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View Full Version : McCoy or Suh at #2


Rjspartan
04-01-2010, 01:04 PM
assume that st. louis chose bradford, would detroit select mccoy or suh and why. i think that cuz schwartz had haynesworth in tennessee he would rather have suh instead of mccoy, but what is ur opinion.

K Train
04-01-2010, 01:06 PM
Suh, hands down, sometimes i wonder why this is even a debate.

He will dominate in any scheme

bitonti
04-01-2010, 01:06 PM
i think the real question might be suh or okung... they need someone to watch staffords back...

in any case can't go wrong with suh. if the rams had brains he'd go 1.

LonghornsLegend
04-01-2010, 01:11 PM
Suh, hands down, sometimes i wonder why this is even a debate.

He will dominate in any scheme

Because alot of GM's, and schemes would prefer McCoy and it's 1A and 1B. It's not as cold cut and dry as some would make you believe here. Both are elite outstanding prospects, but there are some teams who would have McCoy rated higher.

K Train
04-01-2010, 01:14 PM
i just dont think that mccoy is THAT good. if you put suh on oklahomas defense the last few years i dont think this is even close who is better. obviously all speculation and im a little biased since i think of who i would want on the steelers i just couldnt come up with a reason to take mccoy over suh at this point in another scheme

bigfreak314
04-01-2010, 01:17 PM
I have to agree with longhorns legend, a lot of scouts feel that McCoy may be more NFL ready because he has more variety of pass rush moves and what not. Because Suh dominated so easily in the college level, he didnt need to have any counter moves for real so he might have to be coached up from that perspective and from the scheme he came from might not match every NFL teams because he wasnt allowed to just get after the QB, more so hold up blockers from the LBs

keylime_5
04-01-2010, 01:18 PM
I think most teams have McCoy rated just barely higher than Suh. Detroit with what they need and the fact that the two are just about even will take Suh. McCoy has the best pass rushing skills and that is something NFL teams hold in high regard.

K Train
04-01-2010, 01:21 PM
i mean i respect your guys opinions but i just dont see it, i understand suh was a man among boys in college and might need to work on some stuff as a pro but hes bigger, stronger, faster and isnt a dumb guy, coaches seem to really like the things he says and what hes willing to do

keylime_5
04-01-2010, 01:25 PM
in my personal opinion McCoy was slightly ahead of Suh after their 2008 seasons...but Suh had such a monster 2009 (should've won the heisman afterall) and McCoy just had a good 2009. I think Suh should be taken before McCoy but the NFL is a different place than the Big 12 I guess.

killxswitch
04-01-2010, 01:32 PM
So wait, McCoy is the better NFL prospect because Suh was so strong he didn't have to use good technique to get past college OLmen? What does that say about McCoy? That he wasn't strong enough for college linemen? What will he do against NFL linemen?

If McCoy has the advantage of technique, Suh has the advantage of strength and football athleticism. It isn't like Suh's technique is bad. Maybe McCoy's college technique will mess him up because the same things won't work against stronger, faster, smarter NFL OLmen.

I'm not saying I believe this. I think McCoy will do fine. I'm saying the argument that McCoy is a better NFL prospect because he had to find ways around his "lacking strength" is a bad argument.

bigfreak314
04-01-2010, 01:45 PM
I am by know means knocking Suh just throwing a different prospective on how different teams/scouts view each player. Mark Schlererth said it best, in the NFL OGs are going to hold on every play so he will not be able to dominate as easily which is where the transitioning process and coaching kicks in. His work ethic is pretty good so I don't think it will be a problem very long.

FlyingElvis
04-01-2010, 01:49 PM
Okung.


But at 3 I say Suh. I believe they are close enough that it won't shock me to see McCoy go ahead of Suh but I still think Suh is the pick. To Tampa Bay, that is.

TACKLE
04-01-2010, 01:58 PM
Personally, I prefer McCoy. I love his explosiveness and his strength and power are underrated. Suh is still Suh but I have some questions with how his game will translate to the next level. I'm still not sure how he will anchor against big physical guards. He tends to play a little high and relies to much on his upper body. This may very well of been because his job was to be a two-gap DT but I still have a few more questions about Suh than I do about McCoy.

With that being said, I still think it will be Suh at #2.

BaLLiN
04-01-2010, 02:23 PM
Okung.


But at 3 I say Suh. I believe they are close enough that it won't shock me to see McCoy go ahead of Suh but I still think Suh is the pick. To Tampa Bay, that is.

I think this, something just tells me that McCoy is a tad overhyped

Splat
04-01-2010, 02:28 PM
A boy named Suh.

Paranoidmoonduck
04-01-2010, 02:40 PM
There's a little talk that McCoy is perhaps a little overhyped at the moment and could even go outside of the top 5 (although I'd imagine his floor would have to be Seattle at 6). At any rate, I think Detroit is likely deciding between Suh and Okung at this point.

FlyingElvis
04-01-2010, 02:40 PM
I think this, something just tells me that McCoy is a tad overhyped

Yup. Even if we assume the rumors were all true about most teams rated McCoy higher - or even as 1a & 1b - Suh had to bump his stock at the combine. All the GMs & FO guys basically say the same thing: If you've got two prospects that are relatively equal based on tape then the combine / workouts can be the tie-breaker. There's no way in hell the combine tie-breaker wasn't Suh by a big margin.

K Train
04-01-2010, 02:48 PM
Personally, I prefer McCoy. I love his explosiveness and his strength and power are underrated. Suh is still Suh but I have some questions with how his game will translate to the next level. I'm still not sure how he will anchor against big physical guards. He tends to play a little high and relies to much on his upper body. This may very well of been because his job was to be a two-gap DT but I still have a few more questions about Suh than I do about McCoy.

With that being said, I still think it will be Suh at #2.

if mccoy had that kind of strength he would rely on it too....mccoy also kind of has chicken legs for a DT, his overall strength just isnt that good (compared to suh at the very least) he does have a first step/explosive advantage on suh, but its not enough imo

LonghornsLegend
04-01-2010, 02:53 PM
Yup. Even if we assume the rumors were all true about most teams rated McCoy higher - or even as 1a & 1b - Suh had to bump his stock at the combine. All the GMs & FO guys basically say the same thing: If you've got two prospects that are relatively equal based on tape then the combine / workouts can be the tie-breaker. There's no way in hell the combine tie-breaker wasn't Suh by a big margin.

This was after the combine:


According to CBS' Charley Casserly, the consensus at the Combine was that Gerald McCoy is a slightly better prospect than Ndamukong Suh.
Suh had more college production in a read-and-react scheme and easily had a better Combine, but NFL evaluators apparently still think McCoy offers more upside. "It's a little more McCoy 1A and Suh 1B," said Casserly. "I ask two questions: Who's the better athlete and who's the better pass rusher? McCoy comes up more often than not as the yes guy there."
Source: St. Louis Post-Dispatch

contento
04-01-2010, 02:53 PM
McCoy has better NFL-caliber pass rush moves...but oh wait, somehow those pass rush moves didn't work against college opponents as well as Suh's did? what gives?


Suh is the #2 pick, I'd write it in stone if I had a chisel(and a stone).

BaLLiN
04-01-2010, 02:54 PM
There's a little talk that McCoy is perhaps a little overhyped at the moment and could even go outside of the top 5 (although I'd imagine his floor would have to be Seattle at 6). At any rate, I think Detroit is likely deciding between Suh and Okung at this point.

I think this, something just tells me that McCoy is a tad overhyped

wow i can see the future. But i disagree with Seattle. IF the first three picks should go:

1. Bradford
2. Russell
3. Suh

then McCoy could drop to the Bills. There are 4 straight 3-4 teams (McCoy is not fit to play DE in a 3-4 at all IMO) and then Oak and Buffalo who both have larger problems on offense.

Rumors about bradford to STL dont convince me but, if i roll with it then there is a legitimate possiblity McCoy drops close to 10.

Halsey
04-01-2010, 02:56 PM
Suh, because he got a lot of media attention, had a big game in the Big 12 Championship and was a Heisman candidate, therefore he must be a better prospect. ;)

BaLLiN
04-01-2010, 02:58 PM
This was after the combine:

What i dont get is how they dont consider the fact that Nebraska's defense was far less talented than Oklahoma's and essentially Suh generated all his production without much help as well as without the greatest technique. With a year under a good DL coach, i dont see how Suh isnt the better player.

Paranoidmoonduck
04-01-2010, 02:59 PM
wow i can see the future. But i disagree with Seattle. IF the first three picks should go:

1. Bradford
2. Russell
3. Suh

then McCoy could drop to the Bills. There are 4 straight 3-4 teams (McCoy is not fit to play DE in a 3-4 at all IMO) and then Oak and Buffalo who both have larger problems on offense.

Rumors about bradford to STL dont convince me but, if i roll with it then there is a legitimate possiblity McCoy drops close to 10.

I had never heard anything definitive on Seattle switching to an exclusive 3-man front and I think McCoy would do fine playing from the 5-tech position were he asked. I'm not really one of the guys who thinks McCoy only fits at playing a strict undertackle position. His versatility isn't recognized very often.

edit - I totally disagree about Nebraska's defense being less talented or worse around Suh than McCoy had at Oklahoma. Go back and see exactly how many of Suh's sacks were hugely aided by great coverage by his teammates.

TACKLE
04-01-2010, 02:59 PM
if mccoy had that kind of strength he would rely on it too....mccoy also kind of has chicken legs for a DT, his overall strength just isnt that good (compared to suh at the very least) he does have a first step/explosive advantage on suh, but its not enough imo

Chicken legs? Have you ever seen Gerald McCoy? His thighs are huge. You say his overall strength isn't that good compared to Suh but McCoy clearly has a stronger lower body which allows him to not only be more explosive but also to anchor better. Personally, knowing most of your power comes from your legs and your glutes, I'll take a DT with a stronger lower body over a DT with a stronger upper body. But that's just me.

K Train
04-01-2010, 03:12 PM
Chicken legs? Have you ever seen Gerald McCoy? His thighs are huge. You say his overall strength isn't that good compared to Suh but McCoy clearly has a stronger lower body which allows him to not only be more explosive but also to anchor better. Personally, knowing most of your power comes from your legs and your glutes, I'll take a DT with a stronger lower body over a DT with a stronger upper body. But that's just me.

my bad, got them a little confused with the legs...ive seen alot more of suh than mccoy and suh just overpowers everyone one way or another whether its his upper body or just driving right through them...nothing real technical about his game he just bullies the opponent

Babylon
04-01-2010, 03:12 PM
I'd draft Suh and play him at a 3-4 DE like Richard Seymour. To me you want to move him around like a Reggie White was moved to stay away from game planned double teams. Either way the Lions cant go wrong there unless they take a much lower rated player that happens to play OT.

K Train
04-01-2010, 03:17 PM
i think he has 34 end superstar ability which is so rare and then down the road NT ability

Prowler
04-01-2010, 03:20 PM
coaches would probably say suh, management would probably lean okung. i'm about 50% sure that we're trading down though. whether its bradford not going #1, a team falling for clausen, or a team wanting suh, there is at least 1 offer already out there for detroit. whether its the browns, bills, or some random team, this should be a trade down. i personally wouldn't trade up if i were a different team, but it only takes 1 offer. plus we probably aren't demanding a lot for the pick.

TACKLE
04-01-2010, 03:34 PM
my bad, got them a little confused with the legs...ive seen alot more of suh than mccoy and suh just overpowers everyone one way or another whether its his upper body or just driving right through them...nothing real technical about his game he just bullies the opponent

I'm not tying to knock Suh at all. Just trying to make my case for why I prefer McCoy.

Boston
04-01-2010, 03:39 PM
I have to agree with longhorns legend, a lot of scouts feel that McCoy may be more NFL ready because he has more variety of pass rush moves and what not. Because Suh dominated so easily in the college level, he didnt need to have any counter moves for real so he might have to be coached up from that perspective and from the scheme he came from might not match every NFL teams because he wasnt allowed to just get after the QB, more so hold up blockers from the LBs

Really not a good way to choose McCoy...

bigfreak314
04-01-2010, 03:52 PM
Really not a good way to choose McCoy...

Tell that to the GMs/NFL Scouts

contento
04-01-2010, 05:33 PM
Chicken legs? Have you ever seen Gerald McCoy? His thighs are huge.



Truth.


"Chicken legs" is not the way I'd describe McCoy

http://a.espncdn.com/photo/2010/0330/ncf_g_mccoy02_200.jpg

Clarkw267
04-01-2010, 05:39 PM
After the combine I think Suh moved ahead of McCoy if he wasn't ahead already. The 40s were almost identical, but more importantly Suh looked better in the on field drills. Not good for McCoy who was supposed to be the better athlete.

stephenson86
04-01-2010, 05:42 PM
Okung I would think

BaLLiN
04-01-2010, 08:25 PM
After the combine I think Suh moved ahead of McCoy if he wasn't ahead already. The 40s were almost identical, but more importantly Suh looked better in the on field drills. Not good for McCoy who was supposed to be the better athlete.

you make a valid point, nice contribution

the_dark_knight
04-01-2010, 08:39 PM
Personally I much prefer Suh's build and abilities on the football field, but as a leader in the clubhouse, and an elite prospect it would be hard to pass on McCoy. He's got such a great personality to go along with his ability, and the guy has the drive to make it. I feel bad for whoever goes to Detroit, because either one of the DTs would just come into a terrible situation. Okung on the other hand, well, if he could keep Stafford from getting pressured, then that could really help the Lions turn the corner.

the_dark_knight
04-01-2010, 08:41 PM
Truth.


"Chicken legs" is not the way I'd describe McCoy

http://a.espncdn.com/photo/2010/0330/ncf_g_mccoy02_200.jpg

I think he's more focused on the ankles, which do seem pretty small for such a massive dude, could they be a weak point? Sure, but would I worry about it? Nah.

Saints-Tigers
04-02-2010, 12:48 AM
McCoy is an elite prospect. Suh is a lot better.

Clarkw267
04-02-2010, 01:04 AM
I had never heard anything definitive on Seattle switching to an exclusive 3-man front and I think McCoy would do fine playing from the 5-tech position were he asked. I'm not really one of the guys who thinks McCoy only fits at playing a strict undertackle position. His versatility isn't recognized very often.

edit - I totally disagree about Nebraska's defense being less talented or worse around Suh than McCoy had at Oklahoma. Go back and see exactly how many of Suh's sacks were hugely aided by great coverage by his teammates.

It's not an unbelievable disparity in talent, but OU had more talented athletes on defense.. that's not even a question IMO. Now Pelini is a much better defensive coach, so he got more out of his talent than the OU staff did.

Personally I think Stoops is a mediocre coach and developer of talent.