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mellojello
04-09-2010, 12:31 PM
http://www.boston.com/news/local/massachusetts/articles/2010/01/24/the_untouchable_mean_girls/

http://www.boston.com/news/local/breaking_news/2010/03/holding_for_pho.html

A 15-year old freshman who just moved from Ireland to Massachusetts, Phoebe committed suicide after being subjected to harassment from other students at her high school. Apparently, Phoebe's younger sister found her body in the closet that she hung herself in and the mother has since shipped Phoebe's body back to Ireland for burial. Now, nine students are being charged with various crimes related to her death. A tragic event for everyone invloved. Should these "bullys" be punished and what can be done from preventing this in the future?

Addict
04-09-2010, 12:43 PM
Poor 12-year old who found her! As for her... tragic but why the heck would she not first just go to another school?

somewhat related: Am I the only one who sees

http://malvond.files.wordpress.com/2009/02/mean-girls-update1.jpg
when he reads about mean girls?

tjsunstein
04-09-2010, 12:43 PM
That's awful.

Prowler
04-09-2010, 12:44 PM
i think the IRA has some 'work to do' at that high school. i have a personal zero tolerance policy to face-to-face verbal abuse and this goes beyond that tenfold. every person at that dance should be expelled and every person who mocked her death on facebook/at school should suspended for 2 weeks, everyone involved needs to be sent into counseling, and forced to do a thousand hours of community service, and apologize to her family for not doing more to help her.

the school has the authority, hell kids in some schools don't graduate because their parents cheer for them too loudly during graduation, and others get expelled for even dumber things. i'm guessing the 'mean girls' parents and their money is what allows them to get away with this.

i don't have a problem if the district attorney wanted to be extreme and charge a couple ringleaders as adults and let them spend a year in jail followed by a couple years of probation. slamming kids' heads into lockers, bullying, intimidation, harrassment, etc is unacceptable. this isn't a TV show.

mellojello
04-09-2010, 12:54 PM
Poor 12-year old who found her! As for her... tragic but why the heck would she not first just go to another school?
http://malvond.files.wordpress.com/2009/02/mean-girls-update1.jpg
when he reads about mean girls?I was just editing in the part about her sister finding the body...apparently the mother had already complained to the school twice. From what I've read, she comitted suicide just after some kids in a car threw a can of Red Bull while she was walking home. One girl supposedly challenged her to do it too.

Addict
04-09-2010, 12:56 PM
bullying is just a byproduct of a society where self esteem is often derived from degrading other or assuming a comperatively superior position. To 'fix' this problem you need a heck of a lot more than community service. Until then this is just gonna get worse as this behaviour goes largely uncorrected.

Addict
04-09-2010, 12:58 PM
I was just editing in the part about her sister finding the body...apparently the mother had already complained to the school twice. From what I've read, she comitted suicide just after some kids in a car threw a can of Red Bull while she was walking home. One girl supposedly challenged her to do it too.

that's what I read too. But I think the red bull incident was really the straw that broke the camel's back (that's the saying in english, right?).

Also: they're charging these kids with statutory rape? I didn't see it mentioned anywhere that they raped her... Did I misread?

Prowler
04-09-2010, 12:59 PM
throwing one of the girls in jail for wrongful death, intimidation, whatever(i need favestoner's legal mind here) should help. throw the youtube fighting girls in jail, throw these girls in a mental institution and then jail. set the example. "cut their heads off and put them on a pike."

bored of education
04-09-2010, 12:59 PM
I live about a half hour from where this occurred and I have some coworkers from South Hadley. I will refrain from my thoughts about this becuase of the amount of morons I have heard talk about this. people blaming the girl that killed herself when it was the kids, the schools and the kids parents that allowed this to go on and on and on.

villagewarrior
04-09-2010, 01:03 PM
How about we teach kids to stand up for themselves? Obviously, I'm not condoning starting violence, but if a bully is going to be walking around slamming student's heads into lockers then someone needs to stand up and punch the bully in the mouth. When I was in school, there were only a few bullies and many many more that just went about their business. Has that changed?

CC.SD
04-09-2010, 01:03 PM
I can forgive a lot when it comes to kids being stupid ******* assholes, but I lost all sympathy when I read about how they were on facebook mocking her death...I mean look social pressure creates lots of insane situations, but once the girl is dead and you still haven't gotten a wake up call, you're on your own.

Prowler
04-09-2010, 01:16 PM
I live about a half hour from where this occurred and I have some coworkers from South Hadley.

if you had to characterize the area would you call it a normal, higher income, or lower income area?

Gay Ork Wang
04-09-2010, 01:17 PM
bullying is just a byproduct of a society where self esteem is often derived from degrading other or assuming a comperatively superior position. To 'fix' this problem you need a heck of a lot more than community service. Until then this is just gonna get worse as this behaviour goes largely uncorrected.
Quoted for the ************* truth

kalbears13
04-09-2010, 01:17 PM
bullying is just a byproduct of a society where self esteem is often derived from degrading other or assuming a comperatively superior position. To 'fix' this problem you need a heck of a lot more than community service. Until then this is just gonna get worse as this behaviour goes largely uncorrected.

that's what I read too. But I think the red bull incident was really the straw that broke the camel's back (that's the saying in english, right?).

Also: they're charging these kids with statutory rape? I didn't see it mentioned anywhere that they raped her... Did I misread?

It's hard to take what you write seriously when all I see is Pedobear in your avatar.

Addict
04-09-2010, 01:24 PM
It's hard to take what you write seriously when all I see is Pedobear in your avatar.

thanks, muppet guy.

Prowler
04-09-2010, 01:25 PM
i'm guessing that the statutory rape is due to her being underaged. its probably the football players she was going out with. i'd need more information though.

TimD
04-09-2010, 01:27 PM
wow this is absolutely terrible

TitanHope
04-09-2010, 01:28 PM
The students should be expelled, with marks on their permanent records that will show up on their high school transcripts. The lack of action by the faculty is alarming.

The charges filed seem fair. Whether or not they're guilty, we'll allow due process to take place. In the very least, they deserve having the **** scared out of them.

Also: they're charging these kids with statutory rape? I didn't see it mentioned anywhere that they raped her... Did I misread?

Statutory rape is having consentual sex with a minor, but I'm not exactly sure on the specifics of where the line is drawn age-wise. I think it's basically up to the parents to decide to press charges. One guy was 18, a legal adult in the States, who has a statutory rape charge, but the other was 17, legally still a minor in the States. So perhaps they've concluded that she felt forced into having sex with the 17 year old because she was threatened by him and his clique - maybe that could fall under the parameters of statutory rape?

Addict
04-09-2010, 01:29 PM
i'm guessing that the statutory rape is due to her being underaged. its probably the football players she was going out with. i'd need more information though.

I understand that someone's gotta pay, but if she agreed to it it's just stupid to go after them on statutory rape at this point. They're kids. Punish them for driving her to suicide, but don't venture into statutory rape because she had an older boyfriend.

@TitanHope -

Yeah thanks to Law & Order: SVU I know what statutory rape is, but like I said above it's just silly to go for it at this point. Again, those kids need to pay for what they've done. But suddenly charging an 18 year old guy for having sex with his 17 year old girlfriend (I assume it was consentual) is just backwards and silly.

bored of education
04-09-2010, 01:34 PM
if you had to characterize the area would you call it a normal, higher income, or lower income area?

Its your average American town, high mid and low income. one trait is that it is very political where the athletes get the attention and breaks and have a lot of power in HS. Guys still go to bars in the areas talking about the good ole days of playing football in 1976 and how awesome they were.

so its a normal town which is not a good thing

mellojello
04-09-2010, 01:35 PM
How about we teach kids to stand up for themselves? Obviously, I'm not condoning starting violence, but if a bully is going to be walking around slamming student's heads into lockers then someone needs to stand up and punch the bully in the mouth. When I was in school, there were only a few bullies and many many more that just went about their business. Has that changed?This is a football forum, so that means most of us have played sports and may have a competitive or fighting spirt. How about those kids, perhaps like Phoebe, that don't know how to stand up for themselves? Her and her mother were from an entirely different country.

Gay Ork Wang
04-09-2010, 01:36 PM
I understand that someone's gotta pay, but if she agreed to it it's just stupid to go after them on statutory rape at this point. They're kids. Punish them for driving her to suicide, but don't venture into statutory rape because she had an older boyfriend.

@TitanHope -

Yeah thanks to Law & Order: SVU I know what statutory rape is, but like I said above it's just silly to go for it at this point. Again, those kids need to pay for what they've done. But suddenly charging an 18 year old guy for having sex with his 17 year old girlfriend (I assume it was consentual) is just backwards and silly.
she was 15


EDIT:

those are the girls and guys accused:

http://media.masslive.com/breakingnews/photo/longe-mullins-velazquezjpg-341eeda7c5098a04_large.jpg
http://media.masslive.com/breakingnews/photo/sean-mulveyhill-kayla-narey-austin-renaud-4a496e1ebdef9ff5_large.jpg

Addict
04-09-2010, 01:39 PM
she was 15

doesn't change anything IMO. If they didn't have a problem with it while she was alive it's just stupid and convenient to make a fuss about it now. Again, I can't stress this enough: the kids who did this should be punished for what they did to drive her to kill herself. But to go for a statutory rape charge is just silly legal convience and does nothing to help justice be served.

Gay Ork Wang
04-09-2010, 01:41 PM
it is. but i can see how the parents just lash out and want to punish anyone possible

Addict
04-09-2010, 01:55 PM
it is. but i can see how the parents just lash out and want to punish anyone possible

oh I can definately understand why the parents want to sue anyone and everyone right now. But as someone emotionally detached from all this, I can't say that I agree.

BaLLiN
04-09-2010, 01:56 PM
she was 15


EDIT:

those are the girls and guys accused:

http://media.masslive.com/breakingnews/photo/longe-mullins-velazquezjpg-341eeda7c5098a04_large.jpg
http://media.masslive.com/breakingnews/photo/sean-mulveyhill-kayla-narey-austin-renaud-4a496e1ebdef9ff5_large.jpg

lolz school bullies

Addict
04-09-2010, 02:03 PM
those are the girls and guys accused:

http://media.masslive.com/breakingnews/photo/longe-mullins-velazquezjpg-341eeda7c5098a04_large.jpg
http://media.masslive.com/breakingnews/photo/sean-mulveyhill-kayla-narey-austin-renaud-4a496e1ebdef9ff5_large.jpg

I thought there were nine of them.

also: I'd be in for some statutory rape with the middle one of the bottom row...

BaLLiN
04-09-2010, 02:07 PM
Addict, women get conjugal visits too!

B-Dawk
04-09-2010, 02:07 PM
you know the one in color is the queen bee, just looks like a *****

BaLLiN
04-09-2010, 02:09 PM
you know the one in color is the queen bee, just looks like a *****

yeah haha im pretty sure its that too. This has been all over the news in new jersey too.

Addict
04-09-2010, 02:11 PM
you know the one in color is the queen bee, just looks like a *****

please don't read anything into this, but she kinda looks like the female version of Tim Tebow.

http://sports.rightpundits.com/wp-content/photos/Tim_Tebow.jpg

TitanHope
04-09-2010, 02:13 PM
I understand that someone's gotta pay, but if she agreed to it it's just stupid to go after them on statutory rape at this point. They're kids. Punish them for driving her to suicide, but don't venture into statutory rape because she had an older boyfriend.

@TitanHope -

Yeah thanks to Law & Order: SVU I know what statutory rape is, but like I said above it's just silly to go for it at this point. Again, those kids need to pay for what they've done. But suddenly charging an 18 year old guy for having sex with his 17 year old girlfriend (I assume it was consentual) is just backwards and silly.

I'm thinking this case isn't as simple as age, because while I'm not sure with their district, typically if the guy/girl is less than 3 years older than the minor and the girl is over 14 years old, they'll deem that there's been no crime or the penalty is far less severe - called the "Romeo and Juliet" law (Hooray Wikipedia!). Statutory rape isn't forced, but it is coerced. These guys may not've been old enough to fall under age restrictions or forced themselves on her, but they could have very well pressured her into consenting because of the clique they ran with and how they affected the girl's life. Phoebe Prince was a 15 year old freshman, and the guys were 18 and 17 year old upperclassmen. If they used their positions as upperclassmen and their influence in their clique to coerce sex from Prince, preying on her desire to fit in and not be bullied, then it's statutory rape. Her giving consent doesn't exempt the guys from anything. Besides, I don't think she was BF/GF with either of them, since it's described as just a "brief dating relationship" with one of them, and they didn't mention the other guy as having any romantic relationship with her at all. The parents may not've even known she was sexually active with either of the two, and through interviews with the students it was found out, and the police decided to pursue the charges. Parents may not've even asked for them to be charged, as I believe the district can levy the charges themselves.

But yeah, it's pretty subjective, and it's inaccurate to speculate without having all the information.

Dr. Gonzo
04-09-2010, 02:15 PM
Yet another case of bad parenting. Addict is right, its a society thing. The society we live in is seriously ****** up. This are going to get worse before they get better because it seems in this society being a ******* moron is the way to the top.

mellojello
04-09-2010, 02:16 PM
you know the one in color is the queen bee, just looks like a *****Good call, the girl to her left looks like the one doing the dirty work though.

YAYareaRB
04-09-2010, 03:34 PM
I can't even imagine being pestered everyday by people with those stupid boston accents.

Whistler6
04-09-2010, 03:37 PM
Jail time for 15 year olds who are probably going to never forget the fact that they might be reponsible for a girl killing herself, is not the way to go. Unless there truly was intent to "destroy" this girl by how they bullied, I would choose something other than a prison cell.

Either way, this is a really sad story. I hate reading **** like this. Hopefully her family recovers. Not being personally connected, I can't connect to this story at all. Still, this situation should be used as an example for future prevention.

YAYareaRB
04-09-2010, 03:40 PM
No Jail time is just the trick. These dumbass kids need to learn you can't do **** like this and run to mommy and daddy when **** hits the fan. I ******* hate kids like this. Im glad my high school was nothing like this.

Whistler6
04-09-2010, 03:48 PM
No Jail time is just the trick. These dumbass kids need to learn you can't do **** like this and run to mommy and daddy when **** hits the fan. I ******* hate kids like this. Im glad my high school was nothing like this.

Yeah, your right...I take that back. Lock the girls up in a prison cell with real criminals, and scare the hell out of them. If they are responsible, punish them as severely as possible. The parents need to take some kind of responsibility for this. Damnit.

Brent
04-09-2010, 03:56 PM
I hate reading **** like this
I have to agree with this, wholeheartedly.

Thumper
04-09-2010, 04:18 PM
I'm going to respond via request of mellojello, I am not coming in here to start anything, trivialize a death or make this terrible event seem insignificant, I'm just being honest as a highschool student.

Well first off, I'd like to say that I don't approve of bullying or anything like that but I don't really feel any empathy for the girl. It is a terrible thing that happened but I am actually in high school and I see people making fun of others and it doesn't get to them. I am a person who believes things like you can only be bullied if you let it get to you, you can only be used if you're dumb enough to let it happen, you can only be controlled if you let it happen etc. etc. However the actions of the 'mean girls' are completely unacceptable but is making fun of a girl really a crime? Yeah, its terrible but they didn't force her to commit suicide, the girl did that on her own. Should they have mocked her death on facebook? No, absolutely not, they're just a bunch of tasteless pieces of ****, is that a crime? Unfortunately not. I don't know any of them nor do I have any connection to this so I really don't care. A terrible thing happened, the girls are scum and deserve to be punished (but they didn't do anything legally wrong) but honestly can they really be blamed for a choice the girl made? I don't think so, and technically they never committed a crime, they're just crappy human beings.

ATLDirtyBirds
04-09-2010, 04:23 PM
I'm going to pretty much entirely agree with Thumper.

Prowler
04-09-2010, 04:37 PM
i'm going to disagree completely. there is no law that says you have to be friends with everybody, however obviously this one went too far. they hounded her, physically violent to the girl who told a reporter about it afterwards, and mocked her death afterwards. what they did to her in life is a crime and not acceptable. kids have zero training in how to interact with other people, and its time that changed. set the example now, legislate or better enforce anti-bullying, and things may slowly change. just because some people are strong enough to not let it affect them, doesn't mean that the 'weaker' ones don't deserve protection against it.

senormysterioso
04-09-2010, 04:40 PM
I'm going to respond via request of mellojello, I am not coming in here to start anything, trivialize a death or make this terrible event seem insignificant, I'm just being honest as a highschool student.

Well first off, I'd like to say that I don't approve of bullying or anything like that but I don't really feel any empathy for the girl. It is a terrible thing that happened but I am actually in high school and I see people making fun of others and it doesn't get to them. I am a person who believes things like you can only be bullied if you let it get to you, you can only be used if you're dumb enough to let it happen, you can only be controlled if you let it happen etc. etc. However the actions of the 'mean girls' are completely unacceptable but is making fun of a girl really a crime? Yeah, its terrible but they didn't force her to commit suicide, the girl did that on her own. Should they have mocked her death on facebook? No, absolutely not, they're just a bunch of tasteless pieces of ****, is that a crime? Unfortunately not. I don't know any of them nor do I have any connection to this so I really don't care. A terrible thing happened, the girls are scum and deserve to be punished (but they didn't do anything legally wrong) but honestly can they really be blamed for a choice the girl made? I don't think so, and technically they never committed a crime, they're just crappy human beings.

I couldn't agree more. Obviously the kids picking on her are little ass-holes, but there are little ass-holes at every high school in every city in every state of the country and probably the world, and there always has been. I think it's sad that we live in a world where we can't even hold somebody accountable for taking their own life. Do we as a nation really want to say that people have a right to go through their life without having their feelings hurt?? I'm sorry, but I think that's absurd. If the school wants to expel them, great, I think that's a fair response. If the mother wants to take civil action and file a wrongful death suit, also great...but criminal charges? No. People have become so self involved, and overly-sensitive that they go to the police because a person offends them, or hurts their feelings...trust me, we get calls all the time about name calling etc (disorderly conduct tickets for everybody!) I think we as a nation need to toughen up. Suicide is an obvious expression of a character flaw in my opinion, with VERY few exceptions. It is a display of weakness as far as I'm concerned. It sucks that kids were picking on her, but for God's sake, they're not criminals.

Prowler
04-09-2010, 04:57 PM
One girl was interviewed on camera, and she said what was common knowledge: that bullies were stalking the corridors of South Hadley High.

As soon as the TV crew was out of sight, one of the Mean Girls came up and slammed the girl who had been interviewed against a locker and punched her in the head.

that girl is a criminal

Thumper
04-09-2010, 05:04 PM
i'm going to disagree completely. there is no law that says you have to be friends with everybody, however obviously this one went too far. they hounded her, physically violent to the girl who told a reporter about it afterwards, and mocked her death afterwards. what they did to her in life is a crime and not acceptable. kids have zero training in how to interact with other people, and its time that changed. set the example now, legislate or better enforce anti-bullying, and things may slowly change. just because some people are strong enough to not let it affect them, doesn't mean that the 'weaker' ones don't deserve protection against it.

Well I agree that its terrible. But when you make a law about bullying where do you draw the line? It all sounds great in theory, but what would qualify as a crime? Because hardly any bullying results in suicides, in fact I would reckon that its less than 1%. Would you only punish people after someone dies? Its a little too late at that point, do you suspend someone every time some little freshman calls another kid a name? There are no standards and you're only going to run into trouble. Plus, there are measures that girl could've taken. She could've talked to a teacher, she could've talked to the deans, she could've done a number of things, its not like the kids have free reign at that school. At my school there are measures that can be taken and kids can get in serious trouble for harassing others. The kids are terrible people and they deserve to have their asses kicked a couple times over, but in reality they broke no laws. Could you implement anti-bullying laws? Sure but thats just a logistics nightmare and there are already rules at the school. Something terrible happened, dumb things were done and ultimately it lead to a fatal decision by a girl, but there were no laws broken so its hard to punish them effectively, the best you can hope for is that this weighs on their consciences for the rest of their lives.

senormysterioso
04-09-2010, 05:09 PM
that girl is a criminal

That's not bullying though, that's assault. I'm talking about (and I think Thumper is too) the act of bullying. Calling somebody names, taunting, teasing, etc.

RaiderNation
04-09-2010, 05:11 PM
Some ****** up **** here. This is why I dont try to bully people unless they mess with me. Theres no reason for it if people mind their own business

Thumper
04-09-2010, 05:14 PM
that girl is a criminal

Well you can't punish her more severely just because she is involved in something like this. You have to treat it like an individual event IMO and if that really happened, you RPC her or you suspend her. Just like you would any other student who attacked another student or someone who got into a fight.

nrk
04-09-2010, 05:17 PM
Well I agree that its terrible. But when you make a law about bullying where do you draw the line? It all sounds great in theory, but what would qualify as a crime? Because hardly any bullying results in suicides, in fact I would reckon that its less than 1%. Would you only punish people after someone dies? Its a little too late at that point, do you suspend someone every time some little freshman calls another kid a name? There are no standards and you're only going to run into trouble. Plus, there are measures that girl could've taken. She could've talked to a teacher, she could've talked to the deans, she could've done a number of things, its not like the kids have free reign at that school. At my school there are measures that can be taken and kids can get in serious trouble for harassing others. The kids are terrible people and they deserve to have their asses kicked a couple times over, but in reality they broke no laws. Could you implement anti-bullying laws? Sure but thats just a logistics nightmare and there are already rules at the school. Something terrible happened, dumb things were done and ultimately it lead to a fatal decision by a girl, but there were no laws broken so its hard to punish them effectively, the best you can hope for is that this weighs on their consciences for the rest of their lives.

41 states already have anti-bullying laws.

Prowler
04-09-2010, 05:18 PM
good points, so i'd draw the line on bullying with the teachers, families, etc that knew and did nothing. the girl had to of told somebody. might as well make the law comprehensive. if teachers, police, etc knew about bullying and did not take appropriate measures to stop it then fire them, fine them, throw them in jail for negligence for the children that they are obligated to protect.

light a fire under the teachers and put their freedom/money on the line. the next a time a kid gets shoved against a locker and beaten, the teacher will be thinking about whether or not they'll lose their job. i'm going to guess that would help heighten standards and attention to bullying.

as for the kids, with the exception of extreme cases, all they really need is counseling. but if segregation is needed to protect a student, then expel them or make them go to alternative school.

RaiderNation
04-09-2010, 05:22 PM
she was 15


EDIT:

those are the girls and guys accused:

http://media.masslive.com/breakingnews/photo/longe-mullins-velazquezjpg-341eeda7c5098a04_large.jpg
http://media.masslive.com/breakingnews/photo/sean-mulveyhill-kayla-narey-austin-renaud-4a496e1ebdef9ff5_large.jpg

Seem like they are the "cool kids" at school probably. The guy on the bottom right looks like he gets his **** pushed in

Thumper
04-09-2010, 05:36 PM
41 states already have anti-bullying laws.

Okay, still you have the trouble having to try and define what is a 'criminal bully' and like I said, that is a big hassle. Its a big problem, how bad is bad enough to put something on their permanent records for the rest of their lives? Are they stupid kids or are they criminals? Are you going to put something on their permanent records that could probably be chalked up to being a snooty, immature teenager? Where is the line, at what point does it cross over from immaturity to being a criminals? Based on reports I'm reading, the girls at this school threatened her and called her names, thats standard bullying stuff, is that really criminal? Beating the daylights out of someone would be criminal but there is no evidence they ever did that, so are they criminals?

Gay Ork Wang
04-09-2010, 05:51 PM
I'm going to respond via request of mellojello, I am not coming in here to start anything, trivialize a death or make this terrible event seem insignificant, I'm just being honest as a highschool student.

Well first off, I'd like to say that I don't approve of bullying or anything like that but I don't really feel any empathy for the girl. It is a terrible thing that happened but I am actually in high school and I see people making fun of others and it doesn't get to them. I am a person who believes things like you can only be bullied if you let it get to you, you can only be used if you're dumb enough to let it happen, you can only be controlled if you let it happen etc. etc. However the actions of the 'mean girls' are completely unacceptable but is making fun of a girl really a crime? Yeah, its terrible but they didn't force her to commit suicide, the girl did that on her own. Should they have mocked her death on facebook? No, absolutely not, they're just a bunch of tasteless pieces of ****, is that a crime? Unfortunately not. I don't know any of them nor do I have any connection to this so I really don't care. A terrible thing happened, the girls are scum and deserve to be punished (but they didn't do anything legally wrong) but honestly can they really be blamed for a choice the girl made? I don't think so, and technically they never committed a crime, they're just crappy human beings.

The thing i got to say to this: Why would you have to withstand this? I totally think there would be other people who would not kill themselves, but there are people that will do that. Everyone is different and takes stuff like that differently. Mobbing is a crime. It is psychological assault.

Dr. Gonzo
04-09-2010, 05:58 PM
The thing i got to say to this: Why would you have to withstand this? I totally think there would be other people who would not kill themselves, but there are people that will do that. Everyone is different and takes stuff like that differently. Mobbing is a crime. It is psychological assault.

Exactly. '**** happens' is a horrible stance to take on things like this. Yes nobody forced her to kill herself but her life surely was a living hell or else she wouldn't just up and kill herself for kicks. The kids involved are ****** people, worse are their parents for allowing that kind of behavior and while I have no prove I am sure at times encouraging it. Nobody should have to live a life they hate and put up with being tormented by others. I understand that bullying to a degree helps kids grow up but clearly some people take that **** way too far.

mellojello
04-09-2010, 06:15 PM
I couldn't agree more. Obviously the kids picking on her are little ass-holes, but there are little ass-holes at every high school in every city in every state of the country and probably the world, and there always has been. I think it's sad that we live in a world where we can't even hold somebody accountable for taking their own life. Do we as a nation really want to say that people have a right to go through their life without having their feelings hurt?? I'm sorry, but I think that's absurd. If the school wants to expel them, great, I think that's a fair response. If the mother wants to take civil action and file a wrongful death suit, also great...but criminal charges? No. People have become so self involved, and overly-sensitive that they go to the police because a person offends them, or hurts their feelings...trust me, we get calls all the time about name calling etc (disorderly conduct tickets for everybody!) I think we as a nation need to toughen up. Suicide is an obvious expression of a character flaw in my opinion, with VERY few exceptions. It is a display of weakness as far as I'm concerned. It sucks that kids were picking on her, but for God's sake, they're not criminals.senormysterioso, we live in a tough world and there's no doubt that we can't protect everyone from hurt feelings. Bullying has always happened and always will. However, the purpose of school is attaining an education and as a society, at a minimum, it is the educational system's responsibility to ensure a student's safety especially while at school.

My father taught me from a young age that people are generally weak and afraid of conflict and controversy. It's the reason why anytime there are signs of trouble, people turn their heads and go in the opposite direction.

In this case, it was at least 8 on 1 and in reality, there may be even more kids involved in bullying her. I don't agree that Pheobe's suicide was a demonstration of her "weakness" or her "flaws." In my eyes, real weakness is when you need to pick on those who are unable to defend themselves. Real strength is defending those that aren't able to defend themselves, even if your actions are unpopular at that moment, because it is the right thing to do. I've dealt with plenty of bullys in my time, even mob mentality, and I speak from experience when I say the majority of bullys lack any true courage. Unfortunately, nobody had the balls to take a stand.

Personally, I'm thrilled that the DA is pursuing criminal charges. At a minimum, it's going to scare the **** of these punks and whatever the consequenses, it will pale in comparison to the aftermath Pheobe's family will deal with.

nrk
04-09-2010, 06:18 PM
Okay, still you have the trouble having to try and define what is a 'criminal bully' and like I said, that is a big hassle. Its a big problem, how bad is bad enough to put something on their permanent records for the rest of their lives? Are they stupid kids or are they criminals? Are you going to put something on their permanent records that could probably be chalked up to being a snooty, immature teenager? Where is the line, at what point does it cross over from immaturity to being a criminals? Based on reports I'm reading, the girls at this school threatened her and called her names, thats standard bullying stuff, is that really criminal? Beating the daylights out of someone would be criminal but there is no evidence they ever did that, so are they criminals?

You don't have the trouble to define what is bullying, since it's right there in the law.

1. “Harassment, intimidation, and bullying” means any gesture, written or verbal expression, or physical act that a reasonable person should know will harm another student, damage another student’s property, place another student in reasonable fear of harm to the student’s person or damage to the student’s property, or insult or demean any student or group of students in such a way as to disrupt or interfere with the school’s educational mission or the education of any student. “Harassment, intimidation, and bullying” include, but are not limited to, a gesture or written, verbal, or physical act;

That's part of a statute from Oklahoma regarding bullying.

And yes, just threatening someone is against the law. Doesn't matter if it's at school or your work place.

Addict
04-09-2010, 06:37 PM
Well I agree that its terrible. But when you make a law about bullying where do you draw the line? It all sounds great in theory, but what would qualify as a crime? Because hardly any bullying results in suicides, in fact I would reckon that its less than 1%. Would you only punish people after someone dies? Its a little too late at that point, do you suspend someone every time some little freshman calls another kid a name?

I think you're being awfully nonchalant about this. It doesn't sound great, it makes sense. It's not just about the suicides, it's about the psychological scars it leaves behind, about the inferiority complexes and lifelong issues kids who are severely bullied have to deal with. You can't just go "eh well", shrug and walk away, this is a very, very serious problem that has to be adressed because it's getting out of hand with kids these days increasingly interconnected through cellphones and the internet, it's possible to terrorize someone constantly with relatively little effort. And there is a vast difference between minor name calling and systematic physical and psychological abuse. For god's sake if this was done to her by an adult we'd be calling for the death penalty by now.


There are no standards and you're only going to run into trouble. Plus, there are measures that girl could've taken. She could've talked to a teacher, she could've talked to the deans, she could've done a number of things, its not like the kids have free reign at that school. At my school there are measures that can be taken and kids can get in serious trouble for harassing others.

she was probably terrified. And again you seem to have little to no regard for how deep this kind of bullying can go. How often do people who are stalked, threatened or otherwise terrorized by others go to the cops? She obviously felt alienated and it's quite possible she felt there were grave consequences if she were to reach out. Again I think you're mistaking a little minor name-calling with systematic psychological torture. It's not the same thing.


The kids are terrible people and they deserve to have their asses kicked a couple times over, but in reality they broke no laws. Could you implement anti-bullying laws? Sure but thats just a logistics nightmare and there are already rules at the school. Something terrible happened, dumb things were done and ultimately it lead to a fatal decision by a girl, but there were no laws broken so its hard to punish them effectively, the best you can hope for is that this weighs on their consciences for the rest of their lives.

Now you're just not making any sense. Of course there are things you can do! For starters their actions can be directly related to this girl taking her own life. They even showed no remorse and even mocked her death afterwards. Just to let this slide and hope they'll feel bad and light a candle in church is just ******* insane. Your suggestion to just say "oh well, I guess she was too weak-willed to live" is just so insensitive, so completely devoid of empathy that I honestly struggle to accurately articulate my thoughts on it. What you're saying is that it's ok to actively participate in acts of psychological torture, stalking and physical abuse, since if the victim of those actions takes his or her own life, it's ok. That's some logic right there.

I'm going to pretty much entirely agree with Thumper.

I'm hoping you rethink your position on this.

I couldn't agree more. Obviously the kids picking on her are little ass-holes, but there are little ass-holes at every high school in every city in every state of the country and probably the world, and there always has been.

Little assholes? Seriously? Stalking her while subjecting her to verbal and physical abuse constitites little assholes to you? So as long as you don't personally make the noose and toss her off the balcony it's no biggie?

You know what a little asshole is? My classmate when I was 10 who picked on me for having 'dumb hair' that was a little asshole. This is going above and beyond that. Honestly you might not feel they're killers, but to say that this is essentially schoolyard name-calling is just disrespectful.

I think it's sad that we live in a world where we can't even hold somebody accountable for taking their own life. Do we as a nation really want to say that people have a right to go through their life without having their feelings hurt?? I'm sorry, but I think that's absurd.

What the ****? Seriously? Yes it's logical that at some point you're gonna get hurt one way or the other, but it's not like they told her her hair looks stupid and she snapped and hung herself. This was a systematic effort to make her life a hell on earth, and it worked. The fact that you want to hold people accountable for suicide is completely insane and backwards, assuming that people kill themselves for the heck of it. Lemme tell ya, it's not because they had a bad day at work, it's because your life has become such a mess that you knowingly go against every instinct that you have, willing yourself to do something that every fiber in your body knows is bad. We have a survival instinct. The fact these kids pushed her to the point where she could get through those survival instincts and hang herself is nothing to gloss over.

And I happen to believe that saying that as a species, we should at least affirm that we all deserve a life free of physical and psychological abuse, yes. Call me crazy but I think no human being deserves to be treated badly. I think it's absurd you don't, actually.

If the school wants to expel them, great, I think that's a fair response. If the mother wants to take civil action and file a wrongful death suit, also great...but criminal charges? No. People have become so self involved, and overly-sensitive that they go to the police because a person offends them, or hurts their feelings...trust me, we get calls all the time about name calling etc (disorderly conduct tickets for everybody!) I think we as a nation need to toughen up. Suicide is an obvious expression of a character flaw in my opinion, with VERY few exceptions. It is a display of weakness as far as I'm concerned. It sucks that kids were picking on her, but for God's sake, they're not criminals.

Yes they are criminals. And if you really feel that way that's your deal and I deeply, deeply disagree with you. But it must be nice to dispel all those disenfranchised, unhappy people, or those who are simply misfits in modern society as simply being flawed. Maybe the flaw isn't with people, but with society and the way it's gotten way too tough and way too gritty for it's own good. I don't know what's worse. The fact that these clearly criminally insane bullies are mocking her death or the fact that even the emotionally detached are inclined to shrug and go "eh well, her character was flawed, she was too weak to live".

mellojello
04-09-2010, 06:52 PM
Personally, I do think this is a sad story. I think all she needed was one solid friend who had her back.

CJSchneider
04-09-2010, 07:27 PM
light a fire under the teachers and put their freedom/money on the line. the next a time a kid gets shoved against a locker and beaten, the teacher will be thinking about whether or not they'll lose their job. i'm going to guess that would help heighten standards and attention to bullying.



That is the way it is. If as a teacher, I see an act of violence or bullying and I do nothing, I set myself up to be sued and or reprimanded. Tort law is *****.

YAYareaRB
04-09-2010, 07:33 PM
Man I'm glad I came from a school where no serious bullying went on. Just a bunch of **** talking, rumors, and gossiping lol. I'm kinda glad I didn't end up a bully because most of the smarter less popular kids at school were the ones that helped me graduate lol

The Unseen
04-09-2010, 07:48 PM
Mental pain is worse than physical pain.

senormysterioso
04-09-2010, 10:12 PM
Mental pain is worse than physical pain.

And the irony is that neither exist unless you let them.


I'm hoping you rethink your position on this.

Little assholes? Seriously? Stalking her while subjecting her to verbal and physical abuse constitites little assholes to you? So as long as you don't personally make the noose and toss her off the balcony it's no biggie?

You know what a little asshole is? My classmate when I was 10 who picked on me for having 'dumb hair' that was a little asshole. This is going above and beyond that. Honestly you might not feel they're killers, but to say that this is essentially schoolyard name-calling is just disrespectful.

What the ****? Seriously? Yes it's logical that at some point you're gonna get hurt one way or the other, but it's not like they told her her hair looks stupid and she snapped and hung herself. This was a systematic effort to make her life a hell on earth, and it worked. The fact that you want to hold people accountable for suicide is completely insane and backwards, assuming that people kill themselves for the heck of it. Lemme tell ya, it's not because they had a bad day at work, it's because your life has become such a mess that you knowingly go against every instinct that you have, willing yourself to do something that every fiber in your body knows is bad. We have a survival instinct. The fact these kids pushed her to the point where she could get through those survival instincts and hang herself is nothing to gloss over.

And I happen to believe that saying that as a species, we should at least affirm that we all deserve a life free of physical and psychological abuse, yes. Call me crazy but I think no human being deserves to be treated badly. I think it's absurd you don't, actually.

Yes they are criminals. And if you really feel that way that's your deal and I deeply, deeply disagree with you. But it must be nice to dispel all those disenfranchised, unhappy people, or those who are simply misfits in modern society as simply being flawed. Maybe the flaw isn't with people, but with society and the way it's gotten way too tough and way too gritty for it's own good. I don't know what's worse. The fact that these clearly criminally insane bullies are mocking her death or the fact that even the emotionally detached are inclined to shrug and go "eh well, her character was flawed, she was too weak to live".

Don't try to romantacize suicide, trust me it's not romantic...I've had to clean up a handful of them. That's the crux of the problem right there, people get all these convoluted grandious ideas that they'll be Kurt Cobain or Emily Dickinson if they commit suicide, and the fact of the matter is, the world goes on. Throughout my career in the military, and my work as a police officer I've seen death and carnage in just about every incarnation you can imagine. Killing yourself is a cowardly act, I believe that with every fiber of my being.

I'm not trying to be insensitive, this girl was young and had her whole life in front of her, it's a shame...no doubt. I vaguely remember that age, and it was rough...and especially rough for her. My position on suicide was in general. This was, in my estimation, a misguided kid that didn't realize that it would get better, that high school is only four years and you never see any of them again. The fact of the matter is, there are people in countries that are stoned to death for going outside unattended. I've seen the burned corpse of a kid who stole a chicken. You're not going to convince me that any amount of psychological abuse is worse than that. Life is hard, get a helmet.

The school should be held accountable as it was brought to their attention. That's absolutely egregious. A school should do everything it can to foster a safe environment for all of it's students.

The_Dude
04-09-2010, 11:43 PM
That is the way it is. If as a teacher, I see an act of violence or bullying and I do nothing, I set myself up to be sued and or reprimanded. Tort law is *****.

Agreed.

But part of the problem is that the bullies are sneaky kids and most bullying happens when there are no adults around. If the adult are aware of it and do nothing, they will get in trouble when it all comes out.

We may be in the middle of some similar stuff at my school.

BaLLiN
04-10-2010, 12:00 AM
well i can tell you of something childish turning into something much more. Im not sure if anyone else knows this but "Bowing", drawing on someones skin, is a new fad. Its fun because of how bad it gets, kids actually bleed.

Well a year later after its circulation at my school, one of my friends tried to resurrect it and bowed a kid on his neck. Little did he know, last year that kid got pissy and annoyed whenever it happened and had anger problems. So my friend turned his back and chuckled on his way back to his seat (we were doing a packet of easter crosswords so we could do watever). On his way, the kid who got bowed got out of his chair, took a few steps wound up, like legit, and then put one right in between my friend's back which made a loud thud. The kid then said "do you want another one...huh?" and proceeded to put his hands up like a boxer. Then the kid pushed him over.

Right after my teacher, woman and extremely feminist and bitchy, actually acted caringly and calmed the kid down before sending him to the office, he got in school suspension the next day. My friend got demerits too, but no detention.

my friend is a jock, although hes also really smart, but the other kid is kindof weird. It was a classic case of bully being overthrown.

The Unseen
04-10-2010, 12:14 AM
And the irony is that neither exist unless you let them.

Depending on the meaning of "you" this is either a) obvious or b) deluded. If you mean "you" as in a person or just people in general not having mental physical pain and watching someone go through it, well yeah, you can step in and help. If you mean "you" as in the person going through with it, I don't know how the **** that makes any sense to you. We're all supposed to be able to repel violence against us? Bull ******* ****. The same goes for mental pain. That's terrible reasoning and you know it.

The fact of the matter is, there are people in countries that are stoned to death for going outside unattended. I've seen the burned corpse of a kid who stole a chicken. You're not going to convince me that any amount of psychological abuse is worse than that. Life is hard, get a helmet.

Yeesh what a strawman. Of course, massive physical atrocities are worse than severe bullying. Everyone knows that. Making that connection is fallacious and does nothing to carry your argument.

Life is hard

yup


, get a helmet.

and in this case, the "helmet" should be a criminal justice system which retributively punishes those who cause psychological harm.

Bosanac01
04-10-2010, 12:59 AM
Sadly there is only so much the authority/government can do to prevent and minimize bullying. These kids clearly had no idea how badly they were hurting this poor girl. If they did, no way would they keep pushing her like they did. The problem is, most bullies do not know the severity of bullying and most kids being bullied don't say anything and let it keep happening until it goes from bad to ugly and then something like this happens.

villagewarrior
04-10-2010, 01:48 AM
This is a football forum, so that means most of us have played sports and may have a competitive or fighting spirt. How about those kids, perhaps like Phoebe, that don't know how to stand up for themselves? Her and her mother were from an entirely different country.

I don't necessarily mean that Phoebe herself should have been the one (although I do think the wussification of children by society plays a big part in this), but surely there was someone, somewhere that would see something like this happening and step in. I hate tooting my own horn about how cool I am, but I did get in a fight in high school because I saw someone being picked on and I intervened. There has to be more people like that out there, right?

CJSchneider
04-10-2010, 07:08 AM
ITT, internet high school tough guys act like internet high school tough guys.

'just ignore it' is pretty much the most most worthless advice you can give to someone who's become a target, as explained more eloquently by several people already.

as an aside, and since it hasn't received much focus, any school official who knew what was going on and did nothing to stop it should be permanently removed from society. kids are idiots, and they may eventually figure out that they're ****** up little monsters, but any adult who condoned this crap has no business interacting with other human beings ever again. show them to solitary, then drop the keys down a deep, dark well.


Understand the law has made this very difficult in many cases for school systems to do anything about this or a large number of other issues. I'll give you an example. Let's say a child comes up to me and says they are being picked on. I ask them to describe what happened and they tell me they were verbally abused and physically assulted. If I write a referal to the office on the other kid, all that child has to say is "I didn't do it." The very next thing that would happen is the administrator will come to me and ask, "Did you see these things happen?" If I am honest and say no - the referal will be dismissed (unless perhaps the assulted child has bruises or other witnesses willing to come forth, which is not always the case) and I just wasted time and ink. If I say yes, I am a liar. Insert role model discussion here.

Due to legislation designed to keep the playing field level betwen teachers and students (which is a whole other rant - "Due process" needs revision) There are a vast amount of issues I am powerless against because of the "system." Now, on a personal level, I can tell you if this happened, I would be watching the bully kid like a hawk so I could catch them, but as it was mentioned before, these kids are sneaky and they take measures to ensure they won't be seen. Couple that with the fact that I am outnumbered 30 to 1 (student to teacher ratio) I can only see so much and be effective in all the other areas I am expected to as an educator.

Please do not feel this was directed at you. I detest the teacher whos best advice in these situations consists of "Well, just ignore it." I teach my students that when they have problems, that they can bring them to me because I am the adult and responsible for solving them and thereby acting as the model for solving future problems on their own and that there requests will not fall on deaf ears. Something will be done, even if that something is just me paying closer attention to certain students and the victim feeling they have someone on their side.

Malaka
04-10-2010, 07:13 AM
I am a sophomore and to be quite honest with you, stories like these make me try to be the nicest guy in school. I don't think I could live with myself if I made someone commit suicide. This doesn't surprise me one bit though, although the actual suicide does. In school this happens constantly, but mostly with girls. There this one ***** I know who says things, when I sit next to her, about people in front of their face that I am like "damn, chill out". Guys on the other hand really mind their own buisness, and if their is a bullying sitaution usually their is a conflict and thats the end of it. Girls can be vicious lol.

In my opinion there is nothing that can be done about this situation, except maybe the parents could do something more with kids on both sides. Its rather unfair to punish teachers who are more or less not connected in anyway to the event. However, its obvious the girl had some self esteem issues with which the parents could have soothed or at least taken her to another school; if they had paid any attention to her demeanor at home, I think they could have noticed something out of the ordinary. The parents of the other children should ******* raise their kids a little better because we're raising a generation egotistical assholes who behind their tough exterior are huge pussies, but thats my 2 cents.

I am no hero or even aware of all these things, so like the teachers I can't go out of my way to defend every kid and comfort every kid when he gets their feelings hurt. But I don't understand how someone could commit suicide over such a thing though... I was picked on when I was little because I had really long hair and mini-douches would call me ***, I just had a little verbal joust with them and went on my way. If someone said something that really hurt me I'd talk about it with my mom or dad, and I'd feel better. I can't possibly conceive the notion of suicide, I just don't get it.

Addict
04-10-2010, 07:40 AM
And the irony is that neither exist unless you let them.

Oh way to go tough guy! I really have a hard time understanding your egomaniacal way of trivializing and/or completely disregarding the feelings of others. Maybe, and I highly doubt it, you can stop mental and physical pain for yourself, but for the rest of us, we bleed, we cry, we feel pain when hurt, intentional or otherwise.

Don't try to romantacize suicide, trust me it's not romantic...I've had to clean up a handful of them. That's the crux of the problem right there, people get all these convoluted grandious ideas that they'll be Kurt Cobain or Emily Dickinson if they commit suicide, and the fact of the matter is, the world goes on.

Please point out where exactl I romantisized it, because I'm pretty sure I didn't. What I said was that it's unnatural and goes against every survival instinct that we have as living beings. We want to survive. If you really think that someone who is so miserable they take their own life thinks they'll be worshipped by others, then I'm afraid that you're mistaken. You seem to take a few misguided idiots who probably fake a few suicide attempts by cutting up their wrists the wrong way (they cross the road instead of going down the street) with people who are so depressed and/or psychologically scarred that they choose to take their lives. And it's a shame you word it the way you do, because to dismiss these people as cowards or inherently flawed is missing a very real and very serious problem of modern society.

Throughout my career in the military, and my work as a police officer I've seen death and carnage in just about every incarnation you can imagine. Killing yourself is a cowardly act, I believe that with every fiber of my being.

Again, I don't agree with you. This isn't a question of "I've seen more death than you so I'm right", we all have our reasons to feel the way we feel about things, and quite frankly in the context of this discussion I couldn't care less if you're a cop, a soldier or a 14 year old girl with a Twiligh-fetish. The point is that suicide isn't something you can simply discard as cowardly. It's something that people are driven towards, because appearently they feel that their situation is so hopeless and pointless that they can will themselves through their most basic survival instincts and take their own lives.
To go and label them cowards ending a life that in their view is truly a lost cause is too simple and conventient... too cowardly if you will. A braver man would acknowledge that there are problems in the way modern society functions and that we should make a collective effort to ensure that society is open and filled with oppertunities for everyone, and that nobody gets left behind or is forgotten. I realize it's impossible to reach a 100% success rate, but that's what our goal should be.


I'm not trying to be insensitive, this girl was young and had her whole life in front of her, it's a shame...no doubt. I vaguely remember that age, and it was rough...and especially rough for her. My position on suicide was in general. This was, in my estimation, a misguided kid that didn't realize that it would get better, that high school is only four years and you never see any of them again.

For a second there you showed some empathy but then you went back into "suck it up"-mode and ruined it. See in her eyes, it wasn't gonna get better, and it wasn't going to be solved. If every day is hell, a few years is an eternity and it's pretty much impossible for you to judge her state of mind from your lazy chair. Thing is in her mind it wasn't going to get better, and it wasn't going to be solved.
JUdging from your wording, your adolescence is some while ago, so I'll go ahead and assume you predate the internet. Try to imagine that this girl potentially would have no rest. They'd harass her online, by cell phone, all the time. This creates stress, psychologial stress, pure and simple. The internet makes us more connected, for better or for worse.


The fact of the matter is, there are people in countries that are stoned to death for going outside unattended. I've seen the burned corpse of a kid who stole a chicken. You're not going to convince me that any amount of psychological abuse is worse than that. Life is hard, get a helmet.

The fact that you have to restort to stoning and being burned alive to find a subject that might be worse than psychological abuse says all I need. Thanks!

Prowler
04-10-2010, 07:56 AM
anybody know anymore about the days leading up to the suicide? had she tried to come forward, became the subject of reprisals, and then killed herself? were they going to charge the guys with statutory rape then she became ashamed? did the system fail her by exposing her concerns but doing nothing? was it just bottled tension from being abused daily?

mellojello
04-10-2010, 12:40 PM
I don't necessarily mean that Phoebe herself should have been the one (although I do think the wussification of children by society plays a big part in this), but surely there was someone, somewhere that would see something like this happening and step in. I hate tooting my own horn about how cool I am, but I did get in a fight in high school because I saw someone being picked on and I intervened. There has to be more people like that out there, right?Sometimes, you can just clown on someone instead of meeting the bully with force, but props in my book for you doing that. Like I said previously, it is more human nature for people to avoid trouble rather than confront it, even it's the right thing to do. It's the reason why in rape classes, they teach women to scream "fire," instead of "rape," because they found that people are less likely to assist a woman screaming "rape." I understand it and don't hold it against anyone for for avoiding conflict, but I won't stand for it personally. For me, things tend to slow down in dangerous situations and I'm able to think pretty clearly, but I know it's not like that for everyone. But yes, we're surrounded by people who are willing to intervene and for some professions, it's part of the job, like firefighters, cops, military, etc., who risk their lives daily. Courage can come in many forms though. In Pheobe's case, just someone, a student who had her back, as a friend would have helped. Like people mentioned, kids are sneaky so who knows what the teachers knew.

General Zod
04-10-2010, 01:36 PM
Being a parent of a 15 year old and a 11 year old myself, I have a different viewpoint of events like this then some of you. Im sure im in the minority here as a parent of a teen. Seems like most of the ppl on these boards are students or fairly young.

If some of you had kids of your own, you would take a different perspective on these events. Im not going to go into my own views, I'll just say that its a terrible tragedy and leave it at that.

TitanHope
04-10-2010, 03:14 PM
There's teasing and bullying because you get your jollies from the power trip, and then there's an organized attempt to make a personal's life miserable. These people didn't just rip up her Pokemon cards, or made fun of her acne on a bad breakout day. That stuff you can advise to "just ignore." They went out of their way continuously to do these things, and not only that, but also did commit assault her if they threw things like soda cans/bottles at her. That's hard to block out.

She probably developed severe depression over the course of her harassment, which would've compounded her torment and explain the suicide (Partly anyway. You can't really rationalize taking your own life). I'll admit that many times, I think suicide is a selfish thing. Not weak, but selfish. Life is too precious to throw it away. I'm a cancer survivor, and found out how mortal we are by watching friends fight for their life, and fail doing so. So when someone willingly takes their own life, after seeing so many fight and claw to keep theirs, it's hard to stomach for me. But if someone is depressed, being bullied can affect them far more negatively than the normal person's psyche. So insinuating that Prince was weak-minded because she couldn't take the lumps is so ignorant, insensitive, and overall moronic that it's hard to comprehend. Not everyone is built the same. Some kids would transfer to another school after all that. Another may've brought a weapon to school and killed them. Prince unfortunately took her life.

In the end, these kids may've (and I say that since they haven't been found guilty or innocent yet) infringed upon Prince's civil rights, harrassed and stalked her, assaulted her, and two of the boys may be guilty of statutory rape. Those are against the law, so if they're guilty, yes, they're criminals and should be treated as such.

bored of education
04-10-2010, 03:23 PM
ITT, internet high school tough guys act like internet high school tough guys.

'just ignore it' is pretty much the most most worthless advice you can give to someone who's become a target, as explained more eloquently by several people already.

as an aside, and since it hasn't received much focus, any school official who knew what was going on and did nothing to stop it should be permanently removed from society. kids are idiots, and they may eventually figure out that they're ****** up little monsters, but any adult who condoned this crap has no business interacting with other human beings ever again. show them to solitary, then drop the keys down a deep, dark well.

this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this

bored of education
04-10-2010, 03:33 PM
Suicide is such an weird yet interesting subject for me. The town I grew up in for a period of time had a very high rate of suicide. While in high school, I knew of at least 5 cases that occurred during those 4 years. Some were crazy kids that really had no idea what to do with their lives, the others were definatly due to the system. The system of your average American town that frowns upon indifference and change. Bullying, over looking a a kid crying inside, pointing the finger at that kid were just some issues that may have led to such tragic events. Many of the kids not only had issues at their homes but alos needed a place to escape. They were often the ones who did not do to well in school, caused trouble and had troubles with keeping friendships. It didnt help that the system forgot about them, pushed them further in to their abyss of neglect, torture and remorse. The bullies holding them while drowing in the typhoon of irrational thoughts. Then they are made ouot to be the bad guy the reason why a figh started so the school tells them they can't come back for the rest of the year that leads to them using drugs etc etc etc. It is a downward spiral.

This case did't go that far, this girl seemed like a stronger girl..you would suppose but sometime enough is a enough and she thought that was her ol way out since she had no support, what so ever. But their is no telling the type of pain that has been caused unless you take a look at her parents, her family and how they feel now. it is hard to accept suicide, the whys are endless. This is just a awful story and someone has to pay, but who will?


Very tragic story that is hitting mant local high schools with many speakers and people trying to implement strategies to stop this bullying. They should take a look at the parenting and the system that is led by the adminstration that allows ofr kids to act like bastards.

B-Dawk
04-10-2010, 04:02 PM
http://www.funmunch.com/funpages/friendship/power_of_your_actions/

kind of on subject, ran into this a couple days ago, good story (ignore the pictures)

bored of education
04-10-2010, 08:11 PM
About the teacher thing, many teacher in the school district/county I live went to the high school they teach at. they are the same jock types that were the bullies when they were in high school. they still hang out at local bars reliving the glory days of high school. i see it every day. many small towns are like this which is unfortunate. i often see, when a position opens up for being the head coach of a football team where the school will chose an alum rather than some 28 year old kid who has been working as a grad asst for a college for 5 years, who is looking to become a teacher in the said school. that 28 year old has no chance

Whistler6
04-10-2010, 09:19 PM
I just heard a report on some news show on AM radio that a couple of these "bullies," which is putting that lightly, had posted the word "Accomplished" as their facebook status following the news of the poor girls suicide.

****ing makes me sick. It makes me want to get ahold of every person in high school I was even remotely unkind to. Too many people focus on social status in high school, and following this story truly brings to light the major issue bullying has become.

The law needs to be firm here, no slap on the wrist.


Something will be done, even if that something is just me paying closer attention to certain students and the victim feeling they have someone on their side.


That's all you can really do, one person making a difference. I can't get over how sad this story is.

Thumper
04-10-2010, 09:24 PM
I just heard a report on some news show on AM radio that a couple of these "bullies," which is putting that lightly, had posted the word "Accomplished" as their facebook status following the news of the poor girls suicide.

See now that is highly ****** up. Wow... If thats the case, if their intent was truly to drive this girl to suicide, they deserve prison time (or put in juvie as the case may be). That changes everything in my mind, I thought they were just being dumb teenagers and the girl being from another country couldn't handle to culture shock and being made fun of, not that they were intentionally torturing her and forcing her to commit suicide. Wow. They need jail time and mental help, how anyone could hate anyone that much is beyond me.

mellojello
04-10-2010, 09:26 PM
http://www.wwlp.com/dpp/news/local/22News-cameras-capture-S.-Hadley-%27six%27

The Unseen
04-10-2010, 09:29 PM
well he looks the part

Whistler6
04-10-2010, 09:31 PM
An angry mother of a South Hadley High School (http://draftcountdown.com/topics?topic=South+Hadley+High+School) students has spoken out about the bullying 15-year-old Irish girl, Phoebe Prince (http://draftcountdown.com/topics?topic=Phoebe+Prince), encountered the last few days before she hanged herself.



The mother, who spoke on condition of anonymity to the Boston Herald (http://draftcountdown.com/topics?topic=Herald+Media+Inc.) for fear her daughter will get picked on, said the day Phoebe (http://draftcountdown.com/topics?topic=Phoebe+Prince) took her own life, one of the bullies wrote the cold word "accomplished” on Phoebe's Facebook (http://draftcountdown.com/topics?topic=Facebook+Inc.) page.

http://www.irishcentral.com/news/Bully-writes-accomplished-on-Phoebe-Princes-Facebook-page-on-day-of-death-89764722.html

Whistler6
04-10-2010, 09:38 PM
Court paperwork reveals that the 15-year-old freshman suffered harassment in the hallways, the library, the classrooms, the lunchroom and even the bathroom.

According to witnesses, the bullies hissed curse words, yelled obscenities and threatened to beat her up, sometimes within earshot of school faculty.

The taunting stemmed from teenage jealousy. According to the documents, Phoebe briefly dated a popular older football player at the school, Sean Mulveyhill, who is now facing charges in the case, including statutory rape.

Mulveyhill, 17, ended the relationship with Phoebe in November and resumed dating his girlfriend, Kayla Narey, a junior at South Hadley High. Narey, 17, is charged in the case with criminal harassment and violation of civil rights.

16-year-old Ashley Longe, a close platonic friend of Mulveyhill, stands accused of harassment and stalking.

On the day Phoebe died, the couple, along with Longe, had scrawled derogatory comments on the school's library sign in sheet, disparaging Phoebe's Irish heritage and reputation.

In the auditorium, they stood in a group, the paperwork reveals. Witnesses say Mulveyhill was overheard calling Phoebe a "*****." Longe said it to her face. Narey laughed.

As Phoebe walked home from school on this final day of her life, the paperwork says a witness saw Longe, passing by in a vehicle, throw an empty energy drink can in Phoebe's direction and yell something degrading.

Phoebe was crying as she continued her walk. When she arrived home, she hanged herself in a stairwell, wearing the same clothing she had on at school that day.


...

Velazquez, a friend of Mullins, was witnessed by a teacher harassing Phoebe in a classroom leading to a one day suspension.

...

Phoebe committed suicide on January 14th. Her little sister discovered the body.


http://liveshots.blogs.foxnews.com/2010/04/09/phoebe-prince-brutal-final-days/

sbh15
04-10-2010, 09:39 PM
I am no hero or even aware of all these things, so like the teachers I can't go out of my way to defend every kid and comfort every kid when he gets their feelings hurt. But I don't understand how someone could commit suicide over such a thing though... I was picked on when I was little because I had really long hair and mini-douches would call me ***, I just had a little verbal joust with them and went on my way. If someone said something that really hurt me I'd talk about it with my mom or dad, and I'd feel better. I can't possibly conceive the notion of suicide, I just don't get it.

I'm a senior in high school and while I don't quite go out of my way like that (mostly because my grade/school doesn't really have any loners, most kids have gone to the school their whole lives and have some friends), but I can appreciate just how much that actually does for people.

I was that kid in eighth grade. I had moved twice before and got kinda depressed about leaving my good friends again, so decided to just keep to myself and what not. I'd never been a loner before, actually both schools I had went to I was "popular". Anyway, I got to a point where I'd have to stay home from school because I couldn't bear not having anyone to talk to or make it through the day with at school. The worst ******* part was sitting alone at my own table every day at lunch. Anyway about half way through the year the "cool" kids invited me to sit with them and I ended up becoming really good friends with them, and what they did was random. I was reluctant to sit with them because I thought I'd be made fun of or whatever, but they were actually all really cool.

So moral of my story for those of you/us who are students and see this kind of ****, just talk to the person. You don't have to be best friends with them, but they might turn out to be really cool.

Thumper
04-10-2010, 09:45 PM
that intent has been cited in this thread and in the case FREQUENTLY.



intriguing how quickly you changed your tune. maybe it was just the realization that your original attempt to play devil's advocate (or worse, actually arguing for your real opinion) led you to defending an indefensible crime (yes, by law). either way, congratulations on no longer being a sociopath.

Nope, I didn't read that was their intent, I read they were dipshits (calling her names, spreading rumors, stalking, making fun of etc. etc.) and made fun of the suicide on facebook. I read nothing that said their intent was to have her kill herself. You can pull it up if someone said it, but like I said, I didn't read it. I think that changes the story a whole lot because before I was under the impression it was just your every day average high school bullies but now that I find out their intent was to have her end her life, that leaves me under the impression that they were doing some really screwed up stuff that deserves to be punished. Now that I find out about their intent, it changes from the girl taking her own life to them taking her life in my mind and that is a huge difference, something worthy of "quickly changing my tune".

And I still believe in what I said, if it was just your every day average bully (names, rumors) and the victim commit suicide, I still don't believe thats a crime. I still think the bully didn't force them to commit suicide and I still think that suicide is a sign of weakness, I'm not going to say pain doesn't exist like the other guy did, but I believe that bullies only get to you, if you allow them to and then to commit suicide because some kids are making fun of you is really IMO a sign of short sighted-ness, weakness and probably some stupidity. If you think that some kids making fun of you for a small portion of your life is reason enough to kill yourself, that is weak and stupid in my eyes and I have no empathy for anyone who does it, its just stupid to commit suicide. Yeah the bullies are scummy people and I definitely am not defending them, but committing suicide is lame.

SeanTaylorRIP
04-10-2010, 09:46 PM
**** these Kids. We all act stupid when we are younger, but this is beyond comprehension. The worst part of this all is that it seems like they still see nothing wrong with what they did.

The_Dude
04-10-2010, 09:46 PM
This **** is depressing as hell.

On a slightly more positive note, read this article about the teacher at my school who twice talked down a student with a gun at school on Monday.

http://www.startribune.com/local/east/90161972.html?elr=KArksUUUoDEy3LGDiO7aiU

I think that this is sort of related to the topic of teachers stepping up and not only doing their jobs, but going above and beyond to make sure that students are safe.

Mike Rapatz is a great guy who also just finished up with Chemo treatments about a month ago. One hell of a year for him....

SeanTaylorRIP
04-10-2010, 09:54 PM
I think there needs to be more education in schools about this kind of thing. I really never became aware of how much some kids suffer until my senior year in high school. When I was a senior I got in trouble for letting one of my buddies on the track team cheat off of me so I was punished for a week to help out the ESL students with a community project they were doing. While doing that I met this one kid from Bahrain. After talking to him I was shocked to hear what he was saying. He was telling me about how every day he hated going to school, he felt like a criminal or something because he was from another country and had an accent. He said that he would be relieved just to get through the day and go home. In high school I really had no idea that some people had such a hard time communicating. If I had known about this I definitely would have approached these kids as I really have never hated anyone except for people who purposely want to hated, and we know those kind of people. I think if kids are educated in middle school it could really go a long way. I think after all of these school shootings and instances like this one, educating on bullying is even more important than Sex Ed.

Addict
04-11-2010, 03:43 AM
Nope, I didn't read that was their intent, I read they were dipshits (calling her names, spreading rumors, stalking, making fun of etc. etc.) and made fun of the suicide on facebook. I read nothing that said their intent was to have her kill herself. You can pull it up if someone said it, but like I said, I didn't read it. I think that changes the story a whole lot because before I was under the impression it was just your every day average high school bullies but now that I find out their intent was to have her end her life, that leaves me under the impression that they were doing some really screwed up stuff that deserves to be punished. Now that I find out about their intent, it changes from the girl taking her own life to them taking her life in my mind and that is a huge difference, something worthy of "quickly changing my tune".

So wait, mocking her death on facebook is a-ok and just what an average bully does, but mocking her death and saying 'accomplished' (which IMO is just as bad as mocking it) instantly transforms them into monsters? I don't really see how mocking someone's death, that your actions are directly related to(!) is any less disgusting, insane, criminal and psychopathic than just saying 'well that did the trick'.
Think about this for five minutes. If you're picking on someone and he or she takes his or her own life, than your reaction, if there was no truly evil motive to your actions would be "holy ****, what the hell did we do? I didn't realize we pushed her THAT hard!" And not "hahaha too weak to live!". The fact that they already publically mocked her death already told you that this was not some accident or just some kid who took it the wrong way.
And once again, you're assuming that people can just kill themselves for having a bad day at school or work. Suicide does not work that way.


And I still believe in what I said, if it was just your every day average bully (names, rumors) and the victim commit suicide, I still don't believe thats a crime. I still think the bully didn't force them to commit suicide and I still think that suicide is a sign of weakness, I'm not going to say pain doesn't exist like the other guy did, but I believe that bullies only get to you, if you allow them to and then to commit suicide because some kids are making fun of you is really IMO a sign of short sighted-ness, weakness and probably some stupidity. If you think that some kids making fun of you for a small portion of your life is reason enough to kill yourself, that is weak and stupid in my eyes and I have no empathy for anyone who does it, its just stupid to commit suicide. Yeah the bullies are scummy people and I definitely am not defending them, but committing suicide is lame.

I.... I just don't know what to tell you, except that I hope this is something you'll grow out of and realize isn't wrong in itself, but more a case of your own short-sightedness. You've clearly never dealt with the kind of emotions of depression nor are you able to understand the mindset suicidal people find themselves in. It's not a question of 'just get over it', that's the entire problem: they can't. As for short-sighted, well to be honest with you I think you're exposing a lot of it yourself right now. Suicide, like most emotionally driven actions, isn't a rational action, so to say that it's not logical with long-term arguments doesn't matter.

AntoinCD
04-11-2010, 05:39 AM
Reading about things like this is obviously very hard to take in and obviously from reading the thread it does provoke a lot of anger at not only the kids but also the system they are in.

From my own experience in school luckily the year I was in was pretty good. There was name calling and things like that however it was all more not part good natured and everyone got it. It was seldom, if ever, directed constantly at one person. As I mentioned this was very lucky for me and people I went to school with.

However my younger brother was two years below me in school and for a few years was subjected to pretty bad bullying. Now my brother is a pretty big guy and got suspended quite a few times for fighting back but the one thing he did was he never told anyone. Now he is quite a confident guy and isnt the shy type you normally think of when you think of people being bullied and not saying about it.

My point is that if he couldnt find the courage to go and say to an authority figure or my parents etc that he was being bullied then how can other people be expected to. Psychological harm is one of the worst things people have to go through. Think of adults who suffer from stress etc. Now imagine that as a teenager when you hormone levels are all over the map.

It is just an extremely difficult situation and one which unfortunately will probably never be really rectified

CJSchneider
04-11-2010, 07:53 AM
I think if kids are educated in middle school it could really go a long way. I think after all of these school shootings and instances like this one, educating on bullying is even more important than Sex Ed.

I'm not saying you are wrong, just give me a sec so I can write your name down as one of the people who think that in addition to the curriculum, I need to basically parent students as well. Again, this isn't directed at you. I just love when people lump the responsibility to cure societies woes on to the school system. This is a parenting issue. I'm not saying character ed. doesn't have a place in school, but how much can you honestly add to the load teachers already have.

Oh and off the top of my head , no students I have taught have commited suicide, but at least 20 young women have become pregnant. That's 20 fathers and 20 future middle schoolers also affected as well. I'm guessing Sex Ed. has solidified its need.

Addict
04-11-2010, 08:07 AM
I'm not saying you are wrong, just give me a sec so I can write your name down as one of the people who think that in addition to the curriculum, I need to basically parent students as well. Again, this isn't directed at you. I just love when people lump the responsibility to cure societies woes on to the school system. This is a parenting issue. I'm not saying character ed. doesn't have a place in school, but how much can you honestly add to the load teachers already have.

Oh and off the top of my head , no students I have taught have commited suicide, but at least 20 young women have become pregnant. That's 20 fathers and 20 future middle schoolers also affected as well. I'm guessing Sex Ed. has solidified its need.

As the son of a primary school teacher I can only agree with you on this CJ. Raising these kids and ensuring they're good people the job of parents first, and educators second. To claim that this is primarily an issue for teachers to handle is missing the point and, even worse, making a political statement.

The way I see it, for many people it is a problem to acknowledge that the problem is with the parents, because that acknowledgement would have to lead to actions taken to ensure that situation improves. Which would mean that the government would provide itself with acces (limited though it may be) to the homes and family unit. It's much easier to blame teachers, who are just professionals. But you're absolutely right this kind of behaviour is 100% due to poor parenting, and the only reason people blame teachers or claim that it's the educator who is charged with teaching these kids basic things like respect for others is they are scared to be seen as invaders of the privacy of families.

Addict
04-11-2010, 08:36 AM
this largely has to do with other... erm, 'side effects' of some folk's influence on a scientifically grounded curriculum. which is, quite literally, the last thing we're really going to say on the topic (as per rules, etc).

fully agree on the parenting thoughts. though, that again is veering fairly close to the edge of kosher.

sex? I didn't know we couldn't discuss that... I just thought politics and religion were offlimits. (which I still believe should be considered more of a guideline. After all if it can be done with some maturity what's the problem?)