DROY Brian Cushing Suspended

[cvv84]

@Adam_Schefter Filed to ESPN: Texans Rookie of the Year LB Brian Cushing is being suspended four games for violating NFL's steroids policy.

[Scotty D]

wow, where theres smoke...

[BeerBaron]

Haha...why am I not surprised?

[Bob Sanders Dreadlock]

Good one Joe Defranco, still have miles austin. There goes the playoffs?

[CLong4Heisman]

I give it 5 minutes before someone puts the man boob pictures up

[TitanHope]

I am shocked! Shocked and appalled!

PS. I hate Brian Cushing. *dances*

[CashmoneyDrew]

I'm doing my E-Trade baby "shocked" face.

[Hurricanes25]

Not surprised.

http://www.thedirty.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/05/cstrh23e8ggb.jpg

[soybean]

I give it 5 minutes before someone puts the man boob pictures up

Not surprised.

http://www.thedirty.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/05/cstrh23e8ggb.jpg

wrong! 1 minute.

[Ravens1991]

Wasnt there rumors about this before the draft. I always get him and Clay Matthews mixed up I think there were rumors one of them took roids

[GB12]

And not a single person is surprised. I just hope that he didn't roid Clay Matthews up too.

[Shane P. Hallam]

Twice in the last five years the DROY was suspended for steroids the year following his award I believe.

[wonderbredd24]

How long until Taylor Mays gets nailed?

[M.O.T.H.]

haha. Worst kept secret ever. All those Bergen Catholic kids are juicers.

[Nalej]

Haha... funniest thing is that NO ONE is surprised

[Addict]

I don't want to disturb everyone's victory dance here, but the steroids policy isn't just steroids, it's a lot of supplements these guys used as well. Didn't Merriman get his suspention for some meds he had to take?

Anyway, just wanted to remind you guys.

[TitanHope]

Wasnt there rumors about this before the draft. I always get him and Clay Matthews mixed up I think there were rumors one of them took roids

The speculation was over both guys.

[wonderbredd24]

I don't want to disturb everyone's victory dance here, but the steroids policy isn't just steroids, it's a lot of supplements these guys used as well. Didn't Merriman get his suspention for some meds he had to take?

Anyway, just wanted to remind you guys.
Yes, Merriman was suspended for "meds". How could anyone think he was on anything?

[WMD]

From an article during last years combine..

"And a 30-year NFL scout added: "If I were to look at the entire 300-plus group of players here and ask myself based on my knowledge of steroids which one of these players is the prime prospect to have used it, he would be it. He has the physique and other attributes that indicate it. But he is fortunate. Unlike other sports, we test strongly for it. And if he passes that test, so be it. He gets a clean slate with us."

http://www.nfl.com/combine/story?id=09000d5d80edca0f&template=without-video-with-comments&confirm=true

Sucks for him, but yeah.. Nobody is surprised

[Addict]

Yes, Merriman was suspended for "meds". How could anyone think he was on anything?

wow you're especially spiteful today.

Anyway I just thought I'd remind you that it's not just steroids included in this rule he's broken.

[wonderbredd24]

wow you're especially spiteful today.

Anyway I just thought I'd remind you that it's not just steroids included in this rule he's broken.

These guys make millions... they know what they are putting into their bodies regardless of what anyone claims.

The cycle for trying to dodge the tests and such is incredibly complicated. They are heavily regimented.

Everyone is probably on something, but Maryland especially seems to be producing inhuman freaks in recent years and I'm willing to bet Shawn Merriman's knee is in the shape it is partly due to what he's been putting into his body.

[TitanHope]

He had an interview scheduled tonight on NFL Network's Total Access, but has since cancelled it due to, *cough*, a "family emergency." :rolleyes:

[M.O.T.H.]

I dont think fans actually know how prominent steroid use really is with these kids prior to the NFL. So easy to obtain. I know so many loser high schoolers, DIII, DII, D1-AA kids who have used. Idiots. Especially those playing at those lower levels where there is no real future in it. They're all dumb asses, though. Again, steroids are very easy to obtain, and a lot of these idiots, jump at the chance to take them.

In my school specifically, tons of football players and wrestlers were using something or other.

[yourfavestoner]

These guys make millions... they know what they are putting into their bodies regardless of what anyone claims.

The cycle for trying to dodge the tests and such is incredibly complicated. They are heavily regimented.

Everyone is probably on something, but Maryland especially seems to be producing inhuman freaks in recent years and I'm willing to bet Shawn Merriman's knee is in the shape it is partly due to what he's been putting into his body.

Winner winner, chicken dinner.

[wonderbredd24]

I dont think fans actually know how prominent steroid use really is with these kids prior to the NFL. So easy to obtain. I know so many loser high schoolers, DIII, DII, D1-AA kids who have used. Idiots. Especially those playing at those lower levels where there is no real future in it. They're all dumb asses, though. Again, steroids are very easy to obtain, and a lot of these idiots, jump at the chance to take them.

NAIA doesn't test at all and Division II and III cannot test as often, because testing is incredibly expensive. I wanna say the Division II and III kids don't get tested until right before the playoffs, but I am probably wrong on that.

But it's hardly limited to anabolic steroids... there are lots of options out there and some, if not abused, are actually good for you like HGH, but few people have the control not to abuse them

[Complex]

Do the titans play the texans in the 1st 4 weeks of the regular season?

Yeah there is something going on in Maryland they produce Combine warriors

[Addict]

These guys make millions... they know what they are putting into their bodies regardless of what anyone claims.

The cycle for trying to dodge the tests and such is incredibly complicated. They are heavily regimented.

Everyone is probably on something, but Maryland especially seems to be producing inhuman freaks in recent years and I'm willing to bet Shawn Merriman's knee is in the shape it is partly due to what he's been putting into his body.

why the **** are we discussing Merriman here? Seriously I just pointed out that it's not necessarily steroids and you get on my case like I said something about your mom. Is that it?

[wonderbredd24]

why the **** are we discussing Merriman here? Seriously I just pointed out that it's not necessarily steroids and you get on my case like I said something about your mom. Is that it?
I'm not on anyone's case that I'm aware of, but you mentioned Shawn Merriman.

Whether or not either guy was suspended for anabolic steroids or something else, whatever they were taking was in an effort to get an edge and one the NFL has dubbed outside of their rules.

[Addict]

I'm not on anyone's case that I'm aware of, but you mentioned Shawn Merriman.

Whether or not either guy was suspended for anabolic steroids or something else, whatever they were taking was in an effort to get an edge and one the NFL has dubbed outside of their rules.

and I don't disagree with that, like I said he broke the rules, so he gets suspended. But to immediately assume this is pure steroids is just wrong. Besides, although he does have a freakish physique, I can't imagine him getting away with systematically juicing in a program like USC, with all the attention and all.

[FuzzyGopher]

and I don't disagree with that, like I said he broke the rules, so he gets suspended. But to immediately assume this is pure steroids is just wrong. Besides, although he does have a freakish physique, I can't imagine him getting away with systematically juicing in a program like USC, with all the attention and all.

I can assure you that a significant portion of college and NFL players take steroids. Urine tests are very easy to beat. How many guys do you think smoke pot in the league? And how many of them actually get caught?

[TitanHope]

The Texans first 4 games are the Colts, Cowboys, Raiders, and Redskins.

He was their best defensive player last year (although the likes of Mario Williams and DeMeco Ryans weren't juicers), so this is a catastrophic loss for them.

Also, he got busted a while ago. He's lost his appeal, so the official news has now come out. So there's no hope of him appealing this.

there are lots of options out there and some, if not abused, are actually good for you like HGH, but few people have the control not to abuse them

I wouldn't venture that far. Unless you are in an abolutely monitored and prescribed environment, HGH can be extremely hazardous. So even if you aren't abusing them, it can end up being unhealthy. The only way it is is if your body actually needs it because you have stunted growth or something like that. Using it for any other purpose is abusing it, so I don't see any athlete who'd use it without the purpose of abusing it, but that's more to the point you're making.

[Saints-Tigers]

Give me a break, I like you as a poster and all addict, but lets not be naive here. Everyone and their mother knew Cushing juices.

[wonderbredd24]

and I don't disagree with that, like I said he broke the rules, so he gets suspended. But to immediately assume this is pure steroids is just wrong. Besides, although he does have a freakish physique, I can't imagine him getting away with systematically juicing in a program like USC, with all the attention and all.
You get into a difficult area with this... for all of the attention programs like USC, Ohio State, Texas, Alabama, etc get, they also have obscene budgets and the means to hide more as well.

As a result, they are in a position to find people who can orchestrate a regiment with steroids, HGH, or whatever they want and cover it up, mask it, etc.

As for USC in particular, they evidently don't get that much attention because of all the violations they've been able to get away with such as with Reggie Bush, Dwayne Jarrett, etc which are still not resolved.

And this gets into more of a conspiracy theory tone than I'd like, but in some of these programs, the media or at least parts of it know and choose not to report it because they are fans of the programs they cover.

[CC.SD]

Everyone is probably on something, but Maryland especially seems to be producing inhuman freaks in recent years and I'm willing to bet Shawn Merriman's knee is in the shape it is partly due to what he's been putting into his body.

How could you possibly prove this...Merriman's knee got destroyed because a Titan dove into it. It's on film.

[wonderbredd24]

I can assure you that a significant portion of college and NFL players take steroids. Urine tests are very easy to beat. How many guys do you think smoke pot in the league? And how many of them actually get caught?

I don't remember the name of it, but there is an altered version of marijuana that won't come up on a test that's been on any test that's been employed to this point, so pro players who can easily afford it just opt for that.

[MichaelJordanEberle (sabf)]

I dont think fans actually know how prominent steroid use really is with these kids prior to the NFL. So easy to obtain. I know so many loser high schoolers, DIII, DII, D1-AA kids who have used. Idiots. Especially those playing at those lower levels where there is no real future in it. They're all dumb asses, though. Again, steroids are very easy to obtain, and a lot of these idiots, jump at the chance to take them.

In my school specifically, tons of football players and wrestlers were using something or other.

Yeah, not so much in my senior year but the year after I graduated I heard about a lot of guys who were using. Including some guys who I graduated with. Most of them weren't even athletes, just guys trying to get jacked. Stupid. I have one friend who is at Utah State, I don't think he uses. He's always denied it and I'm gonna believe him. He's massive though and works out all the time.

[wonderbredd24]

How could you possibly prove this...Merriman's knee got destroyed because a Titan dove into it. It's on film.
Steroids and substances like steroids cause ligament damage or prevent the ligament from growing at the same rate as the muscle so the ligaments are not in a position to support the knee, elbow, or whatever joint you want to use as an example.

As a result, these joints are more likely to be injured and at a greater risk for catastrophic injury.

Yes, Merriman was hurt on the field of play from a hit he took, but if he were not on steroids, the injury might not have been as disastrous.

I'll give you another example... remember Jamal Anderson, the running back for the Falcons? While I obviously can't prove it, I am of the belief he was on steroids because his legs were so freaking huge but his ligaments were in such bad shape that they could not possibly sustain the knee and as a result, he tore his knee up twice, the second on a routine cut, and was forced to retire.

You're right in that this is all speculation on my part, but I do think my thesis is supportable.

I'll give you the other side of this... I believe Troy Polamalua is clean or is about as clean as you're going to find in the NFL, because his joints are in fantastic shape and he focuses on muscle explosion rather than size. As a result, he's been able to be put in some positions that would tear up other players' legs or whathaveyou and not been injured. And I'm not saying that all knee injuries are evidence of steroids, but they do make them worse and more commonplace.

[MichaelJordanEberle (sabf)]

I can assure you that a significant portion of college and NFL players take steroids. Urine tests are very easy to beat. How many guys do you think smoke pot in the league? And how many of them actually get caught?

Wow, do they really only urine test? That's insane. I'm surprised anyone gets caught, you have to be a total idiot to be as rich as them and get caught with a urine test. All the new **** is pretty much undetectable in your urine, and there's stuff out there that can be in and out of your blood in 3 hours. That's why random testing is so important.

[CC.SD]

Steroids and substances like steroids cause ligament damage or prevent the ligament from growing at the same rate as the muscle so the ligaments are not in a position to support the knee, elbow, or whatever joint you want to use as an example.

As a result, these joints are more likely to be injured and at a greater risk for catastrophic injury.

Yes, Merriman was hurt on the field of play from a hit he took, but if he were not on steroids, the injury might not have been as disastrous.

I'll give you another example... remember Jamal Anderson, the running back for the Falcons? While I obviously can't prove it, I am of the belief he was on steroids because his legs were so freaking huge but his ligaments were in such bad shape that they could not possibly sustain the knee and as a result, he tore his knee up twice, the second on a routine cut, and was forced to retire.

You're right in that this is all speculation on my part, but I do think my thesis is supportable.

I'll give you the other side of this... I believe Troy Polamalua is clean or is about as clean as you're going to find in the NFL, because his joints are in fantastic shape and he focuses on muscle explosion rather than size. As a result, he's been able to be put in some positions that would tear up other players' legs or whathaveyou and not been injured. And I'm not saying that all knee injuries are evidence of steroids, but they do make them worse and more commonplace.

Anderson got used up like a sponge, see Larry Johnson.

This is entirely speculation... I mean you're holding up Troy, who I love, not being injured despite being in injury causing positions, as a means to convey that Merriman's recovery process is steroid related? I feel like I need to smoke something to even get through that sentence.

The weird thing is that Troy is nowhere near the illustration of physical health, even if that point made sense it is a horrible example choice.

there is nothing at all besides your own opinion saying steroids have anything to do with Merriman recovering from a torn ACL. Any research will tell you it's usually a 1-2 year recovery period for that injury. This is totally OT anyway.

[Rosebud]

I don't remember the name of it, but there is an altered version of marijuana that won't come up on a test that's been on any test that's been employed to this point, so pro players who can easily afford it just opt for that.

Yeah, but that **** sucks.

[scpanther22]

Jay Glazer
I'm waiting to hear from him but as u can imagine I'm absolutely furious. I wanna hear his side b4 I say anything. Right now tho I'm livid

Yes, livid about Cushing. Randy Couture and I have a pretty strict policy against cheaters. I need to hear from Brian b4 we make judgment
http://twitter.com/Jay_Glazer

[BlindSite]

Lets get something straight here. There's a "substance abuse policy"

Within that policy there's "steroids" "related substances" and "other"

"other" is stuff like weed, cocaine or whatever else.

"related substances" are non-steroidal or non anabolic substances, stuff like starcaps, which contain Buemantide (not sure on the spelling) which is a weight loss supplement that can be used to mask steroids. The Williamses got caught using these in minnesota not steroids.

Under the same rules there's ephedra and epherdrine which can be used as masking agents and in weight loss supplments. These are more banned because they can lead to dehydration which has killed players in the past. Peppers was done his rookie year for Ephedra not steroids

Merriman: from ESPN:
Merriman's positive test was "definitely for steroids … not one of those supplement deals," said a source with knowledge of Merriman's suspension earlier Monday. Both the initial A sample and backup B sample came back positive, Mortensen reported.Brian Cushing's positive was for a "banned substance" and imo, based on the massive amount of press about him "maybe" being on roids since freaking highschool, chances are even if it were a masking agent he's using there's never been the same report about the other guys I listed.

[bhaarat316]

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_Be4QS0xNreA/R0Ls0TCO22I/AAAAAAAAAK0/vvVLfJmwUq0/s400/MerrimanBeforeAfter.jpg


right meds

[bhaarat316]

Also Julius Peppers was suspended after his rookie year.

[wordofi]

Haha...why am I not surprised?

Same here. Dude is massive.

[SUP]

Steroids and substances like steroids cause ligament damage or prevent the ligament from growing at the same rate as the muscle so the ligaments are not in a position to support the knee, elbow, or whatever joint you want to use as an example.

As a result, these joints are more likely to be injured and at a greater risk for catastrophic injury.

Yes, Merriman was hurt on the field of play from a hit he took, but if he were not on steroids, the injury might not have been as disastrous.

I'll give you another example... remember Jamal Anderson, the running back for the Falcons? While I obviously can't prove it, I am of the belief he was on steroids because his legs were so freaking huge but his ligaments were in such bad shape that they could not possibly sustain the knee and as a result, he tore his knee up twice, the second on a routine cut, and was forced to retire.

You're right in that this is all speculation on my part, but I do think my thesis is supportable.

I'll give you the other side of this... I believe Troy Polamalua is clean or is about as clean as you're going to find in the NFL, because his joints are in fantastic shape and he focuses on muscle explosion rather than size. As a result, he's been able to be put in some positions that would tear up other players' legs or whathaveyou and not been injured. And I'm not saying that all knee injuries are evidence of steroids, but they do make them worse and more commonplace.

you're making a very blanket statement. I can find plenty of studies that show when used in moderate doses how steroids can HELP strengthen ligaments...

[ImBrotherCain]

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_Be4QS0xNreA/R0Ls0TCO22I/AAAAAAAAAK0/vvVLfJmwUq0/s400/MerrimanBeforeAfter.jpg


right meds



Bottom one or "Pre-steroids" He has a neck tattoo and top or "Post- steroids" the tattoo is gone.

I'm not really sure what i happen to be getting at but its just a tad suspicious.

and with the amount of tattoos that man has i doubt he had it removed.

[Whistler6]

@Adam_Schefter Filed to ESPN: Texans Rookie of the Year LB Brian Cushing is being suspended four games for violating NFL's steroids policy.

If Clay Mathews' name comes up anywhere near this, I will cry.

[coCANES17]

I guess all the whispers about Joe DeFranco's guys really are true. Woudln't be surprised to see David Diehl turn out to be a juice head as well. They're probably all on something crazy.

Is this really any big news though?

Anybody who saw this kid play at Bergen knew he was on something. He had the body of a 25 year old Olympian at age 17. That just doesn't happen naturally.

[bhaarat316]

Bottom one or "Pre-steroids" He has a neck tattoo and top or "Post- steroids" the tattoo is gone.

I'm not really sure what i happen to be getting at but its just a tad suspicious.

and with the amount of tattoos that man has i doubt he had it removed.

damn your right. Damn people and their photoshop.

[MichaelJordanEberle (sabf)]

The top one might be before he was caught, the bottom one after he was caught and stopped.

[TitanHope]

Bottom one or "Pre-steroids" He has a neck tattoo and top or "Post- steroids" the tattoo is gone.

I'm not really sure what i happen to be getting at but its just a tad suspicious.

and with the amount of tattoos that man has i doubt he had it removed.

Top one is supposed to be when he was using Steroids, and the bottom one is supposed to be what he looks like after coming off of them for a while. I dunno how that works though and how long a body takes to return to it's normal state.

[FUNBUNCHER]

What am StERoIDZZ!!??, Brian??

Ha, ha.


IMO no football program assists players in how to cycle anabolics; too risky for the program if someone talked and could easily result in a lifetime ban from the NCAA.

But whenever a coach at a top 20 program tells a kid, 'you need to gain about 30# to get significant playing time,' or, ' we'd give you a scholarship if only you could get a little bigger,' the message has been sent. At that point, it's not that hard to find someone who can help you bulk up using PE drugs.

Steriod use/anabolics are MUCH more prevalent in football than they ever were in baseball, IMO. Problem with a dummy like Cush is, once you get to the weight and strength level where you want to be, you quit cold turkey and bust your ass on a strict weightlifting and conditioning program, take massive amounts of protein, heavy doses of glutamine, and keep it moving.

Cush and Matthews IMO both were on something at some point during their HS, college, and/or pro careers.

Regardless, Matthews appears to be an extremely athletic guy from jump who used anabolics to fill out his frame.

Cushing, I wish I was surprised, but I heard all this crap about him as a prep. There was a thread on here somewhere about USC players taking steroids. If you've played football and go to a heavy duty gym on a regular basis, you just hear things about certain guys.

I have no doubt there are some players who have someone inside the league office who leaks to them ( for a price) when the NFL is going to test, and prepare themselves accordingly.
To get busted from a urine test takes a serious deficiency in brain cells!!, LOLOL!

As for Merriman, the dude was a less than 170# as a HS freshman and proceeded to put on 60# of muscle by his senior year. He then put on 25# of muscle in 2 years at UMD. Matthews has a similar weight gain arc from HS to college.
I love Merriman's game and he's one of my fav NFL players, but odds are he's juiced at some point during his career.

TO me it's hilarious how often Cushing denied ever taking 'roids prior to the draft, and BAM!, dude gets caught with is pants down.

People love to talk about how the game of football has gotten bigger, faster and stronger over the last 30 years, but trust me, that wasn't the natural march of human evolution.

It was chemical warfare at its finest being waged in every lockerroom throughout the NFL.

Not saying most football players have used illegal supplements, let's not forget there are legitimate freaks playing the game of football, but there are many more who have cycled than most fans are willing to admit, IMO.

[killxswitch]

Top one is supposed to be when he was using Steroids, and the bottom one is supposed to be what he looks like after coming off of them for a while. I dunno how that works though and how long a body takes to return to it's normal state.

It depends on how intense your training after you cycle off. If he stopped in conjunction with his injury then he could've easily lost his mass quickly.

[ImBrotherCain]

The top one might be before he was caught, the bottom one after he was caught and stopped.

Top one is supposed to be when he was using Steroids, and the bottom one is supposed to be what he looks like after coming off of them for a while. I dunno how that works though and how long a body takes to return to it's normal state.

Very well could be. I tried to find some older pictures of him to see if he had the tat then

What am StERoIDZZ!!??, Brian??


Matthews IMO both were on something at some point during their HS, college, and/or pro careers.

Regardless, Matthews appears to be an extremely athletic guy from jump who used anabolics to fill out his frame.



Shut your dirty mouth!

[yourfavestoner]

Bottom one or "Pre-steroids" He has a neck tattoo and top or "Post- steroids" the tattoo is gone.

I'm not really sure what i happen to be getting at but its just a tad suspicious.

and with the amount of tattoos that man has i doubt he had it removed.

The top one is Merriman's head photoshopped onto Jamal Williams' body. I remember seeing it discussed and proved on another forum.

[ImBrotherCain]

The top one is Merriman's head photoshopped onto Jamal Williams' body. I remember seeing it discussed and proved on another forum.

Sure looks like it now you say it

http://archive.profootballtalk.com/Williams2005.jpg

[Addict]

The top one is Merriman's head photoshopped onto Jamal Williams' body. I remember seeing it discussed and proved on another forum.

lol it's inventive I'll give them that.

[JoeJoeBrown]

Like it has been said before, a large percentage of these guys use PDEs. HGH if you are rich. Roids if not so rich.

I will die laughing if Tebow gets caught. The dude's face is stretched taut over that puffy massive head.

[P-L]

I'm surprised... That this didn't come out sooner.

[LookItsAlDavis]

Nevermind.....

[Halsey]

This doesn't surprise me. I had heard rumors and Cushing just kinda looks like a guy on PEDs.

[49erNation85]

sucks for him about this happening . But he learn the hard way and hopefully get clean .

[JoeJoeBrown]

This doesn't surprise me. I had heard rumors and Cushing just kinda looks like a guy on PEDs.

Yeah, his forehead was growing a forehead.

[Mr. Goosemahn]

Yeah, that image of Merriman was fake, they did it for coffee mugs or something stupid like that. They needed a team photo for Merriman and didn't have one, and used a fake one.

Notice the wrinkles of the jersey, including the shoulder pads. They're identical.

http://broncotalk.net/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2008/06/merrimanbeforeafter.jpg

http://archive.profootballtalk.com/Williams2005.jpg

[Flyboy]

... you don't say. Really?

[Xenos]

These guys make millions... they know what they are putting into their bodies regardless of what anyone claims.

The cycle for trying to dodge the tests and such is incredibly complicated. They are heavily regimented.

Everyone is probably on something, but Maryland especially seems to be producing inhuman freaks in recent years and I'm willing to bet Shawn Merriman's knee is in the shape it is partly due to what he's been putting into his body.

And I'm willing to bet it's because he waited so long to have surgery on it. His knee wasn't the main problem last year. It was the other injuries that occurred because he was trying to compensate for it.

[Xenos]

How could you possibly prove this...Merriman's knee got destroyed because a Titan dove into it. It's on film.

Correction. Two Titans dove on it. And he still managed to come back from the injury to help the team in the playoffs. The main issue is how long he waited to get it repaired once the season was over.

[Xenos]

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_Be4QS0xNreA/R0Ls0TCO22I/AAAAAAAAAK0/vvVLfJmwUq0/s400/MerrimanBeforeAfter.jpg


right meds

You do know that's a photoshop of Merriman's head on Jamal William's body on the first picture right?

[bhaarat316]

You do know that's a photoshop of Merriman's head on Jamal William's body on the first picture right?

i did after everyone in this thread mentioned it, before you.

[TimD]

haha. Worst kept secret ever. All those Bergen Catholic kids are juicers.


lol yup common knowledge round these parts

[Xenos]

i did after everyone in this thread mentioned it, before you.

No worries. It was my pleasure helping out.

[Monomach]

Yeah, shocking.

Like hundreds of us weren't beating this drum before last year's draft.

[nobodyinparticular]

Not surprised.

http://www.thedirty.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/05/cstrh23e8ggb.jpg

Yep.... I don't believe anyone should be surprised by this "development".

[nobodyinparticular]

Yeah, shocking.

Like hundreds of us weren't beating this drum before last year's draft.

Well, there were still hundreds who were beating Cushing's "drum" leading up to the draft regardless of the steroid speculation. The drum that is now most likely shriveled due to the roiding.

[ATLDirtyBirds]

Pretty unsurprising.

[umphrey]

I wonder why people don't talk about legal prescription drug abuse more?

I take Adderall (amphetamine) legally prescribed and whenever I work out or play sports I'm twice as good as when I don't take it. I heard that is the new rage in baseball right now, which makes complete total sense with my experience with the drug. Another one is benzos for golfers. Rumor is a lot of them take it to be calm and relaxed under the intense pressure. Then there's painkillers for football. Yeah they need them, but a linebacker doped out on oxycotton (maybe make an adderall cocktail to keep focused and energized) will sure as hell play with that intense, sacrifice your body for he play mentality pretty easily.

[TitanHope]

I wonder why people don't talk about legal prescription drug abuse more?

I take Adderall (amphetamine) legally prescribed and whenever I work out or play sports I'm twice as good as when I don't take it. I heard that is the new rage in baseball right now, which makes complete total sense with my experience with the drug. Another one is benzos for golfers. Rumor is a lot of them take it to be calm and relaxed under the intense pressure. Then there's painkillers for football. Yeah they need them, but a linebacker doped out on oxycotton (maybe make an adderall cocktail to keep focused and energized) will sure as hell play with that intense, sacrifice your body for he play mentality pretty easily.

I'm prescribed both Adderall and Oxycontin. Haven't noticed anything athletically when on them, but oddly enough, I have noticed the sound of my singing voice is way better.

http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w274/willzweigart/the_more_you_know.jpg

[bam bam]

Without Adderall, I would not have graduated college

[Addict]

to illustrate my earlier point:

The only unknown is the identity of the substance found in his system. But the problem with the confidentiality of the steroids policy is that Cushing or anyone else who tests positive can claim that he took a tainted supplement or otherwise accidentally ingested one of the many non-steroids that appear on the list of banned substances, even if the player actually was knowingly and intentionally using steroids.

this works both ways, IMO. With Cushing especially the assumption will be that he took steroids.

Again, I don't know if he took them, I tend to think he did too, but it's not sure.

[Brent]

Without Adderall, I would not have graduated college
due to severe ADHD or because you needed it to pull all-nighters?

[Splat]

http://www.houstontexans.com/news/Story.asp?story_id=6151

STATEMENT FROM HOUSTON TEXANS GM RICK SMITH

"We were disappointed to learn that Brian has been suspended for the first four games of the 2010 season. Brian is a productive member of our team and this is a significant loss, but we have to be prepared to win without him."

Not disappointed he took them just that he got caught.

[gsorace]

I take Adderall (amphetamine) legally prescribed and whenever I work out or play sports I'm twice as good as when I don't take it. I heard that is the new rage in baseball right now

Baseball players have been taking amphetamines since the 60's. Willie Mays, Hank Aaron, Mike Schmidt and I'm sure many others took them.

[the dude]

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/sports/fb/texansfront/6995505.html

“We're very disappointed, and he's disappointed, too,” Texans owner Bob McNair said Friday. “It was a surprise to us.

“Unfortunately, these things happen in the NFL. They're like injuries in that you can never predict them.”

right :rolleyes:

[LonghornsLegend]

Worst kept secret ever.

[zachsaints52]

He didn't do it. SCAM!

[Addict]

http://feelhomeimprovement.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/08/breville-juicer.jpg

[wicket]

couldve been worse

http://admin.moguling.com/Upload/baseballblog247.com/steroids.jpg

[zachsaints52]

No way thats real.

[Addict]

No way thats real.

I agree, no way you can use that many steroids and still have decent size balls.

[Pryme]

via Rotoworld

Suspended LB Brian Cushing's positive test for steroids occurred last year.
This could potentially jeopardize his Rookie of the Year trophy. Cushing appealed the ban and lost, so he won't get out of missing this season's first four games. Haunted by steroid rumors at USC and in high school, Cushing has long publicly denied that he's a cheater. FOX Sports' Jay Glazer indicated Friday that his MMA team may consider banning Cushing from training.

Source: Houston Chronicle


So who'll be the new DROY? Mathews? Byrd?

[zachsaints52]

I agree, no way you can use that many steroids and still have decent size balls.

No really... that has to be fake.

[MetSox17]

Of course it's fake, just look at his knees and waist, it's obviously a doctored picture. But with that said, don't underestimate how ridiculous some body builders are. They grow muscles on muscles in places where you shouldn't even have any.

[JoeJoeBrown]

Without Adderall, I would not have graduated college

And one wonders what the world would have been like with one less communications degree holder?

[yourfavestoner]

I wonder why people don't talk about legal prescription drug abuse more?

I take Adderall (amphetamine) legally prescribed and whenever I work out or play sports I'm twice as good as when I don't take it. I heard that is the new rage in baseball right now, which makes complete total sense with my experience with the drug. Another one is benzos for golfers. Rumor is a lot of them take it to be calm and relaxed under the intense pressure. Then there's painkillers for football. Yeah they need them, but a linebacker doped out on oxycotton (maybe make an adderall cocktail to keep focused and energized) will sure as hell play with that intense, sacrifice your body for he play mentality pretty easily.

Jesus Christ, I can only imagine somebody doped up on Addys and Oxy at the same time. Mixing those kind of extreme uppers and downers at the same time is a heart attack waiting to happen at any second.

But yes, I've made posts on this before. Prescription pills are the NFL's dirty little secret. I'm interested in how the Saints Vicodin fiasco will play out.

[Brent]

And one wonders what the world would have been like with one less communications degree holder?

http://i289.photobucket.com/albums/ll205/chrishmush/clapping.gif

well done, sir, well done.

[Razor]

Can't say that this came as a surprise.
http://www.thedirty.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/05/cstrh23e8ggb.jpg

[Whistler6]

I wish Jay Glazer would stop acting like he's so important. He's acting like Cushing let HIM down. Jay, you were helping him train in MMA for the NFL. Cushing let his teammates down, the organization down and Texans' fans down, not you. Stick to your (half ass) reporting. I usually like his stuff, but this little Twitter binge he's on right now is ridiculous.

http://twitter.com/Jay_Glazer

I'm waiting to hear from him but as u can imagine I'm absolutely furious. I wanna hear his side b4 I say anything. Right now tho I'm livid

Yes, livid about Cushing. Randy Couture and I have a pretty strict policy against cheaters. I need to hear from Brian b4 we make judgment

RT @bgibbs10 (http://twitter.com/bgibbs10): @Jay_Glazer (http://twitter.com/Jay_Glazer) Do you have a policy in place for people within your group that take PEDs?>Yup, we don't train em

I talked w Couture last night, we are both extremely pissed about the whole mess, just being associated w any of this crap

In today's NFL guys have to be fully responsible for what goes in their bodies. I don't care if it was steroidal or not, it's on the player!


Right now, no, we will not be training him. We do not want to be associated w any of this crap. Gotta cool off b4 we make a final decision

[JoeJoeBrown]

http://i289.photobucket.com/albums/ll205/chrishmush/clapping.gif

well done, sir, well done.

Alright! That's it for me. Goodnight
everybody!

http://weblogs.sun-sentinel.com/news/politics/palm/blog/jalexander_375x375.jpg

[J-Mike88]

I can't believe Bozworth is suspended.
How fortunate for the Cowboys they get to face the Texans with the guy suspended.

[Whistler6]

And Glazer strikes again...Shut up Jay! You didn't lose a child. You trained him a few times to get better for his real job, being an NFL player. This story is NOT about you!


Hey, this is new ground for me and randy, we're trying to swim our way through. I don't think there's any clear-cut answer. Day by day


http://twitter.com/Jay_Glazer

[jballa838]

nobody is clean anymore at the highest level. worst kept secret.

[K Train]

Do the titans play the texans in the 1st 4 weeks of the regular season?

Yeah there is something going on in Maryland they produce Combine warriors

its the under armour, it makes them built for speed with the latest fashion in athletic attire


lol

[K Train]

Without Adderall, I would not have graduated college

i know, best thing ever for students lol

[TitanHope]

And Glazer strikes again...Shut up Jay! You didn't lose a child. You trained him a few times to get better for his real job, being an NFL player. This story is NOT about you!

http://twitter.com/Jay_Glazer

We're looking at this too much through a football perspective and less through a training program's perspective. Cushing could be his flagship guy (I dunno who he trains, but he probably is proud about training a DPOY) for his program. He's probably royally pissed about being associated with a guy who's been abusing PED's as he's trying to get his training thing off the ground and getting more upper tier players into joining it. He's ranting on his Twitter. That's what Twitter is for. At least he's not writing an article on how Cush broke his heart (although, one could be on the way. Who knows?).

A training program being associated with a prominant athlete who's been busted for PED's is never a positive reflection of the program. Now, I think most people have enough sense to think Glazer and Couture have nothing to do with the positive test, but they're probably extremely disappointed in Cush right now and may be being forced to cut ties with their most prominant, promising trainee. They have the right to vent their anger and disappointment.

[TitleTown088]

And one wonders what the world would have been like with one less communications degree holder?

Academic slam, nice.

Sometimes I think some of the Aderal/ADD think is an excuse for kids who don't apply themselves. I've said it before and I'll say it agian, those drugs are the steroids of academics.

[K Train]

Academic slam, nice.

Sometimes I think some of the Aderal/ADD think is an excuse for kids who don't apply themselves. I've said it before and I'll say it agian, those drugs are the steroids of academics.

being a college student i agree with you, its not even remotely fair to study or write papers on adderall...but damn is it a nice advantage to have.

then again id be pro-steroids....its good television

[yourfavestoner]

We're looking at this too much through a football perspective and less through a training program's perspective. Cushing could be his flagship guy (I dunno who he trains, but he probably is proud about training a DPOY) for his program. He's probably royally pissed about being associated with a guy who's been abusing PED's as he's trying to get his training thing off the ground and getting more upper tier players into joining it. He's ranting on his Twitter. That's what Twitter is for. At least he's not writing an article on how Cush broke his heart (although, one could be on the way. Who knows?).

A training program being associated with a prominant athlete who's been busted for PED's is never a positive reflection of the program. Now, I think most people have enough sense to think Glazer and Couture have nothing to do with the positive test, but they're probably extremely disappointed in Cush right now and may be being forced to cut ties with their most prominant, promising trainee. They have the right to vent their anger and disappointment.

Die-hard football fans not be narrow-minded? Preposterous!

[yourfavestoner]

Academic slam, nice.

Sometimes I think some of the Aderal/ADD think is an excuse for kids who don't apply themselves. I've said it before and I'll say it agian, those drugs are the steroids of academics.

Mmmm...I guess I buy that. I think we'd both have to agree, though, that there's a huge difference in that steroids help your performance long after you take them, whereas a psychoactive stimulant like adderall is only in effect for a few hours. Really, all adderall does is make you pay really close attention. You'd be capable of doing that without it, you just don't have the self-discipline to.

Ultimately, though, yeah they're similar. They both have a legal intended purpose and abuse of them creates serious advantages over people who do not have access to them or choose not to use them outside of their intended medical purpose.

Could you also, then, make the argument that psychoactive drugs are steroids to introspection? ;) After all, Natives priests took peyote for a reason.

[Ravens1991]

I was wondering, if you were in Cushings shoes would you juice up? Knowing roids can get you the NFL career you have always dreamed about.

[nobodyinparticular]

I was wondering, if you were in Cushings shoes would you juice up? Knowing roids can get you the NFL career you have always dreamed about.

There are very few people who could legitimately say that they would not at least contemplate this. It's a hard choice. Fame, fortune, playing the sport you absolutely love and getting paid to do it, all at the small price of a person's integrity. In the business world, it's called dog-eat-dog. You scratch and claw, climbing your way to the CEO position atop the bodies of those you sacrificed at the altar of your career. It happens all the time. Just like steroids/growth hormone in sports. Integrity for success. To reach your goals.

I would have a very difficult time saying no, especially considering my passion for the game. However, in the end, I do believe I would be able to pass the opportunity by. I would probably be like Uncle Rico as I aged, reminiscing of the opportunity I had and what it would have been like, but for this instance I would choose to be the "what if" guy.

My integrity is too valuable to waste it on a dozen years of notoriety playing the sport I love.

[Shiver]

Look at Merriman, or Rodriguez in baseball. After an initial burst of negative reaction they pretty much got off with a slap on the wrist. The negative incentives aren't nearly high enough to reduce usage in pro sports. For every Brian Cushing who gets caught there is no doubt a majority of NFL players who get away with it.

[LonghornsLegend]

There are very few people who could legitimately say that they would not at least contemplate this. It's a hard choice. Fame, fortune, playing the sport you absolutely love and getting paid to do it, all at the small price of a person's integrity. In the business world, it's called dog-eat-dog. You scratch and claw, climbing your way to the CEO position atop the bodies of those you sacrificed at the altar of your career. It happens all the time. Just like steroids/growth hormone in sports. Integrity for success. To reach your goals.

I would have a very difficult time saying no, especially considering my passion for the game. However, in the end, I do believe I would be able to pass the opportunity by. I would probably be like Uncle Rico as I aged, reminiscing of the opportunity I had and what it would have been like, but for this instance I would choose to be the "what if" guy.

My integrity is too valuable to waste it on a dozen years of notoriety playing the sport I love.


Yea but it's not just the integrity you lose, it's alot more important to some people knowing the health risk and concerns.


It could just be a small price of losing integrity to some, but the longterm health risk of using roids would be alot more important and a much bigger concern to me then integrity.

[K Train]

id do them...no doubt.

i do wish they were allowed in sports, these guys know the benefits/risks of them. its good television, is that a ****** up way of looking at it? sure, but im over it

[umphrey]

id do them...no doubt.

i do wish they were allowed in sports, these guys know the benefits/risks of them. its good television, is that a ****** up way of looking at it? sure, but im over it

How could you watch a sport where the winners were the ones who killed themselves the most with drugs? And makes any kid from high school to college with any hope at all of going pro start juicing out of necessity?

[GoRavens]

Its obvious that football players are on allllllllllllllllll sorts of supplements.
Since highschool these kids have been taking so much ****, it really is crazy.
BIGGER STRONGER FASTER. everybody does it.
**** Brian Cushing though.
He seems like a wicked cocky pickle suckin knucklehead

[wonderbredd24]

id do them...no doubt.

i do wish they were allowed in sports, these guys know the benefits/risks of them. its good television, is that a ****** up way of looking at it? sure, but im over it

I respect this from a Steeler's fan considering their Superbowl teams of the 70's

[FuzzyGopher]

How could you watch a sport where the winners were the ones who killed themselves the most with drugs? And makes any kid from high school to college with any hope at all of going pro start juicing out of necessity?

Lol, steroids don't kill people. And you're watching a sport where people suffer life long brain trauma from repeated concussions and blows to the head.

[yourfavestoner]

Lol, steroids don't kill people. And you're watching a sport where people suffer life long brain trauma from repeated concussions and blows to the head.

Exactly. In 20 years, all the players you know and love are going to be vegetables anyways.

[LonghornsLegend]

Cushings tested positive for Steroids in September before the season even started, so the ROY could end up going to Byrd.


Being that it was so early in his first season, leads me to believe he has been cycling on and off the juice for the past few years at USC.

[D-Unit]

Like I say... Cheaters ALWAYS win.

[K Train]

I respect this from a Steeler's fan considering their Superbowl teams of the 70's

wasnt around in the 70s but i hate them just because steeler fans who were around in the 70s make me hate them acting like they were the best team ever and the best players ever and acting like they wouldnt get schooled in todays league. even pittsburgh jesus himself terry bradshaw did them.

anyway, ive done some before in high school...if you dont abuse the **** out of them they arent that dangerous, i have friends on them right now. the cycles are very particular and when you go off them you have to take the post cycle hormones that keep you from getting all ****** up.

i played football and basketball all through highschool, could have played at 2 colleges but chose the better school. i dont do them anymore, the only thing i do take is creatine and im fine. steroids really dont kill you like someone said above, im not saying they are great for you and im not says there isnt a risk of long term effects but wtf is good for you anyway. everything has a risk of giving you cancer...so we are all gonna die eventually, so die being the best lol

i really dont expect anyone to agree with me, being pro steroids is like being pro drunk driving apparently but even the clean cut golden boys of sports might do them, and i dont mean like pro body builders but do them to some extent regardless

if you abuse ANYTHING your ****** regardless, not just steroids

[K Train]

Lol, steroids don't kill people. And you're watching a sport where people suffer life long brain trauma from repeated concussions and blows to the head.

excellent...love it

[K Train]

Like I say... Cheaters ALWAYS win.

idk if your being serious or sarcastic, but id rather cheat than work hard any day of the week...does that make me a bad person...maybe? i guess its up for interpretation

[prock]

idk if your being serious or sarcastic, but id rather cheat than work hard any day of the week...does that make me a bad person...maybe? i guess its up for interpretation

Who wouldn't? Sadly, life doesn't work that way. The AP should take his award away.

[Splat]

The AP should take his award away.

I agree.

I know it has been talked about but I don't think they will.

[wonderbredd24]

Who wouldn't? Sadly, life doesn't work that way. The AP should take his award away.
In theory, this sounds good and Jairus Byrd had a great season, but if you take away his award, how many more awards need to be taken away or championships?

Right off the top of my head Reggie Bush needs to give back his Heisman and was he there for USC's national title and faux title? Those would have to be given back too.

It's an unending process of taking away and reawarding a ton of awards

[MichaelJordanEberle (sabf)]

In theory, this sounds good and Jairus Byrd had a great season, but if you take away his award, how many more awards need to be taken away or championships?

Right off the top of my head Reggie Bush needs to give back his Heisman and was he there for USC's national title and faux title? Those would have to be given back too.

It's an unending process of taking away and reawarding a ton of awards

A scandal appearing long after the event =/= a failed steroid test before the season.

[wonderbredd24]

A scandal appearing long after the event =/= a failed steroid test before the season.

So as long as the truth isn't revealed until a ways after the fact, it's ok?

So the message is... it's ok to cheat as long as you don't get caught until a certain amount of time after an achievement was accomplished.

[umphrey]

Per JSOnline, there is talk that he is losing his DPOY award and there is a possibility of a re-vote for DPOY. Cushing got 39 votes to 6-Byrd 3-Matthews 2-Orakpo so it would make sense to vote again. Byrd didn't get hardly any votes relatively, so when you redistribute those 39 votes for Cushing any of those 3 could win it realistically.

[yourfavestoner]

Per JSOnline, there is talk that he is losing his DPOY award and there is a possibility of a re-vote for DPOY. Cushing got 39 votes to 6-Byrd 3-Matthews 2-Orakpo so it would make sense to vote again. Byrd didn't get hardly any votes relatively, so when you redistribute those 39 votes for Cushing any of those 3 could win it realistically.

Does the Merriman Rule only count for Pro Bowl selections?

[MichaelJordanEberle (sabf)]

So as long as the truth isn't revealed until a ways after the fact, it's ok?

So the message is... it's ok to cheat as long as you don't get caught until a certain amount of time after an achievement was accomplished.

Well let's not confuse Reggie Bush cheating with steroids either. I think taking a little bit of money is a whole hell of a lot different. Also, let's just look at the facts here.

If we were to get all butthurt about Reggie taking some money and go to the extreme, we have:
A change of Heisman
A change of NC Winner(s)

Two really big deals, for something that really isn't that major.

If we take Cushing's situation and move to get rid of his award, we change:
A ******* ROTY trophy.

That's it. And he failed this test before the season even started. That's direct evidence that affected his play on the field. Did Reggie Bush taking money make him a better football player? No. He was looking to make a little cash, God forbid the players that schools make millions off of make a dime themselves.

[wonderbredd24]

Well let's not confuse Reggie Bush cheating with steroids either. I think taking a little bit of money is a whole hell of a lot different. Also, let's just look at the facts here.

If we were to get all butthurt about Reggie taking some money and go to the extreme, we have:
A change of Heisman
A change of NC Winner(s)

Two really big deals, for something that really isn't that major.

If we take Cushing's situation and move to get rid of his award, we change:
A ******* ROTY trophy.

That's it. And he failed this test before the season even started. That's direct evidence that affected his play on the field. Did Reggie Bush taking money make him a better football player? No. He was looking to make a little cash, God forbid the players that schools make millions off of make a dime themselves.
Taking money isn't that big of a deal? I'm sure all of the kids who did it the right way in college and didn't take money might have a different opinion on that.

As for money making Reggie Bush a better player? Hard to say... would money afford him better food, better supplements, more time to train, and the ability to have private training in the offseason? Yes, it would. Did he do any of that? I have no idea, but the bottom line is it's cheating and dismissing it as not a big deal is part of the reason this type of thing continues to happen. It is a big deal. Doing it makes him ineligible to play, ineligible to win awards, and ineligible for his team to win a national title and he knew all of that when he did it

[locseti]

Well it's looking more and more like the AP is going to strip him of the award, which is the right thing to do. I preferred Matthews coming out due to Cushing's obvious penchant for juicing, and now look how his stupid decisions are affecting his team. Then he appealed and said he the positive test wasn't for steroids, just ****.

[bearsfan_51]

Bush would have been ineligible to play had he been caught at the time, meaning that everything he accomplished that season should be considered invalid.

[bearsfan_51]

Well let's not confuse Reggie Bush cheating with steroids either. I think taking a little bit of money is a whole hell of a lot different.
As a personal belief that's fine. Within the rules of the sport, however, it's categorically false.

[GhostDeini]

Turns out Cushing is an absolute fraud, what a surprise. Them USC guys just aren't built for this.

Ask Joe McKnight throwing up all over himself in a mini camp. Pathetic.

[yourfavestoner]

Turns out Cushing is an absolute fraud, what a surprise. Them USC guys just aren't built for this.

Ask Joe McKnight throwing up all over himself in a mini camp. Pathetic.

Yup, I've been saying this for years. USC prospects (skill position players especially) are vastly overrated. They've got a good linebacker reputation (even with this Cushing scandal), but they pretty much suck across the board at other positions.

I still think it's funny that little Steve Smith has ended up the best skill position player to come out of there. He's the record holder for most career receptions at SC (might be the holder for yards too) but he was always in the shadow of Mike Williams/Dwayne Jarrett/Reggie Bush/Lenwhale White/Matt Leinart.

And I'm very happy to say that I hated all of those guys as prospects. I still don't understand how people didn't get that Mike Williams and Jarrett were clones of each other and would never be able to get seperation in the NFL (I know...it makes you look really good when you're outjumping 5'8 Pac-10 corners). Or that Reggie Bush was a slot receiver miscast as a RB (just look at his skinny little chicken legs - same reason McFadden is failing in Oakland and why McKnight will fail). Or that Lenwhale was just another Ron Dayne back (a fatboy with good feet so he thinks he's a scatback and tries to juke people out...yet goes down on first contact). Or that Matt Leinart was anything more than a taller Ken Dorsey.

I hate USC hype. Hate it, hate it, hate it. (sorry CC.SD)

[dannyz]

Give the award to Clay Matthews

[Shiver]

USC has had good linebackers and O-Line players though.

[yourfavestoner]

USC has had good linebackers and O-Line players though.

Yeah, I said they've had great linebacker prospects and success - even with the Cushing incident. Tatupu is great, and Malualuga, Rivers, Matthews, and Cushing don't look like they're going away any time soon.

I can't really say with any certainty for their offensive lineman...the only one who was supposed to go high was Winston Justice and he plummeted from top 10 pick to 2nd rounder. I don't really know how he's faired in the pros other than getting ass-raped by Osi a few seasons ago.

Anybody know how Deuce Lutui is doing? Or the center that ended up going to Carolina?

[wonderbredd24]

Yeah, I said they've had great linebacker prospects and success - even with the Cushing incident. Tatupu is great, and Malualuga, Rivers, Matthews, and Cushing don't look like they're going away any time soon.

I can't really say with any certainty for their offensive lineman...the only one who was supposed to go high was Winston Justice and he plummeted from top 10 pick to 2nd rounder. I don't really know how he's faired in the pros other than getting ass-raped by Osi a few seasons ago.

Anybody know how Deuce Lutui is doing? Or the center that ended up going to Carolina?

Am I missing something? What did Maualuga do as a rookie? I keep hearing how well he did, but in 2 games against the Browns, I never saw him do anything or even noticed him on the field. I couldn't stand him as a prospect in college, because he'd make a big hit and then be out of position 90% of the time. I just don't get it I guess

Edit: By the way, Kaluka Maiava isn't a bad football player, but I still don't think he's a good fit in the 3-4 with the Browns... we'll see how much more bulk he can add to his frame

[bigbluedefense]

Yeah, I said they've had great linebacker prospects and success - even with the Cushing incident. Tatupu is great, and Malualuga, Rivers, Matthews, and Cushing don't look like they're going away any time soon.

I can't really say with any certainty for their offensive lineman...the only one who was supposed to go high was Winston Justice and he plummeted from top 10 pick to 2nd rounder. I don't really know how he's faired in the pros other than getting ass-raped by Osi a few seasons ago.

Anybody know how Deuce Lutui is doing? Or the center that ended up going to Carolina?

Sam Baker is a solid LT for the Falcons. Winston Justice is the starting RT for the Eagles and he's pretty darn good now. That Osi game was just 1 game.

Lutui is a pretty good Guard for the Falcons. Kalil is a stud for the Panthers.

[yourfavestoner]

Sam Baker is a solid LT for the Falcons. Winston Justice is the starting RT for the Eagles and he's pretty darn good now. That Osi game was just 1 game.

Lutui is a pretty good Guard for the Falcons. Kalil is a stud for the Panthers.

Yeah, I haven't really paid attention to their lineman. I'm glad they're doing well, because they were the ones that were mauling through Pac-10 defenses and got all those overrated skill position players drafted way higher than they should have been.

[VernonLawson89]

It's official, The AP is doing a re-count.

[bigbluedefense]

Schefter is reporting that Cush took and passed a lie detector test saying that he didn't take PEDs.

Interesting. I don't buy it.

[prock]

Taking money isn't that big of a deal? I'm sure all of the kids who did it the right way in college and didn't take money might have a different opinion on that.

As for money making Reggie Bush a better player? Hard to say... would money afford him better food, better supplements, more time to train, and the ability to have private training in the offseason? Yes, it would. Did he do any of that? I have no idea, but the bottom line is it's cheating and dismissing it as not a big deal is part of the reason this type of thing continues to happen. It is a big deal. Doing it makes him ineligible to play, ineligible to win awards, and ineligible for his team to win a national title and he knew all of that when he did it

Money doesn't help him be a better player at all. He isn't getting better supplements, food, training, etc than anyone else at a major D-1 college like that. If you want to take away a Heisman and a NC because Bush took some money, go ahead, but don't compare it to a guy getting caught taking steroids before the season even started. They are completely different situations, and not comparable in the slightest way.

[Mr. Goosemahn]

It's official, The AP is doing a re-count.

Yup, Sportscenter just announced it too.

I think it goes to another USC linebacker, Clay Matthews.

Schefter is reporting that Cush took and passed a lie detector test saying that he didn't take PEDs.

Interesting. I don't buy it.

Pretty interesting, but I know that's its possible to "cheat" on a lie detector test. It's hard, but possible.

[prock]

Schefter is reporting that Cush took and passed a lie detector test saying that he didn't take PEDs.

Interesting. I don't buy it.

Lie detectors are the most inaccurate, worthless pieces of **** in the world. They are not legitimate in the slightest way. I could take a lie detector right now and promise that I am a 6 year old female prostitute and pass it.

[Mr. Goosemahn]

Also, he failed the test back in February I think, and appealed. They denied his appeal last week, and that's why the news is coming out right now.

This means he likely took the PEDs or whatever he took during the season, not during the off-season. Don't know if you guys already knew that, but I thought he took it after the season was over.

[prock]

Yup, Sportscenter just announced it too.

I think it goes to another USC linebacker, Clay Matthews.



Pretty interesting, but I know that's its possible to "cheat" on a lie detector test. It's hard, but possible.

No, it is not hard. Seriously, lie detectors are not reliable. The only reason they use them is because dumbasses think they are legit and get scared, and being scared increases heart rate, etc, which can be detected on the detector, and scare people into confessing. They cannot be cited in court. They are not a reliable test.

[Don Vito]

I'm surprised they are going to re-vote, it makes sense but I didn't think they would do it. Curious to see how a juice-less Cushing does in the NFL.

[superman]

Just out of curiosity, what rookies showed up big in the play offs? That could weigh in on some voter's minds even though it's not supposed to.

[GB12]

Just out of curiosity, what rookies showed up big in the play offs? That could weigh in on some voter's minds even though it's not supposed to.
It's between Byrd, Matthews, and Orakpo. No one else is in the discussion.


Clay Matthews had a sack and a forced fumble. Of course there were also 51 points put up against the defense.

Byrd and Orakpo didn't make the playoffs.

[Don Vito]

Jairus Byrdzz? I am still kind of pissed we passed on him, not as much as Matthews or Maualuga at the time but I still liked Byrd.

[MichaelJordanEberle (sabf)]

So is now the good time to post the screencap of Jairus Byrd calling someone a *** on facebook?

[Ravens1991]

please do that would be funny.

[TitanHope]

Love, love, LOVE that they're actually doing a re-vote! Cush shouldn't be allowed to keep his award after cheating, and if he did the record books should have a big, fat * after his name.

My vote would've been to Clay Matthews Jr. originally, so I hope he wins - although, and I hate to say it, but he had steroid rumors too.

I'll go 1) Matthews, 2) Byrd, and 3) Orakpo.

[bam bam]

So they are taking the award from one guy who has been caught doing steroids and giving it to somebody else who likely does them but has yet to get caught.

[TitanHope]

So they are taking the award from one guy who has been caught doing steroids and giving it to somebody else who likely does them but has yet to get caught.

Yes, seeing as how getting caught is the only factor that attributes guilt. If Matthews Jr. hasn't tested positive, then he has every right to win it.

[GB12]

Besides his close relationship to Cushing is there any reason to believe Matthews used steroids?

[wonderbredd24]

Besides his close relationship to Cushing is there any reason to believe Matthews used steroids?

Went from walk on safety and special teamer to rush end during his career at USC... that's not an indictment, but he did get substantially bigger

[yourfavestoner]

Besides his close relationship to Cushing is there any reason to believe Matthews used steroids?

He was a 6'1 165 lbs safety as a junior in high school. His dad was his defensive coordinator and didn't start him. He was a solid player his junior year who got little notice from D1 schools.

He walked on at USC (dad and older bro's alma mater).

He gained 81 pounds of muscle, lost little to no speed, and became a DE.

You be the judge.

http://grg51.typepad.com/.a/6a00d8341c61ab53ef01156f5d5507970c-pi

Just look at that jaw structure.

[GoRavens]

Taylor Mays lives off of steroids, protein bars & Men's Health magazines.

[umphrey]

Clay Matthews is NOT guilty by association :(

[MetSox17]

Just give it to Osackpo

[TitanHope]

Matthews has genetics on his side, which gives me reasonable doubt. He probably did use at some point, but he still needs a positive test to prove guilt and not be eligible for the award. But to play devil's advocate, what I heard his work ethic is off the charts, so maybe he was able to live in the weight room and put on the weight. His body was still growing after all, seeing as how he grew two inches from the course of his senior year in HS to his senior year in college.

The AP will also be re-voting on the All-Pro OLB's, so Cushing's 2nd Team All-Pro honor could be lost in the re-vote as well.

[GB12]

We were kind of discussing this in the Packers forum earlier.

Clay Matthews, Sr. - 6'3" 219 lbs - Grandfather - NFL OT/DE in the 50s
Clay Matthews, Jr. - 6'2" 245 lbs - Father - 4 time pro bowl LB
Clay Matthews, III - 6'3" 250 lbs -The one we're talking about - potential DROY
Casey Matthews - 6'2" 235 lbs - Younger Brother - Starting LB at Oregon
Bruce Matthews - 6'5" 305 lbs - Uncle - Hall of Fame center
Kevin Matthews - 6'4" 298 lbs - Cousin - Texas A&M center trying out for the Titans

The family history is very strong in football and his size matches up pretty well with his father and brother. His grandfather was big for his time period, and obviously his uncle and cousin are big. So the genes are there for him to be 250 lbs.

81 pounds is a lot to put on, but over 5 years it's not outrageous. In one offseason between my junior and senior year of high school I put on 34 pounds. Matthews would be 16.2 a year with 4 of them in the USC weight room. I don't think that is unreasonable.

And Matthews body looks pretty natural.

Cushing is jacked and has more muscle in places than he should as shown here.
http://i77.photobucket.com/albums/j74/Blickster/cush.jpg

Matthews on the other hand looks like a football player should
http://blogs.ajc.com/atlanta-falcons-blog/files/2009/03/clay-matthews-jr.jpg


Now honestly I wouldn't be completely shocked if Matthews is on steroids, but I don't think he is.

[bigbluedefense]

I bet half the league is on PEDs.

And I don't trust any freak athletes from Maryland. I'm surprised they haven't gotten busted yet, it's so damn obvious they juice their players.

[tjsunstein]

Matthews should get it. No homer.

[TitanHope]

Adam_Shefter: As it should be. RT @NYPost_NFL: According to AP officials, several voters have already voted Brian Cushing Defensive ROY a second time.

http://twitter.com/Adam_Schefter

:rolleyes:

[Paranoidmoonduck]

It wouldn't shock me if Cushing won again since he just crushed the voting the first time around. That said, I think Byrd should have won it last year and I think it'd send a good message if Cushing didn't hold onto the award.

What Byrd did last year was far more unique for a rookie than what Cushing did. He should get the award this time.

[wonderbredd24]

Why is getting 10 INTs not a bigger deal? I don't understand that... Anthony Henry had 10 his rookie year and didn't get jack and Jairus Byrd had 10 his rookie year and may not get jack for it.

The NFL record for a season is 14 by Dick Lane and a record that is one of those no one sees being broken, but 10 is just a nice season... mind boggling

[umphrey]

It wouldn't shock me if Cushing won again since he just crushed the voting the first time around. That said, I think Byrd should have won it last year and I think it'd send a good message if Cushing didn't hold onto the award.

What Byrd did last year was far more unique for a rookie than what Cushing did. He should get the award this time.

Isn't the entire point of holding a re vote because Cushing is disqualified from winning? Or are voters just saying roids are fine as long as you put up numbers on the field?

[Paranoidmoonduck]

Isn't the entire point of holding a re vote because Cushing is disqualified from winning? Or are voters just saying roids are fine as long as you put up numbers on the field?

No, they are re-voting to give the AP voters a chance to use the new information on Cushing in their decision. He's absolutely still capable of receiving votes.

And whether the NFL has explicitly stated so or not, the league stance on PED's is largely passive. They make the game more exciting, generate money for teams, and keep players on the field. If testing ever catches up the latest drugs and the NFL actually implements that testing, people's minds are going to be blown in regards to how many players test positive.

[bigbluedefense]

No, they are re-voting to give the AP voters a chance to use the new information on Cushing in their decision. He's absolutely still capable of receiving votes.

And whether the NFL has explicitly stated so or not, the league stance on PED's is largely passive. They make the game more exciting, generate money for teams, and keep players on the field. If testing ever catches up the latest drugs and the NFL actually implements that testing, people's minds are going to be blown in regards to how many players test positive.

ding ding ding.

Do people honestly believe athletes have gotten bigger, stronger, and faster than athletes of yesteryear with vitamin water and protein shakes?

[wonderbredd24]

ding ding ding.

Do people honestly believe athletes have gotten bigger, stronger, and faster than athletes of yesteryear with vitamin water and protein shakes?

Define yesteryear. Fred Dean was a hall of famer who smoked and didn't lift weights and he played until 1985

The fact there is no offseason anymore and training has advanced substantially in the last 40 years makes a huge difference, but yes... the other stuff plays its role too.

[TitanHope]

The initial votes are going to be for Cushing since those are the votes from the writers who just don't want to change their vote for whatever reason. The votes afterwards will be much more mixed, seeing as writers would have been tussling between Cushing, Byrd, Matthews, and Orakpo.

I'll hate the message the writers will be saying if they knowingly vote a guy who's been busted for a banned substance during the season in which his performance won the award. I've never been one for the "well, everyone's doing it so *shrug*" arguments for these sorts of things. It was against the rules, and he was caught. I don't see much justification for voting for Cushing again when I see the other rookies as putting up just as impressive seasons.

[soybean]

The initial votes are going to be for Cushing since those are the votes from the writers who just don't want to change their vote for whatever reason. The votes afterwards will be much more mixed, seeing as writers would have been tussling between Cushing, Byrd, Matthews, and Orakpo.

I'll hate the message the writers will be saying if they knowingly vote a guy who's been busted for a banned substance during the season in which his performance won the award. I've never been one for the "well, everyone's doing it so *shrug*" arguments for these sorts of things. It was against the rules, and he was caught. I don't see much justification for voting for Cushing again when I see the other rookies as putting up just as impressive seasons.

yeah but if they're going to retroactively take his award away then why not take away julius pepper's too?

[Brent]

is Lofa going to get Merriman's '05 award?

[bam bam]

I bet half the league is on PEDs.



That's the point I was trying to make. Not specifically Matthews, but I wouldn't be surprised to hear of anyone on PEDs, whether it be Byrd, Orakpo, anybody except a kicker...though Dallas did draft a Linebacker-esque kicker last year if I remember right... from USC dun dun duuunnnn

[MichaelJordanEberle (sabf)]

is Lofa going to get Merriman's '05 award?

The difference is though that Cushing's test happened before this season started. The appeal process kept this under wraps long enough for him to get DROY. There's no concrete evidence that Merriman was juicing in his rookie year.

[TitanHope]

yeah but if they're going to retroactively take his award away then why not take away julius pepper's too?

Good question. I believe the issue came because of Shawne Merrimen when he failed his test as he was on his veteran DPOY run. Jason Taylor ended up winning, and afterwards a rule was implemented than no NFL awards, such as the Pro Bowl, would be given to players who failed their tests. This seems to be the AP setting a precedent for the same actions they'd take for their awards.

Then it begs the question of whether just PED's fall into the award waiving category, or other failed tests? I doubt they'd retract it because of Weed, but the Williamses in Minny are in a situation where they failed because of the Star Caps that they use to maintain their weight, since it also contains ingrediants that mask PEDs. Julius Peppers tested in the same category of the Williamses with Ephedra, which is what he got busted with his rookie year.

BlindSite delved into all this earlier. Cushing and Merriman (although, I believe Merriman's failed test was during his sophomore season, not his rookie season) tested positive for the "performance-enhancing" section of the substance abuse policy, which PED's like steroids, HGH, and other non-steroidals fall into. Peppers and the Williamses tested positive for the masking agents, which fall under the "related substances" portion. The "other" portion consists of weed and I assume painkillers. Not sure if amphetamines falls under PED's or other.

So in essence the reason why Cush should be punished and not Peppers is because he got busted for PED's while Pep got busted for masking agents.

Although, Cushing is saying the substance he took was non-steroidal, but he hasn't stated which non-steroidal substance he took and that information isn't available to the public, but it still falls under performance-enhancing so it doesn't matter much except for if he wanted to use the "tainted supplement" card or something.

[soybean]

I personally think that they should let him keep his award, BUT have a big ass asterisk mark next to his name.

[CC.SD]

I personally think that they should let him keep his award, BUT have a big ass asterisk mark next to his name.

Asterisks are apparently reserved for Spygate references. Who knew?

[Addict]

That's the point I was trying to make. Not specifically Matthews, but I wouldn't be surprised to hear of anyone on PEDs, whether it be Byrd, Orakpo, anybody except a kicker...though Dallas did draft a Linebacker-esque kicker last year if I remember right... from USC dun dun duuunnnn

....bueler?

anyway off a story that came up on PFT, Texans beat writer wants Cushing to say what he took... but that's not the story!

Look at his name, it's glorious.

http://twitter.com/McClain_on_NFL/status/13757238129

[FUNBUNCHER]

Of the three, Cushing/Matthews/Mays, Taylor is the only one I would be mildly shocked if it came out that he wasn't anything but natural.

Mays was a skinny looking 210-215# true frosh at USC; a 15-20# muscle weight gain used to be considered 'normal' for a drug free college football player.
(Most college lineman who gain 40-70# in college put on muscle AND a generous amount of bodyfat.)

As for the genetics argument for Clay Jr, HOF OG Russ Grimm's son Cody played for Va Tech and maxed out was a 5'10, 205# safety/rover.

Helluva football player, but he didn't inherit his dad's 6'3, 300# size.

An 80 pound weight of pure muscle in 4 years,( senior year HS to RS sophomore year at USC) is not 'normal', no matter what your genetic potential might be.
BTW, Matthews admits to gaining 45# of muscle weight, (up from 165# to 210), between his junior and senior year of HS.
NO protein shakes on the market will put that kind of mass on you in less than 12 months.

OF course, steroids aren't going to make you grow two inches or become an extremely agile, athletic athlete at 245#. But not for one minute do I believe Matthews put on all that weight in such a relatively short period of time with 'clean supplements'.
Based on your genetics, however, PEDs do affect every athlete differently who takes them, which is very significant.
IF Clay was on something at some point, I doubt he currently is now, or has been for at least a couple of years, and I bet he had a much easier time keeping his weight gain because of his genetic legacy.

That's why even if they both used, I don't put Matthews and Cushing in the same category, in part because of Clay's intensity and athleticism on the field, ( I just like his overall game better than Cushing's) and because I think whatever he did was a fraction of what many pro athletes have used.

Clay is a very lean looking 245#, and IMO he took something to get his size and strength level up to where it needed to be so he could compete for playing time at USC, the rest, the 'football player' part, he did all on his own.

IMO he took PEDs the 'right way'; did a cycle or two, once in HS(!! - still bad!!) and one more time in college, got off of them totally and worked his ass off the rest of the time.

As a rule, I usually come down hard on NFL players busted taking PEDs, but I don't get bent out of shape about it because a little scrutiny of the NFL game leads one to believe PEDs are the NFL's dirty little 'not so secret' secret.

It's not like in baseball, where PEDs can impact one or two critical variables for an already solid hitter, bat speed and power, and make them a HOFer.

PEDs in the NFL allow you to make an NFL roster, maybe become a starter and extend your career, but they so far haven't produced 2700 yard rushers at RB, WRs who catch 1800yards/25 TDs or DEs who routinely put up 25-30 sacks.

Players may attempt to change the game to gain a competitive advantage, yet the game remains the same, because football is still the ultimate team sport.

A stud juice monkey can still be neutralized by a football T-E-A-M, for the most part.

And outstanding football skills for one's position, as we all know, trump superior athleticism almost every time.

[diabsoule]

According to Schefter:

Brian Cushing tested positive for slightly elevated levels of hCG (a non-steroidal substance produced naturally by the body).
it is in seminal fluid and slightly elevated levels can be discovered in the event that a test occurs soon after ejaculation.

[K Train]

so he basically just got his dick sucked in the waiting room of the test facility.

if its non steroidal im calling shenanigans on this suspension and revotr

[diabsoule]

However, while hCG can be produced naturally, it is on banned lists because it is known agent during steroid cycling.

[K Train]

i mean i get that but theres other substances that are in the body during steroid cycling, how the **** can they pin point him on roids when its a chemical produced by the human body naturally? i would think thcey need more than that, maybe that gives them reason to have additional tests but imo thats not even close to concrete enough

[Monomach]

i mean i get that but theres other substances that are in the body during steroid cycling, how the **** can they pin point him on roids when its a chemical produced by the human body naturally? i would think thcey need more than that, maybe that gives them reason to have additional tests but imo thats not even close to concrete enough

hcg is what juicers take to keep their balls from shrinking. There's a natural range and Cushing was out of it.

It's not something that is super variable (unless you're pregnant). Otherwise, there'd be guys with giant 10lb nuts (not talking about poor sonofabitches with elephantitis; that's unrelated).

By your standard, no one taking HGH could ever get suspended.

[MichaelJordanEberle (sabf)]

It's not like there wasn't a lengthy appeals process here. He failed this test before last season. If there was a natural explanation for the elevated levels, his appeal would have been accepted.

[yourfavestoner]

HCG is the same **** Manny Ramirez got suspended for. So he was either coming off a cycle of steroids (makes sense considering the timing of the failed test) or he's trying to have a baby.


However, in the days before the hearing, the union turned over Ramirez's medical records -- and they turned out to be a boon for MLB.
Within the records was a prescription written for the drug human chorionic gonadotropin (hCG) -- No. 55 on the list of banned performance-enhancing substances in the policy. The drug is mainly used for female fertility issues, but it is best known among male steroid users as a substance that can help kick-start the body's production of natural testosterone, which is stymied when using synthetic testosterone (aka steroids).

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=4159870

[umphrey]

I'm just going to copy my post from the Packers forum, because I hate to see Clay's name get dragged through the mud for absolutely no reason at all

What worries me is that he had easy access to them and had to turn them down, maybe more than once.

He is known for spending a lot of time in the weight room.
(You redshirted and were there a long time, so was it not just the weight room but you hit some growth spurts there too?)
Matthews: Yeah, absolutely. Fortunately and I guess unfortunately, Matthews are just late bloomers. The same with my dad and my uncle Bruce, we all going into college, we put on a tremendous amount of weight. It was just a little late in the recruiting process so you have to walk on here and there and make a name for yourself. That's what I had to do. You can talk to anyone at that program and they'll say I'm one of the hardest workers and I'm going to be in the weight room. Not just in the weight room, but on the practice field, watching film, game film, and they'll tell you the type of character that I possess.Read more here (http://www.jsonline.com/blogs/sports/93192324.html), he addresses other issues such as the weight gain information being spread around being somewhat inaccurate.

If you believe the pictures, they definitely will tell you he isn't a juicer. Lets look at some comparisons:

CM3:
http://pics.livejournal.com/molivarez/pic/0001edey/s320x240


David Boston:
http://phoenix.fanster.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2008/06/davidboston.jpg

Notice the weird lumps in his arms that almost look like tumors

Brian Cushing:
http://i29.tinypic.com/de6xb9.jpg

Notice the area above the armpit where the is a big muscle bulge, how did that get there?

Shawne Merriman:
http://www.thesunblog.com/sports/merrimanflex.jpg

Look at his spinal cord and where it runs up to the giant crater in his neck, indicating enormous muscle growth across the entire back

Barry Bonds:
http://pcgamereview.net/articles/videogametrainers/barrybonds.jpg

His head looks like a balloon for one and there's that strange muscle growth right on his elbow

[K Train]

hcg is what juicers take to keep their balls from shrinking. There's a natural range and Cushing was out of it.

It's not something that is super variable (unless you're pregnant). Otherwise, there'd be guys with giant 10lb nuts (not talking about poor sonofabitches with elephantitis; that's unrelated).

By your standard, no one taking HGH could ever get suspended.

i know what HGC is, ive taken it. its post cycle treatment, i get that. Im saying that testing positive for SLIGHTLY elevated levels of it like his report states shouldnt be enough to suspend him or take away the award, all it should do is give reasonable casue for further testing

[MichaelJordanEberle (sabf)]

Are you actually comparing a relaxed guy in a loose t-shirt to three guys who are flexing and one in underarmour?

[yourfavestoner]

I think you're being woefully naive if you think there's absolutely no chance he's ever done them in his life.

Also, I don't see the tumor like growths that you're talking about.

And Matthews' head and jawline are just as massive as Cushing and Bonds.

I'm not saying that I think that he did. I'm just pointing out that it's not outside the realm of possibility and to flat out deny it completely is, like I said, just being naive.

[yourfavestoner]

Are you actually comparing a relaxed guy in a loose t-shirt to three guys who are flexing and one in underarmour?

Exactly. And then quoting the person in question and relaying those quotes like they were spoken by Jesus himself.

Hey, Brian Cushing swore up and down that his size were the results of super hard work and taking good care of his body and eating supplements. Most of these guys do. Do you expect them to admit that they took PEDs or something?

[umphrey]

i know what HGC is, ive taken it. its post cycle treatment, i get that. Im saying that testing positive for SLIGHTLY elevated levels of it like his report states shouldnt be enough to suspend him or take away the award, all it should do is give reasonable casue for further testing

I'm pretty sure "slightly" in this sense is analogous to we "slightly" nuked Japan.

Are you actually comparing a relaxed guy in a loose t-shirt to three guys who are flexing and one in underarmour?I was actually trying to be as objective as possible and I'll show you the original picture I had for Clay Matthews III. I looked for a different one and was disappointed with the one I went with in that post, but I didn't think it fair to use this one because he is in the process of a power clean and it's even worse to compare a guy working out, literally lifting weights at the time, to other guys who aren't.

But go ahead and compare this one. I reached the same conclusion. They are just pictures anyway. Don't mean anything, just a drop in a bucket that is your opinion.

If you can find a more comparable picture of CM3, that would be great, I was just kind of lazy.

http://www.trojanwire.com/Clay%20Matthews%20bulk.jpg

[FUNBUNCHER]

These guys have a powerful player's union; the NFL still only takes random urine specimens, not blood samples like USADA, ( U.S. Anti-Doping Agency).

I bet Cushing's blood glows in the dark!!LOL

[MichaelJordanEberle (sabf)]

Exactly. And then quoting the person in question and relaying those quotes like they were spoken by Jesus himself.

Hey, Brian Cushing swore up and down that his size were the results of super hard work and taking good care of his body and eating supplements. Most of these guys do. Do you expect them to admit that they took PEDs or something?

ding ding ding.

Do people honestly believe athletes have gotten bigger, stronger, and faster than athletes of yesteryear with vitamin water and protein shakes?

I think these two quotes go hand in hand. When pressed, everyone will say yeah, a big percentage of guys are juicing. But nobody wants to admit that one of their guys is juicing. Unless they've failed a test, no one's favourite player is a juice monkey.

[umphrey]

With the countless variables in play, you can't decisively say much at all about the total percentage of players juicing. It's somewhere between 5% and 50% would be what you can narrow it down to I guess...It also depends on how you define juicing-1) Taking a PED ever 2) Using PEDs regularly 3) Took them in the past but not currently - etc.

[yourfavestoner]

With the countless variables in play, you can't decisively say much at all about the total percentage of players juicing. It's somewhere between 5% and 50% would be what you can narrow it down to I guess...It also depends on how you define juicing-1) Taking a PED ever 2) Using PEDs regularly 3) Took them in the past but not currently - etc.

Exactly.

I'm just firmly in the boat of "wtf am I going to do about it?" Like Funbuncher said, the NFL's testing policies are nowhere near as stringent as they'd lead you to believe. I'm not a moral crusader nor am I on a witchhunt to find all PED users. I don't even really care.

People have been looking for ways to cheat going all the way back to the ancient Olympic games. Steroids are what's in right now. 10 years from now it'll be something else.

[Fico]

A source familiar with the Brian Cushing case has revealed more details to ESPN NFL Insider Adam Schefter. A positive test occurred in early September, and Cushing tested negative for any substance twice before he was ever alerted that he had initially tested positive (both within days of the initial positive test). And after being alerted of the positive test Brian was tested randomly numerous times throughout the season and never tested positive. In addition, the test was positive for slightly elevated levels of hCG (a non-steroidal substance - hCG is a hormone produced naturally by the body). The level that he tested positive for was so low that it would not have been considered a "positive" test even a year ago.

ten characters

[T-RICH49]

wow if that's the case then this is a bogus suspension and can't believe the NFL upheld it

[FuzzyGopher]

HCG is used for post cycle therapy. Basically when you take steroids it stops the natural production of testosterone in your body. When you stop taking steroids your body now has super low test levels instead of super high levels, and this will wipe away any of your gains and then some if your levels don't get back to normal quick. HCG stimulates the production of testosterone bring your levels back up to normal very fast.

[K Train]

but is that reason enough to suspend him? imo all that should lead to is further testing or future monitoring

[yourfavestoner]

but is that reason enough to suspend him? imo all that should lead to is further testing or future monitoring

Dude, there was a suspension AND a lengthy appeals process. The NFL and Players Union agreed on what "normal" levels are for different chemicals your body produces. You cannot get suspended if you are within the level of what has been agreed upon between the league AND union. Obviously, he had elevated levels or else he would have gotten off during the appeal.

The league is not allowed to talk about it, so this "source" is likely somebody in Cushing's camp. What do you think they're gonna say?

[wonderbredd24]

but is that reason enough to suspend him? imo all that should lead to is further testing or future monitoring

No, if he's a pregnant woman.

[datchapin]

Here's a question. Why wasn't the suspension announced when it happened? The Williams were announced right after it happened. We were all aware of their situation when it occured. Cushings test occured in September, if that's true how long did it really take them to notify him? He put in the application for an appeal in Febuary. Not November or December. It was then denied just a few days ago and that's when everything started happening.

So my question is WTF NFL. Why the hell wouldn't you issue the suspension right after the positive test?

Another thing, the thing with the pictures, I've met Cushing and he's not that huge. Also his training regime is well documented. He is very meticolous about his diet and its hard to believe that everyone "knew" this after all the precedents that have been set in the past. Someone mentioned Matthews ealier and how his name is getting dragged in the mud. How is that not the case with Cushing?

Another thing is that once sample A as in the sample the NFL tested is positive the person in question has five days to turn in a sample B done by another phisician. If it's a question of HCG levels then how can one turn in another sample when the levels naturally fluctuate, and the substance in question will always be present? I'm not saying I know if he did or didn't, but c'mon. This whole thing is just frustrating. The timeline and info. being put out just doesn't all mesh. In cases like this the confidentiality the NFL speaks of should be tossed out the window and they should let the info be known. Because, really, they should be able to say specifically what they are suspending someone for.

[FuzzyGopher]

Unless he has cancer he shouldn't really have any traces of HCG in his system. And he was notified in September of the suspension, but I believe the appeals process took 8 months and finally concluded in February. And due the players being in a union, I doubt the whole confidentiality thing will ever change. It's medical information and I personally think it should be kept confidential.

[Paranoidmoonduck]

Although I'm rarely a very big fan of his work, I thought Don Banks wrote a really smart critique (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2010/writers/don_banks/05/11/cushing.revote/index.html) of the re-vote.

[MattC]

I'm waiting to find out what Cushing took to make a judgment. The NFL is pretty hardcore on their drug policy. Even legal, over-the-counter products are banned (see: Williams). IMO, if the product was legal but on the banned list I cut the player some slack. If the product is illegal (HGH etc.) then throw the bum out.

[FuzzyGopher]

Just to let you know, there are over the counter supplements that are basically steroids and will make you test positive for steroids. Nutraceuticals are very poorly regulated and they can take a while to be tested and classified as schedule 3 drugs, so just because they are otc it doesn't mean they won't eventually be illegal or make you test positive on a steroid test.

[FUNBUNCHER]

When you go on an anabolic cycle, there are so many specific dosage steps that have to be taken throughout the process; what combination of steroids and synthetic hormones to take that maximize muscle gain and strength, additional hormones that have to be taken to jumpstart your normal hormone production once you come off a cycle, diet, weight training regimen, and what legal supplements to include to preserve your gains.

Many pro BBs are assisted by a medical professional when they're on a cycle to manage all the steps involved in the process, to minimize the damage to their liver, pancreas and heart.

Cushing got pinched for HCG because the only medical reason for a normal man to have elevated levels of this ovulation hormone in their urine is to stimulate testosterone production that has more than likely been suppressed from an anabolic cycle.

HCG is the equivalent of walking in on your roommate, see white smoke hanging in the air and a sticky resin bowl on the coffee table next to a hot Bic lighter, but you can't find the weed.

No question Cushing isn't the first, ( or only!!) nor will he be the last, but IMO he needs to forget about the supplements and work on those aspects of his game that don't involve sticking a needle in his ass.

To me, the only real interest I have in this whole charade is when players get caught lying about the fact they're on the gear.

Who remembers how much Ray Lewis weighed when he came into the league in '96?? 230? 235? Lewis has gotten his weight up to just under 260# for several years in his career, his weight now is somewhere around 250.

(Not accusing him, just that there are dozens of cases like this in the NFL; guys who seemingly can gain as much muscle weight as they want, as fast as they want to).

I don't think there are guys in the NFL who are on this stuff all the time, but I do think a significant number of players have gone on something at some point to bring their bodies up to an 'NFL level'.

Maybe it's not right, but that's the way it is.

So, if you have a son one day who's a D1 recruit and he's thinking about going on 'something' to prepare himself for the college game, and maybe beyond, what do you tell him, honestly??

Die like a king?? Or live like a pig??

[yourfavestoner]

Here's a question. Why wasn't the suspension announced when it happened? The Williams were announced right after it happened. We were all aware of their situation when it occured. Cushings test occured in September, if that's true how long did it really take them to notify him? He put in the application for an appeal in Febuary. Not November or December. It was then denied just a few days ago and that's when everything started happening.

So my question is WTF NFL. Why the hell wouldn't you issue the suspension right after the positive test?

Another thing, the thing with the pictures, I've met Cushing and he's not that huge. Also his training regime is well documented. He is very meticolous about his diet and its hard to believe that everyone "knew" this after all the precedents that have been set in the past. Someone mentioned Matthews ealier and how his name is getting dragged in the mud. How is that not the case with Cushing?

Another thing is that once sample A as in the sample the NFL tested is positive the person in question has five days to turn in a sample B done by another phisician. If it's a question of HCG levels then how can one turn in another sample when the levels naturally fluctuate, and the substance in question will always be present? I'm not saying I know if he did or didn't, but c'mon. This whole thing is just frustrating. The timeline and info. being put out just doesn't all mesh. In cases like this the confidentiality the NFL speaks of should be tossed out the window and they should let the info be known. Because, really, they should be able to say specifically what they are suspending someone for.

Yeah, that was Roger Clemens' and Bill Romanowski's excuses too.

[K Train]

he retains the award...good for him

https://twitter.com/ChronicleTexans/status/13865119337

[Complex]

ding ding ding.

Do people honestly believe athletes have gotten bigger, stronger, and faster than athletes of yesteryear with vitamin water and protein shakes?

Yeah, Back in the day it was rare for athletes to run a mile under 6 or 7 minutes( I forget it) now a bunch of regular people can run a mile under 6 or 7 minutes.(they talked about it on ESPN)

[superman]

i'm not sticking up for cushing, but i've always thought about the athletes being so much better these days

back in the 40's, i'm pretty sure most of this board could have played pro football

[CC.SD]

Yeah, Back in the day it was rare for athletes to run a mile under 6 or 7 minutes( I forget it) now a bunch of regular people can run a mile under 6 or 7 minutes.(they talked about it on ESPN)

I find this a little ridic. I mean a mile isn't that far. People were probably just really lazy back then.

[wonderbredd24]

i'm not sticking up for cushing, but i've always thought about the athletes being so much better these days

back in the 40's, i'm pretty sure most of this board could have played pro football
Jim Thorpe was the greatest athlete of the 20th century

[superman]

Jim Thorpe was the greatest athlete of the 20th century

against his competition

what would he do today though?

[wonderbredd24]

against his competition

what would he do today though?

Have access to modern training and everything else and still dominate.

Marion Motley and Jim Brown in today's NFL would still be 2 of the greatest running backs in history

[superman]

it's a good debate that will never be settled

[K Train]

Have access to modern training and everything else and still dominate.

Marion Motley and Jim Brown in today's NFL would still be 2 of the greatest running backs in history

yeah just like jack lambert wouldnt absolutely get eaten alive 35+years later.
:rolleyes:

[wonderbredd24]

yeah just like jack lambert wouldnt absolutely get eaten alive 35+years later.
:rolleyes:

Marion Motley was 240lbs in the 40s-50s as a running back. He'd be fine in the NFL now.

And Jim Brown is simply the greatest of all time

[K Train]

more like the greatest of his time, his legacy will live on forever and will be known as one of the greats but 9/10 times players from the 60s,70s, and 80s wouldnt make modern rosters.

i would say the only exception from the 70s steelers would be joe greene just cause he was a mammoth man and liked to hurt people. thinking jim brown could play now isnt realistic, dlineman would chase him down with ease

[wonderbredd24]

more like the greatest of his time, his legacy will live on forever and will be known as one of the greats but 9/10 times players from the 60s,70s, and 80s wouldnt make modern rosters.

i would say the only exception from the 70s steelers would be joe greene just cause he was a mammoth man and liked to hurt people. thinking jim brown could play now isnt realistic, dlineman would chase him down with ease
/thread

LOL

[K Train]

i guess browns fans have to hold on with all their might to their best legacy that happened in the 60s

[wonderbredd24]

i guess browns fans have to hold on with all their might to their best legacy that happened in the 60s

Clearly, you've A. lost your mind or B. just don't have a clue what you're talking about and I'm gonna go with B.

Hall of Fame RB/WR Bobby Mitchell was a track star in college and Jim Brown could beat him in the 100 yard dash. In addition to having power and agility, Jim Brown had incredible speed.

Jim Brown is the greatest running back of all time and the only person who even has an argument of being maybe a better football player than Jim Brown was Sammy Baugh.

But yes, I'm just desperately holding onto the legacy of the 60's

[K Train]

incredible speed back then=mediocre speed now

not gonna pretend i was alive in the 60s, but i dont know how this can be argued...whether its steroids or just people being bigger, or just nutritional/medical advancements. even regular people are alot bigger and stronger than people in the 50s and 60s...let alone pro athletes who do it fo a living

[yourfavestoner]

more like the greatest of his time, his legacy will live on forever and will be known as one of the greats but 9/10 times players from the 60s,70s, and 80s wouldnt make modern rosters.

i would say the only exception from the 70s steelers would be joe greene just cause he was a mammoth man and liked to hurt people. thinking jim brown could play now isnt realistic, dlineman would chase him down with ease

I really don't even know what to say to this, other than it may be one of the dumbest things I've ever read on this messageboard.

[K Train]

I really don't even know what to say to this, other than it may be one of the dumbest things I've ever read on this messageboard.

thats fine, you dont have to agree with me. i have to deal with ancient steeler fans all the time that say bradshaw and lambert would just come in and dominate in any era when i just think todays athlete>>>>>>>yesterdays

[wonderbredd24]

incredible speed back then=mediocre speed now

not gonna pretend i was alive in the 60s, but i dont know how this can be argued...whether its steroids or just people being bigger, or just nutritional/medical advancements. even regular people are alot bigger and stronger than people in the 50s and 60s...let alone pro athletes who do it fo a living
And he'd have every single benefit that those athletes do now, except he had unbelievable God given gifts, so he'd be even stronger and faster than he was then.

5.22 yards per carry (highest in history)
Only running back ever to average over 100 yards per game
Led the league in rushing every year he was in the league save one
Never missed a game due to injury in the era of hatchet men
Set virtually every record he could before he retired
3 MVPs

Barry Sanders is the second greatest back of all time and Sanders' dad says emphatically that Jim Brown is the greatest ever.

Hell, SI had him on the cover of the magazine in a Raiders uniform in the 80's talking about a potential comeback when he was drafted in 1957 for God's sake

He's also the greatest LaCrosse player in history

[K Train]

And he'd have every single benefit that those athletes do now, except he had unbelievable God given gifts, so he'd be even stronger and faster than he was then.

5.22 yards per carry (highest in history)
Only running back ever to average over 100 yards per game
Led the league in rushing every year he was in the league save one
Never missed a game due to injury in the era of hatchet men
Set virtually every record he could before he retired
3 MVPs

Barry Sanders is the second greatest back of all time and Sanders' dad says emphatically that Jim Brown is the greatest ever.

Hell, SI had him on the cover of the magazine in a Raiders uniform in the 80's talking about a potential comeback for God's sake

maybe so, maybe every benefit todays athletes have would really make a difference for him and he would step in without missing a beat, who knows. i think those stats are because he was really a man among boys back then.

i mean we could go on forever, i see your points i really do, it will go round and round. like i dont think dick lebeau would stand a chance in todays league, i love the guy he was a great player and is a brilliant coach but he really wouldnt find a place in the 2000s

anyway im glad cushing got to keep his award, but it doesnt matter....hes still suspended and its not like the NFL had anything to do with the award

[yourfavestoner]

thats fine, you dont have to agree with me. i have to deal with ancient steeler fans all the time that say bradshaw and lambert would just come in and dominate in any era when i just think todays athlete>>>>>>>yesterdays

Then you severely underrate how exceptional both of those guys were. And guys from the past in general.

Bradshaw was an amazing athlete, on par with John Elway. He was 6'3 215 lbs, rocket arm, could move very well for his size, and called all of his own plays. Lambert was 6'4 220 lbs. He and Jack Ham basically created the "Tampa Two" style linebacker that you know today. He was Brian Urlacher before there was Brian Urlacher. Just like Ham was Derrick Brooks before Derrick Brooks even picked up a football.

Truth be told, it was much, much harder to make an NFL roster back then than it is now. For one, there were fewer teams and talent wasn't as diluted as it is now. Secondly, and more importantly, teams didn't have a limit of how many guys they could bring into camp. When you get to choose the best 53 guys out of a pool of 150 or 200 instead of 73, you're going to have a much more talented team.

Are guys of yesteryear as big as players today? Height-wise there's little to no difference. Players today are a little heavier, but that's to be expected since they train full time and have dedicated kinesiologists and scientists running their workout regimens. Put any great player of the 60s 70s or 80s in a mordern day NFL training program and they would be just as heavy.

Guys that play today would have much more trouble playing in the 60s or 70s. Can you see Peyton Manning playing in Johnny Unitas' day, where the quarterback was basically blugeoned to death every game? We're talking about a guy who goes down to avoid sacks playing in an era where NO player was protected and violent hits occured often after the ball was thrown or the whistle blew. How well do you think Marvin Harrison or Randy Moss would really fare with Dick Lane clotheslining them off of the line of scrimmage?

[FUNBUNCHER]

Jim Brown was 6'2, 230# and basically NEVER LIFTED WEIGHTS!!!

To think an 18 year old Brown at a BCS school for 4 years wouldn't develop into a monster NFL prospect in really out there in neverland.

Joe Greene was 6'4, 275# in his prime, barely 5 pounds bigger than JPP(!!), yet for some reason you give him the benefit of the doubt he would still be a dominant player, although the biggest changes in the pro game are in the trenches.

There are several players from the golden age of pro football, (50s and 60s), who if they came out of today's top college programs, would still be great.

Please don't disrespect the history of the game and those who've played it simply because YOU have very little idea about about what these guys accomplished.

Remember, in 100 years, the players you regard as alltimers will be called by some snot noser in the 22nd century as overrated!!LOL

[K Train]

Jim Brown was 6'2, 230# and basically NEVER LIFTED WEIGHTS!!!

To think an 18 year old Brown at a BCS school for 4 years wouldn't develop into a monster NFL prospect in really out there in neverland.

Joe Greene was 6'4, 275# in his prime, barely 5 pounds bigger than JPP(!!), yet for some reason you give him the benefit of the doubt he would still be a dominant player, although the biggest changes in the pro game are in the trenches.

There are several players from the golden age of pro football, (50s and 60s), who if they came out of today's top college programs, would still be great.

Please don't disrespect the history of the game and those who've played it simply because YOU have very little idea about about what these guys accomplished.

Remember, in 100 years, the players you regard as alltimers will be called by some snot noser in the 22nd century as overrated!!LOL
i kinda thought greene was over 300 by quite a bit...again, wasnt alive back then

[K Train]

Then you severely underrate how exceptional both of those guys were. And guys from the past in general.

Bradshaw was an amazing athlete, on par with John Elway. He was 6'3 215 lbs, rocket arm, could move very well for his size, and called all of his own plays. Lambert was 6'4 220 lbs. He and Jack Ham basically created the "Tampa Two" style linebacker that you know today. He was Brian Urlacher before there was Brian Urlacher. Just like Ham was Derrick Brooks before Derrick Brooks even picked up a football.

Truth be told, it was much, much harder to make an NFL roster back then than it is now. For one, there were fewer teams and talent wasn't as diluted as it is now. Secondly, and more importantly, teams didn't have a limit of how many guys they could bring into camp. When you get to choose the best 53 guys out of a pool of 150 or 200 instead of 73, you're going to have a much more talented team.

Are guys of yesteryear as big as players today? Height-wise there's little to no difference. Players today are a little heavier, but that's to be expected since they train full time and have dedicated kinesiologists and scientists running their workout regimens. Put any great player of the 60s 70s or 80s in a mordern day NFL training program and they would be just as heavy.

Guys that play today would have much more trouble playing in the 60s or 70s. Can you see Peyton Manning playing in Johnny Unitas' day, where the quarterback was basically blugeoned to death every game? We're talking about a guy who goes down to avoid sacks playing in an era where NO player was protected and violent hits occured often after the ball was thrown or the whistle blew. How well do you think Marvin Harrison or Randy Moss would really fare with Dick Lane clotheslining them off of the line of scrimmage?
i mean good post, valid points across the board but i just dont buy that lambert and bradshaw would do **** in todays game...im not disrespecting the history of the game or their "golden years", but could it be that you guys are underestimating just how much better athletes players today are? sure theres a select few that might still be great, jim brown may be one of those but i have a hard time thinking jim brown would break as many tackles against todays defenses.

and i know that it was way more violent, id ******* love it if it was like that today but these violent hits were coming from guys that you could mistake for a mailman or grocery store clerk during the offseason, theres a reason those rules changed when players became full time training athletes, people would die if that **** went down today

[LizardState]

ESPN just reported that Cushing will retain his AP Writers MVP Award. Mort went through a way too long explanation about why he abstained, but enough writers allowed him to keep it.

There are just too many nebulous conditions put on his failed drug test, the fact it was left over from Sept. 2009 made me suspicious. Based on what I see now it seems like Cushing is getting a raw deal with the suspension.

Sounds like he took something to restore his testosterone level that is often taken after an athlete has taken a performance enhancing drug, but took no banned substance he knew of, & if the NFL can't enforce a suspension at the time of the alleged bad test or even within the same season they shouldn't be allowed to retroactively enforce it.

[Bob Sanders Dreadlock]

I do not discredit browns legacy but todays athletes are born just as big, fast and strong. The overall athletes and pure physical freaks didn't exist as much as they do now. The league was a lot more "white" then with not all blacks getting the same opportunity to succeed. Kid's were not coming out of the ghettos to play football. The natural physical attributes he was born with today would be considered average for a top level athlete.

[yourfavestoner]

i mean good post, valid points across the board but i just dont buy that lambert and bradshaw would do **** in todays game...im not disrespecting the history of the game or their "golden years", but could it be that you guys are underestimating just how much better athletes players today are? sure theres a select few that might still be great, jim brown may be one of those but i have a hard time thinking jim brown would break as many tackles against todays defenses.

and i know that it was way more violent, id ******* love it if it was like that today but these violent hits were coming from guys that you could mistake for a mailman or grocery store clerk during the offseason, theres a reason those rules changed when players became full time training athletes, people would die if that **** went down today

I think you're overestimating just how much better athletes they are. Bradshaw is just as big as today's quarterbacks, has just as strong of an arm, and is just as athletic and mobile. What other physical attribute is he missing? Coming out of La Tech, he was the type of prospect that NFLDCers get boners over and generally overrate because he was such a damned perfect physical speciman for a QB.

Just watch this video: xoxJ00HKLTI

Look man, humans didn't evolve at superspeed over the past 40 years to become super athletes today. The difference is size between yesterday's athletes and today are variuables such as: chemicals in diet (in short, our foods today are littered with all kinds of growth horomones and chemicals) and sports training becoming an exact science. That's it. If you take Terry Bradshaw or Jim Brown and move their birthday up twenty years, they'd be just as freakishly athletic, except they'd have modern training and supplement advantages. That's pretty much the only difference.

And they started changing the rules in the 70s. Why? Because Jack Tatum broke Darryl Stingley's neck and the NFL realized they couldn't have guys this athletic playing such a violent game anymore.

[yourfavestoner]

I do not discredit browns legacy but todays athletes are born just as big, fast and strong. The overall athletes and pure physical freaks didn't exist as much as they do now. The league was a lot more "white" then with not all blacks getting the same opportunity to succeed. Kid's were not coming out of the ghettos to play football. The natural physical attributes he was born with today would be considered average for a top level athlete.

If Jim Brown were born today, he would have been training to be a professional athlete by the age of 3, like most wunderkids are these days, so he'd be even MORE of a freak athlete. He'd be enrolled in NJB and AYSO and Lane Kiffen would be offering him scholarships before his mom even **** him out of her womb.

[K Train]

**** him out of her womb.

please tell me thats the S word..i lol'd

[yourfavestoner]

Yup, that is definitely the 's' word.

[Bob Sanders Dreadlock]

If Jim Brown were born today, he would have been training to be a professional athlete by the age of 3, like most wunderkids are these days, so he'd be even MORE of a freak athlete. He'd be enrolled in NJB and AYSO and Lane Kiffen would be offering him scholarships before his mom even **** him out of her womb.

In today's world i could see him being a Stephen Jackson which is a big complement. Would he transcend the game and replicate what he did back then? I do not think he would. Is there proof of a legit Jim Brown 40 or 100 time? It would be interesting to see how it compares to today. Looking at some of the defenders he played he was as big or bigger than a lot of them. The mario williams and julius peppers of today would cripple him.

[Saints-Tigers]

Jim Brown looks like he could play right now.

Guys like Chris Johnson can take 350+ carries, but Jim Brown would be crippled.

This board is sad, lol.

[yourfavestoner]

In today's world i could see him being a Stephen Jackson which is a big complement. Would he transcend the game and replicate what he did back then? I do not think he would. Is there proof of a legit Jim Brown 40 or 100 time? It would be interesting to see how it compares to today. Looking at some of the defenders he played he was as big or bigger than a lot of them. The mario williams and julius peppers of today would cripple him.

He was 6'2 232, so he was already Jackson's size despite playing in an era were weightlifting was considered bad for your body. So put him in today's age of horomone-tampered food, scientific training programs, and supplements and you've got a back whose probably in the 6'2 245 range and runs around a 4.5.

I'm trying to think of a comparison, but there really isn't one. Maybe if you crossed Walter Peyton with Earl Campbell. That's how good he was and what kind of athlete he was.

[datchapin]

This topic deserves it's own thread. Very cool to see that Bradshaw vid.