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J-Mike88
04-03-2010, 03:48 PM
We all know that some guys are guys who have more heart. It can often make a big difference.
But unlike a 40-yard, or vertical jump, you can't measure heart. Or can you?

Steve Smith, Carolina, has a ton of heart.
Some guys (Aaron Kampman & Clay Matthews) have high motors.

How would you rank/measure your top ten prospects in terms of heart, or motors? We hear scouts and reporters talk about it. Take a stab and tell us your top guys.

Supporting Caste
04-03-2010, 03:53 PM
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_bSk6yN_RU3Q/SylK_knkF0I/AAAAAAAAEj8/DhzNN3EFawQ/s400/temple_of_doom_flaming-heart.jpg

BaLLiN
04-03-2010, 03:58 PM
its kindof hard to think of guys that clearly stand out, but Sean Weatherspoon is my man when it comes to heart

http://www4.pictures.zimbio.com/gi/Baylor+v+Missouri+J5I3StabmgEl.jpg

SKim172
04-03-2010, 04:05 PM
The problem with "heart" or "motor" is that it's not just intangible, it's undefinable. That makes it completely subjective, so you get problems. Quarterback is yelling at his offensive line on the sidelines. Is he a) showing leadership, pumping up the team, encouraging their play, pointing out mistakes, making them better? Or is he b) being stuck-up and arrogant, obnoxious, blaming everybody else, and being a general ****? Because the observable results look pretty much the same.

Is a player a leader, bringing together the team, or does he just have a need to be popular, to be surrounded by others? When a lineman drives his man to the dirt after the whistle, is that "motor" or is he playing dirty? If he's cursing out opponents, is he "fiery" or "jack***"? When a tailback brags about how many yards he's going to put up, is he "competitive" or "diva"? When a receiver's arguing with his coaches, is that because "he's got so much passion for the game" or "he lacks respect for authority"?

Last preseason, Brett Favre, split out wide in the wildcat, threw a low illegal blindside block on a DB. The player was hurt, had to be carried off the field. The announcers were talking about how that showed Favre's love for the game and his toughness, even in his old age, that he was willing to go and do that. The foul was just because he was so inexperienced with blocking. Online bloggers, on the other hand, said no one's so inexperienced that he thinks throwing his body at the knees of an unsuspecting player won't cause injury, and that Favre was just being a dirtbag.

So intangibles are important, yes. But it's a tricky business to depend on tape and media reports to judge them. Generally, I try to avoid factoring in "heart" when assessing a player.

brasho
04-04-2010, 08:07 AM
We all know that some guys are guys who have more heart. It can often make a big difference.
But unlike a 40-yard, or vertical jump, you can't measure heart. Or can you?

Steve Smith, Carolina, has a ton of heart.
Some guys (Aaron Kampman & Clay Matthews) have high motors.

How would you rank/measure your top ten prospects in terms of heart, or motors? We hear scouts and reporters talk about it. Take a stab and tell us your top guys.

I think when you look at having a good motor at positions like DE or DT, you look at that player's tackle numbers.

Guys like Suh, Houston, and Price have 60+ tackles which tells you they track the ball well and run towards the ball. Guys with lesser motors might stand out with tackles for loss and sacks but their tackle numbers are much less.

Take Vernon Gholston of a few years back... he had something like 17 sacks, 20+ TFL and only 37 total tackles which meant if he wasn't making the play behind the LOS then he didn't make it at all. Big red flag for me.

On the same note, Trevor Laws of a couple years back had close to or over 100 tackles in his senior season but he also hasn't done much in the NFL (presumably from a lack of talent, not motor which ran very high in college).

brasho
04-04-2010, 08:10 AM
Something that can qualify as a measure of heart... in college did that player play special teams? and if so were they a standout? Guys that lead their teams in special teams tackles are generally long in the heart department but they aren't always starter quality. If you can find a starter that plays well on special teams (Steve Smith was a dynamite return man in college) then you probably have a player with heart.

zachsaints52
04-04-2010, 08:36 AM
Noone should come before Tebow. He played a game in high school on a broken leg.

brasho
04-04-2010, 08:38 AM
Noone should come before Tebow. He played a game in high school on a broken leg.

I remember that game, and as I recall he wasn't wearing shoes...and it was snowing! lol

zachsaints52
04-04-2010, 08:45 AM
I remember that game, and as I recall he wasn't wearing shoes...and it was snowing! lol

Umm its documented that he did....

frubulubu
04-04-2010, 08:52 AM
Theres a thin line between heart and stupid.

brasho
04-04-2010, 09:14 AM
Umm its documented that he did....

I think you missed my point. There are people that think the jury's still out on Tim Tebow and there are those that are already buying tickets to canton for St. Tebow's 2021 Hall-of-Fame induction ceremony.

zachsaints52
04-04-2010, 09:17 AM
I think you missed my point. There are people that think the jury's still out on Tim Tebow and there are those that are already buying tickets to canton for St. Tebow's 2021 Hall-of-Fame induction ceremony.

Then I guess you missed my original point. It said heart, and playing a game like football on a broken leg no matter the position shows alot of heart, and I don't think anyone can deny Tebows.

DJC
04-04-2010, 09:23 AM
Teams have a lot better perspective with this then fans will ever have. They get to conduct interviews with the players, talk to coaches, and talk with people around the program they came from. This is probably the cause of some unexpected drops on draft day, information that the public is unaware of but teams have red flags on.

It's the same thing with injuries, we don't have access to the full medical checks that the teams do. It's hard for fans to predict falls like Ali Highsmith and Erin Henderson.

PhinsRock
04-04-2010, 11:49 AM
The problem with "heart" or "motor" is that it's not just intangible, it's undefinable. That makes it completely subjective, so you get problems. Quarterback is yelling at his offensive line on the sidelines. Is he a) showing leadership, pumping up the team, encouraging their play, pointing out mistakes, making them better? Or is he b) being stuck-up and arrogant, obnoxious, blaming everybody else, and being a general ****? Because the observable results look pretty much the same.

Is a player a leader, bringing together the team, or does he just have a need to be popular, to be surrounded by others? When a lineman drives his man to the dirt after the whistle, is that "motor" or is he playing dirty? If he's cursing out opponents, is he "fiery" or "jack***"? When a tailback brags about how many yards he's going to put up, is he "competitive" or "diva"? When a receiver's arguing with his coaches, is that because "he's got so much passion for the game" or "he lacks respect for authority"?

Last preseason, Brett Favre, split out wide in the wildcat, threw a low illegal blindside block on a DB. The player was hurt, had to be carried off the field. The announcers were talking about how that showed Favre's love for the game and his toughness, even in his old age, that he was willing to go and do that. The foul was just because he was so inexperienced with blocking. Online bloggers, on the other hand, said no one's so inexperienced that he thinks throwing his body at the knees of an unsuspecting player won't cause injury, and that Favre was just being a dirtbag.

So intangibles are important, yes. But it's a tricky business to depend on tape and media reports to judge them. Generally, I try to avoid factoring in "heart" when assessing a player.

Great post. My answer is that it depends on the player.

Dan Marino for example. My opinion is bias being a Dolphin fan, but to me he is the greatest competitor of all time. Talent aside, he was one of the greatest leaders of all time, and knew how to get the most out of his WR's and O-line.

Dan yelled at his guys and coaches in the huddle and on the sideline, and blamed everyone else for his mistakes. That doesn't work for 99% of the guys in the NFL, especially not QB's, but it worked for him. He wasn't being a jerk, just a great competitor.

So it depends on who you are.

J-Mike88
04-04-2010, 01:20 PM
Dan Marino for example. My opinion is bias being a Dolphin fan, but to me he is the greatest competitor of all time. Talent aside, he was one of the greatest leaders of all time, and knew how to get the most out of his WR's and O-line.
Dan yelled at his guys and coaches in the huddle and on the sideline, and blamed everyone else for his mistakes. That doesn't work for 99% of the guys in the NFL, especially not QB's, but it worked for him. He wasn't being a jerk, just a great competitor.
Yeah, I loved Marino and I loved that about him, not being afraid to chew out the idiots whiffing on blocks or the WR's running the wrong route or not making an effort to catch a ball in traffic.
But non-Fins fans thought Marino was just an A-hole for yelling and bitching.
I like QBs and Point guards who take charge.

Jamon Meredith doesn't rate high in the heart department, and that's a big reason why he was mocked to the Packers a lot last year in round 2, and we ultimately got him in round 6. Then cut him.
Apparently he's pretty lazy. His punishment? Buffalo. Could have been worse: The Black Hole.

Bengals78
04-04-2010, 01:24 PM
First thing you have to do is make an incision down the chest, then crack open the breast plate, use a bypass machine or they will die. Separate the ribs and measure!

I would say the measurement of heart is best shown in the 4th quarter. Does the person hang their head if they're down by 6 with :15 to go, or does he get out there, fire up the team and give absolutely everything one play.
Does he play every game like he wont play another?

Just my take on it.

Iamcanadian
04-04-2010, 02:30 PM
Teams have a lot better perspective with this then fans will ever have. They get to conduct interviews with the players, talk to coaches, and talk with people around the program they came from. This is probably the cause of some unexpected drops on draft day, information that the public is unaware of but teams have red flags on.

It's the same thing with injuries, we don't have access to the full medical checks that the teams do. It's hard for fans to predict falls like Ali Highsmith and Erin Henderson.

Excellent points often ignored by posters. We simply don't have access to what pro teams do and never will.

waazup
04-04-2010, 03:38 PM
High motor guys off the top of my head:

Jerry Hughes
Derrick Morgan
Jared Odrick
Brandon Graham

There's definitely a correlation between highly rated Defensive line prospects and high motors.

niel89
04-04-2010, 04:27 PM
Heart is measured in miles. Miles and miles of heart.

http://l.yimg.com/eb/ymv/us/img/hv/photo/movie_pix/warner_brothers/the_replacements/_group_photos/gene_hackman4.jpg

killxswitch
04-05-2010, 02:44 PM
I would call this "mental toughness" but I guess it's the same thing.

brasho
04-05-2010, 05:09 PM
Then I guess you missed my original point. It said heart, and playing a game like football on a broken leg no matter the position shows alot of heart, and I don't think anyone can deny Tebows.

I know what you said, but like I said, you missed my point-Tebow isn't God despite the fact that most people think he has the big man on speed dial and I really don't care and I'm about as sick of the "Tebow walks on water" talk as the next guy.... You're from Richlands, so I'll give you a pass this time... my dad and my cousins often miss the point, too. I wonder if it's the elevation... or the fact that most people with family... errr, I mean "kin" (to be pronounced "kee-in") from Richlands have a family tree that more resembles a ladder.

brasho
04-05-2010, 05:11 PM
Then I guess you missed my original point. It said heart, and playing a game like football on a broken leg no matter the position shows alot of heart, and I don't think anyone can deny Tebows.

And by the way, I just finished playing my probable final football season with a herniated disk in my back and a shoulder that I couldn't get to sit right in the socket for the past 2 months... and it wasn't heart that made me do it, it was stupidity.

zachsaints52
04-05-2010, 05:17 PM
I know what you said, but like I said, you missed my point-Tebow isn't God despite the fact that most people think he has the big man on speed dial and I really don't care and I'm about as sick of the "Tebow walks on water" talk as the next guy.... You're from Richlands, so I'll give you a pass this time... my dad and my cousins often miss the point, too. I wonder if it's the elevation... or the fact that most people with family... errr, I mean "kin" (to be pronounced "kee-in") from Richlands have a family tree that more resembles a ladder.

And by the way, I just finished playing my probable final football season with a herniated disk in my back and a shoulder that I couldn't get to sit right in the socket for the past 2 months... and it wasn't heart that made me do it, it was stupidity.

This never became a "Tebow is God" thing like you implied, I stated a fact about Tebow that shows his heart, which he wears on his sleeve. Thats all I said, so when you completely miss that fact then you talked about nonsense that didn't pertain to the original topic. So therein lies the fact that you really don't know what your talking about. And about Richlands, we actually KNOW football, thats why we are good at it. And by telling us your "injury history" actually goes along with the topic the your Tebow quote, but its not stupid to play something you love.

OaklandRaider56
04-06-2010, 12:32 AM
I remember that game, and as I recall he wasn't wearing shoes...and it was snowing! lol

Lol. It was raining, not snowing, severly flooding the field. But it didn't seem to phase him, he glided around the field with ease... Almost as if he was walking on the water...

Bengals78
04-06-2010, 12:34 AM
Lol. It was raining, not snowing, severly flooding the field. But it didn't seem to phase him, he glided around the field with ease... Almost as if he was walking on the water...

I thought he split the water across the field to make it playable for the others and then proceeded to feed the entire stadium with but one fish...

frubulubu
04-06-2010, 12:48 AM
Tom Waddle is one of the guys I can relate to as having heart. He would go over the middle, and not be afraid to take the big hit. He was a WR, for the Bears. Tons of heart, not much physical talent.