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View Full Version : Gerald McCoy Is So Overrated !!!


V.I.P
04-01-2010, 03:10 PM
You've probably read a lot of my posts referring to McCoy as a bust waiting to happen or how he's not worth the 3rd overall pick imo. He's coming out as a junior, which I won't hold against him, after having the same type of year he did as a sophomore. In my opinion a lot of draftnicks got on his bandwagon early and now feel forced to stay on his bandwagon. In his case he really didn't do anything statistically, which I will show, to warrant a top 5 pick. I thought I would take the time to show you why I feel this way. This will probably be a pretty long read and comparison. Feel free to add your own information....

http://s3.amazonaws.com/newsok-photos/788045/medium.jpg

First off he just doesn't seem like he's big enough. Yeah, he's 6'4 295 but he's just got such a small upper body. He's legs are huge but his upper body is weak. Just compare him to a young Sapp here in this photo....

http://www.profootballhof.com/images/content/photos/1995sapp.jpg

Next I've talked about him being really poor against the run. Teams know they can run right at him or throw screens at him because all he does is penetrate. Lets look at some stats from Oklahoma's games this year....

BYU-28 yards rushing
Idaho-State -28 yards rushing
Tulsa-116 yards rushing
Miami-140 yards rushing
Baylor-6 yards rushing
Texas=142 yards rushing
Kansas-81 yards rushing
Kansas State-149 yards rushing
Nebraska-141 yards rushing
Texas A&M-59 yards rushing
Texas Tech-161 yards rushing
Oklahoma State-62 yards rushing
Stanford-145 yards rushing

In 7 out of 13 games they gave up over 100 yards. In most it was either over 140 ypg or close to it. The teams that didn't rush for over 100 yards against them were mostly scrub teams. In the draftlab series on him they said that in 19 of 52 runs right at him the opponent gained 4 yards or more. In 10 of the 52 runs the opponent gained 10 yards or more. He is very susceptible to draws, screens, traps and counters.

As a matter of fact most scouts say he will not be able to play in any type of 3-4 defense. He wouldn't even make a good end in a 3-4. They also say that he will most likely only be effective in a 4-3 as a one gap pass rusher. I also question why he doesn't have better stats. One site said that he was used to take up 2 blockers so that his linebackers and other lineman can make the play. Wasn't it many of you last year that said that Ron Brace wasn't worth the #19 pick because all he did was eat up blockers on the #1 run defense in the country?

So now lets look at some stats of 4-3 DTs just to show you the difference and why he's not worth the #3 pick....

Gerald McCoy 6'4 295 (Junior) Age 21
2009-32 TT 25 Solo 7 Assists 6 Sacks
2008-26 TT 13 Solo 13 Assists 6 Sacks 1 INT
2007-19 TT 9 Solo 10 Assists 2 Sacks

Ndamukong Suh 6'4 300 (Senior) Age 23
2009-82 TT 37 Solo 45 Assists 12 Sacks 1 INT
2008-76 TT 39 Solo 37 Assists 7 Sacks 2 INTs 2 TDs
2007--34 TT 20 Solo 14 Assists 1 Sack
2006-19 TT 12 Solo 7 Assists 3 Sacks 1 INT
2005-1 TT 1 Assist

Brian Price 6'2 300 (Junior) Age 20
2009-43 TT 36 Solo 7 Assists 7 Sacks 1 FF
2008-35 TT 25 Solo 10 Assists 4 Sacks 1 FF 1 INT
2007-14 TT 9 Solo 5 Assists 1 Sacks 2 FF

Dan Williams 6'3 327 (Senior) Age 22
2009-62 TT 30 Solo 32 Assists 2 Sacks
2008-49 TT 23 Solo 26 Assists 1 Sack
2007-40 TT 15 Solo 25 Assists 2 Sacks
2006-2 TT 1 Solo 1 Assist 1 Sack

Jared Odrick 6'5 306 (Senior) Age 22
2009-43 TT 17 Solo 26 Assists 7 Sacks
2008-41 TT 19 Solo 22 Assists 4 Sacks
2007-16 TT 8 Solo 8 Assists 2 Sacks
2006-4 TT 3 Solo 1 Assist 1 Sack

Lamarr Houston 6'2 300 (Senior) Age 22
2009-57 TT 38 Solo 19 Assists 7 Sacks
2008-23 TT 16 Solo 7 Assists 1 Sack
2007-45 TT 24 Solo 21 Assists 4 Sacks
2006-8 TT 4 Solo 4 Assists 1 Sack

Do you see where I am going with this? Look at his tape. Look at his stats. Look at his size and build. Why is everyone so caught up in this Gerald McCoy hype. What exactly has he done to deserve to even be considered a top 15 pick?

TheSlinger
04-01-2010, 03:11 PM
April Fools!

vikes_28
04-01-2010, 03:24 PM
are you being serious?

P-L
04-01-2010, 03:29 PM
I think you are underrating some of the statistics here just to try and work with your argument.

First of all, Oklahoma was 7th in the entire country in rush defense. Giving up 100 yards per game on the ground is not a big deal. Only 12 of the 120 teams gave up less than 100 yards per game. Oklahoma gave up 88 yards per game on the ground and only 2.7 yards per carry (5th in the nation). Since we are equating team success to individual success, I must point out that Nebraska gave up 96 yards per game and 2.8 yards per carry while UCLA gave up 144 yards per game and 4.1 yards per carry and Tennessee gave up 142 yards per game and 4.2 yards per carry. Oklahoma had the best run defense of that group.

Next, you say that 19 of the 52 runs against McCoy went for four or more yards. That means that about 65% of the time he stopped the runner for a 3 yard gain or less. Is that elite? No, but it doesn't make him a liability either. The 10/52 for over ten yards is irrelevant. Once a runner gets those initial five yards and passes the defensive line, it is the linebackers and defensive backs' job to keep the runner from a big play. It's not McCoy's responsibility to chase down the runner ten or more yards downfield.

He isn't the run stopper that Suh is, but he isn't the liability that you are trying to make him out to be either.

TACKLE
04-01-2010, 03:32 PM
April Fools!

I ******* hope so.

vidae
04-01-2010, 03:35 PM
http://cdn.ksk.uproxx.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/04/omg-cat.gif

villagewarrior
04-01-2010, 03:37 PM
Interesting that against Oklahoma State with arguably the best offensive lineman in the draft they held in check. The statistics illustrated don't really translate well, I don't think. Lets talk about tackles for loss.

V.I.P
04-01-2010, 03:40 PM
I think you are underrating some of the statistics here just to try and work with your argument.

First of all, Oklahoma was 7th in the entire country in rush defense. Giving up 100 yards per game on the ground is not a big deal. Only 12 of the 120 teams gave up less than 100 yards per game. Oklahoma gave up 88 yards per game on the ground and only 2.7 yards per carry (5th in the nation). Since we are equating team success to individual success, I must point out that Nebraska gave up 96 yards per game and 2.8 yards per carry while UCLA gave up 144 yards per game and 4.1 yards per carry and Tennessee gave up 142 yards per game and 4.2 yards per carry. Oklahoma had the best run defense of that group.

Next, you say that 19 of the 52 runs against McCoy went for four or more yards. That means that about 65% of the time he stopped the runner for a 3 yard gain or less. Is that elite? No, but it doesn't make him a liability either. The 10/52 for over ten yards is irrelevant. Once a runner gets those initial five yards and passes the defensive line, it is the linebackers and defensive backs' job to keep the runner from a big play. It's not McCoy's responsibility to chase down the runner ten or more yards downfield.

He isn't the run stopper that Suh is, but he isn't the liability that you are trying to make him out to be either.

:eek: You win PL.... :mad:

V.I.P
04-01-2010, 03:40 PM
Interesting that against Oklahoma State with arguably the best offensive lineman in the draft they held in check. The statistics illustrated don't really translate well, I don't think. Lets talk about tackles for loss.

Gerald McCoy
15.5 TFL 2 passes broken up 12 QB hurries 1 FF 0 kicks/punts blocked

Ndamukong Suh
20.5 TFL 10 passes broken up 19 QB hurries 1 FF 3 kicks/punts blocked

Brian Price
23.5 TFL 1 pass broken up 1 QB hurry 2 FF 0 kicks/punts blocked

Dan Williams
9 TFL 0 passes broken up 0 QB hurries 0 FF 0 kicks/punts blocked

Jared Odrick
11 TFL 1 pass broken up 4 QB hurries 0 FF 1 kick/punt blocked

Lamarr Houston
16.5 TFL 4 passes broken up 10 QB hurries 0 FF 0 kicks/punts blocked

Tyson Alualu
10.5 TFL 4 passes broken up 1 QB hurry 1 FF 0 Kicks/punts blocked

Looks like other than Suh Houston offers the best value. As stated many times if we're talking about a guy who we are thinking of taking #3 overall shouldn't he be far and above better at something than a guy we are talking about taking in the late 2nd/early 3rd?

vikes_28
04-01-2010, 03:41 PM
oh btw vip, i meant to neg rep you. damnit.

CC.SD
04-01-2010, 03:42 PM
Wow I entirely disagree, but honestly if you're willing to actually look up stats and at least try to defend your opinion that is admirable. You might want to see a doctor though. Team stats do not fall on one single player, they are team stats. Production is system related.

Morton
04-01-2010, 03:43 PM
I seriously think that any team that has a chance to grab Suh would be absolutely foolish to pick McCoy instead.

Don't get me wrong, McCoy could easily be a solid player in the NFL, but Suh is just too special to pass up, and it's not even a contest between the two.

Halsey
04-01-2010, 03:47 PM
This thread comes across as "I'm a Tampa fan who really wants the bigger name, Suh, so I've convinced myself that McCoy is overrated". You don't have to talk down one player just because you like another. Suh's feelings won't be hurt if you like McCoy too.

V.I.P
04-01-2010, 03:47 PM
Wow I entirely disagree, but honestly if you're willing to actually look up stats and at least try to defend your opinion that is admirable.

P-L obviously had me beaten, and i suck at debating.

This thread comes across as "I'm a Tampa fan who really wants the bigger name, Suh, so I've convinced myself that McCoy is overrated". You don't have to talk down one player just because you like another. Suh's feelings won't be hurt if you like McCoy too.

How is Suh the bigger name? McCoy is a 5 letter word.

djp
04-01-2010, 03:48 PM
If you watch the tape of McCoy versus Miami, you'll see a disruptive force that was consistently getting into the backfield. Miami ran a lot of stretch plays away from McCoy and lots of misdirections to try to neutralize him. He was easily OU's best defensive player in that game.

TACKLE
04-01-2010, 03:51 PM
If you watch the tape of McCoy versus Miami, you'll see a disruptive force that was consistently getting into the backfield. Miami ran a lot of stretch plays away from McCoy and lots of misdirections to try to neutralize him. He was easily OU's best defensive player in that game.

I remember people were trying to say he had a bad game because he didn't put up the stats. He was great that game and was in the backfield and in Jacory's face all day despite facing constant double teams.

Scott Wright
04-01-2010, 04:01 PM
You can't use statistics to make this argument. Fatally flawed.

ThePudge
04-01-2010, 04:03 PM
I like how some people forget that McCoy is a three year starter... National Freshman of the Year, Big XII Player of the Year/Defensive MVP of the National Championship, Second-Team All-American two years in a row. Suh was better than McCoy one year in a very different defense in the same conference.

Search youtube for Gerald McCoy highlights, grab a beer/kool-aid/milk (whatever it is you want to drink) and put in the 6-8 minutes to watch #93. You'll like him much more than you would looking at purely statistics.

BaLLiN
04-01-2010, 04:05 PM
You can't use statistics to make this argument. Fatally flawed.

SW laying down the hammer

http://toomawashi.files.wordpress.com/2009/05/stop-hammer-time.jpg

think he is a tad overrated, but the only reason for a drop IMO would be due to the number of 3-4 teams in the top 10

contento
04-01-2010, 04:08 PM
You can't use statistics to make this argument. Fatally flawed.



If the major difference between Suh and McCoy is "NFL caliber pass rush moves" (according to Mayock) then why won't it show up in the stats?

Both DT's saw significant double-teams and Offenses scheming against them, so why did Suh's bull rush work so much more effectively than McCoy's repertoire of moves?


Stats don't make the argument, but they should provide some insight.

Scott Wright
04-01-2010, 04:18 PM
If the major difference between Suh and McCoy is "NFL caliber pass rush moves" (according to Mayock) then why won't it show up in the stats?

Both DT's saw significant double-teams and Offenses scheming against them, so why did Suh's bull rush work so much more effectively than McCoy's repertoire of moves?


Stats don't make the argument, but they should provide some insight.

Are you factoring in the number of reps? Because it's widely known that the Sooners rotate their defensive linemen heavily. What were his assignments in the defensive scheme? Also, Tim Tebow threw for more career touchdowns than Eli Manning in the same conference. Does that make him a superior pro prospect?

I think you can legitimately make a case for why Ndamukong Suh is a better prospect than Gerald McCoy or vise versa but doing so with stats is a flawed appraoch.

stephenson86
04-01-2010, 04:27 PM
IMO McCoy is more 1D than Suh because I think he is a pure UT where Suh could play NT or UT IMO. However I think McCoy is better at what he does than Suh, stats or not. Which is why I rate him higher, team him with a good NT and you are looking at a scary guy.

stephenson86
04-01-2010, 04:32 PM
and also SEVERE lol at you comparing pictures of players to make your point as well, man that is hilarious. Suh looks nothing like Albert Haynesworth and therefore will be rubbish.

contento
04-01-2010, 04:34 PM
Are you factoring in the number of reps? Because it's widely known that the Sooners rotate their defensive linemen heavily. What were his assignments in the defensive scheme? Also, Tim Tebow threw for more career touchdowns than Eli Manning in the same conference. Does that make him a superior pro prospect?

I think you can legitimately make a case for why Ndamukong Suh is a better prospect than Gerald McCoy or vise versa but doing so with stats is a flawed appraoch.


I'm not factoring in reps, but let's say McCoy only played 75% of his teams defensive snaps(edit- and reps are a stat as well)...I'll lower Suh's numbers by 25% and he still outperforms McCoy-

64 Tackles, 18 TFL's, 9 sacks

And I wouldn't look at being in a rotation as anything but a negative for McCoy- at least in relation to Suh- give me the guy that's proven he can stay in the game from start to finish all season long.

You probably have the film, how did McCoy and Suh's overall snap count differ against their common opponent, Texas? I think that would be relevant.


I don't know their assignments obviously(outside of broad scheme assignments) and honestly nobody else does either other than their coaches. You can't look at film and make a 100% accurate diagnosis on what their job was on that play, but I think it's safe to assume that McCoy and Suh had very similar assignments as freakishly-athletic Under Tackles.

V.I.P
04-01-2010, 04:34 PM
IMO McCoy is more 1D than Suh because I think he is a pure UT where Suh could play NT or UT IMO. However I think McCoy is better at what he does than Suh, stats or not. Which is why I rate him higher, team him with a good NT and you are looking at a scary guy.

I still don't understand how McCoy is a better pass rusher when Suh had double the amount of sacks he had. Ooops sorry forgot i can't use stats. :rolleyes:

stephenson86
04-01-2010, 04:36 PM
I still don't understand how McCoy is a better pass rusher when Suh had double the amount of sacks he had. Ooops sorry forgot i can't use stats. :rolleyes:

Ok so whats better sacking the QB or rushing him into throwing an interception. ZOMGZ i forgot sacks are the most important stat in the world.

FUNBUNCHER
04-01-2010, 05:08 PM
oh btw vip, i meant to neg rep you. damnit.

Neg rep V-I-P for what? Because you disagree with him??
That ain't right.:confused:

I agree, I think McCoy is very overrated and in no way should he be considered a top 5 pick.
For some reason early on, folks were looking for another DT to compare to Suh, ( there isn't one!!) and McCoy was chosen to be that guy.

Same conference, similar size, high profile teams. As far as I can tell, because McCoy looks 'quicker' off the snap than Suh, ( not to me), suddenly there was a buzz that McCoy was this elite talent.

If Suh played for OU he would have had 20 sacks last year. If he was allowed to blow past his man upfield and beeline for the QB or ballcarrier, his stats would have been even more ungodly.
If McCoy played in Pelini's read/react system that requires a DT to have incredible discipline, play awareness, strength to hold his position, then pursue to the ball, his numbers in 2009 would have been more modest.

For a top 5 pick at DT, when you put on their game film, there should be several 'wow' moments. This happened for me for the first time watching Suh play Va Tech. He just beasted the Hokies Oline, and no blocking scheme could keep him out of the action.

I never saw a game from McCoy against elite competition where he was clearly the best player on the field on either team.

He's a solid top 15 prospect IMO, but all this talk of him potentially being the #2 pick off the board is ridiculous.

IMO I don't know if McCoy will ever be a star in the pros, I think he's just a guy who's a solid starter who occasionally makes the pro bowl.

Me Likey Rookies
04-01-2010, 05:19 PM
I never saw a game from McCoy against elite competition where he was clearly the best player on the field on either team.



kY4eWD39PeA&feature=related

would texas be elite competition?

FUNBUNCHER
04-01-2010, 05:23 PM
I guess that was an okay game for McCoy, but consider what Suh did to the same Texas team in the Big 12 championship.

Suh raped the Longhorns. By comparison, McCoy barely got to first base.

Point being, if Suh is considered a top 3 prospect, McCoy at best is top 10, not a top 3 or 4 overall prospect also.

EDIT: Colt McCoy was still the best player in that game, not Gerald.

Me Likey Rookies
04-01-2010, 05:34 PM
Well what Suh did to Texas was just universe-shattering. It was the greatest DT performance of all time (?). McCoy had about as good a game as a DT could have without the universe breaking.

ThePudge
04-01-2010, 05:42 PM
Neg rep V-I-P for what? Because you disagree with him??
That ain't right.:confused:

I agree, I think McCoy is very overrated and in no way should he be considered a top 5 pick.
For some reason early on, folks were looking for another DT to compare to Suh, ( there isn't one!!) and McCoy was chosen to be that guy.

Same conference, similar size, high profile teams. As far as I can tell, because McCoy looks 'quicker' off the snap than Suh, ( not to me), suddenly there was a buzz that McCoy was this elite talent.

If Suh played for OU he would have had 20 sacks last year. If he was allowed to blow past his man upfield and beeline for the QB or ballcarrier, his stats would have been even more ungodly.
If McCoy played in Pelini's read/react system that requires a DT to have incredible discipline, play awareness, strength to hold his position, then pursue to the ball, his numbers in 2009 who have been more modest.

For a top 5 pick at DT, when you put on their game film, there should be several 'wow' moments. This happened for me for the first time watching Suh play Va Tech. He just beasted the Hokies Oline, and no blocking scheme could keep him out of the action.

I never saw a game from McCoy against elite competition where he was clearly the best player on the field on either team.

He's a solid top 15 prospect IMO, but all this talk of him potentially being the #2 pick off the board is ridiculous.

IMO I don't McCoy will ever be a star in the pros, just a guy who's a solid starter who occasionally makes the pro bowl.

FUNBUNCHER, you're a solid poster but this post is just some ********. Continue to neglect that Gerald McCoy was the best defensive player in Suh's conference as a SOPHOMORE. He was also good enough to be the National Freshman of the year & a Two-Time All-American. If you can't see that McCoy isn't quicker to penetrate then you're neglecting the game film. You're a sucker for statistics and that just doesn't tell the story here. If anyone has trouble seeing why McCoy is a Top 3-5 talent check the Texas & Florida games. With no injury history, experience at every position on the DL, & a game that translates perfectly to the NFL 3-Tech (but also very well to the 5-Tech) he's going to make a team very happy as a Top 5 pick.

McCoy's impact was felt on a more consistent basis in college, his defense had him lining up all over the place slanting & stunting (which isn't statistic friendly), and he DEFINITELY has had that star aspect in him against top competition.

Suh was the one who rose from a potential Top 20 -> Top 3 pick overnight, McCoy would have been a Top 5 pick last year. Amazing how many people make it seem like this is their first year watching college football.

stephenson86
04-01-2010, 05:46 PM
when pudge speaks i get a warm feeling inside

RaiderNation
04-01-2010, 05:50 PM
Hopefully more GMs start thinking like you so he drops to the Raiders

Scott Wright
04-01-2010, 05:54 PM
I never saw a game from McCoy against elite competition where he was clearly the best player on the field on either team.

Oh my...

Watch the 2008 BCS Championship game against Florida. McCoy was DOMINANT.

bengalbuck
04-01-2010, 05:56 PM
FUNBUNCHER, you're a solid poster but this post is just some ********. Continue to neglect that Gerald McCoy was the best defensive player in Suh's conference as a SOPHOMORE. He was also good enough to be the National Freshman of the year & a Two-Time All-American. If you can't see that McCoy isn't quicker to penetrate then you're neglecting the game film. You're a sucker for statistics and that just doesn't tell the story here. If anyone has trouble seeing why McCoy is a Top 3-5 talent check the Texas & Florida games. With no injury history, experience at every position on the DL, & a game that translates perfectly to the NFL 3-Tech (but also very well to the 5-Tech) he's going to make a team very happy as a Top 5 pick.

McCoy's impact was felt on a more consistent basis in college, his defense had him lining up all over the place slanting & stunting (which isn't statistic friendly), and he DEFINITELY has had that star aspect in him against top competition.

Suh was the one who rose from a potential Top 20 -> Top 3 pick overnight, McCoy would have been a Top 5 pick last year. Amazing how many people make it seem like this is their first year watching college football.

I think it is legitimate to ask about his numbers. If he only had 6 sacks in college, how can anyone feel comfortable predicting that he's going to put up big sack numbers in the NFL? If he can't put up more than 6 sacks per year in the NFL, is he really worth the #3 pick?

Also, and no offense b/c you're one of my favorite posters here, I think using college awards is a bit bogus. Those are based so much on general reputation and other factors that I think they are pretty much irrelevant to any prospect evaluation. I mean, how have Heisman trophy winners (the biggest award there is) fared in the NFL?

TheSlinger
04-01-2010, 06:06 PM
I TOLD you you should've gone with "April fools!"

jnew76
04-01-2010, 06:28 PM
McCoy's tremendous lower body strength and quickness is incredible and undeniable. I am concerned about his upper body strength and his ability to shed blockers once engaged with an NFL guard.

Do I think McCoy is overrated, slightly... I think his narrow shoulders and lack of upper body bulk might hinder his ability and strength at the point of attack.

I still believe McCoy is top 10 worthy, but I am not convinced he is worth a top 5 pick.

swngtrdr
04-01-2010, 06:30 PM
Former Buc Warren Sapp chimed in on McCoy's behalf recently, when a post on Sapp's Twitter page read: " Take McCoy! Ain't no bench press on the any yd line! Feet beat weights everyday & twice on Sunday!! "

Scott Wright
04-01-2010, 06:30 PM
I think it is legitimate to ask about his numbers. If he only had 6 sacks in college, how can anyone feel comfortable predicting that he's going to put up big sack numbers in the NFL? If he can't put up more than 6 sacks per year in the NFL, is he really worth the #3 pick.

Keep in mind that defensive tackles don't usually rack up double-digit sacks. I believe the NFL leader in sacks by a defensive tackle in 2009 had 7.0 total. There is nothing wrong with McCoy's 6.5 and 6.0 sacks the past two seasons. Do you like Kevin Williams, who is as good of a pass rushing defensive tackle as there is in the league? Well, he had 7.0 sacks his final season in college. Must be a bum. Everyone should be be very careful not to jump to snap conclusions about prospects based on glancing at a stat line. Very dangerous stuff.

stephenson86
04-01-2010, 06:31 PM
scott, doing what he does best, preaching gospel

FUNBUNCHER
04-01-2010, 06:40 PM
The only one to one comparison I can make between Suh and McCoy is their play against Texas in 2009; the difference in impact each had in their respective games against UT is the difference I see between both players.

I'll just have to see McCoy become a stud in the NFL before I believe he'll be one. And I'll have to see McCoy get picked before Suh before I really think NFL GMs have McCoy rated as the best pro prospect between the two.

JFLO
04-01-2010, 07:24 PM
Wasn't McCoy double teamed about 70% of last season? Not to mention the fact that he still penetrated the opposing pocket maybe better than any defensive tackle in the nation.

Malaka
04-01-2010, 07:29 PM
Wasn't McCoy double teamed about 70% of last season? Not to mention the fact that he still penetrated the opposing pocket maybe better than any defensive tackle in the nation.

You honestly don't think Suh was doubled teamed that much if not more?

JFLO
04-01-2010, 07:34 PM
You honestly don't think Suh was doubled teamed that much if not more?

Just as much ;)

That's why I'm really (jumping the gun here) iffy on Jared Crick as a draft prospect.

BaLLiN
04-01-2010, 07:41 PM
Scott, is Gerald McCoy a prospect for a 3-4 DE spot? IMO he's not, it would not only be a waste of his passrushing talent, it would play to his weaknesses, one being upperbody strength in order to maintain a gap

cotts1
04-01-2010, 07:43 PM
I also think McCoy could end up being a huge bust. He has talent, no question about that, but I question his mental makeup. He doesn't seem to have that killer instinct, which is huge for a D-lineman. His upper body strength is also questionable. The fact he wouldn't redo his bench press is a red flag to me. What is he afraid of? Why is he so nervous? Too many question marks with McCoy for him to be a top 5 pick IMO.

I'm just glad my Lions have the 2nd pick, thus we will be getting Suh....

Scott Wright
04-01-2010, 07:44 PM
Scott, is Gerald McCoy a prospect for a 3-4 DE spot? IMO he's not, it would not only be a waste of his passrushing talent, it would play to his weaknesses, one being upperbody strength in order to maintain a gap

Technically he could do it, but Suh would be a better fit as a five-technique than McCoy.

BaLLiN
04-01-2010, 07:46 PM
Technically he could do it, but Suh would be a better fit as a five-technique than McCoy.

Well i mean technically doesnt mean he'd do well, i meant to ask would his value severely decrease as a 3-4 DE? from a top 5 or so to like a top 15?

LonghornsLegend
04-01-2010, 07:48 PM
I just read that SF has McCoy #1 on their board in general to play 5 tech, over Suh and everyone else. Guess it only takes one team.

Gchu83
04-01-2010, 07:51 PM
McCoy has a ton of potential but I do think he is somewhat overrated. But I really don't see why he's a Top 3 pick while a guy like Lamarr Houston is considered a mid to late 2nd rounder.

6-3 305lbs.
57 Tkls 20 TFL 7 Sacks
4.85 Forty 33.5 Vertical 30 Bench Press Reps

or

6-4 295lbs.
34 Tkls 15 TFL 6 Sacks
4.96 Forty 30.5 Vertical 23 Bench Press Reps

Scott Wright
04-01-2010, 09:14 PM
McCoy has a ton of potential but I do think he is somewhat overrated. But I really don't see why he's a Top 3 pick while a guy like Lamarr Houston is considered a mid to late 2nd rounder.

6-3 305lbs.
57 Tkls 20 TFL 7 Sacks
4.85 Forty 33.5 Vertical 30 Bench Press Reps

or

6-4 295lbs.
34 Tkls 15 TFL 6 Sacks
4.96 Forty 30.5 Vertical 23 Bench Press Reps

Wow.

Not sure why we bother to watch tape at all. Seems like we can just look at sizes, forty times and statistics. That will cut down on those scouting budgets for NFL teams...

Sniper
04-01-2010, 09:15 PM
Wow.

Not sure why we bother to watch tape at all. Seems like we can just look at sizes, forty times and statistics. That will cut down on those scouting budgets for NFL teams...

Graham Harrell should have easily been the #1 overall pick.

Scott Wright
04-01-2010, 09:18 PM
Graham Harrell should have easily been the #1 overall pick.

Absolutely! Same size as Matthew Stafford and Mark Sanchez and even better stats.

Why in the world wasn't Harrell the #1 overall pick?

Halsey
04-01-2010, 09:19 PM
Drew Brees is clearly too short to cut it in the NFL.

Sniper
04-01-2010, 09:21 PM
Absolutely! Same size as Matthew Stafford and Mark Sanchez and even better stats.

Why in the world wasn't Harrell the #1 overall pick?

It's a conspiracy, really. It's a ploy by the NFL to dilute its product. It's only because Sanchez and Stafford played at "name" schools and Harrell didn't.

Rosebud
04-01-2010, 09:21 PM
Yeah, Jamarcus Russel should've been a #1 pick!...I think I'm doing it wrong...

ironman4579
04-01-2010, 10:16 PM
Yeah, Jamarcus Russel should've been a #1 pick!...I think I'm doing it wrong...

The Raiders ruin everything.

CC.SD
04-01-2010, 10:19 PM
Technically he could do it, but Suh would be a better fit as a five-technique than McCoy.

If a team put McCoy in the 5 spot I would find their GM and high five him in the face.

wordofi
04-02-2010, 12:49 AM
First off he just doesn't seem like he's big enough. Yeah, he's 6'4 295 but he's just got such a small upper body. He's legs are huge but his upper body is weak.

This is the only part of your post that I agree with. I thought I was the only one that thought his upper body was on the small side.

FUNBUNCHER
04-02-2010, 12:53 AM
This is the only part of your post that I agree with. I thought I was the only one that thought his upper body was on the small side.

This is where McCoy will make his biggest improvement, IMO, once he really gets strong in his upper body.

Right now Suh simply dusts him in upper body strength/power.

OaklandRaider56
04-02-2010, 01:17 AM
If you watch the tape of McCoy versus Miami, you'll see a disruptive force that was consistently getting into the backfield. Miami ran a lot of stretch plays away from McCoy and lots of misdirections to try to neutralize him. He was easily OU's best defensive player in that game.

And if you look at the Texas Tech game you'll see Brandon Carter putting McCoy on his ***.

I think both McCoy and Suh are being over rated, McCoy a little more so. They're both awesome DTs but the NFL's a whole different level. McCoy is a liability against the run because he'll get pushed around at times. Suh struggles getting seperation. Neither of them is going to come into the league and tear it up in some unworldly fashion. They're different players, that both work very hard, it's all about the position the team that drafts them puts them in.

OaklandRaider56
04-02-2010, 01:18 AM
Most rookies are over rated.

Scott Wright
04-02-2010, 01:22 AM
There's really no point arguing, you can find fault in every prospects game.

Heck, people criticized and picked apart Peyton Manning.

In my opinion Gerald McCoy is an elite prospect. We'll see who was right in 3-5 years.

descendency
04-02-2010, 01:38 AM
First of all, Oklahoma was 7th in the entire country in rush defense.

In a pass happy conference, this isn't a surprise.

Clarkw267
04-02-2010, 01:40 AM
Keep in mind that defensive tackles don't usually rack up double-digit sacks. I believe the NFL leader in sacks by a defensive tackle in 2009 had 7.0 total. There is nothing wrong with McCoy's 6.5 and 6.0 sacks the past two seasons. Do you like Kevin Williams, who is as good of a pass rushing defensive tackle as there is in the league? Well, he had 7.0 sacks his final season in college. Must be a bum. Everyone should be be very careful not to jump to snap conclusions about prospects based on glancing at a stat line. Very dangerous stuff.

Scott... Here are my issues with McCoy. Tell me if you saw this in your evaluation of Gerald.

He is extremely quick of the snap, and penetrates with ease.. This everybody knows. However, at times he seems out of control and loses the ball. I know people say it's the system, but that's what's lacking in the Sapp comparisons to me. Sapp had very good awareness and knew where the ball carrier was even while exploding upfield, and using his spin/swim moves.

The other thing that bothers me a little about him is the whole bench press issue. Now I really don't care whether he can put up 23, 25, or 35 reps. The issue I have is him using the "nerves" excuse at the combine, and vowing he can/will do more. And then failing to show that he has put any more work in, by not lifting at the Bradford date. It may be a small red flag, but when you're putting guys that are supposedly 1A and 1B in order on a draft board, sometimes that's all it takes.

jth1331
04-02-2010, 08:44 AM
People also need to understand that his play caused more turmoil than the stats will say.
Also, he DID line up in a 3-4 DE spot on numerous occassions. He has all the makeups of an elite DT and I can see the top 5 pick worthiness in him.

If anything, I think Suh is overrated as people are basically calling him a HoFer without him taking a snap in the NFL.

FUNBUNCHER
04-02-2010, 10:38 AM
So who's the safer pick from the standpoint of an NFL GM??

Meaning, if both Suh and McCoy fall way short of expectations, who would still be the better football player??

Right now, I give that advantage to Suh; he's always going to be a powerful, big, mobile DT. Assuming he 'busts', for the sake of argument, he will occupy 2 blockers from time to time, and should be a force against the run - his tackle #s ( I know!! STATZ!) in college for a DT are still unheard of.

If McCoy 'busts', he's still a starter for 10 years, he's still relatively quick and should flash the ability to penetrate, but other than that, I don't know how much else he would give you.

So, IMO, if Suh busts, he has a Big Daddy Wilkinson/Daryl Gardener type career.

If McCoy busts, he has a Sean Gilbert/Marcus Stroud type career path.

JFLO
04-02-2010, 11:09 AM
I think there is a fine line between McCoy and Suh as prospects. Suh is the most "touted" defensive tackle prospect to come around in arguably 20 years. I can't emphasize the word TOUTED enough. He puts up the crazy stats and his game against Texas in the Big 12 Championship essentially put him as a Top 5 prospect in the draft.

However, I think McCoy's game translates very well at the next level. He's an extremely gifted pass rusher for a defensive tackle, the best since Warren Sapp, like the OP said. He may not bull rush a guard three yards back to get to the quarterback, but people have to realize that it's not his game. His game is using his elite quickness and hands to get to the quarterback.

Suh on the other hand isn't as quick as Suh but obviously uses much more leverage than McCoy ever has while in Norman.

McCoy is not overrated at all, the OP's post is ridiculous. I honestly think that McCoy is the best prospect in the draft, Suh being #2.

BaLLiN
04-02-2010, 12:02 PM
If a team put McCoy in the 5 spot I would find their GM and high five him in the face.

so youre saying it would be dumb... i agree

vidae
04-02-2010, 12:26 PM
Wow.

Not sure why we bother to watch tape at all. Seems like we can just look at sizes, forty times and statistics. That will cut down on those scouting budgets for NFL teams...

Works for the Raiders!

*runs away*

AntoinCD
04-02-2010, 12:28 PM
If we're making the arguement of McCoy's upper body strength being a negative then you also have to question the fact Suh completely dominated with strength in college. It's not as easy in the pros.

To me Suh is the superior prospect but McCoy is very, very close. Really in my opinion its like comparing Kevin Williams to Richard Seymour.

McCoy's best fit will be to play in a one gap system and asked to wreak havoc in the backfield. At times this can be detrimental to stats. So many times last year he was in the backfield forcing the RB to bounce to the outside or forcing the QB out of the pocket. In the NFL interior pass rush is gold, it helps every other player on the defense.

Suh has great hand movement and strength to disengage from blocks and make the tackle himself. There is a reason why a DT leads his team in tackles because he wasnt asked to penetrate and force the play elsewhere.

If a team is looking for a one gap penetrator then McCoy is their guy. If a team is looking for a dominant 5 tech, or a great DT who reads his keys then Suh is their guy.

Neither is overly overrated at this point IMO.

Halsey
04-02-2010, 01:18 PM
People get so caught up in how many bench presses a guy does or the 40 times he runs, but that tells you little about his strength and speed in the 4th quarter of week 15 of an NFL season. It's great to be strong and fast, but in football a player has to have stamina too. You can be the strongest and fastest guy in the world, but if you're worn out by the fourth quarter, it doesn't do much good. One of McCoy's strengths is his motor, which implies he plays with a high level of energy on a consistent basis.

bored of education
04-02-2010, 01:49 PM
Tyson Jackson had 18 bench reps I think? lol

irishbucsfan
04-02-2010, 03:22 PM
Tyson Jackson had 18 bench reps I think? lol

That's what? Only a STR rating of 68?

Iamcanadian
04-03-2010, 07:01 PM
You've probably read a lot of my posts referring to McCoy as a bust waiting to happen or how he's not worth the 3rd overall pick imo. He's coming out as a junior, which I won't hold against him, after having the same type of year he did as a sophomore. In my opinion a lot of draftnicks got on his bandwagon early and now feel forced to stay on his bandwagon. In his case he really didn't do anything statistically, which I will show, to warrant a top 5 pick. I thought I would take the time to show you why I feel this way. This will probably be a pretty long read and comparison. Feel free to add your own information....

http://s3.amazonaws.com/newsok-photos/788045/medium.jpg

First off he just doesn't seem like he's big enough. Yeah, he's 6'4 295 but he's just got such a small upper body. He's legs are huge but his upper body is weak. Just compare him to a young Sapp here in this photo....

http://www.profootballhof.com/images/content/photos/1995sapp.jpg

Next I've talked about him being really poor against the run. Teams know they can run right at him or throw screens at him because all he does is penetrate. Lets look at some stats from Oklahoma's games this year....

BYU-28 yards rushing
Idaho-State -28 yards rushing
Tulsa-116 yards rushing
Miami-140 yards rushing
Baylor-6 yards rushing
Texas=142 yards rushing
Kansas-81 yards rushing
Kansas State-149 yards rushing
Nebraska-141 yards rushing
Texas A&M-59 yards rushing
Texas Tech-161 yards rushing
Oklahoma State-62 yards rushing
Stanford-145 yards rushing

In 7 out of 13 games they gave up over 100 yards. In most it was either over 140 ypg or close to it. The teams that didn't rush for over 100 yards against them were mostly scrub teams. In the draftlab series on him they said that in 19 of 52 runs right at him the opponent gained 4 yards or more. In 10 of the 52 runs the opponent gained 10 yards or more. He is very susceptible to draws, screens, traps and counters.

As a matter of fact most scouts say he will not be able to play in any type of 3-4 defense. He wouldn't even make a good end in a 3-4. They also say that he will most likely only be effective in a 4-3 as a one gap pass rusher. I also question why he doesn't have better stats. One site said that he was used to take up 2 blockers so that his linebackers and other lineman can make the play. Wasn't it many of you last year that said that Ron Brace wasn't worth the #19 pick because all he did was eat up blockers on the #1 run defense in the country?

So now lets look at some stats of 4-3 DTs just to show you the difference and why he's not worth the #3 pick....

Gerald McCoy 6'4 295 (Junior) Age 21
2009-32 TT 25 Solo 7 Assists 6 Sacks
2008-26 TT 13 Solo 13 Assists 6 Sacks 1 INT
2007-19 TT 9 Solo 10 Assists 2 Sacks

Ndamukong Suh 6'4 300 (Senior) Age 23
2009-82 TT 37 Solo 45 Assists 12 Sacks 1 INT
2008-76 TT 39 Solo 37 Assists 7 Sacks 2 INTs 2 TDs
2007--34 TT 20 Solo 14 Assists 1 Sack
2006-19 TT 12 Solo 7 Assists 3 Sacks 1 INT
2005-1 TT 1 Assist

Brian Price 6'2 300 (Junior) Age 20
2009-43 TT 36 Solo 7 Assists 7 Sacks 1 FF
2008-35 TT 25 Solo 10 Assists 4 Sacks 1 FF 1 INT
2007-14 TT 9 Solo 5 Assists 1 Sacks 2 FF

Dan Williams 6'3 327 (Senior) Age 22
2009-62 TT 30 Solo 32 Assists 2 Sacks
2008-49 TT 23 Solo 26 Assists 1 Sack
2007-40 TT 15 Solo 25 Assists 2 Sacks
2006-2 TT 1 Solo 1 Assist 1 Sack

Jared Odrick 6'5 306 (Senior) Age 22
2009-43 TT 17 Solo 26 Assists 7 Sacks
2008-41 TT 19 Solo 22 Assists 4 Sacks
2007-16 TT 8 Solo 8 Assists 2 Sacks
2006-4 TT 3 Solo 1 Assist 1 Sack

Lamarr Houston 6'2 300 (Senior) Age 22
2009-57 TT 38 Solo 19 Assists 7 Sacks
2008-23 TT 16 Solo 7 Assists 1 Sack
2007-45 TT 24 Solo 21 Assists 4 Sacks
2006-8 TT 4 Solo 4 Assists 1 Sack

Do you see where I am going with this? Look at his tape. Look at his stats. Look at his size and build. Why is everyone so caught up in this Gerald McCoy hype. What exactly has he done to deserve to even be considered a top 15 pick?

You know, every 1st round LB drafted from USC over the last couple of years got heavily criticized for lacking meaningful stats. Pro football is simply not college football where college coaches use systems which often limit star players from shining. USC LB's played superbly last year in the pros from, Cushing(DROY), Matthews, and Rivers but all were questioned in their draft years for lacking stats.
If college performance alone decided who would make the best pros, teams would simply draft from All-American teams and not bother to scout prospects.
McCoy could easily be drafted ahead of Suh who while a very solid top 5 pro prospect, is being totally overhyped as some kind of player of the decade. McCoy is rated as a superior pass rusher to Suh in an era where teams like to pass the ball and quite a few pro teams perfer him over Suh, who is more of a run stuffing DT. Just because Oklahoma didn't allow him to just take off and attack the QB in their defensive scheme doesn't mean he won't be superb as a pass rusher at the next level.
Youi are completely wasting your time trying to compare college player's pro potential using stats when every college team is using different systems both offensively and defensively.

FUNBUNCHER
04-03-2010, 10:09 PM
Suh is like Barry Sanders, stat wise, when he was drafted out of Okla State in '88.
When a player puts up numbers that are difficult to process, or project to the next level, some will say automatically that he's overrated. Others will think, like me, that conservatively speaking, he could be one of the most dominating Dline prospects the league has seen 20 years.

If Suh was truly overrated, he'd be regarded as the consensus #1 overall pick. Apparently, that's not how he's viewed by many talent evaluators.

Given that stats for any college player at best provide a very incomplete picture, however, stats aren't utterly irrelevant, especially when you're comparing two players who play the same position in the same conference.

In McCoy, you have a player who was basically given the freedom to do as he wished at the snap, which was primarily to get upfield, if possible, and go to the football.

Suh, on the other hand, played in a very scheme disciplined alignment, that required he hold his position at the snap, occupy his blocker, read the play, disengage and go to the football.

Intuitively, I would think strictly from a stat perspective, McCoy playing in OU's attacking scheme would have the superior stat numbers.

Instead, it was Suh, playing in a scheme disciplined defense who had the tackle totals of an ILB and the sack numbers of a 43 DE.

What Suh did last year is the equivalent of a 34 DE totaling 16 sacks; those are numbers you just don't see from that position.

Really, it's not even Suh's superior sack totals and TFL that push him far ahead of McCoy as a prospect in my mind, it's that Suh's number of solo tackles are greater than McCoy's total tackles overall.

Think for a minute; Suh made more tackles by HIMSELF than McCoy made alone AND with the help of his teammates.

That's why when folks talk about McCoy's superior quickness, I have to ask myself, 'are you sure about that?'

Suh has better agility, better pursuit and closing speed, better change of direction skills, better leverage, better play recognition.

I wish I had a crystal ball because there's too much waiting in the offseason, but in three years we should have a clearer picture about who became what in the NFL.

BaLLiN
04-03-2010, 10:25 PM
Suh has better agility, better pursuit and closing speed, better change of direction skills, better leverage, better play recognition.


you cannot deduce that from stats, i like youre structure and thought process, but you cannot infer something like that when McCoy is clearly the more adept athlete. Suh is the more natural football player. While i do like athletes, a football player finds ways to get it done, they have heart and play with passion. Guys like Ray Lewis, Terrell Owens (yes), Brandon Marshall, London Fletcher, Bob Sanders etc. they all didn't come into the league as much heralded players, they had nitpicks and for others-legitimate problems. My favorite Ray Lewis quote

That's once again the same people who told me I was too small, the same people who said I couldn't win a Super Bowl with our offense, the same people who said I couldn't play in a 3-4, ... Are they with me when I get up every morning at 6:30 to go to work? The day I lose a step is the day I lose love for the game.

Mr.Regular
04-03-2010, 10:25 PM
I wrote a blog piece on DT's today (link in my sig). Here is a part of that write up that focuses on the comparison of Suh and McCoy.

Suh is one of the best prospects I have ever seen regardless of position. He has a non stop motor, elite strength, the ability to shut down a teams entire run game up the middle, he can take on and shed multiple blockers, he's blessed with the best bullrush move I've ever seen in a prospect, he tackles exceptionally well, and he is terrific in pursuit of the ball carrier. There isn't enough good things one can say about Suh. However some people like to throw some negatives out there...you usually here three things when people want to criticize Suh. I want to address each one.

1- Suh doesn't have many pass rush moves.
Well how do you know? He was the most dominant defensive player in college football in recent memory, why would he switch what he was doing in the bullrush? His upper body strength is unmatched by pretty much everyone.. why would he change what was working so well? In the NFL, yes he will have to show off some more moves, but there's no doubt he has the work ethic and ability to do so...and there's no way that his bullrush will be fully neutralized anyways. I don't see this point as a negative in any way.

2- Doesn't have an elite first step.
His first step penetration ability is not all world, but it's not bad. He has the acceleration off the snap to be successful and the first step is good enough to be a good pass rusher. No, it is not elite, but that's not really his game. If you watch his tape, you'll realize that his burst off the snap isn't exceptional but it isn't bad by any means. For a guy whose game is based on power and strength, his first step is actually quite good.

3- Injury concerns.
Now this is valid. He had knee injuries in the past and they required surgery. Now in no way has this hindered his play and there is no reason to think that it will affect him in the pros, but a team has to do its homework on those knees before drafting him because if this problem starts occurring again and again than there could be a problem.

Suh is an elite talent. He has the upside of Reggie White. He is that good and could be that dominant at the next level. He is my #1 player regardless of position in the draft by a long shot. Some people think differently though, and have fellow DT Gerald McCoy ranked higher then Suh. Now McCoy is fantastic, in fact he is my #3 player regardless of position in the draft (Eric Berry being #2), but in my opinion he isn't on the same level as Suh...he's not even close.

McCoy has the burst and penetration ability of Tommie Harris (before he started going downhill) and could be an absolute stud as a passrusher. He has all the moves you want to see out of a DT. He isn't exactly good in the run game, but he isn't bad either. At times he can get pushed out of a play rather easily but there are also times where he holds his own. He shouldn't be a liability in the run game but he won't be a difference maker by any stretch of the imagination. In one on one pass blocking situations he has shown to be an effective block shedder, but when it comes to double teams he is easily neutralized. He has a non stop motor and is a hard worker but wasn't overly productive at Oklahoma.
McCoy's technique is NFL ready and his elite first step have people drooling over his pass rush potential. He is a fantastic prospect in his own right, but when comparing him to Suh, he just doesn't compare. If he goes ahead of Suh, then a team will be making a big time mistake in my opinion because Suh is better then him in pretty much every category except than first step quickness. Suh is more scheme diverse, he has better strength, he is a better tackler, he is a better block shedder, he is proven to more productive, he has better size, he is much better against the run, and their motor and technique are on par.
McCoy is good yes. In fact he's a borderline elite prospect in his own right. But his ceiling may be Tommie Harris...not a bad thing, but Suh has potential in a DT that only comes along once in a decade or so.

Gchu83
04-03-2010, 10:43 PM
Wow.

Not sure why we bother to watch tape at all. Seems like we can just look at sizes, forty times and statistics. That will cut down on those scouting budgets for NFL teams...

Actually I've watched a ton of tape of both players which I used as the basis of my opinion, the stats are just reinforcements. Like I posted, I think McCoy is a good prospect but I can't understand why he's rated so high when Houston is rated pretty low, especially considering that I think Houston has just as good as film on top of having better stats/measurables.

brasho
04-04-2010, 08:26 AM
Call me crazy, too, but I have Lamarr Houston as a better player than McCoy as well. Considering Houston had what I thought was the best bowl game of any DT by far (and his in the Natl Chmpship game), outproduced McCoy by a landslide in stats plus his measurables are far better than McCoy's, Houston will be a better pro than McCoy in my book.



Gerald McCOy reminds me of a player that everybody was calling the next Warren Sapp a few years back, LSU's Glenn Dorsey. Everybody talked about how fast and athletic Dorsey was then he showed up at this Pro Day and tested out like a 6th rounder:

Height: 6014
Weight: 297
40 Yrd Dash: 5.12
20 Yrd Dash: 2.98
10 Yrd Dash: 1.74 225 Lb. Bench Reps: 27
Vertical Jump: 25 1/2
Broad Jump: 08'04"
20 Yrd Shuttle: 4.80
3-Cone Drill: 7.52

McCoy's workout was eerily similar to Dorsey's, two guys whose games are about being quick and athletic and they both don't test very well.... sure they were athletic... when compared to collegiate OGs, none of which are probably going to be in the NFL:

Height: 6041
Weight: 295
40 Yrd Dash: 5.04
20 Yrd Dash: 2.85
10 Yrd Dash: 1.68 225 Lb. Bench Reps: 23
Vertical Jump: 30 1/2
Broad Jump: 09'06"
20 Yrd Shuttle: 4.48
3-Cone Drill: 7.32


According to their measurables, McCoy is slightly more athletic than Dorsey, with Dorsey showing more dedication in the gym... but slightly more athletic than Dorsey still makes for a below average NFL DT. Statistically, Dorsey and McCoy are eerily similar as well with the exception that Dorsey compiled far better tackle numbers (which suggests he locates and makes plays on the ball better and/or has a better motor).



Finally, to keep in mind the player/players McCoy is most often compared to: Warren Sapp and Tommie Harris. I don't have the list of these two players' measurables but I do distinctly remember their 40 times... Warren Sapp ran a 4.7 and Harris a 4.68 quite the contrast for these two upfield athletic DTs that McCoy (5.04) and Dorsey (5.12) are often compared to.

For my money, give me Lamarr Houston and his better production despite only being a DT for two seasons and a DL for four total seasons.

Height: 6026
Weight: 305
40 Yrd Dash: 4.84
20 Yrd Dash: 2.80
10 Yrd Dash: 1.68 225 Lb. Bench Reps: 30
Vertical Jump: 33 1/2
Broad Jump: 09'06"
20 Yrd Shuttle: 4.71
3-Cone Drill: 7.61

brasho
04-04-2010, 08:36 AM
Just found Tommie Harris' measurables, which McCoy doesn't come close to measuring up against:

Height: 6024
Weight: 295
40 Yrd Dash: 4.78
20 Yrd Dash:
10 Yrd Dash: 225 Lb. Bench Reps: 29
Vertical Jump: 31
Broad Jump: 9'1"
20 Yrd Shuttle: 4.31
3-Cone Drill: 4.71

The closest player this season to the Tommie Harris/Warren Sapp athleticism is converted TE (like Sapp was early in his career) Earl Mitchell. Mitchell was a stud despite not playing DL before and spending his entire college career as a TE:

Height: 6016
Weight: 296
40 Yrd Dash: 4.75
20 Yrd Dash: 2.69
10 Yrd Dash: 1.56 225 Lb. Bench Reps: 25
Vertical Jump: 28 1/2
Broad Jump: 08'11"
20 Yrd Shuttle: 4.55
3-Cone Drill: 7.68


And Geno Atkins whose production wasn't far behind McCoy's and really stood out in the Senior Bowl:

Height: 6013
Weight: 293
40 Yrd Dash: 4.75
20 Yrd Dash: 2.64
10 Yrd Dash: 1.68 225 Lb. Bench Reps: 34
Vertical Jump: 33
Broad Jump: 09'09"
20 Yrd Shuttle: 4.43
3-Cone Drill: 7.33

Addict
04-04-2010, 09:50 AM
when pudge speaks i get a warm feeling inside

I get that same feeling in my pants, it does cool fast tho

Addict
04-04-2010, 09:59 AM
seriously people.

Lies, damned lies, and statistics.

Knock it off.

AntoinCD
04-04-2010, 11:05 AM
Call me crazy, too, but I have Lamarr Houston as a better player than McCoy as well. Considering Houston had what I thought was the best bowl game of any DT by far (and his in the Natl Chmpship game), outproduced McCoy by a landslide in stats plus his measurables are far better than McCoy's, Houston will be a better pro than McCoy in my book.



Gerald McCOy reminds me of a player that everybody was calling the next Warren Sapp a few years back, LSU's Glenn Dorsey. Everybody talked about how fast and athletic Dorsey was then he showed up at this Pro Day and tested out like a 6th rounder:

Height: 6014
Weight: 297
40 Yrd Dash: 5.12
20 Yrd Dash: 2.98
10 Yrd Dash: 1.74 225 Lb. Bench Reps: 27
Vertical Jump: 25 1/2
Broad Jump: 08'04"
20 Yrd Shuttle: 4.80
3-Cone Drill: 7.52

McCoy's workout was eerily similar to Dorsey's, two guys whose games are about being quick and athletic and they both don't test very well.... sure they were athletic... when compared to collegiate OGs, none of which are probably going to be in the NFL:

Height: 6041
Weight: 295
40 Yrd Dash: 5.04
20 Yrd Dash: 2.85
10 Yrd Dash: 1.68 225 Lb. Bench Reps: 23
Vertical Jump: 30 1/2
Broad Jump: 09'06"
20 Yrd Shuttle: 4.48
3-Cone Drill: 7.32


According to their measurables, McCoy is slightly more athletic than Dorsey, with Dorsey showing more dedication in the gym... but slightly more athletic than Dorsey still makes for a below average NFL DT. Statistically, Dorsey and McCoy are eerily similar as well with the exception that Dorsey compiled far better tackle numbers (which suggests he locates and makes plays on the ball better and/or has a better motor).



Finally, to keep in mind the player/players McCoy is most often compared to: Warren Sapp and Tommie Harris. I don't have the list of these two players' measurables but I do distinctly remember their 40 times... Warren Sapp ran a 4.7 and Harris a 4.68 quite the contrast for these two upfield athletic DTs that McCoy (5.04) and Dorsey (5.12) are often compared to.

For my money, give me Lamarr Houston and his better production despite only being a DT for two seasons and a DL for four total seasons.

Height: 6026
Weight: 305
40 Yrd Dash: 4.84
20 Yrd Dash: 2.80
10 Yrd Dash: 1.68 225 Lb. Bench Reps: 30
Vertical Jump: 33 1/2
Broad Jump: 09'06"
20 Yrd Shuttle: 4.71
3-Cone Drill: 7.61

OK you're crazy. And Dorsey had major, major injury worries at the time which McCoy doesnt have.

When do DTs ever run 40yds(except for Shaun Rodgers nearly collapsing running in a TD), and bench press etc mean nothing on the football field.

How's Vernon Gholston doing these days? I heard he had a pretty good combine and college production. Not in any way comparing Houston to Gholston in bust potential by the way but almost everything about McCoy says he is a top, top prospect except his 'measurables' in comparison to other players.

GoHuskers
04-04-2010, 11:38 AM
I really like McCoy but I can't legitimately rate him above Suh, or even in a 1a/1b scenario(inb4 "lol homer!" remarks"). It seems everybody had to find some way to knock Suh after the ridiculous hype after the Texas game. He led the best defense in the country in tackles from the NT position, has measurables to compete in the NFL, sure he could bust but he's IMO the safest prospect in the draft. McCoy could have more potential but I can't really put him up there with Suh when he's never showcased such dominance.

GoHuskers
04-04-2010, 11:51 AM
and one remark about Suh's pass rushing, I'd put him a notch below McCoy but he's not horribly handicapped in that regard, we ran a base dime 90% of the time and bailed our LB which left Suh to play spy a lot of the time. Even when we let him rush we'd rather he just bull instead of audition for dancing with the stars so the mobile QB's we played won't escape(and because he's better at it). I feel confident he can learn more moves and even if he doesn't his bullrush will still be at least average in the NFL, worst case scenario.

Rosebud
04-04-2010, 12:35 PM
Actually Harris and McCoy compare very favorably, McCoy's 10-yard split was .05 slower, his vertical half an inch less, same with the broad jump, his shuffle was .17 slower but his cone drill was .39 seconds faster. So actually McCoy's quickness and explosiveness is right on par with Tommie Harris and he also has much better pass rushing technique than Tommie had coming out and is longer. So even if you insist on focusing on the physical measureables McCoy does compare favorably to Tommie Harris in everything except for long speed, which is completely insignificant when talking about lineman.

As for McCoy/Houston comparing those two statistically is moronic, Houston is far more raw, played on a defense where he was never the focal point like McCoy has been since his Freshman year and Houston didn't get moved around/rotated out nearly as much as McCoy. Plus if bowl game dominance is so important to you go check out last years National Championship game and watch McCoy dominate Florida. Houston has nearly as much potential as McCoy but he's much further away from reaching that potential and frankly is unlikely to every be able to match McCoy on technique.

FUNBUNCHER
04-04-2010, 01:52 PM
Lamarr Houston is definitely underrated, I'm anxious to see where he goes and how he's used at the next level. I've heard him being projected as a 34 DE and 43 UT.

I'm totally on Suh's jock, but I would not be surprised if Houston was a stud in the pros.

I've seen where Suh falls to the Skins at #4, which really seems damn near impossible.

Anyone else think it's a realistic scenario barring a trade up that the draft order at the top is Bradford, Okung, McCoy, and then Suh??

The Skins need a QB and a LT, not necessarily in that order, but if Suh fell in our laps at #4, I'd want Bruce Allen to draft the kid.

Haynesworth, Suh, and Orakpo as a part of any front 7 defensive alignment would be pure WICKEDNESS!!!

Brent
04-04-2010, 03:12 PM
I just read that SF has McCoy #1 on their board in general to play 5 tech, over Suh and everyone else. Guess it only takes one team.
uh, where was this at?

Addict
04-04-2010, 05:08 PM
uh, where was this at?

I'm sure it was somewhere, he can't remember.

brat316
04-04-2010, 05:46 PM
So 19 went for 4 yards or more. The other 33 runs against him went for under 3.9 that is impressive.

yourfavestoner
04-05-2010, 11:04 AM
To the thread starter: I admire the effort you give in arguing your point. However, it is impossible to deduce the value of any college player through statistics alone - especially line play. It's about the eye test, and McCoy is a guy who jumps off the screen on tape.

He's definitely not overrated, and in most classes he'd be the consensus top tackle. He just happens to be in the same draft class with a virtually flawless defensive tackle prospect. You don't have to tear one down just because you like another one - they're both excellent prospects in their own right.

K Train
04-05-2010, 09:44 PM
I also think McCoy could end up being a huge bust. He has talent, no question about that, but I question his mental makeup. He doesn't seem to have that killer instinct, which is huge for a D-lineman. His upper body strength is also questionable. The fact he wouldn't redo his bench press is a red flag to me. What is he afraid of? Why is he so nervous? Too many question marks with McCoy for him to be a top 5 pick IMO.

I'm just glad my Lions have the 2nd pick, thus we will be getting Suh....

thats another thing i noticed....suh is relentless and nasty, mccoy is very technical but doesnt have the viciousness of suh imo. good post

LonghornsLegend
04-05-2010, 10:03 PM
uh, where was this at?


I'm sure it was somewhere, he can't remember.



It was actually Matt Maiocco guessing what SF's big board would be that he posted on his twitter, so it technically wasn't SF but he's one of the best beat writers in the business. Still doesn't make it accurate, but it was interesting that he thought so being that they run a 3-4:


49ers beat writer Matt Maiocco guesses that San Francisco has Gerald McCoy rated No. 1 on its 2010 draft board.

McCoy would play five technique in the Niners' 3-4 system. Maiocco thinks Ndamukong Suh, Russell Okung, Joe Haden, and Eric Berry could round out the team's top five. San Francisco sits at Nos. 13 and 17 in the first round.
Source: Matt Maiocco on Twitter

yourfavestoner
04-06-2010, 11:08 AM
It was actually Matt Maiocco guessing what SF's big board would be that he posted on his twitter, so it technically wasn't SF but he's one of the best beat writers in the business. Still doesn't make it accurate, but it was interesting that he thought so being that they run a 3-4:

:Sigh:

3-4 teams still haven't figured out that 3-tech penetrators generally make horrible 5-tech two-gappers?

Addict
04-06-2010, 11:12 AM
:Sigh:

3-4 teams still haven't figured out that 3-tech penetrators generally make horrible 5-tech two-gappers?

You'd think they'd have figured it out by now...

AntoinCD
04-06-2010, 11:13 AM
:Sigh:

3-4 teams still haven't figured out that 3-tech penetrators generally make horrible 5-tech two-gappers?

Most of them do however I think there are a select few who could do it extremely well in the NFL. Kevin Williams for one could be a very good 5 tech. I also think Marcus Stroud be very effective in that role. In the draft I think McCoy could be a very good 5 tech. Each of these players are more effective as 3 tech but could play the 5 very well IMO. The one thing they have in common is very good length. They are all in the 6'4-6'6 range. Short squatty 3 techs like Glenn Dorsey however dont make for good 34 ends

ThePudge
04-06-2010, 11:28 AM
People need to realize you don't have to take anything away from Suh to have a higher regard of McCoy. I've said it before, Gerald was the established star coming into the year, a Top 5 prospect on every respectable board. Suh had a stellar 2008 campaign setting up his dominant 2009 season, but McCoy came into college with no speed bump and quickly made it known that he was going to be the best Sooners DL to come around in decades. They're two very different players, with two very different roles in college, but both dominate on the field. Both have the potential to be extremely disruptive at the next level.

For me, McCoy stands out on tape as an unstoppable force that will have little adjustment period. To stop him you need to double team the UT, freeing up his NT, LBs, and DEs for more one-on-one situations. That's what he did at OU; if he wasn't in the backfield flushing the Quarterback from the pocket then usually he was trapped in a double team, opening lanes for other defenders. He lives in the backfield & is as quick off the snap as any interior DL I've ever seen. Suh may intimidate more due to his style of play, and he's definitely better at controlling blockers with his hands, but don't doubt the fire & effort that Gerald McCoy brings with him on the field.

The Suh hype didn't lead the way for McCoy to get his name in there, NFL coaches would have been ready to pull the trigger on Gerald among the Top 5 picks (Seattle notably) last year. Two elite Defensive Tackle prospects with very different skill-sets. If I'm ranking Suh above McCoy then I don't need to take anything away from Gerald to do so, if I'm ranking McCoy over Suh then I don't need to take anything away from Ndamukong. Both are Top 5 picks, both deserve to be.

jth1331
04-06-2010, 11:58 AM
People need to realize you don't have to take anything away from Suh to have a higher regard of McCoy. I've said it before, Gerald was the established star coming into the year, a Top 5 prospect on every respectable board. Suh had a stellar 2008 campaign setting up his dominant 2009 season, but McCoy came into college with no speed bump and quickly made it known that he was going to be the best Sooners DL to come around in decades. They're two very different players, with two very different roles in college, but both dominate on the field. Both have the potential to be extremely disruptive at the next level.

For me, McCoy stands out on tape as an unstoppable force that will have little adjustment period. To stop him you need to double team the UT, freeing up his NT, LBs, and DEs for more one-on-one situations. That's what he did at OU; if he wasn't in the backfield flushing the Quarterback from the pocket then usually he was trapped in a double team, opening lanes for other defenders. He lives in the backfield & is as quick off the snap as any interior DL I've ever seen. Suh may intimidate more due to his style of play, and he's definitely better at controlling blockers with his hands, but don't doubt the fire & effort that Gerald McCoy brings with him on the field.

The Suh hype didn't lead the way for McCoy to get his name in there, NFL coaches would have been ready to pull the trigger on Gerald among the Top 5 picks (Seattle notably) last year. Two elite Defensive Tackle prospects with very different skill-sets. If I'm ranking Suh above McCoy then I don't need to take anything away from Gerald to do so, if I'm ranking McCoy over Suh then I don't need to take anything away from Ndamukong. Both are Top 5 picks, both deserve to be.

There is that warm, fuzzy and tingling feeling I get when I read Pudge's posts.

FUNBUNCHER
04-06-2010, 12:28 PM
There is that warm, fuzzy and tingling feeling I get when I read Pudge's posts.

LOL! Yes, Pudge can be very persuasive without being obnoxious in his opinion.

Maybe he's right, the problem is we're attempting to compare two players with two completely different skill sets and project who will have the greater impact as a pro.

I still have a lot of love for Suh, but maybe I shouldn't be surprised if McCoy becomes an impact NFL player as a rookie.

I guess if you need a DT, most can agree that both Suh/McCoy are at the top of the list.

ThePudge
04-06-2010, 12:48 PM
LOL! Yes, Pudge can be very persuasive without being obnoxious in his opinion.

Maybe he's right, the problem is we're attempting to compare two players with two completely different skill sets and project who will have the greater impact as a pro.

I still have a lot of love for Suh, but maybe I shouldn't be surprised if McCoy becomes an impact NFL player as a rookie.

I guess if you need a DT, most can agree that both Suh/McCoy are at the top of the list.

Yea, it's fine to like Suh more, even by a definitive margin but to downgrade McCoy based on how good Ndamukong is just seems foolish. I understand why people are crazy about the big Cornhucker as I watched the Texas game live just like everyone else. Suh is #2 on my board by a very close margin. I think both have potential to develop into star Defensive Tackles that could both see multiple Pro Bowls.

My feeling is that McCoy brings slightly more value as a penetrating UT against these dominant pass games of today's NFL. He's going to force the QBs hand a bit more, he's going to force interior OL to play at his pace, he has the versatility to line up at every position on the line, and teams are going to be forced to double team him and open lanes for other defenders.

Now, Suh's the best & most physically dominant read-and-react DT I've ever seen. I just value the one playing style over the other. As players it'd be near impossible for me to make a distinction on who's better so in order to make a decision (for my board's sake) I look at the perceived value of each of their roles and value McCoy's just slightly more.

BaLLiN
04-06-2010, 12:52 PM
Yea, it's fine to like Suh more, even by a definitive margin but to downgrade McCoy based on how good Ndamukong is just seems foolish. I understand why people are crazy about the big Cornhucker as I watched the Texas game live just like everyone else. Suh is #2 on my board by a very close margin. I think both have potential to develop into star Defensive Tackles that could both see multiple Pro Bowls.

My feeling is that McCoy brings slightly more value as a penetrating UT against these dominant pass games of today's NFL. He's going to force the QBs hand a bit more, he's going to force interior OL to play at his pace, he has the versatility to line up at every position on the line, and teams are going to be forced to double team him and open lanes for other defenders.

Now, Suh's the best & most physically dominant read-and-react DT I've ever seen. I just value the one playing style over the other. As players it'd be near impossible for me to make a distinction on who's better so in order to make a decision (for my board's sake) I look at the perceived value of each of their roles and value McCoy's just slightly more.

You're right guys! Pudge does make me feel warm and fuzzy :)

fatmosh
04-09-2010, 09:47 AM
Just wanted to let everyone here know that this is a re-post of a post that turned into a VERY long thread over on the Official Bucs forum.

http://bbs.buccaneers.com/showthread.php?t=185310

(Either V-I-P stole it from there or they are the same poster, but our guy denied that.)

FUNBUNCHER
04-09-2010, 11:02 AM
What was McCoy's best game last season???

And Reggie White was a player who was never described as having a 'great first step' off the LOS, let's say, from the age of 27years old on forward.

ThePudge
04-09-2010, 11:07 AM
What was McCoy's best game last season???

And Reggie White was a player who was never described as having a 'great first step' off the LOS, let's say, from the age of 27years old on forward.

Reggie White had his share of dominant pass rush moves and incredible strength. Warren Sapp and Bryant Young carried their defense by penetrating quickly.

McCoy's best game in 2009 may have been against Texas or BYU. He dominated both of them and really made a huge impact on the (low) score of each game.