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View Full Version : SI Article on NFL and Draft Stereotypes


PickedOffTwice
03-27-2010, 08:37 AM
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2010/writers/ross_tucker/03/22/stereotypes/index.html

Good article, though I found it a bit brief. I would have liked to read a bit more about it. Anyway:

Well, the Gerhart thing was discussed around here (and castefootball.us ;-)) for quite a bit.

But I also found the point about Rolle and Tucker himself interesting. That NFL coaches don't want players to have a life besides football or to be smarter than them. Talking about insecurity. That's something I had never pictured before when I thougt about NFL coaches.

On second thought, it's a business afterall. For the Franchise, being smart in anything but football or having a life besides it diminishes your value as a good. Simple as that, I guess.

Addict
03-27-2010, 08:54 AM
I'm really not sure about the point on coaches, I think it's a bit far-fetched. The other points however are definately valid. I liked what Gerhard said about being colorblind as viewing himself as a player, not a color.

FUNBUNCHER
03-27-2010, 09:13 AM
The collective level of analysis on SWDC is amazing sometimes.

The comparisons among Corey Dillon, Eddie George, Stephen Davis,( the first two backs being players whom Gerhart compares himself in the SI article), and Gerhart were made on this site at least a month or two ago.

I personally don't have any problems with Rolle's academic background, I just don't think he's a very accomplished safety prospect.

Babylon
03-27-2010, 11:06 AM
Probably could have added Tim Tebow with all he has going on.

CC.SD
03-27-2010, 11:19 AM
I like how that article also tries to portray smart safeties in the same category as white running backs. Being smart is not why Myron Rolle isn't going to be drafted high. That's insane.

vidae
03-27-2010, 11:29 AM
Cliffs anyone?

WCH
03-27-2010, 03:54 PM
That article leads me to think that he was being discriminated against because he has an "I'm Ivy League, and smarter than the rest of the NFL" attitude.

The Dude Abides
03-27-2010, 06:44 PM
I think he is completely right. Gerhard's problem is more of an ingrained skepticism. As he said, they are not being intentionally discriminatory.

Myron Rolle's problem is not only that he is ridiculously smart and has outside interests. Which it clearly is. Look at players who's outside interests more "normal" things like making/producing music. Those guys are rarely seen by fans/media as totally committed to the field. (especially if your music of choice is rap or hip-hop)
There is also the problem of him not only being smart, but a smart black man. And, if you don't think the color of his skin matters you have blinders on.

Rosebud
03-27-2010, 09:47 PM
I think he is completely right. Gerhard's problem is more of an ingrained skepticism. As he said, they are not being intentionally discriminatory.

Myron Rolle's problem is not only that he is ridiculously smart and has outside interests. Which it clearly is. Look at players who's outside interests more "normal" things like making/producing music. Those guys are rarely seen by fans/media as totally committed to the field. (especially if your music of choice is rap or hip-hop)
There is also the problem of him not only being smart, but a smart black man. And, if you don't think the color of his skin matters you have blinders on.

If he were a good safety and completely dedicated to football the fact that he's a smart black man wouldn't matter.

keylime_5
03-27-2010, 09:52 PM
i think the point about coaches not liking players who are "smarter than them" is a stretch. It's one thing if they know more about math and science and philosophy.......it's another if they know more about football. Coaches won't be questioned by guys who have less experience with the game and don't know as much about football strategy..........DUH, SI is a bunch of dopes sometimes.


The point about Gerhart and Lynch is obvious though. It's not really without fault: when you see a white runningback it DEFINITELY reminds you of Mike Alstott or John Riggins b/c when you see a white guy running the ball who else is he gonna remind you of? Kammron Taylor reminds me of Chris Rock, but it ain't because he's funny

http://img8.imageshack.us/img8/1966/taylorkammronmbb0403aft.jpg

yourfavestoner
03-27-2010, 10:06 PM
http://nbcsportsmedia4.msnbc.com/j/NBCSports/Interactives%20and%20Slideshows/NBA/ss_090209_Rookie-Soph-game/0209_Brooks.widec.jpg

Aaron Brooks, their triplet brother.

J-Mike88
03-27-2010, 10:20 PM
I liked the fact that they actually mentioned the white thing. Do you expect to hear Fox or CBS or NBC to ever mention that about Toby?

I don't think they touch it with a 10 foot pole.

I'm glad Tucker mentioned the cornerback position too. I thought Jason Sehorn was the last one of his kind. I find the whole subject fascinating, but not as puzzling as so many media afraid to even touch it.

The Dude Abides
03-28-2010, 03:52 PM
If he were a good safety and completely dedicated to football the fact that he's a smart black man wouldn't matter.


I am not saying that I am an expert in American race relations. However, I did study History in college (admittedly, it's a minor, but the only thing you can really do with a history degree is teach and I ******* hate kids) and the part I studied the most thoroughly was the interaction of blacks and whites since reconstruction and Civil War. So I feel that I have a qualified enough opinion to tell you that if you do not think him being an intelligent, articulate black man has no bearing on the way some view him... you sir are hiding behind one massive pair of rose colored glasses.

BandwagonPunditry
03-28-2010, 04:10 PM
I like how that article also tries to portray smart safeties in the same category as white running backs. Being smart is not why Myron Rolle isn't going to be drafted high. That's insane.

To be honest I tend to think the opposite. Being smart and having good character are plus points for Rolle imo.

Bengalsrocket
03-28-2010, 05:10 PM
To be honest I tend to think the opposite. Being smart and having good character are plus points for Rolle imo.

If Myron Rolle wasn't as smart as he is, I don't think anyone would even mention his name. It may hurt him a little bit, but it's helped him as well.

SKim172
03-28-2010, 05:47 PM
The "smart" thing is a little more complex than the article makes it seem. If the coaches don't like someone smarter than them, then it's a subconscious thing - I would doubt they would scratch off a guy just because of that.

But there is a trend among draft scouts that believes it's possible to be "too smart" to be a good football player. I remember hearing a scout talking about a prospect some years ago, commenting that he seemed to overthink things and that he wouldn't be instinctive on the field. In other words, the idea is that a dumb brute will react immediately and commit entirely, while the smart guy might play down that instinct and hesitate.

That one's not as easy to push down. That's fairly prevalent thinking in sports, that it's all about reaction. I'd say that instinct and intelligence aren't mutually exclusive - you can have both. And that what we call instinct involves a lot of rapid thinking, not just conditioning. But I'm a university student - I'm obviously biased.

As for the white running back - that one's just tiresome. No coach is going to come out and say it, but the stereotype does exist, consciously or unconsciously, among some of the coaches and scouts in the NFL. And it will cloud opinions. It might be blatant - "White guys can't run" - but it might just be that a coach doesn't think Gerhart "looks" like how a running back should look. And skin color does factor into that.

And if you think about how many levels of this a kid might go through in his life, beginning from peewees, how many times the kid might face open or subconscious pressure to change his role on the team - just a little nudge each time and by the time he's in the NFL, he's not playing tailback anymore.

Encourage more little white kids to play tailback, you'll see more white feature backs in 10-20 years.

As for Gerhart, I don't doubt him because of his skin color. Three years to the contrary and I still believe Brian Leonard can be a feature back.

It'll happen, dammit.

PickedOffTwice
03-29-2010, 03:22 AM
Well, obivously both of these prejudices are subconscious or at least very, very private.

Nobody would EVER go on record and say something like "we don't want rolle because our coaches feel insecure about a Safety who is also a brain surgeon." or "A white Running Back? Please, everybody knows that white people can't run."

Imagine the sh**storm if somebody did, lol. That would be quite the show.

nhlkdog411
03-29-2010, 07:16 PM
Well, obivously both of these prejudices are subconscious or at least very, very private.

Nobody would EVER go on record and say something like "we don't want rolle because our coaches feel insecure about a Safety who is also a brain surgeon." or "A white Running Back? Please, everybody knows that white people can't run."

Imagine the sh**storm if somebody did, lol. That would be quite the show.

People have actually said stuff like this without any major repercussions...many people have.

YAYareaRB
03-29-2010, 07:35 PM
What about Mr. National Champ himself?

http://www.tigerrag.com/wp-content/uploads/dsc_0341_jones_villanova_lsu_09.jpg

underscore
03-30-2010, 05:32 AM
Look at players who's outside interests more "normal" things like making/producing music. Those guys are rarely seen by fans/media as totally committed to the field. (especially if your music of choice is rap or hip-hop)

You mean like who?

LizardState
03-30-2010, 12:24 PM
Not LOL funny, but hmmmmmmm funny.....

White RB stereotype = Black QB stereotype?

Case in point : With Donovan McNabb in the news now that he's trade bait again, we hear talking head comparisons to him with Vince Young & Michael Vick. Why not with Tony Romo or Peyton Manning? Oh, b/c they're "different types of QBs" ? Ummm, yeah. Like when Drew Brees turns black (as if by magic!) when he runs or Michael Vick turns white when he passes from the pocket.

Or why not compare McNabb with J.T. O'Sullivan, after all they both have Irish names?

Matthew Jones
03-30-2010, 07:15 PM
Awesome link - I'm going to use this on my NFL Draft research paper in Advanced Composition.

Crickett
03-30-2010, 07:19 PM
Cliffs anyone?

http://www.geography-site.co.uk/pages/physical/coastal/images/granite_cliff.jpg

PrimetimeTheDon
03-30-2010, 07:35 PM
Garbage.






.

BuffaloBillsFan
03-30-2010, 08:14 PM
There are some racist stereotypes, white people aren't athletic enough to play any of the skill positions and black people aren't smart enough to play QB. I'm not saying that this is true, just stating the obvious stereotypes that unfortunately exist in the football world.

RedVision
03-30-2010, 09:13 PM
You mean like who?

Notable piano players like Kwame Harris and Joey Harrington

RedVision
03-30-2010, 09:14 PM
4 Cowboys linemans also form a band, that's why their Oline is terrible.

(sarcasm)

The Dude Abides
03-31-2010, 08:08 AM
You mean like who?


I am speaking in terms more of rapper/basketball players and even Baron Davis with his film making.

Also, while we're at it there is a stereotype between rapping and your "notorious piano players" red vision. Same thing with the Dallas O-Line's rock band, Bronson Arroyo's and Bernie Williams' guitar, and the late great Waymon Tisdale's jazz. Those guys are met positively, while Iverson is apparently a bad guy, Ron Artest and Baron Davis are lazy and do not give their all, and other guys who have done a ****** rap cd (Shaq, Kobe, Deion Sanders, etc.) are "divas" and "goofs".


Second of all, I do not appreciate your tone. Treating me like some stupid new guy. My first permanent ban came years before you jackasses joined.

brasho
03-31-2010, 08:32 AM
I don't believe the people who doubt Gerhart can make it in the NFL are racist or prejudiced in any way. In talking with a number of coaches and scouts at many levels of football, I found the prevailing wisdom to be that it is more of a subconscious bias based upon simply not seeing it happen in a long time. ... It is only natural for people to be skeptical that Gerhart will bust a stereotype that has been building momentum for years.

__________________________________________________ _______


In the same article Tucker was talking about how smart he was and how he overcame it. Yet he clearly doesn't now what "prejudiced" means. Isn't that when somebody is "pre-judged"? Call me crazy, but saying somebody isn't prejudiced and then describing their behavior as what for all intents and purposes is prejudiced, just doesn't make sense. If only I had a Princeton education maybe I would understand.


On another note,, would anybody even know who Myron Rolle was if he hadn't been associated with the Rhodes Scholarship? How many safeties are we discussing that run their 40's in the 4.65-4.7 range and have only had one lifetime interception? Sure, big-time high school recruit is great and all, but it didn't come up very often when QBs Todd Ellis and Josh Booty were going undrafted, and neither did their names.

brasho
03-31-2010, 08:44 AM
This is all stupid- it should be determined if the guy can be a football player and that should be the end of discussion. No matter what color he is. Just because, off the top of my head, no QB that had the same first and last initials has every won a Super Bowl, does that mean we should look at that as a determining factor in whether to select a QB It's all freaking ridiculous-but unfortunately it exists.



As far as coaches not liking players that were smarter than them... that's total BS. I think most of us have been around enough coaches to know that most of them aren't geniuses. If this were the case players like Ryan Fitzpatrick, Gary Fencik, Jeff Kemp, Marcellus Wiley, Pat McInally (scored perfect on wonderlic) Calvin Hill and other Ivy-leaguers would have never gotten into the NFL and wouldn't have lasted. But the truth is, as smart as these guys were, few of them (Fencik, Hill) were truly geniused on the football field. Rob Johnson was supposedly a genius and had all of these superhuman mental abilities but he was a crappy player and that's why he didn't last in the NFL... not because he was smart.