compared to the Patriots line the previous year.

A lack of a running back to actually take pressure off him for a good portion of the season along with a receiving group that led the NFL in drops and dropped 1 out of 10 of his attempts.

Drafting a OT isn't going to be the magic band aid to the offensive problems nor will it do anything to improve a Defense that ranked near the bottom of the NFL.

I'm certain a lot of the points I've projected can be argued, but some of the points that have been used to describe Piolis from others draft record has been baffling.


Remember Aaron Curry, the lock?

I remember quite well arguing against the thought of the Chiefs drafting Aaron Curry at 3 to shoehorn him in as a ILB.

To wrap this post up, I'll say this. Pioli going for the safe choice in the first round is an odd argument. Defensive Linemen are anything but safe, yet he has drafted a lot of them.

I don't think he has a specific position he likes to favor when deciding who to draft in the first round. In my view, he just simply goes BPA on his board to fill the biggest hole on the team. DE was without a doubt the biggest hole on the team when Tyson Jackson was drafted about a year ago.

vidae
03-22-2010, 08:59 PM
I've said multiple times that I could see us taking an OT (and I'd be happy to find my older posts if you wish) 5th overall, my contention is that it isn't as big of a need as some of you may think.

I'm pretty sure I've never said that it won't be the pick, just that I disagreed with it being as high up on the needs list than some of you think. I'll eat crow if you can find me a post where I guarantee the pick won't be OT.

And ThePudge, didn't you mock us Bryant in your last mock?

prock
03-22-2010, 09:08 PM
I saw every Chiefs game last year and while the offensive line started out struggling, I don't see it as a need RIGHT NOW. They got much better as the season went on, especially the last five or six games last year.

We need someone at the LG spot for when Waters retires, and we need someone to take over at C to take over for Wiegmann, who is a stop-gap one year rental player, but I'm not at all concerned with the tackle situation.

I'm not necessarily advocating a safety top 5, but rather a non-OT.

So who do you want? Bryant? Dan Williams? Rolando McClain? JPP? OT seems like the most plausible option here in terms of value. Berry would be the better pick in terms of need, but tackle is where the value is. If Okung is there, he HAS to be the pick. If it is between Berry and Bulaga, Bulaga will be the pick simply because of the position he plays. Berry is a sexier pick, and someone a fan like you or I would pick in the situation, but NFL people would go with a tackle every time there.

vidae
03-22-2010, 09:11 PM
Who do I want or who do I want that seems more realistic? If we're talking a realistic top 5 pick, I'd take Dez Bryant over an OT. If we're talking strictly hypothetical, who I want and who would fill the biggest need but not necessarily have the best VALUE, I'd take Berry or McClain.

descendency
03-22-2010, 09:11 PM
He won't fall past Baltimore.

edit: Do you really think a 6'2" WR with average speed goes in the top 10???

TonyGfortheTD
03-22-2010, 09:13 PM
So who do you want? Bryant? Dan Williams? Rolando McClain? JPP? OT seems like the most plausible option here in terms of value. Berry would be the better pick in terms of need, but tackle is where the value is. If Okung is there, he HAS to be the pick. If it is between Berry and Bulaga, Bulaga will be the pick simply because of the position he plays. Berry is a sexier pick, and someone a fan like you or I would pick in the situation, but NFL people would go with a tackle every time there.

Tyson Jackson was amazing value.

prock
03-22-2010, 09:15 PM
Who do I want or who do I want that seems more realistic? If we're talking a realistic top 5 pick, I'd take Dez Bryant. If we're talking strictly hypothetical, who I want and who would fill the biggest need but not necessarily have the best VALUE, I'd take Berry or McClain.

Well I was asking who you want there if not an OT, since it seems that that is by far the best value, besides maybe Dez, who will most likely not get drafted top 5. So I assume you want Bryant then.

prock
03-22-2010, 09:16 PM
He won't fall past Baltimore.

edit: Do you really think a 6'2" WR with average speed goes in the top 10???

So you only base who you are drafting based on measurables? Sorry, not every owner/GM is Al Davis, they actually watch tape.

Tyson Jackson was amazing value.

You cannot compare the Berry situation to the Jackson situation, because Jackson plays a premium position, therefore his value is inflated, just like Bulaga's.

TonyGfortheTD
03-22-2010, 09:18 PM
You cannot compare the Berry situation to the Jackson situation, because Jackson plays a premium position, therefore his value is inflated, just like Bulaga's.

So when did 3-4 end become just as valued as a franchise LT? Hey what do you know, they had the chance to select a good potential for one....who just happened to be Branden Alberts own team mate that beat him out of the LT spot at Virginia in Eugene Monroe to take Tyson Jackson.

E: Hey, that's actually interesting. I remember several people mocking Eugene Monroe to KC exactly one year ago.

SenorGato
03-22-2010, 09:18 PM
Remember the three steps to winning in the NFL: Get a QB, Protect your QB, and get to the other team's QB.

The positions that correspond with those imperatives are: QB, OT, and DE.

Nowhere on that list is the instruction to "find a safety to sit in the backfield while your offensive line gets torn to shreds and your defensive line can't get any pressure on the other quarterback".

DE should read DL, since DTs can create pressure too. It should read QB, OL, DL.

I think KC's offense could possibly be great if they had both Bowe and Bryant. Okung also works too, but they can grab a C and a RG (they drafted Albert to play LT) later in the draft.

bored of education
03-22-2010, 09:19 PM
Hmm interesting stuff going on in this thread.

If Kansas City wants to 'protect' their investment then they need weapons more than offensive line. But I understand the need for offensive line. As previously stated by a few non Chiefs fan posters on here, nothing the Chiefs do hinges on what they think of Branden Albert. It is more of what they think of Ryan O'callaghan. Ocally is the epitome of a Pioli guy, a grinder who works his ass off and regardless of his injury concers he did start 11 games last year for KC and has plenty of experience under any Pioli regime. I dont think he is the answer, he is solid for what he did last year, but does Pioli think they can upgrade other positions and leave Ocally at RT for the time being or maybe addres RT later, shift ALbert get someone early. No matter what Albert has a place on this line. Its all about Ocally and if Pioli feels addressing O line is an urgent need that he needs to replace Ocally or not. I think he will, but I can see using the "he's a Pioli guy (hmm so is Bulaga, sorta right?)".

I think KC needs to address the Oline and personally grabbing Bulaga/Okung and having best of the two Albert and said draftee fight for LT and then put other at RT is a good philosophy. But I don't see a great discrepency between the likes of Albert/Okung or Bulaga and Albert at LT and Vlad/Kyle Calloway. Its not a huge drop off. I'd rather the first example. I will use this post as my ringing endorsement for one or the other Bulaga/Okung. I feel long term it would be best for the orginaztion.

Now on to Pioli and draft trends and offensive line, regardless of who had final say?

Matt Light: 48th overall
Logan Mankins: 32nd overall
Nick Kaczur: 100th overall
Dan Koppen: 164th

Just saying.

But yes good stuff guys!

prock
03-22-2010, 09:21 PM
So when did 3-4 end become just as valued as a franchise LT? Hey what do you know, they had the chance to select a good potential for one....who just happened to be Branden Alberts own team mate that beat him out of the LT spot at Virginia in Eugene Monroe to take Tyson Jackson.

Please point out where I said LT and 3-4 DE were of equal value. I said Jackson plays a premium position and Berry doesn't. If you want to tell me that defensive line isn't a premium position, I have nothing to say to you. And they didn't take Monroe because they hadn't even given Albert a shot at LT yet. Now they did. He wasn't bad, but he can be upgraded.

TonyGfortheTD
03-22-2010, 09:22 PM
Please point out where I said LT and 3-4 DE were of equal value. I said Jackson plays a premium position and Berry doesn't. If you want to tell me that defensive line isn't a premium position, I have nothing to say to you. And they didn't take Monroe because they hadn't even given Albert a shot at LT yet. Now they did. He wasn't bad, but he can be upgraded.

Feel free to point out where I mentioned Eric Berry here.

Tyson Jackson was amazing value.

If you actually read, you would of noticed that it appears Pioli points out the biggest hole on the team and drafts the BPA on his board to fill said hole.

Chiefs total offense YPG ranking: 25
Chiefs total defense YPG ranking: 30
Offense free agents brought in: 5
Defensive free agents brought in: 1

The Defense is in desperate need of immediate attention.

bored of education
03-22-2010, 09:23 PM
An by endorsing I mean I trust Pioli with whomever he picks :D

prock
03-22-2010, 09:24 PM
BOE, I am just clearing it up, because I think I am misunderstanding, but it almost sounds like you think Vlad and Calloway are almost as good as Okung and Bulaga. I am not being sarcastic at all, I just think I am misunderstanding your post.

prock
03-22-2010, 09:27 PM
Feel free to point out where I mentioned Eric Berry here.

You want them to draft Berry, I said he doesn't play a premium position, and isn't worth a top 5 pick. You said you don't want Bulaga. Okung will most likely be gone. Since you mentioned no other player for them to potentially take, it is definitely a justifiable assumption to say you are advocating Berry at 5.

If you actually read, you would of noticed that it appears Pioli points out the biggest hole on the team and drafts the BPA on his board to fill said hole.

Pioli pointed out the biggest hole at a premium position. Pioli has 1 year of drafting in the top 5, so if you are going to base your argument off of his one year "trend", then this is just one big fallacy.

vidae
03-22-2010, 09:27 PM
BOE, I am just clearing it up, because I think I am misunderstanding, but it almost sounds like you think Vlad and Calloway are almost as good as Okung and Bulaga. I am not being sarcastic at all, I just think I am misunderstanding your post.

I think he was more saying that taking Vlad in the second would be the upgrade we need at RT if it isn't addressed in the first by drafting an OT and moving Albert.

bored of education
03-22-2010, 09:29 PM
BOE, I am just clearing it up, because I think I am misunderstanding, but it almost sounds like you think Vlad and Calloway are almost as good as Okung and Bulaga. I am not being sarcastic at all, I just think I am misunderstanding your post.

I was saying the duo of Okung/Bulaga and Albert (LT and Albert at RT) does not have a huge drop off from Albert(LT)and one of the later types 2nd-3rd rounder types(RT). I just dont think the discrepency is there because neither Bulaga nor Okung are franchise saving LTs and neither is Albert.

wonderbredd24
03-22-2010, 09:32 PM
if I'm Seattle, I hope Kansas City is stupid enough to pass on Bulaga since Bulaga has to be Seattle's wet dream. A 20 year old kid who played the ZBS at Iowa going to a team trying to integrate a ZBS under Carroll.

bored of education
03-22-2010, 09:32 PM
but to shore up two positions sure fine. If Pioli makes the move for Bulaga/Okung well then I trust him and I hope we have bookends for 10 years.

prock
03-22-2010, 09:32 PM
I think he was more saying that taking Vlad in the second would be the upgrade we need at RT if it isn't addressed in the first by drafting an OT and moving Albert.

That would be a good move, and that would be good value as well. But then who are they going to pick in the first? Bryant? Most fans would hate that. Berry? His position doesn't warrant that high of a pick.

I was saying the duo of Okung/Bulaga and Albert (LT and Albert at RT) does not have a huge drop off from Albert(LT)and one of the later types 2nd-3rd rounder types(RT). I just dont think the discrepency is there because neither Bulaga nor Okung are franchise saving LTs and neither is Albert.

I think Bulaga or Okung at LT and Albert at RT would be significantly better than Albert and Vlad or Calloway or Fox. But that is just differing opinions on prospects, so that is meaningless.

TonyGfortheTD
03-22-2010, 09:34 PM
You want them to draft Berry, I said he doesn't play a premium position, and isn't worth a top 5 pick. You said you don't want Bulaga. Okung will most likely be gone. Since you mentioned no other player for them to potentially take, it is definitely a justifiable assumption to say you are advocating Berry at 5.



Pioli pointed out the biggest hole at a premium position. Pioli has 1 year of drafting in the top 5, so if you are going to base your argument off of his one year "trend", then this is just one big fallacy.

Yeah, I'd like them to get Berry. Don't get me wrong. We all think Pioli would be a total moron if he passes on Berry, but we're prepared for it to happen.

The point I'm making is OT is not a lock as much as everyone wants to think it's a lock. I honestly wouldn't be surprised if Pioli passed on Eric Berry to take Dan Williams.

Thumper
03-22-2010, 09:35 PM
Thumper, thanks for copying-pasting, obviously I had no idea it was multiple different posts & such. I think you're definitely underestimating what he's shown on film. He's on of the fastest receivers in this class & his system wasn't designed to get him the ball quickly (a la Michael Crabtree). He averaged 17 a catch and was one of the most prolific downfield threats in recent memory. All he needs to do to get separation is run... he had no problem getting open in college. I'm so much more sold on him as a player & person than I was Michael Crabtree. There will be teams that will eliminate his kind of character from their boards all together, but there's going to be at least one team (Cleveland, Buffalo, Jacksonville, Denver, Miami, Seattle) that is sold.

Right now his stock may be 15-25, but that's because he's left a sour taste in everyone's mouth. By the time he works out, makes visits, builds relationships with GMs I think Dez will once again be destined for the 7-14 range.

Okay, you said his scheme isn't supposed to get him the ball quickly however just by glancing over his highlights you can see a lot of plays like screen plays that are designed to get the ball in Dez's hands quickly and to let him do what he does after the catch. And if you look at the Georgia game there are instances where he got separation quite often because they played some off coverage on him and he didn't really ever face the press in college, but in some instances when he did face the press against Georgia he didn't do very well at gaining separation, once he even resorted to head-butting the corner to gain separation and a he rounds off his routes a lot as well. All of that is fine in college where he is a top flight player but what happens when he makes it to the NFL? What is going to happen when he is all of a sudden running prostyle routes consistently? Or when he faces press coverage more often? Or when he will be forced to be precise with his routes to gain separation? You say he has no problems getting open in college and I agree, as I mentioned earlier he didn't really face a lot of press and they played off coverage often against him but what is going to happen when in the NFL all of a sudden the corners are no longer 18, 19, 20 year olds and he faces NFL caliber corners that aren't afraid of him burning them because they has the same deep speed. The talent jump from Big-12 corners to NFL corners is quite significant, especially considering the best CB in the Big 12 never even faced Bryant because he was on the same team.

And you're more sold on Bryant's character? So you're more sold on a guy's character who was lazy in practice, often late to practice, late and absent at meetings and was apparently late for games as well? Say what you want about Crabtree but he never did anything like what Dez did, in fact many people noted Crabtree's work ethic, he played through injury, is highly competitive, was a hard worker who did the little things to become great and he had a desire to be great and because of that he worked hard at whatever he did. I never heard any stories about Crabtree missing practice willingly or being late to games. He had an entourage, so what, Lebron James has an entourage, does having an entourage make someone bad?

Also after he works out you think he'll be top 10 again? I don't think many people doubt his physical skills, he certainly has enough to be great in the NFL, its only a matter of working on the finer things like route running and concentration, something I'm not sure Dez is committed to doing. And what kind of a message do you think he sends scouts when he refuses to workout at Oklahoma St.? Because it certainly isn't something that he needs to be projecting, he shows no loyalty to his school, he looks like he is a bit petty and bitter about things coaches have been saying about him and I'd say that him making his own workout in Waco, Texas only further enhances his image of immaturity.

superman8456
03-22-2010, 09:39 PM
So you only base who you are drafting based on measurables? Sorry, not every owner/GM is Al Davis, they actually watch tape.



Sorry, but he did not provide much tape last season. I'd be a little worried about drafting someone who has been removed from football for a fairly big amount of time.

vidae
03-22-2010, 09:40 PM
That would be a good move, and that would be good value as well. But then who are they going to pick in the first? Bryant? Most fans would hate that. Berry? His position doesn't warrant that high of a pick.

That's the rub. I like Saffold a lot, I like Ducasse a lot, and I think if we're trying to bolster the line that those guys would be better choices, but the value isn't necessarily there for anything other than OT/QB/DE/Pass Rusher top 5 so we're either looking at a reach (Berry or McClain, which I'd be fine with) or drafting a position/player that a lot of Chiefs fans won't be happy with.

In the end it probably won't matter, as anyone we draft (literally) will start, I just think there are bigger upgrades to be made elsewhere, that's all.

Splat
03-22-2010, 09:44 PM
The bottom line is you can get safeties on the open market or through trades. We have seen perfect examples of that this offseason. However, basically the only way to get a top offensive tackle is to draft one. That is why the Chiefs will pass on Berry at #5 and devote the mega resource that is the #5 overall pick to a premium position, where it will be well spent.

I hear that what I don't get is why in the world would the Chiefs pass on the best OT in the draft Okung (if there) if OT is the route they want to go?

prock
03-22-2010, 09:44 PM
Sorry, but he did not provide much tape last season. I'd be a little worried about drafting someone who has been removed from football for a fairly big amount of time.

Which is why scouts will watch the previous years tape, work him out, and determine for themselves whether he is worth the pick. The scouts won't knock him down their boards because of an inch or two or .1 on his 40 time. I think too much goes into measurables. His physical tools are more than adequate, this is just nitpicking.

Splat
03-22-2010, 09:57 PM
Dammit I missed the heated part of the discussion.

ThePudge
03-22-2010, 10:05 PM
And you're more sold on Bryant's character? So you're more sold on a guy's character who was lazy in practice, often late to practice, late and absent at meetings and was apparently late for games as well? Say what you want about Crabtree but he never did anything like what Dez did, in fact many people noted Crabtree's work ethic, he played through injury, is highly competitive, was a hard worker who did the little things to become great and he had a desire to be great and because of that he worked hard at whatever he did. I never heard any stories about Crabtree missing practice willingly or being late to games. He had an entourage, so what, Lebron James has an entourage, does having an entourage make someone bad?

And what kind of a message do you think he sends scouts when he refuses to workout at Oklahoma St.? Because it certainly isn't something that he needs to be projecting, he shows no loyalty to his school, he looks like he is a bit petty and bitter about things coaches have been saying about him and I'd say that him making his own workout in Waco, Texas only further enhances his image of immaturity.

The 4.5-4.6 receiver that averages 17 per catch (19 Tds) on screen passes... Unreal... He was used primarily in the vertical passing game for the Cowboys. His speed, on film, looks in the 4.45 range & he was quick-footed/explosive/fast enough to be one of the best Punt Returners in the Big XII (17 avg 2 Td) as well as the best receiver in the conference in 2008 (sorry Crabtree.)

Crabtree is the league's next big headcase receiver. T.O., Braylon, Chad, etc.. those guys didn't come in with a sense of entitlement, Crabs did. Those guys were signed and in camp, Crabs held out, missed camp, and missed a portion of the season because he thought he was above the rules (#10 pick wanted #7 money because he was rated higher by most draft services.) Teams such as Cleveland literally took him off their board after he visited their facility. That's bad. Cleveland. He didn't work out before the draft at all. He just turned me off an immense amount with his attitude & would have been off my board a year ago. If I'm an NFL team I don't need that ****.

Dez misses a meeting, you fine him. He misses two, you dock him a game (and a paycheck). This is a business, we're working with money and his immaturity appeals to me more than Michael Crabtree's. Football is about to be his profession & I think he's getting a bad rep because of what he's done in the past (relating to laziness). He got hurt, he couldn't work out at the Combine. That's a tough break, not laziness. He didn't feel he was ready for Ok. State's pro day so he decided to hold a separate one (like Brandon Graham/Sam Bradford.) If he worked harder, maybe he would have been able work out at Ok. State's Pro Day, but if he feels like he couldn't perform his best then you don't work out.

I'm not saying a lazy red flag > attitude red flag in most cases, but I liked Bryant as a person more than I did Crabtree & I have more faith in Dez maturing than I did Michael.

I still have Dez among my Top 6 players regardless of position though I think he'll be pushed down the board somewhat by his position & these laziness concerns. By April 22nd he will have worked out, he will have visited teams, he will have had dinner with coaches. Marvin Lewis built a strong relationship w/Chris Henry entering the draft & someone will build a strong one with Bryant. He has those work-ethic concerns (I'm not saying he doesn't) but he's a pretty good, genuine guy who isn't going to act like he's already an NFL star.

Top 14, I'm sticking by it and by draft day I don't expect you'll think that's such a bold statement. It only takes one team. Trust me, I wish I thought you were right here. I don't think Mike Brown would care if the guy was asleep on draft day and God knows I'd love to have him at 21 as a Cincinnati Bengal. Still, I have to respectfully disagree with your statement that he's not a Top 20 pick... I think out of Cleveland, Buffalo, Jacksonville, Denver, Miami, and Seattle (7-14) someone will build a bond & endure the risks just like San Fran did with Crabtree a year ago. Miami at 12 is a team that would be very unwise to pass on Bryant and his #1 ability.

ThePudge
03-22-2010, 10:08 PM
And ThePudge, didn't you mock us Bryant in your last mock?

My last mock was before Bryant hurt his hamstring & couldn't work out at the Combine. It was in Mid-February... you know, before the Combine & any Pro Day?

Rosebud
03-22-2010, 10:47 PM
Ehh, teams can get franchise LTs later in the first and even early in the second, so while I agree that to get a stud LT a team needs to draft one, but they have Albert already there and they could theoretically get one in future years or later this year. So while I'm not disagreeing with the value picks notion, I don't think it's an absolute that that team will hold to come draft day. I could certainly see them nabbing Bryant, JPP or Berry if Okung is gone

Thumper
03-22-2010, 11:32 PM
Pudge: You and I are going to have to disagree on the issue of Crabs and Dez. Personally I'll take the guy with the ego and the drive to be great than the guy who is less egotistical (but still egotistical) and lazier. Personally, I'm taking the TO, Ochocinco or Edwards you described in your post rather than taking the next Mike Williams (extreme situation but you get the idea).

I think Dez has the talent, the tools are there, I've said it multiple times but I don't think that he has the drive to be great, I'm not sure if he has the motivation to do all the little things required to succeed in the NFL. Once he gets that paycheck is he going to take the time to learn how to run proper routes, learn the route tree, is he going to show up to meetings? Is he going to be on time? These are real a legitimate concerns that make him more likely to bust than other prospects.

But I presented Mike Williams as an example which I'm not sure is really fair to Dez, so I'll bring up another guy who Dez's attitude resembled coming out of college, DeSean Jackson. DeSean was another guy who went half ass at practice, showed up late to meetings and overall walked around like he owned Cal. His attitude and work ethic concerns were a big reason why he fell in the draft. Fortunately he took the fall the right way and wanted to prove his doubters wrong, but during the Eagles first camp Donovan McNabb and the veterans had to make sure he got up on time, went to the meetings etc. etc. DeSean was fortunate enough to walk into a situation with a strong coach and strong leaders in the locker room. So I'm not going to say that Dez is going to fail because there have been players with similar issues who have succeeded, all I'm saying is that his attitude and work ethic concerns are a huge red flag that make him more likely to bust and I think if he goes to a coach that won't discipline him correctly or set a fire under him, he will bust.

But I really think teams need to think long and hard about Dez, he is coming from a funky offense, has a history of immaturity and irresponsibility and he has work ethic concerns, do teams want to take the risk and invest tons of money in him? What's going to happen once he gets a huge paycheck? These teams aren't going to risk it with Dez, a lot of these coaches jobs are riding on the success of their draft and they can't risk taking a guy like Dez. Its why when reporters call scouts, the idea of Dez Bryant going top 15 is met with 'resistance', its the reason scouts are running scared after talking to him. This is their career, their future in the field might rely on a pick turning out, why risk taking a chance on an attitude problem like Dez when you could take a safer player in someone like Bryan Bulaga, Eric Berry, Rolando McClain, Dan Williams, Trent Williams or Brandon Graham?

Plus I'm not sure any of those teams are willing to risk taking Dez, Cleveland just struggled with a similar player in Braylon Edwards, Buffalo just had a spin with an egotistical receiver in TO, Jacksonville has had serious issues with first round receivers, Denver already has one problem receiver in Marshall, Miami has Ted Ginn eating up cap space and Bill Parcells never goes WR in round 1 and Seattle has much more pressing needs like basically everything except TE and LB.

gpngc
03-22-2010, 11:41 PM
Quickly about Seattle...

You are right - they need everything. But they also need WR after losing Burleson. After Housh (old himself), they have Branch (possible cut), Deon Butler, and Ben Obamanu.

It would not surprise me at all to see Dez Bryant selected by the Seahawks at #14. Tim Ruskell was the guy who cared all about speed and character - the new regime may or may not value character as much.

Remember, Pete Carroll dealt with troubled youths during his free time in SoCal so I would definitely think that the Seahawks are a team that may look at some of the immature or troubled prospects with character concerns when in past years they wouldn't.

ThePudge
03-22-2010, 11:44 PM
Pudge: You and I are going to have to disagree on the issue of Crabs and Dez. Personally I'll take the guy with the ego and the drive to be great than the guy who is less egotistical (but still egotistical) and lazier. Personally, I'm taking the TO, Ochocinco or Edwards you described in your post rather than taking the next Mike Williams (extreme situation but you get the idea).


As I said, I really don't think laziness is a better quality for an NFL player than attitude problems/a sense of entitlement, but each situation requires it's won individual probing. I wasn't crazy about Crabtree to begin with, liked Jeremy Maclin more (controversially) and his sense of entitlement really rubbed me the wrong way. I just don't like how the guy treats people and I think he has the potential to be a chemistry-killer (or at least not the greatest teammate & a distraction for a team.)

I just think the work ethic concerns are a little overplayed with Bryant... Guy prepares well (look at his physique... guy's an Adonis!) and he plays hard on the field. You'd like to see him work harder in practice & take everything more seriously, but he's 20 years old and should mature when missing those meetings results in fines/suspensions. Maybe he gets the money & takes the rest of the career off like so many before him, but count me as one with faith in him.

We're not going to see eye to eye and that's absolutely fine. NFL GMs rarely see eye to eye (see Al Davis vs. Scott Pioli for example) and the draft is so unpredictable because of disagreements and the opinions of men. On draft day many teams' war rooms are split, there's no consensus in the NFL Draft in any organization. So at this point, I understand what you're saying, where you're coming from, I just think you're wrong (and you think I'm wrong) & that's perfectly reasonable.

descendency
03-23-2010, 02:44 AM
So you only base who you are drafting based on measurables? Sorry, not every owner/GM is Al Davis, they actually watch tape.

When you are drafting in the top 10 (unless the pick is the result of a really dumb trade) It's not about how good of a player they are. It's about how good of a player they can become. Upside and positional value is huge in the top 10.

There are great WRs with average speed. Think Chad Ochocinco. I'm just not sure you gamble on a WR and hope he has the upside to merit a top 10 pick. Teams that pick WRs in the top 10 rounds, usually pick there quite often.

prock
03-23-2010, 12:09 PM
When you are drafting in the top 10 (unless the pick is the result of a really dumb trade) It's not about how good of a player they are. It's about how good of a player they can become. Upside and positional value is huge in the top 10.

There are great WRs with average speed. Think Chad Ochocinco. I'm just not sure you gamble on a WR and hope he has the upside to merit a top 10 pick. Teams that pick WRs in the top 10 rounds, usually pick there quite often.

Why do you say that? Because the Lions did it so much?

RealityCheck
03-23-2010, 12:36 PM
The trade down is the most profitable thing for KC to do.

Say, to #22?

descendency
03-23-2010, 12:37 PM
Why do you say that? Because the Lions did it so much?

Because all but like 4 WRs (CJ, Fitz, Andre, and Holt) of the 15 busted in the last decade (not including some of the more recent ones, who haven't had time to show anything). Sure, making good draft picks later can save you from misery, but something about taking a WR high just doesn't work out.

If you want to count Plaxico Burress, that makes 5 but he was drafted by the Steelers.

If I had to guess, I'd guess that from 1999 to 2009, 5 WRs were drafted in the top 10 that did almost anything in the NFL. The other 14 were busts. Troy Williamson went from useless to amazing with Favre for one year.

bitonti
03-23-2010, 12:37 PM
Top 14, I'm sticking by it .

considering he was a top 5 guy this is a big fall

don't worry guys he doesn't have time to workout for the scouts but he has the time to hang out at Adam Pac Man Jones' pro day.

thurd.

yourfavestoner
03-23-2010, 12:41 PM
Because all but like 4 WRs (CJ, Fitz, Andre, and Holt) of the 15 busted in the last decade (not including some of the more recent ones, who haven't had time to show anything). Sure, making good draft picks later can save you from misery, but something about taking a WR high just doesn't work out.

If you want to count Plaxico Burress, that makes 5 but he was drafted by the Steelers.

If I had to guess, I'd guess that from 1999 to 2009, 5 WRs were drafted in the top 10 that did almost anything in the NFL. The other 14 were busts. Troy Williamson went from useless to amazing with Favre for one year.

Troy Williamson was on IR for Jacksonville all last season.

The reason why taking a WR high usually doesn't work is because their success is so dependent on factors outside of their control. You can be the best WR in the world and be running wide open on every play, but it doesn't matter if your QB can't get you the ball or is getting blasted in less than 3 seconds. There's also the fact that a good WR touches the ball, what, six times a game? That's not a whole lot of opportunity to make an impact, especially when you consider for every 9 catch game, there's one with just 3 receptions.

Rosebud
03-23-2010, 01:00 PM
Troy Williamson was on IR for Jacksonville all last season.

The reason why taking a WR high is because their success is so dependent on factors outside of their control. You can be the best WR in the world and be running wide open on every play, but it doesn't matter if your QB can't get you the ball or is getting blasted in less than 3 seconds. There's also the fact that a good WR touches the ball, what, six times a game? That's not a whole lot of opportunity to make an impact, especially when you consider for every 9 catch game, there's one with just 3 receptions.

I think that's a case for not taking receivers as well though. They don't touch the ball very often and their production is so situation dependent. If you're picking top 10 then you probably need help at more important positions like LT, QB or DL, so unless you're passing on a guy like Andre or Calvin Johnson, I think you'll find much more bang for your buck picking another position.

yourfavestoner
03-23-2010, 01:01 PM
I think that's a case for not taking receivers as well though. They don't touch the ball very often and their production is so situation dependent. If you're picking top 10 then you probably need help at more important positions like LT, QB or DL, so unless you're passing on a guy like Andre or Calvin Johnson, I think you'll find much more bang for your buck picking another position.

Ha, that's exactly what I was trying to say. I just forgot the "not."

prock
03-23-2010, 01:18 PM
I think that's a case for not taking receivers as well though. They don't touch the ball very often and their production is so situation dependent. If you're picking top 10 then you probably need help at more important positions like LT, QB or DL, so unless you're passing on a guy like Andre or Calvin Johnson, I think you'll find much more bang for your buck picking another position.

But that is exactly the thing. You shouldn't be taking a receiver that early unless they are a once in a generation type talent, or you have your franchise quarterback in place and need to give him the pieces to succeed. Also, you need a competent line. The Chiefs line improved last year, and if they add someone like Vlad in round 2, their line will be good enough to the point they have afford to spend a top 5 pick on a receiver like Bryant. Competent line + franchise quarterback + no value at other positions of need = drafting a receiver in the top 10? I think that works out fine.

proshoota25
03-25-2010, 01:09 PM
The trade down is the most profitable thing for KC to do.

Say, to #22?

yeah and the patriots really want to pay someone top 5 money. i dont think so buddy.

superfly69
03-25-2010, 01:22 PM
He won't fall past the Bengals at #21. But he could easily fall that far.

CC.SD
03-25-2010, 01:28 PM
yeah and the patriots really want to pay someone top 5 money. i dont think so buddy.

What about next year?

Clarkw267
03-25-2010, 02:20 PM
Pudge: You and I are going to have to disagree on the issue of Crabs and Dez. Personally I'll take the guy with the ego and the drive to be great than the guy who is less egotistical (but still egotistical) and lazier. Personally, I'm taking the TO, Ochocinco or Edwards you described in your post rather than taking the next Mike Williams (extreme situation but you get the idea).


Here's my thing. A guy with the "drive" that you say Crabtree has, wouldn't have sat out a good portion of his rookie season.. If you love football, and want to be the best, you just don't do that.

PrimetimeTheDon
03-25-2010, 02:28 PM
I've said it before and I'll say it again: STOP TAKING PAT KIRWAN SERIOUSLY

honestly, how many crazy mocks do you people need?

My question is, where is the Gil Brandt mock?

Jvig43
03-25-2010, 02:34 PM
What about next year?

What should of been said is were not going to pay top 5 money for someone unless the staff truly believes that player is worth it. It wouldnt surprise me if we trade down next year again either.

Splat
03-25-2010, 02:36 PM
The trade down is the most profitable thing for KC to do.

Say, to #22?

Who would NE even want at #5?

Addict
03-25-2010, 02:38 PM
My question is, where is the Gil Brandt mock?

he usually has decent ones, right?

So far the only one who's been making sense to me is Scott and Mike Mayock.

Has gosselin made one yet?

PrimetimeTheDon
03-25-2010, 02:43 PM
he usually has decent ones, right?

So far the only one who's been making sense to me is Scott and Mike Mayock.

Has gosselin made one yet?

Gosselin hasn't made one yet to my knowledge.

Brandt is the old fart on nfl.com. Yes, his mocks are pretty damn reliable. I almost never look at mock drafts, but his I always like to scan his. About as reliable of a "mock draft" as you'll get, in my humble opinion. Last year he was the first person out there to mock Tyson Jackson top 3. When everyone had him in the 20's, the geezer claims he's a top 3 lock. 4 months later, everybody else is doing it and look what happened.