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View Full Version : Mayock: Redskins should take Trent Williams > Okung?


akvikefan89
04-08-2010, 12:24 AM
http://blogs.nfl.com/2010/04/07/williams-could-be-mcnabbs-protector-at-no-4/


Williams could be McNabb’s protector at No. 4 (http://blogs.nfl.com/2010/04/07/williams-could-be-mcnabbs-protector-at-no-4/)

Posted: April 7th, 2010 | Mike Mayock

I’ve been doing a lot of thinking about the effect the Donovan McNabb trade will have on the draft, and the more I think about it the more I believe the Redskins will be a factor in the NFC East. They have a veteran quarterback now and they’re going to draft a left tackle with pick No. 4. And keep in mind, they could have a choice between Oklahoma State’s Russell Okung and Oklahoma’s Trent Williams, the two top tackles in the entire draft.

If so, they could go with Williams, even though he is generally regarded as the No. 2 left tackle behind Okung. Williams fits Washington’s scheme better. He’s a little bit more athletic for the Redskins’ zone-blocking scheme. I think Williams makes more sense for the Redskins at pick No. 4.

The other McNabb effect is on the quarterback situation with Jimmy Clausen, whose pro day I will be at on Friday in South Bend. He had a shot at going to the Redskins before the McNabb trade, but not anymore. The medicals and how he is evaluated off the field will go a long way in determining if he is going to be a top-10 pick.

Menardo75
04-08-2010, 12:26 AM
Williams has been the best tackle in this class imo. Okung is a very solid player but not really dominate. If it wasn't for Williams struggling along with the entire Oklahoma offense I think he would have been in this conversation a lot longer.

BaLLiN
04-08-2010, 12:26 AM
think it should read:

I’ve been doing a lot of thinking about the effect the Donovan McNabb trade will have on the draft, and the more I think about it the more I believe the Redskins will be a factor in the NFC East. They have a veteran quarterback now and they’re going to draft a left tackle with pick No. 4. And keep in mind, they could have a choice between Oklahoma State’s Russell Okung and Oklahoma’s Trent Williams, the two top tackles in the entire draft.

BaLLiN
04-08-2010, 12:31 AM
And i dont agree, although trent williams is the more NFL ready tackle, his ceiling is no where near as high as Okung's. It doesn't make sense for a team to bank on a prospect primarily because he could help them temporarily, you want a player at #4 to be a building block of the franchise.

Clarkw267
04-08-2010, 12:37 AM
And i dont agree, although trent williams is the more NFL ready tackle, his ceiling is no where near as high as Okung's. It doesn't make sense for a team to bank on a prospect primarily because he could help them temporarily, you want a player at #4 to be a building block of the franchise.

Actually I think you have that backwards.

Okung is the safe pick, with the higher floor.

Williams is more athletic, with a higher ceiling.

FrankGore
04-08-2010, 12:37 AM
I don't really agree with Trent Williams' meteoric rise up into the top 5-6, but the guy did put up a freakish performance at the combine and I'm sure teams are thinking they can coach him up into a prime LT. I don't think that warrants him over Okung, no matter what the scheme, but I wouldn't guarantee that it won't happen.

The thing I don't get about this angle is that Okung is no slouch himself. Maybe Williams looks faster on paper but I'd hardly say it's some big advantage or difference between the two.

Texas Homer
04-08-2010, 01:52 AM
I like Okung better as a prospect and if I were the Redskins, then I'd take Okung at #4.

gpngc
04-08-2010, 01:55 AM
http://blogs.nfl.com/2010/04/07/williams-could-be-mcnabbs-protector-at-no-4/


Williams could be McNabb’s protector at No. 4 (http://blogs.nfl.com/2010/04/07/williams-could-be-mcnabbs-protector-at-no-4/)

Posted: April 7th, 2010 | Mike Mayock

I’ve been doing a lot of thinking about the effect the Donovan McNabb trade will have on the draft, and the more I think about it the more I believe the Redskins will be a factor in the NFC East. They have a veteran quarterback now and they’re going to draft a left tackle with pick No. 4. And keep in mind, they could have a choice between Oklahoma State’s Russell Okung and Oklahoma’s Trent Williams, the two top tackles in the entire draft.

If so, they could go with Williams, even though he is generally regarded as the No. 2 left tackle behind Okung. Williams fits Washington’s scheme better. He’s a little bit more athletic for the Redskins’ zone-blocking scheme. I think Williams makes more sense for the Redskins at pick No. 4.

The other McNabb effect is on the quarterback situation with Jimmy Clausen, whose pro day I will be at on Friday in South Bend. He had a shot at going to the Redskins before the McNabb trade, but not anymore. The medicals and how he is evaluated off the field will go a long way in determining if he is going to be a top-10 pick.

I usually don't think Mayock is just talking to hear himself talk, but this is extremely stupid.

Okung is just as a good a fit in a zone-blocking system and a better LT than Williams is.

He's got better hands, better feet, and isn't one of those 335-pound behemoths that can't block in space.

Plus, the Redskins just traded for a QB who can - if you need him to - throw it 50 times. The most important area for a LT prospect to excel in is pass protection. Okung is clearly the superior pass blocker.

wogitalia
04-08-2010, 03:51 AM
I swear that Williams has become a workout warrior.

I can remember before his combine that the biggest knock was whether he had the quickness to play LT. I still think that is the biggest concern, 40 time regardless. I also think he will be solid down the road.

I also still feel safest with Okung at LT. I don't particularly like any of this years prospects, I just think he has the highest floor and the highest upside. I'm just not sure that either of those are particularly high...

AntoinCD
04-08-2010, 05:19 AM
I don't regard Williams as a workout warrior. Before the season he was seen as a top 5-10 pick by most and while he didn't have the best season he is still a top prospect. His combine showing may have boosted his stock but mock drafts that had him falling to the late 20s and even second round were very unrealistic IMO

JFLO
04-08-2010, 07:36 AM
I'm not sure if I completely agree that Williams is more athletic than Okung just yet b/c Okung is a monster himself. I like Williams' agility and nimbleness more, but Okung has exceptional footwork and is just a natural knee bender. He tends to lunge at some points, but that is something that can be fixed at the next level with good coaching.

Okung is still my 4th best prospect while Williams is somewhere in the 6-10 range.

SeanTaylorRIP
04-08-2010, 07:42 AM
I'll take either although I do tend to believe that Williams could be a better fit. TBH I'd rater trade down mid first and recoup some 2nd and 3rd round picks for depth. I'd love for Suh or McCoy to drop to 4 so we could trade down. Hell not that Denver would do it but I always thought about some sort of package swap in which we get #11 and Brandon Marshall while Denver gets #4. I hear all the moans but if we were picking outside of the top 10 I'd love to get Bruce Campbell here in D.C.

SenorGato
04-08-2010, 08:38 AM
I swear that Williams has become a workout warrior.

I can remember before his combine that the biggest knock was whether he had the quickness to play LT. I still think that is the biggest concern, 40 time regardless. I also think he will be solid down the road.

I also still feel safest with Okung at LT. I don't particularly like any of this years prospects, I just think he has the highest floor and the highest upside. I'm just not sure that either of those are particularly high...

The thing is he ran his 40 time fast, so he showed that he could play LT.

If the 'Skins are planning on staying smart they grab Okung. He's clearly the better player, especially at LT.

619
04-08-2010, 08:54 AM
The thing is he ran his 40 time fast, so he showed that he could play LT.

If the 'Skins are planning on staying smart they grab Okung. He's clearly the better player, especially at LT.

Not true. I'm not completely convinced Campbell is a natural fit at LT, despite his time and measurables. I agree that Williams' potential is on the left side, which is why he's getting this top five talk, just to suggest it's mainly due to a mere 40 time is illogical. His poor performance on that side last year was due to many things and from what I can tell, most of those things seem to be correctable with better coaching and with someone who can teach him better positioning, particularly in protecting the blind side. He appears to be a natural knee bender and he can move laterally sufficiently enough with great balance to remain there long-term.

DiG
04-08-2010, 08:55 AM
mayoks just tryin to get air time. this is silly. you dont take williams at 4. you take okung or trade down.

killxswitch
04-08-2010, 09:28 AM
mayoks just tryin to get air time. this is silly. you dont take williams at 4. you take okung or trade down.

Co-signed. I liked Mayock but he is starting to get old with this against the grain mentality. I doubt he actually thinks this.

K Train
04-08-2010, 09:31 AM
i do like trent williams, i dont think hes as much as a RT as people want to make him out to be....hes an incredible athlete and had some up and downs with the position switch to the left last year. but hes more of a start out a year or 2 on the right and bounce to the left, hes not nearly the pure RT prospect you hear about...hes not cherilus or loadholt

i like williams alot in his own right, but taking him over okung and bulaga is kind of stupid imo

Go_Eagles77
04-08-2010, 09:41 AM
If Tyson Jackson can go #3, this certainly wouldn't surprise me.

yourfavestoner
04-08-2010, 10:24 AM
Actually I think you have that backwards.

Okung is the safe pick, with the higher floor.

Williams is more athletic, with a higher ceiling.

Exactly. Okung:Jake Long as Williams:Ryan Clady.

Matthew Jones
04-08-2010, 10:37 AM
This would be a mistake IMO. Russell Okung has been considered the best tackle in the draft pretty much all year and now they're going to flip-flop two weeks ahead of the draft? I don't buy it.

RaiderNation
04-08-2010, 11:13 AM
Should be Okung and Bulaga being discussed IMO. Williams didnt do well at LT in college so why would you pick him #4 to play him there? You want a RT to be the pick at 4?

Babylon
04-08-2010, 11:18 AM
If Tyson Jackson can go #3, this certainly wouldn't surprise me.

Tyson Jackosn going 3rd doesnt mean it was the right move.

I personally think Okung/Bulaga/Williams are all about at the same level, there are things about all 3 that could be concerns. If they are looking for the next Chris Samuels in Washington i think Okung would most closely fit that bill. My guess would be:

Skins-Okung
Chiefs-Bulaga
Seahawks-Williams

Mr.Regular
04-08-2010, 11:23 AM
Trent Williams is so overrated. He had an awful year last year.
I wouldn't trust him at LT any more then Bruce Campbell. They both are prospects whose stock is based purely on potential and workout numbers. Sure Williams had a good junior season, but that was on the right side. When he was a LT he was pretty damn awful.

keylime_5
04-08-2010, 12:51 PM
They'll consider Williams but in the end I think they'll take the safer prospect in Okung who is no slouch himself when it comes to upside. Williams will go 5th, 6th, or at very worst 8th to the Raiders.

KLAUS
04-08-2010, 01:55 PM
http://blogs.nfl.com/2010/04/07/williams-could-be-mcnabbs-protector-at-no-4/


Williams could be McNabb’s protector at No. 4 (http://blogs.nfl.com/2010/04/07/williams-could-be-mcnabbs-protector-at-no-4/)

Posted: April 7th, 2010 | Mike Mayock

I’ve been doing a lot of thinking about the effect the Donovan McNabb trade will have on the draft, and the more I think about it the more I believe the Redskins will be a factor in the NFC East. They have a veteran quarterback now and they’re going to draft a left tackle with pick No. 4. And keep in mind, they could have a choice between Oklahoma State’s Russell Okung and Oklahoma’s Trent Williams, the two top tackles in the entire draft.

If so, they could go with Williams, even though he is generally regarded as the No. 2 left tackle behind Okung. Williams fits Washington’s scheme better. He’s a little bit more athletic for the Redskins’ zone-blocking scheme. I think Williams makes more sense for the Redskins at pick No. 4.

The other McNabb effect is on the quarterback situation with Jimmy Clausen, whose pro day I will be at on Friday in South Bend. He had a shot at going to the Redskins before the McNabb trade, but not anymore. The medicals and how he is evaluated off the field will go a long way in determining if he is going to be a top-10 pick.

like some of the other gentlemen have mentioned, mayock is doing this to provoke. i remember back about 10 years ago, the old-timers will remember this, mayock was all over israel raybon, a defenisve lineman from north alabama. raybon was a solid prospect, great frame, violent hands, good triangle numbers - but mayock was trying to make a name for himself, starting the raybon propaganda machine like he was the second coming of christ. i believe the steelers ended up drafting him to play the 5 technique but it didnt work out. i think orpheus roye was in the same steelers draft and he had a better career.

regarding williams vs. okung: williams reminds me of a prole from about 10 years ago, named jason odom - tackle from florida, athletic, prototype left tackle - i was trying to get odom drafted for my employers at the time, we didnt end up taking him, but anyway odom didnt work out.

okung i dont see anything compelling, i dont see anything that explodes from the view screen - i see a more athletic paul hutchins - hutchins was a big strong tackle out of northern or western or southern illinois , i dont remember from back in 93 - needless to say hutchins didnt work out - i think ron wolf ended up selecting that bomb-bomb

Go_Eagles77
04-08-2010, 02:01 PM
Tyson Jackosn going 3rd doesnt mean it was the right move.


I never said it was. I'm saying there has been much bigger surprises than Trent Williams going #4 in recent years. Who thought Levi Brown was a top 5 pick?

KLAUS
04-08-2010, 02:04 PM
sorry one other point on mayock - sometimes he makes some nice non-populistic evaluations, like in 2007 when he put beason ahead of willis. i was working at the time, and had beason on my rankings ahead of willis and would still hold to it - willis is in the league for 3 years and still cant wear the headset, making out of control plays - beason has gone in there and took control of the unit from the zero hour forward, wearing the headset, putting proles in line, etc.,. not to say willis is a bad prole - just that mayock showed some acuity with that ranking. he's just drawing to make a name for himself in that way, like i mentioned with raybon years ago and last year with ayers - its good to think against the majority, but to think against the majority for the sake of it compromises the rigor of his evaluations

KLAUS
04-08-2010, 02:25 PM
one more note on okung: for those that like comparisons and for the old timers what about okung and jamayne stephens the fat kid from carolina A&T i believe about 12 years ago?

one of my best comrades was all over stephens that year - the cowboys style of block wall was the hot trend, he thought stephens was in that same line, big frame, explosive hand slap

i dont know what went wrong with stephens - he went in the first if i recall correctly. maybe it was laziness, i remember i didnt like his feet - okung has better feet, but stephens was stronger - i think okung works with a certain apathy that stephens had - some proles can work with apathy, like gaither who came out in 2007, and look he turned into an astro-diamond - but okung doesnt have the athleticism of gaither.

i dont think that okung will be working a used car dealership in elfers, florida like jamayne stephens in 2 years, but i dont see the realist core behind the ideology.

Addict
04-08-2010, 02:26 PM
sorry one other point on mayock - sometimes he makes some nice non-populistic evaluations, like in 2007 when he put beason ahead of willis. i was working at the time, and had beason on my rankings ahead of willis and would still hold to it - willis is in the league for 3 years and still cant wear the headset, making out of control plays - beason has gone in there and took control of the unit from the zero hour forward, wearing the headset, putting proles in line, etc.,. not to say willis is a bad prole - just that mayock showed some acuity with that ranking. he's just drawing to make a name for himself in that way, like i mentioned with raybon years ago and last year with ayers - its good to think against the majority, but to think against the majority for the sake of it compromises the rigor of his evaluations

You did not just say Beason was a better prospect than Willis. And like any other draftnik, Mayock is hit and miss. He's been high on guys who have done nothing and been high on guys nobody believed in and proven right. Other times he founded, and drove a bandwagon right off a cliff, and again other times he's hit the bullseye and took the credit.

Acting like Mayock is always right is silly to the point of idiotic.

KLAUS
04-08-2010, 02:32 PM
You did not just say Beason was a better prospect than Willis. And like any other draftnik, Mayock is hit and miss. He's been high on guys who have done nothing and been high on guys nobody believed in and proven right. Other times he founded, and drove a bandwagon right off a cliff, and again other times he's hit the bullseye and took the credit.

Acting like Mayock is always right is silly to the point of idiotic.


addict in my previous post i said that mayock goes against the population just to go against the population, like i mentioned when he did with israel raybon about 10 years ago. no where did i say mayock was always right - i criticized him about raybon, but then i wanted to also give him a compliment about beason/willis in 2007.

and i think you forget, in 2007, willis before his pro day was about a 1c- 2a on almost everyone's board - and im not talking about internet boards, im talking about league boards - then he ran the 4.4 or whatever he ran in mississippi and that changed it. mayock adhered to the film like a fox's paw in honey and put beason ahead - you tell me why willis cant wear the headset after 3 years in the league? he wore it a few times in 2009, and he couldnt relay the signals, the secondary werent getting the coverages called in - they had to take the headset from willis and give it to mark roman because willis was murdering them.

this is not against willis as a player - but you want in the middle of your defense an intelligent player first of all, you want the alpha, you want to know who is in control of the situation - that is beason - willis is a bart scott with more athleticism, whereas beason is a ray lewis type - unfortunately people buy into the media propaganda and the false ontologies they let bloom

D-Unit
04-08-2010, 02:50 PM
addict in my previous post i said that mayock goes against the population just to go against the population, like i mentioned when he did with israel raybon about 10 years ago. no where did i say mayock was always right - i criticized him about raybon, but then i wanted to also give him a compliment about beason/willis in 2007.

and i think you forget, in 2007, willis before his pro day was about a 1c- 2a on almost everyone's board - and im not talking about internet boards, im talking about league boards - then he ran the 4.4 or whatever he ran in mississippi and that changed it. mayock adhered to the film like a fox's paw in honey and put beason ahead - you tell me why willis cant wear the headset after 3 years in the league? he wore it a few times in 2009, and he couldnt relay the signals, the secondary werent getting the coverages called in - they had to take the headset from willis and give it to mark roman because willis was murdering them.

this is not against willis as a player - but you want in the middle of your defense an intelligent player first of all, you want the alpha, you want to know who is in control of the situation - that is beason - willis is a bart scott with more athleticism, whereas beason is a ray lewis type - unfortunately people buy into the media propaganda and the false ontologies they let bloom
In just a few posts you already impress me more than 90% of our current posters, and that percentage is bound to only go up, I'm sure. I hope you stick around and continue to post here. You got my attention, that's for sure.

D-Unit
04-08-2010, 03:22 PM
I'm actually surprised Mayock mentions Trent Williams here and not Anthony Davis. You guys know, I've been saying Okung is not an elite OT for a long time here, so Mayock is late to the party. lol.

Washington should take Anthony Davis at #4. If not him, then Bulaga.

JFLO
04-08-2010, 03:23 PM
If Davis didn't have work ethic issues or anything of that nature, he would be #4, hell, he might even be #2 if it weren't for his laziness.

D-Unit
04-08-2010, 03:52 PM
If the Skins sign Flozell Adams, then Mayock will look like a genius again if the Skins draft Williams to be their starting RT. I knew there was a reason why he didn't mention Davis ahead of Okung. It just hit me now.

Addict
04-08-2010, 04:41 PM
a lot of smart things

you are correct sir. I got a lil' overexited there.

Dubberly
04-08-2010, 09:50 PM
[QUOTE=KLAUS;2111863]one more note on okung: for those that like comparisons and for the old timers what about okung and jamayne stephens the fat kid from carolina A&T i believe about 12 years ago?

one of my best comrades was all over stephens that year - the cowboys style of block wall was the hot trend, he thought stephens was in that same line, big frame, explosive hand slap

i dont know what went wrong with stephens - he went in the first if i recall correctly. maybe it was laziness, i remember i didnt like his feet - okung has better feet, but stephens was stronger - i think okung works with a certain apathy that stephens had - some proles can work with apathy, like gaither who came out in 2007, and look he turned into an astro-diamond - but okung doesnt have the athleticism of gaither.

i dont think that okung will be working a used car dealership in elfers, florida like jamayne stephens in 2 years, but i dont see the realist core behind the ideology.[/QUOTE

I've never seen a man hit the scouting trail with such passion Klaus. You're an inspiration for a whole generation of young scouts.

OaklandRaider56
04-08-2010, 09:52 PM
Williams is overrated. I see a slightly above average RT in the NFL.

Neil&Ben
04-08-2010, 09:56 PM
[QUOTE=KLAUS;2111863]one more note on okung: for those that like comparisons and for the old timers what about okung and jamayne stephens the fat kid from carolina A&T i believe about 12 years ago?

one of my best comrades was all over stephens that year - the cowboys style of block wall was the hot trend, he thought stephens was in that same line, big frame, explosive hand slap

i dont know what went wrong with stephens - he went in the first if i recall correctly. maybe it was laziness, i remember i didnt like his feet - okung has better feet, but stephens was stronger - i think okung works with a certain apathy that stephens had - some proles can work with apathy, like gaither who came out in 2007, and look he turned into an astro-diamond - but okung doesnt have the athleticism of gaither.

i dont think that okung will be working a used car dealership in elfers, florida like jamayne stephens in 2 years, but i dont see the realist core behind the ideology.[/QUOTE

I've never seen a man hit the scouting trail with such passion Klaus. You're an inspiration for a whole generation of young scouts.

I second that. Lino Maia and Klaus were such mentors to me when I started my scouting career.:)

Jeremy Goldberg
04-08-2010, 10:01 PM
[QUOTE=Dubberly;2112673]

I second that. Lino Maia and Klaus were such mentors to me when I started my scouting career.:)

What do you guys think of us all getting together with Klaus over a beer and sharing our memories?

Do you guys remember the look on Neil's face when he found out Jaquez Green's real name was D'Tanyian?

"I'm the Tanyian!!!" LOL!!!

619
04-08-2010, 11:04 PM
These n00bs have sabotaged a great thread. 'tis a shame.

Creek
04-08-2010, 11:28 PM
These n00bs have sabotaged a great thread. 'tis a shame.

Well, I know someone who's not invited to Klaus' for a beer.

Paranoidmoonduck
04-09-2010, 12:26 AM
addict in my previous post i said that mayock goes against the population just to go against the population, like i mentioned when he did with israel raybon about 10 years ago. no where did i say mayock was always right - i criticized him about raybon, but then i wanted to also give him a compliment about beason/willis in 2007.

and i think you forget, in 2007, willis before his pro day was about a 1c- 2a on almost everyone's board - and im not talking about internet boards, im talking about league boards - then he ran the 4.4 or whatever he ran in mississippi and that changed it. mayock adhered to the film like a fox's paw in honey and put beason ahead - you tell me why willis cant wear the headset after 3 years in the league? he wore it a few times in 2009, and he couldnt relay the signals, the secondary werent getting the coverages called in - they had to take the headset from willis and give it to mark roman because willis was murdering them.

this is not against willis as a player - but you want in the middle of your defense an intelligent player first of all, you want the alpha, you want to know who is in control of the situation - that is beason - willis is a bart scott with more athleticism, whereas beason is a ray lewis type - unfortunately people buy into the media propaganda and the false ontologies they let bloom

Hrm. I remember many people on the internet rating Patrick Willis highly, but I never saw a single person anywhere attach a #1 ranking (no matter whatever letter was attached to it) to him, much less remember any such reference to teams rating him that high (although I might have missed it). Not in that draft, which is was immensely strong at the top. I have no objection to you calling Willis primarily an athlete, his strength is obviously his tackling and speed, but I'm not entirely sure about calling Beason a "Ray Lewis type" (moreover, I'm not sure what that really means). Beason is a smart player, but he's not Ray Lewis or even close to Ray Lewis and I don't see the point in drawing the comparison. Can I call Willis a "Dick Butkus type"?

sidenote: If teams had Willis rated that high, how would rating him high equal buying into media propaganda?

As for the whole thread...everyone gets their panties in a bunch when Mayock goes against the grain, but that's largely because the grain usually gains so much momentum before most of the tape on these guys is watched. I for one know that Mayock knows far more about scouting football than I do, but I can also tell he's very particular to certain kinds of players. He's buys into a type which should be his right since the act of draft scouting effectively is not and cannot be simply rating players by talent or college production.

Personally, I like Trent Williams. I kept hearing over the past college season that he had laid an egg on the left side, but when I actually sat down and watched a bunch of his snaps, I didn't see that. I saw a guy who wasn't always totally comfortable switching to the left side. The question was never whether he was a good enough athlete to play the left side of the line, it was whether he was just particular to the right. Granted, I like Russell Okung more. He's not quite as quick to slide out, but he anchors better, his controls his backpedal better, he pulls better, he hits the second level better. He does most things better (this is, of course, only my opinion). Maybe all that is less important to Shanahan, who usually asks his tackles to get outside quickly on bootlegs and rarely pulls them, instead choosing to do so more with his interior linemen. Maybe that's what Mayock is on about, I don't know.

Honestly, the thing that really bugs me is how much people get bent out of shape when a team prefers one top 10 player over another (especially in a draft like this, where the 1st tier of players is so large). It's not that big a deviation in value, nor is value some sort of sacred thing. When your team drafts players like Darrius Heyward-Bey in the top 10, that's a breach of value.

KLAUS
04-09-2010, 04:52 AM
Moonduck:

I am referring to the inside linebacker rankings in year 2007, in which willis and beason were 1 and 2. When i am talking 1 c and 2a, that is the terminology we used for late 1st early 2nd, etc., Willis - on league boards - before he ran the 4.4 in mississippi was a 1c - 2a.

I to a degree agree with your point regarding the subtlety that should be used when making comparisons, when i alluded to beason and lewis. But i was discussing bart scott and ray lewis on the same unit to index the difference between willis and beason - beason is the head of that unit, im talking brain, im talking about beason discussing peppers lack of banshee-play in the media - those are crucial differences .

and when i am talking about buying into media propaganda i am talking about how 3 years later, willis is clearly mentioned as the great linebacker of that year, future hall of immortal, etc.,. whereas beason is forgotten - willis cant wear the headset there, he's a run and chase explosion athlete. I would argue that even timmons, the prole that pittsburgh took a few slots later, will be a better run and chase explosion athlete than willis, if he's not already. This is not taking away from willis, but the equation of him with some god-man is unwarranted and demonstrates the mimesis that occurs in evaluation, or in general, everywhere in life. and now only 3 years later, everyone is talking about how willis is the greatest lb prospect of the last decade, when no evaluations at the time stated that - how can people forget the evaluations only 3 years later? its a symptom of the lack of historical consciousness that most people in the western world have these days.

we know mayock goes against the majority, but the point is you have to understand something about scouting - sometimes people go against the majority just to make a name for themselves , hoping that you hit on your pick. like i talked about 10 years ago with mayock and israel raybon - if raybon hits, they will be calling you a genius forever. mayock did well for himself anyway, even though raybon failed.

i can talk about a lot of cases like that i've seen, which were completely absurd. Jason dunn, for example, a tight end out of eastern kentucky a few years years ago was explicitly called by one scout the greatest TE prospect ever - when dunn cut block reggie white in a preseason game, i had to hear for 2 years from that same scout how he had been right, how dunn had destroyed the great reggie white and was the greatest blocker in league history, because he was trying to justify his pick.

I've been guilty of overrating marginal proles myself, for example, a big strong nose tackle out of grambling named eric fontenot, violent hands, great base, could sit low in his stance like a prairie dog. Im still taunted for fontenot these days, colleagues will say to me: "i saw fontenot last week, working as a waiter in red lobster" - but unlike mayock with raybon, i wasnt trying to be heteroclite for the sake of being heteroclite - i thought fontenot had what was required.

thats what im cautious of with mayock. does he really like the prole as much as he says, or is he pulling the raybon is the second coming scheme again?

Hrm. I remember many people on the internet rating Patrick Willis highly, but I never saw a single person anywhere attach a #1 ranking (no matter whatever letter was attached to it) to him, much less remember any such reference to teams rating him that high (although I might have missed it). Not in that draft, which is was immensely strong at the top. I have no objection to you calling Willis primarily an athlete, his strength is obviously his tackling and speed, but I'm not entirely sure about calling Beason a "Ray Lewis type" (moreover, I'm not sure what that really means). Beason is a smart player, but he's not Ray Lewis or even close to Ray Lewis and I don't see the point in drawing the comparison. Can I call Willis a "Dick Butkus type"?

sidenote: If teams had Willis rated that high, how would rating him high equal buying into media propaganda?

As for the whole thread...everyone gets their panties in a bunch when Mayock goes against the grain, but that's largely because the grain usually gains so much momentum before most of the tape on these guys is watched. I for one know that Mayock knows far more about scouting football than I do, but I can also tell he's very particular to certain kinds of players. He's buys into a type which should be his right since the act of draft scouting effectively is not and cannot be simply rating players by talent or college production.

Personally, I like Trent Williams. I kept hearing over the past college season that he had laid an egg on the left side, but when I actually sat down and watched a bunch of his snaps, I didn't see that. I saw a guy who wasn't always totally comfortable switching to the left side. The question was never whether he was a good enough athlete to play the left side of the line, it was whether he was just particular to the right. Granted, I like Russell Okung more. He's not quite as quick to slide out, but he anchors better, his controls his backpedal better, he pulls better, he hits the second level better. He does most things better (this is, of course, only my opinion). Maybe all that is less important to Shanahan, who usually asks his tackles to get outside quickly on bootlegs and rarely pulls them, instead choosing to do so more with his interior linemen. Maybe that's what Mayock is on about, I don't know.

Honestly, the thing that really bugs me is how much people get bent out of shape when a team prefers one top 10 player over another (especially in a draft like this, where the 1st tier of players is so large). It's not that big a deviation in value, nor is value some sort of sacred thing. When your team drafts players like Darrius Heyward-Bey in the top 10, that's a breach of value.

Neil&Ben
04-09-2010, 06:42 AM
Dubberly, you looked like you had lost at least 30 pounds last time I saw you!!! What's your secret? I've been on the road all season looking for the next Robert Goff, i.e a zero technique that can hold the point, and I haven't had time to focus on my health.

Dubberly
04-09-2010, 06:46 AM
Neil&Ben, it's a simple secret. What I've done is set up a cookie jar in my kitchen. Each time I take a piece of food from my fridge, I make a rough estimate of the cost of the food, then I add that amount to the cookie jar. At the end of the month, I toss the cookie jar with contents into the garbage. Soon enough you get tired of losing $300-$400 a month, and you change your eating habits.

MikeTeel
04-09-2010, 06:56 AM
Neil&Ben, it's a simple secret. What I've done is set up a cookie jar in my kitchen. Each time I take a piece of food from my fridge, I make a rough estimate of the cost of the food, then I add that amount to the cookie jar. At the end of the month, I toss the cookie jar with contents into the garbage. Soon enough you get tired of losing $300-$400 a month, and you change your eating habits.

Great advice, +rep.

Paranoidmoonduck
04-09-2010, 04:21 PM
thats what im cautious of with mayock. does he really like the prole as much as he says, or is he pulling the raybon is the second coming scheme again?

That's definitely a fair concern, although I'm not sure that rating Trent Williams over Okung for a specific team would really qualify as him trying to shock people in the hope he can point to it a few years down the line as a sign of his genius. Not that he hasn't been guilty of such things in the past.

At any rate, thanks for clarifying your post.