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scpanther22
04-11-2010, 12:41 PM
So which DT in this years draft do you think fits this theory?

It belongs to the late New York Giants executive George Young. It's called the Planet Theory.


"Big, giant men that run fast?" Schwartz said while paraphrasing Young. "That are strong enough to play the run and athletic enough to play the pass? ... There's not many people like that walking the planet."
http://www.freep.com/article/20100411/SPORTS01/4110453/1049/sports01/History-shows-Lions-could-regret-drafting-defensive-tackle-at-No.-2

Shane P. Hallam
04-11-2010, 12:59 PM
So which DT in this years draft do you think fits this theory?


http://www.freep.com/article/20100411/SPORTS01/4110453/1049/sports01/History-shows-Lions-could-regret-drafting-defensive-tackle-at-No.-2

Ummmmm...Terrence Cody?

ThePudge
04-11-2010, 01:24 PM
Ummmmm...Terrence Cody?

In the sense that Cody has two-three moons orbiting him? I heard flies are attracted to him as well, thinking he's a hippo or elephant.

parcells
04-11-2010, 01:28 PM
Cody is just fat and not much else IMO. Suh is a classic example of planet theory, and McCoy is not far behind. Suh is a great combo of size, strength, and speed. McCoy is just ridiculously quick for a DT, but his size and strength aren't amazing for a DT.

scpanther22
04-11-2010, 02:15 PM
I think Linval Jospeh could be one.

TACKLE
04-11-2010, 02:16 PM
The "Planet Theory" also applies to LT's and DE's.

VUBlacknGold
04-11-2010, 02:33 PM
The "Planet Theory" also applies to LT's and DE's.

then Alex Carrington for me

Paranoidmoonduck
04-11-2010, 02:37 PM
Erm, the Planet Theory is supposed to be applied to those guys who are so impossibly large that you're shocked they're able to play football, not a mishmash of 300 lbs. guys.

Cody does apply here, but only barely. Almost everyone else listed isn't really that far above average size for the positions they'll play in the NFL.

Shane P. Hallam
04-11-2010, 02:55 PM
I was making a joke with Cody, obviously the indication in the article is that it applies to Ndamukong Suh.

Addict
04-11-2010, 03:03 PM
The "Planet Theory" also applies to LT's and DE's.

Tight ends, too.

Paranoidmoonduck
04-11-2010, 03:38 PM
I was making a joke with Cody, obviously the indication in the article is that it applies to Ndamukong Suh.

I really don't see how though. The whole idea of the theory is that taking really gargantuan guys is a attractive and smart move, it says nothing about taking average sized guys with great strength (which is what Suh is).

TheSlinger
04-11-2010, 03:38 PM
Don't forget quarterbacks!

..........

Foosballphan
04-11-2010, 03:39 PM
pro day results from nfl.com
DT Geno Atkins
DT Lamarr Houston
DT Gerald McCoy
DT Ndamukong Suh
DT, Sean Lissemore (6-3 1/2, 298) ran the 40 in 4.81 and 4.84, had a 30-inch vertical jump, 9-3 broad jump, 4.52 short shuttle, 7.57 three-cone drill and did 26 bench presses. william & mary
DT Earl Mitchell Arizona (6-1 1/4, 294) 33-inch vertical jump, 9-6 broad jump and 7.31 3-cone drill, 4.70 40, 25 bp reps
DT Linval Joseph (6-foot-4 1/4, 319 pounds) 40-yard dash in 4.93 seconds with the wind, 5.16 seconds against the wind, 31.5" vertical jump, an 8'6" broad jump, a 4.52-second short shuttle, a 7.62-second 3-cone drill, 39 bp reps, east carolina
DT Jared Odrick (6-5, 298) ran 5.03 and 4.95 in the 40, had a 29-inch vertical jump, a 4.44 short shuttle and stayed with the rest of his workout numbers from the NFL Scouting Combine. He had 34-inch arms and did position workouts
DT D’Anthony Smith (6'2", 304) 40-yard dash in 5.01 and 5.08 seconds, had a 35 1/2-inch vertical jump, a 9-foot, 5-inch broad jump, a 4.58-second short shuttle, a 7.42-second three-cone drill and 30 bench press reps, louisiana tech
DT Robert Rose (6-4 1/4, 294) ran 4.75 and 4.78 in the 40, 27.5-inch vertical leap, 9-foot, 2-inch broad jump, 4.44 short shuttle, 7.44 three-cone drill, completed 24 bench press reps. ohio state

wicket
04-11-2010, 03:40 PM
Tight ends, too.

and return specialists

wait im doing this wrong

Shane P. Hallam
04-11-2010, 03:58 PM
I really don't see how though. The whole idea of the theory is that taking really gargantuan guys is a attractive and smart move, it says nothing about taking average sized guys with great strength (which is what Suh is).

Read Schwartz's quote and it is his take on it.

Duffman57
04-11-2010, 04:25 PM
The guy that i wouldn't be surprised to see here is Callahan Bright. He's 6'3" 342 and runs a 5.02 and benched 42 reps at NC states pro day.

Paranoidmoonduck
04-11-2010, 04:46 PM
Read Schwartz's quote and it is his take on it.

I read it, I just don't see how the 300 lbs. is even remotely relevant when discussing the idea of big linemen anymore. With the numbers in front of me, I'm willing to bet that the majority of NFL offensive linemen and defensive tackles are over 300 lbs, rendering that rarity to a player's size which was the entire point of Young's concept a bit useless.

Addict
04-11-2010, 04:56 PM
Read Schwartz's quote and it is his take on it.

I like the way he looks at it. Still, the overall tone of the article is... it's just not very good.

JHL6719
04-12-2010, 07:44 AM
and return specialists

wait im doing this wrong


...and kickers.... I think that's how Janikowski went in the 1st round..

LookItsAlDavis
04-12-2010, 08:00 AM
Best example of the planet theory- Herman Johnson

Cigaro
04-12-2010, 08:03 AM
I read it, I just don't see how the 300 lbs. is even remotely relevant when discussing the idea of big linemen anymore. With the numbers in front of me, I'm willing to bet that the majority of NFL offensive linemen and defensive tackles are over 300 lbs, rendering that rarity to a player's size which was the entire point of Young's concept a bit useless.

It's not big lineman, it's big players. 300 lbs is a big football player. Maybe an average defensive lineman, but a big football player.

yourfavestoner
04-12-2010, 10:44 AM
I really don't see how though. The whole idea of the theory is that taking really gargantuan guys is a attractive and smart move, it says nothing about taking average sized guys with great strength (which is what Suh is).

Not at all, it's just a supply and demand theory that relates to football. It has more to do with the ratio of athletic ability to size than straight gargantuan-ness. There is a much smaller supply of big athletic people than there is small athletic people, so you'd better take one if you have the chance. That's all it is. This only compounds itself with the fact that OT, DT, and DE (positions that require the best size to athletic ability ratio) are the most important positions on the field after QB.

It has nothing to do with pure size, because big, huge guys who can't move are just as plentiful as small guys who can run.

bigbluedefense
04-12-2010, 10:50 AM
To me, when George Young said that, he was referring to big guys who are beyond athletic for their body type. I'm sure he was initially referring to LT when he said it.

I guess guys that would apply to this theory are Mario Williams, Haloti Ngata (sp), Patrick Willis, DeMarcus Ware, Calvin Johnson etc.

The only player in this draft that comes to mind to me is Jason Pierre-Paul.

yourfavestoner
04-12-2010, 11:04 AM
To me, when George Young said that, he was referring to big guys who are beyond athletic for their body type. I'm sure he was initially referring to LT when he said it.

I guess guys that would apply to this theory are Mario Williams, Haloti Ngata (sp), Patrick Willis, DeMarcus Ware, Calvin Johnson etc.

The only player in this draft that comes to mind to me is Jason Pierre-Paul.

Exactly. Julius Peppers, Tommie Harris, Robert Gallery (as a prospect), Shawne Merriman, and Jon Ogden are other examples. Most of the top OTs are, in fact, simply because the position requires so much athleticism in the NFL. OTs are required to block the best athletes on the entire field.

Carlos Dunlap is another one in this class. Trent Williams you can definitely make the argument for.

bigbluedefense
04-12-2010, 11:07 AM
I was thinking about Dunlap but then I think you have to be careful in doing that.

Bc there has to be a difference between the planet theory and workout warriors. Dunlap is more of a workout warrior.

Planet theory players should be guys who are not only athletic freaks, but also very productive. Dunlap, while productive, has serious concerns regarding his effort, so to me he's more of a "guy who looks good in shorts"

NGSeiler
04-12-2010, 11:09 AM
I read it, I just don't see how the 300 lbs. is even remotely relevant when discussing the idea of big linemen anymore. With the numbers in front of me, I'm willing to bet that the majority of NFL offensive linemen and defensive tackles are over 300 lbs, rendering that rarity to a player's size which was the entire point of Young's concept a bit useless.

The theory wasn't that there was a rare number of big lineman, but rather a rare number of big linemen who were also very athletic. You only seem to be talking about half of the equation (size) while ignoring the other half (rare athleticism).

FUNBUNCHER
04-12-2010, 11:10 AM
Not at all, it's just a supply and demand theory that relates to football. It has more to do with the ratio of athletic ability to size than straight gargantuan-ness. There is a much smaller supply of big athletic people than there is small athletic people, so you'd better take one if you have the chance. That's all it is. This only compounds itself with the fact that OT, DT, and DE (positions that require the best size to athletic ability ratio) are the most important positions on the field after QB.

It has nothing to do with pure size, because big, huge guys who can't move are just as plentiful as small guys who can run.

Nice breakdown of the Planet theory.

It's similar to basketball in that if you have a chance to draft a 6'11 guy who can run the floor like a guard, can jump out of the gym and can move well laterally, you don't pass on him for the more plentiful 6'2 to 6'7 players available every year.

Except in the case of Sam Bowie over Michael Jordan.:rolleyes:

The best big, athletic guys in this draft IMO are Trent Williams, Suh, McCoy, JPP, Dunlap, Bulaga, Davis, Okung, Dan Williams, Rolando McClain, Gresham, GT WR Thomas, and yes, UGH, Terrence(?) Cody.

Paranoidmoonduck
04-12-2010, 04:25 PM
The theory wasn't that there was a rare number of big lineman, but rather a rare number of big linemen who were also very athletic. You only seem to be talking about half of the equation (size) while ignoring the other half (rare athleticism).

So long as we agree that anyone who plays football is quite athletic, I still don't see how it applies anymore. The number of 300 lbs. in the game today dwarfs the number in the game when George Young started with the Giants, let alone when he started in the NFL. There were top flight 34 NT in the 1980's who were 260 lbs and today the conversation for that position typically doesn't start until a guy top 320 lbs. The setting has changed completely.

yourfavestoner
04-12-2010, 04:58 PM
So long as we agree that anyone who plays football is quite athletic, I still don't see how it applies anymore. The number of 300 lbs. in the game today dwarfs the number in the game when George Young started with the Giants, let alone when he started in the NFL. There were top flight 34 NT in the 1980's who were 260 lbs and today the conversation for that position typically doesn't start until a guy top 320 lbs. The setting has changed completely.

I'll bring you back to my post...

Not at all, it's just a supply and demand theory that relates to football. It has more to do with the ratio of athletic ability to size than straight gargantuan-ness. There is a much smaller supply of big athletic people than there is small athletic people, so you'd better take one if you have the chance. That's all it is. This only compounds itself with the fact that OT, DT, and DE (positions that require the best size to athletic ability ratio) are the most important positions on the field after QB.

It has nothing to do with pure size, because big, huge guys who can't move are just as plentiful as small guys who can run.

Again, it's not just about pure size, but size:speed ratio. It's not like a couple of positions have grown in size while the rest have stayed the same...players from every position have been getting bigger, so I don't really understand where you're coming from with the NT argument. If there was a 280 lb NT back then who moved like a 260 lber, he'd be a top pick. Likewise, today, if Terrence Cody moved like Suh or McCoy, he'd be in contention with those two for the top DT taken.

Yes, Suh and McCoy are not huge for DTs. They're right around the average, maybe even a little bit undersized. But how many NFL DTs can move like them? Remember, it's not about how many big men there are on the planet, but big, athletic men. Just because you have to be an athlete to play a professional sport, you're assuming that they're all of roughly equal athleticism and that's simply not true. Despite being around the same size, a guy like Lendale White isn't even in the same ballpark of athleticism as, say, Steven Jackson. It's the same as saying that Chris Hovan is nowhere near the athlete that Suh or McCoy are, despite having relatively equal size.

Think if Terrence Cody moved like a Suh or McCoy. He'd easily be in contention for the first DT selected and first overall pick.

scpanther22
04-12-2010, 05:25 PM
on the subject of DT..what happend to Boo Robinson I remeber seeing mocks of him going in the 2nd round.

Paranoidmoonduck
04-12-2010, 07:09 PM
Yes, Suh and McCoy are not huge for DTs. They're right around the average, maybe even a little bit undersized. But how many NFL DTs can move like them?

Um, I don't know, a lot of them? It's neither speed nor strength that make Suh or McCoy the defensive tackles they are. In terms of pure measurable speed or strength, they don't even stand out from guys in this draft like D'Anthony Smith. It's their football skills and strength that put them so far ahead of the pack, not the size:speed ratio.

My point is that pointing to that 300 lbs. target like Schwartz did seems massively outdated since the rarity of guys that size who can move is far less so than it used to be. Even if I take the principle of the Planet Theory, I'm not clear it applies to Suh either. Certainly, he carries that 300 lbs like a great athlete, but if that's the only prerequisite to point and him and shout about the Planet Theory, then I would venture that the concept has lost all meaning whatsoever.

My point is that, at one time, finding a guy who was 300+ lbs and was even able to play lots of snaps on the football field was hugely rare. The temptation to take a guy like that even if he was somewhat lacking in other areas was huge because if he did pan out his size advantage on the field would be a giant factor in favor of your team. Considering that any offensive lineman or defensive tackle that weighs in under 300 lbs is considered undersized these days, the standout size + athleticism formula doesn't really apply to that mark anymore.

I'm not misunderstanding the theory, I'm just saying that way a lot of people are using it in this thread is rendering it ultimately pointless. It's useless to just point that a good player and say 'Planet Theory'. It's useful to point at a abnormally big player (abnormal to the current average size at that position) who can play a lot of snaps and is a good athlete who gets his stock raised as a result because that combination is simply rare.

SenorGato
04-12-2010, 07:46 PM
Ummmmm...Terrence Cody?

Right? :confused:

How many SEC 350+ DTs anchor National Championship level D's?

Throw in that he's Saban coached, he did things that 350+ pound DTs don't do like get used as blocking FBs and dropped into zone coverage.

Somehow, everyone was shocked to find out that the 350 pound 22 year old looked fat and he started falling like a rock on forums.

Rosebud
04-14-2010, 12:35 AM
Suh, McCoy, Price, Lemarr Houston, Linval Joseph, Torrel Troup, Dan Williams and Terrance Cody. At DT those are the guys who have an insane combo of size, burst and strength, most have more of one than others, but all of those guys have astounding potential skillsets. Cody gets a lot of ****, a lot of it from me, but he definitely fits this, his fat ass is still really strong and an impressive athlete for the size. And although he's lazy, raw and a slow learner he does have monster potential which is what the planet theory is all about.

FUNBUNCHER
04-14-2010, 01:40 AM
I think the planet theory still applies in today's game because IMO a 300+# man who could be 95% of the posters on SWDC in a 40 yard dash is still damn impressive athletically.

There may be more 300 pounders in today's college and pro football, but there aren't really that many who are exceptional athletes for their size.

Cody played at 370 for Saban and the Tide; guys that big and sloppy aren't supposed to be agile or coordinated enough to play big time college (or pro) football.

When you go down to D1AA football, and compare the athleticism and strength of a Cody/Suh/Bulaga/Okung/Trent Williams to the proponderance of 300# lineman in that division, it becomes striking how much these five are freak athletes for their size.

Going back to the basketball analogy, almost all top 50 B-ball programs have a 6'9 or taller post man on their teams, so technically it's not 'rare', but how many of them have an Amare Stoudamire, Kevin Durant or Dwight Howard type athlete on their teams?

I get what your saying paranoidmoonduck, 300 # lineman is the baseline for the NFL and isn't really a rare sight to see a player that size anymore, like it was anytime prior to the mid/late 1980s.

Originally I think the planet theory was meant to describe players who were outsized for their position AND athletic, which today would probably mean a lineman who was 350+# who was athletic enough to potentially start in the NFL.

But I think it still somewhat applies to players today who not only are big in general by NFL standards, (300+#ers), or just their position, ( 260# MLB like Brian Urlacher), who couple that size with with superior or rare speed and athletic ability.

LickaMahfeetz
04-14-2010, 02:54 AM
Not at all, it's just a supply and demand theory that relates to football. It has more to do with the ratio of athletic ability to size than straight gargantuan-ness. There is a much smaller supply of big athletic people than there is small athletic people, so you'd better take one if you have the chance. That's all it is. This only compounds itself with the fact that OT, DT, and DE (positions that require the best size to athletic ability ratio) are the most important positions on the field after QB.

It has nothing to do with pure size, because big, huge guys who can't move are just as plentiful as small guys who can run.
^

All of this. Which seemed obvious. What else seems obvious is that Suh fits the criteria to a T, while a guy like Cody doesn't seem to fit the criteria at all.

LickaMahfeetz
04-14-2010, 03:01 AM
Suh, McCoy, Price, Lemarr Houston, Linval Joseph, Torrel Troup, Dan Williams and Terrance Cody. At DT those are the guys who have an insane combo of size, burst and strength, most have more of one than others, but all of those guys have astounding potential skillsets. Cody gets a lot of ****, a lot of it from me, but he definitely fits this, his fat ass is still really strong and an impressive athlete for the size. And although he's lazy, raw and a slow learner he does have monster potential which is what the planet theory is all about.
Cody doesn't fit the criteria. Straight from the very first quote by Schwartz.

"That are strong enough to play the run and athletic enough to play the pass?"
Not only did his team/coach specifically remove him from passing downs but during the rare times that he was on the field during a play that resulted in a pass he was mighty pathetic. Typically not even generating any push in the pocket.

I'd think the mention of being athletic enough to play the pass is an important requirement of the criteria. Cody doesn't qualify. He's just getting confused for being as big as a planet.

SKim172
04-14-2010, 01:57 PM
How is this a theory? It's barely a hypothesis. "Not many people on this planet are big and fast." 'Kay. Not many people on this planet can throw a football with NFL strength and accuracy, either. Not many people on this planet can run, jump, and catch like an NFL wideout. Might as well draft those guys, too.

This theory does nothing to narrow your options, because nobody you're drafting in the first round is going to be some average joe. Unless Jim Schwartz was sitting in his draft room wondering if he should draft Suh, AP All-American, or Bob Bobertson, Walmart employee of the month, this "theory" doesn't help anyone.

Supporting Caste
04-14-2010, 01:59 PM
This is a really dumb theory.